From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 07:56:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37B816A417; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 07:56:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from cs1.cs.huji.ac.il (cs1.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C3413C468; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 07:56:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32]) by cs1.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1JBQMz-000CNu-6o; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:56:33 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.2 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: References: <477C82F0.5060809@freebsd.org> <863ateemw2.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801032200.25650.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <8663yac62d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <477E72FC.5070304@freebsd.org> <477EA466.6060204@FreeBSD.org> <477EFEAB.8090807@freebsd.org> Comments: In-reply-to "Peter Wemm" message dated "Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:24:30 -0800." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:56:32 +0200 From: Danny Braniss Message-ID: Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8?=@freebsd.org, Tim Kientzle , Peter Schuller , Jason Evans , rgrav Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 07:56:36 -0000 > > > Peter Wemm wrote: > > > > > On the other hand, if ld-elf.so.1 is fairly unique in this > > > > > concern, it might be simpler to rename it to: > > > > > ld-elf-{i386,amd64,ppc,...}.so.1 > > > > > > > > While this doesn't count as an explicit vote against the rename, we > > can > > > > solve the chroot problem easily. > > > > > > Details? Does your approach also solve the problem of > > > sharing /usr across different architectures (either in > > > a diskless NFS environment or a dual-boot scenario with > > > a shared /usr partition)? > > > > > > > However, renaming ld-elf.so.1 is a bad idea in general. ... things > > like gdb > > > > "know" how to handle ld-elf.so.1. Getting those upstream folks to add > > > > additional strcmp()'s for ld-elf-i386.so.1, ld-elf-amd64.so.1 etc will > > > > be hard enough, and it will add another hurdle ... > > > > > > I'm not sure that I see the problem. What am I missing? > > > 1) gdb is built to debug binaries for a particular architecture. > > > (gdb/ARM can't debug gdb/i386 binaries) > > > 2) gdb therefore only needs to check for "ld-elf-"`uname -m`".so.1", > > > which is easy to handle when gdb itself is built. > > > > > > I can see some subtleties for cross-builds, but nothing > > > outrageous. > > > > > > It also seems that your argument applies just as well to > > > ld-elf.so.1 and ld-elf32.so.1. Either way, there's more > > > than one ld-elf.so.1, and therefore more than one name > > > to keep track of. > > > > > > I'm not championing the rename by any means, just trying > > > to better understand the issues. The fact that amd64 can > > > run i386 binaries but not vice-versa has a lot of subtle > > > implications. Also, this is the first time that FreeBSD > > > has really had large user bases on two fundamentally > > > different architectures, so it's the first time we've > > > really had to confront some of these support issues > > > (such as the shared /usr scenario). > > > > > > Tim Kientzle > > > > The main issue is NOT sharing / or /usr or /usr/local, that is peenuts. > > root and usr is less that 500 MGB, /usr/local though big, is handled > > neatly by amd (the automounter). > > cross building is one issue, but the real problem is sharing user's > > binaries. > > in Apple one can compile a binary for both i386 & ppc, and the binary is > > twice as big. side note, I compiled such a program, but by mistake chose > > two different binaries to be joined, and imagine my surprice when it acted > > differently from expected. > > We have come a long way since the days that a wrong architecture a.outwould > > just coredump. > > In the old days, we had ~/bin/$arch in our path to keep different > > binaries, it was the days of VAX/Sun, but since i386 arrived, this has > > been > > forgotten. Now we are concidering to deploy amd64, and it would be nice > > if it can be a 2way street - amd64 can run i386, but i386 should run the > > i386 > > version ... > > > > just blaberring before coffee. > > danny > > > It isn't very hard to do this at all. I did it as a proof-of-concept a few > months ago: > > peter@overcee[2:18pm]/tmp/demo-218> cat foo.c > #include > > main() > { > #ifdef __i386__ > printf("Platform = i386\n"); > #endif > #ifdef __amd64__ > printf("Platform = amd64\n"); > #endif > } > peter@overcee[2:18pm]/tmp/demo-219> ./foo_i386 > Platform = i386 > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-220> ./foo_amd64 > Platform = amd64 > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-221> cat foo.c > #include > > main() > { > #ifdef __i386__ > printf("Platform = i386\n"); > #endif > #ifdef __amd64__ > printf("Platform = amd64\n"); > #endif > } > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-222> which cc > /usr/bin/cc > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-223> cc -o foo_amd64 foo.c > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-224> cc -m32 -o foo_i386 foo.c > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-225> file foo_* > foo_amd64: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (FreeBSD), for > FreeBSD 8.0 (800006), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), FreeBSD-style, > not stripped > foo_i386: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), for > FreeBSD 8.0 (800006), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), FreeBSD-style, > not stripped > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-226> ./foo_i386 > Platform = i386 > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-227> ./foo_amd64 > Platform = amd64 > peter@overcee[2:19pm]/tmp/demo-228> uname -m > amd64 > > What I did was a half-dozen lines of a hack to our bmake glue for gcc. It > is a hack though because I did it as specs overrides rather than have it > figure the correct #include paths. This means my version doesn't interact > with -nostdinc mode correctly. Doing it to correctly handle the paths isn't > much harder. > > -Peter what Apple has is one file, that will run the appropiate binary if run on an i386 or a ppc, not 2 different files - universal binary - not rosetta. [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% uname -p i386 [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% gcc -arch i386 foo.c -o foo_i386 [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% gcc -arch ppc foo.c -o foo_ppc [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% lipo -create -arch ppc foo_ppc -arch i386 foo_i386 -output foo [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% file foo foo: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures foo (for architecture ppc7400): Mach-O executable ppc foo (for architecture i386): Mach-O executable i386 [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% ./foo Platform = i386 [macbook:system/danny/tmp] danny% ls -lsi foo 17768042 57 -rwxr-xr-x 1 danny wheel 28972 Jan 6 09:32 foo =================================== twister> uname -p powerpc twister> ./foo Platform = ppc twister> ls -lsi foo 17768042 57 -rwxr-xr-x 1 danny wheel 28972 Jan 6 09:32 foo danny From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 09:51:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8432816A41B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB2713C458; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5583077485; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:51:21 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:51:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart13184023.iyG8TNZ5Up"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Brooks Davis , Ivan Voras Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:51:23 -0000 --nextPart13184023.iyG8TNZ5Up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, > for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my > colleagues). I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of=20 rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / large files)= =20 on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been limited to=20 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. But perhaps that's all you are referring to. =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart13184023.iyG8TNZ5Up Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHgKSeDNor2+l1i30RAjynAKCl+ehI7a8/xoTBjc9Z5DTcR58obgCcDZF+ qvGLR/LxRjX47PfCCPo29r8= =Pjj5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart13184023.iyG8TNZ5Up-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 10:04:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC5616A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:04:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dnelen@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A87D13C458 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:04:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dnelen@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7258144rvb.43 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:04:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=Vd0oI6I2A/dvy6OXprQ8JE9LBlh761bza/yKyl1Eol0=; b=Y76UsWZP6OObEfL8QOH9OrxHCVQuwGxBwckG16qlTzIl4qKeY63wX+pPD0WK0c2gAHoawcJZKAb700ZqtJXstN2LPFUmKsEzoIY1WkP74fXjX0qMn9eacs3AqqiB6rRbW7gZ5UxC5gc0ARPQ1n5mSdNsinP13QvjyYdKlOaCE1I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=evGqxbCwCTXdQgPYPBu1QxsScT2gc7RGgaY2fCWDCBiHoBYipPsY/xjb7cYvmkNRKwqSY9hbsrqpwyyU15kenhML9KKnhrq8k59U0ImnVDJKFinr1WzW/129vNnEJOqbSmconu59YgZhXXJhiwjFDgeWrbCedN2QoTO4QmnRZY8= Received: by 10.141.49.6 with SMTP id b6mr9882227rvk.18.1199612391376; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 01:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.75.2 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:39:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:39:51 +0200 From: "Dima Nelen" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: bad packet length error X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:04:38 -0000 hi, i found strange problem with working ssh on server: gr login failures: Jan 4 08:21:57 gr sshd[16218]: Received disconnect from 193.125.78.113: 2: Bad packet length 1626711409. Jan 4 08:35:37 gr sshd[16254]: Received disconnect from 77.123.194.155: 2: Bad packet length 236618258. what is it and what should i fix? FreeBSD gr.holydns.com 7.0-BETA4 FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #0: Wed Dec 5 01:12:18 UTC 2007 dexx@gr:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GR amd64 -- *#) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 12:12:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBDA16A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp1.freeserve.com (smtp1.wanadoo.co.uk [193.252.22.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA8013C447 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp1.freeserve.com (mwinf3016 [172.22.159.44]) by mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CDA1C1002709 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:43:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3016.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4A948C400087 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:43:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from Vostro (unknown [91.104.113.116]) by mwinf3016.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 09501C400086 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:43:25 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20080106114325382.09501C400086@mwinf3016.me.freeserve.com From: "Darran" To: References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:43:13 -0000 Message-ID: <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AchQS5FE0OH2L8U9TgSHXsBOX82HJgACrfpQ Subject: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:12:39 -0000 Hello all, I downloaded, burnt and installed 7.0-RC1 (all torrent) on amd64 I downloaded the dell windows drivers for my laptop wireless card (which worked on i3686 6.2-RELEASE) and used ndisgen to create the .ko file (bcmwl5_sys.ko) and loaded it and then realised I had created the 32 bit driver so I re-did it and used the 64 bit file and loaded the 64bit .ko and at that point my laptop (Dell Vostro 1000) hung. I had put bcmwl5_sys_load="YES" in the loader.conf file I rebooted and now I don't get anything. As soon as it starts to boot it stops. There is a screen showing kernel dump info and I can copy it if needed but I have to burn the rescue iso otherwise I cant boot. Is this a known problem ? Does anyone have any advice ? Darran http://www.deejc.net From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 12:58:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC36716A41B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:58:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BC213C469 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:58:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7287273rvb.43 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:58:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=aHqARD3BQ6S3hAnjXMcnbml2SkD2H4MHRER01Bl5uhQ=; b=FzOl6OBfqT+zUC0hVHkIF+9FJG4E253vWqLDHID8TIvnSnig2z0ZjpoAoT01wxRyB6y1plDqfplHIGdEvcMEarHUaqrOMQYsCMIDgPdX7/Q4WKK9MIi5mZ8Mo+mh8fyemRH4NXKcY1rLBYrlsAC4x3qdbTJwVOwMDU75TgW+VO8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=YIeZadMJX4+4YBfSWd9+rWfKEakyGFNR8/mVG7V/vP/yuql5gtXMPApGc26pOoSoc1COX/mGCYHiUJ8v2RltdlbHHOcWIaoLly19rx2fdK3b7w843iX5ezRY3fs+OapndOqePImJsJLTGHFCd5oFUsIQSv56DCXlr4vUnRcOgC8= Received: by 10.141.15.19 with SMTP id s19mr9939755rvi.39.1199624303577; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 04:58:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:58:23 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "Peter Schuller" In-Reply-To: <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 271adb9d4d98f96c Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:58:24 -0000 On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: > > This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, > > for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my > > colleagues). > > I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of > rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / large files) > on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been limited to > 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. > But perhaps that's all you are referring to. Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, but only once. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 13:07:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA2616A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:07:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03DC13C44B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:07:21 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:07:24 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, >>> for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my >>> colleagues). >> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / large files) >> on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been limited to >> 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. > > It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard > to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar > machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. > >> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. > > Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, > but only once. kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you experience. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 13:51:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0431816A419 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D03A13C447 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:51:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBVtu-0006ih-LM for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:54 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:54 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:54 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:50:47 +0100 Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCE1F2BBCDE2C97088BADBDD9" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:51:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCE1F2BBCDE2C97088BADBDD9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability=20 > problems in ZFS. =20 I disagree - anything that causes a panic is a stability problem. Panics = persist AFTER the tunings (for i386 certainly, and there are unsolved=20 reports about it on amd64 also) and are present even when driving kmem=20 size to the maximum. The tunings *can not solve the problems* currently, = they can only delay the time until they appear, which, by Murphy, often=20 means "sometime around midnight at Saturday". See also the possibility=20 of deadlocks in the ZIL, reported by some users. > Please report any further non-kmem panics you experience. I did, once to Pawel and once to the lists. Pawel couldn't help me and=20 nobody responded on the lists. Can you perform a MySQL read-write=20 benchmark on one of the 8-core machines with database on ZFS for about=20 an hour without pause? On a machine with 2 GB (or less) of RAM,=20 preferrably? I've seen problems on i386 but maybe they are also present=20 on amd64. --------------enigCE1F2BBCDE2C97088BADBDD9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgNy3ldnAQVacBcgRAqzHAKDfZWQg5+0b7chMA8z3yclmReYs6gCeJ3ir GBVQIzcpbjgFk9JfyTrb1m0= =1aOH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCE1F2BBCDE2C97088BADBDD9-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 14:13:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5E716A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6531913C46E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: (qmail 10693 invoked by uid 503); 6 Jan 2008 13:46:42 -0000 Received: from gw2.ovh.net (HELO mail246.ha.ovh.net) (213.251.189.202) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 13:46:42 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 13:46:10 -0000 Received: from 217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl (HELO arsenic) (maciej@suszko.eu@217.153.241.141) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 13:46:08 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:46:27 +0100 From: Maciej Suszko To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Ovh-Remote: 217.153.241.141 (217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.505683/N Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:13:18 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: > > On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: > >>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by > >>> rsync, for example (speaking from my own experience, and also > >>> some of my colleagues). > >> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of > >> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / > >> large files) on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me > >> have been limited to 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather > >> than "hard" issues. > > > > It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often > > hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, > > similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the > > problem. > > > >> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. > > > > Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, > > but only once. > > kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability > problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you > experience. I agree that ZFS is pretty stable itself. I use 32bit machine with 2gigs od RAM and all hang cases are kmem related, but the fact is that I haven't found any way of tuning to stop it crashing. When I do some rsyncing, especially beetwen different pools - it hangs or reboots - mostly on bigger files (i.e. rsyncing ports tree with distfiles). At the moment I patched the kernel with vm_kern.c.2.patch and it just stopped crashing, but from time to time the machine looks like beeing freezed for a second or two, after that it works normally. Have you got any similar experience? -- regards, Maciej Suszko. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 14:27:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7695B16A418; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:27:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BE013C44B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:27:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:27:18 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:27:20 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability >> problems in ZFS. > > I disagree - anything that causes a panic is a stability problem. Panics > persist AFTER the tunings (for i386 certainly, and there are unsolved > reports about it on amd64 also) and are present even when driving kmem > size to the maximum. The tunings *can not solve the problems* currently, > they can only delay the time until they appear, which, by Murphy, often > means "sometime around midnight at Saturday". That's an assertion directly contradicted by my experience running a heavily loaded 8-core i386 package builder. Please explain in detail the steps you have taken to tune your kernel. Do you have the vm_kern.c patch applied? > See also the possibility > of deadlocks in the ZIL, reported by some users. Yes, this is an outstanding issue. There are a couple of others I run into in the above configuration, but kmem panics aren't among them. >> Please report any further non-kmem panics you experience. > > I did, once to Pawel and once to the lists. Pawel couldn't help me and > nobody responded on the lists. Can you perform a MySQL read-write > benchmark on one of the 8-core machines with database on ZFS for about > an hour without pause? On a machine with 2 GB (or less) of RAM, > preferrably? I've seen problems on i386 but maybe they are also present > on amd64. I am not set up to test this right now. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 14:51:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953ED16A469 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:51:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682EA13C45A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:51:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7312222rvb.43 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 06:51:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=mYFTaSd9TitXM0YfAOjSauk3dDQx7TBh1aPM+PGTKFs=; b=F5HjgJTECqDKlZk49YLlLQkiEz791+cL+VLmkUBMffwL6edNwQVaVSgDU1aq2mytw3RXMu7GOfniea7aNvdc99z3jP8q5UGmxERpMomA0QopKAjTLNExNC6osuEKLVsFiXe71tzRDXEkmk6YA2awhU9/Vf4IB+2w7DGRiOXbP8E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=n1saDmBCS3dNJ0FvI6KMPKImoZx1tJUbBBke91vc7VTBksblXyVxhDd2CoVPLpS32PY6tCzIB2NbiZ025IYAxCKmtWM4FeqRKodbch+WUOXnvPmXsiK/6dRStHMp4TO+l8gjJrN3ZnTJHtO44yDb3RdvvavHUtuhujh1QD9Imyw= Received: by 10.141.50.17 with SMTP id c17mr9974330rvk.295.1199631066007; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 06:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 06:51:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:51:05 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "Kris Kennaway" In-Reply-To: <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4c88e74dcc71c0d1 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:51:06 -0000 On 06/01/2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: > That's an assertion directly contradicted by my experience running a > heavily loaded 8-core i386 package builder. What is the IO profile of this usage? I'd guess that it's "short bursts of high activity (archive extraction, installing) followed by long periods of low activity (compiling)". From what I see on the lists and somewhat from my own experience, the problem appears more often when the load is more like "constant high r+w activity", probably with several users (applications) doing the activity in parallel. > Please explain in detail > the steps you have taken to tune your kernel. vm.kmem_size="512M" vm.kmem_size_max="512M" This should be enough for a 2 GB machine that does other things. > Do you have the vm_kern.c > patch applied? I can confirm that while it delays the panics, it doesn't eliminate them (this also seems to be the conclusion of several users that have tested it shortly after it's been posted). The fact that it's not committed is good enough indication that it's not The Answer. (And besides, asking users to apply non-committed patches just to run their systems normally is bad practice :) I can just imagine the Release Notes: "if you're using ZFS, you'll have to manually patch the kernel with this patch:..." :) This close to the -RELEASE, I judge the chances of it being committed are low). From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 15:08:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE82B16A420; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:08:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB8C13C46B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:08:57 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:08:59 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > On 06/01/2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> That's an assertion directly contradicted by my experience running a >> heavily loaded 8-core i386 package builder. > > What is the IO profile of this usage? I'd guess that it's "short > bursts of high activity (archive extraction, installing) followed by > long periods of low activity (compiling)". From what I see on the > lists and somewhat from my own experience, the problem appears more > often when the load is more like "constant high r+w activity", > probably with several users (applications) doing the activity in > parallel. This is a high I/O environment including lots of parallel activity. >> Please explain in detail >> the steps you have taken to tune your kernel. > > vm.kmem_size="512M" > vm.kmem_size_max="512M" > > This should be enough for a 2 GB machine that does other things. No, clearly it is not enough (and you claimed previously to have done more tuning than this). I have it set to 600MB on the i386 system with a 1.5GB KVA. Both were necessary. >> Do you have the vm_kern.c >> patch applied? > > I can confirm that while it delays the panics, it doesn't eliminate > them (this also seems to be the conclusion of several users that have > tested it shortly after it's been posted). The fact that it's not > committed is good enough indication that it's not The Answer. It is planned to be committed. Pawel has been away for a while. > (And besides, asking users to apply non-committed patches just to run > their systems normally is bad practice :) I can just imagine the > Release Notes: "if you're using ZFS, you'll have to manually patch the > kernel with this patch:..." :) ZFS already tells you up front that it's experimental code and likely to have problems. Users of 7.0-RELEASE should not have unrealistic expectations. > This close to the -RELEASE, I judge the chances of it being committed are low). Perhaps, but that only applies to 7.0-RELEASE. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 15:36:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2346016A41B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:36:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062D413C468; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:36:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD404A712; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:36:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:36:06 -0000 On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Ivan Voras wrote: > As far as I know about the details of implementation and what would it take > to fix the problems, is it safe to assume ZFS will never become stable > during 7.x lifetime? I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but another thing worth taking into account in considering the stability of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an experimental feature there as well. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 15:46:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027ED16A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD7E13C447; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:46:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4780F7C0.5010101@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:46:08 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maciej Suszko References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:46:12 -0000 Maciej Suszko wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Ivan Voras wrote: >>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by >>>>> rsync, for example (speaking from my own experience, and also >>>>> some of my colleagues). >>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >>>> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / >>>> large files) on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me >>>> have been limited to 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather >>>> than "hard" issues. >>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often >>> hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, >>> similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the >>> problem. >>> >>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, >>> but only once. >> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability >> problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you >> experience. > > I agree that ZFS is pretty stable itself. I use 32bit machine with > 2gigs od RAM and all hang cases are kmem related, but the fact is that > I haven't found any way of tuning to stop it crashing. When I do some > rsyncing, especially beetwen different pools - it hangs or reboots - > mostly on bigger files (i.e. rsyncing ports tree with distfiles). > At the moment I patched the kernel with vm_kern.c.2.patch and it just > stopped crashing, but from time to time the machine looks like beeing > freezed for a second or two, after that it works normally. > Have you got any similar experience? That is expected. That patch makes the system do more work to try and reclaim memory when it would previously have panicked from lack of memory. However, the same advice applies as to Ivan: you should try and tune the memory parameters better to avoid this last-ditch sitation. Kris P.S. It sounds like you do not have sufficient debugging configured either: crashes should produce either a DDB prompt or a coredump so they can be studied and understood. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 15:48:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FED16A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) Received: from tignes.restart.be (unknown [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DC113C458; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) Received: from restart.be (avoriaz.tunnel.bel [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::fffe:0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "avoriaz.restart.be", Issuer "CA master" (verified OK)) by tignes.restart.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0D21BAC24; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:48:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from morzine.restart.bel (morzine6.restart.bel [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by restart.be (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m06Fm9G8009039; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:48:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=restart.be; s=avoriaz; t=1199634493; bh=3aosA0Xyqgl7ukOp1MMKt0aIKlDWkDOznPQtJYN NEik=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization: User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Scanned-By; b=ckYPZ6H5+ZI XILhPgVISBsVE37ca+T7+fKBhYY1LjxCLXkh9+VMDoXW4R7R5/jmi7okKovZSgtZDVY 1z/yTAAg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=avoriaz; d=restart.be; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc: subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:x-scanned-by; b=DDHXYTcSoHlsFNLturM84/hECu/yIrW1KHBy8UQ3gMUAnq15UwuM15Q0uvANJSAai 3BmAt+IhgZcUbU/WRxpnQ== Message-ID: <4780F839.5020200@restart.be> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:48:09 +0100 From: Henri Hennebert Organization: RestartSoft User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071118) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1:1 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , Ivan Voras , Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:48:15 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: >> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, >>>> for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my >>>> colleagues). >>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >>> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / large >>> files) >>> on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been >>> limited to >>> 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. >> >> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard >> to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar >> machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. >> >>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >> >> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, >> but only once. > > kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability > problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you experience. I encounter 2 times a deadlock during high I/O activity (the last one during rsync + rm -r on a 5GB hierarchy (openoffice-2/work). I was running with this patch: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/patches/zgd_done.patch db> show allpcpu Current CPU: 1 cpuid = 0 curthread = 0xa5ebe440: pid 3422 "txg_thread_enter" curpcb = 0xeb175d90 fpcurthread = none idlethread = 0xa5529aa0: pid 12 "idle: cpu0" APIC ID = 0 currentldt = 0x50 cpuid = 1 curthread = 0xa56ab220: pid 47 "arc_reclaim_thread" curpcb = 0xe6837d90 fpcurthread = none idlethread = 0xa5529880: pid 11 "idle: cpu1" APIC ID = 1 currentldt = 0x50 With the 2 times arc_reclaim_thread `running` > > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:03:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A202A16A41B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:03:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D827913C467; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:03:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4780FBE2.8040208@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:03:46 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henri Hennebert References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780F839.5020200@restart.be> In-Reply-To: <4780F839.5020200@restart.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , Ivan Voras , Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:03:49 -0000 Henri Hennebert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Ivan Voras wrote: >>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, >>>>> for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my >>>>> colleagues). >>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >>>> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / large >>>> files) >>>> on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been >>>> limited to >>>> 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. >>> >>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard >>> to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar >>> machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. >>> >>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >>> >>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, >>> but only once. >> >> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability >> problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you >> experience. > > I encounter 2 times a deadlock during high I/O activity (the last one > during rsync + rm -r on a 5GB hierarchy (openoffice-2/work). > > I was running with this patch: > http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/patches/zgd_done.patch > db> show allpcpu > Current CPU: 1 > > cpuid = 0 > curthread = 0xa5ebe440: pid 3422 "txg_thread_enter" > curpcb = 0xeb175d90 > fpcurthread = none > idlethread = 0xa5529aa0: pid 12 "idle: cpu0" > APIC ID = 0 > currentldt = 0x50 > > cpuid = 1 > curthread = 0xa56ab220: pid 47 "arc_reclaim_thread" > curpcb = 0xe6837d90 > fpcurthread = none > idlethread = 0xa5529880: pid 11 "idle: cpu1" > APIC ID = 1 > currentldt = 0x50 > > With the 2 times arc_reclaim_thread `running` Backtraces of the affected processes (or just alltrace) are usually required to proceed with debugging, and lock status is also often vital (show alllocks, requires witness). Also, in the case when threads are actually running (not deadlocked), then it is often useful to repeatedly break/continue and sample many backtraces to try and determine where the threads are looping. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:06:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4308A16A468 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:05:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: from 26.mail-out.ovh.net (26.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.27.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EB8813C45D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:05:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: (qmail 30736 invoked by uid 503); 6 Jan 2008 16:06:21 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 06 Jan 2008 16:06:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail147.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 16:06:21 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 16:05:55 -0000 Received: from 217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl (HELO arsenic) (maciej@suszko.eu@217.153.241.141) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 16:05:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:05:44 +0100 From: Maciej Suszko To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080106170544.93f7ab1b.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <4780F7C0.5010101@FreeBSD.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> <4780F7C0.5010101@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Ovh-Remote: 217.153.241.141 (217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.500111/N Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:06:01 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Maciej Suszko wrote: > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> Ivan Voras wrote: > >>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: > >>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by > >>>>> rsync, for example (speaking from my own experience, and also > >>>>> some of my colleagues). > >>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot > >>>> of rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / > >>>> large files) on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me > >>>> have been limited to 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather > >>>> than "hard" issues. > >>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often > >>> hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, > >>> similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the > >>> problem. > >>> > >>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. > >>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem > >>> related, but only once. > >> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of > >> stability problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem > >> panics you experience. > > > > I agree that ZFS is pretty stable itself. I use 32bit machine with > > 2gigs od RAM and all hang cases are kmem related, but the fact is > > that I haven't found any way of tuning to stop it crashing. When I > > do some rsyncing, especially beetwen different pools - it hangs or > > reboots - mostly on bigger files (i.e. rsyncing ports tree with > > distfiles). At the moment I patched the kernel with > > vm_kern.c.2.patch and it just stopped crashing, but from time to > > time the machine looks like beeing freezed for a second or two, > > after that it works normally. Have you got any similar experience? > > That is expected. That patch makes the system do more work to try > and reclaim memory when it would previously have panicked from lack > of memory. However, the same advice applies as to Ivan: you should > try and tune the memory parameters better to avoid this last-ditch > sitation. As Ivan said - tuning kmem_size only delay the moment system crash, earlier or after it happens - that's my point of view. > P.S. It sounds like you do not have sufficient debugging configured > either: crashes should produce either a DDB prompt or a coredump so > they can be studied and understood. You're right - I turned debugging off, because it's not a production machine and I can afford such behaviour. Right now, using kernel with kmem patch applied it's ,,usable''. -- regards, Maciej Suszko. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:10:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DC616A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:10:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srw@udor.net) Received: from mail.udor.net (mail.udor.net [64.34.95.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E2713C43E; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:10:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srw@udor.net) Received: from localhost (KD121110020099.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp [121.110.20.99]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.udor.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FF64294; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:06:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:10:39 +0900 From: srwadleigh To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek Message-ID: <20080107011039.6f886630@udor.net> In-Reply-To: <20080105150355.GB6472@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20080102114327.62f661f5@udor.net> <20080105150355.GB6472@garage.freebsd.pl> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/BRHvKKQAf7wU7xIU8wwNOMg"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gjournal troubles X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:10:46 -0000 --Sig_/BRHvKKQAf7wU7xIU8wwNOMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:03:55 +0100 Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 11:43:27AM +0900, srwadleigh wrote: > > I am having a strange problem with gjournal on a thinkpad T41, > >=20 > > I am running: 7.0-PRERELEASE - Wed Jan 2 06:05:20 JST 2008 > > And have the problem with both a custom and generic kernel. > >=20 > > If I load gjournal through loader.conf or compile GEOM_JOURNAL into > > the kernel, upon reboot all my slices change, and break booting. > >=20 > > ad0s1a becomes ad0a > > ad0s1d becomes ad0d, and so on.. > >=20 > > If I manually run gjournal load after boot the slices are fine, > > everything works as expected. > >=20 > > Here is my journal setup: > >=20 > > /dev/ad0s1f.journal 64G /usr/home > >=20 > > Geom name: gjournal 2080874044 > > ID: 2080874044 > > Providers: > > 1. Name: ad0s1f.journal > > Mediasize: 70812433920 (66G) > > Sectorsize: 512 > > Mode: r1w1e1 > > Consumers: > > 1. Name: ad0s1f > > Mediasize: 71886176256 (67G) > > Sectorsize: 512 > > Mode: r1w1e1 > > Jend: 71886175744 > > Jstart: 70812433920 > > Role: Data,Journal > >=20 > >=20 > > Doing some research on the list I found a similar problem in the > > past with gmirror, where the slice and device ending at the same > > place was being confused. The solution suggested there seemed to be > > to hardcode the provider names into the metadata. > >=20 > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2005-May/014448.html > >=20 > > My question is, is this possibly the same issue now with gjournal? > > and is it possible to hardcode provider names after a journal has > > been created? >=20 > Just unmount the file system, stop the journal and call 'gjournal > label' with exactly the sam parameters as originally plus '-h' option. >=20 I will try this, currently my journal is on the same slice as data so I get the used by file system message. I may have to re-configure with a dedicated journal slice so I can use the -f option? Thanks for the help! I will see how it goes. srw --Sig_/BRHvKKQAf7wU7xIU8wwNOMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgP1/pXXBX0jZoJYRAlx/AKCsOaty/nE/GG4V1bY6pqwEHu04FgCgmg/Z C3dGhUxRNu7eno87h9YVn+g= =Tm54 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/BRHvKKQAf7wU7xIU8wwNOMg-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:22:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62C716A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:22:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E09113C448; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:22:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4781002F.5020708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:22:07 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maciej Suszko References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> <4780F7C0.5010101@FreeBSD.org> <20080106170544.93f7ab1b.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <20080106170544.93f7ab1b.maciej@suszko.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:22:09 -0000 Maciej Suszko wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Maciej Suszko wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by >>>>>>> rsync, for example (speaking from my own experience, and also >>>>>>> some of my colleagues). >>>>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot >>>>>> of rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / >>>>>> large files) on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me >>>>>> have been limited to 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather >>>>>> than "hard" issues. >>>>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often >>>>> hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, >>>>> similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the >>>>> problem. >>>>> >>>>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >>>>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem >>>>> related, but only once. >>>> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of >>>> stability problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem >>>> panics you experience. >>> I agree that ZFS is pretty stable itself. I use 32bit machine with >>> 2gigs od RAM and all hang cases are kmem related, but the fact is >>> that I haven't found any way of tuning to stop it crashing. When I >>> do some rsyncing, especially beetwen different pools - it hangs or >>> reboots - mostly on bigger files (i.e. rsyncing ports tree with >>> distfiles). At the moment I patched the kernel with >>> vm_kern.c.2.patch and it just stopped crashing, but from time to >>> time the machine looks like beeing freezed for a second or two, >>> after that it works normally. Have you got any similar experience? >> That is expected. That patch makes the system do more work to try >> and reclaim memory when it would previously have panicked from lack >> of memory. However, the same advice applies as to Ivan: you should >> try and tune the memory parameters better to avoid this last-ditch >> sitation. > > As Ivan said - tuning kmem_size only delay the moment system crash, > earlier or after it happens - that's my point of view. So the same question applies: exactly what steps did you take to tune the memory parameters? Extracting this information from you guys shouldn't be as hard as this :) Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:45:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C9816A46E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:45:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C1E13C510 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:45:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBYcW-0007oK-3U for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:45:08 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:45:08 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:45:08 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:45:01 +0100 Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigEDC04B50439687A9573D2846" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:45:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigEDC04B50439687A9573D2846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > No, clearly it is not enough=20 This looks like we're constantly chasing the "right amount". Does it=20 depend so much on CPU and IO speed that there's never a generally=20 sufficient "right amount"? So when CPU and drive speed increase, the new = amount will always be some bigger value? >(and you claimed previously to have done=20 > more tuning than this).=20 Where? What else is there except kmem tuning (including KVA_PAGES)? IIRC = Pawel said all other suggested tunings don't do much. > I have it set to 600MB on the i386 system with=20 > a 1.5GB KVA. Both were necessary. My point is that the fact that such things are necessary (1.5 GB KVA os=20 a lot on i386) mean that there are serious problems which aren't getting = fixed since ZFS was imported (that's over 6 months ago). I see you've added to http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide; can you=20 please add the values that work for you to it (especially for KVA_PAGES=20 since the exact kernel configuration line is never spelled out in the=20 document; and say for which hardware are the values known to work)? > ZFS already tells you up front that it's experimental code and likely t= o=20 > have problems. =20 I know it's experimental, but requiring users to perform so much tuning=20 just to get it work without crashing will mean it will get a bad=20 reputation early on. Do you (or anyone) know what are the reasons for=20 not having vm.kmem_size to 512 MB by default? Better yet, why not=20 increase both vm.kmem_size and KVA_PAGES to (the equivalent of) 640 MB=20 or 768 MB by default for 7.0? >Users of 7.0-RELEASE should not have unrealistic > expectations. As I've said at the first post of this thread: I'm interested in if it's = ever going to be stable for 7.x. --------------enigEDC04B50439687A9573D2846 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgQWNldnAQVacBcgRAhigAKDK9bFXJy5Y6nLyyk7Xb98iA57cwQCgrTRz as4xA3tKTpL2jXpYtGIKDuI= =dzLD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigEDC04B50439687A9573D2846-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:47:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02E116A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:47:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) Received: from tignes.restart.be (unknown [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555E013C46E; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:47:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) Received: from restart.be (avoriaz.tunnel.bel [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::fffe:0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "avoriaz.restart.be", Issuer "CA master" (verified OK)) by tignes.restart.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818161BAC24; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:47:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from morzine.restart.bel (morzine6.restart.bel [IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by restart.be (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m06GlUL0009254; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:47:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from hlh@restart.be) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=restart.be; s=avoriaz; t=1199638051; bh=Nxm2sVPv8+nDgveUYUpIlkxy7q/JQBlU5EAiTX5 Uwjs=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization: User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Scanned-By; b=tYgfi3LyqaP RgUdlBmzZy0G4AUOdX6tos56BA9gX7jch5kr7PGf9aOSHv6JEIiy+O66wnPlmbJ9XnW UcVvakMg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=avoriaz; d=restart.be; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc: subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:x-scanned-by; b=PjvlaThtwmrFLWE+TCkeHGBrZ1px7h/9q2oFH94wfUq46eP7qG1LGHf7tipNmeyxv hNAnykhsi1J6fDhOUJi+A== Message-ID: <47810621.8080406@restart.be> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:47:29 +0100 From: Henri Hennebert Organization: RestartSoft User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071118) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780F839.5020200@restart.be> <4780FBE2.8040208@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4780FBE2.8040208@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on IPv6:2001:41d0:1:2ad2::1:1 Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Peter Schuller , Ivan Voras , Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:47:33 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Henri Hennebert wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, >>>>>> for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my >>>>>> colleagues). >>>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >>>>> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / >>>>> large files) >>>>> on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been >>>>> limited to >>>>> 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. >>>> >>>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard >>>> to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar >>>> machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. >>>> >>>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >>>> >>>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, >>>> but only once. >>> >>> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability >>> problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you >>> experience. >> >> I encounter 2 times a deadlock during high I/O activity (the last one >> during rsync + rm -r on a 5GB hierarchy (openoffice-2/work). >> >> I was running with this patch: >> http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/patches/zgd_done.patch >> db> show allpcpu >> Current CPU: 1 >> >> cpuid = 0 >> curthread = 0xa5ebe440: pid 3422 "txg_thread_enter" >> curpcb = 0xeb175d90 >> fpcurthread = none >> idlethread = 0xa5529aa0: pid 12 "idle: cpu0" >> APIC ID = 0 >> currentldt = 0x50 >> >> cpuid = 1 >> curthread = 0xa56ab220: pid 47 "arc_reclaim_thread" >> curpcb = 0xe6837d90 >> fpcurthread = none >> idlethread = 0xa5529880: pid 11 "idle: cpu1" >> APIC ID = 1 >> currentldt = 0x50 >> >> With the 2 times arc_reclaim_thread `running` > > Backtraces of the affected processes (or just alltrace) are usually noted for next time > required to proceed with debugging, and lock status is also often vital > (show alllocks, requires witness). I add it to my kernel config Also, in the case when threads are > actually running (not deadlocked), then it is often useful to repeatedly > break/continue and sample many backtraces to try and determine where the > threads are looping. I do this after the second deadlock and arc_reclaim_thread was always there and second cpu was idle. Henri > > Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 16:50:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C1A16A418 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9437713C45A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBYhG-00080w-Ty for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:50:02 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:50:02 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:50:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:47:52 +0100 Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig4083928B2011A1784CF8EBD9" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:50:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig4083928B2011A1784CF8EBD9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Watson wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but anothe= r=20 > thing worth taking into account in considering the stability of ZFS is = > whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in Solaris. Last = I=20 > heard, it was still considered an experimental feature there as well. Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) --------------enig4083928B2011A1784CF8EBD9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgQY4ldnAQVacBcgRAgPaAJ9VdX3dBVBaTUe6sHPZp8BC7fGUrwCfQTy7 aQdjHiLPe1K5WOwdh67nJ4I= =Z7cc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig4083928B2011A1784CF8EBD9-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:08:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D5816A418; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB6913C447; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4344EB8C; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:08:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:08:55 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Ivan Voras wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > >> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but another >> thing worth taking into account in considering the stability of ZFS is >> whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in Solaris. Last I >> heard, it was still considered an experimental feature there as well. > > Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) My admittedly second-hand understanding is that ZFS shows similarly gratuitous memory use on both Mac OS X and Solaris. One advantage Solaris has is that it runs primarily on expensive 64-bit servers with lots of memory. Part of the problem on FreeBSD is that people run ZFS on sytems with 32-bit CPUs and a lot less memory. It could be that ZFS should be enforcing higher minimum hardware requirements to mount (i.e., refusing to run on systems with 32-bit address spaces or <4gb of memory and inadequate tuning). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:12:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A2816A41A; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:12:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3076B13C467; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:12:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:12:03 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:12:05 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> No, clearly it is not enough > > This looks like we're constantly chasing the "right amount". Does it > depend so much on CPU and IO speed that there's never a generally > sufficient "right amount"? So when CPU and drive speed increase, the new > amount will always be some bigger value? It depends on your workload, which in turn depends on your hardware. The harder you can drive ZFS the more memory it will require. >> (and you claimed previously to have done more tuning than this). > > Where? What else is there except kmem tuning (including KVA_PAGES)? IIRC > Pawel said all other suggested tunings don't do much. Tuning is an interactive process. If 512MB is not enough kmem_map, then increase it. Repeat as necessary. >> I have it set to 600MB on the i386 system with a 1.5GB KVA. Both were >> necessary. > > My point is that the fact that such things are necessary (1.5 GB KVA os > a lot on i386) mean that there are serious problems which aren't getting > fixed since ZFS was imported (that's over 6 months ago). ZFS is a memory hog. There is nothing that can really be done about this, and it is just not a good fit on i386 because of limitations of the hardware architecture. Note that Sun does not recommend using ZFS on a 32-bit system either, for the same reasons. It is unlikely this can really be fixed, although mitigation strategies like the vm_kern.c patch are possible. > I see you've added to http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide; can you > please add the values that work for you to it (especially for KVA_PAGES > since the exact kernel configuration line is never spelled out in the > document; and say for which hardware are the values known to work)? OK. >> ZFS already tells you up front that it's experimental code and likely >> to have problems. > > I know it's experimental, but requiring users to perform so much tuning > just to get it work without crashing will mean it will get a bad > reputation early on. Do you (or anyone) know what are the reasons for > not having vm.kmem_size to 512 MB by default? Increasing vm.kmem_size.max to 512MB by default has other implications, but it is something that should be considered. > Better yet, why not > increase both vm.kmem_size and KVA_PAGES to (the equivalent of) 640 MB > or 768 MB by default for 7.0? That is answered in the tuning guide. Tuning KVA_PAGES by default is not appropriate. > >Users of 7.0-RELEASE should not have unrealistic > > expectations. > > As I've said at the first post of this thread: I'm interested in if it's > ever going to be stable for 7.x. This was in reply to a comment you made about the vm_kern.c patch affecting users of 7.0-RELEASE. Anyway, to sum up, ZFS has known bugs, some of which are unresolved by the authors, and it is difficult to make it work on i386. It is likely that the bugs will be fixed over time (obviously), but amd64 will always be a better choice than i386 for using ZFS because you will not be continually bumping up against the hardware limitations. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:13:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ECD16A46C; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:13:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA2013C4F2; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47810C39.8010302@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:13:29 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henri Hennebert References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780F839.5020200@restart.be> <4780FBE2.8040208@FreeBSD.org> <47810621.8080406@restart.be> In-Reply-To: <47810621.8080406@restart.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Peter Schuller , Ivan Voras , Brooks Davis Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:13:38 -0000 Henri Hennebert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Henri Hennebert wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller wrote: >>>>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by rsync, >>>>>>> for example (speaking from my own experience, and also some of my >>>>>>> colleagues). >>>>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a lot of >>>>>> rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many files / >>>>>> large files) >>>>>> on ZFS without any stability issues. Problems for me have been >>>>>> limited to >>>>>> 32bit and the memory exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. >>>>> >>>>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often hard >>>>> to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, similar >>>>> machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the problem. >>>>> >>>>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. >>>>> >>>>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem related, >>>>> but only once. >>>> >>>> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of stability >>>> problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem panics you >>>> experience. >>> >>> I encounter 2 times a deadlock during high I/O activity (the last one >>> during rsync + rm -r on a 5GB hierarchy (openoffice-2/work). >>> >>> I was running with this patch: >>> http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/patches/zgd_done.patch >>> db> show allpcpu >>> Current CPU: 1 >>> >>> cpuid = 0 >>> curthread = 0xa5ebe440: pid 3422 "txg_thread_enter" >>> curpcb = 0xeb175d90 >>> fpcurthread = none >>> idlethread = 0xa5529aa0: pid 12 "idle: cpu0" >>> APIC ID = 0 >>> currentldt = 0x50 >>> >>> cpuid = 1 >>> curthread = 0xa56ab220: pid 47 "arc_reclaim_thread" >>> curpcb = 0xe6837d90 >>> fpcurthread = none >>> idlethread = 0xa5529880: pid 11 "idle: cpu1" >>> APIC ID = 1 >>> currentldt = 0x50 >>> >>> With the 2 times arc_reclaim_thread `running` >> >> Backtraces of the affected processes (or just alltrace) are usually > > noted for next time > >> required to proceed with debugging, and lock status is also often >> vital (show alllocks, requires witness). > > I add it to my kernel config > > Also, in the case when threads are >> actually running (not deadlocked), then it is often useful to >> repeatedly break/continue and sample many backtraces to try and >> determine where the threads are looping. > > I do this after the second deadlock and arc_reclaim_thread was always > there and second cpu was idle. To repeat, it is important not just to note which thread is running, but *what the thread is doing*. This means repeatedly comparing the backtraces, which will allow you to build up a picture of which part of the code it is looping in. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:20:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E0316A41A; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:20:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710B513C455; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:20:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:20:35 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:20:47 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > >> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >> another thing worth taking into account in considering the stability >> of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in >> Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an experimental >> feature there as well. > > Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) > [Citation needed] From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:21:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB3816A41A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:21:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9F413C468 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:21:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBZBJ-00013z-TC for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:21:05 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:21:05 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:21:05 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:20:52 +0100 Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigBF0E8DBB5E5B643C0C0784B4" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:21:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigBF0E8DBB5E5B643C0C0784B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Better yet, why not >> increase both vm.kmem_size and KVA_PAGES to (the equivalent of) 640 MB= =20 >> or 768 MB by default for 7.0? >=20 > That is answered in the tuning guide. Tuning KVA_PAGES by default is=20 > not appropriate. Ok. I'd like to understand what is the relationship between KVA_PAGES=20 and vm.kmem_size. The tuning guide says: """By default the kernel receives 1GB of the 4GB of address space=20 available on the i386 architecture, and this is used for all of the=20 kernel address space needs, not just the kmem map. By increasing=20 KVA_PAGES you can allocate a larger proportion of the 4GB address=20 space...""" and: """recompile your kernel with increased KVA_PAGES option, to increase=20 the size of the kernel address space, before vm.kmem_size can be=20 increased beyond 512M""" What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? --------------enigBF0E8DBB5E5B643C0C0784B4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgQ36ldnAQVacBcgRArjoAJ4+6LvxL9bOjNOIHLiCA5rs2o99hACfZlBl mQUKsJ1MR9ZyUXbn5EoYyKE= =d0JH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigBF0E8DBB5E5B643C0C0784B4-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:21:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB3B16A46C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:21:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail1-backupmx.mn2.visi.com (lugh.stpaul.visi.com [208.42.42.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD9D13C46E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:21:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail1-backupmx.mn2.visi.com (localhost.visi.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail1-backupmx.mn2.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CEC1120C1 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:02:59 -0600 (CST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on mail1.mn2.visi.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3 Received: from cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (cenn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.9]) by mail1-backupmx.mn2.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:02:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.tcbug.org (mail.tcbug.org [208.42.70.163]) by cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4698106 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:02:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.24.141.6] (unknown [207.229.236.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.tcbug.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D264E214A2DD for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:03:00 -0600 (CST) From: Josh Paetzel To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:02:34 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3726984.iSCzRLiZYO"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801061102.46233.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: Subject: state of 7.0-RC1 on an IBM t60p X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:21:33 -0000 --nextPart3726984.iSCzRLiZYO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I recently installed FBSD 7.0-BETA4 on my laptop in an effort to get workin= g=20 intel 3945abg wireless. I bumped it up to 7.0-RC1 the other day. I've bee= n=20 in a bit of a state health wise and have gotten to the point where i need t= o=20 depend on my laptop, so it has to go back to releng_6, but I thought I'd=20 write out the problems I've been having. 1) wpi is nearly non-functional. It seems to associate best to WPA2 networ= ks,=20 struggles with WEP and won't associate at all to open networks. Once it's= =20 associated it spams the console with "discarding packet without header"=20 and "wpi_cmd: couldn't set tx power" quite a bit, as well as other random=20 output. The real problem I've had with it is that it panics under moderate= =20 data rates, in the 1000-1500K/sec range. 2) pantech px-500 evdo pccard. This thing uses the ucom/umodem driver and= =20 panics after a few seconds of transfer at anything over 30K/sec or so. It= =20 also panics instantly on insertion or removal. I've been unable to get a=20 crash dump or to the debugger for this, my swap is encrypted and seeming ge= ts=20 cleared before savecore runs, and i've been unable to dump to usb swap=20 devices. (The card is a pccard that has a usb controller with a usb-> seri= al=20 adapter on it) 3) sutdown output is garbled. This doesn't seem to hurt anything, but at= =20 some point in shutdown the console messages start interleaving. 4) acpi suspend and resume doesn't work, but that's not a huge shock.l 5) ath generates interrupt storms that are throttled. console output snippet.... wpi0: link state changed to UP wpi0: could not set power mode wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy wpi0: could not set power mode wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 151 not sent, busy wpi0: could not adjust Tx power wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 72 not sent, busy wpi0: link state changed to DOWN wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy wpi0: could not set power mode wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy wpi0: could not set power mode wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 72 not sent, busy wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 16 not sent, busy wpi0: could not configure wpi0: could not send authentication request ath0: mem 0x88000000-0x8800ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on=20 cardbus0 ath0: [ITHREAD] ath0: using obsoleted if_watchdog interface ath0: Ethernet address: 00:1b:2f:5e:fa:d7 ath0: mac 7.9 phy 4.5 radio 5.6 interrupt storm detected on "irq16:"; throttling interrupt source Hopefully soon I'll be in a better position to help debug and troubleshoot= ,=20 for now all I can do is enumerate my issues. dmesg and stuff attached... =2D-=20 Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB --Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="dmesg.boot" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dmesg.boot" Copyright (c) 1992-2008 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Sat Dec 29 12:06:15 CST 2007 jpaetzel@roadrash.tcbug.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T5500 @ 1.66GHz (1661.96-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x6f6 Stepping = 6 Features=0xbfebfbff Features2=0xe39d AMD Features=0x20100000 AMD Features2=0x1 Cores per package: 2 real memory = 1072496640 (1022 MB) avail memory = 1035886592 (987 MB) ACPI APIC Table: FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID: 0 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID: 1 ACPI Warning (tbfadt-0505): Optional field "Gpe1Block" has zero address or length: 0 102C/0 [20070320] ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 1 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard kbd1 at kbdmux0 ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, RF5413) hptrr: HPT RocketRAID controller driver v1.1 (Dec 29 2007 12:04:17) acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: [ITHREAD] acpi_ec0: port 0x62,0x66 on acpi0 acpi0: Power Button (fixed) acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed acpi0: reservation of 100000, 3ff00000 (3) failed Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000 acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x1008-0x100b on acpi0 acpi_hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff on acpi0 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 900 cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 p4tcc0: on cpu0 cpu1: on acpi0 est1: on cpu1 p4tcc1: on cpu1 acpi_lid0: on acpi0 acpi_button0: on acpi0 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: irq 16 at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 vgapci0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xd8000000-0xdfffffff,0xee100000-0xee10ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 pcm0: mem 0xee400000-0xee403fff irq 17 at device 27.0 on pci0 pcm0: [ITHREAD] pcib2: irq 20 at device 28.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 em0: port 0x3000-0x301f mem 0xee000000-0xee01ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci2 em0: Using MSI interrupt em0: Ethernet address: 00:16:41:e5:e1:f8 em0: [FILTER] pcib3: irq 21 at device 28.1 on pci0 pci3: on pcib3 wpi0: mem 0xedf00000-0xedf00fff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci3 bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. bus_dmamem_alloc failed to align memory properly. wpi0: Ethernet address: 00:19:d2:9f:9f:30 wpi0: [ITHREAD] wpi0: 11a rates: 6Mbps 9Mbps 12Mbps 18Mbps 24Mbps 36Mbps 48Mbps 54Mbps wpi0: 11b rates: 1Mbps 2Mbps 5.5Mbps 11Mbps wpi0: 11g rates: 1Mbps 2Mbps 5.5Mbps 11Mbps 6Mbps 9Mbps 12Mbps 18Mbps 24Mbps 36Mbps 48Mbps 54Mbps pcib4: irq 22 at device 28.2 on pci0 pci4: on pcib4 pcib5: irq 23 at device 28.3 on pci0 pci12: on pcib5 uhci0: port 0x1800-0x181f irq 16 at device 29.0 on pci0 uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] uhci0: [ITHREAD] usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: on usb0 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhci1: port 0x1820-0x183f irq 17 at device 29.1 on pci0 uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED] uhci1: [ITHREAD] usb1: on uhci1 usb1: USB revision 1.0 uhub1: on usb1 uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhci2: port 0x1840-0x185f irq 18 at device 29.2 on pci0 uhci2: [GIANT-LOCKED] uhci2: [ITHREAD] usb2: on uhci2 usb2: USB revision 1.0 uhub2: on usb2 uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhci3: port 0x1860-0x187f irq 19 at device 29.3 on pci0 uhci3: [GIANT-LOCKED] uhci3: [ITHREAD] usb3: on uhci3 usb3: USB revision 1.0 uhub3: on usb3 uhub3: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered ehci0: mem 0xee404000-0xee4043ff irq 19 at device 29.7 on pci0 ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] ehci0: [ITHREAD] usb4: EHCI version 1.0 usb4: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2 usb3 usb4: on ehci0 usb4: USB revision 2.0 uhub4: on usb4 uhub4: 8 ports with 8 removable, self powered pcib6: at device 30.0 on pci0 pci21: on pcib6 cbb0: mem 0xe4300000-0xe4300fff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci21 cardbus0: on cbb0 pccard0: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb0 cbb0: [ITHREAD] isab0: at device 31.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0x1880-0x188f at device 31.1 on pci0 ata0: on atapci0 ata0: [ITHREAD] ata1: on atapci0 ata1: [ITHREAD] atapci1: port 0x18c8-0x18cf,0x18ac-0x18af,0x18c0-0x18c7,0x18a8-0x18ab,0x18b0-0x18bf mem 0xee404400-0xee4047ff irq 16 at device 31.2 on pci0 atapci1: [ITHREAD] atapci1: AHCI Version 01.10 controller with 4 ports detected ata2: on atapci1 ata2: [ITHREAD] ata3: on atapci1 ata3: port not implemented ata3: [ITHREAD] ata4: on atapci1 ata4: port not implemented ata4: [ITHREAD] ata5: on atapci1 ata5: port not implemented ata5: [ITHREAD] pci0: at device 31.3 (no driver attached) acpi_tz0: on acpi0 acpi_tz1: on acpi0 atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] atkbd0: [ITHREAD] psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: [ITHREAD] psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 sio0: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled battery0: on acpi0 acpi_acad0: on acpi0 acpi_ibm0: on acpi0 sio0: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled pmtimer0 on isa0 orm0: at iomem 0xd0000-0xd0fff,0xd1000-0xd1fff,0xdc000-0xdffff,0xe0000-0xeffff pnpid ORM0000 on isa0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 8250 or not responding sio0: [FILTER] sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio1: port may not be enabled vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 ugen0: on uhub3 ugen1: on uhub3 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec hptrr: no controller detected. acd0: DVDR at ata0-master UDMA33 ad4: 114473MB at ata2-master SATA150 GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider acd0 is iso9660/300. pcm0: pcm0: SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ad4s3a cryptosoft0: on motherboard GEOM_ELI: Device ad4s4.eli created. GEOM_ELI: Encryption: AES-CBC 128 GEOM_ELI: Crypto: software --Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="loader.conf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="loader.conf" umodem_load="YES" snd_hda_load="YES" acpi_ibm_load="YES" legal.intel_wpi.license_ack=1 if_wpi_load="YES" wlan_load="YES" wlan_amrr_load="YES" firmware_load="YES" wpifw_load="YES" --Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="ROADRASH" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ROADRASH" cpu I686_CPU ident ROADRASH # To statically compile in device wiring instead of /boot/device.hints #hints "GENERIC.hints" # Default places to look for devices. makeoptions DEBUG=-g # Build kernel with gdb(1) debug symbols options SCHED_4BSD # 4BSD scheduler options PREEMPTION # Enable kernel thread preemption options INET # InterNETworking options INET6 # IPv6 communications protocols options SCTP # Stream Control Transmission Protocol options FFS # Berkeley Fast Filesystem options SOFTUPDATES # Enable FFS soft updates support options UFS_ACL # Support for access control lists options UFS_DIRHASH # Improve performance on big directories options UFS_GJOURNAL # Enable gjournal-based UFS journaling options MD_ROOT # MD is a potential root device options NFSCLIENT # Network Filesystem Client options NFSSERVER # Network Filesystem Server options NFS_ROOT # NFS usable as /, requires NFSCLIENT options MSDOSFS # MSDOS Filesystem options CD9660 # ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS # Process filesystem (requires PSEUDOFS) options PSEUDOFS # Pseudo-filesystem framework options GEOM_PART_GPT # GUID Partition Tables. options GEOM_LABEL # Provides labelization options COMPAT_43TTY # BSD 4.3 TTY compat [KEEP THIS!] options COMPAT_FREEBSD4 # Compatible with FreeBSD4 options COMPAT_FREEBSD5 # Compatible with FreeBSD5 options COMPAT_FREEBSD6 # Compatible with FreeBSD6 options SCSI_DELAY=5000 # Delay (in ms) before probing SCSI options KTRACE # ktrace(1) support options SYSVSHM # SYSV-style shared memory options SYSVMSG # SYSV-style message queues options SYSVSEM # SYSV-style semaphores options _KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING # POSIX P1003_1B real-time extensions options KBD_INSTALL_CDEV # install a CDEV entry in /dev options ADAPTIVE_GIANT # Giant mutex is adaptive. options STOP_NMI # Stop CPUS using NMI instead of IPI options AUDIT # Security event auditing # To make an SMP kernel, the next two lines are needed options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel device apic # I/O APIC # CPU frequency control device cpufreq # Bus support. device pci # ATA and ATAPI devices device ata device atadisk # ATA disk drives device atapicd # ATAPI CDROM drives options ATA_STATIC_ID # Static device numbering # SCSI peripherals device scbus # SCSI bus (required for SCSI) device da # Direct Access (disks) device cd # CD device pass # Passthrough device (direct SCSI access) # atkbdc0 controls both the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse device atkbdc # AT keyboard controller device atkbd # AT keyboard device psm # PS/2 mouse device kbdmux # keyboard multiplexer device vga # VGA video card driver device splash # Splash screen and screen saver support # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc device agp # support several AGP chipsets # Power management support (see NOTES for more options) #device apm # Add suspend/resume support for the i8254. device pmtimer # PCCARD (PCMCIA) support # PCMCIA and cardbus bridge support device cbb # cardbus (yenta) bridge device pccard # PC Card (16-bit) bus device cardbus # CardBus (32-bit) bus # Serial (COM) ports device sio # 8250, 16[45]50 based serial ports device uart # Generic UART driver # PCI Ethernet NICs. device em # Intel PRO/1000 adapter Gigabit Ethernet Card # Wireless NIC cards device wlan # 802.11 support device wlan_wep # 802.11 WEP support device wlan_ccmp # 802.11 CCMP support device wlan_tkip # 802.11 TKIP support device wlan_amrr # AMRR transmit rate control algorithm device wlan_scan_ap # 802.11 AP mode scanning device wlan_scan_sta # 802.11 STA mode scanning device ath # Atheros pci/cardbus NIC's device ath_hal # Atheros HAL (Hardware Access Layer) device ath_rate_sample # SampleRate tx rate control for ath # Pseudo devices. device loop # Network loopback device random # Entropy device device ether # Ethernet support device sl # Kernel SLIP device ppp # Kernel PPP device tun # Packet tunnel. device pty # Pseudo-ttys (telnet etc) device md # Memory "disks" device gif # IPv6 and IPv4 tunneling device faith # IPv6-to-IPv4 relaying (translation) device firmware # firmware assist module # The `bpf' device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter. # Be aware of the administrative consequences of enabling this! # Note that 'bpf' is required for DHCP. device bpf # Berkeley packet filter # USB support device uhci # UHCI PCI->USB interface device ohci # OHCI PCI->USB interface device ehci # EHCI PCI->USB interface (USB 2.0) device usb # USB Bus (required) #device udbp # USB Double Bulk Pipe devices device ugen # Generic device uhid # "Human Interface Devices" device ukbd # Keyboard device ulpt # Printer device umass # Disks/Mass storage - Requires scbus and da device ums # Mouse options KDB options KDB_TRACE --Boundary-01=_rmQgHSVm+OsIfEZ-- --nextPart3726984.iSCzRLiZYO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHgQm2JvkB8SevrssRApsdAJ4mXr8em02p4Zu3AyuzxgtPekePyQCeMEvZ /vIjT94eOfwx1UBJGHuBGDg= =fY4/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3726984.iSCzRLiZYO-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:28:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90A516A419 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4A913C44B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBZIm-0001S4-P9 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:28:48 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:28:48 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:28:48 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:28:30 +0100 Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig601868FFD7E993E6262A8244" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:28:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig601868FFD7E993E6262A8244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Watson wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Ivan Voras wrote: >> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >=20 > My admittedly second-hand understanding is that ZFS shows similarly=20 > gratuitous memory use on both Mac OS X and Solaris. One advantage=20 > Solaris has is that it runs primarily on expensive 64-bit servers with = > lots of memory. Part of the problem on FreeBSD is that people run ZFS = > on sytems with 32-bit CPUs and a lot less memory. It could be that ZFS= =20 > should be enforcing higher minimum hardware requirements to mount (i.e.= ,=20 > refusing to run on systems with 32-bit address spaces or <4gb of memory= =20 > and inadequate tuning). Solaris nowadays refuses to install on anything without at least 1 GB of = memory. I'm all for ZFS refusing to run on inadequatly tuned hardware,=20 but apparently there's no algorithmic way to say what *is* adequately=20 tuned, except for "try X and if it crashes, try Y, repeat as necessary". The reason why I'm arguing this topic is that it isn't a matter of=20 tuning like "it will run slowly if you don't tune it" - it's more like=20 "it won't run at all if you don't go through the laborious=20 trial-and-error process of tuning it, including patching your kernel and = running a non-GENERIC configuration". --------------enig601868FFD7E993E6262A8244 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgQ+/ldnAQVacBcgRAtnAAKCtMumii9wevIzasHr8NZ6x5aGQ2ACcDmBf Nqzn2r1T/d1ngFr8i4tyZHU= =PAma -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig601868FFD7E993E6262A8244-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:34:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4833216A417; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:34:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BB813C442; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:34:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:34:52 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:34:58 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? Everything else that the kernel needs address space for. Buffer cache, mbuf allocation, etc. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:36:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FE916A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:36:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F01213C46E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:36:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBZQJ-0001oS-1q for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:36:35 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:36:35 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:36:35 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:36:24 +0100 Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCF28DF68F34EF7BB67EC6EA2" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:36:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCF28DF68F34EF7BB67EC6EA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: >> Robert Watson wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but=20 >>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the stability = >>> of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in=20 >>> Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an experimental=20 >>> feature there as well. >> >> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >=20 > [Citation needed] I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you don't=20 hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris with ZFS=20 and *it didn't crash*!" often. But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them=20 obviously irrelevant * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small=20 number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but it's = a large number in any case. I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is larger=20 than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. --------------enigCF28DF68F34EF7BB67EC6EA2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgRGYldnAQVacBcgRAl22AKCNn8JJNdP7fYk3PNsnRhSGdwEn7gCfYUHc clThYOP6zkJD3wFZrFqFHXc= =Et/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCF28DF68F34EF7BB67EC6EA2-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 17:43:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76A16A418; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C427713C465; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:43:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47811336.4060605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:43:18 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:43:27 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Ivan Voras wrote: > >>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >> >> My admittedly second-hand understanding is that ZFS shows similarly >> gratuitous memory use on both Mac OS X and Solaris. One advantage >> Solaris has is that it runs primarily on expensive 64-bit servers with >> lots of memory. Part of the problem on FreeBSD is that people run ZFS >> on sytems with 32-bit CPUs and a lot less memory. It could be that >> ZFS should be enforcing higher minimum hardware requirements to mount >> (i.e., refusing to run on systems with 32-bit address spaces or <4gb >> of memory and inadequate tuning). > > Solaris nowadays refuses to install on anything without at least 1 GB of > memory. I'm all for ZFS refusing to run on inadequatly tuned hardware, > but apparently there's no algorithmic way to say what *is* adequately > tuned, except for "try X and if it crashes, try Y, repeat as necessary". What you appear to be still missing is that ZFS also causes memory exhaustion panics when run on 32-bit Solaris. In fact (unless they have since fixed it), the opensolaris ZFS code makes *absolutely no attempt* to accomodate i386 memory limitations at all. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:00:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D419716A41A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:00:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969D213C467 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:00:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBZnR-0003C2-2a for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:00:29 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:00:29 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:00:29 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:00:10 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> <47811336.4060605@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig0A3831A65593ADD3330D3F5D" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <47811336.4060605@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:00:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig0A3831A65593ADD3330D3F5D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > What you appear to be still missing is that ZFS also causes memory=20 > exhaustion panics when run on 32-bit Solaris.=20 Citation needed. I'm interested. --------------enig0A3831A65593ADD3330D3F5D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgRcqldnAQVacBcgRAqiCAKDYA86boV1pvgRfvuZZtppnVuxWyACgq30c 0ZqL8GfJSoOGiutpQHA1S+U= =ZNrd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig0A3831A65593ADD3330D3F5D-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:09:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2908A16A417; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:09:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3647F13C43E; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:09:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47811967.3050906@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:09:43 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> <47811336.4060605@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:09:50 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> What you appear to be still missing is that ZFS also causes memory >> exhaustion panics when run on 32-bit Solaris. > > Citation needed. I'm interested. > Reports on the zfs-discuss mailing list. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:10:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4636716A418; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:10:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8859513C46A; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:10:51 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:10:58 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Ivan Voras wrote: >>> Robert Watson wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >>>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the stability >>>> of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in >>>> Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an experimental >>>> feature there as well. >>> >>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >> >> [Citation needed] > > I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you don't > hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris with ZFS > and *it didn't crash*!" often. > > But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: > > * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them > obviously irrelevant > * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small > number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but it's > a large number in any case. > > I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is larger > than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. Almost all Solaris systems are 64 bit. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:26:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C08E16A468 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBF313C45D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:26:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBaCJ-0004UM-8D for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:26:11 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:26:11 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:26:11 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:25:50 +0100 Lines: 37 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF2FA9CF3EA05E3277142F2EC" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:26:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF2FA9CF3EA05E3277142F2EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone still = have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented in = http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? I'm interested in reports like this:=20 http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/freebsd-current/2007/9/21/271557 (note = that this report is for an untuned system). --------------enigF2FA9CF3EA05E3277142F2EC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgR00ldnAQVacBcgRAsHuAJ9BcMeFX5lyB7gNUf3ztkKlPndhgwCgnf77 msaT78vTslNOzCv3sCVD/Kk= =GBVC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF2FA9CF3EA05E3277142F2EC-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:30:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4C416A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:30:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pphajek@lbl.gov) Received: from india.jgi-psf.org (india.jgi-psf.org [198.129.90.139]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D92613C4E5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:30:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pphajek@lbl.gov) Received: from india.jgi-psf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by india.jgi-psf.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m06HwsJH005889 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:58:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pphajek@lbl.gov) Received: (from phajek@localhost) by india.jgi-psf.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m06HwsAd005888 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:58:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pphajek@lbl.gov) X-Authentication-Warning: india.jgi-psf.org: phajek set sender to pphajek@lbl.gov using -f Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:58:54 -0800 From: Patrick Hajek To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080106175854.GB5659@lbl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:30:54 -0000 > I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but > another thing worth taking into account in considering the stability of ZFS is > whether or not Sun considers it a production feature in Solaris. Last I heard, > it was still considered an experimental feature there as well. It was not production ready for solaris until they included it the quarterly release of Solaris 10-- appox a year ago. -Patrick -- Patrick Hajek /"\ DOE Joint Genome Institute \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN Desk: 925.296.5762 X HELP CURE HTML MAIL Cell: 925.997.4826 / \ PGP Fingerprint 688E B579 3449 28B1 DB14 E15A 76BB C1CA A745 9DAB From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:34:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F0716A469 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6789013C43E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so4855862fgg.35 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:34:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=euuFTvI3oxrbGPC95tT98YmTxdbAnDF7u47AhXIrjOM=; b=F52QjNPyyHj+pYIu/IyZNgm3tlxo2GdjCsv+ezafOwLHubMUKwzrrvefrhCXo2DeNxTZ0rbwOX4qKg6mqiuMq+2MQeJugRnmFLdzd4Z2a3nK8LXuoBkHCKiOgq9w9ZYVjiJ42qBkSDTVFkf7GeprZ7LyX0A/wRX91ekE2YBgyTs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SYGgWBHpgXnWCHb+Gn0cWnlyIdkQ/rxgv93umHnWmc3oeIaYhaxjr2nNUi+Aot+w6bLbXAh0V6LZYOlHH9mm2j86i4jtuWFOCCZq36k629CW6TGzBAR0o8MU14JHw1jdAtrmfXLdOqYeaYlp3yTtwMAzmg/rtVcg+lI7YDXzT3k= Received: by 10.86.66.1 with SMTP id o1mr19246461fga.36.1199644441034; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:34:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:34:00 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: Darran In-Reply-To: <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:34:03 -0000 On 1/6/08, Darran wrote: > Hello all, > > I downloaded, burnt and installed 7.0-RC1 (all torrent) on amd64 > I downloaded the dell windows drivers for my laptop wireless card (which > worked on i3686 6.2-RELEASE) and used ndisgen to create the .ko file > (bcmwl5_sys.ko) and loaded it and then realised I had created the 32 bit > driver so I re-did it and used the 64 bit file and loaded the 64bit .ko and > at that point my laptop (Dell Vostro 1000) hung. > I had put bcmwl5_sys_load="YES" in the loader.conf file > I rebooted and now I don't get anything. As soon as it starts to boot it > stops. > There is a screen showing kernel dump info and I can copy it if needed but I > have to burn the rescue iso otherwise I cant boot. > > Is this a known problem ? > Does anyone have any advice ? > If you have bcmwl5_sys_load in your loader.conf, this is causing the 32bit driver to load at boot, bcmwl563_sys_load needs to be placed in loader.conf for the 64 bit driver. To boot your system without the rescue CD, at the boot menu choose "Escape to loader prompt". Then use "unload" to unload all modules, and "unset bcmwl5_sys" to disable loading of the bcmwl5_sys module. Finally, use "boot" to continue booting. When the system has finished booting, check /boot/loader.conf, does it have bcmwl5_sys_load or bcmwl564_sys_load? Also check that you placed the 64bit driver in your module path, and removed the 32bit driver from the module path. Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 18:49:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B5E16A418 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:49:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1AAD13C457 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:49:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBaYv-0005gn-8q for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:49:33 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:49:33 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:49:33 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:49:17 +0100 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <20080106170452.L105@fledge.watson.org> <47811336.4060605@FreeBSD.org> <47811967.3050906@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig3EB635B71F4C09B8E6DDE3BC" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <47811967.3050906@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:49:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig3EB635B71F4C09B8E6DDE3BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >>> What you appear to be still missing is that ZFS also causes memory=20 >>> exhaustion panics when run on 32-bit Solaris.=20 >> >> Citation needed. I'm interested. >=20 > Reports on the zfs-discuss mailing list. Thanks for the pointer. I'm looking at the archives. So far I've found this:=20 http://www.archivum.info/zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org/2007-07/msg00016.htm= l=20 which doesn't mention panics; and this:=20 http://www.archivum.info/zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org/2007-07/msg00054.htm= l=20 which didn't get any replies but the backtrace doesn't include anything=20 resembling a malloc-like call. --------------enig3EB635B71F4C09B8E6DDE3BC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgSKzldnAQVacBcgRAkGmAKCDYOMbWXcSSaJtuWo7YS8MjSNlcwCePKAq 9q/fY9HjXfbs5Q7jXAgBjuM= =W2hT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig3EB635B71F4C09B8E6DDE3BC-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 19:07:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD6116A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:07:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcorcoran@rcn.com) Received: from smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6250A13C442; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:07:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcorcoran@rcn.com) Received: from mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.157.28]) by smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 06 Jan 2008 13:38:44 -0500 Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net (MOS 3.8.6-GA) with ESMTP id JNE00144; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-55-230.c3-0.tlg-ubr5.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com (HELO [10.56.78.161]) ([207.172.55.230]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 06 Jan 2008 13:37:42 -0500 Message-ID: <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:48:27 -0500 From: Gary Corcoran User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Whitelist: YES (by domain whitelist at mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:07:33 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >>> No, clearly it is not enough >> >> This looks like we're constantly chasing the "right amount". Does it >> depend so much on CPU and IO speed that there's never a generally >> sufficient "right amount"? So when CPU and drive speed increase, the >> new amount will always be some bigger value? > > It depends on your workload, which in turn depends on your hardware. The > harder you can drive ZFS the more memory it will require. As a user, I would expect the above to mean "to continue running quickly". If it has to slow to a crawl for a moment, due to inadequate memory in your system, then that's just tough cookies. But crashing (panicing) is not really acceptable for most people (maybe except a developer). Again from a user perspective, if ZFS needs "tuning" to run at full speed, or even at all, I would expect *it* to be able to do a few simple calculations and do the tuning itself! :-) (even if, in worst case, it requires a clean shutdown and reboot for the new values to take effect) The above is not meant as a criticism of the current explicitly-labeled "experimental" code. Rather, it is what I would hope we might be able to see sometime over the next year... >>> (and you claimed previously to have done more tuning than this). >> >> Where? What else is there except kmem tuning (including KVA_PAGES)? >> IIRC Pawel said all other suggested tunings don't do much. > > Tuning is an interactive process. If 512MB is not enough kmem_map, then > increase it. Repeat as necessary. > >>> I have it set to 600MB on the i386 system with a 1.5GB KVA. Both >>> were necessary. >> >> My point is that the fact that such things are necessary (1.5 GB KVA >> os a lot on i386) mean that there are serious problems which aren't >> getting fixed since ZFS was imported (that's over 6 months ago). > > ZFS is a memory hog. There is nothing that can really be done about > this, and it is just not a good fit on i386 because of limitations of > the hardware architecture. Note that Sun does not recommend using ZFS > on a 32-bit system either, for the same reasons. It is unlikely this > can really be fixed, although mitigation strategies like the vm_kern.c > patch are possible. Perhaps the 7.0 release notes should include a note to the effect that ZFS is *strongly* NOT RECOMMENDED on 32-bit systems at this time, due to the likelihood of panics. I say this because it sure sounds like "out of the box" that is what you're most likely to end up with, and even with manual "corrections" you may still have panics. So why not just be upfront about it and tell people that, at least at this time, ZFS is only recommended for 64-bit systems, with a minimum of "N" (2?) GB of memory? If you were already planning something like this for the release notes, my apologies. >> I see you've added to http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide; can you >> please add the values that work for you to it (especially for >> KVA_PAGES since the exact kernel configuration line is never spelled >> out in the document; and say for which hardware are the values known >> to work)? > > OK. > >>> ZFS already tells you up front that it's experimental code and likely >>> to have problems. >> >> I know it's experimental, but requiring users to perform so much >> tuning just to get it work without crashing will mean it will get a >> bad reputation early on. Do you (or anyone) know what are the reasons >> for not having vm.kmem_size to 512 MB by default? > > Increasing vm.kmem_size.max to 512MB by default has other implications, > but it is something that should be considered. > > > Better yet, why not >> increase both vm.kmem_size and KVA_PAGES to (the equivalent of) 640 MB >> or 768 MB by default for 7.0? > > That is answered in the tuning guide. Tuning KVA_PAGES by default is > not appropriate. > >> >Users of 7.0-RELEASE should not have unrealistic >> > expectations. >> >> As I've said at the first post of this thread: I'm interested in if >> it's ever going to be stable for 7.x. > > This was in reply to a comment you made about the vm_kern.c patch > affecting users of 7.0-RELEASE. > > Anyway, to sum up, ZFS has known bugs, some of which are unresolved by > the authors, and it is difficult to make it work on i386. It is likely > that the bugs will be fixed over time (obviously), but amd64 will always > be a better choice than i386 for using ZFS because you will not be > continually bumping up against the hardware limitations. BTW, I am a happy user of ZFS on a 2GB Core2Duo 64-bit system. I never did any "tuning", it "just worked" for my light-duty file serving needs. This was from the (I believe) May 2007 snapshot. Gary From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 19:56:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991F016A46B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:56:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: from 30.mail-out.ovh.net (30.mail-out.ovh.net [213.186.62.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B41013C442 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: (qmail 31368 invoked by uid 503); 6 Jan 2008 19:56:50 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 06 Jan 2008 19:56:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail139.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 30.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 19:56:50 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 19:56:32 -0000 Received: from 217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl (HELO arsenic) (maciej@suszko.eu@217.153.241.141) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 19:56:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:56:23 +0100 From: Maciej Suszko To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080106205623.d1024ae6.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <4781002F.5020708@FreeBSD.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <20080106144627.a91a62c1.maciej@suszko.eu> <4780F7C0.5010101@FreeBSD.org> <20080106170544.93f7ab1b.maciej@suszko.eu> <4781002F.5020708@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Ovh-Remote: 217.153.241.141 (217-153-241-141.zab.nat.hnet.pl) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.500019/N Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:56:32 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Maciej Suszko wrote: > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> Maciej Suszko wrote: > >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: > >>>> Ivan Voras wrote: > >>>>> On 06/01/2008, Peter Schuller > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> This number is not so large. It seems to be easily crashed by > >>>>>>> rsync, for example (speaking from my own experience, and also > >>>>>>> some of my colleagues). > >>>>>> I can definitely say this is not *generally* true, as I do a > >>>>>> lot of rsyncing/rdiff-backup:ing and similar stuff (with many > >>>>>> files / large files) on ZFS without any stability issues. > >>>>>> Problems for me have been limited to 32bit and the memory > >>>>>> exhaustion issue rather than "hard" issues. > >>>>> It's not generally true since kmem problems with rsync are often > >>>>> hard to repeat - I have them on one machine, but not on another, > >>>>> similar machine. This nonrepeatability is also a part of the > >>>>> problem. > >>>>> > >>>>>> But perhaps that's all you are referring to. > >>>>> Mostly. I did have a ZFS crash with rsync that wasn't kmem > >>>>> related, but only once. > >>>> kmem problems are just tuning. They are not indicative of > >>>> stability problems in ZFS. Please report any further non-kmem > >>>> panics you experience. > >>> I agree that ZFS is pretty stable itself. I use 32bit machine with > >>> 2gigs od RAM and all hang cases are kmem related, but the fact is > >>> that I haven't found any way of tuning to stop it crashing. When I > >>> do some rsyncing, especially beetwen different pools - it hangs or > >>> reboots - mostly on bigger files (i.e. rsyncing ports tree with > >>> distfiles). At the moment I patched the kernel with > >>> vm_kern.c.2.patch and it just stopped crashing, but from time to > >>> time the machine looks like beeing freezed for a second or two, > >>> after that it works normally. Have you got any similar experience? > >> That is expected. That patch makes the system do more work to try > >> and reclaim memory when it would previously have panicked from lack > >> of memory. However, the same advice applies as to Ivan: you should > >> try and tune the memory parameters better to avoid this last-ditch > >> sitation. > > > > As Ivan said - tuning kmem_size only delay the moment system crash, > > earlier or after it happens - that's my point of view. > > So the same question applies: exactly what steps did you take to tune > the memory parameters? Extracting this information from you guys > shouldn't be as hard as this :) I was playing around with kmem_max_size mainly. I suppose messing up with KVA_PAGES is not a good idea unless you exactly know how much memory you software consume... -- regards, Maciej Suszko. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 20:25:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15B916A418 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kometen@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.244]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4CD13C467 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kometen@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c14so1545512anc.13 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:25:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=8Wt3RV0dR3Gd/DRYltjriEImDVmjU6DYIoQpGYiMemU=; b=uMDXwH9Z6LT39DrCO0x2aXIAOCCKsXOUxZqk4QKhK07y9tTlmm4cpXDzIHS/Xpk36pzqY993ywAg88ehX0OxBCAyzK51a+NrUWvw5SkU1cPwBFIKHj+tuCd+TR25vLMgvL13faA7CErLP1uYzPepN0nAM5+QprP2p9Mffs8hgjo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=B2PTTqTdakQH4bAN35pRuFZPOnDdnC00QiXKlc89/rsvJDedGJ7W6JPQrqnUq8Sh1Ai5KNPcvolyXPkR/sb4z4dGH9j7mJ4SgKoHT3kziR+l+8xS0tdy/rSt9Zq/h6wteCfmximkqgahSx67Lq/PkKbvcjTkxNDK50LphXDijIA= Received: by 10.100.128.20 with SMTP id a20mr17442485and.109.1199649635643; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.242.10 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:00:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:00:35 +0100 From: "Claus Guttesen" To: "Ivan Voras" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:25:32 -0000 > >> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) > > > > [Citation needed] > > I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you don't > hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris with ZFS > and *it didn't crash*!" often. > > But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: > > * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them > obviously irrelevant > * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small > number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but it's > a large number in any case. > > I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is larger > than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. I used zfs on FreeBSD current amd64 around summer 2006 as a samba-server for internal use on a dual xeon (first generation 64-bit, somewhat slow and hot) with 4 GB ram and two qlogic hba's attached to approx. 8 TB of storage. I did not once experience any kernel panic or other unplanned stop. But I whenever I manually mounted a smbfs-share the terminal would not return to the command line. I upgraded in october 2007 and the smbfs-mount returned to the command line and I thought I was happy. Until I started to get the kmem_map too small kernel-panics when doing much I/O (syncing 40 GB of small files). I tuned the values as indicated in the zfs tuning guide and rebooted and increased the values as the kernel panics persisted. When I increased the values even more I ended up with a kernel which refused to boot, boy I was almost getting a panic myself :-) Applying Pawel's patch did make the server survive two or three 40 GB rsyncing so the patch did help. But we were approching xmas season which is a very critical time for us so I migrated to solaris 10. The solaris server has had no downtime but to conclude that solaris is more stable in my situation is premature. -- regards Claus When lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom, the gentlest gamester is the soonest winner. Shakespeare From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 20:30:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871FE16A417; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:30:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541B613C447; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:30:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07FD770D4; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:30:33 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:30:32 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart5240114.PTpqoRGpdc"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801062130.40755.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Ivan Voras Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:30:36 -0000 --nextPart5240114.PTpqoRGpdc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone still > have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented in > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? Not sure if you wanted negatives, but I have not seen such crashes on any o= f=20 the three amd64 systems I'm running ZFS on (3 gb, 4 gb and 4 gb of RAM). Th= e=20 only tuning done is to increase the kmem size and arc_max and disabling=20 prefetch. The increase in kmem was not to avoid crashes, but was to=20 accomodate the larger arc_max chosen. =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart5240114.PTpqoRGpdc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHgTpwDNor2+l1i30RAkhCAJ90OJp+jDb5RLy9xbn7gahBx0DBjgCeMTGb sZSjzxZgvaEme7z8yFQfJhQ= =4Xpl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart5240114.PTpqoRGpdc-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:01:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1CC16A41B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:01:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62ACD13C455 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:01:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBccB-0003yF-R3 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:01:03 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:01:03 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:01:03 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:00:47 +0100 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <200801062130.40755.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5A55C2134572116F91A85FF5" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <200801062130.40755.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:01:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5A55C2134572116F91A85FF5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Schuller wrote: >> In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone sti= ll >> have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented = in >> http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? >=20 > Not sure if you wanted negatives, but I have not seen such crashes on a= ny of=20 All reports are welcome :) > the three amd64 systems I'm running ZFS on (3 gb, 4 gb and 4 gb of RAM)= =2E The=20 > only tuning done is to increase the kmem size and arc_max and disabling= =20 > prefetch. The increase in kmem was not to avoid crashes, but was to=20 > accomodate the larger arc_max chosen. This is somewhat a special case - you also did tuning besides kmem size. = I'm especially interested in this, hoping to gather the "combination=20 that works" from the reports. --------------enig5A55C2134572116F91A85FF5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgUGFldnAQVacBcgRAo9eAKDcTZ82c+08ijQwHhqI6tjp3Oc2oACg+0Yr Rqf+7GZZVMSm7o/llxHdJsA= =EO+h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5A55C2134572116F91A85FF5-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:20:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C286516A421; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E80513C448; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m06L0GB7096862; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:00:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:00:16 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:00:17 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:20:52 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>> Robert Watson wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >>>>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the >>>>> stability of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production >>>>> feature in Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an >>>>> experimental feature there as well. >>>> >>>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >>> >>> [Citation needed] >> >> I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you don't >> hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris with ZFS >> and *it didn't crash*!" often. >> >> But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: >> >> * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them >> obviously irrelevant >> * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small >> number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but >> it's a large number in any case. >> >> I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is >> larger than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. > > Almost all Solaris systems are 64 bit. > > Kris So, let's be honest here. ZFS is simply unreliable on FreeBSD/i386. There are things that you can do mitigate the problems, and in certain well controlled environments you might be able to make it work well enough for your needs. But as a general rule, don't expect it to work reliably, period. This is backed up by Sun's own recommendation to not run it on 32-bit Solaris. But let's also be honest about ZFS in the 64-bit world. There is ample evidence that ZFS basically wants to grow unbounded in proportion to the workload that you give it. Indeed, even Sun recommends basically throwing more RAM at most problems. Again, tuning is often needed, and I think it's fair to say that it can't be expected to work on arbitrary workloads out of the box. Now, what about the other problems that have been reported in this thread by Ivan and others? I don't think that it can be said that the only problem that ZFS has is with memory. Unfortunately, it looks like these "other" problems aren't well quantified, so I think that they are being unfairly dismissed. But at the same time, maybe these other problems are rare and unique enough that they represent very special cases that won't be encountered by most people. But it also tells me that ZFS is still immature, at least in FreeBSD. The universal need for tuning combined with the poorly understood problem reports tells me that administrators considering ZFS should expect to spend a fair amount of timing testing and tuning. Don't expect it to work out of the box for your situation. That's not to say that it's useless; there are certainly many people who can attest to it working well for them. Just be prepared to spend time and possibly money making it work, and be willing to provide good problem reports for any non-memory related problems that you encounter. Scott From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 20:57:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D270B16A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadimnuclight@tpu.ru) Received: from relay1.tpu.ru (relay1.tpu.ru [213.183.112.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8EA13C448 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadimnuclight@tpu.ru) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by relay1.tpu.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F595104816; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:57:02 +0600 (NOVT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tpu.ru Received: from relay1.tpu.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (relay1.tpu.ru [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VYCAciAu0sG; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:56:59 +0600 (NOVT) Received: from mail.main.tpu.ru (mail.main.tpu.ru [10.0.0.3]) by relay1.tpu.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5834010478C; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:56:59 +0600 (NOVT) Received: from mail.tpu.ru ([213.183.112.105]) by mail.main.tpu.ru with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:56:58 +0600 Received: from nuclight.avtf.net ([78.140.2.250]) by mail.tpu.ru over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:56:57 +0600 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:56:53 +0600 To: "Kris Kennaway" References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> From: "Vadim Goncharov" Organization: AVTF TPU Hostel Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=koi8-r MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jan 2008 20:56:57.0661 (UTC) FILETIME=[ACF54ED0:01C850A6] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:26:26 +0000 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:57:05 -0000 06.01.08 @ 23:34 Kris Kennaway wrote: >> What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? > > Everything else that the kernel needs address space for. Buffer cache, > mbuf allocation, etc. Aren't they allocated from the same memory zones? I have a router with 256 Mb RAM, it had a panic with ng_nat once due to exhausted kmem. So, what these number from it's sysctl do really mean? vm.kmem_size: 83415040 vm.kmem_size_max: 335544320 vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 vm.kvm_size: 1073737728 vm.kvm_free: 704638976 -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:32:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F5516A419; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:32:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B703913C4D9; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:32:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:32:45 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Long References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:32:48 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Ivan Voras wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>>> Robert Watson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >>>>>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the >>>>>> stability of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production >>>>>> feature in Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an >>>>>> experimental feature there as well. >>>>> >>>>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >>>> >>>> [Citation needed] >>> >>> I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you >>> don't hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris >>> with ZFS and *it didn't crash*!" often. >>> >>> But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: >>> >>> * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them >>> obviously irrelevant >>> * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small >>> number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but >>> it's a large number in any case. >>> >>> I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is >>> larger than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. >> >> Almost all Solaris systems are 64 bit. >> >> Kris > > So, let's be honest here. ZFS is simply unreliable on FreeBSD/i386. > There are things that you can do mitigate the problems, and in certain > well controlled environments you might be able to make it work well > enough for your needs. But as a general rule, don't expect it to work > reliably, period. This is backed up by Sun's own recommendation to not > run it on 32-bit Solaris. > > But let's also be honest about ZFS in the 64-bit world. There is ample > evidence that ZFS basically wants to grow unbounded in proportion to the > workload that you give it. Indeed, even Sun recommends basically > throwing more RAM at most problems. Again, tuning is often needed, and > I think it's fair to say that it can't be expected to work on arbitrary > workloads out of the box. > > Now, what about the other problems that have been reported in this > thread by Ivan and others? I don't think that it can be said that the > only problem that ZFS has is with memory. Unfortunately, it looks like > these "other" problems aren't well quantified, so I think that they are > being unfairly dismissed. But at the same time, maybe these other > problems are rare and unique enough that they represent very special > cases that won't be encountered by most people. But it also tells me > that ZFS is still immature, at least in FreeBSD. > > The universal need for tuning combined with the poorly understood > problem reports tells me that administrators considering ZFS should > expect to spend a fair amount of timing testing and tuning. Don't > expect it to work out of the box for your situation. That's not to > say that it's useless; there are certainly many people who can attest to > it working well for them. Just be prepared to spend time and possibly > money making it work, and be willing to provide good problem reports for > any non-memory related problems that you encounter. To be clear, in this thread I have been mostly restricting myself to discussion of kmem problems only, although I have also noted that there are known ZFS bugs including bugs that are unfixed even in solaris (the ZIL low memory deadlock is one of them). Indeed, pjd has a long list of bug reports from me :) I agree with the rest of this summary. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:33:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A20516A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from morten@lightworkings.dk) Received: from mail.tobocom.net (mail.tobocom.net [89.221.166.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9984A13C4EE for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:33:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from morten@lightworkings.dk) Received: from atlantis.local ([85.80.153.38]) by mail.tobocom.net with hMailServer ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:09 +0100 Message-ID: <47814912.8090704@lightworkings.dk> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:33:06 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?TW9ydGVuIFN0csOlcnVw?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:33:18 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, > > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone > still have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as > presented in http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? > > I'm interested in reports like this: > http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/freebsd-current/2007/9/21/271557 > (note that this report is for an untuned system). > > > > Yes, I've had one such crash. The machine has 4GB of RAM and initially I set it up with vm.kmem_size and vm.kmem_size_max set to 1024M. It's my home fileserver and I'm the only regular user. After booting the box I had tested the transfer speed back and forth over the net and after that not really used it any more that day. The next day I discovered that it had crashed sometime during the night. I've since changed the two tuneables above to 1536M and I've not had any crashes since. I also tried with 2048M but that only resulted in a crash upon boot. Kind regards Morten StrÃ¥rup From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:42:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFFD16A420 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (pointyhat.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::2b]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C224613C474; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:42:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:42:43 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vadim Goncharov References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:42:45 -0000 Vadim Goncharov wrote: > 06.01.08 @ 23:34 Kris Kennaway wrote: > >>> What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? >> >> Everything else that the kernel needs address space for. Buffer >> cache, mbuf allocation, etc. > > Aren't they allocated from the same memory zones? I have a router with > 256 Mb RAM, it had a panic with ng_nat once due to exhausted kmem. So, > what these number from it's sysctl do really mean? > > vm.kmem_size: 83415040 > vm.kmem_size_max: 335544320 > vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 > vm.kvm_size: 1073737728 > vm.kvm_free: 704638976 > I believe that mbufs are allocated from a separate map. In your case you only have ~80MB available in your kmem_map, which is used for malloc() in the kernel. It is possible that ng_nat in combination with the other kernel malloc usage exhausted this relatively small amount of space without mbuf use being a factor. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:51:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7C116A46C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:51:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from qsrv03sl.mx.bigpond.com (qsrv03sl.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.92.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E8613C4EC for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:51:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080106204241.ZYTK6742.omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:42:41 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080106204241.VHGW25607.oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:42:41 +0000 Received: (qmail 32906 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2008 20:42:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 20:42:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:42:09 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: Danny Braniss Message-ID: <20080107074209.5c20f083@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: References: <477C82F0.5060809@freebsd.org> <863ateemw2.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801032200.25650.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <8663yac62d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <477E72FC.5070304@freebsd.org> <477EA466.6060204@FreeBSD.org> <477EFEAB.8090807@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8@freebsd.o?=, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rg, Jason Evans , ?= Tim Kientzle , rgrav , Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:51:16 -0000 On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:56:32 +0200 Danny Braniss wrote: > what Apple has is one file, that will run the appropiate binary if run > on an i386 or a ppc, not 2 different files - universal binary - not rosetta. Sure, but that's got a bunch of different driving factors. I don't know, for example, whether you can build a four-way executable (ia32, x86_64, ppc, ppc64). Well, you probably can, but I'd be a bit surprised if anyone has. FreeBSD supports even more architectures: it just doesn't scale. The best bet for something that has to run everywhere is probably LLVM or TNEF. The advantage that Unix has over MacOS is that we aren't trying to squeeze everything into single "application" directories. So it's reasonable to have "share", and select executables on the basis of PATH. That's how it has worked before. Most sites don't have more than two or three different architectures to support, anyway. If we do get much further with multi-architecture bin and lib, and people actively use these on diskless setups or multi-architecture hosts (amd64/ia32, or other 64/32 bit combinations being the most common) then perhaps it would be nice to have a share/bin where platform-independent scripts (shell, perl, python) as well as dynamic-translated binaries (JVM, LLVM, etc) can live? Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 21:57:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A0916A418; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from sippysoft.com (gk.360sip.com [72.236.70.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF1413C4CC; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:57:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([204.244.149.125]) (authenticated bits=0) by sippysoft.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m06Lvkde048475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:57:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:56:59 -0800 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Sippy Software, Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Corcoran References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> In-Reply-To: <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:57:49 -0000 Gary Corcoran wrote: > Perhaps the 7.0 release notes should include a note to the effect that > ZFS is *strongly* NOT RECOMMENDED on 32-bit systems at this time, due By watching this and other threads on ZFS and reading Sun's own design papers I am getting strong impression that this should be even more strong than strong NOT RECOMMENDED. Perhaps ZFS should BE DISALLOWED to run on i386 at all (unless one does some manual source code tweaking or something like this, and hence can ask no official support from the project). I believe that 95% of hardware today that realistically is capable of running ZFS is also capable of running 64bit code, so that potential ZFS users are far better off switching to FreeBSD/amd64 and help testing/improving that architecture than fighting architectural limitations of already dying i386. And we are as a project are better off too, by spending out limited resources on something that has future. From my own experience FreeBSD/amd64 is quite mature for running most if not all of the server tasks today and ZFS is first and foremost a server FS. The only place where FreeBSD/i386 beats FreeBSD/amd64 is desktop, due to binary drivers and such, but ZFS is almost useless there. So that by simply officially disallowing ZFS on FreeBSD/i386 we could win by a great margin. Just my CAD0.02. -Maxim From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:14:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3242416A41A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:14:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ender@enderzone.com) Received: from www.ksdhost.com (www.ksdhost.com [75.126.66.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B013C459 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:14:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ender@enderzone.com) Received: (qmail 92568 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2008 15:47:34 -0600 Received: from buff-broadband-ws-86.dsl.pwrtc.com (HELO ?192.168.5.100?) (64.184.124.87) by www.ksdhost.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2008 15:47:34 -0600 Message-ID: <47814C4F.7050206@enderzone.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:46:55 -0500 From: Ender User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:14:16 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, > > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone > still have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as > presented in http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? > > I'm interested in reports like this: > http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/freebsd-current/2007/9/21/271557 > (note that this report is for an untuned system). > > > > I have vm.kmem_size="1073741824" I used to have vm.kmem_size_max=1073741824 as well but heard it was not needed to have both. (it made no change) I never see my vfs.numvnodes over 60,000 but i have the limit at 400,000 anyways amd64 freebsd FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #0: Sat Dec 15 06:40:09 EST 2007 graff@nfsd.