From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 1: 4:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B003D37B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id f9S942j03587; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:04:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/6) with ESMTP id f9S941o03583; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:04:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA32557; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:04:03 +0100 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f9S953J40326; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:05:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:04:59 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Josef Karthauser Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 09:01:57PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk): Hi! > It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a > clean API; What is your definition of a clean API? > and should be split into several, or rely on others. Each library can be interfaced on its own. - file access (including FTP/HTTP fetch, MD5 and ZIP interface) - database stuff - UI layer - package library - disk (interface to libdisk etc) there are some dependencies, though: e.g. the package library needs the database lib, for obvious reasons. Btw: The abstraction of the place to store the package db information (you mentioned, e.g. Oracle instead of a local directory) should be trivial, since everything is handled via calls to functions of the database lib. Even more, you are using a Database object (C++), so it's very easy to just write a SQL interfacing Database object. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 4:23:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE90437B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D191D169; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:23:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:23:14 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:04:59 +0100 Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk): > > Hi! > >> It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a >> clean API; > > What is your definition of a clean API? One which is independent of all consumers, and is also independent of all possible backends. >> and should be split into several, or rely on others. > > Each library can be interfaced on its own. > - file access (including FTP/HTTP fetch, MD5 and ZIP interface) > - database stuff > - UI layer > - package library > - disk (interface to libdisk etc) > > there are some dependencies, though: e.g. the package library needs the > database lib, for obvious reasons. > > Btw: The abstraction of the place to store the package db information > (you mentioned, e.g. Oracle instead of a local directory) should be > trivial, since everything is handled via calls to functions of > the database lib. Even more, you are using a Database object (C++), > so it's very easy to just write a SQL interfacing Database object. If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with package formats. It should only need to call the API that knows how to install packages. Those packages need not necessarily be in FreeBSD format (either old or new) but could be in any number of different formats and pulled from any number of different repositories. The API would take care of the particalar package format and register all the relevant information into the chosen datastore, but consumers of the API would know nothing about any of this. To do that in libh you'd basically have to implement the sort of API we've been talking about here, but the API should be designed so that it is also pluggable into other applications. It makes more sense to develop it as a separate project, with libh as a consumer, than to develop it as part of libh, so that there is no risk of it having any dependencies on libh or it's design being overly influenced by the specific requirements of libh. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 5:19:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3CC37B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 30E0415E; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:19:05 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:19:05 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Alexander Langer Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028131905.A3223@tao.org.uk> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de>; from alex@big.endian.de on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 10:04:59AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 10:04:59AM +0100, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk): >=20 > Hi! Hi :) =20 > > It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a > > clean API; >=20 > What is your definition of a clean API? >=20 I'm probably getting confused by the name 'libh'. So what you're really talking about is several libraries, each with separate API's? In that case my fears are abated. If there are orthogonal in functionality... my fear was that libh was one big library that was on one hand was a graphic interface, on another hand was a sysinstall type tool, on another hand was a packaging system, etc. That's a lot to bite in one chunk. > Each library can be interfaced on its own. > - file access (including FTP/HTTP fetch, MD5 and ZIP interface) > - database stuff > - UI layer > - package library > - disk (interface to libdisk etc) I'm interested in the package library part. It may be that what you call 'package library' is equivalent to the existing /usr/ports stuff, or it maybe that it's close to what we've been calling libpkg. I'll read the libh docs and see. > there are some dependencies, though: e.g. the package library needs the > database lib, for obvious reasons. >=20 > Btw: The abstraction of the place to store the package db information > (you mentioned, e.g. Oracle instead of a local directory) should be > trivial, since everything is handled via calls to functions of > the database lib. Even more, you are using a Database object (C++), > so it's very easy to just write a SQL interfacing Database object. Did you see the earlier discussion on this subject? I'd be interested in your comments on my proposal? Joe --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcBcgACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZ9lgCcDqqm94A1aK/0ZVZMf7h1TZ6C 4S4AnR/nvGUDevVP+dHJeFbjDJr371Vi =bELy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 5:22:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C6137B405; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 9DEE915E; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:21:47 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:21:47 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Paul Richards Cc: Alexander Langer , The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028132147.B3223@tao.org.uk> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk>; from paul@freebsd-services.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: >=20 > To do that in libh you'd basically have to implement the sort of API we've > been talking about here, but the API should be designed so that it is also > pluggable into other applications. It makes more sense to develop it as a > separate project, with libh as a consumer, than to develop it as part of > libh, so that there is no risk of it having any dependencies on libh or > it's design being overly influenced by the specific requirements of libh. >=20 Not necessarily. It may make sense to make 'package library' =3D=3D our pkgAPI. I've got a copy of the libh repository and will take a look at that part of it to see how it's designed. Joe p.s. libh folken - please don't get the impression that we're poo-poo'ing what you'd done. Not at all. We're all on the same ultimate side here. --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcBmsACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZK7ACgncIr5IiBuEK2JhCtX320/opx w0cAn2qoiNhkqsVoW/diR/5+Fjucr94O =Uoz9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 10:26:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F5637B406; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.128.156]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011028182602.ENEJ14703.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:26:02 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6887419F5; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7293420ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:26:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:26:40 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Paul Richards Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: >=20 > If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with packa= ge > formats. That is the main failed predicate. Libh is not *just* an installation tool. Trivial installation tools are written within libh because it's the only place they can be developped, but they are only consumers, and not part of the library. Some part of the library can be used in installation programs, but that is all. Libh is concerned with package formats because FreeBSD package format needed a rewrite. That is done.