From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 7:30:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (cvsup2.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp [133.11.199.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E05137B416 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp [IPv6:3ffe:b80:5b0:3:280:c8ff:fe6b:6d73]) by rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.12.2/3.7W-rina.r-Nankai-Koya) with ESMTP id g23FUP0j003351 ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:30:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.12.2/3.7W-carrots-Keikyu-Kurihama) with ESMTP id g23FU7fu082955 ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:30:24 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200203031530.g23FU7fu082955@silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:30:07 +0900 From: Seigo Tanimura To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The largest number of vnodes/in-core inodes in a host Cc: Seigo Tanimura User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.8.1 (Something) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 14) (Cuyahoga Valley) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Digital Library Research Division, Information Techinology Centre, The University of Tokyo In-Reply-To: <200203031242.g23CfIfu059069@silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org has about 412-414K vnodes and in-core inodes. --- v --- posted to -arch --- v --- FFSNODE: 256, 0, 412703, 1457, 12363841 VNODE: 224, 0, 414318, 96, 414318 --- ^ --- posted to -arch --- ^ --- I wonder how many vnodes and in-core inodes ftp.cdrom.com has... -- Seigo Tanimura To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 11:31:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A821537B400 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id g23JVRD54853 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:31:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:31:26 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Riscom/8 multi-port serial cards Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I notice that we have a driver for the ISA Riscom/8 multi-port serial card produced, I believe, by SDL in the mid-nineties. I have two of these cards, originally used with BSD/OS in 1994, and have been wondering about using them with FreeBSD. Unfortunately (and the reason this goes to -chat not -somethingelse), I don't have the manuals. The jumpers for IRQ selection are easily understandable, but the DIP switches to select things like I/O ports are not labeled. I attempted to contact SBS, the current owners of what used to be SDL, and they appear no longer to have the documentation, although they did me a manual from the T1 card they produced at the same time. I was wondering if anyone had access to documentation for these cards, or at least had an idea what each DIP switch actually set :-). Since I have two, I'd like to know what the I/O ports are set to, and if various other card settings are correct. I also wouldn't mind learning if anyone knows if the device driver even still works -- it probably should be moved out of i386/isa if it does. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 19: 6:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597D137B402 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id g2436FD67363; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:06:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:06:14 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Brad Knowles Cc: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > It is 95% of the way there from the Mac perspective. However, > it does not ship with an X server, and getting one to work on MacOS X is > not trivial. It's much more difficult to get it working and fully > integrated with the MacOS X desktop (i.e., in rootless mode). Most any > of the command-line stuff you want is probably either already there > (among other things, they've integrated OpenSSH), or should relatively > easily compile and install. Many of the things you've said are true. The X comment didn't appear to me to be the case. It took me two minutes to get X working: find the link on the OS X software page on apple.com, download it, and install it. After that, I could double click the XFree86 icon and it "just worked", either rooted or rootless. It brought up a couple of xterms, xclock was installed, etc. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 0:43:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp [133.11.199.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB9437B404; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.12.2/3.7W-rina.r-Nankai-Koya) with ESMTP id g248h50j045578 ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:43:06 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200203040843.g248h50j045578@rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:43:05 +0900 From: Seigo Tanimura To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: Robert Watson , Seigo Tanimura Subject: Re: The largest number of vnodes/in-core inodes in a host In-Reply-To: References: <200203031530.g23FU7fu082955@silver.carrots.uucp.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.8.1 (Something) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 14) (Cuyahoga Valley) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Digital Library Research Division, Information Techinology Centre, The University of Tokyo MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:40:31 -0500 (EST), Robert Watson said: rwatson> Might make sense to follow up with the command to generate the numbers, so rwatson> that people can compare with their local box :-). 'vmstat -z | grep VNODE' gives the number of allocated vnodes: --- v --- vmstat -z | grep VNODE --- v --- tanimura@rina% vmstat -z | grep VNODE VNODE: 192, 0, 50730, 44, 50730 --- ^ --- vmstat -z | grep VNODE --- ^ --- The fourth column (50730 in this example) is the number of vnodes. 'vmstat -m | grep FFS' tells you the number of in-core inodes: --- v --- vmstat -m | grep FFS --- v --- tanimura@rina% vmstat -m | grep FFS 512 USBdev, UFS mount, MFS node, FFS node, NFSV3 diroff, NFS daemon, FFS node 49983 24992K 25335K 63770K141970109 0 0 512 --- ^ --- vmstat -m | grep FFS --- ^ --- The second column in the second line (49983 in this example) is the number of in-core inodes. -- Seigo Tanimura To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 8:20:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C227937B430 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6013D5341; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:20:25 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Intel ISP 1100 Work Well? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:20:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Has anyone had any problems with an Intel ISP 1100 rackmount running > FreeBSD 4-stable? No, it seems to work just fine. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 10:35:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC49237B400; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g24IZXK01268; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:35:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21576; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:35:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C83BE6A.C8959ABA@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:35:22 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdisk / disklabel References: <3C7FD9A5.DC70E24E@centtech.com> <20020302031141.GA21959@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks.. Turns out, that the maker of the compact flash media I was using didn't quite follow the specs, so occaisionally it did not write the data to the disk completely - something you need when building a filesystems. BAH! These compact flash cards (Hitachi's) are going back, and I'll order 30 of something else. Eric Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 2002-03-01 13:42, Eric Anderson wrote: > > ok, I'm about to crack my head open.. how the heck to I do the equivalent of the > > sysinstall fdisk/disklabel for a new disk? I have a small (64mb) compact flash > > card I need to set up as a bootable freebsd partition, and can't get it going > > for the life of me.. No, it isn't the compact flash, I have done tons of these > > before, and struggled with each one, but for some reason, I can't remember the > > steps I took to do it. Does anyone have a cookbook or anything that could > > help? I've been reading disklabel and fdisk man pages all day, and googling for > > hints too.. > > HELP! > > There is a "cookbook" online :) > Find it at: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/formatting-media/ > > I hope this helps. > > Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project > keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) > > iD8DBQE8gELt1g+UGjGGA7YRAt/XAJ9dVsqRryo3EvMOCeclxLKXw7TOdACgxK7d > Spw9dO2soaL2kDh5650ZFdU= > =+Qn0 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 13:52:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mao.stokely.org (mao.stokely.org [65.84.64.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F52737B400; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mao.stokely.org (Postfix, from userid 2074) id 669BC4B661; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:52:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:52:26 -0800 From: Murray Stokely To: Eric Anderson Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 02:25:09PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Thats all well and good, and I'm beginning to make a "performance tuning" page, > but just like any topic, one person can't do it all, and it often takes lots of > people to come up with the right answer to a performance problem. We have a whole chapter of the Handbook dedicated to tuning. Many people have contributed to that chapter. I think it's a much more logical place to look for this information than mailing list archives for an obscure list. By all means, please submit patches to Chapter 6 of the Handbook. - Murray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 19:45:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A5837B400 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1F7277580; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD4E1D94; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? In-Reply-To: <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: :On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 09:06:51PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: :> Jeremy C. Reed types: :> > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? :> > :Netscape is about 12 million lines of code, it is a gorilla. :There is no known platform on which it runs without dying on you..I :would say on my work Solaris system, which involves practically constant :use of Netscape googling and the repulsive Netscape mail it dies 1-2 a :day. It just disappears. I have an alias set for "rm ~/.netscape/lock". You don't need to do that. If netscape finds a lock file, it verifies that the process that initiated the lock is really there. If not, it ignores it. I know this because my oh so wonderful NS 4.77 on Irix usually disappears on me several times a day. If I get a warning about the lock, then the old process hasn't died and needs to be explicitly killed. I recently compiled Mozilla 0.98 with as much of the debugging removed as I could manage. That speeded things up alot, and it's more stable than NS 4.77. Hopefully once they get to release and you can build it completely free of the QA and debugging burdens currently belaboring the runtime binaries, it'll be only slightly less snappy than NS 4.77. The port of Mozilla 0.98 on 4.5-S isn't noticeably slower than NS 4.7x, but my laptop has a 1.13ghz proc, vs. dual R10000/200mhz in the SGI next to my desk. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 20: 2:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A706137B416 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4011 invoked by uid 100); 5 Mar 2002 04:02:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15492.17237.558641.621969@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:02:29 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? In-Reply-To: References: <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden types: > I recently compiled Mozilla 0.98 with as much of the debugging removed as > I could manage. That speeded things up alot, and it's more stable than NS > 4.77. Hopefully once they get to release and you can build it completely > free of the QA and debugging burdens currently belaboring the runtime > binaries, it'll be only slightly less snappy than NS 4.77. Which means it will still be slower than Skipstone is now. I'm still boggled that mozilla - built from sources - is so much slower than Skipstone, which uses the same mozilla rendering widgets. What did they *do*?! http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 20:53:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CC837B416 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16i6x1-0001AO-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 04:53:23 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 3F53C13040 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:53:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id C1E5122593; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:53:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:53:17 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020305045317.GA9612@raggedclown.net> References: <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 07:46:54PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > :On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 09:06:51PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > :> Jeremy C. Reed types: > :> > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? > :> > > :Netscape is about 12 million lines of code, it is a gorilla. > :There is no known platform on which it runs without dying on you..I > :would say on my work Solaris system, which involves practically constant > :use of Netscape googling and the repulsive Netscape mail it dies 1-2 a > :day. It just disappears. I have an alias set for "rm ~/.netscape/lock". > > You don't need to do that. If netscape finds a lock file, it verifies > that the process that initiated the lock is really there. If not, it > ignores it. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Believe me. I use the damn thing every day, all day, and I am well aware of how to find if a process is running or not on Solaris. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 0:12:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65ABD37B400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 00:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3A9413FC51; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:12:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:12:31 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Mike Meyer Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020305091231.A89235@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> <15492.17237.558641.621969@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <15492.17237.558641.621969@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1015732950.7a4dc5@mired.org on Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 10:02:29PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 10:02:29PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Which means it will still be slower than Skipstone is now. I'm still > boggled that mozilla - built from sources - is so much slower than > Skipstone, which uses the same mozilla rendering widgets. What did > they *do*?! Skipstone is faster because it doesn't rely on XUL for the interface, it uses a minimal GTK UI. What makes mozilla slow is not Gecko, which is pretty fast by itself, but all the bloatware required for XUL to work.=20 Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 2: 9:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E7A37B400; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 02:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g25A9Dx27159; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:09:14 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:47 +0100 To: Murray Stokely , Eric Anderson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:52 PM -0800 2002/03/04, Murray Stokely wrote: > We have a whole chapter of the Handbook dedicated to tuning. Many > people have contributed to that chapter. I think it's a much more > logical place to look for this information than mailing list archives > for an obscure list. By all means, please submit patches to Chapter 6 > of the Handbook. The one thing that I will observe is that as you develop suggestions that might be incorporated in this chapter (or similar documentation), it may be useful to discuss these suggestions with other people, in a public forum, before they are added. It might also be useful to provide URLs with details of testing and benchmarking, etc... to help create the rules-of-thumb that would actually be incorporated into the documentation, but where links to the raw benchmarking, etc... probably wouldn't. Overall, I'm not opposed to the creation of a freebsd-tuning mailing list, but only if the people who would be sponsoring this list would agree to periodically summarize the consensus of the list and submit the appropriate modifications to the permanent documentation. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 5:32:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts23.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0FE37B402 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com ([64.229.184.12]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with SMTP id <20020305132729.SLNA24345.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@yahoo.com> for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:27:29 -0500 Message-ID: <002c01c1c260$bf91b1d0$0cb8e540@sympatico.ca> Reply-To: "Dr Guihua Li" From: "Dr Guihua Li" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Invitation letter from the Organisation Committee of the First World Congress of Future Science and Culture Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:08:52 -0500 Organization: Organisation Committee of First World Congress of Future Science and Culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1C236.D6894F30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1C236.D6894F30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1C236.D6894F30" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1C236.D6894F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir/Madam, = =20 =20 Many of us who came to work in the sciences or similar areas did so = because we wanted to explore the unknown and gain more knowledge and = ultimately make this world a better place. It is undoubtedly true that = modern science has brought immense benefits to humanity but also = encountered many unsolved questions and problems including environmental = pollution.=20 =20 Perhaps it is now time for a different approach: Falun Dafa takes a = holistic view of life and the universe. It builds on the insights of = modern science and combines them with the insights from ancient Chinese = science and culture. We, scientists who understand Falun Dafa, invite = you to participate in the First World Congress of Future Science and = Culture that will be held at Cambridge on March 9th and 10th of 2002. = This congress will see state of the art research in this field and serve = as a forum for discussing how these new ideas could exert a profound = influence on the future science and culture of humankind. =20 Renowned specialists and professors in diverse academic disciplines from = many different parts of the world will be participating. A schedule for = March 9th is attached. On March 10 we will be holding an informal = discussion session at which participants at the conference can raise = issues with the speakers.=20 =20 We do hope that you will be able to find the time to attend. Please let = us know if you have any questions. =20 Yours sincerely, =20 =20 =20 Dr Guihua Li Organisation Committee of First World Congress of Future Science and = Culture fsc_congress@hotmail.com http://www.fsc-congress.org ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1C236.D6894F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Sir/Madam,               &nbs= p;        =20            &nbs= p;        =20            &nbs= p; =20

 

Many=20 of us who came to work in the sciences or similar areas did so because = we wanted=20 to explore the unknown and gain more knowledge and ultimately make this = world a=20 better place.  It is = undoubtedly=20 true that modern science has brought immense benefits to humanity but = also=20 encountered many unsolved questions and problems including environmental = pollution.

 

Perhaps it is now time for a different = approach:  Falun Dafa takes a holistic = view of life=20 and the universe. It builds on the insights of modern science and = combines them=20 with the insights from ancient Chinese science and culture. We, = scientists who=20 understand Falun Dafa, invite you to participate in the First World = Congress of=20 Future Science and Culture that will be held at Cambridge on March=20 9th and 10th of 2002. This congress will see state = of the=20 art research in this field and serve as a forum for discussing how these = new=20 ideas could exert a profound influence on the future science and culture = of=20 humankind.

 

Renowned specialists and professors in diverse = academic=20 disciplines from many different parts of the world will be = participating.  A schedule for March 9th is = attached. On=20 March 10 we will be holding an informal discussion session at which = participants=20 at the conference can raise issues with the speakers.=20

 

We do hope that = you will be=20 able to find the time to attend.=20 Please let us know if you have any = questions.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 


 

Dr Guihua Li

Organisation Committee of First World Congress = of Future=20 Science and Culture

fsc_congress@hotmail.com

http://www.fsc-congress.org

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mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 5:37: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D748A37B417; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g25DaxK24813; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:36:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14234; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:36:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C84C9EE.71635BF8@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 07:36:46 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Murray Stokely , Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's pretty much my goal. I'd like to discuss with others who are using FreeBSD in different contexts, and gather the pertinent tuning information. Having it in the Handbook is fantastic, but individually we are not able to see all areas of tuning, or even all the effects of some tuning. I would hate to tune my FreeBSD box for NFS serving, and have it hose the http servicing (for example), and publish it. Kind of a "peer review" effect. I would be willing to sponsor the list, and take care of the summarizing, documentation, etc. Heck, that's the least I can do for the FreeBSD project. Eric Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 1:52 PM -0800 2002/03/04, Murray Stokely wrote: > > > We have a whole chapter of the Handbook dedicated to tuning. Many > > people have contributed to that chapter. I think it's a much more > > logical place to look for this information than mailing list archives > > for an obscure list. By all means, please submit patches to Chapter 6 > > of the Handbook. > > The one thing that I will observe is that as you develop > suggestions that might be incorporated in this chapter (or similar > documentation), it may be useful to discuss these suggestions with > other people, in a public forum, before they are added. It might > also be useful to provide URLs with details of testing and > benchmarking, etc... to help create the rules-of-thumb that would > actually be incorporated into the documentation, but where links to > the raw benchmarking, etc... probably wouldn't. > > Overall, I'm not opposed to the creation of a freebsd-tuning > mailing list, but only if the people who would be sponsoring this > list would agree to periodically summarize the consensus of the list > and submit the appropriate modifications to the permanent > documentation. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook > page at and see how much fun you can have. > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 5:47:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098D237B400; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AF63A3FC51; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:47:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:47:26 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@freebsd.org References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net>; from csfbsd@raggedclown.net on Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: Moving this to chat: > What always bugs me is people who should know better referring to "cracke= rs", > as "hackers" :) Troll, but I'll bite :-) Cracker: salted cookie. Hacker: what you meant as hacker. Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P And yes, I'll shut up now. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8hMxtnLctrNyFFPERAvYbAJ47nDZjoVtiT4OVva3hiEvZIkglnwCfUtvB /8BiVBmvApB+oNVO4ap8lKw= =HNPO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 5:54:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D473537B405 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g25DseK25139; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:54:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14543; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:54:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 07:54:26 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hacker or cracker? (WAS: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/) References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh, yea, it seems to me that crackers were those people that pirated softare and made cracks, hence crackers. Hackers were the people that, well, HACKed.. I see people referring to hackers as crackers and crackers as hackers.. I'm not sure when the confusion started, but about 10-15 years ago, there wasn't much media hype about this stuff.. Eric (If a hacker is a cracker's attacker, and the attacker's hacked cracker is not a hacker, then is a cracker the hacker's attacker?) Miguel Mendez wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Moving this to chat: > > > What always bugs me is people who should know better referring to "crackers", > > as "hackers" :) > > Troll, but I'll bite :-) > > Cracker: salted cookie. > Hacker: what you meant as hacker. > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P > > And yes, I'll shut up now. > > Cheers, > -- > Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net > GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt > EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk > FreeBSD - The power to serve! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 6: 1: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9876D37B400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 06:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp5.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.5]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA23711; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 01:00:38 +1100 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp5.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.5] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g25E7WF10805; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:07:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Sat, 02 Mar 2002 02:13:18 +0000" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:07:32 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 2nd March 2002, "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: >Opera is nifty. Pretty clean, reasonably efficient. The stupid >all-windows-in-one UI must die a fiery death though. It works great if >you've got 2 or 3 open. It's useless when you get more than 5 or 6, both >because it becomes impossible to find the one you want quickly, and >because Opera gets draggingly slow as you open more. Opera 6.x is even >SLOWER, and non-trivially buggier, so I'm stuck on 5. How interesting! As soon as I saw Opera's tabbed interface, I was sold. The few times since then that I've had to use Netscape with its one-page- per-window scheme have been tediously painful. I can't imagine going back. With Netscape I could usefully open maybe 30 windows, and I would lose them in the clutter. With Opera, I can open about 100 or so. After that, it gets a bit slow, but with a fast Athlon and half a gig of ram, it's fine. Oh, and I use 5.0, not the buggy 6.0 alpha test demos they've released. If you are careful not to do a few particular things, the uptime of opera is a month, perhaps 2 months. Enough to suffice. The thing I really need now is a good HTML filter to remove some of the more repulsive web garbage (popup windows, flashing fonts, scrolling messages in the status bar, target="new" on links, etc). Just never quite get around to writing one. Now, about your assertion that dual CPUs are more wonderful than wonderful, consider the effect of adding a cpu usage limiting scheduler that caused processes that were using 50% or more of the cpu to sleep 1 clock tick out of 2. Wouldn't that be just like two cpus at half the speed? Doesn't that mean I could fake up a dual 700 from my Athlon 1400 for little more than a bit of kernel hackery? Maybe your dual PPRO really is obsolete. :-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 7:41: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15DD37B417 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id F348F459; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:40:17 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:40:17 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:47:26PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: >=20 > Moving this to chat: >=20 > > What always bugs me is people who should know better referring to "crac= kers", > > as "hackers" :) >=20 > Troll, but I'll bite :-) >=20 > Cracker: salted cookie. > Hacker: what you meant as hacker. >=20 > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P A cracker is someone who breaks software security (usually on games). Joe --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyE5uEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZhhACcDf6BJ951oA3RCXDAWp7gmTmq 9xUAmQEOYUrczPZ3NRa4CSm6R33NtK2r =aLbG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 7:50: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703A037B416 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BAD213FC51; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:49:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:49:57 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 03:40:17PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 03:40:17PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P >=20 > A cracker is someone who breaks software security (usually on games). Yeah, that's right. But in the unix world it doesn't really make sense. Yes, Fravia's pages contain one or two essays where some unix is involved (I remember FlexLM reverse engineering on HP-UX) but other than that and a very minimal Linux cracking activity, I haven't seen many cracking on unix systems. As someone pointed out, in this particular case (attacking a freebsd.org box), should be defined as the action of a script kiddiot. Calling him/her a hacker would be offensive to real hackers :-)=20 Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8hOklnLctrNyFFPERAtfoAJ4wmiwCgeMF5QGb9E+BcWJfaC7/MQCgg0EJ c3m/7SEuRnRD2xNqzA6m56E= =khi8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 7:53:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFB437B41C for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 698064A7; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:51:44 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:51:44 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YToU2i3Vx8H2dn7O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --YToU2i3Vx8H2dn7O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 04:49:57PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 03:40:17PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: >=20 > > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > > > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P > >=20 > > A cracker is someone who breaks software security (usually on games). >=20 > Yeah, that's right. But in the unix world it doesn't really make sense. > Yes, Fravia's pages contain one or two essays where some unix is > involved (I remember FlexLM reverse engineering on HP-UX) but other than > that and a very minimal Linux cracking activity, I haven't seen many > cracking on unix systems. Are Fravia's pages still around? I read them a few years ago, and very good they were too. =20 > As someone pointed out, in this particular case (attacking a freebsd.org > box), should be defined as the action of a script kiddiot. Calling > him/her a hacker would be offensive to real hackers :-)=20 :) Although if they were a 'her', I'd gladly call her a hacker (at least for a night). Joe --YToU2i3Vx8H2dn7O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyE6Y8ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYNqwCfbnkOR8R9lu4uFdMllyubQ5CB Ps0Ani10KlXCmL87s1WEnKKdpJ2BIUYB =W7NX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YToU2i3Vx8H2dn7O-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 8:52:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14E637B41E for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iIAr-000IYm-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:52:25 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 1569113040 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:52:25 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 1B98522593; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:52:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:52:22 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020305165222.GC705@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:07:32AM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Saturday, 2nd March 2002, "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > Now, about your assertion that dual CPUs are more wonderful than wonderful, > consider the effect of adding a cpu usage limiting scheduler that caused > processes that were using 50% or more of the cpu to sleep 1 clock tick out > of 2. Wouldn't that be just like two cpus at half the speed? No it wouldn't. You are forgetting about the expense of context switches. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 8:53:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565B137B400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id D57C7FC4; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:53:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:53:30 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Stephen McKay Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:07:32AM +1000 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:07:32AM +1000 I heard the voice of Stephen McKay, and lo! it spake thus: > > How interesting! As soon as I saw Opera's tabbed interface, I was sold. > > The few times since then that I've had to use Netscape with its one-page- > per-window scheme have been tediously painful. I can't imagine going back. > With Netscape I could usefully open maybe 30 windows, and I would lose > them in the clutter. With Opera, I can open about 100 or so. After that, > it gets a bit slow, but with a fast Athlon and half a gig of ram, it's fine. Well, my line of thinking goes something like this: A) Opera is a web browser B) Web browsers are designed and optimized for rendering HTML and related tasks C) When you have more than one independant window in an area (be that area a desktop, an individual application parent window, whatever), there are a number of tasks involved in managing them, including handling resizing, iconifying, maximizing, naming, selecting, etc. D) There is a class of programs called "window managers" that are designed and optimized for managing windows So, given (A&&B)&&(C&&D), trying to make a web browser act like a window manager doesn't make much sense. Also, with all-in-one, it's impossible to interleave the browser windows with my other windows; additionally, it's practically impossible to see more than one webpage at a time, unless I make the Opera window itself a completely insane size, which then causes blocking of everything else on my screen. Now, in some environments (the !@$& idiot Windows UI, say), it makes sense, because the window manager such as it is is completely inadequate for the task once you open more than a very few windows, so you HAVE to have your applications do internal management to add "layers" so to speak. But in a X11 environment, when you can pick and choose among a number of WM's with great configurability and scalability... what's the point? > The thing I really need now is a good HTML filter to remove some of > the more repulsive web garbage (popup windows, flashing fonts, scrolling > messages in the status bar, target="new" on links, etc). Just never quite > get around to writing one. Well, keeping Javascript turned off with a vengeance like I do is pretty good for most of those ;p Opera and Mozilla both have options to ignore target="_blank", I believe. You could also do some fiddling with stylesheets to turn off the annoyance of etc. > Now, about your assertion that dual CPUs are more wonderful than wonderful, > consider the effect of adding a cpu usage limiting scheduler that caused > processes that were using 50% or more of the cpu to sleep 1 clock tick out > of 2. Wouldn't that be just like two cpus at half the speed? Doesn't that > mean I could fake up a dual 700 from my Athlon 1400 for little more than > a bit of kernel hackery? Maybe your dual PPRO really is obsolete. :-) Of course it's obsolete. I await your shipment of a dual Athlon to replace it :P If it's obsolete, then what is my P133 laptop, P120 backup workstation, and 486/66 router? You could, in theory I suppose, with such a setup simulate a dual 700 with your single 1400 (and without having to deal with IPI's or cache synchronization). But wouldn't you rather just have a dual 1400? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 9:10:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAADA37B416 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iIRy-000Kfk-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:10:06 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id D0F2C13040 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:10:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 3568622593; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:10:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:10:05 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But since all hackers are crackers, but not every cracker is crackers, or a hacker.. :) I believe that it is actually the word "hackers" that has been hijacked and misused by journalists when they mean crackers. Hackers comes from the common expression "to hack code" and is not (or was not) perjorative. A crackers is not just someone who breaks game protections, it is someone more like a "safe cracker", someone who breaks any kind of secure (so-called) system. I always find this talk of "script kiddies" as sweeping away a problem as some kind of juvenile vandalism. There are much more serious people at work on it than that. As a parallel, you may think bicycle thieves are just .. well someone walking down the street and stealing a bike, which is often the case. On the other hand bicycle theft in Europe is on a massive professionally criminal scale, a lot of these bikes get exported to Africa where a bicycle is a primary means of transport in many areas, and are sold there. I think a DoS attack may well be someone having fun with some script they picked up on the net somewhere; on the other hand it takes some intelligence to work out how to wiggle your way through holes in the TCP/IP protocols, or in implementations thereof. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 9:12:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA8237B402; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0452.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.197] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iITb-0002c6-00; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:11:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:11:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > What always bugs me is people who should know better referring to "crackers", > > as "hackers" :) > > Troll, but I'll bite :-) > > Cracker: salted cookie. > Hacker: what you meant as hacker. > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P Well, "troll" back at you... A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result of a curious nature. A cracker touches; cracking is a result of poor potty training. A hacker learns in order to learn. A cracker learns in order to exploit. Any true hacker has a Bushido-style sense of honor. A hacker is a Samurai. Crackers generally have no honor. A cracker is Ronin. Ken Thompson is a hacker. Dennis Ritchie is a hacker. Kirk McKusick is a hacker. The term "cracker" was not chosen lightly; it was chosen by hackers, not by journalists. "Cracking" intentionally implies breakage, damage, or exploitation of some kind. In fact, it is journalists who use the terms as if they were the same thing, which pisses hackers off immensely, and delights crackers no end, in the same way that a person who habitually wore black in order to impersonate a tortured young artist would be delighted to be mistaken for one. The "freebsd-hackers" mailing list was named correctly, even if some idiots don't get the point and post asking for "W4R3Z" occasionally. We usually point them to the top "W4R3Z" site on the net, one so secret it has no DNS name: 127.0.0.1. And no, we aren't going to change the FreeBSD mascot to something other than the BSD Daemon, thanks. And yes, we have all your personal information on file, we just aren't going to do anything with it. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 9:49:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5598F37B478 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 679003FC51; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:48:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:48:50 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020305184850.A91623@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 09:11:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 09:11:31AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result > of a curious nature. Agreed, hackers have ethics. Look but don't touch. But I think there are two sides of the 'force'. IMHO, in a computer world, both Yoda and Darth Vader would be hackers, the fact the Vader was seduced by the dark side doesn't mean he is less knowledgeable on the subject. Both can get into a computer system, Yoda won't touch anything, Vader would. > Any true hacker has a Bushido-style sense of honor. A > hacker is a Samurai. Heh, is that a hidden reference to Shimomura? :-P > Ken Thompson is a hacker. Dennis Ritchie is a hacker. > Kirk McKusick is a hacker. Agreed, so is Morris, of the Internet Worm fame. Did he cause damage? Yes, but coded that worm, so he is a hacker. What counts for me is wether you learned or you just grabbed a script/exploit. Of course, if someone just comes and writes: "h3y, 1 am @ 1337 H@X0R", the moron-o-meter raises dramatically :-P IMHO there should be no such distinction, a hacker is a hacker and what most people refer to as cracker is just some idiot with too much spare time and a bunch of scripts he just downloaded from rootshell.com and whathaveyou. So instead of reading "www.ebay.com under moron attack" we read hacker/cracker instead on newspapers, too bad. > The "freebsd-hackers" mailing list was named correctly, Of course it is, I never said otherwise. > even if some idiots don't get the point and post asking > for "W4R3Z" occasionally. We usually point them to the > top "W4R3Z" site on the net, one so secret it has no DNS > name: 127.0.0.1. Or the good old http://hot:warez@goatse.cx, yes :-) > And no, we aren't going to change the FreeBSD mascot to > something other than the BSD Daemon, thanks. LMAO > And yes, we have all your personal information on file, > we just aren't going to do anything with it. 8-). Well, online privacy doesn't really exist, does it? :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8hQUBnLctrNyFFPERAmsQAJ9KtKxNoZqkmj+4FHtUExrg5JSh0wCeIgwe geKbOnxXtfkAWKbdmPTXg74= =7/Mc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 13:27:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA2D37B405; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F9ABC94; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05556; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:26:56 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g25LUJ840373; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Brad Knowles , Murray Stokely , Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> <3C84C9EE.71635BF8@centtech.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Mar 2002 13:30:18 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C84C9EE.71635BF8@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > That's pretty much my goal. I'd like to discuss with others who are using > FreeBSD in different contexts, and gather the pertinent tuning information. > Having it in the Handbook is fantastic, but individually we are not able to see > all areas of tuning, or even all the effects of some tuning. I would hate to > tune my FreeBSD box for NFS serving, and have it hose the http servicing (for > example), and publish it. Kind of a "peer review" effect. That all makes sense, but I wonder if you could get much of the same benefit and a larger readership (important, methinks) if there was a ML for "the discussion of documentation improvements" which could have long-lived "tuning" (and other) threads. I've seen a need for such ML when -doc didn't seem the place and the other MLs were either too unfamiliar to me or too-little read or seemingly inappropriate. This could reduce the amount of errors introduced by the two or three (usually non-specialist) people involved with a PR but not caught by lurking specialists. I have previously feared that such a list would have a too-small readership, but now I don't see why it should be any smaller than -perf or such; i.e., not too small to be worth a try. I would hope that it would draw a lot of "do-gooders" that are otherwise not willing to get involved in particular PRs. Another time killer. In lieu of either your or my suggested ML, -hackers seems the best ML for you and me (though I've not yet tried posting there, so I could be very wrong). Is -hackers good enough? Is it even OK? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 13:31:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E32D37B405; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g25LUsK06133; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:30:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26291; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:30:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C853900.D0814685@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:30:40 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brad Knowles , Murray Stokely , Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020304215226.GG3250@freebsdmall.com> <3C84C9EE.71635BF8@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hackers is usually very busy with code pieces, and fixes, along with general software and code hacks to fix things. I think the tuning/performance stuff along with documentation things will get lost in the shuffle.. Eric "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > That's pretty much my goal. I'd like to discuss with others who are using > > FreeBSD in different contexts, and gather the pertinent tuning information. > > Having it in the Handbook is fantastic, but individually we are not able to see > > all areas of tuning, or even all the effects of some tuning. I would hate to > > tune my FreeBSD box for NFS serving, and have it hose the http servicing (for > > example), and publish it. Kind of a "peer review" effect. > > That all makes sense, but I wonder if you could get much of the same > benefit and a larger readership (important, methinks) if there was a ML > for "the discussion of documentation improvements" which could have > long-lived "tuning" (and other) threads. I've seen a need for such ML > when -doc didn't seem the place and the other MLs were either too > unfamiliar to me or too-little read or seemingly inappropriate. This > could reduce the amount of errors introduced by the two or three > (usually non-specialist) people involved with a PR but not caught by > lurking specialists. I have previously feared that such a list would > have a too-small readership, but now I don't see why it should be any > smaller than -perf or such; i.e., not too small to be worth a try. I > would hope that it would draw a lot of "do-gooders" that are otherwise > not willing to get involved in particular PRs. Another time killer. > > In lieu of either your or my suggested ML, -hackers seems the best ML > for you and me (though I've not yet tried posting there, so I could be > very wrong). Is -hackers good enough? Is it even OK? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 16:15:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F1237B417; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16204; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:15:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g260F6h27994; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:15:05 -0700 To: Kenneth Culver Cc: Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat ] > > Because that underlying assumption is false, and I'm making > > fun of it. > > Well, that in itself is wrong. C++ code IS harder to write and write > correctly and effeciently, as I would assume it is for any OO language. Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out reservation that C++ sucks. OOP programming doesn't *have* to be hard. C++ puts too many roadblocks in your way. It not just because Java is newer that it's displacing C++ as the primary development language. It's because C++ as a language is *NOT* well-designed (design my commitee). C is becoming more and more like C++ in this regard. (And before Terry starts whining about strongly typed languages, let me state that IMO strongly typed languages are a good thing, since they allow you to verify your code at *COMPILE* time, vs. at runtime.) I can get more done in a shorter period of time with Java than with C++. However, when speed is of the issues, the computer get more done in a shorter amount of time with C than I can with either Java/C++. My Java programs can often-times run *faster* than my own C++ programs, simply because Java (the language) makes it easier to produce a good design. I don't find the limitations to be limitations so much, and they tend to force me to do better design up front. Both are OOP languages, but C++ *feels* like a non-OOP language with some hooks to make it more OOP like. (I'd like to play with Smalltalk, but alas there's no market for it, and there's no time left in my day to work on what I need to get done, let alone for things like playing with ST.) C++ in it's simple form *can* be easier to maintain, but it rarely turns out that way. As programmers, it's difficult to not succumb to the temptation to use the latest/greatest feature of the language, since at the time it certainly *seems* like it would help things out in the long-term. :) Finally, well-written/optimized C++ code is an abomination to look at, and requires sacrificing small animals at alters whenever you need to modify it. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 16:31:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.yumyumyum.org (dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.171.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E797537B400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6738 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2002 00:31:15 -0000 Received: from dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (66.92.171.91) by dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 2002 00:31:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:31:15 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Culver To: Nate Williams Cc: Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> Message-ID: <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > reservation that C++ sucks. OOP programming doesn't *have* to be hard. > C++ puts too many roadblocks in your way. > > It not just because Java is newer that it's displacing C++ as the > primary development language. It's because C++ as a language is *NOT* > well-designed (design my commitee). C is becoming more and more like > C++ in this regard. (And before Terry starts whining about strongly > typed languages, let me state that IMO strongly typed languages are a > good thing, since they allow you to verify your code at *COMPILE* time, > vs. at runtime.) > > I can get more done in a shorter period of time with Java than with C++. > However, when speed is of the issues, the computer get more done in a > shorter amount of time with C than I can with either Java/C++. > > My Java programs can often-times run *faster* than my own C++ programs, > simply because Java (the language) makes it easier to produce a good > design. I don't find the limitations to be limitations so much, and > they tend to force me to do better design up front. Both are OOP > languages, but C++ *feels* like a non-OOP language with some hooks to > make it more OOP like. (I'd like to play with Smalltalk, but alas > there's no market for it, and there's no time left in my day to work on > what I need to get done, let alone for things like playing with ST.) > > C++ in it's simple form *can* be easier to maintain, but it rarely turns > out that way. As programmers, it's difficult to not succumb to the > temptation to use the latest/greatest feature of the language, since at > the time it certainly *seems* like it would help things out in the > long-term. :) > > Finally, well-written/optimized C++ code is an abomination to look at, > and requires sacrificing small animals at alters whenever you need to > modify it. :) > > > I need to learn to say what I mean in a better manner. I've been trying to say the last comment for this whole thread and just couldn't get it into words. Thanks. Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 17: 3:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C674137B402 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0122877840; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:08:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C856A31.260BAA83@pythonemproject.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:00:33 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kenneth Culver Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I program in Python for just about everything, mainly because I can read and understand my own code a month later :) C is OK for readability. C++ and Fortran just suck IMHO. I have no opinion on Java. Rob. Kenneth Culver wrote: > > > Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > > little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > > reservation that C++ sucks. OOP programming doesn't *have* to be hard. > > C++ puts too many roadblocks in your way. > > > > It not just because Java is newer that it's displacing C++ as the > > primary development language. It's because C++ as a language is *NOT* > > well-designed (design my commitee). C is becoming more and more like > > C++ in this regard. (And before Terry starts whining about strongly > > typed languages, let me state that IMO strongly typed languages are a > > good thing, since they allow you to verify your code at *COMPILE* time, > > vs. at runtime.) > > > > I can get more done in a shorter period of time with Java than with C++. > > However, when speed is of the issues, the computer get more done in a > > shorter amount of time with C than I can with either Java/C++. > > > > My Java programs can often-times run *faster* than my own C++ programs, > > simply because Java (the language) makes it easier to produce a good > > design. I don't find the limitations to be limitations so much, and > > they tend to force me to do better design up front. Both are OOP > > languages, but C++ *feels* like a non-OOP language with some hooks to > > make it more OOP like. (I'd like to play with Smalltalk, but alas > > there's no market for it, and there's no time left in my day to work on > > what I need to get done, let alone for things like playing with ST.) > > > > C++ in it's simple form *can* be easier to maintain, but it rarely turns > > out that way. As programmers, it's difficult to not succumb to the > > temptation to use the latest/greatest feature of the language, since at > > the time it certainly *seems* like it would help things out in the > > long-term. :) > > > > Finally, well-written/optimized C++ code is an abomination to look at, > > and requires sacrificing small animals at alters whenever you need to > > modify it. :) > > > > > > > I need to learn to say what I mean in a better manner. I've been trying to > say the last comment for this whole thread and just couldn't get it into > words. Thanks. > > Ken > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 17:28:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721B737B419 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0228.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.228] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iQDj-0006Rj-00; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:27:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:27:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kenneth Culver Cc: Nate Williams , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kenneth Culver wrote: > I need to learn to say what I mean in a better manner. I've been trying to > say the last comment for this whole thread and just couldn't get it into > words. Thanks. Whatever. The bottom line is that the original poster is being paid by someone to code, and he who pays the piper calls the tune. If he doesn't like it, there are plenty of other companies to work for, and if his manager doesn't like it, there's plenty of people he can hire that *will* do the code in the required language to meet the corporate goals which led to the choice of C++ in the first place. C++ is a good mapping for problems that are subject to object decomposition for solution, and in a design-before-code environemnt (explains why you haven't seen good -- IYO -- Open Source C++ code), it is easier to verify that the code matches the design, and the correctness of the design, as well as being able to use the design document 10 years later to successfully maintain the code. FWIW, the University of Kentucky did a Bell Labs/USL sponsoered OS research project called "Choices", written in C++. It had a stacking VFS architecture implemented using a pure virtual base class and inheritance. In the demo for this code, I saw extended attributes and ACLs added to a filesystem in less than 20 minutes. I have yet to see FreeBSD's stacking VFS architecture handle the cache coherency problem for getpages/putpages correctly, without explicit coherency using read/write to implement the stacking of a top level getpages/putpages, with the associated decoherency in the mmap case not being fixed for the msync() or for the file-and-mmap simultaneous access cases. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 17:40:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD3537B417 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020306014049.NDZK1147.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 01:40:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:41:06 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > [ moved to -chat ] > > > > Because that underlying assumption is false, and I'm making > > > fun of it. > > > > Well, that in itself is wrong. C++ code IS harder to write and write > > correctly and effeciently, as I would assume it is for any OO language. > > Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > reservation that C++ sucks. OOP programming doesn't *have* to be hard. > C++ puts too many roadblocks in your way. 1. C++ is a more difficult language than C because it does more stuff than C. Ditto vs Java. 2. C++ doesn't have to be any more difficult than it has to because you can ignore most anything in it that you don't need. > It not just because Java is newer that it's displacing C++ as the > primary development language. It's because C++ as a language is *NOT* > well-designed (design my commitee). For years I have been seeing this assertion on the net over and over. I still don't see the expected result (ie, Java applications displacing C/C++ applications). Granted that C++ is a language designed by a committee, but what in the world is Java, if not a language designed by a committee? > I can get more done in a shorter period of time with Java than with C++. > However, when speed is of the issues, the computer get more done in a > shorter amount of time with C than I can with either Java/C++. I can get more done in a shorter period of time with C++ than with Java. So what? Does this say any more than what we're used to, and what libraries we're aware of? Surely the language doesn't write our programs. Ditto to your other points. If Java inherently creates better, more optimized design, then why don't we see more Java applications in the marketplace? > Finally, well-written/optimized C++ code is an abomination to look at, > and requires sacrificing small animals at alters whenever you need to > modify it. :) This is simply not true, so I'll take your smiley for what it's worth :-) Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 18:24:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grillo.net (adsl-216-103-84-67.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [216.103.84.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E5B37B402 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grio@localhost) by grillo.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA84674; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grio) From: Dan Grillo Message-Id: <200203060224.SAA84674@grillo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: President, Grillo Networking, Inc. To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:24:14 -0800 Versions: dmail (bsd44) 2.4/makemail 2.9b Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSDer's, Here's a little C++ riddle... --------------------------------------------------------- C++ riddle by Erik Kay Looking at the following piece of C++ code, what is the maximum number of *direct* function calls (in other words, where the stack depth is 1 deeper than this function) that this function could make? As a second question, what is the *minimum* number of direct function calls that this function must make (assuming no exceptions are thrown). For your answers, you should enumerate what those function calls are. You can make the following assumptions: cpp is only used to process the #include (in other words, no #define silliness) none of the code referenced uses inlined functions the line "C c = new C..." is not a typo there are no typedefs don't count compiler optimizations for the minimum (count unnecessary function calls that a good optimizer might remove) #include C foo() { A a(bar()); B b(baz(), quux()); C c = new C(a + b + a); return c; } Hints: Don't forget implicit functions, even on the minimum side of the problem. On the maximum side, the maximum can get very gross - for example, what if bar() returned an int, but there's no constructor for A that takes an int. Could you come up with code where that could compile? What about temporary objects? --------------------------------------------------------- I'll post the answers in a few days. --Dan -- Dan Grillo dan@grillo.net (650) 917-0685 fax (775) 248-7762 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 19: 3:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.nc.rr.com (fe4.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0D337B404 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from i8k.babbleon.org ([66.57.85.154]) by mail4.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:02:22 -0500 Received: by i8k.babbleon.org (Postfix, from userid 111) id 01E6ABA03; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:01:45 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Brian T.Schellenberger To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), Kenneth Culver Subject: Re: C vs C++ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:01:45 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> In-Reply-To: <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020306030145.01E6ABA03@i8k.babbleon.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday 05 March 2002 07:15 pm, Nate Williams wrote: > [ moved to -chat ] > > > > Because that underlying assumption is false, and I'm making > > > fun of it. > > > > Well, that in itself is wrong. C++ code IS harder to write and write > > correctly and effeciently, as I would assume it is for any OO language. > > Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > reservation that C++ sucks. OOP programming doesn't *have* to be hard. > C++ puts too many roadblocks in your way. Amen to that. > It not just because Java is newer that it's displacing C++ as the > primary development language. It's because C++ as a language is *NOT* > well-designed (design my commitee). C is becoming more and more like > C++ in this regard. (And before Terry starts whining about strongly > typed languages, let me state that IMO strongly typed languages are a > good thing, since they allow you to verify your code at *COMPILE* time, > vs. at runtime.) Actually the problem isn't that it's designed by committee. The problem is that it's UNdesigned--and that is *deliberate*. Read Stoustup (sp?)--he explicitly *rejected* the idea of having a philosophy of the language--he sees it as limiting the languages utility. This, naturally, leads to the PL/I of the C family--an unholy mess of a lanaguage. I was working on a debugger and we were exploring C++ and we kept having meetings where we would discover another revelation about C++ and our jaws would drop and go you can do WHAT??? Are they INSANE???? It's really awful. Objective C, for exmaple, is a much better C-based OO language I wouldn't recommend C++ to anybody for anything myself. -- Brian T. Schellenberger . . . . . . . bts@wnt.sas.com (work) Brian, the man from Babble-On . . . . bts@babbleon.org (personal) ME --> http://www.babbleon.org http://www.eff.org <-- GOOD GUYS --> http://www.programming-freedom.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 19:51: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.yumyumyum.org (dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.171.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5652437B4D6 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7512 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2002 03:50:36 -0000 Received: from dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (66.92.171.91) by dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 2002 03:50:36 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:50:36 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Culver To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020305224840.D7488-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Kenneth Culver wrote: > > I need to learn to say what I mean in a better manner. I've been trying to > > say the last comment for this whole thread and just couldn't get it into > > words. Thanks. > > Whatever. > > The bottom line is that the original poster is being paid > by someone to code, and he who pays the piper calls the > tune. If he doesn't like it, there are plenty of other > companies to work for, and if his manager doesn't like it, > there's plenty of people he can hire that *will* do the > code in the required language to meet the corporate goals > which led to the choice of C++ in the first place. > > C++ is a good mapping for problems that are subject to > object decomposition for solution, and in a design-before-code > environemnt (explains why you haven't seen good -- IYO -- Open > Source C++ code), it is easier to verify that the code matches > the design, and the correctness of the design, as well as being > able to use the design document 10 years later to successfully > maintain the code. > > FWIW, the University of Kentucky did a Bell Labs/USL > sponsoered OS research project called "Choices", written > in C++. It had a stacking VFS architecture implemented > using a pure virtual base class and inheritance. In the > demo for this code, I saw extended attributes and ACLs > added to a filesystem in less than 20 minutes. I have > yet to see FreeBSD's stacking VFS architecture handle > the cache coherency problem for getpages/putpages correctly, > without explicit coherency using read/write to implement > the stacking of a top level getpages/putpages, with the > associated decoherency in the mmap case not being fixed > for the msync() or for the file-and-mmap simultaneous access > cases. Well, I've never seen code written in C++ that well, which could very well be because I've only really looked at Open Source projects. Also, where I work, we use C, not C++, but I think that's mainly because we use FreeBSD, and practically nothing in FreeBSD is written in C++. Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 19:53: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.yumyumyum.org (dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.171.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62F8337B400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7524 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2002 03:53:00 -0000 Received: from dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (66.92.171.91) by dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 2002 03:53:00 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:53:00 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Culver To: "Brian T.Schellenberger" Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <20020306030145.01E6ABA03@i8k.babbleon.org> Message-ID: <20020305225203.T7488-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Objective C, for exmaple, is a much better C-based OO language > I've never really used Objective C, although didn't Next use that in NextStep/OpenStep? Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 20: 5:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC6837B404 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25252; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:05:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2644xT29563; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:04:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15493.38251.391805.244512@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:04:59 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kenneth Culver , Nate Williams , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> References: <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > C++ is a good mapping for problems that are subject to > object decomposition for solution, and in a design-before-code > environemnt (explains why you haven't seen good -- IYO -- Open > Source C++ code), it is easier to verify that the code matches > the design, and the correctness of the design, as well as being > able to use the design document 10 years later to successfully > maintain the code. See my previous email, where I disagree with this. Using some analogies: C - Here is a gun and bullets. Try not to hurt yourself. Java - Here is a gun, with the safety-on, and some rubber bullets. Try not to hurt yourself. C++ - Here is a fully loaded gun, with no safety. Let's point it at your foot. If might hurt if you pulled the trigger, but then again it might feel good. Go ahead and try to not shoot yourself. > FWIW, the University of Kentucky did a Bell Labs/USL > sponsoered OS research project called "Choices", written > in C++. [ snip ] Great. Someone can actually write something decent in C++. In the same manner is that it's possible to write bad code in any language, I'm of the opinion that some languages make it hard to write good code. C++ is one of those languages. It's possible to use it and do a good job, but the odds are stacked against you. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 22:27:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A61D37B417 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68101 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2002 06:27:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:27:51 -0600 To: Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , anderson@centtech.com Cc: Josef Karthauser , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305165222.GC705@raggedclown.net> <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez types: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 03:40:17PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > As someone pointed out, in this particular case (attacking a freebsd.org > box), should be defined as the action of a script kiddiot. Calling > him/her a hacker would be offensive to real hackers :-) Right. The problem is, the media people want to call them hackers. I had one of my clients boxes broken into at one point (I wasn't admining it, so don't blame me). We knew who it was, and knew the kid was abou 15. The PR person wanted to call them "hackers". I pointed out that "juvenile delinquent" would be more accurate, and would counter the goals the JD in question, by associating him with taggers and gangs instead of the elite of the programming world. The PR person responded that that wasn't news, so we had to call him a "hacker". Cliff Sarginson types: > But since all hackers are crackers, but not every cracker is crackers, > or a hacker.. :) I hope you're kidding about the first part. Not all hackers are crackers, though Eisner and company is working on changing that. > I believe that it is actually the word "hackers" that has been hijacked > and misused by journalists when they mean crackers. Correct. > Hackers comes from the common expression "to hack code" and is not > (or was not) perjorative. A crackers is not just someone who breaks > game protections, it is someone more like a "safe cracker", someone > who breaks any kind of secure (so-called) system. I would say that doing that to your system was fine, but doing it to someone else's was being a cracker. Again, they're changing the laws to make both acts illegal. > I always find this talk of "script kiddies" as sweeping away a problem > as some kind of juvenile vandalism. There are much more serious people > at work on it than that. Both cases exist, but the ones that get the press are almost all JD's, even if they grew up without growing out of juvenility. The people who are serious about it generally don't want press, and don't want you to know they've been in. They're not doing it to learn, they're engaged n corporate espionage, or theft of real resources, etc. Eric Anderson types: > Heh, yea, it seems to me that crackers were those people that pirated softare > and made cracks, hence crackers. Hackers were the people that, well, HACKed.. I > see people referring to hackers as crackers and crackers as hackers.. I'm not > sure when the confusion started, but about 10-15 years ago, there wasn't much > media hype about this stuff.. The media created the hype. The term "hacker" actually came out of the MIT model train club. The best computer geeks at MIT tended to be members - for a while, anyway. I don't know why the media picked up that term, other than that there was no other one-word description that came anywhere near the mark. > (If a hacker is a cracker's attacker, and the attacker's hacked cracker is not a > hacker, then is a cracker the hacker's attacker?) mu. > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and > > clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P No, it was made up by real hackers - the kind that get invited to the hackers conference - to describe people who break into computer systems that they aren't allowed onto, so they could continue calling themselves hackers without people assuming they were some kind of criminal. I was that the hackes conference the press was allowed to visit. The piece on he conference made it out like we were all some kind of villains, plotting the next attack on Silicon Valley. Never mind that a measurable percentage of the *ownership* of Silicon Valley was in attendance. Notable for his absense was Captain Crunch. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 22:36:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E4737B419 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16iV27-000AC7-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 06:36:15 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 0E2EF13040 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:36:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 7130522595; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:36:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:36:11 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020306063611.GA2510@raggedclown.net> References: <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:27:51AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > But since all hackers are crackers, but not every cracker is crackers, > > or a hacker.. :) > > I hope you're kidding about the first part. Not all hackers are > crackers, though Eisner and company is working on changing that. > Of course I am kidding! I meant crackers in the more ordinary sense of being slightly loopy :) (No offense meant). -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 22:52:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8B37B416 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0185.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.185] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iVHd-0000Jj-00; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:52:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C85BC7A.C8EC8E0D@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:51:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , anderson@centtech.com, Josef Karthauser , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305165222.GC705@raggedclown.net> <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > No, it was made up by real hackers - the kind that get invited to the > hackers conference - to describe people who break into computer > systems that they aren't allowed onto, so they could continue calling > themselves hackers without people assuming they were some kind of > criminal. > > I was that the hackes conference the press was allowed to visit. The > piece on he conference made it out like we were all some kind of > villains, plotting the next attack on Silicon Valley. Never mind that > a measurable percentage of the *ownership* of Silicon Valley was in > attendance. > > Notable for his absense was Captain Crunch. FWIW, John is working as the front guy for a security company these days, so he's unlikely to show up anywhere he might be considered shady. ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 23: 4:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE4D737B420 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68416 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2002 07:04:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15493.49014.254461.125446@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 01:04:22 -0600 To: "Steve B." , Joe Halpin Cc: "Eugene L. Vorokov" , , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> <200203051407.g25E7Cd67446@bugz.infotecs.ru> <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Geeze, spend a day at the doctors, and look what happens. The mst interesting thing to show up on -chat in the entire time I've been reading it. Language debates are such fun. Steve B. types: > I take a simplistic view after years of C++. > > C++ is good for large projects that need to be maintained into the future. > Then the advantages of OO starts to kick in. For small projects that won't > change much then C is the better choice IMO. But for large projects, the disadvantages of C++ kick in, so you don't really gain much. Almost every OO language design decision in C++ is wrong. So you get all the disadvantages of C, bundled with all the disadvantages of OO as well. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eugene L. Vorokov" > > I have a small problem. I work for software development company and > > write daemons and console tools for Unix. My boss wants everything > > to be written in C++, because he thinks C++ is cool. I prefer C > > for such tasks, but I cannot really put good arguments of why and > > where C++ can be worse than C. I know many of you prefer C too. > > Can you please explain some disadvantages of C++ comparing to C ? > > Is it slower, does it produce less effective code, why is it like > > that, etc ... or please direct me to some articles where this can > > be explained. If he wants to wrinte in C++ because C++ is hot, then just write C and compile it with the C++ compiler. If he wants an O-O language, then shell out the bucks to get Eiffel and it's IDE from Meyer (I'd like to claim a relationship, but I doubt it), so you actually get the benefits of O-O. Joe Halpin types: > 1. C++ is a more difficult language than C because it does more stuff > than C. Ditto vs Java. No, it doesn't do more stuff than C, Neither does Java. See the Church-Turing thesis. Java and C++ are harder to learn because they have more *features* than C. That's a different thing, and doesn't necessarily make the language more powerful. One of my favorite languages is Scheme, where the general design principle was to make the language more powerful by removing things. I quit using it before they added macros, in part because I couldn't get the DECWRL Scheme->C compiler to compile with SAS C 6.0. Maybe I'll take another look. I use Python these days, which doesn't have macros - which are the most powerful programming construct in modern LISP. > For years I have been seeing this assertion on the net over and over. I > still don't see the expected result (ie, Java applications displacing > C/C++ applications). I see it happening, then the products vanish because they can't compete on a speed basis. VM's were a good idea when UCSD did it back in the mid 70s. I think the hardware is fast enough to support it now, but you've got to tie the parts together write. Python is succeeding in some strange places, because it's trivial to take a collection of subroutines that deal with a data structure they pass back and forth as arguments, and turn it into a Python object. Which means you get to play with those complex, compiled environments in an interpreted environment that could be used as a shell, if you were really crazy. In fact, that's one of the things most VM designs have that Java (and Perl) is missing - the REPL. When I have to write Java, I debug my classes by firing up JPython, then playing with the Java objects in the JPython REPL loop. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 5 23:28:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7405837B404 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68701 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2002 07:28:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15493.50478.430179.903538@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 01:28:46 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , anderson@centtech.com, Josef Karthauser , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <3C85BC7A.C8EC8E0D@mindspring.com> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305165222.GC705@raggedclown.net> <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> <3C85BC7A.C8EC8E0D@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > Notable for his absense was Captain Crunch. > FWIW, John is working as the front guy for a security > company these days, so he's unlikely to show up anywhere > he might be considered shady. ;^). Well, he showed up at a housewarming party of mine, and I've always considered him a bit shady ;->. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 0:42:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DA537B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EB3B33FC37; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:42:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:42:14 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Kenneth Culver Cc: "Brian T.Schellenberger" , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ Message-ID: <20020306094214.A96462@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Kenneth Culver , "Brian T.Schellenberger" , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020306030145.01E6ABA03@i8k.babbleon.org> <20020305225203.T7488-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020305225203.T7488-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org>; from culverk@alpha.yumyumyum.org on Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:53:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:53:00PM -0500, Kenneth Culver wrote: > I've never really used Objective C, although didn't Next use that in > NextStep/OpenStep? Indeed, there's an ongoing effort called GNUStep which tries to build a compatible API, and Obj-C bindings for several toolkits, including GTK+. I'= ve only started playing with obj-c for a while, but it looks very good. When I find a project that I want to program using the OOP paradigm, I'm sure Obj-C will be my language of choice. In Obj-C, all OO features are totally orthogonal to the C language, it's very clear where you are using objects and where you are not, since the syntax differs completely from normal C code. On the other hand, C++ seems to me like a patch on top of C. IMO it's a pity that Obj-C is not used more widely, seems to be used only in OS X while the rest of the world keeps coding in C++ and that abomination called Java. I never understood what's so hot about Java, well yes, compile once, debug anywhere, yeah right. Looks like an idiot proof C++ dialect to me, but that's just my opinion, which is probably heavily biased, since when I learned C I had been progamming in mc68k assembly for 5 years, so my brain tends to build code structures in that way, which is compatible with C, but not with java/c++. Back in the C++ vs C subject, there's also this faked Stroustrup interview that appeared some years ago. I've wondered many times if it wasn't real after all. I mean, a lot of things said there make sense ;-) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8hdZmnLctrNyFFPERAkrAAJ0XOK47yFOV38C18eHhAnwDM6aB7wCgyXRe mqHY+dc2NyDixzKg8y/1Fjc= =DAz2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 4:50:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA11A37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 04:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.254.218.32]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020306125009.WWTF1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:50:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3C86107D.A989F8A@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 05:50:05 -0700 From: Joe Warner Organization: nunyabiz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , anderson@centtech.com, Josef Karthauser , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305165222.GC705@raggedclown.net> <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C84CE12.5FFBFF0C@centtech.com> <20020305154017.GB17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305164957.A91495@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020305155144.GD17913@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020305171005.GD705@raggedclown.net> <15493.46823.314020.486195@guru.mired.org> <3C85BC7A.C8EC8E0D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BD1C868B951EC24FD347A167" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------BD1C868B951EC24FD347A167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lambert wrote: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > No, it was made up by real hackers - the kind that get invited to the > > hackers conference - to describe people who break into computer > > systems that they aren't allowed onto, so they could continue calling > > themselves hackers without people assuming they were some kind of > > criminal. > > > > I was that the hackes conference the press was allowed to visit. The > > piece on he conference made it out like we were all some kind of > > villains, plotting the next attack on Silicon Valley. Never mind that > > a measurable percentage of the *ownership* of Silicon Valley was in > > attendance. > > > > Notable for his absense was Captain Crunch. > > FWIW, John is working as the front guy for a security > company these days, so he's unlikely to show up anywhere > he might be considered shady. ;^). > > -- Terry I've been talking to John the last few days about his new product called the CrunchBox: http://www.shopip.com/ I signed up for a login and tried the online demo out and it looks to be a really great product. He seems like a nice fellow that has a lot to offer to the ComSec community. Joe > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com --------------BD1C868B951EC24FD347A167 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lambert wrote:
Mike Meyer wrote:
> No, it was made up by real hackers - the kind that get invited to the
> hackers conference - to describe people who break into computer
> systems that they aren't allowed onto, so they could continue calling
> themselves hackers without people assuming they were some kind of
> criminal.
>
> I was that the hackes conference the press was allowed to visit. The
> piece on he conference made it out like we were all some kind of
> villains, plotting the next attack on Silicon Valley. Never mind that
> a measurable percentage of the *ownership* of Silicon Valley was in
> attendance.
>
> Notable for his absense was Captain Crunch.

FWIW, John is working as the front guy for a security
company these days, so he's unlikely to show up anywhere
he might be considered shady.  ;^).

-- Terry

I've been talking to John the last few days about his new
product called the CrunchBox:

http://www.shopip.com/  I signed up for a login and tried the
online demo out and it looks to be a really great product.  He
seems like a nice fellow that has a lot to offer to the ComSec
community.

Joe
 

 

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

-- 
Joe Warner
Daemon News
Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org
Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/
BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com
  --------------BD1C868B951EC24FD347A167-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 5:24:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830FC37B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp229.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.229]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA31568; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:24:14 +1100 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp229.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.229] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g26DVFe15485; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:31:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:53:30 -0600" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 23:31:15 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 5th March 2002, "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: >Well, my line of thinking goes something like this: >A) Opera is a web browser >B) Web browsers are designed and optimized for rendering HTML and related > tasks >C) When you have more than one independant window in an area (be that > area a desktop, an individual application parent window, whatever), > there are a number of tasks involved in managing them, including > handling resizing, iconifying, maximizing, naming, selecting, etc. >D) There is a class of programs called "window managers" that are > designed and optimized for managing windows > >So, given (A&&B)&&(C&&D), trying to make a web browser act like a window >manager doesn't make much sense. That's fairly convincing in theory. In practice, I like what Opera does. :-) I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. >Also, with all-in-one, it's impossible to interleave the browser windows >with my other windows; additionally, it's practically impossible to see >more than one webpage at a time, unless I make the Opera window itself >a completely insane size, which then causes blocking of everything else >on my screen. Maybe more of my peculiar habits are relevant: I run a virtual desktop and Opera gets 100% of one of them (ie it runs in full screen mode). Within Opera, I only look at one page at a time, so it gets all the screen minus the tab list. At 1600x1200 with 100 windows open you still have lots of visible window left. Interleaving my browser windows with other windows is not of interest to me. >But in a X11 environment, when you can pick and choose among a number of >WM's with great configurability and scalability... what's the point? I await your recommendation for a window manager that will do all the things I like as well as these new fangled things you like. >If it's obsolete, then what is my P133 laptop, P120 backup workstation, >and 486/66 router? They are obsoleter, of course. :-) >You could, in theory I suppose, with such a setup simulate a dual 700 >with your single 1400 (and without having to deal with IPI's or cache >synchronization). But wouldn't you rather just have a dual 1400? I'd rather not *pay* for a dual 1400. Regardless, it is an interesting idea to hard limit all processes to at most 1/2 the cpu. I don't know of anyone who has done this already. And I don't know how much of the feel of a real dual cpu box this would have. Maybe one of us will have to code up a hack and find out. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 8:13:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E3B37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23994; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:13:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26GDMc33790; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:13:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.16418.45131.322945@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:13:22 -0700 To: Brett Glass Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> References: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I can write reliable code in C, but I also know that it takes so much > time, effort, and triple-checking that it saps my productivity. That's > why I strongly favor safer languages. (Those who were at BSDCon this > year may have seen the worm blocker/IDS I wrote for FreeBSD in 28 lines > of SNOBOL4....) So, why don't you like Java if you like safer languages? Have you *tried* do something in Java, or are you assuming that's it's a bad language because of it's C-like syntax? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 9: 2:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CEB37B426 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16iens-000Fr6-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:02:12 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id E3E0613040 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:02:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 18FEE22595; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:02:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:02:12 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ Message-ID: <20020306170212.GC4962@raggedclown.net> References: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> <15494.16418.45131.322945@caddis.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15494.16418.45131.322945@caddis.yogotech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org C++ is over-complicated nonsense. And Bjorn Shoestrap's book a danger to public health. I tried reading it once, I was in recovery for months. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 9:23:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2137137B405; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26787; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:23:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26HNZe34371; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:23:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:23:35 -0700 To: Raymond Wiker Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moving this thread over to -chat as well. We'll get them all over in time ] Raymond Wiker writes: > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > Well, to be frank, I've seen a few C++ coding style documents, that suggest > > avoiding altogether when writing in C++. > > I assume you mean ? > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > , and friends. The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the data is one good reason. iostreams gives all the control the the person who writes the class, so in order to print things out, you have to extend the class (which often means peeking into it's private data, a violation of layering), or doing all sort of kludges/hacks to get things working. > I also cannot see any reason not to use exceptions, the standard > containers, the string classes etc. Because exceptions are *still* not portable across multiple platforms. There are N different implementations of exceptions, 'standard containers', and all behave slightly different. IMO, this is probably the biggest single stumbling block for using C++ extended features. Very few people know how to use these features correctly, and since they were so unportable, they are essentially unused except by those folks who worked very hard at using them, and as such have a higher clue-factor than most. > Used properly, these make it possible to write code that is > inherently safer than anything built around printf/scanf, char *, > longjump, etc. Without these (and a few others) you may just as well > stay with standard C. Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a class you don't want to look at. Exceptions are great, but there are too many gotchas because the behavior is not standardizes well enough to depend on them. (And, if you're not careful, you can cause yourself *all* sorts of problems using them.) > Then again, if you want to do object-oriented programming, C++ > is probably not the right choice. If you want to use several different > paradigms simulataneously in one language, C++ may be a better fit - > although Common Lisp is a much better choice :-) Except that it's *obnoxiously* hard to deploy it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 9:47:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tepid.osl.fast.no (tepid.osl.fast.no [213.188.9.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8666737B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from raw.grenland.fast.no.fast.no (raw.grenland.fast.no [192.168.48.104]) by tepid.osl.fast.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA13408; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:47:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Raymond.Wiker@fast.no) From: Raymond Wiker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:47:03 +0100 To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Cc: Raymond Wiker , Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams writes: > [ Moving this thread over to -chat as well. We'll get them all over in time ] > > Raymond Wiker writes: > > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > > Well, to be frank, I've seen a few C++ coding style documents, that suggest > > > avoiding altogether when writing in C++. > > > > I assume you mean ? > > > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > > , and friends. > > The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is > displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the > data is one good reason. > > iostreams gives all the control the the person who writes the class, so > in order to print things out, you have to extend the class (which often > means peeking into it's private data, a violation of layering), or doing > all sort of kludges/hacks to get things working. And exactly *how* is this helped by using printf instead? If you want to have control of the output using printf, you *still* need access to class members, including (possibly) protected data. > > I also cannot see any reason not to use exceptions, the standard > > containers, the string classes etc. > > Because exceptions are *still* not portable across multiple platforms. > There are N different implementations of exceptions, 'standard > containers', and all behave slightly different. I disagree with this. C++ compilers may not be up-to-date wrt to the latest standard (e.g, g++ 2.95.x vs ), but this should be a "transient" problem. It's certainly the case that if you don't require your compiler vendor to comply with the standard, they don't really have an incentive to provide these features. Further, if you don't use the advanced features of C++, you may just as well stick to to C. > IMO, this is probably the biggest single stumbling block for using C++ > extended features. Very few people know how to use these features > correctly, and since they were so unportable, they are essentially > unused except by those folks who worked very hard at using them, and as > such have a higher clue-factor than most. They *aren't* that unportable. > > Used properly, these make it possible to write code that is > > inherently safer than anything built around printf/scanf, char *, > > longjump, etc. Without these (and a few others) you may just as well > > stay with standard C. > > Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't > say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, > you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a > class you don't want to look at. The intricacies of print/scanf may be *well* known, as you say, but *not* to the average C programmer - certainly no more than the intricacies std::string, std::stream and the standard comtainer are to the average C++ programmer. Some people think that the standard string classes are to inefficient, or too dissimilar from char *, so they end up writing their own string classes. They end up with something that has lower quality than the standard classes, is underdocumented, underfeatured and probably inefficient. > Exceptions are great, but there are too many gotchas because the > behavior is not standardizes well enough to depend on them. (And, if > you're not careful, you can cause yourself *all* sorts of problems using > them.) I'd *really* like an example of this. The only serious argument I've heard about exceptions in the last couple of years is that they are inefficient, and even that is not a valid argument for avoiding them completely. > > Then again, if you want to do object-oriented programming, C++ > > is probably not the right choice. If you want to use several different > > paradigms simulataneously in one language, C++ may be a better fit - > > although Common Lisp is a much better choice :-) > > Except that it's *obnoxiously* hard to deploy it. Not really - if you assume that you have equivalent infrastructure for Common Lisp as for C++, Perl, Java etc, there is no great difference. A comparison to Java is obviously not the last word. For example, the last week or so a colleague and I have been struggling with getting RW libraries to work on a couple of platforms. The RW people, in their strictly limited wisdom, have decided to use an interactive, graphical, Java-based abomination to build the libraries. They should be shot, then hanged, then shot again. Note: I don't actually like C++, but I find that it gets better if I can actually use the high-level features of the language. //Raymond. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10: 3:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55CF37B419 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0158.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.158] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ifka-0004fR-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:02:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:02:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Nate Williams , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:15 PM 3/5/2002, Nate Williams wrote: > >Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > >little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > >reservation that C++ sucks. > > Actually, C sucks too, but C++ sucks more. Neither is a professional > tool; you have to be twice the professional to use either as to use > a safer language (IMHO, of course). Languages with training wheels are so that people who would otherwise have to learn how to ask "Would you like fries with that?" can contribute productively to programming projects. Frankly, I'm still not convinced that it's worth the tradeoff -- besides, sometimes I forget to order fries. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10: 9:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6420C37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0158.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.158] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ifqs-0004mc-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3C865B42.ED79FF0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:09:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Java vs. SNOBOL4 References: <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> <15494.16418.45131.322945@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > I can write reliable code in C, but I also know that it takes so much > > time, effort, and triple-checking that it saps my productivity. That's > > why I strongly favor safer languages. (Those who were at BSDCon this > > year may have seen the worm blocker/IDS I wrote for FreeBSD in 28 lines > > of SNOBOL4....) > > So, why don't you like Java if you like safer languages? Have you > *tried* do something in Java, or are you assuming that's it's a bad > language because of it's C-like syntax? He likes *safer* languages, not *different* languages. Though you couldn't tell from his choice of SNOBOL4... 8^p 8-) 8-) }B^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:10:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BE237B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28632; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:10:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26IAKo34991; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:10:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:10:20 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Nate Williams , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Not so. Having done C professionally for umpteen years, C++ for a > > >little less than umpteen years, and Java for 4, I can say w/out > > >reservation that C++ sucks. > > > > Actually, C sucks too, but C++ sucks more. Neither is a professional > > tool; you have to be twice the professional to use either as to use > > a safer language (IMHO, of course). > > Languages with training wheels are so that people who would > otherwise have to learn how to ask "Would you like fries with > that?" can contribute productively to programming projects. This is argument made to appease your ego, and have no bias on reality. I can write C/C++/Java as good or better than most, and Java allows me to get more done in a shorter amount of time than any other language. And, not only that, my resulting programs are more reliable and bugfree since I can spend more time worrying about the program, and not the language itself. I'm not saying that other languages don't also exhibit these characteristics, but C++ is one of those languages that constantly gets in the way. Rather than spending time solving the problem, I spend more time worrying about the pitfalls of the language... Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:18:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B626737B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28891; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:16:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26IGlI35044; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:16:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.23822.972400.759310@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:16:46 -0700 To: Raymond Wiker Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > [ Moving this thread over to -chat as well. We'll get them all over in time ] > > > > Raymond Wiker writes: > > > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > > > Well, to be frank, I've seen a few C++ coding style documents, that suggest > > > > avoiding altogether when writing in C++. > > > > > > I assume you mean ? > > > > > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > > > , and friends. > > > > The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is > > displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the > > data is one good reason. > > > > iostreams gives all the control the the person who writes the class, so > > in order to print things out, you have to extend the class (which often > > means peeking into it's private data, a violation of layering), or doing > > all sort of kludges/hacks to get things working. > > And exactly *how* is this helped by using printf instead? If > you want to have control of the output using printf, you *still* need > access to class members, including (possibly) protected data. Easy. class FP { public: FP() { _value = 0.0; } FP(double v) { _value = v; } float getValue() { return _value; } private: float _value; } int main() { FP f(1.0); printf("Value = %3.2f\n", f.getValue()); return 1; } However, for native data types (float, double, short, int, long, etc..), one rarely uses classes. > > > I also cannot see any reason not to use exceptions, the standard > > > containers, the string classes etc. > > > > Because exceptions are *still* not portable across multiple platforms. > > There are N different implementations of exceptions, 'standard > > containers', and all behave slightly different. > > I disagree with this. C++ compilers may not be up-to-date wrt > to the latest standard (e.g, g++ 2.95.x vs ), but this should > be a "transient" problem. It's not a transient problem when you can't use it *today*. Try using C++ exceptions on *any* released version of FreeBSD. Try using it on HP/UX. Try using it on AIX. Try using standard containers and see how they behave differently on different releases of Solaris. > It's certainly the case that if you don't > require your compiler vendor to comply with the standard, they don't > really have an incentive to provide these features. Bingo. If they aren't globally available, then they aren't a standard part of the language. > Further, if you don't use the advanced features of C++, you may just > as well stick to to C. Naw, it's still C++. All versions of C++ support inheritance, scoping protection, object initialization and teardown, as well as function/operator overloading. Of the above described features, only operator overloading tends to cause strange problems. Those above features make C++ 'safer' than C, but very few programmers use the above small-subset of available features. The tendency to point the gun at your foot (because I *can*) is too great. Face it, programmers as a lot have large egos, and who wants to admit that they're incapable of using a feature correctly? > > IMO, this is probably the biggest single stumbling block for using C++ > > extended features. Very few people know how to use these features > > correctly, and since they were so unportable, they are essentially > > unused except by those folks who worked very hard at using them, and as > > such have a higher clue-factor than most. > > They *aren't* that unportable. See above. I can only use the portably/safely on a single platform. (Windows). And, the compiler on that platform is so awful that I spent a large portion of my time trying to determine if it's an optimizer bug, or some strange interaction that I didn't complete think through in my C++ classes. > > > Used properly, these make it possible to write code that is > > > inherently safer than anything built around printf/scanf, char *, > > > longjump, etc. Without these (and a few others) you may just as well > > > stay with standard C. > > > > Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't > > say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, > > you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a > > class you don't want to look at. > > The intricacies of print/scanf may be *well* known, as you > say, but *not* to the average C programmer This I disagree with. Back when I learned C in college (late 80s), it wasn't as well known as it is now. However, even back then we discussed some of the pitfalls of scanf. With printf/scanf, at least you have only *one* set of routines to deal with. With streams, you have a bunch of different pitfalls that may vary from class to class. Simple *is* better. > Some people think that the standard string classes are to > inefficient, or too dissimilar from char *, so they end up writing > their own string classes. Or it may be that the standard string classes aren't nearly as helpful as they could be. They're getting better, but the 'better' versions aren't standardized. By the time C++ *finally* had a standard that was useful for the average programmer, the rest of the world had moved on. > > Exceptions are great, but there are too many gotchas because the > > behavior is not standardizes well enough to depend on them. (And, if > > you're not careful, you can cause yourself *all* sorts of problems using > > them.) > > I'd *really* like an example of this. Because they aren't completely standard, you can get different behavior depending on the implementation used. Heck, g++ supports two different types of exception handling, and one works better than the other. > The only serious > argument I've heard about exceptions in the last couple of years is > that they are inefficient, and even that is not a valid argument for > avoiding them completely. Agreed. I'm actually not against exceptions, except (;) for the fact that I can't use them safely. I *like* excptions. :) > > > Then again, if you want to do object-oriented programming, C++ > > > is probably not the right choice. If you want to use several different > > > paradigms simulataneously in one language, C++ may be a better fit - > > > although Common Lisp is a much better choice :-) > > > > Except that it's *obnoxiously* hard to deploy it. > > Not really - if you assume that you have equivalent > infrastructure for Common Lisp as for C++, Perl, Java etc, there is no > great difference. Been there, done that, ain't going there again. It's *OBNOXIOUSLY* hard to deploy it! > A comparison to Java is obviously not the last word. For > example, the last week or so a colleague and I have been struggling > with getting RW libraries to work on a couple of platforms. The RW > people, in their strictly limited wisdom, have decided to use an > interactive, graphical, Java-based abomination to build the > libraries. They should be shot, then hanged, then shot again. Just because it's cool/new doesn't mean it's appropriate. :) Java isn't *the* solution to everything either. Every tool has places where it's more appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that just because it'll work, it's necessarily appropriate. In the same manner, I'm not re-writing the software in my current project in Java, since it's in C++. It *could* all be re-written in Java, and I honestly believe it would run *faster*, and the design would allow for the kind of flexibility we're currently trying to shoe-horn into the system. However, it's not an appropriate use of resources, and we simply don't have the time to do it right. So, we keep plugging along with C++.... Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:22:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8411E37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0158.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.158] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ig3F-0001Hr-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:22:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C865E41.960B4E7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:21:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Raymond Wiker , Giorgos Keramidas , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > > , and friends. > > The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is > displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the > data is one good reason. Not to mention that the libraries to which you link are most likely written in C, and will use the conflicting stdio paradigm. Personally, I avoid stream I/O. Java's reliance on stream I/O is one of its worst attributes, IMO. Java practically *encourages* the interpretation of partial contents of a stream before the who has arrived. This is *precisely* the source of one of the worst security problems within Microsoft OutLook: it attempts to interpret the meaning of MIME components before it has the full message in hand. Java repeats Microsoft's mistake, and then codifies it into necessity. For this to work in Java, you pretty much have to save a message to a local file, with a seperate stream, and then interpret the stream from the file, once you are sure it is intact. Too bad the JavaMail API doesn't do this, and too bad it instances uninitialized objects which it then has to post initialize (e.g. new Message instances, etc.). Maybe you can blame this on the design of MIME, such that not everything can be done correctly in a single pass, unless you know that you have the entire encapsulated message in hand. On the other hand, given that MIME is a reality, maybe you can blame it on using the wrong tool for the job. Realize that I understand Outlook's desire to assign meaning and intelligence to the contents of message streams during download, so that the user can get the warm fuzzies that something is happening, as the headers for the downloading message are displayed in the UI. And don't think I don't understand that the JavaMail API is trying for the same thing. But realize that in all cases, correctness and non-transmission of worms because of the buffer overflows in the code that is nominally protected from them by encapsulation by other code is more important than "warm fuzzies". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:25:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2249437B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29244; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:25:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26IPc535267; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:25:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.24353.988127.429845@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:25:37 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , Raymond Wiker , Giorgos Keramidas , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C865E41.960B4E7@mindspring.com> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C865E41.960B4E7@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > > > , and friends. > > > > The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is > > displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the > > data is one good reason. > > Not to mention that the libraries to which you link are > most likely written in C, and will use the conflicting > stdio paradigm. > > Personally, I avoid stream I/O. Java's reliance on stream > I/O is one of its worst attributes, IMO. Java practically > *encourages* the interpretation of partial contents of a > stream before the who has arrived. This is changing. I was at a Bof and JavaOne a few years ago where a number of us whined about this to the Sun engineers. JDK1.4 has a new I/O paradigm that (supposedly) fixes a number of the issues. > Java repeats Microsoft's mistake, and then codifies it into > necessity. See above. > Maybe you can blame this on the design of MIME, such that > not everything can be done correctly in a single pass, > unless you know that you have the entire encapsulated > message in hand. On the other hand, given that MIME is a > reality, maybe you can blame it on using the wrong tool > for the job. MIME became the solution because it was the first to solve *a* job. (Sort like VHS vs. BETA). Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:38:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2E037B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0158.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.158] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16igIN-0006fM-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:37:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:37:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > I can write C/C++/Java as good or better than most, and Java allows me > to get more done in a shorter amount of time than any other language. > And, not only that, my resulting programs are more reliable and bugfree > since I can spend more time worrying about the program, and not the > language itself. Your "resulting programs" are subjective to you. If you were the person tasked with doing the project, and I needed these attributes on the resulting code (likely), then Java would probably be the language of choice. But that's subjective to you. > I'm not saying that other languages don't also exhibit these > characteristics, but C++ is one of those languages that constantly gets > in the way. Rather than spending time solving the problem, I spend more > time worrying about the pitfalls of the language... Again, that's subjective to you. I've been doing C++ for about 20 years now, prefer to code in C still, for most things, but was able to finish ~22,000 lines of code in a period of four weeks (~550 lines of code a day) in C++ that then has had a total of 3 defects (two one-line and one four-line). I could not have done that in C, and I could not have done that in Java (I'm a competent Java programmer, though hardly 20 years worth, but 8 weeks would not have been enough). This is incredibly ironic to me, as the C++ code in question was a reimplementation of the Java APIs necessary for support of one of Sun's API designs for Java in C++, with the resulting high end code using the API (what the heck; if Sun is going to spend man-decades and millions of dollars developing an abstract model that's applicable to a problem I'm facing, I might as well use their model). So it's possible to implement the Java programming model in C++ (I even had full Exception class support). The other advantage is that the C++ code ran in a known, deterministic amount of memory on an embedded system; Java VM's, even Kaffe, seem to want to take at least 8M of memory. This could not have been done in Java, as the stream I/O abstraction broke the ability to have full data available before making a decision on interpretation. FWIW, the code was a better "fetchmail". The same project also served to show that a Cathedral builds significantly better code than a Bazaar. I already knew that, though, since Cathedrals require design to get right... when was the last time you say a yurt with a flying buttress? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:43:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979AB37B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:43:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0158.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.158] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16igNr-0000gn-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:43:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C86633F.7DACBDE0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:43:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Raymond Wiker , Giorgos Keramidas , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.23822.972400.759310@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > I disagree with this. C++ compilers may not be up-to-date wrt > > to the latest standard (e.g, g++ 2.95.x vs ), but this should > > be a "transient" problem. > > It's not a transient problem when you can't use it *today*. Try using > C++ exceptions on *any* released version of FreeBSD. Actually, they finally work. Jeremy Allison and I dealt with the problem as of GCC 2.95, though a fix didn't make it into FreeBSD until EGCS. The main problems were that the RTTI didn't work, and there weren't per thread exception stacks. EGCS implemented the latter in an incredibly stupid way, actually. The RTTI problem was really a problem in the FreeBSD .mk files, since setting DESTDIR screws with the include and library paths for C++, putting the system includes and library patch in front of those for the installed compiler for any non-system compiler. > Try using it on HP/UX. Try using it on AIX. Try using standard > containers and see how they behave differently on different releases of > Solaris. Thankfully, RTTI is now standardized. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:47:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966F337B416 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00290; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26Ikrw35564; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:53 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I can write C/C++/Java as good or better than most, and Java allows me > > to get more done in a shorter amount of time than any other language. > > And, not only that, my resulting programs are more reliable and bugfree > > since I can spend more time worrying about the program, and not the > > language itself. > > Your "resulting programs" are subjective to you. True. > If you were the person tasked with doing the project, and I needed > these attributes on the resulting code (likely), then Java would > probably be the language of choice. But that's subjective to you. Agreed, although my experience are similar to others who have done both C, C++, and Java programs I've spoken with. > > I'm not saying that other languages don't also exhibit these > > characteristics, but C++ is one of those languages that constantly gets > > in the way. Rather than spending time solving the problem, I spend more > > time worrying about the pitfalls of the language... > > Again, that's subjective to you. I've been doing C++ for > about 20 years now I find that *really* hard to believe, since C++ hasn't been out for that long. :) :) :) (I've got Stroustrup's book next to me, and it wasn't even started until '85, and I don't know when the first C++ compiler became publically available.) > prefer to code in C still, for most > things, but was able to finish ~22,000 lines of code in a > period of four weeks # of lines of code doesn't mean much to me. I can generate lots of lines of code too, but it doesn't mean they are necessary. (The term I heard to describe over-engineering a solution was 'gold-plating'). I'm not saying you've done that, but it happens. > This is incredibly ironic to me, as the C++ code in > question was a reimplementation of the Java APIs necessary > for support of one of Sun's API designs for Java in C++, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You redid JavaMail. I thought JavaMail was poor, and you did it in 4 weeks. I did all of what I needed it to do in an afternoon, so *nah-nah-nah*. :P > The other advantage is that the C++ code ran in a known, > deterministic amount of memory on an embedded system; > Java VM's, even Kaffe, seem to want to take at least 8M > of memory. Kaffe wasn't a good implementation of the VM. However, I will state that the minimum size was quite large. (No worse than most other interpreted languages). However, it didn't have to get any bigger. I had a server that server 400 real-time clients running in under 24MB on a Sparc/RISC platform. > The same project also served to show that a Cathedral > builds significantly better code than a Bazaar. You're not going to get *any* argument from me on that one (I agree with you), but I'm *NOT* going to get sucked into that discussion. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 10:59:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A9437B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00818; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:59:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26IxQV35679; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:59:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.26382.819650.400667@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:59:26 -0700 To: Brett Glass Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306114140.02d4baa0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306114140.02d4baa0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >So, why don't you like Java if you like safer languages? > > Because of the "oh, no!" factor. > > You see, whenever Java starts up in a user's browser, the result > is invariably a long delay (during which the browser freezes). The use of Java doesn't necessarily imply the user of a browser. As a matter of fact, I don't consider Java on the browser to be a viable/useful use of Java, except for 'Toy' applets (bouncing dots, waving flags, etc..) > The computer responds slowly, if at all, and memory is often > exhausted. And when the program finally runs, it's usually trivial eye > candy. See above. You're try to use Java on a bloated browser, for an application that doesn't require Java (which has high initial overhead). I meant using Java for something *realistic*, aka an "application". > Now, you know and I know that this is mostly an *implementation* > problem (though some of the overhead really is required by the > language and the runtime environment.) But users don't. When you say > you're working in Java, they expect the worst due to their painful > browser experiences. Most users don't know Java is being used, since the browser experience is painful whether or not Java is being used or not. :) > What's more, I'm not an OOP fanatic. Anything that's inescapably > object oriented requires a long learning curve and can be quite > inefficient. I *used* to think that way until I actually took the time to implement something that forced (!) me to design something in an OOP way., without the language getting in the way. Being C-like I didn't have to re-learn alot of what I already know, so I could spend more time on the design instead of trying to figure out the language so much. Also, I was lucky in that the project had no hard and fast deadlines, so we were free to re-implement some of the basic infrastructure two or three times before we brought it to market. We were able to correct a number of mistakes we made in the first iteration, and then go back and correct our 'fixes' in the third iteration. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11: 6:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36B637B419 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0154.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.154] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16igjv-0007Nm-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:06:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3C866897.649BCC6F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:05:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > Again, that's subjective to you. I've been doing C++ for > > about 20 years now > > I find that *really* hard to believe, since C++ hasn't been out for that > long. :) :) :) > > (I've got Stroustrup's book next to me, and it wasn't even started until > '85, and I don't know when the first C++ compiler became publically > available.) I'm rounding... 8-). We had "cfront" and "The Oregon C++ Compiler" back in the early 1980's (definitely before 1985, since I was working by then). > > The other advantage is that the C++ code ran in a known, > > deterministic amount of memory on an embedded system; > > Java VM's, even Kaffe, seem to want to take at least 8M > > of memory. > > Kaffe wasn't a good implementation of the VM. However, I will state > that the minimum size was quite large. (No worse than most other > interpreted languages). However, it didn't have to get any bigger. I > had a server that server 400 real-time clients running in under 24MB on > a Sparc/RISC platform. The costs are much less if you can share a JVM, that's true. But comparing the Sun JVM with the Kaffe, I've actually never seen the Sun JVM smaller. Kaffe is really surprisingly small-footed for a JVM. 8-). > > The same project also served to show that a Cathedral > > builds significantly better code than a Bazaar. > > You're not going to get *any* argument from me on that one (I agree with > you), but I'm *NOT* going to get sucked into that discussion. :) Heh. You're no fun... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11:10: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C911437B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01220; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:09:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26J9Zb35828; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:09:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.26991.417780.56393@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:09:35 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C866897.649BCC6F@mindspring.com> References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C866897.649BCC6F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Again, that's subjective to you. I've been doing C++ for > > > about 20 years now > > > > I find that *really* hard to believe, since C++ hasn't been out for that > > long. :) :) :) > > > > (I've got Stroustrup's book next to me, and it wasn't even started until > > '85, and I don't know when the first C++ compiler became publically > > available.) > > I'm rounding... 8-). We had "cfront" and "The Oregon C++ > Compiler" back in the early 1980's (definitely before 1985, > since I was working by then). Again, you *couldn't* have, since it didn't exist. > > > The other advantage is that the C++ code ran in a known, > > > deterministic amount of memory on an embedded system; > > > Java VM's, even Kaffe, seem to want to take at least 8M > > > of memory. > > > > Kaffe wasn't a good implementation of the VM. However, I will state > > that the minimum size was quite large. (No worse than most other > > interpreted languages). However, it didn't have to get any bigger. I > > had a server that server 400 real-time clients running in under 24MB on > > a Sparc/RISC platform. > > The costs are much less if you can share a JVM, that's > true. But comparing the Sun JVM with the Kaffe, I've > actually never seen the Sun JVM smaller. Kaffe is really > surprisingly small-footed for a JVM. 8-). My experience differs with yours. (However, I'm comparing Sun's JDK1.0 vs. Kaffe, since Kaffe didn't support many 1.1 features, and as such wasn't usable for 1.1.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11:21:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A952037B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0154.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.154] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16igvf-0002Jy-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:18:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C866B6F.B5EE54E2@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:18:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306075350.00ddfb00@localhost> <3C857080.44C5236B@mindspring.com> <20020305193028.H6706-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306114140.02d4baa0@localhost> <15494.26382.819650.400667@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > >So, why don't you like Java if you like safer languages? > > > > Because of the "oh, no!" factor. > > > > You see, whenever Java starts up in a user's browser, the result > > is invariably a long delay (during which the browser freezes). > > The use of Java doesn't necessarily imply the user of a browser. As a > matter of fact, I don't consider Java on the browser to be a > viable/useful use of Java, except for 'Toy' applets (bouncing dots, > waving flags, etc..) Heh. I hacked my Netscape to say "Slowing down...." instead of "Starting Java...". > > What's more, I'm not an OOP fanatic. Anything that's inescapably > > object oriented requires a long learning curve and can be quite > > inefficient. > > I *used* to think that way until I actually took the time to implement > something that forced (!) me to design something in an OOP way., without > the language getting in the way. > > Being C-like I didn't have to re-learn alot of what I already know, so I > could spend more time on the design instead of trying to figure out the > language so much. Also, I was lucky in that the project had no hard and > fast deadlines, so we were free to re-implement some of the basic > infrastructure two or three times before we brought it to market. > > We were able to correct a number of mistakes we made in the first > iteration, and then go back and correct our 'fixes' in the third > iteration. :) Yes. Object decomposition has a lot of value, even when compared to functional decomposition, for avoiding a lot of problems. Like anything, it's a tool, and the more tools you have, beyond just a pair of vice grips and a flat blade screwdriver, the better mechanic you can be (on the flip side, buying a bunch of tools doesn't make you a mechanic 8-)). When I was doing technical review on Vahalia's book back in 1995, I explicitly recommended against using O-O based examples and terminology; at the time, it wasn't well taught in colleges (it was just starting to come into wider vogue), and using the terminology would have limited the accessability of the information. Given the knee-jerk reactions on this thread to O-O C++ and even Java programming, I'm still glad I pressed the issue, though at the time, it was a tough call. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11:35: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF50137B416 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0154.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.154] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ihBN-0006j5-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:34:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3C866F3D.BBB383A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:34:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C866897.649BCC6F@mindspring.com> <15494.26991.417780.56393@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > > (I've got Stroustrup's book next to me, and it wasn't even started until > > > '85, and I don't know when the first C++ compiler became publically > > > available.) > > > > I'm rounding... 8-). We had "cfront" and "The Oregon C++ > > Compiler" back in the early 1980's (definitely before 1985, > > since I was working by then). > > Again, you *couldn't* have, since it didn't exist. Ugh. You're right. It was January of 1988 for the Oregon Software C++ compiler (Taumetric's compiler). Amazing! It looks like g++ beat them to market in December of 1987. I'm pretty sure Weber had cfront 1.0 as part of the source license contract, but that may have been 1988 as well (the 2.0 came out in October of 1988). But all this was well after I left College to work, and only hung out there. Actually, there's a nice paper on all of it: "The C++ Report -- So Far" http://www.develop.com/hp/slip/gems.html -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11:39:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB1B37B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0154.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.154] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ihFn-0005X3-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:39:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C86704F.B88E4010@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:38:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams , Brett Glass , Kenneth Culver , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com> <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C866897.649BCC6F@mindspring.com> <15494.26991.417780.56393@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C866F3D.BBB383A@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > I'm pretty sure Weber had cfront 1.0 as part of the source > license contract, but that may have been 1988 as well (the > 2.0 came out in October of 1988). > > But all this was well after I left College to work, and only > hung out there. Aha. The cfront translater was available before Glockenspiel ported it to the PC in 1986. So my memory of my first exposure to C++ being 16 years ago could still be correct... barely. Nice to know I'm not totally losing my mind... ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 11:50:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tepid.osl.fast.no (tepid.osl.fast.no [213.188.9.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D95337B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from raw.grenland.fast.no.fast.no (raw.grenland.fast.no [192.168.48.104]) by tepid.osl.fast.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18051; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:50:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Raymond.Wiker@fast.no) From: Raymond Wiker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.29430.907768.151847@raw.grenland.fast.no> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:50:14 +0100 To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Cc: Raymond Wiker , Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15494.23822.972400.759310@caddis.yogotech.com> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.23822.972400.759310@caddis.yogotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams writes: > > And exactly *how* is this helped by using printf instead? If > > you want to have control of the output using printf, you *still* need > > access to class members, including (possibly) protected data. > > Easy. > > class FP > { > public: > FP() { _value = 0.0; } > FP(double v) { _value = v; } > > float getValue() { return _value; } > > private: > float _value; > } > > int > main() > { > FP f(1.0); > > printf("Value = %3.2f\n", f.getValue()); > > return 1; > } #include #include std::cout << setw(3) << setiosflags(ios::fixed) << setprecision(2) << f.getValue() << std::endl; --- this can obviously be simplified (by defining a new iomanipulator). How would you go about extending printf et al so that you can use printf to print a description of an object? With iostreams, this is trivial. > It's not a transient problem when you can't use it *today*. Try using > C++ exceptions on *any* released version of FreeBSD. I've been using exceptions in C++ for two or three years now. Then again, I have _not_ been using them with threads, which Terry Lambert mentioned somewhere in this thread. > Try using it on HP/UX. Try using it on AIX. Try using standard > containers and see how they behave differently on different releases of > Solaris. Have you actually _seen_ this sort of behaviour recently? > > It's certainly the case that if you don't > > require your compiler vendor to comply with the standard, they don't > > really have an incentive to provide these features. > > Bingo. If they aren't globally available, then they aren't a standard > part of the language. Oh, they are. There is a difference between a language definition and the lowest common denominator between implementations :-) > > Further, if you don't use the advanced features of C++, you may just > > as well stick to to C. > > Naw, it's still C++. All versions of C++ support inheritance, scoping > protection, object initialization and teardown, as well as > function/operator overloading. Of the above described features, only > operator overloading tends to cause strange problems. I haven't even seen problems with operator overloading. I think. It is entirely possible that I may remember something later :-) > > > Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't > > > say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, > > > you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a > > > class you don't want to look at. > > > > The intricacies of print/scanf may be *well* known, as you > > say, but *not* to the average C programmer > > This I disagree with. Back when I learned C in college (late 80s), it > wasn't as well known as it is now. However, even back then we discussed > some of the pitfalls of scanf. With printf/scanf, at least you have > only *one* set of routines to deal with. With streams, you have a bunch > of different pitfalls that may vary from class to class. Simple *is* > better. Only insofar as it isn't a source of errors. How do you protect against anyone doing something like const char *s = "http://this/is/a/strange/url?%23strange"; printf(s); I've just seen something very similar to this; not involving printf, but a non-standard string class :-) //Raymond. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 12:37:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB0637B41A for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04816; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:36:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g26Kacf36720; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:36:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.32214.569624.572704@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:36:38 -0700 To: Raymond Wiker Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <15494.29430.907768.151847@raw.grenland.fast.no> References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.23822.972400.759310@caddis.yogotech.com> <15494.29430.907768.151847@raw.grenland.fast.no> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > class FP > > { > > public: > > FP() { _value = 0.0; } > > FP(double v) { _value = v; } > > > > float getValue() { return _value; } > > > > private: > > float _value; > > } > > > > int > > main() > > { > > FP f(1.0); > > > > printf("Value = %3.2f\n", f.getValue()); > > > > return 1; > > } > > #include > #include > > std::cout << setw(3) << setiosflags(ios::fixed) << setprecision(2) > << f.getValue() << std::endl; Do you mind if I throwup now? > How would you go about extending printf et al so that you can > use printf to print a description of an object? With iostreams, this > is trivial. It can be done trivially in an object as well. class Name { public: Name(String name) { objname = new String(name); } ~Name() { delete objname; } private: String objname; } Obviously, this can be combined with the above to get the desired behavior. > > Try using it on HP/UX. Try using it on AIX. Try using standard > > containers and see how they behave differently on different releases of > > Solaris. > > Have you actually _seen_ this sort of behaviour recently? No, but most C++ code was written before it was possible. Now, there are (IMO) better languages than C++ to perform solutions, so finally years later when C++ can be used, it's been overtaken by events. > > > Further, if you don't use the advanced features of C++, you may just > > > as well stick to to C. > > > > Naw, it's still C++. All versions of C++ support inheritance, scoping > > protection, object initialization and teardown, as well as > > function/operator overloading. Of the above described features, only > > operator overloading tends to cause strange problems. > > I haven't even seen problems with operator overloading. I > think. It is entirely possible that I may remember something > later :-) Unintended creation/deletion/leaking of objects when doing using operator overloading is very common. Most of the Meyers book discuss these sorts of problems. Avoiding these kinds of problems causes the resulting code to be totally incomprehensible to all but the most clued developers. > > > > Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't > > > > say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, > > > > you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a > > > > class you don't want to look at. > > > > > > The intricacies of print/scanf may be *well* known, as you > > > say, but *not* to the average C programmer > > > > This I disagree with. Back when I learned C in college (late 80s), it > > wasn't as well known as it is now. However, even back then we discussed > > some of the pitfalls of scanf. With printf/scanf, at least you have > > only *one* set of routines to deal with. With streams, you have a bunch > > of different pitfalls that may vary from class to class. Simple *is* > > better. > > Only insofar as it isn't a source of errors. How do you > protect against anyone doing something like > > const char *s = "http://this/is/a/strange/url?%23strange"; > > printf(s); > > I've just seen something very similar to this; not involving > printf, but a non-standard string class :-) Stupid things can be done with *any* function. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 13:15: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B2C37B416; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020306211501.LBGH1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:15:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3C8686E6.F76B8B56@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:15:18 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> <200203051407.g25E7Cd67446@bugz.infotecs.ru> <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> <15493.49014.254461.125446@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > Joe Halpin types: > > 1. C++ is a more difficult language than C because it does more stuff > > than C. Ditto vs Java. > > No, it doesn't do more stuff than C, Neither does Java. See the > Church-Turing thesis. Java and C++ are harder to learn because they > have more *features* than C. Sorry, I thought "had more features" was something like "did more". For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you trying to say that all Turing complete languages are equally difficult? > > For years I have been seeing this assertion on the net over and over. I > > still don't see the expected result (ie, Java applications displacing > > C/C++ applications). > > I see it happening, then the products vanish because they can't > compete on a speed basis. VM's were a good idea when UCSD did it back > in the mid 70s. I think the hardware is fast enough to support it now, > but you've got to tie the parts together write. So are you agreeing with me? My experience is that most performance problems come about from the way something was coded, not the language it was coded in. Even in Java, you can do JNI functions if performance is really an issue. > Python is succeeding in some strange places, because it's trivial to > take a collection of subroutines that deal with a data structure they > pass back and forth as arguments, and turn it into a Python > object. Which means you get to play with those complex, compiled > environments in an interpreted environment that could be used as a > shell, if you were really crazy. Don't know anything about Python. How does this affect C vs C++? Or Java vs C++? or perfomance, or ... ? Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 13:38:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1D137B419 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020306213827.LTSQ1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:38:27 +0000 Message-ID: <3C868C60.37E156BB@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:38:40 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <20020305132457.A4700-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <001701c1c481$d0d5eab0$f642d9cf@DROID> <20020305231252.GC5328@hades.hell.gr> <3C8568E0.76415D99@mindspring.com> <20020306032029.GA7926@hades.hell.gr> <15494.13878.219807.949085@raw.grenland.fast.no> <15494.20631.682803.383406@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > [ Moving this thread over to -chat as well. We'll get them all over in time ] > > Raymond Wiker writes: > > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > > Well, to be frank, I've seen a few C++ coding style documents, that suggest > > > avoiding altogether when writing in C++. > > > > I assume you mean ? > > > Anyway, I *really* can't see any reason not to use , > > , and friends. > > The fact that the programmer has no control over *how* the data is > displayed, and relies on the person who wrote the class to display the > data is one good reason. One of the main points of iostreams is that the programmer has complete control over how the data for his class is diplayed. That's what inheritance is for. Or do you mean that you don't have complete control over how the data is displayed by a class that someone else wrote? If so, how do you get that with C (considering C doesn't have this concept at all)? Why should you have that? If I write a class, why should you have complete control over how it's displayed? Or do you have in mind the standard classes? If so, then you can always look at the standard to see what they output, which is what you'd have to do for printf(). No guessing, or source code needed. > iostreams gives all the control the the person who writes the class, so > in order to print things out, you have to extend the class (which often > means peeking into it's private data, a violation of layering), or doing > all sort of kludges/hacks to get things working. Can you provide an example of when this has to happen? I've been writing C++ for over ten years and I never had to do this. Even if you have to filter the output of another class, you can do that without having access to the base code. > > I also cannot see any reason not to use exceptions, the standard > > containers, the string classes etc. > > Because exceptions are *still* not portable across multiple platforms. > There are N different implementations of exceptions, 'standard > containers', and all behave slightly different. I'll agree with you here. In my opinion, exceptions are a pain in the ass, a portability nightmare, and generally just a source of problems. > IMO, this is probably the biggest single stumbling block for using C++ > extended features. Very few people know how to use these features > correctly, and since they were so unportable, they are essentially > unused except by those folks who worked very hard at using them, and as > such have a higher clue-factor than most. I agree here as well. > > Used properly, these make it possible to write code that is > > inherently safer than anything built around printf/scanf, char *, > > longjump, etc. Without these (and a few others) you may just as well > > stay with standard C. > > Safer? The intracacies of printf/scanf are *well* known, so I wouldn't > say that it's any more/less safe. At least with the above functions, > you *know* ahead of time the issues, vs. some random implementation of a > class you don't want to look at. What do you mean by random? C++ is defined by a standard that specifies how the standard I/O streams work, what they do, etc. How is that random? If you mean that compilers haven't universally caught up with the standard yet, I'll buy that. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 14:24:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay3-gui.server.ntli.net (relay3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.4.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8BF37B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc4-card4-0-cust162.cdf.cable.ntl.com ([80.4.14.162] helo=rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 16ijpv-0000E2-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 22:24:40 +0000 Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16ijpY-0000AI-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 22:24:16 +0000 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:24:16 +0000 From: Ceri To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Typing Injuries Message-ID: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've recently started suffering from symptoms of repetitive strain injury (tingling in my hands, pain in my elbow, aching tendons), and although my doctor assures me it's not arthritis, he seemed a bit lost as regards any further suggestions. So today I've been reading www.tifaq.org (Typing Injury FAQ) and while I can do things like improving my posture, I'm looking at different input devices as a major part of nipping this in the bud. I need something to type with, and something to point with, and thought that people on this list might possibly have some suggestions (you'll have to cc me please, as I'm not subscribed). I've got a microsoft intellimouse (the older ones, 1.1 I think) and a natural keyboard at home, and one of those horrible compaq deskpro keyboard + mouse at work. I'm looking to change both of these, but want to have the same keyboard/pointer pair at both, so cost is going to be a factor in my decision, unfortunately. I'm currently thinking about this keyboard : http://www.dvortyboards.com/typematrix2020_info.html It's got a decent layout which should make life easier, and switches between Dvorak and Qwerty layouts at the flick of a switch (Dvorak is apparently a good way of reducing keyboard related stress), which would be very good for me. I'm lost for ideas on mice. Also, if any posters in the UK know of any institution I can contact for further advice then that would be great. Thanks, Ceri -- keep a mild groove on To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 14:49:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2577637B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b157.otenet.gr [212.205.244.165]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g26MnAuj001973; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:49:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g26Mmu10030151; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:49:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g26FwTTn011775; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:58:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hades.hell.gr: charon set sender to keramida@freebsd.org using -f Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:58:28 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Stephen McKay Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-06 23:31, Stephen McKay wrote: > I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, > and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, > even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. Actually, so-called modern humans are also poor at handling 100 windows! HOLLY GHOST! What do you need 100 windows for? Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 15:36:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 330FA37B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78219 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2002 23:36:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.42985.820103.310309@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:36:09 -0600 To: Joe Halpin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C8686E6.F76B8B56@attbi.com> References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> <200203051407.g25E7Cd67446@bugz.infotecs.ru> <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> <15493.49014.254461.125446@guru.mired.org> <3C8686E6.F76B8B56@attbi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Halpin types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > Joe Halpin types: > > > 1. C++ is a more difficult language than C because it does more stuff > > > than C. Ditto vs Java. > > No, it doesn't do more stuff than C, Neither does Java. See the > > Church-Turing thesis. Java and C++ are harder to learn because they > > have more *features* than C. > Sorry, I thought "had more features" was something like "did more". I don't see it that way. more in a bit. > For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but > Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. That depends on the statements in question, the assembler, and the coding style of the two programmers. > I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you trying to say that all > Turing complete languages are equally difficult? No, I'm saying that all turing complete languages can do the same set of things. If you want to divide languages up into levels in some manner, it makes more sense to talk about "features". For example, LISP-like languages have closures. OO languages can emulate them with callable objects. To do either in C, you pretty much have to write an interpreter for a language to do it - but you can still do it. They thing is, those two features don't make the languages more difficult; they make them less difficult, because you they allow you to do things easily that would be very hard in C. In at least one case - Scheme - features get added by removing restriction rather than adding language constructs. That means that there is less to learn about the language, even though it has more features. Experienced programmes have problems with it because they have to unlearn things they thought were invariants across languages. > > > For years I have been seeing this assertion on the net over and over. I > > > still don't see the expected result (ie, Java applications displacing > > > C/C++ applications). > > I see it happening, then the products vanish because they can't > > compete on a speed basis. VM's were a good idea when UCSD did it back > > in the mid 70s. I think the hardware is fast enough to support it now, > > but you've got to tie the parts together write. > So are you agreeing with me? Half-way. People believe it can be done, and they get the code written - only to discover that the results aren't fast enough. > My experience is that most performance problems come about from the way > something was coded, not the language it was coded in. Even in Java, you > can do JNI functions if performance is really an issue. That's close to my experience, with one exception. Once you get to high level languages (and I don't count C as such - it's a portable assembler) the quality of implementation of the libraries is critical. I know of cases where code written in Java outran the same algorithms in C, because the Java spent 90% of it's time in optimized string routines in the java implementation, whereas the C used hand-rolled C routines to that oinked every time they were invoked. > > Python is succeeding in some strange places, because it's trivial to > > take a collection of subroutines that deal with a data structure they > > pass back and forth as arguments, and turn it into a Python > > object. Which means you get to play with those complex, compiled > > environments in an interpreted environment that could be used as a > > shell, if you were really crazy. > Don't know anything about Python. How does this affect C vs C++? Or Java > vs C++? or perfomance, or ... ? Python provides a VM, ala Java, and as such if you're considering Java instead of C++, Python would be a valid contender. In general, it's not as fast because typing is done at runtime instead of compile time. Given my druthers - which doesn't happen often enough - I'd rather write in python, profile the code, then rewrite the classes were most of the time is spent in either C or Java, depending on the project constraints. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 16: 8:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C13437B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020307000809.KTDT2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:08:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3C86AF79.29D71F9C@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:08:25 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> <200203051407.g25E7Cd67446@bugz.infotecs.ru> <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> <15493.49014.254461.125446@guru.mired.org> <3C8686E6.F76B8B56@attbi.com> <15494.42985.820103.310309@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Joe Halpin types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Joe Halpin types: > > > > 1. C++ is a more difficult language than C because it does more stuff > > > > than C. Ditto vs Java. > > > No, it doesn't do more stuff than C, Neither does Java. See the > > > Church-Turing thesis. Java and C++ are harder to learn because they > > > have more *features* than C. > > Sorry, I thought "had more features" was something like "did more". > > I don't see it that way. more in a bit. > > > For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but > > Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. > > That depends on the statements in question, the assembler, and the > coding style of the two programmers. Ok, let me be tedious about it. In general, higher level languages do more per statement than lowever level languages. There may be some set of assembly language statements that are directly comparable with some set of some higher level language statements, but I don't believe that's true in general. > > I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you trying to say that all > > Turing complete languages are equally difficult? > > No, I'm saying that all turing complete languages can do the same set > of things. I agreed with that. > If you want to divide languages up into levels in some > manner, it makes more sense to talk about "features". For example, > LISP-like languages have closures. OO languages can emulate them with > callable objects. To do either in C, you pretty much have to write an > interpreter for a language to do it - but you can still do it. I think I agreed with that too. > They thing is, those two features don't make the languages more > difficult; they make them less difficult, because you they allow you > to do things easily that would be very hard in C. In at least one case > - Scheme - features get added by removing restriction rather than > adding language constructs. That means that there is less to learn > about the language, even though it has more features. Experienced > programmes have problems with it because they have to unlearn things > they thought were invariants across languages. I think that was my point about C++. Maybe we're just not communicating, it's happened before with me. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 16:17:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1303437B416 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g270CGg15952; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 01:12:17 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> References: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 01:08:24 +0100 To: Ceri , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Typing Injuries Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:24 PM +0000 2002/03/06, Ceri wrote: > I'm currently thinking about this keyboard : > http://www.dvortyboards.com/typematrix2020_info.html I've had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS) for a while now, although I am currently not suffering excessively. I've done a fair amount of research in this subject over the years, and I've found the ergonomic products available from Alimed to be a real blessing (they normally target the health-care provider market, but you can order most products as a private citizen). See for more info. One of the things I've discovered is that each person responds differently to a Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI). However, of the people that have RSIs related to typing and computer use, it is actually the mouse that is usually the worst offender (lots of horizontal arm and wrist movement combined with lots of vertical finger movement for clicking) and not the keyboard. For people who are actually having problems with the keyboard, using something like the Microsoft Natural keyboard (i.e., rotating the hands so that they are in-line with the wrists, as opposed to being bent outwards) tends to solve only about 5% of the problem. About 90% of the problem tends to be solved by rotating the wrists 45-90 degrees outward, so that the hands are held in a largely vertical orientation. Unfortunately, the Microsoft keyboard doesn't do this, and therefore really provides limited benefit for most people. If you want a keyboard that can support a more vertical orientation for the hands, you need something more like the one found at . Alternatively, you can use a keyboard that is designed to conform to the "bowl-like" shape of movement of the fingers and hands, such as found in the model at . There are also chording keyboards, in which you press one or more keys simultaneously to type letters, words, or phrases, and they have been shown to reduce unnecessary finger movement more than anything else short of getting rid of the keyboard altogether -- Alimed used to sell the "bat" keyboard chording device, but I can't seem to find it on their site. For the mouse, if you have to keep an actual mouse, then you need a proper wrist rest. Myself, I find that there are several different types of pads that you can buy that will attach to the mouse, and help ensure a proper ergonomic position for your hand. There are examples at and , among others. However, for me, I have found that I don't really have much in the way of CTS problems, ever since I switched to a laptop as my primary machine, and I pretty much exclusively use the built-in trackpad instead. Of course, when it comes to building a proper ergonomic office, there is far more to it than just the keyboard or mouse. There is also the monitor (and monitor position), the keyboard position, the chair and chair position, a foot rest, the right desk, etc.... Alimed can help you there, too -- just use their training system at , and that should help you figure out what kinds of devices you need and how they should be properly adjusted. Take care of yourself. Trust me, you do not want to get into a situation where you need devices such as the ones at . While I have not personally needed anything more severe than an elbow brace and a wrist brace, I have known people with Cerebral Palsy that have needed devices more like this, and their life with computers is a real hell -- better than it would be without computers, but still a hell all the same. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 16:33:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3187C37B404; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from earl-grey.cloud9.net (earl-grey.cloud9.net [168.100.1.1]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C27028D3E; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:33:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:33:31 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Leftwich X-X-Sender: To: Terry Lambert Cc: Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , , Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> Organization: Video2Video Services - http://Www.Video2Video.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Humour below: On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Return-Path: > Received: from mail2.registeredsite.com (mail2.registeredsite.com > [64.224.9.11]) > by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4CC28B06 > for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:13:09 -0500 (EST) > Received: from mail.video2video.com (mail.video2video.com [209.35.10.22]) > by mail2.registeredsite.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id > g25GIgV19461 > for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:18:42 -0500 > Received: from mx2.freebsd.org [209.35.10.22] by mail.video2video.com > (SMTPD32-6.06) id ACA5206F00B0; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:13:09 -0500 > Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.18]) > by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id C8EE055F74; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from owner-freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG) > Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538) > id DA51E37B41C; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:12:09 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP > id 287CF2E800C; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:12:05 -0800 (PST) > Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, > 5 Mar 2002 09:12:03 -0800 > Delivered-To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org > Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net > [207.217.120.22]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id ECA8237B402; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:11:52 -0800 (PST) > Received: from pool0452.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net > ([216.244.43.197] helo=mindspring.com) > by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) > id 16iITb-0002c6-00; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:11:47 -0800 > Message-ID: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> > Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:11:31 -0800 > From: Terry Lambert > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Miguel Mendez > Cc: Cliff Sarginson , > freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ > References: <000c01c1c322$df0f22a0$0101a8c0@noc2> > <20020304202541.U91555-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> > <20020305015104.GA40292@core.usrlib.org> > <20020305114625.GA11426@raggedclown.net> > <20020305144726.B89475@energyhq.homeip.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG > List-ID: > List-Archive: (Web Archive) > List-Help: (List Instructions) > List-Subscribe: > > List-Unsubscribe: > > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Precedence: bulk > > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > What always bugs me is people who should know better referring to "crackers", as "hackers" :) That's why I [originally months-ago] used "so-called." ;) > > Troll, but I'll bite :-) > > Cracker: salted cookie. > > Hacker: what you meant as hacker. > > Cracker is nothing, just a stupid term made up by journalists and clueless people like Suckomu Shimomura. ;-P Do your research. > Well, "troll" back at you... What is this about trolls biting Saltines now? > A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result of a curious nature. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The nature of the act of observation alters what it is you are observing, thus curiosity can crash a system and/or land your butt in jail near Big Joe's... > A cracker touches; cracking is a result of poor potty training. A cracker cracks a safe. A cracker is a "whitey," a "honky" such as myself. This term has never been offensive to me so get over it *grins*. A locksmith is a good cracker, good meaning benevolent. A hacker can be good or bad; a hacker who is "a HACK" is an over-paid under-skilled coder/programmer. A hacker who hacks code and is very skilled at it is someone who takes issue and bitches and moans when the media uses the word "hacker" in the "wrong way." They want the word back, but it is damaged goods. This seems to all come down to two ideas: [1] People want "intent" or "motive" to be part of the noun, just as we have two different words for those who steal your money: taxman and thief. [2] The Eskimo-like tribe Ki'illi-Mo%tocka Timbe of the Russian Siberian plains have 13 words for "dayummn it is phreakin' cold out today!" > A hacker learns in order to learn. A cracker learns in order to exploit. {Well said!! Although some crackers just forgot their password to a zip disk or zip file or M$FT Office file...} > Any true hacker has a Bushido-style sense of honor. A hacker is a Samurai. > Crackers generally have no honor. A cracker is Ronin. Ronin? > Ken Thompson is a hacker. Dennis Ritchie is a hacker. Kirk McKusick is a hacker. I'm glad you didn't mention Kevin Mitnick. So I will: Kevin Mitnick is a god. > The term "cracker" was not chosen lightly; it was chosen > by hackers, not by journalists. "Cracking" intentionally > implies breakage, damage, or exploitation of some kind. > > In fact, it is journalists who use the terms as if they > were the same thing, which pisses hackers off immensely, > and delights crackers no end, in the same way that a > person who habitually wore black in order to impersonate > a tortured young artist would be delighted to be mistaken > for one. > > The "freebsd-hackers" mailing list was named correctly, > even if some idiots don't get the point and post asking > for "W4R3Z" occasionally. We usually point them to the > top "W4R3Z" site on the net, one so secret it has no DNS > name: 127.0.0.1. > > And no, we aren't going to change the FreeBSD mascot to > something other than the BSD Daemon, thanks. > > And yes, we have all your personal information on file, > we just aren't going to do anything with it. 8-). > > -- Terry I'm done. Sorry about the chubby headers; one day I will shift back to saving originals and sent-mail and not just sent-mail ;-\ -- Peter Leftwich President & Founder Video2Video Services Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA +1-413-403-9555 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 16:57:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A1C537B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 79466 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2002 00:56:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.47832.176199.693783@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:56:56 -0600 To: Peter Leftwich Cc: Terry Lambert , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , , Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> References: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Leftwich types: > Humour below: [3K of unneeded headers deleted here. Please trim your followups of such.] > > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:46:25PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result of a curious nature. > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The nature of the act of observation > alters what it is you are observing, thus curiosity can crash a system > and/or land your butt in jail near Big Joe's... Right. Tresspassing is a crime, even if you don't touch anything. Just because you're tresspassing in cyberspace doen't make it any less of a crime. > A cracker cracks a safe. A cracker is a "whitey," a "honky" such as > myself. Or white trash. You know, I'd forgotten that usage of the term. Thanks for reminding me of it. > This term has never been offensive to me so get over it *grins*. A > locksmith is a good cracker, good meaning benevolent. A hacker can be good > or bad; a hacker who is "a HACK" is an over-paid under-skilled > coder/programmer. A hacker who hacks code and is very skilled at it is > someone who takes issue and bitches and moans when the media uses the word > "hacker" in the "wrong way." They want the word back, but it is damaged > goods. Unfortunately correct. That doesn't make the old meaning obsolete, though. So I'll keep right on using it with pride, and correcting people who think it only has one meaning, by giving them the second meaning of cracker. After all, if the media can hijack our word, we can hijack one. > This seems to all come down to two ideas: [1] People want "intent" or > "motive" to be part of the noun, just as we have two different words for > those who steal your money: taxman and thief. [2] The Eskimo-like tribe > Ki'illi-Mo%tocka Timbe of the Russian Siberian plains have 13 words for > "dayummn it is phreakin' cold out today!" I don't think hackers - in the original sense - wnat "intent" or "motive" to be part of the noun. They realize that some crackers are also very skilled hackers. What I - and I assume they - want is for the media to recognize that not all hackers are crackers, and to convey that message to the public in some way. > > Ken Thompson is a hacker. Dennis Ritchie is a hacker. Kirk McKusick is a hacker. > I'm glad you didn't mention Kevin Mitnick. So I will: Kevin Mitnick is a god. Loki? > > -- Terry > > I'm done. Sorry about the chubby headers; one day I will shift back to > saving originals and sent-mail and not just sent-mail ;-\ Ugh. I'd still like to see them trimmed. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 17:16:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.yumyumyum.org (dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.171.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD56D37B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13310 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2002 01:16:37 -0000 Received: from dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (66.92.171.91) by dsl092-171-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 7 Mar 2002 01:16:37 -0000 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:16:37 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Culver To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Nate Williams , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020306201359.F13246-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Languages with training wheels are so that people who would otherwise > have to learn how to ask "Would you like fries with that?" can > contribute productively to programming projects. Frankly, I'm still not > convinced that it's worth the tradeoff -- besides, sometimes I forget to > order fries. I actually *agree* with you for once. :-) I hate programming in things like Java and those other languages.... I don't know exactly what those other languages do since I havn't used them in a long time; but I really like things like pointers, and I like handling my own "garbage collection." Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 17:24:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1F137B404; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0533.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.23] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16imdW-0001uH-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:24:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:23:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Leftwich Cc: Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Leftwich wrote: > > A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result of a curious nature. > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The nature of the act of observation > alters what it is you are observing, thus curiosity can crash a system > and/or land your butt in jail near Big Joe's... Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle doesn't apply to macro events, only to quantum events. Specifically, it states that you can not simultaneously know the momentum of an electron, and it's position within h-bar/2. Unless you have a Schroedinger's Cat device hooked up to your computer, observations are not going to collapse any probability wwaves to a certainty, thus effecting the outcome of later observations. 8^p. > This seems to all come down to two ideas: [1] People want "intent" or > "motive" to be part of the noun, just as we have two different words for > those who steal your money: taxman and thief. [2] The Eskimo-like tribe > Ki'illi-Mo%tocka Timbe of the Russian Siberian plains have 13 words for > "dayummn it is phreakin' cold out today!" Just as William Gibson, the person who coined the word "cyberspace" indicated that "It's not ``cyberspace'' until you can torture someone to death in it, and they die in the real world". While we're at it, I want "Operating System" back, too. > > Any true hacker has a Bushido-style sense of honor. A hacker is a Samurai. > > Crackers generally have no honor. A cracker is Ronin. > > Ronin? A Samurai without a house. Someone who doesn't have a higher power to which they answer, and so has no reasonable constraints on their actions to prevent them from becoming sociopaths like Theodore "Ted" Kazinski or Jeffrey Dahlmer. > > Ken Thompson is a hacker. Dennis Ritchie is a hacker. Kirk > > McKusick is a hacker. > > I'm glad you didn't mention Kevin Mitnick. So I will: Kevin Mitnick is a god. So are Baal, Loki, and Hades... 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 17:54:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1311237B417 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g271sq413347; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:54:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:54:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: Ceri Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Typing Injuries In-Reply-To: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I use a Dvorak keyboard of the old IBM "machine gun" variety. I love it. I also use a trackball. No wrist movement at all. At work I am forced to use a qwerty keyboard and a mouse for CAD work. I like neither. At home I can work long hours with no problems. And in case you wonder, I have zero trouble switching between qwerty and dvorak when I am forced to do so. I also have a nice gel wrist rest. Mmmmm... feels kinda like a really firm... he hem, where was I? My advice is not terribly sophisticated from a medical standpoint. Both trackballs and dvorak are a love 'em or hate 'em proposition according to many opinions. Your mileage may vary. Later, Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 17:55:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from forum.lariat.org (forum.lariat.org [12.23.109.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C585637B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by forum.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03744 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:55:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:55:08 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200203070155.SAA03744@forum.lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mail blocked Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It appears that my last several postings to freebsd-chat made it to the people to whom I was replying but not to the list itself. When I attempt to send mail to any address ending in "@freebsd.org", the mail is blocked with a 500-series SMTP error code that looks like this: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to hub.freebsd.org.: >>> DATA <<< 552 Error: content rejected 554 ... Service unavailable Reporting-MTA: dns; lariat.org Received-From-MTA: DNS; lariat.org Arrival-Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:22:16 -0700 (MST) When I send from an address other than the one I normally use, as I'm doing now, the mail gets through, indicating that the block is by From: address. Mail to Jonathan Bresler, the FreeBSD postmaster, at the addresses jmb@freebsd.org and postmaster@freebsd.org has gone unanswered. (It, too, is rejected if I send from my usual address but not if I send from an alternate.) This blocking has occurred without warning or provocation. Why? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 18:15:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4AEA37B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 80384 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2002 02:15:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:15:12 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Peter Leftwich wrote: > > > A hacker looks, but does not touch; hacking is a result of a curious nature. > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The nature of the act of observation > > alters what it is you are observing, thus curiosity can crash a system > > and/or land your butt in jail near Big Joe's... > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle doesn't apply to macro > events, only to quantum events. Specifically, it states > that you can not simultaneously know the momentum of an > electron, and it's position within h-bar/2. While Heisenberg's uncertainty doesn't apply as described to macro events, the concept certainly works. If you instrument a kernel to find performance problems, you've just slowed the kernel down, and changed what routines get used when. And I'm sure we've all had the experience of adding a print to try and catch a bug, and the bug vanishes. Anyone who breaks into a computer system they aren't legally allowed to use is a cracker. The mere act of logging in takes cycles, which effects other processes on the system, especially if they are participating in a distributed computing project. Given that computers are so blasted cheap these days, and the availability of open source software, there's a lot of learning that can be done without stealing cycles from someone else. > Unless you have a Schroedinger's Cat device hooked up to > your computer, observations are not going to collapse any > probability wwaves to a certainty, thus effecting the > outcome of later observations. No, they'll just slow them donw, possibly screw up the accounting, and similar things that can make peoples lifes miserably. Read the book by the guy at LBL who helped track down a couple of crackers, even though they mostly used a "look but don't touch" methodology on his computers. His web site seems to be gone, or I'd send over there to order a Kleine bottle from him as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 18:24:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18C637B402 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g272OSD18905; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:24:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:24:07 +0100 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Ceri From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Typing Injuries Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:54 PM -0800 2002/03/06, Jason C. Wells wrote: > And in case you wonder, I have zero trouble switching between qwerty and > dvorak when I am forced to do so. Heh! You just try switching back and forth between American-style QWERTY, International English QWERTY (which puts at least one or two additional keys on the keyboard and moves a few of the non-alphanumeric keys around), Belgian/French/Dutch AZERTY (because they have so many diacritic characters, you have to hit at least three keys in order to get to any of the numbers or alphanumeric characters that English speakers are used to), and then try doing all that while mixing-and-matching any of the specified keyboard types with the corresponding software keyboard maps. It's enough to drive you insane.... > My advice is not terribly sophisticated from a medical standpoint. Both > trackballs and dvorak are a love 'em or hate 'em proposition according to > many opinions. Your mileage may vary. As with pretty much all of the ergonomic equipment on the market, which was part of my point about RSI being a very personal thing, with every individual reacting to different problems and different solutions in a unique way. Bottom line -- you basically have to try doing different things different ways until you find something that works for you. Well, that's assuming that you can find something that works for you at all. 1/2 ;-) -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 18:29:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [130.155.191.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ADB37B402; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from isc.org (localhost.dv.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g272Q1141571; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:26:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Message-Id: <200203070226.g272Q1141571@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:15:12 MDT." <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:26:01 +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As much as I'm enjoying the discussions about the meanings of hacker and cracker or the uncertaintly principle they really are not freebsd-security fodder. Please remove freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG from the follow ups. Mark -- Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 18:34:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFACC37B416 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16injG-0005dN-00 (Debian); Thu, 07 Mar 2002 02:34:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:34:02 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: "Brian T. Schellenberger" , Nate Williams , Kenneth Culver Cc: Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , "Eugene L. Vorokov" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ Message-ID: <20020307023402.A19669@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020306030145.01E6ABA03@i8k.babbleon.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian T.Schellenberger wrote: > > Objective C, for exmaple, is a much better C-based OO language > I wouldn't recommend C++ to anybody for anything myself. While I agree with you that C++ is evil incarnate, I don't have such a high opinion of Objective-C, which I think gains its reputation of being "proper OO for C" by being a straight copy of Smalltalk, without any regard for whether this makes sense in the context of C. In particular it completely fucks up the syntax of the language -- although it does manage to avoid braindamage like C++'s angle brackets for templates, but this is more by luck than by design since Smalltalk doesn't use angle brackets. I'm also rather leery of the semantics of the "id" type, especially when you look at how it interacts with Objective-C's facilities for sending generic messages to objects by slapping together a selector chosen at run-time with a load of arguments. Lots of opportunities for undefined behaviour there. In addition to this, Objective-C inherits some of Smalltalk's mistakes. The first problem is that subclasses inherit the instance variables of their superclass without namespace protection, which violates encapsulation. There is a work-around for this in Objective-C similar to C++'s private/public/protected labels, but the problem causes a secondary symptom which is more damaging. Objective-C is designed to allow classes to be added to a running program at run-time, but because of the tight coupling of a class to its superclass via the inheritance of instance variables, the whole of a program including its dynamic components must be compiled against the same sources -- the addition of an instance variable to any class breaks binary compatibility with all of its subclasses. The other problem is less severe: Smalltalk's and Objective-C's idea of the metaclass is only half-thought-through, leaving metaclasses as some kind of shadowy magic hiding behind their classes, when they would be much better of as more first-class entities. Similarly, although there is some provision for tweaking the object model, it is at the level of fiddling the implementation rather than being a proper API. Common Lisp's Object System with its metaobject protocol is much better in both of these respects. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch BISCAY: NORTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5 BECOMING VARIABLE 3. OCCASIONAL DRIZZLE. MODERATE, OCCASIONALLY POOR IN NORTH. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19: 1:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B3837B402; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.32] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16io9J-0006G4-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:00:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > While Heisenberg's uncertainty doesn't apply as described to macro > events, the concept certainly works. If you instrument a kernel to > find performance problems, you've just slowed the kernel down, and > changed what routines get used when. And I'm sure we've all had the > experience of adding a print to try and catch a bug, and the bug > vanishes. This only happens if you don't know what you are doing. It's very easy to do instrumentation which subtracts itself out of the overall count, if the instrumentation is for profiling. For debugging of timing sensitive problems, you have to use non-invasive techniques in order to avoid changing the timing. It isn't rocket science. As to the idea that the observer always changes the thing being observed, that's silly. It's only true if the observer isn't copetent, until you get down to the quantum level. > Given that computers are so blasted cheap these days, and the > availability of open source software, there's a lot of learning that > can be done without stealing cycles from someone else. Actually, the use of individual equipment is one of the things that's wrong with todays CS classes. If you do your work on your own machine at home, rather than using shared resources, you never learn to "play nice" with other software on the system that you didn't plan on. It's one of the reasons Windows Systems are so fragile these days, when programs from different vendors are loaded on them: the programmers responsible never had to learn to "play nice with the other kids". > No, they'll just slow them donw, possibly screw up the accounting, and > similar things that can make peoples lifes miserably. Read the book by > the guy at LBL who helped track down a couple of crackers, even though > they mostly used a "look but don't touch" methodology on his > computers. His web site seems to be gone, or I'd send over there to > order a Kleine bottle from him as well. You mean Clifford Stoll's "The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage", in which he used non-invasive observational teqniques that did not impact what he was observing? 8-). I think his neo-luddite books "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts on The Information Highway" and "High Tech Heretic: Why Computers Don't Belong in the Classroom and Other Reflections by a Computer Contrarion" are a lot more telling, don't you? "Ultimately, though, Stoll contradicts himself too often: in one sentence, he fears the demise of libraries; in the next, he states why book-based libraries won't disappear. What's more, he undermines his argument's seriousness with comic footnotes and deliberately improper grammar. Still, his book signals the first wave in the backlash against the race to the future that computer technology now represents." -- Benjamin Segedin PS: The people he was writing about in "The Cuckoo's Egg" we definitely not just observers... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19: 2: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A0B37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:01:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16io9u-0006R8-00 (Debian); Thu, 07 Mar 2002 03:01:34 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:01:34 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Raymond Wiker Cc: Nate Williams , Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert , "Steve B." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C vs C++ Message-ID: <20020307030134.B19669@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15494.22039.581536.624619@raw.grenland.fast.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Raymond Wiker wrote: > > > Exceptions are great, but there are too many gotchas because the > > behavior is not standardizes well enough to depend on them. (And, if > > you're not careful, you can cause yourself *all* sorts of problems using > > them.) > > I'd *really* like an example of this. The only serious >argument I've heard about exceptions in the last couple of years is >that they are inefficient, and even that is not a valid argument for >avoiding them completely. Error handling in general is difficult when you have to clean up partially-completed operations, and although C++ helps a lot by giving you automatic destructors, there are still times when the whole idea gives me the heebie-jeebies. What happens when an automatic destructor throws an exception when the stack is being unwound in the course of handling an exception? Tony. -- f.a.n.finch VIKING NORTH UTSIRE SOUTH UTSIRE: NORTHWESTERLY 5 OR 6, OCCASIONALLY 7, DECREASING 4 FOR A TIME. WINTRY SHOWERS. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19:42:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (orthanc.ab.ca [216.123.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C318437B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (localhost.orthanc.ab.ca [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g273g2j00694; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:42:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca) Message-Id: <200203070342.g273g2j00694@orthanc.ab.ca> From: Lyndon Nerenberg Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cliff is a Luddite In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:00:38 PST." <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: mh-e 5.0.92; MH 6.8.4; Emacs 21.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:42:02 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Followups to chat (where I'm not subscribed :-) ] >>>>> "Terry" == Terry Lambert writes: Terry> As to the idea that the observer always changes the thing Terry> being observed, that's silly. It's only true if the observer Terry> isn't copetent, until you get down to the quantum level. And in many cases, the "quantum" is defined by "the server just crashed." Or more likely: who just crashed it. (See below.) Terry> Actually, the use of individual equipment is one of the Terry> things that's wrong with todays CS classes. If you do your Terry> work on your own machine at home, rather than using shared Terry> resources, you never learn to "play nice" with other software Terry> on the system that you didn't plan on. It's one of the Terry> reasons Windows Systems are so fragile these days, when Terry> programs from different vendors are loaded on them: the Terry> programmers responsible never had to learn to "play nice with Terry> the other kids". A.k.a "those who ignore history are bound to repeat it." The amount of time spent re-educating people who have been "Linux-ated" by university computing science departments is just scary. Why oh why am I *still* spending time explaining to 4th-year grads why it is not necessary to '-f outfile' when the shell does that for you? First, let's kill all the CS profs. (Seriously. What has come over these people? And what would happen to them if we wound the clock back eight years or so to the point where Windows was not a realistic option, and Java didn't exist? Was there no Computing Science back then?) Terry> I think his neo-luddite books "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Terry> Thoughts on The Information Highway" and "High Tech Heretic: Terry> Why Computers Don't Belong in the Classroom and Other Terry> Reflections by a Computer Contrarion" are a lot more telling, Terry> don't you? Cliff is a luddite. Although I've been an amateur radio operator for 24 years I don't agree with his "I know morse code and therefore so should you" attitude. Besides, anyone who microwaves his shoes should have his root password, let alone his transmitting license, umm, nuked. --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19:47:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACFB37B400 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlep6.itg.ti.com ([157.170.188.9]) by jester.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g273lJ121981; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:47:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from dlep6.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep6.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29034; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:47:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep6.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29024; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:47:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from paspcsham (dhcp86222 [157.87.86.222]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14254; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:17:12 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <00d901c1c58b$77e13b20$de56579d@india.ti.com> From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "Joe Halpin" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" References: <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <15493.24457.986109.726909@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8573B2.35144B17@attbi.com> <200203051407.g25E7Cd67446@bugz.infotecs.ru> <001201c1c464$06416fd0$f642d9cf@DROID> <15493.49014.254461.125446@guru.mired.org> <3C8686E6.F76B8B56@attbi.com> Subject: Re: C vs C++ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:22:10 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Halpin wrote: > > For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but > Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. > Clearly, you do not play video games :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19:53:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9576F37B419 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 81470 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2002 03:53:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:53:11 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > While Heisenberg's uncertainty doesn't apply as described to macro > > events, the concept certainly works. If you instrument a kernel to > > find performance problems, you've just slowed the kernel down, and > > changed what routines get used when. And I'm sure we've all had the > > experience of adding a print to try and catch a bug, and the bug > > vanishes. > This only happens if you don't know what you are doing. > It's very easy to do instrumentation which subtracts > itself out of the overall count, if the instrumentation > is for profiling. For debugging of timing sensitive > problems, you have to use non-invasive techniques in > order to avoid changing the timing. It isn't rocket > science. Of course it's not rocket science. It's computer science. You haven't got it right yet. To make sure you're not changing the paging behavior of the system, you can't use any memory on the system, meaning you have to be watching it on a hardware monitor. And even that isn't good enough in all cases. I had bugs in horizontal microcode that the extra timing to grab the trace information hid, because the time used to sample the lines allowed the bus to settle before the next subword executed, so it read the correct values when run that way, but read random values run at full speed. > As to the idea that the observer always changes the thing > being observed, that's silly. It's only true if the > observer isn't copetent, until you get down to the quantum > level. I'll grant you that a sufficiently careful observer can probably get away without changing what's being observed above the quantum level. I wouldn't guarantee it until someone conclusively disproves the Bell hypothesis. If you are a careful enough hacker that you don't even leave footprints on the instruction trace of the machine you're breaking into, I'll grant you're probably not a cracker. I also want to know how you did it. > > Given that computers are so blasted cheap these days, and the > > availability of open source software, there's a lot of learning that > > can be done without stealing cycles from someone else. > Actually, the use of individual equipment is one of the > things that's wrong with todays CS classes. If you do > your work on your own machine at home, rather than using > shared resources, you never learn to "play nice" with > other software on the system that you didn't plan on. > It's one of the reasons Windows Systems are so fragile > these days, when programs from different vendors are loaded > on them: the programmers responsible never had to learn > to "play nice with the other kids". Can't argue with that. I'd place it right behind sharing code being considered cheating in school as a problem. But we're talking about people breaking into computers to ostensibly "learn things". Given that they can buy a used computer for a lot less than a used car, if not get them for free when their parents upgrade, why are they breaking into other people systems? > > No, they'll just slow them donw, possibly screw up the accounting, and > > similar things that can make peoples lifes miserably. Read the book by > > the guy at LBL who helped track down a couple of crackers, even though > > they mostly used a "look but don't touch" methodology on his > > computers. His web site seems to be gone, or I'd send over there to > > order a Kleine bottle from him as well. > You mean Clifford Stoll's "The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy > Through the Maze of Computer Espionage", in which he used > non-invasive observational teqniques that did not impact > what he was observing? 