From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 2: 7:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E73B37B404 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 709CE5341; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:07:41 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:07:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? (You Gotta) Fight for your Right (to Source Code), by the BSD Boys. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 2:40:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF1037B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0048.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.48] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cOie-0004Uh-00; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6F8836.854BAC2F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:38:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: aw1@stade.co.uk, "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD thanWindows?) References: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20020216134025.01cfd980@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Funny thing about Algol: When Algol-60 (which had some features that > neither FORTRAN nor C has, such as range and bounds checking) for > UNIVAC hardware was completed, scientists at Case Institute > of Technology (where I did my undergraduate degree) ported some old > government code over and tried to run it. The machine immediately > reported runtime errors. Variables were undefined; subscripts were > going out of bounds; the results that were produced if the errors > were ignored were virtually random. > > And now the punch line: the code they'd ported had been used in > the design of nuclear weapons. > > I trust neither FORTRAN nor C to this day. Who cares about that... did they work? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 2:40:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B3837B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0048.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.48] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cOkC-000580-00; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:40:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug White Cc: Rob , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) References: <20020216180815.J91166-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug White wrote: > On Sat, 16 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Rob wrote: > > > Well dmesg reports 1Ghz for this Viao FX290, but I didn't believe it > > > after Terry's message. So I went into BIOS Setup and set the power > > > management for max performance all of the time. Now my 800 sec > > > executable is running at 420 sec, still a little slower than Windows at > > > 300 sec. I wonder how many other laptop users are totally in the dark > > > that they are on slow speed all the time while in FBSD? Thanks again > > > Terry. > > > > FWIW, this thread is probably not being monitored by > > Mike Smith; you ought to report this as a bug, so > > that it gets taken care of for real, instead of as a > > workaround. > > Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. Works in Windows: Not a VAIO problem, it's a FreeBSD problem. Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better than FreeBSD programmers? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 3:27:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1E937B405 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C0E5501; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:18:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-28.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.28]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D261150284; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 75ADC3332; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709794C44; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Terry Lambert Cc: Doug White , Rob , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) In-Reply-To: <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better > than FreeBSD programmers? What do you call 1,000 Windows Programmers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 3:49:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893CC37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2855501; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:41:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-100.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.100]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457E350284; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:49:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 75ADC3332; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709794C44; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Terry Lambert Cc: Doug White , Rob , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) In-Reply-To: <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better > than FreeBSD programmers? What do you call 1,000 Windows Programmers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 3:54:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331DD37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1HBrqO01579; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:53:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:53:52 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune Message-ID: <20020217035352.B330@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:07:41AM +0100 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@ofug.org) [020217 02:07]: > Sue Blake writes: > > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? > > (You Gotta) Fight for your Right (to Source Code), by the BSD Boys. You sure thats not by the Beastie (the daemon) boys? ;) > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- Benjamin Krueger "From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 7:42:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BC1737B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 024874582; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:41:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6FCEB6.38DA0622@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:39:35 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius :) References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <3C6DD1C7.4F3DEE06@mindspring.com> <3C6DD7E4.2F3DF868@pythonemproject.com> <3C6E733C.B7B6535C@pythonemproject.com> <3C6F00FA.C8B7693B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Rob wrote: > > Well dmesg reports 1Ghz for this Viao FX290, but I didn't believe it > > after Terry's message. So I went into BIOS Setup and set the power > > management for max performance all of the time. Now my 800 sec > > executable is running at 420 sec, still a little slower than Windows at > > 300 sec. I wonder how many other laptop users are totally in the dark > > that they are on slow speed all the time while in FBSD? Thanks again > > Terry. > > FWIW, this thread is probably not being monitored by > Mike Smith; you ought to report this as a bug, so > that it gets taken care of for real, instead of as a > workaround. > > -- Terry Well, I believe that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I found that if I ran my Python program from the console it took only 400sec, just 100 more than windoze. But if I ran it from IDLE, the IDE, it took 800sec. Then I removed all my Python and reinstalled it compiling with -02. Console still ran at 400 sec, but with IDLE, I get 440sec. Then I remembered, I had installed the IdleFork port. So it must bork the program in some way. Regular IDLE does OK. Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 10:15:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A024F37B41E for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from potentialtech.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1HIA1b12519; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:10:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6FF419.7020900@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:19:05 -0500 From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.3) Gecko/20010914 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Michael Sierchio Subject: Re: Natural stone tables References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <3C6FD7D0.1020908@tenebras.com> <15471.62020.879916.76383@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > What's needed is spam reduction technology. TMDA could deal with this > in a way that was painless for subscribers and nearly painless for > non-subscribers. Now that I've installed it, the only spam I get is > from the freebsd lists. But - who do we talk to about getting it done? Isn't this like mandating that the entire population of the US wear bullet-proof vests intead of arresting the people who are shooting? -- Bill Moran Potential Technology http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 10:30: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 703AF37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 83937 invoked by uid 100); 17 Feb 2002 18:30:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15471.63147.91742.306408@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:30:03 -0600 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Michael Sierchio Subject: Re: Natural stone tables In-Reply-To: <3C6FF419.7020900@potentialtech.com> References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <3C6FD7D0.1020908@tenebras.com> <15471.62020.879916.76383@guru.mired.org> <3C6FF419.7020900@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > What's needed is spam reduction technology. TMDA could deal with this > > in a way that was painless for subscribers and nearly painless for > > non-subscribers. Now that I've installed it, the only spam I get is > > from the freebsd lists. But - who do we talk to about getting it done? > Isn't this like mandating that the entire population of the US wear > bullet-proof vests intead of arresting the people who are shooting? You may have misunderstood me. I'm not advocating that everyone install TMDA. I'm advocating that TMDA be installed at freebsd.org, and used to filter mail to the lists. If you're arguing that spam reduction software is inferior to arresting the spammers, I won't argue. The problem is that we're a long way from being able to arrest spammers, and the spam reduction software is here now. There's no reason we can't use what's available while waiting for something better to become possible. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 10:46:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7869B37B402 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC70BDC3; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23757; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:46:41 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1HImS901235; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?) References: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20020216134025.01cfd980@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216134025.01cfd980@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 07:23 PM 2/15/2002, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > >"Real Programmers can write Fortran in any language." To quote from an > >old, and quite funny, list of things that Real Programmers do and don't > >do. > > > >It was my first language. Fortunately I was soon introduced to Algol. > > Funny thing about Algol: When Algol-60 (which had some features that > neither FORTRAN nor C has, such as range and bounds checking) for > UNIVAC hardware was completed, scientists at Case Institute > of Technology (where I did my undergraduate degree) ported some old > government code over and tried to run it. The machine immediately > reported runtime errors. Variables were undefined; subscripts were > going out of bounds; the results that were produced if the errors > were ignored were virtually random. > > And now the punch line: the code they'd ported had been used in > the design of nuclear weapons. > > I trust neither FORTRAN nor C to this day. As someone with lots of FORTRAN experience, some with old FORTRAN and porting, it's easy to guess that the FORTRAN-to-Algol porters failed to understand what was going on in the FORTRAN program. Genius (and other) level scientists and engineers, working to deadlines in environments that placed no merit on readability or any other "good" coding standards, can generate FORTRAN that nobody but them can understand before the need has passed. And these guys were usually smart enough to check their work for reasonableness (eg, with sliderules) or by other methods. I've checked old code by eye and with analysers and found lots of problems and a lot more things that looked like problems until closer examination revealed them to not be errors or to not matter much. With one big port (between CPUs and FORTRAN versions), the stuff was just so full of horrors that I knew I couldn't understand it well enough to maintain it and was allowed to redevelop most of it from scratch, getting a new program that produced essentially the same results as the old. No doubt much such coding was full of real, significant errors, but it usually takes a great deal of work to prove that one way or the other. Surely better languages and code design/coding practices would have helped, but I (and other several other engineers I've known) have come to believe that the old timers knew the math and physics of what they were doing better than us youngsters who tend to spend too much of our efforts worring about programming issues. The trustworthiness of the developers can be more important than the trustworthiness of the language they use. Both are important. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 11:34:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73D537B402 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0DBDBF; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01040; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:34:36 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1HJaND01241; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) References: <20020216180815.J91166-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:36:22 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7zsn7zgatl.n7z@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Doug White wrote: > > > > Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. > > Works in Windows: Not a VAIO problem, it's a FreeBSD > problem. > > Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better > than FreeBSD programmers? I think I get the point, but I'll bite the troll anyway. Saying that it's a FreeBSD problem and not a VAIO problem is like saying that a dead battery is a driver's problem and not a car problem. A dead battery IS a car problem and a non-standard (and closed) ACPI implementation in a VAIO IS a VAIO problem, unless we don't share a common language. In cases like this the particular Windows programmers involved usually ARE better (at least a lot faster), because of their better access to VAIO designers and/or design documents than FreeBSD programmers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 13:12:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A8B037B435 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0109011322; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:16:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C701BF5.F140C988@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:09:09 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) References: <20020216180815.J91166-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> <7zsn7zgatl.n7z@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > Doug White wrote: > > > > > > Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. > > > > Works in Windows: Not a VAIO problem, it's a FreeBSD > > problem. > > > > Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better > > than FreeBSD programmers? > > I think I get the point, but I'll bite the troll anyway. > > Saying that it's a FreeBSD problem and not a VAIO problem is like saying > that a dead battery is a driver's problem and not a car problem. A > dead battery IS a car problem and a non-standard (and closed) ACPI > implementation in a VAIO IS a VAIO problem, unless we don't share a > common language. > > In cases like this the particular Windows programmers involved usually > ARE better (at least a lot faster), because of their better access to > VAIO designers and/or design documents than FreeBSD programmers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message With all that said, I'm pretty happy with my Vaio. Of course console bigger than VESA would be nice. I wish I understood the FBSD internals enough to take on that project. I think Sony now has better video chips than the Intel 815. Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 15:29:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC2137B402 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0152.