=20 > It should only need to call the API that knows how to install > packages. This is the way it's done. Take a look at the file release/pkgtools/pkg_install.tcl, its a good example. > Those packages need not necessarily be in FreeBSD format (either > old or new) but could be in any number of different formats and pulled fr= om > any number of different repositories. Unfortunatly, libh' libpkg only understands its own format now, but it should be possible to implement other backends. > The API would take care of the > particalar package format and register all the relevant information into > the chosen datastore, but consumers of the API would know nothing about > any of this. Yes. Of course, this hasn't been extensively architectured in libh, because the first part consisted into writing a proper set of procedures and a basic API to interface the new package system. > To do that in libh you'd basically have to implement the sort of API we've > been talking about here, but the API should be designed so that it is also > pluggable into other applications. No problem. Let's not just re-invent the wheel. There is already an API, and it should be pretty pluggable in other apps and unpluggable from libh. :) > It makes more sense to develop it as a > separate project, with libh as a consumer, than to develop it as part of > libh, so that there is no risk of it having any dependencies on libh or > it's design being overly influenced by the specific requirements of libh. I don't think anyone sees a problem with that, apart from the fact that noone has taken up any work yet. My fears are to see golden mouth come in and tear libh apart to take the pkg API away and then let it rot. :) libh without the pkg api is not much, arguably. If you re-read the mail I wrote, you'll note that about 2/3 or 3/4 or the api is pkg oriented (file, database, pkg, etc). There is only libhdisk that might belong to the installer part, and it is bound to go as FreeBSD finds a decent disk library (libdisk has to go): A quote: - Database access - File access abstraction (urls, etc) - Package stream access - Libdisk wrapper - package library - tcl/c/c++ interface - seemless C/C++/TCL GUI (Tvision/Qt) library what would not be part of a seperate project here? The GUI and libhdisk. libhdisk is a trivial wrapper and the GUI is optional. I feel like saying: "people, stop complaining and code!" But I don't want to upset anyone. But I sure feel that a lot of people have a lot of criticism wrt libh or OP. These criticism should be oriented more towards changing the existing API (if necessary) than creating a whole new one. I also feel that a few people here didn't read my answer properly nor did they really take time to look at what libh was doing. Sorry if I'm a bit harsh too. A. --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcTd4ACgkQttcWHAnWiGcfjACeJIheKlPz/SCkDR/ITMWBv9a6 0wUAniAObMAU/ijSwgbU3L+3BBAqQb3L =1RwU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 11:43:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3959537B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9SJgkf02318; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Paul Richards Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current project steps In-Reply-To: Message from Paul Richards of "Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:23:14 GMT." <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:42:46 -0800 Message-ID: <2314.1004298166@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with package > formats. Ah, here's at least a fundamental misconception we can perhaps address. libh is far more than an installation tool, it's also a replacement for the package tools - that's why it's called "libh" and not simply sysinstalljr or something. A proper installation tool, aided by reasonably intelligent packages which also know how to configure themselves, depends heavily on the model of having the packages do most of the work, the installation tool being little more than bootstrapping code and a specialized execution environment for the package extraction mechanism. Those who are thinking of libh as a single program or mechanism just haven't looked at it deeply enough or read its design specs. It's a collection of tools aimed at solving a much greater set of problems. Than just installation or packaging. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 11:46:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6C537B406; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9SJk0f02339; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Paul Richards , Alexander Langer , The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current project steps In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:21:47 GMT." <20011028132147.B3223@tao.org.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:46:00 -0800 Message-ID: <2335.1004298360@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > p.s. libh folken - please don't get the impression that we're > poo-poo'ing what you'd done. Not at all. We're all on the same > ultimate side here. I don't think anyone has gotten that impression, though I think perhaps a few of us would have been far more gratified by this discussion had you FIRST studied libh and THEN begin discussing what you either wanted or didn't want it to do. To do it in the reverse order only forces everyone to go through the process of sorting out misunderstandings before any truly constructive dialog can begin. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 12:27:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD4B37B407; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id B6585D7; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:27:20 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:27:20 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Paul Richards , Alexander Langer , The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028202720.H3223@tao.org.uk> References: <2335.1004298360@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="e5bfZ/T2xnjpUIbw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2335.1004298360@winston.freebsd.org>; from jkh@winston.freebsd.org on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 11:46:00AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --e5bfZ/T2xnjpUIbw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 11:46:00AM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > p.s. libh folken - please don't get the impression that we're > > poo-poo'ing what you'd done. Not at all. We're all on the same > > ultimate side here. >=20 > I don't think anyone has gotten that impression, though I think > perhaps a few of us would have been far more gratified by this > discussion had you FIRST studied libh and THEN begin discussing what > you either wanted or didn't want it to do. To do it in the reverse > order only forces everyone to go through the process of sorting out > misunderstandings before any truly constructive dialog can begin. Understood. In my defence however, libh isn't currently developed in an 'in your face' way like most of the tree is (there are a few pserver type changes that need to be made first to pull it into ncvs/projects). It's not immediately obvious to people outside of the libh project what it is or isn't. It appears from the outside to be a project that's been on the boil for a long time without affecting the main tree in any significant way. My motivations were spawned by involvement with the development of the BSDPAN module for installing perl-cpan modules, with automatic registration in the package database. Try installing a perl module by hand on -current to see what I mean. It could do with being integrated more completely into the packaging infrastructure. Nothing I've seen so far even considers this kind of thing. In my "new world view" the existing ports, live along side a "package" module for installing binary upgrades, BSDPAN, rpm and others. It should be extremely easy (via the writing of a single module) to bolt in a whole new repository of packages and have it just work with whatever packaging tools, and database backend are currently being used. It seems unwieldly to have so many p5- and ruby- ports in existence when by integrating one module each we could make _all_ of the perl, or ruby modules available in one fell swoop. Joe --e5bfZ/T2xnjpUIbw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcaigACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZHowCfaLwUGfMmMrri3ZrFusmUwBD8 pPIAn31XvKaVDbCalOG2iBZhDOub0ymq =s9OH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --e5bfZ/T2xnjpUIbw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13: 5:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts19.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF0437B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011028210518.BQYV4828.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:05:18 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACD219F5; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A7A4C20ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:06:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:06:04 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Paul Richards , Alexander Langer , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028160603.B71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <2335.1004298360@winston.freebsd.org> <20011028202720.H3223@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011028202720.H3223@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 08:27:20PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 11:46:00AM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > p.s. libh folken - please don't get the impression that we're > > > poo-poo'ing what you'd done. Not at all. We're all on the same > > > ultimate side here. > >=20 > > I don't think anyone has gotten that impression, though I think > > perhaps a few of us would have been far more gratified by this > > discussion had you FIRST studied libh and THEN begin discussing what > > you either wanted or didn't want it to do. To do it in the reverse > > order only forces everyone to go through the process of sorting out > > misunderstandings before any truly constructive dialog can begin. >=20 > Understood. In my defence however, libh isn't currently developed > in an 'in your face' way like most of the tree is (there are a few > pserver type changes that need to be made first to pull it into > ncvs/projects). It's not immediately obvious to people outside of > the libh project what it is or isn't.