From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 1:54:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779C837B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7Q8sDt92728; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:54:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Oliver Fromme Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010824212042.A86744@xor.obsecurity.org> <200108251202.OAA54973@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108251202.OAA54973@lurza.secnetix.de>; from olli@secnetix.de on Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:02:21PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:02:21PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Probably because it's just too late. During the initial > discussion, the voices pro and contra were about 50:50 (at > least that was my impression), and finally the pro ones > succeeded, probably because they had more "weight" (this No, it succeeded because the pro's answered all the questions of the cons and provide work arounds. At the time I imported tcsh, I only remember two decenters. > _But_ my vote would be for still having a "real" csh in > /bin, additionally. (And don't tell me that tcsh is a > real csh -- it's not, see below.) By chance have you looked at the csh source in the CSRG SCCS files? How about the tcsh sources from "day 1" in its CVS repository? Tcsh *is* a direct decendent of CSRG csh. Christos Zulas maintined the CSRG csh in the 4.4 days. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 1:55:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15B937B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7Q8t7U92783; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:55:07 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826015507.D92548@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B857DB1.2050904@yahoo.com> <20010823194003.C5214@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B85C895.6020602@yahoo.com> <20010824094600W.jkh@freebsd.org> <20010824231053.U88304@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010824231053.U88304@futuresouth.com>; from fullermd@futuresouth.com on Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 11:10:53PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 11:10:53PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > Then please enumerate them so that they can be given due attention. > > This is exactly the sort of detailed feedback that was requested when > > we first raised the issue of switching over, and nobody could come up > > with any concrete differences that would cause harm, so the deed was > > done. > > It blew beets all over the startup script for ROM 2.4 MUD's. Error output?? Script?? We really cannot make things better w/o suffient information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 4: 3: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A38337B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7QB2c5149764; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:02:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7QB2bc265558; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:02:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:1sl+H6BVzm1axTqmf8xwfF4fN2vbjDG3@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id UAA14768; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:12:19 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Warner Losh Cc: "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:36:37 CST." <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> References: <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:12:18 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >In message <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> "David W. Chapman > Jr." writes: >: I'm running -current as of an hour ago. I've gotten this since I've >: been running 4.2-stable, any ideas on how I can find out what it >: belongs to? >: >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources > >Don't worry about these. > >Warner Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. The attached patch will print this message only when we boot the kernel by 'boot -v'. Kazu Index: isa_common.c =================================================================== RCS file: /src/CVS/src/sys/isa/isa_common.c,v retrieving revision 1.23 diff -u -r1.23 isa_common.c --- isa_common.c 2001/08/10 07:50:14 1.23 +++ isa_common.c 2001/08/26 10:24:03 @@ -416,10 +416,11 @@ /* * Disable the device. */ - bus_print_child_header(device_get_parent(child), child); - printf(" can't assign resources\n"); - if (bootverbose) - isa_print_child(device_get_parent(child), child); + if (bootverbose) { + bus_print_child_header(device_get_parent(child), child); + printf(" can't assign resources\n"); + isa_print_child(device_get_parent(child), child); + } bzero(cfg, sizeof (*cfg)); if (idev->id_config_cb) idev->id_config_cb(idev->id_config_arg, cfg, 0); To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 4:20:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [212.66.1.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2327A37B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07025; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:20:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:20:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... In-Reply-To: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.1-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > _But_ my vote would be for still having a "real" csh in > > /bin, additionally. (And don't tell me that tcsh is a > > real csh -- it's not, see below.) > > By chance have you looked at the csh source in the CSRG SCCS files? > How about the tcsh sources from "day 1" in its CVS repository? > Tcsh *is* a direct decendent of CSRG csh. Christos Zulas maintined the > CSRG csh in the 4.4 days. No doubt about that, but that's not the point. Did you read what i wrote further down in my message (what I referred to by "see below")? "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to behave like them. When I wrote "real csh", I meant a csh which exhibits the traditional behaviour and user interface ("look and feel", if you prefer) of a csh. tcsh does not. Someone used to work with a "real csh" simply can't be happy with tcsh, especially if he has to change frequently between using FreeBSD and other systems. It's a real PITA. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream" (E. A. Poe) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 4:47:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EF737B405 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7QBlTn19742; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:47:29 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:47:28 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Oliver Fromme Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826154728.A19673@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 13:20:23 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on > any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to > behave like them. > > When I wrote "real csh", I meant a csh which exhibits the > traditional behaviour and user interface ("look and feel", > if you prefer) of a csh. tcsh does not. Someone used to > work with a "real csh" simply can't be happy with tcsh, > especially if he has to change frequently between using > FreeBSD and other systems. It's a real PITA. I understand your thoughts, but I think you write them to the wrong list. Csh now maintained by tcsh people and known under "tcsh" name. If you want to restore tradition behaviour at some points, write complaints to tcsh developers instead. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 5:46:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE3037B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7QCjtm28227; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200108261245.f7QCjtm28227@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: bandix@looksharp.net, kc5vdj@yahoo.com Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010826024257.I65587-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:43:56 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Brandon D. Valentine" >On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: >>> Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) >>Too lazy? >Heh. You just uncomment one line in /etc/ttys and HUP init. It's not >compilicated. Indeed. However, there are some differences in startup of which to be aware (.xinitrc vs. .xsession). Cheers, david (who quit using xinit about a year ago....) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 7:30:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from EnContacto.Net (adsl-63-205-16-205.dsl.mtry01.pacbell.net [63.205.16.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6A737B409 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) Received: (from root@localhost) by EnContacto.Net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f7QEUei14619; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) Received: from 63.205.16.204 ( [63.205.16.204]) as user eculp@EnContacto.Net by Mail.SavvyWorld.Net with HTTP; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:30:39 -0700 Message-ID: <998836239.3b89080fbffa5@Mail.SavvyWorld.Net> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:30:39 -0700 From: Edwin Culp To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Jim Bryant , FreeBSD-CURRENT Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? References: <20010826024257.I65587-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> In-Reply-To: <20010826024257.I65587-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 63.205.16.204 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoting "Brandon D. Valentine" : | On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: | | >> Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) | > | > | >Too lazy? | | Heh. You just uncomment one line in /etc/ttys and HUP init. It's not | compilicated. If I remember right, the last time I tried, I had to make some changes in pam.conf. Could have changed. ed | | -- | "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a | law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 | | Brandon D. Valentine | | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org | with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn. --Alvin Toffler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 8:14: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E9B37B403; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f7QFB2S96740; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:11:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:11:02 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] Message-ID: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I believe that I have a real fix for the SCB timeout problems that have been plauging users of recent Intel fxp boards. If you have a board that uses the Intel ICH2/ICH2-M chipset (usually 815E style boards) and feel comfortable applying patches to the system, please contact me to test a fix. The patch works on two different boards here, but I would like to get some wider testing before I commit it to the tree. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 8:52: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C5C37B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QFpwq62613; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:51:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QFpvW11269; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:51:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Cc: "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:12:18 +0900." <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> References: <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:51:57 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Kazutaka YOKOTA writes: : Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. : : The attached patch will print this message only when we boot : the kernel by 'boot -v'. They are there to remind certain folks that the ISA PnP code is broken slightly and to please fix :-). If we get closer to 5.0 RC1, then yes. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 9:13:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6EB37B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08487; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:13:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05744; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:13:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15241.8227.759263.259051@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:13:23 -0600 To: David Wolfskill Cc: bandix@looksharp.net, kc5vdj@yahoo.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? In-Reply-To: <200108261245.f7QCjtm28227@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <20010826024257.I65587-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <200108261245.f7QCjtm28227@bunrab.catwhisker.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >>> Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) > > >>Too lazy? > > >Heh. You just uncomment one line in /etc/ttys and HUP init. It's not > >compilicated. > > Indeed. However, there are some differences in startup of which to be > aware (.xinitrc vs. .xsession). I just hard-link the two files together. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 9:16:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (hunkular.glarp.com [199.117.25.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FC337B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hunkular.glarp.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QGGhc85005; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:16:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Message-Id: <200108261616.f7QGGhc85005@hunkular.glarp.com> To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:12:18 +0900." <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:16:43 -0600 From: Brad Huntting Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources >: unknown: can't assign resources > Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. I would be satisfied just knowing what devices these messages correspond to. I suspect this the sentiment of the original poster as well. brad To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 9:52:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp9.xs4all.nl (smtp9.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74F037B409 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by smtp9.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26111; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:52:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7QGqYm04889; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:52:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:52:34 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Warner Losh Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Message-ID: <20010826185234.A4868@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org>; from imp@harmony.village.org on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 09:51:57AM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 09:51:57AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Kazutaka YOKOTA writes: > : Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. > : > : The attached patch will print this message only when we boot > : the kernel by 'boot -v'. > > They are there to remind certain folks that the ISA PnP code is broken > slightly and to please fix :-). If we get closer to 5.0 RC1, then > yes. They are also in RELENG_4.. Copyright (c) 1992-2001 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE #2: Mon Jul 30 20:35:10 CEST 2001 root@freebie.xs4all.nl:/usr/src/sys/compile/FREEBIE Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz ... unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 10: 9:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2317137B409 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7QH9T5153949; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:09:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7QH9Tc272071; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:09:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:aBS8yiijyTFQY9g8EDd7W+v8P6cX2Aih@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id CAA15944; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:19:12 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Warner Losh Cc: current@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:51:57 CST." <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> References: <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:19:11 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >In message <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Kazutaka YOK >OTA writes: >: Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. >: >: The attached patch will print this message only when we boot >: the kernel by 'boot -v'. > >They are there to remind certain folks that the ISA PnP code is broken >slightly and to please fix :-). If we get closer to 5.0 RC1, then >yes. > >Warner Um, we see these messages not only because our ISA PnP driver needs some update, but also because we create ISA device instances TWICE for each motherboard ISA devices, such as sio and atkbdc, due to /boot/device.hints. We need to have /boot/device.hints for those systems without PnP BIOS. On the system with the PnP BIOS, we shall have one ISA device instance (say, sio0) created by the isahint driver based on hints described in /boot/device.hints, and the pnpbios driver will create another instance (sio%d) for the very same device, based on information from the PnP BIOS. Then, we will see "unknown: can't assing resources" when the second device instance is probed. This happens even if the device driver understands PnP IDs. Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 10:26:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846B237B405 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:26:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QHVUr00901; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108261731.f7QHVUr00901@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brad Huntting Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:16:43 MDT." <200108261616.f7QGGhc85005@hunkular.glarp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:31:30 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > > Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. > > I would be satisfied just knowing what devices these messages > correspond to. I suspect this the sentiment of the original poster > as well. Then go look them up. I'm not about to stuff the entire PnP device database into the kernel just to satisfy your curiosity. 8( -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 10:28: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A99537B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QHS0q62869; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:28:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QHRxW11746; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:27:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108261727.f7QHRxW11746@harmony.village.org> To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:52:34 +0200." <20010826185234.A4868@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20010826185234.A4868@freebie.xs4all.nl> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:27:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010826185234.A4868@freebie.xs4all.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: : They are also in RELENG_4.. Those should be hidden by -v then :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 10:43:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from cage.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448FB37B405; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by cage.simianscience.com (8.11.5/8.11.5) id f7QHhjs14903; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.sentex.net (fcage [192.168.0.2]) by cage.simianscience.com (8.11.5/8.11.5av) with ESMTP id f7QHheM14895; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010826134043.0412ae78@192.168.0.12> X-Sender: mdtancsa@192.168.0.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:39 -0400 To: Jonathan Lemon , current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] In-Reply-To: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-10 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have it on two machines with this chipset and it looks good so far. After installing, dmesg shows fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem 0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 fxp0: *** DISABLING DYNAMIC STANDBY MODE IN EEPROM *** fxp0: New EEPROM ID: 0x49a0 fxp0: EEPROM checksum @ 0xff: 0xe441 -> 0xe443 fxp0: *** PLEASE REBOOT THE SYSTEM NOW FOR CORRECT OPERATION *** fxp0: Ethernet address 00:01:80:02:d0:34 inphy0: on miibus1 inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto and then one more reboot shows fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem 0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:01:80:02:d0:34 inphy0: on miibus1 inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto ---Mike At 10:11 AM 8/26/2001 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > I believe that I have a real fix for the SCB timeout problems >that have been plauging users of recent Intel fxp boards. > > If you have a board that uses the Intel ICH2/ICH2-M chipset >(usually 815E style boards) and feel comfortable applying >patches to the system, please contact me to test a fix. > > The patch works on two different boards here, but I would like >to get some wider testing before I commit it to the tree. >-- >Jonathan > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Network Administration, mike@sentex.net Sentex Communications www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 10:56:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C4D37B409; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QHu6q62967; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:56:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QHu5W11964; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:56:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108261756.f7QHu5W11964@harmony.village.org> To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? Cc: Mike Smith , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:40:09 CDT." <3B887DA9.1070709@yahoo.com> References: <3B887DA9.1070709@yahoo.com> <200108260134.f7Q1YXn22551@mass.dis.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:56:05 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B887DA9.1070709@yahoo.com> Jim Bryant writes: : > Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) : : Too lazy? vi /etc/ttys; s/off/on on xdm line; kill -1 1 Too lazy to do even that? Wow! That's Lazy :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 12:45:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6946437B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA76434; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:42:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:42:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Kaila To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jim Bryant , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... In-Reply-To: <20010825043725.A55393@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:50:33AM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > For 5.0, I maybe the black sheep in saying this, but I'd like to see > > /bin/csh be the real thing for 5.0. By all means, leave tcsh in > > /bin, but for the sake of backwards compatability, IMHO `ln > > /bin/tcsh /bin/csh` was a bad idea. > > Frankly, this isn't going to happen. We went through all this months > ago: please just accept the will of the community and drop the matter. > > Kris > Frankly, this exact statement is the sort of reason I didn't try to weigh in on this issue myself when it happened, or any of a dozen other issues. Adding tcsh is fine, renaming it to csh breaks things. That's like renaming less to more... oh wait, we already did that. The argument isn't to not add new software, it's not even to not drop old software. Add tcsh is fine. Get rid of csh is fine. Just don't call tcsh csh, without making sure the csh call is 100% compatible with the last version of csh shipped. If tcsh were csh, then it would be named csh. Guess what? It's named tcsh because it is NOT csh. It's better to have _nothing_ in /bin/csh and be done with it. If that had been done, I'd have been saved several hours of work and research personally to find out why scores of scripts broke, including some things as simple as login prompts that had embedded escape sequences. I won't say anything more on this issue, and probably on no others as I am fairly sure that it won't be listened to. I will just say that I have been using FreeBSD since 2.0-snap, and have been a consistent advocate of it. I have spent many thousands of dollars having merchandise made (pens, cards, etc), which I gave away free in an effort to bring in users. I have converted my entire company to FreeBSD, and I am now seriously looking at alternatives to FreeBSD. Perhaps net or open, perhaps linux, perhaps forking my own distribution. The motto used to be "do it right", not "do it the way WE want it on OUR machines, and screw the people who don't make the decisions or cause to much trouble to ignore." If you want to know why the user community is so quiet, you need to ask yourself. If you were spoken to this way, if your preferences and needs were consistently ignored on the basis "this is a volunteer project, neener!", how likely would you be to bother commenting? I realize I'll probably get flamed for this, but at this point, I no longer care. I won't be paying to have any more pens or cards made, I won't be making any more deals with companies to get free resources for this community, and I may begin transitioning my network soon. I can't keep spending more time fixing this kind of silly cruft than I did installing the os. [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 12:53:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0515437B406 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QJwLr02345; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108261958.f7QJwLr02345@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kaila Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jim Bryant , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:42:45 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:58:21 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The motto used to be "do it right", not "do it the way WE want it on OUR > machines, and screw the people who don't make the decisions or cause to much > trouble to ignore." It still is. And recognising that csh has evolved over the last decade is part of "doing it right". What you're really saying is "you didn't do what *I* think is right, and I'm packing up my toys and going home". That's your perogative, but it's hardly the mature stance to be taking. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 12:57:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C04337B405; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA76563; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:57:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:57:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Kaila To: Mike Smith Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jim Bryant , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... In-Reply-To: <200108261958.f7QJwLr02345@mass.dis.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Mike Smith wrote: > > The motto used to be "do it right", not "do it the way WE want it on OUR > > machines, and screw the people who don't make the decisions or cause to much > > trouble to ignore." > > It still is. And recognising that csh has evolved over the last decade > is part of "doing it right". > No, doing it right would have been including tcsh and deprecating csh, then dropping it later as has been done with other things. Naming linking it to csh broke things for people who weren't informed it was happeneing, and then had to go and spend hours tracking down the problem and fixing it. > What you're really saying is "you didn't do what *I* think is right, and > I'm packing up my toys and going home". > No, what I am saying is I am a long time user who is getting fed up with THIS type of comment and attitude, and that I might as well go find an alternative that "Does it right" instead of continuing to put up with having this sort of commentary lobbed at people who dare to voice their opinions. > That's your perogative, but it's hardly the mature stance to be taking. > Read over your response. What did it have to do with my issues? Nothing. It was a defensive reaction, resorting to name calling because you had nothing logical to refute with. Do you call THIS mature? [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 13:43:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0C737B40D; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7QKhQ129671; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:43:26 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Kaila Cc: Mike Smith , Kris Kennaway , Jim Bryant , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826134326.A29583@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <200108261958.f7QJwLr02345@mass.dis.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kaila@o-o.org on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 02:57:31PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 02:57:31PM -0500, Kaila wrote: > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Mike Smith wrote: > > Naming linking it to csh broke things for people who weren't informed it was > happeneing, and then had to go and spend hours tracking down the problem and > fixing it. > How could you be uninformed about this change? The csh vs. tcsh bikeshed happen 16 months ago in the freebsd-current mailing list. Speaking up 16 months later is an unusual way to let the developers know you have an opinion on this change. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14: 2:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB8237B410 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 05B5866DE9; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:02:36 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Oliver Fromme Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826140236.A21698@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de>; from olli@secnetix.de on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on > any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to > behave like them. This is an assertion. Where is your supporting evidence? Kris --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7iWPsWry0BWjoQKURAuiMAJ4lfXECx6rsJU2V/rRcz3e3lzWcVwCgjnru 6HvO9veI8odHy2XBS4UwPO0= =w4dD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14: 3:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AAB37B411 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:03:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01769; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:03:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: Warner Losh , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > >: I'm running -current as of an hour ago. I've gotten this since I've > >: been running 4.2-stable, any ideas on how I can find out what it > >: belongs to? > >: > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > > >Don't worry about these. > > Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. Shouldn't we just take the Linux/NetBSD information, and actually identify the things instead of saying "Unknown", instead, and leave them printing to encourage someone the messages annoy to do the work? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:11:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47E537B405 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QLB8q63448; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:11:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QLB8W12947; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:11:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108262111.f7QLB8W12947@harmony.village.org> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:03:39 PDT." <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> References: <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:11:08 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Shouldn't we just take the Linux/NetBSD information, and : actually identify the things instead of saying "Unknown", : instead, and leave them printing to encourage someone the : messages annoy to do the work? I'd guess that's too much work. Maybe someone can prove me wrong with trivial patches. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:14:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5230E37B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12354; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8966C8.46BD4F84@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:14:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826154728.A19673@nagual.pp.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrey A. Chernov" wrote: > > When I wrote "real csh", I meant a csh which exhibits the > > traditional behaviour and user interface ("look and feel", > > if you prefer) of a csh. tcsh does not. Someone used to > > work with a "real csh" simply can't be happy with tcsh, > > especially if he has to change frequently between using > > FreeBSD and other systems. It's a real PITA. > > I understand your thoughts, but I think you write them to the wrong list. > Csh now maintained by tcsh people and known under "tcsh" name. If you want > to restore tradition behaviour at some points, write complaints to tcsh > developers instead. I've been using csh since the early 80's. I can even *gasp!* write csh scripts fairly easily, and do substitution based changes to commands far faster than "cursor up 10 times and edit the command". I bitched about this, too, when the switch was being made, but was assured that the system wide defaults and account template defaults would be adjusted to provide traditional behaviour on FreeBSD. I was still grumpy about the change, but that at least was enough to mollify me into not objecting loudly and persitantly up to the import. Let me get this straight, though: _now_ you are saying that the system wide defaults and account template defaults will be whatever the tcsh maintainers say they are, and that any changes that the tcsh maintainers make with instantly and magically be imported into FreeBSD? I think there are a few logic flaws in your plan to have people submit their gripes about the defaults to the tcsh maintainers: 1) They set their defaults the way they like them, and are unlikely to change. 2) A lot of the people who shut up did so on the premise that the defaults would cause tcsh to behave like csh when invoked with that name, and that it was the tcsh users, NOT the csh users, who would have to change away from the system defaults to get their desired behaviour. 3) FreeBSD does not seem to track tcsh changes quickly or religiously enough for a lobbying effort to really be effective. While we may be stuck with this bait-and-switch "upgrade", I think his complaints are not co easily addressed. Certainly, the "exec" complaint remains valid, in any case: it's a bug that csh didn't have. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:21:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0699037B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7QLLSf25374; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:21:29 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:21:25 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010827012122.A25340@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826154728.A19673@nagual.pp.ru> <3B8966C8.46BD4F84@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B8966C8.46BD4F84@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 14:14:48 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > While we may be stuck with this bait-and-switch "upgrade", I > think his complaints are not co easily addressed. Certainly, > the "exec" complaint remains valid, in any case: it's a bug > that csh didn't have. Complaints _are_ easily addressed, tcsh author is responsible and fix all thing that I report to him. If you complain about 'upgrade' problem, i.e. we don't have latest tcsh, ask our tcsh maintainer for upgrade. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01CF37B40C for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16646; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:23:18 +0200 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f7QLNRd07971; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:23:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:23:26 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Warner Losh Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Message-ID: <20010826232326.B7850@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Warner Losh , tlambert2@mindspring.com, Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> <200108262111.f7QLB8W12947@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108262111.f7QLB8W12947@harmony.village.org>; from imp@harmony.village.org on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 03:11:08PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Warner Losh (imp@harmony.village.org): > I'd guess that's too much work. Maybe someone can prove me wrong with > trivial patches. Maintaining the device-table is probably the most work (since we already have the PNPnnnn string and most lists are sortedc by this string as well). Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:33:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EE637B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QLclr03272; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262138.f7QLclr03272@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kaila Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:57:31 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:38:47 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It still is. And recognising that csh has evolved over the last decade > > is part of "doing it right". > > No, doing it right would have been including tcsh and deprecating csh, then > dropping it later as has been done with other things. This is what was done. The old csh is deprecated, but still available. > Naming linking it to csh broke things for people who weren't informed it was > happeneing, and then had to go and spend hours tracking down the problem and > fixing it. This is what happens when software is upgraded. It's what they call the "price of progress". Most people don't seem to mind it until it impacts them personally, and then they tend to overreact. > > What you're really saying is "you didn't do what *I* think is right, and > > I'm packing up my toys and going home". > > No, what I am saying is I am a long time user who is getting fed up with THIS > type of comment and attitude, and that I might as well go find an alternative > that "Does it right" instead of continuing to put up with having this sort of > commentary lobbed at people who dare to voice their opinions. Opinions were voiced. A decision was made, based on those opinions. Anytime there's more than one opinion, there are going to be "losers" when the decision is made. The key to surviving is to accept the decision and move on, not make it out to be some grand injustice and then use it to somehow enhance the validity of your argument. > > That's your perogative, but it's hardly the mature stance to be taking. > > Read over your response. What did it have to do with my issues? What issues? You haven't raised anything concrete that hasn't already been addressed in this thread. > Nothing. It was a defensive reaction, resorting to name calling because > you had nothing logical to refute with. Do you call THIS mature? I'm attempting to explain to you how to survive in this situation. The lesson is free, but like most advice, if you abuse the giver, they're prone to walk away and leave you be. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:38:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611CC37B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14706; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:39:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: Warner Losh , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Um, we see these messages not only because our ISA PnP driver needs > some update, but also because we create ISA device instances TWICE for > each motherboard ISA devices, such as sio and atkbdc, due to > /boot/device.hints. > > We need to have /boot/device.hints for those systems without PnP BIOS. > On the system with the PnP BIOS, we shall have one ISA device instance > (say, sio0) created by the isahint driver based on hints described in > /boot/device.hints, and the pnpbios driver will create another > instance (sio%d) for the very same device, based on information from > the PnP BIOS. Then, we will see "unknown: can't assing > resources" when the second device instance is probed. This happens > even if the device driver understands PnP IDs. So, you are saying that this is because there is not a seperate "No BIOS" and "BIOS" section (or entry prefix) in the hints file, so that in a non-PnP system, both the "No BIOS" and "BIOS" entries will be examined, whereas on a PnP system, only the "BIOS" entries will be examined? It seems an obvious enhancement to me that there be seperate sections, where the "BIOS" section is shipped empty, and is only consulted to override broken PnP BIOS contents on PnP BIOS systems... PS: The "BIOS" section could be shipped non-empty, if it had a "per-rogue" setion or prefix... then known broken PnP BIOS systems would "just work". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:39:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864B537B405 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA69919 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B896A82.DAAB4110@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:30:42 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: KSE kernel comparissons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Comparative times for 'make buildworld' for unmodified and KSE (milestone-2) kernels unmodified -current 2138.464u 3358.378s 1:37:39.77 93.8% 842+1080k 45105+176988io 3208pf+0w modified KSE kernel 2143.716u 3363.311s 1:37:50.33 93.8% 841+1081k 45435+176988io 3214pf+0w I'm very glad to see that the overhead added was not too great. (well within the margin of error I'm sure) Same system, same source tree, just different kernel. /usr/obj was deleted before the previous reboot in both cases. Stdout not redirected, running via ssh from another machine. No soft-updates. ref4# size /k* (GENERIC config) text data bss dec hex filename 3180804 275436 350612 3806852 3a1684 /kernel.normal 3188036 275436 350836 3814308 3a33a4 /kernel.kse My guess is that the size increase in the text area is due to the extra code here and there to take the extra dereference from (p) to (td->td_proc) and the places where there is both a td variabel and a p variable. (with extra code to initialise them) Possibly an extra 1K for code to initialise the more complicated structures too. More actual code will be needed to get away from 1:1, so this is just a baseline. the next steps are for us a s a groupt to decide if this is really the way we want to go, and if so, whether we want to commit these changes to make them available for the world to work on as a base for real threading support. The alternative is to do linux-type threading with processes (peter wemm has been investigating a variant on this scheme). This is probably a no-turning-back commit. It's presently checked in on the FreeBSD p4 tree based on freefall, so it's safe, but we need to make a decision on where it goes next. -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:45: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EEC37B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QLo7r03391; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262150.f7QLo7r03391@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , Warner Losh , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:03:39 PDT." <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:50:07 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > >: unknown: can't assign resources > > > > > >Don't worry about these. > > > > Shouldn't we just suppress the message? It just confuses users. > > Shouldn't we just take the Linux/NetBSD information, and > actually identify the things instead of saying "Unknown", > instead, and leave them printing to encourage someone the > messages annoy to do the work? We don't need to "take" the information from anywhere; I've had most of the comprehensive databases for a while now. The problem with simply stuffing them into the kernel is that they're big, and I tend to agree with folk that we don't really want large single-use string tables in the kernel. This is why the PCI code that identifies unattached drivers reads the strings from a loadable file; once we can safely throw away loaded files, we can load the file at boot/install/whenever time and then throw it away once we're not interested anymore. However, the real reason that most of these strings are being printed is that the ISA probe order is bass-ackwards. The strings are printed because we have good PnP information that tells us a device is present, but we've already gone and believed the ISA hints and stuck a driver in that's claiming some or all of these resources. The messages should be silenced for 4.4, but the deeper problem needs to be addressed as well. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:47:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D62237B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QLqar03411; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262152.f7QLqar03411@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , Warner Losh , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:39:01 PDT." <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:52:36 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So, you are saying that this is because there is not a seperate > "No BIOS" and "BIOS" section (or entry prefix) in the hints file, > so that in a non-PnP system, both the "No BIOS" and "BIOS" > entries will be examined, whereas on a PnP system, only the "BIOS" > entries will be examined? This would be an unnecessary complication. > PS: The "BIOS" section could be shipped non-empty, if it had > a "per-rogue" setion or prefix... then known broken PnP BIOS > systems would "just work". The amount of work involved in making this "just work" would be pretty enormous, and most of the applicable systems are approaching "relic" status, making it hard to find them in order to debug. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 14:59:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3167037B407; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17158; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B897169.79A29D82@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:00:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Kargl Cc: Kaila , Mike Smith , Kris Kennaway , Jim Bryant , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... References: <200108261958.f7QJwLr02345@mass.dis.org> <20010826134326.A29583@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Kargl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 02:57:31PM -0500, Kaila wrote: > > Naming linking it to csh broke things for people who weren't > > informed it was happeneing, and then had to go and spend hours > > tracking down the problem and fixing it. > > How could you be uninformed about this change? The csh vs. tcsh > bikeshed happen 16 months ago in the freebsd-current mailing list. > Speaking up 16 months later is an unusual way to let the developers > know you have an opinion on this change. The bikeshed was not cross-posted to -stable or -hackers, and someone did an "MFC" on the change, thus bypassing any discussion about getting the change into -stable? Or the natural progression of version changes pushed the change event into the next release, with no real notification, and no "csh is deprecated; used tcsh instead" message for one major release (i.e. there was no formal deprecation during which people could change their csh scripts)? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15: 0:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A55E37B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:00:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21210; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8971BD.1E028F84@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:01:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826140236.A21698@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on > > any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to > > behave like them. > > This is an assertion. Where is your supporting evidence? Hit "TAB"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15: 4:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E584F37B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01140; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B897296.1BD49B61@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:05:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <3B89642B.80BCFFBF@mindspring.com> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108262111.f7QLB8W12947@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > : Shouldn't we just take the Linux/NetBSD information, and > : actually identify the things instead of saying "Unknown", > : instead, and leave them printing to encourage someone the > : messages annoy to do the work? > > I'd guess that's too much work. Maybe someone can prove me wrong with > trivial patches. I think that the correct fix is to deal with the device hints differentially in the "PnP BIOS present" case, per other posts. Would you accept patches against 4.4-RELEASE? I don't run -current these days, since I need my machines to boot reliably and do real work, other than FreeBSD hacking... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15: 7:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E3B37B40B for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:07:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QM7Iq63684; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QM7IW13551; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108262207.f7QM7IW13551@harmony.village.org> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:39:01 PDT." <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> References: <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:07:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> Terry Lambert writes: : So, you are saying that this is because there is not a seperate : "No BIOS" and "BIOS" section (or entry prefix) in the hints file, : so that in a non-PnP system, both the "No BIOS" and "BIOS" : entries will be examined, whereas on a PnP system, only the "BIOS" : entries will be examined? : : It seems an obvious enhancement to me that there be seperate : sections, where the "BIOS" section is shipped empty, and is only : consulted to override broken PnP BIOS contents on PnP BIOS : systems... : : PS: The "BIOS" section could be shipped non-empty, if it had : a "per-rogue" setion or prefix... then known broken PnP BIOS : systems would "just work". Since that's not how it works, the solution is a non-starter. We just need to carefully order the ISA code probing sections to get the desired effects. We haven't done that yet. All PnP devices are probed together at the end, which isn't quite right. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:14:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42EB37B405; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09677; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8974DC.57A9E085@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:14:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , Warner Losh , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <200108262152.f7QLqar03411@mass.dis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > So, you are saying that this is because there is not a seperate > > "No BIOS" and "BIOS" section (or entry prefix) in the hints file, > > so that in a non-PnP system, both the "No BIOS" and "BIOS" > > entries will be examined, whereas on a PnP system, only the "BIOS" > > entries will be examined? > > This would be an unnecessary complication. I think the reason the hints are not just ignored is to allow people to fix "rogue" hardware. I'm willing to be corrected, since this looks like about 12 lines of code would make it ignore device.hints in the "PnP BIOS present" case. > > PS: The "BIOS" section could be shipped non-empty, if it had > > a "per-rogue" setion or prefix... then known broken PnP BIOS > > systems would "just work". > > The amount of work involved in making this "just work" would be pretty > enormous, and most of the applicable systems are approaching "relic" > status, making it hard to find them in order to debug. I wasn't suggesting that the work be done up front! This would have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, by the people having the problems with the defaults sending in their identifying information and the fix that works for them. It would only accumulate the knowledge of the rogues over an extended period of time, on an as-needed basis. Regards, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:18: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF7737B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:18:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21147; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:18:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108262207.f7QM7IW13551@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > Since that's not how it works, the solution is a non-starter. > > We just need to carefully order the ISA code probing sections to get > the desired effects. We haven't done that yet. All PnP devices are > probed together at the end, which isn't quite right. The problem was presented as "we are getting two entries for the devices: one for the PnP BIOS, one for the device.hints". Whether it's perfect or not, making the device.hints "go away" in the presents of PnP BIOS on the machine would seem to be able to address the issue of doubled entries... right? Is there something I'm not seeing here from Kazutaka's posting, or am I being misled? Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:19:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C319137B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 22:19:12 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8975DF.2020603@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:19:11 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Wolfskill Cc: bandix@looksharp.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? References: <200108261245.f7QCjtm28227@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Wolfskill wrote: >>Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:43:56 -0400 (EDT) >>From: "Brandon D. Valentine" >> > >>On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: >> > >>>>Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) >>>> > >>>Too lazy? >>> > >>Heh. You just uncomment one line in /etc/ttys and HUP init. It's not >>compilicated. >> > > Indeed. However, there are some differences in startup of which to be > aware (.xinitrc vs. .xsession). > > Cheers, > david (who quit using xinit about a year ago....) > You are missing the point. This is the way I choose to run X for the moment.. I have a quite nice multi-wm .xsession already in place that I like and works well. Yes, it would take only a moment to enable xdm... The point is that I'm using startx for now. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:22: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F56D37B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QMM3q63743; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:22:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QMM3W13698; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:22:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108262222.f7QMM3W13698@harmony.village.org> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:18:37 PDT." <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> References: <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108262207.f7QM7IW13551@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:22:02 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > Since that's not how it works, the solution is a non-starter. : > : > We just need to carefully order the ISA code probing sections to get : > the desired effects. We haven't done that yet. All PnP devices are : > probed together at the end, which isn't quite right. : : The problem was presented as "we are getting two entries for : the devices: one for the PnP BIOS, one for the device.hints". That's a useful high level abstraction of what's happening. However, it isn't completely accurate either. : Whether it's perfect or not, making the device.hints "go away" : in the presents of PnP BIOS on the machine would seem to be : able to address the issue of doubled entries... right? Not entirely. There are ISA devices in devices.hints that aren't plug and play and aren't in the PnP BIOS list. That's a worse problem than the minor printf :-). : Is there something I'm not seeing here from Kazutaka's posting, : or am I being misled? Yes. Yes. :-) What we'd like to happen: PnP BIOS devices device.hints PnP ISA devices What we do now device.hints PnP BIOS devices PnP ISA devices Note, I tried making the simple changes to make this work, but it failed in subtle ways that I didn't have time to trackdown... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:23:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E021C37B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 22:23:21 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8976D9.3070107@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:23:21 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: David Wolfskill , bandix@looksharp.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: exec issue in tcsh? References: <20010826024257.I65587-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <200108261245.f7QCjtm28227@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <15241.8227.759263.259051@nomad.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams wrote: >>>>>Wow. Why not use xdm? 8) >>>>> >>>>Too lazy? >>>> >>>Heh. You just uncomment one line in /etc/ttys and HUP init. It's not >>>compilicated. >>> >>Indeed. However, there are some differences in startup of which to be >>aware (.xinitrc vs. .xsession). >> > > I just hard-link the two files together. :) > > > Nate > > That only works in a single wm arena... What about: case $WMCHOICE in twm) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& twm ;; fvwm95) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& fvwm95 ;; olwm) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& olwm ;; olvwm) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& olvwm ;; wmaker) xscreensaver -timeout 10 -lock-mode -no-splash& wmaker ;; motif) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& mwm ;; gnome) xterm -bg black -fg cyan -sb -sl 5000 -geometry 132x60& gnome-session ;; kde2) startkde ;; esac jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:25: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E96237B409; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:25:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QMUII00800; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262230.f7QMUII00800@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Mike Smith , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Warner Losh , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:14:52 PDT." <3B8974DC.57A9E085@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:30:18 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think the reason the hints are not just ignored is to allow > people to fix "rogue" hardware. I'm willing to be corrected, Good. It's like it is right now because the PnP stuff was bolted on as an afterthought. > since this looks like about 12 lines of code would make it > ignore device.hints in the "PnP BIOS present" case. We don't want to ignore the hints either; we just want them to take lower precedence than the PnP BIOS data. Hints can be perfectly valid and relevant in either the "broken BIOS" or "non-PnP device" cases. Basically, the problem we have is that we don't have the developer bandwidth to catch up with what has to be done, let alone fix the bandaids that were applied years ago. This results in suboptimal situations like this, something that's only going to be exacerbated as fully funded developer time for FreeBSD-mainline work doesn't seem to be increasing. 8( -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:31:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438E737B40B for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 676E866DE9; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:31:22 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Message-ID: <20010826153121.A32124@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826140236.A21698@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B8971BD.1E028F84@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8971BD.1E028F84@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 03:01:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 03:01:33PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on > > > any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to > > > behave like them. > >=20 > > This is an assertion. Where is your supporting evidence? >=20 > Hit "TAB"? Controllable behaviour. Next? Kris P.S. It's already been established (and quite blindingly obvious) that tcsh has different defaults than csh, that's not the issue here. --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7iXi5Wry0BWjoQKURAhNSAJ411E0a4KY7HR7MC2DmN2lbzD9LKgCeN1ZY gBJzu0PARlud/CSjZhqYnHA= =zfl7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:35:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (hunkular.glarp.com [199.117.25.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840E037B40E; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hunkular.glarp.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QMZOc93717; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:35:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Message-Id: <200108262235.f7QMZOc93717@hunkular.glarp.com> To: Mike Smith Cc: Brad Huntting , Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:31:30 PDT." <200108261731.f7QHVUr00901@mass.dis.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:35:24 -0600 From: Brad Huntting Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Then go look them up. I'm not about to stuff the entire PnP device > database into the kernel just to satisfy your curiosity. 8( I was going to ask where, but I see they are in /usr/src/sys/boot/common/pnpdata. thanx, brad To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:39: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E036237B409 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29660; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B897AA9.44FD61CF@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:39:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826140236.A21698@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B8971BD.1E028F84@mindspring.com> <20010826153121.A32124@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 03:01:33PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > > "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on > > > > any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to > > > > behave like them. > > > > > > This is an assertion. Where is your supporting evidence? > > > > Hit "TAB"? > > Controllable behaviour. Next? Hit a single "ESC"? PS: "I've got a million of 'em... er, 256 of 'em..." 8-) 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:44: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 165DF37B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:44:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 22:44:01 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B897BB0.5070109@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:44:00 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... References: <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826154728.A19673@nagual.pp.ru> <3B8966C8.46BD4F84@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > I was still grumpy about the change, but that at least was > enough to mollify me into not objecting loudly and persitantly > up to the import. > > Let me get this straight, though: _now_ you are saying that > the system wide defaults and account template defaults will > be whatever the tcsh maintainers say they are, and that any > changes that the tcsh maintainers make with instantly and > magically be imported into FreeBSD? > > I think there are a few logic flaws in your plan to have > people submit their gripes about the defaults to the tcsh > maintainers: > > 1) They set their defaults the way they like them, and > are unlikely to change. > 2) A lot of the people who shut up did so on the premise > that the defaults would cause tcsh to behave like csh > when invoked with that name, and that it was the tcsh > users, NOT the csh users, who would have to change > away from the system defaults to get their desired > behaviour. > 3) FreeBSD does not seem to track tcsh changes quickly > or religiously enough for a lobbying effort to really > be effective. > > While we may be stuck with this bait-and-switch "upgrade", I > think his complaints are not co easily addressed. Certainly, > the "exec" complaint remains valid, in any case: it's a bug > that csh didn't have. Terry, first things first, or is it last things first... I had issued myself a boot to the head because I had simply forgotten to background the startx and issue a logout [been so long since i've done things this way, blah blah blah, boot to the head], This was the second message in this thread, and I asked people to disregard my initial post because of this, shortly after sending the initial message. Since then, this has taken a life of it's own. After reading the ensuing posts, I do have to say that although I don't agree with a lot of the posts against adding more defacto-standard shells to the base distribution [remember the thread about a month ago], I at least now understand one of the base arguments behind the arguments against. I'm not trying to revive that topic, I'm just saying I see what was behind some of the arguments in that thread now. Anyhow, I have other things on my mind right now, such as why installworld is expecting a user named 'bind'... jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:48:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F244A37B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7QMmF5157504; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:48:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7QMmEc276964; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:48:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:vnxiBa+JIu0q0tdIrAD3W4bJsZx2dBH+@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id HAA16750; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:57:57 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108262257.HAA16750@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Warner Losh Cc: current@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:22:02 CST." <200108262222.f7QMM3W13698@harmony.village.org> References: <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108262207.f7QM7IW13551@harmony.village.org> <200108262222.f7QMM3W13698@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:57:56 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >: Whether it's perfect or not, making the device.hints "go away" >: in the presents of PnP BIOS on the machine would seem to be >: able to address the issue of doubled entries... right? > >Not entirely. There are ISA devices in devices.hints that aren't plug >and play and aren't in the PnP BIOS list. That's a worse problem than >the minor printf :-). > >: Is there something I'm not seeing here from Kazutaka's posting, >: or am I being misled? > >Yes. Yes. :-) > >What we'd like to happen: > > PnP BIOS devices > device.hints > PnP ISA devices > >What we do now > > device.hints > PnP BIOS devices > PnP ISA devices > >Note, I tried making the simple changes to make this work, but it >failed in subtle ways that I didn't have time to trackdown... > >Warner I once wrote the following patch to deal with this problem by probing ISA devices in the following order. 1. sensitive ISA devices described in device.hints 2. PnP BIOS ISA devices 3. other ISA devices described in device.hints 4. PnP ISA devices I am not entirely happy with the patch, though. Kazu begin 666 isapnp.diff.gz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ailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brad Huntting Cc: Mike Smith , Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:35:24 MDT." <200108262235.f7QMZOc93717@hunkular.glarp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:58:33 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Then go look them up. I'm not about to stuff the entire PnP device > > database into the kernel just to satisfy your curiosity. 8( > > I was going to ask where, but I see they are in > /usr/src/sys/boot/common/pnpdata. That's a useful subset that I keep forgetting about; thanks for reminding me. Google is also remarkably good at finding these things (it's how I've found most of the databases I have). -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 15:54:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3C637B40C for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.135.64.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.135.64]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28912; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B897E31.A2DF5B3D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:54:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware References: <3B8975BD.6A9846F2@mindspring.com> <3B896C75.6DCFE2E8@mindspring.com> <200108261112.UAA14768@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010823172813.A69940@leviathan.inethouston.net> <200108251636.f7PGabW05246@harmony.village.org> <200108261551.f7QFpvW11269@harmony.village.org> <200108261719.CAA15944@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108262207.f7QM7IW13551@harmony.village.org> <200108262222.f7QMM3W13698@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > : Whether it's perfect or not, making the device.hints "go away" > : in the presents of PnP BIOS on the machine would seem to be > : able to address the issue of doubled entries... right? > > Not entirely. There are ISA devices in devices.hints that aren't plug > and play and aren't in the PnP BIOS list. That's a worse problem than > the minor printf :-). Ouch. [ ... ] > What we'd like to happen: > > PnP BIOS devices > device.hints > PnP ISA devices > > What we do now > > device.hints > PnP BIOS devices > PnP ISA devices Let me ask one more question... you want this reordering to ensure that you can handle the PnP BIOS cases where some legacy device *is* known to the PnP BIOS, vs. where the legacy device is _NOT_ known to the PnP BIOS, so that the device.hints can find it if it's there, before we fall into the PnP ISA ["Plug-N-Play OS"] game, right? I remember an ACER system with a bus mouse on the motherboard which was unknown to the PnP BIOS, and Windows 95 trying to be a "PnP OS" used to always do what above looks to be the "PnP ISA devices" phase of things, and gave IRQ 12 to the second IDE disk interface, instead of the on-board mouse... which would exactly fit this bill. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16: 5:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A2137B40A for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QNAOI01455; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262310.f7QNAOI01455@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: Warner Losh , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:57:56 +0900." <200108262257.HAA16750@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:10:24 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I once wrote the following patch to deal with this problem by > probing ISA devices in the following order. > > 1. sensitive ISA devices described in device.hints > 2. PnP BIOS ISA devices > 3. other ISA devices described in device.hints > 4. PnP ISA devices This order is still slightly wrong. You need to do: 0. Disable ALL PnP devices which can be disabled. 1. PnP devices (of any kind) which cannot be disabled, or which only have a single configuration. These devices which cannot be disabled need a placeholder attached to them if a driver doesn't claim them, or some other mechanism so that their resources are never used. 2. Sensitive hinted ISA devices. 3. Other ISA devices. 4. Other PnP devices. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16: 6:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA2637B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QNBxI01511; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108262311.f7QNBxI01511@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:54:41 PDT." <3B897E31.A2DF5B3D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:11:59 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I remember an ACER system with a bus mouse on the motherboard > which was unknown to the PnP BIOS, and Windows 95 trying to > be a "PnP OS" used to always do what above looks to be the > "PnP ISA devices" phase of things, and gave IRQ 12 to the > second IDE disk interface, instead of the on-board mouse... > which would exactly fit this bill. See my immediately preceeding message for how this has to be worked around. It's doable. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16:10:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5633F37B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:10:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 23:10:54 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8981FD.1030706@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:10:53 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: user/group "bind" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After being informed of the paragraph in UPDATING on this topic, I went to /usr/src/etc to see what the settled-upon UID/GID of "bind" is... Ummm... Did someone forget to commit changes to the /usr/src/etc/group and /usr/src/etc/passwd baseline files? What UID/GID should be used? jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16:11:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9001E37B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7QNBdq63932; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:11:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7QNBdW14163; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:11:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108262311.f7QNBdW14163@harmony.village.org> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Cc: Terry Lambert , Oliver Fromme , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:21:25 +0400." <20010827012122.A25340@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010827012122.A25340@nagual.pp.ru> <20010826015413.C92548@dragon.nuxi.com> <200108261120.NAA07025@lurza.secnetix.de> <20010826154728.A19673@nagual.pp.ru> <3B8966C8.46BD4F84@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:11:39 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010827012122.A25340@nagual.pp.ru> "Andrey A. Chernov" writes: : Complaints _are_ easily addressed, tcsh author is responsible and fix all : thing that I report to him. If you complain about 'upgrade' problem, i.e. : we don't have latest tcsh, ask our tcsh maintainer for upgrade. I'm our tcsh maintainer, btw. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16:15:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A83237B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A5F7B66DE9; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:15:20 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jim Bryant Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: user/group "bind" Message-ID: <20010826161520.A32606@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3B8981FD.1030706@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8981FD.1030706@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 06:10:53PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 06:10:53PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > After being informed of the paragraph in UPDATING on this topic, I > went to /usr/src/etc to see what the settled-upon UID/GID of "bind" > is... Ummm... Did someone forget to commit changes to the > /usr/src/etc/group and /usr/src/etc/passwd baseline files? No, that user and group have been there for 2 1/2 years. Kris --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7iYMHWry0BWjoQKURAt5QAJ9B3ugZgUp8FccivhnLU2zBivW/ngCePSv6 1BoTd+nXUxevtnsMT2qDiT8= =WATa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 16:16:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DA9E37B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 23:16:37 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B898354.5030702@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:16:36 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: user/group "bind" References: <3B8981FD.1030706@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, please don't say it... I'm blind... Boot to the head! I see it now, as GID 53... Jim Bryant wrote: > After being informed of the paragraph in UPDATING on this topic, I went > to /usr/src/etc to see what the settled-upon UID/GID of "bind" is... > > Ummm... Did someone forget to commit changes to the /usr/src/etc/group > and /usr/src/etc/passwd baseline files? > > What UID/GID should be used? > > jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 21:26:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from star1.baremetal.com (star1.baremetal.com [216.86.113.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58BBE37B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spawndevices@star1.baremetal.com) Received: (from spawndevices@localhost) by star1.baremetal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA15511; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:33:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:33:46 -0700 Message-Id: <200108270433.VAA15511@star1.baremetal.com> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: This Weekends Sale... All Combo Pkg\\\'s $79.99 From: "Spawn Devices" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well it seems the www.spawndevices.com $15 - $25 buck boots and emu\'s made a few of you happy.... good... glad to hear it... Well the special for you this weekend is all Combo Packages are $79.99... Your choice an Emu or a Bootstrap (DPBB) with either a Dual Crystal ISO or a WT2-X unlooper... your call. Hope you all Have a Great Weekend... and thanks for the great response on the product lines. {:-) PLEASE REMEMBER TO LOG ON to www.spawndevices.com and enter to win anyone of our great products...FREE WEEKLY DRAWS... www.spawndevices.com ********************************************************* To be removed from our mailing list please click on this link and follow the directions on the webpage; http://www.spawndevices.com/remove.phtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 22:32: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from web11008.mail.yahoo.com (web11008.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3729237B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andyelf@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010827053159.7853.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.76.104.136] by web11008.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:31:59 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrei Popov Subject: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Having overcome a small issue with buildworld in games/fortune/strfile, there's a new +issue: buildworld fails in /usr/src/secure/lib/libssl make's output is a bit lengthy at this point, so I've slightly clipped it: ===> libssl ( echo "#ifndef MK1MF_BUILD"; echo " /* auto-generated by crypto/Makefile.ssl for +crypto/cversion.c */"; echo " #define CFLAGS \"cc\""; echo " #define PLATFORM +\"`uname -s`-`uname -m`\""; echo " #define DATE \"`LC_ALL=C date`\""; echo "#endif" +) > buildinf.h cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -DTERMIOS -DANSI_SOURCE +-I/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl/../../../crypto/openssl/crypto +-I/usr/obj/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl -DNO_IDEA -DL_ENDIAN -DSHA1_ASM -DBN_ASM -DMD5_ASM +-DRMD160_ASM -DNO_IDEA -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include -c +/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl/../../../crypto/openssl/crypto/../ssl/t1_srvr.c -o t1_srvr.o rm -f .depend mkdep -f .depend -a -nostdinc -DTERMIOS -DANSI_SOURCE +-I/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl/../../../crypto/openssl/crypto +-I/usr/obj/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl -DNO_IDEA -DL_ENDIAN -DSHA1_ASM -DBN_ASM -DMD5_ASM +-DRMD160_ASM -DNO_IDEA -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include +/usr/src/secure/lib/libssl/../../../crypto/openssl/crypto/../ssl/bio_ssl.c /us **** clipping starts for the remainder of mkdep line **** cd /usr/src/secure/lib/libssl; make _EXTRADEPEND ===> libssh make: don't know how to make dsa.c. Stop *** Error code 2 Stop in /usr/src/secure/lib. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. If run directly in /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/ the picture is a bit more verbose, albeit result is the same: # make cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/authfd.c -o authfd.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/authfile.c -o authfile.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/bufaux.c -o bufaux.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/buffer.c -o buffer.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/canohost.c -o canohost.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/channels.c -o channels.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/cipher.c -o cipher.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/compat.c -o compat.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/compress.c -o compress.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/crc32.c -o crc32.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/deattack.c -o deattack.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/hostfile.c -o hostfile.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/log.c -o log.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/match.c -o match.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/mpaux.c -o mpaux.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/nchan.c -o nchan.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/packet.c -o packet.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/readpass.c -o readpass.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/rsa.c -o rsa.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/tildexpand.c -o tildexpand.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/ttymodes.c -o ttymodes.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/uidswap.c -o uidswap.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/xmalloc.c -o xmalloc.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/atomicio.c -o atomicio.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/key.c -o key.o cc -O -pipe -DSKEY -DNO_IDEA -c /usr/src/secure/lib/libssh/../../../crypto/openssh/dispatch.c -o dispatch.o make: don't know how to make dsa.c. Stop -- Andrei __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 22:59: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65A237B40B for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA71657 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:47:48 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support to the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, then this is the time to speak up! At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be welcome. -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 26 22:59: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E3537B403 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA71654 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:44:04 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can the IA64 and Alpha developers (Arm too?) look at the KSE patch set at http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/thediff This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. it needs people who understand the other architectures to make the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) so that when this is checked into -current their architectures are not broken. (On teh other hand if they would rather fix up the breakage afterwards (which may be easier) then they should let me know so I can get on with committing it. Matt and I want to commit it ASAP, so we can get on with actual threading support. Peter has also indicated that he thinks that it should be done soon, so I need toknow if there will be forthcoming changes for the other architectures, or I should go ahead and commit... -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 0:27:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FA337B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:27:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05222; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:27:41 +1000 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:27:32 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: To: Julian Elischer Cc: Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: <3B896A82.DAAB4110@elischer.org> Message-ID: <20010827170927.V23439-100000@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Julian Elischer wrote: > Comparative times for 'make buildworld' > for unmodified and KSE (milestone-2) kernels > > unmodified -current > 2138.464u 3358.378s 1:37:39.77 93.8% 842+1080k 45105+176988io 3208pf+0w > modified KSE kernel > 2143.716u 3363.311s 1:37:50.33 93.8% 841+1081k 45435+176988io 3214pf+0w > > I'm very glad to see that the overhead added was not too great. > (well within the margin of error I'm sure) Since it is non-negative, why would anyone want it? However, the benchmark seems to be flawed. Buildworld's system time should be only about 20% of its user time. To pessimize it by a factor of 7.5, you need to turn on lots of debugging options (which are on by default in -current). > More actual code will be needed to get away from 1:1, so this is just a > baseline. > > the next steps are for us a s a groupt to decide if this is really the way we > want to go, > and if so, whether we want to commit these changes to make them available for > the world > to work on as a base for real threading support. The alternative is to > do linux-type threading with processes (peter wemm has been investigating a > variant > on this scheme). This is probably a no-turning-back commit. How much faster (or slower) will it be for threaded programs (for various numbers of CPUs)? I don't see how it can be faster for a single CPU (interrupt threads in the kernel show that using threads tends to pessimize both efficiency and latency for a single CPU). Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 1: 0:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278437B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7R864u00988; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108270806.f7R864u00988@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:47:48 PDT." <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:06:04 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading > support to the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this > move, then this is the time to speak up! > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > welcome. I would ask that we get some indication from the IA64/Alpha/etc folks about this *before* you commit, even if they're not ready with patches yet, it would be wise to know how long before they would be. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 1: 8:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (fw-rl0.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DC837B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos@freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f7R88Sa44011; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:08:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sos) From: Søren Schmidt Message-Id: <200108270808.f7R88Sa44011@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> "from Julian Elischer at Aug 26, 2001 10:47:48 pm" To: Julian Elischer Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:08:28 +0200 (CEST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: sos@freebsd.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL88 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Julian Elischer wrote: > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support > to > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > then this is the time to speak up! > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > welcome. Could we have an URL to these changes, so we could see what its all about, I dont like to comment on code before I've seen it.... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 2:12:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE36637B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 64D0F66DE9; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:12:46 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Andrei Popov Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT Message-ID: <20010827021246.A37044@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010827053159.7853.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010827053159.7853.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>; from andyelf@yahoo.com on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:31:59PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:31:59PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: > ===> libssh > make: don't know how to make dsa.c. Stop > *** Error code 2 Something is wrong with your source..perhaps you didn't update it completely. Kris --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7ig8NWry0BWjoQKURAgiXAKDne0ywUZRCrQYHa3fJkkctroGv7wCfXqkP Gn+v9Y/g7w08UIVXRWTpOgU= =TKpX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 3: 2:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B79B37B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 10:02:48 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8A1AC7.2080806@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:02:47 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: UFS issue in -current? Plus good news for tape users... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD wahoo.kc.rr.com 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #26: Sat Aug 25 02:25:41 CDT 2001 jbryant@wahoo.kc.rr.com:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/WAHOO i386 1). I shut down properly [shutdown -r now] about an hour ago to boot into winblowz [yeah, but it's the only thing morpheus works in]... 2). When I came up I had a message saying that I had to run fsck manualy... okay... 3). I found that /var [ad0s1f] had a mismatch between the superblock and the first alternate, and it also complained about an invalid label... As far as I know the shutdown went proper... Anyone else seeing this? /var is softupdates flagged... The good news is that Justin's scsi_sa.c patches DO WORK! Once I figured there was nothing that fsck could do for me, I did a newfs /dev/ad0s1f, then mounted it and did a restore of /var from tape. Outside of losing a day's worth of logs, I'm fine now, but the question is: why did it happen? jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 4:16:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC2E37B409; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24572; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:16:16 +1000 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:16:07 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Subject: Re: perl5 build is poo In-Reply-To: <20010823154405.A17733@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <20010827210127.D37912-100000@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > On a -current Alpha box I cannot: > > cd /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl > make cleandir && make cleandir > make obj > make depend > ... > ===> perl > Extracting config.h (with variable substitutions) > Extracting cflags (with variable substitutions) > Extracting writemain (with variable substitutions) > Extracting myconfig (with variable substitutions) > miniperl:No such file or directory > *** Error code 1 > > Why isn't miniperl in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/Makefile ? It's because people didn't want to face the cross-compilation issues. I don't know of any reason why miniperl can't be built as a build-tool, but haven't tested this. I work around this bug by building miniperl manually and copying it to /usr/bin Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 7: 9:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D55B37B417; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.gmd.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26179; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:09:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:09:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: , Subject: -current broken in pcic_pci.c Message-ID: <20010827160634.R17281-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Version 1.83 of that file breaks the GENERIC build. You probably meant to write: Index: pcic_pci.c =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/ncvs/src/sys/pccard/pcic_pci.c,v retrieving revision 1.83 diff -r1.83 pcic_pci.c 262c262 < if (sc->csc_intr == pcic_iw_pci || sc->func_intr == pcic_iw_pci) --- > if (sc->csc_route == pcic_iw_pci || sc->func_route == pcic_iw_pci) harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 7:26:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from EnContacto.Net (adsl-63-205-16-205.dsl.mtry01.pacbell.net [63.205.16.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB4637B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:26:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) Received: (from root@localhost) by EnContacto.Net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f7REQFq40286 for Current@FreeBSD.Org; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:26:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) Received: from 63.205.16.204 ( [63.205.16.204]) as user eculp@EnContacto.Net by Mail.SavvyWorld.Net with HTTP; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:26:15 -0700 Message-ID: <998922375.3b8a5887179ed@Mail.SavvyWorld.Net> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:26:15 -0700 From: Edwin Culp To: Current@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Today's current has problems authenticating imap. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 63.205.16.204 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After a successful make world and kernel this morning, I am having a problem with ld-elf.so.1/pam/imap. Everytime someone tries to login to imap the following error is generated. Aug 27 09:20:17 aNeed2Learn /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Aug 27 09:20:17 aNeed2Learn /usr/lib/pam_nologin.so: Undefined symbol "login_getclass" Any ideas for a quick fix? Would the old ld-elf.so.1 work with the changes that have caused this? Thanks, ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn. --Alvin Toffler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 7:31:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.sentex.ca (smtp1.sentex.ca [199.212.134.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EA237B403; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from simoeon.sentex.net (pyroxene.sentex.ca [199.212.134.18]) by smtp1.sentex.ca (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7REVkJ95782; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:31:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010827102227.0574d240@marble.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@marble.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:25:52 -0400 To: Jonathan Lemon , current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010826134043.0412ae78@192.168.0.12> References: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Its looking great so far! In the two production machines I put it in last night, zero time outs as expected!! These are both EM machines. On my two internal ET machines, also zero problems. The machines are in 10BaseT/UTP, and 10BaseT full duplex. inphy0: on miibus1 inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto and fxp0: port 0xdf00-0xdf3f mem 0xff6ff000-0xff6fffff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:03:47:6f:f7:e0 inphy0: on miibus0 inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto Thank you *VERY* much for fixing this problem. ---Mike At 01:43 PM 8/26/01 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote: >I have it on two machines with this chipset and it looks good so >far. After installing, dmesg shows > >fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem >0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 >fxp0: *** DISABLING DYNAMIC STANDBY MODE IN EEPROM *** >fxp0: New EEPROM ID: 0x49a0 >fxp0: EEPROM checksum @ 0xff: 0xe441 -> 0xe443 >fxp0: *** PLEASE REBOOT THE SYSTEM NOW FOR CORRECT OPERATION *** >fxp0: Ethernet address 00:01:80:02:d0:34 >inphy0: on miibus1 >inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > >and then one more reboot shows > >fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem >0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 >fxp0: Ethernet address 00:01:80:02:d0:34 >inphy0: on miibus1 >inphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > ---Mike > > > >At 10:11 AM 8/26/2001 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >> I believe that I have a real fix for the SCB timeout problems >>that have been plauging users of recent Intel fxp boards. >> >> If you have a board that uses the Intel ICH2/ICH2-M chipset >>(usually 815E style boards) and feel comfortable applying >>patches to the system, please contact me to test a fix. >> >> The patch works on two different boards here, but I would like >>to get some wider testing before I commit it to the tree. >>-- >>Jonathan >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 >Network Administration, mike@sentex.net >Sentex Communications www.sentex.net >Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 8:18:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522F937B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RFIWq66518; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:18:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7RFIVW18814; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:18:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108271518.f7RFIVW18814@harmony.village.org> To: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: -current broken in pcic_pci.c Cc: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:09:02 +0200." <20010827160634.R17281-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> References: <20010827160634.R17281-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:18:31 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010827160634.R17281-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> Harti Brandt writes: : Version 1.83 of that file breaks the GENERIC build. You probably meant to : write: Just fixed. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 9:26:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE60737B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11268; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010826140236.A21698@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing... Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Oliver Fromme Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Aug-01 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >> "Our" csh still behaves differently like any /bin/csh on >> any other system that I know, and can't be easily made to >> behave like them. > > This is an assertion. Where is your supporting evidence? In his previous message that you didn't read. Geez, I'm a tcsh user myself but his point is not all that obscure. He mentioned wanting Esc to do instant filename completion. (Or history, can't remember which). Another one he referred to is clearly documented in the tcsh manpage that no one seems to read: (+) While csh(1) expands, for example, `!3d' to event 3 with the letter `d' appended to it, tcsh expands it to the last event beginning with `3d'; only completely numeric arguments are treated as event numbers. This makes it possible to recall events beginning with numbers. To expand `!3d' as in csh(1) say `!\3d'. IOW, to obtain backward compatibility, you have to change your input. That's not really all that backward compatible since the original interface is broken. I agree with Andrey that getting the tcsh maintainers to provide backwards compatibility via a command-line option (or have it triggered when it is called as csh rather than tcsh) would be the ideal solution. > Kris -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 9:34:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19D237B40B for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18757; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Julian Elischer Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading > support > to > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > then this is the time to speak up! > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > welcome. Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even helped out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch and having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 9:38:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6DE37B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA74044; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8A7470.4FF32874@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:25:20 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <200108270806.f7R864u00988@mass.dis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > > I would ask that we get some indication from the IA64/Alpha/etc folks > about this *before* you commit, even if they're not ready with patches > yet, it would be wise to know how long before they would be. see the other email discussing exactly this.... -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 9:57:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A51537B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id MAA23939; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:56:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: John Baldwin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: > > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading > > support > > to > > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > > then this is the time to speak up! > > > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > > welcome. > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I > know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It > doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even helped > out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll > point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, > much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch and > having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. I think waiting for 6.0-current is too long. Perhaps after 5.0-release. If we get this in 5.0, we might be able to have a usable kse threads library for 5.1 or 5.2. I've used p4 to track the CAM changes before they were in -current. It was initially easy when only the kernel was involved, but once userland was was touched I ended up having to use p4 to track everything else. At the time I didn't have enough disk space to have both a CVS src/ tree and a p4 tree. Plus it's difficult when you have more than one development system because you can't just keep one CVS repo and update all your systems from that. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10: 7:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pozo.com (pozo.com [216.101.162.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165A437B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from null@pozo.com) Received: from dual.pozo.com (dual.pozo.com [216.101.162.51]) by pozo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7RH75x08138 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from null@pozo.com) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010827100450.033618e0@pozo.com> X-Sender: null@pozo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:07:10 -0700 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Manfred Antar Subject: md.c broken in current Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From sources this morning when trying to build a kernel: (pro2)502}make cc -c -O -pipe -march=pentiumpro -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -ansi -g -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../../.. -I../../../dev -I../../../contrib/dev/acpica -I../../../contrib/ipfilter -I../../../../include -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 ../../../dev/md/md.c ../../../dev/md/md.c: In function `mddetach': ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: `MD_PRELOAD_COMPRESSED' undeclared (first use in this function) ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: for each function it appears in.) *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/pro2. (pro2)503} Manfred ================================== || null@pozo.com || || Ph. (415) 681-6235 || ================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:18:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FDD37B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:18:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA74259; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:03:34 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: > > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading > > support > > to > > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > > then this is the time to speak up! > > > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > > welcome. > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I > know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It > doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even helped > out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll > point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, > much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch and > having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. > > well I expected this to some extent.. This is why I asked.. I want to get it out where it can be discussed. the same could also be said for full pre-emption and SMP-NG. It is also interestingto note that KSE isn't the only game in town. The new PTNG package looks interesting, using normal process rforking to generate a pthreads environment. (It's a rewrite, not a port of linux threads). All I have done is brought the kernel to a state where it is READY for work to break the 1:1 barrier. It is basically logically exactly the same kernel as in -current. I think it introduces far fewer logical changes than, say, the pre-emption code, or the locking code. I agree that we could wait. I don't however think we should. I'd rather have ONE broken period than two. At USENIX we agreed that if I got this done it would be committed and work could start to provide the facilities that Dan and Chris need for the Userland code to develop. Remember, that unless you turn this on, it's a very complicated NOP. What P4 does is really irrelevent because there are only 4 people using it.. (or is that 3?). It needs a distribution channel, and P4 isn't it. (at least not at the moment.) What it DOES do however is make your locking code more challenging. But that is going to have to be faced at some time.... -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:23: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666EF37B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7RHMtN21079; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:22:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:22:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200108271722.f7RHMtN21079@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: John Baldwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and > 6.0-release. I agree. I'd like to see this stuff happen, but I think it's too disruptive a change while we still haven't yet gotten over many of the SMPng issues yet. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:39:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E0037B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02131; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Daniel Eischen Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, John Baldwin wrote: >> On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: >> > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading >> > support >> > to >> > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >> > then this is the time to speak up! >> > >> > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until >> > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific >> > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be >> > welcome. >> >> Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes >> in >> it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I >> know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It >> doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even >> helped >> out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll >> point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, >> much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch >> and >> having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. > > I think waiting for 6.0-current is too long. Perhaps after 5.0-release. > If we get this in 5.0, we might be able to have a usable kse threads > library for 5.1 or 5.2. I'm predicting a short release cycle between 5.0 and 6.0 (compared to 4.0 and 5.0) because 6.0 is probably going to be much more stable than 5.x. > I've used p4 to track the CAM changes before they were in -current. It > was initially easy when only the kernel was involved, but once userland > was was touched I ended up having to use p4 to track everything else. > At the time I didn't have enough disk space to have both a CVS src/ > tree and a p4 tree. Plus it's difficult when you have more than one > development system because you can't just keep one CVS repo and update > all your systems from that. NFS works for that (it's what I do with all my development systems, one shared kernel souce tree over NFS with various p4 kernel sys trees checked out). However, I agree adding userland into the mix will complicate things. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:39:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8DF37B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02164; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:23 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: >> > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading >> > support >> > to >> > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >> > then this is the time to speak up! >> > >> > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until >> > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific >> > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be >> > welcome. >> >> Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes >> in >> it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I >> know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It >> doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even >> helped >> out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll >> point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, >> much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch >> and >> having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. >> >> > > well I expected this to some extent.. > This is why I asked.. I want to get it out where it can be discussed. > the same could also be said for full pre-emption and SMP-NG. Note that I haven't committed preemption (largely because it doesn't work on SMP and alpha yet. :-P). However, SMPng is one large change for 5.x. Not sure how many large changes we want to do at a time. > All I have done is brought the kernel to a state where > it is READY for work to break the 1:1 barrier. It is basically > logically exactly the same kernel as in -current. I think it introduces > far fewer logical changes than, say, the pre-emption code, > or the locking code. I agree that we could wait. I don't however think we > should. I'd rather have ONE broken period than two. At USENIX we agreed that > if I got this done it would be committed and work could start to > provide the facilities that Dan and Chris need for the Userland > code to develop. Remember, that unless you turn this on, it's > a very complicated NOP. The problem becomes that if something breaks, where do you go to look for the bug? Is it a SMPng bug? Or a KSE bug? Getting SMPng to a state where a good portion (say, at least 2 major subsystems) are out from under Giant will be the first good stress testing of the concurrency and good stress testing of SMPng. It could potentially get pretty bumpy when that happens, and having KSE add to that bumpiness may make things very complicated. I wasn't in favor of KSE's in 5.0 at Usenix, but saw that I was in an obvious minority. I'm still in the minority and realize that and don't expect my opinions here to make any difference. I just wanted to voice my concerns. > What it DOES do however is make your locking code more challenging. > But that is going to have to be faced at some time.... Yes, but I'd rather face it after we've made more progress on SMPng first. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:41: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FF437B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7RHegT66546; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:40:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:47:48 PDT." <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:40:42 +0200 Message-ID: <66544.998934042@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: >I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support >to >the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >then this is the time to speak up! I say "No, not yet". Not yet, because in practice nobody has been running your patches yet. Not yet, because we have seen no quantified performance impact numbers (yes, I'm trying to arrange to help you produce these but on a P5/133 things are _S_L_O_W_! Not yet, because I seriously doubt if anybody has had any time to review and reflect on the way you have gone around and done things. Not yet, because there are, as I understand it, unresolved issues with KAME. Not yet, because you are generalizing from only one platform, get at least alpha working first. So I propose: Put up your patches in a highly visible place and advertise them on -current, -arch and -smp. Once at least 5 developers have publically said "I'm running these patches on my -current machine(s) and it doesn't totally hose me" and at least 3 of those machines are SMP and one is non-i386 architecture, then call for "last orders before commit". -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 10:50:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ipcard.iptcom.net (ipcard.iptcom.net [212.9.224.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EF337B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from max@vega.com) Received: from vega.vega.com (root@dialup15-21.iptelecom.net.ua [212.9.229.149]) by ipcard.iptcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07880; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:49:48 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from max@vega.com) Received: (from max@localhost) by vega.vega.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7RHnlv50143; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:49:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) From: Maxim Sobolev Message-Id: <200108271749.f7RHnlv50143@vega.vega.com> Subject: Re: md.c broken in current To: null@pozo.com (Manfred Antar) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:49:47 +0300 (EEST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Manfred Antar" at Aug 27, 2001 10:07:10 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > From sources this morning when trying to build a kernel: > > (pro2)502}make > cc -c -O -pipe -march=pentiumpro -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -ansi -g -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../../.. -I../../../dev -I../../../contrib/dev/acpica -I../../../contrib/ipfilter -I../../../../include -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 ../../../dev/md/md.c > ../../../dev/md/md.c: In function `mddetach': > ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: `MD_PRELOAD_COMPRESSED' undeclared (first use in this function) > ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once > ../../../dev/md/md.c:814: for each function it appears in.) > *** Error code 1 OOPS, sorry, it seems that I broke it. Should be fixed in rev.1.44. Thank you for pointing out! -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:11: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.disney.com (mail.disney.com [204.128.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D968937B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com) Received: from Hermes10.corp.disney.com (hermes10.corp.disney.com [153.7.110.102]) by mail.disney.com (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with SMTP id f7RIA2e05896 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.30.50.1] by hermes.corp.disney.com with ESMTP for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:09:53 -0700 Received: from plio.fan.fa.disney.com (plio.fan.fa.disney.com [153.7.118.2]) by pecos.fa.disney.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RIHqs15154 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com (woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com [172.30.224.114]) by plio.fan.fa.disney.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA03922 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jim.Pirzyk@mailhost) From: Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com Received: (from Jim.Pirzyk@localhost) by woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com (8.11.5/8.11.5) id f7RIAth24445 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jim.Pirzyk) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200108271810.f7RIAth24445@woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: make world broken in -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Compiling sources cvs'ed this morning (Aug 27th), I get this error: cd /auto/roy/dist/pub/FreeBSD/CURRENT/src/usr.bin/file; make build-tools make: don't know how to make build-tools. Stop *** Error code 2 Stop in /auto/roy/dist/pub/FreeBSD/CURRENT/src. *** Error code 1 - JimP To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:14:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC00937B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with SMTP id f7RIEHP43711; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:14:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:14:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Bruce Evans Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: <20010827170927.V23439-100000@besplex.bde.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bruce Evans wrote: > How much faster (or slower) will it be for threaded programs (for > various numbers of CPUs)? I don't see how it can be faster for a single > CPU (interrupt threads in the kernel show that using threads tends to > pessimize both efficiency and latency for a single CPU). Note that we won't be able to see some of the impactmpacted until SMPng is further along, where KSE will pessimize a number of single-thread operations. For example, right now SMPng proc locking relies on certain proc structure entries being changed only by curproc, meaning that locks are held for reading only by other processes. With KSE, we'll need to actually hold real locks when acting on those curproc entries (in particular, reads) which may impose a substantial performance overhead. I would anticipate that a number of the other potential shortcuts in SMPng would be similarly impacted by KSE. However, since SMPng is very much a work in progress right now, that's not something I think we can quantify yet. This general issue does raise a lot of concerns however -- many locking assumptions in SMPng will need to be changed, and the locking will need to be much more thorough before we can move forward. Even pre-SMPng, we've had race issues relating to unexpected sleeps, this will only get more hairy (although architecturally better) with SMPng. I'm worried that throwing KSE into the mix is going to hurt a lot. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:23:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BFD437B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with SMTP id f7RINVP44288; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:23:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:23:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: John Baldwin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: > > I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading > > support > > to > > the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > > then this is the time to speak up! > > > > At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until > > they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific > > change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be > > welcome. > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough > changes in it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and > 6.0-release. I know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to > say it anyways. It doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything > like that (I've even helped out on it some), I just think we have enough > work in our basket. Also, I'll point out that p4's merging abilities > make tracking current relatively easy, much more so than if Julian was > maintaining a separate tree with this patch and having to keep updating > current and manually merge it all the time. Well, I won't comment on the "minority" bit at all, but must admit I have reservations from a technical and management perspective. There seem to be a number of areas we need to carefully consider in the decision: (1) What impact will the KSE import have on SMPng development (both with respects to correctness and performance)? (2) What impact will KSE have on security (for many of the same correctness reasons as SMPng)? (3) What impact will KSE have on the 5.0-RELEASE schedule, and the time it takes for 5.x to get to "stable" world? Personally, I'm really excited to see the KSE work happening (really happening, not just talking about happening). We just need to make sure that we "do the right thing" with regards to the above (and other) points. A question I'm interested in answering, and haven't due to lack of experience, is to what extent p4 makes maintaining KSE in parallel (but not on the main branch) easier. I know that from the TrustedBSD perspective, CVS is a disaster as a tool for the three-tier development model. It would simply be infeasible to maintain the KSE work using CVS. Given that p4 is now available for this work, does that make a sufficient difference? One of the things I'm worried about here is that our spectrum of solutions to the KSE integration problem is a bit too black-and-white. Right now, the choice is presented as "KSE for 5.0-RELEASE, or not", where the "or not" is pretty sweeping. Is "KSE for 6.0-RELEASE, maintained as a parallel track" a real option? If so, that would probably be my preference, due to the risks identified above. But if postponing KSE from 5.0 means throwing out the effort, then we have a much harder choice. We need to make an objective choice here, weighing the needs of our users and developers, and to make that choice we need to be properly informed on the options. We need to make the decision in a timely manner, but we shouldn't rush it, because the risks of getting it wrong are very high. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:29:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C5C37B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05325; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.11.3/8.9.1) id f7RISc092423; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:28:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15242.37206.54444.140501@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:28:38 -0400 (EDT) To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> References: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer writes: > > Can the IA64 and Alpha developers (Arm too?) > look at the KSE patch set at > http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/thediff > > This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. > it needs people who understand the other architectures to make > the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) > so that when this is checked into -current their architectures are > not broken. (On teh other hand if they would rather fix up the breakage > afterwards (which may be easier) then they should let me know > so I can get on with committing it. > Matt and I want to commit it ASAP, so we can get on with > actual threading support. Peter has also indicated that he thinks that > it should be done soon, so I need toknow if there will > be forthcoming changes for the other architectures, > or I should go ahead and commit... Please, please don't intentionally break other architectures. Esp ones that actually work, like alpha. Its basically just mechanical changes up until this point, right? You've carved up the proc struct & ranamed some things, right? I'd really appreciate it if you could make the mechanical changes required to get it to the point where it at least compiles on alpha using beast.freebsd.org. At that point, the people on -alpha should be willing to test your patch and help fix any problems that come up. Thanks, Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:31:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA7737B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01968; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28669; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28664; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:31:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Garrett Wollman Cc: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <200108271722.f7RHMtN21079@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and > > 6.0-release. > > I agree. I'd like to see this stuff happen, but I think it's too > disruptive a change while we still haven't yet gotten over many of the > SMPng issues yet. Sorry to butt in on this conversation here, but wasn't one of the main points of 5.0 and SMPng to bring KSE's into FreeBSD? Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:40: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0692537B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with SMTP id f7RIcpP44388; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:38:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:38:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <66544.998934042@critter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > (phk-isms) I found Poul-Henning's comments struck a chord with me. I agree with his comments that a commit at this point would be premature, and that more review is required. In particular, it seems like his observation that we need additional eyes and hands involved, which will give us more perspective on the work. This would probably be a good opportunity for those relying on Julian to do all the work to look at what he's done, and better yet, run it :-) Before we can make the hard choice, we need more information, and not surprisingly, that's going to require some investment. I think it's definitely an investment worth making, as KSE offers a great deal of promise. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:49:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from naboo.ethz.ch (naboo.ethz.ch [129.132.17.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E09A37B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from carlo@vis.ethz.ch) Received: by naboo.ethz.ch (Postfix, from userid 224) id DD85B275B6; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:49:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:49:25 +0200 (CEST) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <66544.998934042@critter> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Aug 27, 2001 07:40:42 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010827184925.DD85B275B6@naboo.ethz.ch> From: carlo@vis.ethz.ch (Carlo Dapor) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How about this . . . Although not running a multi-processor machine, are there guinnea-pigs, like me, who run current and do not mind carrying Julians work in our kernel. As I understand there is no set time-line for SMPng integration, is there ? I would not mind running KSE, and that only on a i686 laptop. Let's call for an interest list. +1 me My main interest is getting the Java Native threads port moving forward, beco- ming rock-solid. Ciao, derweil. -- Carlo > > In message <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: > > >I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support > >to > >the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > >then this is the time to speak up! > > I say "No, not yet". > > Not yet, because in practice nobody has been running your patches yet. > > Not yet, because we have seen no quantified performance impact numbers > (yes, I'm trying to arrange to help you produce these but on a P5/133 > things are _S_L_O_W_! > > Not yet, because I seriously doubt if anybody has had any time to review > and reflect on the way you have gone around and done things. > > Not yet, because there are, as I understand it, unresolved issues with KAME. > > Not yet, because you are generalizing from only one platform, get at least > alpha working first. > > So I propose: > > Put up your patches in a highly visible place and advertise them on > -current, -arch and -smp. > > Once at least 5 developers have publically said "I'm running these > patches on my -current machine(s) and it doesn't totally hose me" > and at least 3 of those machines are SMP and one is non-i386 > architecture, then call for "last orders before commit". > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > -- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: requires PGP version 2.6 or later mQENAzQOnboAAAEIALnpSTc5y2g21CIX5V9bMqxsixXpQZDyR3hGosGsPC8S0WXP xfJiXAw/Zq3sPZhmiGZWq8/QP/d69tm4ert6rGB5Vuue96beKei4iemBF1ZpTU9G 3/tLsL63GHTLDAf+jqNcp1xM5ORF+qkFqP1ForzED06ba7HPQomzD0uhPbczHr9p vLAsczg1Wm9op06m7VTgK/hEvOJZPdxu0i2mFC2KVmRJr/KLcjs4CyEt6S8cJk8F Q3vDOOvwa+j/AHkvejBYokNYbfA+5D6bbYmNl5GxsKmY/qxamEaPWy7lZ87v8J0E CwnfzxiFPlguHCAux3u388EWqGWyAqOeROtKqL0ABRG0JkNhcmxvIERhcG9yIDxk YXBvckBuZXNzaWUuaW5mLmV0aHouY2g+iQEVAwUQNA6dugKjnkTrSqi9AQH3kAf/ T7dFJl6YQbUKSwTxNX/rERk2W010j2fH1bkbgOOfEfvQ6LiIRJYmJQCgeehP8kEU V66vSPboGsjl+8wU5CdlmoPsf7xw94Dh+uI48/CKLFAu+Rq2lonQOuzSvEDGg1P0 pU4UyCdj5i+y89jS+wBNA/yG6wsEGWMVltWqB2UKSg1n3YbA8JqaO2x9JLtIzfoB J/jhl5Jl4kX8OJzX1XVlJTxYdu9PTwaTZP68EG6NNfEyCn5Fp6iSDtUrLms1pI5i 3U282bIhBgVXr19hVS2olqTUHGdgcRqFjcnrARIBKoB9stuKj1+ORqlDiLwJfvg5 6JNSM4HFutk/iftKBqYXhQ== =XYxp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:51:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E8A37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id B169D81D01; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:51:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:51:46 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Carlo Dapor Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827135146.H81307@elvis.mu.org> References: <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827184925.DD85B275B6@naboo.ethz.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010827184925.DD85B275B6@naboo.ethz.ch>; from carlo@vis.ethz.ch on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:49:25PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Carlo Dapor [010827 13:49] wrote: > How about this . . . > > Although not running a multi-processor machine, are there guinnea-pigs, like > me, who run current and do not mind carrying Julians work in our kernel. > > As I understand there is no set time-line for SMPng integration, is there ? > I would not mind running KSE, and that only on a i686 laptop. > > Let's call for an interest list. > > +1 me > > My main interest is getting the Java Native threads port moving forward, beco- > ming rock-solid. I'd also like to see the delta committed asap. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:52:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from naboo.ethz.ch (naboo.ethz.ch [129.132.17.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E87837B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from carlo@vis.ethz.ch) Received: by naboo.ethz.ch (Postfix, from userid 224) id 80B89275B6; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! To: carlo@vis.ethz.ch (Carlo Dapor) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010827184925.DD85B275B6@naboo.ethz.ch> from "Carlo Dapor" at Aug 27, 2001 08:49:25 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010827185248.80B89275B6@naboo.ethz.ch> From: carlo@vis.ethz.ch (Carlo Dapor) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One thing I forgot, sorry. If there is a considerable amount of people, i would appreciate it if we get the 'common' commits that go to current filtered through p4 in some way. I would dislike it to have to resort to editing every single delta . . . Ciao, derweil. -- Carlo > How about this . . . > > Although not running a multi-processor machine, are there guinnea-pigs, like > me, who run current and do not mind carrying Julians work in our kernel. > > As I understand there is no set time-line for SMPng integration, is there ? > I would not mind running KSE, and that only on a i686 laptop. > > Let's call for an interest list. > > +1 me > > My main interest is getting the Java Native threads port moving forward, beco- > ming rock-solid. > > Ciao, derweil. > -- > Carlo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 11:53: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448037B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id OAA13864; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:52:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Robert Watson Cc: Bruce Evans , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > How much faster (or slower) will it be for threaded programs (for > > various numbers of CPUs)? I don't see how it can be faster for a single > > CPU (interrupt threads in the kernel show that using threads tends to > > pessimize both efficiency and latency for a single CPU). > > Note that we won't be able to see some of the impactmpacted until SMPng is > further along, where KSE will pessimize a number of single-thread > operations. For example, right now SMPng proc locking relies on certain > proc structure entries being changed only by curproc, meaning that locks > are held for reading only by other processes. With KSE, we'll need to > actually hold real locks when acting on those curproc entries (in > particular, reads) which may impose a substantial performance overhead. I > would anticipate that a number of the other potential shortcuts in SMPng > would be similarly impacted by KSE. However, since SMPng is very much a > work in progress right now, that's not something I think we can quantify > yet. > > This general issue does raise a lot of concerns however -- many locking > assumptions in SMPng will need to be changed, and the locking will need to > be much more thorough before we can move forward. Even pre-SMPng, we've > had race issues relating to unexpected sleeps, this will only get more > hairy (although architecturally better) with SMPng. I'm worried that > throwing KSE into the mix is going to hurt a lot. I'm not sure I understand completely. Our current process lock is still the same, especially since everything is single KSE'd (threaded) unless explicitly enabled. As long as we don't try to push down the process lock any further (for now) into the KSE structures, what's the difference? This will get the code into the base kernel and make those doing the locking aware of what will be needed in the future. You don't have to change process locking until you're ready to. I don't even care right now whether we can have multiple KSEs or KSE Groups. Just a single KSE is enough for us to start. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:22:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E9537B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16995; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Kenneth Wayne Culver Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Garrett Wollman Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Kenneth Wayne Culver wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > >> < >> said: >> >> > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes >> > in >> > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and >> > 6.0-release. >> >> I agree. I'd like to see this stuff happen, but I think it's too >> disruptive a change while we still haven't yet gotten over many of the >> SMPng issues yet. > > Sorry to butt in on this conversation here, but wasn't one of the main > points of 5.0 and SMPng to bring KSE's into FreeBSD? No, SMPng and KSE are two different tasks. SMPng is multithreading the kernel to allow concurrent access to the kernel. KSE is changing the kernel to support physical concurrent threads of execution within a logical process, if that makes any sense. Either one is potentially useful w/o the other, but both together will build upon each other. > Ken -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:38:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4AF37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RJbus37602; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:37:56 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:37:52 -0400 To: John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:39 AM -0700 8/27/01, John Baldwin wrote: >On 27-Aug-01 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > I think waiting for 6.0-current is too long. Perhaps after 5.0-release. >> If we get this in 5.0, we might be able to have a usable kse threads >> library for 5.1 or 5.2. > >I'm predicting a short release cycle between 5.0 and 6.0 (compared >to 4.0 and 5.0) because 6.0 is probably going to be much more stable >than 5.x. "5.0" (or whatever name it will go by) is slated for November, right? And the plan was that a new 6.0-current branch wouldn't even be STARTED until sometime next year, because we'll be concentrating on the reliability of 5.x. These kernel changes have to go in before anyone can work on userland changes. My guess is that if we do not get the KSE kernel stuff into 5.0, then we probably won't get to the desired userland features until sometime WELL into 2003. Maybe that's better than the gap between 4.0 and 5.0, but I think it's too long to have these changes waiting around. At the kernel summit meeting, Julian was given a green light with the timetable of getting this set of changes done by August. Right now it is pretty late in August, but (thanks partially to help from others) that schedule has basically been kept to. It would be nice to reward that effort by getting these changes in. Having said that, let me also say: In a separate message, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >So I propose: > >Put up your patches in a highly visible place and advertise them on >-current, -arch and -smp. > >Once at least 5 developers have publically said "I'm running these >patches on my -current machine(s) and it doesn't totally hose me" >and at least 3 of those machines are SMP and one is non-i386 >architecture, then call for "last orders before commit". This does seem prudent to me. We should have at least a few more people running these changes before they get committed to current, and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in the next few weeks, then the changes should probably wait until after "5.0". All the above are just my opinions, of course. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:38:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6767E37B40D for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA74889; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <66544.998934042@critter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: > > >I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support > >to > >the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > >then this is the time to speak up! > > I say "No, not yet". > > Not yet, because in practice nobody has been running your patches yet. > > Not yet, because we have seen no quantified performance impact numbers > (yes, I'm trying to arrange to help you produce these but on a P5/133 > things are _S_L_O_W_! > > Not yet, because I seriously doubt if anybody has had any time to review > and reflect on the way you have gone around and done things. > > Not yet, because there are, as I understand it, unresolved issues with KAME. > > Not yet, because you are generalizing from only one platform, get at least > alpha working first. > > So I propose: > > Put up your patches in a highly visible place and advertise them on > -current, -arch and -smp. Already done several times... > > Once at least 5 developers have publically said "I'm running these > patches on my -current machine(s) and it doesn't totally hose me" > and at least 3 of those machines are SMP and one is non-i386 > architecture, then call for "last orders before commit". I agree.. this is "first orders" :-) > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:39:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBD237B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7RJd5T68366 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:39:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Junior Kernel Hacker task: Get rid of NCCD constant. From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:39:05 +0200 Message-ID: <68364.998941145@critter> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Assignment: There is no reason for the NCCD constant to exist anymore. The CCD driver already has cloning support but CCDs "softc" structure is statically allocated for NCCD devices. Change the CCD driver to dynamically allocate memory as needed, the MD driver can be used as example as the overall morphology of the two drivers are the same. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:43:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC52C37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7RJhRr24275; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:43:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108271943.f7RJhRr24275@earth.backplane.com> To: Robert Watson Cc: John Baldwin , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheesh. Everyone is so negative! Well, I'm going to be too. I think compared to some of the other things that have been thrown into -current, the KSE stuff will be the LEAST disruptive. Don't go bashing Julian for coming up with a reasoned approach to adding them, discussing the concept at many meetings (including at USENIX), and doing all the hard work to get it done. He's done a hellof a lot more discussion and worked with people a lot more any other feature that has been thrown into -current. He doesn't deserve these kind of responses, not after all the work that's been done. He's been talking about this for 2 years. TWO years! - Just for myself, I am seriously considering just throwing the whole lot (-current, that is) away and starting over from -stable. I spent 20 hours last weekend trying to unwind even part of the VM system from Giant, and failed utterly. I'd love to see the KSE stuff in -stable, I think it might even be a better fit. I am seriously considering this because I think we made a huge mistake throwing away the spl*() mechanism in -current, as a means of getting out from under the Giant lock paradigm quickly and partitioning the problem in a manner that allows subsystems to be worked on independantly. And I don't see any way to get it back. The spl*() mechanism already partitions the major subsystems that *need* to operate concurrently: I/O, interrupts, and the network stack. We would be able to work on major subsystems independantly and we would be able to debug things much more easily. -current as it currently stands is very nearly undebuggable. I've been thinking about this for the last few months... I am still thinking about it. I haven't made a decision yet. I think if KSEs go into -current I would stick with it, but if KSEs do not go into -current I don't see much of a point, -current will have wholely gone off in a direction that I don't believe in (rather then just mostly gone off). -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 12:58:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908BC37B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA74967; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:09:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: <15242.37206.54444.140501@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The mecanincal changes in C code are pretty simple, but you really need a running machine to do them because you need to change-compile-change-compile-change-compile (etc.) It took me about 1 day to do the i386 specific things.. Having doen that is should take someone with a running alpha abut a half day to do the alpha version (now that I've done the 386) and someone with a clue about alpha assembler needs to make the same changes to the machine code. (it was probably about 10 lines of assembler changes). The bigest part is the re-arranging of the u-area and changing the code to follow that change. On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > Julian Elischer writes: > > > > Can the IA64 and Alpha developers (Arm too?) > > look at the KSE patch set at > > http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/thediff > > > > This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. > > it needs people who understand the other architectures to make > > the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) > > so that when this is checked into -current their architectures are > > not broken. (On teh other hand if they would rather fix up the breakage > > afterwards (which may be easier) then they should let me know > > so I can get on with committing it. > > Matt and I want to commit it ASAP, so we can get on with > > actual threading support. Peter has also indicated that he thinks that > > it should be done soon, so I need toknow if there will > > be forthcoming changes for the other architectures, > > or I should go ahead and commit... > > Please, please don't intentionally break other architectures. Esp > ones that actually work, like alpha. > > Its basically just mechanical changes up until this point, right? > You've carved up the proc struct & ranamed some things, right? > > I'd really appreciate it if you could make the mechanical changes > required to get it to the point where it at least compiles on alpha > using beast.freebsd.org. At that point, the people on -alpha should be > willing to test your patch and help fix any problems that come up. > I REALLY want to have alpha (and hopefully other) ready to do at the same time. but at the same time, I'm 'carrying this' because as long as I'm not committed I have a daily "merge" job. And it's getting bigger as people change low level code in way s that may not be compatible with what I need. I would be happy if I could commit it in 2 weeks. I'd like some help from the other architecture people though. I've done 1.85 MB of patches and the machine dependednt parts are probably about 15K of that. > Thanks, > > Drew > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:13:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99FCF37B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 20:13:25 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:13:19 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Baldwin , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >>On 27-Aug-01 Julian Elischer wrote: >> >>>I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading >>>support >>>to >>>the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >>>then this is the time to speak up! >>> >>>At this stage a commit would break alpha and ia64 until >>>they are patched. From experience I can say that it's not a horrific >>>change to the machine dependent code so patches PRE commit would be >>>welcome. >>> >>Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in >>it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I >>know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. It >>doesn't mean I don't like the KSE work or anything like that (I've even helped >>out on it some), I just think we have enough work in our basket. Also, I'll >>point out that p4's merging abilities make tracking current relatively easy, >>much more so than if Julian was maintaining a separate tree with this patch and >>having to keep updating current and manually merge it all the time. >> >> >> > > well I expected this to some extent.. > This is why I asked.. I want to get it out where it can be discussed. > the same could also be said for full pre-emption and SMP-NG. > > It is also interestingto note that KSE isn't the only game in town. > The new PTNG package looks interesting, using normal process rforking > to generate a pthreads environment. (It's a rewrite, not a port of > linux threads). > > All I have done is brought the kernel to a state where > it is READY for work to break the 1:1 barrier. It is basically > logically exactly the same kernel as in -current. I think it introduces > far fewer logical changes than, say, the pre-emption code, > or the locking code. I agree that we could wait. I don't however think we > should. I'd rather have ONE broken period than two. At USENIX we agreed that > if I got this done it would be committed and work could start to > provide the facilities that Dan and Chris need for the Userland > code to develop. Remember, that unless you turn this on, it's > a very complicated NOP. > > What P4 does is really irrelevent because there are only 4 people using it.. > (or is that 3?). It needs a distribution channel, and P4 isn't it. > (at least not at the moment.) > > What it DOES do however is make your locking code more challenging. > But that is going to have to be faced at some time.... Count my vote as a go-for-it. I agree that waiting for 6.0 would be too long indeed. I think that having the KSE framework in the kernel for 5.0 would be a good thing, along with SMPNG... I don't think this is going to turn into another 2.0-RELEASE fiasco [No offense, David, but 2.0-R was buggier than a bum's blanket], which, I may add, was quite quckly made stable after the initial -RELEASE. My one question is: If it does turn into another 2.0-R fiasco, are you ready to put in the hours needed to put out a QUICK bugfix -RELEASE [a la 5.0.5 or whatever?]. I would still prefer a stable -RELEASE. As far as intel goes, I say go for it! jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:16:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from web11006.mail.yahoo.com (web11006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B027637B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andyelf@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010827201615.70240.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.76.104.246] by web11006.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:16:15 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrei Popov Subject: Re: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT To: Kris Kennaway , Andrei Popov Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010827021246.A37044@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:31:59PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: > > > ===> libssh > > make: don't know how to make dsa.c. Stop > > *** Error code 2 > > Something is wrong with your source..perhaps you didn't update it > completely. > > Kris maybe, but ther's no dsa.c under src/crypto/openssh on ftp mirror i am updating from -- or is it a makefile problem of not picking up the one under openssl? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:18:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5F137B406; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA75041; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Robert Watson Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jhb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > How much faster (or slower) will it be for threaded programs (for > > various numbers of CPUs)? I don't see how it can be faster for a single > > CPU (interrupt threads in the kernel show that using threads tends to > > pessimize both efficiency and latency for a single CPU). > > Note that we won't be able to see some of the impactmpacted until SMPng is > further along, where KSE will pessimize a number of single-thread > operations. For example, right now SMPng proc locking relies on certain > proc structure entries being changed only by curproc, meaning that locks > are held for reading only by other processes. With KSE, we'll need to > actually hold real locks when acting on those curproc entries (in > particular, reads) which may impose a substantial performance overhead. I > would anticipate that a number of the other potential shortcuts in SMPng > would be similarly impacted by KSE. However, since SMPng is very much a > work in progress right now, that's not something I think we can quantify > yet. > > This general issue does raise a lot of concerns however -- many locking > assumptions in SMPng will need to be changed, and the locking will need to > be much more thorough before we can move forward. Even pre-SMPng, we've > had race issues relating to unexpected sleeps, this will only get more > hairy (although architecturally better) with SMPng. I'm worried that > throwing KSE into the mix is going to hurt a lot. The curernt KSE kernel is the point in the development where there is only ever one thread per process. this is the point where we start adding code that doesn't assume this to replace code that does assume this. That is why this is a good place to do the commit. This kernel is logcally the same as a non-KSE one. For example, a process lock is sufficient to alter proc or thread structures, because they are always 1:1 Adding this commit does not alrter the work needed to get SMP locking pushed down to a few subsystems. What it DOES do is allow people to look at what is coming. It also means that the P4 integration taks is greatly reduced as changes to device drivers etc will probably not produce clashes, (where at the moment almost any change meens an integration run for me). If I wait to check in, then I have to check in code that starts to be logically different to what is there now. (because that is what I will be working on and keeping lockstepped with -current). Either that or I stay frozen and unable to proceed until 5.1 or 6.0 or whenever. If we check in what I have now then everyone's changes will already match and people can start to think abnout how their changes will be effected by threads. WIth a couple of weeks at this point we should be able to make this exactly as reliable as -current is now, and get the other ports also at the same state as i386. When that is doen I am quite happy to go off doing further development on a p4 branch again for a couple of months more, because the integration load will be MUCH less, and because others wil be able to see where we are going. What I'm trying to say, is that this is the right time to commit it becasue it will have minimum impact on -current and maximim impact on KSE. If we delay, the impact on -current will be much greater, because parts of the system will no-longer be assuming that the proc:thread relationship is 1:1. This stage is a mostly mecahnical edit, that can be easily verified against what is there previously. If we wait we will starrt to get changes that are NOT so easily verified. I would like to get THIS stage checked in so that editing mistakes can be weeded out now while they are trivial. That wil give me a solid base on which to do teh real LOGICAL changes. If we wait then when I commit, I will be committing both sets of changes at once. My timeline would be to get the other ports (and boris's filesystems) done in the next two weeks and have a bunch of people try it on different hardwware. In tow weeks when we've proved equivalent reliability, I'd commit. Then We start affresh with p4, working up a new set of changes. THIS set I would not base off -current but rather off JOhn's SMP/locking branch. In other words I'd be tracking HIS work rather than just -current. (he'd be doing MFC's and I'd be doing MFJ's) that means that further integration for him after this commit would be negligible.. (I need it this way because the locking is critical to the threads.) julian > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project > robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:18:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 68F9737B40A for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 20:18:16 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AAB07.6040508@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:18:15 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <66544.998934042@critter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: > > >>I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support >>to >>the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >>then this is the time to speak up! >> > > I say "No, not yet". > > Not yet, because in practice nobody has been running your patches yet. > > Not yet, because we have seen no quantified performance impact numbers > (yes, I'm trying to arrange to help you produce these but on a P5/133 > things are _S_L_O_W_! > > Not yet, because I seriously doubt if anybody has had any time to review > and reflect on the way you have gone around and done things. > > Not yet, because there are, as I understand it, unresolved issues with KAME. > > Not yet, because you are generalizing from only one platform, get at least > alpha working first. > > So I propose: > > Put up your patches in a highly visible place and advertise them on > -current, -arch and -smp. > > Once at least 5 developers have publically said "I'm running these > patches on my -current machine(s) and it doesn't totally hose me" > and at least 3 of those machines are SMP and one is non-i386 > architecture, then call for "last orders before commit". If Julian can guarantee it won't hose me completely from the get-go, count me as a tester. The box I would be testing this on is SMP, albeit, intel. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:31:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tgd.net (rand.tgd.net [64.81.67.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 72D7C37B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sean@mailhost.tgd.net) Received: (qmail 80171 invoked by uid 1001); 27 Aug 2001 20:31:13 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:31:13 -0700 From: Sean Chittenden To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oLBj+sq0vYjzfsbl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <66544.998934042@critter>; from "phk@critter.freebsd.dk" on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at = 07:40:42PM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --oLBj+sq0vYjzfsbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading= support > >to=20 > >the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > >then this is the time to speak up! I have one system that I've been maintaining/updating since the 2.X days and I feel it's time to nuke it and start over. +1 for a=20 non-smp system and SMP system. That said, I think the value of having both KSE and SMPng in 5.0 is HUGE and I think there is probably a large number of people that would be willing to endure kernel panics, dumps, etc. because the value (in terms of technological accomplishment and saleability in the corporate space) would be absolutely worth the bumpy road. -CURRENT isn't worth tracking unless the dumps, bugs, etc are all going toward both SMPng and KSE. If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in 5.X, then why not push back the release date? The value far outweighs the extra months needed to get it finished and out the door, but what do I know, I'm just a quiet kernel by standard making an observation. -sc --=20 Sean Chittenden --oLBj+sq0vYjzfsbl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjuKrhAACgkQn09c7x7d+q2ENQCg2yQbc4djAOgy/OvVLr8PhdIe NWAAn1Ro1+3tQs9V1s10GxMfSX8Y4UuK =v6Bc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oLBj+sq0vYjzfsbl-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:34:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B03737B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:34:14 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > "5.0" (or whatever name it will go by) is slated for November, right? > And the plan was that a new 6.0-current branch wouldn't even be STARTED > until sometime next year, because we'll be concentrating on the > reliability of 5.x. These kernel changes have to go in before anyone > can work on userland changes. My guess is that if we do not get the > KSE kernel stuff into 5.0, then we probably won't get to the desired > userland features until sometime WELL into 2003. Maybe that's better > than the gap between 4.0 and 5.0, but I think it's too long to have > these changes waiting around. I agree... I thought the idea of 5.0 was to kick Linux in the butt. It isn't as if they are just sitting around... FreeBSD is going to be left in the dust unless both the SMPng *AND* KSE projects are integrated into 5.0. > At the kernel summit meeting, Julian was given a green light with the > timetable of getting this set of changes done by August. Right now it > is pretty late in August, but (thanks partially to help from others) > that schedule has basically been kept to. It would be nice to reward > that effort by getting these changes in. [Looks at calandar] Yup! It's August! Good work Julian! > This does seem prudent to me. We should have at least a few more > people running these changes before they get committed to current, > and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to > be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have > to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this > come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in > the next few weeks, then the changes should probably wait until > after "5.0". I believe that I read in an earlier thread that the archetecture-specific changes are minimal, and that majority of the changes are in high-level constructs in the kernel. Of course, I could be recalling this incorrectly, but I don't think I am... jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:40:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E5A537B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 20:40:26 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:40:25 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Chittenden Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sean Chittenden wrote: >>>I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threading support >>>to >>>the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, >>>then this is the time to speak up! >>> > > I have one system that I've been maintaining/updating since the > 2.X days and I feel it's time to nuke it and start over. +1 for a > non-smp system and SMP system. > > That said, I think the value of having both KSE and SMPng in 5.0 > is HUGE and I think there is probably a large number of people that > would be willing to endure kernel panics, dumps, etc. because the value > (in terms of technological accomplishment and saleability in the > corporate space) would be absolutely worth the bumpy road. -CURRENT > isn't worth tracking unless the dumps, bugs, etc are all going toward > both SMPng and KSE. Hey, anyone running -current without a tape drive attached with a daily dump schedule is either insane, a masochist, or both. Read my post from this morning about the mysterious filesystem corruption I had this morning... Kudos to Justin Gibbs for fixing EOM detection [let's get his scsi_sa.c patches committed ASAP]!!! > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in 5.X, > then why not push back the release date? The value far outweighs the > extra months needed to get it finished and out the door, but what do I > know, I'm just a quiet kernel by standard making an observation. -sc Good idea. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:43:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187A537B403; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7RKgnT24926; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:42:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108272042.f7RKgnT24926@earth.backplane.com> To: Jim Bryant Cc: Garance A Drosihn , John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to :> be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have :> to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this :> come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in :> the next few weeks, then the changes should probably wait until :> after "5.0". : : :I believe that I read in an earlier thread that the archetecture-specific changes are minimal, and that majority of the changes are :in high-level constructs in the kernel. Of course, I could be recalling this incorrectly, but I don't think I am... : :jim Yes, this is correct. The assembly changes are just structural indirections for things that were broken off from the proc structure. The scheduler now messes with 'threads' rather then 'processes' for the most part. That part of the diff set is involved but straight forward. Julian also add KSTACK_PAGES to allow the kernel stack to be specified in a more controlled manner. Here is an excerpt so you can see what I mean: ... - - movl P_VMSPACE(%ecx), %edx + movl TD_PROC(%ecx), %eax + movl P_VMSPACE(%eax), %edx movl PCPU(CPUID), %eax btrl %eax, VM_PMAP+PM_ACTIVE(%edx) - movl P_ADDR(%ecx),%edx + movl TD_PCB(%ecx),%edx ... See? not much too it. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:43:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D885C37B405; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7RKhVM03734; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83656390B; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Julian Elischer Cc: Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jhb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:31 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > > > How much faster (or slower) will it be for threaded programs (for > > > various numbers of CPUs)? I don't see how it can be faster for a single > > > CPU (interrupt threads in the kernel show that using threads tends to > > > pessimize both efficiency and latency for a single CPU). > > > > Note that we won't be able to see some of the impactmpacted until SMPng is > > further along, where KSE will pessimize a number of single-thread > > operations. For example, right now SMPng proc locking relies on certain > > proc structure entries being changed only by curproc, meaning that locks > > are held for reading only by other processes. With KSE, we'll need to > > actually hold real locks when acting on those curproc entries (in > > particular, reads) which may impose a substantial performance overhead. I > > would anticipate that a number of the other potential shortcuts in SMPng > > would be similarly impacted by KSE. However, since SMPng is very much a > > work in progress right now, that's not something I think we can quantify > > yet. > > > > This general issue does raise a lot of concerns however -- many locking > > assumptions in SMPng will need to be changed, and the locking will need to > > be much more thorough before we can move forward. Even pre-SMPng, we've > > had race issues relating to unexpected sleeps, this will only get more > > hairy (although architecturally better) with SMPng. I'm worried that > > throwing KSE into the mix is going to hurt a lot. > > The curernt KSE kernel is the point in the development > where there is only ever one thread per process. > this is the point where we start adding code that doesn't assume this > to replace code that does assume this. > That is why this is a good place to do the commit. For what it is worth, I am in agreement with Julian. The KSE code is at an ideal "checkpoint" stage, but we must not rush it and screw things up. The main reason that I would like it to be committed soon is that it reduces the amount of "moving target" that the KSE part of the work has to track. The bulk of the current changes in the current diffs are API related and dont really change the core structural things too much. Trying to keep a live branch up to date *and* implement the structural changes is a tall order. We saw what happened to the BSD/OS folks, they spent 2 or 3 days a week catching up to the current tip of tree, and only ~2 days on actual SMP work. If we get this checkpoint into the main tree in a timely fashion then we get the bulk of the tree-chasing out of the way and can implement ${Your_favorite_thread_frontend} at your leisure. Heck, this stuff is generic enough that it is required for any of the thread systems, be it full-blown KSE, or the NetBSD style lwp/sa, or linuxthreads style things, or whatever. If any committers want to get involved, there is a stale p4 quickstart guide at: http://people.freebsd.org/~peter/p4cookbook.txt. You can check out //depot/projects/kse/sys/... and review to your hearts's content. My personal check list before committing it to -current is: - an honest shot at getting the Alpha working. Shouldn't be too hard. I'll work on this if nobody else will. - finish the userland build stuff. - carefully reread all of the key diffs for i386/i386/*, kern/*, vm/* etc. - take a look at ports impact and prepare them for the landing. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:44:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907AA37B416 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7RKihx24003; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:44:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:44:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200108272044.f7RKihx24003@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> References: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > FreeBSD is going to be left in the dust unless both the SMPng *AND* > KSE projects are integrated into 5.0. I care about having a system that works well and does what I ask of it. What the Linux horde is doing is of little concern to me, and I suspect the same goes for a number of other long-time FreeBSDers. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 13:49:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tgd.net (rand.tgd.net [64.81.67.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 406C637B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sean@mailhost.tgd.net) Received: (qmail 80397 invoked by uid 1001); 27 Aug 2001 20:49:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:49:02 -0700 From: Sean Chittenden To: Jim Bryant Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com>; from "kc5vdj@yahoo.com" on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at = 03:40:25PM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>>I am ready to do my megga-commit to add the first stage of KSE-threadi= ng support > >>>to=20 > >>>the kernel. If there is any argument as to the wisdom of this move, > >>>then this is the time to speak up! > >>> > >=20 > > I have one system that I've been maintaining/updating since the > > 2.X days and I feel it's time to nuke it and start over. +1 for a=20 > > non-smp system and SMP system. > >=20 > > That said, I think the value of having both KSE and SMPng in 5.0 > > is HUGE and I think there is probably a large number of people that > > would be willing to endure kernel panics, dumps, etc. because the value > > (in terms of technological accomplishment and saleability in the > > corporate space) would be absolutely worth the bumpy road. -CURRENT > > isn't worth tracking unless the dumps, bugs, etc are all going toward > > both SMPng and KSE. >=20 >=20 > Hey, anyone running -current without a tape drive attached with a daily d= ump schedule is either insane, a masochist, or both. >=20 > Read my post from this morning about the mysterious filesystem corruption= I had this morning... Kudos to Justin Gibbs for fixing=20 > EOM detection [let's get his scsi_sa.c patches committed ASAP]!!! Thanks for the heads up! Fortunately I have a few -STABLE systems that I can dump to and that host all of my email/development. =20 ;) I'll probably go and pick up another 40+GB HD just for the extra head-room. > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in 5.X, > > then why not push back the release date? The value far outweighs the > > extra months needed to get it finished and out the door, but what do I > > know, I'm just a quiet kernel by standard making an observation. -sc >=20 >=20 > Good idea. Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line at the expense of some very important and very fundamental enhancements to FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core to talk about/discuss, but I bet that if a poll was put on the homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint hint) asking about this, you'd get an overwhelming response to see KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a poll you might even pick up some more testers given the exposure (hint hint). -sc --=20 Sean Chittenden --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjuKsj4ACgkQn09c7x7d+q1/9gCfeWyt6U9K5J0LCkPpi9rtQIwx 0xEAnR5GdNkXw87dfF4ABUW09AGdPqkl =35ht -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14: 0:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3DB37B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 21:00:38 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AB4F3.1000208@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:00:35 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Dillon Cc: Garance A Drosihn , John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> <200108272042.f7RKgnT24926@earth.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon wrote: > :> and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to > :> be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have > :> to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this > :> come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in > :> the next few weeks, then the changes should probably wait until > :> after "5.0". > : > : > :I believe that I read in an earlier thread that the archetecture-specific changes are minimal, and that majority of the changes are > :in high-level constructs in the kernel. Of course, I could be recalling this incorrectly, but I don't think I am... > : > :jim > > Yes, this is correct. The assembly changes are just structural > indirections for things that were broken off from the proc structure. > The scheduler now messes with 'threads' rather then 'processes' for > the most part. That part of the diff set is involved but straight > forward. Julian also add KSTACK_PAGES to allow the kernel stack to > be specified in a more controlled manner. > > Here is an excerpt so you can see what I mean: > > ... > - > - movl P_VMSPACE(%ecx), %edx > + movl TD_PROC(%ecx), %eax > + movl P_VMSPACE(%eax), %edx > movl PCPU(CPUID), %eax > btrl %eax, VM_PMAP+PM_ACTIVE(%edx) > > - movl P_ADDR(%ecx),%edx > + movl TD_PCB(%ecx),%edx > ... > > See? not much too it. > > -Matt That's about what I thought it would be... If the other archetectures are so flaky right now under FreeBSD, then maybe some people are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to opposing KSE integration using the other archetectures as the crux of their argument. Sounds like they need to be kicking some butts to catch up with the pack! Testing should be across the board, but I don't see any reason why, if the maintainers of the other archetectures are so behind on other tasks that they can't have a seperate, later, 5.0-RELEASE for them. We shouldn't sacrifice intel functionality for timetable slippage on the other archetectures, and honestly, that's how I'm reading the arguments against... Again, I could be wrong, but... Of course, we could always end up like NetBSD, with a development cycle that makes FreeBSD's current cycle look fast, only because of support for all of the different archetectures. No offense to the NetBSD'ers out there, NetBSD is a fine OS, but my point is that FreeBSD is [or was] a different paradigm, primarily [but not exclusively] intel. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14: 1:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E44B37B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1C88066E33; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:01:32 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Andrei Popov Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT Message-ID: <20010827140132.A44372@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010827021246.A37044@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010827201615.70240.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010827201615.70240.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>; from andyelf@yahoo.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:15PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:15PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: > maybe, but ther's no dsa.c under src/crypto/openssh on ftp mirror i > am updating from -- or is it a makefile problem of not picking up the > one under openssl? There's not supposed to be..it was removed 3 months ago. Kris --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7irUsWry0BWjoQKURAnbFAKCAWOENHSDCAmnKe/1VeKfOvFtnoQCgsctd lUhcidZvOO4NOUJTmHMI+PE= =wIND -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14: 5: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A72937B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21230; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:04:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7RL4qO23486; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:04:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:04:51 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Jim Bryant Cc: Matt Dillon , Garance A Drosihn , John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827230451.A14269@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> <200108272042.f7RKgnT24926@earth.backplane.com> <3B8AB4F3.1000208@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8AB4F3.1000208@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:00:35PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:00:35PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > Matt Dillon wrote: > > > :> and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to > > :> be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have > > :> to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this > > :> come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in ... > That's about what I thought it would be... > > If the other archetectures are so flaky right now under FreeBSD, then maybe some people are barking up the wrong tree when it comes > to opposing KSE integration using the other archetectures as the crux of their argument. Sounds like they need to be kicking some > butts to catch up with the pack! > > Testing should be across the board, but I don't see any reason why, if the maintainers of the other archetectures are so behind on > other tasks that they can't have a seperate, later, 5.0-RELEASE for them. We shouldn't sacrifice intel functionality for timetable > slippage on the other archetectures, and honestly, that's how I'm reading the arguments against... Again, I could be wrong, but... You are. This is a far to simplistic (and IMHO quite rude) approach to the non-x86 work that has been done over time. > Of course, we could always end up like NetBSD, with a development cycle that makes FreeBSD's current cycle look fast, only because > of support for all of the different archetectures. No offense to the NetBSD'ers out there, NetBSD is a fine OS, but my point is > that FreeBSD is [or was] a different paradigm, primarily [but not exclusively] intel. You seem to have missed the advent of arm, sparc64, powerpc ports for FreeBSD. -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14:38:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F067737B406; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA75399; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > This does seem prudent to me. We should have at least a few more > people running these changes before they get committed to current, > and preferably on more than the i386 platform. If we are going to > be serious about supporting more hardware platforms, then we have > to start treating them more seriously when major changes like this > come along. If we can't get some broader testing of this done in > the next few weeks, then the changes should probably wait until > after "5.0". I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support for the other platforms. However I need support from the people DOING those platforms to go further. I also want more people to try the patches. So far the only problem Matt Dillon and I have seen is the re-appearance of a panic during reboot that must be something silly I've done :-) I'll be doing MFC's each day into P4, and keeping my patch set at http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/thediff up to date. (If you have cvs access you have P4 access if you'd rather do that) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14:39:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5242B37B406; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7RLd5T69959; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:39:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Peter Wemm Cc: Julian Elischer , Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jhb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:43:31 PDT." <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:39:05 +0200 Message-ID: <69957.998948345@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au>, Peter Wemm writes: >My personal check list before committing it to -current is: >- an honest shot at getting the Alpha working. Shouldn't be too hard. > I'll work on this if nobody else will. >- finish the userland build stuff. >- carefully reread all of the key diffs for i386/i386/*, kern/*, vm/* etc. >- take a look at ports impact and prepare them for the landing. If you add: - Beat the shit out of it together with other developers for a couple of weeks. Then I'm all for committing it when you have checked off those boxes. Without that last item I'm against, no matter what. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14:42: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2AAF37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with SMTP id f7RLffP46905; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:41:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:41:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Matt Dillon Cc: John Baldwin , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <200108271943.f7RJhRr24275@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: > Sheesh. Everyone is so negative! Well, I'm going to be too. > > I think compared to some of the other things that have been thrown into > -current, the KSE stuff will be the LEAST disruptive. Don't go bashing > Julian for coming up with a reasoned approach to adding them, discussing > the concept at many meetings (including at USENIX), and doing all the > hard work to get it done. He's done a hellof a lot more discussion and > worked with people a lot more any other feature that has been thrown into > -current. He doesn't deserve these kind of responses, not after all the > work that's been done. He's been talking about this for 2 years. TWO > years! With all due respect, I was not attempting to bash Julian. I was raising two classes of concerns that seemed to merit further discussion: (1) technical concerns relating to SMPng, and (2) concerns about the release schedule for 5.0-RELEASE. Neither of these reflects on Julian's work, rather, the environment in which the work is being done, and external constraints on the work that must be considered. Julian has responded with a detailed response addressing these concerns. I think it might be more constructive to consider this discussion in those terms, and avoid concepts like "bash". We know we need to make an informed decision here, which means we need to consider all the options, which may mean discussing the controversial ones. I'm not fundamentally opposed to KSE: I would like to see it in the system as much as you, and am quite aware of the potential benefits. I just want to make sure we don't go three years without a stable release to get there. If the answer to the questions is either fine, or addressible, then we're set. John has expressed a number of concerns with regards to SMPng, and I take those concerns seriously. I'm still reading Julian's response, and will no doubt respond to that later if I have any further questions :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14:58:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068AB37B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA75514; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:09:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Peter Wemm , Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jhb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons In-Reply-To: <69957.998948345@critter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au>, Peter Wemm writes: > > >My personal check list before committing it to -current is: > >- an honest shot at getting the Alpha working. Shouldn't be too hard. > > I'll work on this if nobody else will. > >- finish the userland build stuff. > >- carefully reread all of the key diffs for i386/i386/*, kern/*, vm/* etc. > >- take a look at ports impact and prepare them for the landing. > > If you add: > > - Beat the shit out of it together with other developers for a couple of > weeks. > > Then I'm all for committing it when you have checked off those boxes. I agree with this list. > > Without that last item I'm against, no matter what. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 14:58:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD5437B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RLvns40398; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:57:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:57:46 -0400 To: Sean Chittenden , Jim Bryant From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:49 PM -0700 8/27/01, Sean Chittenden wrote: > > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in > > > 5.X, then why not push back the release date? The value far > > > outweighs the extra months needed to get it finished and out > > > the door, ...etc... > > >> Good idea. > > Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line >at the expense of some very important and very fundamental >enhancements to FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core >to talk about/discuss, but I bet that if a poll was put on the >homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint hint) asking about this, you'd >get an overwhelming response to see KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a >poll you might even pick up some more testers given the exposure >(hint hint). -sc We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be true that there are more "very important enhancements" on the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most people WILL stay away from it. And as long as most people DO stay away from it, it will always be shaky, and it will also be tempting to add "just one more thing" to justify the delays you have already chalked up. That, in turn, causes more delays. One might call this "The Copland Effect", where you're so busy adding new stuff that you never get to a shipping product... You can not claim to be "kicking Linux's butt" (or anyone else's butt) if your product is not actually "fit for production use", which is to say, "released". I would very much like to see the KSE work in "5.0", but I still would rather delay that for a later release instead of delaying "5.0" for another three or four months. Just MO. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 15: 2: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5F5C37B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 22:02:01 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:02:00 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Sean Chittenden , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 1:49 PM -0700 8/27/01, Sean Chittenden wrote: > >> > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in >> > > 5.X, then why not push back the release date? The value far >> > > outweighs the extra months needed to get it finished and out >> > > the door, ...etc... >> > >> >>> Good idea. >> >> >> Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line >> at the expense of some very important and very fundamental >> enhancements to FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core >> to talk about/discuss, but I bet that if a poll was put on the >> homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint hint) asking about this, you'd >> get an overwhelming response to see KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a >> poll you might even pick up some more testers given the exposure >> (hint hint). -sc > > > We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some > very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be > true that there are more "very important enhancements" on > the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have > to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that > point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most I'm glad you support integration of KSE then... As I recall such threading was in the original design specs for 5.0, as released when work on 5.0 began. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 15:12:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F83C37B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05332; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:11:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer , Poul-Henning Kamp , Sean Chittenden , Garance A Drosihn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Jim Bryant wrote: > > > Garance A Drosihn wrote: > >> At 1:49 PM -0700 8/27/01, Sean Chittenden wrote: >> >>> > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in >>> > > 5.X, then why not push back the release date? The value far >>> > > outweighs the extra months needed to get it finished and out >>> > > the door, ...etc... >>> > >>> >>>> Good idea. >>> >>> >>> Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line >>> at the expense of some very important and very fundamental >>> enhancements to FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core >>> to talk about/discuss, but I bet that if a poll was put on the >>> homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint hint) asking about this, you'd >>> get an overwhelming response to see KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a >>> poll you might even pick up some more testers given the exposure >>> (hint hint). -sc >> >> >> We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some >> very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be >> true that there are more "very important enhancements" on >> the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have >> to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that >> point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most > > > I'm glad you support integration of KSE then... As I recall such threading > was in the original design specs for 5.0, as released > when work on 5.0 began. Yes, and if we had lots more man-hours on the KSE and SMPng projects such that they were farther along now things would be different. The fact is that the planning for 5.0 may have been a bit optimistic. However, I'll try and review the KSE diff as well. The diffs themselves aren't bad, I just think that we will end up with too much complexity and room for things to break each other with the breakage hard to find since you can't pin it down as easily. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 15:20: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com (smtp011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21B4537B40B for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 22:19:58 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AC78D.3020603@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:19:57 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Sean Chittenden , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Bryant wrote: > > > Garance A Drosihn wrote: > >> At 1:49 PM -0700 8/27/01, Sean Chittenden wrote: >> >>> > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in >>> > > 5.X, then why not push back the release date? The value far >>> > > outweighs the extra months needed to get it finished and out >>> > > the door, ...etc... >>> > >>> >>>> Good idea. >>> >>> >>> >>> Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line >>> at the expense of some very important and very fundamental >>> enhancements to FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core >>> to talk about/discuss, but I bet that if a poll was put on the >>> homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint hint) asking about this, you'd >>> get an overwhelming response to see KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a >>> poll you might even pick up some more testers given the exposure >>> (hint hint). -sc >> >> >> >> We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some >> very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be >> true that there are more "very important enhancements" on >> the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have >> to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that >> point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most > > > > I'm glad you support integration of KSE then... As I recall such > threading was in the original design specs for 5.0, as released when > work on 5.0 began. Just to clarify things... Myself, and I am sure, many others signed on and committed to the testing of 5.0-current two years ago under the assumption that some of the stated goals of 5.0 were SMPng/fine-grained locking, and native threading. I'm not lowering my expectations. And please don't tell me that I put up with panics, filesystem corruption, and all of the other problems inherent with such testing just to come up with less than we expected to begin with. I agree that this needs to be committed, I also agree that a few small hurdles may need to be jumped before the integration [as is being discussed in the other thread]... The point is that it *SHOULD* be committed, the very moving target you speak of is the enemy to ever getting this finished. So long as it remains external, most of the work on it will merely be keeping it in sync with -current, rather than doing the real work of getting it implemented. Getting this internal, committed to -current, is the next step in it's development. Run that through your correctness checker... jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 15:36: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B7837B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RMZrs111066; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:35:53 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:35:50 -0400 To: Julian Elischer From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: John Baldwin , Daniel Eischen , current@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:48 PM -0700 8/27/01, Julian Elischer wrote: >I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support for >the other platforms. However I need support from the people DOING >those platforms to go further. > >I also want more people to try the patches. So far the only problem >Matt Dillon and I have seen is the re-appearance of a panic during >reboot that must be something silly I've done :-) This sounds good. I'm hopefully just about a week away from having a little more spare time, at which point I could try -current on my dual-P3 box, and try your changes on top of that. At the moment I can't help much with any other platforms, although I would definitely be willing to help test powerPC changes (once that port is far enough along to run :-). I should admit that my interest in other architectures is more for the up-and-coming PowerPC and Sparc-64 ports, instead of the already- working port of Alpha... >I'll be doing MFC's each day into P4, and keeping my patch set at > http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/thediff >up to date. (If you have cvs access you have P4 access if you'd >rather do that) I can sense that some freebsd developers are having good luck with perforce, but for me it'd be one extra thing that I would have to figure out, and figuring out perforce isn't high on my current list of priorities... -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16: 3:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from technokratis.com (modemcable093.62-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca [24.201.62.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311EB37B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:03:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmilekic@technokratis.com) Received: (from bmilekic@localhost) by technokratis.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7RN54t08838; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:05:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bmilekic) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:05:04 -0400 From: Bosko Milekic To: Julian Elischer Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Peter Wemm , Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons Message-ID: <20010827190504.A8647@technokratis.com> References: <69957.998948345@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from julian@elischer.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:09:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:09:53PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > In message <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au>, Peter Wemm writes: > > > > >My personal check list before committing it to -current is: > > >- an honest shot at getting the Alpha working. Shouldn't be too hard. > > > I'll work on this if nobody else will. > > >- finish the userland build stuff. > > >- carefully reread all of the key diffs for i386/i386/*, kern/*, vm/* etc. > > >- take a look at ports impact and prepare them for the landing. > > > > If you add: > > > > - Beat the shit out of it together with other developers for a couple of > > weeks. > > > > Then I'm all for committing it when you have checked off those boxes. > > I agree with this list. I think that realistically speaking, after having looked over the diff, and after considering what was discussed here, that it would be a good time to introduce the KSE work done thus far some time soon, after said testing is done. The reason for this is that the KSE changes to date are, as Julian and some others mentionned, "infrastructural changes," and not _functional_ changes. Therefore, I don't expect them to create additional logic issues (e.g. "I wonder if it's KSE's semantics that are breaking this..." shouldn't come up with these changes when debugging other code). Thus, I agree with Peter and Julian on this issue and will be applying the diff to both dual CPU machines I have here and testing tonight. At the same time, I do hope that the actual _functional_ changes come in a hopefully more orderly/slower manner so that it is in fact possible to track down logic problems w.r.t. KSE should they arise. On another (perhaps unrelated) note, I've noticed on the lists at least one or two -CURRENT users/testers insist on having KSE functionality but at the same time expecting to have production material in early 5.0 "releases." I find this to be disturbing. While I do agree that earlier "5.0 releases" should deffinately reach out to the largest userbase possible, I am concerned that some users will perhaps expect so much from the system that they will immediately go ahead and pit it against more mature SMP OSes out there and then go on to complain about everything under the Sun because "brand new functionality (X) is not what I expected." The robustness and performance of the work being done now will become more and more apparent only as things progress and it should be noted that all of these "nice things" resulting from all the work we're presently doing will not just all magically surface when 5.0-RC1 (or whatever it's going to be called) is "released." -- Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16: 5: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D707337B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RN4is50942; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:04:45 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:04:40 -0400 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: Sean Chittenden , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:02 PM -0500 8/27/01, Jim Bryant wrote: >Garance A Drosihn wrote: >>We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some >>very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be >>true that there are more "very important enhancements" on >>the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have >>to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that >>point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most > >I'm glad you support integration of KSE then... As I recall such >threading was in the original design specs for 5.0, as released >when work on 5.0 began. I'm disappointed that you completely misunderstood what I intended to say in the above. My point is that sometimes you have to stick to a "ship date" because you have to stick to that date, and not because you stick to some list of features that you'd like to see. The longer you let ship-dates slip, the longer you end up without a release-quality product. I think a lot of good work has gone into the current cut at KSE support, and I certainly hope it goes in. However, there are a number of other factors to consider. The right way to get KSE in 5.0 is to help do the work which is necessary for that to happen, and not to deliberately misquote people -- as you are pretty clearly doing in the above. What I explicitly said in the above message (and which you explicitly deleted) was that KSE should wait for a later release if the remaining work is not done. If you have some other opinion, that is fine, but do not reword *my* opinion to claim that I agree completely with your opinion. Julian did a lot of good work, all he needs is a few more developers to help test that work. None of us need a thread arguing about release dates vs some goals set two years ago. I "support" the integration of KSE in the sense that I intend to help test it (on a dual-CPU i386) sometime in the next week. I do not support a delay of "5.0". I can not test on Alpha, as I have no Alpha machines. Anyone who wants to prove their support for KSE in 5.0 should step up and offer to do some of the testing, etc. Actions will speak louder than any (misquoted) words. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16:18:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A292F37B406; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7RNIGu26916; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:18:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108272318.f7RNIGu26916@earth.backplane.com> To: Robert Watson Cc: John Baldwin , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I'm not fundamentally opposed to KSE: I would like to see it in the system :as much as you, and am quite aware of the potential benefits. I just want :to make sure we don't go three years without a stable release to get :there. If the answer to the questions is either fine, or addressible, :... : :Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project :robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services I think if KSE goes in (in the next couple of weeks, on Julian's timeline with reasonable, but not excessive additional testing), I will personally be a much happier camper in regards to working on -current. To me it will be a real turning point for the project -- the last 'big' piece of technology we promised ourselves we would get in. And I have been and will continue to be available to help track down and work out bugs in that work, and in other work. The single biggest problem -current faces right now is in unwinding Giant. It is an even larger problem then people think, I think. Because Giant still surrounds nearly all the running code there are almost certainly dozens of bugs that will come out of the woodwork as Giant gets moved inward. Hell, maybe I shouldn't be working on the VM system at all right now... maybe I should be working on mutexing data structures in order to move Giant inward. e.g. filesystem and I/O paths. The VM code is the hardest piece, it should probably be saved for last. We are not going to truely be able to stabilize -current until Giant is mostly gone. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16:28:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98E7237B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 23:28:17 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8AD790.1050608@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:28:16 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bosko Milekic Cc: Julian Elischer , Poul-Henning Kamp , Peter Wemm , Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons References: <69957.998948345@critter> <20010827190504.A8647@technokratis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bosko Milekic wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:09:53PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > >>On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >> >>>In message <20010827204331.83656390B@overcee.netplex.com.au>, Peter Wemm writes: >>> >>> >>>>My personal check list before committing it to -current is: >>>>- an honest shot at getting the Alpha working. Shouldn't be too hard. >>>> I'll work on this if nobody else will. >>>>- finish the userland build stuff. >>>>- carefully reread all of the key diffs for i386/i386/*, kern/*, vm/* etc. >>>>- take a look at ports impact and prepare them for the landing. >>>> >>>If you add: >>> >>> - Beat the shit out of it together with other developers for a couple of >>> weeks. >>> >>>Then I'm all for committing it when you have checked off those boxes. >>> >>I agree with this list. >> > > I think that realistically speaking, after having looked over the > diff, and after considering what was discussed here, that it would be > a good time to introduce the KSE work done thus far some time soon, > after said testing is done. The reason for this is that the KSE > changes to date are, as Julian and some others mentionned, > "infrastructural changes," and not _functional_ changes. Therefore, I > don't expect them to create additional logic issues (e.g. "I wonder if > it's KSE's semantics that are breaking this..." shouldn't come up with > these changes when debugging other code). > Thus, I agree with Peter and Julian on this issue and will be > applying the diff to both dual CPU machines I have here and testing > tonight. At the same time, I do hope that the actual _functional_ > changes come in a hopefully more orderly/slower manner so that it is > in fact possible to track down logic problems w.r.t. KSE should they > arise. > > On another (perhaps unrelated) note, I've noticed on the lists at > least one or two -CURRENT users/testers insist on having KSE > functionality but at the same time expecting to have production > material in early 5.0 "releases." I find this to be disturbing. While > I do agree that earlier "5.0 releases" should deffinately reach out to > the largest userbase possible, I am concerned that some users will > perhaps expect so much from the system that they will immediately go > ahead and pit it against more mature SMP OSes out there and then go on > to complain about everything under the Sun because "brand new > functionality (X) is not what I expected." The robustness and > performance of the work being done now will become more and more > apparent only as things progress and it should be noted that all of > these "nice things" resulting from all the work we're presently doing > will not just all magically surface when 5.0-RC1 (or whatever it's > going to be called) is "released." As I recall, *total* "functionality" of the subsystems wasn't promised for 5.0-R, but the infrastructure *was* promised. I expect you are reponding to my post in the other thread... Nobody is expecting a kick-butt implementation to just spring from the head of Zeus, but the infrastructure should be in place so that a kick-butt implementation can be made from it in the time that follows. With the infrastructure in place, we can probably expect a good implementation by 5.1-R, if it doesn't get committed at this stage, Julian will be lucky to get it in by 6.0-R, and I bet all the same arguments against will come up then as well. The patches seem relatively benign, and after some basic immediate testing, they should be committed to -current. That's all I'm trying to say. My response to the other gentleman were to address his comments that FreeBSD should not even hit the goals it had set initially for 5.0. I disagree with those arguments completely. I thought that Jordan and the core team had a good, even pessimistic estimate a couple of years ago for the future of 5.0 and even 6.0 as I recall... IMHO, I would tend to say that those estimates were pessimistic even. It definitely wasn't a "everything, including the kitchen sink" philosophy such as they had for 2.0-R [which was also influenced by legal matters], a lot of people may still remember that release, and the mad rush to fix the newly-introduced problems afterwards, I'm certain that David Greenman and some others do :^) Expecting to see the base infrastructure in place with at least some functionality of the new infrastructure is being realistic. Expecting a *PERFECT* implementation and *FULL* functionality of the new paradigms isn't. I want to see a functional SMPng for sure, but Julian is right, now is the time for the KSE infrastructure to be committed, it's at that stage. Just clarifying my "clarification" here. BTW: shouldn't this be in the other thread? jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16:49:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A373437B408; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA10740; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B8AD790.1050608@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:49:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , Bosko Milekic Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Aug-01 Jim Bryant wrote: > As I recall, *total* "functionality" of the subsystems wasn't promised for > 5.0-R, but the infrastructure *was* promised. I expect > you are reponding to my post in the other thread... Grr, do you develop software? Hmm, well, no matter what you do, I'm sure we can come up with an example of having two enormous changes being made at the same time. It's painful, it's more painful than doing them one at a time. Right now the patchset is indeed benign, but trying to split up KSE's at the same time as the kernel is being ripped apart to be locked down is going to cause much frustration with things breaking due to weird combinations of things that worked fine in each other's local trees. > Nobody is expecting a kick-butt implementation to just spring from the head > of Zeus, but the infrastructure should be in place so > that a kick-butt implementation can be made from it in the time that follows. > With the infrastructure in place, we can probably > expect a good implementation by 5.1-R, if it doesn't get committed at this > stage, Julian will be lucky to get it in by 6.0-R, and I > bet all the same arguments against will come up then as well. Why in the world would people protest putting KSE in 6.0? 5.0 is close to release here, and the idea is that SMPng will be much farther along so that the pain won't be as great if we wait until 6.0-current. > My response to the other gentleman were to address his comments that FreeBSD > should not even hit the goals it had set initially for > 5.0. I disagree with those arguments completely. If a task takes X amount of effort, and you only have Y < X amount of effort to expend, then you aren't going to achieve the task. You can't change that by decreeing that this feature adn that feature will be in FreeBSD at such and such a date because Jordan said so 2 years ago. Do you realize how long it has taken commercial OS's with several full-time _paid_ employees to achieve the same tasks we are doing in SMPng and KSE? My best guess is that SMPng won't be finished for at least 2 years, and that is not taking KSE into account. In truth, SMPng has up to this point been largely infrastructure work, and there is still infrastructure work to be done at that. Perhaps I'm being uber-paranoid about this. *sigh* -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 16:59:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C905037B40A for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 23:59:35 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8ADEE5.6020903@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:59:33 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Sean Chittenden , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 5:02 PM -0500 8/27/01, Jim Bryant wrote: > >> Garance A Drosihn wrote: >> >>> We can't just keep pushing back the release date because "some >>> very important enhancements" could be made. It will ALWAYS be >>> true that there are more "very important enhancements" on >>> the horizon, and you can't keep running after those. You have >>> to pick some point, and stick to that point, and "ship" at that >>> point. As long as current is known to be in rapid flux, most >> >> >> I'm glad you support integration of KSE then... As I recall such >> threading was in the original design specs for 5.0, as released >> when work on 5.0 began. > > > I'm disappointed that you completely misunderstood what I intended > to say in the above. My point is that sometimes you have to stick > to a "ship date" because you have to stick to that date, and not > because you stick to some list of features that you'd like to see. > The longer you let ship-dates slip, the longer you end up without > a release-quality product. I to this day still think that was the reasoning behind the Thanksgiving [An American Holiday] release of 2.0-R. What a disaster! I know for a fact that MickeySoft has had this philosophy since at least Win-95.. What a disaster! Marketing people screaming about ship-dates are the prime cause of unstable software, IMHO. Software should be shipped when design goals are met, not before. Last I heard, 4.4-R is RSN... Why should there be a mad rush to release 5.0-R practically right after 4.4-R, especially if it's not yet ready for prime-time? At the rate things are going, even WITH KSE integrated, 5.0-R should be close to the currently projected release date. I forget... Wasn't the *ORIGINAL* release date for 5.0-R slated for early-2002? What happened to that? Marketing types step in? > I think a lot of good work has gone into the current cut at KSE > support, and I certainly hope it goes in. However, there are a > number of other factors to consider. The right way to get KSE in > 5.0 is to help do the work which is necessary for that to happen, > and not to deliberately misquote people -- as you are pretty > clearly doing in the above. What I explicitly said in the above > message (and which you explicitly deleted) was that KSE should > wait for a later release if the remaining work is not done. If > you have some other opinion, that is fine, but do not reword *my* > opinion to claim that I agree completely with your opinion. It was an asinine reply to an asinine comment, not a deliberate misquotation. > Julian did a lot of good work, all he needs is a few more > developers to help test that work. None of us need a thread > arguing about release dates vs some goals set two years ago. Somehow I see the GOP using that same argument next year concerning the tax-scam... Medicare surplus wiped out, 9 billion into Social Security starting next week... oops, off topic... I agree with you to a point there. The design goals should be met. This isn't a commercial product, and thus I don't see that the argument that the release date should be set in stone is relevant, although it should be close to that which was originally specified. > I "support" the integration of KSE in the sense that I intend to > help test it (on a dual-CPU i386) sometime in the next week. I > do not support a delay of "5.0". I can not test on Alpha, as I > have no Alpha machines. Anyone who wants to prove their support > for KSE in 5.0 should step up and offer to do some of the testing, > etc. Actions will speak louder than any (misquoted) words. Again, I agree, except I still don't understand your dire need for a mad rush to have another "Thanksgiving release" a la 2.0-R. FreeBSD releases should be goal-oriented, not marketing-type oriented. 2.0-R left FreeBSD with reputation damage that took several years to clear up, I would have thought that some had learned from that "stick to the release date" experience. My first experience with -current sprang from that experience [for a while -current was more stable than -RELEASE, on freaking production systems]. It didn't take too long to get -RELEASE stable though, as I recall. Marketing types have a place: Selling RELEASED software and hardware... They should not be the end-all word on ship dates though. Hell, the Pentium 4 was a nice concept until... jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 17: 1:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from msgbas2.cos.agilent.com (msgbas2x.cos.agilent.com [192.25.240.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DD637B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@soco.agilent.com) Received: from msgrel1.cos.agilent.com (msgrel1.cos.agilent.com [130.29.152.77]) by msgbas2.cos.agilent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F39E6A6; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mina.soco.agilent.com (mina.soco.agilent.com [141.121.54.157]) by msgrel1.cos.agilent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F31FB1; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:01:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mina.soco.agilent.com (darrylo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mina.soco.agilent.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3 SMKit7.1.1_Agilent) with ESMTP id RAA18118; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200108280001.RAA18118@mina.soco.agilent.com> To: Mike Smith Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware Reply-To: Darryl Okahata In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:23:49 PDT." <200108260123.f7Q1Nnn22385@mass.dis.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.6) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:01:47 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > It's written for 4.X, but might work for -current (you'll have to > > disable the checks for 4.X, at the very least). You use it like this: > > > > dmesg | scanirq > > It's completely obsoleted by devinfo and pciconf's '-v' flag. > > Sorry. 8) Cool! I didn't want to support it, anyway. ;-) -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@soco.agilent.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 17: 9:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from msgbas1.cos.agilent.com (msgbas1x.cos.agilent.com [192.25.240.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4AE37B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@soco.agilent.com) Received: from msgrel1.cos.agilent.com (msgrel1.cos.agilent.com [130.29.152.77]) by msgbas1.cos.agilent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8520F7C5; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:09:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mina.soco.agilent.com (mina.soco.agilent.com [141.121.54.157]) by msgrel1.cos.agilent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43EC849; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:09:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mina.soco.agilent.com (darrylo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mina.soco.agilent.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3 SMKit7.1.1_Agilent) with ESMTP id RAA18212; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200108280009.RAA18212@mina.soco.agilent.com> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Reply-To: Darryl Okahata In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:34:14 CDT." <3B8AAEC6.7050302@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.6) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:09:20 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Bryant wrote: > FreeBSD is going to be left in the dust unless both the SMPng *AND* KSE proje > cts are integrated into 5.0. Is there some reason why KSE couldn't be integrated ASAP *AFTER* 5.0 is released? [ Personally, I'd like to see it in 5.0, but, with all the qualms that people seem to have, I'm curious as to why it can't be integrated immediately after 5.0 is cut? This way, Julian's MFCs are reduced, and it gives people more time to pound on KSE. ] -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@soco.agilent.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 17:58:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F2B37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:58:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S0w9W06669; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:58:08 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: make world broken in -current Message-ID: <20010827175808.A6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <200108271810.f7RIAth24445@woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108271810.f7RIAth24445@woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com>; from Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:10:55AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:10:55AM -0700, Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com wrote: > Compiling sources cvs'ed this morning (Aug 27th), I get this error: > > cd /auto/roy/dist/pub/FreeBSD/CURRENT/src/usr.bin/file; make build-tools > make: don't know how to make build-tools. Stop > *** Error code 2 Are you sure your src/usr.bin/file/Makefile is up to date? # $FreeBSD: src/usr.bin/file/Makefile,v 1.22 2001/08/17 17:21:38 obrien Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18: 4:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F7C37B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7S14Vs14980; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:04:31 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B8ADEE5.6020903@yahoo.com> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AC358.3020303@yahoo.com> <3B8ADEE5.6020903@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:04:28 -0400 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 6:59 PM -0500 8/27/01, Jim Bryant wrote: >Garance A Drosihn wrote: >>What I explicitly said in the above >>message (and which you explicitly deleted) was that KSE should >>wait for a later release if the remaining work is not done. If >>you have some other opinion, that is fine, but do not reword *my* >>opinion to claim that I agree completely with your opinion. > >It was an asinine reply to an asinine comment, not a deliberate >misquotation. "Asinine replies" seems to be a good description for everything you have said in all of these KSE threads. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18: 5: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BD937B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7S14gs149276; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:04:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B8AD790.1050608@yahoo.com> References: <69957.998948345@critter> <20010827190504.A8647@technokratis.com> <3B8AD790.1050608@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:04:40 -0400 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com, Bosko Milekic From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 6:28 PM -0500 8/27/01, Jim Bryant wrote: >The patches seem relatively benign, and after some basic >immediate testing, they should be committed to -current. >That's all I'm trying to say. Then shut up and help test it. That's what KSE needs, some people who are willing to help out with the work. So far you've been blowing a lot of smoke in these KSE threads, pretending that you support it. Most of that support has been demanding that other people do stuff, instead of any reasoned or intelligent input. Almost everyone else in this thread is at least TRYING to be professional about presenting the options, no matter what their opinion might be. All of them "support" KSE in the sense of wanting to see that work in FreeBSD. They also have a number of other legitimate real-world concerns. If you really supported KSE, then you would do something. Something called 'work', which Julian is very familiar with but which seems foreign to your vocabulary. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18: 5:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CEC37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S15hA06822; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:43 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: Message-ID: <20010827180543.B6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: current@freebsd.org References: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:44:04PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:44:04PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. > it needs people who understand the other architectures to make > the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) Have you even tried compiling this on beast.freebsd.org? You didn't say. Unfortuneatly the burdon is on you to make this work on the Alpha platform before you commit it. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18:18: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E744837B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA76379 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: <20010827180543.B6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actualy peter is most of the way through the alpha support as we speak. I wouldn't know what the alpha looks like from a architecture pov if it came and kicked me.. I did some small parts already but peter just checked in more in P4. On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:44:04PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. > > it needs people who understand the other architectures to make > > the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) > > Have you even tried compiling this on beast.freebsd.org? You didn't say. > > Unfortuneatly the burdon is on you to make this work on the Alpha > platform before you commit it. > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18:29:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DA37B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7S1Tjs40058; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:29:45 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200108280009.RAA18212@mina.soco.agilent.com> References: <200108280009.RAA18212@mina.soco.agilent.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:29:42 -0400 To: Darryl Okahata , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE believers should show up! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:09 PM -0700 8/27/01, Darryl Okahata wrote: > Is there some reason why KSE couldn't be integrated >ASAP *AFTER* 5.0 is released? > >[ Personally, I'd like to see it in 5.0, but, with all the qualms that > people seem to have, I'm curious as to why it can't be integrated > immediately after 5.0 is cut? This way, Julian's MFCs are reduced, > and it gives people more time to pound on KSE. ] In the interests of progress, let us assume for the moment that most of the qualms about KSE could be addressed by more testing of it, and a little more work for non-Intel platforms. Based on that assumption, anyone who is eager for KSE should realize that NOW is the time to step forward and help out with it. If we can get a reasonable amount of testing done in the next two or three weeks, then maybe we could get KSE committed for "5.0", and also get "5.0" released when we expected to release it. I think this would be the ideal outcome. If you have any energy to spare right now, let's put that energy towards the ideal outcome. But NOW is the time to help out, not in late October or November. I have changed the subject for this message, because I am hoping that a more positive subject might get a more positive result. Anyone who does think KSE is worth having for 5.0, should step up and provide Julian with the help needed to address the legitimate concerns which have been mentioned. Julian does not need people descending into a flame-war, he needs people to show up and help out. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18:30:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0C937B40B; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S1UDB07085; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:30:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827183012.C6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: current@FreeBSD.org References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:34:06AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:34:06AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I > know that I am in the minority on this, but wanted to say it anyways. You have my OVERWHELMING support for this position. We still have major problems in -CURRENT and if KSE code hit the tree I only see it leading to finger pointing on who broke what. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18:38: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7BB37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S1c5k07197; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:38:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from julian@elischer.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:48:21PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:48:21PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support for the other > platforms. However I need support from the people DOING > those platforms to go further. For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 18:43:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF0437B405; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S1hDG07242; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:43:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jim Bryant Cc: Julian Elischer , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > > Count my vote as a go-for-it. Blah. You're vote doesn't mean jack in this. Unless you are one actively working on the 5-CURRENT kernel (SMPng specifically), or are funding 5-CURRENT kernel development; you really don't have any right to say "go for it". "Don't write cheques your body can't cash." Quincy Jones's "The Dude". Committing KSE now could easily get in the way of the one person doing SMPng work. Do you really want to jeopardize and slowdown that work? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) Disclaimer: Not speaking for FreeBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19: 1:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B69737B403; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S21ip07509; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:01:44 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827190144.F6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:39:23AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:39:23AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > I wasn't in favor of KSE's in 5.0 at Usenix, but saw that I was in an obvious > minority. I'm still in the minority and realize that and don't expect my > opinions here to make any difference. I just wanted to voice my concerns. I find it distressing that you are the *only* person doing SMPng work, and people aren't giving your opinion a 10x weighting. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) Disclaimer: Not speaking for FreeBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:17:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F53D37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:17:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C6C296ACF2; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:47:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:47:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David O'Brien Cc: Jim Bryant , Julian Elischer , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010828114730.L94210@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:43:13PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 27 August 2001 at 18:43:13 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: >> >> Count my vote as a go-for-it. > > Blah. You're vote doesn't mean jack in this. Be that as it may, this kind of message does mean something, but it's nothing positive. We've had enough nastiness in this area already. If you don't like what Jim's saying, why not just ignore him? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:21:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D6AC37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 02:21:45 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8B0037.1030104@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:21:43 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Bosko Milekic , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons References: <69957.998948345@critter> <20010827190504.A8647@technokratis.com> <3B8AD790.1050608@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 6:28 PM -0500 8/27/01, Jim Bryant wrote: > >> The patches seem relatively benign, and after some basic >> immediate testing, they should be committed to -current. >> That's all I'm trying to say. > > > Then shut up and help test it. That's what KSE needs, > some people who are willing to help out with the work. > > So far you've been blowing a lot of smoke in these KSE > threads, pretending that you support it. Most of that > support has been demanding that other people do stuff, > instead of any reasoned or intelligent input. Almost > everyone else in this thread is at least TRYING to be > professional about presenting the options, no matter > what their opinion might be. All of them "support" KSE > in the sense of wanting to see that work in FreeBSD. > They also have a number of other legitimate real-world > concerns. > > If you really supported KSE, then you would do something. > Something called 'work', which Julian is very familiar > with but which seems foreign to your vocabulary. Ahem... I believe I have said I'm going to be applying the patches. Did you miss that one? As far as the other's concerns, even I said it needs testing before inclusion. I have also offered to test it, is that not good enough for you, or do you just not read well? jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:32: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CCB37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S2Vxl07779; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:31:58 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jim Bryant , Julian Elischer , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827193158.G6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010828114730.L94210@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010828114730.L94210@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:47:30AM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:47:30AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Blah. You're vote doesn't mean jack in this. > > Be that as it may, this kind of message does mean something, but it's > nothing positive. We've had enough nastiness in this area already. > If you don't like what Jim's saying, why not just ignore him? Because I am also trying to make a very important point. And attempt to bring readers into some sense of reality. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:37: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7602237B407 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 02:36:58 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8B03C8.9060603@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:36:56 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Cc: Julian Elischer , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > >>Count my vote as a go-for-it. >> > > Blah. You're vote doesn't mean jack in this. > Unless you are one actively working on the 5-CURRENT kernel (SMPng > specifically), or are funding 5-CURRENT kernel development; you really > don't have any right to say "go for it". > > "Don't write cheques your body can't cash." Quincy Jones's "The Dude". > > Committing KSE now could easily get in the way of the one person doing > SMPng work. Do you really want to jeopardize and slowdown that work? Actually, I'd like to see both projects proceed, but apparently what non-core contributers to FreeBSD think doesn't matter. Maybe all of the VOLUNTEER testers for -current should take your advice and go to NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, or open-Solaris... Maybe their opinions would be better received. As far as opinions are concerned, you have expressed yours, and I kinda hope it doesn't represent that of the entire core team. Opinions were asked for. Testers were asked for. I'm offering both. I don't think when Julian asked for opinions and testers that he was specifically asking core team members only. Julian, if this is not the case, please speak up, and accept my apology for butting in with my opinion, and my offer to take you up on your call for testers. All I did was write in support of getting some promised 5.0 items into 5.0, even offering to test them! Excuuuuuuse me! Shame on us peons for speaking our opinions! jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:52:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D7E37B403; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S2qDE08017; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:52:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jim Bryant Cc: Julian Elischer , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827195213.H6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <3B8B03C8.9060603@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8B03C8.9060603@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:36:56PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:36:56PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > Actually, I'd like to see both projects proceed, but apparently what > non-core contributers to FreeBSD think doesn't matter. It is an issue of effort and practicality. We are not talking about what should be the default window manager to give users maxium FreeBSD enjoyment. Setting up a nice GNOME or KDE default environment is about the same amount of work. And something that is orders upon orders of magnitude less time and complex than SMPng. If I expected you to send me a brand new dual AMD-Athlon machine that would be ridiculous. If I asked you to boot FreeBSD on it and send me the /var/run/dmesg.boot output and how long `make world' took, that would be reasonable. Expectations must be kept in perspective. > Maybe all of the VOLUNTEER testers for -current should take your advice > and go to NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, or open-Solaris... Maybe their > opinions would be better received. I *MY* HO, if all someone does is whine w/o producing patches or good crashdumps, then *I* (only speaking for *me* here) don't mind that one bit. > As far as opinions are concerned, you have expressed yours, and I kinda > hope it doesn't represent that of the entire core team. Not it doesn't. That is why there was a disclaimer on my email and one on this one also. > Opinions were asked for. Testers were asked for. I'm offering both. > > I don't think when Julian asked for opinions and testers that he was > specifically asking core team members only. Julian, if this is not the > case, please speak up, and accept my apology for butting in with my > opinion, and my offer to take you up on your call for testers. Testing the KSE patch and saying it must go into 5.0 are two different things. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 19:58: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEAD37B405; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA76764; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:08:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Jim Bryant Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.org, John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <3B8B03C8.9060603@yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pleas guys, cut it out... Take a copy, run it, beat on it.. let me know if it fails.. thanks.. (p.s. I'll need to put a new patch up because -current has changed.. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 20: 3:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8BD37B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:03:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 4264 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2001 03:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Aug 2001 03:03:11 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010827190144.F6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28-Aug-01 David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:39:23AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: >> I wasn't in favor of KSE's in 5.0 at Usenix, but saw that I was in an >> obvious >> minority. I'm still in the minority and realize that and don't expect my >> opinions here to make any difference. I just wanted to voice my concerns. > > I find it distressing that you are the *only* person doing SMPng work, > and people aren't giving your opinion a 10x weighting. I'm not the only person, and I only get one vote. It's FreeBSD, not jhbBSD. :) (jhbBSD would be fearful, indeed) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 20:35:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2103837B405; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7S3Z4w45117; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: kc5vdj@yahoo.com, julian@elischer.org, jhb@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <3B8A7D66.22469D03@elischer.org> <3B8AA9DF.8020000@yahoo.com> <20010827184313.E6649@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010827203504D.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:35:04 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 47 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This project has always been more than just its core developers, whomever they might be at any one time (and if history has shown us anything, it's that it's a constantly changing cast). This means that anyone is free to chime in with their opinion on any project decision, just as the people doing the work being commented on are free to ignore or implement those suggestions as they see fit. What we don't get to do is violently squelch the opinions of anyone we disagree with and I'm somewhat appalled that you've felt compelled to go this far in your reply - it's really totally contrary to what this project really stands for and if you don't see that, it's time you took a much-needed vacation. If you want to disagree with someone's position, you can state your disagreement directly ("I think this will jeopardize and slow down the SMPng work and I strongly disagree with Jim's suggestion") without calling into question their very right to express an opinion. Nobody's given you that kind of authority and no one likely ever will since censorship and an open development atmosphere are mutually exclusive concepts. For shame, David! - Jordan From: "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:43:13 -0700 > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > > Count my vote as a go-for-it. > > Blah. You're vote doesn't mean jack in this. > Unless you are one actively working on the 5-CURRENT kernel (SMPng > specifically), or are funding 5-CURRENT kernel development; you really > don't have any right to say "go for it". > > "Don't write cheques your body can't cash." Quincy Jones's "The Dude". > > Committing KSE now could easily get in the way of the one person doing > SMPng work. Do you really want to jeopardize and slowdown that work? > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > Disclaimer: Not speaking for FreeBSD, just expressing my own opinion. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 21:19:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E964A37B409; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7S4JDX08920; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:19:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827211913.A8898@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <20010827190144.F6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:03:15PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:03:15PM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > I find it distressing that you are the *only* person doing SMPng work, > > and people aren't giving your opinion a 10x weighting. > > I'm not the only person, and I only get one vote. But you are the leading expert in SMPng, and thus any potential negative impact on the SMPng effort due to too much change at one time. > It's FreeBSD, not jhbBSD. :) > (jhbBSD would be fearful, indeed) Quite likely. :-) -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 22: 4:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2871837B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7S54IM05048 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF9C380F; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:04:18 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010828050418.CCF9C380F@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > Actualy peter is most of the way through the alpha support as we speak. > I wouldn't know what the alpha looks like from a architecture pov > if it came and kicked me.. > I did some small parts already but peter just checked in more in P4. Latest news: The alpha made it to single user... (!). There is still a problem, but I will find that shortly. I have not yet built GENERIC, just my tuned kernel. Things like linux and osf1 compat still need doing. FWIW, the tail: ... Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz ata0-slave: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr ata0-slave: identify failed acd0: CDROM at ata0-master PIO4 Waiting 2 seconds for SCSI devices to settle da0 at ahc0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 da0: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device da0: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da0: 17501MB (35843670 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 2231C) da1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 1 lun 0 da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da1: 17501MB (35843670 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 2231C) Mounting root from ufs:/dev/da0a Enter full pathname of shell or RETURN for /bin/sh: # ls halted CPU 0 halt code = 2 kernel stack not valid halt PC = fffffc0000553020 CPU 0 booting ... "oops" :-) > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 10:44:04PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > This compiles and runs pretty solidly on 386. > > > it needs people who understand the other architectures to make > > > the appropriate changes and send them to me (or check them int P4) > > > > Have you even tried compiling this on beast.freebsd.org? You didn't say. > > > > Unfortuneatly the burdon is on you to make this work on the Alpha > > platform before you commit it. > > > > -- > > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 22:18: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4545D37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA77295; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:26:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: "David O'Brien" Cc: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <20010827211913.A8898@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tha actual impact on John will be minimal at this time. It'll be greater later. On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:03:15PM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > > I find it distressing that you are the *only* person doing SMPng work, > > > and people aren't giving your opinion a 10x weighting. > > > > I'm not the only person, and I only get one vote. > > But you are the leading expert in SMPng, and thus any potential negative > impact on the SMPng effort due to too much change at one time. > > > It's FreeBSD, not jhbBSD. :) > > (jhbBSD would be fearful, indeed) > > Quite likely. :-) > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 22:23:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECC937B407; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7S5N6M05099; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA323906; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: John Baldwin , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <20010827190144.F6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:23:06 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010828052306.5DA323906@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:39:23AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > I wasn't in favor of KSE's in 5.0 at Usenix, but saw that I was in an obvio us > > minority. I'm still in the minority and realize that and don't expect my > > opinions here to make any difference. I just wanted to voice my concerns. > > I find it distressing that you are the *only* person doing SMPng work, > and people aren't giving your opinion a 10x weighting. Also take careful note that we've deliberately gone to a lot of trouble to *not* break John's SMPng proc locking work. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 22:49:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from web11008.mail.yahoo.com (web11008.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2433737B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:49:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andyelf@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010828054921.91084.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.76.104.61] by web11008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:49:21 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:49:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrei Popov Subject: Re: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010827140132.A44372@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:15PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: > > > maybe, but ther's no dsa.c under src/crypto/openssh on ftp mirror > i > > am updating from -- or is it a makefile problem of not picking up > the > > one under openssl? > > There's not supposed to be..it was removed 3 months ago. > > Kris I've added src-secure and src-sys-crypto to /etc/cvsupfile.intl and the build proceded w/o error (had only src-crypto there before). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 22:52:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5AC37B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24721; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B3183.708F007C@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:52:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Tancsa Cc: Jonathan Lemon , current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] References: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010827102227.0574d240@marble.sentex.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Tancsa wrote: > >fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem > >0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 > >fxp0: *** DISABLING DYNAMIC STANDBY MODE IN EEPROM *** > >fxp0: New EEPROM ID: 0x49a0 > >fxp0: EEPROM checksum @ 0xff: 0xe441 -> 0xe443 > >fxp0: *** PLEASE REBOOT THE SYSTEM NOW FOR CORRECT OPERATION *** What exactly is "Dynamic Standby Mode"? What's being lost here, when it is disabled, instead of being handled as the card manufacturer expects the OS to handle it? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23: 3:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from cage.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0569337B401; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by cage.simianscience.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id f7S63lg20308; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.sentex.net (fcage [192.168.0.2]) by cage.simianscience.com (8.11.6/8.11.5av) with ESMTP id f7S63g920299; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:03:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010828020210.032dc0b8@192.168.0.12> X-Sender: mdtancsa@192.168.0.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:03:41 -0400 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] Cc: Jonathan Lemon , current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3B8B3183.708F007C@mindspring.com> References: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010827102227.0574d240@marble.sentex.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-10 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:52 PM 8/27/2001 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >Mike Tancsa wrote: > > >fxp0: port 0xc400-0xc43f mem > > >0xd5001000-0xd5001fff irq 11 at device 8.0 on pci1 > > >fxp0: *** DISABLING DYNAMIC STANDBY MODE IN EEPROM *** > > >fxp0: New EEPROM ID: 0x49a0 > > >fxp0: EEPROM checksum @ 0xff: 0xe441 -> 0xe443 > > >fxp0: *** PLEASE REBOOT THE SYSTEM NOW FOR CORRECT OPERATION *** > > What's being lost >here, when it is disabled, instead of being handled as the >card manufacturer expects the OS to handle it? From my perspective, negative functionality is being lost. There is a nice comment in the source code explaining what it is... * Enable workarounds for certain chip revision deficiencies. * * Systems based on the ICH2/ICH2-M chip from Intel have a defect * where the chip can cause a PCI protocol violation if it receives * a CU_RESUME command when it is entering the IDLE state. The * workaround is to disable Dynamic Standby Mode, so the chip never * deasserts CLKRUN#, and always remains in an active state. * * See Intel 82801BA/82801BAM Specification Update, Errata #30. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23: 4: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733BF37B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21535; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B3477.18E10DA4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:04:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: References: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> <15242.37206.54444.140501@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew Gallatin wrote: > I'd really appreciate it if you could make the mechanical changes > required to get it to the point where it at least compiles on alpha > using beast.freebsd.org. At that point, the people on -alpha should be > willing to test your patch and help fix any problems that come up. It has been pointed out that the stumbling block is ~10 lines of Akpha assembly language code that Julian is asking that someone familiar with the Alpha write. Julian is not an Alpha assembly language guru. In order to make these changes, he would have to do a lot of work, whereas someone who knew Alpha assembly language could do them very quickly. I think asking him to do this without knowledge of register save/restore and allocation plocies of the FreeBSD Alpha port is rather unfair. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23:21:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEECD37B412; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21731; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B3887.4E810E34@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:21:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Dillon Cc: Robert Watson , John Baldwin , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <200108271943.f7RJhRr24275@earth.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon wrote: > Just for myself, I am seriously considering just throwing the whole lot > (-current, that is) away and starting over from -stable. I spent 20 hours > last weekend trying to unwind even part of the VM system from Giant, and > failed utterly. I'd love to see the KSE stuff in -stable, I think it > might even be a better fit. > > I am seriously considering this because I think we made a huge mistake > throwing away the spl*() mechanism in -current, as a means of getting out > from under the Giant lock paradigm quickly and partitioning the problem > in a manner that allows subsystems to be worked on independantly. And > I don't see any way to get it back. The spl*() mechanism already > partitions the major subsystems that *need* to operate concurrently: > I/O, interrupts, and the network stack. We would be able to work on > major subsystems independantly and we would be able to debug things much > more easily. -current as it currently stands is very nearly undebuggable. > > I've been thinking about this for the last few months... I am still > thinking about it. I haven't made a decision yet. I think if KSEs go > into -current I would stick with it, but if KSEs do not go into -current > I don't see much of a point, -current will have wholely gone off in a > direction that I don't believe in (rather then just mostly gone off). I'm similarly hesitant about -current; I didn't really like the SPL changes, which were capable of being converted to a lock per mask, and getting moderately parallel code rather cheaply... actually, I'm running my network stack almost totally without NETISR (see the Van Jacobsen papers), and expect to get rid of it completely in the very near future; this eliminates the real splimp induced contention remaining, making it safe to treat SPL's as masks of bit locks to hold. I'm also not too enamored about the interrupt threads idea, which I've argued before -- it has always boiled down to the fact "it was available at the time", without respect to the actual merits of the approach. If I have to schedule, I'm already dead, when it comes to a receiver livelock, since I'll just be taking interrupts until I run out of mbufs, and then keep taking them forever, while dropping the packets that I no longer have mbufs for, as the clients retransmit me to death. FWIW, I've worked on several FreeBSD based embedded systems products (Whistle was sold to IBM on the basis of one of them), and have always used "down rev" code to ensure stability. I doubt very much if I will go to 5.0 when/if it becomes available, because the SMP code as is is not addressing anything but small numbers of CPUs, and seems to be ignoring issues that would lead to large numbers of CPUs and/or migration of processes to other nodes within a large cluster. I don't really have faith that it will run 80% faster on an 8-way system than it will on a 4-way, and I expect the lack of interrupt lock-down will make it not as sutable as a uniprocessor system for network processing when PCIX hits general release (8Mbit/S burst rate capable). Count me as another much more interested in the KSE work than the SMP work that has occurred so far (with a few exceptions, like some of the experimental code Alfred has discussed at work). I'd also like to see a port of the KSE stuff to -stable, most particularly if we are not going to see it in 5.0, but even then, it would be useful. I look at the SMPng stuff as "research which has yet to prove itself", and would push that further off into the future, or just keep the HEAD as a research branch, and bring in KSE's on the 4.x BRANCH. Switching to using P4 lines Of Developement before the the SMPng started would sure have saved us a lot of pain here... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23:24: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8916837B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:23:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 13041 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2001 06:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Aug 2001 06:23:57 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010828050418.CCF9C380F@overcee.netplex.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Peter Wemm Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28-Aug-01 Peter Wemm wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: >> Actualy peter is most of the way through the alpha support as we speak. >> I wouldn't know what the alpha looks like from a architecture pov >> if it came and kicked me.. >> I did some small parts already but peter just checked in more in P4. > > > Latest news: The alpha made it to single user... (!). There is still > a problem, but I will find that shortly. > > I have not yet built GENERIC, just my tuned kernel. Things like linux and > osf1 compat still need doing. > > > FWIW, the tail: > ... > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > ata0-slave: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr > ata0-slave: identify failed > acd0: CDROM at ata0-master PIO4 > Waiting 2 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > da0 at ahc0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 > da0: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device > da0: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing > Enabled > da0: 17501MB (35843670 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 2231C) > da1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 1 lun 0 > da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device > da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing > Enabled > da1: 17501MB (35843670 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 2231C) > Mounting root from ufs:/dev/da0a > Enter full pathname of shell or RETURN for /bin/sh: ># ls > > halted CPU 0 > > halt code = 2 > kernel stack not valid halt > PC = fffffc0000553020 You overflowed your kernel stack. You can use srm to dump the memory at that address (I can't remember the stupid SRM syntax for the life of me though) and wade through it looking for kernel-text addresses to figure out the stack trace. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23:25:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp010.mail.yahoo.com (smtp010.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D64937B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:25:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 06:25:10 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B8B3945.5020101@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:25:09 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.org, John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Like I said... Count me in... Julian Elischer wrote: > Pleas guys, > cut it out... > > Take a copy, run it, beat on it.. > let me know if it fails.. > > thanks.. > > (p.s. I'll need to put a new patch up because -current has changed.. :-) jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23:25:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF3B37B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4B35766DE9; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:25:30 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Andrei Popov Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: buildworld fails in libssh on -CURRENT Message-ID: <20010827232530.A51705@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010827140132.A44372@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010828054921.91084.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010828054921.91084.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>; from andyelf@yahoo.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:49:21PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:49:21PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: >=20 > --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:15PM -0700, Andrei Popov wrote: > >=20 > > > maybe, but ther's no dsa.c under src/crypto/openssh on ftp mirror > > i > > > am updating from -- or is it a makefile problem of not picking up > > the > > > one under openssl? > >=20 > > There's not supposed to be..it was removed 3 months ago. > >=20 > > Kris >=20 > I've added src-secure and src-sys-crypto to /etc/cvsupfile.intl and > the build proceded w/o error (had only src-crypto there before). Cool, glad to hear it's resolved. Kris --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7izlZWry0BWjoQKURAp+EAJ9UWjuLd2wQoMY2rart/KeoniefCwCg+sHm 9nh4WR2uYar02VCN4NTreuk= =ZTw3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 27 23:31:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F10137B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12302; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B3ADE.9EF3C323@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:31:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Sean Chittenden , Jim Bryant , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <66544.998934042@critter> <20010827133112.B79584@rand.tgd.net> <3B8AB039.7090705@yahoo.com> <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I would very much like to see the KSE work in "5.0", but I still > would rather delay that for a later release instead of delaying > "5.0" for another three or four months. What about the fact that the KSE work was agreed to be committed if finished in August at the Usenix FreeBSD kernel developement meeting? The schedule was known then, too... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BBB37B405; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7S7C7o13211; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B4471.28047A50@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:12:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Jim Bryant , current@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , Bosko Milekic Subject: Re: KSE kernel comparissons References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not to put too fine of a point on it, and hopefully, this won't be taken as a personal attack, but... [ Mr. X ] wrote: > [ Mr. W ] wrote: > > As I recall, *total* "functionality" of the subsystems wasn't promised for > > 5.0-R, but the infrastructure *was* promised. I expect > > you are reponding to my post in the other thread... > > Grr, do you develop software? Hmm, well, no matter what you do, > I'm sure we can come up with an example of having two enormous > changes being made at the same time. It's painful, it's more > painful than doing them one at a time. You've repeatedly implied that you think that large things can not be worked on by seperate teams and successfully integrated. This goes against nearly everything I have ever done in my more than two decade career as a paid software engineer. My first paid project was in 1979 in high school, in 6502 assembly, working on a team with two other people. Things _can_ be concurrently developed successfully; work was done by CSRG and Genentech on the BSD 4.4 code, while at the same time the University of Guelph was writing the NFSv3 implementation, and John Heidemann was authoring the VFS stacking system. All of these things were successfully brought into the BSD 4.4 code base, and released in the BSD 4.4-Lite and 4.4-Lite2 releases, all in a short time frame, with a small group (about 6) academic programmers managing the integration (not even including the more minor contributions). This isn't rocket science -- but it _is_ computer science. > Right now the patchset is indeed benign, but trying to split > up KSE's at the same time as the kernel is being ripped apart > to be locked down is going to cause much frustration with > things breaking due to weird combinations of things that > worked fine in each other's local trees. If this is the problem you see, it is greatly exaggerated here by these statements. First off, no one has suggested that the KSE work be taken further within the main source tree. Secondly, the SMPng work is taking place on the HEAD branch; this was arguably a mistake, in 20/20 hindsight brought on by the current discussion. As a result, we have a "some pigs are more equal than others" situation: by virtue of being on the HEAD, SMPng is in a position to disrupt all other work. This is bad: it doesn't even have a proven track record with addressing the issues it was supposedly intended to address... CPU scaling to even a moderate number of CPUs, without an exponential fall-off between N and N+1 CPUs, as N becomes a large single digit integer, and the ability to utilize the additional CPU power for real work. Note that this latter was supposed to be addressed by providing a new threads subsystem. I don't think there is any intent to work on splitting KSEs up in the HEAD; I think the KSE developers agree with the rest of us, that the HEAD is too unstable for general developement not directly related to SMPng. However, now that it is _relatively_ stable, it is a _VERY GOOD_ time to synchronize other projects which are _ALSO_ relatively stable, tag, and let them diverge into instability again, if they are destined to do so. Realize that Julian has already stated that he will re-snapshot into P4 the code after the merge, and work on "the dreaded KSE splitting" there. > Why in the world would people protest putting KSE in 6.0? Maybe it has something to do with the general consensus of the committers and -core membership attending Usenix that if Julian could finish the work by August, that it would be committed for the 5.0 release? I can imagine that it must be nerve-wracking, not being given the promised go-ahead, while at the same time people are going ahead and committing SMPng changes which might destabilize HEAD and send it spinning out of control again, away from a safe synchronization point. > If a task takes X amount of effort, and you only have Y < X amount > of effort to expend, then you aren't going to achieve the task. > You can't change that by decreeing that this feature adn that > feature will be in FreeBSD at such and such a date because Jordan > said so 2 years ago. Do you realize how long it has taken > commercial OS's with several full-time _paid_ employees to achieve > the same tasks we are doing in SMPng and KSE? 4 years, form the first introduction of paged memory management to full SMP and kernel threading, for SVR4.0.2, coming from SVR3; so going back to the original SMP code from October of 1995, FreeBSD has had 6 years to do what the commercial folks did in 4, in an almost impossibly political climate, with a source tree divided into three parts so as to try to preclude cross subsystem changes -- changes of the type necessary to get the work done. Without the USL organizational handicap, I think that Art Sabsovitch, Steve Baumel, and crew could probably have done the work in 2 years (3 at the outside). And there were only about 10 of them, total... PS: If task A takes X amount of effort, and task B takes Y amount of effort, and you only have Z < (X + Y) amount of effort to expend, and you are using a volunteer workforce, then they will work on whatever the hell they want to work on, and you aren't going to be able to schedule task A to complete before task B based on wishful thinking or source tree storm trooper tactics. > Perhaps I'm being uber-paranoid about this. *sigh* That'd be my vote... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:28:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB31E37B407; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7S7SUo16064; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B4848.F33A3A27@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:29:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:48:21PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support for the other > > platforms. However I need support from the people DOING > > those platforms to go further. > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with > nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) Remember that Julian is freshly married... Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:37:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD1437B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA77888 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B488F.16919EF9@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:30:23 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: new KSE patches Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG as current moves we need to keep up (or it doesn't patch) I just put up a new patch which includes Peter's Alpha stuff Note nwfs is not yet converted.. coment it out of any config files. (also NCP it runs on, and SMBFS) -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:45:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E0737B405; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02014; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B4C51.7FE21EE8@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:46:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Tancsa Cc: Jonathan Lemon , current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] References: <20010826101102.A96709@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010827102227.0574d240@marble.sentex.ca> <5.1.0.14.0.20010828020210.032dc0b8@192.168.0.12> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Tancsa wrote: > > What's being lost > >here, when it is disabled, instead of being handled as the > >card manufacturer expects the OS to handle it? > > From my perspective, negative functionality is being lost. There is a > nice comment in the source code explaining what it is... [ ... actual chipset bug ... ] Ah, thanks! I think I'll drag this into my local 4.3 based source tree, when I get some time. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:49:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1E237B405; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:49:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07385; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B4D3E.6109D96A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:50:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Peter Wemm , current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > halted CPU 0 > > > > halt code = 2 > > kernel stack not valid halt > > PC = fffffc0000553020 > > You overflowed your kernel stack. You can use srm to dump the > memory at that address (I can't remember the stupid SRM syntax > for the life of me though) and wade through it looking for > kernel-text addresses to figure out the stack trace. From my reading of the x86 source, one of the things Julian did was seperate out the allocation of stack pages, using a defined value. This may be as simple as putting a larger number in your config file... I don't know what the Alpha default was before the change, but I do know that it runs 8K pages, which if KPAGES is in 4K chunks, might have reduced your stack size on you... Not brilliant, but something to try... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 0:57:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E52C37B406; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA77980; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B4CEF.B61E7CC8@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:49:03 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <3B8B4848.F33A3A27@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:48:21PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support for the other > > > platforms. However I need support from the people DOING > > > those platforms to go further. > > > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. > > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with > > nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) > > Remember that Julian is freshly married... > > Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... Hey cool down guys... > > -- Terry -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 1:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8585B37B407; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.233.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.233]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04533; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8B537D.328CC342@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:17:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <3B8B4848.F33A3A27@mindspring.com> <3B8B4CEF.B61E7CC8@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > I don't WANT to commit without more testing and more support > > > > for the other platforms. However I need support from the > > > > people DOING those platforms to go further. > > > > > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. > > > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with > > > nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) > > > > Remember that Julian is freshly married... > > > > Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... > > Hey cool down guys... ??? He had a ":-)" and I had a joke in response... I don't think either of us were anything other than joking... ...just in case: 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 2: 7:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.99.75.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58137B40B; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.plaut.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id LAA02410; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:07:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by nihil.plaut.de (8.11.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f7SA7BB01758; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:07:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:07:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: Jonathan Chen Cc: Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h In-Reply-To: <20010827153039.A15164@enterprise.spock.org> Message-ID: <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: ... > The fix I committed this morning should get around these issues. Please > tell me if you run into any more problems. This works (now) for supported card like my ep0 (3COM...) but reboots for unsupported cards like my sandisk-smartmedia etc.. Is this by intention? My /etc/pccard.conf entries for this cards are: # Non-brand Compact Flash Card(64MB) card " " " " config 0x1 "ata4" 11 insert logger -t pccard:$device -s Compact Flash Card inserted remove logger -t pccard:$device -s Compact Flash Card removed card "Apacer" "CF" config 0x1 "ata4" 11 insert logger -t pccard:$device -s Compact Flash Card inserted remove logger -t pccard:$device -s Compact Flash Card removed Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger ^.*Plaut.*$, IT, R/3 Basis, GPS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 3:24: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B55137B406; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7SANwM06188; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BA8380C; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: <3B8B4D3E.6109D96A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:23:58 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010828102358.39BA8380C@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > > halted CPU 0 > > > > > > halt code = 2 > > > kernel stack not valid halt > > > PC = fffffc0000553020 > > > > You overflowed your kernel stack. You can use srm to dump the > > memory at that address (I can't remember the stupid SRM syntax > > for the life of me though) and wade through it looking for > > kernel-text addresses to figure out the stack trace. > > >From my reading of the x86 source, one of the things Julian did > was seperate out the allocation of stack pages, using a defined > value. > > This may be as simple as putting a larger number in your config > file... I don't know what the Alpha default was before the change, > but I do know that it runs 8K pages, which if KPAGES is in 4K > chunks, might have reduced your stack size on you... > > Not brilliant, but something to try... > > -- Terry Actually, this was the result of not correctly setting up the new argument to the fork trampoline code. We now have a fully viable Alpha + KSE kernel as of about 5 minutes ago: [3:19am]~/ffp4-102> p4 describe -du 1155 Change 1155 by peter@peter_up2000 on 2001/08/28 03:12:57 Really solve the alpha KSE problem. This was submitted from an alpha running the KSE kernel in multiuser mode! Affected files ... ... //depot/projects/kse/sys/alpha/alpha/vm_machdep.c#5 edit Differences ... ==== //depot/projects/kse/sys/alpha/alpha/vm_machdep.c#5 (text+ko) ==== @@ -210,7 +210,7 @@ (u_int64_t)fork_return; /* s0: a0 */ td2->td_pcb->pcb_context[1] = (u_int64_t)exception_return; /* s1: ra */ - td2->td_pcb->pcb_context[2] = (u_long) p2; /* s2: a1 */ + td2->td_pcb->pcb_context[2] = (u_long)td2; /* s2: a1 */ td2->td_pcb->pcb_context[7] = (u_int64_t)fork_trampoline; /* ra: assembly magic */ #ifdef SMP fork_trampoline() changed from a 'struct proc *p' to 'struct thread *td' argument and got missed here. The box is now running quite happily.. All that remains is to get the rest of the alpha kernel to compile, not just the subset that I actually use. :) And then comes tidying up the loose ends. :-] Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 3:58:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.spock.org (cm-24-29-85-81.nycap.rr.com [24.29.85.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973EB37B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@enterprise.spock.org) Received: (from jon@localhost) by enterprise.spock.org serial EF600Q3T-B7F; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 06:57:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jon)$ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 06:57:54 -0400 From: Jonathan Chen To: Michael Reifenberger Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h Message-ID: <20010828065753.B807@enterprise.spock.org> References: <20010827153039.A15164@enterprise.spock.org> <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: telnet/1.1x In-Reply-To: <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil>; from root@nihil.plaut.de on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 12:07:10PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 12:07:10PM +0200, Michael Reifenberger wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: > ... > > The fix I committed this morning should get around these issues. Please > > tell me if you run into any more problems. > This works (now) for supported card like my ep0 (3COM...) but reboots for > unsupported cards like my sandisk-smartmedia etc.. Is this by intention? > > My /etc/pccard.conf entries for this cards are: No, that is not by intention, nor can I tell what is wrong. I've tried sticking in unknown cards without ill effect. What would be helpful is if you supplied at least the panic message, and a backtrace when the panic occues. Or if this is a spontaneous reboot (which I really doubt), the dmesg from a verbose boot up to the point of reboot would be a first step... Also, /etc/pccard.conf is not used with newcard. You are using newcard, right? -Jon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 5: 2:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from matrix.eurocontrol.fr (matrix.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.254.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F1137B403; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 05:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@eurocontrol.fr) Received: from caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.51.214]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr", Issuer CN "CA ITM" (not verified)) by matrix.eurocontrol.fr (Postfix/TLS) with ESMTP id 6D2DB213D; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:02:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: by caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (Postfix/TLS, from userid 1193) id D05658; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:02:24 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Current Users' list Cc: iedowse@freebsd.org, mckusick@freebsd.org Subject: Unconnected files problem Message-ID: <20010828140224.B99849@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have a script that generates index for all my mail messages (using glimpse). Sometimes, the disk is full because it has some rather big temporary files (and I have a lot of mail). It seems that we may have a softupdate-related (that's a guess from me) problem because some of these temporaty files end up as unconnected to any directory but link count is still one and they still takes space. The last time fsck ran on the filesystem, it gave me back more than 60000 (!!) fragments (cf the following: -=-=- Aug 23 12:21:38 caerdonn root: /dev/da0s1g: Reclaimed: 0 directories, 22 files, 60424 fragments Aug 23 12:21:38 caerdonn root: /dev/da0s1g: 10295 files, 387087 used, 73408 free (1048 frags, 9045 blocks, 0.2% fragmentation) -=-=- lsof doesn't show them so they're not open by any process. The mtime of the files are exactly when the glimpseindex command is run. We know that SU has some issues when a filesystem is full but this is quite a problem because as you can see below, I'm losing a lot of space till the next reboot... UNREF FILE I=1081 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=523 MTIME=Aug 28 00:46 2001 CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=18498 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=230665 MTIME=Aug 26 08:05 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=18508 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=11225707 MTIME=Aug 23 20:02 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=18530 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=28322748 MTIME=Aug 24 20:09 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=18573 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=28326193 MTIME=Aug 25 20:09 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=18575 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=18684173 MTIME=Aug 24 20:08 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=19204 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=13771800 MTIME=Aug 26 08:05 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no UNREF FILE I=19353 OWNER=roberto MODE=100600 SIZE=18679309 MTIME=Aug 25 20:08 2001 RECONNECT? no CLEAR? no ** Phase 5 - Check Cyl groups 10223 files, 446324 used, 74595 free (1019 frags, 9197 blocks, 0.2% fragmentation) fsdb (inum: 2)> inode 19353 current inode: regular file I=19353 MODE=100600 SIZE=18679309 MTIME=Aug 25 20:08:18 2001 [0 nsec] CTIME=Aug 25 20:08:18 2001 [0 nsec] ATIME=Aug 25 20:08:11 2001 [0 nsec] OWNER=roberto GRP=staff LINKCNT=1 FLAGS=0 BLKCNT=8ec0 GEN=4c2a6c10 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/ITM -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 5.0-CURRENT #46: Wed Jan 3 15:52:00 CET 2001 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 7:26:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002A937B405; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28236; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.11.3/8.9.1) id f7SEPVV44559; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:25:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15243.43483.126633.103480@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:25:31 -0400 (EDT) To: Peter Wemm Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: In-Reply-To: <20010828102358.39BA8380C@overcee.netplex.com.au> References: <3B8B4D3E.6109D96A@mindspring.com> <20010828102358.39BA8380C@overcee.netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wemm writes: > > Actually, this was the result of not correctly setting up the > new argument to the fork trampoline code. > > We now have a fully viable Alpha + KSE kernel as of about > 5 minutes ago: Excellent. Thank you, Peter. Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 7:30:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6BE37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19058; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13261; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13256; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:29:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:29:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Garrett Wollman Cc: kc5vdj@yahoo.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <200108272044.f7RKihx24003@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD is going to be left in the dust unless both the SMPng *AND* > > KSE projects are integrated into 5.0. > > I care about having a system that works well and does what I ask of > it. What the Linux horde is doing is of little concern to me, and I > suspect the same goes for a number of other long-time FreeBSDers. > Well, I've only been using FreeBSD for 4 or 5 years, and I don't really care what the "linux horde" is doing, but I would like to see FreeBSD surpass the other x86 OS's in terms of performance as well as "uptime" Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 7:31:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0E6F37B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@mail.newgold.net) Received: (qmail 2686 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Aug 2001 16:44:41 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:44:41 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: John Baldwin Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010827164441.A2005@NewGold.NET> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.19i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:34:06AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I I definitely agree about this, 5.x is going to be enough of a major change as it is, and confusing _everything_ with even more big changes can't do any good in the short term, and would probably make KSE (and other things) a big hassle to the point of where they wouldn't be of any use until 6.x anyway. But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure I'll get smacked for it. /joseph To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 7:32: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F6437B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19265; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13937; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13933; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:31:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:31:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Sean Chittenden Cc: Jim Bryant , Poul-Henning Kamp , Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I have one system that I've been maintaining/updating since the > > > 2.X days and I feel it's time to nuke it and start over. +1 for a > > > non-smp system and SMP system. > > > > > > That said, I think the value of having both KSE and SMPng in 5.0 > > > is HUGE and I think there is probably a large number of people that > > > would be willing to endure kernel panics, dumps, etc. because the value > > > (in terms of technological accomplishment and saleability in the > > > corporate space) would be absolutely worth the bumpy road. -CURRENT > > > isn't worth tracking unless the dumps, bugs, etc are all going toward > > > both SMPng and KSE. > > > > > > Hey, anyone running -current without a tape drive attached with a daily dump schedule is either insane, a masochist, or both. > > > > Read my post from this morning about the mysterious filesystem corruption I had this morning... Kudos to Justin Gibbs for fixing > > EOM detection [let's get his scsi_sa.c patches committed ASAP]!!! > > Thanks for the heads up! Fortunately I have a few -STABLE > systems that I can dump to and that host all of my email/development. > ;) I'll probably go and pick up another 40+GB HD just for the extra > head-room. > > > > If there are grave concerns about having KSE and SMPng in 5.X, > > > then why not push back the release date? The value far outweighs the > > > extra months needed to get it finished and out the door, but what do I > > > know, I'm just a quiet kernel by standard making an observation. -sc > > > > > > Good idea. > > Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line at the > expense of some very important and very fundamental enhancements to > FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core to talk about/discuss, > but I bet that if a poll was put on the homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint > hint) asking about this, you'd get an overwhelming response to see > KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a poll you might even pick up some more testers > given the exposure (hint hint). -sc > If it's testers you want, submit a story on slashdot heh heh, I know a lot of BSDers that are converts from linux that want to test stuff, but only read slashdot for their computer news. Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 7:56:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA2037B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24511; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA20474; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20470; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:55:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:55:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Darryl Okahata , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE believers should show up! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I for one can test it on an alpha (I'm borrowing from chuckr@freebsd.org) as soon as my DSL gets installed ;-) Ken On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 5:09 PM -0700 8/27/01, Darryl Okahata wrote: > > Is there some reason why KSE couldn't be integrated > >ASAP *AFTER* 5.0 is released? > > > >[ Personally, I'd like to see it in 5.0, but, with all the qualms that > > people seem to have, I'm curious as to why it can't be integrated > > immediately after 5.0 is cut? This way, Julian's MFCs are reduced, > > and it gives people more time to pound on KSE. ] > > In the interests of progress, let us assume for the moment that most > of the qualms about KSE could be addressed by more testing of it, > and a little more work for non-Intel platforms. > > Based on that assumption, anyone who is eager for KSE should realize > that NOW is the time to step forward and help out with it. If we > can get a reasonable amount of testing done in the next two or three > weeks, then maybe we could get KSE committed for "5.0", and also > get "5.0" released when we expected to release it. > > I think this would be the ideal outcome. If you have any energy to > spare right now, let's put that energy towards the ideal outcome. > But NOW is the time to help out, not in late October or November. > > I have changed the subject for this message, because I am hoping > that a more positive subject might get a more positive result. > Anyone who does think KSE is worth having for 5.0, should step up > and provide Julian with the help needed to address the legitimate > concerns which have been mentioned. Julian does not need people > descending into a flame-war, he needs people to show up and help out. > > -- > Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu > Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 8:32:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (hunkular.glarp.com [199.117.25.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC1D37B408; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Received: from hunkular.glarp.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hunkular.glarp.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7SFWM833600; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:32:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from huntting@hunkular.glarp.com) Message-Id: <200108281532.f7SFWM833600@hunkular.glarp.com> To: Mike Tancsa Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Jonathan Lemon , current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:03:41 EDT." <5.1.0.14.0.20010828020210.032dc0b8@192.168.0.12> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:32:22 -0600 From: Brad Huntting Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From my perspective, negative functionality is being lost. There is a > nice comment in the source code explaining what it is... > * Enable workarounds for certain chip revision deficiencies. > * > * Systems based on the ICH2/ICH2-M chip from Intel have a defect > * where the chip can cause a PCI protocol violation if it receives > * a CU_RESUME command when it is entering the IDLE state. The > * workaround is to disable Dynamic Standby Mode, so the chip never > * deasserts CLKRUN#, and always remains in an active state. > * > * See Intel 82801BA/82801BAM Specification Update, Errata #30. Will the card be able to function in suspend mode and do Wake-on-LAN correctly after this? brad To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 8:43:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C378737B403; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f7SFi8j38466; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:44:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:44:08 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brad Huntting Cc: Mike Tancsa , tlambert2@mindspring.com, Jonathan Lemon , current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fxp SCB timeout problems [FIX] Message-ID: <20010828104408.E2228@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010828020210.032dc0b8@192.168.0.12> <200108281532.f7SFWM833600@hunkular.glarp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200108281532.f7SFWM833600@hunkular.glarp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:32:22AM -0600, Brad Huntting wrote: > > > From my perspective, negative functionality is being lost. There is a > > nice comment in the source code explaining what it is... > > > * Enable workarounds for certain chip revision deficiencies. > > * > > * Systems based on the ICH2/ICH2-M chip from Intel have a defect > > * where the chip can cause a PCI protocol violation if it receives > > * a CU_RESUME command when it is entering the IDLE state. The > > * workaround is to disable Dynamic Standby Mode, so the chip never > > * deasserts CLKRUN#, and always remains in an active state. > > * > > * See Intel 82801BA/82801BAM Specification Update, Errata #30. > > Will the card be able to function in suspend mode and do Wake-on-LAN > correctly after this? It should still do wake-on-lan, although the fxp driver doesn't support that right now - it doesn't appear to be a useful feature. Powersave transitions (D0 -> D3) should also still work. What the fix does is prevent the board from reducing power in idle state, which is a subset of D0. (Intel has D0-active and D0-idle, or some such). -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 8:45:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tgd.net (rand.tgd.net [64.81.67.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1115A37B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sean@mailhost.tgd.net) Received: (qmail 90478 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Aug 2001 15:45:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:45:12 -0700 From: Sean Chittenden To: Kenneth Wayne Culver Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: News + call for testers regarding KSE + future inclusion of SMPng... Message-ID: <20010828084512.D83939@rand.tgd.net> References: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uXxzq0nDebZQVNAZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from "culverk@wam.umd.edu" on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at = 10:31:18AM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --uXxzq0nDebZQVNAZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line at the > > expense of some very important and very fundamental enhancements to > > FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core to talk about/discuss, > > but I bet that if a poll was put on the homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint > > hint) asking about this, you'd get an overwhelming response to see > > KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a poll you might even pick up some more testers > > given the exposure (hint hint). -sc > >=20 > If it's testers you want, submit a story on slashdot heh heh, I know a lot > of BSDers that are converts from linux that want to test stuff, but only > read slashdot for their computer news. 1) By Friday, I'm hoping to having -current + KSE patch on my boxes (money where mouth =3D=3D Good Thing(tm)). 2) Is there any reason to _not_ submit a story on Slashdot, Maximum BSD, Daemon News, BSD Today, etc... I couldn't help but think the exposure and extra testers that would come of this would be a bad thing. = =20 Is there any documentation in terms of how some stranger could do this (from a vanilla system)? At any rate, post a link to the instructions in the story and what more could you ask for? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it'd be good exposure for both Jullian's work (even though KSE's will be largely unused in 5.0) =20 and FreeBSD. -sc PS The submitted story would make it clear that this is -CURRENT (not -STABLE) and would include all of the necessary warnings/disclaimers. --=20 Sean Chittenden --uXxzq0nDebZQVNAZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjuLvIcACgkQn09c7x7d+q2GVgCfTMsnUgtrAvFnKV0lU3Zbmr3F LoUAoJ4lWxk7ej/GxQzInU3eMylrjhkh =TM37 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uXxzq0nDebZQVNAZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 9:12:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72C1937B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f7SGCdA45942 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:12:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7SGCdf02521 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:12:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200108281612.f7SGCdf02521@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: More SIG4s during make world Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:12:38 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Just a quick note to say that my -current box has started dropping cores during make world again. I have a kernel from August 11 that works ok, and had one from August 18 that was causing sig 4 at random places. I accidently overwrote my Aug 18 kernel.old, but Aug 25, 27 and 28 are still dropping cores all over the place. My machine config has changed slightly since this happened in May, It's now a P4/1.7GHz with 384Mb RAM. As before, I can give people access to the box if required - although unfortunately I haven't got enough room in swap for a kernel core any more (oops!) -- but that can be fixed if required. If anybody has any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them, otherwise I'll try rolling the sources forward from the 11th to try to discover when the breakage occurred. Cheers. -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 9:45:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.disney.com (mail.disney.com [204.128.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402B437B409 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com) Received: from Hermes10.corp.disney.com (hermes10.corp.disney.com [153.7.110.102]) by mail.disney.com (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with SMTP id f7SGiPe26903 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.30.50.1] by hermes.corp.disney.com with ESMTP for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:44:17 -0700 Received: from plio.fan.fa.disney.com (plio.fan.fa.disney.com [153.7.118.2]) by pecos.fa.disney.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7SGqRs11225 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.fan.fa.disney.com (mercury.fan.fa.disney.com [153.7.119.1]) by plio.fan.fa.disney.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA09709; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com) Received: from [172.30.228.110] by mercury.fan.fa.disney.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:45:18 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Jim Pirzyk Organization: Walt Disney Feature Animation To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: make world broken in -current Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:44:56 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <200108271810.f7RIAth24445@woodstock.fan.fa.disney.com> <20010827175808.A6649@dragon.nuxi.com> In-Reply-To: <20010827175808.A6649@dragon.nuxi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 27 August 2001 05:58 pm, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:10:55AM -0700, Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com wrote: > > Compiling sources cvs'ed this morning (Aug 27th), I get this error: > > > > cd /auto/roy/dist/pub/FreeBSD/CURRENT/src/usr.bin/file; make build-tools > > make: don't know how to make build-tools. Stop > > *** Error code 2 > > Are you sure your src/usr.bin/file/Makefile is up to date? > > # $FreeBSD: src/usr.bin/file/Makefile,v 1.22 2001/08/17 17:21:38 obrien Exp > $ Ding! I have version 1.21. So this leads me to my next question and that is there anything wrong with anoncvs.FreeBSD.org? I am getting these messages when I try to get a new cvs version: cvs [checkout aborted]: reading from server: Connection reset by peer cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any) But there are no messages above. - JimP -- --- @(#) $Id: dot.signature,v 1.10 2001/05/17 23:38:49 Jim.Pirzyk Exp $ __o Jim.Pirzyk@disney.com ------------- pirzyk@freebsd.org _'\<,_ Senior Systems Engineer, Walt Disney Feature Animation (*)/ (*) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 9:57:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C940B37B409; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA79918; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8BCCF1.92B7BC90@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:55:13 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <20010827164441.A2005@NewGold.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joseph Mallett wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:34:06AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I > > I definitely agree about this, 5.x is going to be enough of a major change as > it is, and confusing _everything_ with even more big changes can't do any > good in the short term, and would probably make KSE (and other things) a big > hassle to the point of where they wouldn't be of any use until 6.x anyway. > > But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure I'll get smacked for it. > > /joseph *smack* -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 9:58: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD83737B406; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA79899; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8BCC28.5AC9A68@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:51:52 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Chittenden Cc: Kenneth Wayne Culver , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: News + call for testers regarding KSE + future inclusion of SMPng... References: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <20010828084512.D83939@rand.tgd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sean Chittenden wrote: > > > > Seriously, is there any reason to hold to a time line at the > > > expense of some very important and very fundamental enhancements to > > > FreeBSD? I suppose that's something for -core to talk about/discuss, > > > but I bet that if a poll was put on the homepage of FreeBSD.org (hint > > > hint) asking about this, you'd get an overwhelming response to see > > > KSE/SMPng in 5.X. With a poll you might even pick up some more testers > > > given the exposure (hint hint). -sc > > > > > If it's testers you want, submit a story on slashdot heh heh, I know a lot > > of BSDers that are converts from linux that want to test stuff, but only > > read slashdot for their computer news. > > 1) By Friday, I'm hoping to having -current + KSE patch on my boxes > (money where mouth == Good Thing(tm)). > > 2) Is there any reason to _not_ submit a story on Slashdot, Maximum > BSD, Daemon News, BSD Today, etc... I couldn't help but think the > exposure and extra testers that would come of this would be a bad thing. > Is there any documentation in terms of how some stranger could do this > (from a vanilla system)? At any rate, post a link to the instructions in > the story and what more could you ask for? > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it'd be good exposure for > both Jullian's work (even though KSE's will be largely unused in 5.0) > and FreeBSD. -sc remember , that this is not KSE threading, just milestone 2 (run with current logic, with a broken up proc structure) lots of distance to go yet... > > PS The submitted story would make it clear that this is -CURRENT > (not -STABLE) and would include all of the necessary > warnings/disclaimers. > > -- > Sean Chittenden > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10: 1: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tgd.net (rand.tgd.net [64.81.67.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D30CB37B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sean@mailhost.tgd.net) Received: (qmail 91067 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Aug 2001 17:01:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:01:03 -0700 From: Sean Chittenden To: Julian Elischer Cc: Kenneth Wayne Culver , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: News + call for testers regarding KSE + future inclusion of SMPng... Message-ID: <20010828100103.F83939@rand.tgd.net> References: <20010827134902.A80313@rand.tgd.net> <20010828084512.D83939@rand.tgd.net> <3B8BCC28.5AC9A68@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B8BCC28.5AC9A68@elischer.org>; from "julian@elischer.org" on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at = 09:51:52AM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > remember , that this is not KSE threading, just milestone 2 > (run with current logic, with a broken up proc structure) > lots of distance to go yet... Yup... but mozilla's been posting mile stones for years to get=20 interest. Seems like KSE and SMPng are good candidates for the same PR. = =20 -sc --=20 Sean Chittenden --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjuLzk4ACgkQn09c7x7d+q1W9wCgl+tfv5H7emLOyHW9jEV+5E5C W5cAn0L2wgf84il7tvNsaxq0Gztv/qgG =j3rn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10: 3: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from leviathan.inethouston.net (leviathan.inethouston.net [66.64.12.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1489937B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwcjr@inethouston.net) Received: by leviathan.inethouston.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1EC2910F430; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:03:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:03:04 -0500 From: "David W. Chapman Jr." To: current@freebsd.org Subject: diskcheckd Message-ID: <20010828120303.D98852@leviathan.inethouston.net> Reply-To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Mail-Followup-To: current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What are the current plans for diskcheckd in src? I have it ported in sysutils/diskcheckd with minor testing needed. -- David W. Chapman Jr. dwcjr@inethouston.net Raintree Network Services, Inc. dwcjr@freebsd.org FreeBSD Committer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10:24:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F0A5437B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@mail.newgold.net) Received: (qmail 1211 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Aug 2001 17:24:47 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:24:47 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010828172447.A1192@NewGold.NET> References: <3B89DF04.F6A250F9@elischer.org> <20010827164441.A2005@NewGold.NET> <3B8BCCF1.92B7BC90@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B8BCCF1.92B7BC90@elischer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.19i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:55:13AM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > Joseph Mallett wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:34:06AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > > Just to get this out in the public: I for one think 5.x has enough changes in > > > it and would like for KSE to be postponed to 6.0-current and 6.0-release. I > > > > I definitely agree about this, 5.x is going to be enough of a major change as > > it is, and confusing _everything_ with even more big changes can't do any > > good in the short term, and would probably make KSE (and other things) a big > > hassle to the point of where they wouldn't be of any use until 6.x anyway. > > > > But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure I'll get smacked for it. > > > > /joseph > > > *smack* Note that I wasn't really posting this comment this late in the thread, but my MTA decided to queue it for an obscenely long time. Sorry. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10:34:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8BF37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:34:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7SHYEo03072; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:34:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:34:14 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! Message-ID: <20010828103414.D97741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <3B8B4848.F33A3A27@mindspring.com> <3B8B4CEF.B61E7CC8@elischer.org> <3B8B537D.328CC342@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8B537D.328CC342@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 01:17:01AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 01:17:01AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. > > > > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with > > > > nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) > > > > > > Remember that Julian is freshly married... > > > Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... > > Hey cool down guys... > ??? > He had a ":-)" and I had a joke in response... I don't think > either of us were anything other than joking... I don't know why you think that. I was, and am, 110% serious. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10:36:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197F637B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7SHahY34060; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108281736.f7SHahY34060@earth.backplane.com> To: Brian Somers Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More SIG4s during make world References: <200108281612.f7SGCdf02521@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Hi, : :Just a quick note to say that my -current box has started dropping :cores during make world again. : :I have a kernel from August 11 that works ok, and had one from August :18 that was causing sig 4 at random places. I accidently overwrote :my Aug 18 kernel.old, but Aug 25, 27 and 28 are still dropping cores :all over the place. : :My machine config has changed slightly since this happened in May, :It's now a P4/1.7GHz with 384Mb RAM. : :As before, I can give people access to the box if required - although :unfortunately I haven't got enough room in swap for a kernel core any :more (oops!) -- but that can be fixed if required. : :If anybody has any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them, otherwise :I'll try rolling the sources forward from the 11th to try to discover :when the breakage occurred. : :Cheers. :-- :Brian : http://www.freebsd-services.com/ I took a look at the diff between those dates and there were a lot of changes. If you have the time it may well be that the best way to home in on the problem is to do a date-based cvs checkout to try to narrow down the date range where the problems started to occur. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 10:40: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D429837B407; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:40:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bandix@looksharp.net) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 2229B40EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E589DBAEB; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:40:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: David O'Brien Cc: Terry Lambert , Julian Elischer , Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! In-Reply-To: <20010828103414.D97741@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <20010828133929.H91047-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: >On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 01:17:01AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Julian Elischer wrote: >> > > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. >> > > > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, so others with >> > > > nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) >> > > >> > > Remember that Julian is freshly married... >> > > Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... >> > Hey cool down guys... >> ??? >> He had a ":-)" and I had a joke in response... I don't think >> either of us were anything other than joking... > >I don't know why you think that. I was, and am, 110% serious. I'm sure you guys will really endear yourselves to Julian's new wife if you send him a time-consuming new geektoy. ;-) -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 11:14:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC6F37B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7SIETX34454; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm posting this as an aid to everyone doing freebsd-current development and testing and may not realize how easy it is to setup a development environment. The number one thing is: Don't put the CVS tree or source code on the -current box itself, except for testing purposes. This is what I do: * On my -STABLE box I cvsup the CVS tree nightly (/home/ncvs) from cron: stable> /usr/local/bin/cvsup -g -r 20 -L 2 -h cvsupXXX.freebsd.org /usr/share/examples/cvsup/cvs-supfile * On my -STABLE box I use 'cvs checkout' and 'cvs update' as appropriate to keep a -current source hierarchy up to date. In my case: stable> cd /FreeBSD stable> mkdir FreeBSD-current stable> cd FreeBSD-current stable> cvs -d /home/ncvs checkout src I do the cvs updates manually, depending on what I am testing: stable> cd /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src stable> cvs update * On my -STABLE box I build the -current world. I usually try to build it -DNOCLEAN but if that fails I just rebuild it from scratch. NOTE!!! DO NOT ACCIDENTLY TRY TO INSTALL THE -CURRENT WORLD ON YOUR STABLE BOX!!! stable> cd /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src stable> make -DNOCLEAN -j 10 buildworld * On my -STABLE box I build the -current kernel. Again I try to use -DNOCLEAN to reduce [re]compilation times, but just build it from scratch too some times. NOTE!!! DO NOT ACCIDENTLY TRY TO INSTALL THE -CURRENT KERNEL ON YOUR STABLE BOX!!! stable> cd /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src stable> make [-DNOCLEAN] buildkernel KERNCONF=BLAHBLAH * On my -CURRENT box I install via *** READ ONLY *** NFS mounts. The setup for this is typically: current> mount stable:/FreeBSD /FreeBSD current> mount stable:/usr/obj /usr/obj current> rm -rf /usr/src current> ln -s /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src /usr/src Actual installation of world: current> cd /usr/src current> make installworld Actual installation of kernel: current> cd /usr/src current> make installkernel KERNCONF=BLAHBLAH Note that the development environment is on your -stable machine... that is where you are doing the builds. The only thing you need to do on your -current box is to install them via NFS. * To test the -CURRENT box, i.e. running buildworld on the -current box as a test, I simply unmount /usr/obj and do a buildworld. The source is still NFS mounted from the -STABLE box, but the actual compile runs on the -current box and the results are 'throw away' (meaning that it doesn't screw up the development environment sitting on my -stable machine). current> umount /usr/obj current> cd /usr/src current> /usr/bin/time make -j 30 buildworld ----- KEEPING AN EMERGENCY BACKUP KERNEL When you have a -current kernel that is able to successully installworld and installkernel, and seems to be relatively crash free, you should make a backup of it so you can boot from it. I usually do this: current> cp /kernel /kernel.bak I do not rely on 'kernel.old' since multiple installkernel's will overwrite it. Also, don't rely on KLD's since the backup kernel may not be compatible with the most recently installed module directory. ---- FIREWALL SHOULD BE OPEN BY DEFAULT ON THE CURRENT MACHINE If your -current kernel config is turning on firewall support, aka IPFIREWALL, you should also make the filter permissive by default, aka IPFIREWALL_DEFAULT_TO_ACCEPT. If you don't do this and your (backup) kernel and the ipfw binary get out of sync, you won't be able to use ipfw to open up holes for NFS and such and your backup kernel will be S.O.L. ---- NFS-BASED SOURCE AND NFS-BASED /USR/PORTS ENVIRONMENT STABLE MACHINE "/etc/exports": The export contains non-proprietary data and is read-only, so it is fairly safe to export it generally. If you do not have anything proprietary installed in /usr (e.g. in /usr/local), you can export /usr -alldirs to allow clients to pickup /usr/obj and /usr/ports. /FreeBSD -ro -maproot=root: -network 10.0.0.0 -mask 255.0.0.0 /usr -ro -alldirs -maproot=root: -network 10.0.0.0 -mask 255.0.0.0 # if /usr/obj a separate mount pt on your box #/usr/obj -ro -maproot=root: -network 10.0.0.0 -mask 255.0.0.0 STABLE MACHINE "/usr/ports" topology. This allows you to export /usr/ports read-only via NFS and still allow each client to build and install its own ports: stable> cd /usr/ports stable> rm -rf distfiles stable> ln /usr/ports.distfiles distfiles stable> mkdir /usr/ports.distfiles CURRENT MACHINE "/etc/fstab" entries (note that /usr itself is local disk) stable:/FreeBSD /FreeBSD nfs ro 0 0 stable:/usr/ports /usr/ports nfs ro 0 0 stable:/usr/obj /usr/obj nfs ro 0 0 CURRENT MACHINE "/etc/make.conf" entries: # location for ports temporary files, since /usr/ports is mounted # read-only. WRKDIRPREFIX=/usr/ports.tmp CURRENT MACHINE "/usr/ports" topology. Mounting /usr/ports read-only from the -stable box, you need only create two directories: current> mkdir /usr/ports.distfiles current> mkdir /usr/ports.tmp -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 11:31: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF0A37B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) id f7SIUvS34660; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200108281830.f7SIUvS34660@earth.backplane.com> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Addendum to recommended dev/test env for -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh, two addendums. /FreeBSD in my example is a big parition on my -stable box, not sitting on the root partition obviously. I recommend at least 3 GB. In my case I actually have the CVS tree itself, a broken-out -current source tree, a broken-out -stable source tree, NetBSD tree, etc... on it. It's a great place to put source trees that I want to NFS export. If you intend to use it in that manner I'd make the parition even larger - at least 6G. Also, for NFS-based development to work the *absolute path* to the -current source must be the same on the -stable machine as it is on the -current machine. Hence in my case, /FreeBSD is a real partition on my -stable machine (not a softlink) and I mount it was /FreeBSD on the current machine. Using softlinks to glue things together probably will not work, because the buildworld/buildkernel system uses the absolute path 'pwd' of the actual source directory to determine how to build/access the object directory structure. On my -stable box, this is what my development topology looks like: apollo:/FreeBSD> l FreeBSD-3.x/ NetBSD/ initmach.sh FreeBSD-4.x/ bench/ FreeBSD-CVS/ diff.mfs FreeBSD-current/ diff.mkfs apollo:/FreeBSD> ls -la /usr/src lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 24 May 28 04:03 /usr/src -> /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-4.4 (to compile -current I manually cd into /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src) I usually break ports out via CVS too, so I in fact do not export /usr/ports but instead make it a softlink into /FreeBSD/... But most people just cvsup /usr/ports directly. /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-4.x/... is, of course, a cvs checkout of the RELENG_4 tag. FreeBSD-3.x/ is of course the RELENG_3 tag, and -current is of course the HEAD branch. I also keep handy-dandy scripts in /FreeBSD, like 'initmach.sh', which initializes a machine from scratch, and benchmarks and stuff. apollo:/usr> ls -la ports lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 30 May 28 04:03 ports -> /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/ports On my -current box the softlink look like this (with /FreeBSD mounted via a read-only NFS mount): test3:/home/dillon> cd /usr test3:/usr> ls -la src lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 28 Aug 5 18:15 src -> /FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 11:35:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B2537B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bandix@looksharp.net) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 70DD140F3; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7FBBB05; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Matt Dillon Cc: Subject: Re: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current In-Reply-To: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: <20010828142545.N91047-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: > I'm posting this as an aid to everyone doing freebsd-current development > and testing and may not realize how easy it is to setup a development > environment. I found this very helpful Matt, thank you. I would only add one thing that I do in addition to some of these NFS tricks. The only machines at home which I presently keep hard drives in are my file server, firewall, and desktop. Everything else netboots off of the file server. This is very convenient because I can keep multiple NFS roots around and simply edit a text file, HUP a daemon, and power cycle a machine to alter which OS and/or OS revision it's running. Switched fast ethernet is more than enough to keep up with this on the 10 or so machines I have up and running at any given time. It works quite well. I will say though, on the subject of NFS, that one of the things that I'm almost annoyed enough with to start hacking on is the BSDs lack of autofs support. Linux now has a kickass autofs automounter. The BSDs are, to the best of my knowledge, the only OS left without one. Am-utils (the contrib source for our amd) has been kicking around autofs support for a while now but still does not appear to have anything release quality. It's a nuisance to have to run special scripts to parse your auto.* maps into stuff amd can understand in an NIS environment. -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 11:36: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tgd.net (rand.tgd.net [64.81.67.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E1E4037B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sean@mailhost.tgd.net) Received: (qmail 91680 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Aug 2001 18:36:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:36:01 -0700 From: Sean Chittenden To: Matt Dillon Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current Message-ID: <20010828113601.A91575@rand.tgd.net> References: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com>; from "dillon@earth.backplane.com" on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at = 11:14:29AM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:14:29AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > Delivered-To: chittenden.org-sean-freebsd-current@chittenden.org > Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Matt Dillon > To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current > List-ID: > List-Archive: (Web Archive) > List-Help: (List Instructio= ns) > List-Subscribe: > List-Unsubscribe: > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk >=20 > I'm posting this as an aid to everyone doing freebsd-current developm= ent > and testing and may not realize how easy it is to setup a development > environment. Extremely helpful and well written, thanks. Is this posted any place in a publicly available form such as a tutorial or article? -sc --=20 Sean Chittenden --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjuL5JEACgkQn09c7x7d+q2ZiQCfeJ2Al4Iv7GKcNTu1ANCGJg/n CXUAn1lCj19hbQL4e4o++bD8Bi2fDyfV =B7y/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 12:26:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664A937B403; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.129.165.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.129.165]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7SJQSB25741; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8BF08E.86EDFFAC@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:27:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Julian Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up! References: <20010827183805.D6649@dragon.nuxi.com> <3B8B4848.F33A3A27@mindspring.com> <3B8B4CEF.B61E7CC8@elischer.org> <3B8B537D.328CC342@mindspring.com> <20010828103414.D97741@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 01:17:01AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > > For $500-$600 I can put you on a 500MHz 21164 Alpha. > > > > > I've invested $2500 from my own pocket in Alpha hardware, > > > > > so others with nice Bay Area saleries can too. :-) > > > > > > > > Remember that Julian is freshly married... > > > > Maybe he can be sent an Alpha as a wedding present... > > > Hey cool down guys... > > ??? > > He had a ":-)" and I had a joke in response... I don't think > > either of us were anything other than joking... > > I don't know why you think that. I was, and am, 110% serious. OK. I'll just point out how naieve it is to believe that a newlywed can make a major purchase decision for a toy that will only benefit one partner, and do so through the auspice of having him spend time with it instead of her, and put him in a foul mood, swearing at the little box, while learning a new assembly language for a processor Intel is about to End-Of-Life... 8-) 8-) PS: Peter seems to have done the work anyway, so no matter how serious you were, the objection on behalf of the Alpha is not itself an objection any longer... PPS: Amazing, how much of the grunt work is shouldered by the married Australians arouns here... Cheers, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 12:52:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts7.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D874537B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.92.160.216]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010828195219.FDWV3327.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:52:19 -0400 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF52A191A for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 86BD120B46; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:52:03 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current Message-ID: <20010828155203.B618@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: The Anarcat , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com> <20010828142545.N91047-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="H1spWtNR+x+ondvy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010828142545.N91047-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: >=20 [snip of diskless comments] You wouldn't happen to have sample configs around, wouldn't you? :) =20 > I will say though, on the subject of NFS, that one of the things that > I'm almost annoyed enough with to start hacking on is the BSDs lack of > autofs support. Linux now has a kickass autofs automounter. The BSDs > are, to the best of my knowledge, the only OS left without one. Wrong. > Am-utils (the contrib source for our amd) has been kicking around autofs > support for a while now but still does not appear to have anything > release quality.=20 Am-utils, while being a quite complex piece of software, does fullfil the task of "autofs". It does need extra configuration compared to Linux's autofs though. For the record, I automount my cdr, cdrom, zip and floppy drives (both in ufs and msdos mode) using this configuration files: ---8<--- Cut here [amd.mnt] -----8<-------- cdr type:=3Dcdfs;fs:=3D/cdr;dev:=3D/dev/cd0c;opts:=3Dro,nodev,nosuid cdrom type:=3Dcdfs;fs:=3D/cdrom;dev:=3D/dev/acd0c;opts:=3Dro,node= v,nosuid fat type:=3Dpcfs;fs:=3D/fat;dev:=3D/dev/fd0;opts:=3Dnosuid,nodev=20 flp type:=3Dufs;fs:=3D/flp;dev:=3D/dev/fd0;opts:=3Dnosuid,nodev zip type:=3Dufs;fs:=3D/zip;dev:=3D/dev/afd0;opts:=3Dnosuid,nodev zap type:=3Dpcfs;fs:=3D/zap;dev:=3D/dev/afd0s4;opts:=3Dnosuid,nodev ---8<--- Cut here [amd.mnt] -----8<-------- ---8<--- Cut here [amd.conf] -----8<-------- [ global ] =20 normalize_hostnames =3D no print_pid =3D no restart_mounts =3D yes #auto_dir =3D /n log_file =3D /var/log/amd log_options =3D all #debug_options =3D all plock =3D no=20 cache_duration =3D 6 =20 dismount_interval =3D 20=20 selectors_on_default =3D yes # config.guess picks up "sunos5" and I don't want to edit my maps yet os =3D sos5 # if you print_version after setting up "os", it will show it. print_version =3D no =20 map_type =3D file search_path =3D /etc/amdmaps:/usr/lib/amd:/usr/local/AMD/lib:/etc browsable_dirs =3D yes [ /mnt ] map_name =3D amd.mnt ---8<--- Cut here [amd.conf] -----8<-------- I think I will dare opening a pr making this default config files. :) > It's a nuisance to have to run special scripts to > parse your auto.* maps into stuff amd can understand in an NIS > environment. I am not sure I completely understand that, but you must expect having to reconfigure stuff to accomodate new software... I guess you want to port autofs to fbsd, eh? :) A. --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Pour information voir http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjuL9mIACgkQttcWHAnWiGdZxgCfVHTvWXqU+qQWMBl68Y/ki9Pm XCYAoIyDv6oLSbSxO4J7eAMnc86a2yeT =yDdc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 13:36:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from meta.lo-res.org (meta.lo-res.org [195.58.189.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217BD37B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaron@meta.lo-res.org) Received: from localhost (aaron@localhost) by meta.lo-res.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f7SKcjo51172 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:38:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from aaron@meta.lo-res.org) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:38:45 +0200 (CEST) From: aaron To: current@freebsd.org Subject: openbios Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! I have been wondering if fbsd people would like to move into the openbios.org direction? Well, at least I for myself would _dream_ of booting my laptop and have X running in 10 seconds :)) I am asking because AFAIK the openbios guys replace the standard bios calls with their own code (kernel, whatever). So would this acutally be possible in fbsd? Are there any calls to bios routines or is everything coded by hand? sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I was just to curious... aaron. --- pub 1024D/6110C44D 2001-01-19 Aaron Kaplan sig 6110C44D 2001-01-19 Aaron Kaplan sub 2048g/EB2C5163 2001-01-19 [expires: 2002-01-19] sig 6110C44D 2001-01-19 Aaron Kaplan >> get key from http://pgp.ai.mit.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 14: 6:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.99.75.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E419837B408; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.plaut.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id XAA08545; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:06:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by nihil.plaut.de (8.11.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f7SN5UD00757; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:05:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:05:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: Jonathan Chen Cc: Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h In-Reply-To: <20010828065753.B807@enterprise.spock.org> Message-ID: <20010829005736.A491-200000@nihil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1000306097-999039930=:491" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-1000306097-999039930=:491 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: ... > No, that is not by intention, nor can I tell what is wrong. I've tried > sticking in unknown cards without ill effect. What would be helpful is if > you supplied at least the panic message, and a backtrace when the panic > occues. Or if this is a spontaneous reboot (which I really doubt), the > dmesg from a verbose boot up to the point of reboot would be a first > step... The boot message is attached in boot.txt. The backtrace is following tomorrow ( hopefully after building a new kernel) > > Also, /etc/pccard.conf is not used with newcard. You are using newcard, > right? Yes I know. Yes. The entries where just examples of the cards I would like to get going :-) BTW: Is there a equivalence to /etc/pccard.conf in NEWCARD where I can direct a card-entry to a specific driver? 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bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 24DAA81D01; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:10:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:10:38 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: aaron Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: openbios Message-ID: <20010828161038.N81307@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from aaron@meta.lo-res.org on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 10:38:45PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * aaron [010828 15:37] wrote: > > Hi! > > I have been wondering if fbsd people would like to move into the > openbios.org direction? Well, at least I for myself would _dream_ of > booting my laptop and have X running in 10 seconds :)) > > I am asking because AFAIK the openbios guys replace the standard bios > calls with their own code (kernel, whatever). So would this acutally be > possible in fbsd? Are there any calls to bios routines or is everything > coded by hand? > > sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I was just to curious... I'm pretty sure openbios just aims to be a replacement for PC-BIOSes, as long as it's a drop in replacement FreeBSD should run just fine on top of it, there shouldn't be any modifications needed to be done to FreeBSD. -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 14:19:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from meta.lo-res.org (meta.lo-res.org [195.58.189.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F77537B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaron@meta.lo-res.org) Received: from localhost (aaron@localhost) by meta.lo-res.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f7SLLcQ51445; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:21:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from aaron@meta.lo-res.org) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:21:38 +0200 (CEST) From: aaron To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: openbios In-Reply-To: <20010828161038.N81307@elvis.mu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * aaron [010828 15:37] wrote: > > > > Hi! > > > > I have been wondering if fbsd people would like to move into the > > openbios.org direction? Well, at least I for myself would _dream_ of > > booting my laptop and have X running in 10 seconds :)) > > > > I am asking because AFAIK the openbios guys replace the standard bios > > calls with their own code (kernel, whatever). So would this acutally be > > possible in fbsd? Are there any calls to bios routines or is everything > > coded by hand? > > > > sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I was just to curious... > > I'm pretty sure openbios just aims to be a replacement for PC-BIOSes, > as long as it's a drop in replacement FreeBSD should run just fine > on top of it, there shouldn't be any modifications needed to be done > to FreeBSD. yes, but AFAIK they will replace standard BIOS calls with their own abstraction layer/calls. Now if fbsd uses some "well known" BIOS calls which differ in the openbios abstraction layer then it wont run. so the question boils down to: is there some black magic bios call accessing code in the kernel somewhere (which might break then)? aaron. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 14:23:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C67D37B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 19FAA66D2A; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:23:40 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: aaron Cc: Alfred Perlstein , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: openbios Message-ID: <20010828142339.A61193@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010828161038.N81307@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from aaron@meta.lo-res.org on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:21:38PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:21:38PM +0200, aaron wrote: > yes, but AFAIK they will replace standard BIOS calls with their own > abstraction layer/calls. Now if fbsd uses some "well known" BIOS calls > which differ in the openbios abstraction layer then it wont run. so the > question boils down to: is there some black magic bios call accessing code > in the kernel somewhere (which might break then)? I think the bottom line is that if you want FreeBSD to work optimally with this thing, the burden is on you to help make it so. Kris --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7jAvbWry0BWjoQKURAon7AKDN88YViV5SXSMPF66oW3tOuH0LJACgwABg 0P3pE3QqBPc7pB3FeeUVDH4= =2Nt1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 14:55:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 241B837B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkf@zydeco.research.bell-labs.com) Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.2.10]) by crufty; Tue Aug 28 17:51:04 EDT 2001 Received: from zydeco.research.bell-labs.com (zydeco.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.120.150]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7SLsYl29420 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from jkf@localhost) by zydeco.research.bell-labs.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15501; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:54:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Fellin Message-Id: <200108282154.RAA15501@zydeco.research.bell-labs.com> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: linux threads and fclose lock problem Cc: mflaster@research.bell-labs.com, eran@research.bell-labs.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following test program hangs on current from 8/20/2001. The program hangs in the fprintf to the function testThread(), instead of running to completion. If the call in main to fclose() of an unrelated file descriptor is removed the program runs to completion. >From tracing code, it appears that fclose.c locks the file, does some stuff, and then *tries* to unlock the file. But while _flockfile is called, _funlockfile is *not*. (The source for fclose.c calls FUNLOCKFILE(fp) - don't know where FUNLOCKFILE is defined.) So, a lock gets left open. Because these are recursive locks, further I/Os from the same thread are OK, but any IO from a different thread block forever. If the fclose is removed, the program works fine or setting the value of __isthreaded to zero. #include #include extern int __isthreaded; void *testThread(void *param) { const char *fn = "/tmp/file_to_write"; FILE *fo = fopen(fn, "w"); printf("testThread __isthreaded = %d\n", __isthreaded); printf ("Writing to file %s\n", fn); fprintf(fo, "Test line\n"); printf ("Finished writing to file %s\n", fn); return NULL; } int main() { const char *fn = "/tmp/foobar"; FILE *fi = fopen(fn, "r"); printf("main __isthreaded = %d\n", __isthreaded); if (!fi) { printf ("%s must exist for this test to work\n", fn); exit(0); } printf ("We opened %s, fd of %d\n", fn, fi->_file); fclose(fi); printf("main after fclose __isthreaded = %d\n", __isthreaded); printf ("File is closed\n"); pthread_t tid; pthread_create(&tid, NULL, testThread, (void*)NULL); pthread_join(tid, NULL); } Here's the output: ----------- main __isthreaded = 1 We opened /tmp/foobar, fd of 3 3, 671604288, 1 - Locking fd main after fclose __isthreaded = 1 File is closed testThread __isthread = 1 Writing to file /tmp/file_to_write 5, 3208641568, 2 - Locking fd 671604288 - File is locked by another thread File is locked: 671644044, 3208642568 Did insert: 671644044 About to suspend:671644044 ----------- Changing the value of __isthreaded to 0 in main produces the expected output: ----------- main __isthreaded = 0 We opened /tmp/foobar, fd of 3 main after fclose __isthreaded = 0 File is closed testThread __isthread = 0 Writing to file /tmp/file_to_write Finished writing to file /tmp/file_to_write ----------- In the default case fclose leaves a lock open so when the other thread attempts file/IO it is suspended waiting for the other thread to release the lock. However the other thread doesn't know it has a lock. So, a lock gets left open. Because these are recursive locks, further I/Os from the same thread are OK, but any IO from a different thread block forever. This is with linuxthreads 2.2.3_1. The compile lines are: g++ -ofclose-test.o -c -g -D_THREAD_SAFE \ -I/usr/local/include/pthread/linuxthreads \ -D_PTHREADS -D__USE_UNIX98 fclose-test.cpp g++ -o fclose-test.exe fclose-test.o -g -L/usr/local/lib -llthread -llgcc_r To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 14:56:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F1637B445 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id B8F8D81D01; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:56:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:56:47 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: aaron Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: openbios Message-ID: <20010828165647.O81307@elvis.mu.org> References: <20010828161038.N81307@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from aaron@meta.lo-res.org on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:21:38PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * aaron [010828 16:19] wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > * aaron [010828 15:37] wrote: > > > > > > I have been wondering if fbsd people would like to move into the > > > openbios.org direction? Well, at least I for myself would _dream_ of > > > booting my laptop and have X running in 10 seconds :)) > > > > > > I am asking because AFAIK the openbios guys replace the standard bios > > > calls with their own code (kernel, whatever). So would this acutally be > > > possible in fbsd? Are there any calls to bios routines or is everything > > > coded by hand? > > > > > > sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I was just to curious... > > > > I'm pretty sure openbios just aims to be a replacement for PC-BIOSes, > > as long as it's a drop in replacement FreeBSD should run just fine > > on top of it, there shouldn't be any modifications needed to be done > > to FreeBSD. > > yes, but AFAIK they will replace standard BIOS calls with their own > abstraction layer/calls. Now if fbsd uses some "well known" BIOS calls > which differ in the openbios abstraction layer then it wont run. so the > question boils down to: is there some black magic bios call accessing code > in the kernel somewhere (which might break then)? There shouldn't be much except perhaps the VESA stuff. As I said, if they implement a proper BIOS that can be used for windows/dos/linux then we shouldn't have a problem running on it. If we do have a problem running on it then it's most likely an openbios issue, not a FreeBSD issue. -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 15: 7:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8B837B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bandix@looksharp.net) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id DA6DB411F; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D684DBAF1; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: The Anarcat Cc: Subject: Re: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current In-Reply-To: <20010828155203.B618@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20010828162911.X91047-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, The Anarcat wrote: >On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > >> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: >> >[snip of diskless comments] > >You wouldn't happen to have sample configs around, wouldn't you? :) >> Am-utils (the contrib source for our amd) has been kicking around autofs >> support for a while now but still does not appear to have anything >> release quality. > >Am-utils, while being a quite complex piece of software, does fullfil >the task of "autofs". It does need extra configuration compared to >Linux's autofs though. For the record, I automount my cdr, cdrom, zip >and floppy drives (both in ufs and msdos mode) using this configuration >files: I do believe you have misunderstood. My complaint is that am-utils requires the type of config files you pasted here. Most every other unix operating system, Linux and the commercial unices, now comes with an autofsd/automountd which uses the auto.master/auto.* config file format which requires far less configuration and is *interoperable* in a heterogenous environment. On each of the SGIs and the Linux box here I have an /etc/auto.master that does little more than +auto.master which includes a NIS map that works everywhere. This is not nearly as easy with the standard BSD amd. -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 15: 9: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591E637B503 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20329; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200108281814.f7SIETX34454@earth.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Matt Dillon Subject: RE: My Recommended Development/Testing environment for -current Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28-Aug-01 Matt Dillon wrote: > I'm posting this as an aid to everyone doing freebsd-current development > and testing and may not realize how easy it is to setup a development > environment. Nice stuff and close to what I do (I just share a development sys tree over NFS now). One thing I do in regards to kernels is this, /boot/kernel/kernel is a clean kernel, i.e. from a clean current source, not any of my development trees. Kernels in development trees use stuff like this: makeoptions KERNEL=smpng in their kernel config files so I have /boot/smpng/kernel, /boot/test/kernel, /boot/preempt/kernel, etc. for my development tree kernels. This avoids needing to keep a kernel.good around, as /boot/kernel/kernel is always ok. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 15:22:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.spock.org (enterprise.spock.org [208.171.236.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAEE637B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@enterprise.spock.org) Received: (from jon@localhost) by enterprise.spock.org serial EF600Q3T-B7F; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:22:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jon)$ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:22:33 -0400 From: Jonathan Chen To: Michael Reifenberger Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h Message-ID: <20010828182233.C807@enterprise.spock.org> References: <20010828065753.B807@enterprise.spock.org> <20010829005736.A491-200000@nihil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: telnet/1.1x In-Reply-To: <20010829005736.A491-200000@nihil>; from root@nihil.plaut.de on Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 01:05:30AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 01:05:30AM +0200, Michael Reifenberger wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: > ... > > No, that is not by intention, nor can I tell what is wrong. I've tried > > sticking in unknown cards without ill effect. What would be helpful is if > > you supplied at least the panic message, and a backtrace when the panic > > occues. Or if this is a spontaneous reboot (which I really doubt), the > > dmesg from a verbose boot up to the point of reboot would be a first > > step... > > The boot message is attached in boot.txt. > The backtrace is following tomorrow ( hopefully after building a new kernel) That won't be necessary. I now know what causes the panic. Actually, that's not really important. There's something strange going on with the second non-ep card insertion. Is this a memory card you're trying to use? -Jon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 16:16:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D0837B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7SNG6D06866; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:16:06 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Julian Elischer , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: Message-ID: <20010828161606.C6407@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> <15242.37206.54444.140501@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <3B8B3477.18E10DA4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B8B3477.18E10DA4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:04:39PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:04:39PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > It has been pointed out that the stumbling block is ~10 lines > of Akpha assembly language code that Julian is asking that > someone familiar with the Alpha write. > > Julian is not an Alpha assembly language guru. In order to > make these changes, he would have to do a lot of work, whereas > someone who knew Alpha assembly language could do them very > quickly. Yes, but the proper approach would be: Dear Alpha guys, I've compiled all the C code on the Alpha, but I know the xyz.S file needs changing. I don't know AXP asm to save my life, but here is the diff I had to do in the i386 xyz.S file: [ diff ] What this change does (for those AXP asm hackers that don't read Intel) is __________. What would be the AXP change needed? What we got: I've developed the proc splitting on i386 and it works for me. The diffs are at http://_______. AXP hackers, go to it. > I think asking him to do this without knowledge of register > save/restore and allocation plocies of the FreeBSD Alpha port > is rather unfair. That is fine, but the -current AXP developers are a small lot. They need to have up-front leg work done, so the limited time they do have (where many i386-only people are tugging at their sleeves) is well spent. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 18:20:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from midten.fast.no (midten.fast.no [213.188.8.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D74837B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tor.Egge@fast.no) Received: from fast.no (IDENT:tegge@midten.fast.no [213.188.8.11]) by midten.fast.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA65564; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 03:20:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200108290120.DAA65564@midten.fast.no> To: jkf@research.bell-labs.com Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, mflaster@research.bell-labs.com, eran@research.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: linux threads and fclose lock problem From: Tor.Egge@fast.no In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:54:34 -0400 (EDT)" References: <200108282154.RAA15501@zydeco.research.bell-labs.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="--Next_Part(Wed_Aug_29_03:19:39_2001)--" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 03:20:07 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----Next_Part(Wed_Aug_29_03:19:39_2001)-- Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The following test program hangs on current from 8/20/2001. > The program hangs in the fprintf to the function testThread(), > instead of running to completion. If the call in main to fclose() > of an unrelated file descriptor is removed the program runs to > completion. > > >From tracing code, it appears that fclose.c locks the file, does some stuff, > and then *tries* to unlock the file. But while _flockfile is called, > _funlockfile is *not*. (The source for fclose.c calls FUNLOCKFILE(fp) - > don't know where FUNLOCKFILE is defined.) _funlockfile is called, but fp->_file is -1 so _funlockfile just returned. Under RELENG_4, fp->_file is set to -1 after the FUNLOCKFILE() statement. A patch for disabling uthread_file.c in the linuxthreads port for FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT is enclosed. This causes the libc version of _flockfile to be used. - Tor Egge ----Next_Part(Wed_Aug_29_03:19:39_2001)-- Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ? work Index: files/uthread_file.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/ports/devel/linuxthreads/files/uthread_file.c,v retrieving revision 1.3 diff -u -r1.3 uthread_file.c --- files/uthread_file.c 4 Jan 2000 00:05:22 -0000 1.3 +++ files/uthread_file.c 29 Aug 2001 01:12:32 -0000 @@ -45,6 +45,8 @@ #include "spinlock.h" #include "restart.h" +#if __FreeBSD__ == 4 + /* * Weak symbols for externally visible functions in this file: */ @@ -396,3 +398,5 @@ } _SPINUNLOCK(&hash_lock); } + +#endif ----Next_Part(Wed_Aug_29_03:19:39_2001)---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 18:24:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from volatile.chemikals.org (ci391991-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com [24.37.154.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6337B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morganw@volatile.chemikals.org) Received: (from morganw@localhost) by volatile.chemikals.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) id f7T1OIn08847; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:24:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from morganw) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:24:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Wesley Morgan To: Subject: removal of diskcheckd.conf breaks mergemaster Message-ID: <20010828212339.T8844-100000@volatile.chemikals.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Subject says it all. /usr/src/etc/Makefile still refers to diskcheckd.conf... -- _ __ ___ ____ ___ ___ ___ Wesley N Morgan _ __ ___ | _ ) __| \ morganw@chemikals.org _ __ | _ \._ \ |) | FreeBSD: The Power To Serve _ |___/___/___/ 6bone: 3ffe:1ce3:7::b4ff:fe53:c297 Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 20:56:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296D237B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA82374 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8C6344.7D08AB56@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:36:36 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: testing KSE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Because we have not patched any non kernel items in the patch A make world in a source tee with the KSE changes in it's kernel directories will fail. You need to do build the kernel outside of the tree you will "make buildworld" in so that the build tree is untouched. Oherwise it will not compile as the libkvm doesn't match the kernel. We'll update libkvm when we check in the changes.. -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 22:20:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42BF37B409; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7T5Krq73359; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:20:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7T5Krn08989; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:20:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108290520.f7T5Krn08989@harmony.village.org> To: Michael Reifenberger Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:07:10 +0200." <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil> References: <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:20:53 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010828120317.U1205-100000@nihil> Michael Reifenberger writes: : This works (now) for supported card like my ep0 (3COM...) but reboots for : unsupported cards like my sandisk-smartmedia etc.. Is this by intention? Well, that should work, but ata hasn't been NEWCARDified yet. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 23:12:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (giasmd01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.6.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF09137B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marblejar_recruiter@vsnl.net) Received: from voice_server (unknown [203.197.130.129]) by giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DDD786E5; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:43:31 +0530 (IST) From: marblejar_recruiter@vsnl.net To: IT_Professionals@giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Subject: ADV: Introduction to Marblejar X-Mailer: AMLC 2.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C12F0C.AD963560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-Id: <20010829061331.6DDD786E5@giasmd01.vsnl.net.in> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:43:31 +0530 (IST) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C12F0C.AD963560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Take charge of your career by utilizing www.marblejar.com We offer = professionals like you all of the services you require to find the most = challenging positions in the IT industry. =20 * $500 Signing bonus when you get a job through us. * Dedicated recruiters to help you identify the "hidden job market", = these are positions that are not typically listed on the job boards or = in the newspapers=20 * We provide total privacy on all of your contact information. 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------=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C12F0C.AD963560-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 28 23:51: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E15637B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id IAA16108 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:50:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7T6orr52929 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:50:53 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from j) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:50:53 +0200 From: Joerg Wunsch To: current@freebsd.org Subject: old BSD/OS binary coredumps Message-ID: <20010829085053.A52695@uriah.heep.sax.de> Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After upgrading to current-2001-08-28, my old BSD/OS Netscape 3 binary no longer works. It coredumps right away at startup, before opening any window. (Running it as "netscape3 -help", where it only produces a usage message, isn't affected.) Now the interesting part: i wanted to get an idea why this happened, and ran it through ktrace. Voila, that still works! Likewise when running through truss. Does anybody have an idea what might have changed, and why's that odd behaviour with the syscall tracers? -- cheers, J"org .-.-. --... ...-- -.. . DL8DTL http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 0: 9:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from leviathan.inethouston.net (leviathan.inethouston.net [66.64.12.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0913D37B405 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwcjr@inethouston.net) Received: by leviathan.inethouston.