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.152] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cak9-0001Pt-00; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:29:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C703CC3.84C65471@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:29:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?) References: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20020216134025.01cfd980@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Brett Glass writes: > > And now the punch line: the code they'd ported had been used in > > the design of nuclear weapons. > > > > I trust neither FORTRAN nor C to this day. > > As someone with lots of FORTRAN experience, some with old FORTRAN and > porting, it's easy to guess that the FORTRAN-to-Algol porters failed to > understand what was going on in the FORTRAN program. Genius (and other) > level scientists and engineers, working to deadlines in environments > that placed no merit on readability or any other "good" coding standards, > can generate FORTRAN that nobody but them can understand before the need > has passed. And these guys were usually smart enough to check their > work for reasonableness (eg, with sliderules) or by other methods. I've > checked old code by eye and with analysers and found lots of problems > and a lot more things that looked like problems until closer examination > revealed them to not be errors or to not matter much. With one big > port (between CPUs and FORTRAN versions), the stuff was just so full of > horrors that I knew I couldn't understand it well enough to maintain it > and was allowed to redevelop most of it from scratch, getting a new > program that produced essentially the same results as the old. > > No doubt much such coding was full of real, significant errors, but it > usually takes a great deal of work to prove that one way or the other. In the relatavistically invariant particle collision code I worked on for pair production simulations, there were intentional overflows used as part of the random sequence generation. In other words, this "bug" was intentional, and not a bug. > Surely better languages and code design/coding practices would have > helped, but I (and other several other engineers I've known) have come > to believe that the old timers knew the math and physics of what they > were doing better than us youngsters who tend to spend too much of our > efforts worring about programming issues. Yep. I'm of the same opinion. I had one professor who would not accept the results of an integration that had an equation "+ C", unless you could tell him what the value of the constant of integration was. He also insisted that you know the answer you expected before you ran your equations, so you would recognize a result that was incorrect vs. one that was correct, but unexpected. His PhD thesis at Utah State University predicted the W particle energy range to 5 significant digits ~1968, from a theoretical basis. This man has more physics in his pinky than the rest of us... well, you get the idea 8-). > The trustworthiness of the developers can be more important than the > trustworthiness of the language they use. Both are important. Yep. Hence my response: "Did they work anyway?". 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 16: 2:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5904E37B404 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0152.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.152] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cbGA-0007al-00; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:02:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C704485.5A02CBC1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:02:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) References: <20020216180815.J91166-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> <7zsn7zgatl.n7z@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Doug White wrote: > > > > > > Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. > > > > Works in Windows: Not a VAIO problem, it's a FreeBSD > > problem. > > > > Unless you are saying Windows Programmers are better > > than FreeBSD programmers? > > I think I get the point, but I'll bite the troll anyway. > > Saying that it's a FreeBSD problem and not a VAIO problem is like saying > that a dead battery is a driver's problem and not a car problem. A > dead battery IS a car problem and a non-standard (and closed) ACPI > implementation in a VAIO IS a VAIO problem, unless we don't share a > common language. I thought there were people on the project who were allowed to disassemble the Windows software in order to document interfaces, legally, in their countries. 8-p. I think a more apt analogy would be a car driver who could or could not use a manual clutch. > In cases like this the particular Windows programmers involved usually > ARE better (at least a lot faster), because of their better access to > VAIO designers and/or design documents than FreeBSD programmers. I've made this offer before; I'll make it again: I will *buy* a copy of V Communications "Sourcer", and mail it off to someone who is willing to disassemble a Windows driver for which there is no corresponding FreeBSD driver, and document the interfaces, so long as they are in a country where it is legal for them to do so, and they are willing to either do more drivers or pass the software on to another developer when they are done. Know any German FreeBSD users with VAIOs or other systems who are annoyed at something not working? I'd be particularly interested in a German user who was interested in getting VAIO Winmodems working, if you want to play favorities over the VAIO. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 19:56:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F19F137B400 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 64967 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 04:03:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.pt.com) (151.201.71.209) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 04:03:22 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: "Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:24:34 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Michael Sierchio References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <3C6FF419.7020900@potentialtech.com> <15471.63147.91742.306408@guru.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <15471.63147.91742.306408@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02021722243401.01477@proxy.pt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 17 February 2002 13:30, Mike Meyer wrote: > Bill Moran types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > What's needed is spam reduction technology. TMDA could deal with this > > > in a way that was painless for subscribers and nearly painless for > > > non-subscribers. Now that I've installed it, the only spam I get is > > > from the freebsd lists. But - who do we talk to about getting it done? > > > > Isn't this like mandating that the entire population of the US wear > > bullet-proof vests intead of arresting the people who are shooting? > > You may have misunderstood me. I'm not advocating that everyone > install TMDA. I'm advocating that TMDA be installed at freebsd.org, > and used to filter mail to the lists. I can see that. I meant to ask earlier and got rushed, but is there anyone who, in an official capacity, makes complaints to ISPs, etc concerning this sort of thing? I occasionally complain to the ISPs about it, but I'm not speaking on behalf of FreeBSD. I think someone stating, "On behalf of the FreeBSD community and the maintainers of the FreeBSD mailing list, I am filing an official complaint." would have a little more weight than just someone who subscribes to a mailing list. > If you're arguing that spam reduction software is inferior to > arresting the spammers, I won't argue. The problem is that we're a > long way from being able to arrest spammers, and the spam reduction > software is here now. There's no reason we can't use what's available > while waiting for something better to become possible. I can agree, mostly. The only part that I disagree with is the waiting. We (as a community) should be _doing_ something active about this. So far, everything I see seems to be directed at getting better systems to detect and reject spam mail. Someone should be lobbying the government to make some laws that can be used against these people. I know a few states have started to do some things, and that's good, but there's more that needs done. Oh well, just ranting, I guess. It's just frustrating that people can be such a$$holes. I had an idea for an autoresponder that would detect spam and tear apart the headers to determine who to complain to, as well as log it so trends (ISPs that are continually harboring spammers) could be detected and harsher action taken. There are lots of tools out there now that do a subset of this job, but nothing that I know of that does all of it. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 22: 2: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F77037B416 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:02:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1530ABD27; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:02:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20588; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:02:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1I63vb01161; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:03:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Bill Moran Cc: "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <3C6FF419.7020900@potentialtech.com> <15471.63147.91742.306408@guru.mired.org> <02021722243401.01477@proxy.pt.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Feb 2002 22:03:56 -0800 In-Reply-To: <02021722243401.01477@proxy.pt.com> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > I can see that. I meant to ask earlier and got rushed, but is there anyone > who, in an official capacity, makes complaints to ISPs, etc concerning this > sort of thing? ... > Someone should be lobbying the government to make some laws that can be > used against these people. I know a few states have started to do some things, > and that's good, but there's more that needs done. I half-heard a TV snews report in which I recall the head of the FTC asking people to send them messages from commercial spammers and that they'd go after them. I'm not sure what law/rull the spammers would be violating; I thought that's why the state laws where being made. I think they were especially (or maybe only?) asking for SPAM of the chain letter and pyramid scheme kind. So I'm guessing it isn't the SPAM itself that would be the spammer's violation, but the business practices being engaged in via the SPAM. IIRC, http://www.ftc.gov is where you look for the place to send your SPAM. I've enjoyed my new ISP (since Sep'01). I've got my e-mail on a couple of web sites and these archives and I get less than one SPAM per day (other than the many from freebsd.org). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 17 23: 8:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EC837B422 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1I77jO00591; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:07:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:07:45 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune Message-ID: <20020218180745.A349@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:07:41AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:07:41AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Sue Blake writes: > > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? > > (You Gotta) Fight for your Right (to Source Code), by the BSD Boys. I was mulling over this one echo "O2L8g.gecL2f" > /dev/speaker but both the tune and the technique might be a bit old for the current audience to grok :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 2: 0:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx02.egartech.com (aloha.egartech.com [62.118.81.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 85CA437B400 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1745 invoked by uid 85); 18 Feb 2002 10:00:20 -0000 Received: from temik@egartech.com by mx02.egartech.com with qmail-scanner-1.03 (. Clean. Processed in 0.351257 secs); 18 Feb 2002 10:00:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO turtle.egar.egartech.com) (192.168.8.4) by 0 with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 10:00:20 -0000 Received: from temikxp ([192.168.8.83]) by turtle.egar.egartech.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:00:22 +0300 Message-ID: <040601c1b863$1462b1d0$5308a8c0@egar.egartech.com> From: "Artem Tepponen" To: "Sue Blake" , References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:00:22 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2002 10:00:22.0588 (UTC) FILETIME=[145B37C0:01C1B863] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Blake" Subject: BSD Theme Tune > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? Can it be 'Berkeley California' by Eagles? ;) Regards, Artem Tepponen --- lyrics --- Berkeley California Sung to the tune "Hotel California" by the Eagles In a dark dim machine room Cool A/C in my hair Warm smell of silicon Rising up through the air Up ahead in the distance I saw a Solarian(tm) light My kernel grew heavy, and my disk grew slim I had to halt(8) for the night The backup spun in the tape drive I heard a terminal bell And I was thinking to myself This could be BSD or USL Then they started a lawsuit And they showed me the way There were salesmen down the corridor I thought I heard them say Welcome to Berkeley California Such a lovely place Such a lovely place (backgrounded) Such a lovely trace(1) Plenty of jobs at Berkeley California Any time of year Any time of year (backgrounded) You can find one here You can find one here Their code was definately twisted But they've got the stock market trends They've got a lot of pretty, pretty lawyers That they call friends How they dance in the courtroom See BSDI sweat Some sue to remember Some sue to forget So I called up Kernighan Please bring me ctime(3) He said We haven't had that tm_year since 1969 And still those functions are calling from far away Wake up Jobs in the middle of the night Just to hear them say Welcome to Berkeley California Such a lovely Place Such a lovely Place (backgrounded) Such a lovely trace(1) They're livin' it up suing Berkeley California What a nice surprise What a nice surprise (backgrounded) Bring your alibies Windows NT a dreaming Pink OS on ice And they said We are all just prisoners here Of a marketing device And in the judges's chambers They gathered for the feast They diff(1)'d the source code listings But they can't kill -9 the beast Last thing I remember I was restore(8)'ing | more(1) I had to find the soft link back to the path I was before sleep(3) said the pagedaemon We are programmed to recv(2) You can swap out any time you like But you can never leave(1) [ substitute whirring of disk and tape drives for guitar solo ] Written by David Barr and Ken Hornstein and a little help from Greg Nagy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 8: 4: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CCDC37B404 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68650 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 16:10:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.pt.com) (151.201.71.209) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 16:10:25 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:31:34 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <02021722243401.01477@proxy.pt.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02021810313400.01558@proxy.pt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 18 February 2002 01:03, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > > I can see that. I meant to ask earlier and got rushed, but is there > > anyone who, in an official capacity, makes complaints to ISPs, etc > > concerning this sort of thing? > > ... > > > Someone should be lobbying the government to make some laws that can be > > used against these people. I know a few states have started to do some > > things, and that's good, but there's more that needs done. > > I half-heard a TV snews report in which I recall the head of the FTC > asking people to send them messages from commercial spammers and that > they'd go after them. I'm not sure what law/rull the spammers would be > violating; I thought that's why the state laws where being made. I think > they were especially (or maybe only?) asking for SPAM of the chain > letter and pyramid scheme kind. So I'm guessing it isn't the SPAM itself > that would be the spammer's violation, but the business practices being > engaged in via the SPAM. IIRC, http://www.ftc.gov is where you look > for the place to send your SPAM. I've used to email them every single spam mail I got (uce@ftc.gov) and never got a single response back whatsoever. Obvisiouly they don't know the first thing about communication: that if you never reply, people start to wonder if there's even anyone there. But they're the government, what do you expect. > I've enjoyed my new ISP (since Sep'01). I've got my e-mail on a couple > of web sites and these archives and I get less than one SPAM per day > (other than the many from freebsd.org). I'll trade you. RoadRunner, since the whole AOL thing, has been a hotbed of spam. I'm fairly sure that they've sold off my email address to spammers, and I'm wondering what I can do about it. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 10: 6:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astro.phpwebhosting.com (astro.phpwebhosting.com [66.33.60.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AF6E37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31023 invoked by uid 508); 18 Feb 2002 18:06:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws-XXVIII.landover.wavix.lan) (208.253.116.2) by astro.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 18:06:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:06:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) Cc: Bill Moran , "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: James Howard In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3F0E4612-249A-11D6-902B-003065BAAC62@well.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > they'd go after them. I'm not sure what law/rull the spammers would be > violating; I thought that's why the state laws where being made. I think I often argue that unsolicited email is theft of service. But this would be easier to argue in Europe where they still pay per minute. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 10:14:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601EE37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 81A785341; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:14:26 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: James Howard Cc: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Bill Moran , "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables References: <3F0E4612-249A-11D6-902B-003065BAAC62@well.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Feb 2002 19:14:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3F0E4612-249A-11D6-902B-003065BAAC62@well.com> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard writes: > I often argue that unsolicited email is theft of service. But this > would be easier to argue in Europe where they still pay per minute. We do what? Somebody must have forgotten to tell my ISP. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 10:17: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F56937B404 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69736 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.pt.com) (151.201.71.209) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: James Howard , swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:44:23 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3F0E4612-249A-11D6-902B-003065BAAC62@well.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0E4612-249A-11D6-902B-003065BAAC62@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02021812442408.01558@proxy.pt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 18 February 2002 13:06, James Howard wrote: > > they'd go after them. I'm not sure what law/rull the spammers would be > > violating; I thought that's why the state laws where being made. I think > > I often argue that unsolicited email is theft of service. But this > would be easier to argue in Europe where they still pay per minute. Perhaps that time is returning to the US? I've seen a recent surge in the number of ISPs that are offering per-hour rates recently. It seems there are a whole lot of people who only use the internet for a few hours a month and think it's crazy to pay $25 for unlimited usage. When someone comes along and offers $5/month for up to 4 hours and $1 for each additional hour, it looks pretty promising. It's still theft of service ... especially if you're a large company paying for a high-speed connection, you could estimate what percentage of your connection is being tied up with spam and quote that $$$ figure in your complaint! -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 10:54:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astro.phpwebhosting.com (astro.phpwebhosting.com [66.33.60.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E354137B402 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5212 invoked by uid 508); 18 Feb 2002 18:54:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws-XXVIII.landover.wavix.lan) (208.253.116.2) by astro.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 18:54:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:54:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) Cc: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Bill Moran , "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: James Howard In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 01:14 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > James Howard writes: >> I often argue that unsolicited email is theft of service. But this >> would be easier to argue in Europe where they still pay per minute. > > We do what? Somebody must have forgotten to tell my ISP. I'd always heard that, in Europe, all phone calls were metered. J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 11:43:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83D037B41C for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D382B5343; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:43:41 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: James Howard Cc: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Bill Moran , "Mike Meyer" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Feb 2002 20:43:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard writes: > On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 01:14 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > We do what? Somebody must have forgotten to tell my ISP. > I'd always heard that, in Europe, all phone calls were metered. *glances at his Cisco 677i* What do phone calls have to do with the Internet? I don't know about the rest of Europe, but DSL and cable are becoming very widespread in Norway, and even those who do use a dialup don't pay more than maybe a dollar an hour (and no more than half that if their ISP is also a telco, as most are) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 13:46:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 79B4B37B417 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 36651 invoked by uid 100); 18 Feb 2002 21:46:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15473.30252.284927.675013@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:46:20 -0600 To: Bill Moran Cc: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables In-Reply-To: <02021810313400.01558@proxy.pt.com> References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <02021722243401.01477@proxy.pt.com> <02021810313400.01558@proxy.pt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran types: > On Monday 18 February 2002 01:03, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > I'll trade you. RoadRunner, since the whole AOL thing, has been a hotbed of > spam. I'm fairly sure that they've sold off my email address to spammers, and > I'm wondering what I can do about it. I had roadrunner for over a year, and never got any spam at the email address they provided me. Of course, I never published it anywhere, either. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 13:50:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DDD37B42F for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 732B418F5; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A67418F4; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Mike Meyer Cc: Bill Moran , "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables In-Reply-To: <15473.30252.284927.675013@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Monday 18 February 2002 01:03, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > I'll trade you. RoadRunner, since the whole AOL thing, has been a hotbed of > > spam. I'm fairly sure that they've sold off my email address to spammers, and > > I'm wondering what I can do about it. > > I had roadrunner for over a year, and never got any spam at the email > address they provided me. Of course, I never published it anywhere, > either. Perhaps you should all contact your congress(persons,) and encourage them to put in place anti-spam laws... it helped for the broadcast fax advertisements... it'll help for email. Rick ******************************************************************* New home page: http://1nova.com Ace Logan's Hardware Guide @ http://www.markeedragon.com FreeBSD - The power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 14: 3:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52B5A37B404 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71734 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 22:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.pt.com) (151.201.71.209) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 22:10:26 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: "Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:02:34 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020217114119.HKOG24881.mailhost.det.ameritech.net@ameritech.net> <02021810313400.01558@proxy.pt.com> <15473.30252.284927.675013@guru.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <15473.30252.284927.675013@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0202181702340E.01558@proxy.pt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 18 February 2002 16:46, Mike Meyer wrote: > Bill Moran types: > > On Monday 18 February 2002 01:03, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > I'll trade you. RoadRunner, since the whole AOL thing, has been a hotbed > > of spam. I'm fairly sure that they've sold off my email address to > > spammers, and I'm wondering what I can do about it. > > I had roadrunner for over a year, and never got any spam at the email > address they provided me. Of course, I never published it anywhere, > either. I've never published mine either, but for some reason I get 20 or so spam emails a day directed right at that address. In fact I don't even use the address, when I'm working from home I forward my potentialtech.com email to my rr account, but outgoing mail still says it comes from potentialtech.com. Funny, as well ... I recenty got a spam that came FROM one of rr's mail servers, so I sent a complaint to their abuse@ address and the fscking autoresponder claims that "we have determined that this is not related to roadrunner" Bullshit ... Now I'm bitter. This is one of those days that I wish I could hide in a fscking hole and tell the rest of the world to go to hell. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 21:33:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 871B137B404 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:33:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 63709 invoked by uid 100); 19 Feb 2002 05:33:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15473.58285.236545.514222@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:33:33 -0600 To: Peter Ulrich Kruppa Cc: Mike Meyer , "D. Michael McFarland" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice sought re MS Office compatibility In-Reply-To: <20020219062359.Q7320-100000@pukruppa.de> References: <15473.46758.516892.756570@guru.mired.org> <20020219062359.Q7320-100000@pukruppa.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -questions to -chat] Peter Ulrich Kruppa types: > On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > D. Michael McFarland types: > > > Word and PowerPoint are necessities, unless I refuse to even pretend > > > to MS Office compatibility. No one is yet asking me to use Exel. > > > (Does it still claim -1^2 == +1?) > > I don't know, but the bc provided with FreeBSD does: > > > > guru% bc > > bc 1.06 > > Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000 Free Software Foundation, Inc. > > This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. > > For details type `warranty'. > > -1^2 > > 1 > > Because of ambiguities in common mathematical notation, > There is no ambiguity in (in this) mathematical notation. > -1^2 = -1 > (-1)^2 = +1 Nope. The first one is ambiguous, because you don't know the precedence of the negation operator with respect to the power operator. I'd say the unambiguous parsing you gave was the the most commonly used of the two choices the ambiguous parsing gives. > > there's at > > least one parsing for which it's the right answer. > So these parsings are wrong. No, mixing infix, postfix and prefix notations is wrong. Which of the multitude of ambiguities doing so results in you prefer is just that - a preference. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 22:27:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D36037B402 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a148.otenet.gr [212.205.215.148]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1J6RQY3029999; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:27:27 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1J6Jir23615; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:19:44 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:19:44 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: James Howard , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Bill Moran , Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Natural stone tables Message-ID: <20020219061943.GA23114@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-02-18 20:43, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > James Howard writes: > > On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 01:14 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > We do what? Somebody must have forgotten to tell my ISP. > > I'd always heard that, in Europe, all phone calls were metered. > > *glances at his Cisco 677i* What do phone calls have to do with the > Internet? > > I don't know about the rest of Europe, but DSL and cable are becoming > very widespread in Norway, and even those who do use a dialup don't > pay more than maybe a dollar an hour (and no more than half that if > their ISP is also a telco, as most are) True. At least, as far as rates in Greece are concerned. Here, using a dialup line costs about 200 drachmas/hour, which is less than a dollar. And that's with the high rates of 08:00 am - 10:00 pm. After 10:00 pm, the rate is much lower for dialup calls. More like 60 drachmas, which would be something close to 15 cents. Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 22:31: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FE437B402 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1J6VSx07158; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:31:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:31:27 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rob , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) In-Reply-To: <3C6F8896.CDB8A2FE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020218222817.Y2222-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. > > Works in Windows: Not a VAIO problem, it's a FreeBSD > problem. We're just ahead of the curve. Windows doesnt use 90% of ACPI ATM. Intel provided a full ACPI interpretation implementation and we support most of the devices and features. Linux uses the same implementation and has the same bugs, so hopefully the combined force can convince hardware makers to at least test their DSDTs. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 18 22:35:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79F437B402 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1J6ZeU07280; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:35:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:35:40 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Terry Lambert , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius:) In-Reply-To: <7zsn7zgatl.n7z@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20020218223149.C2222-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Feb 2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Saying that it's a FreeBSD problem and not a VAIO problem is like saying > that a dead battery is a driver's problem and not a car problem. A > dead battery IS a car problem and a non-standard (and closed) ACPI > implementation in a VAIO IS a VAIO problem, unless we don't share a > common language. Well, here's the funny part ... ACPI is fully open. You can download the spec, download Intel's free implementation, and disassemble the in-BIOS ACPI code with acpidump(8). Then you can fix it, recompile the code with Intel's ASL compiler, and use loader(8) to load your fixed code and use it instead. I've done this on my HP laptop to get around an inifinite recusion bug. The problem is dealing with any custom wierd crap that the vendor's ACPI code dinks with. HP case in point, they write to some very odd registers for the embedded controller, and there is some Magic Sequence to enable said controller that we're missing. Otherwise, the code to do power state changes, inquiry temperature, get battery status, etc. is all there. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 19 18:20:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com (mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com [212.74.112.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BB137B4D6 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [62.64.204.18] (helo=cream.org) by mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #3) id 16dMMb-000OTc-00; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:20:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3C7307FE.1010908@cream.org> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:20:46 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Bill Moran , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natural stone tables References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > > I'd always heard that, in Europe, all phone calls were metered. That's pretty inaccurate these days I think, certainly in the UK anyway. People using dialup modems can opt for many different unmetered systems, one of the most common being FRIACO (Flat Rate Internet Access Call Origination), or SurfTime a service offered by British Telecommunications for flat rate call access to any participating ISP. And that's before you get into ADSL and cable modems, both of which are of course unmetered. Unmetered voice phone calls are also now available for a monthly fee with most telecoms companies. Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 19 18:46:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (CPE0080c8f2c614.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9587437B404 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23865 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 02:46:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (192.168.1.2) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 02:46:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 1748 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Feb 2002 02:45:16 -0000 To: chat@freebsd.org, chat@gtabug.org Subject: System to boot off CD-ROM, and into MFS X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Reply-To: agenkin-dated-1015380944.4c2893@thpoon.com Mail-Reply-To: agenkin-dated-1015380945.da0533@thpoon.com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:45:15 -0500 Message-ID: <87k7t8euro.