=20 There is indeed a lack of documentation in libh that must be corrected. > It appears from the outside > to be a project that's been on the boil for a long time without > affecting the main tree in any significant way. Libh has been dormant for periods. That doesn't make libh less interesting to me. :) > My motivations were spawned by involvement with the development of > the BSDPAN module for installing perl-cpan modules, with automatic > registration in the package database. Try installing a perl module > by hand on -current to see what I mean. It could do with being > integrated more completely into the packaging infrastructure. > Nothing I've seen so far even considers this kind of thing. In my =20 > "new world view" the existing ports, live along side a "package" =20 > module for installing binary upgrades, BSDPAN, rpm and others. It > should be extremely easy (via the writing of a single module) to =20 > bolt in a whole new repository of packages and have it just work =20 > with whatever packaging tools, and database backend are currently > being used. It seems unwieldly to have so many p5- and ruby- ports > in existence when by integrating one module each we could make _all_ > of the perl, or ruby modules available in one fell swoop. You know, this is just the thing libh doesn't and cannot take care of. The pkg/ports duality. Mostly because, as you said, libh doesn't have a lot of influence over the main tree, in great part because it *isn't* into the main tree and built as parts of make worlds, etc. But mostly because libh is a package system, and /usr/src and /usr/ports are the packages. ;) Even having it there as a "switch" could be a great improvement. :) People could start experimenting with the new package scheme. This is a project that could be started in parallel with libh: formalization of the build process, where the build process includes source access, patching, configuration, building, etc. The new package system (ie libh package system) is fine, I think. The hard part is now to integrate packages more nicely into the src trees. Make /usr/src distros packages. Make /usr/ports be nicer with packages and, why not, make the actual port skeletons "packages" in a repository. That would adress the API problems you mentionned about ports not accessing INDEX directly and things like that.. A. --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcczoACgkQttcWHAnWiGfdKgCfakziVE9cpdoMJHXROyVmiJik CAEAn1gA5aC/24jD8uw4K5pmp1KCu2ey =wf90 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13:37:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 8C7E037B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:37:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:37:27 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: "Simon L . Nielsen" Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028133727.A15301@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org>; from simon@nitro.dk on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:58:51PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could this maybe be done with the current makefiles? I don't know enough > about the FreeBSD build system to know that, but from what I have seen it > looks like the makefiles contains much of the information needed (program > names, program locations and so on). Yes, this is my hope. > Exactly what kinds of problems to you see if the base system is using > packages? I would guess when installing from source the only difference is > that you compile the packages yourself? Of course to find a way to give the > self compiled version package version numbers might be a bit tricky Well, I'm sort of thinking that the usual version numbers aren't really an optimal solution. For example, take a look at the voodoo involved with the current package tools They still break down in a number of circumstances, mostly depending on what people think letters in version numbers should mean. I'm fond of date stamps for this reason. We could keep supplied version numbers around for various reasons, but the actual version would simply be the date of the latest change, like 200110281332. This always increases forward, and will never require hacks like PORT_EPOCH. > Hmm, I have been reading the document Jordan wrote about libh > (http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html), but I don't really know exactly > what have been done in libh and how much overlap there is between libh and > the reworking of the pacakge system.. I'm hoping joe writes up his ideas and posts them more mailing lists sometime soon. I think he and paul are really on the right track to coming up with a solid and extensible solution. Perhaps their ideas can be worked into what libh has got so far, or maybe things will just be borrowed from libh. In any case, it seems to me that the next generation of FreeBSD packages needs to be discussed on lists like -arch and -hackers instead of just -binup and -libh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13:45: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id AF72D37B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:45:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:45:06 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: The Anarcat Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028134506.B15301@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:59:52PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think what binup should concentrate on is the client/server paradigm > because the package system is already under way. We've already got that designed, and for the most part, implemented as well. > We probably need pkg-plists. Even if that sucks. We're thinking it would be highly useful to have an entirely layer of abstraction here. Think of a cluster of FreeBSD machines sitting in a lab. Why not put all their package information into a local Postgres server? > It would probably be possible to create packages from /usr/obj (or > equivalent), and then install these, but the fundamental problem is > that: > > cd /foo/bar ; make install > > is more efficient than > > cd /foo/bar ; make package ; pkg_add bar.tgz Yes, but what I've got in mind is making the install target smart enough to update the package database. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13:47:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 051DE37B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:47:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:47:18 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: The Anarcat Cc: Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028134718.C15301@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:17:27PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You're right, of course. First off, I'm having problems with the mailing > list browser... The "current" html archive contains 4 messages, 2 from > me. :) I'll check on the ftp site. This is a known problem. The directory the mailing list archives are supposed to sit in does not exist, so when it comes time to move them from the current archive into its permanent location, they simply vanish. I've asked about this but have not gotten a response. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13:48:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id DA29D37B405; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:48:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:48:20 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028134820.D15301@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 09:01:57PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a > clean API; and should be split into several, or rely on others. The API > that we're talking about here is one such that the libh API should rely > on for its job of managing packages, but at the moment it's trying to > dig too deep IMO. It's a bit like an application also implementing TCP > and ethernet drivers in one library. The project has a somewhat bizarre name, because libh sort of implies -lh. This isn't the case, it isn't a single library at all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 13:57:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF7937B406; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011028215710.IDRZ1976.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:57:10 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBA71A30; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E538B20ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:57:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:57:57 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Eric Melville Cc: Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028165757.C71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028134820.D15301@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dkEUBIird37B8yKS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011028134820.D15301@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --dkEUBIird37B8yKS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 01:48:20PM -0800, Eric Melville wrote: >=20 > The project has a somewhat bizarre name, because libh sort of implies -lh. > This isn't the case, it isn't a single library at all. For what it's worth, libh needs a new name, it's official. :) A. --dkEUBIird37B8yKS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcf2QACgkQttcWHAnWiGfMFACfcwwl2g3MS5s87b6jxQ8UCKU0 LeYAn0pYRm4NmqYayDgJXGdmEenSVMWO =qhsM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dkEUBIird37B8yKS-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 14: 1:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7B837B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011028220132.GEKM5606.