From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 6:32:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B7D37B403 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9352F7565; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF271D8F; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:32:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Don Wilde Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3E6941.C822FFB3@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Don Wilde wrote: :Mike Meyer wrote: :> :> Don Wilde types: : :> > The reality is that the Linux/BSD/BEos/XXX market IS tiny :> > except for those outside the "West", and they don't pay cash. :> :> "Tiny" doesn't mean "worthless". Adobe is still developing and :> maintaining Frame for Solaris, HP-UX and AIX, at least on non-intel :> hardware. The the Windows and MacIntosh versions may be required to :> make the Unix version pay for itself. :> :Granted, but Solaris and HP-UX and AIX users are used to paying for s/w, :and have been brainwashed into believing that payware is going to be :better than freeware. As have their bosses who approve the invoices. You come off like you have an axe to grind. Put it down, breathe, relax, and think. Commercial software does not automaticly equal bad software anymore than Open Source automaticly equals good software. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 6:58:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08CA37B405 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f61DwCa37550; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 07:58:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B3F2C67.7542DCD2@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 07:57:59 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You come off like you have an axe to grind. Put it down, breathe, relax, > and think. Commercial software does not automaticly equal bad software > anymore than Open Source automaticly equals good software. > > Jamie Bowden > Hi, Jamie - There are times when I'd like to sink a big juicy axe, yes. As I said before, I use Corel Draw and I pay their fees to be legal. I do think, I judge, and I make the decisions I have to make. That doesn't mean I like the decisions I have to make. I _really_ don't trust any Microsoft machine in my office, but I have few options because software I need (chip design, mostly) doesn't exist anywhere else except on megabuck platforms. As I said before, Corel is making its decisions on a profit basis, as is Apple, as do we all. They have every right to do whatever they please. I'm sure lots of Corel insiders decry the decision to drop Linux support as much as I am revolted by the fact that I have little choice except to allow M$ in my office. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 8:28:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6804837B406 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29546; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:28:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:30:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: Cc: Francisco Reyes , Rahul Siddharthan , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? In-Reply-To: <20010622222427.C2061@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: <20010701112022.P27979-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:01:48AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Where does mutt places it's files? > > Doesn't seem to be ~/Mail even though it just created that dir. > > Man page didn't help. > > I think the confusion here may be that mutt saves files in the pwd > unless you tell it otherwise. Prepend a '=' to the name for it to go > to the mail directory. On the contrary. I found that by default it leaves the mail in /var/mail I am going to try to use a pre-configured mutt file and see if I can configure it to use the same directory as Pine. That way I would be able to switch back and forth. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 9:44: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0366937B403 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:44:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1099"@[136.142.20.138]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5F0Z6FSAS002VRE@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 12:44:01 EST Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 12:45:59 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3F7DF7.BAFAE126@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> <15166.21045.915907.930733@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Linux represents Pareto's law: less than 15% of the market that causes more than 85% of the costs (custumer support, complaints, etc). The linux commercial market made a mistake; they ported to an inmature platform and an unfriendly community. If we could focus on them saving their act (based on these latest Microsoft event), the world would be safe and balance restored 8). Now...what about Borland? Is kylix also dying? I would like to see that for FreeBSD too. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 10:56: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F5C37B406 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.247.143.73.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.73]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01013; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f61HtoW00592; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:55:50 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010701105550.A296@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010622222427.C2061@blossom.cjclark.org> <20010701112022.P27979-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010701112022.P27979-100000@zoraida.natserv.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 11:30:06AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 11:30:06AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:01:48AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Where does mutt places it's files? > > > Doesn't seem to be ~/Mail even though it just created that dir. > > > Man page didn't help. > > > > I think the confusion here may be that mutt saves files in the pwd > > unless you tell it otherwise. Prepend a '=' to the name for it to go > > to the mail directory. > > > On the contrary. I found that by default it leaves the mail in /var/mail I meant where mail was saved when you 's'ave it, not where it is left if you do nothing. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 11:28: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arcadia.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CEA437B405 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by arcadia.megadeb.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f61IU1R29592 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:30:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:30:01 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) Message-ID: <20010701203001.B29355@arcadia.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> <15166.21045.915907.930733@guru.mired.org> <3B3F7DF7.BAFAE126@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B3F7DF7.BAFAE126@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 12:45:59PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 12:45:59PM -0700, Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > > Now...what about Borland? Is kylix also dying? I would like to see that Kylix was released with a boatload of hoopla, then trashed in at least three separate reviews I read. I admit, I haven't tried it, but judging by some of the comments from people who've actually tried to be productive with this thing, it's pretty horrible. IIRC, Borland slashed the price on Kylix right after some of the initial reviews, but it seeminly hasn't helped much. I doubt it will die, but it needs a thorough makeover. I'm also not sure of a FreeBSD port. There's enough trouble getting NVIDIA's suits to recognize FreeBSD as a potential market, and I think there may be the same trouble for Kylix. I could be wrong though. Nahh.. ;) -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 1 11:57:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ctonet.it (mail.ctonet.it [212.110.160.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3552D37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Received: from olgeni.olgeni (ppp-25.dial6.ctonet.it [212.110.181.25]) by mail.ctonet.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8686013ABA for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:57:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (bogus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgeni.olgeni (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f61Iw9383643 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:58:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:58:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Jimmy Olgeni X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3F2C67.7542DCD2@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: <20010701205646.O71076-100000@olgeni.olgeni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Don Wilde wrote: > machine in my office, but I have few options because software I need > (chip design, mostly) doesn't exist anywhere else except on megabuck > platforms. As I said before, Corel is making its decisions on a profit This made me wonder: are any Xilinx-like programs planned for Mac OS X? -- jimmy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 2 10:31:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from network.edgegate.net (network.edgegate.com [209.239.242.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D209837B403 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from witt@cylogistics.com) Received: from mallard (ip61.mountain-view6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.100.61]) by network.edgegate.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 3-41781U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA12875; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Don Witt" To: "Eric Wayte" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:23:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My understanding is that Bob Bruce will be marketing the Slackware stuff. This is news about BSDCentral. I am not to please with it either. They are no bigger than we are. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Wayte > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 11:54 PM > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral > > > Subject says it all. It appears that WindRiver is making over the Mall > and is using BSDCentral to fulfill basic needs until the renovation is > complete. > > Just when I wanted to order another FreeBSD polo... :-( > > Also, take a look at what's happened to the Walnut Creek web page > (http://www.wccdrom.com/). > > Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on? First the Slackware > merchandise disappeared, then the 4.3 difficulties and now BSD Central is > selling a subset of the Mall merchandise? I don't mind change, but when > things disappear without an explanation... > > > Eric Wayte > University DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 2 10:38:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (pixpat.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718A937B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f620rha00373; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:53:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:53:43 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Iain Templeton Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010701205343.A269@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010627145956.00ab4e30@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from iain@research.canon.com.au on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 09:48:52AM +1000 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 28 June 2001 at 9:48:52 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> At 16:58 2001-06-27 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: >>> Wow! A bank that doesn't charge you fees. You lucky Americans! >>> >>> Lets see, that'll be $5 for going below $500, $1.50 per other bank ATM >>> transaction. $1.something for an other bank EFTPOS transaction. Now, >>> where's my 0.25% PA interest? Lets not talk about overdrafts... >> >> Well, overdraft fees I find justifiable. The rest of them, I do not. >> Most importantly, what I meant was no minimum balance and no fees >> related to that. >> > Yes true, I tend to keep in the black, so have no problems. Even my > credit card. > >> Most banks, even in the US, do have monthly minimums and charge you >> "account maintenance fees" if you go below that. That is the fee I >> object to, and refuse to open an account in a bank that has one. >> > Yes, my bank recently upped the account maintenance fee to $2000, that > is just wrong. Hmm. I think you mean: s/account maintenance fee/minimum balance/ s/my bank/ANZ/ Agreed, that pisses me off too. >> For eaxmple, when I moved to the little town I live in now, I went >> from bank to bank looking for the right one. I explained to each one >> of them my conditions (the smart ones are willing to negotiate). >> One rep smiled and said: "You will not find that in Rhinelander." >> >> I did find it, and I came back to her to tell her so. >> > We have basically 5 banks in Australia, and a number of other smaller > groups who provide banking services (some of them are credit unions, > others are overseas banks). Generally the big 4 (+1) tend to have the > highest fees. And they're rising all the time. >> Anyway, the reason I object to this fee is that it is unfair and >> ridiculous. When you deposit money in a bank, the bank takes your >> money, invests it, and makes more money from it. They have a lot >> of nerve to charge you a fee for depositing less than $500 (or any >> amount). > > I think the one I find the hardest to comprehend is the service fees. If > I make more than 6 electronic (ie Internet, phone, EFTPOS, ATM) > transactions a month, I get charge $1.50 per excess transaction. > > I only get 2 over the counter transactions as well. Not that I need > them. Hmm. I'm beginning to wonder if this is ANZ after all. I hope not. > It's funny really, the banks make barely anything out of personal > banking, yet charge the highest fees. It looks as if they are > forcing the individual business units to make the highest profits, > rather than perhaps spreading things out across the entire business. A while back in Germany I was left with the distinct impression that the commercial banks were no longer interested in individual accounts. Maybe the same thing is happening in Australia. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 2 11:14:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB8437B406 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A3034D6; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:14:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Don Witt Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The new Slackware store is up and running, concurrent with the launch of Slackware 8.0. It's at http://store.slackware.com/ BSDCentral sells FreeBSD 4.3 for $39.95, while LinuxCentral sells it for 25% less - go figure! Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Don Witt wrote: > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:23:47 -0700 > From: Don Witt > To: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral > > My understanding is that Bob Bruce will be marketing the Slackware stuff. > > This is news about BSDCentral. I am not to please with it either. They are > no bigger than we are. > > > Don > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Wayte > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 11:54 PM > > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > > Subject: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral > > > > > > Subject says it all. It appears that WindRiver is making over the Mall > > and is using BSDCentral to fulfill basic needs until the renovation is > > complete. > > > > Just when I wanted to order another FreeBSD polo... :-( > > > > Also, take a look at what's happened to the Walnut Creek web page > > (http://www.wccdrom.com/). > > > > Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on? First the Slackware > > merchandise disappeared, then the 4.3 difficulties and now BSD Central is > > selling a subset of the Mall merchandise? I don't mind change, but when > > things disappear without an explanation... > > > > > > Eric Wayte > > University DBA > > Univ. of Central Florida > > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 2 17:19:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218D537B405; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0AF5169D; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 00:24:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E75C8B10; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:04:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix, from userid 683) id E5785328F5; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:19:21 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB50D328F2; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:19:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:19:21 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <20010701205343.A269@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Yes, my bank recently upped the account maintenance fee to $2000, that > > is just wrong. > > Hmm. I think you mean: > > s/account maintenance fee/minimum balance/ > s/my bank/ANZ/ > > Agreed, that pisses me off too. > Yes, right on all three counts. I don't have a problem maintaining $2k, but I can imagine many people who are far worse off than me having trouble. Two years ago when I was a student (I almost wrote stupid again, I'm getting good at that little slip :-) I doubt that I had my balance above $2k for more than a couple of months (and that was only after vacation employment). > > We have basically 5 banks in Australia, and a number of other smaller > > groups who provide banking services (some of them are credit unions, > > others are overseas banks). Generally the big 4 (+1) tend to have the > > highest fees. > > And they're rising all the time. > And nobody seems to be trying to do anything about it. > >> Anyway, the reason I object to this fee is that it is unfair and > >> ridiculous. When you deposit money in a bank, the bank takes your > >> money, invests it, and makes more money from it. They have a lot > >> of nerve to charge you a fee for depositing less than $500 (or any > >> amount). > > > > I think the one I find the hardest to comprehend is the service fees. If > > I make more than 6 electronic (ie Internet, phone, EFTPOS, ATM) > > transactions a month, I get charge $1.50 per excess transaction. > > > > I only get 2 over the counter transactions as well. Not that I need > > them. > > Hmm. I'm beginning to wonder if this is ANZ after all. I hope not. > It is. > > It's funny really, the banks make barely anything out of personal > > banking, yet charge the highest fees. It looks as if they are > > forcing the individual business units to make the highest profits, > > rather than perhaps spreading things out across the entire business. > > A while back in Germany I was left with the distinct impression that > the commercial banks were no longer interested in individual > accounts. Maybe the same thing is happening in Australia. > I suspect so. I'm just surprised that it is soo high. I honestly think that if it costs them $1.50 for every extra transaction, then there is something seriously wrong with their transaction system. Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 2 21:42:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E3E37B405; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.135.36.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.36]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26591; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f634g2Z01148; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:42:02 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Iain Templeton Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010702214202.D312@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010701205343.A269@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from iain@research.canon.com.au on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:19:21AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:19:21AM +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Yes, my bank recently upped the account maintenance fee to $2000, that > > > is just wrong. > > > > Hmm. I think you mean: > > > > s/account maintenance fee/minimum balance/ > > s/my bank/ANZ/ > > > > Agreed, that pisses me off too. > > > Yes, right on all three counts. I don't have a problem maintaining $2k, > but I can imagine many people who are far worse off than me having > trouble. Two years ago when I was a student (I almost wrote stupid > again, I'm getting good at that little slip :-) I doubt that I had my > balance above $2k for more than a couple of months (and that was only > after vacation employment). Banks often have special deals for college kids and younger. Not that banks are such nice institutions, but they'd like to keep you when you grow up and invest more money in them and pay more fees. They count on the next point below. Oh, and then there's odd cases like where I went to school, Maryland. By law, banks cannot charge fees to people below a certain age. It was twenty or twenty-one I think. They still scrammbled to sign up students almost as much as the credit card companies. > > > We have basically 5 banks in Australia, and a number of other smaller > > > groups who provide banking services (some of them are credit unions, > > > others are overseas banks). Generally the big 4 (+1) tend to have the > > > highest fees. > > > > And they're rising all the time. > > > And nobody seems to be trying to do anything about it. $1.50 here and there is below the threashold where most people notice it. Hopefully, even with 5 banks, the one that offers low, or ideally, no fees will be able to pull business from the others. However, for $4.50 or $6 a month, most people would find the rather tedious task of finding a new bank, signing lots of papers, etc. not worth the effort. There is no real incentive for one bank to lower fees. > > >> Anyway, the reason I object to this fee is that it is unfair and > > >> ridiculous. When you deposit money in a bank, the bank takes your > > >> money, invests it, and makes more money from it. They have a lot > > >> of nerve to charge you a fee for depositing less than $500 (or any > > >> amount). > > > > > > I think the one I find the hardest to comprehend is the service fees. If > > > I make more than 6 electronic (ie Internet, phone, EFTPOS, ATM) > > > transactions a month, I get charge $1.50 per excess transaction. > > > > > > I only get 2 over the counter transactions as well. Not that I need > > > them. > > > > Hmm. I'm beginning to wonder if this is ANZ after all. I hope not. > > > It is. > > > > It's funny really, the banks make barely anything out of personal > > > banking, yet charge the highest fees. It looks as if they are > > > forcing the individual business units to make the highest profits, > > > rather than perhaps spreading things out across the entire business. > > > > A while back in Germany I was left with the distinct impression that > > the commercial banks were no longer interested in individual > > accounts. Maybe the same thing is happening in Australia. > > > I suspect so. I'm just surprised that it is soo high. I honestly think > that if it costs them $1.50 for every extra transaction, then there is > something seriously wrong with their transaction system. ATMs are not proving to be the money savers banks thought they would be. Now a days (in the US anyway), banks are typically open with teller service _longer_ hours than they were a decade or two ago. PLUS, people expect 24-hour ATM, phone, and on-line banking on top of that. Despite our complaining, banks offer a _lot_ more services than they did in the past. The customers have and always will have to pay for the services whether it be in fees or reduced returns on investments. Some of it is kind of like software market, just pile on more and more silly features that very few people use as an excuse to charge more and more for the product. Not that I don't find the idea that when I use another bank's ATM machine I have to pay $1.50 service charge to the bank who owns the ATM, _plus_ another $1.50 to my bank for the honor of getting my money from someone else's machine a bit too much. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 6:43:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59A237B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15HQSS-0009al-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:43:16 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63DhGn37521 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:43:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:43:15 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I saw a note that RH Linux aquired the Cygnus compiler. What is the deal with this? How is it different/better/worse than gcc? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:15:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (pixpat.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7184437B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f632IA400368; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:18:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:18:10 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Lucas Cc: Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 05:47:56PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 26 June 2001 at 17:47:56 -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:42:30PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >>> I'm not sure how you formed this speculation. Meaning no disrespect >>> to Jordan, his contributions to the FreeBSD OS are tiny compared to >>> the efforts of the rest of the developer team as a whole. FreeBSD >>> evolved beyond the point where one person carries the project a very >>> long time ago. >> >> Traffic on the mailing lists (or, at least, average message size) might >> drop a bit though :-) > > Hey, he said he still has 20 hours a week for FreeBSD! That's an > awful lot of email. :) > > Seriously, the one post I'd have any concern about is the "FreeBSD > Spokesman" that Jordan has been basically filling. It's not an > official title by any means, but if one of us press sorts wants a > quote on FreeBSD, we generally call Jordan. Hmm. There's a certain truth about that. It became quite evident at the FreeBSD BoF at USENIX last week. > I'm sure that Jordan will still be happy to spout off about > anything, though. > > We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the > FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. > Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, > Greg Lehey for the job. ;) Well, thanks for the thought. > (/me looks for incoming fire from Australia, and ducks) /me wonders what makes mwlucas think that he's in Australia. Seriously, that's really a core team job. It's true that we have implicitly been letting jkh perform the function, mainly because he does it well, but if he starts doing it less well, we'll rearrange responsibilities. I don't think that anybody really thinks I'm a jkh replacement :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:27:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339E937B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63FRFb04337 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:27:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA62648 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:27:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:27:15 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:43:15PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I saw a note that RH Linux aquired the Cygnus compiler. What is the deal > with this? How is it different/better/worse than gcc? How about posting URLs? FWIW, Red Hat acquired Cygnus, compiler and all, quite a while ago (soon after their IPO days when they had a lot of paper money). They also included a "non-official" gcc (called gcc-2.96-RH or some such thing) with their 7.0 and 7.1 releases, because gcc-2.95.x wasn't good enough (particularly for C++) and gcc-3.0 wasn't ready. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. gcc-3.0 has now been released, and though Red Hat got a lot of flak (even from the gcc developers) for "jumping the gun", it is possible that the additional feedback helped gcc3 get finished faster. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:38:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7CE37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from host89-49.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.49.89] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 15HSFk-0003eo-00; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 15:38:16 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f63FcFT35489; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:38:15 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:38:27 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan , j mckitrick From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The other thing it might be referring to is the "Cygwin" compiler used to port unix utils to Windows. (A free compiler for Win32 environments) I don't know all the details, and Cygwin may or may not be based on some version of GCC, but its certainlt available from the RH website family. ;-) At 17:27 03/07/01 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> I saw a note that RH Linux aquired the Cygnus compiler. What is the deal >> with this? How is it different/better/worse than gcc? > >How about posting URLs? > >FWIW, Red Hat acquired Cygnus, compiler and all, quite a while ago >(soon after their IPO days when they had a lot of paper money). They >also included a "non-official" gcc (called gcc-2.96-RH or some such >thing) with their 7.0 and 7.1 releases, because gcc-2.95.x wasn't good >enough (particularly for C++) and gcc-3.0 wasn't ready. Maybe that's >what you're thinking of. gcc-3.0 has now been released, and though >Red Hat got a lot of flak (even from the gcc developers) for "jumping >the gun", it is possible that the additional feedback helped gcc3 get >finished faster. > >R > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:39:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096F637B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15HSGo-000DSd-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:39:22 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63FdL239559 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:39:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:39:21 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703163921.B39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:27:15PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:27:15PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: | > I saw a note that RH Linux aquired the Cygnus compiler. What is the deal | > with this? How is it different/better/worse than gcc? | | How about posting URLs? The article had nothing else to say on this, and I thought it was public knowledge anyway. | FWIW, Red Hat acquired Cygnus, compiler and all, quite a while ago Ah, that's what I thought. | also included a "non-official" gcc (called gcc-2.96-RH or some such | thing) with their 7.0 and 7.1 releases, because gcc-2.95.x wasn't good | enough (particularly for C++) and gcc-3.0 wasn't ready. Maybe that's | what you're thinking of. gcc-3.0 has now been released, and though | Red Hat got a lot of flak (even from the gcc developers) for "jumping | the gun", it is possible that the additional feedback helped gcc3 get | finished faster. Okay, I wasn't sure if the Cygnus compiler was a different version of gcc (code forking), and advance release version (evidently), or something altogether different. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:42:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385F237B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63FgUb05961 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:42:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA63219 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:42:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:42:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Doyle Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703174230.X40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Doyle , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1>; from relyod@cooperationireland.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:38:27PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Doyle said on Jul 3, 2001 at 16:38:27: > The other thing it might be referring to is the "Cygwin" compiler > used to port unix utils to Windows. (A free compiler for Win32 environments) > > I don't know all the details, and Cygwin may or may not be based on > some version of GCC, but its certainlt available from the RH website > family. ;-) Actually, Cygwin is an environment, which includes gcc and other developer utilities for porting unix programs, and also a bash shell, various standard commandline unix utilities, etc. I've used it when I had no option, and it's quite nice: you get the user-friendliness of unix and the stability of windows :) (BTW GCC continues to have its copyrights transferred to the FSF so it's not really owned by Red Hat, though RH does pay several developers. I'm not sure about Cygwin.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:45:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABB337B406 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15HSN0-000DbE-00; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:46 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63Fjkc39688; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:46 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Doyle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703164546.C39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> <20010703174230.X40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010703174230.X40756@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:42:30PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Actually, Cygwin is an environment, which includes gcc and other | developer utilities for porting unix programs, and also a bash shell, | various standard commandline unix utilities, etc. I've used it when I Win32->Unix or vice-versa? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:46:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9DC37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63FkHb06535 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:46:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA63393 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:46:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:46:17 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703174617.Y40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> <20010703163921.B39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010703163921.B39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:39:21PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Jul 3, 2001 at 16:39:21: > > Okay, I wasn't sure if the Cygnus compiler was a different version of gcc > (code forking), and advance release version (evidently), or something > altogether different. Originally, the Cygnus compiler was a fork, called egcs. They were dissatisfied with the closed nature of "official" gcc development and its slow progress since the 2.7 releases. So they forked the code and had more open, CVS-based development, etc. But they continued to transfer their copyrights to the FSF, while they improved it greatly over the old gcc (and included several compilers -- C++, objC, F77, etc -- in the same compiler tree) so at some point RMS decided that it's ok to make them the official GCC maintainers, and they got reunified with the "official" gcc... The other thing is the expansion of GCC got changed at that point. It's now the "GNU Compiler Collection" not the "GNU C Compiler". R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 8:50:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D8C37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63Fo5b06892 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA63539 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:50:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? Message-ID: <20010703175005.Z40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , Mike Doyle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> <20010703174230.X40756@lpt.ens.fr> <20010703164546.C39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010703164546.C39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:46PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Jul 3, 2001 at 16:45:46: > | Actually, Cygwin is an environment, which includes gcc and other > | developer utilities for porting unix programs, and also a bash shell, > | various standard commandline unix utilities, etc. I've used it when I > > Win32->Unix or vice-versa? Running Unix programs or compiling Unix code on a Windows machine. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 9: 1:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D608F37B407 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gchil0@pop.uky.edu) Received: from ci989678-a.pop.uky.edu ([65.8.167.122]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010703160138.HOAH13982.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci989678-a.pop.uky.edu> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:01:38 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010703115913.00a48b70@pop.uky.edu> X-Sender: gchil0@pop.uky.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:01:22 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Greg Childers Subject: Re: cygnus compiler? In-Reply-To: <20010703174230.X40756@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703144315.A37456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703172715.W40756@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.5.32.20010703163827.0082e370@199.107.2.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:42 AM 7/3/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >you get the user-friendliness of >unix and the stability of windows :) For what more could you possibly ask? :-) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 9:18:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5EE37B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f63GIEc10060; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:18:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:18:14 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Iain Templeton , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010703091814.A8129@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010701205343.A269@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <20010702214202.D312@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010702214202.D312@blossom.cjclark.org>; from cristjc@earthlink.net on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:42:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:42:02PM -0700, Crist J. Clark wrote: >=20 > Not that I don't find the idea that when I use another bank's ATM > machine I have to pay $1.50 service charge to the bank who owns the > ATM, _plus_ another $1.50 to my bank for the honor of getting my money > from someone else's machine a bit too much. What I really don't get is that a substantial number of people are more upset that they have to pay the owner of a machine the cost well over $50,000 and has hugh maintnance costs due to its mechanical complexity then that they have to pay their own bank a similar amount to transfer a few thousands bytes of data. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7QfBEXY6L6fI4GtQRAlpPAKDYY2VtnU9xr4AfNemlA81yujVmOACgj+ep 6PDWGXX2d3Ibwyy6IANHT+c= =yvTl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 13:14:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983BC37B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA86507; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:14:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:14:42 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010703161441.A86487@blackhelicopters.org> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:18:10PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc's trimmed] On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:18:10PM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > /me wonders what makes mwlucas think that he's in Australia. Uh, heard it from someone somewhere... my apologies. > Seriously, that's really a core team job. It's true that we have > implicitly been letting jkh perform the function, mainly because he > does it well, but if he starts doing it less well, we'll rearrange > responsibilities. I don't think that anybody really thinks I'm a jkh > replacement :-) I'm glad to hear that's covered. I'm not sure what could replace him. That sort of job takes a certain type of personality that's short in the computing field in general (myself certainly not excepted!). ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 13:19:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FAA37B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14998; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:18:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:18:43 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:18 PM 7/2/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the >> FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. >> Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, >> Greg Lehey for the job. ;) > >Well, thanks for the thought. With all due respect for Greg and his software contributions, he has failed to support the BSD philosophy by refusing to oppose the nastiness of the GPL (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). I therefore think that he would not make an appropriate spokesman. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 13:27:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-104-161.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467FF37B406; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 124D967BA0; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:27:10 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010703132710.A39513@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:18:43PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:18:43PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:18 PM 7/2/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >=20 > >> We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the > >> FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. > >> Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, > >> Greg Lehey for the job. ;) > > > >Well, thanks for the thought. >=20 > With all due respect for Greg and his software contributions, he has > failed to support the BSD philosophy by refusing to oppose the nastiness= =20 > of the GPL (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). I=20 > therefore think that he would not make an appropriate spokesman. Brett Glass for FreeBSD spokesperson! (*Teeheheheeehahaa*) Kris --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7QiqdWry0BWjoQKURAvIJAKC+8CqUiWPgPcHrz3Uw+PBgSP5YkQCgvJnj Wj5/QrNChFUutrTp3lfgE8c= =horZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 13:41:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB52E37B403; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f63Kexs09605; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:40:59 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:18:43PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:18:43PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:18 PM 7/2/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >> We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the > >> FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. > >> Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, > >> Greg Lehey for the job. ;) > > > >Well, thanks for the thought. > > With all due respect for Greg and his software contributions, he has > failed to support the BSD philosophy by refusing to oppose the nastiness > of the GPL (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). I > therefore think that he would not make an appropriate spokesman. I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great things for FreeBSD over the past 7 or 8 years. To be perfectly frank, he has done a hell of a lot more for FreeBSD than you, Brett. Get a grip, Brett, the number of people who care about this whole ideological crusade against GPL that you are on can be counted on one hand. Brett, no one cares. Give it a rest! Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 13:46:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330FC37B403; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f63Kjwl24346; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16491; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16487; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:45:57 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Josef Grosch Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) In-Reply-To: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological > test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great things for As boringly anti-GPL Mr. Glass is, this is not a "random" ideological test. It is very important to the future of FreeBSD that its most visible participants be someone "opposed" to the "competition". Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 14:21: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E5437B403; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:20:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15712; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 15:20:36 -0600 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:40 PM 7/3/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: >I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological >test of yours It's not at all a "random ideological test." It's an ethical standard. While some embrace the GPL as if it were some form of religion, the fact is that it's the instrument of an unethical and destructive agenda that's counter to the BSD philosophy of sharing and of TRULY free software. >Brett, no one cares. Give it a rest! If no one cares, then why do GPL zealots suddenly appear in any forum where I deign to mention that it might... just might... not be Holy Writ handed down from on high? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 14:29:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4219337B406; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15797; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:29:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703152115.00cbab80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 15:28:52 -0600 To: James Howard , Josef Grosch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:45 PM 7/3/2001, James Howard wrote: >As boringly anti-GPL Mr. Glass is, this is not a "random" ideological >test. It is very important to the future of FreeBSD that its most visible >participants be someone "opposed" to the "competition". I agree. Any spokesman for FreeBSD should point out its licensing as an advantage -- which it is, especially in the embedded arena. If I were a spokesman (If I were, I'd be inclined to share the role with one or preferably two other people rather than going it alone), I would make sure that this was pointed out, but certainly wouldn't harp on that one string all the time. There's a lot more about FreeBSD, and the BSDs in general, that's worthwhile. --Brett P.S. -- I'm sorry if some of the things I write about the GPL seem "boring" at times. I think this occurs because the GPL zealots tend to parrot the writings and assertions from the FSF Web site endlessly, and those tired assertions and arguments (which are designed to sound compelling but in fact are fallacious and misleading) must be refuted for each new audience. If you're probably saying, "Yawn.... I've heard this all before." I'm in the process of working up some Web pages addressing those issues, so that they can be answered with a URL rather than a lot of text. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 14:45:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF2937B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f63LjDX10209; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:45:12 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: James Howard Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010703144512.A9955@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:57PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:57PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological > > test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great things for > > As boringly anti-GPL Mr. Glass is, this is not a "random" ideological > test. It is very important to the future of FreeBSD that its most visible > participants be someone "opposed" to the "competition". And you are admitted to the bar to practice law in which state? No, I am not being flippant. Has anyone ever seen a serious legal opinion on the various licenses? Never mind what spin Brett Glass, microsoft, Stallman, Eric Raymond, et al has to say. They all have an ax to grid. I have never heard of any of these license, with the exception of the BSD license in the USL lawsuit, being tested. This includes the full appeals process. And if a large corporation like microsoft or Exxon chose to grab some GPL code, make a product out of it and sell it, who is going to stop them. Name the person(s) who have the resources to take them into court and put up a serious legal fight? Don't expect the US government to take our side. microsoft is weeks away from a clean get away even though they were caught red-handed in volation of Sherman anti-trust law which has a long and well tested legal history. Bretts positions are very interesting but as a practical matter they are useless and only divide us. We should be forming alliance with the Linux camps not allowing debates like the round and the sharp end of egg to cause us to fight which, in the end, only helps microsoft. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 15:20:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D984037B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78002 invoked by uid 100); 3 Jul 2001 22:19:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15170.17678.683773.883831@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:19:58 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703152115.00cbab80@localhost> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703152115.00cbab80@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just can't resist adding: I'm sorry if some of the things I write about the GPL seem "boring" at times. I think this occurs because the anti-GPL zealots tend to repeat the same mindless assertions endlessly, and those tired assertions and arguments (which are designed to sound compelling but in fact are fallacious and misleading) must be refuted for each new audience. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 16: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A4037B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2067"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5I6PDNWEA004VRZ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:00:15 EST Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:01:09 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B424EB5.3F6F6FBD@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9AE13D624221FEE7F98CE9DD" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703152115.00cbab80@localhost> <15170.17678.683773.883831@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9AE13D624221FEE7F98CE9DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me the GPL discussion nonsense finished two years ago. Write an article, post it in a webpage and ignore the comments. That's what I did; two months after I had absolute peace. Pedro. Mike Meyer wrote: > > I just can't resist adding: > > I'm sorry if some of the things I write about the GPL seem "boring" at > times. I think this occurs because the anti-GPL zealots tend to repeat > the same mindless assertions endlessly, and those tired assertions and > arguments (which are designed to sound compelling but in fact are > fallacious and misleading) must be refuted for each new audience. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------9AE13D624221FEE7F98CE9DD Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------9AE13D624221FEE7F98CE9DD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 16:18:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 032E937B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 80006 invoked by uid 100); 3 Jul 2001 23:18:08 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15170.21168.692987.119362@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:18:08 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) In-Reply-To: <3B424EB5.3F6F6FBD@pitt.edu> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703152115.00cbab80@localhost> <15170.17678.683773.883831@guru.mired.org> <3B424EB5.3F6F6FBD@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni types: > For me the GPL discussion nonsense finished two years ago. Write an > article, post it in a webpage and ignore the comments. That's what I > did; two months after I had absolute peace. Well, I thought I was done with it 20 years ago. It sort of surprised me to see a bunch of tired old notions being trotted out again, and used to drive a wedge between open software factions. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 16:42: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sociostat.org (h00a0cc6007cd.ne.mediaone.net [24.91.227.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404D237B406 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@sociostat.org) Received: from eric by sociostat.org with local (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 15HZFd-0004SC-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:06:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:06:37 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Licensing Philosophy Message-ID: <20010703190637.A17080@sociostat.org> Reply-To: cheney@soc.umass.edu References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i From: Eric Cheney Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Folks. I'm new to FreeBSD. I've been using debian prior to this; still got a debian box running. I like my BSD box very much, though. Anyway, I'm new to the FreeBSD philosophy too. Here a lot of opinions about it on this list....I'd like to know more. Can someone point me to one or two URL's that have some introductory discussions about the licensing of FreeBSD? Thank you, Eric Cheney -- Eric Cheney cheney@soc.umass.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 17: 6:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6921537B406 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA87343; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:06:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:06:12 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: cheney@soc.umass.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy Message-ID: <20010703200612.A87317@blackhelicopters.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> <20010703190637.A17080@sociostat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010703190637.A17080@sociostat.org>; from eric@sociostat.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:06:37PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At the risk of self-aggrandizement: http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ferrets.html On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:06:37PM -0400, Eric Cheney wrote: > > Hi Folks. I'm new to FreeBSD. I've been using debian > prior to this; still got a debian box running. I like > my BSD box very much, though. Anyway, I'm > new to the FreeBSD philosophy too. Here a lot of opinions > about it on this list....I'd like to know more. Can someone > point me to one or two URL's that have some introductory > discussions about the licensing of FreeBSD? > > Thank you, > Eric Cheney > > -- > > Eric Cheney > cheney@soc.umass.edu > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 17:29:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3FB937B406 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 32814 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2001 00:29:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 4 Jul 2001 00:29:27 -0000 Message-ID: <3B426349.B50B1A4D@outpost.co.nz> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:28:57 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > Get a grip, Brett, the number of people who care about this whole > ideological crusade against GPL that you are on can be counted on one > hand. Brett, no one cares. Give it a rest! What I find most entertaining is the similarity between Brett's view of the GPL and Bill Gates' (as detailed in his recent interview - I read the BG IV and thought Brett must have been ghostwriting for him). And therein I think lies the simple appeal of the GPL to many people - if Bill Gates doesn't like it, it must be good. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 17:40:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C4437B403; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f640dnO05452; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:39:49 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:27:34 +0200 To: James Howard , Josef Grosch From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:45 PM -0400 7/3/01, James Howard wrote: > As boringly anti-GPL Mr. Glass is, this is not a "random" ideological > test. It is very important to the future of FreeBSD that its most visible > participants be someone "opposed" to the "competition". I couldn't disagree more. To make ourselves public enemies of Linux, is to throw our own lot in with Microsoft. Even if the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, that's how people will see us. IMO, if anything, we should take a "may the best OS win" attitude towards Linux, and throw in with them against Microsoft. However, for the spokesperson role, I think we probably want someone who can rise above the religious license issues altogether, and take a more pragmatic attitude, perhaps something along the lines of "Hey, we just want stuff that works". -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 17:42:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DB137B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2680"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5IAAHXXMW002T6M@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:42:48 EST Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:43:39 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B4266BB.AE0CE214@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------251F3A44D55809447FD5FF3A" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <3B426349.B50B1A4D@outpost.co.nz> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------251F3A44D55809447FD5FF3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something interesting; the only company attacking the GPL is Microsoft. This doesn't mean it's the only company that is being hurt though: while IBM, HP, SGI and the others are not attacking it, are pretty silent considering they have invested on Linux projects. The truth is the GPL is not a good business, but Microsoft is the only company doing real profits anyway. Pedro. Craig Harding wrote: > ... > > What I find most entertaining is the similarity between Brett's view of > the GPL and Bill Gates' (as detailed in his recent interview - I read > the BG IV and thought Brett must have been ghostwriting for him). And > therein I think lies the simple appeal of the GPL to many people - if > Bill Gates doesn't like it, it must be good. > > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 > Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------251F3A44D55809447FD5FF3A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------251F3A44D55809447FD5FF3A-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 17:53:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F48437B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f640rO745505 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:53:24 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:53:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document root of the website? If so, what are you doing about files which you may not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? I'm quite sure I can use the Apache "files" directive to restrict access. But I was hoping for other suggestions. thanks -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 20: 8:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26E1637B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 84999 invoked by uid 100); 4 Jul 2001 03:08:42 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15170.35002.384230.17694@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:08:42 -0500 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? In-Reply-To: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> References: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille types: > I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How > do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document > root of the website? If so, what are you doing about files which you may > not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? I've set up a number of clients using Perforce instead of CVS. You can find the Perforce white paper on it at , and an old FAQ of mine that expands on that paper at . If you have any questions, drop me a note. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 20:15:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CABE537B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 25369 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2001 03:15:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2001 03:15:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 2124 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Jul 2001 03:15:28 -0000 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? References: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 03 Jul 2001 23:15:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <87k81pfkq7.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How > do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document > root of the website? If so, what are you doing about files which you may > not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? > > I'm quite sure I can use the Apache "files" directive to restrict access. > But I was hoping for other suggestions. Personally I maintain a Makefile which installs just the needed files with correct permissions to the right places. Apart from that you can use "cvs export" to get a copy without the CVS control files. I also saw a different approach: simply chmod the CVS directories to something that is not readable to apache (usually 700 should do); but this way you have to be mindful adding new directories. -- Arcady Genkin i=1; while 1, hilb(i); i=i+1; end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 21:40:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.knology.net (user-24-214-63-14.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FC2737B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: (qmail 23218 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2001 04:40:23 -0000 Received: from user-24-214-56-224.knology.net (HELO bsd.havk.org) (24.214.56.224) by user-24-214-63-14.knology.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 2001 04:40:23 -0000 Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 06BA11A7B5; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:39:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:39:53 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? Message-ID: <20010703233953.A1208@bsd.havk.org> References: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:53:22PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:53:22PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How > do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document > root of the website? If so, what are you doing about files which you may > not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? CVSup is your friend. Many gazillions of thanks to John Polstra and everyone else that made it possible. Up until very recently I had a handful of sites load balanced across 4 servers that were CVSup'ing from a master server that would rebuild the websites every ten minutes from CVS. The whole process is "relatively atomic" and in my case with a handful of sites and several thousands of files over local LAN the updates were taking only a few seconds to complete at most. The process went basically like this. On the master a cronjob ran at 5, 15, 25, 35, ... past each hour that did this. cvs co -rSTABLE make install And on each of the load-balanced servers another cronjob ran at 0, 10, 20, 30, ... past each hour that did this. cvsup supfile Also once a day I'd remove the tree on the master before doing a 'make install' so that any crufty files were removed. No doubt there's a better way but this worked flawlessly for me for a little over a year. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 22:45:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF91137B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20308; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:45:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703233914.0456e7f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 23:44:56 -0600 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010703144512.A9955@mooseriver.com> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:45 PM 7/3/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: >Has anyone ever seen a serious legal opinion on the >various licenses? Yes, actually, I have. But the arguments were poor and did not address the many serious ways in which the GPL violates essential principles of contract law. My personal opinion is that the GPL is an unconscionable meta-contract and is therefore unenforceable, but of course you never know how a judge will rule. >Never mind what spin Brett Glass, microsoft, Stallman, >Eric Raymond, et al has to say. They all have an ax to grid. Actually, I'm the only one on that list who has developed his own opinion without having an axe to grind. One of the reasons that I'm here is BECAUSE I believe that the GPL is unethical, not the other way around. >Bretts positions are very interesting but as a practical matter they are >useless and only divide us. I think that they're useful because they make the case for the BSD philosophy and BSD-style licensing. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 22:54:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2940E37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20373; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703234545.045afc30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 23:54:09 -0600 To: cheney@soc.umass.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20010703190637.A17080@sociostat.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:06 PM 7/3/2001, Eric Cheney wrote: >Hi Folks. I'm new to FreeBSD. I've been using debian >prior to this; still got a debian box running. I like >my BSD box very much, though. Anyway, I'm >new to the FreeBSD philosophy too. Here a lot of opinions >about it on this list....I'd like to know more. Can someone >point me to one or two URL's that have some introductory >discussions about the licensing of FreeBSD? From the FreeBSD Handbook, Section 1.3.2 (See http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/history.html): >The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be >used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a >significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not >mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we are definitely >not prepared to insist on it. We believe that our first and foremost >``mission'' is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever >purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the >widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one of the most fundamental >goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support.

> >That code in our source tree which falls under the GNU General Public >License (GPL) or Library General Public License (LGPL) comes with >slightly more strings attached, though at least on the side of enforced >access rather than the usual opposite. Due to the additional >complexities that can evolve in the commercial use of GPL software we >do, however, prefer software submitted under the more relaxed BSD >copyright when it's a reasonable option to do so. My personal opinion (and that of many others, though most of them are not as vocal as the GPL zealots) is that the FreeBSD project should take a much stronger stance against the GPL, because the GPL is contrary to the goal of having code that "may be used for any purpose and with no strings attached." I agree with Kirk McKusick, one of the "fathers" of BSD, who said: "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and then Berkeley had what we called "copycenter", which is "take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want." --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 23: 1:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FEE37B401; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20429; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:01:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703235706.04571a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:01:18 -0600 To: Brad Knowles , James Howard , Josef Grosch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:27 PM 7/3/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > I couldn't disagree more. To make ourselves public enemies of Linux, is to throw our own lot in with Microsoft. Even if the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, that's how people will see us. And I couldn't disagree more with the above statement. When Microsoft condemns the GPL, it's the pot calling the kettle black when in fact both are black. Both Microsoft and the FSF have expressed explicit desires for world domination. Both seek to destroy worthy companies and hurt innovative developers via predatory practices. I don't know about you, but I believe that world domination by EITHER of them would be a terrible thing! We have to point out that there is a third and better way. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 3 23: 4:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CAA37B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:04:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20468; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:03:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010704000202.00b8a400@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:03:38 -0600 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) In-Reply-To: <3B426349.B50B1A4D@outpost.co.nz> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:28 PM 7/3/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >And therein I think lies the simple appeal of the GPL to many people >- if Bill Gates doesn't like it, it must be good. See my remark earlier about pots and kettles. Both Microsoft AND the GPL are dangerous. The BSD philosophy is the only sane alternative to the megalomania of Gates and Stallman. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 0:50: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4998637B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johann@egenetics.com) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 15HhQ6-0003v6-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:49:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:49:58 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Fortune candidate? Message-ID: <20010704094958.A14947@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is from... http://www.pcworld.com/features/article/0,aid,52503,pg,2,00.asp ... which is part of an article on the history of the PC which was linked from daily.daemonnews. % I invented Ctrl-Alt-Delete, but Bill Gates made it famous. -- David Bradley, original IBM PC design team % (?) :-) -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 2:30:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2631B37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 15Hize-00045j-02; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:30:46 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f649LAp76174 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:21:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9hun64$29nb$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How > do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document > root of the website? Local checkout, rsync -Cr to document root. > If so, what are you doing about files which you may > not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? Frankly, I don't see the problem. If some kewl cracker dudez want to waste their time investigating those top secret CVS files and brag in 2600 about it, they're free to do so. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 4:52:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6C837B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 04:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from MAILER-DAEMON@dvl-software.com) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f64BqL752272; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:52:22 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from MAILER-DAEMON@dvl-software.com) Message-Id: <200107041152.f64BqL752272@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Arcady Genkin Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:52:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: webpages and CVS - what about CVS/Root etc? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200107040053.f640rO745505@lists.unixathome.org> In-reply-to: <87k81pfkq7.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Jul 2001, at 23:15, Arcady Genkin wrote: > "Dan Langille" writes: > > > I know you're out there. You're using cvs to store your webpages. How > > do you publish the pages? Via "cvs update" directly into the document > > root of the website? If so, what are you doing about files which you may > > not want people to see, such as CVS/Entries? > > > > I'm quite sure I can use the Apache "files" directive to restrict access. > > But I was hoping for other suggestions. > > Personally I maintain a Makefile which installs just the needed files > with correct permissions to the right places. > > Apart from that you can use "cvs export" to get a copy without the CVS > control files. I also saw a different approach: simply chmod the CVS > directories to something that is not readable to apache (usually 700 should > do); but this way you have to be mindful adding new directories. So far, this has worked for me: Order allow,deny Deny from all Order allow,deny Deny from all -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 5: 1:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F95037B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gehicks@pacbell.net) Received: from pacbell.net ([64.172.24.59]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GFX00MNFV7YTY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:52:29 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Subject: Re: fortune candidate? To: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <3B42CB3D.CC21807E@pacbell.net> Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Johann Visagie wrote: > > This is from... > > http://www.pcworld.com/features/article/0,aid,52503,pg,2,00.asp > > ... which is part of an article on the history of the PC which was linked > from daily.daemonnews. > > % > I invented Ctrl-Alt-Delete, but Bill Gates made it famous. > -- David Bradley, original IBM PC design team > % > > (?) :-) > Jordan told us to leave fortune alone. He had a gun at the time as I recall. -- W Gerald Hicks gehicks@pacbell.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 5:27:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED0E37B40C; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f64CRDb95599 ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:27:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA08518 ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:27:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:27:13 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Josef Grosch Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com>; from jgrosch@mooseriver.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:40:59PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch said on Jul 3, 2001 at 13:40:59: > > I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological > test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great things for > FreeBSD over the past 7 or 8 years. To be perfectly frank, he has done a > hell of a lot more for FreeBSD than you, Brett. Judging by his writings, on mailing lists and on daemonnews, I think Greg is one of the best choices as a BSD spokesman. Quite by chance, the other day when searching for something unrelated (font antialiasing under GTK) I found another fine example of BSD advocacy, which solidly and convincingly boosts BSD without finding the need to put down the GPL or Linux in the process: http://lwn.net/2001/0614/letters.php3 (letter from Matt Dillon) - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 7:27:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B78B37B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f64ER8g11382; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05724; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05720; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:27:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:27:07 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Michael Lucas Cc: cheney@soc.umass.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20010703200612.A87317@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Michael Lucas wrote: > At the risk of self-aggrandizement: > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ferrets.html I'll play your game, you rogue... http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 9:34:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F61337B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:34:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA89957; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:34:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:34:38 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: James Howard Cc: cheney@soc.umass.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy Message-ID: <20010704123438.B89612@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010703200612.A87317@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:27:07AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:27:07AM -0400, James Howard wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Michael Lucas wrote: > > > At the risk of self-aggrandizement: > > > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ferrets.html > > I'll play your game, you rogue... > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html Oooh, ZDNet! I have no choice but to surrender unconditionally when faced with that almighty repository of all that's good and true in IT publishing! -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 9:43: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C927437B407 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f64Gh4i13854; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11417; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11413; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:43:03 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Michael Lucas Cc: cheney@soc.umass.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20010704123438.B89612@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Michael Lucas wrote: > Oooh, ZDNet! I have no choice but to surrender unconditionally when > faced with that almighty repository of all that's good and true in IT > publishing! I thought that was Stewart Cheifet before the Computer Chronicles sold out. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 10:37:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9570437B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3362 invoked by uid 100); 4 Jul 2001 17:37:23 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15171.21587.240137.565088@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:37:23 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703234545.045afc30@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703151716.00ca8a70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703234545.045afc30@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > My personal opinion (and that of many others, though most of them are not > as vocal as the GPL zealots) is that the FreeBSD project should take a > much stronger stance against the GPL, because the GPL is contrary to the > goal of having code that "may be used for any purpose and with no strings > attached." I agree with Kirk McKusick, one of the "fathers" of BSD, who said: > > "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is > what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, > which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and > then Berkeley had what we called "copycenter", which is "take it down > to the copy center and make as many copies as you want." While the most vocal people on the list may not approve of the current stance, the majority of the people seem to like it. It meets the goal of providing code that can be used with no strings attached, without either alienating others in the open source community, or preventing code with other licenses from being used if necessary. Code that must be shipped with a running system has to have a BSD compatible license. For other parts of the system, if there is code available with a BSD compatible license, that will generally be used in preference to code that has an incompatible license. So anyone building a system on BSD can ship a system that may be used for any purpose, while those who have purposes that allow more restrictive licenses don't have to integrate code with such licenses to get required functionality. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 11:25:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6193637B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25436; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:25:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010704121813.04485a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:25:21 -0600 To: James Howard , Michael Lucas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Licensing Philosophy Cc: cheney@soc.umass.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20010703200612.A87317@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 AM 7/4/2001, James Howard wrote: >I'll play your game, you rogue... > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html Interesting. I was making exactly the same arguments in the SV.COM forum, and again in a conversation with a GPL advocate this morning. The point BSD needs to stress -- and it's the perfect moment for it -- is that the Microsoft/GPL dilemma presents consumers and developers with a lose/lose situation. If either Microsoft or the FSF succeeds in its agenda, consumers will be deprived of choice and small, inventive developers will be deprived of any chance to be rewarded for advancing the state of the art. We need to be united in this. It is disheartening to see some people in this forum advocating the GPL when in fact the FSF is just the OTHER corporation, with a vast hoard of software, striving for total dominance via predatory practices and media spin. We should point out that both have designs on total domination of the world of software and that neither has our best interests at heart. Finally, we should demonstrate that the BSD license and philosophy are the way between the horns of this dilemma. Consumers will embrace BSD when they see that these things are the only way in which consumers can truly win. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 13: 4:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F0437B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f64G4Kk01655; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:04:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:04:20 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Robert Clark Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Josef Grosch , FreeBSD Crap Subject: Trademarks (was: FreeBSD Services Ltd) Message-ID: <20010704110420.A1649@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> <20010629225137.D69846@peorth.iteration.net> <20010630110717.B69279@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010630110717.B69279@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 11:07:17AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 30 June 2001 at 11:07:17 -0700, Robert Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark scribbled: >>> >>> The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable >>> spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. >>> >>> Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. >>> >>> So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a >>> rumble. >> >> Please do your homework. Kirk states using the daemon for anything >> other than obscene purposes is OK. In addition, FreeBSD is not >> an enforceable trademark. > > Wow, I didn't know that. Neither did I. On the contrary, I know that Kirk does what he can to ensure that the daemon image is only used in a BSD context, and FreeBSD was a registered trade mark of BSDi. I assume it has now gone to Wind River systems. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 13:16: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A551E37B405; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.daemontech.net [208.135.51.161]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C92320F13; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010704110420.A1649@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Hodge Podge To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: Trademarks (was: FreeBSD Services Ltd) Cc: FreeBSD Crap , Cc: FreeBSD Crap , Josef Grosch , "Michael C . Wu" , Robert Clark Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Jul-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 30 June 2001 at 11:07:17 -0700, Robert Clark wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark scribbled: >>>> >>>> The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable >>>> spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. >>>> >>>> Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. >>>> >>>> So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a >>>> rumble. >>> >>> Please do your homework. Kirk states using the daemon for anything >>> other than obscene purposes is OK. In addition, FreeBSD is not >>> an enforceable trademark. >> >> Wow, I didn't know that. > > Neither did I. On the contrary, I know that Kirk does what he can to > ensure that the daemon image is only used in a BSD context, and > FreeBSD was a registered trade mark of BSDi. I assume it has now gone > to Wind River systems. As far as I know the FreeBSD trademark is not owned by Windriver, however the BSDI trademark is. The FreeBSD trademark is held by the FreeBSD Inc non profit group. I asked Kirk abt using the Daemon image for my (now half)venture of Daemon Technologies(tm) (As it is also trademarked BTW) and he said sure, just send me some money if you make any money from it and make sure that I give proper credit and notice as to ownership of the Daemon image. So basicly I think it is a stance of.. If you are a small fry and want to use it, just make sure people know who really owns it, and if you are a bigger entity, you better be prepared to share some moola And (probobly) give credit as well. Nicole nicole@daemontech.com nicole@daemontechnologies.com > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Nicole Harrington | AKA Hodge Podge * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- nicole@unixgirl.com http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org http://www.dangermouse.org/ nicole@deviantimages.com http://www.deviantimages.com/ -- Powered By Coca-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Why do doctors call what they do practice? -- -- The Best Place for Your Web Site - www.Kinkyhosting.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 13:18: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9763137B403; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@root.com) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f64K7gx97280; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:07:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:07:42 -0700 From: David Greenman To: Hodge Podge Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Crap , Josef Grosch , "Michael C . Wu" , Robert Clark Subject: Re: Trademarks (was: FreeBSD Services Ltd) Message-ID: <20010704130742.F89686@nexus.root.com> References: <20010704110420.A1649@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from nicole@unixgirl.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:15:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >On 04-Jul-01 Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 30 June 2001 at 11:07:17 -0700, Robert Clark wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: >>>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark scribbled: >>>>> >>>>> The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable >>>>> spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. >>>>> >>>>> Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. >>>>> >>>>> So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a >>>>> rumble. >>>> >>>> Please do your homework. Kirk states using the daemon for anything >>>> other than obscene purposes is OK. In addition, FreeBSD is not >>>> an enforceable trademark. >>> >>> Wow, I didn't know that. >> >> Neither did I. On the contrary, I know that Kirk does what he can to >> ensure that the daemon image is only used in a BSD context, and >> FreeBSD was a registered trade mark of BSDi. I assume it has now gone >> to Wind River systems. > > > As far as I know the FreeBSD trademark is not owned by Windriver, however the >BSDI trademark is. The FreeBSD trademark is held by the FreeBSD Inc non profit >group. Wrong. It is owned by Wind River as part of the asset transfer from BSDi (which acquired the trademark from Walnut Creek CDROM). It is everyone's plan to transfer it to the FreeBSD Foundation in the near future, however. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 13:34:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8502137B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 13:34:11 PDT Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Josef Grosch said on Jul 3, 2001 at 13:40:59: > > > > I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random > ideological > > test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great > things for > > FreeBSD over the past 7 or 8 years. To be perfectly frank, he has > done a > > hell of a lot more for FreeBSD than you, Brett. > > Judging by his writings, on mailing lists and on daemonnews, I think > Greg is one of the best choices as a BSD spokesman. > > Quite by chance, the other day when searching for something unrelated > (font antialiasing under GTK) I found another fine example of BSD > advocacy, which solidly and convincingly boosts BSD without finding > the need to put down the GPL or Linux in the process: > http://lwn.net/2001/0614/letters.php3 (letter from Matt Dillon) Agreed: he does talk about collaboration, but he also points out that if GPLd Kerberos would never make it. A quote: .............................................The same reasoning applies, which is why you see a company like Microsoft 'steal' Kerberos but then use it almost verbatim, despite having tens of billions of dollars of cash lying around that could easily fund a complete replacement (hmmm... of course, finding sufficient talent might not be so easy even with billions of dollars, eh?). Kerberos forced MS to go 95% of the way to an open-source solution, which is better then the 0% we would have gotten if Kerberos had been GPL'd. And now that MS has done it, they have to support it. Look at TCP/IP - Microsoft is being forced to essentially throw away a decades worth of proprietary networking protocols and use an open standard, and the GPL has nothing to do with the reason why. LDAP, DBMS, etc etc etc... they all have similar effects and as much as MS tries to proprietize them, the simple truth is that they fail much more often then they succeed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On the spokesman issue: Ted would do it fine, he has an abitlity to put words together and his arguments are quite insightful. He will also introduce the "fuck" word to the masses, something even Clinton was afraid to do... mr Starr was trying, but... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 17:48:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E19637B403; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A0B3666C4D; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:48:24 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: dima@unixfreak.org, ianjhart@freeloader.freeserve.co.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New INDEX Message-ID: <20010704174824.E59410@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3B326B5F.C763F5F8@freeloader.freeserve.co.uk> <20010622062315.6C42D3E28@bazooka.unixfreak.org> <20010622003013G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gDGSpKKIBgtShtf+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622003013G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 12:30:13AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --gDGSpKKIBgtShtf+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 12:30:13AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > I think you can see why I just used fixed-size buffers and raced > onwards instead. For what's probably the 47,938th time, I'll just > remind everyone that the bloody thing was supposed to be a > prototype. :-) That's going to be inscribed on your tombstone. Kris --gDGSpKKIBgtShtf+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7Q7lXWry0BWjoQKURAnGzAKCPqq5XQ+FD4//QhEnWXWrYt82TNQCgqw1C xDN2VOy9FboXbBeVhYCrxGA= =soKJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gDGSpKKIBgtShtf+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 17:51:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D34237B401; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91416; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:51:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:51:29 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jordan Hubbard , dima@unixfreak.org, ianjhart@freeloader.freeserve.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New INDEX Message-ID: <20010704205129.A91396@blackhelicopters.org> References: <3B326B5F.C763F5F8@freeloader.freeserve.co.uk> <20010622062315.6C42D3E28@bazooka.unixfreak.org> <20010622003013G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010704174824.E59410@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010704174824.E59410@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 05:48:24PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 05:48:24PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > That's going to be inscribed on your tombstone. So, Jordan, how long until OSX has libdialog support? ==ml [I'm sorry, I couldn't help it... I'm off the FreeBSD press list now, aren't I?] -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 18:11:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E282537B401; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f651AQt70536; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org Cc: kris@obsecurity.org, dima@unixfreak.org, ianjhart@freeloader.freeserve.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New INDEX In-Reply-To: <20010704205129.A91396@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010622003013G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010704174824.E59410@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010704205129.A91396@blackhelicopters.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010704181026V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 18:10:26 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [I'm sorry, I couldn't help it... I'm off the FreeBSD press list now, > aren't I?] Oh, you're on a list now, believe me. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 4 18:42:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DA237B401; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0EAF789B; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:41:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:41:57 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Brooks Davis Cc: , Iain Templeton , Greg Lehey , Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <20010703091814.A8129@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Brooks Davis wrote: :On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:42:02PM -0700, Crist J. Clark wrote: :> :> Not that I don't find the idea that when I use another bank's ATM :> machine I have to pay $1.50 service charge to the bank who owns the :> ATM, _plus_ another $1.50 to my bank for the honor of getting my money :> from someone else's machine a bit too much. : :What I really don't get is that a substantial number of people are more :upset that they have to pay the owner of a machine the cost well over :$50,000 and has hugh maintnance costs due to its mechanical complexity :then that they have to pay their own bank a similar amount to transfer :a few thousands bytes of data. : The bank of the person making the withdrawal is charged a fee by the ATM network (Cirrus, Plus, et al). Some of the money goes to the network, some to the owner of the ATM. Your bank is free to charge you whatever it thinks it can get away with, which may be more than the actual fee, or it may be less. (My credit union gives me a free withdrawal (maybe two) a month). The owner of the ATM is already making money on this fee -- the numbers from when the surcharge was introduced were about $.25 profit per transaction. The surcharge is pure profit. I see no problem with complaining that someone is making an excessive return, especially when it's comming directly out of my pocket. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 0:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045EA37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:50:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f657omb73915 ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA47291 ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:50:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:50:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bzdik BSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Message-ID: <20010705095047.A47133@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:34:11PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://lwn.net/2001/0614/letters.php3 (letter from Matt Dillon) > > Agreed: he does talk about collaboration, but he also points out that > if GPLd Kerberos would never make it. A quote: That was my point, he's advocating BSD in the "right way". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 8: 4:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E3537B407 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) Received: from kleenex (sgk@kleenex.apk.net [207.54.133.91]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f65F44S17749 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:04:03 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <108260000.994345443@kleenex> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So I'm late... :-) --On Friday, May 18, 2001 12:32:59 -0700 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > I also am curious about this. On Tuesday, I gave a presentation about BSD, > open source, and Linux; and some of the audience asked me about > alternatives for MS Exchange/Outlook -- in particular they were interested > in providing shared calendars. (I guess this is called "groupware".) > I have only heard about evolution, so it was my only answer. There are a lot of calendaring solutions. Some are free and some aren't. Freshmeat is a good place to start looking. For free solutions, phpgroupware is worthwhile. There is also one for a Zope server that's called Worldpilot (I think). > > But then later, I remembered reading about HP's OpenMail. It is available > for Linux -- maybe it runs under FreeBSD. My Agilent-working father > believes that OpenMail is mostly compatible with MS Exchange's > features (and since he is a former-HP employee, he believes it is a lot > better). But, I believe that OpenMail isn't being supported anymore, and > in the next few years it will be phased out. HP licensed MAPI from MS, so they were actually able to provide a server that Outlook can talk to via RPC. Openmail is a pig. :-) I've never seen anything slam a server so hard. But, it did work pretty well, and was much more stable than NT/Win2K/Exchange. HP decided not to keep Openmail alive any longer. There was talk of trying to get them to release the source, but it isn't much good without the MS code in the client for MAPI. I really doubt that they will be able to open-source that part. :-) > > As for evolution, I don't know much about it. I hear that it uses some > iCalendar protocol and will work with other calendaring systems. iCal, LDAP, and vCard are the things to look for. iCal provides a standard way to exchange calendar events between clients (although it works for the client to server interface too). vCard does the same for contact info. LDAP is LDAP. :-) (You could certainly use LDAP to communicate calendar and contact info, plus a lot more.) There was some talk in this thread about web-based solutions and how people don't like them. This is certainly a problem, but isn't limited to just groupware. I don't have any answer for people, other than to just look around and try things out. Notes/Domino isn't really the answer because it has a very steep learning curve to administer. The client isn't so bad if the admin sets things up properly beforehand. However, this is also true for groupware in general, as well as the currently popular CRM software. Most places buy into the groupware idea and think they're going to have all these nifty things that the vendors talk about. When it comes down to actually implementing it, the ball is dropped. Exchange/Notes/Groupwise/whatever just get dropped in with a default install and the advanced features never show up. (You have to fight to get the users to use the features, even assuming they're made available.) Groupwise needs Netware, so it's not going to be an Exchange-killer. Notes/Domino freaks people out when they start trying to run it. You can easily make a career out of learning Notes. (You can do some extremely neat things with it, but you need skilled admins and programmers.) Exchange is probably the easiest to plug n' play. It will run, if not particularly well, even installed by the clueless. The only advantage to Exchange/Outlook is that it is integrated. The client has access to all the features. A lot of these are integrated into the OS too. You can use the address book for other applications, for instance. It would be much harder to do this with a unix machine as a server using standards-based software. LDAP is going to have to be a central point IMO. It's an interesting topic. It also shows how MS ties your data up into their system so that you're forced to use more MS software. There is nothing open about MS's messaging and collaboration software. Once you buy into one part of the MS world view, it becomes the path of least resistance to keep going. It is very hard to pull your data back out of MS's clutches, and they don't make it easy to put it back in either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 8: 7:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186EE37B407 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f65F7a772674 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 03:07:37 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200107051507.f65F7a772674@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:07:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: review of SSL client authentication article Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone want to do a technical review my article on SSL client authentication article? I won't hold you responsible for my errors. I just want to make sure I haven't made any glaring errors. Please reply privately to get the URL. Thanks. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 10:59:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBA637B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05240; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:59:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705115552.0468ce00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:59:19 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Bzdik BSD From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010705095047.A47133@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:50 AM 7/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >That was my point, he's advocating BSD in the "right way". Matt makes a good point in that message -- one that, incidentally, I have made many times in other forums. But good advocacy must go further. To advocate the use of the BSDs relative to other products requires that one point out their advantages -- and one key advantage of them is their freedom from the viral, business-hostile, programmer-hostile terms of the GPL. Such advocacy is especially important right now, at a time when the press is portraying Microsoft and the GPL as if they were the only two alternatives. The BSDs represent one that's much better than either. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 11:50: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (pixpat.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6353B37B408; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:50:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f65HbTQ00589; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:37:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:37:29 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:18:43PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 3 July 2001 at 14:18:43 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:18 PM 7/2/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the >>> FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. >>> Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, >>> Greg Lehey for the job. ;) >> >> Well, thanks for the thought. > > With all due respect for Greg and his software contributions, he has > failed to support the BSD philosophy by refusing to oppose the nastiness > of the GPL Well, far be it for me to blow my own trumpet, but I think I have opposed what nastiness I have found in the GPL. > (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). No, I quoted you verbatim. > I therefore think that he would not make an appropriate spokesman. These would be invalid reasons. I'm sure somebody else could find valid ones. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 11:50:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (pixpat.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8A37B403; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f65Hfb100598; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:41:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:41:37 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: Josef Grosch , Brett Glass , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Message-ID: <20010705124136.N371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:57PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 3 July 2001 at 16:45:57 -0400, James Howard wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > >> I VERY strongly disagree! Just because Greg fails some random ideological >> test of yours is no reason to discount him. Greg Lehey has great things for > > As boringly anti-GPL Mr. Glass is, this is not a "random" > ideological test. It is very important to the future of FreeBSD > that its most visible participants be someone "opposed" to the > "competition". Note that Jordan Hubbard would fail this test too. Guys, when will you learn that times change? GNU isn't our competition, it's part of our cultural space. If you are *really* so opposed to GNU and the GPL, then you should remove every piece of GPL'd software from your system. You wouldn't be able to do much. I've stated again and again that I think the GPL is flawed. You don't notice, because I'm pointing to other flaws in the GPL than the ones you perceive. There are also flaws (oh horror!) in the BSD licence. But most of us have more potent enemies in sight, and in recent times, presumably despite the rabid faction, we've had quite an influx of Linux and GNU people into the BSD communities. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 11:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAC437B407; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05887; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:55:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:55:07 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 AM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). > >No, I quoted you verbatim. Without attribution. Quoting without attribution is plagiarism. The editors of Daemon News should not have allowed any such thing to a occur, as it is fundamentally unethical. In the scientific and technical community, such a breach of ethics is generally sufficient to disqualify someone from publishing -- and certainly from being a spokesperson. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 11:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4E037B407; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05946; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:59:09 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: Josef Grosch , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010705124136.N371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:41 AM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >Note that Jordan Hubbard would fail this test too. While I agree with Jordan about many things, I have long taken issue with acquiescence to the GPL. I feel that this acquiescence is one of the reasons that the BSDs have failed to achieve the recognition that they deserve. >Guys, when will you learn that times change? GNU isn't our >competition, it's part of our cultural space. Absolutely incorrect. The GPL is an attempt to TURN freely redistributable, peer-reviewed code -- such as the BSDs -- into a weapon against the interests of commercial programmers and programmers' livelihoods in general. It is not a proper part of the BSDs' "cultural space" (as you put it) but rather an invasion of that space. Advocacy of BSD demands that this be pointed out. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 12:41:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 293E237B406 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 35963 invoked by uid 100); 5 Jul 2001 19:41:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15172.49889.276007.445342@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:41:21 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> References: <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:41 AM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >Guys, when will you learn that times change? GNU isn't our > >competition, it's part of our cultural space. > > Absolutely incorrect. The GPL is an attempt to TURN freely > redistributable, peer-reviewed code -- such as the BSDs -- > into a weapon against the interests of commercial programmers > and programmers' livelihoods in general. It is not a proper > part of the BSDs' "cultural space" (as you put it) but rather > an invasion of that space. Advocacy of BSD demands that this > be pointed out. If the goal is to advance the FreeBSD license, that's certainly an excellent idea. If the goal is to kill the FreeBSD project, it's also a pretty good idea. One of the good things about FreeBSD is that it plays well with others. The license means that the code can be used in a wide range of situations, and the people working on the project are amenable to solutions from lots of other places. That's been one of the strengths since the CSRG days. As for the "culture", anyone who thinks the GPL introduced something new to the open source or free software culture doesn't know the history of such (which may explain the repetitive nature of their discourse :-). Before the GPL, a lot of free software published as source included a license that was clearly intended to prevent commercial use. All the GPL did was give those people a single banner. People who were ignoring the authors intent and taking advantage of authors who failed to express their intent with the proper legal language are the only losers. Anyone championing authors rights who doesn't see this as a good thing isn't really a champion of authors rights. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 13: 6:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14B437B406 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06684; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 14:05:55 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <15172.49889.276007.445342@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:41 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If the goal is to advance the FreeBSD license, that's certainly an >excellent idea. I think so too. (For one sentence, at least, we agree!) >If the goal is to kill the FreeBSD project, it's also >a pretty good idea. Neither the goal nor the effect of opposing the GPL would be to "kill the FreeBSD project." You're engaging in hyperbole here. >One of the good things about FreeBSD is that it >plays well with others. The license means that the code can be used in >a wide range of situations, and the people working on the project are >amenable to solutions from lots of other places. That's been one of >the strengths since the CSRG days. Agreed. And this is what the GPL is designed to sabotage, by licensing code in such a way that it does NOT "play well with others." >As for the "culture", anyone who thinks the GPL introduced something >new to the open source or free software culture doesn't know the >history of such (which may explain the repetitive nature of their >discourse :-). Not so. The GPL was introduced by Richard Stallman due to his PERSONAL vendetta against spinoffs of the MIT AI Lab. MIT originally licensed its code, which was developed at taxpayer expense, under a license that was almost identical to the BSD license. Stallman, who despised the notion that the code might be used by people who wished to earn money, created the GPL as a way of "monkey wrenching" this process. The GPL also violates authors' rights by attempting to appropriate their rights to their own work and preventing them from being rewarded for it. This is very, VERY much contrary to the spirit and philosophy of BSD. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 13:25:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EFC237B403 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 36973 invoked by uid 100); 5 Jul 2001 20:25:37 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:25:37 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >If the goal is to kill the FreeBSD project, it's also > >a pretty good idea. > Neither the goal nor the effect of opposing the GPL would be > to "kill the FreeBSD project." You're engaging in hyperbole here. No, I'm stating an opinion. To rephrase, if a highly visible member of the FreeBSD development community launched a vendetta against the GPL, it would do serious damage to the FreeBSD project. And it would. Now, if I pointed out that your attacks on the FSF are so single-minded that you are apparently willing to damage the FreeBSD project in order to damage the FSF in the process, *that* would be hyperbole. > >As for the "culture", anyone who thinks the GPL introduced something > >new to the open source or free software culture doesn't know the > >history of such (which may explain the repetitive nature of their > >discourse :-). > Not so. The GPL was introduced by Richard Stallman due to his > PERSONAL vendetta against spinoffs of the MIT AI Lab. The reason Stallman introduced the GPL is irrelevant to the question of what the free software culture was like before he did so. Anyone who is aware of what was going on then knows that the only real change from the GPL was providing a single license for the large numbers of people who were already releasing software with the intent that it not be available for commercial use. > The GPL also violates authors' rights by attempting > to appropriate their rights to their own work and preventing them > from being rewarded for it. Not so. The GPL is inanimate, and can't attempt anyhing. Any author who releases something under the GPL does so of their own free will, and while they may give away the right to be rewarded for the work in question, they do so knowingly. Since many of them would have used some less effective "no commercial use" license if the GPL weren't available, they benefit from doing so. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 13:46:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A201E37B405; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f65KkXb46032 ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:46:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA76660 ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:46:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:46:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:55:07PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 5, 2001 at 12:55:07: > At 11:37 AM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >> (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). > > > >No, I quoted you verbatim. > > Without attribution. Quoting without attribution is plagiarism. I had decided not to reply to Brett's tripe about the GPL any more. But I must react to this abuse of the English language. For a professional writer, this is disgraceful. Plagiarism is claiming someone else's work as your own. Greg did not do that: it was clearly marked as a quote. (I think Greg would be a quite unlikely person to plagiarise Brett.) Quoting without attribution is just that, quoting without attribution. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 15:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80EF37B408 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37094; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:28:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jul 2001 00:28:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > Not so. The GPL is inanimate, and can't attempt anyhing. Any author > who releases something under the GPL does so of their own free will, > and while they may give away the right to be rewarded for the work in > question, they do so knowingly. Actually, I think a lot of them have no idea what the GPL means (except that it means "free", for some definition of "free"), and use it only because they don't know any better, and everybody else is using it anyway so it must good. That still doesn't mean they're being forced into using the GPL against their will, though - ignorance is not a valid excuse. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 15:34:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9952937B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08484; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:34:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:34:17 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:25 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >No, I'm stating an opinion. To rephrase, if a highly visible member of >the FreeBSD development community launched a vendetta against the GPL, The word "vendetta" is not appropriate. They should, however, "just say no" to the GPL. The GPL should be expelled from the source trees of FreeBSD and in fact all of the BSDs, because it is contrary to the BSD philosophy. To keep it in the tree is to clasp the serpent to our breast. >it would do serious damage to the FreeBSD project. And it would. I very strongly disagree. It would provide a unifying force and a unifying principle -- something which BSD lacks now. >Now, if I pointed out that your attacks on the FSF are so >single-minded that you are apparently willing to damage the FreeBSD >project in order to damage the FSF in the process, *that* would be >hyperbole. Yes, it would be. However, criticizing the GPL, and pointing out the nasty traps it lays for developers, does not and never will damage the FreeBSD project. >The reason Stallman introduced the GPL is irrelevant to the question >of what the free software culture was like before he did so. In your previous message you claimed that developers' motivations were relevant. Now you're saying that they aren't. But in fact Stallman's motivations are very relevant. Just as the Federalist Papers help us to understand the workings of the US Constitution, Stallman's early writings, such as the GNU Manifesto, are the design documents for the GPL and explain what it was designed to do and how. > Anyone >who is aware of what was going on then knows that the only real change >from the GPL was providing a single license for the large numbers of >people who were already releasing software with the intent that it not >be available for commercial use. This is absolutely untrue. Before Stallman, the ethic which survives in the BSD community was far more universal. Stallman, with misleading rhetoric, rallied programmers in an attempt to arouse spite against commercial developers. In doing so, he did great damage to the collective psyche of the community. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 15:47:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2872A37B40A; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08656; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:47:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:47:26 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:46 PM 7/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Plagiarism is claiming someone else's work as your own. It is also incorporating the work of others without attribution. To quote from the languaged of the academic dishonesty policy used by the University of Arkansas and many other institutions (see http://www.nwacc.cc.ar.us/bus-comp/TCash/Rules.htm)), "Plagiarism occurs both when the words of another are reproduced without acknowledgment or when the ideas or arguments of another are paraphrased in such a way as to lead the reader to believe that they originated with the writer." See also: http://www.arl.org/symp3/givler.html#note6 "Plagiarism is the use of someone else's ideas without attribution, whether or not the specific language in which the ideas are being expressed has also been taken from someone else." http://www.keganlaw.com/faq.htm "Academic plagiarism is using another's work without attribution." http://www.du.edu/law/lawreview/honorcode.htm "In general, plagiarism is using the ideas or statements of someone else without attribution." http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/plagiarism.html "You are obligated, as an ethical obligation to other writers and as a defense for yourself, to acknowledge all borrowings you take from other sources, even if you don't copy the exact words used in the original—even if you never actually quote the original. Plagiarism includes: 1. Quoting material without attribution. The most obvious kind of plagiarism. And on and on.... There are thousands of references on the Web. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 16:21:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621D637B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09060; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:21:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:21:16 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:25 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Any author >who releases something under the GPL does so of their own free will... Not true. From the GPL: >b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in > whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any > part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third > parties under the terms of this License. As you can see, the GPL coerces authors who use even a single line of GPLed code to release their own work under the GPL. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 16:45:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (ip-208.54.94.63.mobilestar.net [208.54.94.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C7D37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f65Njas00857; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:45:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:32:31 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Big companies and the GPL (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Message-ID: <20010705183231.C657@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <3B426349.B50B1A4D@outpost.co.nz> <3B4266BB.AE0CE214@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B4266BB.AE0CE214@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:43:39PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 3 July 2001 at 20:43:39 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Craig Harding wrote: >> > ... >> >> What I find most entertaining is the similarity between Brett's view of >> the GPL and Bill Gates' (as detailed in his recent interview - I read >> the BG IV and thought Brett must have been ghostwriting for him). And >> therein I think lies the simple appeal of the GPL to many people - if >> Bill Gates doesn't like it, it must be good. > > Something interesting; the only company attacking the GPL is > Microsoft. This doesn't mean it's the only company that is being hurt > though: while IBM, HP, SGI and the others are not attacking it, are > pretty silent considering they have invested on Linux projects. Disclaimer: I do not speak for IBM. Everything I say below is available on the web somewhere, but I can't quote you a URL. IBM is not silent about the GPL. They have had some issues with it, neither the ones I have, nor the ones Brett and co. have, so they ended up writing the IBM Public Licence (IPL). I don't know exactly how they differ, though I suppose that's an exercise for the reader. Stallman has agreed to the IPL, though, so it can't bee too different from the GPL. IBM's stance on GPL'd software is that there is a significant quantity of software of general use which can be released to the community without adversely affecting the bottom line. That's what it's doing. IBM will *not* release software under the BSD license, because that would enable its competitors to take the software and use it to their own purposes. This doesn't mean that IBM will not support BSD. But the rules change depending on whose code it is. > The truth is the GPL is not a good business, In the long term, no. In the short term it might help people change their way of thinking. I have strong doubts about the viability of the current "open source" model beyond the next 10 years in any case. It would be nice if whatever it evolves into is less predatory than Microsoft. > but Microsoft is the only company doing real profits anyway. No, I don't think that's the case. Microsoft is very much in the news, *and* they make real profits, but that doesn't mean that other, quieter companies aren't doing well as well. -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:30:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D384837B403 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gehicks@pacbell.net) Received: from pacbell.net ([64.172.24.59]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GG1008HC0391Y@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:30:27 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B4506A3.5E15D22C@pacbell.net> Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705115552.0468ce00@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [from some caustic irritant on -chat] > > Such advocacy is especially important right now, at a time when > the press is portraying Microsoft and the GPL as if they were > the only two alternatives. The BSDs represent one that's much > better than either. > Advocacy often seems to be overrated, especially by the loudest and most ineffective advocates. Similarly, it's an amazing thing how incompetent people are often convinced they are the most competent. Please don't CC me on any followups. Unsubscribing this madness now... Bah, W Gerald Hicks gehicks@pacbell.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:31:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB57937B401; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09658; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:31:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705182444.04522650@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:31:24 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Big companies and the GPL (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010705183231.C657@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <3B4266BB.AE0CE214@pitt.edu> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <3B426349.B50B1A4D@outpost.co.nz> <3B4266BB.AE0CE214@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:32 PM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >Disclaimer: I do not speak for IBM. Everything I say below is >available on the web somewhere, but I can't quote you a URL. > >IBM is not silent about the GPL. They have had some issues with it, >neither the ones I have, nor the ones Brett and co. have, Terry Lambert has described these issues at length, and they are very much the same as the ones I raise. >so they >ended up writing the IBM Public Licence (IPL). I don't know exactly >how they differ, though I suppose that's an exercise for the reader. >Stallman has agreed to the IPL, though, so it can't bee too different >from the GPL. As I recall, the IPL isn't viral. As for Stallman "agreeing" to it: if a license is not the GPL, he will do so at best grudgingly. >IBM's stance on GPL'd software is that there is a significant quantity >of software of general use which can be released to the community >without adversely affecting the bottom line. That's what it's doing. >IBM will *not* release software under the BSD license, because that >would enable its competitors to take the software and use it to their >own purposes. I doubt that's true. Terry? My personal take is that IBM, being a large company, has some people who are intelligent and worldly wise and some who are foolish (usually, the marketing department) and/or inclined to embrace ideology or follow whatever seems like the latest trend. The smart ones will stay as far as possible from the GPL as possible. The ones that are taken in by Stallman's rhetoric, or blinded by Linux hype, will embrace the GPL at their peril and their company's. This is likewise true of HP. It has hired Bruce Perens, whose activities will likely gravely hurt the company's interests. I cannot tell whether this was done out of sheer foolishness or because they want to keep an eye on him.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:48:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 948A937B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:48:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 42792 invoked by uid 100); 6 Jul 2001 00:48:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:48:44 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav types: > Mike Meyer writes: > > Not so. The GPL is inanimate, and can't attempt anyhing. Any author > > who releases something under the GPL does so of their own free will, > > and while they may give away the right to be rewarded for the work in > > question, they do so knowingly. > Actually, I think a lot of them have no idea what the GPL means > (except that it means "free", for some definition of "free"), and use > it only because they don't know any better, and everybody else is > using it anyway so it must good. That still doesn't mean they're > being forced into using the GPL against their will, though - ignorance > is not a valid excuse. If their understanding is no better than it was before the GPL was introduced, that's certainly true. A large percentage of them simply slapped "This code is in the public domain. Not for commercial use." - or words to that effect - on their code. For such people the GPL is an improvement, as it comes much closer to their intent than what they were doing before. Brett Glass types: > At 02:25 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Any author > >who releases something under the GPL does so of their own free will... > Not true. From the GPL: > >b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in > > whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any > > part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third > > parties under the terms of this License. > As you can see, the GPL coerces authors who use even a single line of Personally, I think this is a misuse of the word "coerce". After all, this does exactly what the authors of other software - and content - do when they coerce users of their product to give up the rewards of that users labor in order to use the product. I'm also surprised to see you claiming that copyright holders shouldn't be allowed to extract payment from people who want to use their works. Brett Glass types: > At 02:25 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >No, I'm stating an opinion. To rephrase, if a highly visible member of > >the FreeBSD development community launched a vendetta against the GPL, > The word "vendetta" is not appropriate. They should, however, > "just say no" to the GPL. The GPL should be expelled from the > source trees of FreeBSD and in fact all of the BSDs, because it > is contrary to the BSD philosophy. To keep it in the tree is to > clasp the serpent to our breast. Given the religious nature of your attacks "jihad" might be better, but "vendetta" certainly describes what you just asked for. As for the BSD philosophy - it's working code that can be more freely distributed than what CSRG started with. What's being clasped is that working code, and it's being done in such a way that those who can't use the code can create a distribution that doesn't include it. Of course, they have to use that code to create the distribution - but that's better than not being able to create it at all. > >it would do serious damage to the FreeBSD project. And it would. > I very strongly disagree. It would provide a unifying force and a > unifying principle -- something which BSD lacks now. Losing the effort required to replace the GPL'ed code with something else - over a philosophical difference - would clearly damage the project. If you think the effort isn't damaging, you're free to release a BSDlessGPL distribution. Or submit a pr with patches that replace the GPL'ed code with other code with the same functionality. > >The reason Stallman introduced the GPL is irrelevant to the question > >of what the free software culture was like before he did so. > In your previous message you claimed that developers' motivations > were relevant. Now you're saying that they aren't. I didn't say any such thing. What I said was that the GPL provided a license that expressed the software developers intent, and does so much better than what they were doing previously. The reason the GPL is used so often is because so many developers want to give away software, but don't want others to make money off of their work by using it commercially. The wide-spread adoption of the GPL simply mirrors the wide-spread usage of ad-hoc licenses in the software community prior to the GPL. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:53:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A505237B407 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1107"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5L3826L5C0033G3@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:53:10 EST Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:54:19 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B450C3B.AC26688F@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D2631C55FE48CBDD425AFA3" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705115552.0468ce00@localhost> <3B4506A3.5E15D22C@pacbell.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D2631C55FE48CBDD425AFA3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I only want to add another thing: I think Greg Lehey would be a good spokesman for one reason: he has beard, and it is well known that Opensource advocates follow bearded leaders blindly ;). cheers, Pedro W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > [from some caustic irritant on -chat] > > > > Such advocacy is especially important right now, at a time when > > the press is portraying Microsoft and the GPL as if they were > > the only two alternatives. The BSDs represent one that's much > > better than either. > > > > Advocacy often seems to be overrated, especially by the loudest and most > ineffective advocates. > > Similarly, it's an amazing thing how incompetent people are often > convinced they are the most competent. > > Please don't CC me on any followups. Unsubscribing this madness now... > > Bah, > > W Gerald Hicks > gehicks@pacbell.net > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------3D2631C55FE48CBDD425AFA3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------3D2631C55FE48CBDD425AFA3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:53:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F60F37B403 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09863; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:53:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:53:17 -0600 To: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. In-Reply-To: <3B4506A3.5E15D22C@pacbell.net> References: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705115552.0468ce00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:30 PM 7/5/2001, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >> [from some caustic irritant on -chat] Arguing ad hominem, as you do above, is the caustic irritant. These issues are important and should be discussed in a level-headed fashion. >Advocacy often seems to be overrated, especially by the loudest and most >ineffective advocates. Advocacy has been responsible for the overwhelming amount of press enjoyed by Linux -- even though it is technologically inferior to the BSDs and licensed in a way that is truly dangerous to businesses and others. >Similarly, it's an amazing thing how incompetent people are often >convinced they are the most competent. See the comment above about argumentum ad hominem. >Please don't CC me on any followups. I won't cc you. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:57:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A1F37B408 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09894; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:57:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185450.04581f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:57:15 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 7/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If their understanding is no better than it was before the GPL was >introduced, that's certainly true. A large percentage of them simply >slapped "This code is in the public domain. Not for commercial use." - >or words to that effect - on their code. > >For such people the GPL is an improvement, as it comes much closer to >their intent than what they were doing before. The GPL is far worse than this because it is viral. >Personally, I think this is a misuse of the word "coerce". Not so. It is entirely appropriate. Stallman even speaks of using the GPL to coerce organizations to reveal their code. >I'm also surprised to see you claiming that copyright holders >shouldn't be allowed to extract payment from people who want to use >their works. They will get no payment from anyone who is rational. Once code has been released under the GPL, the market value of its functionality is zero. To pay to license something that has zero market value is folly. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 17:58:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CE037B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09923; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:58:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185740.04528d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:58:32 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B450C3B.AC26688F@pitt.edu> References: <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20010704142712.D2156@lpt.ens.fr> <20010704203411.16408.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705115552.0468ce00@localhost> <3B4506A3.5E15D22C@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:54 PM 7/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >I only want to add another thing: > >I think Greg Lehey would be a good spokesman for one reason: he has >beard, and it is well known that Opensource advocates follow bearded >leaders blindly ;). Maybe I'm a better candidate than I thought. Unless, of course, the requirement is for a long, unruly beard. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18: 0:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9361637B40A for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 29576 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 01:00:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 Jul 2001 01:00:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Jul-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:30 PM 7/5/2001, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > >>Please don't CC me on any followups. > > I won't cc you. To: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass While you are perhaps pedantically correct in that you used 'To:' instead of 'Cc:' you most certainly have violated the spirit of his request. Since you aren't as dumb as a fencepost, I feel confident that you got the spirit of his request, and thus your statement can only be taken as a lie. This is not the way you want to present yourselves to the others reading on this list who are still trying to form an opinion about you. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18: 4: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F3437B407; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09985; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:03:50 -0600 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:00 PM 7/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >While you are perhaps pedantically correct in that you used 'To:' >instead of 'Cc:' you most certainly have violated the spirit of >his request. I don't think that he should have expected no response after posting a slanderous remark. I meant what I said: I don't intend to put him on the cc: list for future exchanges on the list. But I certainly think that it was fair and appropriate to answer. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18: 6:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A6A37B401; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6616ax08373; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28518; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28514; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:06:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:06:35 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: Josef Grosch , Brett Glass , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <20010705124136.N371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > Guys, when will you learn that times change? GNU isn't our > competition, it's part of our cultural space. If you are *really* so No. I first came to FreeBSD when I wanted to learn some programming stuff. Ever try to read GNU code? It is painful. I learned to write socket code from FreeBSD's finger implementation. And of course, supreme simplicity of the ports system is beautiful. There is no match anywhere else. And FreeBSD's stability is jaw dropper. In five years, I have seen FreeBSD systems crash less than a dozen times. FreeBSD is really beautiful OS. There is no better way to describe it. With that in mind, there is no sense in not blowing away the competition. And the GPL is a big, big target on the back of Linux. It is an easy way to strike fear in the hearts of others. Do not look a gift horse in the mouth :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18: 8:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C673637B409 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1142"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5L3R9Q6WW0036OK@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:08:39 EST Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:09:48 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B450FDC.2B237F2@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6E9619C5BA04246665329BBA" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6E9619C5BA04246665329BBA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And that's why you will NEVER be a FreeBSD spokesman. Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:00 PM 7/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > >While you are perhaps pedantically correct in that you used 'To:' > >instead of 'Cc:' you most certainly have violated the spirit of > >his request. > > I don't think that he should have expected no response after > posting a slanderous remark. I meant what I said: I don't intend > to put him on the cc: list for future exchanges on the list. But > I certainly think that it was fair and appropriate to answer. > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------6E9619C5BA04246665329BBA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------6E9619C5BA04246665329BBA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:22:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8152337B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10173; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705192156.0454b870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:22:19 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B450FDC.2B237F2@pitt.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:09 PM 7/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >And that's why you will NEVER be a FreeBSD spokesman. Because I believe in fairness? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:29:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA87837B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1193"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5L4I82FFS002X4I@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:29:36 EST Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:30:45 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B4514C5.DDC66ACA@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7F07B638D23CA55ED20B5985" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705192156.0454b870@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7F07B638D23CA55ED20B5985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Because you don't respect the community your are pretending to represent. You just had to be right, even if it meant disrespecting him. It was a terrible mistake; show us that you learned from it and don't post again in this list for a month! It was not a matter of fairness, but a good spokesman shouldn't expect fairness, simply because life is not fair. Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:09 PM 7/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >And that's why you will NEVER be a FreeBSD spokesman. > > Because I believe in fairness? > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------7F07B638D23CA55ED20B5985 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------7F07B638D23CA55ED20B5985-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:32:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (mail.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 913F537B406 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 647 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jul 2001 01:27:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:27:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Mike Meyer Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm no lawyer, I don't even play one on TV, but as far as I know, you can't say "This is public domain" and then place a restriction like "not for commercial use" on it, without incorporating it into a non pd work, with a license over the entire derived work which prohibits such. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:42:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rebel.net.au (rebel.rebel.net.au [203.20.69.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D45437B403; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lloy0076@rebel.net.au) Received: from rebel.net.au (dialup-7.rebel.net.au [203.20.69.77]) by rebel.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA22004; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:12:38 +0930 Message-ID: <3B45185B.82718445@rebel.net.au> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:16:03 +0930 From: David Lloyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Greg Lehey , Josef Grosch , Brett Glass , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: Sowhat happens to FreeBSD now?)) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmmm.... > No. I first came to FreeBSD when I wanted to learn some programming > stuff. Ever try to read GNU code? It is painful. Hang on a moment. The fact the code is bad has nothing to do with the GPL or GNU. Give me some money and I'll spend an hour writing bad code under a Microsoft EULA, the BSD Licence, the Artistic Licence...I'm sure you get my drift. > I learned to write > socket code from FreeBSD's finger implementation. And of course, supreme > simplicity of the ports system is beautiful. There is no match anywhere > else. wget -c blah ./configure blah make make install Whilst, admittedly, one needs to use one's brain under Linux to make sure you get the right "blah", the rest doesn't seem that much more difficult than the Ports collection. And what's wrong with apt-get under Debian... > And FreeBSD's stability is jaw dropper. In five years, I have seen > FreeBSD systems crash less than a dozen times. FreeBSD is really > beautiful OS. There is no better way to describe it. Yes, I agree. It does seem to be a very good OS. > With that in mind, there is no sense in not blowing away the > competition. And the GPL is a big, big target on the back of Linux. It > is an easy way to strike fear in the hearts of others. Do not look a > gift horse in the mouth :) This GPL vs BSD thing, to my mind is rather silly. There's going to be something wrong with every licence you invent. Let's live with that fact and make the best out of a bad world. DSLK -- "And the winner is InUnifiedCanadianAboriginalSyllabics" - Larry Wall et al in Programming Perl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:47:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB18537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10408; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:47:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705193942.045d4100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:47:33 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B4514C5.DDC66ACA@pitt.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705185013.00bb8420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705192156.0454b870@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:30 PM 7/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Because you don't respect the community your are pretending to >represent. Not true at all. HE was being disrespectful to both me and the community by belittling those who were participating in the conversation and hurling gratuitous insults. Responding to him in an appropriate manner was not disrespectful. Incidentally, I respect the community a great deal. If I did not, I would not be here. Nor would I be working to get this community the recognition it deserves. >You just had to be right, even if it meant disrespecting >him. It was a terrible mistake; show us that you learned from it and >don't post again in this list for a month! I don't think that a spokesperson should allow someone who is being rude and derisive -- something that spokespeople frequently encounter! -- to silence him or her. To do so would render that spokesperson utterly ineffective. A spokesperson should be able to deal with hecklers. It's a good test of his or her patience and tenacity. >It was not a matter of fairness, but a good spokesman shouldn't expect >fairness, simply because life is not fair. Life is, indeed, not fair. But people should be. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:50:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7572137B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10443; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:50:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705194903.045d4910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:50:23 -0600 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" , Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , In-Reply-To: References: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:27 PM 7/5/2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: >I'm no lawyer, I don't even play one on TV, but as far as I know, you >can't say "This is public domain" and then place a restriction like "not >for commercial use" on it, without incorporating it into a non pd work, >with a license over the entire derived work which prohibits such. You're correct. What's unclear, though, is which of the two contradictory statements is legally binding. Different judges might rule differently on this. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:53:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dalek.xmach.org (xMach.org [209.42.222.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E8DD37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@xMach.org) Received: (qmail 26177 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jul 2001 01:53:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 01:53:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:53:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: , Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705194903.045d4910@localhost> Message-ID: <20010705215204.R26172-100000@Dalek.xMach.ORG> Organization: xMach Core Team [ http://www.xMach.org/ ] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You're correct. What's unclear, though, is which of the two contradictory > statements is legally binding. Different judges might rule differently > on this. > > --Brett > If I were the Judge, I'd ask why they used the "short version of the GPL". That's why I release all of my work under the MS EULA. 'Microsoft xMach: Now with built in media player' -- Joseph Mallett, jmallett@xMach.org xMach Core Team, http://xMach.org/ http://people.xMach.org/~jmallett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 18:53:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dalek.xmach.org (xMach.org [209.42.222.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F23D37B407 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@xMach.org) Received: (qmail 26177 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jul 2001 01:53:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 01:53:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:53:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: , Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705194903.045d4910@localhost> Message-ID: <20010705215204.R26172-100000@Dalek.xMach.ORG> Organization: xMach Core Team [ http://www.xMach.org/ ] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You're correct. What's unclear, though, is which of the two contradictory > statements is legally binding. Different judges might rule differently > on this. > > --Brett > If I were the Judge, I'd ask why they used the "short version of the GPL". That's why I release all of my work under the MS EULA. 'Microsoft xMach: Now with built in media player' -- Joseph Mallett, jmallett@xMach.org xMach Core Team, http://xMach.org/ http://people.xMach.org/~jmallett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 19:22:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2F3237B40B for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 41273 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 02:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 Jul 2001 02:22:39 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Jul-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:00 PM 7/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > >>While you are perhaps pedantically correct in that you used 'To:' >>instead of 'Cc:' you most certainly have violated the spirit of >>his request. > > I don't think that he should have expected no response after > posting a slanderous remark. I meant what I said: I don't intend > to put him on the cc: list for future exchanges on the list. But > I certainly think that it was fair and appropriate to answer. That is not what you said. You said "I won't cc you." That is a vague statement that can easily cover the e-mail it was a part of. What you should have said then was what you meant: "I won't cc you on any future exchanges after this reply." A spokesman has to be clear in communicating the message to the audience, except when explicitly using ambiguity. I'm not arguing about whether or not what you said or he said was fair or not. I'm just giving you a tip as it were, and trying to help you see what it can like when other people read your e-mails. > --Brett Glass -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 5 19:26:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65A9D37B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 48043 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 02:26:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 Jul 2001 02:26:36 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Jul-01 John Baldwin wrote: > tip as it were, and trying to help you see what it can like when other people ^ look > read your e-mails. Oops. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 0:31:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462EB37B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12518; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:31:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706012158.0449d990@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 01:31:39 -0600 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:22 PM 7/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >That is not what you said. You said "I won't cc you." That is a vague >statement that can easily cover the e-mail it was a part of. What you should >have said then was what you meant: "I won't cc you on any future exchanges >after this reply." I wasn't cc'ing him on that message. That message was TO him. >A spokesman has to be clear in communicating the message to >the audience, except when explicitly using ambiguity. If I were in the process of conveying the "official" message to someone who was actually listening, I would indeed be very careful about avoiding the slightest bit of ambiguity. But in this case, I was dealing with a heckler -- a situation in which one can only "win" (or even break even!) by showing grace under fire and being witty where the heckler is mean, irate, or both. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 0:33:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA30337B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b102.otenet.gr [195.167.121.230]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f667WxH23388; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:32:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f667Wvq06772; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:32:57 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:32:57 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mike Meyer Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Message-ID: <20010706103257.B6349@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 07:48:44PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Date: Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 07:48:44PM -0500 > If their understanding is no better than it was before the GPL was > introduced, that's certainly true. A large percentage of them simply > slapped "This code is in the public domain. Not for commercial use." - > or words to that effect - on their code. Does this remind anyone else of the word 'discrimination' ? I am not sure, but I think that you can't say 'public domain' and 'this and that cannot use the code'. It's either in the public domain, and everyone can use it as they see fit, or it isn't and only a few selected people can use it. But I'm off on a tangent here. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 0:36:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B9A37B406 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12555; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:35:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706013412.04490750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 01:35:49 -0600 To: Giorgos Keramidas , Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706103257.B6349@hades.hell.gr> References: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:32 AM 7/6/2001, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Does this remind anyone else of the word 'discrimination' ? Very much so! >I am not sure, but I think that you can't say 'public domain' and >'this and that cannot use the code'. It's either in the public >domain, and everyone can use it as they see fit, or it isn't and only >a few selected people can use it. Or, to put it another way, either it's truly free or it's not. GPLed software isn't truly free at all, because, as you've noted, a specific group is singled out for discriminatory treatment. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 0:41: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D15737B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:40:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b102.otenet.gr [195.167.121.230]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f667enH10712; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:40:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f667el307800; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:40:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:40:46 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Message-ID: <20010706104045.C6349@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> <20010706103257.B6349@hades.hell.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706013412.04490750@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706013412.04490750@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:35:49AM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:35:49AM -0600 > At 01:32 AM 7/6/2001, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > >I am not sure, but I think that you can't say 'public domain' and > >'this and that cannot use the code'. It's either in the public > >domain, and everyone can use it as they see fit, or it isn't and only > >a few selected people can use it. > > Or, to put it another way, either it's truly free or it's not. GPLed > software isn't truly free at all, because, as you've noted, a > specific group is singled out for discriminatory treatment. Actually, it was not GPL I was referring to, but those 'pre-GPL' people described by Mike that would say 'this is public domain, and all can use it, except for so and so...'. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 1:38:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5747737B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f668c8b88021 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA00729 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:38:08 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:47:26PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Look Brett, I know from the past that when you read you choose it to mean whatever you want it to mean. Moreover, this helps you to carry around grudges for ridiculous amounts of time: if you can bear a grudge against Greg for a 6 month old article, imagine how the GPL's perceived injustices must have embittered your soul after all these years. *EVERY ONE* of the quotes you sent, either makes it clear that plagiarism only occurs when the reader is misled into believing that either the words, or the ideas, are the writer's own; or is an incidental sentence thrown in from a resource on an unrelated subject (intellectual property, etc). In any case, none of the original sources support you (see below). For what it's worth, what Greg wrote was not an academic article, but journalism. Unattributed quotes are commonplace in journalism and sometimes preferred: for instance, it's considered bad practice to quote a private conversation without permission, but often the journalist can't resist quoting it anyway. Greg's reasons were different: in his words he was "embarrassed" to name you. I'm not sure why, since everyone in the FreeBSD community knows about you, but there was nothing unethical in quoting you without naming you. In academic articles (and I've written several myself) you always quote with attribution if you're quoting a published work. If you quote private correspondence, you always ask first, before quoting. You don't normally make unattributed quotes, not because it's unethical but because it makes it difficult for the reader to evaluate the correctness of your paper. You, with your habit of selective quotation to further your cause, are consistently guilty of academic dishonesty. --- > >Plagiarism is claiming someone else's work as your own. > > It is also incorporating the work of others without attribution. > To quote from the languaged of the academic dishonesty policy used > by the University of Arkansas and many other institutions (see > http://www.nwacc.cc.ar.us/bus-comp/TCash/Rules.htm)), > > "Plagiarism occurs both when the words of another are reproduced > without acknowledgment or when the ideas or arguments of another are > paraphrased in such a way as to lead the reader to believe that they > originated with the writer." A perfect example of your habit of selective quotation. This extract tells you how plagiarism may occur. The beginning of the paragraph defines plagiarism: * [one example of academic dishonesty] Plagiarism, the offering as ones own work, the words, ideas, or ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ arguments of another person without appropriate attribution by quotation, reference, or footnote. (my emphasis) > http://www.arl.org/symp3/givler.html#note6 > > "Plagiarism is the use of someone else's ideas without attribution, > whether or not the specific language in which the ideas are being > expressed has also been taken from someone else." What idea of yours did he "use"? He was quoting, quite clearly, not using your ideas (in fact he was rejecting them). This is from an article on copyright infringement which doesn't bother to explain in detail what plagiarism is; but the idea clearly is that plagiarism is claiming another's work or ideas as yours. > http://www.keganlaw.com/faq.htm > > "Academic plagiarism is using another's work without attribution." He was quoting your work, not using it. Perhaps the meanings are not well defined here, but this was from a resource on intellectual property, not academic rights, so once again you're just lifting a single out-of-context and perhaps carelessly written sentence. > http://www.du.edu/law/lawreview/honorcode.htm > > "In general, plagiarism is using the ideas or statements of someone > else without attribution." Again, reading the rest of that page shows you the intent is not to claim the work as your own. Further on the page, it says plagiarism consists of either (a) using an idea or statement from a source without a footnote, or (b) using more than three consecutive words from a statement in a source without enclosing the words in quotes and citing to the source. Greg did (b), very plainly, and the source he cited was a FreeBSD mailing list. > http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/plagiarism.html > > "You are obligated, as an ethical obligation to other writers and as > a defense for yourself, to acknowledge all borrowings you take from > other sources, even if you don't copy the exact words used in the > original—even if you never actually quote the original. Plagiarism > includes: > > 1. Quoting material without attribution. The most obvious kind of > plagiarism. Greg acknowledged that this quote was from another source. He even mentioned the source: the FreeBSD mailing lists. > And on and on.... There are thousands of references on the Web. Yes, since your definition of "reference" is hitting the Google search engine and choosing the phrases you like. I didn't even bother doing my own search: your own references discredit you so thoroughly (apart from the fact that you can't distinguish between an academic publication and DaemonNews.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 6:14:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DEE37B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f66DEMb15808 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:14:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA12306 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:14:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:14:21 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:38:08AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wrote: > Yes, since your definition of "reference" is hitting the Google search > engine and choosing the phrases you like. I didn't even bother doing > my own search: your own references discredit you so thoroughly (apart > from the fact that you can't distinguish between an academic > publication and DaemonNews.) I'd like to add: the proper place to look for a definition is a dictionary, rather than your hodgepodge of out-of-context quotes and student writing guides. The Oxford English Dictionary defines plagiarism as: "the action or practice of plagiarizing; the wrongful appropriation or purloining, and publication as one's own, of the ideas, or the expression of the ideas (literary, artistic, musical, mechanical, etc.) of another." (http://www.library.dal.ca/killam/instruct/plagiar.htm) From the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary pla*giar*ize (BrE also -ise) /pledraz/ verb (disapproving) to copy another person's ideas, words or work and pretend that they are your own: [vn] He was accused of plagiarizing his colleague's results. [also v] pla*giar*ism /pledrzm/ noun [U, C] (disapproving) an act of plagiarizing sth; sth that has been plagiarized: There were accusations of plagiarism. a text full of plagiarisms (http://www1.oup.co.uk/elt/oald/) If you find an authoritative reference work claiming that an unattributed quote, even when clearly marked as a quote, is plagiarism, let me know. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 7:54:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB0B37B40B for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15763; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:54:20 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:14 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I'd like to add: the proper place to look for a definition is a >dictionary, rather than your hodgepodge of out-of-context quotes >and student writing guides. > >The Oxford English Dictionary defines plagiarism as: > > "the action or practice of plagiarizing; the wrongful appropriation > or purloining, and publication as one's own, of the ideas, or the > expression of the ideas (literary, artistic, musical, mechanical, > etc.) of another." >(http://www.library.dal.ca/killam/instruct/plagiar.htm) The above is only a portion of the OED's definition. Also, you neglect to mention that the web site from which you extracted that short excerpt goes on to say: "The University attaches great importance to the contribution of original thought to scholarship. It attaches equal importance to the correct attribution of authorities from which facts and opinions have been derived. "The proper use of footnotes and other methods of attribution varies from discipline to discipline. Failure to abide by the attribution standards of the discipline concerned in the preparation of essays, term papers and dissertations or theses may, in some cases, constitute plagiarism. "Students who are in any doubt about the proper forms of citation and attribution of authorities and sources should discuss the matter in advance with the faculty members for whom they are preparing assignments. In many academic departments, written statem ents on matters of this kind are made available as a matter of routine or can be obtained on request." (See http://www.library.dal.ca/killam/instruct/dalpolcy.htm) In short, Rahul, you're skating on thin ice here. Throughout the world and throughout the Web, quoting without proper attribution is UNIVERSALLY considered to be plagiarism. And Greg gave me NO attribution. None. >>From the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary > > pla*giar*ize (BrE also -ise) /pledraz/ verb (disapproving) to copy > another person's ideas, words or work and pretend that they are your > own: [vn] He was accused of plagiarizing his colleague's results. > [also v] > pla*giar*ism /pledrzm/ noun [U, C] (disapproving) an act of > plagiarizing sth; sth that has been plagiarized: There were > accusations of plagiarism. a text full of plagiarisms >(http://www1.oup.co.uk/elt/oald/) The reference above is to a highly abridged dictionary for children. >If you find an authoritative reference work claiming that an >unattributed quote, even when clearly marked as a quote, is >plagiarism, let me know. I happen to be spending the weekend at the house of a scholar who, while he doesn't have the OED, has Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language. (The book is so heavy that it's awkward to lift; he keeps it on a stand in his study.) It says: plagiarize (v.t.): To steal or purloin and use as one's own (The ideas, words, artistic productions, etc., of another); to use without due credit the ideas, expressions, or productions of (another). Note the latter half of the definition. A similar definition is online at http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=plagiarizing Another authoritative reference: The MLA Style Manual (http://www.mla.org/www_mla_org/style/style_index.asp?mode=section) which is the gold standard among academic syle guides. My friend has this here, too. It states, simply: "Plagiarism is the use of another person's ideas or expressions in your writing without acknowledging the source." And finally, Microsoft's Encarta (formerly Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia), at http://encarta.msn.com/ says, authoritatively: "Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d' Type mismatch: '[string: "rel"]' /intl/bver.inc, line 25" ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8: 4:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048CE37B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f66F4Tb28092 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:04:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA17347 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:04:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:04:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Message-ID: <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:54:20AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "The University attaches great importance to the contribution of > original thought to scholarship. It attaches equal importance to the > correct attribution of authorities from which facts and opinions have > been derived. > > "The proper use of footnotes and other methods of attribution varies from > discipline to discipline. Failure to abide by the attribution standards of > the discipline concerned in the preparation of essays, term papers and > dissertations or theses may, in some cases, constitute plagiarism. > > "Students who are in any doubt about the proper forms of citation and > attribution of authorities and sources should discuss the matter in advance > with the faculty members for whom they are preparing assignments. In many > academic departments, written statem ents on matters of this kind are made > available as a matter of routine or can be obtained on request." Note the word "may". Note also that this refers to scholarly academic writing, where citations are indeed important. Quoting without naming the original is undoubtedly undesirable and in some circumstances unethical in scholarly academic writing, which an article on DaemonNews is not. But the word "plagiarism" for what Greg did is completely wrong. > I happen to be spending the weekend at the house of a scholar who, > while he doesn't have the OED, has Webster's New International > Dictionary of the English Language. (The book is so heavy that it's > awkward to lift; he keeps it on a stand in his study.) It says: > > plagiarize (v.t.): To steal or purloin and use as one's own (The > ideas, words, artistic productions, etc., of another); to use > without due credit the ideas, expressions, or productions of > (another). "Use" is not defined in the second part, but if we take the meaning to be the same as in the first clause, the meaning is "use as one's own", not "quote for reference". (Aside: Webster has mutilated the English language -- or American language, as some editions call it -- in so many other respects that perhaps a little more doesn't hurt.... not that recent entries to the OED are guilt-free, though.) > Another authoritative reference: The MLA Style Manual > (http://www.mla.org/www_mla_org/style/style_index.asp?mode=section) > which is the gold standard among academic syle guides. My friend > has this here, too. It states, simply: > > "Plagiarism is the use of another person's ideas or expressions > in your writing without acknowledging the source." But he did acknowledge the source, a mailing list. Even if he didn't, I take "use" to mean "use as your own ideas", not "refer to in quotation marks". R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8: 8: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76C337B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15911; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:07:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090232.0463acd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:06:19 -0600 To: Giorgos Keramidas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) Cc: Mike Meyer , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706104045.C6349@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706013412.04490750@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> <20010706103257.B6349@hades.hell.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706013412.04490750@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 AM 7/6/2001, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Actually, it was not GPL I was referring to, but those 'pre-GPL' >people described by Mike that would say 'this is public domain, and >all can use it, except for so and so...'. I understand. What I'm saying, though, is that the GPL goes far beyond this by being viral and by INTENTIONALLY trying to sabotage programmers' livelihoods. Also, as DES said in an earlier message in this thread, most users of the GPL don't realize what the GPL is really about. They read only the "preamble," which claims (deceptively) that the GPL makes software "free" when in fact it encumbers it. (This false recital, which cannot be detached from the license, may well be a reason for a judge to invalidate it.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:19:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A57737B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16042; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:19:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:18:55 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> "The proper use of footnotes and other methods of attribution varies from >> discipline to discipline. Failure to abide by the attribution standards of >> the discipline concerned in the preparation of essays, term papers and >> dissertations or theses may, in some cases, constitute plagiarism. >> >> "Students who are in any doubt about the proper forms of citation and >> attribution of authorities and sources should discuss the matter in advance >> with the faculty members for whom they are preparing assignments. In many >> academic departments, written statem ents on matters of this kind are made >> available as a matter of routine or can be obtained on request." > >Note the word "may". The "may" refers to failure to abide by strict attribution standards. Greg did not attribute my words to me at all. For this reason, there is NO QUESTION that what he did was plagiarism. >"Use" is not defined in the second part, but if we take the meaning >to be the same as in the first clause, the meaning is "use as one's >own", not "quote for reference". Sorry, Rahul, but this is a very weak argument. What Greg did is plagiarism by any standard -- academic or journalistic. Read the THOUSANDS of pages on the Web, published by universities all over the world. There is universal consensus that failing to cite constitutes plagiarism. >> Another authoritative reference: The MLA Style Manual >> (http://www.mla.org/www_mla_org/style/style_index.asp?mode=section) >> which is the gold standard among academic syle guides. My friend >> has this here, too. It states, simply: >> >> "Plagiarism is the use of another person's ideas or expressions >> in your writing without acknowledging the source." > >But he did acknowledge the source, a mailing list. This is akin to saying, "I did acknowledge the source: A book!" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:26:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED13437B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16094; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:26:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706092422.045f4bf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:26:16 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >"Use" is not defined in the second part, but if we take the meaning >to be the same as in the first clause, the meaning is "use as one's >own", not "quote for reference". The online Merriam-Webster definition I cited, does not have the word "use" in the first sense but is otherwise quite similar. >(Aside: Webster has mutilated the English language -- or American >language, as some editions call it -- in so many other respects that >perhaps a little more doesn't hurt.... Argumentum ad hominem. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:29:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8754137B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16123; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:29:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706092644.04532aa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:28:59 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Cc: Greg Lehey , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:38 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >For what it's worth, what Greg wrote was not an academic article, but >journalism. Unattributed quotes are commonplace in journalism and >sometimes preferred Untrue. See "What is plagiarism in print journalism" at http://www.towson.edu/~bhalle/feat.html as well as the AP and Chicago style manuals. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:31:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B402C37B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f66FVHb31236 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:31:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA18623 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:31:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:31:17 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Message-ID: <20010706173117.N99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2001 at 09:18:55: > At 09:04 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> "The proper use of footnotes and other methods of attribution varies from > >> discipline to discipline. Failure to abide by the attribution standards of > >> the discipline concerned in the preparation of essays, term papers and > >> dissertations or theses may, in some cases, constitute plagiarism. > >> > >> "Students who are in any doubt about the proper forms of citation and > >> attribution of authorities and sources should discuss the matter in advance > >> with the faculty members for whom they are preparing assignments. In many > >> academic departments, written statem ents on matters of this kind are made > >> available as a matter of routine or can be obtained on request." > > > >Note the word "may". > > The "may" refers to failure to abide by strict attribution standards. Greg > did not attribute my words to me at all. For this reason, there is NO > QUESTION that what he did was plagiarism. He abided by perfectly adequate attribution standards for this medium. In a scholarly paper you are supposed to cite to a level of accuracy which enables the reader to track down the original in a library (or these days on an online archive): saying "Brett Glass said" would not be enough. In less formal writing, giving the source (a FreeBSD mailing list) is quite adequate. In fact it's more than adequate: with what he wrote, interested people can readily search for the original if they really want to, and find it within seconds. > >"Use" is not defined in the second part, but if we take the meaning > >to be the same as in the first clause, the meaning is "use as one's > >own", not "quote for reference". > > Sorry, Rahul, but this is a very weak argument. Why? It's a very obvious argument. Despite my lack of respect for Webster, I still assume that the authors are consistent and don't change the meaning of a verb mid-sentence. > plagiarism by any standard -- academic or journalistic. Read > the THOUSANDS of pages on the Web, published by universities all > over the world. There is universal consensus that failing to > cite constitutes plagiarism. Failing to cite in journalism never constitutes plagiarism and seldom constitutes impropriety. Open today's newspaper and count the quotes like "an unnamed official said" (which are always because the journalist didn't want to name the official at possible risk to the latter, or because the official explicitly requested not to be named.) In academic circles, failure to give a full citation is improper, yes: but it is not plagiarism even by your Webster definition. > >> Another authoritative reference: The MLA Style Manual > >> (http://www.mla.org/www_mla_org/style/style_index.asp?mode=section) > >> which is the gold standard among academic syle guides. My friend > >> has this here, too. It states, simply: > >> > >> "Plagiarism is the use of another person's ideas or expressions > >> in your writing without acknowledging the source." > > > >But he did acknowledge the source, a mailing list. > > This is akin to saying, "I did acknowledge the source: A book!" No, it's like saying "in the journal Nature" or "in the New York Times recently" -- how many news articles give a full citation with volume and page number and names of authors? But you can find it if you want to, and it's even easier to find if the reference is a FreeBSD mailing list. You're just arguing in circles, and looking out for potentially ambiguous usages of words like "use", because you cannot defend your claim on this in any concrete way. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:41:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFC637B407 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16232; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:41:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:40:59 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706173117.N99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:31 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >[Greg] abided by perfectly adequate attribution standards for this medium. Not so. Daemon News is a technical journal that also appears in print. >Despite my lack of respect for Webster, Argumentum ad hominem again. >I still assume that the authors are consistent and don't >change the meaning of a verb mid-sentence. Again, see the Merriam-Webster definition online. >You're just arguing in circles, No, Rahul, YOU are. Your arguments have been so weak that you've now resorted to arguing ad hominem against authoritative sources such as Webster's dictionary and the MLA Manual. You are apparently unwilling, at any cost, to admit that you did not know the full meaning of the word "plagiarism." I think I've proved to the satisfaction of any resonable person that what Greg did crossed well over the line, and that he owes me, at the very least, an apology. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 8:50:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96D637B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f66Foab33008 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:50:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA19482 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:50:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:50:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Message-ID: <20010706175036.O99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> <20010706173117.N99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:40:59AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2001 at 09:40:59: > At 09:31 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >[Greg] abided by perfectly adequate attribution standards for this medium. > > Not so. Daemon News is a technical journal that also appears in print. Most newspapers and magazines that I'm aware of do appear in print. That does not make them technical journals. > >I still assume that the authors are consistent and don't > >change the meaning of a verb mid-sentence. > > Again, see the Merriam-Webster definition online. So here it is: plagiarize [etymology etc skipped] transitive senses : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source I fail to see how it supports your position any better than the Webster print version. > No, Rahul, YOU are. Your arguments have been so weak that you've > now resorted to arguing ad hominem against authoritative sources > such as Webster's dictionary and the MLA Manual. No. I don't like Webster, but it supports me on this. So does your online Merriam-Webster. Your quote from the MLA manual is one single sentence with the ambiguous word "use" which I consider inadequate; besides, I never criticised that work: I'm not at all familiar with it. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 9:26: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E757D37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16782; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706101510.045efb60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:25:33 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706175036.O99228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> <20010706103808.A99228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010706151421.I99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706071808.04536ef0@localhost> <20010706170429.M99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706090739.045bc340@localhost> <20010706173117.N99228@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:50 AM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Most newspapers and magazines that I'm aware of do appear in print. >That does not make them technical journals. Non sequitur. >So here it is: > plagiarize > [etymology etc skipped] > transitive senses : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of > another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting > the source > intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and > original an idea or product derived from an existing source > >I fail to see how it supports your position any better than the >Webster print version. Simple. The second transitive sense is EXACTLY what Greg did. The most telling point, however -- and one which brings this tangent home to the original topics of BSD advocacy and the culture of BSD -- is that failing to give credit is contrary to the BSD philosophy. BSD has deep roots in academia, and therefore the standard for attribution in the BSD world has always been that of academia: Use my work, but give credit where credit is due. One of the most fundamental principles of BSD and of the BSD License is that one should (and, in the case of BSD-licensed works, MUST) give others credit for what they produce. By failing to properly attribute my words, Greg did more than plagiarize me: he violated one of the bedrock principles of BSD. This does not bode well for him as a spokesman. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 9:52:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE1C37B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA41100; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:52:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705135915.00bb8a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125524.04502690@localhost> <20010703134058.A9446@mooseriver.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705171812.04523b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705162529.04521930@localhost> <15172.52545.788676.736485@guru.mired.org> <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jul 2001 18:52:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15173.2796.630368.467005@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > If their understanding is no better than it was before the GPL was > introduced, that's certainly true. A large percentage of them simply > slapped "This code is in the public domain. Not for commercial use." - > or words to that effect - on their code. ...which is self-contradictory - if they place it in the public domain, they waive all rights to it, and thus lose the right to deny commercial use. > For such people the GPL is an improvement, as it comes much closer to > their intent than what they were doing before. Possibly, but I think most of them - though they may have read and understood the GPL - have never spent even five minutes trying to work out the implications of the GPL and the motives behind it. They just see that Linus uses it (though they may not realize that he uses a bastardized version, or understand why he needs to) and therefore conclude that It Must Be Good. They've probably never even heard of the BSD or MIT or Apache licenses. To summarize, I'm trying to say that although it may be a conscious decision, it's rarely an educated one. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 12:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from best.llama.com (llama.com [63.194.69.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F102F37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from the@best.llama.com) Received: (from the@localhost) by best.llama.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA51455 for chat@freeBSD.ORG; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from the) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:58:57 -0700 From: Sam Habash To: chat@freeBSD.ORG Subject: [brett@lariat.org: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman)] Message-ID: <20010706125857.A51402@llama.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass stated: > One of the most fundamental principles of BSD and of the BSD License > is that one should (and, in the case of BSD-licensed works, MUST) give > others credit for what they produce. By failing to properly attribute > my words, Greg did more than plagiarize me: he violated one of the > bedrock principles of BSD. This does not bode well for him as a > spokesman. First time caller.... Had he been guilty of the same lack of attribution in support your views, you would be singing his praises, or else arguing to downplay any supposed impropriety. Greg seems like a fine choice, if you have any further arguments to the contrary, they should be a lot more substantial than what he thinks on your pet issue. The peanut gallery (or at least my seat in it) says this particular exchange should be continued privately. But feel free to differ, it will only hurt your cause. Thanks, --Sam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- the@llama.com Llama Dot Com... dotcom Go BLEET! "no servicable parts inside this .sig"... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 13:16:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8F037B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19453; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:16:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706141528.0442b8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:16:15 -0600 To: Sam Habash , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: [brett@lariat.org: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman)] In-Reply-To: <20010706125857.A51402@llama.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:58 PM 7/6/2001, Sam Habash wrote: >Had he been guilty of the same lack of attribution in support your >views, you would be singing his praises, or else arguing to downplay >any supposed impropriety. Incorrect and unfounded. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 13:21:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F0C37B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:21:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f66KLMk50115 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:21:22 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: NetBSD people Message-ID: <20010706132122.A50065@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If there are any NetBSD people in the San Francisco Bay Area on this list please contact me. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 14: 7:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EEF237B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20126; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:07:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706150541.00e06e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:06:56 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:03 PM 7/6/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > Brett, do me a favor. Go ask ten people whose opinions you respect the >following question: > > An author wishes to show how some supporters of a particular position >defend it. So he writes: "Typical ways this position is argued for and >defended are as follows in the examples below" and he lists three brief >(paragraph length) excerpts showing ways the position is defended. He >clearly indicates that he does not agree with these excerpts and that they >are quotations from others. He does not attribute the quotations. Would you >consider this plagiarism? It absolutely is. This wouldn't even get past a competent High School English teacher! See any of the references I cited. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 14:10:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D50937B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f66LAAb55565 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:10:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA30645 ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:10:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:10:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Message-ID: <20010706231009.B27966@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706150541.00e06e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706150541.00e06e30@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 03:06:56PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2001 at 15:06:56: > At 03:03 PM 7/6/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Brett, do me a favor. Go ask ten people whose opinions you respect the > >following question: > > > > An author wishes to show how some supporters of a particular position > >defend it. So he writes: "Typical ways this position is argued for and > >defended are as follows in the examples below" and he lists three brief > >(paragraph length) excerpts showing ways the position is defended. He > >clearly indicates that he does not agree with these excerpts and that they > >are quotations from others. He does not attribute the quotations. Would you > >consider this plagiarism? > > It absolutely is. This wouldn't even get past a competent High School English > teacher! See any of the references I cited. You can't read, can you? He didn't ask your opinion: he asked you to seek the view of ten people whose opinions you respect. Maybe there aren't any? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 15:56:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.knology.net (user-24-214-63-14.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A387037B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: (qmail 29895 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 22:56:52 -0000 Received: from user-24-214-56-224.knology.net (HELO bsd.havk.org) (24.214.56.224) by user-24-214-63-14.knology.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 22:56:52 -0000 Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A5A2F1A843; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:56:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:56:25 -0500 From: Steve Price To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: gdb debugging tips Message-ID: <20010706175625.J65832@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been having problems with a software package for which I only have a binary with no debugging symbols. In talking to the folks that wrote the software I know what arguments the routine takes I just need to be able to see them in the debugger. Here's what I've done: Fire up the program. Attach to the pid of the running process with 'gdb lsv 10336'. I've set the breakpoint at the routine that I'm interested in 'break LH2P' and I've coerced the program to run to the breakpoint. Here's where I'm lost. I'm back in gdb and it is waiting for me to tell it what to do. I know the function LH2P takes one argument a 'char *'. How do I view a function's arguments? With debugging symbols this is as easy as 'where'. I figured 'info args' would be the ticket but all it says is 'No symbol table info avialable'. Now I'm betting the information from 'info frame' is the key but how to decipher it. Thanks. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 15:59: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C9A37B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21313; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:58:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706165541.0466c4f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:58:38 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010706231009.B27966@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706150541.00e06e30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706093248.04533cf0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706150541.00e06e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:10 PM 7/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >You can't read, can you? He didn't ask your opinion: he asked you to >seek the view of ten people whose opinions you respect. Again, no-brainer. Remember, Laramie is a college town. People know very well what plagiarism and academic dishonesty are. I could ask the first ten prominent citizens I saw and they would be unanimous. My host is certainly adamant in his opinion. He says you're trolling. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 16: 8:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3DC37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21420; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706165914.04670ec0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:08:26 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Plagiarism (Was: FreeBSD spokesman) Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <20010706231009.B27966@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:21 PM 7/6/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > Well, I've asked six people so far. Three nos. Which shows only that they are ignorant of what plagiarism is, not that they'd answer "yes" if they knew. >One "no, unless the >arguments he's citing are particularly innovative or were told to him >privately without permission to replicate." Which shows that this person is confusing plagiarism with copyright infringement. (I suspect that the others might have as well, perhaps considering the quotations to be "fair use.") >One gave a confused position >that I still don't understand (sort of that one might be justified in >failing to attribute when one is disagreeing with someone whose full view >one is not elaborating but that it might be plagiarism even though it's >justifiable, I think). Yes, that's confusing. >One said, "You cannot send messages longer than 450 >characters to a user who is offline", which I think means he doesn't think >it's plagiarism. Maybe his ISP is trying to PREVENT plagiarism. ;-) In any event, since all of the people you did ask appear not to know the definition of plagiarism, perhaps you should show them an authoritative definition before asking them to render an opinion. If they don't know what the word means, it hardly pays to ask them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 16:24: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982E337B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA34062 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f66NPeF75868 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706012158.0449d990@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706012158.0449d990@localhost> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:12:08 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass, quite obviously, has very strong opinions on Stallman and the GPL. He is welcome to promote his positions in any forum that will accept him. In fact, I strongly support his right to do so (and my own right to skip past his messages, when I've had enough of them :-). OTOH, I have NO interest in having Brett act as any sort of "official" spokesperson for FreeBSD in particular or BSD in general. And, reading the recent traffic on this list, it appears that I am far from alone in this position. Any "official" spokesman for FreeBSD needs to have a "centrist" position on most issues, a tolerance for diversity, the ability to compromise on occasion, and strong technical credentials (e.g., as a committer or some other form of substantial contributor to FreeBSD). Then, with the center well covered, folks like Brett can push their own positions. If I don't agree with Brett's position on an issue, I can simply shrug and say "That's Brett's opinion". In contrast, if Brett were to become an official spokesperson, I would have a much harder time supporting FreeBSD. FWIW, my own position is that long-term FreeBSD's strengths lie in its commitment to good engineering, "best practice", etc. The Linux folks can adopt a routine here or there, but until they understand the need to have clean code and organization throughout, their systems will not be as robust or maintainable as the BSDs are. As an example of what I'm discussing, consider the relationship between installed files and the underlying source code. In FreeBSD, a fairly small number of rules can be used to find the source code for any given file on the system (e.g., /bin/foo is built from /usr/src/bin/foo, using /usr/obj/usr/src/bin/foo along the way). I asked my Linuxish friends about how the Linux source tree does this sort of thing. Well, it seems that each Linux variant does it differently, and none of them are nearly as well organized as FreeBSD... -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 16:28:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rebel.net.au (rebel.rebel.net.au [203.20.69.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2837537B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lloy0076@rebel.net.au) Received: from rebel.net.au (dialup-6.rebel.net.au [203.20.69.76]) by rebel.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA19473 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:58:07 +0930 Message-ID: <3B464A58.D8DAF2FD@rebel.net.au> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 09:01:36 +0930 From: David Lloyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) References: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's just all shut up and let BSD be totally forgetten because we might accidentally use a portion of what someone else said without attributing it. Honestly, the various exchanges in this spokesman flame war wouldn't befit a group of three year olds. [Lloyd 2001] DSL Lloyd, David: quoting himself (ps) If someone else has said that, I would be grateful if someone could tell me so I can attribute it correctly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 20:28:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (mail.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26A4237B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 29991 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jul 2001 03:24:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:24:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org People who use it because they don't know better probably aren't making very good software, if it doesn't mean enough to them to thoroughly investigate licensing, etc. People who use that logic should use the MS EULA anyway, I mean Microsoft uses it, and Microsoft is > Linux ;) -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 20:30:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp97.lemis.com [192.109.197.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BAE37B408; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:30:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f663uuV00390; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:56:56 -0700 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010705205656.C327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:55:07PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 5 July 2001 at 12:55:07 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:37 AM 7/5/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> (and plagiarized me in a recent column while doing so). >> >> No, I quoted you verbatim. > > Without attribution. Quoting without attribution is plagiarism. No, quoting is never plagiarism as long as it's an obvious quote, as in this case. Plagiarism is the act of claiming that one has written a text which has really been written by somebody else. I was criticizing your stance (not for the first time, and obviously not for the last), so it's pretty clear that I wasn't claiming it as my own work (which would have been counterproductive) nor as a satire (which would have been less effective). I personally felt ashamed for you, which is why I didn't mention your name, but it seems that this feeling of shame was misplaced. You'll note that I *did* provide a link to the original discussion, so anybody who wasn't bored to tears by the topic could have confirmed that it was, indeed, you who wrote the text. If you wish, the next time I find reason to quote you in Daemon's Advocate, I shall mention you by name. It would read something like this: In a previous issue of "Daemon's advocate", I have quoted a representative of the rabid fringe of BSD advocacy. Out of my own interpretation of a feeling of decency, I did not mention the name of the person in question, though I did include a link to the discussion for anybody who was sufficiently interested. The person in question, Brett Glass , was offended by the lack of attribution, and claims that it constitutes plagiarism. I apologize for this misunderstanding. It was never my intention to claim that his views were my own--indeed, it was very much my intention to claim that his views were *not* my own. In addition, I had no intention of obfuscating his identity. However, if I had at some time made such comments, I would be grateful if nobody rubbed my nese in them. In this issue, I again find it necessary to disagree strongly with Brett's viewpoint. I will not make the same mistake I made before: it was Brett who said: (hypothetical text) Would you prefer something like that? If not, what would you like changed? > The editors of Daemon News should not have allowed any such thing to > a occur, as it is fundamentally unethical. In the scientific and > technical community, such a breach of ethics is generally sufficient > to disqualify someone from publishing -- and certainly from being a > spokesperson. Normally I would ask for a clarification of this statement. In this case, however, based on previous experience, please don't attempt to clarify. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 20:31:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp97.lemis.com [192.109.197.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D804737B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f663wqX00397; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:58:52 -0700 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman (was: So what happens to FreeBSD now?) Message-ID: <20010705205852.D327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> <20010702211810.B325@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010703141550.045f5340@localhost> <20010705123729.M371@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705125211.04638740@localhost> <20010705224626.O47721@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010705163434.04524b00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:47:26PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 5 July 2001 at 16:47:26 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:46 PM 7/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Plagiarism is claiming someone else's work as your own. > > It is also incorporating the work of others without attribution. > To quote from the languaged of the academic dishonesty policy used > by the University of Arkansas and many other institutions (see > http://www.nwacc.cc.ar.us/bus-comp/TCash/Rules.htm)), > > "Plagiarism occurs both when the words of another are reproduced > without acknowledgment or when the ideas or arguments of another are > paraphrased in such a way as to lead the reader to believe that they > originated with the writer." > > See also: > > http://www.arl.org/symp3/givler.html#note6 > > "Plagiarism is the use of someone else's ideas without attribution, > whether or not the specific language in which the ideas are being > expressed has also been taken from someone else." > > http://www.keganlaw.com/faq.htm > > "Academic plagiarism is using another's work without attribution." > > http://www.du.edu/law/lawreview/honorcode.htm > > "In general, plagiarism is using the ideas or statements of someone > else without attribution." > > http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/plagiarism.html > > "You are obligated, as an ethical obligation to other writers and as > a defense for yourself, to acknowledge all borrowings you take from > other sources, even if you don't copy the exact words used in the > original— \227? What does that mean? > even if you never actually quote the original. Plagiarism includes: > > 1. Quoting material without attribution. The most obvious kind of > plagiarism. > > And on and on.... There are thousands of references on the Web. Nothing you mention there addresses the issue of anonymous attribution. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 6 22:38:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8634937B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:38:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24141; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:38:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706232508.04669960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:38:03 -0600 To: Rich Morin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD spokesman. In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010706012158.0449d990@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010705190110.045359a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010706012158.0449d990@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:12 PM 7/6/2001, Rich Morin wrote: >Brett Glass, quite obviously, has very strong opinions on Stallman and >the GPL. He is welcome to promote his positions in any forum that will >accept him. Thank you. And, no, you're not obliged to listen if the conversation gets dull or repetitive. I realize that it does at times. Part of advocacy, alas, is repeating oneself more than one would like. >OTOH, I have NO interest in having Brett act as any sort of "official" >spokesperson for FreeBSD in particular or BSD in general. I certainly wouldn't want to be a sole spokesman. But I think that it is important that someone champion the BSD philosophy and voice the many ethical and practical arguments against the GPL. I could certainly play that role. >Any "official" spokesman for FreeBSD needs to have a "centrist" position >on most issues, Actually, the idea that the GPL is destructive, and that the BSD License is superior, *is* a centrist position. The extremes are the GPL and Microsoft. The BSD philosophy lies between these two extremes, both of which are destructive. >a tolerance for diversity, the ability to compromise on >occasion, and strong technical credentials (e.g., as a committer or some >other form of substantial contributor to FreeBSD). I believe that I have all of these except the status of a committer. (It's probably better that I *not* be a committer, since I do not at all like the C language and prefer to program in just about anything else!) There is really only one area in which I strongly believe that there is no room for compromise: ethics. The GPL is unethical, IMHO, in that it's discriminatory and destructive. It is also counter to the BSD philosophy. It is important that we be as uncompromising on this point as the GPL zealots are on the other side. YMMV, of course. >FWIW, my own position is that long-term FreeBSD's strengths lie in its >commitment to good engineering, "best practice", etc. This is certainly one of FreeBSD's strongest points. (But, of course, Linux fans will claim the same for THEIR preferred OS.) I would argue that the true distinction lies deeper -- in philosophy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 7 14:54:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06DF37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:54:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1756"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5NPKGEPG8003680@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:54:40 EST Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 17:56:00 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Things you learn in school To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B478570.67B193CB@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C491DD8BBF342A25984B3FFF" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C491DD8BBF342A25984B3FFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys; Today we were taught by an IBM employee that also teaches in CMU the following interesting facts; * Apache is opensource because it's developed by a consortium. Java is also opensource. * Linux is the choice for implementing webservices because it runs on any type of hardware. * The absolute majority of the web servers are powered by Apache and by Linux. One company that depends on both technologies is Yahoo. This is a grad engineering course called Ecommerce Tools. I remained silent to points 1 and 2, but of course I jumped when I heard no. 3 ...good thing that I was wearing my FreeBSD T-shirt today....one Linux user really liked it :). cheers, Pedro. --------------C491DD8BBF342A25984B3FFF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------C491DD8BBF342A25984B3FFF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 7 19:16:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B922937B406 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02515; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:16:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010707201424.047cfe40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 20:15:43 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Things you learn in school In-Reply-To: <3B478570.67B193CB@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Professor, why is that man banging his head against that tree?" "To loosen the bark so the tree will grow better." --Brett (With apologies to Charles Schultz, of course) At 03:56 PM 7/7/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Hi guys; > >Today we were taught by an IBM employee that also teaches in CMU the >following interesting facts; > >* Apache is opensource because it's developed by a consortium. Java is >also opensource. >* Linux is the choice for implementing webservices because it runs on >any type of hardware. >* The absolute majority of the web servers are powered by Apache and >by Linux. One company that depends on both technologies is Yahoo. > >This is a grad engineering course called Ecommerce Tools. > >I remained silent to points 1 and 2, but of course I jumped when I >heard no. 3 ...good thing that I was wearing my FreeBSD T-shirt >today....one Linux user really liked it :). > > > >cheers, > > Pedro.X-Content-Security: [lariat.org] original Content-Type was text/x-vcard; >Content-Type: application/octet-stream; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.1000DEFANGED-vcf" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.1000DEFANGED-vcf" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 7 20:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC45137B408 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0E6366ACBC; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:49:20 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:49:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Steve Price Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gdb debugging tips Message-ID: <20010708124919.G80862@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010706175625.J65832@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010706175625.J65832@bsd.havk.org>; from steve@havk.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:56:25PM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 6 July 2001 at 17:56:25 -0500, Steve Price wrote: > I've been having problems with a software package for which I > only have a binary with no debugging symbols. In talking to > the folks that wrote the software I know what arguments the > routine takes I just need to be able to see them in the debugger. Hmm. I suppose chat@ is a catchall, but I would have thought you could find a better mailing list for this question. I can't think of one at the moment, though, so I'll reply here. > Here's what I've done: > > Fire up the program. Attach to the pid of the running process > with 'gdb lsv 10336'. Hmm. I don't know this syntax. Is that really what you typed to the shell? > I've set the breakpoint at the routine that I'm interested in 'break > LH2P' and I've coerced the program to run to the breakpoint. > > Here's where I'm lost. I'm back in gdb and it is waiting for me to > tell it what to do. I know the function LH2P takes one argument a > 'char *'. How do I view a function's arguments? With debugging > symbols this is as easy as 'where'. I figured 'info args' would be > the ticket but all it says is 'No symbol table info avialable'. Now > I'm betting the information from 'info frame' is the key but how to > decipher it. I have some macros which handle this. You'll find them in /usr/src/sys/modules/vinum/.gdbinit.kernel. I must move them somewhere else, since this file isn't Vinum-specific. The commands you need are: f0 -- Select stack frame 0 and show assembler-level details f1 -- Select stack frame 1 and show assembler-level details f2 -- Select stack frame 2 and show assembler-level details f3 -- Select stack frame 3 and show assembler-level details f4 -- Select stack frame 4 and show assembler-level details f5 -- Select stack frame 5 and show assembler-level details xb -- Show 12 words starting at current BP value in hex xi -- List the next 10 instructions from the current IP value xp -- Show the register contents and the first four parameter xp0 -- Show the first parameter of current stack frame in various formats xp1 -- Show the second parameter of current stack frame in various formats xp2 -- Show the third parameter of current stack frame in various formats xp3 -- Show the fourth parameter of current stack frame in various formats xp4 -- Show the fifth parameter of current stack frame in various formats xs -- Show the last 12 words on stack in hex xxp -- Show the register contents and the first ten parameter y -- User-defined z -- Single step 1 instruction (over calls) and show next instruction zs -- Single step 1 instruction (through calls) and show next instruction You can get a complete list with 'help user'. Let me know if you have any questions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 7 23:22:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BC037B405; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D9C286ACC4; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:52:51 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:52:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Lloyd Cc: James Howard , Josef Grosch , Brett Glass , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Opposing" the "competition" (was: FreeBSD spokesman (was: Sowhat happens to FreeBSD now?)) Message-ID: <20010708155251.D80862@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3B45185B.82718445@rebel.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B45185B.82718445@rebel.net.au>; from lloy0076@rebel.net.au on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 11:16:03AM +0930 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 6 July 2001 at 11:16:03 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > James Howard said: > >> No. I first came to FreeBSD when I wanted to learn some programming >> stuff. Ever try to read GNU code? It is painful. > > Hang on a moment. The fact the code is bad has nothing to do with the > GPL or GNU. Give me some money and I'll spend an hour writing bad code > under a Microsoft EULA, the BSD Licence, the Artistic Licence...I'm sure > you get my drift. Agreed. I've read both good and bad GNU and BSD code. The fact that people compare them indicates that they're part of the same cultural space. >> I learned to write socket code from FreeBSD's finger >> implementation. And of course, supreme simplicity of the ports >> system is beautiful. There is no match anywhere else. > > wget -c blah > ./configure blah > make > make install As James says, there's nothing to match the Ports Collection: cd /usr/ports/foo/blah make install > Whilst, admittedly, one needs to use one's brain under Linux to make > sure you get the right "blah", You don't need that in the Ports Collection. > the rest doesn't seem that much more difficult than the Ports > collection. And what's wrong with apt-get under Debian... I don't know where to start. It's so completely confusing that I give up. That's not the point, though. Some things are better in BSD, other things are better in Linux. For most people, they're pretty much the same. It's just us techheads who fight about minor differences. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message