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, i686-pc-linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Arcady Genkin" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; linux-i686) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to create a functional FreeBSD system, which would boot off a bootable CD-ROM, then transfer all necessary files into an MFS, and operate after that completely independent of the CD-ROM (especially, it needs to be tolerant to IDE device failures). The memory size can be around 256M, so I don't think that I need to go the way of PicoBSD. I'm looking for a starting point for this project. Any articles on creating a bootable FreeBSD cd-roms? I guess that there has to be some mechanism to transfer the needed files into the MFS system, once the kernel has loaded, but before it mounted the root file system (because the root file system is going to be on MFS). The installation system must be doing something like that. Is that documented somewhere? Many thanks for any pointers, -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everyting you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 19 19:12:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h97.c194.tor.velocet.net (H97.C194.tor.velocet.net [216.138.194.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D222337B41B for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75237 invoked by uid 0); 20 Feb 2002 03:12:08 -0000 Received: from h97.c194.tor.velocet.net (HELO jester) (216.138.194.97) by 192.168.1.11 with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 03:12:08 -0000 Message-ID: <04c001c1b9bc$6b70cf70$8001a8c0@jester> From: "Rod Taylor" To: , , References: <87k7t8euro.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Subject: Re: gtabug - System to boot off CD-ROM, and into MFS Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:10:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excellent project. You might want to look into the bootable ISO, and rc.diskless1, rc.diskless2 scripts (or their equivelent). There is a section in the handbook about making a diskless workstation as well -- which is basically what you're attempting. Finally, if you accomplish something significant I'm sure there are lots of people who would also be interested in using something like this (I'm one of them). Making generation of the disk set a part of the BSD make world system would be a good way to ensure it's kept working with future revisions (convince the release engineer to test it out or even use it to fire up the installer in the case of FreeBSD and their new Graphical Installer). I heavily suggest looking into devfs for /dev. At RCC I had converted the lab to a diskless scenario at one point during some of our meetings out there. Used one of Geoffry's machines. Quite fun. Worked ok, but I can think of lots of things I would have changed about it. If I wasn't knee deep in the addition of DOMAIN support for PostgreSQL I'd pitch in to help. -- Rod Taylor This message represents the official view of the voices in my head ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arcady Genkin" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:45 PM Subject: gtabug - System to boot off CD-ROM, and into MFS > I'd like to create a functional FreeBSD system, which would boot off a > bootable CD-ROM, then transfer all necessary files into an MFS, and > operate after that completely independent of the CD-ROM (especially, > it needs to be tolerant to IDE device failures). The memory size can > be around 256M, so I don't think that I need to go the way of PicoBSD. > > I'm looking for a starting point for this project. Any articles on > creating a bootable FreeBSD cd-roms? I guess that there has to be > some mechanism to transfer the needed files into the MFS system, once > the kernel has loaded, but before it mounted the root file system > (because the root file system is going to be on MFS). The > installation system must be doing something like that. Is that > documented somewhere? > > Many thanks for any pointers, > -- > Arcady Genkin > Don't read everyting you believe. > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@gtabug.org with the text > "subscribe chat" or "unsubscribe chat" in the body. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 19 22:53:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A9437B402 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020220065336.DOGI2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org> for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:53:36 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1K6rap24447 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:53:36 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X Message-ID: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interesting remark in the last sentence I quote. I'm sure there are elements of NeXt in there, but I don't think that statement is accurate. Last I knew, Mac OS X was primarily BSD-based, specifically, FreeBSD. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&u=/nm/20020220/tc_nm/tech_be_microsoft_dc_5 Be Sues Microsoft for 'Destruction' of Business Tue Feb 19, 8:11 PM ET By Scott Hillis SEATTLE (Reuters) - Be Inc. , the failed maker of a computer operating system hailed by some as an elegant rival to Microsoft Corp.'s dominant Windows platform, said on Tuesday it is suing the software giant for allegedly destroying its business through anti-competitive practices. [snip] Gassee, according to the book "Apple Confidential," wanted $200 million. Apple eventually bought Next, a company started by Steve Jobs (news - web sites), Apple's co-founder and former chief executive, for $400 million. The Next operating system now powers Apple's newest computers in the form of Mac OS X (news - web sites). [snip] -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 0: 1:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E736F37B417 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 76853 invoked by uid 100); 20 Feb 2002 08:01:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15475.22471.133842.350510@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:01:11 -0600 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Crist J. Clark types: > Interesting remark in the last sentence I quote. I'm sure there are > elements of NeXt in there, but I don't think that statement is > accurate. Last I knew, Mac OS X was primarily BSD-based, specifically, > FreeBSD. Well, others know better than I, but I thought Mac OS X used the Mach kernel along with the BSD layer and FreeBSD's userland code. NeXT was based on the Mach kernel. It may well be that Apple used the NeXT version of the Mach kernel. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 2:12: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17F237B402; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0143.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.143] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16dTjF-0000su-00; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C737667.7A05B7C9@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:11:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X References: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > Interesting remark in the last sentence I quote. I'm sure there are > elements of NeXt in there, but I don't think that statement is > accurate. Last I knew, Mac OS X was primarily BSD-based, specifically, > FreeBSD. Interestingly, it came down to a difference of $5M in price, not the reported $75M, where Gassee would not budge, when Apple was in talks with Be to acquire BeOS (according to insiders). Another interesting tidbit here is that the Microsoft EULA did, at one time, prohibit the use of non-Microsoft boot blocks when booting a Microsoft OS, or the license was voided by the user, so they have a small case there. The "and design an OS the right way. And that is exactly what they did." comment is, at best, laughable. The OS lacks per user credentials, which makes it fairly useless as a file server, and also fairly useless for multiuser operation, and also fairly useless as a network client machine, since there's no barrier point where you could implement single sign-on (Windows 98 corrected this defect of Windows 95, which would let you start the task manager and run the explorer.exe program without logging in through the credential capture point -- i.e. it was not a barrier). The reference to NeXTStep is valid: the Mac OS X is a Mach based system with a BSD UNIX single server on top of it, just as NeXTStep was. FreeBSD is the single server, and provides driver, FS, and other technology. I can't speak for whether Aqua or Carbon are derived from the NeXTStep GUI, but I'd be incredibly surprised if they threw that code away, after paying $400M for NeXT, Inc.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 2:13:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E3F37B400; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1KADMc22751; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:13:22 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15475.22471.133842.350510@guru.mired.org> References: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> <15475.22471.133842.350510@guru.mired.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outl Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:10:27 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , "Crist J. Clark" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:01 AM -0600 2002/02/20, Mike Meyer wrote: > Well, others know better than I, but I thought Mac OS X used the Mach > kernel along with the BSD layer and FreeBSD's userland code. NeXT was > based on the Mach kernel. It may well be that Apple used the NeXT > version of the Mach kernel. In the list of responses to , we find the following: >> Re:No >> >> by MaxVlast on Mon 18 Feb 03:20PM (Score:4, Interesting) (#3026255) >> (User #103795 Info) http://www.sla.to/ [ Neutral ] >> >> Do you know what that means? "Based on NeXT" doesn't mean anything. >> NeXT was a company. >> >> Mac OS X is based on OpenStep 4.2, which, itself, was based on >> NEXTSTEP 3.3. NEXTSTEP is a BSD operating system running on a >> modified version of the Mach microkernel. OpenStep is a API >> specification and a set of libraries that conforms to that API. >> OpenStep 4.2 (the operating system) is an implementation of those >> libraries on top of NEXTSTEP. >> >> When Apple bought NeXT, they planned to build on top of OpenStep. >> They first produced Rhapsody for PPC and Rhapsody for Intel. They >> were the same OS running on two hardware platforms. On top of >> Rhapsody, Apple put the Blue Box, which was a Macintosh >> compatibility environment. At no time was there any need for a "BSD >> compatibility layer." It was all software running on top of BSD. >> Apple then killed Rhapsody for Intel (and the Yellow Box, but that's >> tangential.) >> >> What was left was released as Mac OS Server. >> >> Mac OS X 10.0 and Mac OS Server 10.0 (and further versions) are also >> BSD operating systems. They have the Cocoa (OpenStep) and Carbon >> libraries available, and the imaging system is called Aqua >> (replacement for Display PostScript.) At no point in any of this is >> there a need for any UNIX compatibility layer, as it is all real >> UNIX. The only compatibility environment necessary is for Mac OS 9 >> (Classic.) Only certain older applications (Carbon) can run natively >> on OS X, so for running non-Carbon apps, Mac OS 9 is run in a >> compatibility environment (similar, but not the same as VMWare.) >> >> I hope that clarifies things. >> >> -- >> There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe. >> Max V. >> NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome This is the best description I've seen yet of the various underpinnings of the MacOS X operating system. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 3:39:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CBC37B405; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6293F5341; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:39:48 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X References: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Feb 2002 12:39:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020219225335.U48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > Interesting remark in the last sentence I quote. I'm sure there are > elements of NeXt in there, but I don't think that statement is > accurate. Last I knew, Mac OS X was primarily BSD-based, specifically, > FreeBSD. A sizeable portion of the GUI layer is based on NeXT. I don't know how much exactly, but I imagine Jordan does. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 5:27:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CEAE37B404 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15125 invoked by uid 0); 20 Feb 2002 13:27:44 -0000 Received: from pd9e51e13.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO imarco.dyndns.org) (217.229.30.19) by mail.gmx.net (mp013-rz3) with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 13:27:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:24:40 +0100 Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) From: Marco Reichwald To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3C737667.7A05B7C9@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <31DEC304-2605-11D6-B3F3-0030657BC400@gmx.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 11:11 AM, Terry Lambert wrote: > I can't speak for whether Aqua or Carbon are derived from the NeXTStep > GUI, but I'd be incredibly surprised if they threw that code away, after > paying $400M for NeXT, Inc.. Aqua is just the "Look-and-Feel" on the very top. Carbon is an API to port classic apps to OSX. Cocoa is the thing derived from NeXTStep. Most functioncalls and datatypes still begin with NS* Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 12:27:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C553037B402; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1KKQNV30738; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:26:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting Comment about Mac OS X In-Reply-To: Message from Dag-Erling Smorgrav of "20 Feb 2002 12:39:47 +0100." Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:26:23 -0800 Message-ID: <30734.1014236783@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cocoa, the Objective-C and Java UI library of choice, is based on NeXTStep/OpenStep with a lot of additional enhancements for multimedia content delivery (which, as I understand it, NeXT was a little thin on). The actual 2D/window system layer, Quartz, is an entirely new creation which is based on PDF rather than NeXT's Display Postscript model. - Jordan > "Crist J. Clark" writes: > > Interesting remark in the last sentence I quote. I'm sure there are > > elements of NeXt in there, but I don't think that statement is > > accurate. Last I knew, Mac OS X was primarily BSD-based, specifically, > > FreeBSD. > > A sizeable portion of the GUI layer is based on NeXT. I don't know > how much exactly, but I imagine Jordan does. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 19:51:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from go4.ext.ti.com (dlezb.ext.ti.com [192.91.75.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3178737B404 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com ([157.170.134.88]) by go4.ext.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1L3pqc26385 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:51:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00655 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:51:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00632 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:51:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from paspcsham (dhcp86222 [157.87.86.222]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:21:49 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <004301c1ba8b$c1206230$de56579d@india.ti.com> From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: list active ? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:26:34 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org just testing. is this list ever active ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 20:12:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from go4.ext.ti.com (dlezb.ext.ti.com [192.91.75.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3804A37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com ([157.170.134.88]) by go4.ext.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1L4CYc06902 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:12:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15403 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:12:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15375 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:12:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from paspcsham (dhcp86222 [157.87.86.222]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA16565 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:42:31 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <00e801c1ba8e$a563ad60$de56579d@india.ti.com> From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" References: <004301c1ba8b$c1206230$de56579d@india.ti.com> Subject: Re: list active ? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:47:16 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This list just returned a mail to an address that wasn't subscribed to it. is that normal ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: list active ? > just testing. is this list ever active ? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 20 21:33:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4071B37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16dlrC-0006JQ-00; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:33:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:33:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Gautham Ganapathy Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: list active ? In-Reply-To: <00e801c1ba8e$a563ad60$de56579d@india.ti.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Gautham Ganapathy wrote: > This list just returned a mail to an address that wasn't subscribed to it. > is that normal ? http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > > just testing. is this list ever active ? http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 6:13: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate2.Cadence.COM (mailgate2.