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:01:32 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26CEC1A2C; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4F6B520ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:02:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:02:24 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Eric Melville Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028170223.D71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011028134506.B15301@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011028134506.B15301@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 01:45:06PM -0800, Eric Melville wrote: > > I think what binup should concentrate on is the client/server paradigm > > because the package system is already under way. >=20 > We've already got that designed, and for the most part, implemented as > well. yes, I read a bit about this... Really interesting stuff. > > We probably need pkg-plists. Even if that sucks. >=20 > We're thinking it would be highly useful to have an entirely layer of > abstraction here. Think of a cluster of FreeBSD machines sitting in a lab. > Why not put all their package information into a local Postgres server? Of course. It was the "concept" of the plist I wanted to take note here. Wether it is stored in a SQL database, a file or a piece of paper (not likely :), my point is that we must start recording what gets installed and where, and md5, and etc... > > It would probably be possible to create packages from /usr/obj (or > > equivalent), and then install these, but the fundamental problem is > > that: > >=20 > > cd /foo/bar ; make install > >=20 > > is more efficient than > >=20 > > cd /foo/bar ; make package ; pkg_add bar.tgz >=20 > Yes, but what I've got in mind is making the install target smart enough > to update the package database. Yes, that would be the proper solution. a. --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcgG8ACgkQttcWHAnWiGdX3QCgoE5YvnmZXz0jc59VCzkefJiy vbwAoIADeUeiW2gIBweuvTdA0r067a+c =B1zY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 14:23:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6C137B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AC71D146; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:23:10 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:23:10 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: The Anarcat Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <11770000.1004307790@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 13:26:40 -0500 The Anarcat wrote: > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: >> >> If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with >> package formats. > > That is the main failed predicate. Libh is not *just* an installation > tool. Trivial installation tools are written within libh because it's > the only place they can be developped, but they are only consumers, and > not part of the library. > > Some part of the library can be used in installation programs, but that > is all. > > Libh is concerned with package formats because FreeBSD package format > needed a rewrite. That is done. My impression though is that this new package format is totally dependent upon the architecture of libh, in that the packages themselves are expected to carry large amounts of intelligence in the form of embedded tcl. All that libh really does is provide a framework for packages to execute their embedded tcl that describes how they should be installed. That's nothing like the design Joe and I have been thinking about. The approach I want to take is to come up with a specification for the API that can then be implemented independently by different coding teams (if there's interest). At the moment, all we have are one-off implementations, no-one has ever written a specification that others can follow if they wish to write their own conforming installation tools. One group may want to write a perl intaller, libh would use tcl, another group might use C etc. The task that needs to be completed successfully with some foresight and planning is the specification of the API, sitting down and designing the API before any code is written will result in a much more complete an well thought out design. > I also feel that a few people here didn't read my answer properly nor > did they really take time to look at what libh was doing. I've followed the development of libh as much as possible, certainly I've kept up to date with the mailing list. To be honest, that hasn't enlightened me a great deal as to what the intended goal of the project is, or what the path to that goal is expected to be. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 15:59:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FF237B405; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011028235901.WVKY10438.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:59:01 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D2319FB; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 35A4E20ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:59:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:59:45 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Paul Richards Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028185945.E71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <11770000.1004307790@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ryJZkp9/svQ58syV" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <11770000.1004307790@lobster.originative.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 10:23:10PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 13:26:40 -0500 The Anarcat > wrote: >=20 > > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: [btw, is it me or is this 2 hours *after* your last reply?] > >> If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with > >> package formats. > >=20 > > That is the main failed predicate. Libh is not *just* an installation > > tool. Trivial installation tools are written within libh because it's > > the only place they can be developped, but they are only consumers, and > > not part of the library. > >=20 > > Some part of the library can be used in installation programs, but that > > is all. > >=20 > > Libh is concerned with package formats because FreeBSD package format > > needed a rewrite. That is done.=20 >=20 > My impression though is that this new package format is totally dependent > upon the architecture of libh, in that the packages themselves are expect= ed > to carry large amounts of intelligence in the form of embedded tcl. All > that libh really does is provide a framework for packages to execute their > embedded tcl that describes how they should be installed. Actually, it's the other way around. Libh architecture is based on the package format. :) But I now understand more clearly the concerns. Indeed, the package format is arguable. > That's nothing like the design Joe and I have been thinking about. I didn't know this design included package formats. > The approach I want to take is to come up with a specification for the A= PI > that can then be implemented independently by different coding teams (if > there's interest). At the moment, all we have are one-off implementations, > no-one has ever written a specification that others can follow if they wi= sh > to write their own conforming installation tools. I don't feel that design is in "contradiction" with libh's. You only mention having an API *over* libh and any other package format. Am I wrong? Couldn't libh package system be used within this new API? Or libh API changed to fit this new API? I guess I'm getting confused over your concerns here... > One group may want to write a perl intaller, libh would use tcl, another > group might use C etc. The task that needs to be completed successfully > with some foresight and planning is the specification of the API, sitting > down and designing the API before any code is written will result in a mu= ch > more complete an well thought out design. Agreed. However, it is too late. Code has already been written. Heck, even the old package tools count in there. :) A. --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvcm+8ACgkQttcWHAnWiGfWTwCgpQT8793DBdtkOzAuXGPHCw8x 8jQAoJ4WFrgSccJSx0S3H1vh6DQWiGJB =+pul -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 19:52: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F65637B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9T3pXf03551; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: The Anarcat Cc: Eric Melville , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps In-Reply-To: Message from The Anarcat of "Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:57:57 EST." <20011028165757.C71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:51:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, all names tend to fall into one of several categories: 1. Names that are cool but don't mean anything. Examples: Stingray Tesla Orion Wolf-pack Testerosa 2. Names that are clear attempts to find first a cool acronym and then back-fill it with some contrived expansion. Examples: ICE - Installer Coded Encapsulation ENCORE - Encapsulated Net-Correct Ordered Registration Environment CHOMP - Centralized HOst Mandated Packaging 3. Names which are chosen deliberately to not mean anything to anyone. Examples: Potato GRONK Wackapacks 4. Names or acronyms that really shouldn't be used. Examples: Co-operative Uniform Network Transporters Packages.NET or ActivePackages PenguinPacks Shall we narrow it down to a category, at least? :) - Jordan > --dkEUBIird37B8yKS > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 01:48:20PM -0800, Eric Melville wrote: > >=20 > > The project has a somewhat bizarre name, because libh sort of implies -lh. > > This isn't the case, it isn't a single library at all. > > For what it's worth, libh needs a new name, it's official. :) > > A. > > --dkEUBIird37B8yKS > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature > Content-Disposition: inline > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAjvcf2QACgkQttcWHAnWiGfMFACfcwwl2g3MS5s87b6jxQ8UCKU0 > LeYAn0pYRm4NmqYayDgJXGdmEenSVMWO > =qhsM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --dkEUBIird37B8yKS-- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 19:57:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BA637B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011029035719.NDAU14703.