From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 6:49:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail.raleigh.hcl.com (mail.raleigh.hcl.com [208.204.254.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE9737B435 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 06:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.204.254.100] by mail.raleigh.hcl.com(Warp-9/NT) id 190065835.0 with ESMTP; Thu, 30 May 2002 13:57:35 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530095029.00b02118@ralraleigh.hcl.com> X-Sender: gswright@pop-server.nc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:50:48 -0400 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: Graham Wright Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 6:58:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail.raleigh.hcl.com (mail.raleigh.hcl.com [208.204.254.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32ABC37B406 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.204.254.100] by mail.raleigh.hcl.com(Warp-9/NT) id 190066352.0 with ESMTP; Thu, 30 May 2002 14:06:12 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530095331.00af1c58@ralraleigh.hcl.com> X-Sender: grahamw@ralraleigh.hcl.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:59:25 -0400 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: Graham Wright Subject: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please excuse the obvious newbie question here but I'm trying to understand what the pro's and con's are of using FreeBSD vs Linux in an embedded appliance scenario. The marketing people seem to feel that Linux should be the OS of choice since there is a higher level of consumer acceptance, while the technical staff feels that FreeBSD is preferable due to it's superior TCP/IP stack. Of course, I haven't been able to find any technical comparisons between the two so I thought I'd ask the experts :-) Thanks, Graham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 7:19:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from portal.txcyber.com (portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB6637B406 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pop@localhost) by portal.txcyber.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4UEJfS21335; Thu, 30 May 2002 09:19:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:19:41 -0500 Message-Id: <200205301419.g4UEJfS21335@portal.txcyber.com> X-Authentication-Warning: portal.txcyber.com: pop set sender to thoele@txcyber.com using -f From: "Troy Thoele" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? References: <> In-Reply-To: <> X-Mailer: oMail 0.95pre1 - http://webmail.omnis.ch X-IPAddress: 205.140.148.118 X-Sender: thoele@txcyber.com Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here is my 2 cents. I looked at PicoBSD when it first came out, with the prebuilt single floppies and the first Pico tools. I now run a multitude of FreeBSD 4.5 servers, but I've just about given up with Pico development. It looks like Pico isn't staying current with the mainstream FreeBSD development. This is unfortunate, as some of us (me) aren't too good with programming, and if something is broken, I generally need outside help to fix it. I've been experimenting with some embedded Linux platforms, and they are alot more user friendly in my opinion, but lack the "lean and mean" of Pico. Regards, Troy On Thu, 30 May 2002 09:59:25 -0400, Graham Wright wrote : > Please excuse the obvious newbie question here but I'm trying to understand > what the pro's and con's are of using FreeBSD vs Linux in an embedded > appliance scenario. The marketing people seem to feel that Linux should be > the OS of choice since there is a higher level of consumer acceptance, > while the technical staff feels that FreeBSD is preferable due to it's > superior TCP/IP stack. > > Of course, I haven't been able to find any technical comparisons between > the two so I thought I'd ask the experts :-) > > Thanks, > Graham > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 7:51:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from cubical.fi (ip212-226-173-1.adsl.kpnqwest.fi [212.226.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C8437B405 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 07:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by cubical.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4UEpeu42922; Thu, 30 May 2002 17:51:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from jml@cubical.fi) Received: from cubical.fi (dhcp-63.cs-intra.net [192.168.42.63]) by cubical.