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/NFSD Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 CPU: Dual-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2218 (2593.52-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x40f12 Stepping = 2 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x2001 AMD Features=0xea500800 AMD Features2=0x1f Cores per package: 2 usable memory = 8580689920 (8183 MB) avail memory = 8257769472 (7875 MB) ACPI APIC Table: <091107 APIC1523> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs All this server does is run nfsd, no apache, no mysql, no rsync, no zfs snapshots either. Jan 1 15:48:09 nfsd kernel: ZFS filesystem version 6 Jan 1 15:48:09 nfsd kernel: ZFS storage pool version 6 Jan 1 15:48:09 nfsd savecore: reboot after panic: kmem_malloc(131072): kmem_map too small: 864546816 total allocated In fact i was going to paste the zpool status here, but typing it in caused the server to crash. In short i have 4 drives paired in 2 mirrors, for a raid 0 + 1 effect, normal SATA drives directly connected to zfs. I have tested this hardware thoroughly without zfs, memory test, make buildworld tests, etc so i know it is stable hardware. I hate to report bad news but i hope this leads to a fix From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:20:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6499816A419 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:20:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.org [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4EA13C459 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:20:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:64983 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JBdqp-0001dz-UX for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:20:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:20:13 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:20:18 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Ivan Voras wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>>> Robert Watson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >>>>>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the >>>>>> stability of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production >>>>>> feature in Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an >>>>>> experimental feature there as well. >>>>> >>>>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >>>> >>>> [Citation needed] >>> >>> I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you >>> don't hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris >>> with ZFS and *it didn't crash*!" often. >>> >>> But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: >>> >>> * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them >>> obviously irrelevant >>> * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small >>> number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but >>> it's a large number in any case. >>> >>> I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is >>> larger than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. >> >> Almost all Solaris systems are 64 bit. >> >> Kris > > So, let's be honest here. ZFS is simply unreliable on FreeBSD/i386. > There are things that you can do mitigate the problems, and in certain > well controlled environments you might be able to make it work well > enough for your needs. But as a general rule, don't expect it to work > reliably, period. This is backed up by Sun's own recommendation to not > run it on 32-bit Solaris. JFWIW - last night's trial OpenSolaris/Indiana' devel iso installed on Core-2 duo with 2GB created something it reported as 'Z-lite) (IIRC - it wasn;t worht wasting HDD space on...) Anyone know if this 'different' on Solaris for i386 from -64? i.e. - is do Sun use a 'lite' and full' version? And, if so, [is there | should there be ] an equivalent in the FreeBSd world? or is that just up to optioning in our case? > > But let's also be honest about ZFS in the 64-bit world. There is ample > evidence that ZFS basically wants to grow unbounded in proportion to the > workload that you give it. Indeed, even Sun recommends basically > throwing more RAM at most problems. Again, tuning is often needed, and > I think it's fair to say that it can't be expected to work on arbitrary > workloads out of the box. ++ > > Now, what about the other problems that have been reported in this > thread by Ivan and others? I don't think that it can be said that the > only problem that ZFS has is with memory. +++ > Unfortunately, it looks like > these "other" problems aren't well quantified, so I think that they are > being unfairly dismissed. But at the same time, maybe these other > problems are rare and unique enough that they represent very special > cases that won't be encountered by most people. But it also tells me > that ZFS is still immature, at least in FreeBSD. > Clearly so. So much so that IMNSHO, inclusion of most *remaining* ZFS issues more properly belongs on the ZFS-specific mailing list. I don't see much - if any - remaining evidence that there are things either 'wrong' or even sub-optimal with FreeBSD *itself* that only ZFS exposes. Au contraire - FreeBSD seems to be as accommodating to ZFS needs as can be. The rest seems to be up to ZFS code, 'sensing' of resources & load, manual & auto-config, dynamic adjustment - more graceful degradation & recovery. Whatever. ZFS-specific, not BSD-in-general. > The universal need for tuning combined with the poorly understood > problem reports tells me that administrators considering ZFS should > expect to spend a fair amount of timing testing and tuning. Don't > expect it to work out of the box for your situation. That's not to > say that it's useless; there are certainly many people who can attest to > it working well for them. Just be prepared to spend time and possibly > money making it work, and be willing to provide good problem reports for > any non-memory related problems that you encounter. > > Scott JM2CW, but the level of 'traffic' on this list in re still-experimental-at-best ZFS is distracting attention from issues that are more universal, critical to more users and uses - and more in need of scarce attention 'Real Soon Now'. It almost begs dismissal of ZFS posts to the bespoke list out-of-hand. ZFS is still eminently 'avoidable' for now. Reports of I/O problems, drivers that can corrupt data on *UFS* are a whole 'nuther matter.. Bill From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:20:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E9416A49E; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0054813C469; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m06LseQe097061; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:54:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:54:40 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:54:40 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:20:53 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Scott Long wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>> Ivan Voras wrote: >>>>>> Robert Watson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet in the thread, but >>>>>>> another thing worth taking into account in considering the >>>>>>> stability of ZFS is whether or not Sun considers it a production >>>>>>> feature in Solaris. Last I heard, it was still considered an >>>>>>> experimental feature there as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Last I heard, rsync didn't crash Solaris on ZFS :) >>>>> >>>>> [Citation needed] >>>> >>>> I can't provide citation about a thing that doesn't happen - you >>>> don't hear things like "oh and yesterday I ran rsync on my Solaris >>>> with ZFS and *it didn't crash*!" often. >>>> >>>> But, with some grains of salt taken, consider this Google results: >>>> >>>> * searching for "rsync crash solaris zfs": 790 results, most of them >>>> obviously irrelevant >>>> * searching for "rsync crash freebsd zfs": 10,800 results; a small >>>> number of the results is from this thread, some are duplicates, but >>>> it's a large number in any case. >>>> >>>> I feel that the number of Solaris+ZFS installations worldwide is >>>> larger than that of FreeBSD+ZFS and they've had ZFS longer. >>> >>> Almost all Solaris systems are 64 bit. >>> >>> Kris >> >> So, let's be honest here. ZFS is simply unreliable on FreeBSD/i386. >> There are things that you can do mitigate the problems, and in certain >> well controlled environments you might be able to make it work well >> enough for your needs. But as a general rule, don't expect it to work >> reliably, period. This is backed up by Sun's own recommendation to not >> run it on 32-bit Solaris. >> >> But let's also be honest about ZFS in the 64-bit world. There is ample >> evidence that ZFS basically wants to grow unbounded in proportion to the >> workload that you give it. Indeed, even Sun recommends basically >> throwing more RAM at most problems. Again, tuning is often needed, and >> I think it's fair to say that it can't be expected to work on arbitrary >> workloads out of the box. >> >> Now, what about the other problems that have been reported in this >> thread by Ivan and others? I don't think that it can be said that the >> only problem that ZFS has is with memory. Unfortunately, it looks like >> these "other" problems aren't well quantified, so I think that they are >> being unfairly dismissed. But at the same time, maybe these other >> problems are rare and unique enough that they represent very special >> cases that won't be encountered by most people. But it also tells me >> that ZFS is still immature, at least in FreeBSD. >> >> The universal need for tuning combined with the poorly understood >> problem reports tells me that administrators considering ZFS should >> expect to spend a fair amount of timing testing and tuning. Don't >> expect it to work out of the box for your situation. That's not to >> say that it's useless; there are certainly many people who can attest to >> it working well for them. Just be prepared to spend time and possibly >> money making it work, and be willing to provide good problem reports for >> any non-memory related problems that you encounter. > > To be clear, in this thread I have been mostly restricting myself to > discussion of kmem problems only, although I have also noted that there > are known ZFS bugs including bugs that are unfixed even in solaris (the > ZIL low memory deadlock is one of them). Indeed, pjd has a long list of > bug reports from me :) > > I agree with the rest of this summary. > > Kris I guess what makes me mad about ZFS is that it's all-or-nothing; either it works, or it crashes. It doesn't automatically recognize limits and make adjustments or sacrifices when it reaches those limits, it just crashes. Wanting multiple gigabytes of RAM for caching in order to optimize performance is great, but crashing when it doesn't get those multiple gigabytes of RAM is not so great, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth about ZFS in general. Scott From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:26:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB41E16A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hugo@barafranca.com) Received: from mail.barafranca.com (mail.barafranca.com [67.19.101.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C456413C455 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hugo@barafranca.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E286C4185; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:35:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.barafranca.com ([67.19.101.164]) by localhost (mail.barafranca.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30739-07; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:34:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nexus.bsdlan.org (a213-22-38-76.cpe.netcabo.pt [213.22.38.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B972C4130; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:34:36 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <47815572.7060705@barafranca.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:25:54 +0000 From: Hugo Silva User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070816) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at barafranca.com X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-1 required=4 tests=[none] X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Ivan Voras Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:26:13 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, > > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone > still have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as > presented in http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? > > I'm interested in reports like this: > http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/freebsd-current/2007/9/21/271557 > (note that this report is for an untuned system). > > > > I have 3 amd64 systems & an i386 system (workstation) using ZFS; I've seen panics related to ZFS only on the i386 machine as expected. (Not to mention it's still -CURRENT from months ago :)) The amd64 servers are a home server (with jails hosted on ZFS), and two servers in Canada. Of these two, one is also a jail server (one of the jails is a mail server that'll be fairly loaded when it goes live) and the other is a backup server (still not in production). The most I've thrown at ZFS so far is buildworld & ports, so perhaps that's why I have not seen any problems yet. I'll inform the list if I encounter any such panics when the systems go live, but for the time being, I just wanted to say "no problems on amd64 here". As a sidenote, I use ganglia and I wrote a little script to export the arcsize sysctl to ganglia, from what I've seen it likes to go up til the limit, but will relinquish memory when there's pressure; I can see such ups and downs easily in the graphs if I stress another part of the system. Regards, Hugo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:32:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE7916A475 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.org [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9FC13C469 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:64993 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JBe2p-0001g3-Sy for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:32:40 +0000 Message-ID: <47815705.1010006@conducive.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:32:37 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:32:41 -0000 Scott Long wrote: *trimmed* > > I guess what makes me mad about ZFS is that it's all-or-nothing; either > it works, or it crashes. It doesn't automatically recognize limits and > make adjustments or sacrifices when it reaches those limits, it just > crashes. Wanting multiple gigabytes of RAM for caching in order to > optimize performance is great, but crashing when it doesn't get those > multiple gigabytes of RAM is not so great, and it leaves a bad taste in > my mouth about ZFS in general. > > Scott To be fair - every fs on the planet had to go through this at one time or another. We have been perhaps 'spoiled' by the odd runaway log or such that has pushed UFS to over 103% 'full', struggled on regardless, allowing us to ssh in from 12,000 miles away, kill the offender, clean up the mess, and soldier-on w/o even a reboot, let alone a crash. ZFS will (probably) get there one day as well. But at present, it has become a distraction we don't need. We're chasing promises... I'd happily trade all future interest in ZFS for better ufs, nfs, smbfs, ntfs, xfs, jfs, et al performance/safety/compatibility, ... if only 'coz that's where the bulk of the data we need to 'talk to' actually resides - not on ZFS or GPFS. Bill From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:33:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3038016A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FC613C447 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7450596rvb.43 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=oEACo1PQesqODRvG+b88wYKErlB4WnhUwh9i9hRiVcw=; b=dd4taYN41kPD4rvfhYwet0rfiqPSOLL5eVuW09CGFz+4e+7WQuBctYw7f4IdIq0okXEpUwECYyiakkqcweVgdzgxQtrrGZwZHDLmmDzDeoADyjk/yW793uTkg+lUqFbxEqvzaE5uw56kVBD2swint4vXmmSSpe1mZmvWeYMH/5o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gZcWOrDQPaU3IzY1jlNqRTfMD4gijtBrp89VeuhVpZzNwXALS+BM2MWiBRN7pOIhMj/AX1RRSBrAl0mjlBCpR/UdLUHpw2MaBkMMDIzy5zE/llUBrFJcJNj+kYoVhtLNPYj6p+sBElL6fDxLMqsFbVMu0VOFSKv5i8sXKngF6Ow= Received: by 10.140.207.2 with SMTP id e2mr10196381rvg.299.1199658788399; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801061433y381159aakf2ad51faffdca987@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:33:08 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "Scott Long" In-Reply-To: <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: aee7970e52ea0aaa Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:33:09 -0000 On 06/01/2008, Scott Long wrote: > I guess what makes me mad about ZFS is that it's all-or-nothing; either > it works, or it crashes. It doesn't automatically recognize limits and > make adjustments or sacrifices when it reaches those limits, it just > crashes. Wanting multiple gigabytes of RAM for caching in order to > optimize performance is great, but crashing when it doesn't get those > multiple gigabytes of RAM is not so great, and it leaves a bad taste in > my mouth about ZFS in general. I agree with the sentiment. I don't know about its implementation, but surely some kind of backout could have be implemented? I'm just guessing here: maybe the problem is in M_NOWAIT - maybe there could be a M_NOWAIT_BUT_ALLOW_NULL that would be safe to use in non-sleepable code but could return NULL, which could be tested and the whole file system request postponed... From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:33:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541FA16A41B; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363FE13C4D3; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4C548436; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:33:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:33:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Vadim Goncharov Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:33:20 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Vadim Goncharov wrote: >> 06.01.08 @ 23:34 Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >>>> What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? >>> >>> Everything else that the kernel needs address space for. Buffer cache, >>> mbuf allocation, etc. >> >> Aren't they allocated from the same memory zones? I have a router with 256 >> Mb RAM, it had a panic with ng_nat once due to exhausted kmem. So, what >> these number from it's sysctl do really mean? >> >> vm.kmem_size: 83415040 >> vm.kmem_size_max: 335544320 >> vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 >> vm.kvm_size: 1073737728 >> vm.kvm_free: 704638976 > > I believe that mbufs are allocated from a separate map. In your case you > only have ~80MB available in your kmem_map, which is used for malloc() in > the kernel. It is possible that ng_nat in combination with the other kernel > malloc usage exhausted this relatively small amount of space without mbuf > use being a factor. Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from the general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are still allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of the known issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without resource limits: address space and memory use were potentially unbounded, so Randall recently properly implemented the resource limits on mbuf clusters of large sizes. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:37:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2EC16A420 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:37:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@superhero.nl) Received: from superman.superhero.nl (superhero.nl [82.95.198.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531AF13C46E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@superhero.nl) Received: (qmail 14845 invoked by uid 80); 6 Jan 2008 22:10:55 -0000 Received: from robin.ad.superhero.nl ([10.202.77.197]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user gelsemap) by webmail.superhero.nl with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:10:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1625.10.202.77.197.1199657455.squirrel@webmail.superhero.nl> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:10:55 +0100 (CET) From: "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\) - FreeBSD" To: "Ivan Voras" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:37:55 -0000 On Sun, January 6, 2008 19:25, Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, > > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone still > have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented in > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? > > I'm interested in reports like this: > http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/freebsd-current/2007/9/21/271557 (note > that this report is for an untuned system). > > I have my Music and movies collection on a ZFS pool for more than a month now which is shared through samba over the network with an XBox MediaCenter without any problem, hitches or disconnects. No tuning. Everything out of the box. The zfs pool is jailed and within the jail runs samba. The only "issue" I have is that whenever I reboot that I have to re-jail the zfs pool and remount it within the jail. Would love if this could be automatic. Details: FreeBSD hulk.superhero.nl 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Mon Dec 24 18:52:08 CET 2007 admin@hulk.superhero.nl:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4800+ (2511.41-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x60fb1 Stepping = 1 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x2001 AMD Features=0xea500800 AMD Features2=0x11f Cores per package: 2 usable memory = 3526770688 (3363 MB) ** actual 4 GB but I have memory hole mapping disabled as enabling renders the system unusable due to being unable to mount / *** avail memory = 3411177472 (3253 MB) last pid: 95799; load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 up 13+03:50:10 23:06:09 64 processes: 1 running, 63 sleeping CPU states: 0.0% user, 0.0% nice, 0.0% system, 0.0% interrupt, 100% idle Mem: 107M Active, 478M Inact, 626M Wired, 216K Cache, 214M Buf, 2050M Free Swap: 4096M Total, 4096M Free hulk# sysctl -a | grep kmem vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 vm.kmem_size_max: 419430400 vm.kmem_size_min: 0 vm.kmem_size: 419430400 hulk# zpool status pool: zfspublic state: ONLINE scrub: none requested config: NAME STATE READ WRITE CKSUM zfspublic ONLINE 0 0 0 raidz1 ONLINE 0 0 0 ad4 ONLINE 0 0 0 ad6 ONLINE 0 0 0 ad8 ONLINE 0 0 0 errors: No known data errors hulk# zfs get all NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE zfspublic type filesystem - zfspublic creation Mon Dec 3 15:13 2007 - zfspublic used 83.7G - zfspublic available 829G - zfspublic referenced 24.0K - zfspublic compressratio 1.00x - zfspublic mounted yes - zfspublic quota none default zfspublic reservation none default zfspublic recordsize 128K default zfspublic mountpoint /zfspublic default zfspublic sharenfs off default zfspublic checksum on default zfspublic compression off default zfspublic atime on default zfspublic devices on default zfspublic exec on default zfspublic setuid on default zfspublic readonly off default zfspublic jailed off default zfspublic snapdir hidden default zfspublic aclmode groupmask default zfspublic aclinherit secure default zfspublic canmount on default zfspublic shareiscsi off default zfspublic xattr off temporary zfspublic copies 1 default zfspublic/batman type filesystem - zfspublic/batman creation Mon Dec 3 15:14 2007 - zfspublic/batman used 83.7G - zfspublic/batman available 829G - zfspublic/batman referenced 83.7G - zfspublic/batman compressratio 1.00x - zfspublic/batman mounted yes - zfspublic/batman quota none default zfspublic/batman reservation none default zfspublic/batman recordsize 128K default zfspublic/batman mountpoint /s/public local zfspublic/batman sharenfs off default zfspublic/batman checksum on default zfspublic/batman compression off default zfspublic/batman atime on default zfspublic/batman devices on default zfspublic/batman exec on default zfspublic/batman setuid on default zfspublic/batman readonly off default zfspublic/batman jailed on local zfspublic/batman snapdir hidden default zfspublic/batman aclmode groupmask default zfspublic/batman aclinherit secure default zfspublic/batman canmount on default zfspublic/batman shareiscsi off default zfspublic/batman xattr off temporary zfspublic/batman copies 1 default From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:43:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B12716A41B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:43:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC20513C4CE for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBeDO-0000ME-Aj for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:43:34 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:43:34 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:43:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:43:16 +0100 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigAC37C383475FA12EBDDFB95B" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:43:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigAC37C383475FA12EBDDFB95B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E9=9F=93=E5=AE=B6=E6=A8=99 Bill Hacker wrote: > JM2CW, but the level of 'traffic' on this list in re=20 > still-experimental-at-best ZFS is distracting attention from issues tha= t=20 > are more universal, critical to more users and uses - and more in need = > of scarce attention 'Real Soon Now'. >=20 > It almost begs dismissal of ZFS posts to the bespoke list out-of-hand. >=20 > ZFS is still eminently 'avoidable' for now. >=20 > Reports of I/O problems, drivers that can corrupt data on *UFS* are a=20 > whole 'nuther matter.. For my part it's because I'm "desperate" for a good file system, and ZFS = seemed to be "it" for a while. I'd also settle for any other, including=20 a stable version of UFS that's pleasant to work with on TB-sized drives=20 (Sun's UFS? BLUFFS?), XFS, Ext4, LFS, HAMMER, whatever. I've tried contacting the author of BLUFFS, but without optimistic result= s. --------------enigAC37C383475FA12EBDDFB95B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgVmJldnAQVacBcgRArtTAJ0TjrtlWo5jGozT55CIb6y3ZFTfFgCgu46n 5/kMq/EqrrwoIEwncZ2yVbg= =ygzs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigAC37C383475FA12EBDDFB95B-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:50:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81ED416A420 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F38013C4F8 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBeJe-0000fM-6N for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:50:02 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:50:02 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:50:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:45:09 +0100 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig157172261597D2CB0F24F254" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:50:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig157172261597D2CB0F24F254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Watson wrote: > Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from = > the general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are = > still allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of = > the known issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without=20 > resource limits: address space and memory use were potentially=20 > unbounded, so Randall recently properly implemented the resource limits= =20 > on mbuf clusters of large sizes. Is this related to reported panics with ZFS and a heavy network load=20 (NFS mostly)? --------------enig157172261597D2CB0F24F254 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgVn1ldnAQVacBcgRArzGAJ96QlxG3VnfACkWe7vvvQkqYc3rZQCgzCPP K1Yl643Vws2q8emoyKqk/3Y= =tLNf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig157172261597D2CB0F24F254-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:50:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDAE16A41B for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:50:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hugo@barafranca.com) Received: from mail.barafranca.com (mail.barafranca.com [67.19.101.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA33E13C45A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:50:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hugo@barafranca.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE30C415A; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:59:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.barafranca.com ([67.19.101.164]) by localhost (mail.barafranca.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39504-02; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:58:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nexus.bsdlan.org (a213-22-38-76.cpe.netcabo.pt [213.22.38.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95C1C41E3; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:58:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <47815B12.5090101@barafranca.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:49:54 +0000 From: Hugo Silva User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070816) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\) - FreeBSD" References: <1625.10.202.77.197.1199657455.squirrel@webmail.superhero.nl> In-Reply-To: <1625.10.202.77.197.1199657455.squirrel@webmail.superhero.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at barafranca.com X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-1 required=4 tests=[none] X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:50:07 -0000 > The zfs pool is jailed and within the jail runs samba. > > The only "issue" I have is that whenever I reboot that I have to re-jail > the zfs pool and remount it within the jail. Would love if this could be > automatic. > Would having the option to specify the JID one wants for a jail that's launching solve this ? Regards, Hugo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:55:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513B516A421 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:55:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@superhero.nl) Received: from superman.superhero.nl (superhero.nl [82.95.198.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7D713C465 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:55:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@superhero.nl) Received: (qmail 16634 invoked by uid 80); 6 Jan 2008 22:55:33 -0000 Received: from robin.ad.superhero.nl ([10.202.77.197]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user gelsemap) by webmail.superhero.nl with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:55:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <2172.10.202.77.197.1199660133.squirrel@webmail.superhero.nl> In-Reply-To: <47815B12.5090101@barafranca.com> References: <1625.10.202.77.197.1199657455.squirrel@webmail.superhero.nl> <47815B12.5090101@barafranca.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:55:33 +0100 (CET) From: "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\) - FreeBSD" To: "Hugo Silva" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\) - FreeBSD" Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:55:51 -0000 On Sun, January 6, 2008 23:49, Hugo Silva wrote: > >> The zfs pool is jailed and within the jail runs samba. >> >> The only "issue" I have is that whenever I reboot that I have to re-jail >> the zfs pool and remount it within the jail. Would love if this could be >> automatic. >> > > Would having the option to specify the JID one wants for a jail that's > launching solve this ? > After rebooting I have to do the following on the box. On the host: hulk# zfs jail 4 zfspublic/batman This allows the jail with id4 (called batman) to talk to the zfs pool. On the jail: batman# zfs mount -a Only after that the zfs pool/storage is available from within the jail. I did have a quick look to see if I could add something to the rc.zfs file but it's a bit tricky, depending on when the zfs is started/loaded and when the jails are initialised. You can only jail zfs when the jail in which you want to use zfs is already running. Please correct me if I am wrong. Fortunately I do not reboot that often ;-) Patrick > Regards, > > Hugo > From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 22:58:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D649616A477 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.org [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BD513C448 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:64932 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JBeSC-0001lq-JG for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:58:52 +0000 Message-ID: <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:58:49 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:58:53 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > 韓家標 Bill Hacker wrote: > >> JM2CW, but the level of 'traffic' on this list in re >> still-experimental-at-best ZFS is distracting attention from issues >> that are more universal, critical to more users and uses - and more in >> need of scarce attention 'Real Soon Now'. >> >> It almost begs dismissal of ZFS posts to the bespoke list out-of-hand. >> >> ZFS is still eminently 'avoidable' for now. >> >> Reports of I/O problems, drivers that can corrupt data on *UFS* are a >> whole 'nuther matter.. > > For my part it's because I'm "desperate" for a good file system, and ZFS > seemed to be "it" for a while. I'd also settle for any other, including > a stable version of UFS that's pleasant to work with on TB-sized drives > (Sun's UFS? BLUFFS?), XFS, Ext4, LFS, HAMMER, whatever. > > I've tried contacting the author of BLUFFS, but without optimistic results. > None are perfect. But ZFS is just *too* new. And not just on *BSD. If IBM had not already had GPFS, Sun might never even have 'invented' ZFS. The 'other' ones with the longest 'history' - where known-problems have knwon avoidance/workaround, may well be XFS and JFS. Heavy-lifters iwht commercial track-records, both. Not to mention UFS... I'm still in the practice of 'slicing' into 50 GB or so - 100GB max - no matter *what* the drive size is. So where's the 'beef'? Half-terabyte *files*? I surely hope not.. At some point too many eggs (files) in one basket just makes b/u restore a nightmare. There are no silver bullets. Drives fail. Controllers fail, and sometimes had done so long before anyone noticed they were subtly corrupting data. So even RAID arrays and offline b/u can fail one.. ZFS doesn't 'fix' all that - just approaches a fix in an all-software manner. Other failings aside, there is an overhead penalty for all the 'handling'. Coders may believe in that. It's what they do. I'll take simplicity, redundant hardware. And compartmentalization. Faster, cheaper, lasts a long time. And takes more manageable sized chunks out of yerass when it DOES go tits-up. As that all do. Bill From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 6 23:48:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F09E16A417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:48:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mcdouga9@egr.msu.edu) Received: from mx.egr.msu.edu (surfnturf.egr.msu.edu [35.9.37.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F7C13C457 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:48:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mcdouga9@egr.msu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost.egr.msu.edu [127.0.0.1]) by mx.egr.msu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9A2EB8C5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:32:55 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at egr.msu.edu Received: from mx.egr.msu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (surfnturf.egr.msu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCaxuHDcVMQz for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon.egr.msu.edu [35.9.44.65]) by mx.egr.msu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162822EB8C4 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 21281) id 12A3333C3D; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:32:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:32:55 -0500 From: Adam McDougall To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> References: <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:48:29 -0000 On Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 01:56:59PM -0800, Maxim Sobolev wrote: Gary Corcoran wrote: >> Perhaps the 7.0 release notes should include a note to the effect that >> ZFS is *strongly* NOT RECOMMENDED on 32-bit systems at this time, due By watching this and other threads on ZFS and reading Sun's own design papers I am getting strong impression that this should be even more strong than strong NOT RECOMMENDED. Perhaps ZFS should BE DISALLOWED to run on i386 at all (unless one does some manual source code tweaking or something like this, and hence can ask no official support from the project). I feel like stating my opinion on this, noting that I am usually stubborn enough to squeeze alot of value out of any rough product, while avoiding complaining about continuing problems if I am not prepared to put in appropriate effort to solve them. A summary of my opinion on this matter is that some i386 FreeBSD servers do have a place running zfs in a useful role, but some dedication and patience from the administrator is usually required, and the effort to tune at least kmem is nearly required on ALL hardware platforms, not just i386. I think kmem shortages from zfs are simply more touchy on i386, and with enough ram and slightly more tuning than amd64 the kmem can most likely be tuned away, but this does not do anything for other zfs problems such as zil deadlocks and other deadlocks. I think doing something to prevent FreeBSD/i386 users from using zfs will just rule out a portion of the people having problems, and admins who take a little time to tune zfs AND use it more than just lightly may continue to have problems, and will just come back to the lists. I have zfs on at least 4 systems presently, each one tuned to where I no longer receive kmem panics at least based on their expected system load. 2 of them are i386 and I would be quite dismayed to upgrade RELENG_7 to find ZFS has been disabled for me (although since I read the mailing lists I would expect it and deal appropriately). It would be a tradeoff between breaking a limited amount of existing setups versus somehow limiting the influx of new zfs users who _may_ encounter zfs problems (of course you will only hear from the people who complain). The amount of kmem required for a particular workload on any one machine can vary alot. Believe it or not, it is one of my AMD64 systems that I had to increase kmem to 1.6G to prevent kmem panics (it does some heavy nightly rsyncs); versus just having kmem set to 1G on a i386 system that constantly serves out files to the internet with various rsyncs running through the day. I don't think its exactly fair to punish all i386 users by disabling functionality, but I'm not the one that has to support all the users so I can understand the caution. I'm certainly in favor of more dire warnings where appropriate. Perhaps even a simple runtime warning when creating or importing a zpool? I still think problems with running zfs on i386 will be the tip of that iceberg. Certainly light use of zfs on an i386 might never see a crash. But I think this might be a new frontier for a FreeBSD release to include functionality that is blatently labeled experimental and considered unstable yet will have wide appeal and interest; almost anyone can use a filesystem on FreeBSD, its not like it is just an unstable network driver affecting a small portion of users. I believe that 95% of hardware today that realistically is capable of running ZFS is also capable of running 64bit code, so that potential ZFS users are far better off switching to FreeBSD/amd64 and help testing/improving that architecture than fighting architectural limitations of already dying i386. And we are as a project are better off too, by spending out limited resources on something that has future. One of my busiest zfs servers is a dual Xeon 2.0ghz (i386 only) with 2 gigs of ram (and I plan to add more 'just cuz'). I don't have any spare amd64 systems I could replace it with at this time, yet I feel the hardware is up to the job if configured as best I can. I have plenty of spares of this server type since it is older yet not useless. It pushes out data constantly to the internet, boots off of zfs, and I believe has never crashed from a kmem panic thanks to the tuning I have set below, gathered from wiki, mailing lists, and experience: vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable="1" vfs.zfs.arc_max="104857600" vm.kmem_size_max="1G" vfs.zfs.zil_disable="1" I will not pretend it is perfectly stable (it has hung every couple of weeks) but it is not due to a kmem panic. zil was disabled because it caused deadlocks. I think what I face now is some other kind of deadlock, which I will try harder to debug the next time it happens, although I have to balance time spent with benefit. It has only happened twice since I disabled zil. This server is doing something useful with zfs yet I can put up with occasional downtime without much complaint from users. I am using it as a semi-production testbed to kick the tires on zfs and use the experience to boost my zfs skills and hopefully help out the whole FreeBSD community with my results when possible. From my own experience FreeBSD/amd64 is quite mature for running most if not all of the server tasks today and ZFS is first and foremost a server FS. The only place where FreeBSD/i386 beats FreeBSD/amd64 is desktop, due to binary drivers and such, but ZFS is almost useless there. So that by simply officially disallowing ZFS on FreeBSD/i386 we could win by a great margin. Just my CAD0.02. -Maxim _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 00:06:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B0316A41B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:06:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg (smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.31]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 432DA13C469 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:06:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 1624 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2008 23:39:47 -0000 Received: from adsl127.dyn229.pacific.net.sg (HELO P2120.somewherefaraway.com) (oceanare@210.24.229.127) by smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg with ESMTPA; 6 Jan 2008 23:39:47 -0000 Message-ID: <478166B3.5040901@pacific.net.sg> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:39:31 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070826) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maxim Sobolev References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kennaway , Gary Corcoran , Ivan Voras Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:06:31 -0000 Hi, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Gary Corcoran wrote: > > I believe that 95% of hardware today that realistically is capable of I do not think so. > running ZFS is also capable of running 64bit code, so that potential ZFS All new hardware since Intel started supporting 64 bits on their Pentiums is. > limitations of already dying i386. And we are as a project are better Let's see it much more practical. Are all features and all ports all the time supported on all platforms? I do not think so. So, just make it a requirement for ZFS to run only on 64 bit upward. It is not that FreeBSD does not have some kind o file system for older machines. Erich From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 00:58:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B8316A421 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:58:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from sippysoft.com (gk.360sip.com [72.236.70.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E13713C447 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:58:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([204.244.149.125]) (authenticated bits=0) by sippysoft.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m070wo1K057283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4781791A.2090401@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:58:02 -0800 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Sippy Software, Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam McDougall References: <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:58:55 -0000 Adam McDougall wrote: > A summary of my opinion on this matter is that some i386 FreeBSD servers do have a > place running zfs in a useful role, but some dedication and patience from the > administrator is usually required, and the effort to tune at least kmem is nearly In Russian we have a good saying: "You can teach a bear to ride a bicycle, but will it ever enjoy it?" The same is here - seemingly due to the ZFS design limitations and limitations of the FreeBSD kernel you can't get ZFS to run reliably out of the box on i386. Yes, you can probably do some tweaks here and there, to make it more of less stable given the workload, but that's not what most of the FreeBSD users expect from the file system. Unlike you, most of administrators won't even bother to read tweaking documentation explaining why ZFS is so tricky in i386, let alone doing actual trial-and-error to determine the right set of tunables. More likely at the first incident they would just dismiss FreeBSD/ZFS as a crap. -Maxim From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 01:01:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08EC16A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@terranova.net) Received: from tog.net (tog.net [216.89.226.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AF013C448 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@terranova.net) Received: from [216.89.228.170] (host-216-89-228-170.wireless.terranova.net [216.89.228.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tog.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C49729B5FB for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:01:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47817A06.9070906@terranova.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:01:58 -0500 From: Travis Mikalson Organization: TerraNovaNet Internet Services User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <200801062130.40755.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:02:00 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Peter Schuller wrote: >>> In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone still >>> have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented in >>> http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? >> >> Not sure if you wanted negatives, but I have not seen such crashes on >> any of > > All reports are welcome :) > >> the three amd64 systems I'm running ZFS on (3 gb, 4 gb and 4 gb of >> RAM). The only tuning done is to increase the kmem size and arc_max >> and disabling prefetch. The increase in kmem was not to avoid crashes, >> but was to accomodate the larger arc_max chosen. > > This is somewhat a special case - you also did tuning besides kmem size. > I'm especially interested in this, hoping to gather the "combination > that works" from the reports. I can tell you what works for us. Slightly verbose and repeating things most of us already know, for the archives. Do not put your swap on ZFS. On an amd64 system with 2GB of RAM, we put the following in /boot/loader.conf: vfs.zfs.arc_max="600M" vm.kmem_size_max="1G" vm.kmem_size="1G" We seem to pretty easily panic our RELENG_7 ZFS systems if we do not set arc_max to roughly 65% or less of kmem_size_max. I do 60% to be more conservative. YMMV, but you get the idea. To panic our systems quickly when the tuning settings are bad (in other words, to trigger a kmem_map_too_small panic) we can use iozone. It usually only takes a minute or two. -- TerraNovaNet Internet Services - Key Largo, FL Voice: (305)453-4011 x101 Fax: (305)451-5991 http://www.terranova.net/ ---------------------------------------------- Life's not fair, but the root password helps. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 01:04:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C160516A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net (vms173001pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A454C13C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.3.231] ([70.21.165.95]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JU800FR3YH3Q6XF@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:55:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:03:16 -0500 From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-reply-to: <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E9=9F=93=E5=AE=B6=E6=A8=99?= Bill Hacker Message-id: <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:04:54 -0000 On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 22:58 +0000, 韓家標 Bill Hacker wrote: > None are perfect. But ZFS is just *too* new. And not just on *BSD. > If IBM had not already had GPFS, Sun might never even have 'invented' ZFS. Could you by any chance elaborate -- from the information available to me, I did not get an impression that ZFS is the cluster-aware filesystem or will ever be one. OTOH that's all GPFS is. > > The 'other' ones with the longest 'history' - where known-problems have knwon > avoidance/workaround, may well be XFS and JFS. Heavy-lifters iwht commercial > track-records, both. > > Not to mention UFS... > > I'm still in the practice of 'slicing' into 50 GB or so - 100GB max - no matter > *what* the drive size is. OT: As someone, who has ~10TB of compressed high-fidelity documents in production (AIX/JFS2), I can tell you that this approach will only take you so far ;) I am up to 800GB filesystems by now. > > So where's the 'beef'? > > Half-terabyte *files*? I surely hope not.. Not any better then 200 x 50GB filesystems ;) -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 01:16:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CD816A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F18C13C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBgbl-00070p-TM for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:16:53 +0000 Received: from 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.37.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:16:53 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:16:53 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:16:34 +0100 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <478148FD.20605@FreeBSD.org> <47814E20.70801@samsco.org> <9bbcef730801061433y381159aakf2ad51faffdca987@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1B5B95A725BB32D3D2646FB8" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-37-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801061433y381159aakf2ad51faffdca987@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:16:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1B5B95A725BB32D3D2646FB8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ivan Voras wrote: > guessing here: maybe the problem is in M_NOWAIT - maybe there could be Um, I don't think this part of the post means what I wanted it to mean - = please ignore it - ETOOTIRED :) --------------enig1B5B95A725BB32D3D2646FB8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgX14ldnAQVacBcgRAuVWAKConCKP0rpBLFMUlF97Kx+Wh5HvuACg8Fog 3soMPQjlxaQAQ16I29jbPbQ= =srCp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1B5B95A725BB32D3D2646FB8-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 02:29:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CD616A41B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:29:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.org [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6531E13C45A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:29:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:65290 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JBhkJ-0002FF-2F for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:29:47 +0000 Message-ID: <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:29:43 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> In-Reply-To: <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:29:48 -0000 Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 22:58 +0000, 韓家標 Bill Hacker wrote: > >> None are perfect. But ZFS is just *too* new. And not just on *BSD. >> If IBM had not already had GPFS, Sun might never even have 'invented' ZFS. > Could you by any chance elaborate -- from the information available to > me, I did not get an impression that ZFS is the cluster-aware filesystem > or will ever be one. From the Wikipedia article on Lustre... "...Sun completed its acquisition of Cluster File Systems, Inc., including the Lustre file system, on October 2, 2007, with the intention of bringing the benefits of Lustre technologies to Sun's ZFS file system and the Solaris operating system." So Sun has had what? 2+ months? to try to fill a ZFS 'hole' that was worth a major investment? See also traffic on *Sun's* ZFS list. Adds up to a tacit admission of 'not quite there yet' to me... > OTOH that's all GPFS is. Far more features than that - 'robust', 'fault tolerant', 'Disaster Recovery' ... all the usual buzzwords. And nothing prevents using 'cluster' tools on a single box. Not storage-wise anyway. More importantly - GPFS has just under ten years in the market, and has become a primary player in Supercomputing as well as video on demand et al. BTW: UFS(1) / FFS - have very respectable upper-bounds - UFS2 even more so, so (even) Sun is not totally dependent on ZFS. Unless they choose to become so... Finally - the principle architect/miracle worker of ZFS on FreeBSD - pjd@ - seems to be heavily committed on other matters now, and may be so for some time to come. Ergo 'caution' remains appropriate for production use w/r ZFS - perhaps until 8.X. Bill From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 02:38:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0BB16A46C for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from conversation.bsdunix.ch (ns1.bsdunix.ch [82.220.1.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39F713C467 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:38:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from localhost (localhost.bsdunix.ch [127.0.0.1]) by conversation.bsdunix.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA15B5E72; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 03:38:05 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mail.bsdunix.ch Received: from conversation.bsdunix.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (conversation.bsdunix.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id B+c9DdKwvQfl; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 03:38:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from Tom.local (home.bsdunix.ch [82.220.17.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by conversation.bsdunix.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA13C5E70; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 03:38:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4781908A.5090009@bsdunix.ch> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 03:38:02 +0100 From: Thomas Vogt User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070807) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS on AMD64 - any recent crashes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:38:08 -0000 Hi Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, > > In light of the recent discussion about ZFS stability, does anyone still > have kmem_map_too_small panics on AMD64 after tuning it (as presented in > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide)? No crashes so far. ftp2.ch.freebsd.org is running FreeBSD 7 Beta4 with ZFS on a 64bit Intel Quad Core with 4GB since 2-3 months. We provide a cvsup mirror with cvsup.ch.freebsd.org and a portsnap mirror with portsnap3.freebsd.org too. As an official mirror for kde, mysql, fedora, opensuse, openoffice we run several rsync processes a day and offer rsync for mirroring. No problem so far. I never had any ZFS related crash. I just set two paramters in the loader.conf: vm.kmem_size_max="1073741824" vm.kmem_size="1073741824" and kern.maxvnodes=400000 in sysctl.conf I often talk to Solaris admins for larg server farms. They normally use at least 1 GB ram per 1 TB disk space with ZFS. I did the same thing. Regards, Thomas From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 04:29:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64D016A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:29:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08A813C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:29:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JU900GRSB4ZC1I0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m074TMgp000174 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:29:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:29:22 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-id: <4781AAA2.9070207@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Subject: more acd0+ihc9r problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:29:25 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am using 8-current (including the latest pmap mods) amd64 on a MSI Neo-F mobo (P35+IHC9R with intergrated re(4) and sata) with a Plextor px-755a SATA dvd+/-rw. I have the following issues with /dev/acd0: If there is blank media present at boot time (have not tested with non-blank media) depending on media type the following happens: 1. re(4) disappears (cd-r) 2. named fails but re(4) is present (cd-rw) 3. goes into infinite stall (not hang) (dvd-r) If write is attempted to media depending on media type the following happens: 1. Fails to fixate due to timeout (cd-r) 2. Fails to write anything (cd-rw and dvd-r) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgaqijRvRjGmHRgQRAm/9AJ9AVu+g/ae1gzU8uAkXLv2lQPzsRwCeJgpz AGMxB5GxThOjpwm/D02N76w= =LHkd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 07:37:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03B816A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:37:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5650713C455 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:37:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so11192576fka.11 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:37:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=pygMxd8G6bNb90Gqfq4wgZiRPDVC4NkqhUKs2/XqPH8=; b=QUQyHyTov+6XzXe1Ikji5TTaxOE8iFanJr1T3Spclqak1a31lOEu9xEj9oGoiJA/UZ7wPdwydEaA2YzVE28Sl7vbC7PhXEeis8sLdo2+mNlLib8vK3Pi7mnbjp8/hlzQ+APjYQ7BGq0FLxaYOPlm59NKpL1yUHmERxYSwvISRJY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=adXbJHRKx9xNtY/k49iE6IV5/ZJXynQV3FQ5jrVWy3hmjYKLMD5TO5wuO+ryChHK3BI3UyaUBKomvKcMkW6l0hPaEW1oO8PVr5XiMjAQZ7hY7cPyf+KqtmhvhC+vpY4nDxGEz0i8vF/dULnUSrBjHUPbcts0eOL9SF4DH/yNq3M= Received: by 10.82.106.14 with SMTP id e14mr27364197buc.38.1199689812107; Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.159.19 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:10:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <14989d6e0801062310q6992630et93370d5d2d0be2c7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:10:12 +0100 From: "Christian Walther" To: "Maxim Sobolev" In-Reply-To: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:37:43 -0000 Hi Maxim, On 06/01/2008, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Gary Corcoran wrote: > > Perhaps the 7.0 release notes should include a note to the effect that > > ZFS is *strongly* NOT RECOMMENDED on 32-bit systems at this time, due > [...] The only place where FreeBSD/i386 beats FreeBSD/amd64 is > desktop, due to binary drivers and such, but ZFS is almost useless > there. I don't think so. My guess is that partitioning/slicing disks is a pain for most of the users. How does one tell how big a filesystem should be, even or especially on the desktop? I found myself having to cope with full filesystems several times. Using ZFS even on one disk just to get rid of fixed partition/slice boundaries is a good thing. Christian From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 07:49:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D867C16A418; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from cs1.cs.huji.ac.il (cs1.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9775713C467; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32]) by cs1.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1JBmjZ-00047M-05; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:49:21 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.2 To: Andrew Reilly In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:42:09 +1100 . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:49:20 +0200 From: Danny Braniss Message-ID: Cc: rgrav , Tim Kientzle , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , Jason Evans Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:49:23 -0000 > On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:56:32 +0200 > Danny Braniss wrote: >=20 > > what Apple has is one file, that will run the appropiate binary if ru= n > > on an i386 or a ppc, not 2 different files - universal binary - not r= osetta. >=20 > Sure, but that's got a bunch of different driving factors. I > don't know, for example, whether you can build a four-way > executable (ia32, x86_64, ppc, ppc64). Well, you probably can, > but I'd be a bit surprised if anyone has. FreeBSD supports even > more architectures: it just doesn't scale. The best bet for > something that has to run everywhere is probably LLVM or TNEF. >=20 > The advantage that Unix has over MacOS is that we aren't trying > to squeeze everything into single =22application=22 directories. So > it's reasonable to have =22share=22, and select executables on the > basis of PATH. That's how it has worked before. Most sites > don't have more than two or three different architectures to > support, anyway. >=20 This argument has sides/issues, one is the 'distribution', and here I agr= ee that one universal-fit-all is not the way to go. I'm concerned in trying to solve a problem we are facing here, were=20 students/researchers write code, and soon will be hit by incompatible platforms. > If we do get much further with multi-architecture bin and lib, > and people actively use these on diskless setups or > multi-architecture hosts (amd64/ia32, or other 64/32 bit > combinations being the most common) then perhaps it would be nice > to have a share/bin where platform-independent scripts (shell, > perl, python) as well as dynamic-translated binaries (JVM, LLVM, > etc) can live? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > --=20 > Andrew danny From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 08:20:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B34016A46C for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:20:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0069813C455 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:20:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so4217584uge.37 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:20:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=9d95dDc7Ab/zAXoEHx3c825KVL6zCaLiTP28IyRa754=; b=DNo4FAozi9QCMeNOtGTf2wNR1z3jxJtisWPtr37Ikrw93tj/zTiZOVHZXLW5DvIOhKOw99ViDqp0VzKOSnExvfBRiKonxVEeZA933XZZezGh+I1gYFaTUepj03HbYQcl2kL2HjTLS+4YJ00cicAy6V3NPfMjI91v/1heDrf2KEU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OOQ9IEYIIXM4mP5njvoldFOexAG53WoRTrqpJy9fIeRkrgYQ36AgoXxbOedp9VjAKO8Y6denRVlr82+SzMeNJQPdj98mHQF5jElkVEDnJnLk5i8Di0CjX45MSMmVUWDRKHO8Wj6EEcbMQPhB2sezpgiFhJdsS7Z9eTebcMKPBgY= Received: by 10.66.221.18 with SMTP id t18mr3012857ugg.80.1199694029678; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:20:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:20:29 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Christian Walther" In-Reply-To: <14989d6e0801062310q6992630et93370d5d2d0be2c7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <14989d6e0801062310q6992630et93370d5d2d0be2c7@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e5ca3a3b6e5c623c Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:20:31 -0000 On 07/01/2008, Christian Walther wrote: > I don't think so. My guess is that partitioning/slicing disks is a > pain for most of the users. How does one tell how big a filesystem > should be, even or especially on the desktop? I found myself having to > cope with full filesystems several times. That could be a good thing (think programs creating lots of files and not cleaning up after themselves)... > Using ZFS even on one disk just to get rid of fixed partition/slice > boundaries is a good thing. How is that different to creating one / slice of FFS? Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 08:51:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43E416A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.189]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5381C13C45B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so11226010fka.11 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:51:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=weh05n8O22HET3b5Ksb1kyy78yp2gkc5wcQ/nt0s2/w=; b=k4WFERIA9y4gjkq4mPTjInQucJNFy6wAq/ymWij6BJBO1M4CclCmi0k+Uw5443lzPT7LamJFRMjeUYEcZabnWjVA1LkU7zEDOo+7BMTqxypPYEVO0e1gPwy0W1zZKmdmUrINn4W4P8JW6o1aQABXqk+8AG5QsKKevpnYe/N9VBg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=T6419T30DCQ7k7Srz8/fTx0K0LTB9lsCTDCWw8xnIkKNuvvrBslsuWEPw49o1ZnkWXkHeXveVU/es7ihH5jsvv8JoyZnMIUunnR8Qi7P2gmnhKzq31KjBqyR3HFJVCjlDa7Q7i2jAtGA4O2fDAbkpgTegXv5gsgWsNIecay4NvY= Received: by 10.82.106.14 with SMTP id e14mr27513118buc.38.1199695877726; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.159.19 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:51:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <14989d6e0801070051u4ccf2ae5oba77579674c1837d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:51:17 +0100 From: "Christian Walther" To: "Igor Mozolevsky" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <14989d6e0801062310q6992630et93370d5d2d0be2c7@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:51:19 -0000 Hello igor, On 07/01/2008, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 07/01/2008, Christian Walther wrote: > > > I don't think so. My guess is that partitioning/slicing disks is a > > pain for most of the users. How does one tell how big a filesystem > > should be, even or especially on the desktop? I found myself having to > > cope with full filesystems several times. > > That could be a good thing (think programs creating lots of files and > not cleaning up after themselves)... > > > Using ZFS even on one disk just to get rid of fixed partition/slice > > boundaries is a good thing. > > How is that different to creating one / slice of FFS? With ZFS there aren't fixed boundaries as there are with the slice/partition theme. You can use reservation and quota to determine how much free space is guaranteed for a ZFS and the maximum size a ZFS is allowed to grow to. If you feel that these boundaries/limitations aren't of any use anymore, changing/removing them is just a matter of "zfs set...". > Igor :-) Christian From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 09:08:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE6B16A417; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:08:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AE713C442; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:08:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE39C17105; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:08:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0798Z1D008681; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:08:35 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Kostik Belousov From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:48:29 +0200." <20080104134829.GA57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:08:35 +0000 Message-ID: <8680.1199696915@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , Jason Evans , Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:08:39 -0000 In message <20080104134829.GA57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua>, Kostik Belousov writes: >On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 02:12:50PM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: >> "Igor Mozolevsky" writes: >> > This makes memory management in the userland hideously and >> > unnecessarily complicated. It's simpler to have SIGDANGER [...] >> >> You don't seem to understand what Poul-Henning was trying to point out, >> which is that broadcasting SIGDANGER can make a bad situation much, much >> worse by waking up and paging in every single process in the system, > >By making the default action for SIGDANGER to be SIG_IGN, this problem >would be mostly solved. Only processes that actually care about SIGDANGER >and installing the handler for it would require some non-trivial and >resource-hungry operation. This is a non-starter, if SIGDANGER is to have any effect, all processes that use malloc(3) should react to it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 09:42:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527D616A418; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:42:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D7713C455; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:42:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DAB2089; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:42:50 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E518207E; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:42:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E55E4844AF; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:42:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Andrew Reilly References: <477C82F0.5060809@freebsd.org> <863ateemw2.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801032200.25650.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <8663yac62d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <477E72FC.5070304@freebsd.org> <477EA466.6060204@FreeBSD.org> <477EFEAB.8090807@freebsd.org> <20080107074209.5c20f083@duncan.reilly.home> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:42:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080107074209.5c20f083@duncan.reilly.home> (Andrew Reilly's message of "Mon\, 7 Jan 2008 07\:42\:09 +1100") Message-ID: <86ejcu7yzq.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Dag-Erling@des.no, =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8=40freebsd=2Eo?=@des.no, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3FISO-8859-1=3FQ=3Frg?=@des.no, Jason Evans , ?= Tim Kientzle , Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:42:58 -0000 Andrew Reilly writes: > Danny Braniss writes: > > what Apple has is one file, that will run the appropiate binary if > > run on an i386 or a ppc, not 2 different files - universal binary - > > not rosetta. > Sure, but that's got a bunch of different driving factors. I > don't know, for example, whether you can build a four-way > executable (ia32, x86_64, ppc, ppc64). Well, you probably can, > but I'd be a bit surprised if anyone has. FreeBSD supports even > more architectures: it just doesn't scale. Two-way i386 + amd64 executables would be very useful, since they can run on the same hardware with just a change of kernel. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 09:58:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF7316A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:58:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7A613C457 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:58:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m079wsbt019155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:58:55 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m079wsD0042696; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:58:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m079wrkU042695; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:58:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:58:53 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080104134829.GA57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <8680.1199696915@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4ybNbZnZ8tziJ7D6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8680.1199696915@critter.freebsd.dk> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Kostik Belousov , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:58:58 -0000 --4ybNbZnZ8tziJ7D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 09:08:35AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <20080104134829.GA57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua>, Kostik Belo= usov=20 >writes: >>By making the default action for SIGDANGER to be SIG_IGN, this problem >>would be mostly solved. Only processes that actually care about SIGDANGER >>and installing the handler for it would require some non-trivial and >>resource-hungry operation. > >This is a non-starter, if SIGDANGER is to have any effect, all >processes that use malloc(3) should react to it. This depends on what SIGDANGER is supposed to indicate. IMO, a single signal is inadequate - you need a "free memory is less than desirable, please reduce memory use if possible" and one (or maybe several levels of) "memory is really short, if you're not important, please die". The former could reasonably default to SIG_IGN - processes that are in a position to release memory on demand could provide a handler to do so. (This could potentially include malloc returning space on its freelist to the kernel). The latter should default to "terminate process" and a process that considers itself "important" enough can trap it. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --4ybNbZnZ8tziJ7D6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgffd/opHv/APuIcRArAEAJ4lZFneYuMnFjEFbamiQIjnzuxnvgCgsI3G 9cSYHSMUiNIDAbLiUHUauN4= =mByf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4ybNbZnZ8tziJ7D6-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 10:00:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B9316A469 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:00:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207DC13C45A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 9E28045E90; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:00:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (pjd.wheel.pl [10.0.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A44545EC0; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:59:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:59:53 +0100 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20080107095952.GA25096@garage.freebsd.pl> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.9 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:00:05 -0000 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 12:42:28PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: > Hi, >=20 > As far as I know about the details of implementation and what would it > take to fix the problems, is it safe to assume ZFS will never become > stable during 7.x lifetime? To sum up this thread, let me present ZFS status as of today. Before I do that, one explanation. I was away from FreeBSD for like 3-4 weeks, because of real life issues, etc. I hope, I'm now back for good. Let me also use this again to invite any interested committers to help working on ZFS (I'm inviting people to help from a day one). Ok. The most pressing issues currently are: 1. kmem_map exhaustion. 2. Low memory deadlocks in ZFS itself. I believe 2nd problem is already fixed in OpenSolaris, at least that was my impression when I made last integration, I need to double check. If that's true, I'll try to commit the fix before 7.0-RELEASE. The 1st problem has of course much wider audience. First of all you need: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/patches/vm_kern.c.2.patch The patch is not yet committed, because I was discussing better solutions with alc@. I don't think we (he) will be able to come up with something better before 7.0-RELEASE, so I'm going to ask re@ for approval for this patch today. Note that it is low risk change, because it is executed only in situation where the system will panic anyway. Of course it is so much better to use ZFS on 64bit systems, but it also works on i386. I'm running ZFS in production for many months on two i386 systems. One has 1GB memory and those tunning in loader.conf: vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable=3D1 vm.kmem_size=3D671088640 vm.kmem_size_max=3D671088640 I've three ZFS pools in here, no UFS at all. The load is rather light, serving large files. No panics. The second "production" box is my laptop. I've 2GB of RAM (it worked fine with 1GB too), but I do have 'options KVA_PAGES=3D512' in my kernel config and my loader.conf looks like this: vm.kmem_size=3D1073741824 vm.kmem_size_max=3D1073741824 vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable=3D1 My laptop is ZFS-only. No panics whatsoever. The box I'm running ZFS for the longest time is amd64 system with 1GB of RAM. This box is used for backups (ZFS snapshots are so damn handy) and guess what, I'm using rsync for backups:) It also serves files through NFS: beast:root:~# showmount -e | wc -l 31 ZFS is used heavly here: beast:root:~# zfs list -t filesystem | wc -l 50 beast:root:~# zfs list -t snapshot | wc -l 1029 And loader.conf: vm.kmem_size=3D629145600 vm.kmem_size_max=3D629145600 And again, rock stable. All my ZFS systems use vm_kern.c.2.patch. Of course all this doesn't mean ZFS works great on FreeBSD. No. It is still an experimental feature. I don't agree we should deny mounting ZFS on i386, etc. We can improve warning and even advise increasing KVA_PAGES on i386. It's too late to increase vm.kmem_size by default, as it can affect other parts of the system. ZFS also can't do it automatically. In my opinion people are panicing in this thread much more than ZFS:) Let try to think how we can warn people clearly about proper tunning and what proper tunning actually means. I think we should advise increasing KVA_PAGES on i386 and not only vm.kmem_size. We could also warn that running ZFS on 32bit systems is not generally recommended. Any other suggestions? --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgfgYForvXbEpPzQRAsTtAKCNMLpRQTwIGupmLeb3hYu+nLCNJQCfazFG tmrC1xoyabhNW4qZNdSt3uI= =W2E/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 10:05:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE6B16A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:05:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4651513C448 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:05:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25F717105; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m07A5LJH009114; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:05:22 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Peter Jeremy From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:58:53 +1100." <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:05:21 +0000 Message-ID: <9113.1199700321@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Kostik Belousov , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:05:24 -0000 In message <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org>, Peter Jeremy writes: >>This is a non-starter, if SIGDANGER is to have any effect, all >>processes that use malloc(3) should react to it. > >This depends on what SIGDANGER is supposed to indicate. IMO, a single >signal is inadequate - you need a "free memory is less than desirable, >please reduce memory use if possible" and one (or maybe several levels >of) "memory is really short, if you're not important, please die". That's what I have been advocating for the last 10 years... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 10:10:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E10A16A41A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:10:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthijs@katherina.student.utwente.nl) Received: from katherina.student.utwente.nl (katherina.student.ipv6.utwente.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1908:8000:210:4bff:fe91:cb70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E6613C467 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthijs@katherina.student.utwente.nl) Received: from matthijs by katherina.student.utwente.nl with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JBowU-0005MD-37; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:10:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:10:50 +0100 From: Matthijs Kooijman To: Frode Nordahl Message-ID: <20080107101050.GF20593@katherina.student.utwente.nl> References: <20060528173242.GC16530@katherina.student.utwente.nl> <9AB75EDF-A550-4823-B1F6-CA8AFFBC6821@nordahl.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FEz7ebHBGB6b2e8X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9AB75EDF-A550-4823-B1F6-CA8AFFBC6821@nordahl.net> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 7F6A 9F44 2820 18E2 18DE 24AA CF49 D0E6 8A2F AFBC X-PGP-Key: http://katherina.student.utwente.nl/~matthijs/gpg_pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-11) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD nss, getgroupmembership(3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:10:53 -0000 --FEz7ebHBGB6b2e8X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hey, a while back (or actually, more than a year back...) there was some discussion in this thread about implementing getgroupmembership support in FreeBSD NSS. FYI, Michael Bushkov has commited support for this a few weeks back based on work by me and largely by Michael Hanselmann. For now, there is no support yet in the nss_ldap and nss_winbind modules, but patches are already available. Support wil not be merged to 7.0, but hopefully it will be in 7.1. See pr 115196 [1] for more details about it, and links to the winbind/ldap patches. Gr. Matthijs [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/115196 --FEz7ebHBGB6b2e8X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHgfqqz0nQ5oovr7wRAsmdAKDG+MrDhlAUhPSoDIKOlJPveSmYWACbB+Uy O9vyiOJ2jxE2IwOZqETbsI4= =sRSv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FEz7ebHBGB6b2e8X-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 10:30:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11ED16A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:30:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D4E13C45A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:30:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7663282rvb.43 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=GLZ6f7IVZ/sf8ArfwgzH+kC/pnlVmin/1hSrjxseyaE=; b=mhllbKoAfTefE2LTskm0J5P5dtT35zV30J1wBgcutOV9KxUEdBWKfggplv8HATgjLD+ivwo771jwDiijC1qXSzu4F99TQ+RMzrN8LF0Na/sbxCSDu3zrThAZTX3lylc8FLDF0NftJMw5bC5gpu+ebPB9NoQXWHXNJ7XJYF30lKw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=IWkoYmfmo0KLOIlTFUKnEMrHx9mvAwO30aY8zv+QDgV9N9tAxWpfTO+ZceDM1vzre2b2VhW49VHjVwMBpk6LEqLAttOpLXMCWGh6OgiGFrydDwPzpUxwcSjrJCbpO+0gSmcgyaEwdsreYpz75uHxWX2TAtPuKxwfIzzUEFxvgmA= Received: by 10.140.172.6 with SMTP id u6mr10451493rve.192.1199701805296; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:30:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801070230k14f6x567c8caf75d4944d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:30:05 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "Pawel Jakub Dawidek" In-Reply-To: <20080107095952.GA25096@garage.freebsd.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080107095952.GA25096@garage.freebsd.pl> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c1942de9d2b8ab27 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:30:06 -0000 On 07/01/2008, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > Let try to think how we can warn people clearly about proper tunning and > what proper tunning actually means. I think we should advise increasing > KVA_PAGES on i386 and not only vm.kmem_size. We could also warn that > running ZFS on 32bit systems is not generally recommended. Any other > suggestions? I'd suggest we do give all three warnings (KVA_PAGES, kmem_size, i386) at once, preferably both when the ZFS module loads and when a zpool is created. I think it's important that the tree pieces of information be given at the same time so the user doesn't need to hunt solutions after panics. Your comment that people are panicking more than ZFS is correct, but that illustrates the importance people give to having file system not crash on them :) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 10:45:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9700616A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:45:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frode@nordahl.net) Received: from smtp2.powertech.no (smtp2.powertech.no [195.159.0.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B89713C474 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:45:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frode@nordahl.net) Received: from dhcp7.xu.nordahl.net (dhcp7.xu.nordahl.net [195.159.148.126]) by smtp2.powertech.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07857C1491; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:21:07 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <19D4AA5E-E076-4E70-A8B7-C9E2992C64D6@nordahl.net> From: Frode Nordahl To: Matthijs Kooijman In-Reply-To: <20080107101050.GF20593@katherina.student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:21:09 +0100 References: <20060528173242.GC16530@katherina.student.utwente.nl> <9AB75EDF-A550-4823-B1F6-CA8AFFBC6821@nordahl.net> <20080107101050.GF20593@katherina.student.utwente.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD nss, getgroupmembership(3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:45:24 -0000 On 7. jan.. 2008, at 11.10, Matthijs Kooijman wrote: > a while back (or actually, more than a year back...) there was some > discussion > in this thread about implementing getgroupmembership support in > FreeBSD NSS. > > FYI, Michael Bushkov has commited support for this a few weeks back > based on > work by me and largely by Michael Hanselmann. For now, there is no > support yet > in the nss_ldap and nss_winbind modules, but patches are already > available. > > Support wil not be merged to 7.0, but hopefully it will be in 7.1. > > See pr 115196 [1] for more details about it, and links to the > winbind/ldap patches. > > Gr. > > Matthijs > > [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/115196 Thank you for letting me know, this is fantastic!! :-) A big thank you to everyone involved in making this happen. I will attempt to put this to test in a production system in good time before 7.1 so any issues can be resolved before release. Any chance the patch will apply on 6.x? -- Frode Nordahl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 12:05:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F227C16A468 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9164E13C467 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 81C851B10EF8; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:05:29 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on blah.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from hater.haters.org (hater.cmotd.com [192.168.3.125]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E0A1B10ED2; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:05:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47821585.10804@moneybookers.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:05:25 +0200 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071120) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Barner References: <472E9D0B.5080409@csub.edu> <20071106002940.GB1817@styx.ethz.ch> <472FD321.3010509@nortel.com> <20071108132222.GC1674@dose.local.invalid> <47334C71.1010102@nortel.com> <20071108224313.GA1927@dose.local.invalid> In-Reply-To: <20071108224313.GA1927@dose.local.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5414/Mon Jan 7 11:46:11 2008 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Benjamin Lutz , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Matus Harvan Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:05:32 -0000 Hi, This problems is still not fixed in 7.0-RC1 Simon Barner wrote: >>> Please see kern/114722. The patch from the PR works fine with my >>> T61 (T7300). >>> >>> Funny enough, I contacted re@ to get this into 7.0 only two minutes ago. >>> >>> For the archives, the similar bug described in bin/117375 already seems >>> to be adressed in RELENG_7. >>> >> both pr's are open .. and >> >> releng_7 and head are both at v 1.26 of acpi_perf.c >> >> so, no it's not fixed, *anywhere*. :) >> > > It's true that both PRs are still open, but: > > 1) kern/114722 should fix your problem (CPUFREQ_CMP takes care of almost > identical frequencies). Have you already had a chance to verify that? > I can confirm that this patch solves the problem on my HP Compaq 8510w Can we have this fixed before RC2 ? > 2) bin/117375 talks about exactly identical frequencies, which should be > handled by acpi_perf.c (1.26, line 303-306). However, the reporter > (Cc'ed) of that PR runs FreeBSD 6.2-p8 which already contains the > removal of duplicate entries (MFC from acpi_perf.c 1.24). > > @Benjamin Lutz: Could you please check if the problem still exists, and > if so, whether the patch from kern/114722 fixes it? > > -- Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 12:24:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD4A16A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:24:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8324F13C461 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:24:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 9674E1B10EF3; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:24:51 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on blah.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, J_CHICKENPOX_51 autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from hater.haters.org (hater.cmotd.com [192.168.3.125]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B5F1B10EA4; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:24:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47821A0B.7020301@moneybookers.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:24:43 +0200 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071120) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Paetzel References: <200801061102.46233.josh@tcbug.org> In-Reply-To: <200801061102.46233.josh@tcbug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5414/Mon Jan 7 11:46:11 2008 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: state of 7.0-RC1 on an IBM t60p X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:24:53 -0000 Hi Josh, Josh Paetzel wrote: > I recently installed FBSD 7.0-BETA4 on my laptop in an effort to get working > intel 3945abg wireless. I bumped it up to 7.0-RC1 the other day. I've been > in a bit of a state health wise and have gotten to the point where i need to > depend on my laptop, so it has to go back to releng_6, but I thought I'd > write out the problems I've been having. > > 1) wpi is nearly non-functional. It seems to associate best to WPA2 networks, > struggles with WEP and won't associate at all to open networks. Once it's > associated it spams the console with "discarding packet without header" > and "wpi_cmd: couldn't set tx power" quite a bit, as well as other random > output. The real problem I've had with it is that it panics under moderate > data rates, in the 1000-1500K/sec range. > You can try the latest wpi driver from perforce - http://www.clearchain.com/wiki/Wpi Also you can disable debugging. > 2) pantech px-500 evdo pccard. This thing uses the ucom/umodem driver and > panics after a few seconds of transfer at anything over 30K/sec or so. It > also panics instantly on insertion or removal. I've been unable to get a > crash dump or to the debugger for this, my swap is encrypted and seeming gets > cleared before savecore runs, and i've been unable to dump to usb swap > devices. (The card is a pccard that has a usb controller with a usb-> serial > adapter on it) > I'm using http://www.turbocat.net/~hselasky/usb4bsd/index.html, which fixed same problems for me (with other hardware). > 3) sutdown output is garbled. This doesn't seem to hurt anything, but at > some point in shutdown the console messages start interleaving. > First time I saw this in RC1 - never with 7-CURRENT or -BETAX (I'm talking only about shutdown messages, not boot messages) > 4) acpi suspend and resume doesn't work, but that's not a huge shock.l > > 5) ath generates interrupt storms that are throttled. > Sorry, I do not have idea how to fix this. > console output snippet.... > > wpi0: link state changed to UP > wpi0: could not set power mode > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy > wpi0: could not set power mode > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 151 not sent, busy > wpi0: could not adjust Tx power > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 72 not sent, busy > wpi0: link state changed to DOWN > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy > wpi0: could not set power mode > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 119 not sent, busy > wpi0: could not set power mode > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 72 not sent, busy > wpi0: wpi_cmd: cmd 16 not sent, busy > wpi0: could not configure > wpi0: could not send authentication request > ath0: mem 0x88000000-0x8800ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on > cardbus0 > ath0: [ITHREAD] > ath0: using obsoleted if_watchdog interface > ath0: Ethernet address: 00:1b:2f:5e:fa:d7 > ath0: mac 7.9 phy 4.5 radio 5.6 > interrupt storm detected on "irq16:"; throttling interrupt source > > Hopefully soon I'll be in a better position to help debug and troubleshoot, > for now all I can do is enumerate my issues. > > dmesg and stuff attached... > > -- Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:15:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B480B16A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:15:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4532513C448 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:15:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so4278292uge.37 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=QSbyBtC+ahiGDY0ByClm58iEwfZYr1bLrpcM/uMQCu0=; b=gTevBbhoSmbFH9nxVITz5lrWUGC4mojjGutlz3nrLWh3myuBbHTgiPRr/7XI8hnuBDvZ3Q8kZFUIbtx9ylz+3ryMhBkK7IKGnqqYgWN7nJicZyXYy96WdHA6Bh8ylH4Xj2PuNg3Ke5wDZQ45RLDFxRz33Te5QssE9MgQHcuvGQY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sreM7OesvKJLqUbk3cVfmG7setsk2yVGQOsI3n0dmSwkKBtfJoe581U/RJjyvD8PpcqvLSE4CA7q+0bMQ3mWBIOdMJzPiGB3R0zUw6lEVMxyw6dAw4y7hClmsKxxzRiVmowD9P+W9AQA89SdMmKmtt7NAj0x6PCgy8IYxu1s+wo= Received: by 10.67.115.17 with SMTP id s17mr7383945ugm.56.1199711728684; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:15:28 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: <9113.1199700321@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <9113.1199700321@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b093fe48d4d218b6 Cc: Kostik Belousov , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:15:30 -0000 On 07/01/2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org>, Peter Jeremy writes: > > >>This is a non-starter, if SIGDANGER is to have any effect, all > >>processes that use malloc(3) should react to it. > > > >This depends on what SIGDANGER is supposed to indicate. IMO, a single > >signal is inadequate - you need a "free memory is less than desirable, > >please reduce memory use if possible" and one (or maybe several levels > >of) "memory is really short, if you're not important, please die". > > That's what I have been advocating for the last 10 years... That makes the userland side of unnecessarily overcomplicated. If a process handles SIGDANGER then let it do so and assume it's important enough to be left alone, if a process doesn't handle SIGDANGER then send SIGTERM to them then SIGKILL; but in any case SIGTERM *should* precede SIGKILL - the processes ought to be allowed to terminate gracefully. Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:17:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE62116A420 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:17:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC0813C45A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:17:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so4278653uge.37 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 05:17:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=30sBBFxlobMR/GEzAMZ+CXI9Dpl9e2YnopWwokrU5k0=; b=Df7OtlaeySNkxXdly3zYSgFPzOnLEOC3rZt9VOEYpXm/Q45Q4GfiZfvyVli9AHxdWoIK9KkD7wWeHrQg0n0HzRF/S9m8NzEgaiAMQBSMVa6kSfHzP8QxtBfinlQdih9W8eVtLleffSDPRNYqQYR0SlErpVasXPipN3VK2kV2I2U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QQBstDWQejAIWafbUMepIiJc9uNTdpUvdaAO/6S5iQ8sjulmfYNvi8ewodoyuapMtE5DIbA/P+zI/KwdWMVyXZ4MVa0LPtfBq0+OPEcxmSjUfLB9DlUO7zdsWsGndvNTyjFxkzERY5UaPs44S44W1sVp0vzOkBkb39BDLZ1gSoM= Received: by 10.67.115.4 with SMTP id s4mr899350ugm.41.1199711872490; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 05:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:17:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:17:51 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Ivan Voras" In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801070230k14f6x567c8caf75d4944d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080107095952.GA25096@garage.freebsd.pl> <9bbcef730801070230k14f6x567c8caf75d4944d@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0fd6f828c9de5490 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pawel Jakub Dawidek Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:17:54 -0000 On 07/01/2008, Ivan Voras wrote: > Your comment that people are panicking more than ZFS is correct, but > that illustrates the importance people give to having file system not > crash on them :) Having read the thread and people's reasons for using the ZFS, it does seem that they are trying to use ZFS to solve non-problem problems, especially that someone commented that they use 1:10 kmem:HD space ratio! Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:18:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269A416A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:18:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B5413C467 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AA817105; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:18:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m07DIlTf010320; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:18:47 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Igor Mozolevsky" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:15:28 GMT." Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:47 +0000 Message-ID: <10319.1199711927@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Kostik Belousov , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:50 -0000 In message , "Igor Mozolevsky" writes: >On 07/01/2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message <20080107095853.GR947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org>, Peter Jeremy writes: >> >> >>This is a non-starter, if SIGDANGER is to have any effect, all >> >>processes that use malloc(3) should react to it. >> > >> >This depends on what SIGDANGER is supposed to indicate. IMO, a single >> >signal is inadequate - you need a "free memory is less than desirable, >> >please reduce memory use if possible" and one (or maybe several levels >> >of) "memory is really short, if you're not important, please die". >> >> That's what I have been advocating for the last 10 years... > >That makes the userland side of unnecessarily overcomplicated. Yes, but you will not see this complication, it will be hidden in the implementation of malloc(3). Every problem has a simple, easy to understand solution that does not work. SIGDANGER is one of these. It didn't work any good on AIX and it won't do so on FreeBSD either. The problem simply requires more than one bit of feedback information to get a sensible regulation. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:20:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DDD16A41A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from cs1.cs.huji.ac.il (cs1.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC0113C448 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32]) by cs1.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1JBruN-0008Ew-Dk; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:20:51 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.2 To: Frode Nordahl In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:21:09 +0100 . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:20:51 +0200 From: Danny Braniss Message-ID: Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Matthijs Kooijman Subject: Re: FreeBSD nss, getgroupmembership(3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:20:53 -0000 > On 7. jan.. 2008, at 11.10, Matthijs Kooijman wrote: > > > a while back (or actually, more than a year back...) there was some > > discussion > > in this thread about implementing getgroupmembership support in > > FreeBSD NSS. > > > > FYI, Michael Bushkov has commited support for this a few weeks back > > based on > > work by me and largely by Michael Hanselmann. For now, there is no > > support yet > > in the nss_ldap and nss_winbind modules, but patches are already > > available. > > > > Support wil not be merged to 7.0, but hopefully it will be in 7.1. > > > > See pr 115196 [1] for more details about it, and links to the > > winbind/ldap patches. > > > > Gr. > > > > Matthijs > > > > [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/115196 > > Thank you for letting me know, this is fantastic!! :-) A big thank you > to everyone involved in making this happen. > > I will attempt to put this to test in a production system in good time > before 7.1 so any issues can be resolved before release. > > Any chance the patch will apply on 6.x? > > -- > Frode Nordahl > sorry if this sounds like a party-poopper but: 1- why not just fix getgrouplist instead of inventing getgroupmembership? (the patch replaces the code of getgrouplist by a call to getgroupmembership anyways) 2- why not just make a new table, with key uid/username and with data the list of groups? this is what we have here, the list is autogenerated each time the main password file and/or group are modified. this reduces network noice and cycles conciderably. danny From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:34:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DEE16A421 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:34:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frode@nordahl.net) Received: from smtp2.powertech.no (smtp2.powertech.no [195.159.0.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AF313C461 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:34:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frode@nordahl.net) Received: from dhcp7.xu.nordahl.net (dhcp7.xu.nordahl.net [195.159.148.126]) by smtp2.powertech.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0BFC0406; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:34:23 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <69C7D49A-395D-4330-B13C-14975766D0AB@nordahl.net> From: Frode Nordahl To: Danny Braniss In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:34:25 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD nss, getgroupmembership(3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:34:25 -0000 On 7. jan.. 2008, at 14.20, Danny Braniss wrote: >> On 7. jan.. 2008, at 11.10, Matthijs Kooijman wrote: >> >>> a while back (or actually, more than a year back...) there was some >>> discussion >>> in this thread about implementing getgroupmembership support in >>> FreeBSD NSS. >>> >>> FYI, Michael Bushkov has commited support for this a few weeks back >>> based on >>> work by me and largely by Michael Hanselmann. For now, there is no >>> support yet >>> in the nss_ldap and nss_winbind modules, but patches are already >>> available. >>> >>> Support wil not be merged to 7.0, but hopefully it will be in 7.1. >>> >>> See pr 115196 [1] for more details about it, and links to the >>> winbind/ldap patches. >>> >>> Gr. >>> >>> Matthijs >>> >>> [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/115196 >> >> Thank you for letting me know, this is fantastic!! :-) A big thank >> you >> to everyone involved in making this happen. >> >> I will attempt to put this to test in a production system in good >> time >> before 7.1 so any issues can be resolved before release. >> >> Any chance the patch will apply on 6.x? >> >> -- >> Frode Nordahl >> > > sorry if this sounds like a party-poopper but: > > 1- why not just fix getgrouplist instead of inventing > getgroupmembership? > (the patch replaces the code of getgrouplist by a call to > getgroupmembership anyways) http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-userlevel/2004/12/01/0001.html > 2- why not just make a new table, with key uid/username and with > data the list > of groups? > this is what we have here, the list is autogenerated each time the > main > password file > and/or group are modified. this reduces network noice and cycles > conciderably. I can query the LDAP database with a username and get a list of groups effectively, but there is no existing API that can make use of this. See the above link for discussion and reasons for adding getgroupmembership instead of altering existing APIs. -- Frode Nordahl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 13:44:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038DE16A421 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:44:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FA413C45D for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:44:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94882099; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:44:00 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9D6207E; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:44:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 35DA9844AF; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:44:00 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Matthew Dillon References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:44:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> (Matthew Dillon's message of "Thu\, 3 Jan 2008 15\:34\:07 -0800 \(PST\)") Message-ID: <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Mikhail Teterin , efinleywork@efinley.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:44:11 -0000 Matthew Dillon writes: > Well, that description of DragonFly isn't really accurate any more, > we're about as close to FreeBSD 4 as FreeBSD 7 is... [...] > > I froze all the softupdates work in DragonFly prior to the snapshot > code, and have not performed or allowed any new softupdates work to be > ported over since then, only bug fixes. [...] > > DragonFly has a new filesystem called HAMMER in the works which should > become production ready in a few months. [...] OK, so you reject softupdates because it took time to mature and you assume it stopped improving when you stopped paying attention. How long do you think it will take for HAMMER to mature? Realistically? How long will HAMMER be "a huge source of bugs in the system" before it stabilizes? Think back to when you started DragonFly. How soon did you expect it to overtake FreeBSD in SMP performance? And how long did it actually take? Actually, it never happened - DrangonFly doesn't scale at all across multiple cores, while FreeBSD 7 leads the pack. Perhaps you should adjust your expectations a bit. I don't doubt that HAMMER will be a very interesting file system when it's stable, but I doubt very much that will happen any time soon. In fact, I think it will take about as long for HAMMER to mature as it took for softupdates and SMPng. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 14:04:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361A516A419; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:04:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B8613C478; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:04:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBFE2089; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:04:37 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722BE2049; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:04:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5707E84490; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:04:37 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Ivan Voras References: Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:04:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Ivan Voras's message of "Fri\, 04 Jan 2008 12\:42\:28 +0100") Message-ID: <86y7b168ay.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:04:47 -0000 Ivan Voras writes: > As far as I know about the details of implementation and what would it > take to fix the problems, is it safe to assume ZFS will never become > stable during 7.x lifetime? Have you heard of the logical fallacy called "plurium interrogationum"? You may not be familiar with the phrase (which is Latin for "multiple questions"), but it's what you're doing here: asking a question which is impossible to answer truthfully because it is based on an incorrect premise, and to answer the question correctly you must first discuss the premise. It's a favorite Hollywood plot device, because you can have the smart-aleck lawyer interrupt the confused witness and insist on a yes or no answer, forcing the witness to implicitly agree with the premise. I doubt it would work in a real-life court, though, because judges tend to be smart people. But I digress. Your question is based on the premise that ZFS in FreeBSD 7 is unstable. That premise is false. There are issues with auto-tuning of certain parameters, which can cause kmem exhaustion, but they are easily worked around by setting a few tunables. It has worked very well for me (raidz, 1.2 TB pool, 4 GB RAM, ~60 file systems and twice as many snapshots) after I added the following lines to loader.conf: vm.kmem_size=3D"1G" vfs.zfs.arc_min=3D"64M" vfs.zfs.arc_max=3D"512M" DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 14:37:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D8B16A46B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:37:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF8913C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:37:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so7735430rvb.43 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:37:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=vgPfWmALoUTJzc6EYUzRJx99x4ZfzNwmdSljyVNJnBg=; b=mi4AcK70zrRlTtQmkouuqTzBs8DwmdFKmo3JwLwWBkeSWCHFt+eVNINaUG5tIrnacPWW/xWWZr5MJF06bnaV6CVJ+4sNK4NhAooW9ZA+ldPX+nY25E/CjhA15vAlU+78ZzHyCHZsqded2gOjJv6bOKF6WBJFPwgWn6G1ZM6edk0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dP8uVEo51IYFf2IbQUBSJEwHz0d4ol99E0hlJlVTc5SwQaTvyhrK1Hjf1iGeDUcfPykotv6BXWRL3kXz/oUqUJ9Q7rlXvn0ul7pUcFz4TD0eKaRIiO6nKGRHtBJk4PpJJB2kAZYm9zo+JJtYQnkpmtk877g9yBo9wXaCZWSXr+A= Received: by 10.141.27.16 with SMTP id e16mr397058rvj.141.1199716646304; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:37:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801070637v6db39e97o34b89b10dad75617@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:37:26 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <86y7b168ay.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <86y7b168ay.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 106a1f18c92ec3d3 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:37:27 -0000 T24gMDcvMDEvMjAwOCwgRGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXYgPGRlc0BkZXMubm8+IHdyb3RlOgoK PiBZb3VyIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzIGJhc2VkIG9uIHRoZSBwcmVtaXNlIHRoYXQgWkZTIGluIEZyZWVC U0QgNyBpcyB1bnN0YWJsZS4KPiBUaGF0IHByZW1pc2UgaXMgZmFsc2UuCgpBdCBtb3N0LCB3ZSds bCBoYXZlIHRvIGFncmVlIHRvIGRpc2FncmVlLiBBICJ0dW5pbmciIG9mIHRoZSBzeXN0ZW0gKGF0 CmxlYXN0IGZyb20gbXkgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSkgaXMgYWJvdXQgc3lzdGVtIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlLCBu b3Qgd2hldGhlciB0aGUKc3lzdGVtIHdpbGwgY3Jhc2ggb3Igbm90LiBZb3UgbWF5IGRlZmluZSB0 aGUgd29yZCB0byBtZWFuIHNvbWV0aGluZwplbHNlIGJ1dCB0aGF0J3MgeW91ciB0aGluZy4KClRo ZSByZWFzb24gSSdtIGFnZ3Jlc3NpdmVseSBkaXNjdXNzaW5nIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhhdCBsYWJlbGlu ZyB0aGUKcHJvYmxlbSBhcyAidHVuaW5nIiB3aWxsLCBmb3IgYW55IG5vbi10cml2aWFsIHRhc2sg d2hpY2ggaGFzIHNvbWUKZ3Jvd3RoIGluIHN5c3RlbSBsb2FkLCByZXN1bHQgaW4gYSBzZXJ2ZXIg dGhhdCBuZWVkcyBjb25zdGFudCB0dW5pbmcKanVzdCB0byBzdXJ2aXZlIGFub3RoZXIgZGF5LiBX aGF0IGlzIHR1bmVkIHRvZGF5IG1heSBhcyB3ZWxsIHJlc3VsdCBpbgphIGNyYXNoIHRvbW9ycm93 IGlmIHRoZSBsb2FkIHJpc2VzLiBXZWIgc2VydmVycyBhcmUgbm90b3Jpb3VzIGZvciB0aGlzCih0 aG91Z2ggb3RoZXIgdHlwZXMgaGF2ZSBvZiBjb3Vyc2Ugc2ltaWxhciBiZWhhdmlvdXIpIC0gYQoi c2xhc2hkb3R0aW5nIiBvZiBhICJwcm9wZXJseSB0dW5lZCIgRnJlZUJTRCBzeXN0ZW0gd2l0aCBa RlMgd2lsbCBub3QKcmVzdWx0IGluIGEgc2xvd2Rvd24gLSBpdCB3aWxsIHJlc3VsdCBpbiB0aGUg c3lzdGVtIGNyYXNoaW5nLiBUaGlzIGlzCm5vdCBhY2NlcHRhYmxlLCBhbmQgdGhlcmVmb3JlIGRp c21pc3NpbmcgaXQgYXMgImp1c3QgdHVuaW5nIiBpcwpjb3VudGVycHJvZHVjdGl2ZSBhbmQgYmFk IGVuZ2luZWVyaW5nLgo= From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 14:52:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D160216A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:52:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from hu-out-0506.google.com (hu-out-0506.google.com [72.14.214.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474D613C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:52:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 28so1168929hub.8 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:52:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=pB+mB6wZnz6XN2rVdrQWgsdu2cGITtEhLJKGt3tG63o=; b=m6Iu0xWIryLUg9fZ2A+71EIkvM4VRJLQgBBKMZNwl+jbgMGiijHYbq0YHH0aQodIUCBAvYmHAsEpaWEk6ePy/ykulUz0OCUhqPqq9KJ/sz3sQ8/2uP79F4+4e2KiqHTigErudokHjawD0L5JqRvYqbGjFmwd2Bhy6PETtHMjcVg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=J6dOLThp4J5Q5mB+2Uyk5oZtmC7hDaHngra3GBT1e32iuBhkhlNnTZz5Sb0FgPy1nX/B6I9c+NwVQd+mGrAo5txwi/NynlNxYnVtzm9cXqZrTkVA0CK4sXBeFKzq1tUBaT8ni+25F/IuAtTFBjp3t4lIXR1eWi0DO/su35S4Eds= Received: by 10.78.151.3 with SMTP id y3mr23102505hud.65.1199717537571; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:52:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0801070652i35643585k9ca5d55125d55ce9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:52:17 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Maxim Sobolev" In-Reply-To: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Gary Corcoran , Ivan Voras , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:52:19 -0000 As someone who's been running ZFS happilly ever since pjd committed it to CURRENT early 2007 on i386 with 1GB of RAM I would definitly say NO! Put up warnings, banners and whatever you want but disabling it just because some users had some panics or just haven't given up time to tune their system (I'm all in favor of auto tunning here) just doesn't seem reason enough for me to limit other people's choices. I've listed it before but again for the record: i386 Xeon, 1GB RAM 4x320GB RAIDZ with root on zfs zil enabled, prefetching disabled to improve video play Shared via NFS and Samba cat /boot/loader.conf zfs_load="YES" vfs.root.mountfrom="zfs:r4x320" vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable=1 That's it on my loader.conf and for months now I haven't seen a panic. Why should I or anyone else happilly running ZFS on i386 be denied of doing so? On Jan 6, 2008 9:56 PM, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Gary Corcoran wrote: > > Perhaps the 7.0 release notes should include a note to the effect that > > ZFS is *strongly* NOT RECOMMENDED on 32-bit systems at this time, due > > By watching this and other threads on ZFS and reading Sun's own design > papers I am getting strong impression that this should be even more > strong than strong NOT RECOMMENDED. Perhaps ZFS should BE DISALLOWED to > run on i386 at all (unless one does some manual source code tweaking or > something like this, and hence can ask no official support from the > project). > > I believe that 95% of hardware today that realistically is capable of > running ZFS is also capable of running 64bit code, so that potential ZFS > users are far better off switching to FreeBSD/amd64 and help > testing/improving that architecture than fighting architectural > limitations of already dying i386. And we are as a project are better > off too, by spending out limited resources on something that has future. > > From my own experience FreeBSD/amd64 is quite mature for running most > if not all of the server tasks today and ZFS is first and foremost a > server FS. The only place where FreeBSD/i386 beats FreeBSD/amd64 is > desktop, due to binary drivers and such, but ZFS is almost useless > there. So that by simply officially disallowing ZFS on FreeBSD/i386 we > could win by a great margin. > > Just my CAD0.02. > > -Maxim > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 14:59:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1248216A41B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:59:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E8513C47E for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:59:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA862099; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:58:54 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29AD2049; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:58:53 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id ACA2684492; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:58:53 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Vadim Goncharov" References: <20080104192820.GM947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080105011027.GA21334@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:58:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Vadim Goncharov's message of "Sat\, 05 Jan 2008 20\:44\:10 +0600") Message-ID: <86tzlp65si.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Peter Jeremy , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "advocacy@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: sbrk(2), OOM-killer and malloc() overcommit X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:59:03 -0000 "Vadim Goncharov" writes: > There were case in our town when on heavy loaded web-server apache > processes were dying on memory pressure - aforementioned man said that > was due to overcommit and OOM killer working. Well, technically, it was because the server didn't have enough RAM for the workload it was given. Turning off memory overcommit wouldn't fix that, it would just change the symptoms. I don't know of a single server OS that doesn't overcommit memory. The only difference between them is how they behave once the shit hits the fan. Anyway, as somebody else mentioned, the details are in the archives - if you don't know enough English to find them there, I don't see how having them summarized in English will help. If the language barrier really is a problem, ask someone who speaks your language to help you. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:01:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C58316A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mikej@paymentallianceintl.com) Received: from mx2.confluenttech.com (mx2.confluentasp.com [216.26.153.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B9F13C44B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mikej@paymentallianceintl.com) Received: from calvin.pai.local ([10.0.6.33]) by mx2.confluenttech.com (8.14.1/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m07F0s7c036041; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:00:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mikej@paymentallianceintl.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.4133 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:01:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4764D847.5040701@samsco.org> Importance: normal Priority: normal X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: 7.0-BETA4 - witness_warn on boot Thread-Index: Acg/uDbOpwUBXVGAQqeGfzkrTNmy2QRheSQw References: <4764D847.5040701@samsco.org> From: "Michael Jung" To: "Scott Long" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: 7.0-BETA4 - witness_warn on boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:01:49 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Scott Long [mailto:scottl@samsco.org] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:48 AM To: Michael Jung Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 7.0-BETA4 - witness_warn on boot This simple patch should fix it. This code path is pretty rare, though, I'm frankly shocked that you're running into it. --- cam_xpt.c 20 Oct 2007 23:23:12 -0000 1.191 +++ cam_xpt.c 16 Dec 2007 07:46:22 -0000 @@ -3862,6 +3862,7 @@ &work_ccb->ccb_h, xpt_links.stqe); + mtx_unlock(&xsoftc.xpt_lock); continue; } else { /* Scott Michael Jung wrote: > I was running 7.0-BETA4 and had problems with SEG_FAULT 12 in g_up so > I rebuilt a stock GENERIC kernel with these additional options: > > > > options KDB > > option DDB > > options INVARIANTS > > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT > > options WITNESS > > options DEBUG_LOCKS > > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS > > options DIAGNOSTIC > > > > Here is the build date: > > > > FreeBSD charon.confluentasp.com 7.0-BETA4 FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #6: Tue > Dec > 11 09:05:50 EST 2007 > mikej@charon.confluentasp.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/CHARON i386 > > (I cvsup'd source on this day just prior to kernel build - > tag=RELENG_7) > > > > Now when my SCSI array is plugged into the AHA-2944 controller the > kernel panics on boot. If the array is not plugged > > into the controller the system boots and runs fine. > > > > I've read the handbook and tried to follow what posts I read as to > what would be of use in trouble shooting this. > > Please don't shoot the messenger. I'll be glad to supply and > additional information - this box is not in production > > so I'm willing to try anything. > > > > Just to note, the controller and array had been in production under > 6.2-RELEASE and prior versions and has been running > > for years without any problems. > > > > Thanks. > > > > --mikej > > > > KDB: debugger backends: ddb > > KDB: current backend: ddb > > Copyright (c) 1992-2007 The FreeBSD Project. > > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, > 1994 > > The Regents of the University of California. All rights > reserved. > > FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. > > FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #6: Tue Dec 11 09:05:50 EST 2007 > > mikej@charon.confluentasp.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/CHARON > > WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. > > WARNING: DIAGNOSTIC option enabled, expect reduced performance. > > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > > CPU: Mobile AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3000+ (1799.81-MHz 686-class > CPU) > > Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x20fc2 Stepping = 2 > > > Features=0x78bfbff E, MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2> > > Features2=0x1 > > AMD Features=0xc2500800 > > AMD Features2=0x1 > > real memory = 1005453312 (958 MB) > > avail memory = 969691136 (924 MB) > > ACPI APIC Table: > > WITNESS: spin lock intrcnt not in order list > > ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard > > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > > ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, > RF5413) > > acpi0: on motherboard > > acpi0: [ITHREAD] > > acpi0: Power Button (fixed) > > acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed > > acpi0: reservation of 100000, 3bde0000 (3) failed > > Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000 > > acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x4008-0x400b on acpi0 > > cpu0: on acpi0 > > powernow0: on cpu0 > > acpi_button0: on acpi0 > > acpi_button1: on acpi0 > > pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 > > pci0: on pcib0 > > agp0: on hostb0 > > pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 > > pci1: on pcib1 > > vgapci0: mem > 0xf0000000-0xf3ffffff,0xf4000000-0xf4ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on > pci1 > > pcib2: at device 8.0 on pci0 > > pci2: on pcib2 > > ahc0: port 0xc000-0xc0ff mem > 0xf6013000-0xf6013fff irq 16 at device 4.0 on pci2 > > ahc0: [ITHREAD] > > aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs > > ahc1: port 0xc400-0xc4ff mem > 0xf6010000-0xf6010fff irq 17 at device 5.0 on pci2 > > ahc1: [ITHREAD] > > aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs > > ahc2: port 0xc800-0xc8ff mem > 0xf6011000-0xf6011fff irq 18 at device 6.0 on pci2 > > ahc2: [ITHREAD] > > aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs > > ahc3: port 0xcc00-0xccff mem > 0xf6012000-0xf6012fff irq 19 at device 7.0 on pci2 > > ahc3: [ITHREAD] > > aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs > > atapci0: port > 0xe100-0xe107,0xe700-0xe703,0xe800-0xe807,0xe900-0xe903,0xe000-0xe00f, > 0x d000-0xd0ff irq 20 at device 15.0 on pci0 > > atapci0: [ITHREAD] > > ata2: on atapci0 > > ata2: [ITHREAD] > > ata3: on atapci0 > > ata3: [ITHREAD] > > atapci1: port > 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xe200-0xe20f at device 15.1 on > pci0 > > ata0: on atapci1 > > ata0: [ITHREAD] > > ata1: on atapci1 > > ata1: [ITHREAD] > > uhci0: port 0xe300-0xe31f irq 21 at device > 16.0 on pci0 > > uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > uhci0: [ITHREAD] > > usb0: on uhci0 > > usb0: USB revision 1.0 > > uhub0: on usb0 > > uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered > > uhci1: port 0xe400-0xe41f irq 21 at device > 16.1 on pci0 > > uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > uhci1: [ITHREAD] > > usb1: on uhci1 > > usb1: USB revision 1.0 > > uhub1: on usb1 > > uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered > > uhci2: port 0xe500-0xe51f irq 21 at device > 16.2 on pci0 > > uhci2: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > uhci2: [ITHREAD] > > usb2: on uhci2 > > usb2: USB revision 1.0 > > uhub2: on usb2 > > uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered > > uhci3: port 0xe600-0xe61f irq 21 at device > 16.3 on pci0 > > uhci3: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > uhci3: [ITHREAD] > > usb3: on uhci3 > > usb3: USB revision 1.0 > > uhub3: on usb3 > > uhub3: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered > > ehci0: mem 0xf6100000-0xf61000ff irq > 21 at device 16.4 on pci0 > > ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > ehci0: [ITHREAD] > > usb4: EHCI version 1.0 > > usb4: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2 usb3 > > usb4: on ehci0 > > usb4: USB revision 2.0 > > uhub4: on usb4 > > uhub4: 8 ports with 8 removable, self powered > > isab0: at device 17.0 on pci0 > > isa0: on isab0 > > pci0: at device 17.5 (no driver attached) > > vr0: port 0xdc00-0xdcff mem > 0xf6101000-0xf61010ff irq 23 at device 18.0 on pci0 > > vr0: Quirks: 0x0 > > miibus0: on vr0 > > rlphy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 > > rlphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > vr0: using obsoleted if_watchdog interface > > vr0: Ethernet address: 00:e0:4d:0a:1b:e6 > > vr0: [ITHREAD] > > acpi_tz0: on acpi0 > > fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on > acpi0 > > fdc0: [FILTER] > > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > > sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 > > sio0: port may not be enabled > > sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 > > sio0: port may not be enabled > > sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 > on acpi0 > > sio0: type 16550A, console > > sio0: [FILTER] > > atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 > > atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 > > kbd0 at atkbd0 > > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > atkbd0: [ITHREAD] > > psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 > > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > psm0: [ITHREAD] > > psm0: model IntelliMouse, device ID 3 > > pmtimer0 on isa0 > > orm0: at iomem 0xcc000-0xcc7ff pnpid ORM0000 on isa0 > > ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0 > > ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode > > ppbus0: on ppc0 > > lpt0: on ppbus0 > > lpt0: Interrupt-driven port > > ppi0: on ppbus0 > > plip0: on ppbus0 > > ppc0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > ppc0: [ITHREAD] > > sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 > > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > > sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 > > sio1: port may not be enabled > > vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on > isa0 > > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1799808459 Hz quality 800 > > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > > Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > > ad4: 381554MB at ata2-master SATA150 > > suspending ithread with the following locks held: > > exclusive sleep mutex XPT lock r = 0 (0xc0b883a4) locked @ > /usr/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:3852 > > panic: witness_warn > > cpuid = 0 > > KDB: enter: panic > > [thread pid 18 tid 100016 ] > > Stopped at kdb_enter+0x32: leave > > db> ps > > pid ppid pgrp uid state wmesg wchan cmd > > 53 0 0 0 SL waiting_ 0xc0c084cc [sctp_iterator] > > 52 0 0 0 WL [irq7: ppc0] > > 51 0 0 0 WL [irq12: psm0] > > 50 0 0 0 WL [irq1: atkbd0] > > 49 0 0 0 WL [swi0: sio] > > 48 0 0 0 SL - 0xc401f23c [fdc0] > > 47 0 0 0 SL cooling 0xc3fedad4 [acpi_cooling0] > > 46 0 0 0 SL tzpoll 0xc0d85d40 [acpi_thermal] > > 45 0 0 0 WL [irq23: vr0] > > 44 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fe4210 [usb4] > > 43 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3ffb210 [usb3] > > 42 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3ff5210 [usb2] > > 41 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fee210 [usb1] > > 40 0 0 0 SL usbtsk 0xc0bb7174 [usbtask-dr] > > 39 0 0 0 SL usbtsk 0xc0bb7160 [usbtask-hc] > > 38 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fc8210 [usb0] > > 37 0 0 0 WL [irq21: uhci0 > uhci*] > > 36 0 0 0 WL [irq15: ata1] > > 35 0 0 0 WL [irq14: ata0] > > --More-- > > > > 34 0 0 0 WL [irq20: atapci0] > > 33 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1e00 [aic_recovery3] > > 32 0 0 0 RL [irq19: ahc3] > > 31 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1e00 [aic_recovery3] > > 30 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1400 [aic_recovery2] > > 29 0 0 0 RL [irq18: ahc2] > > 28 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1400 [aic_recovery2] > > 27 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0a00 [aic_recovery1] > > 26 0 0 0 RL [irq17: ahc1] > > 25 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0a00 [aic_recovery1] > > 24 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0c00 [aic_recovery0] > > 23 0 0 0 WL [irq16: ahc0] > > 22 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0c00 [aic_recovery0] > > 21 0 0 0 WL [irq9: acpi0] > > 20 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9580 [thread taskq] > > 19 0 0 0 WL [swi5: +] > > 18 0 0 0 RL CPU 0 [swi2: cambio] > > 9 0 0 0 SL ccb_scan 0xc0b88374 [xpt_thrd] > > 8 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_2] > > 7 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_1] > > --More-- > > > > 6 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_0] > > 5 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9980 [kqueue taskq] > > 17 0 0 0 WL [swi6: task queue] > > 16 0 0 0 WL [swi6: Giant taskq] > > 15 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb94d4 [yarrow] > > 4 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb754c [g_down] > > 3 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb7548 [g_up] > > 2 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb7540 [g_event] > > 14 0 0 0 WL [swi3: vm] > > 13 0 0 0 RL [swi4: clock sio] > > 12 0 0 0 WL [swi1: net] > > 11 0 0 0 RL [idle: cpu0] > > 1 0 0 0 ?L [swapper] > > 10 0 0 0 SL audit_wo 0xc0c11ad4 [audit] > > 0 0 0 0 SLs conifhk 0xc0b599ec [swapper] > > db> show reg > > cs 0x20 > > ds 0x28 > > es 0x28 > > fs 0x8 > > ss 0x28 > > eax 0x12 > > ecx 0xc1434bde > > edx 0 > > ebx 0x100 > > esp 0xe175cc5c > > ebp 0xe175cc64 > > esi 0x1 > > edi 0xc3dea210 > > eip 0xc0777ca2 kdb_enter+0x32 > > efl 0x80282 > > kdb_enter+0x32: leave > > db> show locks > > exclusive sleep mutex XPT lock r = 0 (0xc0b883a4) locked @ > /usr/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:3852 > > db> show lockedvnods > > Locked vnodes > > db> bt > > Tracing pid 18 tid 100016 td 0xc3dea210 > > kdb_enter(c0aa2af2,0,c0aa7718,e175cc9c,0,...) at kdb_enter+0x32 > > panic(c0aa7718,e175ccd8,0,0,0,...) at panic+0x124 > > witness_warn(2,0,c0a9f7d0,471,c3ed97e4,...) at witness_warn+0x19c > > ithread_loop(c3ed80d0,e175cd38,c0a9f445,2ea,c3ee42ac,...) at > ithread_loop+0x2ca > > fork_exit(c0735670,c3ed80d0,e175cd38) at fork_exit+0xb8 > > fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8 > > --- trap 0, eip = 0, esp = 0xe175cd70, ebp = 0 --- > > db> > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This message is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain > information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from > disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not > the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, > please notify us by telephone at (502) 212-4001 or notify us at PAI , > Dept. 99, 11857 Commonwealth Drive, Louisville, KY 40299. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Scott, Any chance on getting this committed? It's been working great but requires me to patch after every cvsup. Thanks. --mikej CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us by telephone at (502) 212-4001 or notify us at PAI , Dept. 99, 11857 Commonwealth Drive, Louisville, KY 40299. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:16:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F4716A417; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:16:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx39.mail.ru (mx39.mail.ru [194.67.23.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54F613C478; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:16:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [78.140.2.250] (port=44336 helo=nuclight.avtf.net) by mx39.mail.ru with esmtp id 1JBtiY-000C6B-00; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:16:47 +0300 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:16:44 +0600 To: "Robert Watson" , "Kris Kennaway" References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> From: "Vadim Goncharov" Organization: AVTF TPU Hostel Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=koi8-r MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:16:49 -0000 07.01.08 @ 04:33 Robert Watson wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> Vadim Goncharov wrote: >>> 06.01.08 @ 23:34 Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> >>>>> What is the other 512 MB of the 1 GB used for? >>>> Everything else that the kernel needs address space for. Buffer >>>> cache, mbuf allocation, etc. >>> Aren't they allocated from the same memory zones? I have a router >>> with 256 Mb RAM, it had a panic with ng_nat once due to exhausted >>> kmem. So, what these number from it's sysctl do really mean? >>> vm.kmem_size: 83415040 >>> vm.kmem_size_max: 335544320 >>> vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 >>> vm.kvm_size: 1073737728 >>> vm.kvm_free: 704638976 >> >> I believe that mbufs are allocated from a separate map. In your case >> you only have ~80MB available in your kmem_map, which is used for >> malloc() in the kernel. It is possible that ng_nat in combination with >> the other kernel malloc usage exhausted this relatively small amount of >> space without mbuf use being a factor. Yes, in-kernel libalias is "leaking" in sense that it grows unbounded, and uses malloc(9) instead if it's own UMA zone with settable limits (it frees all used memory, however, on shutting down ng_nat, so I've done a workaround restarting ng_nat nodes once a month). But as I see the panic string: panic: kmem_malloc(16384): kmem_map too small: 83415040 total allocated and memory usage in crash dump: router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | grep alias libalias 241127 30161K - 460568995 128 router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print sum}' 50407 ...so why only 50 Mb from 80 were used at the moment of panic? BTW, current memory usage (April 6.2S, ipf w+ 2 ng_nat's) a week after restart is low: vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | grep alias libalias 79542 9983K - 179493840 128 vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print sum}' 28124 > Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from > the general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are > still allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of > the known issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without > resource limits: address space and memory use were potentially > unbounded, so Randall recently properly implemented the resource limits > on mbuf clusters of large sizes. I still don't understand what that numbers from sysctl above do exactly mean - sysctl -d for them is obscure. How many memory kernel uses in RAM, and for which purposes? Is that limit constant? Does kernel swaps out parts of it, and if yes, how many? -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:23:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B393B16A420 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:23:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from biancalana@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686CA13C448 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:23:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from biancalana@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u52so12657835pyb.10 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:23:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=1r9Loyru6rVagFaD9n+bIAjDKknVyXgJN+dvBDbEEHI=; b=UPWdQw12ENn+VR/USLbUqCr6SvQJP5NyxCJ0zKa2CgS6Z0SNzQEFXr7PRZL1xQ9fC6NyVvT4JkoP8uAxsulF/lRD5qTMhQ9xD5wE7D8Dt2+2DbPxxuBi6tHdcv6x45k4I0m+ZpWiZbmznbTlvzxa23pUdADYo7JMrNvo6SGBQBQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=r5T4UtXG4G3QQKfZLiistBHUBdcA7zwwGifTpNwhzur1xja7/A3nWpUWGKaYZZnJFWb2BNyGyRY1PEMMEkyDenu9FjNqOEsTEkm7emUyCluJrBIzSiUKmgiBWRMVTefFpVzhm9lD0vNAHS/jn9DQ5xnh7UIubmUmdgvr7ml/YJs= Received: by 10.65.156.2 with SMTP id i2mr42516961qbo.60.1199719396298; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.184.9 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:23:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8e10486b0801070723q5f35a6a6o285abbad2605ddc3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:23:16 -0200 From: "Alexandre Biancalana" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:23:17 -0000 On 1/7/08, $B4Z2HI8(B Bill Hacker wrote: > Finally - the principle architect/miracle worker of ZFS on FreeBSD - pjd@ - > seems to be heavily committed on other matters now, and may be so for some time > to come. > > Ergo 'caution' remains appropriate for production use w/r ZFS - perhaps until 8.X. I agree. I build a new backup server ( DualCore processor, AMD64 Kernel, 3GB Ram, 10x 500GB Sata disks, areca 1230) to receive data from all my local servers on a 4TB zfs pool (using compression, ~ 300 snapshots and ~90 filesystems) and after write to LTO3 Tape Drives. It worked fine after the required tuning (vm patch, prefetch disable, etc) But I lost my data two times. The first was in 11/12/2007, the system freeze and after reboot I get the panic when trying to mount the zfs pool: Dump header from device /dev/ad0s1b Architecture: amd64 Architecture Version: 2 Dump Length: 103477248B (98 MB) Blocksize: 512 Dumptime: Mon Nov 12 14:56:12 2007 Hostname: Magic: FreeBSD Kernel Dump Version String: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA2 #0: Mon Nov 12 11:49:07 BRST 2007 root@:/usr/src/sys/amd64/compile/MANNY.debug Panic String: solaris assert: ss == NULL, file: /usr/src/sys/modules/zfs/../../contrib/opensolaris/uts/common/fs/zfs/space_map.c, line: 110 Dump Parity: 2217569595 Bounds: 3 Dump Status: good after some days giving some shots with Pawel (and his contact with solaris people), we can't figure out the problem, I assume the lost and recreate the zpool. I decided to give another try, put more memory, do more "tuning" and after one month all worked fine except the slowness when coping small files to a tape drive (a started a new thread about that on -performance http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-performance@freebsd.org/msg01764.html) when I get another crash, this time with: ZFS(panic): zfs: allocating allocated segment(offset=2781261201408 size=131072) And again, I can't recover my zpool. I had choose zfs because the fantastic features available, instant snapshots, clones, native/transparent compression, the way that you can create filesystems inside the pool limiting and reserving space, all this make my backup solution simple amazing. But this crashes forced me to step back and without a filesystem that can handle TB without tedious fsck a had to go with CentOS+ext3. I'm a FreeBSD lover, using this as much as I can, at work all gateways, firewalls, proxy, fileservers, pop, imap, smtp, ldap and were FreeBSD fit this is my preference. I work with Free since 2.2.6 and I only give up when there is no choice. This case unfortunately was one of that I have no choice. Best Regards, Alexandre Biancalana ps: excuse me for my bad english... From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:37:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F64916A468 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:37:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A7613C4CC for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:37:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m07FbB1e034900; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:37:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m07Favro076038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:36:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m07FavPN076165; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:36:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m07Fat2l076164; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:36:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:36:55 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Maxim Sobolev Message-ID: <20080107153655.GI65134@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> <4781791A.2090401@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4781791A.2090401@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: Adam McDougall , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:37:17 -0000 On Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 04:58:02PM -0800, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Adam McDougall wrote: > >A summary of my opinion on this matter is that some i386 FreeBSD servers > >do have a place running zfs in a useful role, but some dedication and > >patience from the administrator is usually required, and the effort to > >tune at least kmem is nearly > > In Russian we have a good saying: "You can teach a bear to ride a > bicycle, but will it ever enjoy it?" I enjoy my i386/ZFS Servers. It is running with just 384MB RAM as the only instability it currently has is because the / disk ist dying. But even with this it has 71 days uptime. And my backup server is also based on ZFS with just 196MB RAM. This one isn't running stable, but it is stable for just doing the zfs imports and restoring some files. The only 64 bit machines I have at home are alpha and spac64, so no option for ZFS right now. I don't see a real difference between running a 2G i386 and a 2G amd64 server. 8GB amd64 boxes are still not very common. Of course the i386 must be tuned to have enough kmem and KVA and of course doing so reduces the application space, but it is still within the hardware limitations and an NFS-Server doesn't need much application address space anyway. Considered that we seem to have a limitation on running amd64 with more than 2G kmem there is even more to consider. > The same is here - seemingly due to the ZFS design limitations and > limitations of the FreeBSD kernel you can't get ZFS to run reliably out > of the box on i386. Yes, you can probably do some tweaks here and there, > to make it more of less stable given the workload, but that's not what > most of the FreeBSD users expect from the file system. Unlike you, most > of administrators won't even bother to read tweaking documentation > explaining why ZFS is so tricky in i386, let alone doing actual > trial-and-error to determine the right set of tunables. More likely at > the first incident they would just dismiss FreeBSD/ZFS as a crap. This is true however. I'm OK with a big fat warning on i386 and/or a loader env to be set to reenable this for persons who know (or think they do) what they are doing. If we say ZFS on i386 isn't supported than at least it shouldn't be able to be configured without anyone hitting a special knob. But in my opinion ZFS shouldn't overflow kmem storage at first. This is not only an i386 problem as rasing kmem makes ZFS more hungry by default, which is only good if kmem isn't used for something else. I have an amd64 system with 4G RAM and kmem defaults to 419430400 Bytes. On my 384MB i386 box I have (tuned of course) 335544320 Bytes kmem. And with more RAM I could easily go over the default on the amd64 box. Well RAM is too expensive since it is SDRAM, but there are many DDR boxes without amd64 functionality out there, which allows adding affordable memory in the nGB range. I had to reduce ARC sizes to get the 384MB box stable - the OS version is quite old and things have been modified for that in the meantime, but considered that 2G i386 systems still panic with more kmem than I have RAM it simply says that it wouldn't run out of the box on amd64 with the same applications either. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:39:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F94816A417; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:39:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2316F13C45D; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:39:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA1746C46; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:39:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:39:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Vadim Goncharov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:39:58 -0000 On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > Yes, in-kernel libalias is "leaking" in sense that it grows unbounded, and > uses malloc(9) instead if it's own UMA zone with settable limits (it frees > all used memory, however, on shutting down ng_nat, so I've done a workaround > restarting ng_nat nodes once a month). But as I see the panic string: Did you have any luck raising interest from Paulo regarding this problem? Is there a PR I can take a look at? I'm not really familiar with the code, so I'd prefer someone who was a bit more familiar with it looked after it, but I can certainly take a glance. > panic: kmem_malloc(16384): kmem_map too small: 83415040 total allocated > > and memory usage in crash dump: > > router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | grep alias > libalias 241127 30161K - 460568995 128 > router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print sum}' > 50407 > > ...so why only 50 Mb from 80 were used at the moment of panic? This is a bit complicated to answer, but I'll try to capture the gist in a short space. The kernel memory map is an address space in which pages can be placed to be used by the kernel. Those pages are often allocated using one of two kernel allocators, malloc(9) which does variable sized memory allocations, and uma(9) which is a slab allocator and supports caching of complex but fixed-size objects. Temporary buffers of variable size or infrequently allocated objects will use malloc, but frequently allocated objects of fixed size (vnods, mbufs, ...) will use uma. "vmstat -m" prints out information on malloc allocations, and "vmstat -z" prints out information on uma allocations. To make life slightly more complicated, small malloc allocations are actually implemented using uma -- there are a small number of small object size zones reserved for this purpose, and malloc just rounds up to the next such bucket size and allocations from that bucket. For larger sizes, malloc goes through uma, but pretty much directly to VM which makes pages available directly. So when you look at "vmstat -z" output, be aware that some of the information presented there (zones named things like "128", "256", etc) are actually the pools from which malloc allocations come, so there's double-counting. There are also other ways to get memory into the kernel map, such as directly inserting pages from user memory into the kernel address space in order to implement zero-copy. This is done, for example, when zero-copy sockets are used. To make life just very slightly more complicated even, I'll tell you that there are something called "submaps" in the kernel memory map, which have special properties. One of these is used for mapping the buffer cache. Another is used for mapping pageable memory used as part of copy-reduction in the pipe(2) code. Rather than copying twice (into the kernel and out again) in the pipe code, for large pipe I/O we will borrow the user pages from the sending process, mapping them into the kernel and hooking them up to the pipe. > BTW, current memory usage (April 6.2S, ipf w+ 2 ng_nat's) a week after > restart is low: > > vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | grep alias > libalias 79542 9983K - 179493840 128 > vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print sum}' > 28124 > >> Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from the >> general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are still >> allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of the known >> issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without resource >> limits: address space and memory use were potentially unbounded, so Randall >> recently properly implemented the resource limits on mbuf clusters of large >> sizes. > > I still don't understand what that numbers from sysctl above do exactly mean > - sysctl -d for them is obscure. How many memory kernel uses in RAM, and for > which purposes? Is that limit constant? Does kernel swaps out parts of it, > and if yes, how many? The concept of kernel memory, as seen above, is a bit of a convoluted concept. Simple memory allocated by the kernel for its internal data structures, such as vnodes, sockets, mbufs, etc, is almost always not something that can be paged, as it may be accessed from contexts where blocking on I/O is not permitted (for example, in interrupt threads or with critical mutexes held). However, other memory in the kernel map may well be pageable, such as kernel thread stacks for sleeping user threads (which can be swapped out under heavy memory load), pipe buffers, and general cached data for the buffer cache / file system, which will be paged out or discarded when memory pressure goes up. When debugging a kernel memory leak in the network stack, the usual starting point is to look at vmstat -m and vmstat -z to see what type of memory is being leaked. The really big monotonically growing type is usually the one that's at fault. Often it's the one being allocated when the system runs out of address space or memory, so sometimes even a simple backtrace will identify the culprit. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 15:53:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C22216A421; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:53:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com (zrtps0kn.nortel.com [47.140.192.55]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E08C13C4F9; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:53:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m07FXvv04325; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:33:57 GMT Received: from ab-thinky.atrens.ca ([47.128.181.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:33:50 -0500 Message-ID: <47824627.40701@nortel.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:32:55 -0500 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071028) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Lambrev References: <472E9D0B.5080409@csub.edu> <20071106002940.GB1817@styx.ethz.ch> <472FD321.3010509@nortel.com> <20071108132222.GC1674@dose.local.invalid> <47334C71.1010102@nortel.com> <20071108224313.GA1927@dose.local.invalid> <47821585.10804@moneybookers.com> In-Reply-To: <47821585.10804@moneybookers.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jan 2008 15:33:50.0824 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3EA7E80:01C85142] Cc: Benjamin Lutz , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Simon Barner , Matus Harvan Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:53:06 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 All, As far as I know a fix has not been submitted. My brain is still a bit foggy from being off on holiday, but it seems to me that Benjamin still had a problem with his AMD dual core system. I'm about 99% certain that the root cause of his problem was somewhat different than what Simon and I were experiencing. If I recall, from his investigations it seemed like his acpi frequency list appeared to be getting corrupted - duplicate entries were getting added to the list. It almost looked like both cpus were building the list in parallel - which doesn't make any sense at all since only one core should be running, and in any event this code should only be executed once. It could also be a caching issue / compiler bug on his platform, more likely the latter because it appears to be 100% reproducable. I didn't ask Benjamin what compiler options he's using - I'm just assuming it's the usual -O. In my experience (and Simon's I believe) *near* duplicate entries are reported by the BIOS and either of the submitted patches will work just fine. I suggest be submitted to address the more common problem, and keep Ben's PR open for tracking purposes. Here's the patch I'm using - # cvs diff -u acpi_perf.c Index: acpi_perf.c =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/repo/freebsd/src/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_perf.c,v retrieving revision 1.26 diff -u -r1.26 acpi_perf.c - --- acpi_perf.c 22 Mar 2007 18:16:40 -0000 1.26 +++ acpi_perf.c 16 Nov 2007 20:11:02 -0000 @@ -300,9 +300,9 @@ continue; /* Check for duplicate entries */ - - if (count > 0 && - - sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq == - - sc->px_states[count].core_freq) + if (count > 0 && + CPUFREQ_CMP(sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq, + sc->px_states[count].core_freq)) continue; count++; It's so simple that it's kind of silly that it (or something like it) hasn't been committed yet... Anyone out there with a commit bit interested in submitting this ? - --Andrew -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgkYn8It2CaCdeMwRAqKzAJ0eai9FJpnqozuVfhJG8FK5nSRYGQCfeaNH wlkT+eMWYUqQC7zyrdAk/oc= =BRD0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 16:06:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ADD616A420; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:06:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx3.mail.ru (mx3.mail.ru [194.67.23.149]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C43E13C46B; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:06:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [78.140.2.250] (port=42558 helo=nuclight.avtf.net) by mx3.mail.ru with esmtp id 1JBuUo-000K6L-00; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:06:38 +0300 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:06:36 +0600 To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= References: <20080104192820.GM947@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080105011027.GA21334@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <86tzlp65si.fsf@ds4.des.no> From: "Vadim Goncharov" Organization: AVTF TPU Hostel Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86tzlp65si.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Cc: Peter Jeremy , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "advocacy@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: sbrk(2), OOM-killer and malloc() overcommit X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:06:40 -0000 07.01.08 @ 20:58 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > "Vadim Goncharov" writes: >> There were case in our town when on heavy loaded web-server apache >> processes were dying on memory pressure - aforementioned man said that >> was due to overcommit and OOM killer working. > > Well, technically, it was because the server didn't have enough RAM for > the workload it was given. Turning off memory overcommit wouldn't fix > that, it would just change the symptoms. Yes, but when they have a multi-gigabyte-RAM server, and told that Linux will be better - no matter they are technically so competent or not, we can loose users... > I don't know of a single server OS that doesn't overcommit memory. The > only difference between them is how they behave once the shit hits the > fan. I've heard about disabling it for selected processes or things like memory reservation backed by temporary files done by OS (afair, it was HP-UX). Or Linux overcommit switch, for which this ordinary people are happy enough to not blame (here are defaults): master:~# cat /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_ratio 50 master:~# cat /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory 0 master:~# cat /usr/src/linux-2.6.16.21-0.8/Documentation/vm/overcommit-accounting The Linux kernel supports the following overcommit handling modes 0 - Heuristic overcommit handling. Obvious overcommits of address space are refused. Used for a typical system. It ensures a seriously wild allocation fails while allowing overcommit to reduce swap usage. root is allowed to allocate slighly more memory in this mode. This is the default. 1 - Always overcommit. Appropriate for some scientific applications. 2 - Don't overcommit. The total address space commit for the system is not permitted to exceed swap + a configurable percentage (default is 50) of physical RAM. Depending on the percentage you use, in most situations this means a process will not be killed while accessing pages but will receive errors on memory allocation as appropriate. The overcommit policy is set via the sysctl `vm.overcommit_memory'. The overcommit percentage is set via `vm.overcommit_ratio'. The current overcommit limit and amount committed are viewable in /proc/meminfo as CommitLimit and Committed_AS respectively. Gotchas ------- The C language stack growth does an implicit mremap. If you want absolute guarantees and run close to the edge you MUST mmap your stack for the largest size you think you will need. For typical stack usage this does not matter much but it's a corner case if you really really care In mode 2 the MAP_NORESERVE flag is ignored. How It Works ------------ The overcommit is based on the following rules For a file backed map SHARED or READ-only - 0 cost (the file is the map not swap) PRIVATE WRITABLE - size of mapping per instance For an anonymous or /dev/zero map SHARED - size of mapping PRIVATE READ-only - 0 cost (but of little use) PRIVATE WRITABLE - size of mapping per instance Additional accounting Pages made writable copies by mmap shmfs memory drawn from the same pool Status ------ o We account mmap memory mappings o We account mprotect changes in commit o We account mremap changes in size o We account brk o We account munmap o We report the commit status in /proc o Account and check on fork o Review stack handling/building on exec o SHMfs accounting o Implement actual limit enforcement To Do ----- o Account ptrace pages (this is hard) master:~# > Anyway, as somebody else mentioned, the details are in the archives - if > you don't know enough English to find them there, I don't see how having > them summarized in English will help. If the language barrier really is > a problem, ask someone who speaks your language to help you. 1) It is simpler to understand a relatively short summary or ask help from language-knowing man for this not so big text, than try to ask such man for many pages 2) Such an article would be good in terms of advocacy, to explain why this is not a bug, we are not-worse-in-this-place than their-cool-OS, and what programmer should do. Of course, in case this is really so - or maybe we want to commit a patch (Kostik Belousov's one may be good start point) with tunable allowing to disable overcommit?.. -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 16:50:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4072B16A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:50:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E55E13C465 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:50:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so11478899fka.11 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:50:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=PbIIrPSHL1EMXK1TmH2mAtNwDAC6LSqbTF4e2dsqN1Q=; b=X8vixbI9KfE3RDcxHVJST5IeflB6HC/Vja1b5TMt91RiftpuswZW3PWqx0rcWaCpbPKt8UpIq30zvM0u7RMJIIXdX4mNLmJ6cR6zHoxpXMcOkXA8J808u2dkvW+4ya+/p3q/oQ8jL38TpOurz8Kh3y2J6BRn+tAlnZiFkAKt2Jk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=r8MWiAdKgMyH1gLCwoNeShLfvNIB4kLFNlZgHgO/GksVqC7czwgSwBZXnruV1/+VsKtg/Zbn7Txnhn7PpVwNtQ23NhTOd4Irc1Apb03L/GcX9ysZkkO5beqgxSCOg5DT43xB4QEGrleNO8tQ9C8A2gWvk+1Nz8WP/6BcE/qWkh4= Received: by 10.82.105.13 with SMTP id d13mr35752772buc.30.1199722910297; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n3sm9972486gvf.16.2008.01.07.08.21.47 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:21:48 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-Reply-To: <4781AAA2.9070207@gmail.com> References: <4781AAA2.9070207@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GbyGOeZvv4wLp5C5rLrN" Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:21:46 +0000 Message-Id: <1199722906.1545.3.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: more acd0+ihc9r problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:50:50 -0000 --=-GbyGOeZvv4wLp5C5rLrN Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 23:29 -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > I am using 8-current (including the latest pmap mods) amd64 on a MSI > Neo-F mobo (P35+IHC9R with intergrated re(4) and sata) with a Plextor > px-755a SATA dvd+/-rw. I have the following issues with /dev/acd0: >=20 > If there is blank media present at boot time (have not tested with > non-blank media) depending on media type the following happens: >=20 > 1. re(4) disappears (cd-r) > 2. named fails but re(4) is present (cd-rw) > 3. goes into infinite stall (not hang) (dvd-r) >=20 > If write is attempted to media depending on media type the following > happens: >=20 > 1. Fails to fixate due to timeout (cd-r) > 2. Fails to write anything (cd-rw and dvd-r) >=20 Doctor, it hurts when I do this... 1) Define disappears - the hardware is no longer present or visible to the OS? What does pciconf -lv look like in both failure and success states?=20 2) How does named fail? Can you restart named? What error messages are output in both cases? 3) Where in the kernel does it stall? Can you break in with the debugger? Tom --=-GbyGOeZvv4wLp5C5rLrN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHglGVlcRvFfyds/cRAsHjAKCmNZqTyyp5NFwWLW0GssDXX58pfgCgoS7W c4NOxCp/Mpg58fiyVHkbSRY= =QRkA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GbyGOeZvv4wLp5C5rLrN-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 16:56:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0DC16A468 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FCD13C474 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) id m07GNqal075816; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:23:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:23:52 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Frode Nordahl Message-ID: <20080107162352.GA9029@dan.emsphone.com> References: <20060528173242.GC16530@katherina.student.utwente.nl> <9AB75EDF-A550-4823-B1F6-CA8AFFBC6821@nordahl.net> <20080107101050.GF20593@katherina.student.utwente.nl> <19D4AA5E-E076-4E70-A8B7-C9E2992C64D6@nordahl.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19D4AA5E-E076-4E70-A8B7-C9E2992C64D6@nordahl.net> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Matthijs Kooijman Subject: Re: FreeBSD nss, getgroupmembership(3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:56:30 -0000 In the last episode (Jan 07), Frode Nordahl said: > On 7. jan.. 2008, at 11.10, Matthijs Kooijman wrote: >> a while back (or actually, more than a year back...) there was some >> discussion in this thread about implementing getgroupmembership >> support in FreeBSD NSS. >> >> FYI, Michael Bushkov has commited support for this a few weeks back >> based on work by me and largely by Michael Hanselmann. For now, >> there is no support yet in the nss_ldap and nss_winbind modules, but >> patches are already available. >> >> Support will not be merged to 7.0, but hopefully it will be in 7.1. >> >> See pr 115196 [1] for more details about it, and links to the >> winbind/ldap patches. >> >> Gr. >> >> Matthijs >> >> [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/115196 > > Thank you for letting me know, this is fantastic!! :-) A big thank > you to everyone involved in making this happen. > > I will attempt to put this to test in a production system in good > time before 7.1 so any issues can be resolved before release. > > Any chance the patch will apply on 6.x? The mailinglist post mentioned in PR 115196 includes a patch for 6.x, which also works just fine (with some conflict cleanup) on 5.x :) -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 17:06:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C2B16A419; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:06:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67CB13C4E7; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:06:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB15178D05; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:06:55 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:06:55 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <70e8236f0801070652i35643585k9ca5d55125d55ce9@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0801070652i35643585k9ca5d55125d55ce9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1781470.KER9S0gyGh"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801071807.04093.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Joao Barros , Gary Corcoran , Ivan Voras Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:06:58 -0000 --nextPart1781470.KER9S0gyGh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > That's it on my loader.conf and for months now I haven't seen a panic. > Why should I or anyone else happilly running ZFS on i386 be denied of > doing so? 100% agreement. If you want to go to extremes, require the user to put=20 zfs.zfs.run_on_32_bit_and_i_understand_i_am_an_idiot_and_this_is_not_recomm= ended=3D1=20 in loader.conf, or else have the kernel panic by design on boot. But don't make it totally impossible without patching the source, *please*. Obviously the exception is if development for i386 stops such that it actua= lly=20 does not work. But disallowing it for artificial reasons... please leave=20 things like that to proprietary hardware/software vendors trying to squeeze= =20 money of out consumers, and leave it out of a free operation system. =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart1781470.KER9S0gyGh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHglw4DNor2+l1i30RAt57AJ96qALVP8jZr9LylTA5mBctiFisIQCdESGC scII2NAPG1uDsdtSxa7kuVY= =2l94 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1781470.KER9S0gyGh-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 16:27:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEBF16A46B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:27:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mteterin@mlp.com) Received: from outbound-mail.mlp.com (outbound-mail.mlp.com [204.212.175.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D93D13C4DB for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:27:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mteterin@mlp.com) Received: from misha (Not Verified[10.5.105.98]) by outbound-mail.mlp.com with MailMarshal (v6, 1, 5, 586) id ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:11:41 -0500 From: Mikhail Teterin To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?q?Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:11:36 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801071111.39094.mteterin@mlp.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:33:31 +0000 Cc: efinleywork@efinley.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:27:01 -0000 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BD=D0=B5=D0=B4=D1=96=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BA 07 =D1=81=D1=96=D1= =87=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=8C 2008 08:44 =D0=B4=D0=BE, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav =D0= =92=D0=B8 =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB=D0=B8: > In fact, I think it will take about as long for HAMMER to mature as it = took > for softupdates and SMPng. And softupdates are still buggy :( I had a panic with something about=20 softupdates and inode right before New Year (kernel binaries have been=20 rebuilt before then, so I could not really debug). The "Failed to flush worklist" error continues to appear every once in a = while=20 too, preventing clean unmounts... Usable? Mostly. Mature? No... =20-mi ###################################################################### The information contained in this communication is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not a named addressee, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. If you have received this communication, and are not a named recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. ###################################################################### From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 20:06:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083E116A421; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:06:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8647F13C467; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:06:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.8q) with ESMTP id 227632876-1834499 for multiple; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:05:14 -0500 Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m07K6pQs073323; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:06:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:52:42 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801071352.42690.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:06:52 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5420/Mon Jan 7 09:34:42 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Doug Barton Subject: Re: VFS panic - probably NTFS X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:06:56 -0000 On Wednesday 26 December 2007 06:01:47 pm Doug Barton wrote: > I have a dual boot system, and from time to time I use mount_ntfs to read > stuff from the windows partition. Doing that today I got the following > with a system built on 23 December: > > #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > 195 pcpu.h: No such file or directory. > in pcpu.h > (kgdb) bt > #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > #1 0xc056a0ae in boot (howto=260) > at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:409 > #2 0xc056a36b in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available. > ) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:563 > #3 0xc05586a2 in _lockmgr (lkp=0xc90049e8, flags=8212, > interlkp=0xc9004a18, > td=0xc92d5220, file=0xc077c0ed "/usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c", > line=2213) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_lock.c:319 We'd need the actual panic message I think. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 20:46:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D838816A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:46:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thompsa@FreeBSD.org) Received: from heff.fud.org.nz (203-109-251-39.static.bliink.ihug.co.nz [203.109.251.39]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A5D13C44B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:46:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thompsa@FreeBSD.org) Received: by heff.fud.org.nz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7CCB27305; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:46:31 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:46:31 +1300 From: Andrew Thompson To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20080107204631.GG34409@heff.fud.org.nz> References: <86y7b168ay.fsf@ds4.des.no> <9bbcef730801070637v6db39e97o34b89b10dad75617@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801070637v6db39e97o34b89b10dad75617@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:46:33 -0000 On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 03:37:26PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: > On 07/01/2008, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > > > Your question is based on the premise that ZFS in FreeBSD 7 is unstable. > > That premise is false. > > At most, we'll have to agree to disagree. A "tuning" of the system (at > least from my experience) is about system performance, not whether the > system will crash or not. You may define the word to mean something > else but that's your thing. > > The reason I'm aggressively discussing this is that labeling the > problem as "tuning" will, for any non-trivial task which has some > growth in system load, result in a server that needs constant tuning > just to survive another day. What is tuned today may as well result in > a crash tomorrow if the load rises. Web servers are notorious for this > (though other types have of course similar behaviour) - a > "slashdotting" of a "properly tuned" FreeBSD system with ZFS will not > result in a slowdown - it will result in the system crashing. This is > not acceptable, and therefore dismissing it as "just tuning" is > counterproductive and bad engineering. ZFS is clearly marked as experimental so its reasonable to require tuning to avoid crashes. If its still the case when the experimental status is lifted then you can have this argument all over again. cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 22:11:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57F816A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82F013C442 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m07MBfN5032226; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m07MBcb3032223; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> Cc: Mikhail Teterin , efinleywork@efinley.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:11:50 -0000 :OK, so you reject softupdates because it took time to mature and you :assume it stopped improving when you stopped paying attention. : :How long do you think it will take for HAMMER to mature? Realistically? :How long will HAMMER be "a huge source of bugs in the system" before it :stabilizes? : :Think back to when you started DragonFly. How soon did you expect it to :overtake FreeBSD in SMP performance? And how long did it actually take? :Actually, it never happened - DrangonFly doesn't scale at all across :multiple cores, while FreeBSD 7 leads the pack. : :Perhaps you should adjust your expectations a bit. I don't doubt that :HAMMER will be a very interesting file system when it's stable, but I :doubt very much that will happen any time soon. In fact, I think it :will take about as long for HAMMER to mature as it took for softupdates :and SMPng. : :DES :--=20 :Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no Don't mistake the existance of the MP lock for a lack of SMP coding. All kernel coding done in DragonFly these days is SMP oriented because all the APIs are SMP oriented, whether the MP lock is held or not. We are better positioned there then you think we are. If I am overly conservative when it comes to maintaining system stability, well, that's just a quirk of mine. I don't feel there's much of a point to having cool bells and whistles if it also means getting crashes, or introducing untraceable and difficult-to-debug bugs. Personally speaking, if I had the chance to inherit FreeBSD's MP work, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot poll. Regardless of the performance you are getting out of it, your code base is a huge mess and it looks completely unmanagable to me. You have had to deal with a continuous stream of bugs from the same subsystems for the last, what, five years? I attribute that directly to the ridiculous amount of complexity you have introduced to all levels of the kernel. No thanks. With regards to softupdates verses HAMMER, I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Softupdates still has bugs because it is very, VERY complex and fragile code that only three people in the entire world understands well enough to work on. HAMMER development is bounded only by its from-scratch implementation. It is extremely well organized, extremely robust, well commented, and the bugs are a short-lived byproduct of development. I expect it will become production ready very, very quickly once the remaining core work is completed (the on-the-fly recovery code and the long-term balancing code)... just like every other major application I've written over the years has been. Kirk stopped working on softupdates years ago, the snapshot code is severely limited, and it hasn't removed the need for fsck. Background fsck is still as dangerous to run as the day it was introduced, and the only softupdates work I see are attempts to fix bugs. From my point of view softupdates is dead, and UFS2 is in no better shape if you can't fix the fsck issue (and I have grave doubts about its ability to scaleh given the linear nature of most of the cluster algorithms). On top of that UFS has the same problems that it has always had. The dirhash code is a bandaid at best. I occassionally see people talking about building a log into UFS or resurrecting LFS. It's possible to do but it would also be the end of the line for the filesystem. The last gasp, so to speak. I have followed every single commit made to softupdates since its inception. Don't kid yourself. The major goal for DragonFly has been and always will be transparent clustering. HAMMER and its transaction oriented record storage abstraction is one of three major components needed to being able to achieve that. Above and beyond that, HAMMER solves at least half a dozen major infrastructure needs and it does it very cleanly. It had better, it took me all of 2007 to design the sucker :-). -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 22:28:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E5116A419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:28:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7AD13C45B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:28:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (unknown [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839AA28448 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:28:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45907EB1014; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:28:11 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MYcIT3VAg7or; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:28:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (adsl-76-237-33-62.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [76.237.33.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0332EB0FB4; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:27:56 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type; b=YPclmQYflOW9HGPwABKR6pkXuRzbhbOeKKOriC5kv+xINfVa8wSOJlyS6Wzu1Ma6Z 1+4+uHskAaI+LJZKcNnFQ== Message-ID: <4782A768.3020304@delphij.net> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:27:52 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Travis Mikalson References: <1497D115-2534-4799-9D8E-18A267DF0B62@mipster.net> <9A374150-DC2A-439D-A205-E8867B663C5A@mipster.net> <477B0B07.8080703@terranova.net> <477CAF30.7020703@terranova.net> In-Reply-To: <477CAF30.7020703@terranova.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000605020808010702070506" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ServerWorks/Broadcom HT1000 chipset errata saga X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:28:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000605020808010702070506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Travis Mikalson wrote: > Nick Pope wrote: >> I csup'ed to latest RELENG_7_0 (RC1) and built the GENERIC kernel. >> I'm assuming Soren's patch has made it into RC1 because, without >> commenting out the rr232x driver, the kernel mis-detects my Supermicro >> PCI-X SATA controller (MV88SX6081 chipset) as an rr232x. > > No, Søren's HT1000/Marvell fixing stuff is still in HEAD only according > to cvsweb. Did not make it to RELENG_7 or RELENG_7_0 yet. > > I think your problem is unrelated to this patchset. > > It wasn't making any sense that any of this code that was touched would > have any effect on detection of your Marvell device anyway... Here is a patch that brings the HT1000 changeset back to RELENG_7 and RELENG_7_0. Newer change by phk@ seems to be harmless, but it does not have effect for HT1000 either. Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgqdoi+vbBBjt66ARAj/8AKCn6Ar4gxVbEvKPXVmLVnwEV6QWJgCgpRef TJhBZGIJqvuvkZoifOkTcXs= =2gRs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------000605020808010702070506 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ata-ht1000.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ata-ht1000.diff" Index: ata-all.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-all.h,v retrieving revision 1.124.2.1 diff -u -p -r1.124.2.1 ata-all.h --- ata-all.h 21 Nov 2007 21:15:00 -0000 1.124.2.1 +++ ata-all.h 7 Jan 2008 22:17:41 -0000 @@ -464,6 +464,8 @@ struct ata_lowlevel { int (*begin_transaction)(struct ata_request *request); int (*end_transaction)(struct ata_request *request); int (*command)(struct ata_request *request); + void (*tf_read)(struct ata_request *request); + void (*tf_write)(struct ata_request *request); }; /* structure holding resources for an ATA channel */ Index: ata-chipset.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c,v retrieving revision 1.202.2.5 diff -u -p -r1.202.2.5 ata-chipset.c --- ata-chipset.c 9 Dec 2007 19:26:56 -0000 1.202.2.5 +++ ata-chipset.c 7 Jan 2008 22:17:56 -0000 @@ -99,7 +99,7 @@ static void ata_intel_new_setmode(device static void ata_intel_sata_setmode(device_t dev, int mode); static int ata_intel_31244_allocate(device_t dev); static int ata_intel_31244_status(device_t dev); -static int ata_intel_31244_command(struct ata_request *request); +static void ata_intel_31244_tf_write(struct ata_request *request); static void ata_intel_31244_reset(device_t dev); static int ata_ite_chipinit(device_t dev); static void ata_ite_setmode(device_t dev, int mode); @@ -152,6 +152,8 @@ static void ata_promise_queue_hpkt(struc static void ata_promise_next_hpkt(struct ata_pci_controller *ctlr); static int ata_serverworks_chipinit(device_t dev); static int ata_serverworks_allocate(device_t dev); +static void ata_serverworks_tf_read(struct ata_request *request); +static void ata_serverworks_tf_write(struct ata_request *request); static void ata_serverworks_setmode(device_t dev, int mode); static int ata_sii_chipinit(device_t dev); static int ata_cmd_allocate(device_t dev); @@ -2093,7 +2095,7 @@ ata_intel_31244_allocate(device_t dev) ch->flags |= ATA_NO_SLAVE; ata_pci_hw(dev); ch->hw.status = ata_intel_31244_status; - ch->hw.command = ata_intel_31244_command; + ch->hw.tf_write = ata_intel_31244_tf_write; /* enable PHY state change interrupt */ ATA_OUTL(ctlr->r_res2, 0x4, @@ -2111,32 +2113,55 @@ ata_intel_31244_status(device_t dev) return ata_pci_status(dev); } -static int -ata_intel_31244_command(struct ata_request *request) +static void +ata_intel_31244_tf_write(struct ata_request *request) { struct ata_channel *ch = device_get_softc(device_get_parent(request->dev)); struct ata_device *atadev = device_get_softc(request->dev); - u_int64_t lba; - - if (!(atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE)) - return (ata_generic_command(request)); - - lba = request->u.ata.lba; - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_IBM | ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit); - /* enable interrupt */ - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CONTROL, ATA_A_4BIT); - ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); - ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); - ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_SECTOR, ((lba >> 16) & 0xff00) | (lba & 0x00ff)); - ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, ((lba >> 24) & 0xff00) | - ((lba >> 8) & 0x00ff)); - ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, ((lba >> 32) & 0xff00) | - ((lba >> 16) & 0x00ff)); - /* issue command to controller */ - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COMMAND, request->u.ata.command); - - return 0; + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_SECTOR, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 16) & 0xff00) | + (request->u.ata.lba & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0xff00) | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 8) & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 32) & 0xff00) | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 16) & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_USE_CHS) { + int heads, sectors; + + if (atadev->param.atavalid & ATA_FLAG_54_58) { + heads = atadev->param.current_heads; + sectors = atadev->param.current_sectors; + } + else { + heads = atadev->param.heads; + sectors = atadev->param.sectors; + } + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, (request->u.ata.lba % sectors)+1); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads))); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads)) >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_IBM | atadev->unit | + (((request->u.ata.lba% (sectors * heads)) / + sectors) & 0xf)); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, + ATA_D_IBM | ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0x0f)); + } + } } static void @@ -2849,8 +2874,12 @@ ata_marvell_edma_dmainit(device_t dev) /* note start and stop are not used here */ ch->dma->setprd = ata_marvell_edma_dmasetprd; + /* if 64bit support present adjust max address used */ if (ATA_INL(ctlr->r_res1, 0x00d00) & 0x00000004) ch->dma->max_address = BUS_SPACE_MAXADDR; + + /* chip does not reliably do 64K DMA transfers */ + ch->dma->max_iosize = 126 * DEV_BSIZE; } } @@ -4248,10 +4277,97 @@ ata_serverworks_allocate(device_t dev) ch->flags |= ATA_NO_SLAVE; ata_pci_hw(dev); + ch->hw.tf_read = ata_serverworks_tf_read; + ch->hw.tf_write = ata_serverworks_tf_write; + + /* chip does not reliably do 64K DMA transfers */ + if (ch->dma) + ch->dma->max_iosize = 126 * DEV_BSIZE; + return 0; } static void +ata_serverworks_tf_read(struct ata_request *request) +{ + struct ata_channel *ch = device_get_softc(device_get_parent(request->dev)); + struct ata_device *atadev = device_get_softc(request->dev); + + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { + u_int16_t temp; + + request->u.ata.count = ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_COUNT); + temp = ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_SECTOR); + request->u.ata.lba = (u_int64_t)(temp & 0x00ff) | + ((u_int64_t)(temp & 0xff00) << 24); + temp = ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB); + request->u.ata.lba |= ((u_int64_t)(temp & 0x00ff) << 8) | + ((u_int64_t)(temp & 0xff00) << 32); + temp = ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB); + request->u.ata.lba |= ((u_int64_t)(temp & 0x00ff) << 16) | + ((u_int64_t)(temp & 0xff00) << 40); + } + else { + request->u.ata.count = ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_COUNT) & 0x00ff; + request->u.ata.lba = (ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_SECTOR) & 0x00ff) | + ((ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB) & 0x00ff) << 8) | + ((ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB) & 0x00ff) << 16) | + ((ATA_IDX_INW(ch, ATA_DRIVE) & 0xf) << 24); + } +} + +static void +ata_serverworks_tf_write(struct ata_request *request) +{ + struct ata_channel *ch = device_get_softc(device_get_parent(request->dev)); + struct ata_device *atadev = device_get_softc(request->dev); + + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_SECTOR, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 16) & 0xff00) | + (request->u.ata.lba & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0xff00) | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 8) & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, ((request->u.ata.lba >> 32) & 0xff00) | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 16) & 0x00ff)); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_USE_CHS) { + int heads, sectors; + + if (atadev->param.atavalid & ATA_FLAG_54_58) { + heads = atadev->param.current_heads; + sectors = atadev->param.current_sectors; + } + else { + heads = atadev->param.heads; + sectors = atadev->param.sectors; + } + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_SECTOR, (request->u.ata.lba % sectors)+1); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads))); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads)) >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_IBM | atadev->unit | + (((request->u.ata.lba% (sectors * heads)) / + sectors) & 0xf)); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); + ATA_IDX_OUTW(ch, ATA_DRIVE, + ATA_D_IBM | ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0x0f)); + } + } +} + +static void ata_serverworks_setmode(device_t dev, int mode) { device_t gparent = GRANDPARENT(dev); @@ -4562,7 +4678,7 @@ ata_sii_allocate(device_t dev) if ((ctlr->chip->cfg2 & SIIBUG) && ch->dma) { /* work around errata in early chips */ - ch->dma->boundary = 16 * DEV_BSIZE; + ch->dma->boundary = 8192; ch->dma->segsize = 15 * DEV_BSIZE; } Index: ata-dma.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-dma.c,v retrieving revision 1.147.2.1 diff -u -p -r1.147.2.1 ata-dma.c --- ata-dma.c 21 Nov 2007 21:15:00 -0000 1.147.2.1 +++ ata-dma.c 7 Jan 2008 22:18:10 -0000 @@ -75,7 +75,7 @@ ata_dmainit(device_t dev) ch->dma->load = ata_dmaload; ch->dma->unload = ata_dmaunload; ch->dma->alignment = 2; - ch->dma->boundary = 128 * DEV_BSIZE; + ch->dma->boundary = 65536; ch->dma->segsize = 128 * DEV_BSIZE; ch->dma->max_iosize = 128 * DEV_BSIZE; ch->dma->max_address = BUS_SPACE_MAXADDR_32BIT; Index: ata-lowlevel.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-lowlevel.c,v retrieving revision 1.79 diff -u -p -r1.79 ata-lowlevel.c --- ata-lowlevel.c 6 Apr 2007 16:18:59 -0000 1.79 +++ ata-lowlevel.c 7 Jan 2008 22:18:25 -0000 @@ -50,6 +50,8 @@ static int ata_generic_status(device_t d static int ata_wait(struct ata_channel *ch, struct ata_device *, u_int8_t); static void ata_pio_read(struct ata_request *, int); static void ata_pio_write(struct ata_request *, int); +static void ata_tf_read(struct ata_request *); +static void ata_tf_write(struct ata_request *); /* * low level ATA functions @@ -63,6 +65,8 @@ ata_generic_hw(device_t dev) ch->hw.end_transaction = ata_end_transaction; ch->hw.status = ata_generic_status; ch->hw.command = ata_generic_command; + ch->hw.tf_read = ata_tf_read; + ch->hw.tf_write = ata_tf_write; } /* must be called with ATA channel locked and state_mtx held */ @@ -244,28 +248,7 @@ ata_end_transaction(struct ata_request * /* on control commands read back registers to the request struct */ if (request->flags & ATA_R_CONTROL) { - if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CONTROL, ATA_A_4BIT | ATA_A_HOB); - request->u.ata.count = (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT) << 8); - request->u.ata.lba = - ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR)) << 24) | - ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB)) << 32) | - ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB)) << 40); - - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CONTROL, ATA_A_4BIT); - request->u.ata.count |= ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT); - request->u.ata.lba |= - (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR) | - (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB) << 8) | - (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB) << 16)); - } - else { - request->u.ata.count = ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT); - request->u.ata.lba = ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR) | - (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB) << 8) | - (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB) << 16) | - ((ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_DRIVE) & 0xf) << 24); - } + ch->hw.tf_read(request); } /* if we got an error we are done with the HW */ @@ -734,57 +717,96 @@ ata_generic_command(struct ata_request * ATA_PROTO_ATAPI_12 ? 6 : 8); } else { - if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature >> 8); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count >> 8); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba >> 24); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 32); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 40); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit); - } - else { - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); - if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_USE_CHS) { - int heads, sectors; + ch->hw.tf_write(request); + + /* issue command to controller */ + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COMMAND, request->u.ata.command); + } + return 0; +} + +static void +ata_tf_read(struct ata_request *request) +{ + struct ata_channel *ch = device_get_softc(device_get_parent(request->dev)); + struct ata_device *atadev = device_get_softc(request->dev); + + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CONTROL, ATA_A_4BIT | ATA_A_HOB); + request->u.ata.count = (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT) << 8); + request->u.ata.lba = + ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR)) << 24) | + ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB)) << 32) | + ((u_int64_t)(ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB)) << 40); + + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CONTROL, ATA_A_4BIT); + request->u.ata.count |= ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT); + request->u.ata.lba |= + (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR) | + (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB) << 8) | + (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB) << 16)); + } + else { + request->u.ata.count = ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_COUNT); + request->u.ata.lba = ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_SECTOR) | + (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB) << 8) | + (ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB) << 16) | + ((ATA_IDX_INB(ch, ATA_DRIVE) & 0xf) << 24); + } +} + +static void +ata_tf_write(struct ata_request *request) +{ + struct ata_channel *ch = device_get_softc(device_get_parent(request->dev)); + struct ata_device *atadev = device_get_softc(request->dev); + + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_48BIT_ACTIVE) { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba >> 24); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 32); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 40); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_FEATURE, request->u.ata.feature); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COUNT, request->u.ata.count); + if (atadev->flags & ATA_D_USE_CHS) { + int heads, sectors; - if (atadev->param.atavalid & ATA_FLAG_54_58) { - heads = atadev->param.current_heads; - sectors = atadev->param.current_sectors; - } - else { - heads = atadev->param.heads; - sectors = atadev->param.sectors; - } - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, (request->u.ata.lba % sectors)+1); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, - (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads))); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, - (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads)) >> 8); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_IBM | atadev->unit | - (((request->u.ata.lba% (sectors * heads)) / - sectors) & 0xf)); + if (atadev->param.atavalid & ATA_FLAG_54_58) { + heads = atadev->param.current_heads; + sectors = atadev->param.current_sectors; } else { - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, - ATA_D_IBM | ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit | - ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0x0f)); + heads = atadev->param.heads; + sectors = atadev->param.sectors; } - } - /* issue command to controller */ - ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_COMMAND, request->u.ata.command); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, (request->u.ata.lba % sectors)+1); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads))); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, + (request->u.ata.lba / (sectors * heads)) >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, ATA_D_IBM | atadev->unit | + (((request->u.ata.lba% (sectors * heads)) / + sectors) & 0xf)); + } + else { + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_SECTOR, request->u.ata.lba); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_LSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 8); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_CYL_MSB, request->u.ata.lba >> 16); + ATA_IDX_OUTB(ch, ATA_DRIVE, + ATA_D_IBM | ATA_D_LBA | atadev->unit | + ((request->u.ata.lba >> 24) & 0x0f)); + } } - - return 0; } static void --------------000605020808010702070506-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:02:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E293116A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:02:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@sysfault.org) Received: from smtprelay04.ispgateway.de (smtprelay04.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FCB13C43E for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:02:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@sysfault.org) Received: (qmail 26364 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2008 22:35:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO medusa.sysfault.org) (936934@[89.182.20.161]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay04.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 7 Jan 2008 22:35:51 -0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=medusa.sysfault.org) by medusa.sysfault.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JC0ZO-0000Hg-HY for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:35:48 +0100 Received: (from marcus@localhost) by medusa.sysfault.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m07MZilj001095 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:35:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marcus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:35:41 +0100 From: Marcus von Appen To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080107223541.GA1022@medusa.sysfault.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) Subject: Periodical creation of /dev/apmX entries X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Marcus von Appen List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:02:33 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, does somebody know, why the current RELENG_7 tends to generate new /dev/apmX entries every 45 seconds on my Dell Dimension 4600? After a few hours there were around 900 /dev/apm entries, ranging from /dev/apm to dev/apm898. The kernel does not have device apm built in and dmesg does not reveal anything as well. # uname -a FreeBSD medusa.sysfault.org 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #6: Mon Jan 7 23:10:13 CET 2008 root@medusa.sysfault.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MEDUSA i386 Any hints on what could cause this behaviour are really appreciated. If you need further system details, let me know. Regards Marcus --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgqk9o/JpszXavhwRAnMRAJ99dJOTuaLxgj7And6CCXxa9eDhGACfT5CK NsyOanvKAw5V7yYW15hLQkc= =o25d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:12:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C42116A418 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kabaev@gmail.com) Received: from hs-out-2122.google.com (hs-out-0708.google.com [64.233.178.250]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C48B13C468 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kabaev@gmail.com) Received: by hs-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id h53so169230hsh.11 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:12:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=1DAFE/UuJI7OL64QjUojbvuK9VB387skPK1ObPbdbbs=; b=MyiRvDj/H+wUCC52/F2i29Cv5zo/nxun8AUIOpESE/5jYw9Atbb7+OeA8NzcfxkPsByiQvh5f7LVzAl7zb0LolJSz7leHCPRyP1CmYTRVfwvwfkH71Ih24O062qYD70SGV6urXkLGXdZn1JbFj4LNCQ+DSW3G5abR9/CWV/+XVQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=YszQIoLPcqDZG99XgmqIHFDWgOiZz6HCtYS1x1cAWZiHuMEzyB386UdU/c+530jvKPR67uHKyrA18ntwZznsNgS8+6IECphtdzN8xg4Lt6B+JYdYhvg75JzP7AOwX1fJ4pKAulpOQh2oD+VodtbaDgp+TDZL2kReOsbMvKsnnF8= Received: by 10.142.226.2 with SMTP id y2mr3637065wfg.75.1199746037354; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kan.dnsalias.net ( [24.218.183.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71sm1806913wry.12.2008.01.07.14.47.15 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:47:09 -0500 From: Alexander Kabaev To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080107174709.5afb7f7c@kan.dnsalias.net> In-Reply-To: <200801071807.04093.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> References: <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <70e8236f0801070652i35643585k9ca5d55125d55ce9@mail.gmail.com> <200801071807.04093.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/Eyf8Bt6jEcC9WNhU3WZF3_c"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:12:45 -0000 --Sig_/Eyf8Bt6jEcC9WNhU3WZF3_c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:06:55 +0100 Peter Schuller wrote: > > That's it on my loader.conf and for months now I haven't seen a > > panic. Why should I or anyone else happilly running ZFS on i386 be > > denied of doing so? >=20 > 100% agreement. >=20 > If you want to go to extremes, require the user to put=20 > zfs.zfs.run_on_32_bit_and_i_understand_i_am_an_idiot_and_this_is_not_reco= mmended=3D1=20 > in loader.conf, or else have the kernel panic by design on boot. >=20 > But don't make it totally impossible without patching the source, > *please*. >=20 > Obviously the exception is if development for i386 stops such that it > actually does not work. But disallowing it for artificial reasons... > please leave things like that to proprietary hardware/software > vendors trying to squeeze money of out consumers, and leave it out of > a free operation system. >=20 Just a note to put another '100% agreement' sign up. We have plenty of other FSes which are half-cooked and can easily hurt people, but nobody suggests removing them. Why ZFS should be singled out, it is in a way better shape than most of them. --=20 Alexander Kabaev --Sig_/Eyf8Bt6jEcC9WNhU3WZF3_c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHgqvtQ6z1jMm+XZYRAs4uAJ9uWJyj1Efpv7MJ8NVcpRyScdM/DACg6+I+ QAfWxADjYpYVn017axq0ePk= =rwrR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Eyf8Bt6jEcC9WNhU3WZF3_c-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:12:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBB416A475 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com (omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.82.155]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DC613C468 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107231250.AIM2997.omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:50 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107231250.JEQE23023.oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:12:50 +0000 Received: (qmail 3505 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2008 23:12:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jan 2008 23:12:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:12:09 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: Danny Braniss Message-ID: <20080108101209.01800eb6@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rgrav , Tim Kientzle , Peter Schuller , Jason Evans , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:12:53 -0000 On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:49:20 +0200 Danny Braniss wrote: > I'm concerned in trying to solve a problem we are facing here, were > students/researchers > write code, and soon will be hit by incompatible platforms. Encourage them to write their code in something portable, like Java, scheme, python, matlab/octave? If they have to use C/C++/Fortran/ etc, they could get used to distribution in source? The binary compatibility wheel-of-reincarnation is an interesting one to watch. When I was a student and post-grad at Uni, our applications, when shared with colleagues, could very well have needed to run on any of Vax, 68k, MIPS (32 or 64 bit), SPARC (32-bit), ia32, x86 (16-bit: complicated pointers), with a few PowerPC and Alpha systems coming in at the end. So we used matlab or handed around source code. Before that it was all-the-world's-a-vax (unless you were in an IBM shop.) We've all been in a peculiar bubble for a few years where "almost everyone" has been using ia32, and it has been easy to think that that's all there is (except for weirdos), and that therefore binary distribution is OK. I reckon that we're just coming out of that mode, and transiting through something less even, probably until amd64 completes it's clean-sweep and becomes the "one and only" architecture again (to howls of protest from the ARM/embedded crowd...) That'll be a little way off, though... [I'm doing a lot of my own new coding in PLT scheme at the moment, and having a ball with it. (lang/drscheme in ports) Fast enough for what I'm doing, byte-code, static or JIT compiled, and runs everywhere (including Windows and OSX).] What would be *really* cool would be the ability to have a JVM or LLVM back-end in the kernel, as a first-class peer of the ELF loader. Anyone know if anyone has tried such a thing on *BSD (or even Linux, I guess)? Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:20:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4983016A41A for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:20:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com (omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.83.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA4D13C478 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:20:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107232023.WIO28980.omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:20:23 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107232023.SNKU29535.oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:20:23 +0000 Received: (qmail 3644 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2008 23:19:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jan 2008 23:19:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:19:42 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Message-ID: <20080108101942.05471233@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <10319.1199711927@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <10319.1199711927@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kostik Belousov , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:20:25 -0000 On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:47 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > Yes, but you will not see this complication, it will be hidden > in the implementation of malloc(3). How could you hide it inside malloc? Would malloc start returning 0 after receiving the "less mem than desirable" signal? Would it ever go back to returning non-zero? I thought that the idea of things like SIGDANGER was that applications would be written to have a mode where they could shut down some aspect of their operation, and free resources. I don't see how you can do that, autonomously, from within malloc? Maybe introduce a special flavour of pointer value, returned by a special version of malloc for "cache" objects, that the system is allowed to automatically reclaim? Then programs would need to be able to handle SIGSEGV when accessing those... Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:28:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B4116A418; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:28:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx5.mail.ru (mx5.mail.ru [194.67.23.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F09713C44B; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:28:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [78.140.2.250] (port=16688 helo=nuclight.avtf.net) by mx5.mail.ru with esmtp id 1JC1OR-0002lG-00; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:28:31 +0300 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 05:28:28 +0600 To: "Robert Watson" , "Paolo Pisati" References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> From: "Vadim Goncharov" Organization: AVTF TPU Hostel Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=koi8-r MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:28:34 -0000 07.01.08 @ 21:39 Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > >> Yes, in-kernel libalias is "leaking" in sense that it grows unbounded, >> and uses malloc(9) instead if it's own UMA zone with settable limits >> (it frees all used memory, however, on shutting down ng_nat, so I've >> done a workaround restarting ng_nat nodes once a month). But as I see >> the panic string: > > Did you have any luck raising interest from Paulo regarding this > problem? Is there a PR I can take a look at? I'm not really familiar > with the code, so I'd prefer someone who was a bit more familiar with it > looked after it, but I can certainly take a glance. No, i didn't do that yet. Brief search, however, shows kern/118432, though it is not directly kmem issue, and also thread http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:lpXLlrtojg8J:archive.netbsd.se/%3Fml%3Dfreebsd-net%26a%3D2006-10%26t%3D2449333+ng_nat+panic+memory&hl=ru&ct=clnk&cd=9&client=opera in which memory exhaustion problem was predicted. Also, I've heard some rumors about ng_nat memory panics under very heavy load, but a man with 300Mbps router with several ng_nat's said his router is rock stable for half a year - though his router has 1 Gb of RAM and mine only 256 Mb (BTW, it's his system that has crashed recently with kern/118993, but this is not ng_nat kmem issue, as I think). >> panic: kmem_malloc(16384): kmem_map too small: 83415040 total allocated >> >> and memory usage in crash dump: >> >> router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | grep alias >> libalias 241127 30161K - 460568995 128 >> router:~# vmstat -m -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print >> sum}' >> 50407 >> >> ...so why only 50 Mb from 80 were used at the moment of panic? > > This is a bit complicated to answer, but I'll try to capture the gist in > a short space. > > The kernel memory map is an address space in which pages can be placed > to be used by the kernel. Those pages are often allocated using one of > two kernel allocators, malloc(9) which does variable sized memory > allocations, and uma(9) which is a slab allocator and supports caching > of complex but fixed-size objects. Temporary buffers of variable size > or infrequently allocated objects will use malloc, but frequently > allocated objects of fixed size (vnods, mbufs, ....) will use uma. > "vmstat -m" prints out information on malloc allocations, and "vmstat > -z" prints out information on uma allocations. > > To make life slightly more complicated, small malloc allocations are > actually implemented using uma -- there are a small number of small > object size zones reserved for this purpose, and malloc just rounds up > to the next such bucket size and allocations from that bucket. For > larger sizes, malloc goes through uma, but pretty much directly to VM > which makes pages available directly. So when you look at "vmstat -z" > output, be aware that some of the information presented there (zones > named things like "128", "256", etc) are actually the pools from which > malloc allocations come, so there's double-counting. Yes, I've known it, but didn't known what column names exactly mean. Requests/Failures, I guess, is a pure statistics, Size is one element size, but why USED + FREE != LIMIT (on whose where limit is non-zero) ? > There are also other ways to get memory into the kernel map, such as > directly inserting pages from user memory into the kernel address space > in order to implement zero-copy. This is done, for example, when > zero-copy sockets are used. Last time I've tried it on 5.4 it caused panics every several hours on my fileserver, so I thought this feature is not of wide use... > To make life just very slightly more complicated even, I'll tell you > that there are something called "submaps" in the kernel memory map, > which have special properties. One of these is used for mapping the > buffer cache. Another is used for mapping pageable memory used as part > of copy-reduction in the pipe(2) code. Rather than copying twice (into > the kernel and out again) in the pipe code, for large pipe I/O we will > borrow the user pages from the sending process, mapping them into the > kernel and hooking them up to the pipe. So, is the kernel memory map global thing that covers entire kernel or there several maps in kernel, say, one for malloc(), one for other UMA, etc. ? Recalling sysctl values from my previous message: vm.kmem_size: 83415040 vm.kmem_size_max: 335544320 vm.kmem_size_scale: 3 vm.kvm_size: 1073737728 vm.kvm_free: 704638976 So, kvm_size looks like amount of KVA_PAGES, covering entire kernel address space, plugged to every process' address space. But more than 300 megs are used, while machine has only 256 Mb of RAM. I see line in top: Mem: 41M Active, 1268K Inact, 102M Wired, 34M Buf, 94M Free I guess 34M buffer cache is entirely in-kernel memory, is this part of kmem_size or another part of kernel space? What does kmem_size_max and kmem_size_scale do - can kmem grow dynamically? Does kmem_size of about 80 megs mean that 80 megs of RAM is constantly used by kernel for it's needs, including buffer cache, and other 176 megs are spent for processes RSS, or relation is more complicated? >> BTW, current memory usage (April 6.2S, ipf w+ 2 ng_nat's) a week after >> restart is low: >> >> vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | grep alias >> libalias 79542 9983K - 179493840 128 >> vadim@router:~>vmstat -m | awk '{sum+=$3} END {print sum}' >> 28124 >> >>> Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from >>> the general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are >>> still allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of >>> the known issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without >>> resource limits: address space and memory use were potentially >>> unbounded, so Randall recently properly implemented the resource >>> limits on mbuf clusters of large sizes. >> >> I still don't understand what that numbers from sysctl above do exactly >> mean - sysctl -d for them is obscure. How many memory kernel uses in >> RAM, and for which purposes? Is that limit constant? Does kernel swaps >> out parts of it, and if yes, how many? > > The concept of kernel memory, as seen above, is a bit of a convoluted > concept. Simple memory allocated by the kernel for its internal data > structures, such as vnodes, sockets, mbufs, etc, is almost always not > something that can be paged, as it may be accessed from contexts where > blocking on I/O is not permitted (for example, in interrupt threads or > with critical mutexes held). However, other memory in the kernel map may > well be pageable, such as kernel thread stacks for sleeping user threads We can assume for simplicty that their memoru is not-so-kernel but part of process address space :) > (which can be swapped out under heavy memory load), pipe buffers, and > general cached data for the buffer cache / file system, which will be > paged out or discarded when memory pressure goes up. Umm. I think there is no point in swapping disk cache which can be discarded, so the most actual part of kernel memory which is swappable are anonymous pipe(2) buffers? > When debugging a kernel memory leak in the network stack, the usual > starting point is to look at vmstat -m and vmstat -z to see what type of > memory is being leaked. The really big monotonically growing type is > usually the one that's at fault. Often it's the one being allocated > when the system runs out of address space or memory, so sometimes even a > simple backtrace will identify the culprit. OK, here are the zone state from the crash dump: router:~# vmstat -z -M /var/crash/vmcore.32 ITEM SIZE LIMIT USED FREE REQUESTS FAILURES UMA Kegs: 140, 0, 88, 8, 88, 0 UMA Zones: 120, 0, 88, 2, 88, 0 UMA Slabs: 64, 0, 5020, 54, 15454953, 0 UMA RCntSlabs: 104, 0, 1500, 165, 1443452, 0 UMA Hash: 128, 0, 3, 27, 6, 0 16 Bucket: 76, 0, 19, 31, 34, 0 32 Bucket: 140, 0, 24, 4, 58, 0 64 Bucket: 268, 0, 14, 28, 125, 177 128 Bucket: 524, 0, 449, 97, 415988, 109049 VM OBJECT: 132, 0, 2124, 13217, 37014938, 0 MAP: 192, 0, 7, 33, 7, 0 KMAP ENTRY: 68, 15512, 24, 2440, 67460011, 0 MAP ENTRY: 68, 0, 1141, 483, 67039931, 0 PV ENTRY: 24, 452400, 25801, 23499, 784683549, 0 DP fakepg: 72, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 mt_zone: 64, 0, 237, 58, 237, 0 16: 16, 0, 2691, 354, 21894973014, 0 32: 32, 0, 2281, 318, 35838274034, 0 64: 64, 0, 6098, 1454, 172769061, 0 128: 128, 0, 243914, 16846, 637135440, 4 256: 256, 0, 978, 222, 134799637, 0 512: 512, 0, 196, 116, 3216246, 0 1024: 1024, 0, 67, 73, 366070, 0 2048: 2048, 0, 8988, 46, 69855367, 7 4096: 4096, 0, 155, 29, 1894695, 0 Files: 72, 0, 270, 207, 31790371, 0 PROC: 536, 0, 96, 37, 1567418, 0 THREAD: 376, 0, 142, 8, 14326845, 0 KSEGRP: 88, 0, 137, 63, 662, 0 UPCALL: 44, 0, 6, 150, 536, 0 VMSPACE: 296, 0, 48, 56, 1567372, 0 audit_record: 828, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 mbuf_packet: 256, 0, 591, 121, 208413611538, 0 mbuf: 256, 0, 1902, 1226, 202203273445, 0 mbuf_cluster: 2048, 8768, 2537, 463, 5247493815, 2 mbuf_jumbo_pagesize: 4096, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 mbuf_jumbo_9k: 9216, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 mbuf_jumbo_16k: 16384, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 ACL UMA zone: 388, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 NetGraph items: 36, 546, 0, 546, 251943928450, 1170428 g_bio: 132, 0, 1, 231, 336628343, 0 ata_request: 204, 0, 1, 316, 82269680, 0 ata_composite: 196, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 VNODE: 272, 0, 2039, 14523, 40154724, 0 VNODEPOLL: 76, 0, 0, 50, 1, 0 S VFS Cache: 68, 0, 2247, 12929, 41383752, 0 L VFS Cache: 291, 0, 0, 364, 536802, 0 NAMEI: 1024, 0, 372, 12, 126634007, 0 NFSMOUNT: 480, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 NFSNODE: 460, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 DIRHASH: 1024, 0, 156, 184, 131252, 0 PIPE: 408, 0, 24, 30, 822603, 0 KNOTE: 68, 0, 0, 112, 249530, 0 bridge_rtnode: 32, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 socket: 356, 8778, 75, 35, 1488596, 0 ipq: 32, 339, 0, 226, 58472202, 0 udpcb: 180, 8778, 17, 49, 239035, 0 inpcb: 180, 8778, 23, 109, 676919, 0 tcpcb: 464, 8768, 22, 34, 676919, 0 tcptw: 48, 1794, 1, 233, 177851, 0 syncache: 100, 15366, 0, 78, 610893, 0 hostcache: 76, 15400, 78, 72, 13137, 0 tcpreass: 20, 676, 0, 169, 48826, 0 sackhole: 20, 0, 0, 169, 194, 0 ripcb: 180, 8778, 4, 40, 142316, 0 unpcb: 144, 8775, 19, 62, 393432, 0 rtentry: 132, 0, 480, 187, 448160, 0 pfsrctrpl: 100, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfrulepl: 604, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfstatepl: 260, 10005, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfaltqpl: 128, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfpooladdrpl: 68, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfrktable: 1240, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfrkentry: 156, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfrkentry2: 156, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pffrent: 16, 5075, 0, 0, 0, 0 pffrag: 48, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pffrcache: 48, 10062, 0, 0, 0, 0 pffrcent: 12, 50141, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfstatescrub: 28, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfiaddrpl: 92, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfospfen: 108, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 pfosfp: 28, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 IPFW dynamic rule zone: 108, 0, 147, 393, 20301589, 0 divcb: 180, 8778, 2, 42, 45, 0 SWAPMETA: 276, 30548, 2257, 473, 348836, 0 Mountpoints: 664, 0, 8, 10, 100, 0 FFS inode: 132, 0, 2000, 6468, 40152792, 0 FFS1 dinode: 128, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 FFS2 dinode: 256, 0, 2000, 3730, 40152792, 0 -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:31:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FA916A417 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com (omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.83.156]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5D413C458 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:31:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107233100.KTFO18971.omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:31:00 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080107233059.KNHY19013.oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:30:59 +0000 Received: (qmail 4073 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2008 23:30:17 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jan 2008 23:30:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:30:17 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: Dag-Erling =?UTF-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20080108103017.2a6d299d@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <86ejcu7yzq.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <477C82F0.5060809@freebsd.org> <863ateemw2.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801032200.25650.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <8663yac62d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <477E72FC.5070304@freebsd.org> <477EA466.6060204@FreeBSD.org> <477EFEAB.8090807@freebsd.org> <20080107074209.5c20f083@duncan.reilly.home> <86ejcu7yzq.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rg@des.no, Dag-Erling@des.no, =?UTF-8?B?U23DuEBmcmVlYnNkLm9AZGVzLm5vLA==?=, Jason Evans , ?= Tim Kientzle , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter, Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:31:02 -0000 On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:42:49 +0100 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Andrew Reilly writes: > > Danny Braniss writes: > > > what Apple has is one file, that will run the appropiate binary if > > > run on an i386 or a ppc, not 2 different files - universal binary - > > > not rosetta. > > Sure, but that's got a bunch of different driving factors. I > > don't know, for example, whether you can build a four-way > > executable (ia32, x86_64, ppc, ppc64). Well, you probably can, > > but I'd be a bit surprised if anyone has. FreeBSD supports even > > more architectures: it just doesn't scale. >=20 > Two-way i386 + amd64 executables would be very useful, since they can > run on the same hardware with just a change of kernel. How is that useful? I386 executables can run on the same hardware with the same changes of kernel. If you're not planning to change kernel, then you can use amd64-only. I thought that the whole fat-binary issue revolved around binary distribution (also by networked file systems) to *different* architectures. Well, that's what Apple and NeXT seem to have used them for. Apollo, Sun, MIPS/SGI, HP(?) always seemed to manage with PATH configurations and/or variant symlinks. I can't see why that would be any harder for FreeBSD? Cheers, --=20 Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 7 23:39:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE1216A421; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D86213C4CC; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7B447FC8; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:39:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:39:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Vadim Goncharov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080107233157.N64281@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Paolo Pisati Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:39:14 -0000 On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Vadim Goncharov wrote: >> To make life slightly more complicated, small malloc allocations are >> actually implemented using uma -- there are a small number of small object >> size zones reserved for this purpose, and malloc just rounds up to the next >> such bucket size and allocations from that bucket. For larger sizes, >> malloc goes through uma, but pretty much directly to VM which makes pages >> available directly. So when you look at "vmstat -z" output, be aware that >> some of the information presented there (zones named things like "128", >> "256", etc) are actually the pools from which malloc allocations come, so >> there's double-counting. > > Yes, I've known it, but didn't known what column names exactly mean. > Requests/Failures, I guess, is a pure statistics, Size is one element size, > but why USED + FREE != LIMIT (on whose where limit is non-zero) ? Possibly we should rename the "FREE" column to "CACHE" -- the free count is the number of items in the UMA cache. These may be hung in buckets off the per-CPU cache, or be spare buckets in the zone. Either way, the memory has to be reclaimed before it can be used for other purposes, and generally for complex objects, it can be allocated much more quickly than going back to VM for more memory. LIMIT is an administrative limit that may be configured on the zone, and is configured for some but not all zones. I'll let someone with a bit more VM experience follow up with more information about how the various maps and submaps relate to each other. >> The concept of kernel memory, as seen above, is a bit of a convoluted >> concept. Simple memory allocated by the kernel for its internal data >> structures, such as vnodes, sockets, mbufs, etc, is almost always not >> something that can be paged, as it may be accessed from contexts where >> blocking on I/O is not permitted (for example, in interrupt threads or with >> critical mutexes held). However, other memory in the kernel map may well be >> pageable, such as kernel thread stacks for sleeping user threads > > We can assume for simplicty that their memoru is not-so-kernel but part of > process address space :) If it is mapped into the kernel address space, then it still counts towards the limit on the map. There are really two critical resources: memory itself, and address space to map it into. Over time, the balance between address space and memory changes -- for a long time, 32 bits was the 640k of the UNIX world, so there was always plenty of address space and not enough memory to fill it. More recently, physical memory started to overtake address space, and now with the advent of widely available 64-bit systems, it's swinging in the other direction. The trick is always in how to tune things, as tuning parameters designed for "memory is bounded and address space is infinite" often work less well when that's not the case. In the early 5.x series, we had a lot of kernel panics because kernel constants were scaling to physical memory rather than address space, so the kernel would run out of address space, for example. >> (which can be swapped out under heavy memory load), pipe buffers, and >> general cached data for the buffer cache / file system, which will be paged >> out or discarded when memory pressure goes up. > > Umm. I think there is no point in swapping disk cache which can be > discarded, so the most actual part of kernel memory which is swappable are > anonymous pipe(2) buffers? Yes, that's what I meant. There are some other types of pageable kernel memory, such as memory used for swap-backed md devices. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 00:06:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A06A16A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA5013C43E for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so4401046uge.37 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:06:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=K4QJthPcj03nWhRNw9UWGOKI+k9Y4o7gHR3ILw2isxE=; b=NQimth5ZPrhdyYKBTKY03J/mcPG2894xrEeetoknIWOLQIVtxCJru65MNGMfx0xm2opX/DBU16KxX3B/pQz/JtQ6UDBMxrC8SgrKaM9yn1lt85pF3ZWCX09i7MJHZxc8A3iGT4dKpZpg/VMQPbGD3xPvspNYfli2af29FNHPyP8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=BEf/cGUp9TU/BkZ4JLKzu4srjSou5kW1xX554ohwQSg/TbCsY7rbg5hVN4Nybu73m5Ze77fUeYaGcdcvLcgHMIHvLGZkc53InEhEt/JmZlHAh4lTffGAqgcGoCFpCiBw17PDggAf51QMyE5B0sSi12/03uOxU/W3BvpfwDaJsuw= Received: by 10.66.221.18 with SMTP id t18mr50707ugg.80.1199750793513; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:06:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:06:33 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Andrew Reilly" In-Reply-To: <20080108101942.05471233@duncan.reilly.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <10319.1199711927@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080108101942.05471233@duncan.reilly.home> X-Google-Sender-Auth: cc9c200272b8bd92 Cc: Kostik Belousov , Peter Jeremy , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:06:35 -0000 On 07/01/2008, Andrew Reilly wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:47 +0000 > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > > Yes, but you will not see this complication, it will be hidden > > in the implementation of malloc(3). > > How could you hide it inside malloc? Would malloc start > returning 0 after receiving the "less mem than desirable" > signal? Would it ever go back to returning non-zero? I'm with Andrew on this one. The only (sensible) way I could see it being hidden behind malloc() is if malloc() blocks until sufficient memory becomes available. I thought the real idea behind SIGDANGER was to tell the kernel "I kind of know what I'm doing, so if you gonna kill something don't kill me" and that was achieved by AIX not SIGKILLing processes that had sigaction(SIGDANGER) != SIG_IGN. Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 00:17:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBF516A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:17:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BCF13C442 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:17:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39B917105; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:17:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m080H4kP015095; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:17:04 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Igor Mozolevsky" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:06:33 GMT." Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:17:04 +0000 Message-ID: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Kostik Belousov , Andrew Reilly , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:17:08 -0000 In message , "Igor Mozolevsky" writes: >On 07/01/2008, Andrew Reilly wrote: >> On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:47 +0000 >> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >> >> > Yes, but you will not see this complication, it will be hidden >> > in the implementation of malloc(3). >> >> How could you hide it inside malloc? Would malloc start >> returning 0 after receiving the "less mem than desirable" >> signal? Would it ever go back to returning non-zero? > >I'm with Andrew on this one. The only (sensible) way I could see it >being hidden behind malloc() is if malloc() blocks until sufficient >memory becomes available. You should read some recent literature on malloc(3), my own and Jasons papers are good places to start. For performance reasons, malloc(3) will hold on to a number of pages that theoretically could be given back to the kernel, simply because it expects to need them shortly. Such parameters and many others of the malloc implementation can be tweaked to "waste" more or less memory, in response to a sensibly granular indication from the kernel about how bad things are. Also, many subsystems in the kernel could adjust their memory use in response to a "memory pressure" indication, if memory is tight, we could cache vnodes and inodes less agressively, if things are going truly bad, we can even ditch all non-active entries from these caches. If one implements this with three states: Green - "all clear" Yellow - "tight" - free one before you allocate one if you can. Red - "all out" - free all that you sensibly can. And implemented strategies like I propose above (and have proposed for the last 10 years), then it is very unlikely that the system would ever get into the red state, because the yellow state will mitigate and reduce the memory pressure. Nothing prevents an intelligent process from listening in and doing sensible things, firefox could ditch the memory cache of pages for instance. But we can't get anywhere until some VM wizard produces the three "lamps" for us to look at in the first place, that's where we have been stuck for the last 10 years. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 00:28:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE80016A417 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com (omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.83.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C0D13C447 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080108002857.DAWY28980.omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:28:57 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080108002856.IBKF25013.oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:28:56 +0000 Received: (qmail 8323 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2008 00:28:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 00:28:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:28:12 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Message-ID: <20080108112812.13ffab9f@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kostik Belousov , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:28:59 -0000 On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:17:04 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > For performance reasons, malloc(3) will hold on to a number of pages > that theoretically could be given back to the kernel, simply because > it expects to need them shortly. Aah, OK, so there's some essentially system-level caching going on behind the scenes, and that's readily malleable for this sort of thing. I thought that you were proposing some way to propagate the "yellow" or "red" conditions to user-program activity through malloc, which seems hard, since the only official out-of-band signal there is a zero return. I'll have to track down your papers, though, because I thought that the whole problem revolved around the fact that malloc(3) doesn't hand out physical pages at all: that was left up to the kernel vm pager to do as needed. Is it zeroed (and therefore touched/present) pages that malloc keeps a stash of? > Such parameters and many others of the malloc implementation can > be tweaked to "waste" more or less memory, in response to a sensibly > granular indication from the kernel about how bad things are. > > Also, many subsystems in the kernel could adjust their memory use > in response to a "memory pressure" indication, if memory is tight, > we could cache vnodes and inodes less agressively, if things are > going truly bad, we can even ditch all non-active entries from > these caches. I agree. That sort of auto-tuning of the space/speed trade-off would be extremely cool. > If one implements this with three states: > > Green - "all clear" > > Yellow - "tight" - free one before you allocate one if you can. > > Red - "all out" - free all that you sensibly can. I imagine that even if the accounting can be managed efficiently, the specification of the specific thresholds would be fairly tricky to specify... Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 00:57:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F52016A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:57:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1C813C459 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so4409003uge.37 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:57:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=ueq/Gw7VkaqBMwcYyNyWP3/sAeMZRE8mYFnHPCRhL1o=; b=gon4cqHJeZRsRMIh+UDNV34JUUSECNTejehwFZn46Jw6cyGe/tiSAQ0/ndxEQZB3T1Pd1TpF8xlDdMC+SyoAn0V8H4DBagtUBbqrM4geyMxY1wfECXKoygczQb5SMTxxP221fK05DFCQIVmW/MyR+4iaGra8WIz4JwS2Z7tm/hI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=F2jqQkDBOpNOmMmad1XEh/GapRNU7QaYZDPrjz1ofIMXiHC410W4j9iewqJbwoC/3NyMqL2+V268ophcqvTNcZxJI5YrtxFzgWSxh/BbJ2oiMT2jwfScP55Pjn+Dg8wc7MGmLX3BQFKQeyWndVVplrHIK2PpjJRK4NY5+JjaVe0= Received: by 10.66.236.13 with SMTP id j13mr93177ugh.30.1199753841373; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:57:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:57:21 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 098994f64434a7c2 Cc: Kostik Belousov , Andrew Reilly , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:57:23 -0000 On 08/01/2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , "Igor > Mozolevsky" writes: > >On 07/01/2008, Andrew Reilly wrote: > >> On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:18:47 +0000 > >> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >> > >> > Yes, but you will not see this complication, it will be hidden > >> > in the implementation of malloc(3). > >> > >> How could you hide it inside malloc? Would malloc start > >> returning 0 after receiving the "less mem than desirable" > >> signal? Would it ever go back to returning non-zero? > > > >I'm with Andrew on this one. The only (sensible) way I could see it > >being hidden behind malloc() is if malloc() blocks until sufficient > >memory becomes available. > > You should read some recent literature on malloc(3), my own and > Jasons papers are good places to start. Can you provide some refs/links, unfortunately googling for PKH+malloc() is pretty futile! > For performance reasons, malloc(3) will hold on to a number of pages > that theoretically could be given back to the kernel, simply because > it expects to need them shortly. > > Such parameters and many others of the malloc implementation can > be tweaked to "waste" more or less memory, in response to a sensibly > granular indication from the kernel about how bad things are. > > Also, many subsystems in the kernel could adjust their memory use > in response to a "memory pressure" indication, if memory is tight, > we could cache vnodes and inodes less agressively, if things are > going truly bad, we can even ditch all non-active entries from > these caches. I don't think it's the kernel that is being ill-mannered (unless, of course, it's running ZFS ;-)) by eating up the memory, it's the user processes that consume most resources. > Nothing prevents an intelligent process from listening in and > doing sensible things, firefox could ditch the memory cache of > pages for instance. How do you propose they 'eavesdrop' on the kernel? Baring in mind that most apps nowadays are written for Linux and are hacked to be portable afterwards (just look at the number of patches in the ports tree), it's much simpler to write a signal handler than FreeBSD-kernel specific listening code... > But we can't get anywhere until some VM wizard produces the > three "lamps" for us to look at in the first place, that's where > we have been stuck for the last 10 years. I think the problem is not in providing the lamps to indicate the state, but figuring out an algorithm for judging green->yellow and yellow->green transitions... Igor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 01:04:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1955016A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:04:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62D713C447 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:04:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5DC558C0E1; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:33:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:33:58 -0600 To: Matthew Dillon Message-ID: <20080108003358.GB28366@soaustin.net> References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:14:06 +0000 Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:04:15 -0000 On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 02:11:38PM -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: > Personally speaking, if I had the chance to inherit FreeBSD's MP work, > I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Regardless of the performance > you are getting out of it, your code base is a huge mess and it looks > completely unmanagable to me. Well, ... don't, then. No one who's followed developments for the last few years was under any different impression. So why post this to the FreeBSD lists? Why not just invent the better mousetrap and let the results speak for themselves? I guess I'm being dense, but I can't see what difference it makes to you at this point what FreeBSD does, or does not, get right. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 01:37:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC09016A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:37:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DD513C455 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:37:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E12996FD; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:37:31 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:37:31 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3582823.OzzedFMMDR"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Kostik Belousov , Andrew Reilly , Poul-Henning Kamp , Igor Mozolevsky , Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:37:34 -0000 --nextPart3582823.OzzedFMMDR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > For performance reasons, malloc(3) will hold on to a number of pages > that theoretically could be given back to the kernel, simply because > it expects to need them shortly. Although the primary concern is malloc(), I would like to point out that=20 various programs implementing copying garbage collection could more=20 efficiently give memory back to the system than malloc(), and could therefo= r=20 benefit more than malloc() from some kind of feedback from the kernel. There was concern over the complexity involved with intelligently doing=20 something about the memory pressure hints in userspace, but this does not=20 apply here since the allocator/garbage collection would be the equivalent o= f=20 malloc() and complexity there would not affect application code. The problem with malloc() being that, unless I am missing something, malloc= =20 will never be able to give back memory to the kernel except insofar as the= =20 memory mapped is continuously unused between some location and the break (i= n=20 the case of sbrk()) or over the entire range (mmap()). malloc() cannot forc= e=20 this to be the case, since pointers must remain valid. The possibility of=20 reclamation is then often going to be limited to completely unused space=20 being held by malloc() for future use, rather than also applying to areas=20 already used for allocation. Programs implementing copying GC, or able to for some other reason to move= =20 allocated memory around, could compact the heap and give back left-over=20 memory. In some cases this would only entail a temporary improvement due to= =20 defragmentation, but in others (such as a long-running program spiking in=20 memory use, only then to drop a lot of that memory) it could have a pretty= =20 massive effect on memory use. Where a malloc() using program might be unable to sbrk() or munmap() becaus= e=20 there happens to be some left-over non-free piece of memory at the top of t= he=20 mapped range, a GC could use indications from the system to ensure this is= =20 not the case (depending on details of the implementation; for example,=20 compactation of tenured generations could be forced early, etc). (This is not to say I am aware of any implementation that actually supports= =20 this, but on the other hand perhaps that is due to the lack of operating=20 systems that provide the required feedback.) =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart3582823.OzzedFMMDR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHgtPkDNor2+l1i30RArqwAJ9CbTrjN7XwhdAXzszTjCbnfBGjEACfT50H /oBJrHvuIDdDPJpxLC8RSog= =0sNw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3582823.OzzedFMMDR-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 01:56:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364CA16A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:56:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from n-butcher=freebsd-current=freebsd.org=sbibybnr@fusiongol.com) Received: from smtp02.dentaku.gol.com (smtp02.dentaku.gol.com [203.216.5.72]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0780A13C459 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:55:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from n-butcher=freebsd-current=freebsd.org=sbibybnr@fusiongol.com) Received: from pat.gol.co.jp ([203.216.1.191] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp02.dentaku.gol.com with esmtpa (Dentaku) id 1JC3h7-000778-Pw for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:55:57 +0900 Message-ID: <4782D82D.1010207@fusiongol.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:55:57 +0900 From: Nathan Butcher User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV GOL X-Abuse-Complaints: abuse@gol.com Subject: Remaining issues before RELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:56:00 -0000 I just wanted to post about some issues at this stage in the release cycle. * ZFS - It's been working well for me, as long as I don't thrash it. Recently I haven't managed to cause it to panic on amd64. I boosted my RAM to 4GB because its now cheap enough to be an impulse purchase. I also noticed recently that recent Solaris Express builds have ZFS up at version 9, whereas the FreeBSD implementation is at version 6 - so I assume ZFS on FreeBSD will have some ways to go yet (and there will be a "zpool upgrade" in everyone's future.) * if_ral - I've noticed instability in the driver since mid last year. I have a USB wireless dongle that uses the driver, and I have noticed just like all the other users who have mentioned it - that it occasionally "cuts out". * G33 chipset detection in the kernel - going into RELEASE? or will it not make it? Otherwise FreeBSD7-RC1 is holding up well for me. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 02:00:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C848716A468 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:00:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A93313C44B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:00:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUA00CGGYWBB4I0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m08207n5089798; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:00:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:00:07 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <1199722906.1545.3.camel@localhost> To: Tom Evans Message-id: <4782D927.1060307@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <4781AAA2.9070207@gmail.com> <1199722906.1545.3.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: more acd0+ihc9r problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:00:24 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tom Evans wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 23:29 -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >> I am using 8-current (including the latest pmap mods) amd64 on a >> MSI Neo-F mobo (P35+IHC9R with intergrated re(4) and sata) with a >> Plextor px-755a SATA dvd+/-rw. I have the following issues with >> /dev/acd0: >> >> If there is blank media present at boot time (have not tested >> with non-blank media) depending on media type the following >> happens: >> >> 1. re(4) disappears (cd-r) 2. named fails but re(4) is present >> (cd-rw) 3. goes into infinite stall (not hang) (dvd-r) >> >> If write is attempted to media depending on media type the >> following happens: >> >> 1. Fails to fixate due to timeout (cd-r) 2. Fails to write >> anything (cd-rw and dvd-r) >> > > Doctor, it hurts when I do this... > > 1) Define disappears - the hardware is no longer present or visible > to the OS? What does pciconf -lv look like in both failure and > success states? I don't have the time atm to make a diff but the only diffs are re0 is not on dmesg and/or pciconf -lv > 2) How does named fail? Can you restart named? What error messages > are output in both cases? Inability to resolve any addrs... restarting works inermittently and only for a few minutes at most... no error messages except for lack of resolution (I use it as a local dns cache instead of serving any names of it's own) > 3) Where in the kernel does it stall? Can you break in with the > debugger? It stalls right after detecting the device details for /dev/acd0 > > Tom - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHgtknjRvRjGmHRgQRAo2HAKCAF3TlQRfHO85/WHKsIdGAj3kSQgCbBwTw PnA87+EAiq1YoYN38I2m/cI= =cot/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 02:09:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785FA16A4A9 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A82313C469 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so13439889waf.3 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:09:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; bh=mIThnhj96+LVwWF0KLL02yRRxOSoG4lTKQUH8Sjo/TY=; b=B6PjliKqWVSyFikWEyfI2DUUW/fIZ7x7+wrn8idoqcAlI/z9ppL3E08+hdUl6AocA9oE2xCvI464NhM3RDTjZZ/5U0qGbQipN4RFMRm9B3LfCN0SsEbceXdk7OKrWjSVq8UPIvh3iAXIalM84WaKcGP/R+zkFQX4Zi+jK7YOuyg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=vSPxiG8GLcbUTZXAvGP+u5eHt1vNN7jMPoCwvx0t+PE+J5xqdc7RUncgC1gHKNGI4KAxk/Cw8eVuJZE2CtzuVsaaHiMa4bZE5r7/5xaYBvOpixB6n+PV5udhTtn3LSZmXqF8tYrEYsiW9rcN7ZS7VhMdPCrUEcU59AHwfgtdhRQ= Received: by 10.114.204.7 with SMTP id b7mr23323326wag.124.1199756593253; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.185.2 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:43:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:43:13 -0800 From: snowcrash+freebsd Sender: schneecrash@gmail.com To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0ec2b2ee0a383040 Subject: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:09:54 -0000 i've moved from a fbsd 62r + jails system, to fbsd 70rc1. i've set up ZFS, zfs list NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT z 6.49G 212G 247M /z z/home 28.5K 212G 28.5K /home z/j 988M 212G 988M /j z/tmp 408K 212G 408K /tmp z/usr 5.17G 212G 5.17G /usr z/var 103M 212G 102M /var now trying to setup jails. following threads, http://groups.google.com/group/lucky.freebsd.current/browse_thread/thread/d6499483a264f3b9 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-December/080920.html i have, grep jail /etc/rc.conf ifconfig_nfe0_alias0="inet 10.0.0.200 netmask 255.255.255.255" # jTEST jail_enable="YES" jail_set_hostname_allow="NO" jail_list="TEST" jail_TEST_hostname="jTEST.internal.net" jail_TEST_ip="10.0.0.200" jail_TEST_rootdir="/j/jTEST" jail_TEST_devfs_enable="YES" jail_TEST_devfs_ruleset="zfsenable" and, cat /etc/devfs.rules [zfsenable=10] add path 'zfs' unhide i've populated my jail ROOT from previously created ServiceTemplates, exactly as I'd done on 62R, per instructions at, http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/jails-application.html when i 1st try, /etc/rc.d/jail start Configuring jails: set_hostname_allow=NO. Starting jails:df: /j/jTEST/dev: No such file or directory mount: /j/jTEST/dev: No such file or directory /etc/rc.d/jail: WARNING: devfs_domount(): Unable to mount devfs on /j/jTEST/dev /etc/rc.d/jail: WARNING: devfs_mount_jail: devfs was not mounted on /j/jTEST/dev cd: can't cd to /j/jTEST/dev cannot start jail "TEST": jail: getpwnam: root: No such file or directory there's a missing dir. not surprising, as step (4) @ .../handbook/jails-application.html had me rm -R bin boot lib libexec mnt proc rescue sbin sys usr dev <<<<<----- forcing it here (i do't think this is really what needs to be done) with, mkdir -p /j/jTEST/dev just to test, then, /etc/rc.d/jail start Configuring jails:. Starting jails: cannot start jail "TEST": jail: getpwnam: root: No such file or directory clearly gets farther, but still no luck starting the jails. apparently, something's changed in the process of devfs creation/mount now that i'm using ZFS? or, have i missed an obvious step? do i perhaps need to set /j/jTEST as a separate ZFS mountpoint? e.g., zfs create z/j/jTEST zfs set mountpoint=/j/jTEST z/j/jTEST ? any suggestions ? thanks! From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 02:35:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D61416A417 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:35:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kabaev@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5023A13C459 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:35:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kabaev@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c14so1692654anc.13 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:35:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=zDVdK9tyE7kJ4oFJ09a7BUS/WRYU4tj7yeZwCMS7gMM=; b=gkD6+mERSuFHpzFuUGr/Fbr/Xa1NFVBV7lOkklP3d4CxDL7AlF0B0NxizHF9b7MtsfCEwOn/ZDPLzyEwnCXqwIMCij19L5hZzsOoMh7kQhv+R8Y0wcb/XRbEQ7kC6zeYcc9U8vcMhEhGV0Ox8NZ8uMPJ8vSYZgfB6zuFA0H18Sk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=lcA9mzx4iTzBxVikXm3j0AMCzMjULBw4w8DE6mYqPCphx+ui0/oGqAbGKXMwq4q7iOUPzWMzni5wY6A5BGHbls05KyjygSN286m71HLsAu7hrK+Ljp3afDhLQMS14YJMEXTOXarcBoQDRi3XDgW2orzomKesZQdlmTwC1LyHutM= Received: by 10.100.8.10 with SMTP id 10mr44069810anh.59.1199759705522; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from kan.dnsalias.net ( [24.218.183.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a38sm5808989rnc.6.2008.01.07.18.35.03 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:35:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:34:58 -0500 From: Alexander Kabaev To: "Igor Mozolevsky" Message-ID: <20080107213458.6131e825@kan.dnsalias.net> In-Reply-To: References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/Vl9e4e3Uw+a5TqR.zjv6n5i"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:35:06 -0000 --Sig_/Vl9e4e3Uw+a5TqR.zjv6n5i Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:57:21 +0000 "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote: > Can you provide some refs/links, unfortunately googling for > PKH+malloc() is pretty futile! Try PHK+malloc or just phkmalloc for better results. Looking for misspelled acronyms can be a frustrating and futile undertaking indeed :) --=20 Alexander Kabaev --Sig_/Vl9e4e3Uw+a5TqR.zjv6n5i Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHguFSQ6z1jMm+XZYRAqirAKC+lCltaVwvt5XYC0oz89r5yXlf8wCfZceX XbB7F4Rwobr+9zzmyUVf2UY= =6F3Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Vl9e4e3Uw+a5TqR.zjv6n5i-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 03:32:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA09F16A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:32:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net (vms173003pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C669513C447 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:32:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.3.231] ([70.21.165.95]) by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JUB002QS31T7WA4@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:29:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:30:18 -0500 From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-reply-to: <20080108101209.01800eb6@duncan.reilly.home> To: Andrew Reilly Message-id: <1199763018.718.40.camel@RabbitsDen> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20080108101209.01800eb6@duncan.reilly.home> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Jason Evans , Tim Kientzle , rgrav , Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:32:06 -0000 On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 10:12 +1100, Andrew Reilly wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:49:20 +0200 > Danny Braniss wrote: > > > I'm concerned in trying to solve a problem we are facing here, were > > students/researchers > > write code, and soon will be hit by incompatible platforms. > > Encourage them to write their code in something portable, like > Java, scheme, python, matlab/octave? If they have to use > C/C++/Fortran/ etc, they could get used to distribution in > source? > > The binary compatibility wheel-of-reincarnation is an interesting > one to watch. When I was a student and post-grad at Uni, our > applications, when shared with colleagues, could very well have > needed to run on any of Vax, 68k, MIPS (32 or 64 bit), SPARC > (32-bit), ia32, x86 (16-bit: complicated pointers), with a few > PowerPC and Alpha systems coming in at the end. So we used > matlab or handed around source code. Before that it was > all-the-world's-a-vax (unless you were in an IBM shop.) We've all > been in a peculiar bubble for a few years where "almost everyone" > has been using ia32, and it has been easy to think that that's all > there is (except for weirdos), and that therefore binary > distribution is OK. I reckon that we're just coming out of that > mode, and transiting through something less even, probably until > amd64 completes it's clean-sweep and becomes the "one and only" > architecture again (to howls of protest from the ARM/embedded > crowd...) That'll be a little way off, though... > > [I'm doing a lot of my own new coding in PLT scheme at the > moment, and having a ball with it. (lang/drscheme in ports) I suspect you are not running contemporary 7.0 there: twinhead# uname -a FreeBSD twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Tue Jan 1 19:22:56 EST 2008 root@twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/TWINHEAD i386 twinhead# make install ===> drscheme-370 is marked as broken: Fails to install (signal 11). *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/ports/lang/drscheme. twinhead# > Fast enough for what I'm doing, byte-code, static or JIT compiled, > and runs everywhere (including Windows and OSX).] > > What would be *really* cool would be the ability to have a JVM or > LLVM back-end in the kernel, as a first-class peer of the ELF > loader. Anyone know if anyone has tried such a thing on *BSD (or > even Linux, I guess)? If you have Linux distribution handy, you can look at /usr/src/linux/Documentation/binfmt_misc.txt. At least its Java incarnation has been around for a while. I have not seen widespread use of it, but then again, I have not been looking too hard. To be fair, compatibility of the JVMs is the story in and of its own, and most certainly is OT for this list. > > Cheers, > -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 03:51:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33A916A41B; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avatar@mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw) Received: from www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw (www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw [140.138.150.166]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4069913C47E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avatar@mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw) Received: by www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw (qmail, from userid 1000) id 1FD528C9A86; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:51:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw (qmail) with ESMTP id 0BC228C9A84; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:51:00 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:50:59 +0800 (CST) From: Tai-hwa Liang To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <200801041256.43153.jhb@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <0801081149011.85336@www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw> References: <474D81DB.7020004@FreeBSD.org> <200801031652.20807.jhb@freebsd.org> <0801041816427.55589@www.mmlab.cse.yzu.edu.tw> <200801041256.43153.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Remko Lodder , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, kib@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: kern/118258 sysctl causing panics on 7.0-xxx] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:51:03 -0000 On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, John Baldwin wrote: > On Friday 04 January 2008 05:19:28 am Tai-hwa Liang wrote: >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, John Baldwin wrote: >>> On Thursday 29 November 2007 10:53:32 pm Tai-hwa Liang wrote: >>>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Remko Lodder wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> So as per Jeff's information, can someone from the -current >>>>> list either contact jeff or try to resolve the problems >>>>> mentioned? :) >>>> >>>> This is a longstanding bug which also exists in RELENG_6. It turns > out >>>> that 'sysctl kern.ttys' after a terminal device is removed could trigger >>>> this panic reliably. For example, do 'sysctl kern.ttys' multiple times >>>> after detaching an USB serial-to-rs232 cable or a PCMCIA modem card. >>>> >>>> Alternatively, following script would demo the panic if you don't have >>>> a physically removable terminal device: >>>> >>>> #!/bin/sh >>>> # >>>> # Warning! Running this script as root will panic your CURRENT box... >>>> # >>>> while true; do >>>> kldload dcons >>>> kldunload dcons >>>> ls /dev >>>> sysctl kern.ttys >>>> sleep 1 >>>> done >>>> >>>> This seems to be a race between devfs and destroy_dev(), Cc'ing kib@ >>>> since he probably has more clues in this area. >>> >>> Try this patch. Also available at >>> http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ttys_sysctl.patch >> >> With this patch, -CURRENT no longer boots and panics as follows: > > Fixed, was missing an unlock at the bottom of the loop. Patch is updated at > the same URL. This one works like a charm! I've tried with USB-to-RS232 cable as well as aforementioned script. Now -CURRENT wouldn't panic by dumping kern.ttys. Great work! -- Thanks, Tai-hwa Liang From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 06:05:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7C516A41A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:05:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com (omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.92.155]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE9713C4EB for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080108060520.QVK18906.omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:05:20 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080108060519.EKAU25221.oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:05:19 +0000 Received: (qmail 28823 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2008 06:04:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 06:04:27 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:04:27 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" Message-ID: <20080108170427.2a86e0af@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <1199763018.718.40.camel@RabbitsDen> References: <20080108101209.01800eb6@duncan.reilly.home> <1199763018.718.40.camel@RabbitsDen> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jason, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Evans , Tim Kientzle , rgrav , Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 06:05:21 -0000 On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:30:18 -0500 "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" wrote: > > [I'm doing a lot of my own new coding in PLT scheme at the > > moment, and having a ball with it. (lang/drscheme in ports) > > I suspect you are not running contemporary 7.0 there: > twinhead# uname -a > FreeBSD twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Tue > Jan 1 19:22:56 EST 2008 > root@twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/TWINHEAD > i386 > twinhead# make install > ===> drscheme-370 is marked as broken: Fails to install (signal 11). > *** Error code 1 > > Stop in /usr/ports/lang/drscheme. Nope: andrew@duncan:/usr/home/andrew $ mzscheme Welcome to MzScheme v372 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2007 PLT Scheme Inc. > ^D andrew@duncan:/usr/home/andrew $ uname -a FreeBSD duncan.reilly.home 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #6: Sat Jan 5 17:53:17 EST 2008 root@duncan:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DUNCAN amd64 :-) You'll find a patch with my name on it at: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=118808 That fix has been incorporated up-stream, so 372 now builds cleanly for me from tarballs, but something is still broken on jkoshy's 8-current system, so he hasn't updated the port yet. > > Fast enough for what I'm doing, byte-code, static or JIT compiled, > > and runs everywhere (including Windows and OSX).] > > > > What would be *really* cool would be the ability to have a JVM or > > LLVM back-end in the kernel, as a first-class peer of the ELF > > loader. Anyone know if anyone has tried such a thing on *BSD (or > > even Linux, I guess)? > > If you have Linux distribution handy, you can look > at /usr/src/linux/Documentation/binfmt_misc.txt. Or http://www.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de/~rguenth/linux/binfmt_misc.html Thanks for the pointer: that's pretty close to what I was thinking of. There's also the PE loader work in NetBSD... > At least its Java > incarnation has been around for a while. I have not seen widespread use > of it, but then again, I have not been looking too hard. Yeah, most existing foreign-executable formats have lots of extraneous environment cruft related to compatibility with other operating systems, that doesn't really lend themselves to this sort of application. On the other hand, an LLVM or QEMU launcher could be trying to run "native" freebsd applications, just ones that hadn't been fully compiled yet. Sort of like FX-32! on Alpha Windows-NT, or the e-coff (?failing memory?) high-level object format produced by the MIPSCO compilers to enable full-program optimization with separately-compiled libraries. One of these day's I'll have a go at it, if someone else doesn't get to it first... [This is more -arch or -talk than -current, so I'll stop now.] Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 07:56:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E701416A41A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: from outcold.yadt.co.uk (outcold.yadt.co.uk [81.187.204.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8FD13C43E for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by outcold.yadt.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DA53F1C; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:19 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at yadt.co.uk Received: from outcold.yadt.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (outcold.yadt.co.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZ5qUsM77QnG; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: by outcold.yadt.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0D9283F15; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:17 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:56:17 +0000 From: David Taylor To: Adam McDougall Message-ID: <20080108075616.GA21296@outcold.yadt.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Adam McDougall , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org References: <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781227B.5020800@rcn.com> <47814EAB.70405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080106233254.GE1138@egr.msu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:56:21 -0000 On Sun, 06 Jan 2008, Adam McDougall wrote: > > The amount of kmem required for a particular workload on any one machine can vary > alot. Believe it or not, it is one of my AMD64 systems that I had to increase kmem > to 1.6G to prevent kmem panics (it does some heavy nightly rsyncs); versus just > having kmem set to 1G on a i386 system that constantly serves out files to the > internet with various rsyncs running through the day. Note that you're probably running into an integer overflow in arc.c if vm.kmem_size is set to 1GB or higher on i386. As a result kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.size won't grow above kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.c_min... I posted to freebsd-fs about it, but haven't heard anything from pjd, yet. Sadly, after fixing that problem I started encountering the kmem_map too small panics. -- David Taylor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 08:05:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1AA16A41A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5640F13C478 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 9517 invoked by uid 399); 8 Jan 2008 08:05:10 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 8 Jan 2008 08:05:10 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: <47832EB5.8000905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:05:09 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071119) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: <200801071352.42690.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200801071352.42690.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: panic: NTFS VOP_STRATEGY failed X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:05:11 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > On Wednesday 26 December 2007 06:01:47 pm Doug Barton wrote: >> I have a dual boot system, and from time to time I use mount_ntfs to read >> stuff from the windows partition. Doing that today I got the following >> with a system built on 23 December: >> >> #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 >> 195 pcpu.h: No such file or directory. >> in pcpu.h >> (kgdb) bt >> #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 >> #1 0xc056a0ae in boot (howto=260) >> at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:409 >> #2 0xc056a36b in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available. >> ) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:563 >> #3 0xc05586a2 in _lockmgr (lkp=0xc90049e8, flags=8212, >> interlkp=0xc9004a18, >> td=0xc92d5220, file=0xc077c0ed "/usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c", >> line=2213) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_lock.c:319 > > We'd need the actual panic message I think. Sure. I updated my -current tonight, then did the following: mount_ntfs /dev/ad0s1 /mnt/tmp cd /mnt/tmp find . IFS=' ' for file in `find . -type f`; do cp $file /tmp rm /tmp/${file##*/} done Took about 45 seconds to panic with: ntfs_strategy: ntfs_readattr failed panic: NTFS VOP_STRATEGY failed: bp=0xd9369988, vp=0xc9a55880, rc=7 cpuid=1 hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 08:32:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FA216A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:32:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E1F13C465 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:32:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB85C17105; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:31:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m088VwAa016664; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:31:58 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Igor Mozolevsky" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:57:21 GMT." Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:31:58 +0000 Message-ID: <16663.1199781118@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Kostik Belousov , Andrew Reilly , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:32:01 -0000 In message , "Igor Mozolevsky" writes: >> You should read some recent literature on malloc(3), my own and >> Jasons papers are good places to start. > >Can you provide some refs/links, unfortunately googling for >PKH+malloc() is pretty futile! http://phk.freebsd.dk/pubs -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 09:14:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E17F16A417 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:14:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC75413C4D3 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:14:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A4920BB; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:14:02 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69539207E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:14:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5500B8449F; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:14:02 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Matthew Dillon References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:14:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> (Matthew Dillon's message of "Mon\, 7 Jan 2008 14\:11\:38 -0800 \(PST\)") Message-ID: <86d4scr86d.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Mikhail Teterin , efinleywork@efinley.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:14:13 -0000 Matthew Dillon writes: > [snip] The arrogance you display in your response is simply staggering. I should have known better than to engage in any kind of conversation with you... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 09:20:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B10316A419; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:20:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A4513C448; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB1B4825E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 04:19:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:19:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080108091311.O1123@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:20:00 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Ivan Voras wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > >> Actually, with mbuma, this has changed -- mbufs are now allocated from the >> general kernel map. Pipe buffer memory and a few other things are still >> allocated from separate maps, however. In fact, this was one of the known >> issues with the introduction of large cluster sizes without resource >> limits: address space and memory use were potentially unbounded, so Randall >> recently properly implemented the resource limits on mbuf clusters of large >> sizes. > > Is this related to reported panics with ZFS and a heavy network load (NFS > mostly)? Handling resource exhaustion is a tricky issue, because sometimes it takes resources to make resources available. In the presence of a really greedy (that is to say, effectively leaking) subsystem, there isn't really any way to recover. There are really two alternatives: deadlock (no resources are available, so no progress can be made) or panic (no resources are available so do the only thing we can). Subsystems are relied upon to impose their own limits, or at least provide those limits to UMA so that UMA can impose them, as "appropriate" limits are entirely dependent on context. It's indeed the case that the more load the system is under, the more resources are in use, and therefore the lower the threshold for any particular system to contribute to a potential exhaustion of resources. If the network is at a very high watermark, then indeed ZFS has to use less to exhaust it. Normally, subsystems like the network stack and file systems rely on "back pressure" to cause them to release memory -- the network stack largely allocates using UMA, so the VM low memory event frees up its caches, and it also implements its own per-protocol low memory handlers, doing things like discarding TCP reassembly buffers, etc. VM also knows to discard un-dirtied pages. Pawel has a patch to make ZFS more agressively call low memory event handlers when it gets a bit too greedy, which I saw in the re@ MFC queue yesterday, it you might find this improves behavior a bit more. However, things do get quite tricky when you're low on resources, because you waiting indefinitely for resources rather than panicking may actually be worse, because the system may never recover. That's why constaining initial resource and responding to back pressure early is critical, in order to avoid getting into situations where the only possible response is to hang or panic. There's an interesting paper by Gibson, et al, from CMU on economic models for "investing" memory pages in different sorts of cache -- prefetch, read-ahead, buffer cache, etc, and is a good read for getting a grasp of just how tricky the balance is to find. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 10:25:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9BD16A420 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:25:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gelsemap@superhero.nl) Received: from superman.superhero.nl (superhero.nl [82.95.198.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C0013C46A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:25:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gelsemap@superhero.nl) Received: (qmail 13812 invoked by uid 80); 8 Jan 2008 10:25:21 -0000 Received: from 195.50.100.20 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gelsemap) by www.superhero.nl with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:25:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> In-Reply-To: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:25:21 +0100 (CET) From: "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\)" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:25:40 -0000 On Tue, January 8, 2008 02:43, snowcrash+freebsd wrote: > i've moved from a fbsd 62r + jails system, to fbsd 70rc1. > > i've set up ZFS, > > zfs list > NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT > z 6.49G 212G 247M /z > z/home 28.5K 212G 28.5K /home > z/j 988M 212G 988M /j > z/tmp 408K 212G 408K /tmp > z/usr 5.17G 212G 5.17G /usr > z/var 103M 212G 102M /var > > now trying to setup jails. following threads, > > http://groups.google.com/group/lucky.freebsd.current/browse_thread/thread/d6499483a264f3b9 > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-December/080920.html > > i have, > > > grep jail /etc/rc.conf > ifconfig_nfe0_alias0="inet 10.0.0.200 netmask 255.255.255.255" # jTEST > jail_enable="YES" > jail_set_hostname_allow="NO" > jail_list="TEST" > jail_TEST_hostname="jTEST.internal.net" > jail_TEST_ip="10.0.0.200" > jail_TEST_rootdir="/j/jTEST" > jail_TEST_devfs_enable="YES" > jail_TEST_devfs_ruleset="zfsenable" > > and, > > cat /etc/devfs.rules > [zfsenable=10] > add path 'zfs' unhide > > i've populated my jail ROOT from previously created ServiceTemplates, > exactly as I'd done on 62R, per instructions at, > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/jails-application.html > > when i 1st try, > > /etc/rc.d/jail start > Configuring jails: set_hostname_allow=NO. > Starting jails:df: /j/jTEST/dev: No such file or directory > mount: /j/jTEST/dev: No such file or directory > /etc/rc.d/jail: WARNING: devfs_domount(): Unable to mount devfs on > /j/jTEST/dev > /etc/rc.d/jail: WARNING: devfs_mount_jail: devfs was not mounted on > /j/jTEST/dev > cd: can't cd to /j/jTEST/dev > cannot start jail "TEST": > jail: getpwnam: root: No such file or directory > > there's a missing dir. > > not surprising, as step (4) @ .../handbook/jails-application.html had me > > rm -R bin boot lib libexec mnt proc rescue sbin sys usr dev <<<<<----- > > > forcing it here (i do't think this is really what needs to be done) with, > > mkdir -p /j/jTEST/dev > > just to test, then, > > /etc/rc.d/jail start > Configuring jails:. > Starting jails: cannot start jail "TEST": > jail: getpwnam: root: No such file or directory If I remember correctly there was no password file for in the jail. I think you have to rerun a certain command. Of course I do not remember the command :( The command should create the master password database. Also you have to run within in the jail newaliases to create the aliases file, do a touch /etc/fstab to stop complaints about unable to read mountpoints. No more information in the /var/log/messages when starting the jails? Furthermore I am not sure that you can run a jail on a zfs file system. The setup I have is that I run my jails on ufs and have a zfs filesystem available within the jail. Rgds, Patrick > > clearly gets farther, but still no luck starting the jails. > > apparently, something's changed in the process of devfs creation/mount > now that i'm using ZFS? or, have i missed an obvious step? > > do i perhaps need to set /j/jTEST as a separate ZFS mountpoint? e.g., > > zfs create z/j/jTEST > zfs set mountpoint=/j/jTEST z/j/jTEST > > ? > > any suggestions ? > > thanks! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 11:32:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF2F16A420 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from services.ipt.ru (services.ipt.ru [194.62.233.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3183513C442 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from bb.ipt.ru ([194.62.233.89]) by services.ipt.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.54 (FreeBSD)) id 1JCChD-0006bm-8e for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:32:39 +0300 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org From: Boris Samorodov Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:31:06 +0300 Message-ID: <43645861@bb.ipt.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: Strange behaviour of stock gcc FreeBSD 7/CURRENT X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:32:40 -0000 Hi All, I've just noticed some new patches for OpenOffice.org which contains: ----- +Strange behaviour of stock gcc of FreeBSD 7. + +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so +/usr/lib/libgcc_s.so +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 +libgcc_s.so.1 +. This sould be +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 +/lib/libgcc_s.so.1 + +However gcc42 from ports behaves correctly; +and +# gcc42 -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 +/usr/local/lib/gcc-4.2.3/gcc/i386-portbld-freebsd7.0/4.2.3/../../../libgcc_s.so.1 +# gcc42 -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so +/usr/local/lib/gcc-4.2.3/gcc/i386-portbld-freebsd7.0/4.2.3/../../../libgcc_s.so +. ----- It's true for both i386 and amd64 CURRENT. For i386: ----- tb% uname -a FreeBSD tb.ipt.ru 8.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #0: Sat Jan 5 15:55:54 MSK 2008 root@tb.ipt.ru:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 tb% gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so tb% gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 libgcc_s.so.1 tb% ----- Is it a known bug/feature/else? Thanks! WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone & Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 09:27:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054D616A417; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98D213C447; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5220C209C; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:27:05 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376652089; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:27:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2C36C8449F; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:27:05 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Andrew Reilly References: <477C82F0.5060809@freebsd.org> <863ateemw2.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801032200.25650.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <8663yac62d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <477E72FC.5070304@freebsd.org> <477EA466.6060204@FreeBSD.org> <477EFEAB.8090807@freebsd.org> <20080107074209.5c20f083@duncan.reilly.home> <86ejcu7yzq.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080108103017.2a6d299d@duncan.reilly.home> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:27:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080108103017.2a6d299d@duncan.reilly.home> (Andrew Reilly's message of "Tue\, 8 Jan 2008 10\:30\:17 +1100") Message-ID: <864pdor7km.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:36:26 +0000 Cc: Dag-Erling@des.no, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8=40freebsd=2Eo=40des=2Eno?=@des.no, Jason Evans , =?utf-8?Q?=2C?=@des.no, =?us-ascii?Q?=3FISO-8859-1=3FQ=3Frg?=@des.no, ?= Tim Kientzle , =?us-ascii?Q?=3D?=@des.no, Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:27:14 -0000 Andrew Reilly writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Two-way i386 + amd64 executables would be very useful, since they can > > run on the same hardware with just a change of kernel. > How is that useful? I386 executables can run on the same hardware > with the same changes of kernel. ...but they cannot take advantage of the full capabilities of amd64 (not just address space, but larger number of general-purpose registers etc.) Even further, an i386 binary built for maximum compatibility cannot assume SSE2 support, while an amd64 binary can. Conversely, there are (admittedly not many, but some) workloads that run faster on i386 than on amd64. Imagine having a single binary distribution and a single install CD or DVD that runs unmodified on i386 and amd64 - that would cover 90% or more of our user base. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 15:00:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A373C16A421; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B827C13C474; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C311A3C1A; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:37:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Doug Barton Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:05:19 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200801071352.42690.jhb@freebsd.org> <47832EB5.8000905@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47832EB5.8000905@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801080905.20321.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: panic: NTFS VOP_STRATEGY failed X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:00:04 -0000 On Tuesday 08 January 2008 03:05:09 am Doug Barton wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > On Wednesday 26 December 2007 06:01:47 pm Doug Barton wrote: > >> I have a dual boot system, and from time to time I use mount_ntfs to read > >> stuff from the windows partition. Doing that today I got the following > >> with a system built on 23 December: > >> > >> #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > >> 195 pcpu.h: No such file or directory. > >> in pcpu.h > >> (kgdb) bt > >> #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > >> #1 0xc056a0ae in boot (howto=260) > >> at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:409 > >> #2 0xc056a36b in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available. > >> ) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:563 > >> #3 0xc05586a2 in _lockmgr (lkp=0xc90049e8, flags=8212, > >> interlkp=0xc9004a18, > >> td=0xc92d5220, file=0xc077c0ed "/usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c", > >> line=2213) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_lock.c:319 > > > > We'd need the actual panic message I think. > > Sure. I updated my -current tonight, then did the following: > > mount_ntfs /dev/ad0s1 /mnt/tmp > cd /mnt/tmp > find . > IFS=' > ' > for file in `find . -type f`; do > cp $file /tmp > rm /tmp/${file##*/} > done > > Took about 45 seconds to panic with: > > ntfs_strategy: ntfs_readattr failed > panic: NTFS VOP_STRATEGY failed: > bp=0xd9369988, vp=0xc9a55880, rc=7 > cpuid=1 This is a different panic (your first one was in lockmgr()). This one I don't really know what is wrong. It gets an E2BIG error trying to ask NTFS for the raw offset of the file's block on disk via ntfs_readattr() which means it asked for too much of the attribute (so to speak). I could see this happening perhaps if it walked off the end of the file, but ntfs_strategy() already checks for that. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 15:00:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6D816A468 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C513C47E for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BB91A4D83; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:37:27 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Marcus von Appen Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:39:07 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080107223541.GA1022@medusa.sysfault.org> In-Reply-To: <20080107223541.GA1022@medusa.sysfault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801080939.07720.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Subject: Re: Periodical creation of /dev/apmX entries X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:00:04 -0000 On Monday 07 January 2008 05:35:41 pm Marcus von Appen wrote: > Hi, > > does somebody know, why the current RELENG_7 tends to generate new > /dev/apmX entries every 45 seconds on my Dell Dimension 4600? > > After a few hours there were around 900 /dev/apm entries, ranging from > /dev/apm to dev/apm898. > > The kernel does not have device apm built in and dmesg does not reveal > anything as well. > > # uname -a > FreeBSD medusa.sysfault.org 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #6: Mon Jan 7 23:10:13 CET 2008 root@medusa.sysfault.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MEDUSA i386 > > Any hints on what could cause this behaviour are really appreciated. > If you need further system details, let me know. ACPI creates /dev/apmX entries each time you open /dev/apm, so you have something that is stat()'ing or open()'ing /dev/apm every 45 seconds. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 15:08:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E882116A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:08:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF43D13C458 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:08:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id l8so1752200nzf.13 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:08:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=eabFeUjJ77bQUMAhQ60s+5Bi3o0Sq8oEpwvk4T5cw6c=; b=f8IQlxCxqlNBKbq3QIHgQlEsbF25iGBaDKmNZJQQe9hPFvFEsJ9O4XDFY9WDbIPkycpII362mnqc+cvk6ZPzYLyuwWGABNFta+Qd86KlSZi5nN9MxAWV2H1+JCSvolTA/18Btnx1hCKl1DdF2eI8hHZpgzdCe2QWi5yKG+IPGDA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=En5Zdy9TpY7E2Lenp2XHIIO1DCZbEQiR4J8EdNcnzK+8t1sJVDEZCsggLvr8K3zb8QM8OztO7wMiC6+le0cPpOcQjNv1Elbn7O1r9BRAgc8wqX9ckja8/KCZiY9UMV3cuZxSUqkPH402uWXUMB9GEzSOI0y5dKh/Nygnr2Ydt10= Received: by 10.115.15.1 with SMTP id s1mr6434566wai.0.1199804884651; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.185.2 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70f41ba20801080708u4b05b37cta9315a0e0df5116f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:08:04 -0800 From: snowcrash+freebsd Sender: schneecrash@gmail.com To: "Gelsema, P (Patrick)" In-Reply-To: <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d031f9fb447c0baf Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:08:06 -0000 hi patrick, > If I remember correctly there was no password file for in the jail. I > think you have to rerun a certain command. Of course I do not remember the > command :( The command should create the master password database. using the ServiceJail model, after populating the jail skeleton and running mergemaster, the two commands i run are, /usr/bin/cap_mkdb /j/jSKEL/etc/login.conf /usr/sbin/pwd_mkdb -d /j/jSKEL/etc -p /j/j/etc/master.passwd which should take care of that. > Also you have to run within in the jail newaliases to create the aliases > file, do a touch /etc/fstab to stop complaints about unable to read > mountpoints. hm. i did not do that this time around. i'd built my jail-world with *both* NO_MAILWRAPPER=true & NO_SENDMAIL=true, so i mayhave caused myself a problem. rather than cp'ing bins, tobe safe, i'll just rebuild world ... and see in a bit if that helps. thanks. > Furthermore I am not sure that you can run a jail on a zfs file system. > The setup I have is that I run my jails on ufs and have a zfs filesystem > available within the jail. ?? if that's true, then that renders the rest moot -- and i have a problem. atm, i have cat /etc/fstab /dev/mirror/gm0s1a /bootdir ufs rw 1 1 /dev/mirror/gm0s1b none swap sw 0 0 /dev/acd0 /cdrom cd9660 ro,noauto 0 0 /j/jMROOT /j/jTEST nullfs ro 0 0 /j/s/jTEST /j/jTEST/s nullfs rw 0 0 zfs list NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT z 5.23G 213G 250M /z z/data 20K 213G 20K /data z/home 28.5K 213G 28.5K /home z/j 23K 213G 23K /j z/tmp 406K 213G 406K /tmp z/usr 4.88G 213G 4.88G /usr z/var 105M 213G 105M /var where z/j is a zfs mount. i *can* access the jail, and do just about 'all' i need to in the jail (builds, exec, etc). but do *not* yet know if, by running the jail on zfs space whehter i've compromised anything. do you have a reference for your comment? or, perhaps, someone else can comment, as well? thanks! From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 15:54:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BF316A419; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wxs@atarininja.org) Received: from syn.atarininja.org (syn.csh.rit.edu [129.21.60.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC0113C448; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wxs@atarininja.org) Received: by syn.atarininja.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 752055C34; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:38:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:38:16 -0500 From: Wesley Shields To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080108153816.GC45359@atarininja.org> References: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> <70f41ba20801080708u4b05b37cta9315a0e0df5116f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70f41ba20801080708u4b05b37cta9315a0e0df5116f@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\)" Subject: Re: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:54:04 -0000 On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 07:08:04AM -0800, snowcrash+freebsd wrote: > hi patrick, > > > If I remember correctly there was no password file for in the jail. I > > think you have to rerun a certain command. Of course I do not remember the > > command :( The command should create the master password database. > > using the ServiceJail model, after populating the jail skeleton and > running mergemaster, the two commands i run are, > > /usr/bin/cap_mkdb /j/jSKEL/etc/login.conf > /usr/sbin/pwd_mkdb -d /j/jSKEL/etc -p /j/j/etc/master.passwd > > which should take care of that. > > > Also you have to run within in the jail newaliases to create the aliases > > file, do a touch /etc/fstab to stop complaints about unable to read > > mountpoints. > > hm. i did not do that this time around. i'd built my jail-world with > *both* NO_MAILWRAPPER=true & NO_SENDMAIL=true, so i mayhave caused > myself a problem. > > rather than cp'ing bins, tobe safe, i'll just rebuild world ... and > see in a bit if that helps. > > thanks. > > > Furthermore I am not sure that you can run a jail on a zfs file system. > > The setup I have is that I run my jails on ufs and have a zfs filesystem > > available within the jail. > > ?? > > if that's true, then that renders the rest moot -- and i have a problem. > > atm, i have > > cat /etc/fstab > /dev/mirror/gm0s1a /bootdir ufs rw 1 1 > /dev/mirror/gm0s1b none swap sw 0 0 > /dev/acd0 /cdrom cd9660 ro,noauto 0 0 > /j/jMROOT /j/jTEST nullfs ro 0 0 > /j/s/jTEST /j/jTEST/s nullfs rw 0 0 > > zfs list > NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT > z 5.23G 213G 250M /z > z/data 20K 213G 20K /data > z/home 28.5K 213G 28.5K /home > z/j 23K 213G 23K /j > z/tmp 406K 213G 406K /tmp > z/usr 4.88G 213G 4.88G /usr > z/var 105M 213G 105M /var > > where z/j is a zfs mount. > > i *can* access the jail, and do just about 'all' i need to in the jail > (builds, exec, etc). > > but do *not* yet know if, by running the jail on zfs space whehter > i've compromised anything. > > do you have a reference for your comment? or, perhaps, someone else > can comment, as well? I have a jail running in a ZFS environment. wxs@ack ~ % jls JID IP Address Hostname Path 3 192.168.1.100 asterisk /u/jails/asterisk wxs@ack ~ % mount | grep "data" data on /u (zfs, NFS exported, local, noatime) wxs@ack ~ % mount | grep devfs devfs on /dev (devfs, local) devfs on /u/jails/asterisk/dev (devfs, local) wxs@ack ~ % -- WXS From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 16:24:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14BA16A420 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:24:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F4013C442 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:24:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schneecrash@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so13864035waf.3 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:24:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=1aA9sdbJvBDHX2Gpu3/YBWn/GYG2pjDiyXOOO/aTf4U=; b=lPH8OE4r8rgwu4r2J6mY+FS+Ij9VQxvHyLhXwY/isoexqqPAPMlotn5gc4alE6OzGEjp+SM6k3f3kVnYOMLXagfKUQusJMOKByftsgkhok4IWcWvceNnh+sJ+iqcIFtHnnBdWd3j3sIsMMNINCEAbf1AlwrmL/90kSAlCZJscio= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=H3ObNtaXkPfWhd8tEQi4R5i17AcjKm1ZMIYKkt2GdtyoK3k8difWXsRbGbe+f2fs2ZKw8tWqvCDCtZ3nV6KkcKn/uaAEeC3WqU9Po+Ku1BkjjoDSCYx78MeqkHPvqsB7+7IBAEihSmzBSrLhrJr7xLurVno7emY68LmjCpniPf4= Received: by 10.114.59.1 with SMTP id h1mr471882waa.39.1199809484675; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.185.2 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:24:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70f41ba20801080824y60f162b9w636e30b23e8f57ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:24:44 -0800 From: snowcrash+freebsd Sender: schneecrash@gmail.com To: "Wesley Shields" In-Reply-To: <20080108153816.GC45359@atarininja.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> <70f41ba20801080708u4b05b37cta9315a0e0df5116f@mail.gmail.com> <20080108153816.GC45359@atarininja.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2bc6e99351fe52a3 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Gelsema, P \(Patrick\)" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:24:45 -0000 hi wesley, > I have a jail running in a ZFS environment. > > wxs@ack ~ % jls > JID IP Address Hostname Path > 3 192.168.1.100 asterisk /u/jails/asterisk > wxs@ack ~ % mount | grep "data" > data on /u (zfs, NFS exported, local, noatime) > wxs@ack ~ % mount | grep devfs > devfs on /dev (devfs, local) > devfs on /u/jails/asterisk/dev (devfs, local) > wxs@ack ~ % here's what i have jls JID IP Address Hostname Path 1 10.0.0.200 jTEST.internal.net /j/jTEST mount z on / (zfs, local) devfs on /dev (devfs, local) /dev/mirror/gm0s1a on /bootdir (ufs, local, soft-updates) z/data on /data (zfs, local) z/home on /home (zfs, local) z/j on /j (zfs, local) z/tmp on /tmp (zfs, local) z/usr on /usr (zfs, local) z/var on /var (zfs, local) /j/jMROOT on /j/jTEST (nullfs, local, read-only) /j/s/jTEST on /j/jTEST/s (nullfs, local) devfs on /j/jTEST/dev (devfs, local) which, i think?, says the same. argh. confused. following too many threads with partial solutions ... can you share your setup-a-jail-on-a-zfs'd-host steps? thanks! From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 17:58:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB79916A418; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:58:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9A513C43E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:58:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m08Hwlld076162; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:58:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m08HwlOg076161; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:58:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:58:47 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, ivoras@FreeBSD.ORG, pjd@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801070230k14f6x567c8caf75d4944d@mail.gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:58:48 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, ivoras@FreeBSD.ORG, pjd@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:58:50 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > > > Let try to think how we can warn people clearly about proper tunning and > > what proper tunning actually means. I think we should advise increasing > > KVA_PAGES on i386 and not only vm.kmem_size. We could also warn that > > running ZFS on 32bit systems is not generally recommended. Any other > > suggestions? > > I'd suggest we do give all three warnings (KVA_PAGES, kmem_size, i386) > at once, preferably both when the ZFS module loads and when a zpool is > created. I think it's important that the tree pieces of information be > given at the same time so the user doesn't need to hunt solutions > after panics. How about including the URL of the ZFS tuning guide in the warning message: http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide It contains all the necessary information for both i386 and amd64 machines. It can also easily be updated if necessary so people always get the most up-to-date information. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Documentation is like sex; when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's better than nothing." -- Dick Brandon From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:03:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BB416A417; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:03:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAE113C45A; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:03:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m08HxqY8083336; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m08HxqTp083335; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:59:52 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, ivoras@freebsd.org, pjd@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080108175952.GA83277@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <9bbcef730801070230k14f6x567c8caf75d4944d@mail.gmail.com> <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:03:08 -0000 On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 06:58:47PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Ivan Voras wrote: > > Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > > > > > Let try to think how we can warn people clearly about proper tunning and > > > what proper tunning actually means. I think we should advise increasing > > > KVA_PAGES on i386 and not only vm.kmem_size. We could also warn that > > > running ZFS on 32bit systems is not generally recommended. Any other > > > suggestions? > > > > I'd suggest we do give all three warnings (KVA_PAGES, kmem_size, i386) > > at once, preferably both when the ZFS module loads and when a zpool is > > created. I think it's important that the tree pieces of information be > > given at the same time so the user doesn't need to hunt solutions > > after panics. > > How about including the URL of the ZFS tuning guide in the > warning message: > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide > > It contains all the necessary information for both i386 and > amd64 machines. It can also easily be updated if necessary > so people always get the most up-to-date information. > The tuning information belongs in the zfs(8) manual page. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 17:52:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E1816A468 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:52:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB9213C469 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:52:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m08HpwbA075926; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:52:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m08HpwE9075925; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:51:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:51:58 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801081751.m08HpwE9075925@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <478166B3.5040901@pacific.net.sg> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:52:01 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:05:33 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: Should we simply disallow ZFS on FreeBSD/i386? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:52:03 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > Gary Corcoran wrote: > > > > I believe that 95% of hardware today that realistically is capable of > > I do not think so. Actually I think it's less than 95%. Of the seven machines I have at home, only one is 64bit capable -- and that one happens to be a DEC-Alpha which doesn't support ZFS. Of the machines at our office room (dunno the count, must be about a dozen) only one is amd64 capable -- and that one happens to be a workstation that needs to run 32bit i386 because of X11 graphics support (and I don't really need to use ZFS on it). > > running ZFS is also capable of running 64bit code, so that potential ZFS > > All new hardware since Intel started supporting 64 bits on their > Pentiums is. Nope. There's still hardware produced today that's not 64bit-capable. FWIW, my NFS server at home is an EPIA PD-10k board with a VIA C3 processor (32bit only). I chose that one because of the very low power consumption. It works perfectly well for my purposes. > So, just make it a requirement for ZFS to run only on 64 bit upward. I would certainly vote against such nonsense. However, I think it does make sense to print a warning if an admin tries to use ZFS on an i386 machine. It wouldn't hurt anyway. It's quite normal that running certain software requires some tuning so that software will work at all. Typical examples are squid (uses a lot of sysv message queues) and PostgreSQL (semaphores) -- they won't run without tuning, except for trivial setups that don't really do much. The ZFS tuning issues aren't much different. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible." -- John William Chambless From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:10:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BC816A469 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:10:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3308813C448 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:10:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m08IA6ZA040578; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m08IA3mY040575; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:10:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200801081810.m08IA3mY040575@apollo.backplane.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> <86d4scr86d.fsf@ds4.des.no> Cc: Mikhail Teterin , efinleywork@efinley.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:10:24 -0000 : :Matthew Dillon writes: :> [snip] : :The arrogance you display in your response is simply staggering. I :should have known better than to engage in any kind of conversation with :you... : :DES The arrogance you display in your posting is simply staggering. I should have known better then to reply to it. What the hell kind of answer did you expect, DES? -Matt From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:24:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A34816A46C; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:24:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A55813C455; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:24:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BEE2089; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:24:22 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65985207E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:24:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 414098449F; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:24:22 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:24:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Tue\, 8 Jan 2008 18\:58\:47 +0100 \(CET\)") Message-ID: <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: pjd@FreeBSD.ORG, ivoras@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:24:31 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > How about including the URL of the ZFS tuning guide in the > warning message: > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide > > It contains all the necessary information for both i386 and > amd64 machines. Actually, it fails to mention the most important bit: vfs.zfs.arc_max, which allows you to restrict the amount of memory used by ZFS to something comfortably smaller than vm.kmem_size. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:37:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BA016A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:37:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE8713C461 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:37:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCDC20A0; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:36:55 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F8C2049; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:36:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8C32F844B6; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:36:55 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Peter Schuller References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:36:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> (Peter Schuller's message of "Tue\, 8 Jan 2008 02\:37\:31 +0100") Message-ID: <86tzlonozc.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Andrew Reilly , Peter Jeremy , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky , Kostik Belousov Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:37:04 -0000 Peter Schuller writes: > The problem with malloc() being that, unless I am missing something, > malloc will never be able to give back memory to the kernel except > insofar as the memory mapped is continuously unused between some > location and the break (in the case of sbrk()) or over the entire > range (mmap()). Actually, malloc(3) can use madvise(2) to notify the kernel that arbitrary pages in the arena are unused and can be discarded. The current implementation will do so if the H option is specified. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:39:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6645216A41B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3208613C458 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE6A20BC; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:39:16 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCE12049; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:39:16 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7D5A08449F; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:39:16 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Nathan Butcher References: <4782D82D.1010207@fusiongol.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:39:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4782D82D.1010207@fusiongol.com> (Nathan Butcher's message of "Tue\, 08 Jan 2008 10\:55\:57 +0900") Message-ID: <86myrgnovf.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Remaining issues before RELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:39:25 -0000 Nathan Butcher writes: > * if_ral - I've noticed instability in the driver since mid last year. I > have a USB wireless dongle that uses the driver, and I have noticed just > like all the other users who have mentioned it - that it occasionally > "cuts out". Umm, aren't you confusing ral(4) with ural(4)? The former is only used for PCI (and possibly CardBus) adapters while the latter is only used for USB adapters. They are *very* different beasts. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 18:59:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A4716A417; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:59:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx27.mail.ru (mx27.mail.ru [194.67.23.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FF113C447; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:59:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [82.117.84.33] (port=40240 helo=nuclight.avtf.net) by mx27.mail.ru with esmtp id 1JCJfF-0007kH-00; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:59:06 +0300 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:58:56 +0600 To: "Robert Watson" References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> <20080107233157.N64281@fledge.watson.org> From: "Vadim Goncharov" Organization: AVTF TPU Hostel Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=koi8-r MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080107233157.N64281@fledge.watson.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:59:09 -0000 08.01.08 @ 05:39 Robert Watson wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > >>> To make life slightly more complicated, small malloc allocations are >>> actually implemented using uma -- there are a small number of small >>> object size zones reserved for this purpose, and malloc just rounds up >>> to the next such bucket size and allocations from that bucket. For >>> larger sizes, malloc goes through uma, but pretty much directly to VM >>> which makes pages available directly. So when you look at "vmstat -z" >>> output, be aware that some of the information presented there (zones >>> named things like "128", "256", etc) are actually the pools from which >>> malloc allocations come, so there's double-counting. >> >> Yes, I've known it, but didn't known what column names exactly mean. >> Requests/Failures, I guess, is a pure statistics, Size is one element >> size, but why USED + FREE != LIMIT (on whose where limit is non-zero) ? > > Possibly we should rename the "FREE" column to "CACHE" -- the free count > is the number of items in the UMA cache. These may be hung in buckets > off the per-CPU cache, or be spare buckets in the zone. Either way, the > memory has to be reclaimed before it can be used for other purposes, and > generally for complex objects, it can be allocated much more quickly > than going back to VM for more memory. LIMIT is an administrative limit > that may be configured on the zone, and is configured for some but not > all zones. And every unlimited zone after growing on demand can cause kmem_map/kmem_size panics, or some will low-memeory panics with message about another map? > I'll let someone with a bit more VM experience follow up with more > information about how the various maps and submaps relate to each other. That would be good, as I still don'tany idea about exact meaning of those sysctls :-) Thans for explanations, though. How is our Mr. VM nowadays?.. >>> (which can be swapped out under heavy memory load), pipe buffers, and >>> general cached data for the buffer cache / file system, which will be >>> paged out or discarded when memory pressure goes up. >> >> Umm. I think there is no point in swapping disk cache which can be >> discarded, so the most actual part of kernel memory which is swappable >> are anonymous pipe(2) buffers? > > Yes, that's what I meant. There are some other types of pageable kernel > memory, such as memory used for swap-backed md devices. Hmm, I do remember messages about malloc-backed md devices panics (with workaround advices to switch to swap-backed md), yes... -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 19:14:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095BB16A420 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:14:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hwhartman@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D046413C45B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hwhartman@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so8222894rvb.43 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:14:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=61L8hiua8JGf3+ndEq44N7wKSfvJGPrVh1j9a2voOx4=; b=LKmLJBpzwVLB/PyUNwov1Sq6cvzUGOoL4/OHvsvspvSyBuevzY80jXjjWGrg2Uq2YAYX9U/QebyPcYGOGuGKPEWdCGg+EIQ31oURUA1fDgx4iri8/rbU8PzgwUESSn0tzvDoglrrO9i26v5mcQdWKfKXkIIX1E2jjzVqnkFimhE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KKQLN9pKugdusGLGAwTVSNWLrI0eFcXR20NBBJmUKhW4GgFtYhmUyO4MGXxfq33c5JZTj6huKB6SllGwYy44zDH64rsZ/UQk0cfgKq9/U6/RZHU8qN9/qxxOh6/63R58Nwsqrhy3zRVMMvWhAbvhCAqWMNoGCIJnZkl5up2+paU= Received: by 10.141.37.8 with SMTP id p8mr6231306rvj.53.1199819667433; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.192.4 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:14:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:14:27 -0800 From: "Hanns Hartman" To: "Benjamin Close" In-Reply-To: <477D7BFE.9040609@clearchain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <477D7BFE.9040609@clearchain.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: panic about half the time with WPA+WPI during startup X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:14:28 -0000 Hi Benjamin, I tried the p4 version of the driver and I still get kernel panics with the same frequency as before. Let me know if you need any log files that were generated while using the p4 version. thanks HH On Jan 3, 2008 4:21 PM, Benjamin Close wrote: > Hanns Hartman wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am running FreeBSD 7-Prerelease on an Lenovo T61. I > > am having problems with the WPI driver doing WPA TKIP authentication during > > startup. Sometimes it works perfectly with no problems, other times it > > kernel panics (see the kgdb output below). > > > > If you need more debugging information or if you need me to try > > something just let me know and I will be happy to help. Also if this > > email is not appropriate for this list please feel free to direct me > > to the appropriate one. > > > > thanks > > Hanns > > > > Here is how I start WPA auth on my WPI wireless card. > > > > > Hi Hans, > Can you try the p4 version of the driver and see if you still have > the same problems. > Details about how to get it are at: > > http://www.clearchain.com/wiki/wpi/ > > Cheers, > Benjamin > -- Hanns Hartman Identity Engines Inc. - Senior Software Engineer hhartman@idengines.com Western Collegiate Cycling - Conference Director hhartman@usacycling.org From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 19:22:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF05D16A420; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E61213C468; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B9D4819E; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:22:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Vadim Goncharov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080108191822.M26471@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080104163352.GA42835@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> <9bbcef730801040958t36e48c9fjd0fbfabd49b08b97@mail.gmail.com> <200801061051.26817.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <9bbcef730801060458k4bc9f2d6uc3f097d70e087b68@mail.gmail.com> <4780D289.7020509@FreeBSD.org> <4780E546.9050303@FreeBSD.org> <9bbcef730801060651y489f1f9bw269d0968407dd8fb@mail.gmail.com> <4780EF09.4090908@FreeBSD.org> <47810BE3.4080601@FreeBSD.org> <4781113C.3090904@FreeBSD.org> <47814B53.50405@FreeBSD.org> <20080106223153.V72782@fledge.watson.org> <20080107152305.A19068@fledge.watson.org> <20080107233157.N64281@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:22:37 -0000 On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Vadim Goncharov wrote: >>> Yes, I've known it, but didn't known what column names exactly mean. >>> Requests/Failures, I guess, is a pure statistics, Size is one element >>> size, but why USED + FREE != LIMIT (on whose where limit is non-zero) ? >> >> Possibly we should rename the "FREE" column to "CACHE" -- the free count is >> the number of items in the UMA cache. These may be hung in buckets off the >> per-CPU cache, or be spare buckets in the zone. Either way, the memory has >> to be reclaimed before it can be used for other purposes, and generally for >> complex objects, it can be allocated much more quickly than going back to >> VM for more memory. LIMIT is an administrative limit that may be >> configured on the zone, and is configured for some but not all zones. > > And every unlimited zone after growing on demand can cause > kmem_map/kmem_size panics, or some will low-memeory panics with message > about another map? Well, there are also limits not imposed using the UMA limit mechanism, so just because it appears unbounded in vmstat -z doesn't mean there's no limit. There's no UMA zone limit on processes, but there's a separately imposed maxproc limit--and as a result, filedesc, which is typically one per process, is also bounded to approximately maxproc. Likewise, many other data structures effectively scale with the number of processes, the size of physical memory, the size of the address space, maxusers, etc. There are relatively few things that actually have no limit associated with them one way or another, precisely because if there's no limit it can lead the kernel to become starved of resources. Where there isn't a limit, ideally privilege is required to allocate (i.e., malloc-backed swap requires root privilege to configure). Sometimes the limits are much more complex than a single global limit, such as resources controlled using resource limits, which can be per-process, per-uid, etc. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 19:23:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F8516A418 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:23:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtbates@patmedia.net) Received: from smtp106.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com (smtp106.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com [69.147.102.69]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D639213C44B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:23:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtbates@patmedia.net) Received: (qmail 40391 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2008 18:56:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?172.18.1.139?) (rtbates@209.137.140.2 with plain) by smtp106.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 18:56:59 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: qpTTLgIVM1nQMpkvJAMqXc729b07rnO7KUnkFGQf4nmn3opV Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Message-Id: From: Richard Bates Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:56:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:23:40 -0000 Sorry for the repost... I don't think the first one posted.. posted to freebsd.stable, freebsd-current, Freebsd-hardware I checked the hardware in the online documentation manual/hardware It only lists the bits and peices of the machine say the hard drive =20 controller and so forth. but doesn't give you a particular system to =20 look at as a working machine with FreeBSD 6.2 does anybody know if a Dell PowerEdge 1950 =95 Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processors 5400 series 3.16GHz =95 4GB Ram I am looking to attach 2 machines to a SAN to make a constantly up =20 system. Is there a Dell San and San Switch that will work with this =20 version of BSD? Thank you for your help From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 19:31:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B6816A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6373613C478 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2068F4711C; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:31:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:31:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Matthew Dillon In-Reply-To: <200801081810.m08IA3mY040575@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: <20080108192858.B26471@fledge.watson.org> References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> <86d4scr86d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801081810.m08IA3mY040575@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Mikhail Teterin , =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , current@freebsd.org, efinleywork@efinley.com Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:31:39 -0000 On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Matthew Dillon wrote: > :Matthew Dillon writes: > :> [snip] > : > :The arrogance you display in your response is simply staggering. I > :should have known better than to engage in any kind of conversation with > :you... > : > :DES > > The arrogance you display in your posting is simply staggering. I > should have known better then to reply to it. > > What the hell kind of answer did you expect, DES? I think this thread fell below a reasonable usefulness threshold several posts ago, and I suggest the participants resolve their further differences via private e-mail rather than on the public mailing lists. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 20:31:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B4316A419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com (zrtps0kn.nortel.com [47.140.192.55]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE5513C4D9 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m08KVXI14863; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:31:33 GMT Received: from ab-thinky.atrens.ca ([47.128.181.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:31:17 -0500 Message-ID: <4783DD5C.5020002@nortel.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:30:20 -0500 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071028) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert References: <200712301219.29839@aldan> <20080102141415.GA15414@keltia.freenix.fr> In-Reply-To: <20080102141415.GA15414@keltia.freenix.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2008 20:31:17.0935 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C0943F0:01C85235] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:31:45 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Elliot Finley: >> -L has been hanging systems ever since it existed. Don't use it. > > No, it has been hanging systems _temporarely_ during the creation of the > snapshot, afterwards, it works. If indeed, snapshot creation blocks, there > is a problem, maybe there is not enough space? I've only tried using -L once and this is exactly what happened to me. In a perfect world dump would be able to figure out if there's enough space to make the snapshot before attempting it. At the time I was just using it to migrate to a new larger hd on my new laptop and was single user, though I had all filesystems mounted rw. That last bit was probably just laziness on my part. Anyways I read the manpage, tried -L, and it ran out of space and hung my system. Seemed very ugly at the time. Seems to me in many situations when one is using dump/restore one expects (or hopes) that they'll be as robust as possible. I hope that's enough of a report for dump's maintainer to take a quick try at reproducing the problem. I don't have any free cycles and won't have until the Fall :( - --Andrew -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHg91c8It2CaCdeMwRAkKrAKCBWl6z3SfWPPlqUuvCk2skrLvfVwCfSUtp K3bFIvLc0q0A3ziJLJ0ycFQ= =vG6U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 20:47:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EF516A469 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:47:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: from 26.mail-out.ovh.net (26.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.27.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BAEBF13C455 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:47:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maciej@suszko.eu) Received: (qmail 16125 invoked by uid 503); 8 Jan 2008 20:47:32 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 08 Jan 2008 20:47:32 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail156.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 20:47:32 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 20:47:06 -0000 Received: from gateway.wakacje.pl (HELO arsenic) (maciej@suszko.eu@193.110.229.253) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2008 20:47:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:47:00 +0100 From: Maciej Suszko To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080108214700.a7284ccd.maciej@suszko.eu> In-Reply-To: <70f41ba20801080824y60f162b9w636e30b23e8f57ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <70f41ba20801071743o437b86ebx7956ad73250becb1@mail.gmail.com> <56088.195.50.100.20.1199787921.squirrel@www.superhero.nl> <70f41ba20801080708u4b05b37cta9315a0e0df5116f@mail.gmail.com> <20080108153816.GC45359@atarininja.org> <70f41ba20801080824y60f162b9w636e30b23e8f57ba@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Ovh-Remote: 193.110.229.253 (gateway.wakacje.pl) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Subject: Re: jail on ZFS - "Unable to mount devfs" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:47:10 -0000 snowcrash+freebsd wrote: > hi wesley, > > > I have a jail running in a ZFS environment. > > > > wxs@ack ~ % jls > > JID IP Address Hostname Path > > 3 192.168.1.100 > > asterisk /u/jails/asterisk wxs@ack ~ % mount | > > grep "data" data on /u (zfs, NFS exported, local, noatime) > > wxs@ack ~ % mount | grep devfs > > devfs on /dev (devfs, local) > > devfs on /u/jails/asterisk/dev (devfs, local) > > wxs@ack ~ % > > here's what i have > > jls > JID IP Address Hostname Path > 1 10.0.0.200 jTEST.internal.net /j/jTEST > > mount > z on / (zfs, local) > devfs on /dev (devfs, local) > /dev/mirror/gm0s1a on /bootdir (ufs, local, soft-updates) > z/data on /data (zfs, local) > z/home on /home (zfs, local) > z/j on /j (zfs, local) > z/tmp on /tmp (zfs, local) > z/usr on /usr (zfs, local) > z/var on /var (zfs, local) > /j/jMROOT on /j/jTEST (nullfs, local, read-only) > /j/s/jTEST on /j/jTEST/s (nullfs, local) > devfs on /j/jTEST/dev (devfs, local) > > which, i think?, says the same. > > argh. confused. following too many threads with partial solutions ... > > can you share your setup-a-jail-on-a-zfs'd-host steps? Hi. I just took ordinary steps to have a working jail on ZFS: - make buildworld - make installworld DESTDIR=/path/to/jail - make distribution DESTDIR=/path/to/jail - copy/edit some config files (mainly under /path/to/jail/etc) - start jail - jexec 1 /bin/sh from /etc/rc.conf (besides enabling jail, list of jails etc.): jail_name_procfs_enable="YES" jail_name_devfs_enable="YES" That's all. -- regards, Maciej Suszko. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 20:55:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4229616A41A; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:55:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@ifdnrg.com) Received: from ifdnrg10.ifdnrg.com (ns2.ifdnrg.com [193.200.98.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9A313C4CC; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:55:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@ifdnrg.com) Received: from [192.168.1.118] (87-194-184-71.bethere.co.uk [87.194.184.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by ifdnrg10.ifdnrg.com (8.14.2/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m08KNYfP057008; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:23:35 GMT (envelope-from paul@ifdnrg.com) Message-ID: <4783DBC6.3090300@ifdnrg.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:23:34 +0000 From: Paul Macdonald User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Bates References: In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/5443/Tue Jan 8 17:35:47 2008 on ifdnrg10.ifdnrg.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DYN_RDNS_AND_INLINE_IMAGE, HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_DYNAMIC autolearn=no version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on ifdnrg10.ifdnrg.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:55:15 -0000 Hi Richard, I run freeBSD 6.2 on a 1950 and the only i had issue i had was with the on board broadcom ethernet, my workaround is detailed here http://www.ifdnrg.com/freebsd_broadcom_dell_1950.htm hope that helps Paul. *web and video services* *Paul Macdonald* Director paul@ifdnrg.com www.ifdnrg.com *IFDNRG* *Please note new address!* 127 Rose St South Lane, Edinburgh, EH2 4BB +44.131.2257470 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 21:39:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F0F16A468 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:39:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dudu@dudu.ro) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39BD13C4D3 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:39:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dudu@dudu.ro) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so5441279fgg.35 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.157.6 with SMTP id f6mr38523954bue.1.1199826698321; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.1 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:11:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:11:38 +0200 From: "Vlad GALU" To: "Richard Bates" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:39:22 -0000 On 1/8/08, Richard Bates wrote: > Sorry for the repost... > I don't think the first one posted.. > > posted to freebsd.stable, freebsd-current, Freebsd-hardware > > I checked the hardware in the online documentation manual/hardware > > It only lists the bits and peices of the machine say the hard drive > controller and so forth. but doesn't give you a particular system to > look at as a working machine with FreeBSD 6.2 > > does anybody know if a Dell PowerEdge 1950 > =95 Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processors 5400 series 3.16GHz > =95 4GB Ram > > I am looking to attach 2 machines to a SAN to make a constantly up > system. Is there a Dell San and San Switch that will work with this > version of BSD? I'm using a newer version of the PE2950, which has the PERC 6/i controller. Older ones use the PERC 5/i, which is supported by 6.2. Dell machines are pretty well supported. > > Thank you for your help > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " > --=20 Mahnahmahnah! From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 22:14:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6B616A417 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:14:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.org [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843C013C442 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:14:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:65314 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JCMiU-000G5j-4I for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:14:38 +0000 Message-ID: <4783F5CB.1090508@conducive.net> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:14:35 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> <86d4scr86d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801081810.m08IA3mY040575@apollo.backplane.com> <20080108192858.B26471@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080108192858.B26471@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:14:40 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Matthew Dillon wrote: > >> :Matthew Dillon writes: >> :> [snip] >> : >> :The arrogance you display in your response is simply staggering. I >> :should have known better than to engage in any kind of conversation with >> :you... >> : >> :DES >> >> The arrogance you display in your posting is simply staggering. I >> should have known better then to reply to it. >> >> What the hell kind of answer did you expect, DES? > > I think this thread fell below a reasonable usefulness threshold several > posts ago, and I suggest the participants resolve their further > differences via private e-mail rather than on the public mailing lists. > > Robert N M Watson > Computer Laboratory > University of Cambridge Unfortunately, I'm afraid it is FreeBSD itself that '...fell below a reasonable usefulness threshold....'. Sometime around 5.X. Call 6.x a 'dead cat bounce', 7.X 'masturbatory' at best, and 8-CURRENT? 'hoping and praying..' Maybe. To wit (check the list archives. All of the lists): - Fatal scheduling and interrupt handling issues. - Fatal storage, I/O, and fs corruption problems with far too many controllers. Not just ZFS. - Fatal stack/network problems - even .. gimme a break! *lpt* issues? Far too many of them not on new silicon - but *on hardware that used to JFW*! Why so? To some extent *lack* of the very sort of strong opinions that Matt and Dag-Erling at least had the balls to express. And that at least one is turning into fs code. Good, bad, or sideways code remains to be seen. But putting his personal assets on the line to make the attempt - not just his keyboard. I don't know - and don't care - if Matt, or DES, or PHK, or PJD, or .. whomever... is or is not - seen to be difficult, unpleasant, or obstreperous. They've each worked hard to earn the right to their viewpoints. We can still learn from them all. Perhaps one *has to be* a bit rude to create a sound project in a volunteer environment. FreeBSD might have benefited from more 'sturm und drang' these past several years - not less. Sort the goals before coding - not after. Nobody has to die if they lose an argument over 'direction'. But we all suffer if the issues are not given a serious airing up-front. Patton's 'Good plan violently implemented right now beats a better plan delayed a week!' applies to many things. An operating system is not among them. FreeBSD has simply become 'too much nice', 'too much knee-jerk', and 'too little rigorous' since 4.X days to deliver its old quality. The once-legendary stability is long gone, and a return to that seems subordinate to getting *something* out the door with a higher release number. Wrong priority! The stability under load 'niche' was *all we really had*! 'Features', 'speed', 'faster than Linux' - performance in general - aren't worth a rat's ass if the box falls over unexpectedly and only one to three developers out of several hundred knows how to analyze the 'why' of - and others not at all. lpd broken? And we know it? And know how to fix it? And have not? Unfortunately, just the tip of a very large iceberg... JM2CW (and Hong Kong cents at that ...) But dissent is to be managed and learned from. Not swept under the carpet. Bill Hacker From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 22:20:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36B916A417 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:20:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mistry.7@osu.edu) Received: from mail.united-ware.com (am-productions.biz [69.61.164.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B5F13C447 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:20:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mistry.7@osu.edu) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (adsl-68-254-12-161.dsl.wotnoh.ameritech.net [68.254.12.161]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.united-ware.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m08LwhkM009133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:58:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mistry.7@osu.edu) From: Anish Mistry To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:58:19 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <15318.53211.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200711081221.24062.mistry.7@osu.edu> In-Reply-To: <200711081221.24062.mistry.7@osu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1985429.7EEy1dMjHf"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801081658.32945.mistry.7@osu.edu> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5443/Tue Jan 8 12:35:47 2008 on mail.united-ware.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Unstopable ata1: FAILURE - non aligned DMA transfer attempted loop X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:20:10 -0000 --nextPart1985429.7EEy1dMjHf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday 08 November 2007, Anish Mistry wrote: > On Thursday 08 November 2007, Trigve Siver wrote: > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: Anish Mistry > > > To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 4:46:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: Unstopable ata1: FAILURE - non aligned DMA > > > transfer attempted loop > > > > > > On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Anish Mistry wrote: > > > > When trying to access a scratched DVD I get the following > > > > messages that loop forever until I reboot the machine. The > > > > drive is unresponsive so that's the only way to remove the > > > > disc. Any ideas? > > > > > > > > http://am-productions.biz/debug/pciconf.txt > > > > > > > > Running a recent -CURRENT. I'm also getting this same issue > > > > on RELENG_7 on a different machine. > > > > > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: ata1: FAILURE - non aligned > > > > DMA transfer attempted > > > > Oct 31 12:01:29 littleguy kernel: acd0: setting up DMA failed > > > > > > Just an update. I played through everything on the DVD on a > > > set-top DVD player and it played through everything. There > > > were a couple hickups, but it played through them fine. Is > > > anyone else seeing this problem? It's pretty easy to > > > reproduce with k9copy. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > I have the same problem, but... I have 2 DVD drives on the same > > "cable". When I use the "slave" one, I get the same errors and > > cannot watch DVDs. But when I use the "master" one, I've got the > > messafe (cd0: setting up DMA failed...) only once and I can watch > > DVD. > > Both drives that I'm trying to use are Master. The one on my > desktop also has a slave drive connected. The one on my laptop > that also exhibits the same problem is master on it's own channel, > no slaves. This is still a problem on current and 7. It's not just bad DVDs I'm=20 also getting it on good DVDs too. =2D-=20 Anish Mistry --nextPart1985429.7EEy1dMjHf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHg/IIxqA5ziudZT0RArHrAJ4ouw+HyCRM72KjsndpOsJtQr0C5wCgu4Ix ycqbErizYRz1gXTzOegt6gA= =gnMu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1985429.7EEy1dMjHf-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 8 23:16:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9650F16A46E for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:16:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E6E13C447 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:16:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u52so17728pyb.10 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:16:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=9HxbNYKBd3TbtA3uW15oBiAUCr1mCrG8wMTTt40+sUM=; b=ZoFublT86tIFARlm0e3sda8xvJYBEKzwflN+QFXxedn7O4Y4DCA6zZ+UR8d0Ps77BQhcD9Y2nEDf+gw3usOQKnZOj1aCOjO11OoyBjbkZ7wCmjqKJSKr55pUoqKzrZmlcO3IUEuBtScFnrzZXAjD4bovzI0R9ABiDyoGtwY+fos= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=eWI1IwbFmGl6S/Y5W+9ecGOgQ7pWnehHeWvGHRA8IdWRpsZpdGs6+MrAAo1fVQ5BQpB02XJkiFu/RBKJQYTNBtBnd2/jSjQcSAQmOwVA5B97JZ6aG8o18froZRqWsT2lMFcs34Wvlb91avjXHkzd/VrqYJ8hjHDTm8bEyc7unaE= Received: by 10.140.193.16 with SMTP id q16mr757356rvf.173.1199834204124; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:16:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:16:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbcef730801081516g50775926ndb43b0a8a308dafc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:16:44 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 744b3fa1dc241427 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, pjd@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:16:45 -0000 T24gMDgvMDEvMjAwOCwgRGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXYgPGRlc0BkZXMubm8+IHdyb3RlOgoK PiBBY3R1YWxseSwgaXQgZmFpbHMgdG8gbWVudGlvbiB0aGUgbW9zdCBpbXBvcnRhbnQgYml0OiB2 ZnMuemZzLmFyY19tYXgsCj4gd2hpY2ggYWxsb3dzIHlvdSB0byByZXN0cmljdCB0aGUgYW1vdW50 IG9mIG1lbW9yeSB1c2VkIGJ5IFpGUyB0bwo+IHNvbWV0aGluZyBjb21mb3J0YWJseSBzbWFsbGVy IHRoYW4gdm0ua21lbV9zaXplLgoKUGF3ZWwsIGlzIGl0IHJlY29tbWVuZGVkPwoKSWYgaXQgaXMs IEknbGwgYWRkIGl0IHRvIHRoZSBwYWdlLgo= From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 00:22:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791C716A419; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net (vms173003pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F49613C43E; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.3.231] ([70.21.165.95]) by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JUC00AOROY0S651@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:20:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:20:46 -0500 From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-reply-to: <20080108170427.2a86e0af@duncan.reilly.home> To: Andrew Reilly Message-id: <1199838046.718.51.camel@RabbitsDen> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20080108101209.01800eb6@duncan.reilly.home> <1199763018.718.40.camel@RabbitsDen> <20080108170427.2a86e0af@duncan.reilly.home> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Jason Evans , Tim Kientzle , rgrav , Peter Schuller Subject: Re: ELF dynamic loader name [was: sbrk(2) broken] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:22:22 -0000 On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 17:04 +1100, Andrew Reilly wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:30:18 -0500 > "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" > wrote: > > > > [I'm doing a lot of my own new coding in PLT scheme at the > > > moment, and having a ball with it. (lang/drscheme in ports) > > > > I suspect you are not running contemporary 7.0 there: > > twinhead# uname -a > > FreeBSD twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Tue > > Jan 1 19:22:56 EST 2008 > > root@twinhead.rabbitslawn.verizon.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/TWINHEAD > > i386 > > twinhead# make install > > ===> drscheme-370 is marked as broken: Fails to install (signal 11). > > *** Error code 1 > > > > Stop in /usr/ports/lang/drscheme. > > Nope: > andrew@duncan:/usr/home/andrew $ mzscheme > Welcome to MzScheme v372 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2007 PLT Scheme > Inc. > > ^D > andrew@duncan:/usr/home/andrew $ uname -a > FreeBSD duncan.reilly.home 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE > #6: Sat Jan 5 17:53:17 EST 2008 > root@duncan:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DUNCAN amd64 > > :-) > > You'll find a patch with my name on it at: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=118808 > > That fix has been incorporated up-stream, so 372 now builds > cleanly for me from tarballs, but something is still broken on > jkoshy's 8-current system, so he hasn't updated the port yet. That will teach me to check PR database before speaking up. Thank you for both the patch and the pointer. > > > > Fast enough for what I'm doing, byte-code, static or JIT compiled, > > > and runs everywhere (including Windows and OSX).] > > > > > > What would be *really* cool would be the ability to have a JVM or > > > LLVM back-end in the kernel, as a first-class peer of the ELF > > > loader. Anyone know if anyone has tried such a thing on *BSD (or > > > even Linux, I guess)? > > > > If you have Linux distribution handy, you can look > > at /usr/src/linux/Documentation/binfmt_misc.txt. > > Or > http://www.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de/~rguenth/linux/binfmt_misc.html > Thanks for the pointer: that's pretty close to what I was > thinking of. There's also the PE loader work in NetBSD... > > > At least its Java > > incarnation has been around for a while. I have not seen widespread use > > of it, but then again, I have not been looking too hard. > > Yeah, most existing foreign-executable formats have lots of > extraneous environment cruft related to compatibility with > other operating systems, that doesn't really lend themselves to > this sort of application. Ah, but let's not blame operating systems: sunny:RabbitsDen>cat Hello.java class Hello { public static void main(String args[]) { System.out.println("Hello, world!"); } } sunny:RabbitsDen>javac Hello.java sunny:RabbitsDen>java -version java version "1.6.0_03-p3" Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_03-p3-root_17_nov_2007_12_13-b00) Java HotSpot(TM) Server VM (build 1.6.0_03-p3-root_17_nov_2007_12_13-b00, mixed mode) sunny:RabbitsDen>java Hello Hello, world! sunny:RabbitsDen>scp Hello.class eclipse: Hello.class 100% 417 0.4KB/s 00:00 sunny:RabbitsDen>ssh eclipse eclipse:DEV:sunny>java -version java version "1.5.0_04" Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.5.0_04-b05) Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.5.0_04-b05, mixed mode, sharing) eclipse:DEV:sunny>java Hello Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: Bad version number in .class file at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method) at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:620) at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:124) at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:260) at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$100(URLClassLoader.java:56) at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:195) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:188) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:306) at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:268) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:251) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClassInternal(ClassLoader.java:319) > [This is more -arch or -talk than -current, so I'll stop now.] Time to subscribe to arch@... ;) > > Cheers, > -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 00:55:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8275F16A41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:55:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A53F13C4E1 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:55:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B521A3C1A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:37:00 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: current@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:39:42 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Subject: A quick and dirty lpt patch.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:55:07 -0000 Fixing ppbus to act sanely with interrupts is going to require a bit of work and all of the solutions in my head involve non-trivial changes that I don't really want to rush into a release. Given that I've come up with a bit of a hack fix that is small and self-contained and can be used for 7.0 until a better solution is developed and tested. The basic problem is the ppbus' drivers insistence on tearing down the interrupt handler and then setting it back up again for each read or write to /dev/lpt and that ppbus doesn't multiplex interrupts to child devices itself, but lets the nexus driver do a full setup/teardown for each child device request. On 6.x this was annoying but not fatal because we never free'd an ithread once it existed. In 7.x I fleshed out that part of the interrupt handling so that it now frees ithreads when all the interrupt handlers go away, and in fact it will release an IRQ's given IDT vector when that happens as well. Even this would be fine except that the lpt(4) driver appears to have a bug where it doesn't always wait for an interrupt to come after a read/write, so the failure case people are seeing with trap 30's are that the lpt device does a read/write and tears down the interrupt handler which frees the ithread and the IDT vector and then the IRQ 7 finally fires but for an IDT vector that isn't hooked up to anything. The hack-fix I have is to change the ppbus driver to register a dummy interrupt handler for it's entire lifetime so that the IRQ for the lpt device never has 0 interrupt handlers and we don't keep freeing and reallocating ithreads and IDT vectors for the lpt device. This basically restores the behavior of 6.x where the extra interrupts were treated as stray interrupts. Longer term fixes for lpt involve a few things. Probably I will make child devices of ppbus take exclusive ownership of the bus for longer periods of time (and keep their interrupt handler registered for the same length of time) such as from open to close for ppi(4) and lpt(4). Hack patch is at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ppbus_intr.patch and inline below. I know it compiles, but I haven't runtested it. :) --- //depot/user/jhb/acpipci/dev/ppbus/ppbconf.c +++ /home/john/work/p4/acpipci/dev/ppbus/ppbconf.c @@ -36,6 +36,9 @@ #include #include #include +#include + +#include #include #include @@ -380,10 +383,39 @@ #endif /* !DONTPROBE_1284 */ +static void +ppbus_dummy_intr(void *arg) +{ +} + static int ppbus_attach(device_t dev) { + struct ppb_data *ppb = (struct ppb_data *)device_get_softc(dev); + uintptr_t irq; + int error, rid; + /* Attach a dummy interrupt handler to suck up any stray interrupts. */ + BUS_READ_IVAR(device_get_parent(dev), dev, PPC_IVAR_IRQ, &irq); + + if (irq > 0) { + rid = 0; + ppb->irq_res = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_IRQ, &rid, irq, + irq, 1, RF_SHAREABLE); + if (ppb->irq_res != NULL) { + error = bus_setup_intr(dev, ppb->irq_res, + INTR_TYPE_TTY | INTR_MPSAFE, NULL, ppbus_dummy_intr, + ppb, &ppb->intr_cookie); + if (error) { + device_printf(dev, + "failed to setup interrupt handler\n"); + bus_release_resource(dev, SYS_RES_IRQ, 0, + ppb->irq_res); + return (error); + } + } + } + /* Locate our children */ bus_generic_probe(dev); @@ -401,6 +433,7 @@ static int ppbus_detach(device_t dev) { + struct ppb_data *ppb = (struct ppb_data *)device_get_softc(dev); device_t *children; int nchildren, i; @@ -412,6 +445,10 @@ free(children, M_TEMP); } + if (ppb->irq_res != NULL) { + bus_teardown_intr(dev, ppb->irq_res, ppb->intr_cookie); + bus_release_resource(dev, SYS_RES_IRQ, 0, ppb->irq_res); + } return (0); } --- //depot/user/jhb/acpipci/dev/ppbus/ppbconf.h +++ /home/john/work/p4/acpipci/dev/ppbus/ppbconf.h @@ -248,6 +248,9 @@ * NIBBLE, PS2, EPP or ECP */ void *ppb_owner; /* device which owns the bus */ + + struct resource *irq_res; + void *intr_cookie; }; #ifdef _KERNEL -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 01:07:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C4116A418 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 01:07:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: from smtp806.mail.ird.yahoo.com (smtp806.mail.ird.yahoo.com [217.146.188.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1D6A13C457 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 01:07:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: (qmail 62630 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2008 00:40:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.2?) (thomasjudge@btinternet.com@86.140.145.126 with plain) by smtp806.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2008 00:40:36 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 0DRt3wwVM1m0phNhNCJpEEE4gQP_FhACYgxMs7u3UgeVr75RMXBq2lwpFTTE26p90xXSYSP3BbTKGW08D4AjjQhDadT2_BAZmw-- Message-ID: <47840ACD.8060208@tomjudge.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:44:13 +0000 From: Tom Judge User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Bates References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:07:19 -0000 Richard Bates wrote: > Sorry for the repost... > I don't think the first one posted.. > > posted to freebsd.stable, freebsd-current, Freebsd-hardware > > I checked the hardware in the online documentation manual/hardware > > It only lists the bits and peices of the machine say the hard drive > controller and so forth. but doesn't give you a particular system to > look at as a working machine with FreeBSD 6.2 > > does anybody know if a Dell PowerEdge 1950 > • Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processors 5400 series 3.16GHz > • 4GB Ram > We have ~20 PE [12]950 systems here all running 6/2 with a back ported bce driver from RELENG_6. Tom > I am looking to attach 2 machines to a SAN to make a constantly up > system. Is there a Dell San and San Switch that will work with this > version of BSD? > > Thank you for your help > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 01:56:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9CB16A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 01:56:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from n-butcher=freebsd-current=freebsd.org=sbibybnr@fusiongol.com) Received: from smtp02.dentaku.gol.com (smtp02.dentaku.gol.com [203.216.5.72]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9388513C457 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 01:56:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from n-butcher=freebsd-current=freebsd.org=sbibybnr@fusiongol.com) Received: from pat.gol.co.jp ([203.216.1.191] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp02.dentaku.gol.com with esmtpa (Dentaku) id 1JCQAw-0005W2-61; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:56:14 +0900 Message-ID: <478429BE.7040702@fusiongol.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:56:14 +0900 From: Nathan Butcher User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <4782D82D.1010207@fusiongol.com> <86myrgnovf.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86myrgnovf.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Abuse-Complaints: abuse@gol.com Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Remaining issues before RELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:56:16 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Nathan Butcher writes: >> * if_ral - I've noticed instability in the driver since mid last year. I >> have a USB wireless dongle that uses the driver, and I have noticed just >> like all the other users who have mentioned it - that it occasionally >> "cuts out". > > Umm, aren't you confusing ral(4) with ural(4)? The former is only used > for PCI (and possibly CardBus) adapters while the latter is only used > for USB adapters. They are *very* different beasts. > > DES I'm probably confusing them then. Having said that, my adapter appears as ural0, and seems to be having the same kind of issues that others have been reporting with the PCI ral driver. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 02:02:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9A516A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:02:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E9313C458 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:02:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3603B20B1; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:02:48 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19685207E; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:02:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DCB0E844AF; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:02:47 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: =?utf-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZ?= Bill Hacker References: <200801012116.m01LGQhN012860@bonkers.video-collage.com> <200801032334.m03NY7Zd019292@apollo.backplane.com> <863at97ntr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801072211.m07MBcb3032223@apollo.backplane.com> <86d4scr86d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801081810.m08IA3mY040575@apollo.backplane.com> <20080108192858.B26471@fledge.watson.org> <4783F5CB.1090508@conducive.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:02:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4783F5CB.1090508@conducive.net> (=?utf-8?B?Iumfk+WutuaomQ==?= Bill Hacker"'s message of "Tue\, 08 Jan 2008 22\:14\:35 +0000") Message-ID: <8663y3oiwo.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a new way to hang 7.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:02:56 -0000 =E9=9F=93=E5=AE=B6=E6=A8=99 Bill Hacker writes: > To some extent *lack* of the very sort of strong opinions that Matt > and Dag-Erling at least had the balls to express. Please do not use my name in support of your nutjob rants. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 02:44:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E78016A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:44:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C5E13C467 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:44:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52812089; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:44:22 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E83207E; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:44:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 81BEB844B6; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:44:22 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Nathan Butcher References: <4782D82D.1010207@fusiongol.com> <86myrgnovf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <478429BE.7040702@fusiongol.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:44:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <478429BE.7040702@fusiongol.com> (Nathan Butcher's message of "Wed\, 09 Jan 2008 10\:56\:14 +0900") Message-ID: <861w8rogzd.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Remaining issues before RELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:44:31 -0000 Nathan Butcher writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Umm, aren't you confusing ral(4) with ural(4)? The former is only used > > for PCI (and possibly CardBus) adapters while the latter is only used > > for USB adapters. They are *very* different beasts. > I'm probably confusing them then. Having said that, my adapter appears > as ural0, and seems to be having the same kind of issues that others > have been reporting with the PCI ral driver. They are completely separate drivers with (AFAIK) no code in common. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 02:48:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E93C16A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:48:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA6F913C45A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:48:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 89511 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2008 02:48:02 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=gJ3W5bNg2H8CXKYGK8iNj3Kke+PEoq0o1mTfLMi1T8IjdJWovbM106PIeP1pRN1r3ONeQhhq31w6t3WdZ86cDbH1oyTBXvO9XYJXpllfUOBrg0ZGGozgxZ4VbQbTPy3EGC2WhIo1j2fgpTIOYLNsUyBHGquRBiyS/JTY1/HqgPQ=; X-YMail-OSG: rWF.DooVM1kYbE_9oAu1Q.Ju2HmS32IBS25n1VTJPXXftO6BZ_ev4GzYOQkQqfvIIgUYI0dU.7vcYEWCX.o5vsQ5CpgntOBFTM7LEU_is7dVCTzggJHF.6F4DARNztP779osEKAUf35ceiM- Received: from [165.21.155.69] by web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:48:02 PST Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:48:02 -0800 (PST) From: Unga To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <759176.88786.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Subject: ERROR! Can't stop Rx DMA X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:48:04 -0000 I have upgraded from 7.0-BETA4 to 7.0-PRERELEASE by compiling from source. Now I'm getting network access freeze quite often and when issue a reboot, it shows following message, some times hangs there, sometimes continue: tx0: ERROR! Can't stop Rx DMA Regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 05:46:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA7D16A419; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:46:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6A813C45A; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:45:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) id m095jvVZ021560; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:45:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:45:57 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20080109054557.GB55800@dan.emsphone.com> References: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> <9bbcef730801081516g50775926ndb43b0a8a308dafc@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730801081516g50775926ndb43b0a8a308dafc@mail.gmail.com> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, pjd@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 05:46:00 -0000 In the last episode (Jan 09), Ivan Voras said: > On 08/01/2008, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Actually, it fails to mention the most important bit: > > vfs.zfs.arc_max, which allows you to restrict the amount of memory > > used by ZFS to something comfortably smaller than vm.kmem_size. > > Pawel, is it recommended? > > If it is, I'll add it to the page. With the vm_kern.c.2.patch, it doesn't seem to be an issue, at least for me. "c" always stays far away from "c_max": kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.p: 218885440 kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.c: 342346436 kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.c_min: 20971520 kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.c_max: 503316480 kstat.zfs.misc.arcstats.size: 342342144 vm.kmem_size: 671088640 hw.physmem: 1064771584 vm.kmem_map_panics_avoided: 171 The last sysctl was added by me to track how often the patch saved my system from a panic :) I suppose lowering arc_max would reduce the number of times the routine was called, though. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 06:34:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4716516A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8338213C448 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:34:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m096YSiD019467; Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:34:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-Id: From: Scott Long To: Michael Jung In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:34:28 -0700 References: <4764D847.5040701@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:34:28 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 7.0-BETA4 - witness_warn on boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:34:34 -0000 Thanks for the reminder, I'll take care of it. Scott On Jan 7, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Michael Jung wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Long [mailto:scottl@samsco.org] > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:48 AM > To: Michael Jung > Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: 7.0-BETA4 - witness_warn on boot > > This simple patch should fix it. This code path is pretty rare, > though, > I'm frankly shocked that you're running into it. > > --- cam_xpt.c 20 Oct 2007 23:23:12 -0000 1.191 > +++ cam_xpt.c 16 Dec 2007 07:46:22 -0000 > @@ -3862,6 +3862,7 @@ > &work_ccb->ccb_h, > xpt_links.stqe); > > + mtx_unlock(&xsoftc.xpt_lock); > continue; > } else { > /* > > Scott > > > Michael Jung wrote: >> I was running 7.0-BETA4 and had problems with SEG_FAULT 12 in g_up so >> I rebuilt a stock GENERIC kernel with these additional options: >> >> >> >> options KDB >> >> option DDB >> >> options INVARIANTS >> >> options INVARIANT_SUPPORT >> >> options WITNESS >> >> options DEBUG_LOCKS >> >> options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS >> >> options DIAGNOSTIC >> >> >> >> Here is the build date: >> >> >> >> FreeBSD charon.confluentasp.com 7.0-BETA4 FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #6: Tue >> Dec >> 11 09:05:50 EST 2007 >> mikej@charon.confluentasp.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/CHARON i386 >> >> (I cvsup'd source on this day just prior to kernel build - >> tag=RELENG_7) >> >> >> >> Now when my SCSI array is plugged into the AHA-2944 controller the >> kernel panics on boot. If the array is not plugged >> >> into the controller the system boots and runs fine. >> >> >> >> I've read the handbook and tried to follow what posts I read as to >> what would be of use in trouble shooting this. >> >> Please don't shoot the messenger. I'll be glad to supply and >> additional information - this box is not in production >> >> so I'm willing to try anything. >> >> >> >> Just to note, the controller and array had been in production under >> 6.2-RELEASE and prior versions and has been running >> >> for years without any problems. >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> --mikej >> >> >> >> KDB: debugger backends: ddb >> >> KDB: current backend: ddb >> >> Copyright (c) 1992-2007 The FreeBSD Project. >> >> Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, >> 1994 >> >> The Regents of the University of California. All rights >> reserved. >> >> FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. >> >> FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4 #6: Tue Dec 11 09:05:50 EST 2007 >> >> mikej@charon.confluentasp.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/CHARON >> >> WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. >> >> WARNING: DIAGNOSTIC option enabled, expect reduced performance. >> >> Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 >> >> CPU: Mobile AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3000+ (1799.81-MHz 686-class >> CPU) >> >> Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x20fc2 Stepping = 2 >> >> >> Features >> =0x78bfbff> E, MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2> >> >> Features2=0x1 >> >> AMD Features=0xc2500800 >> >> AMD Features2=0x1 >> >> real memory = 1005453312 (958 MB) >> >> avail memory = 969691136 (924 MB) >> >> ACPI APIC Table: >> >> WITNESS: spin lock intrcnt not in order list >> >> ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard >> >> kbd1 at kbdmux0 >> >> ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, >> RF5413) >> >> acpi0: on motherboard >> >> acpi0: [ITHREAD] >> >> acpi0: Power Button (fixed) >> >> acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed >> >> acpi0: reservation of 100000, 3bde0000 (3) failed >> >> Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000 >> >> acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x4008-0x400b on >> acpi0 >> >> cpu0: on acpi0 >> >> powernow0: on cpu0 >> >> acpi_button0: on acpi0 >> >> acpi_button1: on acpi0 >> >> pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 >> >> pci0: on pcib0 >> >> agp0: on hostb0 >> >> pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 >> >> pci1: on pcib1 >> >> vgapci0: mem >> 0xf0000000-0xf3ffffff,0xf4000000-0xf4ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on >> pci1 >> >> pcib2: at device 8.0 on pci0 >> >> pci2: on pcib2 >> >> ahc0: port 0xc000-0xc0ff mem >> 0xf6013000-0xf6013fff irq 16 at device 4.0 on pci2 >> >> ahc0: [ITHREAD] >> >> aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs >> >> ahc1: port 0xc400-0xc4ff mem >> 0xf6010000-0xf6010fff irq 17 at device 5.0 on pci2 >> >> ahc1: [ITHREAD] >> >> aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs >> >> ahc2: port 0xc800-0xc8ff mem >> 0xf6011000-0xf6011fff irq 18 at device 6.0 on pci2 >> >> ahc2: [ITHREAD] >> >> aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs >> >> ahc3: port 0xcc00-0xccff mem >> 0xf6012000-0xf6012fff irq 19 at device 7.0 on pci2 >> >> ahc3: [ITHREAD] >> >> aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs >> >> atapci0: port >> 0xe100 >> -0xe107,0xe700-0xe703,0xe800-0xe807,0xe900-0xe903,0xe000-0xe00f, >> 0x d000-0xd0ff irq 20 at device 15.0 on pci0 >> >> atapci0: [ITHREAD] >> >> ata2: on atapci0 >> >> ata2: [ITHREAD] >> >> ata3: on atapci0 >> >> ata3: [ITHREAD] >> >> atapci1: port >> 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xe200-0xe20f at device 15.1 on >> pci0 >> >> ata0: on atapci1 >> >> ata0: [ITHREAD] >> >> ata1: on atapci1 >> >> ata1: [ITHREAD] >> >> uhci0: port 0xe300-0xe31f irq 21 at >> device > >> 16.0 on pci0 >> >> uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> uhci0: [ITHREAD] >> >> usb0: on uhci0 >> >> usb0: USB revision 1.0 >> >> uhub0: on usb0 >> >> uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered >> >> uhci1: port 0xe400-0xe41f irq 21 at >> device >> 16.1 on pci0 >> >> uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> uhci1: [ITHREAD] >> >> usb1: on uhci1 >> >> usb1: USB revision 1.0 >> >> uhub1: on usb1 >> >> uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered >> >> uhci2: port 0xe500-0xe51f irq 21 at >> device >> 16.2 on pci0 >> >> uhci2: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> uhci2: [ITHREAD] >> >> usb2: on uhci2 >> >> usb2: USB revision 1.0 >> >> uhub2: on usb2 >> >> uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered >> >> uhci3: port 0xe600-0xe61f irq 21 at >> device >> 16.3 on pci0 >> >> uhci3: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> uhci3: [ITHREAD] >> >> usb3: on uhci3 >> >> usb3: USB revision 1.0 >> >> uhub3: on usb3 >> >> uhub3: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered >> >> ehci0: mem 0xf6100000-0xf61000ff irq >> 21 at device 16.4 on pci0 >> >> ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> ehci0: [ITHREAD] >> >> usb4: EHCI version 1.0 >> >> usb4: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2 usb3 >> >> usb4: on ehci0 >> >> usb4: USB revision 2.0 >> >> uhub4: on usb4 >> >> uhub4: 8 ports with 8 removable, self powered >> >> isab0: at device 17.0 on pci0 >> >> isa0: on isab0 >> >> pci0: at device 17.5 (no driver attached) >> >> vr0: port 0xdc00-0xdcff mem >> 0xf6101000-0xf61010ff irq 23 at device 18.0 on pci0 >> >> vr0: Quirks: 0x0 >> >> miibus0: on vr0 >> >> rlphy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 >> >> rlphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto >> >> vr0: using obsoleted if_watchdog interface >> >> vr0: Ethernet address: 00:e0:4d:0a:1b:e6 >> >> vr0: [ITHREAD] >> >> acpi_tz0: on acpi0 >> >> fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on >> acpi0 >> >> fdc0: [FILTER] >> >> fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 >> >> sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 >> >> sio0: port may not be enabled >> >> sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 >> >> sio0: port may not be enabled >> >> sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 >> on acpi0 >> >> sio0: type 16550A, console >> >> sio0: [FILTER] >> >> atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 >> >> atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 >> >> kbd0 at atkbd0 >> >> atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> atkbd0: [ITHREAD] >> >> psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 >> >> psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> psm0: [ITHREAD] >> >> psm0: model IntelliMouse, device ID 3 >> >> pmtimer0 on isa0 >> >> orm0: at iomem 0xcc000-0xcc7ff pnpid ORM0000 on isa0 >> >> ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0 >> >> ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode >> >> ppbus0: on ppc0 >> >> lpt0: on ppbus0 >> >> lpt0: Interrupt-driven port >> >> ppi0: on ppbus0 >> >> plip0: on ppbus0 >> >> ppc0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> >> ppc0: [ITHREAD] >> >> sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 >> >> sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> >> >> sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 >> >> sio1: port may not be enabled >> >> vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on >> isa0 >> >> Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1799808459 Hz quality 800 >> >> Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec >> >> Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle >> >> ad4: 381554MB at ata2-master SATA150 >> >> suspending ithread with the following locks held: >> >> exclusive sleep mutex XPT lock r = 0 (0xc0b883a4) locked @ >> /usr/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:3852 >> >> panic: witness_warn >> >> cpuid = 0 >> >> KDB: enter: panic >> >> [thread pid 18 tid 100016 ] >> >> Stopped at kdb_enter+0x32: leave >> >> db> ps >> >> pid ppid pgrp uid state wmesg wchan cmd >> >> 53 0 0 0 SL waiting_ 0xc0c084cc [sctp_iterator] >> >> 52 0 0 0 WL [irq7: ppc0] >> >> 51 0 0 0 WL [irq12: psm0] >> >> 50 0 0 0 WL [irq1: atkbd0] >> >> 49 0 0 0 WL [swi0: sio] >> >> 48 0 0 0 SL - 0xc401f23c [fdc0] >> >> 47 0 0 0 SL cooling 0xc3fedad4 [acpi_cooling0] >> >> 46 0 0 0 SL tzpoll 0xc0d85d40 [acpi_thermal] >> >> 45 0 0 0 WL [irq23: vr0] >> >> 44 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fe4210 [usb4] >> >> 43 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3ffb210 [usb3] >> >> 42 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3ff5210 [usb2] >> >> 41 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fee210 [usb1] >> >> 40 0 0 0 SL usbtsk 0xc0bb7174 [usbtask-dr] >> >> 39 0 0 0 SL usbtsk 0xc0bb7160 [usbtask-hc] >> >> 38 0 0 0 SL usbevt 0xc3fc8210 [usb0] >> >> 37 0 0 0 WL [irq21: uhci0 >> uhci*] >> >> 36 0 0 0 WL [irq15: ata1] >> >> 35 0 0 0 WL [irq14: ata0] >> >> --More-- >> >> >> >> 34 0 0 0 WL [irq20: atapci0] >> >> 33 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1e00 [aic_recovery3] >> >> 32 0 0 0 RL [irq19: ahc3] >> >> 31 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1e00 [aic_recovery3] >> >> 30 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1400 [aic_recovery2] >> >> 29 0 0 0 RL [irq18: ahc2] >> >> 28 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef1400 [aic_recovery2] >> >> 27 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0a00 [aic_recovery1] >> >> 26 0 0 0 RL [irq17: ahc1] >> >> 25 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0a00 [aic_recovery1] >> >> 24 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0c00 [aic_recovery0] >> >> 23 0 0 0 WL [irq16: ahc0] >> >> 22 0 0 0 SL idle 0xc3ef0c00 [aic_recovery0] >> >> 21 0 0 0 WL [irq9: acpi0] >> >> 20 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9580 [thread taskq] >> >> 19 0 0 0 WL [swi5: +] >> >> 18 0 0 0 RL CPU 0 [swi2: cambio] >> >> 9 0 0 0 SL ccb_scan 0xc0b88374 [xpt_thrd] >> >> 8 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_2] >> >> 7 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_1] >> >> --More-- >> >> >> >> 6 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9900 [acpi_task_0] >> >> 5 0 0 0 SL - 0xc3ed9980 [kqueue taskq] >> >> 17 0 0 0 WL [swi6: task > queue] >> >> 16 0 0 0 WL [swi6: Giant > taskq] >> >> 15 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb94d4 [yarrow] >> >> 4 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb754c [g_down] >> >> 3 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb7548 [g_up] >> >> 2 0 0 0 SL - 0xc0bb7540 [g_event] >> >> 14 0 0 0 WL [swi3: vm] >> >> 13 0 0 0 RL [swi4: clock sio] >> >> 12 0 0 0 WL [swi1: net] >> >> 11 0 0 0 RL [idle: cpu0] >> >> 1 0 0 0 ?L [swapper] >> >> 10 0 0 0 SL audit_wo 0xc0c11ad4 [audit] >> >> 0 0 0 0 SLs conifhk 0xc0b599ec [swapper] >> >> db> show reg >> >> cs 0x20 >> >> ds 0x28 >> >> es 0x28 >> >> fs 0x8 >> >> ss 0x28 >> >> eax 0x12 >> >> ecx 0xc1434bde >> >> edx 0 >> >> ebx 0x100 >> >> esp 0xe175cc5c >> >> ebp 0xe175cc64 >> >> esi 0x1 >> >> edi 0xc3dea210 >> >> eip 0xc0777ca2 kdb_enter+0x32 >> >> efl 0x80282 >> >> kdb_enter+0x32: leave >> >> db> show locks >> >> exclusive sleep mutex XPT lock r = 0 (0xc0b883a4) locked @ >> /usr/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:3852 >> >> db> show lockedvnods >> >> Locked vnodes >> >> db> bt >> >> Tracing pid 18 tid 100016 td 0xc3dea210 >> >> kdb_enter(c0aa2af2,0,c0aa7718,e175cc9c,0,...) at kdb_enter+0x32 >> >> panic(c0aa7718,e175ccd8,0,0,0,...) at panic+0x124 >> >> witness_warn(2,0,c0a9f7d0,471,c3ed97e4,...) at witness_warn+0x19c >> >> ithread_loop(c3ed80d0,e175cd38,c0a9f445,2ea,c3ee42ac,...) at >> ithread_loop+0x2ca >> >> fork_exit(c0735670,c3ed80d0,e175cd38) at fork_exit+0xb8 >> >> fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8 >> >> --- trap 0, eip = 0, esp = 0xe175cd70, ebp = 0 --- >> >> db> >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This message is intended only for the use of >> the > >> individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain >> information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from >> disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not >> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any >> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is >> strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, >> please notify us by telephone at (502) 212-4001 or notify us at PAI , >> Dept. 99, 11857 Commonwealth Drive, Louisville, KY 40299. Thank >> you. >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Scott, > > Any chance on getting this committed? It's been working great but > requires me to > patch after every cvsup. > > Thanks. > > --mikej > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This message is intended only for the use > of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain > information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from > disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is > not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication > is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission > in error, please notify us by telephone at (502) 212-4001 or > notify us at PAI , Dept. 99, 11857 Commonwealth Drive, > Louisville, KY 40299. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 08:38:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEF816A419; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:38:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from smtp6.yandex.ru (smtp6.yandex.ru [213.180.200.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14DD13C44B; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:38:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from ns.kirov.so-cdu.ru ([77.72.136.145]:25314 "EHLO [127.0.0.1]" smtp-auth: "bu7cher" TLS-CIPHER: "DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA keybits 256/256 version TLSv1/SSLv3" TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by mail.yandex.ru with ESMTP id S5472318AbYAIIiR (ORCPT + 2 others); Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:38:17 +0300 X-Yandex-Spam: 1 X-Yandex-Front: smtp6 X-Yandex-TimeMark: 1199867897 X-MsgDayCount: 5 X-Comment: RFC 2476 MSA function at smtp6.yandex.ru logged sender identity as: bu7cher Message-ID: <478487F2.9000907@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:38:10 +0300 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5 (FreeBSD/20051231) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wildes Miranda References: <474808.60103.qm@web33608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <474808.60103.qm@web33608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030003030603090103020403" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Xin LI , =?KOI8-R?Q?S=3Fren_Schmidt?= Subject: Re: ATI SB600/700/800 tester wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:38:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030003030603090103020403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wildes Miranda wrote: >> There was a lot of fixes and changes. >> And now it mostly doesn't needed. Do you have some >> troubles? > > Yes, i think. I haven't the option to set AHCI on the > BIOS as you suggested, and my trouble is that sata > disk just operate on UDMA33 mode. > i wish to use this box for java development, with many > disk access on compilation process and tomcat > environment. I think that this box will be more fast > with max mode allowed by disk controller. Hi, please, try attached patch (not tested). -- WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov --------------030003030603090103020403 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ati.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ati.diff" Index: src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c =================================================================== RCS file: /ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c,v retrieving revision 1.202.2.5 diff -u -b -r1.202.2.5 ata-chipset.c --- src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c 9 Dec 2007 19:26:56 -0000 1.202.2.5 +++ src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c 9 Jan 2008 08:34:51 -0000 @@ -1346,7 +1346,9 @@ { ATA_ATI_IXP400_S1, 0x00, SIIMEMIO, 0, ATA_SA150, "IXP400" }, { ATA_ATI_IXP400_S2, 0x00, SIIMEMIO, 0, ATA_SA150, "IXP400" }, { ATA_ATI_IXP600, 0x00, 0, 0, ATA_UDMA6, "IXP600" }, + { ATA_ATI_IXP600_S1, 0x00, 0, 0, ATA_SA300, "IXP600" }, { ATA_ATI_IXP700, 0x00, 0, 0, ATA_UDMA6, "IXP700" }, + { ATA_ATI_IXP700_S1, 0x00, 0, 0, ATA_SA300, "IXP700" }, { 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0}}; if (!(ctlr->chip = ata_match_chip(dev, ids))) @@ -1370,6 +1372,11 @@ if (ata_setup_interrupt(dev)) return ENXIO; + /* try to use AHCI */ + if (ctlr->chip->max_dma > ATA_SA150 && + ata_ahci_chipinit(dev) != ENXIO) + return 0; + /* IXP600 & IXP700 only have 1 PATA channel */ if ((ctlr->chip->chipid == ATA_ATI_IXP600) || (ctlr->chip->chipid == ATA_ATI_IXP700)) Index: src/sys/dev/ata/ata-pci.h =================================================================== RCS file: /ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-pci.h,v retrieving revision 1.81.2.1 diff -u -b -r1.81.2.1 ata-pci.h --- src/sys/dev/ata/ata-pci.h 21 Nov 2007 21:15:00 -0000 1.81.2.1 +++ src/sys/dev/ata/ata-pci.h 9 Jan 2008 08:34:51 -0000 @@ -104,7 +104,9 @@ #define ATA_ATI_IXP400_S1 0x43791002 #define ATA_ATI_IXP400_S2 0x437a1002 #define ATA_ATI_IXP600 0x438c1002 +#define ATA_ATI_IXP600_S1 0x43801002 #define ATA_ATI_IXP700 0x439c1002 +#define ATA_ATI_IXP700_S1 0x43901002 #define ATA_CENATEK_ID 0x16ca #define ATA_CENATEK_ROCKET 0x000116ca --------------030003030603090103020403-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 10:05:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BF316A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:05:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rainer@ultra-secure.de) Received: from bsd.ultra-secure.de (bsd.ultra-secure.de [62.146.20.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2A413C45D for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rainer@ultra-secure.de) Received: (qmail 11904 invoked by uid 89); 9 Jan 2008 10:05:55 -0000 Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 11888, pid: 11890, t: 4.8169s scanners: attach: 1.1.0 clamav: 0.88.7/m:44/d:4673 spam: 3.1.7 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on bsd.ultra-secure.de X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from unknown (HELO ?212.71.117.70?) (rainer@ultra-secure.de@212.71.117.70) by bsd.ultra-secure.de with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 9 Jan 2008 10:05:50 -0000 Message-ID: <47849C7D.5090209@ultra-secure.de> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:05:49 +0100 From: Rainer Duffner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.12) Gecko/20060911 SUSE/1.5.0.12-3.4 Thunderbird/1.5.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darran , FreeBSD Current References: <20080102131235.90487gl2eirnkw00@intranet.encontacto.net> <4783D48F.70903@errno.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: Asus Eee PC X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:05:57 -0000 Darran wrote: > Hello All, > > Does anyone know if FreeBSD will run on the Asus Eee PC ? > > http://eeepc.asus.com/global/product.htm > > Cheers, > > Darran > > See the FreeBSD current list archives. Somebody posted info about this a couple of days ago. cheers, Rainer From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 11:59:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895FA16A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (smtp-out-50.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8A613C4F4 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from Postfix filter 42a77884ce2a0a03efc6bb50a6dcdb20 (smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 43A4E271A56 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:27:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from webmail.deejc.net (mail213-171-216-230.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.230]) by smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id DFCF52719A9; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:27:36 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: livemail.co.uk Webmail Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47849C7D.5090209@ultra-secure.de> References: <20080102131235.90487gl2eirnkw00@intranet.encontacto.net> <4783D48F.70903@errno.com> <47849C7D.5090209@ultra-secure.de> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:27:36 +0000 From: "Darran" To: Rainer Duffner , "Darran" , "FreeBSD Current" X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: Subject: Re: Asus Eee PC X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:59:11 -0000 Rainer Duffner wrote: Darran wrote: > Hello All, > > Does anyone know if FreeBSD will run on the Asus Eee PC ? > > http://eeepc.asus.com/global/product.htm > > Cheers, > > Darran > > See the FreeBSD current list archives. Somebody posted info about this a couple of days ago. cheers, Rainer _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Got it Thanks, Darran http://www.deejc.net From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 12:35:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551B116A46C for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:35:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE8E13C45D for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5901.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.89.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m09CZ0wv083775; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:35:01 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m09Ca9Hb049149; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:36:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost.js.berklix.net [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m09Ca4H6042679; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:36:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801091236.m09Ca4H6042679@fire.js.berklix.net> To: John Baldwin In-reply-to: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> References: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> Comments: In-reply-to John Baldwin message dated "Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:39:42 -0500." Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:36:04 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A quick and dirty lpt patch.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:35:03 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > Fixing ppbus to act sanely with interrupts is going to require a bit of work ... ELided for space. > Hack patch is at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ppbus_intr.patch and > inline below. I know it compiles, but I haven't runtested it. :) Hi John cc current, PLIP (Parallel IP) has been dead for years, last good on 4.11 Any chance your current or future patches might fix that ? If so, I have machine(s) here running 7-Stable I can test against (& cables proven good on 4.11, & still 2 x 4.11 hosts where PLIP works). (Yes PLIP is slow, but when pcmcia ethernet wont work on some laptops it's great to have, one of my older laptops is now just SLIP-115200) -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 12:37:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500CF16A420 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:37:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D16C13C45A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:37:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E75717105 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m09CbE5E083359 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:37:14 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:37:14 +0000 Message-ID: <83358.1199882234@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Subject: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:37:16 -0000 I added a rudimentary IEEE488 bus (GP-IB/HP-IB if you like) support in FreeBSD a couple of years ago. In the meantime, the price of USB-IEEE488 gadgets has fallen drastically, and I have switched to using such a gadget from http://store.prologix.biz. The prospect of the IEEE488 support ever being completed looks incredibly dim at this point in time. If nobody is using the code, I'd like to remove it before the 8.0 release. Poul-Henning PS: If you have no idea what I'm talking about here you can just delete this email, it will not affect you. Trust me on this. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 13:26:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BB516A420 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:26:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AD413C47E for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id m09DOOhw016875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id m09DNtHZ091989; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:23:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18308.51970.859622.363321@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:23:55 -0500 (EST) To: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= In-Reply-To: <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:26:05 -0000 =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= writes: > > OTOH that's all GPFS is. > > Far more features than that - 'robust', 'fault tolerant', 'Disaster Recovery' > ... all the usual buzzwords. > > And nothing prevents using 'cluster' tools on a single box. Not storage-wise anyway. Having had the misfortune of being involved in a cluster which used GPFS, I can attest that GPFS is anything but "robust" and "fault tolerant" in my experience. Granted this was a few years ago, and things may have improved, but that one horrible experience was sufficient to make me avoid GPFS for life. Drew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 14:45:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B407916A46C for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448B913C4E7 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so298201fgg.35 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:45:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; bh=7FxIcbOi6PYFptfW2P94W8QiCIjb3Hl8qLrzkzc+p3s=; b=jzEKDCtCW8eqFgh7BhZLmL3LyNkhXntYdBw+ChAAI+6tFvCaCfAfkdPUiQ9AgYD2KHzEo8xMuQMlOQ2euUhb/7S1Y/BrQTCWA9B8TMnLDPYpOFbL4SJBCrtoxg96BfzlsBHU2UfUxHrGj5fV7Mve4tBHGtr8anYFWXZ/tVOuOGs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=wlqPBD6dNav1ezmjaI+YixB2QWJzgWMHXHJaO0dvzoEPGlhE75UMz1NUuA83s5DFD7EqeRfyYMSnELCu/skwrgvx2PoD2VjI2NaklYMedzEEoqBcyRZ+KWscycYFzA10XN6VKuS66CInbzPLfZ3BorLc7SWCw/Ve7cBwWmeFKDU= Received: by 10.86.66.1 with SMTP id o1mr700877fga.23.1199888375803; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:19:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10801090619x1ce5a178x1731db272c8d20fd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:19:35 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org, fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 58fec5b188aea1bf Cc: Subject: [PATCH] lockmgr and VFS plans X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:45:43 -0000 Hi, as previously explained in past e-mails, lockmgr() is going to face a massive restructuration. The work is progressing on two different rails: the former involves fixing consumers code in order to make it completely implementative details agnostic, in order to make it cleaner and more robust. The latter involves giving a good replacement for current functions and a faster implementation. lockmgr() is an old primitive widely used in our VFS subsystem, so this overhaul would involve someway VFS subsystem necessarilly, in particular about the former line of development. Part of this overhaul (for this preliminary stages) consists in removing the 'thread' argument from the lockmgr() interface which also means making useless the same argument about VFS functions (vn_lock, VOP_LOCK() and VOP_UNLOCK()). This removal can be done in a 'stacked' way and can be splitted in 2 different stages: the former will clean up only vn_lock() while the latter will be more aggressive and it will involve hardly VFS, fixing VOP_LOCK1() and VOP_UNLOCK(). This patch removes the 'thread' argument from vn_lock(): http://people.freebsd.org/~attilio/vn_lock.diff What I'm looking for is: - objections to this - testers (even if a small crowd alredy offered to test this patch) I test-compiled and runned LINT with this patch and it works perfectly, but a wider audience would be better. I also would appreciate a lot if people planning to do changes to lockmgr or VFS would coordinate their efforts with me, even on small changes. Thanks, Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 14:56:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CC116A421 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from vms040pub.verizon.net (vms040pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235A313C467 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex.kovalenko@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.3.231] ([70.21.165.95]) by vms040.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JUD008YXTL19TF1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:58:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:55:29 -0500 From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-reply-to: <18308.51970.859622.363321@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> To: Andrew Gallatin Message-id: <1199890529.756.10.camel@RabbitsDen> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> <18308.51970.859622.363321@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=E9=9F=93=E5=AE=B6=E6=A8=99?= Bill Hacker , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:56:49 -0000 On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 08:23 -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= writes: > > > OTOH that's all GPFS is. > > > > Far more features than that - 'robust', 'fault tolerant', 'Disaster Recovery' > > ... all the usual buzzwords. > > > > And nothing prevents using 'cluster' tools on a single box. Not storage-wise anyway. > > Having had the misfortune of being involved in a cluster which used > GPFS, I can attest that GPFS is anything but "robust" and "fault > tolerant" in my experience. Granted this was a few years ago, and > things may have improved, but that one horrible experience was > sufficient to make me avoid GPFS for life. Would you mind sharing your experience, maybe in the private E-mail. I am especially interested in the platform you have used (as in AIX or Linux) and underlying storage configuration (as in directly attached vs. separate file system servers). I am running few small AIX clusters in the lab using GPFS 3.1 over iSCSI and so far was fairly pleased with that. However, OP's point was that ZFS has inherent cluster abilities, of which I have found no information whatsoever. > > Drew > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 15:39:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F1916A419 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:39:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C53813C457 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:39:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id m09FbpOc023479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id m09FaYUG092096; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:36:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18308.59929.901540.689667@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:36:34 -0500 (EST) To: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" In-Reply-To: <1199890529.756.10.camel@RabbitsDen> References: <20080106141157.I105@fledge.watson.org> <47810DE3.3050106@FreeBSD.org> <478119AB.8050906@FreeBSD.org> <47814160.4050401@samsco.org> <4781541D.6070500@conducive.net> <47815D29.2000509@conducive.net> <1199664196.899.10.camel@RabbitsDen> <47818E97.8030601@conducive.net> <18308.51970.859622.363321@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <1199890529.756.10.camel@RabbitsDen> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Cc: askbill@conducive.net, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS honesty X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:39:45 -0000 "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" writes: > > On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 08:23 -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= writes: > > > > OTOH that's all GPFS is. > > > > > > Far more features than that - 'robust', 'fault tolerant', 'Disaster Recovery' > > > ... all the usual buzzwords. > > > > > > And nothing prevents using 'cluster' tools on a single box. Not storage-wise anyway. > > > > Having had the misfortune of being involved in a cluster which used > > GPFS, I can attest that GPFS is anything but "robust" and "fault > > tolerant" in my experience. Granted this was a few years ago, and > > things may have improved, but that one horrible experience was > > sufficient to make me avoid GPFS for life. > Would you mind sharing your experience, maybe in the private E-mail. I > am especially interested in the platform you have used (as in AIX or > Linux) and underlying storage configuration (as in directly attached vs. > separate file system servers). > > I am running few small AIX clusters in the lab using GPFS 3.1 over iSCSI > and so far was fairly pleased with that. Linux, with GPFS 1.x over ethernet. If there was even the slightest load on the ethernet network, and a GPFS heartbeat message got lost, the entire FS would die. That did not meet my definition of robust :(. Note that this was nearly 4 years ago, so it has likely gotten better. > However, OP's point was that ZFS has inherent cluster abilities, of > which I have found no information whatsoever. Indeed, but I do remember hearing the Lustre/ZFS rumors. Drew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 17:39:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9015116A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EF913C459 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so352915fgg.35 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:39:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=/Kua3Gd6lLPwAfCX11yTFkrGhhbGEbntkGFN0flXDiw=; b=UisE5dvpGbE0w8C6qN9w7eLUUMaheELn4sRgFd8j/ljUbPhDEkpCdhXGz6atJmFU4NSDXko4XKkHpLzyyF2m7u9zxzH6KAJ2GNKImnbx4o503skSI8tSXqzRPtq/sQE3mCAAtSTbj4P5l1aZQz5PK76zCWOQ4+q9fR2hDcAMBP0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kqRuRjnUak94t/6LCt9/BXuJLUUswCP1ouuIl709PedcBBJXjEJ0dAlX7Y8vwGpHebX8IUbqmQ3+JsrYHCNiuAhA+oR63fzpTUrSd/flw2QwoB/jfa0GL11HscIy/YzAfL9+Jlocx7489Lez4Y2zIwk7HfBBWu8JkfUWYcCjayw= Received: by 10.86.76.16 with SMTP id y16mr874819fga.35.1199900370848; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:39:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801090939r3d464892l95606e83e2d0459e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:39:30 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> <861w8sp44p.fsf@ds4.des.no> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, pjd@freebsd.org, ivoras@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:39:32 -0000 On 1/8/08, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > How about including the URL of the ZFS tuning guide in the > > warning message: > > > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide > > > > It contains all the necessary information for both i386 and > > amd64 machines. > > Actually, it fails to mention the most important bit: vfs.zfs.arc_max, > which allows you to restrict the amount of memory used by ZFS to > something comfortably smaller than vm.kmem_size. > It was in the ZFS tunning guide, but was removed in revision 20. Doesn't say why the change was made. Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 17:43:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02DA16A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frascone@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246ED13C4DB for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frascone@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so347359rvb.43 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:43:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=QbZg/WEU7BqVTTZfmorKRTkQNhZOGNcMK054HJCHaWo=; b=cMdflf01mv8UzGDUUJ+43ZmnQHI+I1py7+VjuG3m5Q+f3NTS4V2cKTTGLm2p3kbyxqLDuxoMhsz/dBy8NWtQTvYS9H9WYJOcReCB+Ag82yANe9YxCrJQttYjkXWaE5BF0gOfUD6o2P9iFFg/DzVR9hWrlUa4pgsfhD/2gwRkwmw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=YtuJ04HyPnVCy7bvNI3SRjoiUWgmSZ3cfb41Vx/SKSceZ3IfukCd+J3rd0kHgZcQ83Tu5GZ3eyBjorPN7zJYWO6s2Prx20ULOVHJZyWoOJ/9o5EIfFQXdYPiDhRqqiefdHPHyhJI5u5l0npblvs3Hh7LRd/C//xRQabkEyRGQgc= Received: by 10.141.193.1 with SMTP id v1mr569560rvp.73.1199898925589; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.50.5 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:15:25 -0500 From: "David Frascone" Sender: frascone@gmail.com To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_33095_22656966.1199898925564" X-Google-Sender-Auth: e95508e58938d8b2 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Small patch to fix top in large NIS environments X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:43:28 -0000 ------=_Part_33095_22656966.1199898925564 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The -u flag to top is supposed to limit uid lookups. But, it was still spinning through the entire password database with while (getpwent()). At Cisco, which has a fairly large NIS database, this takes forever, and top never starts. I filed this bug to address it: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=119490 The attached patch fixes it. This is my first submission, so let me know if this is the proper order, etc, to post the patches (i.e. file the bug, the post a fix) -Dave ------=_Part_33095_22656966.1199898925564 Content-Type: text/plain; name=patch.txt Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_fb84tib80 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=patch.txt SW5kZXg6IHVzci5iaW4vdG9wL21hY2hpbmUuYwo9PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09ClJDUyBmaWxlOiAvdXNyL0Zy ZWVCU0QvY3ZzdXAvc3JjL3Vzci5iaW4vdG9wL21hY2hpbmUuYyx2CnJldHJpZXZpbmcgcmV2aXNp b24gMS44MwpkaWZmIC1yMS44MyBtYWNoaW5lLmMKMjI2YzIyNgo8IG1hY2hpbmVfaW5pdChzdHJ1 Y3Qgc3RhdGljcyAqc3RhdGljcykKLS0tCj4gbWFjaGluZV9pbml0KHN0cnVjdCBzdGF0aWNzICpz dGF0aWNzLCBjaGFyIGRvX3VuYW1lcykKMjQwYzI0MCwyNDEKPCAJd2hpbGUgKChwdyA9IGdldHB3 ZW50KCkpICE9IE5VTEwpIHsKLS0tCj4gCWlmIChkb191bmFtZXMpIHsKPiAJICAgIHdoaWxlICgo cHcgPSBnZXRwd2VudCgpKSAhPSBOVUxMKSB7CjI0MmEyNDQKPiAJICAgIH0KSW5kZXg6IGNvbnRy aWIvdG9wL3RvcC5jCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KUkNTIGZpbGU6IC91c3IvRnJlZUJTRC9jdnN1cC9zcmMv Y29udHJpYi90b3AvdG9wLmMsdgpyZXRyaWV2aW5nIHJldmlzaW9uIDEuMjMKZGlmZiAtcjEuMjMg dG9wLmMKNDUzYzQ1Mwo8ICAgICBpZiAobWFjaGluZV9pbml0KCZzdGF0aWNzKSA9PSAtMSkKLS0t Cj4gICAgIGlmIChtYWNoaW5lX2luaXQoJnN0YXRpY3MsIGRvX3VuYW1lcykgPT0gLTEpCg== ------=_Part_33095_22656966.1199898925564-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 18:01:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D259D16A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from solow.pil.dk (relay.pil.dk [195.41.47.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A3D13C465 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from tirith.brixandersen.dk (0x55534f5f.adsl.cybercity.dk [85.83.79.95]) by solow.pil.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67E31CC0DF for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:00:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by tirith.brixandersen.dk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 28C2A11436; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:00:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:00:58 +0100 From: Henrik Brix Andersen To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080109180058.GA99092@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <83358.1199882234@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83358.1199882234@critter.freebsd.dk> X-PGP-Key: http://www.brixandersen.dk/files/HenrikBrixAndersen.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:01:01 -0000 --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 12:37:14PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In the meantime, the price of USB-IEEE488 gadgets has fallen > drastically, and I have switched to using such a gadget from > http://store.prologix.biz. Just curious, do we have driver support for that kind of USB devices? Brix --=20 Henrik Brix Andersen --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) Comment: GnuPG signed iD8DBQFHhQvav+Q4flTiePgRArtLAJ4h6Kxjgy6p7NTXzJhV6e3Ec95TLgCcCl2s yKmbzBQgcKIZBe9RViNV0jA= =d8Jz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 18:16:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F67F16A468 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:16:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C39113C4EB for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:16:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A361617105; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:16:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m09IGjNA085017; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:16:45 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Henrik Brix Andersen From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:00:58 +0100." <20080109180058.GA99092@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:16:45 +0000 Message-ID: <85016.1199902605@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:16:47 -0000 In message <20080109180058.GA99092@tirith.brixandersen.dk>, Henrik Brix Anderse n writes: >On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 12:37:14PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In the meantime, the price of USB-IEEE488 gadgets has fallen >> drastically, and I have switched to using such a gadget from >> http://store.prologix.biz. > >Just curious, do we have driver support for that kind of USB devices? Yes, it appears as a USB serial port (uftdi driver). -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 18:22:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BAE16A421 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4999013C4E9 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942F8721C4; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:22:44 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:22:47 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <86tzlonozc.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86tzlonozc.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1233395.7tui3ac4fn"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801091922.56670.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Andrew Reilly , Peter Jeremy , Poul-Henning Kamp , Igor Mozolevsky , Kostik Belousov , Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:22:46 -0000 --nextPart1233395.7tui3ac4fn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > Actually, malloc(3) can use madvise(2) to notify the kernel that > arbitrary pages in the arena are unused and can be discarded. The > current implementation will do so if the H option is specified. Ah, interesting. I was not aware of that. However, in this context it will likely only help partially since you still= =20 need a full page to be free (and with a lot of programs many allocations wi= ll=20 be significantly smaller than that, and I have to assume no real-life mallo= c=20 will align all allocations to pages, or the overhead would be extreme). =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart1233395.7tui3ac4fn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhREADNor2+l1i30RAqrxAKDobi72PKcOBSMlnBQlL0tn4PyuKgCgz3mQ +Hfs+Btk0JT/4Xcs+6ejjS4= =VHnV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1233395.7tui3ac4fn-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 18:59:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16BC16A468 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:59:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw1.york.ac.uk (mail-gw1.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D0713C442 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:59:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw6.york.ac.uk (mail-gw6.york.ac.uk [144.32.129.26]) by mail-gw1.york.ac.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m09IxNxG019702; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:59:23 GMT Received: from buffy-128.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.160] helo=buffy.york.ac.uk) by mail-gw6.york.ac.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JCg95-0006CL-FC; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:59:23 +0000 Received: from buffy.york.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m09IxNr9076551; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:59:23 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: (from ga9@localhost) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m09IxM8V076550; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:59:22 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: buffy.york.ac.uk: ga9 set sender to gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk using -f From: Gavin Atkinson To: David Frascone In-Reply-To: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:35:47 +0000 Message-Id: <1199903747.70812.43.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-York-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-York-MailScanner-From: gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Small patch to fix top in large NIS environments X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:59:34 -0000 On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 12:15 -0500, David Frascone wrote: > The -u flag to top is supposed to limit uid lookups. But, it was still > spinning through the entire password database with while (getpwent()). At > Cisco, which has a fairly large NIS database, this takes forever, and top > never starts. > > I filed this bug to address it: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=119490 > > The attached patch fixes it. This is my first submission, so let me know if > this is the proper order, etc, to post the patches (i.e. file the bug, the > post a fix) This is a longstanding bug, sadly. bin/20799 seems to be the first to mention it, and is over 7 years old now. Every system I deploy at work has to have top(1) patched to avoid this. I think your solution of not sizing the usernames when -u is specified is a sensible one, although I think some thought really needs to be put into whether sizing is necessary at all - maybe the solution is to just limit the username field to 8 or 10 characters or so, and either trim longer names or show them as userids. Parsing a huge (in my case ~25,000 users) password map when top is run seems stupid, especially given that many invocations of top are at exactly the time when significant extra load on a system is not a good idea. It would probably be best to submit your patch as a followup to PR bin/89762. Gavin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 19:06:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97D516A469 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:06:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw2.york.ac.uk (mail-gw2.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.247]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1940B13C447 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:06:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw7.york.ac.uk (mail-gw7.york.ac.uk [144.32.129.30]) by mail-gw2.york.ac.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m09IZnKc019652; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:35:49 GMT Received: from buffy-128.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.160] helo=buffy.york.ac.uk) by mail-gw7.york.ac.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JCfmH-0001yf-E8; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:35:49 +0000 Received: from buffy.york.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m09IZmLY076465; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:35:48 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: (from ga9@localhost) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m09IZmAE076464; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:35:48 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: buffy.york.ac.uk: ga9 set sender to gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk using -f From: Gavin Atkinson To: David Frascone In-Reply-To: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:35:47 +0000 Message-Id: <1199903747.70812.43.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-York-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-York-MailScanner-From: gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Small patch to fix top in large NIS environments X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:06:20 -0000 On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 12:15 -0500, David Frascone wrote: > The -u flag to top is supposed to limit uid lookups. But, it was still > spinning through the entire password database with while (getpwent()). At > Cisco, which has a fairly large NIS database, this takes forever, and top > never starts. > > I filed this bug to address it: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=119490 > > The attached patch fixes it. This is my first submission, so let me know if > this is the proper order, etc, to post the patches (i.e. file the bug, the > post a fix) This is a longstanding bug, sadly. bin/20799 seems to be the first to mention it, and is over 7 years old now. Every system I deploy at work has to have top(1) patched to avoid this. I think your solution of not sizing the usernames when -u is specified is a sensible one, although I think some thought really needs to be put into whether sizing is necessary at all - maybe the solution is to just limit the username field to 8 or 10 characters or so, and either trim longer names or show them as userids. Parsing a huge (in my case ~25,000 users) password map when top is run seems stupid, especially given that many invocations of top are at exactly the time when significant extra load on a system is not a good idea. It would probably be best to submit your patch as a followup to PR bin/89762. Gavin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 20:15:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6448516A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:15:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp2.freeserve.com (smtp2.wanadoo.co.uk [193.252.22.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB513C44B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:15:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DC9EF7000089; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:15:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from Vostro (unknown [91.104.121.205]) by mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 67E2C7000081; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:15:46 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20080109201546425.67E2C7000081@mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com From: "Darran" To: "'Scot Hetzel'" References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:15:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <000a01c852fc$6aacb9c0$6501a8c0@Vostro> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=MD5; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C852FC.65601110" In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AchQkrYPgL7YwhZZRQOdyKzOL1sH5wCYv7gg Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:15:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C852FC.65601110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scot, Thanks for your advice, unfortunately it didn't work as I had the 64 bit driver and it appears that it causes major problems and so I rebuilt it. Now I have a completely different problem, I have done make buildworld and it appeared to build ok (this is a fresh install) I edited my /usr/src/sys/amd64/KERNELCONF and called it MYKERNEL and setup a link from my root folder, I did make buildkernel from usr/src and it failed with : MAKE=make sh /usr/src/sys/conf/newvers.sh GENERIC cc -c -O2 -frename-registers -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -march=athlon64 -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone -mfpmath=387 -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -Werror vers.c linking kernel.debug uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x3e1): In function `sctp_generic_recvmsg': /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2600: undefined reference to `sctp_sorecvmsg' uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x22ad): In function `sctp_generic_sendmsg_iov': /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2478: undefined reference to `sctp_lower_sosend' uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x2599): In function `sctp_generic_sendmsg': /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2371: undefined reference to `sctp_lower_sosend' uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x271f): In function `sctp_peeloff': /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2238: undefined reference to `sctp_can_peel_off' uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x28e4):/usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2279: undefined reference to `sctp_do_peeloff' rtsock.o(.text+0xc36): In function `rt_newaddrmsg': /usr/src/sys/net/rtsock.c:897: undefined reference to `sctp_addr_change' in_proto.o(.data+0x150): undefined reference to `sctp_input' in_proto.o(.data+0x160): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' in_proto.o(.data+0x168): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' in_proto.o(.data+0x178): undefined reference to `sctp_init' in_proto.o(.data+0x190): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' in_proto.o(.data+0x198): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' in_proto.o(.data+0x1b8): undefined reference to `sctp_input' in_proto.o(.data+0x1c8): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' in_proto.o(.data+0x1d0): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' in_proto.o(.data+0x1f8): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' in_proto.o(.data+0x200): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' in_proto.o(.data+0x220): undefined reference to `sctp_input' in_proto.o(.data+0x230): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' in_proto.o(.data+0x238): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' in_proto.o(.data+0x260): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' in_proto.o(.data+0x268): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MYKERNEL. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. *** Error code 1 I have some files on my web site that might be needed and I can get any more if needed : FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #1: Tue Jan 8 18:11:41 GMT 2008 root@:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 The full build script is at www.deejc.net/freebsd/kernelbuild Demsg = www.deejc.net/freebsd/dmesg Make.conf = www.deejc.net/freebsd/make Kernel conf - www.deejc.net/freebsd/MYKERNEL ls of usr/src/sys/amd64/conf = www.deejc.net/freebsd/ls Cheers Darran http://www.deejc.net -----Original Message----- From: Scot Hetzel [mailto:swhetzel@gmail.com] Sent: 06 January 2008 18:34 To: Darran Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 On 1/6/08, Darran wrote: > Hello all, > > I downloaded, burnt and installed 7.0-RC1 (all torrent) on amd64 > I downloaded the dell windows drivers for my laptop wireless card (which > worked on i3686 6.2-RELEASE) and used ndisgen to create the .ko file > (bcmwl5_sys.ko) and loaded it and then realised I had created the 32 bit > driver so I re-did it and used the 64 bit file and loaded the 64bit .ko and > at that point my laptop (Dell Vostro 1000) hung. > I had put bcmwl5_sys_load="YES" in the loader.conf file > I rebooted and now I don't get anything. As soon as it starts to boot it > stops. > There is a screen showing kernel dump info and I can copy it if needed but I > have to burn the rescue iso otherwise I cant boot. > > Is this a known problem ? > Does anyone have any advice ? > If you have bcmwl5_sys_load in your loader.conf, this is causing the 32bit driver to load at boot, bcmwl563_sys_load needs to be placed in loader.conf for the 64 bit driver. To boot your system without the rescue CD, at the boot menu choose "Escape to loader prompt". Then use "unload" to unload all modules, and "unset bcmwl5_sys" to disable loading of the bcmwl5_sys module. Finally, use "boot" to continue booting. When the system has finished booting, check /boot/loader.conf, does it have bcmwl5_sys_load or bcmwl564_sys_load? Also check that you placed the 64bit driver in your module path, and removed the 32bit driver from the module path. 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Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:01:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pho@holm.cc) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FC0113C46B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:01:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pho@holm.cc) Received: (qmail 81358 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2008 20:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO peter.osted.lan) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 9 Jan 2008 20:34:33 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 83.95.197.164 Received: from peter.osted.lan (localhost.osted.lan [127.0.0.1]) by peter.osted.lan (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m09KYXun014071; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:34:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pho@peter.osted.lan) Received: (from pho@localhost) by peter.osted.lan (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id m09KYXpL014070; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:34:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pho) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:34:33 +0100 From: Peter Holm To: Attilio Rao Message-ID: <20080109203433.GA13933@peter.osted.lan> References: <3bbf2fe10801090619x1ce5a178x1731db272c8d20fd@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10801090619x1ce5a178x1731db272c8d20fd@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] lockmgr and VFS plans X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:01:16 -0000 On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 03:19:35PM +0100, Attilio Rao wrote: > Hi, > as previously explained in past e-mails, lockmgr() is going to face a > massive restructuration. > The work is progressing on two different rails: the former involves > fixing consumers code in order to make it completely implementative > details agnostic, in order to make it cleaner and more robust. The > latter involves giving a good replacement for current functions and a > faster implementation. > lockmgr() is an old primitive widely used in our VFS subsystem, so > this overhaul would involve someway VFS subsystem necessarilly, in > particular about the former line of development. > > Part of this overhaul (for this preliminary stages) consists in > removing the 'thread' argument from the lockmgr() interface which also > means making useless the same argument about VFS functions (vn_lock, > VOP_LOCK() and VOP_UNLOCK()). This removal can be done in a 'stacked' > way and can be splitted in 2 different stages: the former will clean > up only vn_lock() while the latter will be more aggressive and it will > involve hardly VFS, fixing VOP_LOCK1() and VOP_UNLOCK(). This patch > removes the 'thread' argument from vn_lock(): > http://people.freebsd.org/~attilio/vn_lock.diff > I'll try and test it this wekend. > What I'm looking for is: > - objections to this > - testers (even if a small crowd alredy offered to test this patch) > > I test-compiled and runned LINT with this patch and it works > perfectly, but a wider audience would be better. > > I also would appreciate a lot if people planning to do changes to > lockmgr or VFS would coordinate their efforts with me, even on small > changes. > > Thanks, > Attilio > > > -- > Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Peter Holm From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 21:41:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBEC16A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:41:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shuvaev@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17FA13C447 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:41:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shuvaev@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE30FC90E; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:41:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B22C901; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:41:43 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Received: from mail.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de (wptd92.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.40.192]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50A0B6A6; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:41:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost.my.domain ([91.10.131.39]) by mail.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3HF96) with ESMTP id 2008010922414057-884 ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:41:40 +0100 Received: by localhost.my.domain (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:42:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:42:24 +0100 From: Alexey Shuvaev To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk Message-ID: <20080109214224.GA1966@localhost.my.domain> Mail-Followup-To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080109180058.GA99092@tirith.brixandersen.dk> <85016.1199902605@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <85016.1199902605@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organization: Universitaet Wuerzburg X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on domino1/uni-wuerzburg(Release 7.0.3HF96 | December 5, 2007) at 01/09/2008 22:41:40, Serialize by Router on domino1/uni-wuerzburg(Release 7.0.3HF96 | December 5, 2007) at 01/09/2008 22:41:42, Serialize complete at 01/09/2008 22:41:42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=answer Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:41:48 -0000 Hello! Well, it seems that I am that lost soul who has NI PCIIA isa card in the experimental setup a few meters away from the office computer. The computer on the experiment is Dell pentium (i585) with 64 Mib RAM and 2 Gb HDD. It was shipped something around 1994, but still alive! And I have 2 options: either Win9x or FreeBSD. With the second preferred. The dream about "FreeBSD for a scientist" was so sweet... A friend of mine, makc at issp dot ac dot ru is an active maintainer of some number of scientific ports like qtiplot, one of replacements for Origin. Bearing in mind existence of other ports (SciLab, Octavia, gsl, gnuplot, gtkdatabox[2], ...) and development-friendly nature it makes FreeBSD a good choice for a scientist. Well in comparison with my friend I cannot really vote (by contibuting some code) for now, so... If I understand things correctly, the libgpib + pcii driver stays in the CVS repository forever? At least with RELENG_7_0 tag? If so then this mail is not an objection to remove these bits at all, only FWIW. AFAIK the GPIB is a real bus (with its own addressing, signalling and so on) with possibility to attach many devices to it. So if the adapters from Prologix appear to the system as serial ports, are they a stripped down imlementation of GPIB? One external experimental device = one adapter? And the Makefile to compile pcii device driver should look like this, or I miss something? ---Makefile--- .PATH: /usr/src/sys/dev/ieee488 KMOD= pcii SRCS= pcii.c upd7210.c tnt4882.c SRCS+= bus_if.h device_if.h isa_if.h pci_if.h upd7210.h .include ---End-of-Makefile--- Thanks! Alexey. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 22:24:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8B516A418 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:24:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frascone@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2152A13C44B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:24:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frascone@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so422338rvb.43 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=dEZ4mAbn+kRhe30TSCSeTL6kQvLS2SyVq/q/zDkWUww=; b=iqn959nBHEB/aOSuV/tZBMBmGhE40A0Bn/A8lTF/xKc0MpZRc++I8fqTNv/La10i6x8fAfciMImEcVzS9Xor02ww10fniuoeTaZ8Ydl+bY+XwJK2B10UkDmeYuEzxqz0oLgPgsAPS13sErocvVyAX35BfCro9MdaFRw3l+BlVWQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Sin2d94BDln4JuOxoXVKw5srGWDqRGzYI07dRT/KKsTO6TpVSKQFzUKsHXKJfw+PPtJmImpZDzbmKD7kiHE8SDmpmoUogySTPVtZC/HUDbDF8rlnDqIAi+FT/VWFbbndbj+0m0VXxBW463be7AlPoB1aaNbA9qqhy4tyAgbI7A0= Received: by 10.141.79.12 with SMTP id g12mr772184rvl.87.1199917464826; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.50.5 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:24:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9cf5ced20801091424k60d136a7xc4a62d0e105fafff@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:24:24 -0500 From: "David Frascone" Sender: frascone@gmail.com To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_33913_22734575.1199917464826" References: <9cf5ced20801090915i3df2d4a1lc057a38b20fc5ac2@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 88661bcea8bf975a X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: Small patch to fix top in large NIS environments X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:24:25 -0000 ------=_Part_33913_22734575.1199917464826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Oops -- should have checked -- I am not used to working as root, so root didn't have my normal .cvsrc. Unified diff attached. -Dave On Jan 9, 2008 12:15 PM, David Frascone wrote: > > The -u flag to top is supposed to limit uid lookups. But, it was still > spinning through the entire password database with while (getpwent()). At > Cisco, which has a fairly large NIS database, this takes forever, and top > never starts. > > I filed this bug to address it: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=119490 > > The attached patch fixes it. This is my first submission, so let me know > if this is the proper order, etc, to post the patches ( i.e. file the bug, > the post a fix) > > -Dave > ------=_Part_33913_22734575.1199917464826 Content-Type: text/plain; name=patch.txt Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_fb8fvfoh1 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=patch.txt SW5kZXg6IHVzci5iaW4vdG9wL21hY2hpbmUuYwo9PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09ClJDUyBmaWxlOiAvdXNyL0Zy ZWVCU0QvY3ZzdXAvc3JjL3Vzci5iaW4vdG9wL21hY2hpbmUuYyx2CnJldHJpZXZpbmcgcmV2aXNp b24gMS44MwpkaWZmIC11IC1yMS44MyBtYWNoaW5lLmMKLS0tIHVzci5iaW4vdG9wL21hY2hpbmUu YwkyNiBPY3QgMjAwNyAwODowMDo0MCAtMDAwMAkxLjgzCisrKyB1c3IuYmluL3RvcC9tYWNoaW5l LmMJOSBKYW4gMjAwOCAxNzowODozMiAtMDAwMApAQCAtMjIzLDcgKzIyMyw3IEBACiBzdGF0aWMg aW50IHN3YXBtb2RlKGludCAqcmV0YXZhaWwsIGludCAqcmV0ZnJlZSk7CiAKIGludAotbWFjaGlu ZV9pbml0KHN0cnVjdCBzdGF0aWNzICpzdGF0aWNzKQorbWFjaGluZV9pbml0KHN0cnVjdCBzdGF0 aWNzICpzdGF0aWNzLCBjaGFyIGRvX3VuYW1lcykKIHsKIAlpbnQgcGFnZXNpemU7CiAJc2l6ZV90 IG1vZGVsZW47CkBAIC0yMzcsOSArMjM3LDExIEBACiAJICAgIG1vZGVsZW4gIT0gc2l6ZW9mKHNt cG1vZGUpKQogCQlzbXBtb2RlID0gMDsKIAotCXdoaWxlICgocHcgPSBnZXRwd2VudCgpKSAhPSBO VUxMKSB7CisJaWYgKGRvX3VuYW1lcykgeworCSAgICB3aGlsZSAoKHB3ID0gZ2V0cHdlbnQoKSkg IT0gTlVMTCkgewogCQlpZiAoc3RybGVuKHB3LT5wd19uYW1lKSA+IG5hbWVsZW5ndGgpCiAJCQlu YW1lbGVuZ3RoID0gc3RybGVuKHB3LT5wd19uYW1lKTsKKwkgICAgfQogCX0KIAlpZiAoc21wbW9k ZSAmJiBuYW1lbGVuZ3RoID4gU01QVU5BTUVMRU4pCiAJCW5hbWVsZW5ndGggPSBTTVBVTkFNRUxF TjsKSW5kZXg6IGNvbnRyaWIvdG9wL3RvcC5jCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KUkNTIGZpbGU6IC91c3IvRnJl ZUJTRC9jdnN1cC9zcmMvY29udHJpYi90b3AvdG9wLmMsdgpyZXRyaWV2aW5nIHJldmlzaW9uIDEu MjMKZGlmZiAtdSAtcjEuMjMgdG9wLmMKLS0tIGNvbnRyaWIvdG9wL3RvcC5jCTQgTWF5IDIwMDcg MTU6NDI6NTggLTAwMDAJMS4yMworKysgY29udHJpYi90b3AvdG9wLmMJOSBKYW4gMjAwOCAxNzow ODo1NiAtMDAwMApAQCAtNDUwLDcgKzQ1MCw3IEBACiAgICAgfQogCiAgICAgLyogaW5pdGlhbGl6 ZSB0aGUga2VybmVsIG1lbW9yeSBpbnRlcmZhY2UgKi8KLSAgICBpZiAobWFjaGluZV9pbml0KCZz dGF0aWNzKSA9PSAtMSkKKyAgICBpZiAobWFjaGluZV9pbml0KCZzdGF0aWNzLCBkb191bmFtZXMp ID09IC0xKQogICAgIHsKIAlleGl0KDEpOwogICAgIH0K ------=_Part_33913_22734575.1199917464826-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 22:56:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D5616A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A51613C455 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:56:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7255717105; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:56:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m09Mun33087023; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:56:49 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Alexey Shuvaev From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:42:24 +0100." <20080109214224.GA1966@localhost.my.domain> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: <87022.1199919409@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:56:52 -0000 In message <20080109214224.GA1966@localhost.my.domain>, Alexey Shuvaev writes: >Well, it seems that I am that lost soul who has NI PCIIA isa card >in the experimental setup a few meters away from the office computer. Whee! I have a user! :-) >If I understand things correctly, the libgpib + pcii driver >stays in the CVS repository forever? At least with RELENG_7_0 tag? >If so then this mail is not an objection to remove these bits at all, >only FWIW. Yes, if there is no significant userbase, it will stay in RELENG_7, but will not be in RELENG_8. My worry is that since I don't use the GPIB cards anymore, the code will be (already is) pretty unmaintained, and thus likely to rot away. If it transpires people are actually using it, things are different, but it needs to be users, not just people who thought about playing with it. >So if the adapters from Prologix appear to the system as serial ports, >are they a stripped down imlementation of GPIB? >One external experimental device = one adapter? It can do a full bus, you select the different devices using "magic" commands. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 23:22:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F89116A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shuvaev@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C85113C461 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shuvaev@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC0CF1B3; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:22:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51945F1AF; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:22:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Received: from mail.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de (wptd92.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.40.192]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2591EF1A2; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:22:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost.my.domain ([91.10.131.39]) by mail.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3HF96) with ESMTP id 2008011000223774-1143 ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:22:37 +0100 Received: by localhost.my.domain (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:23:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:23:17 +0100 From: Alexey Shuvaev To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk Message-ID: <20080109232317.GA3099@localhost.my.domain> Mail-Followup-To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080109214224.GA1966@localhost.my.domain> <87022.1199919409@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87022.1199919409@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organization: Universitaet Wuerzburg X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on domino1/uni-wuerzburg(Release 7.0.3HF96 | December 5, 2007) at 01/10/2008 00:22:38, Serialize by Router on domino1/uni-wuerzburg(Release 7.0.3HF96 | December 5, 2007) at 01/10/2008 00:22:40, Serialize complete at 01/10/2008 00:22:40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IEEE488 (lack of) future in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:22:42 -0000 On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 10:56:49PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > My worry is that since I don't use the GPIB cards anymore, the code > will be (already is) pretty unmaintained, and thus likely to rot > away. > > If it transpires people are actually using it, things are different, > but it needs to be users, not just people who thought about playing > with it. > Ok, no real userbase behind me. And as for myself I think I can always either stick to some RELENG or do some code cleanup to make the driver working with CURRENT (well, I hope). > >So if the adapters from Prologix appear to the system as serial ports, > >are they a stripped down imlementation of GPIB? > >One external experimental device = one adapter? > > It can do a full bus, you select the different devices using "magic" > commands. > Thanks for the info, I will keep these devices in mind. Alexey. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 22:49:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339D916A41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:49:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@ruomad.net) Received: from postfix2-g20.free.fr (postfix2-g20.free.fr [212.27.60.43]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0141B13C45A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:49:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@ruomad.net) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by postfix2-g20.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2FC21FC103 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:14:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E6412B6EF for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:15:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (vln78-1-82-238-160-33.fbx.proxad.net [82.238.160.33]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6FE12B6B6 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:15:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47854784.2080109@ruomad.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:15:32 +0100 From: Bruno Damour User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:34:22 +0000 Subject: zpool cannot be imported into opensolaris X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:49:20 -0000 Hello, I have setup zfs (even for root) in freebsd-current. I'm dual-booting with opensolaris (b79, self-built) but the pools cannot be imported : vil1 ~ # zpool import pool: data id: 14539542783958606623 state: UNAVAIL status: The pool was last accessed by another system. action: The pool cannot be imported due to damaged devices or data. see: http://www.sun.com/msg/ZFS-8000-EY config: data UNAVAIL insufficient replicas mirror UNAVAIL corrupted data c1d1s2 ONLINE c2d1s2 ONLINE Of course the pool is allright in freebsd, and hum, yes, I did export the pool allright. Any ideas ? I that the expected behaviour ? I understand zfs is version 9 in Opensolaris, while the freebsd is still version 6. Thanks in advance Bruno From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 23:37:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACFE16A420; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:37:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from mail.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632DB13C44B; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:37:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from homeKamikaze.norad (nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.72.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47769405C36; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:20:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:20:13 +0100 From: Dominic Fandrey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:37:03 -0000 Hello, I'm writing this mail on behalf of the largest German BSD community (http://bsdforen.de/). Some of our most respected and experienced community members have stopped using FreeBSD entirely, especially professional users have taken this step. Many of us are very attached to FreeBSD and those of us who turn our backs to the system consider this a personal loss. This mail is the result of a forum thread that consists of more than 200 posts (still growing) that started in October 2007 (http://www.bsdforen.de/showthread.php?t=19426). It is meant to sum up the causes of this development, the reasons we see for this and what we think might be promising ways to try solve these problems; at least in the areas we were able to achieve consent. The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are suffering for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been ignored. Only on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken seriously. The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions they report do not exist. Some of our members have even suffered the experience that they developed a patch, but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a "Linux solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never looked at Linux code. These problems seem to be exceptions, but they are very persistent exceptions. Problems concerning code that is currently being worked on are shown much attention, feedback and patches are happily taken and the developers supply the problem reporter with steps to take in order to track down these problems. The problem seems, in our opinion, to reside with unmaintained code. It seems that nobody wants to take responsibility for code that has been untouched for a longer period of time. This is quite understandable, considering that developers already have projects they're working on and probably consider much more important, but that does not make it less of a problem. What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the Security Team. The sole purpose of this team would be to take care of regressions that concern unmaintained code. To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to tracking performance problems or a performance test suite is required. This would hopefully allow us to write PRs and emails that would be taken more seriously. - Dominic Fandrey on behalf of BSDForen.de community From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 23:45:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391BC16A41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@terranova.net) Received: from tog.net (tog.net [216.89.226.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1285E13C448 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:45:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@terranova.net) Received: from [216.89.228.170] (host-216-89-228-170.wireless.terranova.net [216.89.228.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tog.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB6E29B6CC for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:45:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47855C9F.40603@terranova.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:45:35 -0500 From: Travis Mikalson Organization: TerraNovaNet Internet Services User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <1497D115-2534-4799-9D8E-18A267DF0B62@mipster.net> <9A374150-DC2A-439D-A205-E8867B663C5A@mipster.net> <477B0B07.8080703@terranova.net> <477CAF30.7020703@terranova.net> <4782A768.3020304@delphij.net> In-Reply-To: <4782A768.3020304@delphij.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ServerWorks/Broadcom HT1000 chipset errata saga X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:45:43 -0000 Xin LI wrote: > Here is a patch that brings the HT1000 changeset back to RELENG_7 and > RELENG_7_0. Newer change by phk@ seems to be harmless, but it does not > have effect for HT1000 either. Thanks for refreshing the patchset. Really hoping this will make it into RELENG_7_0. It has successfully worked around the crippling HT1000 SATA problems. -- TerraNovaNet Internet Services - Key Largo, FL Voice: (305)453-4011 x101 Fax: (305)451-5991 http://www.terranova.net/ ---------------------------------------------- Life's not fair, but the root password helps. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 9 23:53:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2151016A417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E9E13C459 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:53:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (unknown [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21DA28448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:53:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E620EB16C6; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:53:45 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CUn4NLGsZfwm; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:53:38 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADECEB0A29; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:53:37 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pfWpSd5lbfDHrKJJbDSLKH2FxhUxP/YPW8luGSqC3S8qGr1WPaAvG/qySEodHV+gQ NR/wr0Wlt9S4VW2goqSYg== Message-ID: <47855E7F.8020805@delphij.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:53:35 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Travis Mikalson References: <1497D115-2534-4799-9D8E-18A267DF0B62@mipster.net> <9A374150-DC2A-439D-A205-E8867B663C5A@mipster.net> <477B0B07.8080703@terranova.net> <477CAF30.7020703@terranova.net> <4782A768.3020304@delphij.net> <47855C9F.40603@terranova.net> In-Reply-To: <47855C9F.40603@terranova.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ServerWorks/Broadcom HT1000 chipset errata saga X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:53:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Travis Mikalson wrote: > Xin LI wrote: >> Here is a patch that brings the HT1000 changeset back to RELENG_7 and >> RELENG_7_0. Newer change by phk@ seems to be harmless, but it does not >> have effect for HT1000 either. > > Thanks for refreshing the patchset. > > Really hoping this will make it into RELENG_7_0. It has successfully > worked around the crippling HT1000 SATA problems. Yes, the changeset was committed into RELENG_7_0 and RELENG_7. Because it's very late of release cycle, I am afraid that we will not be able to incorporate this patchset in 6.3-RELEASE, but I think it would be a good errata candidate after testing. Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhV5/i+vbBBjt66ARAji8AJ9r59oPVQ789XUXZTb3jLewZy29hwCfZ+qi ceOYslAB6DygmwFfLKpZPsY= =vbo9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 00:02:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FF816A46D for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:02:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20EC13C465; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:02:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:02:54 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dominic Fandrey References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> In-Reply-To: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:02:58 -0000 Dominic Fandrey wrote: > Hello, > > I'm writing this mail on behalf of the largest German BSD community > (http://bsdforen.de/). Some of our most respected and experienced community > members have stopped using FreeBSD entirely, especially professional users > have taken this step. > > Many of us are very attached to FreeBSD and those of us who turn our backs to > the system consider this a personal loss. > > This mail is the result of a forum thread that consists of more than 200 posts > (still growing) that started in October 2007 > (http://www.bsdforen.de/showthread.php?t=19426). It is meant to sum up the > causes of this development, the reasons we see for this and what we think > might be promising ways to try solve these problems; at least in the areas we > were able to achieve consent. > > The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are suffering > for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk > suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and > stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been ignored. Only > on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken seriously. > > The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain unanswered > or the reporters are told that the regressions they report do not exist. Some > of our members have even suffered the experience that they developed a patch, > but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a "Linux > solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never looked at > Linux code. > > These problems seem to be exceptions, but they are very persistent exceptions. > Problems concerning code that is currently being worked on are shown much > attention, feedback and patches are happily taken and the developers supply > the problem reporter with steps to take in order to track down these problems. > > The problem seems, in our opinion, to reside with unmaintained code. It seems > that nobody wants to take responsibility for code that has been untouched for > a longer period of time. This is quite understandable, considering that > developers already have projects they're working on and probably consider much > more important, but that does not make it less of a problem. > > What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be the > establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the Security > Team. The sole purpose of this team would be to take care of regressions that > concern unmaintained code. > > To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to tracking > performance problems or a performance test suite is required. This would > hopefully allow us to write PRs and emails that would be taken more seriously. > > - Dominic Fandrey on behalf of BSDForen.de community Thanks for the feedback. It is hard to respond to the reports of poor performance or other problems without specific information though. I know from my own experience trying to investigate some of these performance issues that come up from time to time, that it is often very hard to get submitters to report sufficient information to understand a problem, even when they are pointed at documentation explaining the required steps in detail. However, we are in the process of introducing changes to the debugging tools to make this process easier; textdumps and DDB scripting will allow the most common debugging data to be collected in a more automated manner, reducing the need for user interaction. Another factor is that many of these issues are hardware dependent, and unless developers have access to the exact model and configuration of hardware (and/or the relevant hardware datasheets and errata) they are often impossible to replicate or understand. That being said, I do think we could do more to identify and track regressions as they occur, so this is definitely something we should think about in more depth. More importantly, members of the community are encouraged to come forward and help out with the task of maintaining older code. As you say, this often becomes neglected simply because there are never enough developers to go around. Best wishes, Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 00:06:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3686616A417; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD66D13C458; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (unknown [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57EF28448; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:06:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65631EB1524; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:06:07 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqh5zspQC5EI; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:06:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092E7EB08BD; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:06:03 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hG7YHP7IxRTFcpKIF/Yrt46DgniHCVtgWLT4KsfUG/YBRC9hKlfA/r8a6sR2X1SNB S/qdOzXaEdZJZg5xO3wOg== Message-ID: <4785616A.4070001@delphij.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:06:02 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Bates References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:09 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Bates wrote: > Sorry for the repost... > I don't think the first one posted.. > > posted to freebsd.stable, freebsd-current, Freebsd-hardware > > I checked the hardware in the online documentation manual/hardware > > It only lists the bits and peices of the machine say the hard drive > controller and so forth. but doesn't give you a particular system to > look at as a working machine with FreeBSD 6.2 > > does anybody know if a Dell PowerEdge 1950 > • Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processors 5400 series 3.16GHz > • 4GB Ram > > I am looking to attach 2 machines to a SAN to make a constantly up > system. Is there a Dell San and San Switch that will work with this > version of BSD? > > Thank you for your help It has been observed that there is some interrupt related issue with certain models of Dell PowerEdge 1950/2950 on 6.2-RELEASE, to be more specific, those which are configured without a RAID controller. The symptom is that server will hang on boot after detected acd0, but this is not reliably reproducible. At our company (we deploy hundreds of 1950/2950 online during last year), our important local changes that is made for these boxes include: - backport my bce(4) changes from RELENG_6. - backport MSI support, and enable by default. (*) *: This is the default behavior for 7.0, I have not encountered the problem mentioned above on any 1950/2950 boxes so far I have tested. That's said, I would recommend that you deploy 6.3-RELEASE (with proper loader.conf configuration to enable MSI) or 7.0-RELEASE once they are out of the door. I do not have much experience with SAN devices you have mentioned, though, so perhaps it's better to listen someone else's suggestions. Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD4DBQFHhWFpi+vbBBjt66ARAhaLAJdYQHtgCsXYYdgPvWOh0QiLARWmAKCU2sH5 9PLlYsSESqvoMHCekHtJfw== =xIhB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 00:35:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486C516A468 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:35:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260D513C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:35:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id C77968C12A; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:35:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:35:24 -0600 To: Dominic Fandrey Message-ID: <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:55:36 +0000 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:35:25 -0000 I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this post and raise serious issues in a non-confrontational manner. On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:20:13AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole systems. > Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often been answered > with denial or have simply been ignored. The responses on the mailing lists can indeed vary in quality. My own experience is that many of the key FreeBSD developers respond fairly well -- when they've got time to do so. Some exceptions exist. But I don't think any one person is working on amd64 to the exclusion of i386. Perhaps that is what it would take. Other than trying to identify individuals whose responses are doing more harm than good, I don't have any suggestions here. > What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be > the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the > Security Team. Unfortunately it requires volunteers to constitute such a thing. I've been trying to come up with ideas on how to get more people involved in what we would consider 'maintainence' activities, but I've yet to make an impact. A few people have expressed interest in helping to go through the PR backlog, but the big shortage is committers who are willing to work with them on such unglamorous tasks. (I am working on a proposal to at least make it less frustrating to do so, but I don't want to tie that into this thread.) Having said that, I would join such a team and try to work with it. > PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions > they report do not exist. We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any way to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs contain patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how to set up something where more people can participate. I've tried to flag certain PRs with '(regression)', fwiw, which is necessary but clearly insufficient. > To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to > tracking performance problems or a performance test suite is required. I think that's 2 separate issues. I had not thought much about trying to categorize certain PRs as 'performance' but it really does make sense. I will try to work on this issue. There is actually work on performance tests, but it goes on behind the scenes and is not publicized. (The jump in performance for most workloads on i386-7 is due to the efforts of many individuals who have been relentlessly testing MySQL, Postgres, Bind, and other real-world workloads since the 7 branch was created. Kris, the other respondent in this thread, is one of the people doing a great deal of work on this.) Some of this is documented at http://wiki.freebsd.org/Performance. If there's more specific information that needs to be added there, let me know off-list. There is also the work at http://wiki.freebsd.org/PerformanceTracker, which I do not know the state of. This sounds encouraging. FreeBSD is mostly driven by individual efforts (we are, however, seeing more interest from corporations, some of whom see network performance as a key issue). To some extent it's more "interesting" to do new work than do maintainance work; this is a classical software engineering problem. Again, I'm completely open to suggestions on how to get more people interested in working in this area. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 01:02:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C4816A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:02:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605913C467 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:02:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUE00EJHLJ6IBK0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0A11qp0057558; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:01:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:01:52 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> To: Mark Linimon Message-id: <47856E80.2000101@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:02:02 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mark Linimon wrote: > I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this post and > raise serious issues in a non-confrontational manner. > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:20:13AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: >> Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole >> systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often >> been answered with denial or have simply been ignored. > > The responses on the mailing lists can indeed vary in quality. My > own experience is that many of the key FreeBSD developers respond > fairly well -- when they've got time to do so. Some exceptions > exist. But I don't think any one person is working on amd64 to the > exclusion of i386. Perhaps that is what it would take. > > Other than trying to identify individuals whose responses are doing > more harm than good, I don't have any suggestions here. > >> What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, >> would be the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other >> teams like the Security Team. > > Unfortunately it requires volunteers to constitute such a thing. > I've been trying to come up with ideas on how to get more people > involved in what we would consider 'maintainence' activities, but > I've yet to make an impact. A few people have expressed interest > in helping to go through the PR backlog, but the big shortage is > committers who are willing to work with them on such unglamorous > tasks. (I am working on a proposal to at least make it less > frustrating to do so, but I don't want to tie that into this > thread.) > > Having said that, I would join such a team and try to work with it. > > >> PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the >> regressions they report do not exist. > > We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any > way to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs > contain patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how > to set up something where more people can participate. > > I've tried to flag certain PRs with '(regression)', fwiw, which is > necessary but clearly insufficient. > >> To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide >> to tracking performance problems or a performance test suite is >> required. > > I think that's 2 separate issues. I had not thought much about > trying to categorize certain PRs as 'performance' but it really > does make sense. I will try to work on this issue. > > There is actually work on performance tests, but it goes on behind > the scenes and is not publicized. (The jump in performance for > most workloads on i386-7 is due to the efforts of many individuals > who have been relentlessly testing MySQL, Postgres, Bind, and other > real-world workloads since the 7 branch was created. Kris, the > other respondent in this thread, is one of the people doing a great > deal of work on this.) Some of this is documented at > http://wiki.freebsd.org/Performance. If there's more specific > information that needs to be added there, let me know off-list. > > There is also the work at > http://wiki.freebsd.org/PerformanceTracker, which I do not know the > state of. This sounds encouraging. > > FreeBSD is mostly driven by individual efforts (we are, however, > seeing more interest from corporations, some of whom see network > performance as a key issue). To some extent it's more > "interesting" to do new work than do maintainance work; this is a > classical software engineering problem. Again, I'm completely open > to suggestions on how to get more people interested in working in > this area. > Not to start a flame war but most of the problems listed in their most general form come down to flaws in the development model (or any other FOSS-like model... the main flaw is lack of rewards for working on what is needed vs. what is fun)... I am *NOT* recommending FreeBSD change it's basic model in anyway (even though some good alternatives do exist) I am just saying we should look at how to reward people for doing unglamerious but needed work. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhW6AjRvRjGmHRgQRAqlzAJ9gunLn06b5GLS+gamwzASuSCrp8QCfVnni 8a+XCLEOXfu/QwS00ckftGY= =PzL0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 01:22:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C65016A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:22:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scf@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.farley.org (farley.org [67.64.95.201]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2B313C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:22:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scf@FreeBSD.org) Received: from thor.farley.org (thor.farley.org [192.168.1.5]) by mail.farley.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0A1MZ5F076386 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:22:35 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from scf@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:22:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Sean C. Farley" To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (BSF 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on mail.farley.org Cc: Subject: Errors burning CD-RW's with RELENG_7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:22:40 -0000 I have been having trouble for awhile[1] in successfully burning a CD-RW with RELENG_7 (up to and including today). Even reading CD's can present problems. Here are the messages from the failure: kernel: acd0: FAILURE - SETFEATURES SET TRANSFER MODE status=51 error=40 kernel: acd0: FAILURE - MODE_SELECT_BIG timed out For more information about my system, please check the Asus-specific logs from here[2]. Are there any other bits of information to gather that would help solve this problem? Thank you. Sean 1. http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-November/079419.html 2. http://www.farley.org/freebsd/tmp/SATA/ -- scf@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 02:14:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B26516A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:14:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64FC13C461 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so508694fgg.35 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=KJBQEnyjcaBGYi6IG5SoGVMr6lqXCOjLmbrOekItvVE=; b=hl4k39IdUz0GSyKoa7a3Z8GT97KO1FISgXV++x7abdFw+6EZ1TdIBzZxtZLUg2OV9mYV2QO+8dFA52+ZfAWXQDqszDq7PcJ8wubRfGjmIr09Hbos0JK4sLLRPED1L0cKdvfMtSU3WreTzxyuvFu8vFXbFudb3m8Z4v3zB3QsaPw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hoV3qYHJNSWcE8DiZPDxN1UzJXKLSwZOjc+j2K/5pxwhnnKM1ToZmuAPC9jlyKu3KbhPhbEsjmkTK/uMENL3WF0t1se0eROq0SOEOcEbanfgwRPdD9zGD5Lmndh7feVbJ43uKItatH9FwP/vRGj9Ltju9Epn34JMdOh5DxPYuec= Received: by 10.86.50.8 with SMTP id x8mr1294139fgx.30.1199931297269; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801091814r7ea68ff5t8fdb79e80434e0d8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:14:57 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: Darran In-Reply-To: <000a01c852fc$6aacb9c0$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> <000a01c852fc$6aacb9c0$6501a8c0@Vostro> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:14:59 -0000 On 1/9/08, Darran wrote: > Hi Scot, > > Thanks for your advice, unfortunately it didn't work as I had the 64 bit > driver and it appears that it causes major problems and so I rebuilt it. > Now I have a completely different problem, I have done make buildworld and > it appeared to build ok (this is a fresh install) I edited my > /usr/src/sys/amd64/KERNELCONF and called it MYKERNEL and setup a link from > my root folder, I did make buildkernel from usr/src and it failed with : > > MAKE=make sh /usr/src/sys/conf/newvers.sh GENERIC > cc -c -O2 -frename-registers -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -march=athlon64 > -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes > -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef > -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys > -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include > opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 > --param large-function-growth=1000 -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone > -mfpmath=387 -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -msoft-float > -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -Werror vers.c > linking kernel.debug > uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x3e1): In function `sctp_generic_recvmsg': > /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2600: undefined reference to > `sctp_sorecvmsg' > uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x22ad): In function `sctp_generic_sendmsg_iov': > /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2478: undefined reference to > `sctp_lower_sosend' > uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x2599): In function `sctp_generic_sendmsg': > /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2371: undefined reference to > `sctp_lower_sosend' > uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x271f): In function `sctp_peeloff': > /usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2238: undefined reference to > `sctp_can_peel_off' > uipc_syscalls.o(.text+0x28e4):/usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c:2279: > undefined reference to `sctp_do_peeloff' > rtsock.o(.text+0xc36): In function `rt_newaddrmsg': > /usr/src/sys/net/rtsock.c:897: undefined reference to `sctp_addr_change' > in_proto.o(.data+0x150): undefined reference to `sctp_input' > in_proto.o(.data+0x160): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x168): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x178): undefined reference to `sctp_init' > in_proto.o(.data+0x190): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' > in_proto.o(.data+0x198): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' > in_proto.o(.data+0x1b8): undefined reference to `sctp_input' > in_proto.o(.data+0x1c8): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x1d0): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x1f8): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' > in_proto.o(.data+0x200): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' > in_proto.o(.data+0x220): undefined reference to `sctp_input' > in_proto.o(.data+0x230): undefined reference to `sctp_ctlinput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x238): undefined reference to `sctp_ctloutput' > in_proto.o(.data+0x260): undefined reference to `sctp_drain' > in_proto.o(.data+0x268): undefined reference to `sctp_usrreqs' > *** Error code 1 > > Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MYKERNEL. > *** Error code 1 > > Stop in /usr/src. > *** Error code 1 > > I have some files on my web site that might be needed and I can get any more > if needed : > > FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #1: Tue Jan 8 18:11:41 GMT 2008 > root@:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 > > The full build script is at www.deejc.net/freebsd/kernelbuild > Demsg = www.deejc.net/freebsd/dmesg > Make.conf = www.deejc.net/freebsd/make > Kernel conf - www.deejc.net/freebsd/MYKERNEL options INET # InterNETworking #options INET6 # IPv6 communications protocols options SCTP # Stream Control Transmission Protocol Here is the error in your kernel config file. The SCTP option requires both INET and INET6. Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 07:16:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9519316A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:16:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from hs-out-2122.google.com (hs-out-0708.google.com [64.233.178.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B5313C442 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by hs-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id h53so602317hsh.11 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:16:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=9M5j6PFNCIS+XkE643t2QEq1Ny56Dsw1P7tG0ONJiMU=; b=khWUEhegZhGmwoS1T7KwpVbHTnPJ0RMUVhxA0y8NO8MgGHlwK3up7JcwOKmtEDazYMN6DYACB9vAT7+jGd5bytvRjaXRIw2MXx+U5+dgNQ73Ced/q1skEVDl3Sdce9/YPp6iJuD62lwlCrFfXvwdV5R6MtsGAiYaQu86k+Fg69Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QpQH9Mk8Zyxi1vkg1oRA9xBvP3FI/ypdm44qsViqcxH01zb4Qpk4SSY28SPR67SkOysA02jsDLtu4hKedNGLd+RafOe/eROCa3DtAoxzArstD80eJSXJ2vzR94QriXAwUr9OVp7wv5r6OwTIk7GWHnvk4wNb9e9hLwbom47t+h8= Received: by 10.151.26.12 with SMTP id d12mr640030ybj.45.1199949390419; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.150.12 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:16:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:16:30 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: Darran , freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> Cc: Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:16:32 -0000 On 1/6/08, Darran wrote: > Hello all, > > I downloaded, burnt and installed 7.0-RC1 (all torrent) on amd64 > I downloaded the dell windows drivers for my laptop wireless card (which > worked on i3686 6.2-RELEASE) and used ndisgen to create the .ko file > (bcmwl5_sys.ko) and loaded it and then realised I had created the 32 bit > driver so I re-did it and used the 64 bit file and loaded the 64bit .ko and > at that point my laptop (Dell Vostro 1000) hung. > I had put bcmwl5_sys_load="YES" in the loader.conf file > I rebooted and now I don't get anything. As soon as it starts to boot it > stops. > There is a screen showing kernel dump info and I can copy it if needed but I > have to burn the rescue iso otherwise I cant boot. > > Is this a known problem ? > Does anyone have any advice ? > Which driver did you down load from Dell? I tried Dell's R151519.EXE XP Driver (http://ftp.us.dell.com/network/R151519.EXE) Created bcmwl564_sys.ko module from this windows driver, disabled the HP bcmwl564_sys.ko driver from loading. Rebooted the system, and when I load the Dell bcmwl564)sys.ko driver the following panic occurs: hp010# kgdb -n 11 kernel.debug [GDB will not be able to debug user-mode threads: /usr/lib/libthread_db.so: Undefined symbol "ps_pglobal_lookup"] GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD] Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. Type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. This GDB was configured as "amd64-marcel-freebsd". Ready to go. Enter 'tr' to connect to the remote target with /dev/cuad0, 'tr /dev/cuad1' to connect to a different port or 'trf portno' to connect to the remote target with the firewire interface. portno defaults to 5556. Type 'getsyms' after connection to load kld symbols. If you're debugging a local system, you can use 'kldsyms' instead to load the kld symbols. That's a less obnoxious interface. During symbol reading...location expression too complex... During symbol reading, unsupported tag: 'DW_TAG_const_type'. Unread portion of the kernel message buffer: ndis0: mem 0xc0204000-0xc0205fff irq 21 at device 2.0 on pci6 ndis0: [ITHREAD] ndis0: NDIS API version: 5.1 fpudna in kernel mode! Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held: exclusive sleep mutex HAL preemption lock (HAL lock) r = 0 (0xffffffffd64bff20) locked @ /usr/src/8x/sys-orig/modules/ndis/../../compat/ndis/subr_hal.c:423 KDB: stack backtrace: db_trace_self_wrapper() at db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2a witness_warn() at witness_warn+0x248 trap() at trap+0x25e calltrap() at calltrap+0x8 --- trap 0xc, rip = 0xffffffffd64b4d29, rsp = 0xffffffffd3d86af0, rbp = 0xffffffffd3d86b30 --- KeInsertQueueDpc() at KeInsertQueueDpc+0x69 ntoskrnl_timercall() at ntoskrnl_timercall+0xb3 softclock() at softclock+0x2af ithread_loop() at ithread_loop+0xda fork_exit() at fork_exit+0x12a fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0xe --- trap 0, rip = 0, rsp = 0xffffffffd3d86d30, rbp = 0 --- Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode cpuid = 0; apic id = 00 fault virtual address = 0x0 fault code = supervisor read data, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xffffffffd64b4d29 stack pointer = 0x10:0xffffffffd3d86af0 frame pointer = 0x10:0xffffffffd3d86b30 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, long 1, def32 0, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 12 (swi4: clock sio) panic: from debugger cpuid = 0 Uptime: 1m36s Physical memory: 2035 MB Dumping 161 MB: 146 130 114 98 82 66 50 34 18 2 #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 194 __asm __volatile("movq %%gs:0,%0" : "=r" (td)); (kgdb) kldsyms asf: no kernel modules loaded (kgdb) list *0xffffffffd64b4d29 No source file for address 0xffffffffd64b4d29. (kgdb) bt #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 During symbol reading, Incomplete CFI data; unspecified registers at 0xffffffff802c7e7c. #1 0xffffffff802c83b3 in boot (howto=0x104) at ../../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:417 #2 0xffffffff802c8837 in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available. ) at ../../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:571 #3 0xffffffff80196127 in db_panic (addr=Variable "addr" is not available. ) at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:444 #4 0xffffffff80196a1f in db_command (last_cmdp=0xffffffff806dbd78, cmd_table=0x0, dopager=0x1) at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:411 #5 0xffffffff80196c30 in db_command_loop () at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:464 #6 0xffffffff80198569 in db_trap (type=Variable "type" is not available. ) at ../../../ddb/db_main.c:228 #7 0xffffffff802f1ab5 in kdb_trap (type=0xc, code=0x0, tf=0xffffffffd3d86a40) at ../../../kern/subr_kdb.c:510 #8 0xffffffff804c26bd in trap_fatal (frame=0xffffffffd3d86a40, eva=Variable "eva" is not available. ) at ../../../amd64/amd64/trap.c:718 #9 0xffffffff804c3336 in trap (frame=0xffffffffd3d86a40) at ../../../amd64/amd64/trap.c:250 #10 0xffffffff804a89ae in calltrap () at ../../../amd64/amd64/exception.S:177 #11 0xffffffffd64b4d29 in ?? () #12 0xffffffffd3d86b30 in ?? () #13 0xffffffff839e9828 in ?? () #14 0x00000000000173e7 in ?? () #15 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #16 0x0000000000000016 in ?? () #17 0x0000000000000008 in ?? () #18 0xffffffffd3d86b60 in ?? () #19 0xffffffffd64b6ad3 in ?? () #20 0xffffffffd3d86b60 in ?? () #21 0x0000000000000246 in ?? () #22 0x0000000000000010 in ?? () #23 0xffffffffc0e40310 in ?? () #24 0xffffffffd3d86bc0 in ?? () #25 0xffffffff802da07f in softclock (dummy=Variable "dummy" is not available. ) at ../../../kern/kern_timeout.c:279 Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) (kgdb) quit FreeBSD hp010 8.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Jan 9 23:47:38 CST 2008 swhetzel@hp010:/usr/src/8x/sys/amd64/compile/DV8135NR amd64 hp010# Is this the error that you are getting? Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 07:31:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C1616A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:31:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beech@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd.alaskaparadise.com (freebsd.alaskaparadise.com [208.79.80.117]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6124813C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:31:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beech@freebsd.org) Received: from 137-42-178-69.gci.net (137-42-178-69.gci.net [69.178.42.137]) by freebsd.alaskaparadise.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BE7238338F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:31:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Beech Rintoul To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:31:26 -0900 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> X-Face: jC2w\k*Q1\0DA2Q0Eh&BrP/Rt2M,^2O#R07VoT98m*>miQF9%Bi9vy`F6cPjwEe?m,)=?utf-8?q?2=0A=09X=3FM=5C=3AOE9QgZ?="xT3/n3,3MJ7N=Cfkmi%f(w^~X"SUxn>; 27NO; C+)g[7J`$G*SN>{<=?utf-8?q?O=3Bg7=7C=0A=09o=7D=265A=5D4?=@7D`=Eb@Zs1Ln814?]|k@'bG=.Ca"[|8+_.OsNAo8!#?4u MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801092231.38066.beech@freebsd.org> Cc: Mark Linimon , Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Beech Rintoul List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:31:47 -0000 On Wednesday 09 January 2008, Mark Linimon said: > I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this post and > raise serious issues in a non-confrontational manner. > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:20:13AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > > Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole > > systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often > > been answered with denial or have simply been ignored. > > The responses on the mailing lists can indeed vary in quality. My > own experience is that many of the key FreeBSD developers respond > fairly well -- when they've got time to do so. Some exceptions > exist. But I don't think any one person is working on amd64 to the > exclusion of i386. Perhaps that is what it would take. > > Other than trying to identify individuals whose responses are doing > more harm than good, I don't have any suggestions here. > > > What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, > > would be the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other > > teams like the Security Team. > > Unfortunately it requires volunteers to constitute such a thing. > I've been trying to come up with ideas on how to get more people > involved in what we would consider 'maintainence' activities, but > I've yet to make an impact. A few people have expressed interest > in helping to go through the PR backlog, but the big shortage is > committers who are willing to work with them on such unglamorous > tasks. (I am working on a proposal to at least make it less > frustrating to do so, but I don't want to tie that into this > thread.) > > Having said that, I would join such a team and try to work with it. > > > PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the > > regressions they report do not exist. > > We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any > way to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs > contain patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how > to set up something where more people can participate. > > I've tried to flag certain PRs with '(regression)', fwiw, which is > necessary but clearly insufficient. Why don't we have more bugathons? While they might be a hassle to coordinate, we seem to get a lot accomplished. I can't speak for other committers, but I would be willing to donate time to help with the backlog. Beech -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Beech Rintoul - FreeBSD Developer - beech@FreeBSD.org /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | FreeBSD Since 4.x \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | http://www.freebsd.org X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Latest Release: / \ - http://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/6.2R/announce.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 07:41:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B094916A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:41:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4113C468 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so601832fgg.35 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:41:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=GTScJINW51ChY7HJ/M6vyKZn5lq8lAjk0C9V3sjx+Ns=; b=IWvZE+iP5uRFrcqafltslZHKLoa0aJbAtAnbzcvg9QF3UFElcCMB3svVB3JTr37GzbYzNR5OgjAYA2BCQxQ+f6WdDNP0faQokemjfs1xC3E0NLYuco0Lfs1/81CAHktEfNBrPUO9Rp4W167gVoJQ+AzI9bmh/62UIHklWu+qc/0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=CvLTsQqiO2fW5oEz4LPqREThiLE1o2+JWs/O6IV1HXPNrYEY6fSPRQ9BwTeoyHTPj6O6cwBicTiJ85FAM41j96/b1uCAjwykudNMv2AKHrjvn9+HfzN4AHu9ia+asHJXhKPOuORyWAFAtPBCA6G1DaiCOMeyuGRGTcbmzRWYADQ= Received: by 10.86.71.1 with SMTP id t1mr1544753fga.33.1199950906952; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:41:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801092341y3997a601y72bb2bfbbf09bb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:41:46 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: FreeBSD-Current MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3450_11385919.1199950906927" Subject: kgdb not loading symbols? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:41:48 -0000 ------=_Part_3450_11385919.1199950906927 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I was trying to trace a panic loading a Dell Windows XP driver for the Broadcom Wireless Adapter that had been converted using ndisgen. I had rebuilt my kernel using: cd /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf config DV8135NR cd ../compile/DV8135NR make cleandepend && make depend make make gdbinit make install After rebooting, I loaded the Dell bcmwl564_sys.ko driver, and it paniced. I then had it save the panic to the swap partition and rebooted. After it booted and saved the core I ran: cd /usr/src/sys/amd64/compile/DV8135NR kgdb -n 11 kernel.debug : (kgdb) kldsyms (kgdb) When I had done this on 7.0-CURRENT a while back, I would see kgdb loading the symbol files, but when I used kldsyms today it didn't display them. Is loading symbols broken on 8.0-CURRENT or do we no longer display the loading of the symbol files? If you want to see the full kgdb output, see my post to the "Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1" thread on this list. 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Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78CD13C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADF717104; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0A8PsvR088855; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:54 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dominic Fandrey From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:20:13 +0100." <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:54 +0000 Message-ID: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:57 -0000 In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey writes: >The first problem is [...] No. The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not financially support enough full-time developers. That is also problem number 2, 3, 4 and probably up to around 10. There is no ill will in the FreeBSD developer community, if we could do it better, we would. But the majority of us, spend our time doing other stuff for a living, and as long as that is the case, FreeBSD plays second fiddle. Find a way to fix that, and there is no place FreeBSD couldn't go. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 08:34:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4927F16A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (smtp-out-50.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E170613C455 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from Postfix filter 42a77884ce2a0a03efc6bb50a6dcdb20 (smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CAD9271A9D for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from webmail.deejc.net (mail213-171-216-230.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.230]) by smtp-out-56.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id CC804271A05; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:01 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: livemail.co.uk Webmail Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0801091814r7ea68ff5t8fdb79e80434e0d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> <000a01c852fc$6aacb9c0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801091814r7ea68ff5t8fdb79e80434e0d8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:01 +0000 From: "Darran" To: "Scot Hetzel" , "Darran" X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:34:04 -0000 "Scot Hetzel" wrote: > options INET # InterNETworking > #options INET6 # IPv6 communications protocols > options SCTP # Stream Control Transmission Protocol > Here is the error in your kernel config file. The SCTP option > requires both INET and INET6. > Scot Thanks very much again Scot, i rebuilt it this morning including the INET6 option and it worked. Darran http://www.deejc.net From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 08:39:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7C616A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:39:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A2D13C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:39:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00KAH6Q56ST0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0A8ddlR049869; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:39 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:39:43 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey writes: > >> The first problem is [...] > > No. > > The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not financially > support enough full-time developers. There are some possible solutions to the lack of funding without having to ask corps for huge donations (they would actually improve the amount of contributed work also in all likellyhood.... see my blog http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php) > > That is also problem number 2, 3, 4 and probably up to around 10. > > There is no ill will in the FreeBSD developer community, if we could > do it better, we would. > > But the majority of us, spend our time doing other stuff for a living, > and as long as that is the case, FreeBSD plays second fiddle. > > Find a way to fix that, and there is no place FreeBSD couldn't go. > > Poul-Henning > - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhdnLjRvRjGmHRgQRAoIOAJ9GaIicmuZVrmSSbpN5wYxIzq6R8wCfdgrQ GcXteNS0qyiKCg7cCD/8yng= =YoXP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 08:55:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E3716A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp-out-68.livemail.co.uk (smtp-out-68.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3C413C465 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from webmail.deejc.net (mail213-171-216-230.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.230]) by smtp-out-68.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id D5EF645EF21; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:54 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: livemail.co.uk Webmail Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0801091814r7ea68ff5t8fdb79e80434e0d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801061034x79c6eec0sc6220247b3cb76fd@mail.gmail.com> <000a01c852fc$6aacb9c0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801091814r7ea68ff5t8fdb79e80434e0d8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:54 +0000 From: "Darran" To: "Scot Hetzel" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:56 -0000 "Scot Hetzel" wrote: > > options INET # InterNETworking > #options INET6 # IPv6 communications protocols > options SCTP # Stream Control Transmission Protocol > > Here is the error in your kernel config file. The SCTP option > requires both INET and INET6. > > Scot > Scot, I forgot to add that i checked the handbook (http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-config.html) before i edited my config and i did not see an entry relating to SCTP and its dependants. Is this something missing on purpose (ie: it MUST stay in all configs) or is it a new addition to the config ? thanks again Darran http://www.deejc.net From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 09:17:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E8616A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp-out-57.livemail.co.uk (smtp-out-60.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.60]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9461A13C461 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from Postfix filter 42a77884ce2a0a03efc6bb50a6dcdb20 (smtp-out-57.livemail.co.uk [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-57.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9598320786D for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from webmail.deejc.net (mail213-171-216-230.livemail.co.uk [213.171.216.230]) by smtp-out-57.livemail.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 74FA420786D; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:44 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: livemail.co.uk Webmail Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:44 +0000 From: "Darran" To: "Scot Hetzel" , X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:17:47 -0000 "Scot Hetzel" wrote: > On 1/6/08, Darran wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I downloaded, burnt and installed 7.0-RC1 (all torrent) on amd64 > > I downloaded the dell windows drivers for my laptop wireless card (which > > worked on i3686 6.2-RELEASE) and used ndisgen to create the .ko file > > (bcmwl5_sys.ko) and loaded it and then realised I had created the 32 bit > > driver so I re-did it and used the 64 bit file and loaded the 64bit .ko and > > at that point my laptop (Dell Vostro 1000) hung. > > I had put bcmwl5_sys_load="YES" in the loader.conf file > > I rebooted and now I don't get anything. As soon as it starts to boot it > > stops. > > There is a screen showing kernel dump info and I can copy it if needed but I > > have to burn the rescue iso otherwise I cant boot. > > > > Is this a known problem ? > > Does anyone have any advice ? > > > Which driver did you down load from Dell? > > I tried Dell's R151519.EXE XP Driver > (http://ftp.us.dell.com/network/R151519.EXE) > > Created bcmwl564_sys.ko module from this windows driver, disabled the > HP bcmwl564_sys.ko driver from loading. Rebooted the system, and when > I load the Dell bcmwl564)sys.ko driver the following panic occurs: > > hp010# kgdb -n 11 kernel.debug > > [GDB will not be able to debug user-mode threads: > /usr/lib/libthread_db.so: Undefined symbol "ps_pglobal_lookup"] > GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD] > Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. > GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are > welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. > Type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. > This GDB was configured as "amd64-marcel-freebsd". > Ready to go. Enter 'tr' to connect to the remote target > with /dev/cuad0, 'tr /dev/cuad1' to connect to a different port > or 'trf portno' to connect to the remote target with the firewire > interface. portno defaults to 5556. > > Type 'getsyms' after connection to load kld symbols. > > If you're debugging a local system, you can use 'kldsyms' instead > to load the kld symbols. That's a less obnoxious interface. > During symbol reading...location expression too complex... > During symbol reading, unsupported tag: 'DW_TAG_const_type'. > > Unread portion of the kernel message buffer: > ndis0: mem > 0xc0204000-0xc0205fff irq 21 at device 2.0 on pci6 > ndis0: [ITHREAD] > ndis0: NDIS API version: 5.1 > fpudna in kernel mode! > Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held: > exclusive sleep mutex HAL preemption lock (HAL lock) r = 0 > (0xffffffffd64bff20) locked @ > /usr/src/8x/sys-orig/modules/ndis/../../compat/ndis/subr_hal.c:423 > KDB: stack backtrace: > db_trace_self_wrapper() at db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2a > witness_warn() at witness_warn+0x248 > trap() at trap+0x25e > calltrap() at calltrap+0x8 > --- trap 0xc, rip = 0xffffffffd64b4d29, rsp = 0xffffffffd3d86af0, rbp > = 0xffffffffd3d86b30 --- > KeInsertQueueDpc() at KeInsertQueueDpc+0x69 > ntoskrnl_timercall() at ntoskrnl_timercall+0xb3 > softclock() at softclock+0x2af > ithread_loop() at ithread_loop+0xda > fork_exit() at fork_exit+0x12a > fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0xe > --- trap 0, rip = 0, rsp = 0xffffffffd3d86d30, rbp = 0 --- > > > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > cpuid = 0; apic id = 00 > fault virtual address = 0x0 > fault code = supervisor read data, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xffffffffd64b4d29 > stack pointer = 0x10:0xffffffffd3d86af0 > frame pointer = 0x10:0xffffffffd3d86b30 > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > = DPL 0, pres 1, long 1, def32 0, gran 1 > processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > current process = 12 (swi4: clock sio) > panic: from debugger > cpuid = 0 > Uptime: 1m36s > Physical memory: 2035 MB > Dumping 161 MB: 146 130 114 98 82 66 50 34 18 2 > > #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 > 194 __asm __volatile("movq %%gs:0,%0" : "=r" (td)); > (kgdb) kldsyms > asf: no kernel modules loaded > (kgdb) list *0xffffffffd64b4d29 > No source file for address 0xffffffffd64b4d29. > (kgdb) bt > #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 > During symbol reading, Incomplete CFI data; unspecified registers at > 0xffffffff802c7e7c. > #1 0xffffffff802c83b3 in boot (howto=0x104) at > ../../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:417 > #2 0xffffffff802c8837 in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available. > ) at ../../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:571 > #3 0xffffffff80196127 in db_panic (addr=Variable "addr" is not available. > ) at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:444 > #4 0xffffffff80196a1f in db_command (last_cmdp=0xffffffff806dbd78, > cmd_table=0x0, dopager=0x1) > at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:411 > #5 0xffffffff80196c30 in db_command_loop () at ../../../ddb/db_command.c:464 > #6 0xffffffff80198569 in db_trap (type=Variable "type" is not available. > ) at ../../../ddb/db_main.c:228 > #7 0xffffffff802f1ab5 in kdb_trap (type=0xc, code=0x0, > tf=0xffffffffd3d86a40) at ../../../kern/subr_kdb.c:510 > #8 0xffffffff804c26bd in trap_fatal (frame=0xffffffffd3d86a40, > eva=Variable "eva" is not available. > ) at ../../../amd64/amd64/trap.c:718 > #9 0xffffffff804c3336 in trap (frame=0xffffffffd3d86a40) at > ../../../amd64/amd64/trap.c:250 > #10 0xffffffff804a89ae in calltrap () at ../../../amd64/amd64/exception.S:177 > #11 0xffffffffd64b4d29 in ?? () > #12 0xffffffffd3d86b30 in ?? () > #13 0xffffffff839e9828 in ?? () > #14 0x00000000000173e7 in ?? () > #15 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () > #16 0x0000000000000016 in ?? () > #17 0x0000000000000008 in ?? () > #18 0xffffffffd3d86b60 in ?? () > #19 0xffffffffd64b6ad3 in ?? () > #20 0xffffffffd3d86b60 in ?? () > #21 0x0000000000000246 in ?? () > #22 0x0000000000000010 in ?? () > #23 0xffffffffc0e40310 in ?? () > #24 0xffffffffd3d86bc0 in ?? () > #25 0xffffffff802da07f in softclock (dummy=Variable "dummy" is not available. > ) at ../../../kern/kern_timeout.c:279 > Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) > (kgdb) quit > > FreeBSD hp010 8.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Jan 9 23:47:38 > CST 2008 swhetzel@hp010:/usr/src/8x/sys/amd64/compile/DV8135NR > amd64 > hp010# > > Is this the error that you are getting? > > > Scot > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Hi Scott, This is almost exactly the same as i am getting, I will follow your instructions later about the debug but i did use the same driver and it panics with the same sort of message. i think mine might be a dell 1390 card i cant be certain but its almost the same error Darran http://www.deejc.net From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 09:29:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E4D16A481; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:29:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7B213C458; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:29:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from 5aca3c8f.bb.sky.com ([90.202.60.143] helo=access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.275) id 4785dc2e.11fac.122; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:49:50 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (steerpike [192.168.1.10]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0A8noqN073744; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:49:50 GMT (envelope-from aw1@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: from steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0A8novo060736; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:49:50 GMT (envelope-from aw1@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0A8nnJj060735; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:49:49 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:49:49 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20080110084949.GA60476@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org References: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE Organization: Oh dear, I've joined one again. X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5465/Thu Jan 10 08:16:16 2008 on access2.hanley.stade.co.uk X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/5465/Thu Jan 10 08:16:16 2008 on steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A quick and dirty lpt patch.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:29:35 -0000 On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 07:39:42PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > Hack patch is at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ppbus_intr.patch and > inline below. I know it compiles, but I haven't runtested it. :) I've compiled a kernel with the patch, installed the kernel, rebooted with a power cycle, and printed without a panic, so it seems to work for me. Do still get this in /var/log/messages which might be annoying for those who print a lot: Jan 10 08:23:18 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [GIANT-LOCKED] Jan 10 08:23:18 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [ITHREAD] Jan 10 08:23:19 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [GIANT-LOCKED] Jan 10 08:23:19 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [ITHREAD] Thanks! Presumably this needs more testing before it hits RELENG7? -- Adrian Wontroba We have nowhere else to go... this is all we have. -- Margaret Mead From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 09:43:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E31B16A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:43:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113D113C4EA for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:43:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00A7A9NQO5T0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0A9guv6058783; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:42:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:42:56 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:43:07 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey >> writes: > >>> The first problem is [...] >> No. > >> The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not >> financially support enough full-time developers. > > There are some possible solutions to the lack of funding without > having to ask corps for huge donations (they would actually improve > the amount of contributed work also in all likellyhood.... see my > blog > http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php) > Forgot to mention that the approach outline is fairly compatible with the BSD style of doing stuff (one of the other people involved with the effort is actually drafting a BSD style license that is 100% compatible with the current one (Free)BSD license)... see devel/thistest (the only reason for no binary distribution is I require explicit acceptance of the license terms... besides syncing the distfiles with the current version is easier this way) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHheigjRvRjGmHRgQRAnXiAJ9p9+vbX1T4ECvq4vQRvBAJ3uy9QwCfWOXJ UlEe2tcs/J6VztJYk6/i0lY= =75ky -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 10:04:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF1B16A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:04:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D585013C467 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:04:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8602089; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:04:04 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005E12049; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:04:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D043E8449F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:04:00 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Peter Schuller References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <86tzlonozc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801091922.56670.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:04:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801091922.56670.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> (Peter Schuller's message of "Wed\, 9 Jan 2008 19\:22\:47 +0100") Message-ID: <863at6j8tr.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Andrew Reilly , Peter Jeremy , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky , Kostik Belousov Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:04:13 -0000 Peter Schuller writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Actually, malloc(3) can use madvise(2) to notify the kernel that > > arbitrary pages in the arena are unused and can be discarded. The > > current implementation will do so if the H option is specified. > However, in this context it will likely only help partially since you sti= ll > need a full page to be free (and with a lot of programs many allocations = will > be significantly smaller than that, and I have to assume no real-life mal= loc > will align all allocations to pages, or the overhead would be extreme). Page-aligning every allocation would be supremely stupid, and jemalloc does so only for allocations larger than a page. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 11:28:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9DA16A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:28:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5A713C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:28:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00ABTEJYO5U0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ABSjvt058919; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:28:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:28:45 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> To: Wilko Bulte Message-id: <4786016D.4000200@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:28:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wilko Bulte wrote: > Quoting Aryeh M. Friedman, who wrote on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at > 04:42:56AM -0500 .. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >>> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey >>>> writes: >>>>> The first problem is [...] >>>> No. The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not >>>> financially support enough full-time developers. >>> There are some possible solutions to the lack of funding >>> without having to ask corps for huge donations (they would >>> actually improve the amount of contributed work also in all >>> likellyhood.... see my blog >>> http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php) >>> >>> >> Forgot to mention that the approach outline is fairly compatible >> with the BSD style of doing stuff (one of the other people >> involved with the effort is actually drafting a BSD style license >> that is 100% compatible with the current one (Free)BSD >> license)... see > > We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong > with the standard BSD license please? It makes funding unpleasent but needed projects more difficult then it needs to be (I am not an expert on the exact goals but adding one single sentence to the current license would suffice to repair the primary causes) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhgFtjRvRjGmHRgQRAi1pAJ9z54ZFtZRNEoR+ULmSa+RR3h5iFwCgpwzN kR9IDinpbgsHiGkNBJartHU= =IsrX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 11:39:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8B216A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B3813C45B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cptsalek@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so684477fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=EZtAZXaXZGjgy0JAmSmJx4jcWjLpM6aAPOomy+6o6SI=; b=x7pJ3ilo4IymQQRUwkP9zvMyKUEdi6QqBPtYY1VnGy2SayJaX964ZmhLBvTs1QdJSzf4EXaeLh0zzXGlraHXdz70LWflgcAMcQSlDaWbE1gVFvEsf3TRy90aTNPwvgpfBn2VsiHpk8AhsXo+jC6uTHwmIq/PJ/1eakN1rHKsmCw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Du34axJBwUSypR7J0fmOTESuleoJizT2IlkbF3w4a/WT7FWqzgGKfaLNcrl+uw/y055L07SxmRqET+QDLJCUu88rEpmj3y2maZ4pGw1g0VcYLV2T8IRze92Hcs1RPgEldWvY03dzFeoyz2Dz9gIhUkTehzYFKJtb56pQy1u5Kz0= Received: by 10.82.157.6 with SMTP id f6mr3010464bue.1.1199965147451; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.159.19 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:39:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <14989d6e0801100339h77ab16edi7129b6a854a02154@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:39:07 +0100 From: "Christian Walther" To: "Bruno Damour" In-Reply-To: <47854784.2080109@ruomad.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47854784.2080109@ruomad.net> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: zpool cannot be imported into opensolaris X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:39:09 -0000 Hi On 09/01/2008, Bruno Damour wrote: > Hello, > I have setup zfs (even for root) in freebsd-current. > I'm dual-booting with opensolaris (b79, self-built) but the pools cannot > be imported : > > vil1 ~ # zpool import > pool: data > id: 14539542783958606623 > state: UNAVAIL > status: The pool was last accessed by another system. > action: The pool cannot be imported due to damaged devices or data. > see: http://www.sun.com/msg/ZFS-8000-EY > config: > > data UNAVAIL insufficient replicas > mirror UNAVAIL corrupted data > c1d1s2 ONLINE > c2d1s2 ONLINE > > Of course the pool is allright in freebsd, and hum, yes, I did export > the pool allright. > > Any ideas ? I that the expected behaviour ? I understand zfs is version > 9 in Opensolaris, while the freebsd is still version 6. Did you follow the recommendation mentioned in the documentation above? From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 11:46:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3213116A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:46:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F6013C461 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:46:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00KEAFDD5JT0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ABkND3058970; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> To: Wilko Bulte Message-id: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:46:27 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wilko Bulte wrote: > Quoting Aryeh M. Friedman, who wrote on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at > 04:42:56AM -0500 .. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >>> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey >>>> writes: >>>>> The first problem is [...] >>>> No. The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not >>>> financially support enough full-time developers. >>> There are some possible solutions to the lack of funding >>> without having to ask corps for huge donations (they would >>> actually improve the amount of contributed work also in all >>> likellyhood.... see my blog >>> http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php) >>> >>> >> Forgot to mention that the approach outline is fairly compatible >> with the BSD style of doing stuff (one of the other people >> involved with the effort is actually drafting a BSD style license >> that is 100% compatible with the current one (Free)BSD >> license)... see > > We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong > with the standard BSD license please? I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first being a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect of thinking that open source by definition means free use of the products. Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as far I can tell that does not automatically and should not translate into not having some responibility to the community that created the project in the first place.... my approach (along with 3 other small software vendors) is to have a requirement to contribute back to the community in some form (in work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free software but not free beer. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhgWPjRvRjGmHRgQRAuRVAJwI3RaUy8LhCxHVhaj6459KC6xNYwCgiGFb 8WccYzwJrPOzcKIiALsbjpU= =+mvU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 12:00:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EB116A469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0212713C4F5 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so691723fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:00:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=1HOdAaTrPzF4MMO0m/rnDlF9di0zGCfpYoALhU9Y64I=; b=GWaFn3Frtf+X475MyVVDuhHENdoyjOz6Uh0v0PGB/my0xXY9XGSSXh1wcmYmloteejsajzvI+zhJb3lbm7VGheGQNveRcpP5iXd6YkGbKT8gWrJMygxQfpI8TY++eKGroMr90HQsQ1n2PmxBhxGxUpHM55Y/m8Oi1/6mz/R/n3k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=wpixrPtjOaNfyLv+qcoQx90OW4o28dOwqdVb+0wVPZWxA3qcOCdGnxR3/m4gu64+G6bQPhcfsLCY0K0VNBN9K/Q8h//BrTeCk3pHE6isGwXDwbrLZJXj6qQp+NgtbKL21HWw2EJ5e0pJkucv9oQT4XKoGsWpUhZ95RtTG26kRNo= Received: by 10.82.177.3 with SMTP id z3mr2986631bue.35.1199966440571; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11sm894740gve.15.2008.01.10.04.00.38 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-0i+P5egbCyP+F1fMfiEg" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:37 +0000 Message-Id: <1199966437.1545.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Subject: Regular bge watchdog timeouts on 7.0-PRERELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:43 -0000 --=-0i+P5egbCyP+F1fMfiEg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-Mc1cTd9lZR4SFm8pF4OE" --=-Mc1cTd9lZR4SFm8pF4OE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [should 7.0 questions be going to -current or -stable?] Hi list FreeBSD zoot.mintel.co.uk 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #1: Mon Jan 7 15:47:37 GMT 2008 root@zoot.mintel.co.uk:/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/obj/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/s= rc/sys/ZOOT i386 Source was checked out with tag RELENG_7 on 3/1/2008 . I can rebuild if needed. I am encountering regular watchdog timeouts on bge: Jan 9 08:36:11 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting Jan 9 08:36:11 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN Jan 9 08:36:13 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP Jan 9 08:40:04 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting Jan 9 08:40:04 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN Jan 9 08:40:05 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP Jan 9 10:18:46 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting Jan 9 10:18:46 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN Jan 9 10:18:48 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP Jan 9 10:30:17 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting Jan 9 10:30:17 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN Jan 9 10:30:19 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP Jan 9 14:04:45 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting Jan 9 14:04:45 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN Jan 9 14:04:47 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP I only started receiving these timeouts after exporting an NFS share to a Linux NFS client. The timeouts do not occur instantly when the Linux client accesses the share (which it does almost constantly - the share is a media store, and the client is the media player), it will work well for a while and then die. I've heard from a colleague that FreeBSD NFS and Linux NFS don't mix well - is this apocryphal or is this expected behaviour?=20 I've attached dmesg.boot, kernel config and rc.conf if any of those help. Apart from this problem, by the way, I've found -CURRENT -> RELENG_7 very stable and responsive on this dual-core laptop, with no major flaws or problems - looking forward to release :) Thanks in advance Tom --=-Mc1cTd9lZR4SFm8pF4OE Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ZOOT.txt Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; name=ZOOT.txt; charset=UTF-8 aW5jbHVkZSAgICAgICAgIEdFTkVSSUMNCmlkZW50ICAgICAgICAgICBaT09UDQptYWNoaW5lICAg ICAgICAgaTM4Ng0Kbm9jcHUgICAgICAgICAgIEk0ODZfQ1BVDQpub2NwdSAgICAgICAgICAgSTU4 Nl9DUFUNCg0Kb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICAgIFNDX1BJWEVMX01PREUNCm9wdGlvbnMgICAgICAgICBT Q19ISVNUT1JZX1NJWkU9MTAwMA0Kb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICAgIFZFU0ENCm9wdGlvbnMgICAgICAg ICBTTVANCg0KZGV2aWNlICAgICAgICAgIGNyeXB0bw0Kb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICAgIEdFT01fRUxJ DQoNCm5vb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICBJTlZBUklBTlRTDQpub29wdGlvbnMgICAgICAgSU5WQVJJQU5U X1NVUFBPUlQNCm5vb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICBXSVRORVNTDQpub29wdGlvbnMgICAgICAgV0lUTkVT U19TS0lQU0NBTg0Kb3B0aW9ucyAgICAgICAgIEFMVF9CUkVBS19UT19ERUJVR0dFUg0KDQpkZXZp 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Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhgjglcRvFfyds/cRAvjBAKC4YIYVrhTs48Q8wwbdVNbMbWQ57QCgmzZe 6+nZ3qvsdjVqtNGXJjq/Syw= =aJcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-0i+P5egbCyP+F1fMfiEg-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 12:07:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC61316A46C for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:07:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from crivens.kernel32.de (crivens.terrorteam.de [81.169.171.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B1113C455 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:07:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from www.terrorteam.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crivens.kernel32.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA30B023F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:07:32 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:07:32 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer To: Aryeh M. Friedman In-Reply-To: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> References: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42af13c0754be09eaa392751df755d02@localhost> X-Sender: mh@kernel32.de User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:07:34 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500, "Aryeh M. Friedman" wrote: > I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... > > One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing > cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first being > a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect of thinking > that open source by definition means free use of the products. Yes > the source should be avaible to everyone but as far I can tell that > does not automatically and should not translate into not having some > responibility to the community that created the project in the first > place.... my approach (along with 3 other small software vendors) is > to have a requirement to contribute back to the community in some form > (in work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free > software but not free beer. > Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to start another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it on freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. This really has nothing to do with the thread itself and with this mailing list in special. Thanks. ./Marian From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 12:08:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5218916A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97F713C45B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6497717104; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AC8Qfa089917; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:26 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 EST." <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:26 +0000 Message-ID: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:08:29 -0000 In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong >> with the standard BSD license please? > >I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... I am fully with Wilko here. We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat our users over the head. We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent human beings. A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD developers employed at companies which understand that developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. We just need more of that. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 07:58:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C9016A417; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:58:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC28613C442; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:58:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A8D108C11E; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:58:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:58:36 -0600 To: Beech Rintoul Message-ID: <20080110075836.GA7944@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801092231.38066.beech@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801092231.38066.beech@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:22:02 +0000 Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:58:37 -0000 On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 10:31:26PM -0900, Beech Rintoul wrote: > Why don't we have more bugathons? I thought about that after posting the above. I can't do it this weekend, but next weekend would work. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 11:16:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CA116A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:16:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC5013C46B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:16:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [82.95.250.254]) by smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AB0rYA071487; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0AB0rmq010203; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.6/Submit) id m0AB0qlN010202; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:52 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:22:56 +0000 Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:16:47 -0000 Quoting Aryeh M. Friedman, who wrote on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 04:42:56AM -0500 .. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey > >> writes: > > > >>> The first problem is [...] > >> No. > > > >> The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not > >> financially support enough full-time developers. > > > > There are some possible solutions to the lack of funding without > > having to ask corps for huge donations (they would actually improve > > the amount of contributed work also in all likellyhood.... see my > > blog > > http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php) > > > Forgot to mention that the approach outline is fairly compatible with > the BSD style of doing stuff (one of the other people involved with > the effort is actually drafting a BSD style license that is 100% > compatible with the current one (Free)BSD license)... see We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong with the standard BSD license please? Wilko -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 12:49:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF116A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:49:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBBE13C468 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:49:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00KX3IAXBHW0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:49:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ACng2W059048; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:49:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:49:42 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <42af13c0754be09eaa392751df755d02@localhost> To: Marian Hettwer Message-id: <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <42af13c0754be09eaa392751df755d02@localhost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:49:52 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marian Hettwer wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > wrote: >> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... >> >> One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing >> cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first >> being a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect >> of thinking that open source by definition means free use of the >> products. Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as >> far I can tell that does not automatically and should not >> translate into not having some responibility to the community >> that created the project in the first place.... my approach >> (along with 3 other small software vendors) is to have a >> requirement to contribute back to the community in some form (in >> work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free >> software but not free beer. >> > Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to start > another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it on > freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. a) I didn't start the thread and was keeping my comments to a min. b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one reads seriously it) > This really has nothing to do with the thread itself and with this > mailing list in special. As two your second point see item b above. As to the first point the OP was complaining about very nebulous (but important) issues which I feel are symptomatic the larger issues I pointed out; thus even though it is not 100% on the actual complaints it is still an attempt to look at correcting them. - From previous experiences (both mine of others) the FreeBSD community tends to be way too conservative (yes it is good to be conservative but to the level we do it is pathological in some respects). For example I think it is clear that some work needs to be done to improve the ports system and I stepped up to volunteer to do most of the heavy lifting (with two others helping) and on -ports@ got never ending grief from people who thought that if it is not completely broke don't fix it. BTW when I was referring to other peoples experiences, one of my former bosses was one of the people who worked very hard to bring 386bsd to the masses (not Bill) and they turned me onto FreeBSD in the mid-90's... they no longer use any BSD because it was unable to keep pace with linux in areas they considered critical. I happen to be situated (extremely luckily given my general econ condition) to be able to volunteer with the ports 2.0 effort (it serves some of the long term goals of my company in ways that leave me with being more comfortable with giving away some free beer). This is not the case for some people and corporate support rarely helps recruit/retain such people (the reason is out of the scope of this thread). In short I am not saying there is anything wrong with the current model just that it can be improved and my experience with ports 2.0 has convienced me that a certain segment of the community is just too closed minded to even consider anything that is not already done. > > Thanks. > To avoid this a list to discuss the business/legal aspects of FreeBSD would be a good thing. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhhRmjRvRjGmHRgQRApxQAKCSy9fUkFOoBdZEAULX4A4L4b+GbQCdHYAo fBqDi5GC4TYqsi4VVl2F20o= =kHKH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:00:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5A016A421 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC4E13C4D1 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00EOWITJJVU0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AD0rtw059064; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:00:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:00:53 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:00:56 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > writes: > >>> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is >>> wrong with the standard BSD license please? >> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... > > I am fully with Wilko here. > > We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat > our users over the head. > > We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent > human beings. > > A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD > developers employed at companies which understand that developer > support is key to FreeBSDs future. > > We just need more of that. We also need to have better avenues for people who want to contribute but do not have the economic means to subsidize there work from some large company, gov. agency and/or university... i.e. there is no room for independent people to contribute on a full time basis... As I said in an other message this is not about saying the current has anything wrong with it, just that it can be improved. Volunteer efforts are great and I fully support them (such as my work on ports 2.0) but the larger they grow the harder it gets to do it all volunteer (every large non-profit has paid full-time employees after all)... to paraphrase an other organization I am involved in we should "be completely self supporting through our own ....contributions"... this includes more then just service it includes supporting those who do such service... BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd license it would be something as simple as: "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at http://......". The "(if any)" wording is important because the licensor (FreeBSD) can elect to charge nothing but require work in kind for example. The actual amount of the fee and or works can be very small for such a large project like FreeBSD (less then $5/year) to make it 100% self supporting [no donations needed]. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhhcFjRvRjGmHRgQRAmo7AJwJpL3zDSX4F0wl4pGUeISVAfrT9gCeKnhj BuPOHmDX2/rZg/a+cAu2jjU= =uUsV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:10:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEAA16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B1013C474 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AB917104; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ADAKim090134; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:20 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:00:53 EST." <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:20 +0000 Message-ID: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:23 -0000 In message <47861705.2030609@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD >> developers employed at companies which understand that developer >> support is key to FreeBSDs future. >> >> We just need more of that. > >We also need to have better avenues for people who want to contribute >but do not have the economic means to subsidize there work from some >large company, gov. agency and/or university... i.e. there is no room >for independent people to contribute on a full time basis... We have never required anybody to have employment to participate in FreeBSD: If you're able and willing, you're welcome. >BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd >license it would be something as simple as: > > "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to >payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at >http://......". No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:15:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09C216A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from crivens.kernel32.de (crivens.terrorteam.de [81.169.171.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BE613C467 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:15:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from www.terrorteam.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crivens.kernel32.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5473B023F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:15:22 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:15:22 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <017e365e6d6cbbfe9c2fa2c769578239@localhost> X-Sender: mh@kernel32.de User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:15:24 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:10:20 +0000, "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >>BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd >>license it would be something as simple as: >> >> "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to >>payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at >>http://......". > > No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! > Agreed! However, this is really off-topic. I'll take a short-cut and apply Godwins Law by writing: Hitler! Usually as soon as Godwins Law kicked in a thread is dead and finally over. Is it over? Pleeease. Over? :) ./Marian From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:17:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3E016A420 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3B413C46A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00K97JLMAVX0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ADHjTW059171; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:17:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:17:45 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:17:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <47861705.2030609@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > writes: > >>> A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD >>> developers employed at companies which understand that >>> developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. >>> >>> We just need more of that. >> We also need to have better avenues for people who want to >> contribute but do not have the economic means to subsidize there >> work from some large company, gov. agency and/or university... >> i.e. there is no room for independent people to contribute on a >> full time basis... > > We have never required anybody to have employment to participate in > FreeBSD: If you're able and willing, you're welcome. Able is the key point here... ableness is more then just the skill needed it is having enough resources that you will not starve by doing so... I suspect if an honest survey was done of people who do not currently contribute you would find many of them would if they had the time/resources to do so (as I said in the blog I have contributed to many open source projects but also attempting to make a living by running a small software company is not very compatible with that goal unless some middle ground is found) > >> BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd >> license it would be something as simple as: >> >> "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to >> payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at >> http://......". > > No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! Which part of "(if any)" is not clear... i.e. the licensor is completely free to waive the requirment (i.e. identical to the current license) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhhr5jRvRjGmHRgQRAovFAJ9O9Z3vKLGXzLcye225aK0TlzoBxQCfbdTl vxM/5Z68F/onTrtJ1z3hRd0= =J9aA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:25:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E3816A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:25:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7788A13C459 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:25:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00EGTJYLMOW0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ADPXiR059188; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:25:33 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <200801101308.m0AD8hU1056185@lurza.secnetix.de> To: Oliver Fromme Message-id: <47861CCD.7010707@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <200801101308.m0AD8hU1056185@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, mh@kernel32.de Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:25:34 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Oliver Fromme wrote: > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >> Marian Hettwer wrote: >>> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >>>> One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues >>>> doing cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. >>>> [...] Yes the source should be avaible to everyone > > No, not necessarily. In particular, the BSD license does not > enforce availability of the source to everyone, and it does not > enforce anything else, except that the license may not be removed. > > That's not accidental, it's not a flaw, it doesn't need repair. > It's intended. And trying to discuss to "repair" that is > completely futile. Just a side question... if it is so complete why was there a need to modify the orginal UCB version?... specifically there is no reason not to discuss improvements. > >>>> [...] my approach (along with 3 other small software vendors) >>>> is to have a requirement to contribute back to the community >>>> in some form (in work or help support those doing the work), >>>> namely it is free software but not free beer. >>> >>> Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to >>> start another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it >>> on freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. >> >> a) I didn't start the thread and was keeping my comments to a >> min. > > You didn't start the thread, but you started abusing it by driving > it into the licensing direction. If the root cause of the OP's issues is lack of interest in older code and this is caused because it doesn't pay interms of ones rep in the community (new things get you this not making old things work better) and the lack of this reward is because of the difficultly of combining money and FOSS then it is a) a valid topic and b) a licensing issue because the only way to "repair" the situation is to slightly modify the license (the honor system is what got us here in the first place) > >> b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a >> flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one >> reads seriously it) > > That's wrong. The chat list is being used for things that are > off-topic on the other lists. Sometimes there are "flames" indeed, > but that's a minority. I subscribe to it and have yet to see anything more then a 50/50 split between real chat (and that is really not approriate for this discussions a list for the legal/business aspects of freebsd would be) and flames - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhhzMjRvRjGmHRgQRAtgUAKCH/Gf/Ds9NJRqwOdyXGuqDHrGtfwCfQPW1 su87W11tBpfqgnL877AhE5A= =e/lS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:08:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7106316A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:08:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88B213C4E8 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:08:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AD8jES056186; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0AD8hU1056185; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:43 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801101308.m0AD8hU1056185@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com, mh@kernel32.de In-Reply-To: <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:48 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:30:28 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:08:50 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Marian Hettwer wrote: > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > > One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing > > > cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. [...] > > > Yes the source should be avaible to everyone No, not necessarily. In particular, the BSD license does not enforce availability of the source to everyone, and it does not enforce anything else, except that the license may not be removed. That's not accidental, it's not a flaw, it doesn't need repair. It's intended. And trying to discuss to "repair" that is completely futile. > > > [...] my approach > > > (along with 3 other small software vendors) is to have a > > > requirement to contribute back to the community in some form (in > > > work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free > > > software but not free beer. > > > > Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to start > > another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it on > > freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. > > a) I didn't start the thread and was keeping my comments to a min. You didn't start the thread, but you started abusing it by driving it into the licensing direction. > b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a > flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one reads > seriously it) That's wrong. The chat list is being used for things that are off-topic on the other lists. Sometimes there are "flames" indeed, but that's a minority. How can you say how many people read it? You have zero data to back up that claim. I do read it for as long as it exists (it's mostly rather low volume), I have even saved a few of the posts because they were interesting, humorous or contained valuable information. I have only posted to it two or three times myself in all those years, though. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Perl will consistently give you what you want, unless what you want is consistency." -- Larry Wall From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:36:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0D616A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from ns.trinitel.com (186.161.36.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com [72.36.161.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF1C13C469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:36:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from proton.storspeed.com (209-163-168-124.static.tenantsolutions.com [209.163.168.124] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by ns.trinitel.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0ACwb6n094005; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:58:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:58:37 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Linimon References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ns.trinitel.com Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:36:46 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote: > I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this post and > raise serious issues in a non-confrontational manner. > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:20:13AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: >> Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole systems. >> Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often been answered >> with denial or have simply been ignored. > > The responses on the mailing lists can indeed vary in quality. My own > experience is that many of the key FreeBSD developers respond fairly > well -- when they've got time to do so. Some exceptions exist. But > I don't think any one person is working on amd64 to the exclusion of i386. > Perhaps that is what it would take. > > Other than trying to identify individuals whose responses are doing more > harm than good, I don't have any suggestions here. > >> What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be >> the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the >> Security Team. > > Unfortunately it requires volunteers to constitute such a thing. I've > been trying to come up with ideas on how to get more people involved > in what we would consider 'maintainence' activities, but I've yet to > make an impact. A few people have expressed interest in helping to go > through the PR backlog, but the big shortage is committers who are > willing to work with them on such unglamorous tasks. (I am working on > a proposal to at least make it less frustrating to do so, but I don't > want to tie that into this thread.) > > Having said that, I would join such a team and try to work with it. > >> PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions >> they report do not exist. > > We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any way > to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs contain > patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how to set up > something where more people can participate. > > I've tried to flag certain PRs with '(regression)', fwiw, which is > necessary but clearly insufficient. > >> To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to >> tracking performance problems or a performance test suite is required. > > I think that's 2 separate issues. I had not thought much about trying > to categorize certain PRs as 'performance' but it really does make sense. > I will try to work on this issue. > > There is actually work on performance tests, but it goes on behind the > scenes and is not publicized. (The jump in performance for most > workloads on i386-7 is due to the efforts of many individuals who have > been relentlessly testing MySQL, Postgres, Bind, and other real-world > workloads since the 7 branch was created. Kris, the other respondent in > this thread, is one of the people doing a great deal of work on this.) > Some of this is documented at http://wiki.freebsd.org/Performance. If > there's more specific information that needs to be added there, let me > know off-list. > > There is also the work at http://wiki.freebsd.org/PerformanceTracker, > which I do not know the state of. This sounds encouraging. > > FreeBSD is mostly driven by individual efforts (we are, however, seeing > more interest from corporations, some of whom see network performance > as a key issue). To some extent it's more "interesting" to do new work > than do maintainance work; this is a classical software engineering > problem. Again, I'm completely open to suggestions on how to get more > people interested in working in this area. I'd like to suggest that there are a lot of people there are not committers, yet would like to help. Most times they are told to 'look at the PR database' - and while that is of course a direction to point them, I would recommend instead changing the current methods a bit. Most not-yet-committers have interests in a certain area of FreeBSD, and maybe they have experience there too. Instead of the path being something like: - look at PR's, make patches, submit patches - After enough time, someone offers a commit bit - Once commit bit is accepted, get a mentor - Work under mentor for awhile - released from mentorship Make it more like: - Interested developer wants to help with FreeBSD in a particular area of his/her expertise or liking - A current FreeBSD committer for that area mentors the developer, suggesting PR's to look at, patches to test, projects to work on, and reviewing their patches. - The current committer also does the committing of any patches needed. - Once the new developer has shown 'goodness', the regular commit bit path is followed. The main difference is that a developer is given a 'mentor' very early, with guidance and a little hand holding in the beginning. This would remove the 'wandering developer' problem (where a new developer seems to wander around looking for a simple bug to fix, or patch to try, not sure the best way to go about it, etc), and allow the mentor to focus the new developer on a task that may be important to the project (fixing an old bug, testing out a rotting patch, etc). A lot of times the new developer does not know who to talk to for simple project related questions, and while asking on the lists usually does end up yielding results, I bet that most don't ask the question because it is simply more daunting than either just eventually figuring it out on their own or (if they had the option) asking a 'mentor' the question directly. Also, when someone feels they have some responsibility for an area of the code, they are more likely to respond to issues in it, and be proud of keeping it current. Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice development environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many different environments, but that's great - we should write them all up. That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. Just my $0.02 Eric From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:46:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AB716A474 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:46:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB9313C478 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:45:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47162099; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:45:49 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8780F2089; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:45:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 639C38449F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:45:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:45:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 06\:46\:23 -0500") Message-ID: <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:46:00 -0000 "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing > cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first being > a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect of thinking > that open source by definition means free use of the products. Speak for yourself. > Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as far I can tell > that does not automatically and should not translate into not having > some responibility to the community that created the project in the > first place.... my approach (along with 3 other small software > vendors) is to have a requirement to contribute back to the community > in some form (in work or help support those doing the work), namely it > is free software but not free beer. Excellent idea, if your goal is to kill the project. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:48:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC13E16A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:48:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF9F13C458 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:48:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00AC6L192LY0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ADmiXD090920; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:48:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:48:44 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Message-id: <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:48:50 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing >> cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first >> being a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect >> of thinking that open source by definition means free use of the >> products. > > Speak for yourself. > >> Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as far I can >> tell that does not automatically and should not translate into >> not having some responibility to the community that created the >> project in the first place.... my approach (along with 3 other >> small software vendors) is to have a requirement to contribute >> back to the community in some form (in work or help support those >> doing the work), namely it is free software but not free beer. > > Excellent idea, if your goal is to kill the project. Now to really get some flames... I think the fall of the USSR proves you wrong on that.... namely small groups can afford to do stuff this way but not large and critical projects > > DES - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhiI8jRvRjGmHRgQRAp4xAKCgQPMiyhNyDqDQ53yXl8Kzg6kIhQCeLtgJ XbxexdVWAwJq8ZdRSt4R0Cg= =y2V0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:53:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254FF16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE9913C455 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CECA20A0; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:52 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610DE2089; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:52 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 497E98449F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:52 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <42af13c0754be09eaa392751df755d02@localhost> <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 07\:49\:42 -0500") Message-ID: <86tzllhjnv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Marian Hettwer , Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:53:02 -0000 "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > From previous experiences (both mine of others) the FreeBSD community > tends to be way too conservative (yes it is good to be conservative > but to the level we do it is pathological in some respects). For > example I think it is clear that some work needs to be done to improve > the ports system and I stepped up to volunteer to do most of the heavy > lifting (with two others helping) and on -ports@ got never ending > grief from people who thought that if it is not completely broke don't > fix it. Nobody (or at least nobody who matters) is saying it isn't broke or shouldn't be fixed. It's just that nobody takes you seriously because you haven't yet demonstrated a solid understanding of the history and complexity of the issue, and you've shown a lack of respect for those who have. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:58:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D12D16A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:58:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9813C459 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:58:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00KUZLHK8GX0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0ADwWwQ032082; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:58:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:58:32 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> To: Wilko Bulte Message-id: <47862488.3020305@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:58:33 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wilko Bulte wrote: > Quoting Aryeh M. Friedman, who wrote on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at > 08:00:53AM -0500 .. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >>> writes: >>> >>>>> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What >>>>> is wrong with the standard BSD license please? >>>> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... >>> I am fully with Wilko here. >>> >>> We don't need to change the license or use any other means to >>> beat our users over the head. >>> >>> We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent >>> human beings. >>> >>> A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD >>> developers employed at companies which understand that >>> developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. >>> >>> We just need more of that. >> We also need to have better avenues for people who want to >> contribute but do not have the economic means to subsidize there >> work from some large company, gov. agency and/or university... >> i.e. there is no room for independent people to contribute on a >> full time basis... >> >> As I said in an other message this is not about saying the >> current has anything wrong with it, just that it can be improved. >> >> >> Volunteer efforts are great and I fully support them (such as my >> work on ports 2.0) but the larger they grow the harder it gets to >> do it all volunteer (every large non-profit has paid full-time >> employees after all)... to paraphrase an other organization I am >> involved in we should "be completely self supporting through our >> own ....contributions"... this includes more then just service it >> includes supporting those who do such service... >> >> BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd >> license it would be something as simple as: >> >> "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to >> payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at >> http://......". > > As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core for a > vote I would vote "No". > > This thread seems to move from the concerns our German friends have > into a licensing debate. I feel it would be better if we could get > back on track here. > I would argue they are one in the same because the core cause of their issues is the lack of reward for doing unpleasent work which is not covered sufficently well in the current model. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhiSHjRvRjGmHRgQRAiFKAJ41HwBHhOxLleugMa42Cin43AJUKgCeK4Uc NtLKcv5tjdQD8aszZ+2oxrQ= =pPmB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:59:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A93616A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:59:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5E413C4DB for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:59:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so730884fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:59:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=bHLcCIeNaazVSeGoTGHwgHY1Vy3ZY0qRgWiPqcWidZc=; b=UZZo6C84gx4JvPhnBdAynCguREaskh+xV2ZGcHRjihDHhS3Fimt3IRPyzy3XYdMjWiIwriLiJ3TsSrsuPbxsMz5Vti72fnFp+t2z7tgUmzpGAtUU1W56laGcIB8kyROBJCihai8sEWU7VHDPmLi8xRikEVakvgNpjp6Ya0+Nv0Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=h+riSsfeH8nB+06gI5Pvg6xHQzoCLx1T6B0eDm3ZHyAWdo1l1fTiaOAW7cd+6CxeQu1CKwxHMMOlt3oXljfyWl9TSOMIQOLa01p/bgXdpXroswCdjbbqv0fB+Qu2uH9ExoRWqJLpx+gS4qJ3chcTCShz1d+PIMfIiaiPD9NMCH4= Received: by 10.86.60.15 with SMTP id i15mr279608fga.28.1199973560474; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:59:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:59:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801100559k42cf4c33ha93ae50ed9d27ac0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:59:20 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: Darran In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:59:22 -0000 On 1/10/08, Darran wrote: > "Scot Hetzel" wrote: > > I tried Dell's R151519.EXE XP Driver > > (http://ftp.us.dell.com/network/R151519.EXE) > > : > This is almost exactly the same as i am getting, I will follow your instructions > later about the debug but i did use the same driver and it panics with the same > sort of message. > i think mine might be a dell 1390 card i cant be certain but its almost the same > error > I also get the same panic when I use the same driver from HP's web site. ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp34001-34500/sp34152.exe The version of the failing driver SP34152 (HP) and R151519 (Dell) is 4.100.15.5 (md5 checksum of bcmwl564.sys is the same). I use version 4.40.19.0 available from HP at: ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp33001-33500/sp33008.exe This version should also work on your Dell system. Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:16:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F4116A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:16:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from mail.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6736F13C4DB for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:16:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from homeKamikaze.norad (nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.72.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BD8405C6C for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:16:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <478628BA.3000801@bsdforen.de> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:16:26 +0100 From: Dominic Fandrey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:16:29 -0000 Wilko Bulte wrote: > As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core for a vote > I would vote "No". > > This thread seems to move from the concerns our German friends have into > a licensing debate. I feel it would be better if we could get back on track > here. > Agreed, this was never intended to become a license discussion. If changing the license would be the only solution, I would rather live with the problems than solving them. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:18:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B64A16A469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:18:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0743B13C4D9 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:18:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00ARRMEJO5Y0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AEIHw2000241; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:18:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:18:17 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <200801101413.m0AEDZsb058894@lurza.secnetix.de> To: Oliver Fromme Message-id: <47862929.50901@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <200801101413.m0AEDZsb058894@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:18:29 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > > > Just a side question... if it is so complete why was there a need to > > modify the orginal UCB version?... specifically there is no reason not > > to discuss improvements. > > The modification that happened was to remove restrictions. > What you propose is to add restrictions, which means that > it would be less free. That's a step backwards and will > not happen. Which are completely optional (adding options is always good)... as it currently stands it makes the situation no real option except for making the != in my signature into a == > > > If the root cause of the OP's issues is lack of interest in older code > > The OP's posting rather sounds like regression testing and > QA needs to be improved. Which are always unglamorous jobs and thus the least likelly to be done without some kind of reward greater then a pat on the back. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhikpjRvRjGmHRgQRAvmZAKCzdLHoAgy5oNL66HKBBnhfJasFSgCgiW2V w7pBfhNhYrF3lqS5XYhgPTU= =nPho -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:19:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE4816A420 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:19:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89A613C4E1 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:19:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00NJLMGR1UT0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AEJc4f000246; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:19:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:19:38 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <478628BA.3000801@bsdforen.de> To: Dominic Fandrey Message-id: <4786297A.6000900@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478628BA.3000801@bsdforen.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:19:41 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dominic Fandrey wrote: > Wilko Bulte wrote: >> As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core for >> a vote I would vote "No". >> >> This thread seems to move from the concerns our German friends >> have into a licensing debate. I feel it would be better if we >> could get back on track here. >> > > Agreed, this was never intended to become a license discussion. If > changing the license would be the only solution, I would rather > live with the problems than solving them. It is not the only solution but it is the best long term one IMO - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhil6jRvRjGmHRgQRAvROAJ96t0kRRVwfMuoelt8LZesW5rcvmgCeLAWt gRXfBc/ubyUBj5ZWvcNc1mU= =tb7z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:31:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E0916A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:31:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6435D13C45B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:31:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1810B209C; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:31:33 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B672099; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:31:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DB1E28449F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:31:32 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Peter Schuller References: <15094.1199751424@critter.freebsd.dk> <200801080237.40379.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <86tzlonozc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200801091922.56670.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <863at6j8tr.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:31:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <863at6j8tr.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 11\:04\:00 +0100") Message-ID: <86prw9hhvf.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Andrew Reilly , Peter Jeremy , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky , Kostik Belousov Subject: Re: sbrk(2) broken X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:31:42 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > Peter Schuller writes: > > However, in this context it will likely only help partially since you s= till > > need a full page to be free (and with a lot of programs many allocation= s will > > be significantly smaller than that, and I have to assume no real-life m= alloc > > will align all allocations to pages, or the overhead would be extreme). > Page-aligning every allocation would be supremely stupid, and jemalloc > does so only for allocations larger than a page. I misread your "no" as "any", so it seems we are in violent agreement. However, most allocators these days are zone or slab allocators (or similar in principle), and are pretty good at minimizing external fragmentation except for pathological cases, which are suprisingly rare in practice. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:41:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB5116A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:41:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7222513C46E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:41:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639AA20B9; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:28 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EA4209C; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 259A78449F; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:28 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 08\:48\:44 -0500") Message-ID: <86bq7thhev.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:41:44 -0000 "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > Now to really get some flames... I think the fall of the USSR proves > you wrong on that.... namely small groups can afford to do stuff this > way but not large and critical projects "The fall of the USSR proves you wrong"? That's just awesome... Great way to get the upper hand in any debate! I'd stick it in my sig, if I hadn't given up on sigs years ago... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:43:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9032116A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:43:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CAC13C458 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:43:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so746201fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:43:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=U2jCgy1qOGQrWVOniLA1kduBIlAlzhHalNG+bfuhpMs=; b=GFpVnWpK3XT4kTtV12krDAVCgz6Qdui7R1WAuAsywhy7z2S24I8nkXVUsHCBsQZDCOmXY4Ext3WpT0KBA8nc/ZQmjwN3G0XQgdLS3vnlN5BvviyT85p8qR6wqfITyqhIJfx52UlNiTeoz7I6qnnHTLXytgEDMPmKrwIOhMvVXig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=ovHtLqlpOnhSEFuhTLJfLUtVjuRdcJG0/Q1Kd2TgkDlGeX6QDea+7BT8rfCMwue87eWBNhtRTP5kCytYwLrfc14UP53Uo6QYC8XCsQk/aR5tFDrw2t47lPAabJU8eeNXMOU3rBTxS4rAvvVnhESVUOwoxwDFeGAXsK0Dv7ozxoo= Received: by 10.82.145.7 with SMTP id s7mr3307514bud.7.1199976234429; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm1089540gve.11.2008.01.10.06.43.52 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-Reply-To: <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-4zrTfb8NyMqneesyJj3I" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:43:50 +0000 Message-Id: <1199976230.1713.3.