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:57:19 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4395B1A35; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F27AC20ACE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:58:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:58:05 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Eric Melville , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011028225805.A73901@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011028165757.C71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 07:51:33PM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Well, all names tend to fall into one of several categories: >=20 > 1. Names that are cool but don't mean anything. Examples: >=20 > 2. Names that are clear attempts to find first a cool acronym and then > back-fill it with some contrived expansion. Examples: >=20 > 3. Names which are chosen deliberately to not mean anything to anyone. > Examples: >=20 > 4. Names or acronyms that really shouldn't be used. Examples: >=20 > Shall we narrow it down to a category, at least? :) Since libh falls in 1, 3 and 4, I guess we could start looking at 2. ;) Actually, forget the 1. It's not cool. I say try rutabaga. I like rutabaga.=20 Now I'll stop wasting your time and start regreting I brought this up because I do not have an answer. A. --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvc08sACgkQttcWHAnWiGfE4QCgjDmfUFNufhpQWru0l2zaDhUB ESEAn2JbU300w/0TtoWH2Maw6UFMHadN =tjen -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 21:16:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658AD37B408; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f9T5G5a101154; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:16:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> References: <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:16:02 -0500 To: Jordan Hubbard , The Anarcat From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: current project steps Cc: Eric Melville , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 7:51 PM -0800 10/28/01, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >1. Names that are cool but don't mean anything. Examples: > Orion > Wolf-pack These two imply "a group of things" (to me at least), and that might be appropriate. >2. Names that are clear attempts to find first a cool acronym and > then back-fill it with some contrived expansion. Examples: > > ICE - Installer Coded Encapsulation > ENCORE - Encapsulated Net-Correct Ordered Registration Environment > CHOMP - Centralized HOst Mandated Packaging SCAT - Simple Cool Admin Tools (or maybe even scatpack, which sounds like ratpack) (this comes from a project I had called "scatters" - "simple cool admin tool to everywhere run something") -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 28 21:21: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts17.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA7337B406; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011029052050.JZYL19597.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:20:50 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58AA1A33; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 628CC20ACE; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:21:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:21:41 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Eric Melville , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011029002141.B73901@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <3546.1004327493@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cmJC7u66zC7hs+87" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 12:16:02AM -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: >=20 > SCAT - Simple Cool Admin Tools Even better: SCAM - Simple Coll Admin Manager (sorry, couldn't resist :) A. --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvc52QACgkQttcWHAnWiGd01gCfeexs/uP/0iLVhYyEx/jVo6WN neoAoIlwaaSA1FOAOZRA+fpuEVP6WFFV =+MsL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 2:53:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244E937B401; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C7E1D146; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:53:21 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:53:21 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: The Anarcat Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <125480000.1004352801@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011028185945.E71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <11770000.1004307790@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028185945.E71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 18:59:45 -0500 The Anarcat wrote: > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 10:23:10PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: >> --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 13:26:40 -0500 The Anarcat >> wrote: >> >> > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > [btw, is it me or is this 2 hours *after* your last reply?] > >> >> If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with >> >> package formats. >> > >> > That is the main failed predicate. Libh is not *just* an installation >> > tool. Trivial installation tools are written within libh because it's >> > the only place they can be developped, but they are only consumers, and >> > not part of the library. >> > >> > Some part of the library can be used in installation programs, but that >> > is all. >> > >> > Libh is concerned with package formats because FreeBSD package format >> > needed a rewrite. That is done. >> >> My impression though is that this new package format is totally dependent >> upon the architecture of libh, in that the packages themselves are >> expected to carry large amounts of intelligence in the form of embedded >> tcl. All that libh really does is provide a framework for packages to >> execute their embedded tcl that describes how they should be installed. > > Actually, it's the other way around. Libh architecture is based on the > package format. :) I think someone needs to write a white paper on exactly what libh is and what it's goals are. > But I now understand more clearly the concerns. Indeed, the package > format is arguable. > >> That's nothing like the design Joe and I have been thinking about. > > I didn't know this design included package formats. It doesn't, but libh, as you've said above, is not a generic installer, it is a self-contained environment. I'm sure it's extensible so it can deal with other formats but there's no a-priori design that's taken all that into consideration up front. > I don't feel that design is in "contradiction" with libh's. You only > mention having an API *over* libh and any other package format. Am I > wrong? Couldn't libh package system be used within this new API? Or libh > API changed to fit this new API? It's not. If libh has come up with a new package format then there's no reason that the package API can't support backends for handling that format. Although, the libh package format is different to most in that it is likely to have embedded executable code in it. I'm not sure what impact that would have since it's radically different to any other format that is likely to be supported. My impression is that the libh route means that each package is really it's own installer, and libh just provides a library of the common code needed by each installer. That approach is somewhat unusual. The two projects are complimentary. The work we're looking at doing is not going to deal with libdisk, or installers, or the gui or anything else that sysinstall or the current package tools currently do. We're interested in the low level architecture. To use the existing pkg* tools as an example, we're looking to replace /var/db/pkg with a new storage mechanism and for access to that storage mechanism to be via an API, no direct access. This API should support the development of a whole range of tools that can deal with numerous different package formats and numerous different front ends, including all the current tools that exist. This is a relatively small piece of the complete picture but I think if we do it right it makes the development of everything else a lot more straightforward. libh can continue with everything it's currently developing, including a new package format, but it should use this new API for doing the /var/db/pkg equivalent tasks. > I guess I'm getting confused over your concerns here... > >> One group may want to write a perl intaller, libh would use tcl, another >> group might use C etc. The task that needs to be completed successfully >> with some foresight and planning is the specification of the API, sitting >> down and designing the API before any code is written will result in a >> much more complete an well thought out design. > > Agreed. However, it is too late. Code has already been written. Heck, > even the old package tools count in there. :) It's not too late to design the next package installer, it's obviously too late for existing ones. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 3:55:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from host2.rila.bg (host2.rila.bg [194.141.1.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8624B37B406 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.rila.bg ([192.168.201.31]) by host2.rila.bg with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:55:27 +0200 Received: from earth.rila.bg (mitko@localhost.rila.bg [127.0.0.1]) by earth.rila.bg (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9TBuhX81764 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:56:44 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from mitko@earth.rila.bg) Message-Id: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: binup@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: mitko@rila.bg From: "Dimitar Peikov" Subject: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:56:43 +0200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2001 11:55:27.0925 (UTC) FILETIME=[99FE0650:01C16070] Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Sorry, but it'seems to me that someone must take control more hard on this project! I mean that someone must be responsible what is to be done there, not all subscribers to blame on maillist what is what to do and so on. As I saw this thread I got these conclusions : 1. Project must use libh for installation purposes. 