8-). Yes, that's the book. And what he did wasn't non-invasive, it was just below the level of the people breaking into his system noticed. > PS: The people he was writing about in "The Cuckoo's Egg" > we definitely not just observers... True. They were hopscotching to another system. But the clue that started him on the case was simply cycles that hadn't been accounted for. So even if they had done nothing more than look around for $.75 cents worth of cpu time (about 10 minutes back then), he would have noticed them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 20:10:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4ED37B41B for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16ipEI-0007pn-00 (Debian); Thu, 07 Mar 2002 04:10:10 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 04:10:10 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Gautham Ganapathy Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: C vs C++ Message-ID: <20020307041010.A29816@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00d901c1c58b$77e13b20$de56579d@india.ti.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gautham Ganapathy" wrote: > Joe Halpin wrote: > > > > For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but > > Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. > > Clearly, you do not play video games :-) Clearly you do not realise that games haven't been written in assembler for years. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch TRAFALGAR: NORTHERLY 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6. FAIR. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 20:49:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E6CA37B419 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 82352 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2002 04:49:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15494.61799.281075.606906@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:49:43 -0600 To: Tony Finch Cc: Gautham Ganapathy , "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <20020307041010.A29816@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <00d901c1c58b$77e13b20$de56579d@india.ti.com> <20020307041010.A29816@chiark.greenend.org.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch types: > "Gautham Ganapathy" wrote: > > Joe Halpin wrote: > > > > > > For example, assembly language doesn't do anything Python can't, but > > > Python does more (at least, per statement) than assembly language. > > > > Clearly, you do not play video games :-) > > Clearly you do not realise that games haven't been written in assembler > for years. Yeah. Games like SolarWolf in the ports tree come to mind. It's 100% python. My favorite window manager is also written in Python, including the Xlib implementation. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 22:37:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B593837B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16irX3-0007oa-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:37:41 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id D73D913040 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:37:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 2431122597; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:37:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:37:37 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020307063737.GE2142@raggedclown.net> References: <3C84FC43.607F91E6@mindspring.com> <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 07:33:31PM -0500, Peter Leftwich wrote: > Humour below: > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The nature of the act of observation > alters what it is you are observing... An all too common man-in-the-street misunderstanding of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, had to edify my son on this very subject just the other day. > I'm done. Sorry about the chubby headers; one day I will shift back to > saving originals and sent-mail and not just sent-mail ;-\ I have just asked you again in questions, and I ask you here. Don't send all the frigging headers with your message replies. t makes you look a complete twat. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 22:45:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26D337B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04930 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:45:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 23:45:23 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Mail blocked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just following up on this for the list.... It appears that my mail was being blocked because the FreeBSD server began to block any mail with "localhost" in the Message-id: header. Unfortunately, since I'm tunneling into my mail host using SSH port forwarding, that's where it sees the mail coming from. Am trying to work out a hack that allows me to remain mobile, since using anything other than "localhost" will break the tunneling.... Others who tunnel through SSH may have this problem as well. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 22:46:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA6937B404 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16irfL-000OHe-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:46:15 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id BCC7C13040; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:46:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 48DD622597; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:46:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:46:10 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: Ceri Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Typing Injuries Message-ID: <20020307064610.GF2142@raggedclown.net> References: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:24:16PM +0000, Ceri wrote: > > I've recently started suffering from symptoms of repetitive strain injury > (tingling in my hands, pain in my elbow, aching tendons), and although my > doctor assures me it's not arthritis, he seemed a bit lost as regards any > further suggestions. > > So today I've been reading www.tifaq.org (Typing Injury FAQ) and while I > can do things like improving my posture, I'm looking at different input > devices as a major part of nipping this in the bud. > > I need something to type with, and something to point with, and thought > that people on this list might possibly have some suggestions (you'll have > to cc me please, as I'm not subscribed). > > I've got a microsoft intellimouse (the older ones, 1.1 I think) > and a natural keyboard at home, and one of those horrible compaq deskpro > keyboard + mouse at work. I'm looking to change both of these, but want > to have the same keyboard/pointer pair at both, so cost is going to be > a factor in my decision, unfortunately. > > I'm currently thinking about this keyboard : > http://www.dvortyboards.com/typematrix2020_info.html > > It's got a decent layout which should make life easier, and switches > between Dvorak and Qwerty layouts at the flick of a switch (Dvorak is > apparently a good way of reducing keyboard related stress), which would > be very good for me. > > I'm lost for ideas on mice. > > Also, if any posters in the UK know of any institution I can contact for > further advice then that would be great. > > Thanks, > > Ceri One thing is Ceri, I don't know if you are self-employed or have an employer. In the latter case the employer is obliged by EU law I believe to run checks on your working environment and to provide suitable furniture, lighting and whatever else I think in order to avoid any injury related to computer usage. I think you may want to look into that. I know when I worked for a company in the UK last we all had to be assessed for environmental comfort. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 22:48:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56E537B405 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16irhj-0008HS-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:48:44 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 93C6213040 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:48:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id EBB1122597; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:48:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:48:38 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020307064838.GG2142@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 05:58:28PM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-03-06 23:31, Stephen McKay wrote: > > > I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, > > and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, > > even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. > > Actually, so-called modern humans are also poor at handling 100 windows! > HOLLY GHOST! What do you need 100 windows for? > To look out of ? There is an amazing house in a North London street completely made of glass. Got nothing to do with this, but I just pass it on for curiosity value. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 22:54: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 867AC37B41A for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 67750 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Mar 2002 06:53:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:53:49 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail blocked Message-ID: <20020307065349.GA66893@dub.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="17pEHd4RhPHOinZp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD toxic.magnesium.net 4.5-STABLE FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe you should learn not to be so quick to judge. I'm sure you can understand that reasons for blocking mail that says it's coming from localhost.=20 No matter what the freebsd.org admins might think of you, we're not going to do malicious things just to piss you off. Try being a bit less reactionary :) -Bill On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:45:23PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Just following up on this for the list.... It appears that my mail > was being blocked because the FreeBSD server began to block any > mail with "localhost" in the Message-id: header. Unfortunately, > since I'm tunneling into my mail host using SSH port forwarding, > that's where it sees the mail coming from. >=20 > Am trying to work out a hack that allows me to remain mobile, > since using anything other than "localhost" will break the > tunneling.... Others who tunnel through SSH may have this problem > as well. >=20 > --Brett Glass=20 >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 -=3D| Bill Swingle - -=3D| Every message PGP signed -=3D| Fingerprint: C1E3 49D1 EFC9 3EE0 EA6E 6414 5200 1C95 8E09 0223 -=3D| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso= =20 --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD4DBQE8hw59UgAclY4JAiMRAsYnAJ9XtE8cFguBOULFIOwnUzKpoPeYoQCYic56 /Yiva1Lk1io/JZmtsUYscw== =rOCp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 0:19:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765D337B416 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g278Khw63265 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:20:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:20:43 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD invades Windows Message-ID: <20020307020947.P62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all, I'm doing a presentation on a system I have under development with FreeBSD at the heart of it all. The projection facilities, are, unfortunately, limited to the Windows computer at the site. Since I don't have much choice, I figured I may as well have a little fun. :-) Does anybody know where I might be able to find any FreeBSD- related mouse cursors that can be made to work on a Windows system without too much hassle? Something perhaps like Beastie, with the tip of his trident as the hotspot. Totally useless for everyday use, but maybe a good ice-breaker presenting to a bunch of people that would actually get the meaning. :-) - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 2:55:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gamma.star.spb.ru (gamma.star.spb.ru [217.195.79.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D018637B41E for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.star.spb.ru (green.star.spb.ru [217.195.79.10]) by gamma.star.spb.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA95818; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:54:16 +0300 (MSK) Received: from 217.195.79.241 ([217.195.79.241]) by green.star.spb.ru with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 10SY0K7S; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:53:23 +0300 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:54:07 +0300 From: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Reply-To: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , Subject: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-reply-To: <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Mike, Thursday, March 07, 2002, 6:53:11 AM, you wrote: >> > Given that computers are so blasted cheap these days, and the >> > availability of open source software, there's a lot of learning that >> > can be done without stealing cycles from someone else. There are still some piece of science, that man just cannot get without stealing cycles from someone els, see below. MM> But we're talking about people breaking into computers to ostensibly MM> "learn things". Given that they can buy a used computer for a lot less MM> than a used car, if not get them for free when their parents upgrade, MM> why are they breaking into other people systems? May be just to learn, how to break into other people systems? ;------------------------------------------- ; NKritsky ; mailto:nkritsky@internethelp.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 3:31:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay3-gui.server.ntli.net (relay3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.4.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC36F37B419 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc4-card4-0-cust162.cdf.cable.ntl.com ([80.4.14.162] helo=rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 16iw7Z-00027V-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:31:42 +0000 Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16iw7B-000208-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:31:17 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:31:17 +0000 From: Ceri To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Typing Injuries Message-ID: <20020307113117.GA7534@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> <20020307064610.GF2142@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020307064610.GF2142@raggedclown.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:46:10AM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:24:16PM +0000, Ceri wrote: > > > > I've recently started suffering from symptoms of repetitive strain injury > > (tingling in my hands, pain in my elbow, aching tendons), and although my > > doctor assures me it's not arthritis, he seemed a bit lost as regards any > > further suggestions. > > One thing is Ceri, I don't know if you are self-employed or have an > employer. In the latter case the employer is obliged by EU law I believe > to run checks on your working environment and to provide suitable > furniture, lighting and whatever else I think in order to avoid any > injury related to computer usage. I think you may want to look into > that. I know when I worked for a company in the UK last we all had to be > assessed for environmental comfort. Thanks Cliff - I have an employer, and have a meeting later today to talk about this with them. Ceri -- keep a mild groove on To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 3:32:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay3-gui.server.ntli.net (relay3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.4.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7772C37B405 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc4-card4-0-cust162.cdf.cable.ntl.com ([80.4.14.162] helo=rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 16iw8X-0002Ac-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:32:41 +0000 Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.private.submonkey.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16iw8K-00020M-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:32:28 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:32:28 +0000 From: Ceri To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Typing Injuries Message-ID: <20020307113228.GB7534@submonkey.net> References: <20020306222416.GA484@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 01:08:24AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:24 PM +0000 2002/03/06, Ceri wrote: > > > I'm currently thinking about this keyboard : > > http://www.dvortyboards.com/typematrix2020_info.html > > I've had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS) for a while now, although I > am currently not suffering excessively. I've done a fair amount of > research in this subject over the years, and I've found the ergonomic > products available from Alimed to be a real blessing (they normally > target the health-care provider market, but you can order most > products as a private citizen). See for > more info. Thanks very much for your very comprehensive answer, Brad. I'll check these suggestions out. Thanks to everyone else who answered as well. Ceri -- keep a mild groove on To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 4:49:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E90037B417 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 04:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 23F9CFC4; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 06:49:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 06:49:27 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Stephen McKay Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020307064927.I3880@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +1000 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +1000 I heard the voice of Stephen McKay, and lo! it spake thus: > > I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, > and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, > even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. Frankly, I despise all those "modern window managers" :P ctwm works very well for me. I've got a seperate icon manager on the right side of my screen for Netscape windows. I currently have 15 open on this desktop, and by my hand-estimate, that's taking up just a touch over 1/3 the height available to it. So, call it 35-40 per desktop with room to spare. I have 6 virtual desktops split up by function (one is for working on programs, one is for managing systems, etc), which gives a reasonably good distribution. So, if we take 20 windows per desktop, that gives 120 total (presuming, of course, that NS would live long enough to open that many ;), while taking up maybe half of the available space to manage 'em. Other stuff like xterms has the other icon manager on the left side of the screen. > Maybe more of my peculiar habits are relevant: I run a virtual desktop > and Opera gets 100% of one of them (ie it runs in full screen mode). > Within Opera, I only look at one page at a time, so it gets all the > screen minus the tab list. At 1600x1200 with 100 windows open you > still have lots of visible window left. Interleaving my browser > windows with other windows is not of interest to me. When I'm working on a web front-end in 2 xterms (with a third for referencing other bits), and have 1 NS windows open on the PostgreSQL docs, 1 on the PHP docs, 1 looking up bits in the HTML spec I manage to forget, and 1 testing the output, interleaving is kinda a necessity. I don't have ANYTHING full-screen. I run 1280x1024, my Netscape windows are set to 840x695 (there's no magic reason for those dimensions, it's just what I've gotten used to). I very much treasure being able to see more than one thing at a time. I s'pose in the end, as always, it comes down to individual preference. At least we use an environment that gives us choices. > >But in a X11 environment, when you can pick and choose among a number of > >WM's with great configurability and scalability... what's the point? > > I await your recommendation for a window manager that will do all the > things I like as well as these new fangled things you like. Er, what new-fangled things? Using a 5-year-old piece of festering crap web browser? ;) > I'd rather not *pay* for a dual 1400. Regardless, it is an interesting > idea to hard limit all processes to at most 1/2 the cpu. I don't know of > anyone who has done this already. And I don't know how much of the feel > of a real dual cpu box this would have. Maybe one of us will have to > code up a hack and find out. It does make you curious. On the one hand, the context switch overhead would hurt. On the other, though, you don't have to worry about inter-processor synchronization or bus arbitration. The context-switch is part of the problem; I keep NS nice'd down, but even then you'll still have a problem, because you have to wait for it to finish its quantum before the scheduler is ready to schedule another process, even once you hard-limit it to 50% of the cycles. (the "even nice'd processes get CPU" problem is obliterated when you set the limit). -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 8:52:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B942E37B416 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10327; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:51:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:51:32 -0700 To: Bill Swingle From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Mail blocked Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020307065349.GA66893@dub.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:53 PM 3/6/2002, Bill Swingle wrote: >Maybe you should learn not to be so quick to judge. I wasn't "judging;" I did an empirical test whose results suggested that my address was being blocked. I wondered if we'd somehow been added to a DNS blacklist or if something else had gone badly wrong. And, yes, I did consider malicious activity as a possibility. Wouldn't you? >I'm sure you can >understand that reasons for blocking mail that says it's coming from >localhost. The mail didn't "say it was coming from localhost." It merely had a message ID that happened to contain the string "localhost." The headers and envelope both contained my legitimate and verifiable return address. Matching strings in a message ID (which is allowed to contain arbitrary character strings!) may bounce quite a bit of perfectly legitimate mail. This turned out to be what happened. >No matter what the freebsd.org admins might think of you, we're not >going to do malicious things just to piss you off. I'm glad of that. However, there have been a few people who HAVE done such things. (As you may recall, a core team member once configured his mail server in such a way as to send a rude autoreply to every message I posted to any FreeBSD mailing list.) I'm glad that this was not what was happening in this case. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 9:45:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400F137B421 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0314.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.59] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16j1xS-0006vq-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:45:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C87A732.D358D9CC@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:45:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Thompson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD invades Windows References: <20020307020947.P62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan Thompson wrote: > I'm doing a presentation on a system I have under development with > FreeBSD at the heart of it all. The projection facilities, are, > unfortunately, limited to the Windows computer at the site. Do you have FreeBSD systems avalable at all? You can VNC onto a FreeBSD system, or use the Free Windows X server to display FreeBSD on the Windows box... If you look for Windows Desktop Themes, you'll find a number of FreeBSD themes; they include cursors, I believe. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 10: 9:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86FD37B400 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29917 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:12:25 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307130556.01934a98@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:08:45 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <20020307041010.A29816@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <00d901c1c58b$77e13b20$de56579d@india.ti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:10 PM 3/6/2002, Tony Finch wrote: >Clearly you do not realise that games haven't been written in assembler >for years. Actually most top-tier video games available at your retailer for any platform contain a significant amount of assembly language code. Of course, even if those games contained no assembly language at all, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that any of them use python/scheme/etc. -- Chip Morton -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 10:23:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E400A37B44B for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g27IMkl28367; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:22:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from scanner@sasami.jurai.net) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:22:46 -0500 (EST) From: scanner@sasami.jurai.net To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: C vs C++ In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307130556.01934a98@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20020307132201.D28320-100000@sasami.jurai.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > Of course, even if those games contained no assembly language at all, I'd > be hard-pressed to believe that any of them use python/scheme/etc. Actually there are some games that do use python. For the installer and various other parts. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:23:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5DE37B402 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E53EBD8E for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08695 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:29 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g27KQd346605; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail blocked References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Mar 2002 12:26:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> Message-ID: <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 11:53 PM 3/6/2002, Bill Swingle wrote: ... > > The mail didn't "say it was coming from localhost." It merely had a > message ID that happened to contain the string "localhost." The headers > and envelope both contained my legitimate and verifiable return address. > Matching strings in a message ID (which is allowed to contain arbitrary > character strings!) may bounce quite a bit of perfectly legitimate mail. > This turned out to be what happened. Are you sure? I've posted to other freebsd MLs with that kind of ID. If you're reading this, I think you'll find "localhost." in the ID. My computers are all named localhost and I don't see that changing. I wouldn't care to waste time figuring out how to munge the message ID. I wasted several days recovering from whatever they did last summer that stopped my posts cold, mid-thread. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 13:48:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C8D537B48F for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 93618 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2002 21:48:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:48:25 -0600 To: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" Cc: Terry Lambert , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nickolay A.Kritsky types: > MM> But we're talking about people breaking into computers to ostensibly > MM> "learn things". Given that they can buy a used computer for a lot less > MM> than a used car, if not get them for free when their parents upgrade, > MM> why are they breaking into other people systems? > > May be just to learn, how to break into other people systems? You can learn that using your own system. Wanna learn how to break into a generic install of FreeBSD? Install one, and go to work on it. It's no less interesting/fun/educational than trying to break into someone elses, and a lot less likely to get you into trouble. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 14:24:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (mail.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AAE037B443 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: FROM mail.quidel.com BY mail.quidel.com ; Thu Mar 07 14:23:27 2002 0000 Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:26:35 -0800 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD4701AAAF53@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: test, ignore please Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:26:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 20:27:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B41A37B404 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g284SUE70695; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:28:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:28:30 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD invades Windows In-Reply-To: <3C87A732.D358D9CC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020307222603.G62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote to Ryan Thompson: > Ryan Thompson wrote: > > I'm doing a presentation on a system I have under development with > > FreeBSD at the heart of it all. The projection facilities, are, > > unfortunately, limited to the Windows computer at the site. > > Do you have FreeBSD systems avalable at all? > > You can VNC onto a FreeBSD system, or use the Free Windows X server > to display FreeBSD on the Windows box... Hmm... Yeah. hadn't thought of that. AFAIK, there is NO general Internet connectivity available from the location, which is kind of sad. :-) > If you look for Windows Desktop Themes, you'll find a > number of FreeBSD themes; they include cursors, I believe. Aha.. Will check that out. Thanks. - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 20:46:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from go4.ext.ti.com (dlezb.ext.ti.com [192.91.75.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFF637B405 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlep6.itg.ti.com ([157.170.188.9]) by go4.ext.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g284kkc27247 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:46:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from dlep6.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep6.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15946 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:46:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep6.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15921 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:46:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from paspcsham (dhcp86222 [157.87.86.222]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27394 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:16:40 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <003301c1c65c$f0232310$de56579d@india.ti.com> From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: www.freebsd.org.in Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:21:37 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Does anyone know who was running the freebsd india website (www.freebsd.org.in) ? It doesn't seem to have been up for quite sometime ? Regards Gautham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 21:20:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C01C37B404 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19267; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:20:01 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:19:55 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Mail blocked In-Reply-To: <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:26 PM 3/7/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Are you sure? I've posted to other freebsd MLs with that kind of ID. >If you're reading this, I think you'll find "localhost." in the ID. You escaped the filter by sheer luck. I just found out that the rule they're using is /^Message-Id:.*@localhost>$/ REJECT Your IDs say "localhost.localdomain", not just "localhost", so they slip through. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 22: 0: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3B637B400 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19814; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:59:42 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307225738.00cb54d0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:59:39 -0700 To: Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD invades Windows In-Reply-To: <20020307020947.P62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:20 AM 3/7/2002, Ryan Thompson wrote: >I'm doing a presentation on a system I have under development with >FreeBSD at the heart of it all. The projection facilities, are, >unfortunately, limited to the Windows computer at the site. Do your slides in HTML. They'll then display on anything, and will even be accessible to the blind via a text-based browser. >Since I don't have much choice, I figured I may as well have a little >fun. :-) Does anybody know where I might be able to find any FreeBSD- >related mouse cursors that can be made to work on a Windows system >without too much hassle? Something perhaps like Beastie, with the tip >of his trident as the hotspot. Totally useless for everyday use, but >maybe a good ice-breaker presenting to a bunch of people that would >actually get the meaning. :-) Do you have a Windows cursor editor? IIRC, Windows cursors are just bitmaps with a special color table entry for the hot spot. But they have to be compiled as Windows resources. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 22:32:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2BD37B447 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g286WxU71441; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:32:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:32:59 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD invades Windows In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307225738.00cb54d0@nospam.lariat.org> Message-ID: <20020308002600.F62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote to Ryan Thompson and freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG: > At 01:20 AM 3/7/2002, Ryan Thompson wrote: > > >I'm doing a presentation on a system I have under development with > >FreeBSD at the heart of it all. The projection facilities, are, > >unfortunately, limited to the Windows computer at the site. > > Do your slides in HTML. They'll then display on anything, and will > even be accessible to the blind via a text-based browser. :-) PS/PDF was the better solution in this case. > >[...] > >to a bunch of people that would actually get the meaning. :-) > > Do you have a Windows cursor editor? Sure, but I also have a deadline. :-) I sort of hoped somebody had beat me to it (and, they have :-) > IIRC, Windows cursors are just bitmaps with a special color table > entry for the hot spot. But they have to be compiled as Windows > resources. Yup. That's basically my understanding. Thanks, - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 1:43:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9F3ED37B404 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 01:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gerardoparedes98 (AUTH plain) at unknown (HELO yahoo.com) (gerardoparedes98@63.100.89.35) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 2002 09:43:55 -0000 Message-ID: <3C888B07.6090201@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 03:57:27 -0600 From: Gerardo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020307 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sorry guys, just to test the if reverse dns lookup let me send mail now _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 4:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE2037B41A for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 04:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp211.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.211]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA07095; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 23:55:20 +1100 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp211.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.211] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g28D2XC29103; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 23:02:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200203081302.g28D2XC29103@dungeon.home> To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> In-Reply-To: <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> from Giorgos Keramidas at "Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:58:28 +0200" Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:02:33 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 6th March 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >On 2002-03-06 23:31, Stephen McKay wrote: > >> I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, >> and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, >> even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. > >Actually, so-called modern humans are also poor at handling 100 windows! >HOLLY GHOST! What do you need 100 windows for? Well, it sort of creeps up on you. Every day I seem to open and half read a couple more web pages than I close. After a month or so, that starts to add up, and I often hit 100 open windows in Opera. I never got that far with Netscape because it got too cluttered much faster, and let's face it, Netscape never stayed up long enough to open that many windows. Opera also has that really handy "Resume from when you left off" feature for those occasions when it does crash. That makes preserving your 100 half-read pages a breeze! :-) Oh, and if the tab list for the 100 open windows is getting in your way, you can minimise that too. Opera is nearly good enough to make me stop cursing the way everything now requires a browser to use it! Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 5:45:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AF537B400 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 05:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jKgQ-000Ksm-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:45:19 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 7D4D213040 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:45:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 24F2922597; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:45:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:45:14 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020308134513.GA49477@raggedclown.net> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:31:09AM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Mar 7, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > You can learn that using your own system. Wanna learn how to break > > into a generic install of FreeBSD? Install one, and go to work on > > it. It's no less interesting/fun/educational than trying to break into > > someone elses, and a lot less likely to get you into trouble. > > And what if you want to learn how to break into Solaris? There will always > be an excuse given for hacking. I know one guy who was well known in the > security field for a number of years, who reckoned that many years ago the > 'we want to play with Unix' camp split into two - those who had the balls to > to go out and break into expensive Unix machines dotted around the world, > and those who were so scared they went off and wrote their own (e.g. Linux). > Of course, I don't completely agree with him, but he has a point in that you > either want to run your Unix on your desktop but be limited to what you have > access to (FreeBSD != Solaris != HP-UX != AIX) or you can go out and break > into other people's machines. > > Just because hacking is illegal doesn't mean you or I have the right to > judge those individuals who cause no harm and who only seek true > enlightenment through a thourough understanding of buffer overflows. :-) > Actually they could then pass that knowledge onto the "C" programmers who *still* do not know and/or remember to avoid coding in such a way as to allow that :) It is avoidable. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 5:47:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDF537B416 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 05:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16jKiv-000G0l-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:47:53 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id C7C3413040 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:47:52 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id A2E9F22597; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:47:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:47:48 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020308134748.GB49477@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> <200203081302.g28D2XC29103@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203081302.g28D2XC29103@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:02:33PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 6th March 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > >On 2002-03-06 23:31, Stephen McKay wrote: > > > >> I haven't yet seen a current generation window manager I can stomach, > >> and vtwm is good for a couple dozen windows, not hundreds. Actually, > >> even so-called modern window managers are poor at handling 100 windows. > > > >Actually, so-called modern humans are also poor at handling 100 windows! > >HOLLY GHOST! What do you need 100 windows for? > > Well, it sort of creeps up on you. Every day I seem to open and half read > a couple more web pages than I close. After a month or so, that starts > to add up, and I often hit 100 open windows in Opera. I never got that > far with Netscape because it got too cluttered much faster, and let's > face it, Netscape never stayed up long enough to open that many windows. > Opera also has that really handy "Resume from when you left off" feature > for those occasions when it does crash. That makes preserving your 100 > half-read pages a breeze! :-) > Oh bah to that, Netscape has the superior feature of resuming where you started off from, and you get there several times a day as a bonus :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 5:51:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D095A37B437 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 05:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jKly-000LDm-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:51:02 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id CEF8713040 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:51:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id BFED122597; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:50:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:50:56 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: testing Message-ID: <20020308135056.GC49477@raggedclown.net> References: <3C888B07.6090201@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C888B07.6090201@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 03:57:27AM -0600, Gerardo wrote: > sorry guys, just to test the if reverse dns lookup let me send mail now > As a bonus my spam filter gave you 1 point for having a From: name with a number in it :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 9:25: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9502B37B404 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25463; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:24:29 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020308102356.02338bb0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:24:16 -0700 To: Ryan Thompson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD invades Windows Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020308002600.F62108-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307225738.00cb54d0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 PM 3/7/2002, Ryan Thompson wrote: >Sure, but I also have a deadline. :-) I sort of hoped somebody had >beat me to it (and, they have :-) Where'd you find them? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 9:55:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0994237B400; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25814; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:54:58 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020308105203.0238f860@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:54:46 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cliff is a Luddite Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200203070342.g273g2j00694@orthanc.ab.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:42 PM 3/6/2002, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >>>>>> "Terry" == Terry Lambert writes: > > Terry> As to the idea that the observer always changes the thing > Terry> being observed, that's silly. It's only true if the observer > Terry> isn't copetent, until you get down to the quantum level. > >And in many cases, the "quantum" is defined by "the server just >crashed." Or more likely: who just crashed it. (See below.) Maybe it's Heisenberg's Server. It doesn't crash until you look at it. (Guess which OS it's running? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 9:55:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0994237B400; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25814; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:54:58 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020308105203.0238f860@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:54:46 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cliff is a Luddite Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200203070342.g273g2j00694@orthanc.ab.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:42 PM 3/6/2002, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >>>>>> "Terry" == Terry Lambert writes: > > Terry> As to the idea that the observer always changes the thing > Terry> being observed, that's silly. It's only true if the observer > Terry> isn't copetent, until you get down to the quantum level. > >And in many cases, the "quantum" is defined by "the server just >crashed." Or more likely: who just crashed it. (See below.) Maybe it's Heisenberg's Server. It doesn't crash until you look at it. (Guess which OS it's running? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 11:29: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2E337B41A for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g28JSrV02664; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:28:53 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Gautham Ganapathy Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org.in In-Reply-To: <003301c1c65c$f0232310$de56579d@india.ti.com> Message-ID: <20020308112757.F152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, Gautham Ganapathy wrote: > Does anyone know who was running the freebsd india website > (www.freebsd.org.in) ? It doesn't seem to have been up for quite sometime ? it wasn't associated with www.freebsd.org. so, really we'd have no clue. i believe the "official" freebsd.org india site would be www.in.freebsd.org. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 11:57:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE2037B449 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F3CC1239A0B; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:57:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:57:44 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Stephen McKay Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?) Message-ID: <20020308195743.GF55856@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home> <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net> <200203061331.g26DVFe15485@dungeon.home> <20020306155828.GA11735@hades.hell.gr> <200203081302.g28D2XC29103@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RMedoP2+Pr6Rq0N2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203081302.g28D2XC29103@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RMedoP2+Pr6Rq0N2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-03-08 23:02 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 6th March 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > >Actually, so-called modern humans are also poor at handling 100 windows! > >HOLLY GHOST! What do you need 100 windows for? >=20 > Well, it sort of creeps up on you. Every day I seem to open and half read > a couple more web pages than I close. After a month or so, that starts > to add up, and I often hit 100 open windows in Opera. I never got that > far with Netscape because it got too cluttered much faster, and let's > face it, Netscape never stayed up long enough to open that many windows. > Opera also has that really handy "Resume from when you left off" feature > for those occasions when it does crash. That makes preserving your 100 > half-read pages a breeze! :-) I haven't gotten to 100 yet, but I too use this mechanism to preserve many windows that I want to look at again later. I also just put the tab-bar over on the right, so I can see and easily select any of the first 20+ windows. When I get far over that, I know it's time to clean up some of the old windows. Opera's ability to save windows when it crashes or is closed is my absolute favorite feature, and would make it my browser of choice even if it were as slow as Mozilla or as poor as NSCP 4.x. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Five million battered women in mailto:gsutter@zer0.org this country, and I've always http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ eaten mine plain... hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --RMedoP2+Pr6Rq0N2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8iRe3IBUx1YRd/t0RApAYAJ90NXxXj9xcQUVg/4OKKbuE7BVGYgCeLewH 4ZN8hDqNeeBxEvbqo9zdDs8= =Ggfr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RMedoP2+Pr6Rq0N2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 13:53:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6420737B405 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4148 invoked by uid 100); 8 Mar 2002 21:49:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:49:35 -0600 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Mike Meyer , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Terry Lambert , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: > On Mar 7, Mike Meyer wrote: > > You can learn that using your own system. Wanna learn how to break > > into a generic install of FreeBSD? Install one, and go to work on > > it. It's no less interesting/fun/educational than trying to break into > > someone elses, and a lot less likely to get you into trouble. > And what if you want to learn how to break into Solaris? Then you install Solaris and use it. BFD. > There will always be an excuse given for hacking. I know one guy who > was well known in the security field for a number of years, who > reckoned that many years ago the 'we want to play with Unix' camp > split into two - those who had the balls to to go out and break into > expensive Unix machines dotted around the world, and those who were > so scared they went off and wrote their own (e.g. Linux). He forgot the third group - the ones who were talented enough to get hired to run or write OS's for those machines. Where do you think the people who wrote BSD came from? > Just because hacking is illegal doesn't mean you or I have the right to > judge those individuals who cause no harm and who only seek true > enlightenment through a thourough understanding of buffer overflows. :-) First, hacking isn't illegal. Using resources that don't belong to you - which is what breaking into someone's system is - is illegal. You can do either one without the other, or you can do both at once. Second, you can't take away someone right to pass judgement, all you can do is ignore them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 17:45:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4182337B419 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from earl-grey.cloud9.net (earl-grey.cloud9.net [168.100.1.1]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF1428CAF; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:45:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:45:47 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Leftwich X-X-Sender: To: Mike Meyer Cc: Paul Robinson , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Terry Lambert , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <20020308204412.I67650-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> Organization: Video2Video Services - http://Www.Video2Video.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wasn't there a posted request to take this thread off-list? -- Peter Leftwich President & Founder Video2Video Services Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA +1-413-403-9555 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 1:15:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E83737B416 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 01:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16jcwt-000Duo-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 09:15:31 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 320A313040 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:15:30 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 8FFA7225C1; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:15:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:15:29 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020309091529.GD870@raggedclown.net> References: <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020308204412.I67650-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020308204412.I67650-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 08:45:47PM -0500, Peter Leftwich wrote: > Wasn't there a posted request to take this thread off-list? Off the security list yes, which it has been. This is -chat, presumably that means people just chat :) Just delete messages you are not interested in. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 7:40:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B1137B400 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 07:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A12753FC56; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:40:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:40:39 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Paul Robinson Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020309164039.A89088@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Paul Robinson , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk>; from paul@iconoplex.co.uk on Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 02:41:58PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 02:41:58PM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: Hi, > And what if you want HP-UX? Or AIX? Or VMS? Let me guess, your parents we= re > rich and would give you all the hardware you asked for, right? Or your LOL! That was indeed the only reason I've ever had to hack, gaining access to systems otherwise I would have never used. If curiosity and will = to learn is a crime, I should be in prison right now. > just wasn't like that. I'll be straight - I've only ever met a small hand= ful > of people who like me have used a Cray without having worked in the Yeah, I remember when I accessed a local uni Cray (a pretty old one btw) an= d spent quite some time reading those wonderful man pages and UNICOS documentation. I never did anything else on that computer other than read man pages and compile a couple programs to learn about 64bit'isms. I don't think I'm a criminal for that. =20 > scientific or supercomputer industry. Go figure. I'm not saying that hack= ing > is right, I'm just trying to point out that your head is stuck up your ass It may be not right, but it's not that bad as long as you have ethics. I mean, if there had been available test systems for me to use at that time I probably would have never attempted to access any of those computers. > so far you can't see the reality of why people sometimes do the things th= ey > do. Sometimes it just isn't possible to just 'install "OS" and use it' and Agreed, but it seems some people in this list can't (or do not want to) understand that simple fact. > that's where a significant proportion of the "I want to learn" hackers ge= t=20 > their motives from. Totally agree with you. > > First, hacking isn't illegal. Using resources that don't belong to you >=20 > Depends on country. In the UK, hacking is itself illegal. Computer Misuse= =20 > Act. Where you are, things may be different. I think by now most countries have anti hack laws. It's really sad how hackers have been demonized by the media. I've been hearing about cyberterrorist attacks that would lead to an Armaggedon for years, and am still waiting for it to happen. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8iiz2nLctrNyFFPERAnayAJwJEQbh8y2lXKk/aY2j7MldRXLgZACfQW+a Sxhz9nWYBRWWdYqP65KqAEU= =6t1F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 12:17:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A1F737B41A for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17346 invoked by uid 100); 9 Mar 2002 20:16:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:16:56 -0600 To: Paul Robinson Cc: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Terry Lambert , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: > On Mar 8, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Then you install Solaris and use it. BFD. > And what if you want HP-UX? Or AIX? Or VMS? In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. > I've only ever met a small handful of people who like me have used a > Cray without having worked in the scientific or supercomputer > industry. No problem. I was always curious about what it would be like to work on a Cray. I didn't steal time on one to find out, I waited until one of my employers decided they needed one. If that had never happened, I'd have never found out. The loss I would have suffered is relatively minor to the loss I would have suffered if I'd stolen cycles to get it. > > He forgot the third group - the ones who were talented enough to get > > hired to run or write OS's for those machines. Where do you think the > > people who wrote BSD came from? > That's a job, not a way of life, a way of thinking and something that > completely consumes your entire existence. Have you ever actually met any > proper hackers? Yes, I have. Most of them fit your description. Few of them felt the need to steal from others in order to get cycles. Unless you're using the word to refer only to hackers who are crackers, and not to hackers who manage to find legal ways to scratch those itches. > I'm not talking about script kiddies here - I'm talking > about people who live and breath it, and have real skills? > The sort that find the buffer overflows, I've known people who can timing nasty bugs in device driver by looking at the source. Compared to that, finding buffer overflows *is* script kiddie work. > write the exploits, have the choice to make money > out of it but who just want to have fun? No, didn't think so. You're right - everyone I know managed to find some way to make money out of their skills, so they could get paid for having fun, and stay on the good side of the law. Some of them might not have, as they were usually entangled with the law in one way or another most of the time I knew them - but never for having broken into someone else's computer. > Comparing people who enjoy their jobs and are good at it to people > who refuse to get jobs because they want to devote themselves to a > passion is ridiculous, I can't argue with that. One is a group of bright people who've managed to turn their passion into income, which is an extremely difficult task. The other is a group of criminals. They may well be very talented, and I admit that every time I talk about crackers who are also hackers. Some of them even have good social skills. But for most of the last 30 years, the industry has *desperately* needed people with those skills, and would put up with almost anything in order to get people to actually work on their problems. Finding a job that lets you play with cool hardware and is almost all play and no work wasn't hard. > > First, hacking isn't illegal. Using resources that don't belong to you > Depends on country. In the UK, hacking is itself illegal. Computer Misuse > Act. Where you are, things may be different. Please remember that I'm using the word "hacking" in it's original sense, of making computers - or hardware - do things the designer never intended. I'm not using it in the more restricted sense the press has given it, of misusing someone else's resouces. If the former is a crime in the UK, the UK is goign to be the poorer for it. It sounds more like the latter is a crime - and it should be. > Anyway, the point is, don't assume you understand the motives behind an > action no matter what it is, otherwise you may end up having to challenge > your understandings on huge swathes of society. My point is that the motives *don't matter*. If you steal a car to go joy riding in, to use as a getaway vehicle in a bank holdup, or to repaint and renumber, you're still a thief. The same thing applies to stealing CPU cycles. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 12:51:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD5137B405 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0210.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.210] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jnnx-0000Vp-00; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 12:51:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 12:50:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Paul Robinson , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, > and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your > curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. He's right. Computers that are running software take more electricity than those running the idle loop. This works because idle loops aren't software, and because CPU cycles cost money when you use them to do work, but cost nothing when there is no work to do. 8-). I realize that there are some very young people on this list, but realize also that the computer trespassing laws are circa the mid to late 1980's. Before that, it was not a criminal act to just look. - Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 14: 3:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 71AF937B400 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18084 invoked by uid 100); 9 Mar 2002 22:03:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:03:23 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Paul Robinson , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, > > and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your > > curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. > He's right. Computers that are running software take more > electricity than those running the idle loop. This works > because idle loops aren't software, and because CPU cycles > cost money when you use them to do work, but cost nothing > when there is no work to do. > 8-). Assuming, of course, that they were running an idle loop, and not doing real work. People don't normally spend 8 figures on computers that they then let sit idle a lot. One other comment - how many of you who felt like you had to break into computers to gain access to them thought about simply asking for access? I tended to give it away whenever I could, and I know other places that had similar policies. For that matter, the university I attended seriously undercharged for CPU time, so you could buy lots of CPU time for not a lot of cash. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 14:27:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (sng-exchange.skynetglobal.com [203.53.129.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6013B37B400 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.6/8.9.3) id g288V2U00739; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:01:02 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:01:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) Message-ID: <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:19:55PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 7 March 2002 at 22:19:55 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:26 PM 3/7/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> Are you sure? I've posted to other freebsd MLs with that kind of ID. >> If you're reading this, I think you'll find "localhost." in the ID. > > You escaped the filter by sheer luck. I just found out that the rule > they're using is > > /^Message-Id:.*@localhost>$/ REJECT > > Your IDs say "localhost.localdomain", not just "localhost", so they > slip through. The correct solution to this one is to fix the rule, not continue using invalid hostnames. I use a number of techniques to reject spam. It's fairly clear that an invalid server name can be construed in a number of ways: 1. An attempt to defraud: In: EHLO localhost.localdomain Out: 250-wantadilla.lemis.com Out: 250-PIPELINING Out: 250-SIZE 10240000 Out: 250-ETRN Out: 250 8BITMIME In: MAIL From: SIZE=1790 Out: 250 Ok In: RCPT To: Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [211.23.186.108] This one is clearly spam. 2. A complete incompetence: In: EHLO husqvarna.amazon.com Out: 250-wantadilla.lemis.com Out: 250-PIPELINING Out: 250-SIZE 10240000 Out: 250-ETRN Out: 250 8BITMIME In: MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=2039 Out: 250 Ok In: RCPT TO: Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [207.171.187.128] I'm currently offline, so I don't know if this is amazon or not. But if it is, the system administrators need to be taken out and shot. 3. Problems like the ones you describe (NAT, etc.). That's more of a problem. I'm sure that localhost and localhost.localdomain are always wrong names. But if you're really not on the global Internet, you should probably have a mail server which is, which is correctly configured, and which is prepared to accept your mail. Is there any objection to this? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 17:33:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A8E37B400; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C22BD4F; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23695; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:33:37 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2A1b2A04106; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Mar 2002 17:37:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 7 March 2002 at 22:19:55 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > You escaped the filter by sheer luck. I just found out that the rule > > they're using is > > > > /^Message-Id:.*@localhost>$/ REJECT > > > > Your IDs say "localhost.localdomain", not just "localhost", so they > > slip through. > > The correct solution to this one is to fix the rule, not continue > using invalid hostnames. It isn't an invalid hostname, it's an invalid message ID and, AFAIK, it's only invalid to a very few who choose to interpret a part of it as a host name. It's a de-facto standard that Message ID content doesn't matter; if some RFC proposes that it should matter, I guess we can only whine that the change of policy is a big bother and choose when or whether to comply. > I use a number of techniques to reject spam. It's fairly clear that > an invalid server name can be construed in a number of ways: > > 1. An attempt to defraud: > > In: EHLO localhost.localdomain > Out: 250-wantadilla.lemis.com > Out: 250-PIPELINING > Out: 250-SIZE 10240000 > Out: 250-ETRN > Out: 250 8BITMIME > In: MAIL From: SIZE=1790 > Out: 250 Ok > In: RCPT To: > Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [211.23.186.108] > > This one is clearly spam. If "clearly" means "very likely", then yes. Few would blame you for not worrying about the other, more unlikely cases. I assume that the above is not a personal accusation, but allow me to warn about the easily misused word "defraud", given that libel juries can more accurately judge the inference than the implication. defraud, tr.v., To take from or deprive of by fraud; to swindle. Or see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=defraud To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 22:33:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE5537B404 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jwtZ-0000hQ-00; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:33:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8AFE22.72C005FA@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:33:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Mike Meyer , Paul Robinson , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > Terry Lambert types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, > > > and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your > > > curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. > > > > He's right. Computers that are running software take more > > electricity than those running the idle loop. This works > > because idle loops aren't software, and because CPU cycles > > cost money when you use them to do work, but cost nothing > > when there is no work to do. > > 8-). > > Assuming, of course, that they were running an idle loop, and not > doing real work. People don't normally spend 8 figures on computers > that they then let sit idle a lot. Apparently, you were not around when they charged for CPU seconds, and each student was required to pre-buy them for their lab time, and the machines didn't have "HLT" instructions that saved "wear-and-tear" on the CPU, and the administrators either didn't understand that idle resources cost the same amount of money to maintain, or they didn't care. Until the system is fully loaded, the cycles are not a scarce (and therefore contended) resource. It costs the same to run a DEC 20 with or without people running programs on it, so the cycles might as well be doing computation. > One other comment - how many of you who felt like you had to break > into computers to gain access to them thought about simply asking for > access? I tended to give it away whenever I could, and I know other > places that had similar policies. For that matter, the university I > attended seriously undercharged for CPU time, so you could buy lots of > CPU time for not a lot of cash. Apparently, you had the cash, and your university didn't put quotas on the total amount of CPU time you could use, total, no matter how much you paid. Lucky you. People who came after the charge-for-CPU cycles really had it a lot easier than those who came before. The PC broke the stranglehold, making it impossible for the big iron to be used as a profit center any more. Of course, as previously discussed in this thread, the people who had unshared resources during their education have failed to learn a number of important lessons that can only be learned with shared resources. So the PC was probably the ruination of most recent computer science graduates. At least now we are getting to the point where bandwidth is the major limiting factor, so there might be some resource constrained growing that results from that. Unfortunately, it seems that many companies are following in the footsteps of the computing centers, charging for technical support. Now technical support is being considered a profit center. I think we can blame the shareware people, like "PC Write": the money they made was not in selling software, it was in obfuscating their software to the point it was unusable without a manual... and then selling manuals. Frankly, I'm almost happy Word Perfect died as a result of charging for technical support, when before they started doing that, they were the preemminent word processor, and MS Word didn't even have a toe-hold. It's quite amusing to see that people are still teaching -- and learning, and then entering the workforce using -- software design that makes usability such an afterthought... as if the "sell the documentation" model were still the fundamental basis of software economics. And people wonder why MS is so draconian about having their software "phone home"... when they're obviously trying to extend the lifetime of a dying revenue model. Back to break-ins... I personally know many people who broke into systems to learn. And the vast majority of them stopped immediately, as soon as it became illegal to do it, in their jurisdiction. I know of more than one person who got their start in the computer industry being made an operator or an intern to put their talents to use on the side of the gatekeepers, rather than the gatecrashers. Actually, just like I'd like to see someone claim "adverse use" in an intellectual property case, I'd also like to see someone claim "attractive nuisance" in defense of a computer break-in, where the sole motive was curiousity about how things worked. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 22:48:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF8137B402; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jx8N-00067Y-00; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:48:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:48:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > It isn't an invalid hostname, it's an invalid message ID and, AFAIK, > it's only invalid to a very few who choose to interpret a part of it > as a host name. It's a de-facto standard that Message ID content > doesn't matter; if some RFC proposes that it should matter, I guess we > can only whine that the change of policy is a big bother and choose when > or whether to comply. Compliance with RFC 1123 means that it must contain an "@", minimally, as a non-optional value. If the value to the right of the "@", before the closing ">" is present, it is acceptable to interpret it as a "domain part", and require that it be valid. The definition of "valid" here, though, is real loose. > If "clearly" means "very likely", then yes. Few would blame you for not > worrying about the other, more unlikely cases. > > I assume that the above is not a personal accusation, but allow me to > warn about the easily misused word "defraud", given that libel juries > can more accurately judge the inference than the implication. > > defraud, tr.v., To take from or deprive of by fraud; to swindle. > > Or see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=defraud Actually, his use of the term is correct, as it applies to the fields being interpreted as claims of identity, as far as U.S. wire fraud statutes are concerned. One of the original crackdowns on crackers, and one that is still used today as one of the charges against them, is wire fraud, by claiming a fradulent identity, when providing the identity to a remote system. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 23: 1: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3CA37B400 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16jxJe-0004yw-00; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8B0473.D544FB8@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:00:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer , Mike Meyer , Paul Robinson , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> <3C8AFE22.72C005FA@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > People who came after the charge-for-CPU cycles really had it > a lot easier than those who came before. The PC broke the > stranglehold, making it impossible for the big iron to be used > as a profit center any more. Of course, as previously discussed > in this thread, the people who had unshared resources during > their education have failed to learn a number of important > lessons that can only be learned with shared resources. So > the PC was probably the ruination of most recent computer > science graduates. At least now we are getting to the point > where bandwidth is the major limiting factor, so there might > be some resource constrained growing that results from that. I don't think I can make this point strongly enough. There is no gradation in escalation in penalties these days. There is only a binary switch between "no penalty" and "full scale nuclear response". In the old shared resources days, you would get a tap on the shoulder from the system administrator, and then you would "serve your time" swapping tapes and otherwise having to put up with the crap you would otherwise be making them put up with, all the while being told that you were now a "priviledged user". Power and responsibility were proportional. I would really like it if the penalties were more local and less severe, like they used to be. It would be nice if the system was actually still built so that people could learn from their mistakes, rather than repeating them more and more eggregiously, until the storm troopers kicked in their door, and gave them no opportunity to reddress their sins, nor to learn from them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 23: 2:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020FA37B402 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16jxLT-0006yG-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:02:15 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 7EE1A13040 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:02:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 8DAA5225C4; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:02:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:02:14 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) Message-ID: <20020310070214.GA1196@raggedclown.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:48:25PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > One of the original crackdowns on crackers, and one that is > still used today as one of the charges against them, is > wire fraud, by claiming a fradulent identity, when providing > the identity to a remote system. > There used to be in the UK (maybe still is) an interesting law that was used for people who worked out how to make telephone calls without being charged for them on their domestic phones. They were charged with "Stealing Electricity". -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message