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A353A10F42F; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:09:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:09:35 -0500 From: "David W. Chapman Jr." To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Undeletable files Message-ID: <20010829020935.A57621@leviathan.inethouston.net> Reply-To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Mail-Followup-To: current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I cannot seem to delete some files that fsck can't seem to fix. I have the following in my loader.conf hw.ata.tags=1 hw.ata.wc=1 and the following in my sysctl.conf vfs.vmiodirenable=1 Fsck gives me this error when I run it MISSING '.' I=3436309 OWNER=root MODE=40755 SIZE=2048 MTIME=Aug 29 01:58 2001 DIR=? UNEXPECTED SOFT UPDATE INCONSISTENCY CANNOT FIX, FIRST ENTRY IN DIRECTORY CONTAINS po UNEXPECTED SOFT UPDATE INCONSISTENCY MISSING '..' I=3436309 OWNER=root MODE=40755 SIZE=2048 MTIME=Aug 29 01:58 2001 DIR=/tmp/binutils UNEXPECTED SOFT UPDATE INCONSISTENCY I managed to isolate them into /usr/tmp but it keeps giving me this error every time I try to delete them. dwcjr# rm -fr binutils rm: binutils/po: Directory not empty rm: binutils: Directory not empty dwcjr# find binutils binutils binutils/po Any clues on how to fix this. I'm also getting a lot of random errors like the below ** Phase 4 - Check Reference Counts LINK COUNT DIR I=3428844 OWNER=root MODE=40755 SIZE=1024 MTIME=Aug 29 01:58 2001 COUNT 1 SHOULD BE 2 LINK COUNT INCREASING UNEXPECTED SOFT UPDATE INCONSISTENCY ADJUST? no LINK COUNT DIR I=3658641 OWNER=root MODE=40777 SIZE=512 MTIME=Aug 29 02:02 2001 COUNT 4 SHOULD BE 3 ADJUST? no -- David W. Chapman Jr. dwcjr@inethouston.net Raintree Network Services, Inc. dwcjr@freebsd.org FreeBSD Committer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 0:25:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8393137B403; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.139.113.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.139.113]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7T7Ppf00954; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B8C9923.55020390@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:26:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Julian Elischer , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ia64 and ALPHA (+arm, sparc?) kernel developers: References: <3B89DE24.E629788@elischer.org> <15242.37206.54444.140501@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <3B8B3477.18E10DA4@mindspring.com> <20010828161606.C6407@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > Yes, but the proper approach would be: [ ... ] > What we got: > > I've developed the proc splitting on i386 and it works for me. > The diffs are at http://_______. AXP hackers, go to it. That's a heck of a lot more than the Alpha people normally get! Generally , it's "cvs commit log: break alpha". In any case, Peter Fixed it... Yeah, Peter! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 0:49:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771C137B406 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7T7nrM09301 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275FD3906; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: old BSD/OS binary coredumps In-Reply-To: <20010829085053.A52695@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:49:53 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010829074953.275FD3906@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joerg Wunsch wrote: > After upgrading to current-2001-08-28, my old BSD/OS Netscape 3 binary > no longer works. It coredumps right away at startup, before opening > any window. (Running it as "netscape3 -help", where it only produces > a usage message, isn't affected.) > > Now the interesting part: i wanted to get an idea why this happened, > and ran it through ktrace. Voila, that still works! Likewise when > running through truss. > > Does anybody have an idea what might have changed, and why's that odd > behaviour with the syscall tracers? That is certainly odd. Can you put a .tar.gz of whatever is needed to replicate it somewhere? eg: on http://freefall/~joerg/ ? What is the last -current kernel build date that it ran under? Have you removed COMPAT_43 by any chance? Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 1: 2:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.99.75.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE0737B403; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:02:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.plaut.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id KAA01443; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:02:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by nihil.plaut.de (8.11.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f7TA1Xg00611; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:01:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:01:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: Jonathan Chen Cc: Michael Reifenberger , Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h In-Reply-To: <20010828182233.C807@enterprise.spock.org> Message-ID: <20010829115934.T594-100000@nihil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: ... > > The boot message is attached in boot.txt. > > The backtrace is following tomorrow ( hopefully after building a new kernel) > > That won't be necessary. I now know what causes the panic. Actually, > that's not really important. There's something strange going on with the > second non-ep card insertion. Is this a memory card you're trying to use? Yes. It is either a SANDISK Smartmedia 64MB or a Apacer CF 64MB. Both should attach to the ad driver... Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger ^.*Plaut.*$, IT, R/3 Basis, GPS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 1: 3:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6485737B40A; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7T83cq73871; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:03:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7T83cn10567; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:03:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108290803.f7T83cn10567@harmony.village.org> To: Michael Reifenberger Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/cardbus cardbus.c cardbus_cis.c cardbus_cis.h cardbusvar.h src/sys/dev/pccard card_if.m pccard.c pccardvar.h src/sys/dev/pccbb pccbb.c pccbbvar.h src/sys/sys rman.h Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:01:32 +0200." <20010829115934.T594-100000@nihil> References: <20010829115934.T594-100000@nihil> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:03:38 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010829115934.T594-100000@nihil> Michael Reifenberger writes: : On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: : ... : > > The boot message is attached in boot.txt. : > > The backtrace is following tomorrow ( hopefully after building a new kernel) : > : > That won't be necessary. I now know what causes the panic. Actually, : > that's not really important. There's something strange going on with the : > second non-ep card insertion. Is this a memory card you're trying to use? : Yes. : It is either a SANDISK Smartmedia 64MB or a Apacer CF 64MB. : Both should attach to the ad driver... The ata driver hasn't been NEWCARDed yet. It needs to be updated. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 1: 7:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ipcard.iptcom.net (ipcard.iptcom.net [212.9.224.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D0337B403; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:07:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from vega.vega.com (dialup14-50.iptelecom.net.ua [212.9.229.114]) by ipcard.iptcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00880; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:06:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (big_brother.vega.com [192.168.1.1]) by vega.vega.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7T864o58531; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:06:04 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3B8CA2B0.DF1919BF@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:07:12 +0300 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Vega International Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,uk,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Junior Kernel Hacker task: Get rid of NCCD constant. References: <68364.998941145@critter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Assignment: > > There is no reason for the NCCD constant to exist anymore. > > The CCD driver already has cloning support but CCDs "softc" > structure is statically allocated for NCCD devices. > > Change the CCD driver to dynamically allocate memory as needed, > the MD driver can be used as example as the overall morphology > of the two drivers are the same. I'll do that. -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 1:22:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.64.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421A37B40A for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from un1i@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) Received: from rzstud1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (rzstud1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [193.196.41.33]) by mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15c0cH-0002Yt-00; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:22:29 +0200 Received: from un1i by rzstud1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15c0cH-0003Na-00; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:22:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:22:29 +0200 From: Philipp Mergenthaler To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: old BSD/OS binary coredumps Message-ID: <20010829102229.A7573@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <20010829085053.A52695@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010829085053.A52695@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from j@uriah.heep.sax.de on Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 08:50:53AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 08:50:53AM +0200, Joerg Wunsch wrote: > After upgrading to current-2001-08-28, my old BSD/OS Netscape 3 binary > no longer works. It coredumps right away at startup, before opening > any window. (Running it as "netscape3 -help", where it only produces > a usage message, isn't affected.) > > Now the interesting part: i wanted to get an idea why this happened, > and ran it through ktrace. Voila, that still works! Likewise when > running through truss. I saw something like this some time ago, too. In my case it was because in kern_sysctl:ogetkerninfo(), in "case KINFO_BSDI_SYSINFO:", the variable "size" is not always given a value. Maybe the patch in http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=25476 fixes it for you, too? (Hm, now I think my patch could need a comment: "size" will only be returned if needed==0. There are two ways this can happen: 1) "case KINFO_BSDI_SYSINFO" has been executed: In this case, "size" will have been set to 0, too. "size" is of size_t, i.e. positive or 0.) 2) on of the other cases has been executed: they all set "size".) > Does anybody have an idea what might have changed, If it's what I suspect, just the random inital value of "size" changed... > and why's that odd behaviour with the syscall tracers? I'd like to know that, too. Bye, Philipp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 2:47:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BDD37B406; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7T9le5230137; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:47:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7T9leu420904; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:47:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:2klAmouOO0V4tOtR1H1jVeb13UUYLabt@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id SAA02928; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:57:24 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108290957.SAA02928@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Mike Smith , imp@harmony.village.org Cc: current@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:10:24 MST." <200108262310.f7QNAOI01455@mass.dis.org> References: <200108262310.f7QNAOI01455@mass.dis.org> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:57:23 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> I once wrote the following patch to deal with this problem by >> probing ISA devices in the following order. >> >> 1. sensitive ISA devices described in device.hints >> 2. PnP BIOS ISA devices >> 3. other ISA devices described in device.hints >> 4. PnP ISA devices > >This order is still slightly wrong. You need to do: > > 0. Disable ALL PnP devices which can be disabled. Ya, the patch disables PnP devices (if they can be disabled) before it starts probing devices. It enables each PnP device only when it is about to be probed... > 1. PnP devices (of any kind) which cannot be disabled, or which only > have a single configuration. These devices which cannot be disabled > need a placeholder attached to them if a driver doesn't claim them, > or some other mechanism so that their resources are never used. > 2. Sensitive hinted ISA devices. > 3. Other ISA devices. > 4. Other PnP devices. Ok, revised patch is attached. Kazu begin 666 isapnp.diff2.gz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end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 5:19:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901B337B405 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 05:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 078956BF; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:19:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:19:11 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undeletable files Message-ID: <20010829071911.B3349@hellblazer.nectar.com> References: <20010829020935.A57621@leviathan.inethouston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010829020935.A57621@leviathan.inethouston.net>; from dwcjr@inethouston.net on Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 02:09:35AM -0500 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 02:09:35AM -0500, David W. Chapman Jr. wrote: > I cannot seem to delete some files that fsck can't seem to fix. Use clri(8) to stomp the directory that is giving you problems, then run fsck again. Repeat until the filesystem is clean. Then find your backup :-) Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 6:22:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from leviathan.inethouston.net (leviathan.inethouston.net [66.64.12.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32AA37B401 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwcjr@inethouston.net) Received: by leviathan.inethouston.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DB06A10F430; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:22:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:22:30 -0500 From: "David W. Chapman Jr." To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undeletable files Message-ID: <20010829082230.A70235@leviathan.inethouston.net> Reply-To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , "David W. Chapman Jr." , current@freebsd.org References: <20010829020935.A57621@leviathan.inethouston.net> <20010829071911.B3349@hellblazer.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010829071911.B3349@hellblazer.nectar.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 07:19:11AM -0500, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 02:09:35AM -0500, David W. Chapman Jr. wrote: > > I cannot seem to delete some files that fsck can't seem to fix. > > Use clri(8) to stomp the directory that is giving you problems, then > run fsck again. Repeat until the filesystem is clean. > Thanks, that seemed to do it. -- David W. 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 13:55: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1142B37B405; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7TKsxC76074; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:54:59 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:54:56 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: current@freebsd.org, multimedia@freebsd.org Subject: -current snd: where 'bass' and 'treble' gone? Message-ID: <20010830005454.A75949@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have plain SB Live! Value which works with pcm+emu10k1 modules long time ago. Today when I try I found that 'bass' and 'treble' options dissapearse from mixer capabilities, but some unknown and wrong options appearse instead, like 'video' (SB don't have video). I think something wrong with treating AC97 mixer capabilities in emu10k1 code. Fix this thing, please. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 14:15:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9ED37B401 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA86253; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: David Wolfskill Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: testing KSE In-Reply-To: <200108292019.f7TKJrN41634@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, David Wolfskill wrote: > OK; maybe I'm just not cut out to be trying to do this..... > > The first time I tried the usual approach, my build machine locked up, > hard. (It was running the previous days' -CURRENT -- and I was able to > build today's -CURRENT on a copy of it). Once I got home, I found that > nothing would make the machine do anything except for a power cycle or a > reset. In particular, Ctl+Alt+Esc didn't do anything. > > I tried again, and sometime after I started it, I saw your message that > says "You need to do build the kernel outside of the tree you will > "make buildworld" in so that the build tree is untouched...." And sure > enough, the 2nd attempt terminated: > After doing a single buildworld of a normal tree, The best thing you can do to test it is just use is as much as possible as a replacement for your normal kernel, so that we can try out as many 'paths' through the kernel as possible. Everyone does a few buildworlds so that's quite tested.. not a lot of Music gets played on it, or videos watched etc. (linux emulation for example) Try som ekernel modules after you have tried the same modules built in.. that sort of thing.. > > But I'm having no luck figuring out what you want folks to do, based on > your (quoted) comment. Here's what I usually do (within "script"): [...] > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 14:57:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from naboo.ethz.ch (naboo.ethz.ch [129.132.17.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54A237B401 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from carlo@vis.ethz.ch) Received: by naboo.ethz.ch (Postfix, from userid 224) id 71559275B7; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:57:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: testing KSE To: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:57:20 +0200 (CEST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Julian Elischer" at Aug 29, 2001 02:21:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010829215720.71559275B7@naboo.ethz.ch> From: carlo@vis.ethz.ch (Carlo Dapor) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The most recent diffs applied nicely. The kernel built nicely, as well. But I could not mount an msdosfs partition, it bombed terribly. I don't have any ouytput, though, sorry. Ciao, derweil, -- Carlo PS: Only two or three modules did not compile, ncp and smbfs(?) I think > After doing a single buildworld of a normal tree, > The best thing you can do to test it is just use is as much as possible > as a replacement for your normal kernel, so that > we can try out as many 'paths' through the kernel as possible. > Everyone does a few buildworlds so that's quite tested.. > not a lot of Music gets played on it, or videos watched etc. > (linux emulation for example) > Try som ekernel modules after you have tried the same modules built in.. > > that sort of thing.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 15:35:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791B937B407 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA86594; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:42:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Carlo Dapor Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: testing KSE In-Reply-To: <20010829215720.71559275B7@naboo.ethz.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG can you try the same with a "matching" -current? I heard that msdosfs is bombing there too. (just to confirm this.. if it works there but not with KSE then we have work to do :-) On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Carlo Dapor wrote: > The most recent diffs applied nicely. > The kernel built nicely, as well. > > But I could not mount an msdosfs partition, it bombed terribly. > I don't have any ouytput, though, sorry. > > Ciao, derweil, > -- > Carlo > > PS: Only two or three modules did not compile, ncp and smbfs(?) I think > > > After doing a single buildworld of a normal tree, > > The best thing you can do to test it is just use is as much as possible > > as a replacement for your normal kernel, so that > > we can try out as many 'paths' through the kernel as possible. > > Everyone does a few buildworlds so that's quite tested.. > > not a lot of Music gets played on it, or videos watched etc. > > (linux emulation for example) > > Try som ekernel modules after you have tried the same modules built in.. > > > > that sort of thing.. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 16: 6:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from leviathan.inethouston.net (leviathan.inethouston.net [66.64.12.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A01137B409 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwcjr@inethouston.net) Received: by leviathan.inethouston.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A195610F42D; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:06:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:06:16 -0500 From: "David W. Chapman Jr." To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: testing KSE Message-ID: <20010829180616.A4164@leviathan.inethouston.net> Reply-To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Mail-Followup-To: Julian Elischer , current@freebsd.org References: <20010829215720.71559275B7@naboo.ethz.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 03:42:55PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > can you try the same with a "matching" -current? > I heard that msdosfs is bombing there too. > (just to confirm this.. if it works there but not with KSE > then we have work to do :-) > I'm just tuning into this thread a little late, so excuse the ignorance that I show. I have no problems with msdosfs FreeBSD dwcjr.inethouston.net 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Tue Aug 28 22: 23:07 GMT 2001 root@dwcjr.inethouston.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DWCJR i386 -- David W. Chapman Jr. dwcjr@inethouston.net Raintree Network Services, Inc. dwcjr@freebsd.org FreeBSD Committer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 16:38:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CB337B405 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA86819; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: testing KSE In-Reply-To: <20010829180616.A4164@leviathan.inethouston.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG the crash I saw was on today's sources I think. That's why I'm asking for the same revision of the -current to be used.. My test box has no floppies... On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, David W. Chapman Jr. wrote: > On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 03:42:55PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > can you try the same with a "matching" -current? > > I heard that msdosfs is bombing there too. > > (just to confirm this.. if it works there but not with KSE > > then we have work to do :-) > > > > I'm just tuning into this thread a little late, so excuse the > ignorance that I show. I have no problems with msdosfs > > FreeBSD dwcjr.inethouston.net 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Tue > Aug 28 22: 23:07 GMT 2001 root@dwcjr.inethouston.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DWCJR i386 > > -- > David W. Chapman Jr. > dwcjr@inethouston.net Raintree Network Services, Inc. > dwcjr@freebsd.org FreeBSD Committer > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 17:28:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp (fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp [192.51.44.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1650937B401 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yoshint@flab.fujitsu.co.jp) Received: from m1.gw.fujitsu.co.jp by fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-MX0108-Fujitsu Gateway) id JAA23801 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:27:25 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from yoshint@flab.fujitsu.co.jp) Received: from cerberus.proc.flab.fujitsu.co.jp by m1.gw.fujitsu.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-0108-Fujitsu Domain Master) id JAA11680 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:27:25 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from yoshint@flab.fujitsu.co.jp) Received: from cerberus.proc.flab.fujitsu.co.jp.proc.flab.fujitsu.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cerberus.proc.flab.fujitsu.co.jp (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7U0RO603043 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:27:24 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from yoshint@flab.fujitsu.co.jp) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org From: TOMITA Yoshinori MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:27:23 +0900 Message-ID: Lines: 1 User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.4 (based on Oort Gnus v0.04) (revision 06) EMY/1.13.9 (Art is long, life is short) SLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPHIwZjpMTD4bKEI=?=) APEL/10.2 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 4) (Artificial Intelligence) (i386-unknown-freebsd4.3) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe freebsd-current To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 18: 0:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from leviathan.inethouston.net (leviathan.inethouston.net [66.64.12.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D3737B403 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:00:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwcjr@inethouston.net) Received: by leviathan.inethouston.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E9C6010F42D; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:00:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:00:58 -0500 From: "David W. Chapman Jr." To: current@freebsd.org Subject: pw group add problem Message-ID: <20010829200058.A8969@leviathan.inethouston.net> Reply-To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Mail-Followup-To: current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG When I run the command in the topic I get the following error. pw: group update: Inappropriate ioctl for device This works in -stable I noticed this problem while testing postfix-current which runs /usr/sbin/pw groupadd ${group} -h - || exit from pkg-install and also gives the above error message. - David W. Chapman Jr. dwcjr@inethouston.net Raintree Network Services, Inc. dwcjr@freebsd.org FreeBSD Committer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 19:53:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BEF37B406 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7U2wxq06147 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108300258.f7U2wxq06147@mass.dis.org> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:58:59 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have just committed some changes to the way that ACPI works in current. This has an impact on all -current users, so please take a few seconds to read this and feel free to ask questions. The loader now detects ACPI in your system, and loads the ACPI module if it is present. This has major ramifications for the device probe and attach phases of system initialisation. - Root PCI bridges are detected using ACPI. - PCI interrupt routing is now performed using ACPI. - The PnP BIOS is disabled and onboard peripherals are detected using ACPI, and attach to ACPI and not isa. - System-owned resources are detected and reserved by ACPI. - The default system timecounter will be the ACPI timer. There are other changes, these are just the really big ones. I'll try to answer some of the FAQs here, to keep the discussion focussed. Regards, Mike ACPI Integration Mini-FAQ - Who died and left you in charge? - Why are you making such major changes? ACPI is the direction that the Intel/PC architecture is taking. The dominant operating system family on this platform uses ACPI heavily and has done so for the last five years. We have to follow suit or fall badly behind. In addition, ACPI brings us functionality that we have not had in the past. Much discussion on ACPI has been had, and the current direction reflects such consensus as has been reached so far. - Help! ACPI crashes my system. You can disable ACPI by unsetting the 'acpi_load' variable in the loader (for temporary testing) or by setting hint.acpi.0.disable=1 in /boot/device.hints. If you find that you need to do this, please let the FreeBSD ACPI developers (acpi-jp@jp.freebsd.org) know so that we can investigate the problem. - The ACPI module is huge! Do I have to use it? No, you don't. But you may lose functionality if you choose to disable it. The system's legacy probe mechanisms have not been affected by these changes, and we will continue to support legacy platforms for the forseeable future. - Where can I find more information on ACPI? The ACPI homepage is at http://www.teleport.com/~acpi The Intel ACPI Component Architecture homepage is at http://developer.intel.com/technology/iapc/acpi The acpi(4) manpage offers an overview of the debugging options for the Intel ACPI CA code (the core of the ACPI subsystem). An acpi(9) manpage is under development. - Can I compile ACPI into the kernel for debugging? Yes. See NOTES for details on this. Note that you must disable loading of the ACPI module to avoid confusing the kernel linker if you do this. - Is ACPI compatible with APM? No. You must disable APM if you are using ACPI. - Does this change make FreeBSD a "PnP OS"? Not entirely. You may still need to set BIOS "PnP OS" to "NO" in your BIOS setup. - Do I need to make any other BIOS adjustments? You should update your BIOS to the latest version available for your system. If your system has an option to enable ACPI, it should be enabled (typically under 'power management'). - Can ACPI damage my system? Under ACPI, the operating system is meant to be responsible for thermal management of the system. Our thermal management code has only been lightly tested, and many systems still ignore the OS and perform their own thermal management. You should monitor your system for any unexpected behaviour when using ACPI, not just overheating. - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 20:24:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001EE37B405; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7U3OfM57201; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:24:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:24:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200108300324.f7U3OfM57201@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Mike Smith Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-Reply-To: <200108300258.f7U2wxq06147@mass.dis.org> References: <200108300258.f7U2wxq06147@mass.dis.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! > Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 20:26:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7F137B40A; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.5/8.11.5) with SMTP id f7U3QpP83959; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:26:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:26:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Garrett Wollman Cc: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-Reply-To: <200108300324.f7U3OfM57201@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > > - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! > > > Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) > > FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the > machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button > turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset > switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power > the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 seconds). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 21:10:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ambrisko.com (adsl-64-174-51-42.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.174.51.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C1337B40B; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ambrisko@ambrisko.com) Received: (from ambrisko@localhost) by ambrisko.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f7U4ACi41489; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ambrisko) From: Doug Ambrisko Message-Id: <200108300410.f7U4ACi41489@ambrisko.com> Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-Reply-To: "from Robert Watson at Aug 29, 2001 11:26:50 pm" To: Robert Watson Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Watson writes: | On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: | > < said: | > > - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! | > | > > Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) | > | > FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the | > machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button | > turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset | > switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power | > the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. | | Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold | down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 | seconds). Correct ... and unfortunately it's done in hardware so you can trap it :-( In some applications you want to make it really hard for someone to be able to turn it off when a "power off" is not equivalent to "pull the plug" and the "pull the plug" is safer for the system due to power supply design. Doug A. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 21:57:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA60337B403; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7U4v4M13083; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3660B3807; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Doug Ambrisko Cc: Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-Reply-To: <200108300410.f7U4ACi41489@ambrisko.com> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:57:04 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010830045704.3660B3807@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Ambrisko wrote: > Robert Watson writes: > | On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > | > < sai d: > | > > - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! > | > > | > > Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) > | > > | > FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the > | > machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button > | > turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset > | > switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power > | > the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. > | > | Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold > | down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 > | seconds). > > Correct ... and unfortunately it's done in hardware so you can trap it :-( > In some applications you want to make it really hard for someone to be > able to turn it off when a "power off" is not equivalent to "pull the > plug" and the "pull the plug" is safer for the system due to power supply > design. Most systems have a 4-second override so that holding down the power button for 4 seconds forces it off. However, my vaio is not one of these. I've had the joy of having to unplug the power and then remove the battery to get out of an acpi wedge. Anyway, IMHO, this is the least of our problems. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 29 23:33:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.unixfreak.org (bazooka.unixfreak.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559C637B408 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@unixfreak.org) Received: by bazooka.unixfreak.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EB9BC3E2F; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bazooka.unixfreak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.unixfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA3D3C12D; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:33:19 -0700 (PDT) To: "David W. Chapman Jr." Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pw group add problem In-Reply-To: <20010829200058.A8969@leviathan.inethouston.net>; from dwcjr@inethouston.net on "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:00:58 -0500" Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:33:14 -0700 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20010830063319.EB9BC3E2F@bazooka.unixfreak.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David W. Chapman Jr." wrote: > When I run the command in the topic I get the following error. > > pw: group update: Inappropriate ioctl for device > > This works in -stable > > I noticed this problem while testing postfix-current which runs > > /usr/sbin/pw groupadd ${group} -h - || exit > > > from pkg-install and also gives the above error message. This should be fixed in rev 1.10 of src/usr.sbin/pw/grupd.c. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 30 2: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255A437B436; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7U9Bcq09230; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108300911.f7U9Bcq09230@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Robert Watson Cc: Garrett Wollman , Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:26:50 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:11:38 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > - I pushed the power button, and my system shut down cleanly! > > > > > Yes. ACPI brings some useful new features. 8) > > > > FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the > > machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button > > turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset > > switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power > > the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. > > Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold > down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 > seconds). Actually, it's typically somewhere between four and five. The spec mandates not less than four. Personally, as a sometime developer, I'd get a reset switch. Power cycling your system is Bad. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 30 2: 7:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB0037B401; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7U9DVq09260; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108300913.f7U9DVq09260@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Doug Ambrisko Cc: Robert Watson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:10:12 PDT." <200108300410.f7U4ACi41489@ambrisko.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:13:31 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > | Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold > | down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 > | seconds). > > Correct ... and unfortunately it's done in hardware so you can trap it :-( > In some applications you want to make it really hard for someone to be > able to turn it off when a "power off" is not equivalent to "pull the > plug" and the "pull the plug" is safer for the system due to power supply > design. ... so rewire the power switch to the sleep button input, and set the sleep button action to S5. Then hitting the "power" button will shut down, but holding it down forever won't force power off... -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 30 2:27:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE0737B408; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10673; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:27:13 +1000 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:27:02 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: To: Robert Watson Cc: Garrett Wollman , Mike Smith , Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830192209.P675-100000@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > > FSVO ``useful''. It's a real PITA to have to physically unplug the > > machine when the kernel is wedged rather than have the power button > > turn off the power. (The machine in question does not have a reset > > switch.) As a sometime developer, I may well have a reason to power > > the system off without performing any kind of shutdown. > > Most systems with soft power will perform a hard powerdown if you hold > down the power button for a sufficiently long period of time (10 - 20 > seconds). Yes, it's a real PITA to have to hold down the power button for that long :) (it's normally more like 5 seconds though). I have a system that often doesn't come up after a hard reset or crash (at least video doesn't work), and have to hold its power button down for too long. I've found acpica as useful as any other disk filling service and hope it stays that way. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 30 3: 4:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88ADB37B405; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7UA4f5255723; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:04:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7UA4fu470929; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:04:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:xnOobXI6NJB+cg/W334zA6JjcwmhDl3P@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id TAA09199; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:14:25 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108301014.TAA09199@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Mike Smith , Warner Losh Cc: current@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: unknown PNP hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:10:24 MST." <200108262310.f7QNAOI01455@mass.dis.org> References: <200108262310.f7QNAOI01455@mass.dis.org> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:14:24 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, this is the 3rd revised patch for PnP. I think it works fairely well. I may not invest further time on this, now that ACPI is taking over device configuration business... :-) Kazu >> I once wrote the following patch to deal with this problem by >> probing ISA devices in the following order. >> >> 1. sensitive ISA devices described in device.hints >> 2. PnP BIOS ISA devices >> 3. other ISA devices described in device.hints >> 4. PnP ISA devices > >This order is still slightly wrong. You need to do: > > 0. Disable ALL PnP devices which can be disabled. > 1. PnP devices (of any kind) which cannot be disabled, or which only > have a single configuration. These devices which cannot be disabled > need a placeholder attached to them if a driver doesn't claim them, > or some other mechanism so that their resources are never used. > 2. Sensitive hinted ISA devices. > 3. Other ISA devices. > 4. Other PnP devices. begin 666 isapnp.diff3.gz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end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 30 5:58: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gorilla.mchh.siemens.de (gorilla.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E62437B401; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:57:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Reifenberger.gp@icn.siemens.de) Received: from moody.mchh.siemens.de (mail2.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.226]) by gorilla.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03059; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:57:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mchh273e.demchh201e.icn.siemens.de ([139.21.200.83]) by moody.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14809; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:57:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by MCHH273E with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:56:59 +0200 Message-ID: <67E0BE167008D31185F60008C7289DA0E1308D@MCHH218E> From: Reifenberger Michael To: "'msmith@FreeBSD.org'" Cc: "'freebsd-current@freebsd.org'" Subject: ACPI & Toshiba Tecra 8000 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:56:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, a few things to note: - Loading the new kernel & acpi.ko with the old loader freezes the loader. - Loading acpi.ko by hand with the new loader freezes or endless-loops the loader. - Letting the new loader using the acpi.ko brings the system up and running except my sound-system (missing equivalent to isa_probe_children: probing PnP devices?) Dmesg's with & without acpi: ### with new ACPI ### Copyright (c) 1992-2001 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Aug 30 16:25:32 CEST 2001 root@nihil:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/nihil Calibrating clock(s) ... TSC clock: 266605716 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193143 Hz CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION not specified - using default frequency Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CLK_USE_TSC_CALIBRATION not specified - using old calibration method Timecounter "TSC" frequency 266616245 Hz CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (266.62-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 Features=0x183f9ff real memory = 268369920 (262080K bytes) Physical memory chunk(s): 0x00001000 - 0x0009efff, 647168 bytes (158 pages) 0x003b4000 - 0x0ffe7fff, 264454144 bytes (64564 pages) avail memory = 257630208 (251592K bytes) bios32: Found BIOS32 Service Directory header at 0xc00fc470 bios32: Entry = 0xfc480 (c00fc480) Rev = 0 Len = 1 pcibios: PCI BIOS entry at 0xf0000+0x827 pnpbios: Found PnP BIOS data at 0xc00fed00 pnpbios: Entry = f0000:92e4 Rev = 1.0 pnpbios: Event flag at 510 pnpbios: OEM ID 7933f351 Other BIOS signatures found: Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc038e000. Preloaded userconfig_script "/boot/kernel.conf" at 0xc038e0a8. Preloaded elf module "md.ko" at 0xc038e0f8. Preloaded elf module "if_dc.ko" at 0xc038e194. Preloaded elf module "miibus.ko" at 0xc038e234. Preloaded elf module "snd_mss.ko" at 0xc038e2d4. Preloaded elf module "snd_pcm.ko" at 0xc038e374. Preloaded elf module "usb.ko" at 0xc038e414. Preloaded elf module "ums.ko" at 0xc038e4b0. Preloaded elf module "if_ep.ko" at 0xc038e54c. Preloaded elf module "acpi.ko" at 0xc038e5ec. mem: Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled VESA: information block 56 45 53 41 00 02 20 01 00 01 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 01 27 00 13 00 00 01 00 01 09 01 00 01 1b 01 00 01 00 01 01 01 02 01 03 01 04 01 05 01 07 01 08 01 0d 01 0e 01 10 01 11 01 12 01 13 01 14 01 VESA: 25 mode(s) found VESA: v2.0, 2496k memory, flags:0x0, mode table:0xc02834c2 (1000022) VESA: MagicGraph 256 AV 44K PRELIMINARY VESA: NeoMagic MagicMedia 256 AV 01.0 random: null: pci_open(1): mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x00000000 pci_open(1a): mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000) pci_cfgcheck: device 0 [class=060000] [hdr=00] is there (id=71928086) Using $PIR table, 6 entries at 0xc00f01e0 npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: power button is handled as a fixed feature programming model. Timecounter "ACPI" frequency 3579545 Hz acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0xfe08-0xfe0b on acpi0 acpi_cpu0: on acpi0 acpi_tz0: on acpi0 acpi_pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: physical bus=0 map[10]: type 3, range 32, base e0000000, size 28, enabled found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7192, revid=0x02 bus=0, slot=0, func=0 class=06-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 map[10]: type 3, range 32, base df000000, size 24, enabled map[14]: type 1, range 32, base ff800000, size 22, enabled map[18]: type 1, range 32, base ff700000, size 20, enabled found-> vendor=0x10c8, dev=0x0005, revid=0x12 bus=0, slot=4, func=0 class=03-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 intpin=a, irq=11 powerspec 1 supports D0 D1 D2 D3 current D0 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7110, revid=0x02 bus=0, slot=5, func=0 class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=1 map[20]: type 4, range 32, base 0000fe60, size 4, enabled found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7111, revid=0x01 bus=0, slot=5, func=1 class=01-01-80, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 map[20]: type 4, range 32, base 0000ffe0, size 5, enabled found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7112, revid=0x01 bus=0, slot=5, func=2 class=0c-03-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 intpin=d, irq=11 map[90]: type 4, range 32, base 0000fe70, size 4, enabled found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7113, revid=0x02 bus=0, slot=5, func=3 class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 map[10]: type 4, range 32, base 0000ff80, size 5, enabled found-> vendor=0x1179, dev=0x0701, revid=0x23 bus=0, slot=9, func=0 class=07-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 intpin=a, irq=11 found-> vendor=0x1179, dev=0x060f, revid=0x05 bus=0, slot=11, func=0 class=06-07-00, hdrtype=0x02, mfdev=1 intpin=a, irq=255 found-> vendor=0x1179, dev=0x060f, revid=0x05 bus=0, slot=11, func=1 class=06-07-00, hdrtype=0x02, mfdev=1 intpin=b, irq=255 pci0: on acpi_pcib0 pci0: at 4.0 (no driver attached) PCI-ISA bridge with incorrect subclass 0x80 PCI-ISA bridge with incorrect subclass 0x80 isab0: at device 5.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0xfe60-0xfe6f at device 5.1 on pci0 ata0: iobase=0x01f0 altiobase=0x03f6 bmaddr=0xfe60 ata0: mask=03 ostat0=50 ostat2=00 ata0-slave: ATAPI probe 00 00 ata0-master: ATAPI probe 00 00 ata0: mask=03 stat0=50 stat1=00 ata0-master: ATA probe 01 a5 ata0: devices=01 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: iobase=0x0170 altiobase=0x0376 bmaddr=0xfe68 ata1: mask=03 ostat0=50 ostat2=00 ata1-master: ATAPI probe 00 00 ata1-slave: ATAPI probe 00 00 ata1: mask=03 stat0=50 stat1=00 ata1-master: ATA probe 01 a5 ata1: devices=01 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: port 0xffe0-0xffff irq 11 at device 5.2 on pci0 usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered pci0: at 5.3 (no driver attached) pci0: at 9.0 (no driver attached) pccbb0: at device 11.0 on pci0 pccbb0: PCI Memory allocated: 10000000 acpi_pcib0: matched entry for 0.11.INTA (source \\_SB_.LNKA) acpi_pcib0: device is routed to IRQ 11 cardbus0: on pccbb0 pccard0: <16-bit PCCard bus> on pccbb0 pccbb1: at device 11.1 on pci0 pccbb1: PCI Memory allocated: 10001000 acpi_pcib0: matched entry for 0.11.INTB (source \\_SB_.LNKB) acpi_pcib0: device is routed to IRQ 11 cardbus1: on pccbb1 pccard1: <16-bit PCCard bus> on pccbb1 acpi_lid0: on acpi0 acpi_cmbat0: on acpi0 acpi_cmbat1: on acpi0 acpi_acad0: on acpi0 ata-: ata1 already exists, using ata2 instead ata-: ata2 already exists, using ata3 instead vga-: vga0 already exists, using vga1 instead sc-: sc0 already exists, using sc1 instead Trying Read_Port at 203 Trying Read_Port at 243 Trying Read_Port at 283 Trying Read_Port at 2c3 Trying Read_Port at 303 Trying Read_Port at 343 Trying Read_Port at 383 Trying Read_Port at 3c3 isa_probe_children: disabling PnP devices isa_probe_children: probing non-PnP devices orm0: