From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 14:20:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA5916A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B331943D3F; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBQEKbh02406; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:36 +0100 From: "Colin J. Raven" To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:45 -0000 On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: > Colin J. Raven wrote: > >> On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: >>=20 >>> Chris writes: >>>=20 >>>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>>> drive the car. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >>> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >>=20 >>=20 >> One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of t= he=20 >> engine. > > > One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking= the=20 > tires, and taking it for a test drive. > One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to=20 determine the suitability of the vehicle. Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven 3:19PM up 4:20, 2 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.63, 1.59 Today's Random Silliness: "There's a disturbance in the force, OK...who didn't flush the toilet?" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 00:51:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E034016A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151B243D39; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBS0pe84055972; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:51:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:57:25 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Burke References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:44 -0000 Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >> ugly. > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >> available to all that support this project. > > > I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > understand Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 01:44:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC1816A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D5943D5E; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS1huIN014267; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:43:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:44:39 -0600 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 -0000 This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it yourself". I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >Simon Burke wrote: >[snip] >>>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >>> ugly. >> >>Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > >This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. >Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy >installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. >But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the >website. Why? >Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and >tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They >might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the >lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but >one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >linux advocate instead. >We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken >seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > >[snip] >>>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>> available to all that support this project. >> >>I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>understand > >Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > >-- >R >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:46:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCEB16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13D643D45; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228024602i9100rffrre>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:58 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 -0000 Frank Pawlak wrote: > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > yourself". I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? > > I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial > properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The > development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought > many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the > core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... > Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) > > Frank > > At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Simon Burke wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the >>>> FreeBSD >>>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a >>>> redesign >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without >>>> being >>>> ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>> do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>> A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>> navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>> really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>> would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>> have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the >> problem. >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >> flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >> have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >> improve the website. Why? >> Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or >> similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation >> knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >> stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >> a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >> towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >> taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about >> it! >> >> [snip] >> >>>> 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>>> available to all that support this project. >>> >>> >>> I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>> understand >> >> >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. >> >> -- >> R >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 05:36:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF3616A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6643D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBS5aav82480; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , "Simon Burke" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > To: Simon Burke > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Simon Burke wrote: > [snip] > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > a redesign > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > >> ugly. > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is nothing compared to the labor cost. I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum amount of time learning how to do anything. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in some university and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they were doing. They don't really understand anything about technology infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there being any such thing as 'key employees' Why do you think that the current federal government administration just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize your products to what the customers in the market want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get the hell out' Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists conversation. In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. Ted From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 07:23:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4716A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F87E43D4C; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS7NEgV028552; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041228011612.0285ccd8@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:57 -0600 To: Ted Mittelstaedt , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: References: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 -0000 This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > > Vetterberg > > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > > To: Simon Burke > > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > > > > Simon Burke wrote: > > [snip] > > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > > a redesign > > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > > >> ugly. > > > > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > > problem. > >Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration >in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > > > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > > have today. > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > > improve the website. Why? > > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > >FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux >meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually >meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > >The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and >I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, >then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into >you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become >very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. >I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very >few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless >your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. > >You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk >thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't >understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate >technology into their systems, they don't even understand their >current system. > >CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows >guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can >boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows >if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't >do what they need done. > >If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging >Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, >until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over >commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up >this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have >extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will >jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then >I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage >their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they >have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and >a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some >critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation >and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a >Windows installation. > >The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the >Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" >either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they >want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus >Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. > >My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs >are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to >customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. >I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that >is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the >customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of >time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can >do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do >Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is >nothing compared to the labor cost. > >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones >that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only >want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch >us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to >do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual >and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to >set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the >minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum >amount of time learning how to do anything. > > > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > > >Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here >but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees >in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers >in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most >of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, >and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago >were partying their way through a business degree in some university >and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their >companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you >know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too >scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the >money if they really knew what they were doing. > >They don't really understand anything about technology >infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high >school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And >the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in >business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect >of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into >their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be >interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there >being any such thing as 'key employees' > >Why do you think that the current federal government administration >just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new >economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to >new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that >comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays >big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing >such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current >debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount >of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very >few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. > >To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize >your products to what the customers in the market want, and there >is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically >increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want >you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, >and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would >buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only >way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last >speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of >key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned >this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is >going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants >to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what >the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it >for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get >the hell out' > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get >them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their >problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system >that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy >about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your >going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists >conversation. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These >CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to >be finished building the new system, who is going to train the >end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money >are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money >they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should >be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection >to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you >to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and >after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > >Ted > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 12:50:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A0F16A540; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840343D5D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228125011i9100rfdmee>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:07 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' >>Vetterberg >>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM >>To: Simon Burke >>Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; >>freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> >> > > >>Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >>flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >>have today. >> >> > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > It does, and that is why I use it. Amiga was like that too. > > >>But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >>improve the website. Why? >>Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar >>and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows >>why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >>stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >>a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >>towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> >> > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. > Why are you even talking to CEOs? This is a job for CTOs and/or CIOs, and if a company didn't have one you wound then be talking to a CFO or COO. >What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, > You assuming the consultant even knows about FreeBSD, most do not. >and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > > >>We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >>taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! >> >> >> > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Now thats just asinine. > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX is. at best they mistake it for Linux. >And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and CIOs. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. > this is a good idea, I'd have to agree with him. >You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. I want a part of the linux pie! From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 08:22:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1AA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B20343D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBT8Mfv87971; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:50 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; > freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Simon Burke > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >What they care about is: 'can what I need done > >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me > >in to you' > > > > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d > and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever > got fired for buying IBM" > If you think about it, d and e are the same thing as a and c. What does support constitute to the average CEO? If you asked them they would say that it's the ability to pick up the phone and get the problem fixed, right? Well guess what - you can do that with FreeBSD, there's paid incident support here: http://www.bsdmall.com/fbsdpay4tech.html about the same cost as the Microsoft offering, as a matter of fact. If you tell them that, they will sit back, scratch their head, and eventually say something along the lines of 'well I can just call any joe blow in the yellow pages for windows questions' And they are right. Because there's lots of so-called 'windows consultants' out there who are to put it bluntly, so piss-poor that they will give you gobs of free-but-worthless support over the phone in an attempt to get an appointment with you for some billable time. And if that doesen't work well, my kid brother has a computer that he plays Doom on all the time so he must be a computer sexpert, right? The people selling commercial FreeBSD support want a lot of money - but in exchange you get support that is actually worth what you pay for. The people selling commercial Windows support are all over the map - some do want a lot of money for good support, others will take a little bit of money for crap support. The CEOs that don't know any better figure that the cheap support is as good as the expensive support - so they then classify the expensive support (both windows and freebsd) in the 'nonexistent' category and then tell you with a straight face that freebsd is not supported. Now, if your talking hardware support - then please, yes there's lots of cheapskates running offices who are buying winprinters so they can save $50, we know that. And paying double for the ink cartridges, yes I know that one too. And as for the every one else uses it - where do you see this most? It's in the companies that don't want to spend a cent on training people. They want to hire their secretaries out of the local 1 year business prep school and put them to work writing letters with Microsoft Word, because that is all the business prep school trains them to do. What is missed of course is that since those sorts of people are only good for plunking down in front of a Windows XP system with Microsoft Word on it, after those people get finished writing your Microsoft Word document, they spend the last 6 hours of the day downloading new screensavers, changing the fonts on their computers, instant messaging their friends, etc. If instead you plunked them down in front of a FreeBSD system running XFree, after they got done with writing the memo you wanted them to write, they would be unable to idle away time on the computer, and you might actually get some useful work out of them. If you don't believe this take a look at the Microsoft desktop offerings. Microsoft is belatedly waking up to this and ever since NT, a skilled Windows admin can go in and lock down every scrap of anything on all his Windows NT, 2K, or XP desktops so that the secretaries can't do anything other than what their job is. And more and more companies are starting to do this, or at least try doing it. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD > from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company > that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > you might be. But your fighting the hardest battle. Unlike you I'm out there showing them how many tens of thousands of dollars they are going to save by not buying a new server that is running XP Pro Server, and Microsoft Exchange, and all the other nasty proprietary business software that Microsoft has designed to leech onto your company. > > VERY few customers are willing to deviate > >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > > > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where > talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > The Linux people are also talking about desktops. In fact, they are concentrating more on the desktops now than on the servers, that is why the Linux distros all have GUI installers and the like. When was the last time you installed Linux? Today's Linux is designed to be installed by a non-technical user, same as Windows. > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously > >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Now thats just asinine. > Not it is not. He is trying to sell himself and his company. Why in the heck shouldn't he be directing his customers to himself and his companies website? Geeze - the FreeBSD website not only has FreeBSD info it has lists of OTHER consultants. Why on earth would a consultant making a presentation want to direct the customer to a site that would give the customer a list of competitors? > > > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX > is. at best they mistake it for Linux. > Then don't even mention UNIX or Windows at all. > >And rather > >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice > >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be > >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > > > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to > the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the > company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and > CIOs. > Exactly - which is why as I said before (and you cut) the sales presentation is going to be a dud if all you do is sit there talking about how great this FreeBSD product is. When you go into one of these sales deals the CEO should be told exactly TWO things: that you can solve his problem, and how much it's going to cost. Everything else in the presentation is simply a lead in for these two things. The problem is that too many people that do these kinds of presentations don't understand that what they are selling is themselves. They think that "I'm going to try to go into that there customer and sell them a new server" Nowhere in their thought processes is the idea that they are there to find out what the customers problem is exactly, and sell THEMSELVES as the solution to it. I've seen a lot of these presentations and been in a lot where the customer tells the presenter what his problem is