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00F237B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com (exmbx01camb.Cadence.COM [194.32.100.67]) by mailgate2.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21628 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc598cam ([194.32.96.109]) by exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:12:39 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> From: "Duncan Barclay" To: Subject: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:12:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2002 14:12:39.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1A628A0:01C1BAE1] X-Received: By mailgate2.Cadence.COM as GAA21628 at Thu Feb 21 06:12:39 2002 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks and address books? I tend to use a mix of remote Windows machines whilst away from home, and at home FreeBSD. Email is well served with IMAP, but I get frustrated with bookmarks/addresses being scattered over multiple machines. I would want to have a solution that works with IE5, Outlook Express, Netscape and XFMail. I would be storing the data on my home FreeBSD machines, connected via a cable modem and can therefore set anything appropate up. Duncan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 6:22:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3D37B42F for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1LEMFK00026; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:22:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29489; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:22:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7503E6.43549115@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:27:50 -0600 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Duncan Barclay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We use LDAP for our address book (global) at our company. Most clients can use it. Eric Duncan Barclay wrote: > Hi > > Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks > and address books? I tend to use a mix of remote Windows machines whilst > away from home, and at home FreeBSD. Email is well served with IMAP, but I > get frustrated with bookmarks/addresses being scattered over multiple > machines. I would want to have a solution that works with IE5, Outlook > Express, Netscape and XFMail. > > I would be storing the data on my home FreeBSD machines, connected via a > cable modem and can therefore set anything appropate up. > > Duncan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 9:55:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFBC37B405 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 04B5C5343; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:55:09 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Duncan Barclay" Cc: Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Feb 2002 18:55:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Duncan Barclay" writes: > Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks > and address books? LDAP for the address book, and a link farm CGI script for the bookmarks (i.e. keep your bookmark list on the web rather than in your browser) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 10:51:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35DE37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1LIppK06702; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:51:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07217; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:51:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:50:00 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What specifically is a "link farm CGI script"? I can come to my own conclusion, but I'm interested in the real one. :D Eric Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Duncan Barclay" writes: > > Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks > > and address books? > > LDAP for the address book, and a link farm CGI script for the > bookmarks (i.e. keep your bookmark list on the web rather than in your > browser) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 10:55: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2C337B41D for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B1A885341; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:54:51 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Feb 2002 19:54:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > What specifically is a "link farm CGI script"? I can come to my own > conclusion, but I'm interested in the real one. :D A CGI script that manages and presents a set of links (or bookmarks, if you prefer). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 10:57:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0D337B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1LIvHK06841; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:57:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07359; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:57:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:55:25 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a form? Just curious.. Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > What specifically is a "link farm CGI script"? I can come to my own > > conclusion, but I'm interested in the real one. :D > > A CGI script that manages and presents a set of links (or bookmarks, > if you prefer). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11: 8:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904EB37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 149095341; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:08:09 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Feb 2002 20:08:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > form? Just curious.. Obviously. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11:20: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA3A37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1LJJuK07495; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:19:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08047; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:19:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7547EC.964B5E2D@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:18:04 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seems cumbersome, but I see its usefulness. Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > form? Just curious.. > > Obviously. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11:23:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA18737B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([65.94.51.59]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with SMTP id <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:23:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Jeff Leveille Reply-To: grayspace@gamebox.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:34:06 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, has anybody had success cross compiling a NetBSD kernel from their FreeBSD machine. Just curious as I need to make a small change for a crappy 386 (running NetBSD) which doesn't have enough HD space not processor speed to make building the kernel feasible. Any experience in this matter or pointers to a good refernce is appreciated. -- Jeff Leveille - quasi programmer type guy Luke the Jedi: 'but master Yoda, you told I must unlearn what I have learned, it doesn't seem to be helping...' Master Yoda: 'Live in a moldy swamp I do, listen to me you should not.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11:28: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B2C37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id A9949BC00CA; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:25:08 -0500 Message-ID: <004901c1bb0d$fab799f0$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: "Duncan Barclay" , References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> <3C7547EC.964B5E2D@centtech.com> Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:28:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd look into a PHP/MySQL solution. In fact, you could download a script, like phpLinks, already built and tailor to your needs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Anderson" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: "Duncan Barclay" ; Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? > Seems cumbersome, but I see its usefulness. > > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > > form? Just curious.. > > > > Obviously. > > > > DES > > -- > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11:34: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8136B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0500.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.245] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16dyyP-00076K-00; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:33:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:33:35 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Duncan Barclay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay wrote: > Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks > and address books? I tend to use a mix of remote Windows machines whilst > away from home, and at home FreeBSD. Email is well served with IMAP, but I > get frustrated with bookmarks/addresses being scattered over multiple > machines. I would want to have a solution that works with IE5, Outlook > Express, Netscape and XFMail. Address books: LDAP (see OpenLDAP in /usr/ports). For bookmarks: LDAP, though I have yet to see a "roaming user" profile using a non-Netscape LDAP, it's certainly theoretically possible. Now that the browser and server code are seperate, and there's no corporate advantage to maintaining a server monopoly by not documenting what's required by the browser for this, perhaps the documentation can be dragged out of AOL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 11:39:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E1BF37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69479 invoked by uid 100); 21 Feb 2002 19:39:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15477.19689.862395.15325@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:39:21 -0600 To: Eric Anderson Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? In-Reply-To: <3C7503E6.43549115@centtech.com> References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C7503E6.43549115@centtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Context recovered from top posting.] Eric Anderson types: > Duncan Barclay wrote: > > Is there a "good" solution to having a centralised store for one's bookmarks > > and address books? I tend to use a mix of remote Windows machines whilst > > away from home, and at home FreeBSD. Email is well served with IMAP, but I > > get frustrated with bookmarks/addresses being scattered over multiple > > machines. I would want to have a solution that works with IE5, Outlook > > Express, Netscape and XFMail. > We use LDAP for our address book (global) at our company. Most clients can use > it. How does that work for bookmarks? My solution to that was a custom postgresql database along with a web page that queried the database to get the list. Since it is about the simplest database backed web application possible, I did a writeup about it that can be found at . Adding a maildrop that adds adds a URL to the list completes the systems. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 12:32:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A1B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16dztX-0006uB-00; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:32:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:32:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Feb 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Eric Anderson writes: > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > form? Just curious.. > > Obviously. It would be nice if all browsers could have hooks to allow adding bookmarks and viewing bookmarks using some standard format. Then you could write whatever tool you want to manage it. So then you wouldn't have to "paste .. in to a form". For example, selecting "add bookmark" could send the URL, title, etc. to some helper application. And clicking "view bookmarks" (or whatever) would run the helper application so it could either output the top level links or categories or it could run as a standalone application. These helper tools could handle the datafile locally or remotely. It seems like I heard that konqueror allows use of some "standard" bookmark format. This would all seem valuable to me. I should write some patches for links and lynx to use some helper tools. And then write some scripts that compare new .netscape/bookmarks.html with current bookmarks data and merge in new; and also regenerate netscape bookmarks.html from master list. (For remote access, you could simply point your whatever-browser to some generated HTML list of your bookmarks and use a simple CGI form to update if needed.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 12:44:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 92E0C37B427 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 70037 invoked by uid 100); 21 Feb 2002 20:44:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15477.23596.790760.377432@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:44:28 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy C. Reed types: > On 21 Feb 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > > form? Just curious.. > > Obviously. > It would be nice if all browsers could have hooks to allow adding > bookmarks and viewing bookmarks using some standard format. Then you could > write whatever tool you want to manage it. You don't need that kind of functionality for adding bookmarks. All you need is the ability to pass a URL to an external command. w3m provides that - actually, it provides three of them, allowing you to invoke one of three differenrt "external browsers" on either the current link or the current page. > So then you wouldn't have to "paste .. in to a form". For example, > selecting "add bookmark" could send the URL, title, etc. to some helper > application. My third "external browser" in w3m is a script that adds a URL to my web-based link farm. > And clicking "view bookmarks" (or whatever) would run the helper > application so it could either output the top level links or categories or > it could run as a standalone application. The link farm means that you put one bookmark on each machine - the list of link farm. Or make it your home page. > This would all seem valuable to me. I should write some patches for links > and lynx to use some helper tools. And then write some scripts that > compare new .netscape/bookmarks.html with current bookmarks data and merge > in new; and also regenerate netscape bookmarks.html from master list. Might I suggest that your interface can be done with a near-trivial API. Let the user specify one program. If you invoke it with an argument, that argument is a URL to add to the bookmark set. If you invoke it with no arguments, then it should print to standard output an HTML page to be displayed. Whether that page is a collection of links or a link to the real web page is up to the developer of the command in question. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 16: 0:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65A37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M00LZR007177; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:30:22 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 22 Feb 2002 11:30:21 +1130 Message-Id: <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 07:03, Terry Lambert wrote: > Address books: LDAP (see OpenLDAP in /usr/ports). Got any tips for setting up OpenLDAP for this? I've tried to get it going with no success.. My main problem has been that the schema I'm using to store stuff seems broken but I have no idea how to fix it :( --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 16: 6:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36BD37B404 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0385.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.130] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16e3EJ-0005tr-00; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:06:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:06:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See the OpenLDAP documentation. This is the most common use of OpenLDAP. -- Terry Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 07:03, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Address books: LDAP (see OpenLDAP in /usr/ports). > > Got any tips for setting up OpenLDAP for this? > > I've tried to get it going with no success.. > > My main problem has been that the schema I'm using to store stuff seems > broken but I have no idea how to fix it :( > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 16:26:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7E737B402 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M0PhZR007814; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:55:46 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 22 Feb 2002 11:55:43 +1130 Message-Id: <1014337548.3564.41.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 11:36, Terry Lambert wrote: > See the OpenLDAP documentation. This is the most common > use of OpenLDAP. I've tried it(net/openldap2), but the server kept choking on the data netscape was trying to send. (I admit this is a lame bug report but I gave up in much frustration and nuked it) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 17:37:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713B037B404 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020222013728.HZGR1147.