1.a. To use libh there must be documentation available what libh is exactly 1.b. Other libraries, modules, packages or what the project would depends on 2. Server side part - currently we have only requirements 2.a. Specification 2.b. Implementation 3. Client side part - currently we have only requirements 3.a. Specification 3.b. Implementation Personally I'm for doing things not on the flow but in scenarios. This cleares the sense and comments are less. This also gives one view of the things. Because it's common case when 2 people speak about one think but have different viewpoints and therefore can't agree each other completely for a long time. PS: I havent in mind to argue someone particular, but I see that in this project there are only requests what should it be not something really done or proposal. -- Dimitar Peikov Programmer Analyst Globalization Group "We Build e-Business" RILA Solutions 27 Building, Acad.G.Bonchev Str. 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria phone: (+359 2) 9797320 phone: (+359 2) 9797300 fax: (+359 2) 9733355 http://www.rila.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 3:55:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from host2.rila.bg (host2.rila.bg [194.141.1.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17CC37B403 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.rila.bg ([192.168.201.31]) by host2.rila.bg with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:55:28 +0200 Received: from earth.rila.bg (mitko@localhost.rila.bg [127.0.0.1]) by earth.rila.bg (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9TBujX81774 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:56:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from mitko@earth.rila.bg) Message-Id: <200110291156.f9TBujX81774@earth.rila.bg> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: binup@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: mitko@rila.bg From: "Dimitar Peikov" Subject: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:56:45 +0200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2001 11:55:28.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[9A8AB5F0:01C16070] Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org said: > It would probably be possible to create packages from /usr/obj (or > equivalent), and then install these, but the fundamental problem is > that: > > cd /foo/bar ; make install > > is more efficient than > > cd /foo/bar ; make package ; pkg_add bar.tgz > I agree that this is true when all machines are the same, but when you have mixed types of machines in the network, this would not be the good idea. In case there are old machines I think that there must be packages for each machine type (i386, i486, ...). Yes not to all kinds but to these what the system is managed to manage! Am I right? In this case the second variant (with compilation) would be more efficient or the new naming scheme must be required. -- Dimitar Peikov Programmer Analyst Globalization Group "We Build e-Business" RILA Solutions 27 Building, Acad.G.Bonchev Str. 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria phone: (+359 2) 9797320 phone: (+359 2) 9797300 fax: (+359 2) 9733355 http://www.rila.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 4:17:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA1B37B405 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 04:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 054B929F; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:16:57 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:16:56 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Dimitar Peikov Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011029121656.D867@tao.org.uk> References: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cQXOx3fnlpmgJsTP" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg>; from mitko@rila.bg on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 01:56:43PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cQXOx3fnlpmgJsTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 01:56:43PM +0200, Dimitar Peikov wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Sorry, but it'seems to me that someone must take control more hard on thi= s=20 > project! I mean that someone must be responsible what is to be done there= , not=20 > all subscribers to blame on maillist what is what to do and so on. As I s= aw=20 > this thread I got these conclusions : >=20 > 1. Project must use libh for installation purposes. It's more likely to be a consumer of pkgAPI, which may or maynot be part of libh. We'll publish some more details of what exactly pkgAPI should be after BSDConEurope on the 9-11th Nov. Joe --cQXOx3fnlpmgJsTP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvdSLcACgkQXVIcjOaxUBa/5wCcCMjtUPOdM5JTgqYfLotlrGA8 aVMAn0yNPpPoQ4Y2M3d2f+RnQ5+gWnED =TB57 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cQXOx3fnlpmgJsTP-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 7:12:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C309437B40A; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011029151240.FKOH4752.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:12:40 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4A719FD; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1297B20ACE; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:13:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:13:30 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Paul Richards Cc: Alexander Langer , Josef Karthauser , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011029101329.A94698@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> <20011028100459.A40262@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <361480000.1004271794@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028132639.A71003@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <11770000.1004307790@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011028185945.E71544@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <125480000.1004352801@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <125480000.1004352801@lobster.originative.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:53:21AM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 18:59:45 -0500 The Anarcat > wrote: >=20 > > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 10:23:10PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > >> --On Sunday, October 28, 2001 13:26:40 -0500 The Anarcat > >> wrote: > >>=20 > >> > On Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 12:23:14PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > >=20 > > [btw, is it me or is this 2 hours *after* your last reply?] > >=20 > >> >> If libh is an installation tool then it shouldn't be concerned with > >> >> package formats. > >> >=20 > >> > That is the main failed predicate. Libh is not *just* an installation > >> > tool. Trivial installation tools are written within libh because it's > >> > the only place they can be developped, but they are only consumers, = and > >> > not part of the library. > >> >=20 > >> > Some part of the library can be used in installation programs, but t= hat > >> > is all. > >> >=20 > >> > Libh is concerned with package formats because FreeBSD package format > >> > needed a rewrite. That is done.=20 > >>=20 > >> My impression though is that this new package format is totally depend= ent > >> upon the architecture of libh, in that the packages themselves are > >> expected to carry large amounts of intelligence in the form of embedded > >> tcl. All that libh really does is provide a framework for packages to > >> execute their embedded tcl that describes how they should be installed. > >=20 > > Actually, it's the other way around. Libh architecture is based on the > > package format. :) >=20 > I think someone needs to write a white paper on exactly what libh is and > what it's goals are. I consider sysinstall2.txt as a good (if not complete) paper on that. It sure needs some fleshing out, but it's a start. > > But I now understand more clearly the concerns. Indeed, the package > > format is arguable. > >=20 > >> That's nothing like the design Joe and I have been thinking about. > >=20 > > I didn't know this design included package formats. >=20 > It doesn't, but libh, as you've said above, is not a generic installer, it > is a self-contained environment. I'm sure it's extensible so it can deal > with other formats but there's no a-priori design that's taken all that > into consideration up front. Indeed. Libh needs to (1) seperate the packages libs from the rest of the libraries more clearly, (2) with a well-documented API. I think part 1 is no problem and in fact is already in place, but part 2 needs some work. > > I don't feel that design is in "contradiction" with libh's. You only > > mention having an API *over* libh and any other package format. Am I > > wrong? Couldn't libh package system be used within this new API? Or libh > > API changed to fit this new API? >=20 > It's not. If libh has come up with a new package format then there's no > reason that the package API can't support backends for handling that > format. Although, the libh package format is different to most in that it > is likely to have embedded executable code in it. I'm not sure what impact > that would have since it's radically different to any other format that is > likely to be supported. The impact of having tcl code in there is not much more than tools having to link with tcl libraries. I see the executable code simply as a high-level language that is being interpreted. There is such description language in any package format, even our current ones have +CONTENTS files which are getting more and more complex. Might as well have a known language for the meta-language. :) > My impression is that the libh route means that each package is really it= 's > own installer, and libh just provides a library of the common code needed > by each installer. I think that's a pretty good picture. > That approach is somewhat unusual. Most definitely. > The two projects are complimentary. The work we're looking at doing is not > going to deal with libdisk, or installers, or the gui or anything else th= at > sysinstall or the current package tools currently do. We're interested in > the low level architecture. To use the existing pkg* tools as an example, > we're looking to replace /var/db/pkg with a new storage mechanism and for > access to that storage mechanism to be via an API, no direct access. This > API should support the development of a whole range of tools that can deal > with numerous different package formats and numerous different front ends, > including all the current tools that exist. Agreed. I understand you also have something to present already as such API? > This is a relatively small piece of the complete picture but I think if we > do it right it makes the development of everything else a lot more > straightforward. Indeed.