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ridiculous license discussion (was: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:43:56 -0000 --=-4zrTfb8NyMqneesyJj3I Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 08:48 -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote some junk: Is there any chance of this thread going back on topic. I have precisely no interest in this attempt to redefine BSD. Can you please take it to -chat, or at the very least, start a new thread rather than taking over an actual issue. Tom --=-4zrTfb8NyMqneesyJj3I Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhi8jlcRvFfyds/cRApfIAJ9Mhh9H55SBWrNl1Ae5FTL6hIVKSQCfQniu GXc8jkA0+J5AGCOc7Lgy64A= =Rgq/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-4zrTfb8NyMqneesyJj3I-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:47:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D87F16A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:47:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BE13C4E8 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:47:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0AElHGG043030; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0AEl4fv011582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0AEl4Uo087192; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0AEl4NY087191; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:04 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080110144703.GN79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478628BA.3000801@bsdforen.de> <4786297A.6000900@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4786297A.6000900@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:47:21 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 09:19:38AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dominic Fandrey wrote: > > Wilko Bulte wrote: > >> As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core for > >> a vote I would vote "No". > >> > >> This thread seems to move from the concerns our German friends > >> have into a licensing debate. I feel it would be better if we > >> could get back on track here. > >> > > > > Agreed, this was never intended to become a license discussion. If > > changing the license would be the only solution, I would rather > > live with the problems than solving them. > > It is not the only solution but it is the best long term one IMO No - it is not even a solution at all. If you force people to do something you get bad quality, which doesn't solve anything. Really - FreeBSD is as free beer and this is intended. If you are happy with it and don't want to give something back it is fine. If you want to complain about the type or quality of free beer you should help getting it better. Even bug reporting is helping to get it better, but if someone is handling your report you should at least be prepared to help in getting the required informations, otherwise you are just wasting time of other persons. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 13:54:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A77D16A46D for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:54:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05A513C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [82.95.250.254]) by smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0ADsKTS028820; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:54:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0ADsKxk010996; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:54:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.6/Submit) id m0ADsKDO010991; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:54:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:54:20 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:48:47 +0000 Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:54:30 -0000 Quoting Aryeh M. Friedman, who wrote on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 08:00:53AM -0500 .. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > > writes: > > > >>> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is > >>> wrong with the standard BSD license please? > >> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... > > > > I am fully with Wilko here. > > > > We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat > > our users over the head. > > > > We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent > > human beings. > > > > A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD > > developers employed at companies which understand that developer > > support is key to FreeBSDs future. > > > > We just need more of that. > > We also need to have better avenues for people who want to contribute > but do not have the economic means to subsidize there work from some > large company, gov. agency and/or university... i.e. there is no room > for independent people to contribute on a full time basis... > > As I said in an other message this is not about saying the current has > anything wrong with it, just that it can be improved. > > Volunteer efforts are great and I fully support them (such as my work > on ports 2.0) but the larger they grow the harder it gets to do it all > volunteer (every large non-profit has paid full-time employees after > all)... to paraphrase an other organization I am involved in we should > "be completely self supporting through our own ....contributions"... > this includes more then just service it includes supporting those who > do such service... > > BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd > license it would be something as simple as: > > "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to > payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at > http://......". As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core for a vote I would vote "No". This thread seems to move from the concerns our German friends have into a licensing debate. I feel it would be better if we could get back on track here. -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:13:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D06416A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD77813C45B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:13:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AEDc6N058895; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:13:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0AEDZsb058894; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:13:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:13:35 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801101413.m0AEDZsb058894@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <47861CCD.7010707@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:13:39 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:49:12 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:13:41 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > No, not necessarily. In particular, the BSD license does not > > enforce availability of the source to everyone, and it does not > > enforce anything else, except that the license may not be removed. > > > > That's not accidental, it's not a flaw, it doesn't need repair. > > It's intended. And trying to discuss to "repair" that is > > completely futile. > > Just a side question... if it is so complete why was there a need to > modify the orginal UCB version?... specifically there is no reason not > to discuss improvements. The modification that happened was to remove restrictions. What you propose is to add restrictions, which means that it would be less free. That's a step backwards and will not happen. > If the root cause of the OP's issues is lack of interest in older code The OP's posting rather sounds like regression testing and QA needs to be improved. > > > b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a > > > flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one > > > reads seriously it) > > > > That's wrong. The chat list is being used for things that are > > off-topic on the other lists. Sometimes there are "flames" indeed, > > but that's a minority. > > I subscribe to it and have yet to see anything more then a 50/50 split > between real chat (and that is really not approriate for this > discussions a list for the legal/business aspects of freebsd would be) > and flames I don't think you're really reading it. I currently habe 336 threads in my freebsd-chat folder (dating back to Jan 1st 2006; older ones are archived elsewhere on my machine). In the past three months there was exactly one thread that was a flamewar. Your 50/50 number is completely wrong. In fact there have been more flamewares on -current than on -chat. :-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:55:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FF216A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AAD13C465 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00DD2O3FHAV0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AEsofJ086841; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:54:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:54:50 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110144703.GN79270@cicely12.cicely.de> To: ticso@cicely.de Message-id: <478631BA.6050006@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <20080110135420.GA10955@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478628BA.3000801@bsdforen.de> <4786297A.6000900@gmail.com> <20080110144703.GN79270@cicely12.cicely.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:55:16 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bernd Walter wrote: > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 09:19:38AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Dominic Fandrey wrote: >>> Wilko Bulte wrote: >>>> As far as I'm concerned: if a license like that comes to core >>>> for a vote I would vote "No". >>>> >>>> This thread seems to move from the concerns our German >>>> friends have into a licensing debate. I feel it would be >>>> better if we could get back on track here. >>>> >>> Agreed, this was never intended to become a license discussion. >>> If changing the license would be the only solution, I would >>> rather live with the problems than solving them. >> It is not the only solution but it is the best long term one IMO > > No - it is not even a solution at all. If you force people to do > something you get bad quality, which doesn't solve anything. While that of course is the choice of indivual contributors I see no reason to force it on every single one of them. For example I think nvidia is taking advantage of this by getting us to do work that only benefits them at no cost to them, > Really - FreeBSD is as free beer and this is intended. If you are > happy with it and don't want to give something back it is fine. If > you want to complain about the type or quality of free beer you > should help getting it better. I have done both... why would I be involved with the effort to re-engineer the ports system (aka ports 2.0) [this is not the time or place to reopen that debate so contact me privately if you have an issue with it] > Even bug reporting is helping to get it better, but if someone is > handling your report you should at least be prepared to help in > getting the required informations, otherwise you are just wasting > time of other persons. Doing non-commerical software we have that luxury but this would never make it in the commericial world (worse comes to worse you send someone out to the customers site to see first hand what the issue is)... that is the point if FreeBSD is going to survive long term it needs to become more professional IMO Just a side note... I am working on making a OS thus it is not in my personal interest to create a more competent competitor... I brought the whole topic up because (clearly) I am a fanatic when it comes to the model I am purposing [I am on the board of a non-profit whose goal is to expand the use of the model]. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhjG5jRvRjGmHRgQRAncKAKCPIG69yiX+63B5fx8ZgAtsfqAWQACgsgMV K/9MppO9dfDLn5o6kzXTvBg= =ziKe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:56:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEEB16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615D613C461 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AEuRer060408; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:56:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0AEuRW5060407; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:56:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:56:27 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801101456.m0AEuRW5060407@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <47862929.50901@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:56:28 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:30 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > > Just a side question... if it is so complete why was there a need to > > > modify the orginal UCB version?... specifically there is no reason not > > > to discuss improvements. > > > > The modification that happened was to remove restrictions. > > What you propose is to add restrictions, which means that > > it would be less free. That's a step backwards and will > > not happen. > > Which are completely optional (adding options is always good) Optional clauses are useless. They don't add anything to the license, because you already have the option to do anything that's not expressedly forbidden by the existing clauses. > > The OP's posting rather sounds like regression testing and > > QA needs to be improved. > > Which are always unglamorous jobs and thus the least likelly to be > done without some kind of reward greater then a pat on the back. I think the RE team already does quite a good job, and it is my impression that it gets better with every release. FreeBSD already _does_ have a quite extensive regression testing framework; have a look at src/tools/regression. Of course there's always room for improvement and expansion. > "Free software != Free beer" I think that's an oversimplification that misses the spirit of the BSD license, and how it is different from licenses such as the GPL. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "I made up the term 'object-oriented', and I can tell you I didn't have C++ in mind." -- Alan Kay, OOPSLA '97 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 14:56:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F3216A4C1 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rn-out-0102.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F1A13C46B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rn-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s42so81813rnb.13 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:56:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=rLo05aSfyf1M6nWtvZGBmpJDc7ogdaF5UF5XsVe8aRY=; b=BAcxNj0CegaPRKzcAmzf/Jp/7oMWLs750PIw/krbIXR+xVdmFWamCa6ma6O8XPXuIDTCkeEXsrR9jR7PB/XPQmJJIX0GOIYB73B3h5+2tfCX6YkoJRcZ/4MjfYM26438c75B7fBaqvJcWBKLFzNKxM7TiRjCysse7DF6fPvisaI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OD1E+PPEwYogf7XbZamZ2BTQb4iL2RsXzQtWdOll//6K0stRTXkCCLiVivwjLR5mnDnlliJnhR99Kng8kRSVsIwcQ5RSNfxNJyIqyclKjgrFXRoQ/vI9FNLIB6ValfaeBJi/OQhjk214oyWJHZjSzKRcGmw6iJmweQ+qMosdYpc= Received: by 10.142.158.17 with SMTP id g17mr997808wfe.234.1199976975930; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.155.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:56:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:15 +0900 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Dominic Fandrey" In-Reply-To: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 202d6e6e510716a8 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:33 -0000 On 10/01/2008, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are suffering > for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk > suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and > stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been ignored. Only > on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken seriously. This is the thing though. Its working for the developers, its not working for the users, so how do you think it'll get fixed? > The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain unanswered > or the reporters are told that the regressions they report do not exist. Some > of our members have even suffered the experience that they developed a patch, > but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a "Linux > solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never looked at > Linux code. Whats the PR number? > The problem seems, in our opinion, to reside with unmaintained code. It seems > that nobody wants to take responsibility for code that has been untouched for > a longer period of time. This is quite understandable, considering that > developers already have projects they're working on and probably consider much > more important, but that does not make it less of a problem. I doubt anyone would mind if any of the community there would be interested in taking over unmaintained code. > What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be the > establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the Security > Team. The sole purpose of this team would be to take care of regressions that > concern unmaintained code. Why would anyone fix the code if they don't care about it? You've got a group of users who care about regessions in unmaintained code. Figure out how to work with y'all to develop good quality solutions to these problems and integrate them back into the FreeBSD source tree. > To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to tracking > performance problems or a performance test suite is required. This would > hopefully allow us to write PRs and emails that would be taken more seriously. Again, if someone there wrote up some performance test suites or built a testing environment then I'm sure you'll get some help. The FreeBSD has always been helpful when people willing to develop have stood up and engaged the community in coming to a solution. So, are you guys willing to stand up and contribute something towards solutions to the problems you're seeing? Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org (Licence related issues? pish. The project I work on has licencing issues. FreeBSD is fine.) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:08:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4267516A46B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAFE13C45D for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00KVDOPWUMP0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AF8K2g061876; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:08:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:08:20 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <2fd864e0801100703n4e8170caq52d0b25b988bb42b@mail.gmail.com> To: Astrodog Message-id: <478634E4.3040000@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47862929.50901@gmail.com> <200801101456.m0AEuRW5060407@lurza.secnetix.de> <2fd864e0801100703n4e8170caq52d0b25b988bb42b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:22 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Astrodog wrote: > All of this time spent discussing licenses, by various FreeBSD > developers, is time not spent making FreeBSD better. > > Please don't tell me there's nothing better to do than this. Ports 2.0 (which I am heading up) but for reasons you know of I want to transfer some the tech to such a license and thus want to develop under it from the get go. Speaking of that any word on hash tree's? - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhjTkjRvRjGmHRgQRAuJHAJ9q64lCA6ZBrEkVXBkOmSFtC9RuhgCfaq37 8qemqKjUdjV0tWH5q5m2g0Y= =7ikU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:10:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C4416A469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:10:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D2913C4E9 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:10:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C093136E0002 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:45:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 031C12846A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:45:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:45:12 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080110154512.1840cb08.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <86bq7thhev.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> <4785D9CB.5080909@gmail.com> <4785E8A0.30806@gmail.com> <20080110110052.GB10155@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <86y7axhjzm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4786223C.2040302@gmail.com> <86bq7thhev.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:10:15 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:28 +0100: > "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > > Now to really get some flames... I think the fall of the USSR proves > > you wrong on that.... namely small groups can afford to do stuff > > this way but not large and critical projects >=20 > "The fall of the USSR proves you wrong"? That's just awesome... > Great way to get the upper hand in any debate! I'd stick it in my > sig, if I hadn't given up on sigs years ago... >=20 > DES It did fall? Didn't notice. Still builds the best fighters, best submarines, and are the only one that really can do manned space journeys. Sooooo OT. ;) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:28:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9964016A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281AB13C459 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so721912rvb.43 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:28:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=FUZFpajHvTt9eLQTgAwSwT68sT8V4xhsRjmRUISj+PU=; b=d8WcBMyuoBUQQVRLzR3HXn/96mhwBGpzsDuTAOE8ziyAk/3VSfXAXFzVCbqv/PgNi3kFDVc9CnGQKt5mzQryWvu7RNGkxL6RkWUFvW10OLxPJ7BTBiUKxpnnH+z3rnWkYF7vfpuGzgujb6SOP3kqFBUiQZdSF5koKzzEJ5uUX+I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UXKlXz2eaQEmLNms0poe73cl58pz8hUG8WZSNPUalfySoUnWr3UE1RECgCQrcxgNiwIyq4BVxSaQQ1KbyuzIOZohfc/B4Kj0JvqrEGxnFaDIP9Fm5M69w3mey8Bvsa84XjOzZkqkfYP5WSK76rBN/R6hDUY8u6znwqfshtbMXEI= Received: by 10.141.43.5 with SMTP id v5mr1247284rvj.216.1199977409118; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.74.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0801100703n4e8170caq52d0b25b988bb42b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:03:29 +0900 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <200801101456.m0AEuRW5060407@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47862929.50901@gmail.com> <200801101456.m0AEuRW5060407@lurza.secnetix.de> Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:11 -0000 All of this time spent discussing licenses, by various FreeBSD developers, is time not spent making FreeBSD better. Please don't tell me there's nothing better to do than this. --- Harrison From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:28:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C1516A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0729713C442 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67C81A4D8C; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:25:57 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: aw1@stade.co.uk Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:24:55 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> <20080110084949.GA60476@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20080110084949.GA60476@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801101024.56079.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A quick and dirty lpt patch.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:28:53 -0000 On Thursday 10 January 2008 03:49:49 am Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 07:39:42PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > Hack patch is at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ppbus_intr.patch and > > inline below. I know it compiles, but I haven't runtested it. :) > > I've compiled a kernel with the patch, installed the kernel, rebooted > with a power cycle, and printed without a panic, so it seems to work for > me. > > Do still get this in /var/log/messages which might be annoying for those > who print a lot: > Jan 10 08:23:18 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > Jan 10 08:23:18 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [ITHREAD] > Jan 10 08:23:19 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > Jan 10 08:23:19 rottcodd kernel: lpt0: [ITHREAD] Yes, you will still see these messages until ppbus is fixed to not be so silly. > Thanks! Presumably this needs more testing before it hits RELENG7? A couple of success reports is probably sufficient. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:39:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843DB16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:39:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023BB13C4E5 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:39:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so613999fka.11 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:39:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=a/G7L9CGKoowGdguoNqkoo4isYAl7IKSwwT7xgv5aN0=; b=YRaWlBElh8GaK9DiEfefWnw9uzTrIzqnOTNG3Eekqpe3xo0sTij9B7HsXG6lPcA6Xww6njcYCmN5rSGKjk11Sr6GM6SjUVNKJwUTC+nS+q0RXmTdZksgeIeNQXA4tjbAfFbGmr0+hU6WbAdQr7MGFDoCAFb5hau0AzdGkDAH+YI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=wbLEXJqZZNSvZAn9xi7AL0qUsTH8chuzjzGyYEzs36JJWMoMmVDu58TPaaOmJcDzwB7tvQqVKkmRUEyKCMv4ZvD8M6q5h2nnuLRDlpR9QEGZfBME5acgqg7Nmemww+5Of8xRHDTrwHy4tlfnvQGHoRniUk0RUC5v2m8x0x90jMI= Received: by 10.78.165.16 with SMTP id n16mr2393343hue.63.1199979559025; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:39:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:39:18 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Eric Anderson" In-Reply-To: <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:39:21 -0000 On Jan 10, 2008 12:58 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this post and > > raise serious issues in a non-confrontational manner. > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:20:13AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > >> Even minimal I/O load on a hard disk suffices to lock up whole systems. > >> Posts on the mailinglists current and stable have often been answered > >> with denial or have simply been ignored. > > > > The responses on the mailing lists can indeed vary in quality. My own > > experience is that many of the key FreeBSD developers respond fairly > > well -- when they've got time to do so. Some exceptions exist. But > > I don't think any one person is working on amd64 to the exclusion of i386. > > Perhaps that is what it would take. > > > > Other than trying to identify individuals whose responses are doing more > > harm than good, I don't have any suggestions here. > > > >> What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be > >> the establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the > >> Security Team. > > > > Unfortunately it requires volunteers to constitute such a thing. I've > > been trying to come up with ideas on how to get more people involved > > in what we would consider 'maintainence' activities, but I've yet to > > make an impact. A few people have expressed interest in helping to go > > through the PR backlog, but the big shortage is committers who are > > willing to work with them on such unglamorous tasks. (I am working on > > a proposal to at least make it less frustrating to do so, but I don't > > want to tie that into this thread.) > > > > Having said that, I would join such a team and try to work with it. > > > >> PRs remain unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions > >> they report do not exist. > > > > We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any way > > to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs contain > > patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how to set up > > something where more people can participate. > > > > I've tried to flag certain PRs with '(regression)', fwiw, which is > > necessary but clearly insufficient. > > > >> To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to > >> tracking performance problems or a performance test suite is required. > > > > I think that's 2 separate issues. I had not thought much about trying > > to categorize certain PRs as 'performance' but it really does make sense. > > I will try to work on this issue. > > > > There is actually work on performance tests, but it goes on behind the > > scenes and is not publicized. (The jump in performance for most > > workloads on i386-7 is due to the efforts of many individuals who have > > been relentlessly testing MySQL, Postgres, Bind, and other real-world > > workloads since the 7 branch was created. Kris, the other respondent in > > this thread, is one of the people doing a great deal of work on this.) > > Some of this is documented at http://wiki.freebsd.org/Performance. If > > there's more specific information that needs to be added there, let me > > know off-list. > > > > There is also the work at http://wiki.freebsd.org/PerformanceTracker, > > which I do not know the state of. This sounds encouraging. > > > > FreeBSD is mostly driven by individual efforts (we are, however, seeing > > more interest from corporations, some of whom see network performance > > as a key issue). To some extent it's more "interesting" to do new work > > than do maintainance work; this is a classical software engineering > > problem. Again, I'm completely open to suggestions on how to get more > > people interested in working in this area. > > I'd like to suggest that there are a lot of people there are not > committers, yet would like to help. Most times they are told to 'look > at the PR database' - and while that is of course a direction to point > them, I would recommend instead changing the current methods a bit. > Most not-yet-committers have interests in a certain area of FreeBSD, and > maybe they have experience there too. Instead of the path being > something like: > - look at PR's, make patches, submit patches > - After enough time, someone offers a commit bit > - Once commit bit is accepted, get a mentor > - Work under mentor for awhile > - released from mentorship > > Make it more like: > - Interested developer wants to help with FreeBSD in a particular area > of his/her expertise or liking > - A current FreeBSD committer for that area mentors the developer, > suggesting PR's to look at, patches to test, projects to work on, and > reviewing their patches. > - The current committer also does the committing of any patches needed. > - Once the new developer has shown 'goodness', the regular commit bit > path is followed. > > The main difference is that a developer is given a 'mentor' very early, > with guidance and a little hand holding in the beginning. This would > remove the 'wandering developer' problem (where a new developer seems to > wander around looking for a simple bug to fix, or patch to try, not sure > the best way to go about it, etc), and allow the mentor to focus the new > developer on a task that may be important to the project (fixing an old > bug, testing out a rotting patch, etc). A lot of times the new > developer does not know who to talk to for simple project related > questions, and while asking on the lists usually does end up yielding > results, I bet that most don't ask the question because it is simply > more daunting than either just eventually figuring it out on their own > or (if they had the option) asking a 'mentor' the question directly. > Also, when someone feels they have some responsibility for an area of > the code, they are more likely to respond to issues in it, and be proud > of keeping it current. I like this approach but it can be humanly impossible. Ok, not impossible but difficult. The small amount of developers all claim of the very little time they have to give to the project. Now imagine babysitting everyone that wants/needs attention. Of course, getting more people onboard would relieve the "small amount of developers" pressure but then again, I prefer quality over quantity. This kind of problem has risen recently on usb@ and something definitly needs to be done, with the risk of FreeBSD being a contributor based project, becoming a "it's too hard to contribute project". This will alienate (more) people as they loose the feeling of connection to the project. I would welcome this suggestion as long as it is sustainable by the developers. Actually it's theirs to welcome or not;-) > Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice development > environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many > different environments, but that's great - we should write them all up. > That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. This would be *MOST* welcome :-D > > Just my $0.02 > > Eric > ++karma on your $0.02 -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:41:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A337316A418; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7961713C457; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81D047727; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:41:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080110153814.C2499@fledge.watson.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:30 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Again, if someone there wrote up some performance test suites or built a > testing environment then I'm sure you'll get some help. > > The FreeBSD has always been helpful when people willing to develop have > stood up and engaged the community in coming to a solution. So, are you guys > willing to stand up and contribute something towards solutions to the > problems you're seeing? Indeed -- experience suggests that we tend to do the best job at improving the performance and quality of code when there are willing hands with quantitative measures by which to evaluate progress. Something I'd really like to see, for example, are some tests that look at the latency of operations visible to users in the windowing system and reduce the results down to a set of simple values that can be used to drive optimization. This has worked very well with workloads like SQL processing, DNS, etc, and I think could work well in other areas. The key here is getting people who care about workloads to invest time to try and make them (or comparable workloads) accessible to developers. Coming up with those benchmarks, or at least measures, proves tricky and requires quite a bit of technical expertise, but I think it's often more accessible than coming up with the fixes and architectural changes required to improve numbers. But it's surpising how motivation a simple set of performance numbers can be in the right hands. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:58:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F8E16A41B; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:58:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Juergen.Dankoweit@t-online.de) Received: from mailout08.sul.t-online.com (mailout08.sul.t-online.de [194.25.134.20]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503A313C458; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:58:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Juergen.Dankoweit@t-online.de) Received: from fwd28.aul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1JCzA6-0007Nt-03; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:42 +0100 Received: from mail.juergendankoweit.net (GuOXEaZT8hTZK5OAq-Q25mkhZ1yZ5aXwmZAWigM8gnamFpUwsOn2nK8tMqfnKnxgXg@[87.174.253.160]) by fwd28.aul.t-online.de with esmtp id 1JCz9f-1AwdNY0; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:15 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost.juergendankoweit.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.juergendankoweit.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8AA121A9; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:14 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at juergendankoweit.net Received: from mail.juergendankoweit.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.juergendankoweit.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68w1ElZd9oML; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from primergy470.juergendankoweit.net (primergy470.juergendankoweit.net [192.168.1.1]) by mail.juergendankoweit.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074421150B; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:08 +0100 (CET) From: Juergen.Dankoweit@t-online.de (Juergen Dankoweit) To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-scx51B7yqUWZHeSygauG" Organization: FreeBSD-Onkel Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:07 +0100 Message-Id: <1199978227.43531.2.camel@primergy470.juergendankoweit.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-ID: GuOXEaZT8hTZK5OAq-Q25mkhZ1yZ5aXwmZAWigM8gnamFpUwsOn2nK8tMqfnKnxgXg X-TOI-MSGID: 628f2fb1-7c1f-458b-a7ae-d12cc54505d2 Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen.Dankoweit@FreeBSD-Onkel.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:58:34 -0000 --=-scx51B7yqUWZHeSygauG Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Am Donnerstag, den 10.01.2008, 23:56 +0900 schrieb Adrian Chadd: > On 10/01/2008, Dominic Fandrey wrote: >=20 > > The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are suff= ering > > for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a har= d disk > > suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current an= d > > stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been ignored= . Only > > on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken serio= usly. >=20 > This is the thing though. Its working for the developers, its not > working for the users, so how do you think it'll get fixed? >=20 > > The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain unans= wered > > or the reporters are told that the regressions they report do not exist= . Some > > of our members have even suffered the experience that they developed a = patch, > > but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a "= Linux > > solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never loo= ked at > > Linux code. >=20 > Whats the PR number? PR-Number: 114597 Juergen --=-scx51B7yqUWZHeSygauG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhjbzIpzx1RaTG8URAolkAJ4quPNjZVTQ9xblonXvL5H4YFcluACdEG86 ZuteQw/FcDN4qaXvJVesfzo= =xamn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-scx51B7yqUWZHeSygauG-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:04:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7588016A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:04:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF2913C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so773596fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:04:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=r37UdCE4HDcYatfRPmKvMqBGQYD9soMZVTzgWPDFnOw=; b=T4cKoyRtLpeapcnhlObsClKpqHI0QxGDxLhhNYJl8Rb7hKiAVcYmkjDEnCiHQFPHNtgSHkvN9UMENRJebUERi3XB4N+B5f0Rnk7ADlDXlEQgGxw0mYkGVIR0qMTb5fsagHOGCofsabFfsh6N3KxrfyMjm7iGvEAeWRXvu8JvSgQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=TnQIVESfyqm80aIpPd0RWcKFcPIj0rmsIYVZyZPzJJGzbjRQpMAjJxkhqS0G7awqyeMcj05NxuS9tyGqzH4SfLDqC0P4K6s9DPo3iwA45yBKouk3vMdCb6J/BFhe6VOUNRIDBmOQJ/0GBb/ddAQAeMzkQltsizbhQZNByS4AkxU= Received: by 10.82.116.15 with SMTP id o15mr3462467buc.3.1199981084346; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4sm1176980gve.7.2008.01.10.08.04.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: Joao Barros In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-pIJg7n3xDfCTYv8nQ60g" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:04:42 +0000 Message-Id: <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:04:46 -0000 --=-pIJg7n3xDfCTYv8nQ60g Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 15:39 +0000, Joao Barros wrote: > On Jan 10, 2008 12:58 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice developmen= t > > environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many > > different environments, but that's great - we should write them all up. > > That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. >=20 > This would be *MOST* welcome :-D man 7 development It is fairly simple to set up following those instructions. Cheers Tom --=-pIJg7n3xDfCTYv8nQ60g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhkIWlcRvFfyds/cRAr96AKClph2F4JqwP1JbWrXN9YSTePJMwQCeKwZd fB4y2j1crbBbPxKcRnJd33A= =2lE9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-pIJg7n3xDfCTYv8nQ60g-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 15:47:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E90516A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7326D13C458 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 032338C11C; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:47:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:47:37 -0600 To: aryeh.friedman@gmail.com Message-ID: <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:16:44 +0000 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:47:38 -0000 The FreeBSD license will not be changing. How can I say this even though I am not an official spokesman for the project? Let me explain. (a disclaimer first: I am on both the bugbusting team and the ports management team, and have been for several years. However, I'm not using either of those as a basis for the above claim. Thus, everything here is my _own opinion_.) FreeBSD is 3 things. You understand 1.5 of those things. - FreeBSD is a codebase. - FreeBSD is a community of users and developers. - FreeBSD is a *culture*. It's easy to see FreeBSD as a "codebase". There's a web page, and CVS scripts, and it all comes together as all these bits on a disk. It _looks_ like a regular product. But it isn't. The software is a byproduct of a process. In that process, a community of users and developers works together. Mostly they share two key goals: - To create something "really neat" - To have fun. That's the *culture*. To the extent that culture exists, we will continue to attract new users and developers, and retain the old ones. If it doesn't, we won't. And: ***every attempt that has been made in the past to change that culture has failed***. As well it _should_. Because once the culture goes away, all we have is the pile of bits. If forced to sign something that said "you _must_ contribute back", my firm belief is that most of the current developers would walk. I certainly would -- and I say that as someone who has contributed a great deal in the past. I simply won't put myself in a position where I feel _compelled_ to do so. It's my free time, and I'll do what I want with it, TYVM. Our *culture* is a very delicate dance between self-interest and altruism. (I'm not familiar with anything other than Open Source that has this unique balance, but possibly amateur radio comes close.) The FreeBSD community has always vehemently protested any attempt to change the culture by e.g. turning the development process into something directed by companies. This is a feature. Frankly, if people want to get told to do something they don't want to do, it just starts looking like work, and there's a lot better-paying jobs out there than Open Source will ever be able to generate. Letting some outside entity direct the project would break the culture. We would be killing the goose to get the golden egg. Having said that, there is increasing interest from some companies in funding individuals to work on specific projects. To the extent that this work can be integrated without hurting the existing culture, I'm all for it. If we can have some kind of hybrid model: fine. But if anyone wants to take FreeBSD and make a commercial enterprise out of it, fine, go ahead and do so, but please do it somewhere else. Now, with that background, let me return to my original point. I don't have the power to go change the bits that define the license. Even if I did, I wouldn't. Even core, who I suppose theoretically could, wouldn't. If they did, they'd all be kicked out on their butts in the next election -- if there were any developers left who hadn't already forked and started a new project with the bits and the original culture. So, the license isn't going to change -- and even if it did, the people that changed it would be left behind as the community simply moved over to a new name that reflected the original culture. I said earlier that you understood 1.5 things. You see the codebase. You have a poor understanding of the community -- which is why you feel you've been badly received to this point -- you simply don't understand how we work together as it is. But the thing you have absolutely no concept of, for whatever reason, is the culture. Our culture is fine. Our license is fine. If you don't like them: start your own. The bits are there for the taking. Now please, go away and stop putting your plans for whatever project under whatever culture you're trying to establish, under our banner, on our mailing lists. Thanks. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:25:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6B716A417; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:25:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1429113C448; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:25:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6821A3C1A; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:22:20 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, d@delphij.net Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:09:37 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <4785616A.4070001@delphij.net> In-Reply-To: <4785616A.4070001@delphij.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801101109.38294.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Richard Bates Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:25:16 -0000 On Wednesday 09 January 2008 07:06:02 pm Xin LI wrote: > Richard Bates wrote: > > Sorry for the repost... > > I don't think the first one posted.. > > > > posted to freebsd.stable, freebsd-current, Freebsd-hardware > > > > I checked the hardware in the online documentation manual/hardware > > > > It only lists the bits and peices of the machine say the hard drive > > controller and so forth. but doesn't give you a particular system to > > look at as a working machine with FreeBSD 6.2 > > > > does anybody know if a Dell PowerEdge 1950 > > =95 Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processors 5400 series 3.16GHz > > =95 4GB Ram > > > > I am looking to attach 2 machines to a SAN to make a constantly up > > system. Is there a Dell San and San Switch that will work with this > > version of BSD? > > > > Thank you for your help >=20 > It has been observed that there is some interrupt related issue with > certain models of Dell PowerEdge 1950/2950 on 6.2-RELEASE, to be more > specific, those which are configured without a RAID controller. The > symptom is that server will hang on boot after detected acd0, but this > is not reliably reproducible. If you use 'show intrcnt' in ddb do you see an interrupt storm on bce0? We have a local patch at work to fix an interrupt storm on boot with bce(4) that needs further refinement but I don't have any boxes handy to test on. =20 > At our company (we deploy hundreds of 1950/2950 online during last > year), our important local changes that is made for these boxes include: >=20 > - backport my bce(4) changes from RELENG_6. > - backport MSI support, and enable by default. (*) >=20 > *: This is the default behavior for 7.0, I have not encountered the > problem mentioned above on any 1950/2950 boxes so far I have tested. I will enable MSI by default on 6.x now (so will take affect for 6.4). We've also enabled it by default on 6.x at work. =2D-=20 John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:33:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFA916A41A; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erik@cepheid.org) Received: from mail.cepheid.org (aleph.cepheid.org [72.232.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76AF13C458; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erik@cepheid.org) Received: by mail.cepheid.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 5046D9B409B; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:15:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:15:41 -0600 From: Erik Osterholm To: Adrian Chadd Message-ID: <20080110161541.GA2317@aleph.cepheid.org> Mail-Followup-To: Erik Osterholm , Adrian Chadd , Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:04 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 11:56:15PM +0900, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On 10/01/2008, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > > This is the thing though. Its working for the developers, its not > working for the users, so how do you think it'll get fixed? > > > The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain > > unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions they > > report do not exist. Some of our members have even suffered the > > experience that they developed a patch, but it simply was ignored > > or turned down for the reason that it was a "Linux solution". > > Especially frustrating for those among us who have never looked at > > Linux code. > > Whats the PR number? I'm coming in in the middle of this thread, but here's one from July 2006: kern/100839 No one from the FreeBSD community ever responded on it. I thought that I'd even suggested removing the driver entirely, due to this showstopping bug, and removing its listing as compatible, but now I can't find an archived reference, so maybe it was in my head. I love FreeBSD, and I used it on a daily basis, but there's an example, if you're genuinely interested. Erik From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:35:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C429316A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:35:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A366713C45B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:35:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUF00A33SQM0C81@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AGYx4C061980; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:35:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:59 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> To: Mark Linimon Message-id: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:35:17 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mark Linimon wrote: > The FreeBSD license will not be changing. > > How can I say this even though I am not an official spokesman for > the project? Let me explain. > > (a disclaimer first: I am on both the bugbusting team and the ports > management team, and have been for several years. However, I'm > not using either of those as a basis for the above claim. Thus, > everything here is my _own opinion_.) I am not using my work on ports 2.0 (which is and will always remain under a 100% freebsd model) to make my claims just showing that I am not some one throwing rocks at a glass house only (I also live in the house) > > FreeBSD is 3 things. You understand 1.5 of those things. > > - FreeBSD is a codebase. > > - FreeBSD is a community of users and developers. I think the "official" freebsd community (i.e. the direct maintainers of freebsd.org and the foundation) have failed to make it clear that it is *USERS AND DEVELOPERS* not just users and *DEVELOPERS*... what I mean by this is a true community would be quite a bit more responsive (not just "if you have a problem fix it your self") to actual user requests.... this is not to say there is any way to improve the situation without some changes to the culture (very minor ones if you ask me) > > - FreeBSD is a *culture*. Agreed and (see below) I am not suggesting it is wrong or that a fundamental change is needed I am only saying it should me more inclusive. > > It's easy to see FreeBSD as a "codebase". There's a web page, and > CVS scripts, and it all comes together as all these bits on a disk. > It _looks_ like a regular product. But it isn't. The software is > a byproduct of a process. And the whole aim of what I am talking about is improving the process not adding feature X... it is an issue of long term health > > In that process, a community of users and developers works > together. Mostly they share two key goals: > > - To create something "really neat" > > - To have fun. > > That's the *culture*. And that is fine as long as people do not start to use it for *mission critical* apps... once this starts to happen there is real money and real jobs at stake and to some extent people would be reluctant to use a product that is treated as hobby (this is why windows is still the dominate OS... see http://www.detroitguy.com/2007/12/21/the-truth-about-linux/)... do you really want people who think war is fun running the DoD? > > To the extent that culture exists, we will continue to attract new > users and developers, and retain the old ones. If it doesn't, we > won't. > > And: ***every attempt that has been made in the past to change that > culture has failed***. I am not purposing making a change to the fundamental nature of the culture just make it more attractive to potential contributors. > > As well it _should_. And all health cultures are not afraid of making benefical changes. > > Because once the culture goes away, all we have is the pile of > bits. If forced to sign something that said "you _must_ contribute > back", my firm belief is that most of the current developers would > walk. I certainly would -- and I say that as someone who has > contributed a great deal in the past. I simply won't put myself in > a position where I feel _compelled_ to do so. It's my free time, > and I'll do what I want with it, TYVM. That is fine for you but is it fine for the person who relies on the process to run their net... I highly doubt Yahoo! uses freebsd because it feels good... they use it is a solid product and increasing the amount of contribution can't possible be bad in this reguard... btw I know of several people who used to be hard core BSD people but have switched to commericial linux distro's because they are betting their jobs/companies on it > > Our *culture* is a very delicate dance between self-interest and > altruism. (I'm not familiar with anything other than Open Source > that has this unique balance, but possibly amateur radio comes > close.) All this purpose is to state that balance more formally (there is not a single thing I have suggested yet that would force any user/developer visible modifications to how stuff is done {i.e. it is 100% optional based on the licensor's decisions in the matter not the verbage) > > The FreeBSD community has always vehemently protested any attempt > to change the culture by e.g. turning the development process into > something directed by companies. This is a feature. Frankly, if > people want to get told to do something they don't want to do, it > just starts looking like work, and there's a lot better-paying jobs > out there than Open Source will ever be able to generate. Letting > some outside entity direct the project would break the culture. We > would be killing the goose to get the golden egg. And that is the very point reling one some kind of indirect subsidies *INCREASES* your depenance on large donors (companies, gov. agencies, etc. all that have some agenda beyond FreeBSD for FreeBSD's shake)... an other organization I belong to learned this very early on (1939) in it's history when John D. Rockefeller refused to donate more $5,000 because it would ruin the org's purpose... it now has codified this and has been extremely successful ever since... > > Having said that, there is increasing interest from some companies > in funding individuals to work on specific projects. To the extent > that this work can be integrated without hurting the existing > culture, I'm all for it. If we can have some kind of hybrid model: > fine. But if anyone wants to take FreeBSD and make a commercial > enterprise out of it, fine, go ahead and do so, but please do it > somewhere else. See above... it is impossible to take money/work/whatever and expect to have to give nothing it return. > > Now, with that background, let me return to my original point. > > I don't have the power to go change the bits that define the > license. Even if I did, I wouldn't. Even core, who I suppose > theoretically could, wouldn't. If they did, they'd all be kicked > out on their butts in the next election -- if there were any > developers left who hadn't already forked and started a new project > with the bits and the original culture. I have an other item for the fortune file then "Residence to all change (even good change) is the common denominator between most non-Western countries and various BSD efforts". > > So, the license isn't going to change -- and even if it did, the > people that changed it would be left behind as the community simply > moved over to a new name that reflected the original culture. I fail to see how minor change == the end of the world.... Now that being said I grew up in the city that orginal produced the main components of the culture you so love and even to this day hope it could work as envisioned but many factors make that city unsustainable in the long run and FreeBSD exhibits all of them... the primary fault is believing since people in the past have abused money to the harm of society that it is the root of all evil > > I said earlier that you understood 1.5 things. You see the > codebase. You have a poor understanding of the community -- which > is why you feel you've been badly received to this point -- you > simply don't understand how we work together as it is. But the > thing you have absolutely no concept of, for whatever reason, is > the culture. > > Our culture is fine. Our license is fine. If you don't like them: > start your own. The bits are there for the taking. Purely from my own personal self interest I would actually like to see FreeBSD and all other OS's fail... I am making these purposes for idealistic reasons only (and likelly to my material harm a few years down the road) > > Now please, go away and stop putting your plans for whatever > project under whatever culture you're trying to establish, under > our banner, on our mailing lists. See above... if this was plans for my own projects I would do my best to really screw freebsd up as much as possible (I know one can argue that is in fact my goal but it is not) > > Thanks. > > mcl > - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhkkzjRvRjGmHRgQRAkGgAJ9gyCXaqWODJlcT6xGD8fluM8uHIQCfQSD8 8OTjj19Rdblp1bnCT3Ib1qk= =f/nU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:47:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9834016A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:47:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.106]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 412C613C458 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:47:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 45656 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2008 16:47:55 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=R6hdkMT1YWuCP9xOeAor7sCy1GawS/2OFs7f7icB98LWXBMtUGoGALWhpm1k5v0xuCU7tlghUotoV8iIAQ+Uzvv/vv3pDizf1jIjNMFINfUy6H29650bQUDDdZC6aCuDrglLf6eOFaDqfWbWO6r+DptwZF3JWIDBV9l9y+N6cZI=; X-YMail-OSG: 2iVI5jAVM1moLRc0GCsFtWx60MEAlj15k1R7k096Noqm.WZkppxwZy9CIbDg5mktRnoz5GEEGVvFghEsdTXC7HljfWV6GAnsnNbwPgQbLohVDFk94Q-- Received: from [165.21.154.16] by web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:47:55 PST Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:47:55 -0800 (PST) From: Unga To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Subject: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:47:56 -0000 Hi all strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: $ strace pwd execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error Best Regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 16:58:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5CB16A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADA213C46A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:58:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AGw1QR065129; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:58:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0AGw0rR065128; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:58:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:58:00 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801101658.m0AGw0rR065128@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, unga888@yahoo.com ReplyTo: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, unga888@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:58:01 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:07:53 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:58:04 -0000 Unga wrote: > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: Which date exactly? Did you remember to mount /proc? > $ strace pwd > execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error Works fine here on a few weeks old RELENG_7: $ uname -rs FreeBSD 7.0-BETA4-20071214 $ pkg_info | grep strace strace-4.5.5 A portable process tracer $ strace pwd execve(0xbfbfdf6c, [0xbfbfe434], [/* 0 vars */]) = 0 __sysctl([...], 0xbfbfe18c, 0xbfbfe190, NULL, 0) = 0 syscall_477(0, 0x110, 0x3, 0x1000, 0xffffffff, 0, 0) = 0x28074000 munmap(0x28074000, 272) = 0 __sysctl([...], 0x2807077c, 0xbfbfe1f0, NULL, 0) = 0 syscall_477(0, 0x8000, 0x3, 0x1002, 0xffffffff, 0, 0) = 0x28074000 issetugid(0x2806a6cc) = 0 open("/etc/libmap.conf", O_RDONLY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) open("/var/run/ld-elf.so.hints", O_RDONLY) = 3 .. and so on. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "I have stopped reading Stephen King novels. Now I just read C code instead." -- Richard A. O'Keefe From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:16:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E56A16A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6213D13C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:16:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7B46.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.123.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0AHGGYS097617; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:16:17 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AHHR20059152; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AHHHmF068362; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> to: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Linux Unix Consultancy, Munich/Muenchen. User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:59 EST." <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:17 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:16:21 -0000 Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat This list contains the overflow from the other lists about non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to this list. -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:22:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AF416A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jadawin@tuxaco.net) Received: from huppa.tuxaco.net (huppa.tuxaco.net [91.121.19.193]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58C13C442 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jadawin@tuxaco.net) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by huppa.tuxaco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13720ADCF; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:12:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tuxaco.net Received: from huppa.tuxaco.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (huppa.tuxaco.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KkmsHkvyT6kp; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:12:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (ilove.tuxaco.net [82.236.143.160]) (Authenticated sender: jadawin@tuxaco.net) by huppa.tuxaco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED7413FE8; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:12:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:11:32 +0100 From: Philippe =?iso-8859-1?Q?Aud=E9oud?= To: Unga Message-ID: <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:22:58 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > Hi all > > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > $ strace pwd > execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > Best Regards > Unga > hi, with strace 4.5.5 in 6.2 and 7.0-PRERELEASE, i've got the same error on the first exec. But on the second, it works correctly. Exactly the same thing, with strace 4.5.7 Do you have this error each time ? Regards, Philippe -- while (!( succeed = try())); From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:23:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610EA16A421 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from ns.trinitel.com (186.161.36.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com [72.36.161.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4710A13C4D5 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from proton.storspeed.com (209-163-168-124.static.tenantsolutions.com [209.163.168.124] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by ns.trinitel.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AHNX58003164; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:23:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:23:32 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Evans References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ns.trinitel.com Cc: Joao Barros , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:37 -0000 Tom Evans wrote: > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 15:39 +0000, Joao Barros wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2008 12:58 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: >>> Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice development >>> environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many >>> different environments, but that's great - we should write them all up. >>> That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. >> This would be *MOST* welcome :-D > > man 7 development > > It is fairly simple to set up following those instructions. > > > Cheers > > Tom That only covers part of the development process. Once you get that part set up, there are many other things to do. Testing changes on a real system, or testing them on a virtual machine, debugging crashes, etc. Eric From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:40:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D51216A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:40:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE87813C474 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:40:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so434606uge.37 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:40:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=OMQCgguwvJXmgTglYqIQxb5zSQjGNmie66dazW98n5w=; b=kJuLbSg2DSwAFlxDLWliCekzv25+Nr6Yh2NrSqLEmA7S0QfeSoQWFWDfdnY2gPEkFwmwPZ3WLvHJu/H3BiSyxpszBVBMPnaaqMscD381j7v2A51dHDmoM6RQSn2HoxMzBWcTmf3PSXqsaSuCm6lW5al2ltMOB+sw3A7NWTqwFKE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=V7KGwmSzprbid5pdcDBBOUNzhjeJkcmaavL6wtzLtSeaPO4WnWMMg7EU9UUxeUsBWdkj7M51UNElS9NJwCblT0QM0ME3UcGX71eUaE4Ro0OrZHHRhyLCdqinnK1WJz7JnIf7eNfoU0PTfm3U4YmUnK8Dz6C1776fxALNi3MTh1g= Received: by 10.66.236.13 with SMTP id j13mr3451990ugh.30.1199986855710; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p10sm1287567gvf.12.2008.01.10.09.40.54 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:40:55 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: Eric Anderson In-Reply-To: <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-+QcGiOitHqNDPMtS3FjD" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:40:53 +0000 Message-Id: <1199986853.1713.18.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: Joao Barros , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:40:57 -0000 --=-+QcGiOitHqNDPMtS3FjD Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 11:23 -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Tom Evans wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 15:39 +0000, Joao Barros wrote: > >> On Jan 10, 2008 12:58 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: > >>> Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice developm= ent > >>> environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many > >>> different environments, but that's great - we should write them all u= p. > >>> That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. > >> This would be *MOST* welcome :-D > >=20 > > man 7 development > >=20 > > It is fairly simple to set up following those instructions. > >=20 > >=20 > > Cheers > >=20 > > Tom >=20 >=20 > That only covers part of the development process. Once you get that=20 > part set up, there are many other things to do. Testing changes on a=20 > real system, or testing them on a virtual machine, debugging crashes, etc= . >=20 > Eric >=20 That is very true Eric - I for one would like to see how to setup and test kernel changes on a QEMU VM. Debugging crashes is covered by the developers handbook (1). My point wasn't that everything is covered, but there is some very good documentation already out there already. Cheers Tom 1: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/kernel= debug.html --=-+QcGiOitHqNDPMtS3FjD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhlihlcRvFfyds/cRAr8FAJ409B09IjsEMnlWW1rnCRzbW4RAuACfcRRI rbqpoZHK0u9ejBpmh29hMos= =PS8F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-+QcGiOitHqNDPMtS3FjD-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:44:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FE316A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347DF13C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:44:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so682168fka.11 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:44:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=wVkzaIKBiQoCURaB9IhgLp60AVgv+6vFQ3dtokiKo6E=; b=BGLL/h19ACYUKkV3Fq60zzHcW/zyZBI6pWmtJPNTdghlqKxFVyVTF5vbFkxrBgxYsQyxSyWeq5Oc8sIahczeYMSsXn5iAcBij3MeSuttd/twsiR8N6Im2K3kJunoL1vk3sKVzKbdEJ52OdyPPdWqRpZcLa7EhE91eOcvK+43cdU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=JDmzFXIbx87Hm5n4KZHrCGvpQv3REWg4eXXVAcEZYl/4k7ztOuq5jXYOHNG1QL1KaDohqF7BGWQhLpFM3VM23eJMt8fYgDDIGnXz+E33ur/mQRWs/br7G8+3ydDn+aXw1D3U3RmS8yJ8M7uu22LQIWBNWb3vlfRaYUweE35PAJw= Received: by 10.82.149.8 with SMTP id w8mr3608283bud.24.1199987097081; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11sm1271156gve.15.2008.01.10.09.44.55 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:44:56 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: Philippe =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aud=E9oud?= In-Reply-To: <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Fn7huiR/S/D46ldBMQKt" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:44:54 +0000 Message-Id: <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: Unga , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:44:59 -0000 --=-Fn7huiR/S/D46ldBMQKt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Aud=C3=A9oud wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: >=20 > > Hi all > >=20 > > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > $ strace pwd > > execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > >=20 > > Best Regards > > Unga > >=20 >=20 > hi, >=20 > with strace 4.5.5 in 6.2 and 7.0-PRERELEASE, i've got the same error on > the first exec. But on the second, it works correctly. > Exactly the same thing, with strace 4.5.7 >=20 > Do you have this error each time ? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Philippe >=20 Me too root@zoot '17:43:05' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' > # uname -a FreeBSD zoot.mintel.co.uk 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #1: Mon Jan 7 15:47:37 GMT 2008 root@zoot.mintel.co.uk:/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/obj/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/s= rc/sys/ZOOT i386 root@zoot '17:43:11' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' > # strace pwd execve(0xbfbfe73c, [0xbfbfec08], [/* 0 vars */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error root@zoot '17:43:17' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' > # /data2/FreeBSD/CURRENT/ports/devel/strace Repeated executions result in the same result. Cheers Tom --=-Fn7huiR/S/D46ldBMQKt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHhlmQlcRvFfyds/cRAmj6AJ43foyYQgFgdOMZCgupRi2+QA2l5wCcCNpm fmNchsgaQGV0YacgugB70fo= =E611 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Fn7huiR/S/D46ldBMQKt-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:53:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBBF16A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D62513C45A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AHrlv2068723; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0AHrlt4068722; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:53:47 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: Tom Evans Message-ID: <20080110175347.GA68673@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <1199966437.1545.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1199966437.1545.27.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Regular bge watchdog timeouts on 7.0-PRERELEASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:53:47 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:00:37PM +0000, Tom Evans wrote: > I am encountering regular watchdog timeouts on bge: > > Jan 9 08:36:11 zoot kernel: bge0: watchdog timeout -- resetting > Jan 9 08:36:11 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to DOWN > Jan 9 08:36:13 zoot kernel: bge0: link state changed to UP Add the following to /etc/sysctl.conf net.inet.tcp.sendspace=131072 net.inet.tcp.recvspace=131072 net.inet.tcp.path_mtu_discovery=0 net.inet.udp.recvspace=65536 net.inet.raw.recvspace=16384 kern.ipc.nmbclusters=50000 kern.ipc.shm_use_phys=1 net.inet.tcp.rexmit_min=30 And then try this patch cvs diff: Diffing dev/bge Index: dev/bge/if_bge.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/bge/if_bge.c,v retrieving revision 1.199 diff -u -p -r1.199 if_bge.c --- dev/bge/if_bge.c 16 Nov 2007 16:39:27 -0000 1.199 +++ dev/bge/if_bge.c 10 Jan 2008 17:51:38 -0000 @@ -2454,9 +2454,9 @@ bge_attach(device_t dev) /* Set default tuneable values. */ sc->bge_stat_ticks = BGE_TICKS_PER_SEC; sc->bge_rx_coal_ticks = 150; - sc->bge_tx_coal_ticks = 150; - sc->bge_rx_max_coal_bds = 10; - sc->bge_tx_max_coal_bds = 10; + sc->bge_tx_coal_ticks = 1500000; + sc->bge_rx_max_coal_bds = 32; + sc->bge_tx_max_coal_bds = 300; /* Set up ifnet structure */ ifp = sc->bge_ifp = if_alloc(IFT_ETHER); Index: dev/bge/if_bgereg.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/bge/if_bgereg.h,v retrieving revision 1.73 diff -u -p -r1.73 if_bgereg.h --- dev/bge/if_bgereg.h 22 May 2007 19:22:58 -0000 1.73 +++ dev/bge/if_bgereg.h 10 Jan 2008 17:51:38 -0000 @@ -2342,7 +2342,7 @@ struct bge_gib { * allocated for the standard, mini and jumbo receive rings. */ -#define BGE_SSLOTS 256 +#define BGE_SSLOTS 512 #define BGE_MSLOTS 256 #define BGE_JSLOTS 384 -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:01:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C7516A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from services.ipt.ru (services.ipt.ru [194.62.233.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A838213C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from bb.ipt.ru ([194.62.233.89]) by services.ipt.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.54 (FreeBSD)) id 1JD1iw-0004MK-17 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:01:50 +0300 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org References: <43645861@bb.ipt.ru> From: Boris Samorodov Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:00:14 +0300 In-Reply-To: <43645861@bb.ipt.ru> (Boris Samorodov's message of "Tue\, 08 Jan 2008 14\:31\:06 +0300") Message-ID: <52573105@bb.ipt.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: Strange behaviour of stock gcc FreeBSD 7/CURRENT X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:01:52 -0000 Hello List, it's too noisy here today. And may be someone may anwer the question, thanks. On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:31:06 +0300 Boris Samorodov wrote: > I've just noticed some new patches for OpenOffice.org which contains: > ----- > +Strange behaviour of stock gcc of FreeBSD 7. > + > +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so > +/usr/lib/libgcc_s.so > +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 > +libgcc_s.so.1 > +. This sould be > +# gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 > +/lib/libgcc_s.so.1 > + > +However gcc42 from ports behaves correctly; > +and > +# gcc42 -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 > +/usr/local/lib/gcc-4.2.3/gcc/i386-portbld-freebsd7.0/4.2.3/../../../libgcc_s.so.1 > +# gcc42 -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so > +/usr/local/lib/gcc-4.2.3/gcc/i386-portbld-freebsd7.0/4.2.3/../../../libgcc_s.so > +. > ----- > It's true for both i386 and amd64 CURRENT. For i386: > ----- > tb% uname -a > FreeBSD tb.ipt.ru 8.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #0: Sat Jan 5 15:55:54 MSK 2008 root@tb.ipt.ru:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 > tb% gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so > /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so > tb% gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1 > libgcc_s.so.1 > tb% > ----- > Is it a known bug/feature/else? Thanks! WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone & Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:03:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F39E16A473 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:03:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0182B13C44B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:03:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u52so1153157pyb.10 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:03:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=G98FodnNz9WR7U25GUaDYyZPe7mamSQC7nKIvErg5ho=; b=l3t6OwEgEzNE/oMRDM2jSXwl6PDj2LRzUrjBad57uKpQNHnn44LMjzjyI4YSXOVxMWjQSMpeHIEjO6+z284aoRQVAcsT37juyK4sdquov0cwrzZ6c029Vrq4Y9Wdco4Ze3iT8CUi+ZwheV4s0wMUsj6oBjPPGebnu8tb4OwAlnc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XFEdeeNoPBSyu0PLY1Lw2PUxFDDiG1I8HoDA36CzZBlF6M0t40fz/f+8M6KBsAEBDnmA4XALqJJXjFJ4K2CbxZcaINP46d0kZPqgaq33nXkrFfSQVCX9f6ikhpGxydbyIziwSi62+wkaE1MGI7RnjWQ5pHXPnbt+B2tuDkB4ZlA= Received: by 10.65.156.2 with SMTP id i2mr4791509qbo.60.1199986622407; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.105.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:37:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:37:02 -0500 From: "Aryeh Friedman" To: "Julian Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:03:20 -0000 On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: > Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes > warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect > the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain > -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not > to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the > best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and > so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as > upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made > to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to > this list. Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why this is not in -chat@ > -- > Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com > From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:11:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624A416A41B; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:11:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from mxout4.cac.washington.edu (mxout4.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9A013C442; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:11:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout4.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0AIBMZO014601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:11:22 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from [128.208.5.249] (lodovico.cs.washington.edu [128.208.5.249]) (authenticated authid=youshi10) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0AIBLel007023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:11:21 -0800 Message-ID: <47865FDA.1020006@u.washington.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:11:38 -0800 From: Garrett Cooper User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.1.10.94949 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: Tom Evans , Joao Barros , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Addressing the pressing performance / bug issues (was "FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community") X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:11:23 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > Tom Evans wrote: >> On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 15:39 +0000, Joao Barros wrote: >>> On Jan 10, 2008 12:58 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: >>>> Also - a really good (up to date) guide on setting up a nice >>>> development >>>> environment would probably help huge amounts. I know there are many >>>> different environments, but that's great - we should write them all >>>> up. >>>> That would get more developers up-and-running quicker. >>> This would be *MOST* welcome :-D >> >> man 7 development >> >> It is fairly simple to set up following those instructions. >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Tom > > That only covers part of the development process. Once you get that > part set up, there are many other things to do. Testing changes on a > real system, or testing them on a virtual machine, debugging crashes, > etc. > > Eric Hello all, I've been reading the thread a bit (glossed over the licensing political drumming), and I realize that yes there is in fact a need for addressing issues. Would it be a good idea to compile a series of bugs using a prioritization system based on interest (number of stakeholders) and/or funding (say Cisco or Intel devotes X number of dollars for a feature)? I would think that that would be an effective system for gaging priority perhaps. Either way, quick links to a series of bug reports would be a good idea maybe, with some sort of escalation functionality for stale PR/bug reports. Does the current PR system do that? Feedback is more than welcome. Thanks :), -Garrett PS I'll try to keep the topic on track as this is originally written for the purpose of providing solutions, as opposed to just discuss "political fluff", as it were. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:18:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCCB16A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:18:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7526613C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:18:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0AII362011601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:18:05 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0AII2Nm056152; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:18:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0AII0xv056147; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:18:00 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:18:00 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Juergen.Dankoweit@FreeBSD-Onkel.de Message-ID: <20080110181800.GS4442@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <1199978227.43531.2.camel@primergy470.juergendankoweit.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1199978227.43531.2.camel@primergy470.juergendankoweit.net> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:18:13 -0000 --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 04:17:07PM +0100, Juergen Dankoweit wrote: >>> but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a "= Linux >>> solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never loo= ked at >>> Linux code. >>=20 >> Whats the PR number? > >PR-Number: 114597 There's nothing in that PR history that suggests it has been rejected as a 'Linux solution' and there's no fix included. There is a patch that allows individual SCSI adapters to be disabled but that doesn't really fix anything because the SCSI adapters are still unusable. I would also suggest that the original PR is fairly devoid of useful information - there's no indication of the architecture being used, the model(s) of card that is causing the problem, whether it works with only one card installed etc. This required several round-trips via mjacob before any progress at all could be made. Lack of developer time is a serious issue with FreeBSD and the more time that has to be spent chasing up information that should have been in the original PR, the less time they have to actually fix the problem. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhmFY/opHv/APuIcRArR5AJwICsdu0iKBYUY4gnADYo6a7hl9+wCePttj Hd4pnOa16EAYJi6MUggoqU0= =gHCz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:57:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0087C16A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:57:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rdivacky@vlk.vlakno.cz) Received: from vlakno.cz (vlk.vlakno.cz [62.168.28.247]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E20413C45A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:57:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rdivacky@vlk.vlakno.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vlakno.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE0066B964; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:39:50 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at vlakno.cz Received: from vlakno.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vlk.vlakno.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKiHm0YyUuGJ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:39:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from vlk.vlakno.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vlakno.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C790D66B951; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:39:39 +0100 (CET) Received: (from rdivacky@localhost) by vlk.vlakno.cz (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id m0AIddTb086455; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:39:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from rdivacky) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:39:39 +0100 From: Roman Divacky To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20080110183939.GA84899@freebsd.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <88854.1199953554@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:57:48 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 08:25:54AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de>, Dominic Fandrey writes: > > >The first problem is [...] > > No. > > The first problem FreeBSD has, is that the users do not financially > support enough full-time developers. the freebsd foundation raised $400,000 in 2007. I think fbsd has the money to support some developer(s)... netbsd seems to have gone this way (sponsoring Andrew Doran) and the code flows roman From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 19:13:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA93616A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:13:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outE.internet-mail-service.net (outE.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8356413C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:13:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:59:31 -0800 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29023126E94; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:59:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:59:54 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Evans References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Unga , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?B?UGhpbGlwcGUgQXVkw6lvdWQ=?= Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:13:45 -0000 Tom Evans wrote: > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Audéoud wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: >>> $ strace pwd >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? >>> >>> Best Regards >>> Unga >>> >> hi, >> >> with strace 4.5.5 in 6.2 and 7.0-PRERELEASE, i've got the same error on >> the first exec. But on the second, it works correctly. >> Exactly the same thing, with strace 4.5.7 >> >> Do you have this error each time >> >> Regards, >> >> Philippe >> > > Me too > > root@zoot '17:43:05' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' >> # uname -a > FreeBSD zoot.mintel.co.uk 7.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #1: Mon > Jan 7 15:47:37 GMT 2008 > root@zoot.mintel.co.uk:/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/obj/data2/FreeBSD/RELENG_7/src/sys/ZOOT i386 > root@zoot '17:43:11' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' >> # strace pwd > execve(0xbfbfe73c, [0xbfbfec08], [/* 0 vars */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output > error > root@zoot '17:43:17' '/usr/ports/devel/strace' >> # /data2/FreeBSD/CURRENT/ports/devel/strace > > Repeated executions result in the same result. > > Cheers > > Tom From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 19:16:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ADF16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:16:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A13313C442 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:16:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DF1136E0002 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:16:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4736B12CD for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:16:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:15:48 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:16:02 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Julian Elischer spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:59:54 -0800: > Tom Evans wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Audéoud wrote: > >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all > >>> > >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > >>> $ strace pwd > >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? I tried to hide, really. But this is a perfect example of what the bsdforen.de discussion is about. q.e.d. timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhm7lUY3eBSqOgOMRCpFpAJ9apU6lQEEEXKn6P42ll6CC/4el4wCfU2yG VMmF4ATJQ+RxM6ANEYn+kQg= =/6iS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 19:34:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A3916A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.231]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7AB13C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so359851wra.13 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=0QtKtLgSWCn79qpIy6kMDfvJMN7teiRZxyWnTM0IN4c=; b=kAF3Jm49KA/tbCwjM6nyrWMhC8YDoBK8nw9dUPrqpEp6mc27DBTNHtpAJY4JG8AsrQwJIkGK/nw7D7e7Gi7ns1Cptycqm5cqiqLaxybzVbRgNU0RLilSh0ac+3minuI9gstm7yt67JtriunhkyvUXMGykdIiV6/mXAPdCCgZatA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JaBjgH/OBI2l3me+sjE2SJ2Fvy+UX5s4g+yK/v4UmM+j5MnRJbAKqszGWznBeo1MaZl5xR6x/oSDEb5Vwq73zjOq9zGuaiBXH7+kEWc1b2eToIiVkkYh6fbnywBILhNlPRpRUkXPuPsvPkq2P+XfUsuNZJv6KM17Lhb1NEYm90Q= Received: by 10.142.47.6 with SMTP id u6mr1267228wfu.159.1199993685782; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.1 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:45 +0000 From: "Paul B. Mahol" To: "Timo Schoeler" In-Reply-To: <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:48 -0000 Strace from ports on 8.0 current works without problems. BTW, have a nice day. On 1/10/08, Timo Schoeler wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Thus Julian Elischer spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 > 10:59:54 -0800: > > > Tom Evans wrote: > > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Aud=E9oud wrote: > > >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi all > > >>> > > >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > >>> $ strace pwd > > >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > > > > and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? > > I tried to hide, really. But this is a perfect example of what the > bsdforen.de discussion is about. > > q.e.d. > > timo > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) > > iD8DBQFHhm7lUY3eBSqOgOMRCpFpAJ9apU6lQEEEXKn6P42ll6CC/4el4wCfU2yG > VMmF4ATJQ+RxM6ANEYn+kQg=3D > =3D/6iS > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " > From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 19:50:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2550816A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:50:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from smtp3.freeserve.com (smtp3.wanadoo.co.uk [193.252.22.156]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9BA13C455 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:50:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darranc@deejc.net) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9A74A700008D; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:50:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from Vostro (unknown [91.104.78.226]) by mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5E7F8700008C; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:50:41 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20080110195041387.5E7F8700008C@mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com From: "Darran" To: "'Scot Hetzel'" References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com><003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro><790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> <790a9fff0801100559k42cf4c33ha93ae50ed9d27ac0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:50:39 -0000 Message-ID: <000001c853c2$13e5d790$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0801100559k42cf4c33ha93ae50ed9d27ac0@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AchTkQ/Fq1qyzjdMTIWf3X6PvfqAqAAMJzQg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:50:46 -0000 Thanks Scot I tried this one and I still don't get any connection showing when I look in ifconfig -a I ran ndisgen and bcmwl5.inf and bcmwl564.sys which created bcmwl564_sys.ko, I kldload'ed it and nothing .. even in the message's I don't see the usual Dell entry when the driver loads. Darran http://www.deejc.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Scot Hetzel Sent: 10 January 2008 13:59 To: Darran Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 I also get the same panic when I use the same driver from HP's web site. ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp34001-34500/sp34152.exe The version of the failing driver SP34152 (HP) and R151519 (Dell) is 4.100.15.5 (md5 checksum of bcmwl564.sys is the same). I use version 4.40.19.0 available from HP at: ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp33001-33500/sp33008.exe This version should also work on your Dell system. Scot _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 19:51:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8437116A4CC for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D4113C45A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:51:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.8q) with ESMTP id 228049247-1834499 for multiple; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AJoshG005939; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:50:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:45:18 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801101345.18691.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:50:56 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5470/Thu Jan 10 09:49:37 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Unga Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:51:03 -0000 On Thursday 10 January 2008 11:47:55 am Unga wrote: > Hi all > > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > $ strace pwd > execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > Best Regards > Unga I have lots of patches to strace at work to make it autogenerate most of its tables and support amd64 (including i386 on amd64) as well as making it reliably work in the fork-a-new-process case. I just don't have time to work on getting them into the port. I think you are running into the latter issue and I largely fixed it by using the same strategy in strace that truss now uses for the fork-a-new-process case. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:02:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C175C16A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:02:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4712A13C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:02:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.8q) with ESMTP id 228052825-1834499 for multiple; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:03:47 -0500 Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AK2DK2006062; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:02:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:02:18 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200801101345.18691.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200801101345.18691.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801101502.21286.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:02:14 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5471/Thu Jan 10 13:35:34 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Unga , tabthorpe@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:02:23 -0000 On Thursday 10 January 2008 01:45:18 pm John Baldwin wrote: > On Thursday 10 January 2008 11:47:55 am Unga wrote: > > Hi all > > > > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > $ strace pwd > > execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > > Best Regards > > Unga > > I have lots of patches to strace at work to make it autogenerate most of its > tables and support amd64 (including i386 on amd64) as well as making it > reliably work in the fork-a-new-process case. I just don't have time to > work on getting them into the port. I think you are running into the latter > issue and I largely fixed it by using the same strategy in strace that truss > now uses for the fork-a-new-process case. You can find my strace patches at www.freebsd.org/~jhb/patches/strace.patch this has been tested on 4.x, 6.x, and 7.x. The 'ymakefile' is what we use to actually build strace and it invokes several scripts to build several of the tables (like the ioctl, errno, and syscall tables) at build-time from the current machine rather than trying to provide hardcoded versions that would have had to have a maze of #ifdef's to handle different versions and constant updates for new syscalls, etc. It is relative to strace-4.5.1. You can basically apply the patch to the 4.5.1 tarball and do 'make -f ymakefile' to get an strace binary. Again, I don't have time to get this into the port or even better, upstream into the strace sources, but I've cc'd the devel/strace maintainer if he wants to look at it. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:40:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3EE16A47A; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:40:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EB913C4EE; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:40:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <478682D2.8030006@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:40:50 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erik Osterholm , Adrian Chadd , Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110161541.GA2317@aleph.cepheid.org> In-Reply-To: <20080110161541.GA2317@aleph.cepheid.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:40:52 -0000 Erik Osterholm wrote: > On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 11:56:15PM +0900, Adrian Chadd wrote: >> On 10/01/2008, Dominic Fandrey wrote: >> >> This is the thing though. Its working for the developers, its not >> working for the users, so how do you think it'll get fixed? >> >>> The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain >>> unanswered or the reporters are told that the regressions they >>> report do not exist. Some of our members have even suffered the >>> experience that they developed a patch, but it simply was ignored >>> or turned down for the reason that it was a "Linux solution". >>> Especially frustrating for those among us who have never looked at >>> Linux code. >> Whats the PR number? > > I'm coming in in the middle of this thread, but here's one from July > 2006: > kern/100839 > > No one from the FreeBSD community ever responded on it. I thought > that I'd even suggested removing the driver entirely, due to this > showstopping bug, and removing its listing as compatible, but now I > can't find an archived reference, so maybe it was in my head. > > I love FreeBSD, and I used it on a daily basis, but there's an > example, if you're genuinely interested. > > Erik Yeah, that's a pretty good example of hardware with no real maintainer in the FreeBSD community. Actually it does look like yongari@ worked on it a couple of months ago, so you might want to bring it to his attention. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:42:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A4516A469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:42:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from martin_voros@yahoo.com) Received: from web55514.mail.re4.yahoo.com (web55514.mail.re4.yahoo.com [206.190.58.223]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03C7613C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:42:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from martin_voros@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 1521 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2008 20:42:20 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=Z0inDIYrOlo2stJk4tZFlSDr9hUXrEq3yF0P8F9n7zqDSVmr/gwJfHgNR6w660jnUCEHNuBw3tRzxnBiO4QtJnolg9Do7ENZMfZDwQW9ao2qurpubcFzS+2pNg+p5keC1QnPOmuKdJFgIaqdzLujj8PVAKMLHyq71iLEVswgaAE=; X-YMail-OSG: MYdpgSMVM1nodhaYS97.NzS6qXcRBkgtj9ooUau9dVeZ6dWgs0QZoV9RaIOOHsOvrlcfNDhZngjlMiMF3YvK.YlUJqbCGaQEhROK.B4YcZWviXV0UA4- Received: from [77.247.224.21] by web55514.mail.re4.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:42:20 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/818.31 YahooMailWebService/0.7.158.1 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:42:20 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Voros To: Attilio Rao , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org, fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <806000.98905.qm@web55514.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Cc: Subject: Re: [PATCH] lockmgr and VFS plans X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:42:22 -0000 ----- Original Message ---- > From: Attilio Rao > To: current@freebsd.org; arch@freebsd.org; fs@freebsd.org > Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 3:19:35 PM > Subject: [PATCH] lockmgr and VFS plans > > ........... > What I'm looking for is: > - objections to this > - testers (even if a small crowd alredy offered to test this patch) > > I test-compiled and runned LINT with this patch and it works > perfectly, but a wider audience would be better. Hi Attilio I compiled it without any problems. Now I'm running on it without any problems on my testing installation. It seems that it works fine. Martin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:57:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6418C16A420 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: from outcold.yadt.co.uk (outcold.yadt.co.uk [81.187.204.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DF613C457 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by outcold.yadt.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876F513B3; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:41 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at yadt.co.uk Received: from outcold.yadt.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (outcold.yadt.co.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A8mkpM-0+gqN; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: by outcold.yadt.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D562F13AB; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:38 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:38 +0000 From: David Taylor To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080110205738.GA22261@outcold.yadt.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <90133.1199970620@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:57:43 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >> BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd > >> license it would be something as simple as: > >> > >> "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to > >> payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at > >> http://......". > > > > No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! > > Which part of "(if any)" is not clear... i.e. the licensor is > completely free to waive the requirment (i.e. identical to the current > license) My one and only post to this thread: It is clearly not identical to the current license as it imposes an additional burden upon any user of the licensed work. They must check what "payment" they are required to make. Plus what happens if the website changes? More fundamentally it completely undermines the entire point of the BSD licence. -- David Taylor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:58:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5434316A41B for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tabthorpe@freebsd.org) Received: from tbaytel.net (front2-nwconx.tbaytel.net [216.211.26.163]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34CE13C447 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:58:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tabthorpe@freebsd.org) X-Scanned-by-Cloudmark: Yes X-Spam-Score: 0.000000 Received: from goodking.goodking.ca (account thomasa@tbaytel.net [216.26.210.58] verified) by front2.tbaytel.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 98998518 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:42:54 -0500 From: Thomas Abthorpe Organization: FreeBSD Ports Committer To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:42:42 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-Face: /|[9,PbEOB6g>?2^*Sc|"~6:Ro"O>Nv\Rfkv\42g)=?utf-8?q?TuAYG=26+bD=5CpCJTX31s=5Fp=7Bc7=5D5a=2ED=2E=0A=09Y?=@QddKu_I[XB8; euK=^[=L1I#]rgi[0jgz^4qCTwlj]3kJ)]vc}O"HrA14hN)=?utf-8?q?aXewJPTi=7C=0A=09Pt=7BS3=23Vw4x-?="/:& Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: tabthorpe@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:58:04 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 January 2008 14:15:48 Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Julian Elischer spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 > > 10:59:54 -0800: > > Tom Evans wrote: > > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Audéoud wrote: > > >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > > >>> Hi all > > >>> > > >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > >>> $ strace pwd > > >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > > and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? > > I tried to hide, really. But this is a perfect example of what the > bsdforen.de discussion is about. > > q.e.d. > > timo > Before we start signalling the apocolypse of FreeBSD because an out of date port was not updated on somebodies system, let us gather our wits about us. I am the maintainer of strace and I came in late on this thread. The port was updated last on December 30, and AFAIK 4.5.7 works on supported platforms. I may be some naive Canadian kid, however, the last time I checked, accepted practises what they are, if you have an issue/problem/concern with a port, you follow up with the port maintainer first. Unfortunately, I only found out about this issue via a pop-up in IRC, informing me there was something brewing in -current, and I should check it out. I have read John Baldwin's email about patches he has, and now that I know, I will investigate. Anyway, I will step out of the pulpit now. Thomas - -- Thomas Abthorpe | FreeBSD Ports Committer tabthorpe@FreeBSD.org | http://people.freebsd.org/~tabthorpe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhoNM5Gm/jNBp8qARAvy9AJ9TJUYzRO+f2fCBWlrM70LqP5v3wgCghoB9 FWghIvW1NsUJpZTGx4N9iNI= =sndQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:59:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB8316A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA77413C4D5 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AA0136E0002; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E5FA28BAA; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:31 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: "Paul B. Mahol" Message-Id: <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:30 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus "Paul B. Mahol" spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:45 +0000: > Strace from ports on 8.0 current works without problems. Part of the discussion on bsdforen.de was some people complaining that parts of the base system (as well as [important] ports) do not work, and are maintained very badly due to 'no interest'. As already appeared in this discussion here, it would be nice to be more 'conservative'; this word has it's origin in latin language, com servare, to preserve; "to protect from loss or harm". So a 'conservative development model' (the BSDs where typically known for) leads to a well functioning environment. The only BSD I know of where this really *is* the case is OpenBSD. NetBSD, e.g., had times where their tree didn't build (especially for me between 3.99.3 and 3.99.15 on macppc). FreeBSD has a damn high number of open/unfixed PRs, and people complain more and more that this harms them in several ways. Nobody wants to rant, it's just about _improvement_. Improvement, or the idea of how to improve something (FreeBSD), needs user feedback. This is a fact that should be known by every developer/coder/hacker on this planet (but obviously isn't, as one can experience almost every day). The problem here is that some developers don't get this. They think someone wants to rant or p*ss them off. *This* is a real problem. I've been using NetBSD and OpenBSD for almost 15 years now (I joined very early), FreeBSD for almost nine or ten years. During this period of time, unfortunately, only OpenBSD kept its promises. They are really strong with their ideals, but suffer from other problems (bad performance, bad SMP stack, and a jackass leader). NetBSD has (had?) a problem to justify its very close relationship to Wasabi Systems, Inc. FreeBSD seems to decay from release to release; don't get me wrong, I *do* like new features, enhances SMP, ZFS, all this stuff, no problem. *BUT* please don't forget the basis. It wouldn't surprise me if ls(1) doesn't work when 8.0 is released. This is a real problem. Version numbering is absolutely unimportant. FreeBSD has a phantastic reputation as super stable (server) OS. This is absolutely independent from both version numbers and features implemented. Wearing my license-ignoring head, 'if I want features, I run Linux'. Seriously. Up to now, we only use BSD-based software in-house or at customers, or we use commercial Unices (AIX, Solaris, et al). We don't like Linux. But with the rate of decay of the last months and years almost throughout the BSD family, we're forced to go commercial. Set OpenBSD aside, I feel a gigantic lack of leadership. > BTW, have a nice day. Thanks, have a nice day, too. :) Best regards, Timo > On 1/10/08, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA512 > > > > Thus Julian Elischer spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 > > 10:59:54 -0800: > > > > > Tom Evans wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Audéoud wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi all > > > >>> > > > >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > > >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > > >>> $ strace pwd > > > >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > > >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > > > > > > > and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? > > > > I tried to hide, really. But this is a perfect example of what the > > bsdforen.de discussion is about. > > > > q.e.d. > > > > timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhoc0UY3eBSqOgOMRCrIQAJ9SGjpllSd3RBoR32jafx0XaKJy6QCfSIi+ /f/TymjBzS1H9VH/OVcWR/8= =2k0g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 21:00:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4727716A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:00:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bates@telehouse.com) Received: from mail.telehouse.com (mail.telehouse.com [209.137.140.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D1013C4DB for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:00:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bates@telehouse.com) Received: from [172.18.1.139] (BatesiBook.telehouse.com [172.18.1.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.telehouse.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC6187FE4 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:48:32 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7A9D2D82-BF04-446A-9A50-A53F6167FFD2@telehouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Richard Bates Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:48:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Subject: SAN for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:00:03 -0000 Doing prelim on hardware requirements, and would like to konw. Is anyone running a SAN from FreeBSD? What hardware are you using? ================================ === Richard Bates === TELEHOUSE America ================================ From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 21:02:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B83316A476 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:02:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1205113C46A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:02:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8CE46CF3; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:02:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:02:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <47865FDA.1020006@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <20080110205452.M4766@fledge.watson.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <4786167D.7060202@freebsd.org> <70e8236f0801100739r4ea9f4a0nf8734d8f3bb9f31e@mail.gmail.com> <1199981082.1713.6.camel@localhost> <47865494.7030304@freebsd.org> <47865FDA.1020006@u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Tom Evans , Joao Barros , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Addressing the pressing performance / bug issues (was "FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community") X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:02:24 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Garrett Cooper wrote: > I've been reading the thread a bit (glossed over the licensing political > drumming), and I realize that yes there is in fact a need for addressing > issues. Would it be a good idea to compile a series of bugs using a > prioritization system based on interest (number of stakeholders) and/or > funding (say Cisco or Intel devotes X number of dollars for a feature)? I > would think that that would be an effective system for gaging priority > perhaps. I suspect that of all the stakeholders in the community, the Ciscos, Junipers, etc, of the world are the ones who will get their problems addressed most quickly, on the basis that while OS developers are expensive, they're not all that expensive. The people who tend to do least well are the individual end-users who don't have the technical know-how to engage with developers who have, on occasion, been known to have poor personal communications skills, not to mention a day job. The most common classes of problems that tend to go unsolved are the ones involving pseudo-random combinations of hardware not in the hands of developers, less common configurations using networking tehnologies that aren't as widely deployed, and aging hardware -- the precise types of problems that big companies try to avoid (especially minimizing hardware footprint). It seems to me that we have structural, procedural, and social areas that need addressing with respect to how bug reports are handled. We need to manage and present them better (no one needs to rant about GNATS, we all know it leaves much to be desired), and we need to build up a better social model regarding how we handle reports. For example, how about we have a web page that shows the most recent 50 GNATS bug reports in a single click? Or a way for the RE team to flag potentially interesting issues for releases so that developers (and end-users) can look for things to work on? The problems are similar to problems regarding code review: how can we get people interested and engaged in debugging problems, and how can we improve the tools to make it happen more smoothly? I like the idea of Bugathons, we should see if we can't get more people involved in that as well. Finally, I think there's a set of people in the FreeBSD project who really deserve our thanks -- that's the people (and there are several) who watch new bug reports come into GNATS and attempt to sort them, triage them in various ways. Turning "my machine crashed" into a usable bug report requires a lot of dedication from these folks, and we should be doing whatever we can to support and help them, including trying to find more volunteers to work on that project. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 21:16:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD2F16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:16:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F000513C459 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A9146D11; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:16:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:16:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Message-ID: <20080110210844.J4766@fledge.watson.org> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:16:58 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > So a 'conservative development model' (the BSDs where typically known for) > leads to a well functioning environment. The only BSD I know of where this > really *is* the case is OpenBSD. NetBSD, e.g., had times where their tree > didn't build (especially for me between 3.99.3 and 3.99.15 on macppc). > FreeBSD has a damn high number of open/unfixed PRs, and people complain more > and more that this harms them in several ways. I think you make a number of important points, but I want to make one observation regarding PR count: the number of problem reports doesn't correspond directly with the number of bugs in the system, it also tracks the number of users of the system. I don't think anyone is really in a position to directly evaluate the relative "bugginess" of various systems in an objective way, but I think I would probably be right if I claimed that FreeBSD has a lot greater installation diversity and end-user exposure than OpenBSD or NetBSD, and this is certainly a contributing factor to our bug report situation. Derived systems like PC-BSD have only increased that exposure, especially in the desktop hardware space. I know that Mark Linimon has done quite a bit of analysis of the state of the PRs, especially as to which ones stay open vs. which ones get closed, and may be able to offer some insight. I have a vague recollection that last time around, he reported essentially linear growth in open kernel bug reports, and essentially stable ports PRs, but I've not really seen stats on how bug reports against the base system get closed. For example, I'm not sure we make a "fixed" vs "closed" distinction, which we'd need in order to do a good analysis. FWIW, there are quite a few of us who are interested in improving the daignosis of problems. My recent work involving DDB textdumps was entirely about improving our level of automation for kernel crashes, which should allow us to do a lot less hand-holding in gathering bug reports (and, ideally, therefore improve our report handling rate). While there are social elements at work here that aren't addressed by purely technical solutions, there is also a lot of room for the development of technical solutions here as well. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 22:08:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B434216A469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:08:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F31213C458 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:08:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so894309fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=qS9pQPM+fT5RpuWri1OccGJmp0y3eTtmIfcekCnPeYg=; b=rHVoh0/OZHrTV1IjFpUwhypRMVudJRm9I96QYYbF9lvxs7iGhmG0QtVUDsuLhD+jQuf0i+BNmEOkbqBCnCRM4N4S+fKO5NzKgqLDMvlO/msgO3sCCaPMZ9KXVx2mxJLalkwcl30oJD0TP5l2xp4g8zZ9OWQTzARZ+Ribmvb+ikY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nfkcYcPPk6QdhmOR0gAFvGiOa5i1whtyKyVV2QCC1kVZiZlzZw2hhAAwOYJ/XkMier9cMGiM0ZpLQRnkVspbIMAJ4hGIvnOrq44cLMJ3PldOwI6VZz9Vx8ziiDS799jFbJbewdZhjrerm74u2l/pMwKX7CYo6ex7m1QSdb7x3fg= Received: by 10.86.82.16 with SMTP id f16mr2250189fgb.60.1200002880505; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.3.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0801101408me7eaaa1ycfb6a5b9f26dfa9c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:08:00 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: Darran In-Reply-To: <000001c853c2$13e5d790$6501a8c0@Vostro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <319b588b0801060139m5e99e857of3a8f44ab3d2e078@mail.gmail.com> <003401c85059$581790f0$6501a8c0@Vostro> <790a9fff0801092316s44f07257ne6ac48a8c9a09f97@mail.gmail.com> <790a9fff0801100559k42cf4c33ha93ae50ed9d27ac0@mail.gmail.com> <000001c853c2$13e5d790$6501a8c0@Vostro> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hung laptop now will not boot 7.0-RC1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:08:03 -0000 On 1/10/08, Darran wrote: > Thanks Scot I tried this one and I still don't get any connection showing > when I look in ifconfig -a > > I ran ndisgen and bcmwl5.inf and bcmwl564.sys which created bcmwl564_sys.ko, > I kldload'ed it and nothing .. even in the message's I don't see the usual > Dell entry when the driver loads. > Do you have an entry similar to this in your dmesg? ndis0: mem 0xc0204000-0xc0205fff irq 21 at device 2.0 on pci6 Scot From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 22:47:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297E816A468 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:47:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrh29@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu) Received: from beta.eecs.cwru.edu (beta.EECS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.150.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1393513C4EF for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:47:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrh29@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu) Received: from volatile.engineering.cwru.edu ([::ffff:129.22.150.118]) by beta.eecs.cwru.edu with esmtp; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:53:48 -0500 id 000AC804.47865BAC.00003B70 Received: (nullmailer pid 16822 invoked by uid 4269); Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:00:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:00:10 -0500 From: jrh29@alumni.cwru.edu To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:47:49 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 11:34:59AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > And that is fine as long as people do not start to use it for *mission > critical* apps... once this starts to happen there is real money and > real jobs at stake and to some extent people would be reluctant to use > a product that is treated as hobby (this is why windows is still the > dominate OS... see > http://www.detroitguy.com/2007/12/21/the-truth-about-linux/)... do you > really want people who think war is fun running the DoD? So your entire purpose of starting this thread is to say that "FreeBSD will only be commercially viable if it's done the commercial way"? Sorry, but proof that it's not the case exists in many places, you've named one yourself -- Yahoo!. Juniper, Apple, Cisco, and many others also use FreeBSD and base their entire revenue stream on products based on FreeBSD, and other BSD, code. If I had more time available, I would contribute to FreeBSD. As it stands I have many other projects that are longer in the making. However, I have submitted patches and bug reports, and they're all answered in a reasonable time, or filed away for when developers get enough time to look at them. Guess what -- the Linux kernel is developed the exact same way. If you submit a bug report, there's no guarantee that it will be responded to and fixed immediately, even though a large number of the contributors _are_ paid by RedHat, SuSE, Mandriva, etc. It just isn't possible. > > Purely from my own personal self interest I would actually like to see > FreeBSD and all other OS's fail... I am making these purposes for > idealistic reasons only (and likelly to my material harm a few years > down the road) > I think we can all see this appears to be your ultimate goal, you're taking a pretty heavy-handed approach to reaching it too. > > > > Now please, go away and stop putting your plans for whatever > > project under whatever culture you're trying to establish, under > > our banner, on our mailing lists. I second, third, and fourth this. - Justin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 22:48:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8300E16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484AA13C469 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C00417106; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0AMmQMS001365; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:26 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:17:45 EST." <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1364.1200005306@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:48:29 -0000 In message <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! > >Which part of "(if any)" is not clear... i.e. the licensor is >completely free to waive the requirment (i.e. identical to the current >license) Which part of "no" was not clear ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 23:08:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0538116A418 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:08:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beech@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd.alaskaparadise.com (freebsd.alaskaparadise.com [208.79.80.117]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6AD13C459 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:08:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beech@freebsd.org) Received: from 137-42-178-69.gci.net (137-42-178-69.gci.net [69.178.42.137]) by freebsd.alaskaparadise.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2D523835A9; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:08:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Beech Rintoul To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:08:02 -0900 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <47865FDA.1020006@u.washington.edu> <20080110205452.M4766@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080110205452.M4766@fledge.watson.org> X-Face: jC2w\k*Q1\0DA2Q0Eh&BrP/Rt2M,^2O#R07VoT98m*>miQF9%Bi9vy`F6cPjwEe?m,)=?utf-8?q?2=0A=09X=3FM=5C=3AOE9QgZ?="xT3/n3,3MJ7N=Cfkmi%f(w^~X"SUxn>; 27NO; C+)g[7J`$G*SN>{<=?utf-8?q?O=3Bg7=7C=0A=09o=7D=265A=5D4?=@7D`=Eb@Zs1Ln814?]|k@'bG=.Ca"[|8+_.OsNAo8!#?4u MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801101408.06265.beech@freebsd.org> Cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Addressing the pressing performance / bug issues (was "FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community") X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Beech Rintoul List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:08:11 -0000 On Thursday 10 January 2008, Robert Watson said: > I like the idea of Bugathons, we should see if we can't get > more people involved in that as well. Actually several of us are planning to have one soon. Right now we're trying to get as many committers involved as we can, but any and all help from maintainers / coders is equally welcome. We'll post a notice when we have a date (or dates) that people can agree on. Beech -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Beech Rintoul - FreeBSD Developer - beech@FreeBSD.org /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | FreeBSD Since 4.x \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | http://www.freebsd.org X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Latest Release: / \ - http://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/6.2R/announce.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 23:38:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FBD16A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:38:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F76913C468 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:38:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925F046DC9; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:37:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:37:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Beech Rintoul In-Reply-To: <200801101408.06265.beech@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20080110233024.W4766@fledge.watson.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <47865FDA.1020006@u.washington.edu> <20080110205452.M4766@fledge.watson.org> <200801101408.06265.beech@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Addressing the pressing performance / bug issues (was "FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community") X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:38:00 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Beech Rintoul wrote: > On Thursday 10 January 2008, Robert Watson said: > > I like the idea of Bugathons, we should see if we can't get more people > > involved in that as well. > > Actually several of us are planning to have one soon. Right now we're trying > to get as many committers involved as we can, but any and all help from > maintainers / coders is equally welcome. We'll post a notice when we have a > date (or dates) that people can agree on. I wonder if there should just be a cron'd announcement a couple of times a month :-). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 23:39:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B486516A46E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gowmo@yahoo.com.br) Received: from web33606.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web33606.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B63313C46E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gowmo@yahoo.com.br) Received: (qmail 71100 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2008 23:39:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com.br; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=zuOC22ghg1ZK+prvDSfHrvceVsqKgHT+1o+mL6IQpkDuetDesWKnwJD7x3GoQ+ADL4c7hJHqolPdjPtQpXEMCN5gMtRjojxSNpuwR7G54bCP9/849Tz2Ym7HW5RsCf7oco8lTkTx86QvNvvkjk77x6RqPZcuahyuiWPWpdFTNTA=; X-YMail-OSG: nFnR8E4VM1kOXdC3_oeUEzL6fEHl3W_Hl7ka8sQTESkdaFxA.EHe7ozyIUkibMpLX_CPyZnuchJnDiKyshCg3UbIDB7Uh5n8Hqg3kBIOij0m56w51SFVRVgVuhXvTQ-- Received: from [201.2.7.239] by web33606.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:39:30 ART Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:39:30 -0300 (ART) From: Wildes Miranda To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" In-Reply-To: <478487F2.9000907@yandex.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <238661.70541.qm@web33606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Xin LI , S?ren Schmidt Subject: Re: ATI SB600/700/800 tester wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:39:31 -0000 --- "Andrey V. Elsukov" escreveu: > Wildes Miranda wrote: > >> There was a lot of fixes and changes. > >> And now it mostly doesn't needed. Do you have > some > >> troubles? > > > > Yes, i think. I haven't the option to set AHCI on > the > > BIOS as you suggested, and my trouble is that > sata > > disk just operate on UDMA33 mode. > > i wish to use this box for java development, with > many > > disk access on compilation process and tomcat > > environment. I think that this box will be more > fast > > with max mode allowed by disk controller. > > Hi, > > please, try attached patch (not tested). > the patch works, but i didn't tested the workload yet. User operations is working fine. This patch will be commited ? This patch will be needed if could AHCI mode be set by other way , as loader ? is attached dmesg and pciconf information. thanks for helping. Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail, o único sem limite de espaço para armazenamento! http://br.mail.yahoo.com/ From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 23:43:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0F816A417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gowmo@yahoo.com.br) Received: from web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7513113C467 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gowmo@yahoo.com.br) Received: (qmail 7711 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2008 23:43:38 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com.br; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=h8nG/AUUaFPgOkALVMNSMQmzEIlj1/rbzU6IbsVIOpVPsGOj5qNEzh0yvFBcxMwxCzz22hodNe95oVA5li9s6UbX/yBWOyfNrzHdXB5LwwlpJKnltEN6ff02RGU/OWcIzL5LB4t2n8nJ6CsdvgNOXVnRHohHm81W9X9CSNzp7K4=; X-YMail-OSG: N6KahlgVM1kz8yjiY3WSB1PUqTcgx3vugI5Rjaq52C0eZQllpp8m0Xt6fR09f_V2A9QSgKm1IIIQjPQEi4t6ndy.cZ79V6XUKwkNfrHaA6ZckQJJSnUc5QQm4KQOXQ-- Received: from [201.2.7.239] by web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:43:38 ART Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:43:38 -0300 (ART) From: Wildes Miranda To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" In-Reply-To: <478487F2.9000907@yandex.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-397935391-1200008618=:6718" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <674705.6718.qm@web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Xin LI , S?ren Schmidt Subject: Re: ATI SB600/700/800 tester wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:43:39 -0000 --0-397935391-1200008618=:6718 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline --- "Andrey V. Elsukov" escreveu: > Wildes Miranda wrote: > >> There was a lot of fixes and changes. > >> And now it mostly doesn't needed. Do you have > some > >> troubles? > > > > Yes, i think. I haven't the option to set AHCI on > the > > BIOS as you suggested, and my trouble is that > sata > > disk just operate on UDMA33 mode. > > i wish to use this box for java development, with > many > > disk access on compilation process and tomcat > > environment. I think that this box will be more > fast > > with max mode allowed by disk controller. > > Hi, > > please, try attached patch (not tested). > * sorry, forgot attach. the patch works, but i didn't tested the workload yet. User operations is working fine. This patch will be commited ? This patch will be needed if could AHCI mode be set by other way , as loader ? is attached dmesg and pciconf information. thanks for helping. Abra sua conta no Yahoo! 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with ESMTP id m0B0FRgG099478; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:38 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0B0FL0r062281; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:15:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0B0GNP4080451; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:16:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Aryeh Friedman" In-reply-to: References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> Comments: In-reply-to "Aryeh Friedman" message dated "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:37:02 -0500." Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:16:23 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:41 -0000 "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: > On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: > > Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > > > This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes > > warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect > > the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain > > -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not > > to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the > > best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and > > so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as > > upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made > > to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to > > this list. > > Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why this > is not in -chat@ No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another forum, perhaps already existing but not on @freebsd.org, Or - Use chat@freebsd, Or - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software Patents" -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 04:23:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7B216A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from mail.lonelyplanet.com.au (mail.lonelyplanet.com.au [203.166.32.192]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C2013C447 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from Garuda.lpint.net ([10.61.0.88]) by mail.lonelyplanet.com.au with InterScan Message Security Suite; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:54 +1100 Received: from klein.bigpond.com ([10.61.20.74]) by Garuda.lpint.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:53 +1100 Received: from klein.bigpond.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])by klein.bigpond.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B4NWe1002980; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:32 +1100 (EST)(envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from localhost (petros@localhost)by klein.bigpond.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) with ESMTP id m0B4NTkM002977;Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:31 +1100 (EST)(envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) X-Authentication-Warning: klein.bigpond.com: petros owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:29 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Ross X-X-Sender: petros@klein.bigpond.com To: jrh29@alumni.cwru.edu In-Reply-To: <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 04:22:53.0553 (UTC) FILETIME=[A25D6E10:01C85409] X-imss-version: 2.049 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:P L:E SM:0 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:0 TS:0.0000 TC:00 TRN:0 TV:5.0.1023(15660.002) X-imss-scores: Clean:63.99772 C:2 M:3 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:2 C:1 M:2 S:2 R:1 (0.1500 0.1500) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:06 -0000 Hi all, I hate to pollute the list with the policy/licence "flood". So I am happy to send it to -chat too and continue there if you do not mind. I do not think FreeBSD has a license issue. It has a visibility issue, maybe. By change I speak German so I could read the original BSDforen.de thread. Many think of FreeBSD in terms of a "vanilla" Intel/AMD desktop OS only, and while it's not that popular here (and has some shortcomings there - most are related to missing or outdated drivers for consumer hardware or things like Flashplugin etc.), they consider FreeBSD as fading. I think it would be good to raise awareness of the widespread usage of FreeBSD and *BSD based/derived products where the code works silently under the hood, at Juniper, Cisco, Apple, ISPs etc. I think it is in the interest of the stakeholders to advocate FreeBSD. FreeBSD needs to look "cool" and alive to attract developers. There are many ways dependent on the stakeholder in question. A Mac that shows for a second a small FreeBSD mascot while booting, a Juniper that has it on the administration login.. (ask for it if you are working there;-) .. and a place obvious and easy to spot on the FreeBSD main page. (E.g. a title bar with small icons of them "... proudly using FreeBSD" or whatever) Even a lot of IT folk I am work with do not know how widely used FreeBSD is, and the media adds a fair share. E.g. I remember an article in a computer magazine about NAS appliances sub-titled "Windows or Linux" where only the fineprint in the table comparing 10 products showed that half of the "Linux" solutions were based on FreeBSD. Just my 2 Cents. Peter From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 04:29:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C3C16A469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:29:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DE2D913C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:29:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 75732 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2008 04:29:11 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=f9pRrNEJxAmKllSO1Hn5Udgnq0kUHrgf7oVSG3H0PwLrzQ2FEAerlWeUK+jeJtuBR6gO3fhOE+gz3/PJSEoTtLaXrpyv70IN2+t37VDDbkNnASlhFKbytJ+z/ks4IQVR2cAzdktLlYHC8n+L7o9+hKbW4ocM9A6zjFwO9S/moN4=; X-YMail-OSG: obXlN9UVM1m0IxmmxsfaH97SJSyG6kz_OBGHNVNclracx24I9Z9tujdnvpnY3A9theqLvI8bz.lyU2F1PFRKLG9BrnYlR4C395iCHXURz_RlRalGkYM.U1o.QQVw Received: from [165.21.154.14] by web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:29:11 PST Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:29:11 -0800 (PST) From: Unga To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200801101658.m0AGw0rR065128@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <728963.75699.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Cc: Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:29:13 -0000 --- Oliver Fromme wrote: > Unga wrote: > > strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace > (v4.5.6) > > develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > Which date exactly? Did you remember to mount > /proc? > FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE #0: Thu Jan 10 Following is already in /etc/fstab: proc /proc procfs rw 0 0 Btw, Thomas Abthorpe, the maintainer of strace, contacted me and I have sent him the info he requested. Regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 04:54:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101CB16A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:54:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88E613C4FD for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:54:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUG00887QY4WGP0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B4s2s2053172; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:54:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:54:02 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <1364.1200005306@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <1364.1200005306@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:54:37 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <47861AF9.1020608@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > >>> No, no, no, NO & NO F**KING WAY! >> Which part of "(if any)" is not clear... i.e. the licensor is >> completely free to waive the requirment (i.e. identical to the current >> license) > > Which part of "no" was not clear ? > Since this is the most direct answer so out the many that arrived when I was away I will answer it and let it serve as the answer for all other messages: 1. Should people be allowed to code FreeBSD as a hobby (with or without any financial reward)? Oh course 2. Should we rely largely on donations (both small and large)? This is debatable but what is not debatable is there is a need for some paid workers. The only debate is the best way of paying their salaries and other expenses. 3. Does the lack of the possibility of making some money lower the possible pool of contributors? I think the answer is obviously yes (but obviously others disagree) 4. In the long term does such funding (and/or lack thereof) mechinism distort the agenda of various developers communities? Of course it does to deny that fact is to deny basic economics. 5. Are my goals in this debate in someway based on personal interest? Only very indirectly in that wider adoption of the general model I (and other members of the community that developed it) are purposing will make marketing easier for anyone using the model... more directly asking FreeBSD to consider the model both harms and helps me economically... it helps because FreeBSD is the primary development platform (and the one I use for almost everything else except some light gaming) I use and the more robost it is the more robost my products can be.... it harms me in that one my long term commerical projects is a OS that would be a direct competitor of fb/linux/mac os/windows thus it is in my interest to see weak competitors - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvZqjRvRjGmHRgQRAmVhAKCW9EmIHFbdrbMQ+L9SdxOWvItjHwCZAYSn Y6qE+RZJlukrECEyzPDTeSc= =VCx4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 04:56:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A8D16A479 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774F213C467 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUG00AL0R1U3NI0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B4uHje053178; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:17 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-id: <4786F6F1.9020609@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:56:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: >>> Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >>> >>> This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It >>> includes warnings about new features coming out in -current >>> that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that must >>> be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" must >>> subscribe to this list. >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >>> >>> This list contains the overflow from the other lists about >>> non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about >>> whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not >>> to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where >>> the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, >>> and so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such >>> as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be >>> made to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be >>> directed to this list. >> Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why >> this is not in -chat@ > > No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to > request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another > forum, perhaps already existing but not on @freebsd.org, Or If the target audience is the freebsd community it would be impossible with a different forum. > - Use chat@freebsd, Or Already explained > - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, > eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software > Patents" I have suggested that and most people seem to see no need to for it thus we are left with inapporiate forums... also if such a forum was created it should also include business issues (not just legal because the two are intertwined) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvbxjRvRjGmHRgQRAsFLAKCuDUClVUDQ0jKOM0VAQKs3IbM55QCfctLe 1PEvxl6gqHspXEqI8XUnMMA= =yHVu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:08:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D1616A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:08:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sfourman@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C56313C4D9 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:08:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sfourman@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1023959fgg.35 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:08:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=jNQ5LK97ySQMwQnJsJZ7U2MJFZmv2MiNf9lVj5l/jok=; b=hP9CXT+wfSbDqgERrS2LE9T8NoxcES7ScFsPJlUfh5ijR1VZjZOuBY9rU5TV3vjbg1tm0YgjRoj+n6ogIw0YJA41yQnL0CjoUzZYxPxVD4mnvBl9F15sIb9lsGMGF0OWYgqHzlms9lYZKaf5e/NoiGYTeslsza0xHTYMDyUrJxg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=xSGLghqH2pctTMZqFQYP8brkLwt6+RpetUy9EYMmtWoMBc362rMEcEbm1g00zKu3H+893kLw3Wr+xCjYZiOl4EyE5nuZSlfmD/HHXkO+DhUCr7RwbYJmKLOm3AOwFb6fo2jZ7nFq/tklTC0MkV+gJ+0fqIXA3MZoIJhRDaWYQto= Received: by 10.86.98.18 with SMTP id v18mr2596772fgb.18.1200028102728; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.91.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:08:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <11167f520801102108j53e76c47i523e105243762815@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:08:22 -0600 From: "Sam Fourman Jr." To: "John Baldwin" In-Reply-To: <200801101109.38294.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4785616A.4070001@delphij.net> <200801101109.38294.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Richard Bates , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, d@delphij.net, Freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What current Dell Systems are supported/work X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:08:24 -0000 Richard, I just bought one of these 2450 servers on ebay the other day, it was pretty cheap and still a good server for DNS here is a link http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZlesmilde when I received the server it shipped with PC-BSD installed, I am going to put RELENG_7 on it, but if you read the site there is a link to a dmesg hope this helps Sam Fourman Jr. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:38:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FCC16A46E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nslay@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795AB13C467 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nslay@comcast.net) Received: from OMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.35]) by QMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bf3x1Y0010ldTLk0506k00; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:27:38 +0000 Received: from ANTENNA.LOCAL ([68.35.224.189]) by OMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bhTX1Y00145o48c3Q00000; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:27:32 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=5lsNOSoTFXgA:10 a=N_MlG5P_AAAA:8 a=5VKdG2KmAAAA:8 a=xe8BsctaAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=bCPk5H1vMmmtiE8rWU0A:9 a=6oF_zHbEC9N29kfI4I4A:7 a=41WU-rvYiWkGu_FH4c4THmQOmTgA:4 a=fgf5PR_cwQYA:10 a=FWKnGezxsYAA:10 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=pt045V2O6wwA:10 Message-ID: <4786FDE7.9050405@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:25:59 -0500 From: Nathan Lay User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071230) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:38:38 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Mark Linimon wrote: > >> The FreeBSD license will not be changing. >> >> How can I say this even though I am not an official spokesman for >> the project? Let me explain. >> >> (a disclaimer first: I am on both the bugbusting team and the ports >> management team, and have been for several years. However, I'm >> not using either of those as a basis for the above claim. Thus, >> everything here is my _own opinion_.) >> > I am not using my work on ports 2.0 (which is and will always remain > under a 100% freebsd model) to make my claims just showing that I am > not some one throwing rocks at a glass house only (I also live in the > house) > >> FreeBSD is 3 things. You understand 1.5 of those things. >> >> - FreeBSD is a codebase. >> >> - FreeBSD is a community of users and developers. >> > > I think the "official" freebsd community (i.e. the direct maintainers > of freebsd.org and the foundation) have failed to make it clear that > it is *USERS AND DEVELOPERS* not just users and *DEVELOPERS*... what I > mean by this is a true community would be quite a bit more responsive > (not just "if you have a problem fix it your self") to actual user > requests.... this is not to say there is any way to improve the > situation without some changes to the culture (very minor ones if you > ask me) > >> - FreeBSD is a *culture*. >> > > Agreed and (see below) I am not suggesting it is wrong or that a > fundamental change is needed I am only saying it should me more inclusive. > >> It's easy to see FreeBSD as a "codebase". There's a web page, and >> CVS scripts, and it all comes together as all these bits on a disk. >> It _looks_ like a regular product. But it isn't. The software is >> a byproduct of a process. >> > > And the whole aim of what I am talking about is improving the process > not adding feature X... it is an issue of long term health > >> In that process, a community of users and developers works >> together. Mostly they share two key goals: >> >> - To create something "really neat" >> >> - To have fun. >> >> That's the *culture*. >> > > And that is fine as long as people do not start to use it for *mission > critical* apps... once this starts to happen there is real money and > real jobs at stake and to some extent people would be reluctant to use > a product that is treated as hobby (this is why windows is still the > dominate OS... see > http://www.detroitguy.com/2007/12/21/the-truth-about-linux/)... do you > really want people who think war is fun running the DoD? > >> To the extent that culture exists, we will continue to attract new >> users and developers, and retain the old ones. If it doesn't, we >> won't. >> >> And: ***every attempt that has been made in the past to change that >> culture has failed***. >> > > I am not purposing making a change to the fundamental nature of the > culture just make it more attractive to potential contributors. > >> As well it _should_. >> > And all health cultures are not afraid of making benefical changes. > > >> Because once the culture goes away, all we have is the pile of >> bits. If forced to sign something that said "you _must_ contribute >> back", my firm belief is that most of the current developers would >> walk. I certainly would -- and I say that as someone who has >> contributed a great deal in the past. I simply won't put myself in >> a position where I feel _compelled_ to do so. It's my free time, >> and I'll do what I want with it, TYVM. >> > > That is fine for you but is it fine for the person who relies on the > process to run their net... I highly doubt Yahoo! uses freebsd because > it feels good... they use it is a solid product and increasing the > amount of contribution can't possible be bad in this reguard... btw > I know of several people who used to be hard core BSD people but have > switched to commericial linux distro's because they are betting their > jobs/companies on it > >> Our *culture* is a very delicate dance between self-interest and >> altruism. (I'm not familiar with anything other than Open Source >> that has this unique balance, but possibly amateur radio comes >> close.) >> > > All this purpose is to state that balance more formally (there is not > a single thing I have suggested yet that would force any > user/developer visible modifications to how stuff is done {i.e. it is > 100% optional based on the licensor's decisions in the matter not the > verbage) > >> The FreeBSD community has always vehemently protested any attempt >> to change the culture by e.g. turning the development process into >> something directed by companies. This is a feature. Frankly, if >> people want to get told to do something they don't want to do, it >> just starts looking like work, and there's a lot better-paying jobs >> out there than Open Source will ever be able to generate. Letting >> some outside entity direct the project would break the culture. We >> would be killing the goose to get the golden egg. >> > > And that is the very point reling one some kind of indirect subsidies > *INCREASES* your depenance on large donors (companies, gov. agencies, > etc. all that have some agenda beyond FreeBSD for FreeBSD's shake)... > an other organization I belong to learned this very early on (1939) in > it's history when John D. Rockefeller refused to donate more $5,000 > because it would ruin the org's purpose... it now has codified this > and has been extremely successful ever since... > > >> Having said that, there is increasing interest from some companies >> in funding individuals to work on specific projects. To the extent >> that this work can be integrated without hurting the existing >> culture, I'm all for it. If we can have some kind of hybrid model: >> fine. But if anyone wants to take FreeBSD and make a commercial >> enterprise out of it, fine, go ahead and do so, but please do it >> somewhere else. >> > > See above... it is impossible to take money/work/whatever and expect > to have to give nothing it return. > >> Now, with that background, let me return to my original point. >> >> I don't have the power to go change the bits that define the >> license. Even if I did, I wouldn't. Even core, who I suppose >> theoretically could, wouldn't. If they did, they'd all be kicked >> out on their butts in the next election -- if there were any >> developers left who hadn't already forked and started a new project >> with the bits and the original culture. >> > > I have an other item for the fortune file then "Residence to all > change (even good change) is the common denominator between most > non-Western countries and various BSD efforts". > > >> So, the license isn't going to change -- and even if it did, the >> people that changed it would be left behind as the community simply >> moved over to a new name that reflected the original culture. >> > > I fail to see how minor change == the end of the world.... Now that > being said I grew up in the city that orginal produced the main > components of the culture you so love and even to this day hope it > could work as envisioned but many factors make that city unsustainable > in the long run and FreeBSD exhibits all of them... the primary fault > is believing since people in the past have abused money to the harm of > society that it is the root of all evil > > >> I said earlier that you understood 1.5 things. You see the >> codebase. You have a poor understanding of the community -- which >> is why you feel you've been badly received to this point -- you >> simply don't understand how we work together as it is. But the >> thing you have absolutely no concept of, for whatever reason, is >> the culture. >> >> Our culture is fine. Our license is fine. If you don't like them: >> start your own. The bits are there for the taking. >> > > Purely from my own personal self interest I would actually like to see > FreeBSD and all other OS's fail... I am making these purposes for > idealistic reasons only (and likelly to my material harm a few years > down the road) > > >> Now please, go away and stop putting your plans for whatever >> project under whatever culture you're trying to establish, under >> our banner, on our mailing lists. >> > > See above... if this was plans for my own projects I would do my best > to really screw freebsd up as much as possible (I know one can argue > that is in fact my goal but it is not) > > >> Thanks. >> >> mcl >> >> > > > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman > FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. > http://www.flosoft-systems.com > Developer, not business, friendly. > > "Free software != Free beer" > > Blog: > > http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHhkkzjRvRjGmHRgQRAkGgAJ9gyCXaqWODJlcT6xGD8fluM8uHIQCfQSD8 > 8OTjj19Rdblp1bnCT3Ib1qk= > =f/nU > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > This license argument isn't going anywhere. Even if a license change could solve FreeBSD's problems, they are not going to solve them in the near future. I'm no FreeBSD developer, but I tell you, I dream of it...I bet you a ton of people dream of it. My problem is time, I'm a student and I have a job...it takes an awful lot of time to learn how to write this kind of software. Consider this, I have "The Design and Implementation of FreeBSD"...its a 700 page book. How in the world can the average code tinkerer have time to read that in detail? I also noticed there's no device driver book. Two years ago, I took a course in Linux device drivers..not only was there an easy and concise book to read (Linux Device Drivers), but it was available to everyone freely. I really don't think reward is as big of an issue as you make it out to be...to me this stuff is fun and interesting. If you're here doing it for a profit, go work for Microsoft - they make a money making platform. This system is a joy to run...it has its problems, but they all do. My only suggestion is try to make it less painful to learn how to contribute. The handbooks and man pages are great, no doubt...but perhaps more could be done to reduce the amount of time is takes to prepare a potential contributor. Best Regards, Nathan Lay From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 08:48:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3378516A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:48:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from liste@encephalon.de) Received: from digitiminimi.de (digitiminimi.de [217.172.44.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008F113C47E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:48:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from liste@encephalon.de) Received: from localhost (digitiminimi.de [217.172.44.71]) by digitiminimi.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CCD9B507; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:32 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at digitiminimi.de Received: from digitiminimi.de ([217.172.44.71]) by localhost (main.digitiminimi.de [217.172.44.71]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNLYFu5--YtB; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from cojote.suedfac.com (sffwd2.suedfactoring.de [212.202.224.253]) by digitiminimi.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFACC9B504; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:21 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <252B444A-6B6B-4FF1-A9C7-4F7E28071591@encephalon.de> From: "Axel S. Gruner" To: Richard Bates In-Reply-To: <7A9D2D82-BF04-446A-9A50-A53F6167FFD2@telehouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:32:49 +0100 References: <7A9D2D82-BF04-446A-9A50-A53F6167FFD2@telehouse.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SAN for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:48:57 -0000 Hi, Am 10.01.2008 um 21:48 schrieb Richard Bates: > Doing prelim on hardware requirements, and would like to konw. > > Is anyone running a SAN from FreeBSD? > > What hardware are you using? We are running FreeBSD on an IBM HS-20 Blade (Intel). FreeBSD ist installed directly to the SAN, which is a DS4300. Cheers, Axel From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 08:55:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6B916A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4E513C447 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B139617105; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B8tUr9003546; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:31 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:54:02 EST." <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:55:34 -0000 In message <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >1. Should people be allowed to code FreeBSD as a hobby (with or >without any financial reward)? Oh course This is a retorical question that has nothing to do with changing the licensen. (And so was the rest for that matter.) Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a non-starter for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys acceptance of that, and piss of a large number of users who have cleared the BSD license with their laywers) and ideological (we don't want to create uncertainty about the well known and deeply established BSD license). -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:06:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A116A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C1913C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH008242M0PYS0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B95udd004959; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:05:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:05:56 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:06:01 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > writes: > >> 1. Should people be allowed to code FreeBSD as a hobby (with or >> without any financial reward)? Oh course > > This is a retorical question that has nothing to do with changing > the licensen. (And so was the rest for that matter.) It has everything to do with license issues because the current one makes it so you have to work for some organization that pays your bills to allow you to work on FreeBSD (either directly for them or gives you the freedom of free time to do it)... this option is not available to smaller contributing organizations and individuals because the demands of making a living are such that they do not have the time or money to do it for free... the only way to repair this is add a clause that allows for direct fees for use of FreeBSD (I do not want to take up a few pages explaining the why when it is in my blog so I will leave the reason as an exercise for you) > > Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a non-starter > for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys acceptance of that, > and piss of a large number of users who have cleared the BSD > license with their laywers) and ideological (we don't want to > create uncertainty about the well known and deeply established BSD > license). > > The revision I am suggesting does not change the nature of the license such that it would invalidate such legal existing legal advice. Other great ideas through out history have also died due to refusal to adapt to current situations.... i.e. a non-commercial BSD license makes sense only if there is not a large user base relying on stuff to continue working and that is currently the case. As to fighting a "loosing battle" that has never detered me in the past I have lost some and won some. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhzF0jRvRjGmHRgQRAhsVAJ9phHdC1U/358GaWs79YnwykRNTgACfUTto 9eXyqk53aSRHgfJVc0b6wfQ= =Hjk7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:09:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08BB16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:09:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5132613C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:09:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B99thv097502; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:09:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0B99tlr097501; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:09:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:09:55 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, atrens@nortel.com In-Reply-To: <47824627.40701@nortel.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:09:56 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, atrens@nortel.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:09:58 -0000 Andrew Atrens wrote: > # cvs diff -u acpi_perf.c > Index: acpi_perf.c > =================================================================== > RCS file: /usr/repo/freebsd/src/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_perf.c,v > retrieving revision 1.26 > diff -u -r1.26 acpi_perf.c > - --- acpi_perf.c 22 Mar 2007 18:16:40 -0000 1.26 > +++ acpi_perf.c 16 Nov 2007 20:11:02 -0000 > @@ -300,9 +300,9 @@ > continue; > > /* Check for duplicate entries */ > - - if (count > 0 && > - - sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq == > - - sc->px_states[count].core_freq) > + if (count > 0 && > + CPUFREQ_CMP(sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq, > + sc->px_states[count].core_freq)) > continue; > > count++; > > > It's so simple that it's kind of silly that it (or something like it) > hasn't been committed yet... > > Anyone out there with a commit bit interested in submitting this ? It seems that nobody is responsible for those things right now (or nobody feels responsible). My PR bin/115513 is also still open. I'm using that patch for a long time already and wouldn't want to live without it; it improves interactive behaviour a lot on my notebook with powerd. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to sharpen sticks." -- Thant Tessman From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:18:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575C716A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B3613C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56BA717105; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B9ICdt003649; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:13 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:05:56 EST." <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:12 +0000 Message-ID: <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:18:15 -0000 In message <47873174.4040802@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a non-starter >> for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys acceptance of that, >> and piss of a large number of users who have cleared the BSD >> license with their laywers) and ideological (we don't want to >> create uncertainty about the well known and deeply established BSD >> license). >> >> >The revision I am suggesting [...] It does not matter. The BSD license will not be changed for the reasons I stated. It ain't gonna happen. All you're doing now is hurting your case by annoyingly keeping barking up the wrong tree. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:22:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76B16A468 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4DE13C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00F9X3D94RG0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B9MKrE009803; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:22:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:22:20 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <4787354C.4000803@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:22 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <47873174.4040802@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > writes: > >>> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a >>> non-starter for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys >>> acceptance of that, and piss of a large number of users who >>> have cleared the BSD license with their laywers) and >>> ideological (we don't want to create uncertainty about the well >>> known and deeply established BSD license). >>> >>> >> The revision I am suggesting [...] > > It does not matter. The BSD license will not be changed for the > reasons I stated. > > It ain't gonna happen. > > All you're doing now is hurting your case by annoyingly keeping > barking up the wrong tree. > And by denying that there is an apporiate venue you (among with other people) have by definition made it so anyone who presents such a purposal will be screwed before the debate even starts... I hardly call this honest debating techiniques... a more honest method would be agree the approriate place and set some ground rules for the debate... but it is clear that an honest debate is not the goal of any of the negative replies so far. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhzVMjRvRjGmHRgQRArz4AJ9SYKFHAZHM9DnhTLzCu2YBwq2Z3wCfYVlL 1LTs8JElioP663Ix+48tDpo= =bmZR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:23:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F5B16A474 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:23:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D204113C4D3 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:23:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH009OF3FP5EJ0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B9NnHM009809; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:23:49 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> To: Wilko Bulte Message-id: <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:23:51 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wilko Bulte wrote: > Quoting Poul-Henning Kamp, who wrote on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at > 09:18:12AM +0000 .. >> In message <47873174.4040802@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >> writes: >> >>>> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a >>>> non-starter for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys >>>> acceptance of that, and piss of a large number of users who >>>> have cleared the BSD license with their laywers) and >>>> ideological (we don't want to create uncertainty about the >>>> well known and deeply established BSD license). >>>> >>>> >>> The revision I am suggesting [...] >> It does not matter. The BSD license will not be changed for the >> reasons I stated. >> >> It ain't gonna happen. >> >> All you're doing now is hurting your case by annoyingly keeping >> barking up the wrong tree. > > Worse, it is hurting FreeBSD because it burns committer cycles that > better be spent on doing something sensible instead of arguing > about a license change that will never happen. > If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhzWkjRvRjGmHRgQRAr9yAKCfkfoCvdQ5dr1TdvxiZY5SKjeS4ACfRiZN rmOZIqB9r5W+0VbA28pOOL0= =Q8tr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:25:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C375416A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C58713C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5DC17105; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B9P8RV003713; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:08 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:22:20 EST." <4787354C.4000803@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:25:10 -0000 In message <4787354C.4000803@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >And by denying that there is an apporiate venue you (among with other >people) have by definition made it so anyone who presents such a >purposal will be screwed before the debate even starts... I don't waste time debating Newtons second law either. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:27:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4BC16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:27:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C99A13C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:27:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00L2N3LT4XM0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B9RS6d011191; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:27:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:27:28 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-id: <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:27:30 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4787354C.4000803@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > writes: > >> And by denying that there is an apporiate venue you (among with >> other people) have by definition made it so anyone who presents >> such a purposal will be screwed before the debate even starts... >> > > I don't waste time debating Newtons second law either. > Why because it was eventually proven incomplete by relatively? (i.e. if no one dared question it then the incorrect version of the law would still be used today and odds are there would be no computers because electronics uses modern physics and not classical) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhzaAjRvRjGmHRgQRAlSlAKCqd/ePR8reUBJszrKrkNvYgg+BMQCgoQxB fNo3ICLnNbfNcmikpJeRXAM= =lGcL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:35:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0D016A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465F513C455; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B47A41B10EFD; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:34:59 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on blah.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from hater.haters.org (hater.cmotd.com [192.168.3.125]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261611B10F00; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:34:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:34:56 +0200 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071120) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5474/Fri Jan 11 08:38:39 2008 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: bruno@FreeBSD.org, njl@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:02 -0000 Hi, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Andrew Atrens wrote: > > # cvs diff -u acpi_perf.c > > Index: acpi_perf.c > > =================================================================== > > RCS file: /usr/repo/freebsd/src/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_perf.c,v > > retrieving revision 1.26 > > diff -u -r1.26 acpi_perf.c > > - --- acpi_perf.c 22 Mar 2007 18:16:40 -0000 1.26 > > +++ acpi_perf.c 16 Nov 2007 20:11:02 -0000 > > @@ -300,9 +300,9 @@ > > continue; > > > > /* Check for duplicate entries */ > > - - if (count > 0 && > > - - sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq == > > - - sc->px_states[count].core_freq) > > + if (count > 0 && > > + CPUFREQ_CMP(sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq, > > + sc->px_states[count].core_freq)) > > continue; > > > > count++; > > > > > > It's so simple that it's kind of silly that it (or something like it) > > hasn't been committed yet... > > > > Anyone out there with a commit bit interested in submitting this ? > > It seems that nobody is responsible for those things right > now (or nobody feels responsible). My PR bin/115513 is > also still open. I'm using that patch for a long time > already and wouldn't want to live without it; it improves > interactive behaviour a lot on my notebook with powerd. > I really hope someone will commit this before 7.0 release, or it will never be part of RELENG_7_0 and not everyone want to track RELENG_7. While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq under let's say 1000HZ? I want to manually set the allowed minimum, because my laptop is lagging too much under certain speeds. P.S. Nate Lawson & Bruno Ducrot CCed. They are pointed as tech contacts for powerd on the pages that I found :) -- Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:35:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EE516A468 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643E313C461 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so1045666rvb.43 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:35:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=8/FAEtYx6mAYNC29faucF0QXoZfrmb4Iqe1NbrpFiUs=; b=dLc7AlyjlTn3aybZwuixlyZNEZvHulu4mEWLEWOf0XlgkTfiYBykEvJXkFCNOf9EX4Ko6QpP5MXTVu2dqE0bURQfJ2S0KaqilB+2yp05w10c2CvHSHz2Mb8vQyUlkCIeReVUND92Fw5+CKt/jKUJdZfLEheXKF1nnGl4bb1no5U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Cw+7EILureUiivIWfu/mgcJPTN5rPDiJndLrP4VV6tjLAQl1zoZaK6CmZ9xxe4k02OdqQKDuljhA+L4Wob1lF5y9cN1h77W9sqMkEya/WjGj6C1NNWERNE6nJ91fuGYWn1RMDu5FVUOMND0yYX5FTjHIiEFdPk2aEnGI6jlqAg0= Received: by 10.141.75.6 with SMTP id c6mr1846168rvl.272.1200044110485; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.74.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:35:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:35:10 +0900 From: Astrodog To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-Reply-To: <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:35:12 -0000 I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. --- Harrison From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:46:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017BE16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:46:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABD813C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:46:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12E1136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:46:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from G4.local (unknown [192.168.100.101]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B77656513; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:46:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:46:46 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Organization: RISCworks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:46:51 -0000 thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >> writes: >> >>> 1. Should people be allowed to code FreeBSD as a hobby (with or >>> without any financial reward)? Oh course >> This is a retorical question that has nothing to do with changing >> the licensen. (And so was the rest for that matter.) > > It has everything to do with license issues because the current one > makes it so you have to work for some organization that pays your > bills to allow you to work on FreeBSD (either directly for them or > gives you the freedom of free time to do it)... this option is not > available to smaller contributing organizations and individuals > because the demands of making a living are such that they do not have > the time or money to do it for free... the only way to repair this is > add a clause that allows for direct fees for use of FreeBSD (I do not > want to take up a few pages explaining the why when it is in my blog > so I will leave the reason as an exercise for you) >> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a non-starter >> for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys acceptance of that, >> and piss of a large number of users who have cleared the BSD >> license with their laywers) and ideological (we don't want to >> create uncertainty about the well known and deeply established BSD >> license). >> >> > The revision I am suggesting does not change the nature of the license > such that it would invalidate such legal existing legal advice. Other > great ideas through out history have also died due to refusal to adapt > to current situations.... i.e. a non-commercial BSD license makes > sense only if there is not a large user base relying on stuff to > continue working and that is currently the case. As to fighting a > "loosing battle" that has never detered me in the past I have lost > some and won some. > > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman Holy crap! How was this license nonsense introduced into this thread?! The license is *perfect* and works for decades now. I'm pretty sure people know when they can 'effort' it to contribute to an OSS prject like FreeBSD. If they have time to do so and the will to do so, they will do it. If not, then they won't do it. The license is not responsible for coders' lives in a way to make sure they can 'live' (rent an appartment, eat, drink, whatever). Furthermore: Even the GPL does not regulate this. (Total waste of time...) The problem is another one: It is a social one, and one of organizational problems. IMHO, in total contrast of what used to be the 'philosophy' of the past, nowadays developers are more competitive amongst each other; there's no real 'team play' any more like it used to be. Everybody works on his own stuff, to earn the merits (if there are any besides 'glory'). The thing that is missing is satisfaction -- if you can feel satisfaction that your code works, then it's regardless of whether it was build by you or a team you were part of. This competition, which wastes a damn lot time, energy, and ressources (look at capitalism, I'm almost sorry for this: Who needs a damned 250 different tooth pastes? For all of those there are development costs (though they are hardly different), lots of waste here, marketing and advertising costs -- lots of waste, too, people printing hundreds of drafts, flying from east to west coast and back, etc etc etc -- all this is incredibly ineffective). Team work, as it _used_ to be, in contrast, is very efficient. Teamwork, though, needs a strong leader. And that is, I might point out, missing. FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated in bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used to be*. It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD Audio... Is there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already ported to FreeBSD? No? So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' That's a typical answer that might be given in only one context: There's no real 'agenda' of where to go with FreeBSD. The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from FreeBSD (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company could no longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, because they had way too many problems with it), then a chain reaction is started. As I wrote yesterday, 'If I want features, I run Linux.' I take a not so stable OS and can connect my new USB Digital Camera to it, or my CardBus HD Audio device, or whatever. The Linux guys import every single crappy unneccessary driver into their kernel, that's why APIs are changing as often as some developers change their underwear, and why Linux is NOT stable. If I want a stable server that can (although not should) achieve very high uptimes, I choose FreeBSD. However, this might change. I simply doubt that todays FreeBSD's quality, robustness can keep pace with the quality it had some years ago. I hope not to piss of anyone, this is the way I see it. We use commercial Unices, too, and I have a personal odyssee behind me putting emphasis on NetBSD, FreeBSD, then OpenBSD, then on my annoyance that one is bound to a foundation, the other one accepts blobs and decays, and the third one is lead by somebody who barks at you immediately. Best regards, Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:51:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D656816A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:51:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19B313C45B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:51:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9670136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:51:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from G4.local (unknown [192.168.100.101]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C65056513; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:52:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47873C3B.1070008@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:51:55 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Organization: RISCworks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:51:57 -0000 thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Wilko Bulte wrote: >> Quoting Poul-Henning Kamp, who wrote on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at >> 09:18:12AM +0000 .. >>> In message <47873174.4040802@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >>> writes: >>> >>>>> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a >>>>> non-starter for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys >>>>> acceptance of that, and piss of a large number of users who >>>>> have cleared the BSD license with their laywers) and >>>>> ideological (we don't want to create uncertainty about the >>>>> well known and deeply established BSD license). >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The revision I am suggesting [...] >>> It does not matter. The BSD license will not be changed for the >>> reasons I stated. >>> >>> It ain't gonna happen. >>> >>> All you're doing now is hurting your case by annoyingly keeping >>> barking up the wrong tree. >> Worse, it is hurting FreeBSD because it burns committer cycles that >> better be spent on doing something sensible instead of arguing >> about a license change that will never happen. >> > > If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed > and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of > close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I > was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) One might try to change something if it's broken. The license is not. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:52:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A5416A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037613C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 4B0701B10F13; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:52:00 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on blah.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from hater.haters.org (hater.cmotd.com [192.168.3.125]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8841B10F09 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:51:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47873C3C.8030007@moneybookers.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:56 +0200 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071120) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> In-Reply-To: <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5474/Fri Jan 11 08:38:39 2008 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:52:01 -0000 Hi, Sorry to reply to myself, but for the record .. :) Stefan Lambrev wrote: > While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq > under let's say 1000HZ? > I want to manually set the allowed minimum, because my laptop is > lagging too much under certain speeds. I just found that setting debug.cpufreq.lowest=XXX will do the trick. -- Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:57:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05F216A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1A113C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from c83-253-25-183.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.25.183]:65289 helo=falcon.midgard.homeip.net) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDGdo-00013D-7T for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:32 +0100 Received: (qmail 34145 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 10:50:48 +0100 Received: from owl.midgard.homeip.net (10.1.5.7) by falcon.midgard.homeip.net with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2008 10:50:48 +0100 Received: (qmail 86107 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Jan 2008 10:50:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:50:48 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080111095048.GA86060@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Poul-Henning Kamp , Wilko Bulte , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Originating-IP: 83.253.25.183 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1JDGdo-00013D-7T. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1JDGdo-00013D-7T f225dd738923135724ecaffc04696535 Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:57:33 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 04:27:28AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <4787354C.4000803@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > > writes: > > > >> And by denying that there is an apporiate venue you (among with > >> other people) have by definition made it so anyone who presents > >> such a purposal will be screwed before the debate even starts... > >> > > > > I don't waste time debating Newtons second law either. > > > Why because it was eventually proven incomplete by relatively? (i.e. > if no one dared question it then the incorrect version of the law > would still be used today and odds are there would be no computers > because electronics uses modern physics and not classical) Wrong on all counts. Newton's second law (as Newton formulated it) was not invalidated by relativity. And even if it had been it would not have mattered much for the existence of computers since it is perfectly possible to build electronic circuits without knowing anything about relativity or quantum physics. -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:06:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A20216A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:06:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markir@paradise.net.nz) Received: from s-utl02-ffpop.stsn.net (s-utl02-ffpop.stsn.net [62.50.216.202]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9B7813C465 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markir@paradise.net.nz) Received: from s-utl02-ffpop.stsn.net ([127.0.0.1]) by s-utl02-ffpop.stsn.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.2.20) with SMTP id M2008011110483807413 ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:48:38 +0100 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=9.9 tests=ALL_TRUSTED: -2.867,AWL: -0.607,BAYES_00: -1.665, SUBJ_AS_SEEN: 1.214 X-Spam-Level: Received: from [10.64.55.216] ([10.64.55.216]) by s-utl02-ffpop.stsn.net; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:48:37 +0100 Message-ID: <47873B5B.4040000@paradise.net.nz> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:48:11 -0800 From: Mark Kirkwood User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:06:25 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > Why because it was eventually proven incomplete by relatively? (i.e. > if no one dared question it then the incorrect version of the law > would still be used today and odds are there would be no computers > because electronics uses modern physics and not classical) > > The above analogy is invalid as FreeBSD is not an existing reality to be discovered, but a construct of the minds and efforts of its community. Therefore if the community is satisfied with the license as it is, there is no reason to change it. Obviously I can't speak for the whole community, but speaking as one member I would be most unhappy to see stakeholders have influence based on monetary/commercial elements - the lack of such is one of the things I *like* about FreeBSD. regards Mark From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:10:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90C716A417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:10:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F39013C468; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:10:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BAAENO099431; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BAAEcd099430; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:14 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111010.m0BAAEcd099430@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com, bruno@FreeBSD.ORG, njl@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:15 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com, bruno@FreeBSD.ORG, njl@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:10:18 -0000 Stefan Lambrev wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > It seems that nobody is responsible for those things right > > now (or nobody feels responsible). My PR bin/115513 is > > also still open. I'm using that patch for a long time > > already and wouldn't want to live without it; it improves > > interactive behaviour a lot on my notebook with powerd. > > I really hope someone will commit this before 7.0 release, or it will > never be part of RELENG_7_0 > and not everyone want to track RELENG_7. > > While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq under > let's say 1000HZ? powerd(8) could grow an option for that, too, but maybe your problem can be alleviated using existing options. > I want to manually set the allowed minimum, because my laptop is lagging > too much under certain speeds. You should try to increase powerd's -r option from the default 65 to, say, 80 so the adjustment for performance kicks in more quickly. It might help. Also, if your laptop has a lot of frequency levels (mine has 14 distinct levels, see sysctl dev.cpu.0.freq_levels), then you also might want to try my patch from bin/115513 and run powerd with a larger -d value, which means that the frequency will ramp up faster. The default is 2. If you have many levels, it normally takes some time for the CPU to come up to speed if there is a sudden load. When you use a larger step value (e.g. -d 5), that will happen more quickly. That especially improves the startup behaviour of media players and similar things. Without the patch, the first few seconds of video playback are really horrible on my machine. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "C++ is over-complicated nonsense. And Bjorn Shoestrap's book a danger to public health. I tried reading it once, I was in recovery for months." -- Cliff Sarginson From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:18:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237B216A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:18:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FE113C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so613528uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:18:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=FJsMBR/Au2pHMmXU4S9LNMxwvujc8JAYBBhPGg2CM4Q=; b=DufOKWWz6Zlk2USentNdj203gg+Cd0qvhkvK2X5ReVGUIwITIdVDOXx7gzMRPA+jqAuB6oY6EuZvTYf127J/cCK2fHazYx7Cff81WvxQkbWB8zeCmVn5ibFxG+eAwpwLKb3dAzW8pVRl4LzctNwLzVszGdHSjgFB/NvwEZdvV9Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=qOnnrKyfgoU1EB/JC9EBBj0dyZlzEuoOQDG32UeJ5pcwze9ljycxaJACc8Crycj4JPfSfATkrKVZ5Zi5DDZ+CsbtwQvctYbvekfJC9qx3EKsSaoLczCADGlgMCAFClunIp3ROiqIVPZiIw4iA5PzkArol87a2xwvRoV/IrvuoiQ= Received: by 10.67.29.20 with SMTP id g20mr4599316ugj.54.1200046728060; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:18:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:18:48 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Stefan Lambrev" In-Reply-To: <47873C3C.8030007@moneybookers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> <47873C3C.8030007@moneybookers.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7f1ccdda530de6af Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:18:50 -0000 On 11/01/2008, Stefan Lambrev wrote: > Hi, > Sorry to reply to myself, but for the record .. :) > > Stefan Lambrev wrote: > > While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq > > under let's say 1000HZ? > > I want to manually set the allowed minimum, because my laptop is > > lagging too much under certain speeds. > I just found that setting debug.cpufreq.lowest=XXX will do the trick. -i 95 -p 50 -r 50 made my T43p much more responsive From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:31:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8F116A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:31:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077F013C459 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH007V86KDQQR0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BAVO3s011731; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:31:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:31:24 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> To: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Message-id: <4787457C.4050209@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:31:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > The license is *perfect* and works for decades now. I'm pretty sure > people know when they can 'effort' it to contribute to an OSS > prject like FreeBSD. If they have time to do so and the will to do > so, they will do it. If not, then they won't do it. > > The license is not responsible for coders' lives in a way to make > sure they can 'live' (rent an appartment, eat, drink, whatever). > > Furthermore: Even the GPL does not regulate this. > > (Total waste of time...) Accept to direct most of this to the hopefully newly created -legal@ list just let me say forcing people to pick between morals and money has never been a good option. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh0V8jRvRjGmHRgQRAtuHAJ9dkiFNxoHDWj3h/CsD8+9iyl5sEQCfb+m6 4KffcwMgO5JmF97oLkutXf0= =zSsS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:35:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EDC16A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A097A13C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC026136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from G4.local (unknown [192.168.100.101]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE92328AA4; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:35 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47874672.10804@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:30 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Organization: RISCworks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <4787457C.4050209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4787457C.4050209@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:32 -0000 thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > >> The license is *perfect* and works for decades now. I'm pretty sure >> people know when they can 'effort' it to contribute to an OSS >> prject like FreeBSD. If they have time to do so and the will to do >> so, they will do it. If not, then they won't do it. >> >> The license is not responsible for coders' lives in a way to make >> sure they can 'live' (rent an appartment, eat, drink, whatever). >> >> Furthermore: Even the GPL does not regulate this. >> >> (Total waste of time...) > > Accept to direct most of this to the hopefully newly created -legal@ > list I doubt there will be such a list. Maybe they should just create a /dev/null-likeee list called flames@ ? > just let me say forcing people to pick between morals and money > has never been a good option. True, as money is on the place in the universe where morals is at maximum distance to. However, is there anyone including yourself able to follow your wannabemetaphyisical killing spree? > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:44:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CE316A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:44:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F84413C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:44:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH007S276AO4R0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BAiX2H011757; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:44:33 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:44:33 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <47874672.10804@riscworks.net> To: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Message-id: <47874891.6050802@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <4787457C.4050209@gmail.com> <47874672.10804@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:44:35 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Timo Schšoeler wrote: > thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> >>> The license is *perfect* and works for decades now. I'm pretty >>> sure people know when they can 'effort' it to contribute to an >>> OSS prject like FreeBSD. If they have time to do so and the >>> will to do so, they will do it. If not, then they won't do it. >>> >>> The license is not responsible for coders' lives in a way to >>> make sure they can 'live' (rent an appartment, eat, drink, >>> whatever). >>> >>> Furthermore: Even the GPL does not regulate this. >>> >>> (Total waste of time...) >> >> Accept to direct most of this to the hopefully newly created >> -legal@ list > > I doubt there will be such a list. Maybe they should just create a > /dev/null-likeee list called flames@ ? See the actual purposal (not mine) and you see there are perfectly legit reasons for such a list that have nothing to do with this thread > >> just let me say forcing people to pick between morals and money >> has never been a good option. > > True, as money is on the place in the universe where morals is at > maximum distance to. Much of current thinking in economics actually says they are in fact flip sides of the same coin. A forth coming book (which I am not allowed to cite for an other few months due to a NDA) take direct aim at the above false paradox. It is the thesis of the book that almost all bad aspects of the modern macro world are due to incomplete understandings of the interplay between them. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh0iRjRvRjGmHRgQRAhS1AJwOOb4+KPJGRPBG5uye8Qv+69jPgQCgk1N6 6TvTwk7sLl8+x4ZnGASAAZk= =Mzt4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:45:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A61C16A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:45:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from varga.michal@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.156]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C4E13C45B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:45:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from varga.michal@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1133479fgg.35 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:45:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references:content-type:organization:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=D/RRIeIjHZjzzHrJPvTgs58ruJRbAcnaiwyfW3WS1rA=; b=Ke4jh2jZRnYT16/9/gRonUJ1YzjTFnn4Vh5ct9BJVMF29i7kqlMFlgS9iVgsJ8hX9+rghFxsqu5IM1hCLyF7Aof99FN3+uG1YM44GsVBxBKTptSkQo6J5rGiUn74oeSbd4BJoigWAIHJeCgUypQ4worb3EWK8o7cMZxqBnSiyio= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references:content-type:organization:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=uDK16SVrtgXfDMT3g+7SS+c0lgVzMEpvzEatvzpfzhN+wb+dwxDrQqTZk3OKgF0auk8kjTLDwAkQkgzWU3iCBE6EGyP1kXc3apVQ9VIGUm3u3nNMViAlbzXB1Z/nMXS98tz8B9b/K0MvDFmF877MiL+dOLk58wbBIvOZBahOViU= Received: by 10.86.87.5 with SMTP id k5mr2817696fgb.51.1200046645589; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.100.2? ( [82.208.39.180]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm2250718fge.8.2008.01.11.02.17.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michal Varga To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Stonehenge Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:17:23 +0100 Message-Id: <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community (Stop this!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:45:19 -0000 On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 18:35 +0900, Astrodog wrote: > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-mr-friedman mailing list or whatever else, but, PLEASE, stop this shit hitting our mailboxes. This has gone way too far. m. -- Michal Varga Stonehenge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:53:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B09F16A417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:53:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77FC13C459; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:53:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A50BB.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.80.187]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0BArbgW008312; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:53:40 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BAsufX065451; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BAsjPf090176; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801111054.m0BAsjPf090176@fire.js.berklix.net> To: postmaster@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to Astrodog message dated "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:35:10 +0900." Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:45 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Astrodog Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:53:43 -0000 Postmaster@, cc current@ Astrodog wrote: > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > > Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it > would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace > licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. Good idea. no pre- existing similar list on: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL I checked before my Message-Id: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> Since which Aryeh Friedman continues to dump licensing chat on current@ & refuses to move to chat@. -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:54:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69EE16A473 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:54:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CEE13C4DB for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:54:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916F136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from G4.local (unknown [192.168.100.101]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6FE18F2; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47874AFE.5000309@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:54:54 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBTY2jCmm9lbGVy?= Organization: RISCworks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <4787457C.4050209@gmail.com> <47874672.10804@riscworks.net> <47874891.6050802@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47874891.6050802@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:54:56 -0000 thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Timo Schšoeler wrote: >> thus Aryeh M. Friedman spake: >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> >>>> The license is *perfect* and works for decades now. I'm pretty >>>> sure people know when they can 'effort' it to contribute to an >>>> OSS prject like FreeBSD. If they have time to do so and the >>>> will to do so, they will do it. If not, then they won't do it. >>>> >>>> The license is not responsible for coders' lives in a way to >>>> make sure they can 'live' (rent an appartment, eat, drink, >>>> whatever). >>>> >>>> Furthermore: Even the GPL does not regulate this. >>>> >>>> (Total waste of time...) >>> Accept to direct most of this to the hopefully newly created >>> -legal@ list >> I doubt there will be such a list. Maybe they should just create a >> /dev/null-likeee list called flames@ ? > > See the actual purposal (not mine) and you see there are perfectly > legit reasons for such a list that have nothing to do with this thread >>> just let me say forcing people to pick between morals and money >>> has never been a good option. >> True, as money is on the place in the universe where morals is at >> maximum distance to. > > Much of current thinking in economics actually says they are in fact > flip sides of the same coin. A forth coming book (which I am not > allowed to cite for an other few months due to a NDA) take direct aim > at the above false paradox. It is the thesis of the book that almost > all bad aspects of the modern macro world are due to incomplete > understandings of the interplay between them. Economics is, in contrast to as what it is sold as, _no_ science. It's total crap. Far away from logic, far away from humanism, far away from being useable in whatever way. Must be a ultra-important book, if it's so secret. Wow. The interplay is just plain fucking simple: There are, for decades now, 100,000 people dying of hunger each and every single day, *although* there's enough being produced to feed double the amount of people living on this planet: Mankind could feed *twelve billion* people. But nobody of those 'in power' wants to do it. There's war spread all over the world by the world's most democratic country, in order to get geopolitical advantages and *oil*. Hundrets of thousands of people dying in these wars. Why is that? It's main purpose is to keep *your* V8 running and *you* able to buy an iPhone. This is in order that *you* *don't* start *thinking*. But this is now totally OT; please feel free to send me private email, I like this kind of discussion as I'm very interested and active in policital things. Please do *NOT* cc: freebsd-current@. Thanks, Timo > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:56:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC3116A46C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:56:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3953C13C4D9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:56:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A50BB.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.80.187]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0BAuTxG008342; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:56:32 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BAvnUj065491; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:57:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BAvink090253; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:57:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801111057.m0BAvink090253@fire.js.berklix.net> to: John Baldwin In-reply-to: <200801091236.m09Ca4H6042679@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <200801081939.42297.jhb@freebsd.org> <200801091236.m09Ca4H6042679@fire.js.berklix.net> Comments: In-reply-to "Julian H. Stacey" message dated "Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:36:04 +0100." Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:57:44 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A quick and dirty lpt patch.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:56:34 -0000 "Julian H. Stacey" wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > Fixing ppbus to act sanely with interrupts is going to require a bit of work > .. ELided for space. > > > Hack patch is at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/ppbus_intr.patch and > > inline below. I know it compiles, but I haven't runtested it. :) > > Hi John cc current, > PLIP (Parallel IP) has been dead for years, last good on 4.11 > Any chance your current or future patches might fix that ? > If so, I have machine(s) here running 7-Stable I can test against > (& cables proven good on 4.11, & still 2 x 4.11 hosts where PLIP works). > > (Yes PLIP is slow, but when pcmcia ethernet wont work on some laptops > it's great to have, one of my older laptops is now just SLIP-115200) Hi John B, cc current@ I didn't see an answer ? & the patch has disappeared. 404 - Not Found -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:57:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9E816A468; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332BC13C457; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00LLV7RWEZK0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BAvVgt011778; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:57:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:57:31 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <200801111054.m0BAsjPf090176@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-id: <47874B9B.90400@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <200801111054.m0BAsjPf090176@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Astrodog , postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:33 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Postmaster@, cc current@ > > Astrodog wrote: >> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. >> >> >> Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it >> would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace >> licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. > > Good idea. no pre- existing similar list on: > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > I checked before my Message-Id: > <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> Since which Aryeh > Friedman continues to dump licensing chat on current@ & refuses to > move to chat@. Just to put my $.02 in I completely support this idea. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh0ubjRvRjGmHRgQRAqD+AJ9hK8ygkLjOvefu2e4Ty70NeYbgBwCgizq6 DNzPG4zjJa/unIUikJFaq3w= =L7Ix -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:58:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF6B16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:58:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12B213C448 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:58:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BAwB6c001076; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:58:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BAwAMG001075; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:58:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:58:10 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net In-Reply-To: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:58:11 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:58:13 -0000 Timo Schoeler wrote: > [...] While I agree with many of your points, I need to write a small comment on this one: > FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated in > bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used to be*. > It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD Audio... Is > there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already ported to FreeBSD? No? FreeBSD supported soundcards from day one, in the good old days of the 8bit SoundBlaster cards. Today, many computers (especially laptops) come with HD audio hardware that works only in HD mode. It requires an HD audio driver to do anything more than a square wave beep. Without the HD audio driver, I wouldn't be able to play any sound on most of my newer computers, which is why I am very grateful to the people (Ariff and others) who worked on that driver. I certainly would not want to switch to a different OS just because of sound support. > So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' I think the real answer is: You cannot prevent anyone from writing a piece of software, no matter how useless or ridiculous it might be for the majority of users. If there's someone who wants to write a driver for a USB christmas tree or for a bluetooth canned laughter device -- he will do it, and you can't keep him from doing it. It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant and well maintained. But even if it doesn't go into the tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several years I maintained some patches that improved syscons (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked fine for me and a few others. You can't tell people how to waste their resources in their free time. They waste it on whatever they want, no matter what the FreeBSD project tells them, no matter if there's a strong leader or not. Of course, things are a little different when certain pieces of software are sponsored (like the TrustedBSD stuff), or when they are done for other purposes than for pure fun, e.g. as part of a students project. That's how things like IPFW and DUMMYNET came to life, IIRC. > The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from FreeBSD > (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company could no > longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, because they had > way too many problems with it), then a chain reaction is started. Actually I think that bsdforen.de issue is overrated (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). It's true that there are certainly problems, as the OP explained in his initial posting. Those problems do exist; I've been a victim of one or another myself. But I don't think that significant amounts of FreeBSD people are now running away from it. Especially long-time FreeBSD people should know better than to run away. Everybody who's been following FreeBSD seriously for a few years or more should know how to produce _good_ bug reports and get them to the attention of developers, especially when they're critical and affect many people. Several of the PRs submitted by myself are still open and idle, but those are simply not critical enough to waste time hunting developers. All of my PRs that I regard as critical have been taken care of. Personally I've always looked in the directions of other OS projects (Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and recently Dragon- Fly), and even tried them out sometimes on spare machines or just within qemu. None of them convinced me enough to replace FreeBSD for production use, though, for various reasons. In fact there were instances when certain pieces of hardware were reliably supported by FreeBSD, but not at all by Linux. (I should tell those stories on chat@.) Well, to get at least a little bit on-topic here, let me say that I think that -current seems to be in a very good state today. I've been mostly following the -stable branches on the machines I'm responsible for, but I also give -current a try every now and then, just to get a feel for what's happening at the "bleeding edge". Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd C++: "an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog" -- Steve Taylor, 1998 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:13:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF18416A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw2.york.ac.uk (mail-gw2.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.247]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AFF13C455 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from mail-gw7.york.ac.uk (mail-gw7.york.ac.uk [144.32.129.30]) by mail-gw2.york.ac.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0BBDThg028113; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:29 GMT Received: from buffy-128.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.160] helo=buffy.york.ac.uk) by mail-gw7.york.ac.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JDHpJ-0004CB-RN; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:29 +0000 Received: from buffy.york.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BBDTDX083467; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:29 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: (from ga9@localhost) by buffy.york.ac.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BBDS2r083466; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:28 GMT (envelope-from gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: buffy.york.ac.uk: ga9 set sender to gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk using -f From: Gavin Atkinson To: Timo =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sch=9Aoeler?= In-Reply-To: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:28 +0000 Message-Id: <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-York-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-York-MailScanner-From: gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:33 -0000 As much as I don't want to get involved in this thread, I feel I should at least respond to this part of it. If you are planning to respond to this by trying to bring licensing issues up again, please do not waste your time. Take it to -chat@ or reply to me off-list. On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 10:46 +0100, Timo Sch=B9oeler wrote: > Everybody works on his own stuff, to earn the merits (if there are any=20 > besides 'glory'). The thing that is missing is satisfaction -- if you=20 > can feel satisfaction that your code works, then it's regardless of=20 > whether it was build by you or a team you were part of. This is true. Satisfaction that you have achieved and contributed something is pretty much the only thing that a non-profit organisation like FreeBSD can offer to people willing to work for free. > FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated in=20 > bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used to be*.=20 > It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD Audio... Is=20 > there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already ported to FreeBSD? No? >=20 > So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' That's=20 > a typical answer that might be given in only one context: There's no=20 > real 'agenda' of where to go with FreeBSD. I would really question this. The guys who wrote the HD Audio driver obviously needed it. As somebody who was involved (in a small way) at the very start with writing this driver, I can say that I was involved with it because I *needed* it. I need my laptop to be able to produce sound, and without a driver for the sound card, I would have had to use a different OS. Have you never needed sound on any of your machines? I use FreeBSD on my desktop machines so need it there, but I also use FreeBSD for streaming several radio stations over the Internet. If the HD audio driver didn't exist, I'd have to use a different OS there. > As I wrote yesterday, 'If I want features, I run Linux.' I take a not so=20 > stable OS and can connect my new USB Digital Camera to it, or my CardBus=20 > HD Audio device, or whatever. The Linux guys import every single crappy=20 > unneccessary driver into their kernel, that's why APIs are changing as=20 > often as some developers change their underwear, and why Linux is NOT=20 > stable. I don't think FreeBSD will ever get to the point where "every single crappy unnecessary driver is in the kernel". Take a look inside GENERIC - pretty much every single storage device controller and network card is in there, and things like keyboard controllers for PS2 and USB, but very little else. Basically, almost everything in there is there to allow an initial install to happen. No sound, no drivers for 3D cards, no drivers for lesser used filesystems. Sure, they are available as modules if you need them, but if you don't then I don't see why their very existence is of any concern. There seems to be quite a high barrier for the inclusion of drivers into GENERIC. > If I want a stable server that can (although not should) achieve very=20 > high uptimes, I choose FreeBSD. However, this might change. I would not deny that FreeBSD has some stability issues. There are some areas where serious work needs to be put in to improve reliability. I do not believe that the addition of a HD Audio driver, or the 'agenda' through which it was included is to blame. People develop code because they want to, and people develop the code that they want to. =20 > I simply doubt that todays FreeBSD's quality, robustness can keep pace=20 > with the quality it had some years ago. I think a couple of years ago this was true, but things are changing for the better very quickly. Peter Holm's stress testing suite, Kris Kennaway's constant hammering of FreeBSD to breaking point and thorough investigation of failure mode, and countless new individuals like myself working in their own small way to improve the OS they care for have, in my opinion, produced in FreeBSD 7 (and partially in later 6.x releases), performance and stability that hasn't been seen since FreeBSD 4. =20 Gavin From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:15:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4584F16A469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:15:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B303913C468 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:15:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BBFS3F001843; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:15:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BBFPdb001842; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:15:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:15:25 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111115.m0BBFPdb001842@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk, stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:15:29 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk, stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:15:34 -0000 Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > -i 95 -p 50 -r 50 made my T43p much more responsive It should be mentioned that you need to be a little careful with the -p option. When I lowered the value to the point where it seemed to have an actual effect, powerd started to consume a measurable amount of CPU performance. I think that powerd _should_ consume near zero CPU for its purpose. So if you play with the -p option, I recommend to watch it in top(1), so the cure doesn't turn out to be worse than the desease. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "File names are infinite in length, where infinity is set to 255 characters." -- Peter Collinson, "The Unix File System" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:21:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CEE16A469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:21:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA3B13C4CE; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:21:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47875131.4040802@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:21:21 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dominic Fandrey References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:21:25 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Dominic Fandrey wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I'm writing this mail on behalf of the largest German BSD community >> (http://bsdforen.de/). Some of our most respected and experienced >> community >> members have stopped using FreeBSD entirely, especially professional >> users >> have taken this step. >> >> Many of us are very attached to FreeBSD and those of us who turn our >> backs to >> the system consider this a personal loss. >> >> This mail is the result of a forum thread that consists of more than >> 200 posts >> (still growing) that started in October 2007 >> (http://www.bsdforen.de/showthread.php?t=19426). It is meant to sum up >> the >> causes of this development, the reasons we see for this and what we think >> might be promising ways to try solve these problems; at least in the >> areas we >> were able to achieve consent. >> >> The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are >> suffering >> for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a >> hard disk >> suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and >> stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been >> ignored. Only >> on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken >> seriously. >> >> The second big problem is the handling of regressions. PRs remain >> unanswered >> or the reporters are told that the regressions they report do not >> exist. Some >> of our members have even suffered the experience that they developed a >> patch, >> but it simply was ignored or turned down for the reason that it was a >> "Linux >> solution". Especially frustrating for those among us who have never >> looked at >> Linux code. >> >> These problems seem to be exceptions, but they are very persistent >> exceptions. >> Problems concerning code that is currently being worked on are shown >> much >> attention, feedback and patches are happily taken and the developers >> supply >> the problem reporter with steps to take in order to track down these >> problems. >> >> The problem seems, in our opinion, to reside with unmaintained code. >> It seems >> that nobody wants to take responsibility for code that has been >> untouched for >> a longer period of time. This is quite understandable, considering that >> developers already have projects they're working on and probably >> consider much >> more important, but that does not make it less of a problem. >> >> What we think might be a solution to the regression problem, would be the >> establishing of a Regressions Team, similar to other teams like the >> Security >> Team. The sole purpose of this team would be to take care of >> regressions that >> concern unmaintained code. >> >> To solve the performance problems it appears to us, that a guide to >> tracking >> performance problems or a performance test suite is required. This would >> hopefully allow us to write PRs and emails that would be taken more >> seriously. >> >> - Dominic Fandrey on behalf of BSDForen.de community > > Thanks for the feedback. It is hard to respond to the reports of poor > performance or other problems without specific information though. FYI this was not a dismissal, it was an invitation for you to follow up with the specific problems your members have seen so we can try to evaluate them. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:27:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7FB16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BB413C46A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A8D209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:28 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8DB2099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1BC3784490; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:28 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Stefan Lambrev References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> (Stefan Lambrev's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 11\:34\:56 +0200") Message-ID: <86prw8eh5r.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: bruno@FreeBSD.org, njl@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:27:36 -0000 Stefan Lambrev writes: > While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq > under let's say 1000HZ? I want to manually set the allowed minimum, > because my laptop is lagging too much under certain speeds. The whole point of powerd is to automatically adapt to the load. If your laptop "lags too much" powerd should detect that and increase the CPU frequency. However, poor interactive response can result when CPU frequency fluctuates too quickly; perhaps your problem will go away with Andrew's patch, which is intended to dampen such fluctuations? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:51:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639B916A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD35A13C461 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so634116uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:51:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=7gWhZs11eEz1T8vLVO53lWuoec+xy9IgMh2Qs/S3nQw=; b=KX7WwJcF2nVWv8fr0xyoUfbv0eaQ6gepGoawlI+Sc89iIW+LW1jhHeuWS7/Hhz1Rqn/4ouY+SvWYYDBZJtcUPMIjrgX4/eGHk60D+mCmU9dyolhJ/EyS1fvv9rfnAFqqs0Ofw2/qAV9lfI4HeGnUgyJ5nrzzQOavVioWWOdwj48= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dCzz7djwVMqXbWCeLrBR5pls1yufupNs7wkqnY1mfGREEeAkqT5u1stwpwhKsqrJChsPm8dtbtFI7D/wsu7vDM9qJ/rMaXAh82Km8+ZfR1H218L+wKQJ6P0Q0wJb0OPMx2TVVfF9zHpIo1f1MhGWpHJTKStm108FWYhqTAn3Im0= Received: by 10.67.26.7 with SMTP id d7mr4702813ugj.23.1200052267534; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:51:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:07 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <86prw8eh5r.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> <86prw8eh5r.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 603cf593435b804b Cc: bruno@freebsd.org, njl@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Stefan Lambrev Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:09 -0000 On 11/01/2008, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > The whole point of powerd is to automatically adapt to the load. If > your laptop "lags too much" powerd should detect that and increase the > CPU frequency. However, poor interactive response can result when CPU > frequency fluctuates too quickly; perhaps your problem will go away with > Andrew's patch, which is intended to dampen such fluctuations? I was also thinking that the power increase probably shouldn't be linear, maybe there should be a choice of algs: 2-step, 50%-100%, etc. Normally you don't mind power dropping slowly, but for most things you don't want to wait N-seconds for the clock to be stepped up to its full throttle... Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 08:50:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C48516A468 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148F613C459 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B8o9Qs096982; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:50:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0B8o9hK096981; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:50:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:50:09 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801110850.m0B8o9hK096981@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, aryeh.friedman@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <4786F6F1.9020609@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:50:10 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:09:24 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:50:12 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > - Use chat@freebsd, Or > > Already explained And it has already been pointed out several times why your explanation is incorrect. Very simple: Basically, the chat list is for everything that's off-topic on all other lists. Legal and licensing issues are off-topic on all other lists, so the correct list would be chat@, by definition. Another list that _might_ be somewhat related to these things is the advocacy@ list. It's not perfect, but a lot better than the current@ list which is only about discussing the development (i.e. code) of the -current branch. > > - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, > > eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software > > Patents" > > I have suggested that and most people seem to see no need to for it > thus we are left with inapporiate forums... Wrong. There is an apporopriate forum: chat@ (or maybe advocacy@ if you prefer). You just refuse to use it and continue to post to inappropriate lists. If I were postmaster@, I would blacklist you if you continued to violate the list chartes. Fortunately I'm not postmaster@. ;-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "The last good thing written in C was Franz Schubert's Symphony number 9." -- Erwin Dieterich From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 09:20:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F3716A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:20:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.29]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4782413C461 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:20:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [82.95.250.254]) by smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0B9KGce003298; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:20:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0B9KFb7017746; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:20:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.6/Submit) id m0B9KFhq017745; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:20:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:20:15 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:10:19 +0000 Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Aryeh M. Friedman" Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:20:19 -0000 Quoting Poul-Henning Kamp, who wrote on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 09:18:12AM +0000 .. > In message <47873174.4040802@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > > >> Ny scheme that depends on us changing the license is a non-starter > >> for both practical (we'd need to get everybodys acceptance of that, > >> and piss of a large number of users who have cleared the BSD > >> license with their laywers) and ideological (we don't want to > >> create uncertainty about the well known and deeply established BSD > >> license). > >> > >> > >The revision I am suggesting [...] > > It does not matter. The BSD license will not be changed for the > reasons I stated. > > It ain't gonna happen. > > All you're doing now is hurting your case by annoyingly keeping barking > up the wrong tree. Worse, it is hurting FreeBSD because it burns committer cycles that better be spent on doing something sensible instead of arguing about a license change that will never happen. Wilko -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:57:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1837F16A46C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BED13C46A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C18F209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:56 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04762099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4D22844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 21\:59\:31 +0100") Message-ID: <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:44 +0000 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:06 -0000 [moved from -current to -chat] Timo Schoeler writes: > Part of the discussion on bsdforen.de was some people complaining that > parts of the base system (as well as [important] ports) do not work, > and are maintained very badly due to 'no interest'. Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development model. This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets written by the people who have an interest in it, either because they need it themselves, or because they find it intellectually satisfying, or because someone donated unsupported hardware, or because someone paid them to do it. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned txp(4) as an example of unmaintained code in the base system. It is a very good example of the above. It was ported from OpenBSD seven years ago by someone who was paid by his employer to do it, and had access to hardware and documentation. I doubt anyone else in the project does, because the hardware it supports is obsolete (it was discontinued five years ago), and was not widely used even when new. > FreeBSD seems to decay from release to release; don't get me wrong, I > *do* like new features, enhances SMP, ZFS, all this stuff, no problem. > *BUT* please don't forget the basis. It wouldn't surprise me if ls(1) > doesn't work when 8.0 is released. You're over-dramatizing; I hope you don't really believe in what you just wrote, because it's completely wrong and unjustified. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:59:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCD316A468; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5844713C4DD; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A812099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:14 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31E0207E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 98321844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 04\:23\:49 -0500") Message-ID: <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:13:41 +0000 Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:18 -0000 [moved to -chat from -current] "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed > and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of > close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I > was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:12:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DCD16A417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231DB13C455; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5255620BB; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5B420B9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 20E5384490; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <1364.1200005306@critter.freebsd.dk> <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 23\:54\:02 -0500") Message-ID: <86tzlkehud.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:22:47 +0000 Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 -0000 [moved to -chat from -current] "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > 2. Should we rely largely on donations (both small and large)? Oh, goodie! I get to whip out my favorite rant! Actually, I'm too lazy to retype it, so here's a link to the last time I used it: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-April/070607.html DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 12:37:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E09C16A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sepherosa@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.234]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0456113C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sepherosa@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id l8so587213nzf.13 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:37:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=5gqjodomhkdc8DhPHNBcWH40s61GPZ55zjMx+by0HXk=; b=ABim2IyO9AVn7iEwClJus/Xd4gBZdYPUb/eCr660hS0fkmjNsZ7kBATjiYc+plSEI/EBfO9jgJr1ivGRh3Nakl/UPpj28isBRxXIDQDTdSif/+kXdVjTqOaYwemEo0gwI6OI8LCywykKOxVlmn0YnjqsSPYMSLK2phAyFrHiw3s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K2xGL6fPAop2DSm0Pecv/2w6joWtgb+DVgEVmSJnCdADIsq6fwixzaJg12qRzOsGhEHC/sYpwWXBHcO18yf1kxSWx/hZh2EGk5Qw6ZsCDsdkTYi3aACcANC4ZCL6yvsC3BgxjAQa63V4QDZTfKsXOF54wn4fB2bqZK6ySiLnC2Q= Received: by 10.142.49.4 with SMTP id w4mr1569655wfw.204.1200055059737; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.162.20 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:37:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:37:39 +0800 From: "Sepherosa Ziehau" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <864pds8idc.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <86ir2hznnd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnpu0wv.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnovy4k.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86odc3dlgi.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86lk76c6t5.fsf@ds4.des.no> <864pds8idc.fsf@ds4.des.no> Cc: kevlo@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: if_ral regression X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:41 -0000 On Jan 5, 2008 10:19 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > "Sepherosa Ziehau" writes: > > This actually brings up two things: > > 1) I think we should ignore seq in multicast frames; this is permitted = in > > 802.11 standard. In dfly I did that, since one of our users > > encountered a broken commercial AP which is not 802.11e but uses > > different seq for data and beacon. > > 2) TX sequence. I think standards only mention QSTA/nQSTA, but not > > AP. Currently our AP uses per node TX seq, which means beacon's seq > > is difficult to choose, at least for 2560 based ral(4), whose beacons' > > seq need to be set by software. I saw Linksys AP uses one seq for all > > of the frames it sends. Sam, what's you opinion on this? > > > > I think if STA counts ral(4)'s beacon seq, as what we do currently, > > beacon missing will quickly happen since beacons will be discarded > > after first several data frames. > > OK, I *think* I understood most of that. Does this suggest a solution > to you? I will try to get the wlandebug output tonight. I don't know whether you are still interested to track down the wired problem you had experienced. If you have time please try following patches: revert the old patch at your AP side and try this one http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/rt2560_test.diff1 apply following patch at you STA side http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/ieee80211_input.c.diff Best Regards, sephe --=20 Live Free or Die From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 12:42:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD26F16A419; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:42:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from smtp7.yandex.ru (smtp7.yandex.ru [213.180.200.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8935813C44B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:42:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from ns.kirov.so-cdu.ru ([77.72.136.145]:42442 "EHLO [127.0.0.1]" smtp-auth: "bu7cher" TLS-CIPHER: "DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA keybits 256/256 version TLSv1/SSLv3" TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by mail.yandex.ru with ESMTP id S738444AbYAKMmM (ORCPT + 2 others); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:42:12 +0300 X-Yandex-Spam: 1 X-Yandex-Front: smtp7 X-Yandex-TimeMark: 1200055332 X-MsgDayCount: 4 X-Comment: RFC 2476 MSA function at smtp7.yandex.ru logged sender identity as: bu7cher Message-ID: <4787641D.4040409@yandex.ru> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:42:05 +0300 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5 (FreeBSD/20051231) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wildes Miranda References: <674705.6718.qm@web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <674705.6718.qm@web33607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Xin LI , S?ren Schmidt Subject: Re: ATI SB600/700/800 tester wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:42:21 -0000 Wildes Miranda wrote: > the patch works, but i didn't tested the workload yet. > User operations is working fine. This patch will be > commited ? I don't know.. Maybe Soren or Xin can say something? > This patch will be needed if could AHCI > mode be set by other way , as loader ? No. If your BIOS has an AHCI/RAID option, then controller usual should be detected as AHCI. -- WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 12:49:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40A516A419; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D11E13C442; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAB02089; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:49:35 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0FA207E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:49:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 598C2844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:49:34 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Sepherosa Ziehau" References: <86ir2hznnd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnpu0wv.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnovy4k.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86odc3dlgi.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86lk76c6t5.fsf@ds4.des.no> <864pds8idc.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:49:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Sepherosa Ziehau's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 20\:37\:39 +0800") Message-ID: <86abncedcx.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: kevlo@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: if_ral regression X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:49:43 -0000 "Sepherosa Ziehau" writes: > revert the old patch at your AP side and try this one > http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/rt2560_test.diff1 I will, thanks. > apply following patch at you STA side > http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/ieee80211_input.c.diff My STA side doesn't run FreeBSD... the only laptop I have that does has a flat battery and I can't find the mains adapter :( DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 12:57:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05D516A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:57:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3900613C4EB; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:57:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id DCC241B10EF4; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:57:52 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on blah.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.7 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, J_CHICKENPOX_38,MIME_8BIT_HEADER autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from hater.haters.org (hater.cmotd.com [192.168.3.125]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314C51B10EDC; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:57:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <478767CD.6010709@moneybookers.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:57:49 +0200 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071120) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> <86prw8eh5r.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86prw8eh5r.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5475/Fri Jan 11 11:24:56 2008 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: bruno@FreeBSD.org, njl@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:57:54 -0000 Hi, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Stefan Lambrev writes: > =20 >> While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq >> under let's say 1000HZ? I want to manually set the allowed minimum, >> because my laptop is lagging too much under certain speeds. >> =20 > > The whole point of powerd is to automatically adapt to the load. If > your laptop "lags too much" powerd should detect that and increase the > CPU frequency. However, poor interactive response can result when CPU > frequency fluctuates too quickly; perhaps your problem will go away wit= h > Andrew's patch, which is intended to dampen such fluctuations? > > DES > =20 I'll try this patch, but in my situation powerd drops cpufreq to 300HZ,=20 and at this point switching windows (alt-tab) is too lagged. I do not think that powerd can increase fast enough the freq to let me=20 switch between application without lagging (and without eating too much cpu power). Hardcoding the minimum to 600HZ (~27% of the CPU power) seems to work=20 very good with other default settings on my 2.2GHz core2 duo. If I'm able to select this through powerd option it will be great. Also on laptops with ATI cards (FireGL 5200), that run with vesa driver, = dropping cpufreq under 1GHZ leads to very lagged output in xterm. It will be great if/when the user can make specific profiles, not just=20 having min,adaptive and max profiles. --=20 Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:01:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B78716A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:01:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E472613C46A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:01:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFD6136E0008 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 667701A44 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:44 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:01:41 -0000 Thus Oliver Fromme spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:58:10 +0100 (CET): > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > [...] > > While I agree with many of your points, I need to write a > small comment on this one: > > > FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated > > in bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used > > to be*. It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD > > Audio... Is there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already > > ported to FreeBSD? No? > > FreeBSD supported soundcards from day one, in the good old > days of the 8bit SoundBlaster cards. Sure, and that is absolutely not a problem (see below). > Today, many computers (especially laptops) come with HD > audio hardware that works only in HD mode. It requires > an HD audio driver to do anything more than a square wave > beep. Without the HD audio driver, I wouldn't be able > to play any sound on most of my newer computers, which > is why I am very grateful to the people (Ariff and others) > who worked on that driver. I certainly would not want to > switch to a different OS just because of sound support. Okay, that shows me that I (and some guys on bsdforen.de, too) chose a bad example. I thought that almost any sound device on PeeCees can be addressed like almost every graphics board can be addressed via VESA. As this is not the case, it's perfectly alright to write a driver for it (what I never questioned, btw!), *and* to take it into the repository. > > So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' > > I think the real answer is: You cannot prevent anyone > from writing a piece of software, no matter how useless > or ridiculous it might be for the majority of users. I don't want to do this, either. Sorry, my argumentation on this was not clear enough... > If > there's someone who wants to write a driver for a USB > christmas tree or for a bluetooth canned laughter device > -- he will do it, and you can't keep him from doing it. So above, (s)he shall be happy doing so. > It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > and well maintained. It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > But even if it doesn't go into the > tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > fine for me and a few others. But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was imported instead? This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. OpenBSD gets this straight very well (and no, I'm no longer a fanboy of OpenBSD, if interested why, send me a PM). They put emphasis on security, and they get this job done very very well. > You can't tell people how to waste their resources in their > free time. They waste it on whatever they want, no matter > what the FreeBSD project tells them, no matter if there's > a strong leader or not. They can waste their own time, but they shouldn't waste others. Wasting time of others (or FreeBSD developers, the core team, system administrators that have to deal with problems that arise because of that, users in trouble, etc) can be prevented when paying attention to priorities defined and introduced before... > Of course, things are a little different when certain > pieces of software are sponsored (like the TrustedBSD > stuff), or when they are done for other purposes than > for pure fun, e.g. as part of a students project. > That's how things like IPFW and DUMMYNET came to life, > IIRC. > > > The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from > > FreeBSD (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company > > could no longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, > > because they had way too many problems with it), then a chain > > reaction is started. > > Actually I think that bsdforen.de issue is overrated > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > community, but that's a different story). Pride goes before a fall. Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; furthermore, some guys (if I filtered this license crap correctly) see the points made quite similar. > It's true that > there are certainly problems, as the OP explained in his > initial posting. Those problems do exist; I've been a > victim of one or another myself. But I don't think that > significant amounts of FreeBSD people are now running away > from it. Especially long-time FreeBSD people should know > better than to run away. It's the same here: I test other OSs (as well as Linux distros) on a quite regular basis, and I'm very happy being back in BSD land. It just works. But I want that it stays this way ;) > Everybody who's been following > FreeBSD seriously for a few years or more should know how > to produce _good_ bug reports and get them to the attention > of developers, especially when they're critical and affect > many people. Several of the PRs submitted by myself are > still open and idle, but those are simply not critical > enough to waste time hunting developers. All of my PRs > that I regard as critical have been taken care of. That's cool. I hope the automated reporting that was discussed and implemented will show further progress in getting things done better. > Personally I've always looked in the directions of other > OS projects (Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and recently Dragon- > Fly), and even tried them out sometimes on spare machines > or just within qemu. None of them convinced me enough to > replace FreeBSD for production use, though, for various > reasons. In fact there were instances when certain pieces > of hardware were reliably supported by FreeBSD, but not > at all by Linux. (I should tell those stories on chat@.) That doesn't surprise me (and yes, please tell those stories, I'm curious). > Well, to get at least a little bit on-topic here, let me > say that I think that -current seems to be in a very good > state today. Though running 7 here, I'll try it ASAP (as soon as I have today's backup save). > I've been mostly following the -stable > branches on the machines I'm responsible for, but I also > give -current a try every now and then, just to get a feel > for what's happening at the "bleeding edge". I've been on NetBSD-current for quite some years, and it was sometimes quite hard when not on x86/amd64 (was on macppc). Doesn't matter at all, however ;) > Best regards > Oliver > > -- > Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Best regards, Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:12:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8FC516A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:12:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195C713C4CC; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:12:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:12:25 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Timo Schoeler References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:12:29 -0000 Timo Schoeler wrote: >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant >> and well maintained. > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem > (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, import the > USB christmas tree device driver and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink > as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > >> But even if it doesn't go into the >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked >> fine for me and a few others. > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some others, > if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? Maybe > because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was imported > instead? > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other "more important" parts of the tree. In almost all cases it does not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless they already wanted to do that. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:51:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AF316A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373E313C4DD for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:51:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0548EC6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D16BC1C07; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:28 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:51:25 -0000 Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:12:25 +0100: > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > >> and well maintained. > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, > > import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? > > Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was > > imported instead? > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on > e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other > "more important" parts of the tree. No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > In almost all cases it does > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > they already wanted to do that. That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, why code at all? > Kris Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:59:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB47E16A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:59:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from smtp-3.dlr.de (smtp-3.dlr.de [195.37.61.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AF513C4F6 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:59:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de ([129.247.173.6]) by smtp-3.dlr.de over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:26 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:26 +0100 (CET) From: Harti Brandt X-X-Sender: brandt_h@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Message-ID: <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-OpenPGP-Key: harti@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 13:59:26.0195 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D2FB430:01C8545A] Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Harti Brandt List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:59:29 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing TS>underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be TS>more efficient, and would help the project even more. TS> TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas TS>tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. TS> TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing TS>both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you TS>are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't TS>join the marathon...!) Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at least much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe Pass at 1/4 the speed while I could import ZFS during that time ... People just bring to FreeBSD what they like to do, not what would be the best for you or others. If you want them to change priorities according to YOUR needs, pay them money. harti From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:01:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDF716A478 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C2713C4CC for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH0070YGAHIXT0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BE1TvE000488; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:01:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:01:29 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> To: Harti Brandt Message-id: <478776B9.4040609@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:33 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Harti Brandt wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > doing TS>underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized > stuff would be TS>more efficient, and would help the project even > more. TS> TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do > both, the Xmas TS>tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > TS> TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really > *capable* of doing TS>both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower > priority' thing. If you TS>are at the olympic stadium and you're > the best sprinter, you wouldn't TS>join the marathon...!) > > Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at least > much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe Pass at > 1/4 the speed while I could import ZFS during that time ... People > just bring to FreeBSD what they like to do, not what would be the > best for you or others. If you want them to change priorities > according to YOUR needs, pay them money. > Very small point that is the goal of various purposes floating around... no back to regular program - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh3a4jRvRjGmHRgQRAtZcAJ9M/kwPyG6qHUNZ95RwPct8k8L6VACcCWjP sgR4jff/Q6ASUmF2fxv2IHI= =k/Jt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:02:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C057016A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5007C13C4D1 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86C3C6F189C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:02:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 44C1C1A8B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:01 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Gavin Atkinson Message-Id: <20080111150301.8db7fe96.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:59 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Gavin Atkinson spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:28 +0000: > As much as I don't want to get involved in this thread, I feel I > should at least respond to this part of it. If you are planning to > respond to this by trying to bring licensing issues up again, please > do not waste your time. Take it to -chat@ or reply to me off-list. > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 10:46 +0100, Timo SchÅ¡oeler wrote: > > > Everybody works on his own stuff, to earn the merits (if there are > > any besides 'glory'). The thing that is missing is satisfaction -- > > if you can feel satisfaction that your code works, then it's > > regardless of whether it was build by you or a team you were part > > of. > > This is true. Satisfaction that you have achieved and contributed > something is pretty much the only thing that a non-profit organisation > like FreeBSD can offer to people willing to work for free. Yes, and it worked for years. Do I really have to use the past tense? > > FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated > > in bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used > > to be*. It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD > > Audio... Is there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already > > ported to FreeBSD? No? > > > > So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' > > That's a typical answer that might be given in only one context: > > There's no real 'agenda' of where to go with FreeBSD. > > I would really question this. The guys who wrote the HD Audio driver > obviously needed it. As somebody who was involved (in a small way) at > the very start with writing this driver, I can say that I was involved > with it because I *needed* it. I need my laptop to be able to produce > sound, and without a driver for the sound card, I would have had to > use a different OS. Have you never needed sound on any of your > machines? I use FreeBSD on my desktop machines so need it there, but > I also use FreeBSD for streaming several radio stations over the > Internet. If the HD audio driver didn't exist, I'd have to use a > different OS there. Okay, we (I) chose a bad example, I apalogize deeply. As I wrote in response to Oliver's eMail, I thought that almost all PeeCeeish sound devices can be at least in a basic way addressed in a way similar VESA <-> framebuffers. > > As I wrote yesterday, 'If I want features, I run Linux.' I take a > > not so stable OS and can connect my new USB Digital Camera to it, > > or my CardBus HD Audio device, or whatever. The Linux guys import > > every single crappy unneccessary driver into their kernel, that's > > why APIs are changing as often as some developers change their > > underwear, and why Linux is NOT stable. > > I don't think FreeBSD will ever get to the point where "every single > crappy unnecessary driver is in the kernel". Take a look inside > GENERIC > - pretty much every single storage device controller and network card > is in there, and things like keyboard controllers for PS2 and USB, > but very little else. Basically, almost everything in there is there > to allow an initial install to happen. No sound, no drivers for 3D > cards, no drivers for lesser used filesystems. Sure, they are > available as modules if you need them, but if you don't then I don't > see why their very existence is of any concern. There seems to be > quite a high barrier for the inclusion of drivers into GENERIC. See my other emails, I seem to have been not too precise on this. It's about time, efficiency, ressources etc. in general. > > If I want a stable server that can (although not should) achieve > > very high uptimes, I choose FreeBSD. However, this might change. > > I would not deny that FreeBSD has some stability issues. Bingo. That's what nobody would have said X years before. > There are > some areas where serious work needs to be put in to improve > reliability. I do not believe that the addition of a HD Audio > driver, or the 'agenda' through which it was included is to blame. > People develop code because they want to, and people develop the code > that they want to. > > > I simply doubt that todays FreeBSD's quality, robustness can keep > > pace with the quality it had some years ago. > > I think a couple of years ago this was true, but things are changing > for the better very quickly. Second Bingo. And I second that it gets better again. The 5.x was a deep valley to walk through, at least for me. > Peter Holm's stress testing suite, Kris > Kennaway's constant hammering of FreeBSD to breaking point and > thorough investigation of failure mode, and countless new individuals > like myself working in their own small way to improve the OS they > care for have, in my opinion, produced in FreeBSD 7 (and partially in > later 6.x releases), performance and stability that hasn't been seen > since FreeBSD 4. That sounds like the future I want to see. In general, I'm almost an ascetic in those things, but it's enough to make me smile. Thanks. > Gavin Timo PS: I appreciate the work of all the FreeBSD guys very very much, as it keeps my (FreeBSD) machines running. I just wanted to point out some weaknesses to *improve* things, and the thread was not started by me. Unfortunately, doing what I tried is next to impossible on entities like mailing lists. It's pathological, but it is the way it is. ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3cWUY3eBSqOgOMRCp7KAKCTvsqqektlKDmH6hqEWAIOUzVo1gCeILsF H3erkBTGtxiRAINRbWK3CZY= =vL2/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:05:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DD116A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:05:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DC213C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:05:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACD5C6F189C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:05:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 720761CB3; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:05:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:05:29 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Harti Brandt Message-Id: <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:05:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Harti Brandt spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:26 +0100 (CET): > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > TS>doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > TS>would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > TS> > TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the > TS>Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > TS> > TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > TS>doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. > TS>If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, > TS>you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at least > much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe Pass at 1/4 > the speed while I could import ZFS during that time ... People just > bring to FreeBSD what they like to do, not what would be the best for > you or others. If you want them to change priorities according to > YOUR needs, pay them money. > > harti Harti, you didn't get the point. You can also lead you dog into my yard, as long as you don't work on FreeBSD noone cares, really. The difference is *when* working on FreeBSD *what* do to -- xmas tree or ZFS. I thought this argumentation was pretty straightforward, but sometimes 2 +2 is really 5... Timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3epUY3eBSqOgOMRCki4AJ9wzhaAb+Qn5Qieb0SH50lT12S9SgCgmWHN Kfl2EzrdbrvyNLg4V4OgYIU= =riKO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:07:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED14216A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A65B13C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1205047fgg.35 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:07:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=1lnMt//PS44r3lUk+95tbCDVLvFgJ1mYfu41SHB+Prw=; b=GmPb1H9ohd6EAbnS7nam9bbgxCLA8Nc8Hnm6r++A1+f23qaEoJ/8xcWmp2/PUglcVaPCcdv6vl/QiemJmVKE/66YZogqutl8QqYcKnaIApF0tJpsmEjWhB6bi6Kq2k43VSZs4Lzs4I1r0NNx28RAmpAqmAKYAmC7luhHY/ktNfM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=jgRTrdO6jiGRsxI4f+TUDXazkDZWgibQKSK1PsK9uSodEak8eGQiISpC2VpHpAhHs2Q9eCoROq3tT3hFOdjG21oHg4unX82g8GsREY713zyW7lH6ii+pRWxihkkndiBw167Buc6QnSXonIbeE0bSr3e2ZuauDr2XBcB0nj9BaE8= Received: by 10.82.106.14 with SMTP id e14mr5294374buc.38.1200060438776; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z12sm2249602gvf.1.2008.01.11.06.07.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:07:17 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-rap/6v/0VoitezzoTH0I" Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:16 +0000 Message-Id: <1200060436.1713.40.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:21 -0000 --=-rap/6v/0VoitezzoTH0I Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 14:51 +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > 14:12:25 +0100: >=20 > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on=20 > > e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other > > "more important" parts of the tree. >=20 > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing > underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be > more efficient, and would help the project even more. >=20 > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. >=20 > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing > both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you > are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't > join the marathon...!) >=20 A developer will put his time into doing (major) things because of either personal reasons, or contractual reasons. Personal reasons would be because they want a feature, or a bug affects them. Contractual reasons would be because his employer requires those features. Some developers are truly selfless and will do things because it betters the overall system. I think you are assuming that this is the only reason things get done, and a developer working on the hypothetical /dev/uxmas, rather than rewriting the fs code to allow umass removal without unmounting first, is somehow not 'following to the code'. He isn't, he's scratching his itch. No-one can tell a volunteer what he should scratch. > > In almost all cases it does > > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > > would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > > they already wanted to do that. >=20 > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, why > code at all? Fun, pleasure, eternal glory. If YOU want it fixed, then fix it, or try to. I'm sure that for any problem you find, if you try to fix it and get stuck, there will be plenty of people to help you along the way.=20 If that is too much hassle, then it probably isn't important to you. It sounds harsh, but that is the difference between Linux and FreeBSD - there is no company out there whose purpose is to manage FreeBSD to placate users (which brings you into the contractual side of support - 'we must have this feature or we are not successful as a company'). This is all just my opinion, I've contributed little more than a few unaccepted patches (I'm working on my dvb-t card driver though :) Cheers Tom --=-rap/6v/0VoitezzoTH0I Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHh3gQlcRvFfyds/cRAl/JAJ4mMkIW86Xml1nWimfUZd6NM2J6nQCguYCr Vq6jaUIQ2YTVenRFBTLE8Vs= =ilks -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-rap/6v/0VoitezzoTH0I-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:07:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C843C16A46C for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E71313C469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00DL4GK830Y0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BE7JuC000516; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:07:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:07:19 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> To: Timo Schoeler Message-id: <47877817.4050006@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Harti Brandt Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:07:21 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > I thought this argumentation was pretty straightforward, but > sometimes 2 +2 is really 5... Or depending on how closed minded the reader anything in between including infinity _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh3gXjRvRjGmHRgQRAs1fAKCVqv/9Ma+0Kmhw+2iY7ul/qHrFkACePelC S3NNokc36AGEMrVyVzNKSSo= =iCQc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:43:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C77D16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:43:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from estrabd@gmail.com) Received: from bc1.hpc.lsu.edu (bc1.hpc.lsu.edu [130.39.198.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB72B13C43E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:43:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from estrabd@gmail.com) Received: from bc1.hpc.lsu.edu (localhost.hpc.lsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) by bc1.hpc.lsu.edu (8.14.1/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BE0jrM055364; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:45 GMT (envelope-from estrabd@gmail.com) Received: (from estrabd@localhost) by bc1.hpc.lsu.edu (8.14.1/8.13.8/Submit) id m0BE0jZd055363; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:45 GMT (envelope-from estrabd@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: bc1.hpc.lsu.edu: estrabd set sender to estrabd@gmail.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:45 +0000 From: "B. Estrade" To: Harti Brandt Message-ID: <20080111140045.GX6201@bc1.hpc.lsu.edu> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i mailed-by: estrabd@lsu.edu Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:43:21 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:59:26PM +0100, Harti Brandt wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing > TS>underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be > TS>more efficient, and would help the project even more. > TS> > TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > TS>tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > TS> > TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing > TS>both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you > TS>are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't > TS>join the marathon...!) > > Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at least much worse > than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe Pass at 1/4 the speed while > I could import ZFS during that time ... People just bring to FreeBSD what they > like to do, not what would be the best for you or others. If you want them > to change priorities according to YOUR needs, pay them money. Sorry for the additional noise, but - amen! That last sentence is a very key point, summarized very nicely. B > > harti > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:50:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4E816A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:50:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE4813C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:50:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1219688fgg.35 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:50:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:user-agent; bh=1N6zn+TSQOXwFoRLdKZPzBFXmp7Zi0XSVffbYzeaEdA=; b=ZAAxTYE6kswg2DSuaEF9azRa/zqN6JEshoUif19fxz0ZYpien9w0uESTWkbr1ioHCfRBgPfES1+clBIAs1OqbkoauO9idNMrfyek+UzdKCgvrfaJ51oVZ8+JdGInsX5KIiTJXdqMaw1C75EP8Xo6Biyj/jEP4gwdppvmtZvunJc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:user-agent; b=KsLEoXicmNEXNbfu8/6uYqIvUZBEtp4W+QC/OMxD0t0ibuu8X60WO9lVoUxtNgjKPETw5Fm05qHob3/mJNwDl5dwFZMCGv3NyNyUTE5rOljrk3vH16RAeWm6SK44NJjYdUdQPxF/1VvxA1xNkDO0VwVVRRdNFliD+mQrqP7xP58= Received: by 10.82.161.19 with SMTP id j19mr5356884bue.20.1200061421071; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm2229120gve.11.2008.01.11.06.23.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5443EB8FC; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:36 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Subject: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:50:09 -0000 Hi list, I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored by Google SoC 2007 programme. You can find the tarball at: http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz BSD ar is mostly compatible with GNU ar and it has advantages like: * BSD licensed. * hopefully cleaner and simpler. (build on libarchive and libelf) * inherited compression support from libarchive. (the usefulness of this function is limited though, since ld(1) does not recognize compressed .a files) * faster, due to the adoption of libarchive and libelf. (see benchmark below) Some details on the speedup brought by BSD ar: Below is a speed comparison of processing 5329 .o files (38 MB in total) in create, list and extract mode of both ar. The benchmark was done by the acp.sh script (you can find it in the tarball) which was adapted from Jan Psota's Tar Comparison Program. outcast% sh acp.sh ~/arobj . bsdar: BSD ar 1.0.0 - libarchive 2.4.10 gnuar: GNU ar 2.15 [FreeBSD] 2004-05-23 best time of 3 repetitions src=/home/kaiw/arobj, 38M in 5329 files archive=./acp.a, extract to ./acptmp program operation real user system speed bsdar create 2.17 0.26 0.68 15741 KB/s gnuar create 8.80 5.30 2.89 3881 KB/s bsdar list 0.04 0.00 0.04 854000 KB/s gnuar list 0.70 0.51 0.18 48800 KB/s bsdar extract 4.10 0.02 1.22 8331 KB/s gnuar extract 4.95 0.68 1.65 6901 KB/s Any feedback would be appreciated. After more thorough test, I'd like to bring it to the tree as an alternative ar. Testing I've done: 1. BSD ar's own test suite. (you can find it in the tarball) 2. make universe. Kai Wang From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:59:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED0716A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from smtp-3.dlr.de (smtp-3.dlr.de [195.37.61.