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 01:37:28 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1M1bR682440; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:37:27 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jeff Leveille Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile Message-ID: <20020221173727.F48401@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there>; from grayspace@gamebox.net on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:34:06PM -0500 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:34:06PM -0500, Jeff Leveille wrote: > Hello, has anybody had success cross compiling a NetBSD kernel from their > FreeBSD machine. Just curious as I need to make a small change for a crappy > 386 (running NetBSD) which doesn't have enough HD space not processor speed > to make building the kernel feasible. Any experience in this matter or > pointers to a good refernce is appreciated. I've never made a serious attempt, but the first thing you'll notice if you try to build directly from NetBSD source is that FreeBSD and NetBSD make(1) files are not necessarily compatible. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 17:39:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [207.5.141.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAD937B405 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1M1d5L66957; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:39:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:39:04 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: Eric Anderson Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Duncan Barclay , Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? In-Reply-To: <3C7547EC.964B5E2D@centtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Seems cumbersome, but I see its usefulness. > I have a similar problem, I expect a lot of share it. I've never found anything I'm completely comfortable with thought. Putting the links in a web page is a simple solution but populating it by cutting and pasting would be tedious (oh, want to book mark that, open another browser, deal with any security you might have cut the link, maybe fill in some additional info about the link, paste). I would think if you have a small enough set of places where you are commonly browsing from it might make more sense to have some batch processes that kick off periodically and send the current bookmark files to a central point, make it responsible for merging them all together and forming a web page of it. Hell, maybe just rebuild from scratch each time if you are using the url for the key. Get a file, add it to a db, replace any duplicates if they exist. If you don't want to use them via a web page then you could go the extra step of building a new bookmark file and sending it out, keep each browser in synch. > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > > form? Just curious.. > > > > Obviously. > > > > DES > > -- > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 17:47: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C575A37B404 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07527; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:46:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020221184601.01e02e00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:46:39 -0700 To: grayspace@gamebox.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile In-Reply-To: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perry Metzger and Warner Losh were discussing how to do this at BSDCon. Both seemed to believe that it was possible. --Brett At 12:34 PM 2/21/2002, Jeff Leveille wrote: >Hello, has anybody had success cross compiling a NetBSD kernel from their >FreeBSD machine. Just curious as I need to make a small change for a crappy >386 (running NetBSD) which doesn't have enough HD space not processor speed >to make building the kernel feasible. Any experience in this matter or >pointers to a good refernce is appreciated. > >-- > >Jeff Leveille - quasi programmer type guy > >Luke the Jedi: >'but master Yoda, you told I must unlearn what I have learned, it doesn't >seem to be helping...' > >Master Yoda: >'Live in a moldy swamp I do, listen to me you should not.' > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 17:50:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C3837B416; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 2CFFA5341; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:50:26 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Jeff Leveille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile References: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> <20020221173727.F48401@blossom.cjclark.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Feb 2002 02:50:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020221173727.F48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: B> I've never made a serious attempt, but the first thing you'll notice > if you try to build directly from NetBSD source is that FreeBSD and > NetBSD make(1) files are not necessarily compatible. That's solveable in two simple steps: 1) merge NetBSD's make(1) improvements into our make(1) :) 2) use the -m option to make and specify the directory where the NetBSD .mk files reside (e.g. $HOME/netbsd/src/share/mk). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 18:14:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [207.5.141.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E55737B404 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1M2Ekt67132 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:14:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:14:46 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *note to self... proof reading is a good thing* On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Darren Henderson wrote: > I have a similar problem, I expect a lot of share it. I've never found > anything I'm completely comfortable with thought. Putting the links in a > web page is a simple solution but populating it by cutting and pasting > would be tedious (oh, want to book mark that, open another browser, deal > with any security you might have cut the link, maybe fill in some > additional info about the link, paste). ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 19: 4:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Terry.Dorm11.NCTU.edu.tw (Terry.Dorm11.NCTU.edu.tw [140.113.192.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AFA37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ijliao@localhost) by Terry.Dorm11.NCTU.edu.tw (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1M34Fk23415; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:04:15 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from ijliao) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:04:15 +0800 From: Ying-Chieh Liao To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Message-ID: <20020222030415.GA22085@terry.dragon2.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Key-Location: http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x11C02382 X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: 4E98 55CC 2866 7A90 EFD7 9DA5 ACC6 0165 11C0 2382 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:32:47 -0800, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > It would be nice if all browsers could have hooks to allow adding > bookmarks and viewing bookmarks using some standard format. Then you could > write whatever tool you want to manage it. I've tried netscape with mod_roaming (for bookmark management) really cool, but IE doesnt support this :< there's also a bookmark exchange language (XBEL), in XML form http://pyxml.sourceforge.net/topics/xbel/ but I havent try it ... FYI: http://useful.webwizards.net/wbbm.htm, a lot of web-based bookmark managers -- Testing can show the presence of bugs, but not their absence. --- Edsger W. Dijkstra --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8dbUvrMYBZRHAI4IRAmdCAJ0fOmxpBOo3tqNx4qcEhQD1S8e3HQCgu2+K JgNRaFy39z5TvxYMMRoEV2M= =2cVi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 21 23:25:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14FA37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020222072530.KCZH2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:25:30 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1M7PT283078; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:25:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:25:29 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jeff Leveille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile Message-ID: <20020221232529.H48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> <20020221173727.F48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 02:50:25AM +0100 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 02:50:25AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Crist J. Clark" writes: > B> I've never made a serious attempt, but the first thing you'll notice > > if you try to build directly from NetBSD source is that FreeBSD and > > NetBSD make(1) files are not necessarily compatible. > > That's solveable in two simple steps: > > 1) merge NetBSD's make(1) improvements into our make(1) :) The recent fix I put in make(1) did help some (not that I could find that fix in their make(1)). The real problem is that there are conflicts in each set of improvments. For example, one that you will quickly run into, FreeBSD make(1) modifiers: U Converts variable to upper-case letters. NetBSD make(1) modifiers: U newval If the variable is undefined newval is the value. This is another ODE make feature. It is handy for setting per-target CFLAGS for instance: ${_${.TARGET:T}_CFLAGS:U${DEF_CFLAGS}} Go through the modifiers for both, and you will see a lot of inconsistencies. (Just as a side note, OpenBSD make(1) does the same thing as FreeBSD for 'U.') > 2) use the -m option to make and specify the directory where the > NetBSD .mk files reside (e.g. $HOME/netbsd/src/share/mk). Yep. That's an obvious requirement. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 2:58:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saffron.via-net-works.ie (saffron.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D515C37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from butter.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.34.42] helo=cooperationireland.org) by saffron.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 16eDPC-0000IN-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:58:22 +0000 Received: from IT3 (it3 [199.107.2.144]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g1MAwDj05564 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:58:21 GMT (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20020222105729.025fd568@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:57:29 +0000 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Telecommuting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all My boss has just asked me to come up with a proposal to start allowing our staff to telecommute. I have to have an interim proposal by the middle of next week. If any other people out there have done this, what are the issues I need to be aware of ? Just looking for helpful hints/ideas. I'm based in Dublin, Ireland, where high-bandwidth connections are expensive. :-) <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 3: 5:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6E537B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from emily.cc.duth.gr (Emily.cc.duth.gr [3ffe:2d00::21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g1MB5cu18163 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:05:38 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:05:37 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: IBM x330 & FreeBSD Message-Id: <20020222130537.56f5be9f.kkonstan@duth.gr> Organization: We've heard of it X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE (i386) X-GPG-Fingerprint: 9C88 09A4 9DC0 F900 AB4B 35A4 D934 A062 6AE1 F3F4 Phone: +30541079200 Telefax: +30541072792 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, We're considering buying a bunch of new boxes over here. Among the list of possible configs are IBM's x330 systems, which look rather nice. Their sales droids however aren't very helpful when it comes to answering questions regarding the hardware... Since we're planning to run FreeBSD on them, I was wondering if anyone on the list ever used one of those succesfully. I'm particularly concerned about the ServeRAID-4Lx host adapter that doesn't seem to be supported at all... TIA, --kkonstan PS - IBM claims Linux compatibility for those systems, and they even ported their RAID management software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 3:16:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate2.Cadence.COM (mailgate2.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3072237B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com (exmbx01camb.Cadence.COM [194.32.100.67]) by mailgate2.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03456; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc598cam ([194.32.96.109]) by exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:16:29 +0000 Message-ID: <010d01c1bb92$5ecce470$6d6020c2@pc598cam> From: "Duncan Barclay" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: , References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> <20020222110004.D422@iconoplex.co.uk> Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:16:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2002 11:16:29.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[6002CC60:01C1BB92] X-Received: By mailgate2.Cadence.COM as DAA03456 at Fri Feb 22 03:16:15 2002 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Robinson" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: ; "Duncan Barclay" ; Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? > On Feb 21, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a > > > form? Just curious.. > > > > Obviously. > > Not as obvious as it would seem, although the simplest. I've just thought of > several different ways you *could* do it, but at least one of them would > require browser modification. Now that would be cool - let's suppose you > could configure mozilla or IE so that when you click 'add bookmark' it sends > the URL to a pre-configured CGI/URL on a remote system that would add it to > your list auto-magically. Or you could do something with a small frame at > the top of your browser window, and some cross-frame DHTML/javascript to > emulate something similar. In the same bar, you could have a drop down list > of your bookmarks, perhaps a small text field for google searches (emulating > the really cool 'Google Bar'), and some other cool stuff. Now you've started > it. That's my Sunday morning gone that is. Git. :-) That would be wonderful! But a lot of work. What I have only just remembered is that I managed to hack IE to email a link using the sendto menu. The hard part was to get Outlook to act as a command line mailer. I seem to rememeber that I had to use a "Form" to do it. The .bat file that Iinvoked from SendTo has this in it: @"c:\program files\microsoft office\office\outlook" /c ipm.note.bookmark /a "%1" I assume that ipm.note.bookmark was a form that sent the link as the subject line to my home. To make this "sane" I need a little DOS SMTP client really, any suggestions? LDAP seems to be the way to go for the address book. A play over the weekend methinks. Duncan > -- > Paul Robinson > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 4:13: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.Cadence.COM (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31BB37B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com (exmbx01camb.Cadence.COM [194.32.100.67]) by mailgate.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03500; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc598cam ([194.32.96.109]) by exmbx01camb.global.cadence.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:13:00 +0000 Message-ID: <011e01c1bb9a$4ce72920$6d6020c2@pc598cam> From: "Duncan Barclay" To: "Paul Robinson" Cc: References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> <20020222110004.D422@iconoplex.co.uk> <010d01c1bb92$5ecce470$6d6020c2@pc598cam> Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:13:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2002 12:13:00.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[45772B40:01C1BB9A] X-Received: By mailgate.Cadence.COM as EAA03500 at Fri Feb 22 04:13:01 2002 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiya Found a command line mailer for windows, http://www.interlog.com/~tcharron/blat.html And a modification to the batch file c:\scripts\blat.exe - -to XXX -server XXX -f dmlb -body "test" -subject "%1" Add to IE SendTo menu - so far not found how to do this on W2k. I think in the past all I needed to do was add it to the Desktop sendto menu. I look forward to the results of your Sunday morning hacking too! Duncan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 6: 5: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98B337B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1ME52K29965; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:05:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02155; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:05:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C764F9D.1343B3C5@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:03:09 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM x330 & FreeBSD References: <20020222130537.56f5be9f.kkonstan@duth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this for file serving? If it is, I've used Dell's products a lot, and have a 1tb raid system running on FreeBSD now.. FreeBSD + Dell = badass mofo Eric Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > > Hello, > > We're considering buying a bunch of new boxes over here. Among > the list of possible configs are IBM's x330 systems, which look > rather nice. Their sales droids however aren't very helpful when > it comes to answering questions regarding the hardware... Since > we're planning to run FreeBSD on them, I was wondering if anyone > on the list ever used one of those succesfully. > > I'm particularly concerned about the ServeRAID-4Lx host adapter > that doesn't seem to be supported at all... > > TIA, > > --kkonstan > > PS - IBM claims Linux compatibility for those systems, and they > even ported their RAID management software. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 7:42:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF67037B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16eHpZ-0005MD-00; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:41:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7666B7.45A9C7E2@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:41:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> <1014337548.3564.41.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 11:36, Terry Lambert wrote: > > See the OpenLDAP documentation. This is the most common > > use of OpenLDAP. > > I've tried it(net/openldap2), but the server kept choking on the data > netscape was trying to send. > > (I admit this is a lame bug report but I gave up in much frustration and > nuked it) Did you have the Netscape schema loaded? I did the original input of the Netscape schema from the documentation from Netscape and gave it to them for the v2 LDAP protocol. For v3, they had to add the OIDs back in, but the schema for everything should have been the same. Historically, Netscape Directory Server (the Netscape LDAP implementation) has had substructure schema elemenets that were used by the client when doing the writes to the LDAP directory. I'm pretty darn sure that Kurt (Zelinga; founder of the OpenLDAP project, based on the UMICH code and my patch collection, back at the start) added the Netscape compatability stuff into the OpenLDAP server as vendor extensions in order to support the calendaring and scheduling component of the commercial Communicator product. You should see the "quick start" guide; the FreeBSD ports system means you need to start at step #8: http://www.openldap.org/doc/admin/quickstart.html Personally, I use it for directing email and for resolution of IMAP4 servers with an IMAP4 proxy to permit load scaling for email. I've done the "address book thing" before, as well, but you should not that not just anyone can write data to the address book, unless they ar configured as a roaming user, and have write permission to the user section of the LDAP tree (you will need to write scripts to set this up). Probably the mailing lists are your best bet, since the documentation is lagging (I personally dislike the format of the FAQ-o-matic, but that's just my own reason for not updating the docs). See: http://www.openldap.org/lists/ You might also want to look at the LDAP books written by Howes, and the IBM REdbook, which is actually very good; see: http://www.openldap.org/faq/data/cache/75.html There are also some web sites and online articles: http://www.openldap.org/faq/data/cache/73.html -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 7:59: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C560937B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1MFwxK02619; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:59:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04927; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:58:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C766A52.1C4317FA@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:57:06 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> <1014337548.3564.41.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C7666B7.45A9C7E2@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > I'm pretty darn sure that Kurt (Zelinga; founder of the > OpenLDAP project, based on the UMICH code and my patch > collection, back at the start) added the Netscape > compatability stuff into the OpenLDAP server as vendor > extensions in order to support the calendaring and > scheduling component of the commercial Communicator > product. Speaking of that, what is a good calendaring replacement for Exchange? Does anyone know of a good solution? Can Netscape calendaring do this? From this email it sounds like it, but I'm not to familiar with the calendaring side of things. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 8: 3:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B266137B402; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16eIAC-0001iQ-00; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:03:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3C766BB7.F242D1FB@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:03:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Jeff Leveille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD -> NetBSD cross compile References: <20020221192306.YCGP4996.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> <20020221173727.F48401@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:34:06PM -0500, Jeff Leveille wrote: > > Hello, has anybody had success cross compiling a NetBSD kernel from their > > FreeBSD machine. Just curious as I need to make a small change for a crappy > > 386 (running NetBSD) which doesn't have enough HD space not processor speed > > to make building the kernel feasible. Any experience in this matter or > > pointers to a good refernce is appreciated. > > I've never made a serious attempt, but the first thing you'll notice > if you try to build directly from NetBSD source is that FreeBSD and > NetBSD make(1) files are not necessarily compatible. This should probably be fixed. Should we be taking the OpenPorts make as the system make? I would imagine it's a superset containing both sets of features (assuming there are no options flags conflicts)... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 8:25:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959EF37B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16eIVJ-0002mO-00; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:25:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7670D3.9540E171@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:24:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Daniel O'Connor , Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> <1014337548.3564.41.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C7666B7.45A9C7E2@mindspring.com> <3C766A52.1C4317FA@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like you need to visit http://www.imc.org/ -- Terry Eric Anderson wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > I'm pretty darn sure that Kurt (Zelinga; founder of the > > OpenLDAP project, based on the UMICH code and my patch > > collection, back at the start) added the Netscape > > compatability stuff into the OpenLDAP server as vendor > > extensions in order to support the calendaring and > > scheduling component of the commercial Communicator > > product. > > Speaking of that, what is a good calendaring replacement for Exchange? Does > anyone know of a good solution? Can Netscape calendaring do this? From this > email it sounds like it, but I'm not to familiar with the calendaring side of > things. > > Eric > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 13: 1:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8AD37B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1ML1i829320 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:01:44 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outl Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:00:25 +0100 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: Ice skating? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, This is a bit of a strange question for this list, but I was wondering if anyone on the list has taped the Olympic ice skating, especially the women's skating from last night? If so, I'd be glad to buy a copy from you, pay for shipping, etc.... Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 14: 1:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC2537B417 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1MM0P815136; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:00:26 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C7670D3.9540E171@mindspring.com> References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754B8F.81F5DD05@mindspring.com> <1014336024.3564.27.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C758B78.434AA49F@mindspring.com> <1014337548.3564.41.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3C7666B7.45A9C7E2@mindspring.com> <3C766A52.1C4317FA@centtech.com> <3C7670D3.9540E171@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outl Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:42:52 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , anderson@centtech.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:24 AM -0800 2002/02/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > Looks like you need to visit http://www.imc.org/ Indeed, there are quite a few registered vCard and vCalendar solutions at . -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 14:48:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D322F37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22550; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:48:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020222154649.01ed8c10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:48:19 -0700 To: anderson@centtech.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? Cc: Duncan Barclay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C75429D.DC9AE23F@centtech.com> References: <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> <3C754158.8294AED8@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:55 AM 2/21/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >So how does one add to the list easily? Paste the url's in to a form? I've seen one system in which you e-mailed them to the server (with a password to prevent someone else from messing up your bookmarks). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 17: 1:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B58037B402 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30181 invoked by uid 100); 23 Feb 2002 01:01:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15478.59893.30992.429026@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:01:41 -0600 To: Mike Doyle Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Telecommuting In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020222105729.025fd568@199.107.2.1> References: <3.0.5.32.20020222105729.025fd568@199.107.2.1> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since noe one else answered, I'll take a shot at it... Mike Doyle types: > My boss has just asked me to come up with a proposal to start allowing > our staff to telecommute. I have to have an interim proposal by > the middle of next week. If any other people out there have done this, > what are the issues I need to be aware of ? I think the single most important issue is that those who are telecommuting not feel isolated from the rest of the organization. This means that telecommuting should be limited to at most half time, and telecommuting to a meeting should be avoided at all costs. Only allow that for emergency meetings where waiting for them to come in isn't acceptable. Make sure that everyone knows who is and isn't in each day, and encourage people to go by the office of people who are in instead of sending them an email to reinforce the connection with the company. To go into the office, spend all day by yourself answering email as if you were at home, and then go home without ever having talked to anyone face-to-face is one of the most alienating things I've ever been through. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 17:29:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0283437B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1N1Teg04811 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:29:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:26:56 +0100 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: You know it's been too long... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ...since you last changed the litter, when the cats act all traumatized and like this is the biggest life-changing event in their history. Almost as if they were asking themselves: Hey! What happened to all our poo? And our pee? What is that damn human doing?!? -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 22 23:37:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2389B37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0009.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.9] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16eWjp-0005Ac-00; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:36:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3C77468F.F047A13C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:36:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Mike Doyle , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Telecommuting References: <3.0.5.32.20020222105729.025fd568@199.107.2.1> <15478.59893.30992.429026@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Doyle types: > My boss has just asked me to come up with a proposal to start allowing > our staff to telecommute. I have to have an interim proposal by > the middle of next week. If any other people out there have done this, > what are the issues I need to be aware of ? You need to ask some questions about your organization, and you need to know what to do with the answers once you get them, before you can give a plan. You are probably going to need more time, or at least, have a staged plan. Here are my rules of thumb, and how at least one staged plan that I thought was successful actually worked. -- There are people who can telecommute, and people who can't. There are managers that can manage people who telecommute, and managers who can't. What's right for your organization really depends on your managers, and the people that are under them. Some people will simply not be productive if they don't have someone breathing down their neck, or if they don't have a work socialization that they expect, e.g. they may have to see other people being productive for them to be productive, or they may simply need a synergy to be effective (sales is often this way: competition between two people within an organization is often more profound than competition with an outside, but less personal organization). There are very few technical jobs for which I would be willing to hire someone who I didn't believe was at least capable of contributing while telecommuting. Regional facetime for sales also requires that ability, or at least partial time in common with internal competition (e.g "salesman of the week/month/quarter", etc.). Likewise, there are managers who are used to managing contractors, and who are simply constitutionally unable to deal with not having weekly or even daily progress reports, counted off against a Microsoft Project schedule in hours. Other managers feel as if it's their job to run interference with the organization, and act as a buffer between outside demands and their employees, and obtain resources, etc., necessary for the employees to do their jobs effectively. Obviously, though, this can be taken to an extreme, as well. Personally, I would not hire someone who needed to be micro-managed. I would also not hire a manager of contractors -- one who felt the need to micromanage -- unless I was dealing with serious budget constraints on the people I could hire in under them, or if I were indeed utilizing contractors. For anything having to do with bottom line value of the company, production of intellectual property, job roles requiring the building of expertise, etc., I simply would not hire contractors, since at the end of the day, you don't own anything tangible, if all your organizational knowledge is invested in people instead of process, or if your ability to reproduce your product walks out the door every 6 months. There are valid reasons for ISOs. This may not seem like an answer to your question, but it is a necessary prefix to the answer. In order to come up with a plan that is correct for your situation, you have to know ahead of time about the employees, and the managers to whom they will be reporting, and how they will react to reduced lines of communication. The easiest way to start without a huge investment of resources is to set aside a couple of offices. The people who are put in these offices are "telecommuters". They are not permitted to interact with other people at work, except by phone, email, etc.: means available to them via telecommuting. If you plan to permit presence at meetings via conference calls, then they should attend via conference calls, even though they are technically in the same building. If there are meetings where you would "fly in" or require mandatory physical attendence, then make that an "office day". Do *not* permit them to use the same office for the test, and for "office days" (for example, if you are allowing them 2 or 3 days a week telecommuting, then if there is a laptop involved, allow it to be moved, but if there's an important paper that was left in one place or the other, it doesn't get retrieved without a "time out", or at least points off). It is very important that shared lunches be disallowed for the test period, unless they plan on commuting in to socialize for lunch anyway, or lunch will turn into a meeting to work around the ground rules. If you have multiple doors, and fire codes permit it, you should consider seperating the offices set aside for this purpose from the rest of the company using cube walls or some other physical partitioning scheme. It's very important that you not hold the productivity of the employee, or their manager, against them for the test period, when it comes time to evaluate the employee. This also needs to be one of the ground rules. Doing it this way permits you several advantages over a "small test" for real telecommuting: o You can determine which people are