=20 > libh can continue with everything it's currently developing, including a > new package format, but it should use this new API for doing the > /var/db/pkg equivalent tasks. Agreed. I'd be happy to work on this new API and/or libh package system to make them conformant. BTW, I feel I must present apologies to the list and to its members and in particular the participants of this thread for I have been a bit harsh. Sorry if I was a dork. :) A. --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvdchgACgkQttcWHAnWiGe9uACgmS+UP5NzIaLO3BDeQjxijPiR mr4AoIxKTr7zjL/2o6+1u6FHqMfIVCXm =giDb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Mon Oct 29 7:18:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts9.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D72A37B403 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.136.15]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011029151845.XBSR27282.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:18:45 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282861A43; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49B4820ACE; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:19:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:19:42 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Dimitar Peikov Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011029101941.B94698@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WhfpMioaduB5tiZL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 01:56:43PM +0200, Dimitar Peikov wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Sorry, but it'seems to me that someone must take control more hard on thi= s=20 > project! I mean that someone must be responsible what is to be done there= , not=20 > all subscribers to blame on maillist what is what to do and so on. We just need people to start working on this, and for that, people must agree on general directions. We're seeing that discussion, for one, and I think the work is also under way. :) > As I saw this thread I got these conclusions : >=20 > 1. Project must use libh for installation purposes. Not necessarly, but yes, libh should probably be FreeBSD native package format. > 1.a. To use libh there must be documentation available what libh is exact= ly There is. It is not complete, and is scattered. I see this as one of the main things on the task list of libh. :) > 1.b. Other libraries, modules, packages or what the project would depends= on I don't understand that line. > 2. Server side part - currently we have only requirements Not true. Code has been written and is available from the projects webpage. =46rom what I understand, the server side part is the one that's almost complete. > 2.a. Specification done. > 2.b. Implementation almost done. > 3. Client side part - currently we have only requirements We also have code, it's just not functional yet. > PS: > I havent in mind to argue someone particular, but I see that in this proj= ect=20 > there are only requests what should it be not something really done or=20 > proposal. I understand Paul and Joe are and have been working on an API proposal, so I guess it's what should settle things down. A. --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvdc40ACgkQttcWHAnWiGduJQCfT+h1NN0bdkO2IUkR6Y7bmUgm eagAoIi1UBCNqObnsPmRSNVfguVvJAXS =iE/B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 30 11:14: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from fe040.worldonline.dk (fe040.worldonline.dk [212.54.64.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2102837B408 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 973 invoked by uid 0); 30 Oct 2001 19:13:57 -0000 Received: from 213.237.101.114.adsl.kh.worldonline.dk (HELO there) (213.237.101.114) by fe040.worldonline.dk with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 19:13:57 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Simon L.Nielsen To: Eric Melville Subject: Re: current project steps Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:13:24 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011028133727.A15301@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20011028133727.A15301@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011030191359.2102837B408@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 28 October 2001 22:37, Eric Melville wrote: > numbers should mean. I'm fond of date stamps for this reason. We could keep > supplied version numbers around for various reasons, but the actual version > would simply be the date of the latest change, like 200110281332. This > always increases forward, and will never require hacks like PORT_EPOCH. For the base system I can't see a problem with that.. except what happens if a computer changes branch e.g. STABLE -> CURRENT.. That also needs to be considered... I don't have a good solution to that right now.. Has anyone actually looked at making a packages from /usr/src and what problems there will be doing it? - -- /Simon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE73vvX8kocFXgPTRwRArQyAKDSf9wA9as70HE2HxqG8WXo6A4TSACfcIoI rEIpZbscGACjAcpvIkCy51M= =qyg7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 31 14:40: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 85A0037B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:39:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:39:59 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Dimitar Peikov , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011031143959.A24147@FreeBSD.org> References: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> <20011029121656.D867@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011029121656.D867@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 12:16:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We'll publish some more details of what exactly pkgAPI should be after > BSDConEurope on the 9-11th Nov. Excellent, I'm looking forward to seeing it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 31 14:52:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 9342A37B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:52:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:52:15 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Dimitar Peikov Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011031145215.B24147@FreeBSD.org> References: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110291156.f9TBuhX81764@earth.rila.bg>; from mitko@rila.bg on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 01:56:43PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I havent in mind to argue someone particular, but I see that in this project > there are only requests what should it be not something really done or > proposal. Actually, code does exist. Take a look at the projects directory in the cvs repository. Everything in the client directory, however, will be ripped out once the new package api and system is in place. The server needs to keep track of history rather than just keeping the most recent files around, but it should give a good idea about how things are supposed to work. It also may be beneficial to change the protocol if only packages and such are going to be transmitted. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 31 15:16:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 7065F37B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:16:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:16:16 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: "Simon L . Nielsen" Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011031151616.C24147@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011028133727.A15301@FreeBSD.org> <20011030191359.2102837B408@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011030191359.2102837B408@hub.freebsd.org>; from simon@nitro.dk on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:13:24PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For the base system I can't see a problem with that.. except what happens if > a computer changes branch e.g. STABLE -> CURRENT.. That also needs to be > considered... I don't have a good solution to that right now.. > > Has anyone actually looked at making a packages from /usr/src and what > problems there will be doing it? I hadn't considered this. I suppose I'll have to think about that for a while. As for building a base system of packages, I'm going to set up a machine for this purpose and get started on the weekend. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Nov 1 8:32:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from columbus.cris.net (ns.cris.net [212.110.128.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B3B37B405 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by columbus.cris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA94268; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:32:23 +0200 (EET) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fA1GYW702128; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:34:32 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:34:32 +0200 From: Alexey Zelkin To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Subject: proposed projects/updater.html update ... Message-ID: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, any objections against this patch ? Index: updater.sgml =================================================================== RCS file: /home/cvs/freebsd/www/en/projects/updater.sgml,v retrieving revision 1.3 diff -u -r1.3 updater.sgml --- updater.sgml 24 Oct 2001 17:46:57 -0000 1.3 +++ updater.sgml 1 Nov 2001 16:14:49 -0000 @@ -220,13 +220,11 @@