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6av) with ESMTP id g4UEpdo42913; Thu, 30 May 2002 17:51:39 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from jml@cubical.fi) Message-ID: <3CF63C86.546D2FBD@cubical.fi> Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:51:50 +0300 From: Juha-Matti Liukkonen Organization: Cubical Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham Wright Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530095331.00af1c58@ralraleigh.hcl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, in my experience, there are a few deciding factors involved... Any or all of these may apply in a given scenario. o if you need a small footprint GUI with little or no work, go linux. It has microwindows (which doesn't work with freebsd out-of-the-box). o if you need Java, go linux. Sun explicitly provides jdk for linux, availability for freebsd has been less stable due to various reasons. o if you need top-of-the-line PC gadget drivers, go linux. They just ain't there for freebsd (although the quality of the linux ones often tends to be a bit shaky). o if you want non-ix86 cpu support, re-enter this list comparing linux and netbsd (which is a bsd and runs on anything with silicon in it). FreeBSD is ix86 only (alpha isn't really a consideration in embedded systems, and the powerpc support isn't there yet). o if you want (or need) to modify the system sources for your application, go *bsd. It isn't GPL. o if you want (or need) your box to be a bulletproof back-end system (ie. no GUI, reliable, efficient, secure, networked), go *bsd. The code base is maintained so much better, it is more robust, updates are easy to manage and review due to their consistency and quality, (...lots of other reasons). o if you want added advertising value, go linux -- it _is_ better known, particularly to the consumer public and traditionally windows-hosted server and appliance markets. We use freebsd because we do networked back-end (ix86) boxes, but if we ever had to do consumer applications with GUIs, I wouldn't scoff on linux either. Br, Jussi PS. If anybody wants to dissuade my linux recommendations wrt GUI and Java support for small footprint systems, please do so; I see a need for those in my future and I'd rather stick with one base system for logistical reasons. Graham Wright wrote: > > Please excuse the obvious newbie question here but I'm trying to understand > what the pro's and con's are of using FreeBSD vs Linux in an embedded > appliance scenario. The marketing people seem to feel that Linux should be > the OS of choice since there is a higher level of consumer acceptance, > while the technical staff feels that FreeBSD is preferable due to it's > superior TCP/IP stack. > > Of course, I haven't been able to find any technical comparisons between > the two so I thought I'd ask the experts :-) > > Thanks, > Graham > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message -- Juha-Matti Liukkonen, Cubical Solutions Ltd Phone: +358(0)405280142 Email: jml@cubical.fi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 8: 6:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from gidgate.gid.co.uk (gid.co.uk [194.32.164.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7578237B403 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 08:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rb@localhost) by gidgate.gid.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4UF5vk79262; Thu, 30 May 2002 16:05:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020530155213.00c7aa30@gid.co.uk> X-Sender: rbmail@gid.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:05:53 +0100 To: graham.wright@raleigh.hcl.com From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, We've got routers running custom PicoBSD at various points arounnd the globe. We're also using various custom Pico-based diskless configs for assorted unusual tasks. The various Linux options are not so compact, and being mainly BSD-based we didn't see any advantage in going up the learning curve. The standard Pico configs probably aren't much use except as examples. Bottom line: Pico is _very_ compact (I continue to be amazed just how much you can get on a single floppy, although we mostly use CF or PXEboot) and customisable but you have to put the work in. -- Bob Bishop +44 (0)118 977 4017 rb@gid.co.uk fax +44 (0)118 989 4254 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 9:46:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cruzio.com (dsl3-63-249-66-210.cruzio.com [63.249.66.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4053037B404 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by mail.cruzio.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g4UGxLm00582 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 09:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200205301659.g4UGxLm00582@mail.cruzio.com> To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: embedded GUI options? Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, in light of the mention of microwindows: > microwindows (which doesn't work with freebsd out-of-the-box has anyone recently evaluated current embedded GUI options available under PicoBSD (or FreeBSD w/o X), specifically with smaller LCD displays in mind? What is the status of the Tiny-X stuff Jim Gettys was working on, is some version in the latest X kits? And other small such kits... And does anyone have any experience with LibGGI (KGI/GGI) under FreeBSD: http://people.freebsd.org/~nsouch/ggiport.html Is this useful to consideri/evaluate at this point? - bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 10: 5:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3959E37B403 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melange (melange.errno.com [66.127.85.82]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g4UH5be19458 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128 bits) verified NO); Thu, 30 May 2002 10:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01b001c207fc$3c6796d0$52557f42@errno.com> From: "Sam Leffler (at Usenix)" To: "Troy Thoele" , References: <> <200205301419.g4UEJfS21335@portal.txcyber.com> Subject: Re: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:05:37 -0700 Organization: Usenix Association MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I now run a multitude of FreeBSD 4.5 servers, but I've just about given up > with Pico development. It looks like Pico isn't staying current with the > mainstream FreeBSD development. This is unfortunate, as some of us (me) > aren't too good with programming, and if something is broken, I generally > need outside help to fix it. I have a picobsd-derived packaging environment for -stable that I try to keep current. (Actually it's derived from thewall which is in turn derived from picobsd.) My stuff is targeted at Soekris boxes but there's nothing I can think of to stop you from using it in other configurations--other than a bit of customization. http://www.errno.com/net4501/net4501.tgz The biggest problems I've encountered have to do with crunchgen and the inability to crunch various applications w/o some hacking. For compact flash-based environments it may make more sense to discard crunchgen and stick with shared libraries. Luigi favors this approach. I'd like to better understand the memory footprint tradeoff before moving away from crunchgen. Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu May 30 10:37:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from ns.stu.neva.ru (ns.stu.neva.ru [194.85.96.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15CE37B401 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from citadel.stu.neva.ru ([194.85.96.34]:38280 "HELO citadel.stu.neva.ru") by ns.stu.neva.ru with SMTP id ; Thu, 30 May 2002 21:37:06 +0400 Received: by citadel.stu.neva.ru (Postfix, from userid 10) id C3AD858032; Thu, 30 May 2002 21:36:58 +0400 (MSD) Received: by pulsepow.hop.stu.neva.ru (UUPC/@ v7.02, 26Apr98) id AA06216; Thu, 30 May 2002 20:51:28 +0400 (MSD) To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Message-Id: Organization: STUSP From: "D. Adamian" Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:51:27 +0400 (MSD) X-Mailer: Mail/@ [v2.45 MSDOS] Subject: Problem with /dev/cuaa3 in PicoBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! My problem with this /dev/ is that it's abscent. I can't find it. At boot time I do enable driver support for all sio-s. Also at boot time I have no conflicts of hardware. I have no problem with COM4 and modem being there under DOS. But when I tried one of small Linux distibutions --- Alfalinux (I know, it sucks) --- I had only /dev/cua0 and /dev/cua1. I can't build custom PicoBSD, cause I don't run FreeBSD on any of my machines. So I tried dialup version of PicoBSD. Does anyone know what should I do to access this serial port? Thanks in advance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri May 31 10: 1:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from post.softalia.com (post.softalia.com [65.161.202.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B1D37B401 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tigger.softalia.com ([65.161.202.175] ident=root) by post.softalia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 17Dpls-0007KV-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 13:01:00 -0400 Received: from tigger.softalia.com (kkonaka@tigger.softalia.com [65.161.202.175]) by tigger.softalia.com (8.11.4/3.7W-isfs) with ESMTP id g4VH10X22901; Fri, 31 May 2002 13:01:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:00:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: kkonaka@mac.com To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pro's and Con's of FreeBSD vs Linux for embedded systems? In-Reply-To: <3CF63C86.546D2FBD@cubical.fi> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530095331.00af1c58@ralraleigh.hcl.com> <3CF63C86.546D2FBD@cubical.fi> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.6.0 (Twist And Shout) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/20.7 (i586-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, > o if you need Java, go linux. Sun explicitly provides jdk for linux, > availability for freebsd has been less stable due to various reasons. I'm interested in comparison of efforts (pitfalls?) needed to port J2ME/CDC onto various *BSD systems (contemplating but not yet done seriously so far, ...maybe do nextweek :)). just have been looking at this, btw.: http://www.lynuxworks.com/products/lynxos/aphelion-java.php3 -- Aphelion Java Toolkit for LynxOS regards, kenji - a past MVME147/LynxOS user :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message