telecommuters, and which ones can't really work that way, by each time they violate the ground rules of "not being there"; it's not necessary to tell them that that is what you are measuring, as long as you firmly repeat the ground rules up front. o You can determine the managers who are incapable of dealing with telecommuters, the same way. Managers who have to "look in" on the employees (the office door should be shut, and if ther is a window into the office proper, there should be blinds installed and drawn to prevent visual reassurance), or who feel the need for "face time" to be sure that they have communicated what they need to to the employee are not going to be satisfied with telecommuting employees. They will tend to evaluate them lower compared to other employees, and they will feel less regard for them than on site employees, when or if it becomes time to let someone go. Note: This is a risk that telecommuting employees should be aware of, as well. o Being in the "test group" is not considered a "perk" given only to the people chosen, since there's none of the physical advantages to actually telecommuting other than the decrease in lines of communication perhaps aiding productivity by allowing interruptions to be budgeted. This avoids the "why is XXX allowed to telecommute, but not me?!?", as well. o You can test all telecommuting employees, and all managers of telecommuting employees this way, and know if it will work. Realize that you will, minimally, need an ssh server, and may have to set up a full-on VPN, depending on how virtually local their machines need to be to the company network. This will also teach you about the resources you need (28k modem, ISDN, DSL, etc.) to permit a remote employee to get work done. I would be real tempted to include a "dummynet" as well, to simulate the lower available bandwidth... in fact, I highly recommend it. Place these as obstacles between the company network and the offices in which you are testing, so that the pain that they feel will be there before permitting physical telecommuting. After the "test", go back to the "at office" for a week. Then discuss with both the employee(s) and the manager(s), preferrably in a company or department meeting, so that all the employees and managers that might be included in the program, what worked, and what didn't work. Do it in that order and not as a white board of two categories, actually, or people will feel obligated to contradict each other on benefit vs. cost, which can be different from different points of view. Take into account the source (manager vs. employee), however. This will give everyone a better understanding of why you decide as you decide, as well as pointing out to people not offered the option to telecommute that it's not all a "bed of roses". Lastly, a lot of companies are looking at telecommuting for the wrong reasons; whether it's a budgetary thing for a non polluting tax credit, or whether it's so that you don't have to move a branch of the company, or the entire company, to where the work force needed exists, and can hire people in to work remotely that you can't hire in locally (I would fly these people in for a two week "at office" start period and a one week "test", using the local facilities, followed by another week "at office"), telecommuting is not a magic band-aid for cost-cutting or for getting rid of distractions, or for a regional skills shortage. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 8:42:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41FB37B42A for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g1NGgeg25298; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:42:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Ice skating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > Folks, > > This is a bit of a strange question for this list, but I was > wondering if anyone on the list has taped the Olympic ice skating, > especially the women's skating from last night? If so, I'd be glad > to buy a copy from you, pay for shipping, etc.... I didn't tape but boy howdy, it is worth picking up. Sara Hughes just rocked. (that is the most sophisticated commentary i could muster on the topic) It was a classic competition. She was just as memorable as Mary Lou Retton of years past. Later, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 8:52:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2650737B404 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g1NGqaL25328 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:52:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:52:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a way that I can send a 'user unknown message' to a suspected spammer? I am hoping that spammers automagically clean their lists by reading error messages. My spam over here is just getting out of hand. I filter it off, but I would rather not donwload it in the first place. If I can convince spammers that this address is defunct, maybe I can slow them down. Thanks, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 9:20: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EB737B400 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A9B885341; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:20:01 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Feb 2002 18:20:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > I am hoping that spammers automagically clean their lists by reading error > messages. They don't. They ignore bounces. Most of the time they don't even *receive* bounces, because they spoof their return paths and channel their spam through open relays. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 11:37:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shorin.ryu.com (shorin.ryu.com [192.67.63.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1645937B404 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ryu.com (wado.ryu.com [192.67.63.133]) by shorin.ryu.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28527 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:37:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C77EF30.2030001@ryu.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:36:16 -0600 From: "John R. S. Mascio" Reply-To: mascio@ryu.com Organization: Ryu Enterprises User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >They don't. They ignore bounces. Most of the time they don't even >*receive* bounces, because they spoof their return paths and channel >their spam through open relays. > So true. A friend of mine uses Ricochet (http://www.vipul.net/ricochet/) to try to attack the problem. You save the email, including headers and it will send email to the admins of the chain of receiving machines that the email followed. The goal is to attempt to get spamers punted by the ISPs often enough that it is some pain for them as well. He's had some luck with it. YMMV. JRSM -- _ | John Raymond Stone Mascio _|_|_) | mascio@ryu.com (_|_| | 214.725.7518 | 972.240.5040 ----------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 14:43:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BFB937B419 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 40705 invoked by uid 100); 23 Feb 2002 22:43:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15480.6905.348926.555126@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:43:05 -0600 To: mascio@ryu.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? In-Reply-To: <3C77EF30.2030001@ryu.com> References: <3C77EF30.2030001@ryu.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John R. S. Mascio types: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >They don't. They ignore bounces. Most of the time they don't even > >*receive* bounces, because they spoof their return paths and channel > >their spam through open relays. Yup. Here's what happened in one such case when the machine so spoofed suffered what amounted to a DoS because of this. > So true. A friend of mine uses Ricochet > (http://www.vipul.net/ricochet/) to try to attack the problem. You save > the email, including headers and it will send email to the admins of the > chain of receiving machines that the email followed. The goal is to > attempt to get spamers punted by the ISPs often enough that it is some > pain for them as well. He's had some luck with it. YMMV. I'm not familiar with Ricochet, but the general problem with this idea is that the spammers put bogus received-from headers in them, just to cause such tools to fail and/or bother innocent people. You might want to check out tmda (in the ports tree). It's based on the idea that spam is one-directional. Since installing it, the only spam I get comes through the freebsd lists. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 15:36:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3610937B404 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1NNaV807795; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:36:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020223132720.B4179@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20020223132720.B4179@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:08:17 +0100 To: Paul Robinson , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Ice skating? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:27 PM +0000 2002/02/23, Paul Robinson wrote: > I didn't realise it was that lonely out in .be Brad. Short skirts. Late teen > and twenty-something girls. I can see the attraction. :-) Actually, it's my wife. She's seriously into ice-skating, especially ladies, mens, and doubles (less so the ice dancing). She has been into ice-skating for as long as I've known her. She was very seriously pissed-off that she missed the live showing of the ladies ice-skating competition, which came on at 3:45 AM here. Worse, the BBC didn't bother to re-broadcast the competition at a more sane hour, so she completely missed it. There have been some "hilites" shows, but they have been very spotty in coverage, and way too bloody much fscking time has been spent on stupid sports like curling (how g*d damn much broadcasting time has been wasted on this dreckage and bletchery?). > On a more serious note, I would have suggested that it was probably > available on-line somewhere, and then I remembered that the Olympic > Committee had specifically banned all Internet coverage for the last six > years and were continuing to do so now. Shame really. Especially considering > the short skirts. :-) And I hear that a sixteen year-old girl won the ladies ice-skating competition this year? ;-) -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 15:36:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A3137B405 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1NNaX807838; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:36:33 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C77EF30.2030001@ryu.com> References: <3C77EF30.2030001@ryu.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:12:24 +0100 To: mascio@ryu.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:36 PM -0600 2002/02/23, John R. S. Mascio wrote: > So true. A friend of mine uses Ricochet (http://www.vipul.net/ricochet/) > to try to attack the problem. You save the email, including headers and > it will send email to the admins of the chain of receiving machines that > the email followed. The goal is to attempt to get spamers punted by the > ISPs often enough that it is some pain for them as well. He's had some > luck with it. YMMV. IMO, this won't work. Spammers use throw-away dial-up accounts to generate their effluent for a few hours, and then they toss it away and go on to the next free account. The only thing that would work is to attack the providers that host their websites, but by now they sign up with spam-friendly ISPs who ignore any complaints, or they set up their own spam-friendly ISP, and there's not a damn thing you can do. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 15:36:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B3037B416 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1NNaW807825; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:36:32 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:10:19 +0100 To: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: User unknown: Lie to Spammers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:52 AM -0800 2002/02/23, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Is there a way that I can send a 'user unknown message' to a suspected > spammer? Nope. > I am hoping that spammers automagically clean their lists by reading error > messages. Nope. They make damn sure that they never get any bounces (they couldn't afford them if they did), so they will never, ever clean an address off their list. Besides, if they cleaned any addresses off their lists, that would reduce them in size, and the size of their spam lists are the *only* thing that they have to spout off about. > My spam over here is just getting out of hand. I filter it off, but I > would rather not donwload it in the first place. If I can convince > spammers that this address is defunct, maybe I can slow them down. Sorry, guy. Ain't gonna happen. You can install server-side software so that you are more capable of intelligently filtering it before it gets downloaded, but that's about it. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 17:22:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97FC37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01876 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:23:21 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:21:45 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the inevitable has happened. I've run out of space on my hard drive. :-( I have a larger drive that I want to use, and it would really be sweet if I could copy the contents of my current hard drive to the new hard drive. Failing that, it would be nice to be able to copy the contents of the partitions. If there are any freely available utilities that perform these tasks, I'd love to hear about them. Otherwise, if anybody has any experiences (positive or negative) with any commercially available tools that can get the job done, I'd like to hear about that too. I have NTFS, FAT32, Linux and FreeBSD partitions that I'm trying to deal with, so any subset of the above would be good. Thanks in advance, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 19:13:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from donut.efs.org (donut.efs.org [216.141.160.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A55037B400 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sargon.photon.com (ritz.photon.com [216.141.160.144]) by donut.efs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0BD5BDE; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:19:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:13:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Wilbur X-Sender: matt@sargon.photon.com To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > > If there are any freely available utilities that perform these tasks, I'd > love to hear about them. Otherwise, if anybody has any experiences > (positive or negative) with any commercially available tools that can get > the job done, I'd like to hear about that too. I have NTFS, FAT32, Linux > and FreeBSD partitions that I'm trying to deal with, so any subset of the > above would be good. > Were you just talking FreeBSD, I'd suggest dump and restore, but with that hodgepodge, you're probably best off using ghost (www.symantec.com). Works very well, and can 'grow' partitions on the fly during the disk cloning.. so you can keep your winders/linux slices the same and make lots more room for FreeBSD :) Ghost's well worth the price.. HTH, Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 20:41:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3914637B417 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.17] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1O4enc00751; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:40:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 04:17:57 +0100 To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:21 PM -0500 2002/02/23, Chip Morton wrote: > If there are any freely available utilities that perform these tasks, > I'd love to hear about them. Otherwise, if anybody has any > experiences (positive or negative) with any commercially available > tools that can get the job done, I'd like to hear about that too. > I have NTFS, FAT32, Linux and FreeBSD partitions that I'm trying to > deal with, so any subset of the above would be good. The Linux and FreeBSD stuff should be easy -- simply use the standard OS-provided utilities to do a "dump | restore", and you should be done. The FAT32 and NTFS stuff may require something a bit more involved, perhaps including some third-party software, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 23 20:43:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5DB37B402 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.17] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1O4hF814313; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:43:15 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:43:15 +0100 To: Matt Wilbur , Chip Morton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Cc: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:13 PM -0800 2002/02/23, Matt Wilbur wrote: > Were you just talking FreeBSD, I'd suggest dump and restore, but with that > hodgepodge, you're probably best off using ghost (www.symantec.com). Works > very well, and can 'grow' partitions on the fly during the > disk cloning.. so you can keep your winders/linux slices the same and make > lots more room for FreeBSD :) Ghost's well worth the price.. I know that Ghost is good for doing a bit-for-bit disk copy for Microsoft OSes, but does it really properly grok Linux and FreeBSD filesystems? How does it manage to grow a Linux or FreeBSD filesystem? Heck, for that matter, how does it manage to grow a Microsoft filesystem? -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message