and the first words out of the presenters mouth is 'well you need a new server' It's like you might as well leave then. The presenter should be saying 'well you don't have enough space/you don't have enough speed/ your network has no virus protection/you don't have a database/etc/etc/etc and WE CAN FIX that. In short, the presenter needs to regurgitate the customers problem, and tell the customer they can fix it, and how much it is gonna cost. Period. It's not the presenters job to tell the customer how they are going to fix it - if the customer knew that, the presenter wouldn't even be there. > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I > bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > merit alone. > A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have never done consulting before and are just starting out. The var/integrator/consultancy market has a certain amount of attrition every year, companies form and break up every year. There's always new people coming into the market and old people leaving it. Some of those new consultants are going to have prior FreeBSD experience and will want to leverage that. The support they need from the FreeBSD Project is stuff like my book, good tech support assistance, and overall a strong stable OS. Ted From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:40:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7D16A4CF; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2043D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIen84089866; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:40:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FB92.9020508@401.cx> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:46:42 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: >> owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger >> 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: >> Simon Burke Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual >> Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of >>>> the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. >>>> Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight >>>> to the point. But >> >> a redesign >> >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- >>>> without being ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its >>> supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of >>> people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and >>> easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If >>> the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people >>> who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but >>> either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to >>> look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand >> the problem. > > > Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD > integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand > the problem. > > >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all >> the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros >> seems to have today. > > > That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like > it because it works better than most commercial operating systems > let alone most operating systems. "The" reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. >> But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve >> the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom >> full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD >> in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts >> about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast >> performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look >> at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >> linux advocate instead. > > Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle > about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need > done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't > lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. > FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. > Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C > and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > > The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO > and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source > provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm > locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that > your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no > competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I > trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am > ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or > daughter, and even then I may not. > > You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk > thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't > understand what your selling, they don't understand how to > integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand > their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back it up with proffesional looking websites with success-stories cluttered all over them, they usually decide to go with linux and goes to lunch. [snip] >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to >> be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do >> something about it! >> > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. As I said, Im not a consultant or anything, Im just an employee. I do not have a website of my own. >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big >> corporation. >> > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here "Big" as in 6000 employees spread across a few european countries. > but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees > in an office building, then even you must know that the check > signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. > Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales > ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who > 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in > some university and the only thing that they really know well is > how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a > big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are > incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even > when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they > were doing. > > They don't really understand anything about technology > infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high > school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. > And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that > in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' > aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled > into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be > interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there > being any such thing as 'key employees' > > Why do you think that the current federal government administration > just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new > economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to > new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that > comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big > business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing > such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the > current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the > amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. > Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control > freaks. > > To be successful in todays market you have to be able to > individualize your products to what the customers in the market > want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without > really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business > workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your > product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the > same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter > version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to > integrate technology completely in every last speck of business > process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key > technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned > this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is > going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants > to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what > the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it > for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get > the hell out' > > Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these > CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big > words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and > even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is > something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than > telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server > is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast > and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea > that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your > providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does > something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start > asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked > into a technologists conversation. I advocate a more proffesional looking image, and you shoot me down and then tells me I need more bells and whistles in my presentations? Im confused! My arguments to improve FreeBSD's image are almost identical to the ones you listed above. For all I care the firstpage of freebsd.org could be a big picture of Schwartznegger with a BSD tattoe on his biceps, but try to suggest even a change of font on the site and people freak out. > > In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson > that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These > CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to > be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end > users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are > they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they > are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be > figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be > talking about operating systems until you have sold them on > yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to > them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to > build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and > after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > I could be wrong, but I think we are suggesting basically the same thing, just on different places. You seem to think that I should cover up FreeBSD's amateurish look by creating a protective shell of fancy words and presentations. I suggest that we put the energy on actually fixing the image, and thereby eliminating the need of a shell. Unfortunally, I have seen this discussion go down so many times by now that I already knows how it ends. The people that tries to make a difference is scared away by the "dont touch my website" crowd. I will continue to advocate the use of FreeBSD, with or without help from the official website, but Im still hoping that someday maybe people will realize that not all decisions are made based upon the quality of the source, but on general appearance as well. -- R From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 21:17:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EBF16A4D4; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6643D5A; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041229211733i92002ah50e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:17:29 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical >>merit alone. >> >> >> > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have >never done consulting before and >are just starting out. > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 00:32:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8668D16A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.50.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263643D2D; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (schlepper [212.12.50.230]) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.13.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id iBU0WBAE000914; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D6982C4-59FA-11D9-8D31-000A95C893E4@lassitu.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stefan Bethke Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:09 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 -0000 It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke Fon +49 170 346 0140