Where's the Code?

-

This project is currently being developed in a CVS repo on - usw4.freebsd.org. Unfortunately, this machine was recently - upgraded and the CVS pserver was removed. The administrator - have been notified and the code should be available through - anonymous CVS in the very near future. For the time being, you - can download a snapshot of the code here.

+

This project is currently being developed in main FreeBSD + CVS repository. Its sources are located under projects/binup + hierarchy. You can usual methods of retriving FreeBSD sources + to access them. NOTE: cvsup users should use projects-all + cvsup collection to access projects under projects/ hierarchy

A mailing list has been setup for this project. Please post all questions, patches, etc to the To: Alexey Zelkin Cc: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Subject: Re: proposed projects/updater.html update ... Message-ID: <20011101164956.X745@tao.org.uk> References: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wn0J+vu9+NMIXK57" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net>; from phantom@freebsd.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:34:32PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Wn0J+vu9+NMIXK57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:34:32PM +0200, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > hi, >=20 > any objections against this patch ? >=20 I'm submitting a patch to jdp for a projects-binup distrib. You may want to hang on for this before committing. Joe > Index: updater.sgml > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > RCS file: /home/cvs/freebsd/www/en/projects/updater.sgml,v > retrieving revision 1.3 > diff -u -r1.3 updater.sgml > --- updater.sgml 24 Oct 2001 17:46:57 -0000 1.3 > +++ updater.sgml 1 Nov 2001 16:14:49 -0000 > @@ -220,13 +220,11 @@ > >

Where's the Code?

> =20 > -

This project is currently being developed in a CVS repo on > - usw4.freebsd.org. Unfortunately, this machine was recently > - upgraded and the CVS pserver was removed. The administrator > - have been notified and the code should be available through > - anonymous CVS in the very near future. For the time being, you > - can download a snapshot of the code - href=3D"http://www.FreeBSD.org/~murray/updated.tgz">here.

> +

This project is currently being developed in main FreeBSD > + CVS repository. Its sources are located under projects/binup > + hierarchy. You can usual methods of retriving FreeBSD sources > + to access them. NOTE: cvsup users should use projects-a= ll > + cvsup collection to access projects under projects/ hiera= rchy

> =20 >

A mailing list has been setup for this project. Please post > all questions, patches, etc to the =20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message --Wn0J+vu9+NMIXK57 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvhfTQACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZ68QCfVSKl7/K+fUB+w2+USMYxKMOZ nKwAniRJ9782XLpLFelOXFJT7LVrYv3Z =jufV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wn0J+vu9+NMIXK57-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Nov 1 9:15:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA7B37B407; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 56F0446; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:15:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:15:03 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Alexey Zelkin Cc: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Subject: Re: proposed projects/updater.html update ... Message-ID: <20011101171503.H745@tao.org.uk> References: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net> <20011101164956.X745@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YaSFhaLO3hpMipqe" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011101164956.X745@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 04:49:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --YaSFhaLO3hpMipqe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 04:49:56PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:34:32PM +0200, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > hi, > >=20 > > any objections against this patch ? > >=20 >=20 > I'm submitting a patch to jdp for a projects-binup distrib. You may > want to hang on for this before committing. No, forget that. John doesn't want to split the projects tree up whilst it's so small. Go with the original. Joe > > Index: updater.sgml > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > RCS file: /home/cvs/freebsd/www/en/projects/updater.sgml,v > > retrieving revision 1.3 > > diff -u -r1.3 updater.sgml > > --- updater.sgml 24 Oct 2001 17:46:57 -0000 1.3 > > +++ updater.sgml 1 Nov 2001 16:14:49 -0000 > > @@ -220,13 +220,11 @@ > > > >

Where's the Code?

> > =20 > > -

This project is currently being developed in a CVS repo on > > - usw4.freebsd.org. Unfortunately, this machine was recently > > - upgraded and the CVS pserver was removed. The administrator > > - have been notified and the code should be available through > > - anonymous CVS in the very near future. For the time being, you > > - can download a snapshot of the code > - href=3D"http://www.FreeBSD.org/~murray/updated.tgz">here.

> > +

This project is currently being developed in main FreeBSD > > + CVS repository. Its sources are located under projects/binup= > > + hierarchy. You can usual methods of retriving FreeBSD sources > > + to access them. NOTE: cvsup users should use projects= -all > > + cvsup collection to access projects under projects/ hie= rarchy

> > =20 > >

A mailing list has been setup for this project. Please post > > all questions, patches, etc to the >=20 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message --YaSFhaLO3hpMipqe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvhgxYACgkQXVIcjOaxUBanSACgr9OyJIn4MwXBwihH3OEu1a3Z v00AnjtUtKnTuQ1fu2sXVxsD9FxLkbgS =HU7J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YaSFhaLO3hpMipqe-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Nov 1 15:36:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 7FF6B37B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:36:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:36:21 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Alexey Zelkin Cc: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Subject: Re: proposed projects/updater.html update ... Message-ID: <20011101153621.A17136@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011101183432.A2120@phantom.cris.net>; from phantom@freebsd.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:34:32PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > any objections against this patch ? Looks good to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message