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BB113C465 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de ([129.247.173.6]) by smtp-3.dlr.de over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:59:49 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:59:52 +0100 (CET) From: Harti Brandt X-X-Sender: brandt_h@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Message-ID: <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-OpenPGP-Key: harti@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 14:59:49.0773 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D01D3D0:01C85462] Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Harti Brandt List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:52 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: TS>Thus Harti Brandt spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 TS>14:59:26 +0100 (CET): TS> TS>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: TS>> TS>> TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's TS>> TS>doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff TS>> TS>would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. TS>> TS> TS>> TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the TS>> TS>Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. TS>> TS> TS>> TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of TS>> TS>doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. TS>> TS>If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, TS>> TS>you wouldn't join the marathon...!) TS>> TS>> Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at least TS>> much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe Pass at 1/4 TS>> the speed while I could import ZFS during that time ... People just TS>> bring to FreeBSD what they like to do, not what would be the best for TS>> you or others. If you want them to change priorities according to TS>> YOUR needs, pay them money. TS>> TS>> harti TS> TS>Harti, you didn't get the point. You can also lead you dog into my TS>yard, as long as you don't work on FreeBSD noone cares, really. The TS>difference is *when* working on FreeBSD *what* do to -- xmas tree or TS>ZFS. TS> TS>I thought this argumentation was pretty straightforward, but sometimes 2 TS>+2 is really 5... I don't see the difference between working on what I like to work on in FreeBSD and leading my dog (if I had one). It's just my choice because it is my time. If I'd be paid for working on FreeBSD, it'd be different. If I find the xmas tree controller more interesting than ZFS why should I work on ZFS? You assumption is that it matters for you on what I work, but it doesn't matter for me, so I could just work on what is good for you. Well, this entire thread is just utterly off-topic. harti From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:01:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D5F16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB2F13C447 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from c83-253-25-183.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.25.183]:52200 helo=falcon.midgard.homeip.net) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDLNX-0004F0-4e for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:01:03 +0100 Received: (qmail 36087 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 16:00:57 +0100 Received: from owl.midgard.homeip.net (10.1.5.7) by falcon.midgard.homeip.net with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2008 16:00:57 +0100 Received: (qmail 88088 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Jan 2008 16:00:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:00:57 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: Timo Schoeler Message-ID: <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Originating-IP: 83.253.25.183 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1JDLNX-0004F0-4e. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1JDLNX-0004F0-4e 4484f74e08e5cae970d322c2a6e3c9b6 Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:05 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, > > > import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? > > > Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was > > > imported instead? > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on > > e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other > > "more important" parts of the tree. > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing > underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be > more efficient, and would help the project even more. But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing > both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you > are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't > join the marathon...!) Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and doesn't care at all about the stuff that you happen to think should be high priority. > > > In almost all cases it does > > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > > would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > > they already wanted to do that. > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, why > code at all? > > > Kris > > Timo -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:03:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B60216A469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBA313C469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BF39h9097638; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0BF39u4097637; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:03:09 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: Michal Varga Message-ID: <20080111150309.GA97608@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community (Stop this!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:09 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:17:23AM +0100, Michal Varga wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 18:35 +0900, Astrodog wrote: > > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > > > > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-mr-friedman mailing list > or whatever else, but, PLEASE, stop this shit hitting our mailboxes. > This has gone way too far. > I've found the following procmailrc rules to be fairly effective at reducing spam in my inbox. Unfortunately, if the thread gets broken, I see the fallout. :( :0 H * ^From:.*(friedman) /dev/null :0 H * ^To:.*(friedman) /dev/null -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:04:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB7D16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59D913C447; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00M1OJ765AK0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BF4IGG000621; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:04:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:04:18 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> To: Harti Brandt Message-id: <47878572.8040200@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:04:20 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Harti Brandt wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > TS>Thus Harti Brandt spake on Fri, 11 Jan > 2008 TS>14:59:26 +0100 (CET): TS> TS>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo > Schoeler wrote: TS>> TS>> TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is > done ineffectively as he's TS>> TS>doing underprioritized stuff. > Working on higher prioritized stuff TS>> TS>would be more > efficient, and would help the project even more. TS>> TS> TS>> > TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the > TS>> TS>Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. TS>> > TS> TS>> TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really > *capable* of TS>> TS>doing both things, why should (s)he do the > 'lower priority' thing. TS>> TS>If you are at the olympic stadium > and you're the best sprinter, TS>> TS>you wouldn't join the > marathon...!) TS>> TS>> Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad > guitar player, at least TS>> much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet > I enjoy playing Joe Pass at 1/4 TS>> the speed while I could import > ZFS during that time ... People just TS>> bring to FreeBSD what > they like to do, not what would be the best for TS>> you or others. > If you want them to change priorities according to TS>> YOUR needs, > pay them money. TS>> TS>> harti TS> TS>Harti, you didn't get the > point. You can also lead you dog into my TS>yard, as long as you > don't work on FreeBSD noone cares, really. The TS>difference is > *when* working on FreeBSD *what* do to -- xmas tree or TS>ZFS. TS> > TS>I thought this argumentation was pretty straightforward, but > sometimes 2 TS>+2 is really 5... > > I don't see the difference between working on what I like to work > on in FreeBSD and leading my dog (if I had one). It's just my > choice because it is my time. If I'd be paid for working on > FreeBSD, it'd be different. If I find the xmas tree controller more > interesting than ZFS why should I work on ZFS? You assumption is > that it matters for you on what I work, but it doesn't matter for > me, so I could just work on what is good for you. > I suspose suicide is ok or taking drugs is ok on the same arg - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh4VyjRvRjGmHRgQRAo6ZAJ95nLg2xNF6JJiOpWVCsCfFhyY8UACfbnl6 hNU67zDpgM3NsWJ2MEnScTk= =W4m7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:06:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A516A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E0813C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:06:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so1143242rvb.43 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:06:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=4tK7QJlMPtsE+CRcLVaaQ0c7erMhuywT4g1cPZaZMOw=; b=w4W5qlkRVaH6xgDO4238f5vnGKfUqW0u6YA3+4i1COm3HL4NLllCl0b8aep/IMoXONkJ81okC9mgF1jLZrKYMhwkmkojRQOItmN7GpsI8CQ8pW2pVvDnSl0Z1ASgD6MzgbBIC+cc+YxddyLVP6ra6gUxOMPzcUjqbF+VEgi8lFU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=COX1cKqQ5sMmdsg8iJp9lnqKAKK0sNhHIwFivV8MDiqMNGdhaMXTTkyznTglpxoEiUw7LENTvR/KrYdW9rhj7FjJljZ1YzfbPQQCfvoMxTbiSAOWx5QJqwxp3RMwV+XlC5052ZtJ9paqNfmscv7hMd00sj0jro2JU51HKB4vEoI= Received: by 10.141.78.14 with SMTP id f14mr2077672rvl.6.1200064003218; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.74.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:06:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0801110706o21f2035cucd3a8048f47311f6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:06:43 +0900 From: Astrodog To: "Timo Schoeler" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, "Kris Kennaway" In-Reply-To: <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:06:44 -0000 To bring this back onto the subject of development... can we take this as a commitment from Kris Kennaway that FreeBSD will support USB Christmas trees in the near future? It'd be nice if he could add USB Missile Launcher support too... as clearly, FreeBSD system security should be both physical, and in software. --- Harrison From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:08:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42E816A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A42613C465 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH001J5JDA3GN0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BF7wEl000628; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:07:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:07:58 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> To: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Message-id: <4787864E.1020208@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Erik Trulsson wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: >> Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 >> 14:12:25 +0100: >> >>> Timo Schoeler wrote: >>> >>>>> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not into >>>>> GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant and >>>>> well maintained. >>>> It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more >>>> important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If >>>> this is the case, import the USB christmas tree device driver >>>> and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely >>>> no problem. >>>> >>>>> But even if it doesn't go into the tree, that's not a big >>>>> deal. For example, for several years I maintained some >>>>> patches that improved syscons (kern/15436). They didn't go >>>>> into CVS, but they worked fine for me and a few others. >>>> But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as >>>> some others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into >>>> the tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas >>>> device driver was imported instead? >>>> >>>> This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. >>> You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer >>> working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the >>> development of other "more important" parts of the tree. >> No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's >> doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff >> would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority > according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. And a different reward system would encourage a more socially responible approach on both sides. > > > >> Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the >> Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. >> >> (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of >> doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' >> thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best >> sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and > doesn't care at all about the stuff that you happen to think should > be high priority. The requirement that the work must be "fun" is a fatal flaw with FOSS once the projects actually start getting used by real people to do real work... like I said else where do you really want the DoD run by people who think war is "fun". - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh4ZOjRvRjGmHRgQRAh//AJ9UHUCxWvSLAPay9/OiyuoB2Wz5jgCghHMV rQ4nOfaisKm/DUxl/Irla3E= =eYGs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:10:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9591C16A480 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:10:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from smtp-1.dlr.de (smtp-1.dlr.de [195.37.61.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEAF13C4D3 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:10:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de ([129.247.173.6]) by smtp-1.dlr.de over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:10:17 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:10:19 +0100 (CET) From: Hartmut Brandt X-X-Sender: brandt_h@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-Reply-To: <47878572.8040200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080111160650.L60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <47878572.8040200@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 15:10:17.0130 (UTC) FILETIME=[12F0E8A0:01C85464] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:10:19 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: AMF>I suspose suicide is ok or taking drugs is ok on the same arg I get the feeling that I have something like Weizenbaum's Eliza on the other end. Just much more crappy. Shut up and try to come up with something useful! harti From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:13:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C3D16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFE713C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00DPDJLVCH21@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BFD7ui000645; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:07 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111160650.L60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> To: Hartmut Brandt Message-id: <47878783.9070000@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <47878572.8040200@gmail.com> <20080111160650.L60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hartmut Brandt wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > AMF>I suspose suicide is ok or taking drugs is ok on the same arg > > I get the feeling that I have something like Weizenbaum's Eliza on > the other end. Just much more crappy. > > Shut up and try to come up with something useful! If you had actually been reading I had been attempting that for the last few days... I so love knee jerk reactions - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh4eCjRvRjGmHRgQRAmTvAJ9TMrTOUhHHgMtgPZ7hucd4avSNCgCcD1j2 oRduLqSGGp0osSjx87IPLuE= =4DnZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:15:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8799216A469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from smtp-1.dlr.de (smtp-1.dlr.de [195.37.61.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E79E13C4D1 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de ([129.247.173.6]) by smtp-1.dlr.de over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:15:44 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:15:47 +0100 (CET) From: Hartmut Brandt X-X-Sender: brandt_h@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-Reply-To: <47878783.9070000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080111161434.J60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <47878572.8040200@gmail.com> <20080111160650.L60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <47878783.9070000@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 15:15:44.0890 (UTC) FILETIME=[D64D1DA0:01C85464] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:46 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: AMF>Hartmut Brandt wrote: AMF>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: AMF>> AMF>> AMF>I suspose suicide is ok or taking drugs is ok on the same arg AMF>> AMF>> I get the feeling that I have something like Weizenbaum's Eliza on AMF>> the other end. Just much more crappy. AMF>> AMF>> Shut up and try to come up with something useful! AMF> AMF>If you had actually been reading I had been attempting that for the AMF>last few days... I so love knee jerk reactions Oh hell, I'm working on FreeBSD while you just produce childish gibberish. Now I'm going to update my .procmailrc. This is unbearable. harti From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:15:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BBE16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8363F13C4D3; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA8DC6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:15:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A7A21D20; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:15:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:15:51 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Harti Brandt Message-Id: <20080111161551.f708f5ac.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111145557.C60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20080111150529.e96a7b1d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155532.Q60251@knop-beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Harti Brandt , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:15:48 -0000 Thus Harti Brandt spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:59:52 +0100 (CET): > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > TS>Thus Harti Brandt spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > TS>14:59:26 +0100 (CET): > TS> > TS>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: > TS>> > TS>> TS>No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as > TS>> TS>he's doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher > TS>> TS>prioritized stuff would be more efficient, and would help the > TS>> TS>project even more. > TS>> TS> > TS>> TS>Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, > TS>> TS>the Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > TS>> TS> > TS>> TS>(I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* > TS>> TS>of doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower > TS>> TS>priority' thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're > TS>> TS>the best sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > TS>> > TS>> Sorry, this is just crap. I'm a rather bad guitar player, at > TS>> least much worse than I'm a programmer. Yet I enjoy playing Joe > TS>> Pass at 1/4 the speed while I could import ZFS during that > TS>> time ... People just bring to FreeBSD what they like to do, not > TS>> what would be the best for you or others. If you want them to > TS>> change priorities according to YOUR needs, pay them money. > TS>> > TS>> harti > TS> > TS>Harti, you didn't get the point. You can also lead you dog into my > TS>yard, as long as you don't work on FreeBSD noone cares, really. The > TS>difference is *when* working on FreeBSD *what* do to -- xmas tree > TS>or ZFS. > TS> > TS>I thought this argumentation was pretty straightforward, but > TS>sometimes 2 +2 is really 5... > > I don't see the difference between working on what I like to work on > in FreeBSD and leading my dog (if I had one). It's just my choice > because it is my time. If I'd be paid for working on FreeBSD, it'd be > different. If I find the xmas tree controller more interesting than > ZFS why should I work on ZFS? Because the project would profit more of it than working on the /dev/uxmas. > You assumption is that it matters for > you on what I work, No, it'd be good for the whole community, what includes/included me, sure. > but it doesn't matter for me, so I could just > work on what is good for you. Huh? > Well, this entire thread is just utterly off-topic. No, it goes down to the very core. > harti Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:17:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CF516A47D; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:17:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23CFB13C4E9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD09C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:17:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 45D9C1D23; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:17:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:17:56 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Erik Trulsson Message-Id: <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:17:54 -0000 Thus Erik Trulsson spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:00:57 +0100: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the > > > > case, import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the > > > > tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device > > > > driver was imported instead? > > > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer > > > working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the > > > development of other "more important" parts of the tree. > > > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > > doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > > would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority > according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. I don't have priorities on what he's working on, but the project/community has. And as he's part of this community -- he chose being part of it -- he should do what is best for the community. Not what is 2nd or 3rd best. Period. > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > > doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. > > If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you > > wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and doesn't > care at all about the stuff that you happen to think should be high > priority. There's no *me* or *I*, there's a project/community. Should I spell it? :) > > > In almost all cases it does > > > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > > > would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > > > they already wanted to do that. > > > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, > > why code at all? > > > > > Kris > > > > Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:19:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57BB16A420; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:19:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F16D13C46A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:19:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4483C6F189C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:19:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C20B728766; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:19:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:19:30 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Astrodog Message-Id: <20080111161930.5b0c01fb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0801110706o21f2035cucd3a8048f47311f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <2fd864e0801110706o21f2035cucd3a8048f47311f6@mail.gmail.com> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:19:27 -0000 Thus Astrodog spake on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:06:43 +0900: > To bring this back onto the subject of development... can we take this > as a commitment from Kris Kennaway that FreeBSD will support USB > Christmas trees in the near future? It'd be nice if he could add USB > Missile Launcher support too... as clearly, FreeBSD system security > should be both physical, and in software. > > --- Harrison I'd recommend a firewire atomic bomb carpet coordinating device. That would solve all problems in a single second. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:22:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD04016A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C0C13C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <478789D0.5030104@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:22:56 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> In-Reply-To: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:59 -0000 Kai Wang wrote: > Any feedback would be appreciated. After more thorough test, I'd > like to bring it to the tree as an alternative ar. > > Testing I've done: > > 1. BSD ar's own test suite. (you can find it in the tarball) > 2. make universe. > > Kai Wang Hi Kai, This is exciting work! If you think it is ready, we could schedule a full build of the ports tree to see how well it holds up under wider testing. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:23:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D80716A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C9E13C455; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47878A03.4090702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:23:47 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Kargl References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> <20080111150309.GA97608@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080111150309.GA97608@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Michal Varga Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community (Stop this!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:50 -0000 Steve Kargl wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:17:23AM +0100, Michal Varga wrote: >> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 18:35 +0900, Astrodog wrote: >>> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. >>> >> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-mr-friedman mailing list >> or whatever else, but, PLEASE, stop this shit hitting our mailboxes. >> This has gone way too far. >> > > I've found the following procmailrc rules to be fairly > effective at reducing spam in my inbox. Unfortunately, > if the thread gets broken, I see the fallout. :( > > :0 H > * ^From:.*(friedman) > /dev/null > > :0 H > * ^To:.*(friedman) > /dev/null > Might be a bit restrictive, there are probably sane people out there called Friedman :) Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:24:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7462016A46D; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:24:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38DF13C469; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0759BC6F189C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:24:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E7C231D2B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:00 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-Id: <20080111162500.7513ffeb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <4787864E.1020208@gmail.com> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <4787864E.1020208@gmail.com> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:24:57 -0000 Thus "Aryeh M. Friedman" spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:07:58 -0500: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Erik Trulsson wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > >> Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > >> 14:12:25 +0100: > >> > >>> Timo Schoeler wrote: > >>> > >>>>> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not into > >>>>> GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant and > >>>>> well maintained. > >>>> It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more > >>>> important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If > >>>> this is the case, import the USB christmas tree device driver > >>>> and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely > >>>> no problem. > >>>> > >>>>> But even if it doesn't go into the tree, that's not a big > >>>>> deal. For example, for several years I maintained some > >>>>> patches that improved syscons (kern/15436). They didn't go > >>>>> into CVS, but they worked fine for me and a few others. > >>>> But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as > >>>> some others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into > >>>> the tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas > >>>> device driver was imported instead? > >>>> > >>>> This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > >>> You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer > >>> working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the > >>> development of other "more important" parts of the tree. > >> No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > >> doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > >> would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > > > But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority > > according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. > > And a different reward system would encourage a more socially > responible approach on both sides. Wrong. > >> Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the > >> Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > >> > >> (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > >> doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' > >> thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best > >> sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > > > Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and > > doesn't care at all about the stuff that you happen to think should > > be high priority. > > The requirement that the work must be "fun" is a fatal flaw with FOSS > once the projects actually start getting used by real people to do > real work... Partly correct. The problem is some people's attitude on this. Given that your capitalistic approach doesn't work (it never did, and it never will; the later people understand this, the more damage will have happened to this planet), and given your statement the line above: Why not use an evolutionary way of development? For FreeBSD this would mean to at least *try* to go 'back to the roots' (attitude!) and hunt for higher effectiveness. For the software world this would mean to fork (again) or to use an already existing fork, or to completely switch to another 'species' and let FreeBSD alone, maybe die, maybe decay, maybe not. Time will tell as time is your evolutionary friend. EOD > like I said else where do you really want the DoD run by > people who think war is "fun". They do think so, ask any human being outside the US... > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman Timo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:25:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E53916A46B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:25:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AB613C461; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1439FC6F189C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F0A251D16; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:36 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Kris Kennaway Message-Id: <20080111162536.1fb637d9.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <47878A03.4090702@FreeBSD.org> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> <20080111150309.GA97608@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <47878A03.4090702@FreeBSD.org> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Michal Varga , Steve Kargl Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community (Stop this!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:25:33 -0000 Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:23:47 +0100: > Steve Kargl wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:17:23AM +0100, Michal Varga wrote: > >> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 18:35 +0900, Astrodog wrote: > >>> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > >>> > >> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-mr-friedman mailing > >> list or whatever else, but, PLEASE, stop this shit hitting our > >> mailboxes. This has gone way too far. > >> > > > > I've found the following procmailrc rules to be fairly > > effective at reducing spam in my inbox. Unfortunately, > > if the thread gets broken, I see the fallout. :( > > > > :0 H > > * ^From:.*(friedman) > > /dev/null > > > > :0 H > > * ^To:.*(friedman) > > /dev/null > > > > Might be a bit restrictive, there are probably sane people out there > called Friedman :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Friedman > Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:40:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C5D16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D1313C47E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BFe3rX097946; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0BFe3iK097945; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:40:03 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20080111154003.GA97895@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <1200046643.36543.51.camel@xenon> <20080111150309.GA97608@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <47878A03.4090702@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47878A03.4090702@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Michal Varga Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community (Stop this!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:03 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 04:23:47PM +0100, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Steve Kargl wrote: > >On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:17:23AM +0100, Michal Varga wrote: > >>On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 18:35 +0900, Astrodog wrote: > >>>I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > >>> > >>I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-mr-friedman mailing list > >>or whatever else, but, PLEASE, stop this shit hitting our mailboxes. > >>This has gone way too far. > > > >I've found the following procmailrc rules to be fairly > >effective at reducing spam in my inbox. Unfortunately, > >if the thread gets broken, I see the fallout. :( > > > >:0 H > >* ^From:.*(friedman) > >/dev/null > > > >:0 H > >* ^To:.*(friedman) > >/dev/null > > Might be a bit restrictive, there are probably sane people out there > called Friedman :) > I had high priority items on my TODO list than figuring out the perfect procmail rule. So, to the sane Friedmans of the world, I apologies. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:40:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489B416A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gidgate.gid.co.uk (gid.co.uk [194.32.164.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7C213C478 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [192.168.234.199] ([192.168.234.199]) by gidgate.gid.co.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0BFIa2p039360; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:18:36 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Message-Id: From: Bob Bishop To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4787864E.1020208@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:18:37 +0000 References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <4787864E.1020208@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Cc: postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community et seq X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:58 -0000 Guys, This is supposed to be a technical list. The noise level is becoming unbearable. -- Bob Bishop +44 (0)118 940 1243 rb@gid.co.uk fax +44 (0)118 940 1295 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:55:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAA316A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD22D13C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:55:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from c83-253-25-183.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.25.183]:58080 helo=falcon.midgard.homeip.net) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDMEN-00025e-4v for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:55:39 +0100 Received: (qmail 36430 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 16:55:38 +0100 Received: from owl.midgard.homeip.net (10.1.5.7) by falcon.midgard.homeip.net with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2008 16:55:38 +0100 Received: (qmail 88421 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Jan 2008 16:55:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:55:38 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: Timo Schoeler Message-ID: <20080111155538.GA88354@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Timo Schoeler , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Originating-IP: 83.253.25.183 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1JDMEN-00025e-4v. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1JDMEN-00025e-4v 5e32aa34bf02222df6f9d849de702ca5 Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:55:41 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 04:17:56PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Erik Trulsson spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > 16:00:57 +0100: > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > > > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > > > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > > > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the > > > > > case, import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > > > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > > > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > > > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the > > > > > tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device > > > > > driver was imported instead? > > > > > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer > > > > working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the > > > > development of other "more important" parts of the tree. > > > > > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > > > doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > > > would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > > > But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority > > according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. > > I don't have priorities on what he's working on, but the > project/community has. The project/community is an abstract entity that does not have any opinions or priorities of its own. Indviduals within the project/community have priorities - often different priorities. > And as he's part of this community -- he chose > being part of it -- he should do what is best for the community. Not > what is 2nd or 3rd best. Period. Sure - as long as I get to decide what is best for the community. :-) Otherwise I will just note that I am not a great fan of communism. > > > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > > > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > > > > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > > > doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. > > > If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you > > > wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > > > Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and doesn't > > care at all about the stuff that you happen to think should be high > > priority. > > There's no *me* or *I*, there's a project/community. Should I spell > it? :) It wouldn't help to spell it out - it would still be just as wrong. > > > > > In almost all cases it does > > > > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > > > > would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > > > > they already wanted to do that. > > > > > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, > > > why code at all? > > > > > > > Kris > > > > > > Timo -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 16:06:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764DE16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:06:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0286913C45B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:06:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DA0C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:06:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id BD6841D42; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:06:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:06:07 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Erik Trulsson Message-Id: <20080111170607.aa6065e7.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111155538.GA88354@owl.midgard.homeip.net> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111155538.GA88354@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:06:05 -0000 Thus Erik Trulsson spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:55:38 +0100: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 04:17:56PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > Thus Erik Trulsson spake on Fri, 11 Jan > > 2008 16:00:57 +0100: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > > > > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > > > > > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > > > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > > > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more > > > > > > important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If > > > > > > this is the case, import the USB christmas tree device > > > > > > driver and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, > > > > > > absolutely no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > > > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > > > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > > > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > > > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as > > > > > > some others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get > > > > > > into the tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB > > > > > > christmas device driver was imported instead? > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > > > > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer > > > > > working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the > > > > > development of other "more important" parts of the tree. > > > > > > > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > > > > doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized > > > > stuff would be more efficient, and would help the project even > > > > more. > > > > > > But he is probably working on high priority stuff. High priority > > > according to *his* priorities that is, not your priorities. > > > > I don't have priorities on what he's working on, but the > > project/community has. > > The project/community is an abstract entity that does not have any > opinions or priorities of its own. This entity has goals, from which priorities (to achieve them in the best possible manner) and maybe opinions are derived from: http://www.freebsd.org/about.html http://www.freebsd.org/~blackend/flyer-logo.pdf http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/ etc. > Indviduals within the > project/community have priorities - often different priorities. That would be a nice demonstration of the first really working democracy on earth. Especially, when it'd follow the votes/wishes of the majority of each named priority -- which depends on the goals of this community and also gives feedback. > > And as he's part of this community -- he chose > > being part of it -- he should do what is best for the community. Not > > what is 2nd or 3rd best. Period. > > Sure - as long as I get to decide what is best for the community. :-) You have your vote. If you belong to the majority that voted similar, you're fine. If not, try to convince others or even better, create a better solution for the problem that was voted about (how to solve). > Otherwise I will just note that I am not a great fan of communism. You probably don't have the slightiest idea of what communism really is. You're just parroting some stupid propaganda... (There never was something like communism on this planet up to this day.) > > > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the > > > > Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > > > > > > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > > > > doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' > > > > thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best > > > > sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > > > > > Because he thinks the 'lower priority' thing is more fun, and > > > doesn't care at all about the stuff that you happen to think > > > should be high priority. > > > > There's no *me* or *I*, there's a project/community. Should I spell > > it? :) > > It wouldn't help to spell it out - it would still be just as wrong. Another god-like person. There must be a nest of you somewhere.... > > > > > In almost all cases it does > > > > > not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, > > > > > they would not be working on your "more important" code > > > > > anyway, unless they already wanted to do that. > > > > > > > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. > > > > So, why code at all? > > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > > > > > Timo > > -- > > Erik Trulsson > ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 17:04:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF1716A4C8 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.111]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D3BC13C467 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 90760 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2008 17:04:44 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=O7c4FdHBG+aTk1H941gIu9xHZl73YwXzvxKEE2SNUF38GMwXfhIwNqYWi0Yh2wU269A0RRpw1O2TjYoOtyotWRQ+F7vZE3gtuyTl+FSNELi8WjOdFctP/kKcIUN8aEPpjmqCH2pJL/ovvg1dfbOP0bL56fuqI2iLEWKsexSfFdY=; X-YMail-OSG: g387WIAVM1lDytKe8JCDAnZm0XGFDq3rxixYyp8Ir0JGchwDjtIHfUrgg_8p.kWaWrv354Mv2.usRH4zn7ouIrP_EUKBrC4jQ3I9PNTmmda09ZC76JE- Received: from [165.21.154.8] by web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:04:44 PST Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:04:44 -0800 (PST) From: Unga To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <298957.89824.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Subject: Truncated capability record buffer returned X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:04:45 -0000 Hi all The capability record buffer returned by the login_getpwclass() (defined in /usr/src/lib/libutil/login_cap.c) is truncated: lc->lc_cap shows only up to following: myclass1: :passwd_format=md5: :copyright=/etc/COPYRIGHT: :welcome=/etc/motd: :setenv=MAIL=/var/mail/$,BLOCKSIZE=K,FTP_PASSIVE_MODE=YES: :path=/sbin /bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /usr/games /usr/local/sbin /usr/loca Best Regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 16:13:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1721316A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from efinleywork@efinley.com) Received: from postmaster.etv.net (postmaster.etv.net [66.111.113.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE24813C448 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from efinleywork@efinley.com) Received: from efinley04.etv.net ([74.214.237.51] helo=science3.efinley.com) by postmaster.etv.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDM2X-000HVS-Jv for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:43:25 -0700 From: Elliot Finley To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:43:25 -0700 Organization: Emery Telcom Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:04:45 +0000 Subject: RC1 dump hangs - sometimes X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: efinleywork@efinley.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:48 -0000 I'm running RELENG_7_0 as of Jan 9th (on a Dell PE 2950). When I do: dump -3auf - /usr > /host/backup.etv.net/back/zabbix.etv.net._usr.2008-01-11.level-3 sometimes it finishes and sometimes it hangs part way through. I've been backing my 4.x, 5.x and 6.x systems up this way for years without ever having an issue. This box isn't in production yet so I can do whatever testing is needed. I can also provide access to a developer if needed. Looking at the bottom of the dmesg (below) I see: nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 Any help with this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Elliot zabbix root:~#>uname -a=20 =46reeBSD zabbix.etv.net 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Wed Jan 9 14:45:13 MST 2008 root@zabbix.etv.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64=20 =20 zabbix root:~#>dmesg=20 Copyright (c) 1992-2008 The FreeBSD Project.=20 Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994=20 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.=20 =46reeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation.=20 =46reeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Wed Jan 9 14:45:13 MST 2008=20 root@zabbix.etv.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC=20 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0=20 CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU 5110 @ 1.60GHz (1597.53-MHz K8-class CPU)=20 Origin =3D "GenuineIntel" Id =3D 0x6f6 Stepping =3D 6=20 =46eatures=3D0xbfebfbff =46eatures2=3D0x4e33d AMD Features=3D0x20100800=20 AMD Features2=3D0x1=20 Cores per package: 2=20 usable memory =3D 4281675776 (4083 MB)=20 avail memory =3D 4120317952 (3929 MB)=20 ACPI APIC Table: =20 =46reeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs=20 cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID: 0=20 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID: 1=20 cpu2 (AP): APIC ID: 6=20 cpu3 (AP): APIC ID: 7=20 ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8=20 ioapic1: Changing APIC ID to 9=20 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard=20 ioapic1 irqs 64-87 on motherboard=20 kbd1 at kbdmux0=20 ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, RF5413)=20 hptrr: HPT RocketRAID controller driver v1.1 (Jan 9 2008 14:45:01)=20 acpi0: on motherboard=20 acpi0: [ITHREAD]=20 acpi0: Power Button (fixed)=20 Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000=20 acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0=20 acpi_hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff on acpi0=20 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 900=20 cpu0: on acpi0=20 p4tcc0: on cpu0=20 cpu1: on acpi0=20 p4tcc1: on cpu1=20 cpu2: on acpi0=20 p4tcc2: on cpu2=20 cpu3: on acpi0=20 p4tcc3: on cpu3=20 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0=20 pci0: on pcib0=20 pcib1: at device 2.0 on pci0=20 pci6: on pcib1=20 pcib2: at device 0.0 on pci6=20 pci7: on pcib2=20 pcib3: at device 0.0 on pci7=20 pci8: on pcib3=20 pcib4: at device 0.0 on pci8=20 pci9: on pcib4=20 bce0: mem 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9=20 miibus0: on bce0=20 brgphy0: PHY 1 on miibus0=20 brgphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-FDX, auto=20 bce0: Ethernet address: 00:19:b9:b8:6a:df=20 bce0: [ITHREAD]=20 bce0: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W (0x02090105); Flags( MFW MSI )=20 pcib5: at device 1.0 on pci7=20 pci10: on pcib5=20 pcib6: at device 0.3 on pci6=20 pci11: on pcib6=20 pcib7: at device 3.0 on pci0=20 pci1: on pcib7=20 pcib8: at device 0.0 on pci1=20 pci2: on pcib8=20 mfi0: mem 0xd80f0000-0xd80fffff,0xfc4e0000-0xfc4fffff irq 78 at device 14.0 on pci2=20 mfi0: Megaraid SAS driver Ver 2.00=20 mfi0: 2978 (253222235s/0x0020/0) - Shutdown command received from host mfi0: 2979 (4278190080s/0x0020/0) - PCI 0x041028 0x0415 0x041028 0x041f03: Firmware initialization started (PCI ID 0015/1028/1f03/1028) mfi0: 2980 (4278190080s/0x0020/0) - Type 18: Firmware version 1.03.10-0216=20 mfi0: 2981 (4278190099s/0x0008/0) - Battery Present=20 mfi0: 2982 (4278190099s/0x0020/0) - Type 18: Package version 5.1.1-0040=20 mfi0: 2983 (4278190127s/0x0004/0) - PD 08(e1/s255) event: Enclosure (SES) discovered on PD 08(e1/s255)=20 mfi0: 2984 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 08(e1/s255) event: Inserted: PD 08(e1/s255)=20 mfi0: 2985 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 08(e1/s255) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3Dd, portMap=3D00, sasAddr=3D50019090c0d7da00,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2986 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 00(e1/s0) event: Inserted: PD 00(e1/s0)=20 mfi0: 2987 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 00(e1/s0) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D01, sasAddr=3D5000c50003928fd5,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2988 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 01(e1/s1) event: Inserted: PD 01(e1/s1)=20 mfi0: 2989 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 01(e1/s1) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D02, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929765,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2990 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 02(e1/s2) event: Inserted: PD 02(e1/s2)=20 mfi0: 2991 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 02(e1/s2) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D04, sasAddr=3D5000c50003922b81,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2992 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 03(e1/s3) event: Inserted: PD 03(e1/s3)=20 mfi0: 2993 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 03(e1/s3) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D08, sasAddr=3D5000c500039296d5,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2994 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 04(e1/s4) event: Inserted: PD 04(e1/s4)=20 mfi0: 2995 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 04(e1/s4) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D10, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929e95,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2996 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 05(e1/s5) event: Inserted: PD 05(e1/s5)=20 mfi0: 2997 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 05(e1/s5) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D20, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929d81,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2998 (4278190127s/0x0042/0) - Type 22: Dedicated Hot Spare created on PD 05(e1/s5) (ded,rev,ac=3D1)=20 mfi0: 2999 (253222599s/0x0020/0) - Adapter ticks 253222599 elapsed 48s: Time established as 01/09/08 19:36:39; (48 seconds since power on)=20 mfi0: [ITHREAD]=20 pcib9: at device 0.2 on pci1=20 pci3: on pcib9=20 pcib10: at device 4.0 on pci0=20 pci12: on pcib10=20 pcib11: at device 5.0 on pci0=20 pci13: on pcib11=20 pcib12: at device 6.0 on pci0=20 pci14: on pcib12=20 pcib13: at device 7.0 on pci0=20 pci15: on pcib13=20 pcib14: at device 28.0 on pci0=20 pci4: on pcib14=20 pcib15: at device 0.0 on pci4=20 pci5: on pcib15=20 bce1: mem 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5=20 miibus1: on bce1=20 brgphy1: PHY 1 on miibus1=20 brgphy1: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-FDX, auto=20 bce1: Ethernet address: 00:19:b9:b8:6a:dd=20 bce1: [ITHREAD]=20 bce1: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W (0x02090105); Flags( MFW MSI )=20 uhci0: port 0xdce0-0xdcff irq 21 at device 29.0 on pci0=20 uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci0: [ITHREAD]=20 usb0: on uhci0=20 usb0: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub0: on usb0 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 uhci1: port 0xdcc0-0xdcdf irq 20 at device 29.1 on pci0=20 uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci1: [ITHREAD]=20 usb1: on uhci1=20 usb1: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub1: on usb1 uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 uhci2: port 0xdca0-0xdcbf irq 21 at device 29.2 on pci0=20 uhci2: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci2: [ITHREAD]=20 usb2: on uhci2=20 usb2: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub2: on usb2 uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 ehci0: mem 0xfc600400-0xfc6007ff irq 21 at device 29.7 on pci0=20 ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 ehci0: [ITHREAD]=20 usb3: EHCI version 1.0=20 usb3: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2=20 usb3: on ehci0=20 usb3: USB revision 2.0=20 uhub3: on usb3 uhub3: 6 ports with 6 removable, self powered=20 uhub4: on uhub3=20 uhub4: multiple transaction translators=20 uhub4: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 ukbd0: on uhub4=20 kbd2 at ukbd0=20 ums0: on uhub4=20 ums0: X report 0x0002 not supported=20 device_attach: ums0 attach returned 6=20 umass0: on uhub4=20 umass1: on uhub4=20 uhub5: on uhub3=20 uhub5: multiple transaction translators=20 uhub5: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered=20 pcib16: at device 30.0 on pci0=20 pci16: on pcib16=20 vgapci0: port 0xec00-0xecff mem 0xd0000000-0xd7ffffff,0xfc1f0000-0xfc1fffff irq 19 at device 13.0 on pci16=20 isab0: at device 31.0 on pci0=20 isa0: on isab0=20 atapci0: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xfc00-0xfc0f at device 31.1 on pci0=20 ata0: on atapci0=20 ata0: [ITHREAD]=20 ata1: on atapci0=20 ata1: [ITHREAD]=20 fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0=20 fdc0: does not respond=20 device_attach: fdc0 attach returned 6=20 sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio0: port may not be enabled=20 sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio0: port may not be enabled=20 sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0=20 sio0: type 16550A=20 sio0: [FILTER]=20 sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio1: port may not be enabled=20 sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio1: port may not be enabled=20 sio1: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on acpi0=20 sio1: type 16550A=20 sio1: [FILTER]=20 fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0=20 fdc0: does not respond=20 device_attach: fdc0 attach returned 6=20 orm0: at iomem 0xc0000-0xc8fff,0xc9000-0xc9fff,0xca000-0xcb7ff,0xec000-0xeffff on isa0=20 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0=20 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0=20 kbd0 at atkbd0=20 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 atkbd0: [ITHREAD]=20 ppc0: cannot reserve I/O port range=20 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0=20 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=3D0x300>=20 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0=20 ukbd1: on uhub1=20 kbd3 at ukbd1=20 ums0: on uhub1=20 ums0: 5 buttons and Z dir.=20 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec=20 hptrr: no controller detected.=20 acd0: CDRW at ata0-master UDMA33=20 mfi0: 3000 (253222655s/0x0008/0) - Battery temperature is normal=20 mfi0: 3001 (253222655s/0x0008/0) - Current capacity of the battery is above threshold=20 mfid0: on mfi0=20 mfid0: 557568MB (1141899264 sectors) RAID volume 'AR0' is optimal=20 SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!=20 SMP: AP CPU #2 Launched!=20 SMP: AP CPU #3 Launched!=20 da0 at umass-sim1 bus 1 target 0 lun 0=20 da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI-0 device=20 da0: 40.000MB/s transfers=20 da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present=20 cd0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0=20 cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI-0 device=20 cd0: 40.000MB/s transfers=20 cd0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present=20 Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/mfid0s1a=20 bce0: link state changed to UP=20 logo_saver: the console does not support M_VGA_CG320=20 module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (logo_saver, 0xffffffffb49ee010, 0) error 19=20 pid 49887 (try), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)=20 mfi0: 3002 (253333350s/0x0008/0) - Battery started charging=20 mfi0: 3003 (253335170s/0x0008/0) - Battery charge complete=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 17:45:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA8816A46E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@efinley.com) Received: from postmaster.etv.net (postmaster.etv.net [66.111.113.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD55813C47E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@efinley.com) Received: from efinley04.etv.net ([74.214.237.51] helo=science3.efinley.com) by postmaster.etv.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDMlY-000DrA-JN for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:29:56 -0700 From: Elliot Finley To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:29:57 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: 7.0 RC1 dump hangs - sometimes X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: efinley@efinley.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:45:49 -0000 I'm running RELENG_7_0 as of Jan 9th (on a Dell PE 2950). When I do: dump -3auf - /usr > /host/backup.etv.net/back/zabbix.etv.net._usr.2008-01-11.level-3 sometimes it finishes and sometimes it hangs part way through. I've been backing my 4.x, 5.x and 6.x systems up this way for years without ever having an issue. This box isn't in production yet so I can do whatever testing is needed. I can also provide access to a developer if needed. Looking at the bottom of the dmesg (below) I see: nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 Any help with this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Elliot zabbix root:~#>uname -a=20 =46reeBSD zabbix.etv.net 7.0-RC1 FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Wed Jan 9 14:45:13 MST 2008 root@zabbix.etv.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64=20 =20 zabbix root:~#>dmesg=20 Copyright (c) 1992-2008 The FreeBSD Project.=20 Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994=20 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.=20 =46reeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation.=20 =46reeBSD 7.0-RC1 #0: Wed Jan 9 14:45:13 MST 2008=20 root@zabbix.etv.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC=20 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0=20 CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU 5110 @ 1.60GHz (1597.53-MHz K8-class CPU)=20 Origin =3D "GenuineIntel" Id =3D 0x6f6 Stepping =3D 6=20 =46eatures=3D0xbfebfbff =46eatures2=3D0x4e33d AMD Features=3D0x20100800=20 AMD Features2=3D0x1=20 Cores per package: 2=20 usable memory =3D 4281675776 (4083 MB)=20 avail memory =3D 4120317952 (3929 MB)=20 ACPI APIC Table: =20 =46reeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs=20 cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID: 0=20 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID: 1=20 cpu2 (AP): APIC ID: 6=20 cpu3 (AP): APIC ID: 7=20 ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8=20 ioapic1: Changing APIC ID to 9=20 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard=20 ioapic1 irqs 64-87 on motherboard=20 kbd1 at kbdmux0=20 ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, RF5413)=20 hptrr: HPT RocketRAID controller driver v1.1 (Jan 9 2008 14:45:01)=20 acpi0: on motherboard=20 acpi0: [ITHREAD]=20 acpi0: Power Button (fixed)=20 Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000=20 acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0=20 acpi_hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff on acpi0=20 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 900=20 cpu0: on acpi0=20 p4tcc0: on cpu0=20 cpu1: on acpi0=20 p4tcc1: on cpu1=20 cpu2: on acpi0=20 p4tcc2: on cpu2=20 cpu3: on acpi0=20 p4tcc3: on cpu3=20 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0=20 pci0: on pcib0=20 pcib1: at device 2.0 on pci0=20 pci6: on pcib1=20 pcib2: at device 0.0 on pci6=20 pci7: on pcib2=20 pcib3: at device 0.0 on pci7=20 pci8: on pcib3=20 pcib4: at device 0.0 on pci8=20 pci9: on pcib4=20 bce0: mem 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9=20 miibus0: on bce0=20 brgphy0: PHY 1 on miibus0=20 brgphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-FDX, auto=20 bce0: Ethernet address: 00:19:b9:b8:6a:df=20 bce0: [ITHREAD]=20 bce0: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W (0x02090105); Flags( MFW MSI )=20 pcib5: at device 1.0 on pci7=20 pci10: on pcib5=20 pcib6: at device 0.3 on pci6=20 pci11: on pcib6=20 pcib7: at device 3.0 on pci0=20 pci1: on pcib7=20 pcib8: at device 0.0 on pci1=20 pci2: on pcib8=20 mfi0: mem 0xd80f0000-0xd80fffff,0xfc4e0000-0xfc4fffff irq 78 at device 14.0 on pci2=20 mfi0: Megaraid SAS driver Ver 2.00=20 mfi0: 2978 (253222235s/0x0020/0) - Shutdown command received from host mfi0: 2979 (4278190080s/0x0020/0) - PCI 0x041028 0x0415 0x041028 0x041f03: Firmware initialization started (PCI ID 0015/1028/1f03/1028) mfi0: 2980 (4278190080s/0x0020/0) - Type 18: Firmware version 1.03.10-0216=20 mfi0: 2981 (4278190099s/0x0008/0) - Battery Present=20 mfi0: 2982 (4278190099s/0x0020/0) - Type 18: Package version 5.1.1-0040=20 mfi0: 2983 (4278190127s/0x0004/0) - PD 08(e1/s255) event: Enclosure (SES) discovered on PD 08(e1/s255)=20 mfi0: 2984 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 08(e1/s255) event: Inserted: PD 08(e1/s255)=20 mfi0: 2985 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 08(e1/s255) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3Dd, portMap=3D00, sasAddr=3D50019090c0d7da00,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2986 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 00(e1/s0) event: Inserted: PD 00(e1/s0)=20 mfi0: 2987 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 00(e1/s0) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D01, sasAddr=3D5000c50003928fd5,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2988 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 01(e1/s1) event: Inserted: PD 01(e1/s1)=20 mfi0: 2989 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 01(e1/s1) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D02, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929765,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2990 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 02(e1/s2) event: Inserted: PD 02(e1/s2)=20 mfi0: 2991 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 02(e1/s2) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D04, sasAddr=3D5000c50003922b81,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2992 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 03(e1/s3) event: Inserted: PD 03(e1/s3)=20 mfi0: 2993 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 03(e1/s3) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D08, sasAddr=3D5000c500039296d5,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2994 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 04(e1/s4) event: Inserted: PD 04(e1/s4)=20 mfi0: 2995 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 04(e1/s4) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D10, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929e95,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2996 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - PD 05(e1/s5) event: Inserted: PD 05(e1/s5)=20 mfi0: 2997 (4278190127s/0x0002/0) - Type 29: Inserted: PD 05(e1/s5) Info: enclPd=3D08, scsiType=3D0, portMap=3D20, sasAddr=3D5000c50003929d81,0000000000000000=20 mfi0: 2998 (4278190127s/0x0042/0) - Type 22: Dedicated Hot Spare created on PD 05(e1/s5) (ded,rev,ac=3D1)=20 mfi0: 2999 (253222599s/0x0020/0) - Adapter ticks 253222599 elapsed 48s: Time established as 01/09/08 19:36:39; (48 seconds since power on)=20 mfi0: [ITHREAD]=20 pcib9: at device 0.2 on pci1=20 pci3: on pcib9=20 pcib10: at device 4.0 on pci0=20 pci12: on pcib10=20 pcib11: at device 5.0 on pci0=20 pci13: on pcib11=20 pcib12: at device 6.0 on pci0=20 pci14: on pcib12=20 pcib13: at device 7.0 on pci0=20 pci15: on pcib13=20 pcib14: at device 28.0 on pci0=20 pci4: on pcib14=20 pcib15: at device 0.0 on pci4=20 pci5: on pcib15=20 bce1: mem 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5=20 miibus1: on bce1=20 brgphy1: PHY 1 on miibus1=20 brgphy1: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-FDX, auto=20 bce1: Ethernet address: 00:19:b9:b8:6a:dd=20 bce1: [ITHREAD]=20 bce1: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W (0x02090105); Flags( MFW MSI )=20 uhci0: port 0xdce0-0xdcff irq 21 at device 29.0 on pci0=20 uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci0: [ITHREAD]=20 usb0: on uhci0=20 usb0: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub0: on usb0 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 uhci1: port 0xdcc0-0xdcdf irq 20 at device 29.1 on pci0=20 uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci1: [ITHREAD]=20 usb1: on uhci1=20 usb1: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub1: on usb1 uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 uhci2: port 0xdca0-0xdcbf irq 21 at device 29.2 on pci0=20 uhci2: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 uhci2: [ITHREAD]=20 usb2: on uhci2=20 usb2: USB revision 1.0=20 uhub2: on usb2 uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 ehci0: mem 0xfc600400-0xfc6007ff irq 21 at device 29.7 on pci0=20 ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 ehci0: [ITHREAD]=20 usb3: EHCI version 1.0=20 usb3: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2=20 usb3: on ehci0=20 usb3: USB revision 2.0=20 uhub3: on usb3 uhub3: 6 ports with 6 removable, self powered=20 uhub4: on uhub3=20 uhub4: multiple transaction translators=20 uhub4: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered=20 ukbd0: on uhub4=20 kbd2 at ukbd0=20 ums0: on uhub4=20 ums0: X report 0x0002 not supported=20 device_attach: ums0 attach returned 6=20 umass0: on uhub4=20 umass1: on uhub4=20 uhub5: on uhub3=20 uhub5: multiple transaction translators=20 uhub5: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered=20 pcib16: at device 30.0 on pci0=20 pci16: on pcib16=20 vgapci0: port 0xec00-0xecff mem 0xd0000000-0xd7ffffff,0xfc1f0000-0xfc1fffff irq 19 at device 13.0 on pci16=20 isab0: at device 31.0 on pci0=20 isa0: on isab0=20 atapci0: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xfc00-0xfc0f at device 31.1 on pci0=20 ata0: on atapci0=20 ata0: [ITHREAD]=20 ata1: on atapci0=20 ata1: [ITHREAD]=20 fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0=20 fdc0: does not respond=20 device_attach: fdc0 attach returned 6=20 sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio0: port may not be enabled=20 sio0: configured irq 4 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio0: port may not be enabled=20 sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0=20 sio0: type 16550A=20 sio0: [FILTER]=20 sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio1: port may not be enabled=20 sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0=20 sio1: port may not be enabled=20 sio1: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on acpi0=20 sio1: type 16550A=20 sio1: [FILTER]=20 fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0=20 fdc0: does not respond=20 device_attach: fdc0 attach returned 6=20 orm0: at iomem 0xc0000-0xc8fff,0xc9000-0xc9fff,0xca000-0xcb7ff,0xec000-0xeffff on isa0=20 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0=20 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0=20 kbd0 at atkbd0=20 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED]=20 atkbd0: [ITHREAD]=20 ppc0: cannot reserve I/O port range=20 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0=20 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=3D0x300>=20 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0=20 ukbd1: on uhub1=20 kbd3 at ukbd1=20 ums0: on uhub1=20 ums0: 5 buttons and Z dir.=20 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec=20 hptrr: no controller detected.=20 acd0: CDRW at ata0-master UDMA33=20 mfi0: 3000 (253222655s/0x0008/0) - Battery temperature is normal=20 mfi0: 3001 (253222655s/0x0008/0) - Current capacity of the battery is above threshold=20 mfid0: on mfi0=20 mfid0: 557568MB (1141899264 sectors) RAID volume 'AR0' is optimal=20 SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!=20 SMP: AP CPU #2 Launched!=20 SMP: AP CPU #3 Launched!=20 da0 at umass-sim1 bus 1 target 0 lun 0=20 da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI-0 device=20 da0: 40.000MB/s transfers=20 da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present=20 cd0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0=20 cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI-0 device=20 cd0: 40.000MB/s transfers=20 cd0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present=20 Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/mfid0s1a=20 bce0: link state changed to UP=20 logo_saver: the console does not support M_VGA_CG320=20 module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (logo_saver, 0xffffffffb49ee010, 0) error 19=20 pid 49887 (try), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)=20 mfi0: 3002 (253333350s/0x0008/0) - Battery started charging=20 mfi0: 3003 (253335170s/0x0008/0) - Battery charge complete=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 nfs send error 35 for server backup:/back=20 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 17:36:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B763C16A46B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:36:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C99213C46E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:36:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 27F1B8C132; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:36:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:36:38 -0600 To: Timo Schoeler Message-ID: <20080111173638.GA32066@soaustin.net> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111150057.GA88016@owl.midgard.homeip.net> <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111161756.0ad5956f.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:57:35 +0000 Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:36:38 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 04:17:56PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > I don't have priorities on what he's working on, but the > project/community has. And as he's part of this community -- he chose > being part of it -- he should do what is best for the community. Not > what is 2nd or 3rd best. Period. About once a year we see someone advocate this opinion. This is not the way FreeBSD works. No obligation is created by any commit. I am always pleased when people put their own priorities aside to work on things that are clearly bothering other users or developers, but to expect this to be the default is to completely misunderstand the way volunteering works. Sometimes I work on the stuff that I believe is most beneficial to the community. Sometimes I do this knowing I'll either get no support for it, or resitance from other people who think my priorities are wrong. I try not to let either get to me, and just concentrate on the work. And sometimes, especially if I get frustrated with that, I just hack for the hell of it, or go watch TV, or play online poker, or do crossword puzzles. They all pay the same :-) To summarize, FreeBSD isn't a democracy where the users get to vote on what the committers work on. It's a cooperative anarchy where a few people stick titles next to their names, which gives them the opportunity to advocate their own views on what the priorities ought to be ("portmgr would look people to look at foo"; "core would like people to think about bar"). Whether anyone agrees with any of us, or decides to take action based on that, is entirely up to them -- there is no "magic button" we can push to make them do so. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 18:13:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B30C16A41B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:13:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=49a8a32bfc6e967a4ea9652369547b7d9dc9597c=577=es.net=oberman@es.net) Received: from postal1.es.net (postal1.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:14:3::6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D4A13C45D; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=49a8a32bfc6e967a4ea9652369547b7d9dc9597c=577=es.net=oberman@es.net) Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [198.128.4.29]) by postal1.es.net (Postal Node 1) with ESMTP (SSL) id RTY46446; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:46 -0800 Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [127.0.0.1]) by ptavv.es.net (Tachyon Server) with ESMTP id 5E7244500E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:44 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Mozolevsky" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:07 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_1200075224_3679P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:44 -0800 From: "Kevin Oberman" Message-Id: <20080111181344.5E7244500E@ptavv.es.net> X-Sender-IP: 198.128.4.29 X-Sender-Domain: es.net X-Recipent: ; ; ; ; ; ; X-Sender: X-To_Name: Igor Mozolevsky X-To_Domain: hybrid-lab.co.uk X-To: "Igor Mozolevsky" X-To_Email: igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk X-To_Alias: igor Cc: bruno@freebsd.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , njl@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Stefan Lambrev Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:13:49 -0000 --==_Exmh_1200075224_3679P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:07 +0000 > From: "Igor Mozolevsky" > Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org > > On 11/01/2008, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > > The whole point of powerd is to automatically adapt to the load. If > > your laptop "lags too much" powerd should detect that and increase the > > CPU frequency. However, poor interactive response can result when CPU > > frequency fluctuates too quickly; perhaps your problem will go away with > > Andrew's patch, which is intended to dampen such fluctuations? > > I was also thinking that the power increase probably shouldn't be > linear, maybe there should be a choice of algs: 2-step, 50%-100%, etc. > Normally you don't mind power dropping slowly, but for most things you > don't want to wait N-seconds for the clock to be stepped up to its > full throttle... The part of powerd.c that controls this is very easy to understand and modify. I write almost no C these days and I had no problems changing the adaptive algorithm to try other things. Try your idea and see how it works. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 --==_Exmh_1200075224_3679P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 06/03/2002 iD8DBQFHh7HYkn3rs5h7N1ERAuiPAKCc5Mj2kcZQaG2TTK5+5k6Op7FNcACgthiX ei+uPPPkt9b4raTPrUyEQVQ= =JRIi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_1200075224_3679P-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 18:18:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F87116A41B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gpalmer@freebsd.org) Received: from noop.in-addr.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:5c0:8fff:fffe::214d]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5513313C448; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gpalmer@freebsd.org) Received: from gjp by noop.in-addr.com with local (Exim 4.54 (FreeBSD)) id 1JDOSY-000PJp-1b; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:18:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:18:25 -0500 From: Gary Palmer To: Timo Schoeler Message-ID: <20080111181825.GB86111@in-addr.com> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:18:27 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, > > > import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? > > > Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was > > > imported instead? > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on > > e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other > > "more important" parts of the tree. > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing > underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be > more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing > both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you > are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't > join the marathon...!) The assumption you are making is that someone working in the kernel is capable of working anywhere in the kernel (or equivalent code base). >From personal experience thats not true. The kernel is a very complex piece of code and I doubt any one person understands all of it. People who are working on a USB driver for Christmas tree lights probably are not capable (without a huge learning curve) of fixing race conditions in the virtual memory subsystem. I suspect that if you look carefully, most of the time the people who are capable of addressing the issues that are raised are doing so in whatever time they have available. The people who are not get on with whatever they were doing (such as writing a high definition audio driver). Gary From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 18:20:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B1016A41A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:20:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBAE813C4F6; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:20:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94E0C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:20:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E5FDC1DA9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:20:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:20:46 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Gary Palmer Message-Id: <20080111192046.6b295140.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111181825.GB86111@in-addr.com> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080111181825.GB86111@in-addr.com> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:20:43 -0000 Thus Gary Palmer spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:18:25 -0500: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:51:28PM +0100, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > > > >> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > > >> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > > >> and well maintained. > > > > > > > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > > > > problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the > > > > case, import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > > > > dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > > > > > > > >> But even if it doesn't go into the > > > >> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > > >> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > > >> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > > >> fine for me and a few others. > > > > > > > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > > > > others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the > > > > tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device > > > > driver was imported instead? > > > > > > > > This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > > > > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer > > > working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the > > > development of other "more important" parts of the tree. > > > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > > doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > > would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > > doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. > > If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you > > wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > The assumption you are making is that someone working in the kernel > is capable of working anywhere in the kernel (or equivalent code > base). > >From personal experience thats not true. The kernel is a very > >complex > piece of code and I doubt any one person understands all of it. > People who are working on a USB driver for Christmas tree lights > probably are not capable (without a huge learning curve) of fixing > race conditions in the virtual memory subsystem. I suspect that if > you look carefully, most of the time the people who are capable of > addressing the issues that are raised are doing so in whatever time > they have available. The people who are not get on with whatever > they were doing (such as writing a high definition audio driver). > > Gary quoting myself: `` Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree.'' I'm aware of what you wrote, however this doesn't create a problem. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 18:35:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E68816A41B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:35:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4D113C447; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:35:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8A575DAA; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:35:34 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:35:41 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart9162351.RhgJZhdn8N"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Mark Linimon Subject: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:35:37 -0000 --nextPart9162351.RhgJZhdn8N Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =46rom the hideous flamewar-about-everything thread: > We clearly have a disconnect on PRs. More come in than we have any way > to handle. This is clearly most distressing when the PRs contain > patches and/or test cases. Again, I'm open to ideas on how to set up > something where more people can participate. Eric Anderson posted a suggestion that I read and won't comment on other th= an=20 to say that from the perspective of the non-committer it sounds like a good= =20 idea. I have another suggestion. The fundamental problem, I think everyone agrees, is that there is simply n= ot=20 enough commit bit developer time available to attend to all the PR:s. This = is=20 understandable. But understandable or not, the problem becomes particularly frustrating whe= n=20 it affects PR:s that contain patches. Such PR:s constitute direct=20 contributions to the project. In cases where such patches are correct/good= =20 enough, the non-application of those patches have what I believe to be=20 significant effects. The one perhaps lesser effect is that other people are bitten by the same b= ug=20 (which translates into loss of time on potential future contribotors) even= =20 though a fix is available. The second, possibly worse effect, is that the original submitter, I believ= e,=20 is less inclined to spend more time in the future contributing, if said=20 submitter feels the work is wasted because no one commits or even comments = on=20 the PR. In the case of PR:s with patches, why do they not get enough attention?=20 Obviously there is no technical reason why the application of the patch=20 itself should be a problem (that could be completely automated even). The=20 problem, presumably, will be that the time it takes to process the PR is mu= ch=20 more than the mechanical act of applying a patch because (and this list is= =20 probably not exhaustive): * The patch must be looked at and understood prior to application or even=20 testing. Does it comply with style guidelines? Does it break something else= =20 as a side-effect? What are other implications? And so on. * The committer may not have access to the hardware, or may not have a=20 software setup that allows for testing. This means doing such testing=20 suddenly requires a lot more effort. * The committer may not be familiar with the code and, even though the patc= h=20 looks good generally, it is felt that someone familiar with that part of th= e=20 system needs to have a look. This means the committer can either spend=20 additional time on understanding the surrounding codebase, or leave it for= =20 the subset of committers that have that understanding already. One observation is that there is no realistic way for the community of=20 non-committers to help effectively the committer in the sense of lessening= =20 the amount of work required to process the PR. What I suggest is a system where a group of non-committers systematically=20 pre-process PR:s, to provide feedback and additional quality assurance to t= he=20 committer that is to process the PR. This group of people could either be a self-proclaimed group of volunteers,= or=20 perhaps a group of people satisfying the criteria of "guy we kinda trust to= =20 do testing and provide a useful indication of sanity and correctness, but n= ot=20 with a commit bit". Given a fairly simple PR with a fairly simple patch, would not the work of = the=20 committer be greatly lessened if there was a track record of the=20 above "pre-processors" shows that people have performed building and=20 testing of the patched version on architectures/environments, ,= =20 and that they generally like the patch (or that they don't)? One possible answer to this that I have gotten in the past with another=20 project, is that noone is stopping me from just grabbing a bunch of PR:s an= d=20 posting follow-ups saying I've tested something, or otherwise giving=20 feedback. The problem is that there is no real indication that this will cause anythi= ng=20 to happen other than generating more E-Mail traffic. What I suggest may make the difference is to have a *system* for this.=20 Preferably with software to support it. =46or example, patches with a high confidence of correctness due to many pe= ople=20 affirming that they have tested it could be automatically prioritized for=20 committers to deal with, and there will be a clear and systematic record of= =20 what testing was done, and by who. And the individual contributor (for=20 testing) can really feel that the time spent was worthwhile, because the=20 feedback was taken by the system and used for actual effect. When I talk about priority above, I do not mean to imply that any committer= =20 should work on things they do not want to work on. But I have to assume tha= t=20 a lot of patches get committed because a committer decided to go and pick a= =20 few PR:s to process, rather than the committer necessarily has a burning=20 interest in that particular patch. As such, if said committer could spend those minutes closing five times= as=20 many PR:s because the up-front confidence in the correctness of the patch i= s=20 so much higher, perhaps it would help the system to "scale", moving some of= =20 the burden off the committers. Perhaps one can either go so far as to have "full committers" give their=20 blessing for a particular patch, possibly based on feedback such as above,= =20 but leave the act of actually commiting the patch and doing the actual smok= e=20 testing (that it builds etc) to someone who does have a commit bit and is=20 trusted with it, but is not allowed to make any commits that are not direct= ly=20 blessed by a "full" committer. There is some precedent for similar systems. Squeak had the concept=20 of "harvesters". They seem to have changed things a bit nowadays, but=20 seemingly use a similar approach still (I am no longer up to date): http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3152 (see the comment/review/vote period) =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart9162351.RhgJZhdn8N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHh7cGDNor2+l1i30RAkZ6AJsEsFA8YIPJhofQ1NdsgdE7yuLsHACg4GKQ QFqwG58365226dPAFnTkCQc= =O2cn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart9162351.RhgJZhdn8N-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:06:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB6016A41A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:06:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Received: from ebb.errno.com (ebb.errno.com [69.12.149.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFF513C467; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:06:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Received: from trouble.errno.com (trouble.errno.com [10.0.0.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by ebb.errno.com (8.13.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0BISGDE011437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:28:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Message-ID: <4787B540.2040003@errno.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:28:16 -0800 From: Sam Leffler User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sepherosa Ziehau References: <86ir2hznnd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnpu0wv.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnovy4k.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86odc3dlgi.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86lk76c6t5.fsf@ds4.des.no> <864pds8idc.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC--Metrics: ebb.errno.com; whitelist Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , kevlo@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: if_ral regression [was seq#'s on ap frames] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:06:11 -0000 Sepherosa Ziehau wrote: > On Jan 5, 2008 10:19 PM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > >> "Sepherosa Ziehau" writes: >> >>> This actually brings up two things: >>> 1) I think we should ignore seq in multicast frames; this is permitted in >>> 802.11 standard. In dfly I did that, since one of our users >>> encountered a broken commercial AP which is not 802.11e but uses >>> different seq for data and beacon. >>> 2) TX sequence. I think standards only mention QSTA/nQSTA, but not >>> AP. Currently our AP uses per node TX seq, which means beacon's seq >>> is difficult to choose, at least for 2560 based ral(4), whose beacons' >>> seq need to be set by software. I saw Linksys AP uses one seq for all >>> of the frames it sends. Sam, what's you opinion on this? >>> >>> I think if STA counts ral(4)'s beacon seq, as what we do currently, >>> beacon missing will quickly happen since beacons will be discarded >>> after first several data frames. >>> >> OK, I *think* I understood most of that. Does this suggest a solution >> to you? I will try to get the wlandebug output tonight. >> > > I don't know whether you are still interested to track down the wired > problem you had experienced. > If you have time please try following patches: > > revert the old patch at your AP side and try this one > http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/rt2560_test.diff1 > > apply following patch at you STA side > http://people.freebsd.org/~sephe/ieee80211_input.c.diff > > Best Regards, > sephe > > [just back from holiday and only now caught your question about seq#'s] The issue of seq# generation has mostly been ignored because many/most devices generate them directly. I'm aware of issues w/ management frames not getting correct seq#'s for ap mode (e.g. probe response) and have some uncommitted changes. Beacon frames should track the seq# in the bss node though there might be some trickiness w/ the bss node being rebuilt too much (we may need to propagate the current seq# as we do some other state). On the rx side I'm not sure about ignoring seq# of mcast frames; it would definitely be a WAR for broken ap implementations. FWIW I took ownership of a ral bug where AP mode tx just stopped for no apparent reason (I think it was probe response frames but can't recall). This sounds like the same thing; can you check kern/117655? Sam From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:17:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A8C16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0810F13C44B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BJHPCW018955; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BJHP8u018954; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:25 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net In-Reply-To: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:26 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:29 -0000 Note: Reply-To set to chat@. Timo Schoeler wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > I think the real answer is: You cannot prevent anyone > > from writing a piece of software, no matter how useless > > or ridiculous it might be for the majority of users. > > I don't want to do this, either. Sorry, my argumentation on this was > not clear enough... > > > If > > there's someone who wants to write a driver for a USB > > christmas tree or for a bluetooth canned laughter device > > -- he will do it, and you can't keep him from doing it. > > So above, (s)he shall be happy doing so. > > > It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > and well maintained. > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem > (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. No. You cannot force a _volunteer_ to work on anything other than the issue he wants to work on. That's why he is a volunteer. FreeBSD is mostly a project of volunteers, only a few of the developers are paid for what they're doing. > > But even if it doesn't go into the > > tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > fine for me and a few others. > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people". :-) > If so, why didn't it get into the tree? There are various reasons why patches don't hit the tree. Some have already been mentioned by Peter Schuller and others. In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Later I forgot about the whole thing because I had more important things to do. If I insisted at that time and submitted follow-ups to the PR with updated patches, it might really have been comitted. > Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device > driver was imported instead? Priority depends on the point of view. Different people have different priorities. There are people for whom ZFS is top priority. Other people's top priority might be improvements on zero-copy sockets or TCP scaling. And yet others might have hot-plug-PCI support on top of their list because it's crucial for their jobs. There might as well be people whose top-priority is the USB xmas tree driver. Why not? > OpenBSD gets this straight very well (and no, I'm no longer a fanboy of > OpenBSD, if interested why, send me a PM). They put emphasis on > security, and they get this job done very very well. OpenBSD doesn't force volunteers to work on things that they don't want to work on. It wouldn't work. > > You can't tell people how to waste their resources in their > > free time. They waste it on whatever they want, no matter > > what the FreeBSD project tells them, no matter if there's > > a strong leader or not. > > They can waste their own time, but they shouldn't waste others. How is writing a USB xmas tree driver wasting others' time? Well, if you submit it, another developer (maybe a comitter) will need some time to look at it, but again, that's voluntary. No volunteer is forced to look at it. In fact it might _save_ others' time who would otherwise have to start writing such a driver themselves. > > > The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from > > > FreeBSD (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company > > > could no longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, > > > because they had way too many problems with it), then a chain > > > reaction is started. > > > > Actually I think that bsdforen.de issue is overrated > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > community, but that's a different story). > > Pride goes before a fall. Exactly. > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) Basically there are two problems here, the first being sub- optimal bug reports (e.g. missing details, problems with communication), and the second being a lack of committer manpower. Some pople have suggested ways to solve or at least alleviate the latter. Best regards Oliver PS: Reply-To set to chat@. -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "If you aim the gun at your foot and pull the trigger, it's UNIX's job to ensure reliable delivery of the bullet to where you aimed the gun (in this case, Mr. Foot)." -- Terry Lambert, FreeBSD-hackers mailing list. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:19:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96F516A421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CED13C467 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so713395uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:19:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=tMRKcbXFYchsL0cr5JwtXIq5Y7Ibxu715ekAue5iVxM=; b=ZeZoYmifOVuMLiNsajjzyDCdRbUzRJZe/vNeUgHNQTq9zaN+ANfDX4W+k/nKUIYXT+Mm+lSwa7wl75qMeibp5t2OZ545gcQzgx1WqvlcG9eJEwU0SqEJ3Ou21tKZgEGn8RrZdCN673GJn28v+UkdqqIod4AtEBkW8NhYurp7+dQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=xTNTHYRFBw7k1xrCsGjMxKhARNgNzSu4h1FH/p2+ciWjZI9L7W9qqOUamARxTNDTP6GR8+BNf1ftfJNOgGM0pZYlVRvUqmBhijEetC8ATNOggoafVxkJffh2/9l4riL7keLKHk28vQbGj9/27yGmL7VLfnZrghT+pn6WtsIoLj4= Received: by 10.66.217.20 with SMTP id p20mr327278ugg.51.1200079196737; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:19:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:56 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Kevin Oberman" In-Reply-To: <20080111181344.5E7244500E@ptavv.es.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080111181344.5E7244500E@ptavv.es.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 43848a3bb3303d14 Cc: bruno@freebsd.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , njl@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Stefan Lambrev Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:58 -0000 On 11/01/2008, Kevin Oberman wrote: > > I was also thinking that the power increase probably shouldn't be > > linear, maybe there should be a choice of algs: 2-step, 50%-100%, etc. > > Normally you don't mind power dropping slowly, but for most things you > > don't want to wait N-seconds for the clock to be stepped up to its > > full throttle... > > Try your idea and see how it works. It's always the question of time more than anything, I'll try something next week if I have the time, but no promises yet. :-) Igor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:40:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC58316A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:40:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767FF13C4D9 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:40:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BJebi4032025 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:40:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0BJebi1032023 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:40:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:40:36 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:40:36 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:23:36PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of > bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of > the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored > by Google SoC 2007 programme. > > You can find the tarball at: > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement for the current ar/? -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 20:31:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833EF16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1518B13C457 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDQXJ-0005Hh-81 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:29 +0000 Received: from mulderlab.f5.com ([205.229.151.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:29 +0000 Received: from atkin901 by mulderlab.f5.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:29 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Mark Atkinson Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:31:19 -0800 Lines: 51 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mulderlab.f5.com User-Agent: KNode/0.10.5 Sender: news Subject: strange message from ciss: ciss0: SENDING NOP MESSAGE FAILED X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:31:36 -0000 I get the following on the console every few seconds after upgrading a hp dl380g3 today to -current. My old kernel was from Aug 9th where I didn't see this behavior. I'm not sure if that kernel contained 1.16 of cissreg.h. ciss0: command status 0x2 (data underrun) scsi status 0x0 ciss0: SENDING NOP MESSAGE FAILED dmesg for this device: ciss0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xf2dc0000-0xf2dfffff,0xf2cf0000-0xf2cf3fff irq 30 at device 3.0 on pci1 ciss0: Reserved 0x40000 bytes for rid 0x10 type 3 at 0xf2dc0000 ioapic1: routing intpin 14 (PCI IRQ 30) to vector 52 ciss0: [MPSAFE] ciss0: [ITHREAD] ciss0: using 256 of 1024 available commands ciss0: firmware 2.36 ciss0: 2 SCSI channels ciss0: signature 'CISS' ciss0: valence 1 ciss0: supported I/O methods 0xe ciss0: active I/O method 0x3 ciss0: 4G page base 0x00000000 ciss0: interrupt coalesce delay 1000us ciss0: interrupt coalesce count 16 ciss0: max outstanding commands 1024 ciss0: bus types 0x2 ciss0: server name '' ciss0: heartbeat 0x30000032 ciss0: 2 physical devices ciss0: 1 logical drive ciss0: logical drive (b0t0): RAID 0, 34304MB online uname snippet: FreeBSD dl380-1 8.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #3: Fri Jan 11 19:09:32 PST 2008 root@dl380-1.f5test.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DL380 i386 Mark Atkinsondl380-1# grep \$FreeBSD * ciss.c: * $FreeBSD: src/sys/dev/ciss/ciss.c,v 1.85 2007/11/05 13:54:23 iwasaki Exp $ cissio.h: * $FreeBSD: src/sys/dev/ciss/cissio.h,v 1.5 2005/05/18 05:31:34 ps Exp $ cissreg.h: * $FreeBSD: src/sys/dev/ciss/cissreg.h,v 1.16 2005/08/09 20:53:51 ps Exp $ cissvar.h: * $FreeBSD: src/sys/dev/ciss/cissvar.h,v 1.11 2007/05/01 05:13:15 scottl Exp $ -- atkin901@yahoo.com (!wired)?(coffee++):(wired); From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 20:41:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79B116A420; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:41:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A15013C455; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:41:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 1DD9E8C12A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:41:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:41:48 -0600 To: Peter Schuller Message-ID: <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:45:52 +0000 Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:41:49 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 07:35:41PM +0100, Peter Schuller wrote: > But understandable or not, the problem becomes particularly frustrating when > it affects PR:s that contain patches. Such PR:s constitute direct > contributions to the project. In cases where such patches are correct/good > enough, the non-application of those patches have what I believe to be > significant effects. I think you make some excellent points -- especially with how understandable it is for someone who's submitted a patch which got ignored, to not do the work to submit the next one. With respect to patches, the two things that I've tried -- and they have been insufficient -- are the following: - weekly email of "PRs containing patches" - weekly email of "PRs recommended by the bugbuster team" We can make the following observations: - the "push" paradigm doesn't work particularly well. Partly this is due to fatigue if you try to read through all this stuff (see below). - the "recommended" list has been slightly effective, but it's going to take some time for it to take off. For one thing, it has been underpublicized; for another, we don't have the culture of committers getting "warm fuzzies" from committing PRs. (Since no one working on that kind of stuff gets paid AFAIK, that's the only positive feedback they're going to get.) Last week someone made the observation that if these things were instead updated daily and posted to a web page, that it would be far more useful. I've taken that up as a task. Your other point about "latest PRs" is also a good one. That should be relatively easy to do. I'll take up that task. > * The committer may not be familiar with the code and, even though the patch > looks good generally, it is felt that someone familiar with that part of the > system needs to have a look. In particular, this hurts for areas of the system that are unmaintained. > What I suggest is a system where a group of non-committers systematically > pre-process PR:s, to provide feedback and additional quality assurance to the > committer that is to process the PR. > > This group of people could either be a self-proclaimed group of volunteers, or > perhaps a group of people satisfying the criteria of "guy we kinda trust to > do testing and provide a useful indication of sanity and correctness, but not > with a commit bit". So far it hasn't happened. We've set up the freebsd-bugbusters@ mailing list and the #freebsd-bugbusters IRC channel on EFNet (and please join us!) and the latter is where our last 2 bugathons took place. It's clear that there are several people who want to help process the PRs, and we don't have a good answer for them on "how can I contribute?". The existing tool, and social conventions, don't allow for non-committers to change PR states. As far as we've done in the past is to grant people "GNATS access" rights but not "commit rights", on an experimental basis. We've done this twice, and although it has worked well, just two people isn't enough. (One has gone on to become a full committer -- which is great!; the other current does not have as much time for FreeBSD work). Several hundred PRs were dealt with by these two folks, so I consider the experiment a success. What we used as a qualification was "track record of responding to PRs and questions on mailing lists", fwiw. > One possible answer to this that I have gotten in the past with another > project, is that noone is stopping me from just grabbing a bunch of PR:s and > posting follow-ups saying I've tested something, or otherwise giving > feedback. Yes, but that's open-loop as well. It's the same situation as with submitting the patch in the first place: it's going to get frustrating if no committer picks it up and commits it. There's not too many people so thick-skinned and persistent as to keep going forward when no one's using their work. > For example, patches with a high confidence of correctness due to many people > affirming that they have tested it could be automatically prioritized for > committers to deal with, and there will be a clear and systematic record of > what testing was done, and by who. Right. The "priority" field in GNATS has been so abused as to become useless. (People assume that setting it higher will cause some kind of magic to happen.) My current thinking is that what committers ought to see is a metric of correctness, and a metric of priority, _as set by someone who's vetted the PR_. The weekly mailings are too poor an approximation of either to be useful. Adding the second metric would cure one problem that you don't mention -- which is that few people have the interest and patience to plow through N-thousand PRs. It's not humanly possible to look at them all -- even the new ones as they come in. There's simply too many. So, you create an expectation "why bother, there's so many anyways". We need to break that chain of expectation. A good fix is a good fix. The PR count will never get to zero; I (with bugmaster hat on) would be thrilled if we can get to the point of just steady-state. > When I talk about priority above, I do not mean to imply that any committer > should work on things they do not want to work on. But I have to assume that > a lot of patches get committed because a committer decided to go and pick a > few PR:s to process, rather than the committer necessarily has a burning > interest in that particular patch. I think most get committed because a committer sees a PR come in on the mailing list and grabs it. Much less often do committers go through the database looking for things to fix. Again, the lousy "search/browse" capabilities of the existing tool let us down here. > As such, if said committer could spend those minutes closing five times as > many PR:s because the up-front confidence in the correctness of the patch is > so much higher, perhaps it would help the system to "scale", moving some of > the burden off the committers. Right. What we need is to start small and create a _culture_ of where it's fun (or at least intellectually interesting) to work on this stuff. I think the IRC channel may still be the best bet for this. Once I finish fiddling around with the sparc64-6 and sparc64-7 release builds (the first approximation is finished, but I believe we can still add some more packages), I intend to task-switch over to looking towards defining a PR workflow and floating some proposals. I hope to have something concrete to present at BSDCan. Please join us on bugbusters@ to discuss any more ideas, too. mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:10:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB7916A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:10:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1404613C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:10:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLAUKa043003; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLAKUd027852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0BLAKQl091740; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0BLAJ9I091739; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:19 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Peter Schuller Message-ID: <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:10:38 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 07:35:41PM +0100, Peter Schuller wrote: > * The committer may not have access to the hardware, or may not have a > software setup that allows for testing. This means doing such testing > suddenly requires a lot more effort. Another point about hardware is that a patch might influence other hardware handled by the same driver, which can't be verified by the submitter nor the committer. This is especially true with workarounds, which might only be required for specific chip revisions. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:15:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A86F16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:15:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BE313C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:15:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLFETe043284; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLF10G027929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0BLF15X091766; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0BLF12r091765; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net Message-ID: <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:15:16 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:17:25PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > because they would reject it. I considered submitting it > as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would > be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the > OpenSSH people". :-) This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. May I have your patch? -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:19:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAC816A476 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:19:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from mxout7.cac.washington.edu (mxout7.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D84313C4E1 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:19:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.9] (may be forged)) by mxout7.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0BLJFoZ023443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:19:15 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from [192.168.1.105] (c-76-22-52-184.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [76.22.52.184]) (authenticated authid=youshi10) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0BLJFOb023230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:19:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <47874B9B.90400@gmail.com> References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <200801111054.m0BAsjPf090176@fire.js.berklix.net> <47874B9B.90400@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <31262BFF-848A-4353-B3E2-4C8BCC351641@u.washington.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Garrett Cooper Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:19:32 -0800 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.1.11.130329 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __LINES_OF_YELLING 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_PHRASE_24 0, __STOCK_PHRASE_7 0' Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:19:16 -0000 On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> Postmaster@, cc current@ >> >> Astrodog wrote: >>> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. >>> >>> >>> Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it >>> would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace >>> licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. >> >> Good idea. no pre- existing similar list on: >> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ >> eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL >> I checked before my Message-Id: >> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> Since which Aryeh >> Friedman continues to dump licensing chat on current@ & refuses to >> move to chat@. > Just to put my $.02 in I completely support this idea. > > > - -- > Aryeh M. Friedman > FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. > http://www.flosoft-systems.com > Developer, not business, friendly. > > "Free software != Free beer" > > Blog: > > http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/ > aryeh/index.php > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHh0ubjRvRjGmHRgQRAqD+AJ9hK8ygkLjOvefu2e4Ty70NeYbgBwCgizq6 > DNzPG4zjJa/unIUikJFaq3w= > =L7Ix > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- There's a difference between putting in $0.02 and beating a dead horse further. Please note that you're currently one versus a large majority of subscribers that believes that the BSD license should be changed, and also please realize that many more people than just you have to sift through their inboxes to get to email that they might want to read.. -Garrett From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:25:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637D516A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:25:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com [217.146.188.62]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B30D813C4D5 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:25:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: (qmail 67628 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 21:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.2?) (thomasjudge@btinternet.com@86.140.145.126 with plain) by smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2008 21:25:39 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: CG7kYk8VM1mLpzbQhV2mPf9ju.pyCgW4PXNYhNKXePYxtp1j Message-ID: <4787D1AF.3090900@tomjudge.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:29:35 +0000 From: Tom Judge User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ticso@cicely.de References: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:25:43 -0000 Bernd Walter wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:17:25PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: >> Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have >> several other patches that I maintain on my own for >> various reasons. For example I have a local patch set >> that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files >> much faster between slow machines over channels that don't >> need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. >> I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, >> because they would reject it. I considered submitting it >> as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would >> be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the >> OpenSSH people". :-) > > This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. > I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. > May I have your patch? > I have also have this patch (against RELENG_6_2) but it also includes the HPN patches, please drop me a private email if you would like a copy. Tom From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 20:54:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C9716A419; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:54:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D2913C4E5; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:54:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4E6318C0F8; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:54:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:54:11 -0600 To: Robert Watson Message-ID: <20080111205411.GC4787@soaustin.net> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080110210844.J4766@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080110210844.J4766@fledge.watson.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:29:43 +0000 Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:54:12 -0000 Please see my responses to some of these points on a posting I've made in a followup to "Improving the handling of PR:s", initially on freebsd-current@ but now Cc:ed to freebsd-bugbusters@. On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 09:16:54PM +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > I know that Mark Linimon has done quite a bit of analysis of the state of > the PRs, especially as to which ones stay open vs. which ones get closed, > and may be able to offer some insight. I have a vague recollection that > last time around, he reported essentially linear growth in open kernel bug > reports, and essentially stable ports PRs, but I've not really seen stats > on how bug reports against the base system get closed. For example, I'm > not sure we make a "fixed" vs "closed" distinction, which we'd need in > order to do a good analysis. No, we don't make that distinction. Also, we've lost the software that was showing us the graphs of PR count per category over time; the committer who was maintaining it had not had time to work on FreeBSD in a long while and requested his commit bit be returned. Unfortunately we went ahead and cleared out his account, which is where the code that ran that stuff lived. (If I had known about it, I would have grabbed it.) My recollection, last I looked, is there are large swings in the ports PRs, which happen to coincide exactly with ports freezes :-) The kern and bin PRs increase linearly until someone hard-headed enough plows through and knocks a couple of hundred out (hi Kip, Warner :-) ) The curves have flattened out a bit in the past year but we're not close to steady-state there. kern is probably > 30% of the count; bin, > 20%, ports, 20-30%, depending on how open the tree is for commits. The other categories aren't as worrisome as the first 2, and the ports stuff is affected by having an auto-assigner and to some extent portsmon to hang off of them. So really, over 50% of our problem is kern/bin (kern includes drivers and libraries, fwiw.) Again, as I say in that other post, I intend to task-switch onto thinking about what we can do about these situations. We really need to translate "I'd like to help" into "here's what you can do". mcl From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 22:10:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE3816A468 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (lindfield.ch [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E970B13C46B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from c-75-75-30-250.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([75.75.30.250]:64960 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDS5P-000O59-5I for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4787E964.1080604@conducive.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:44 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:10:50 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 07:35:41PM +0100, Peter Schuller wrote: >> But understandable or not, the problem becomes particularly frustrating when >> it affects PR:s that contain patches. Such PR:s constitute direct >> contributions to the project. In cases where such patches are correct/good >> enough, the non-application of those patches have what I believe to be >> significant effects. > > I think you make some excellent points -- especially with how > understandable it is for someone who's submitted a patch which got > ignored, to not do the work to submit the next one. > > With respect to patches, the two things that I've tried -- and they have > been insufficient -- are the following: > > - weekly email of "PRs containing patches" > > - weekly email of "PRs recommended by the bugbuster team" > > We can make the following observations: > > - the "push" paradigm doesn't work particularly well. Partly this is > due to fatigue if you try to read through all this stuff (see below). > > - the "recommended" list has been slightly effective, but it's going > to take some time for it to take off. For one thing, it has been > underpublicized; for another, we don't have the culture of committers > getting "warm fuzzies" from committing PRs. (Since no one working > on that kind of stuff gets paid AFAIK, that's the only positive > feedback they're going to get.) > > Last week someone made the observation that if these things were instead > updated daily and posted to a web page, that it would be far more useful. > I've taken that up as a task. Observation: PR or 'other' - it is presently rather difficult to find [older | most] patches- which reduces the opportunity for testing and feedback, and increases the likelihood of having the situation reported yet-again. And again.. so .. - Can there be a port category (real or 'virtuaized', added - along the lines of: 'patches and workarounds' With caveats, of course.... but hopefully also with provision for co-located feeback, both positive and negative. > > Your other point about "latest PRs" is also a good one. That should be > relatively easy to do. I'll take up that task. > Question: Can an improved 'data mining' project add value? One wherein the tools to look for commonality - sometimes of the less obvious nature - would be easier for all-hands? I include in this the ability to build 'reports' - not just do the present ad hoc searches. If such could be done 'better', it might also benefit from crossproject (i.e all the *BSD's) scope. >> * The committer may not be familiar with the code and, even though the patch >> looks good generally, it is felt that someone familiar with that part of the >> system needs to have a look. > > In particular, this hurts for areas of the system that are unmaintained. > >> What I suggest is a system where a group of non-committers systematically >> pre-process PR:s, to provide feedback and additional quality assurance to the >> committer that is to process the PR. >> >> This group of people could either be a self-proclaimed group of volunteers, or >> perhaps a group of people satisfying the criteria of "guy we kinda trust to >> do testing and provide a useful indication of sanity and correctness, but not >> with a commit bit". > > So far it hasn't happened. We've set up the freebsd-bugbusters@ mailing > list and the #freebsd-bugbusters IRC channel on EFNet (and please join > us!) and the latter is where our last 2 bugathons took place. > > It's clear that there are several people who want to help process the > PRs, and we don't have a good answer for them on "how can I contribute?". > The existing tool, and social conventions, don't allow for non-committers > to change PR states. As far as we've done in the past is to grant people > "GNATS access" rights but not "commit rights", on an experimental basis. > We've done this twice, and although it has worked well, just two people > isn't enough. (One has gone on to become a full committer -- which is > great!; the other current does not have as much time for FreeBSD work). > Several hundred PRs were dealt with by these two folks, so I consider the > experiment a success. > > What we used as a qualification was "track record of responding to PRs and > questions on mailing lists", fwiw. > >> One possible answer to this that I have gotten in the past with another >> project, is that noone is stopping me from just grabbing a bunch of PR:s and >> posting follow-ups saying I've tested something, or otherwise giving >> feedback. > > Yes, but that's open-loop as well. It's the same situation as with submitting > the patch in the first place: it's going to get frustrating if no committer > picks it up and commits it. > > There's not too many people so thick-skinned and persistent as to keep > going forward when no one's using their work. > >> For example, patches with a high confidence of correctness due to many people >> affirming that they have tested it could be automatically prioritized for >> committers to deal with, and there will be a clear and systematic record of >> what testing was done, and by who. > > Right. The "priority" field in GNATS has been so abused as to become > useless. (People assume that setting it higher will cause some kind of > magic to happen.) > > My current thinking is that what committers ought to see is a metric of > correctness, and a metric of priority, _as set by someone who's vetted > the PR_. The weekly mailings are too poor an approximation of either > to be useful. > > Adding the second metric would cure one problem that you don't mention -- > which is that few people have the interest and patience to plow through > N-thousand PRs. It's not humanly possible to look at them all -- even > the new ones as they come in. There's simply too many. So, you create > an expectation "why bother, there's so many anyways". We need to break > that chain of expectation. A good fix is a good fix. The PR count will > never get to zero; I (with bugmaster hat on) would be thrilled if we can > get to the point of just steady-state. DB Admins, SysAdmins, 'Management' need BSD, too and not all the work that needs to be done requires 'C' expertise. Some of us also have spare bandwidth and hardware as well as time, so... > >> When I talk about priority above, I do not mean to imply that any committer >> should work on things they do not want to work on. But I have to assume that >> a lot of patches get committed because a committer decided to go and pick a >> few PR:s to process, rather than the committer necessarily has a burning >> interest in that particular patch. > > I think most get committed because a committer sees a PR come in on the > mailing list and grabs it. Much less often do committers go through the > database looking for things to fix. Again, the lousy "search/browse" > capabilities of the existing tool let us down here. > >> As such, if said committer could spend those minutes closing five times as >> many PR:s because the up-front confidence in the correctness of the patch is >> so much higher, perhaps it would help the system to "scale", moving some of >> the burden off the committers. > > Right. What we need is to start small and create a _culture_ of where > it's fun (or at least intellectually interesting) to work on this stuff. > I think the IRC channel may still be the best bet for this. > > Once I finish fiddling around with the sparc64-6 and sparc64-7 release > builds (the first approximation is finished, but I believe we can still > add some more packages), I intend to task-switch over to looking towards > defining a PR workflow and floating some proposals. I hope to have > something concrete to present at BSDCan. Please join us on bugbusters@ > to discuss any more ideas, too. > > mcl Coders will always set their own priorities. Even when working for a wage. ;-) But all-hands benefit from greater stability and fewer 'critical' things breaking, so rational self-interest might be more effectively applied by each participant if the 'big picture' - in several flavors - was simply published in some 'better' manner. You've ID'ed some of the possibilities - there are bound to be more. Perhaps some of the committers - or at least the project in general - could benefit from more 'virtual office staff' - folks who specifically are NOT coders - to remove obstacles and help leverage their expertise? Background research, documentation, finding and enlisting testers who can help, building and maintaining databases - *doing* tests. Some of that is more amenable to being 'directed' than the coding efforts themselves. Different personality types... JMHK$2CW.. Bill From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 22:15:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD6D16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF2B13C457 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 10650 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 -0000 Message-ID: <4787E990.8000001@chuckr.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:11:28 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:20:50 +0000 Cc: "Aryeh M. Friedman" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 redirected to -chat Astrodog wrote: > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > > Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it > would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace > licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. I don't think it's really needed. What's needed (and I fully understand why folks have been slow to invoke it) is, for a short while, to require folks to follow the mailing list rules a bit more closely, and applying certain sanctions should they violate them. Folks have been flagrantly breaking the rules, and justifying it by saying "no one reads it then!", and if this isn't stopped, the list suffers. Maybe, at the start, just some sterner warnings might possily serve the purpose? But folks need to know that the list monitor is at least awake. > > --- Harrison > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh+mQz62J6PPcoOkRAr9XAKCA7KSqXoeRsh74LJaAf0rp8lQngwCfXdf+ k3NS7Bgq8+bwb0skPHHSv+c= =KmoY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 23:20:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D5916A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:20:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD6513C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:20:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so756668uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:20:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=M4myrnQ+WSGQ0Bh9z5gMU6DOyhbWM1X6ROSY6MFeD8c=; b=JCfg32NcS/EUeGNYANkisySaM3wfb7lJyYgO5qIYQAEhrDACM1kw8nCI7HW7cAmCmW5Z+SODU5kF3ajjXgJL7BfU0y04FnGWnRXjGAo2PLVUJrztgqoYXAMs4QWpY4BdHhpmHgCz4L46C3ed1Q6UeQpZpcmwNdN2DXQH/czd+dA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=FEWzuYM5jYLPzK5hEwGv9uo9rGjpR237jPCLSX/4CiIgZmmGbZjcAHAJjKGb6vQUQvU8Yxryk168C9sA7MxKmfV2yDzhYTH/E+/2D2D0UtcaUNBBTBUEmReJxLnbDMHRZmgfxKZkZ9HyBXOGaVNz8mXSjbxfHkVFCQ+JS2VRtt4= Received: by 10.67.195.14 with SMTP id x14mr742307ugp.40.1200093626863; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:20:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:20:26 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: ticso@cicely.de In-Reply-To: <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 964ac69c1274a535 Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:20:28 -0000 On 11/01/2008, Bernd Walter wrote: > Another point about hardware is that a patch might influence other > hardware handled by the same driver, which can't be verified by the > submitter nor the committer. > This is especially true with workarounds, which might only be required > for specific chip revisions. Which can only be verified/fixed once the patch is merged into a branch and new PRs are filed, if everyone used the approach of "let's not touch it because something might go wrong", nobody would fly because they might be involved in a plane-crash (of a similar model of a plane, just slightly different configuration)... The procedure would be effectively: patch->commit->[fixed|PR->limit the scope of the patch->commit]+ Drawback: more work for the committers. Advantages: people feel rewarded for contributing patches, more hardware support... Voila! Igor :-) From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 00:23:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FFD16A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:23:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51BBD13C43E for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:23:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0C0NKWq051030; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:23:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0C0N7iE029376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:23:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0C0N6NR092217; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:23:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0C0N6XW092216; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:23:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:23:06 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Igor Mozolevsky Message-ID: <20080112002305.GE79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:23:22 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:20:26PM +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 11/01/2008, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > Another point about hardware is that a patch might influence other > > hardware handled by the same driver, which can't be verified by the > > submitter nor the committer. > > This is especially true with workarounds, which might only be required > > for specific chip revisions. > > Which can only be verified/fixed once the patch is merged into a > branch and new PRs are filed, if everyone used the approach of "let's > not touch it because something might go wrong", nobody would fly > because they might be involved in a plane-crash (of a similar model of > a plane, just slightly different configuration)... Planes are different to chips - they are documented well. You can't try and false on patching within the tree. Errors can happen, but you have at least do the best to avoid bad effects on hardware which runs fine so far. > The procedure would be effectively: > > patch->commit->[fixed|PR->limit the scope of the patch->commit]+ Hardware doesn't always work this way. A fix for one HW can break another. > Drawback: more work for the committers. > Advantages: people feel rewarded for contributing patches, more > hardware support... Yes and others with fine running hardware feel unsure about it. The result are new reports or just other users that run away. It is up to the commiter to get the balance of things that likely don't break other HW and those that are risky and need further verification. If it is considered to risky the commiter has to find others to test. See the list for patches, which are published for public testing. This happens for exactly the purpose that the commiter thinks it has some risky nature. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 00:25:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9424216A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:25:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFBE13C448 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:25:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so766563uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=Y2aNvm2XfN/YyDB7iwUdWAkbMONH+E3IqqisWNLgdq8=; b=Ztv1frGxfYKC6Uhe4oTyGw6eawVizr+kDnIgMZ4pYLppKGwfbUIT3lHV/1a/3F3aUS+IopNDkt6HeMJCqubhCCS6FXqkVglxuAeIN82POiHb+VvjP+tgGNCxdeh7PY0UsnMp8epcQCCfgJxVAmVG2XdPX+cONEeA9+a3Gr7N4z4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hXIOfK/GtAO04toYdfO9rhdeL9IaU7bJydrahdCXPdzvfvY0885RkEdJW3iaaUwiCNYnLx7LhKSNInmwMy4EuYW1BV0JNs4c0zKEvs1S6UHnzDlct67xtkWEaAOkwO1NLIG/CAoO6HOaBP3wP4WBTmGpNDzdZIAtErJnydsDBiU= Received: by 10.66.221.17 with SMTP id t17mr622323ugg.66.1200097554628; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:25:54 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: ticso@cicely.de In-Reply-To: <20080112002305.GE79270@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> <20080112002305.GE79270@cicely12.cicely.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4af78e440ead2d6d Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:25:56 -0000 On 12/01/2008, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > Another point about hardware is that a patch might influence other > > > hardware handled by the same driver, which can't be verified by the > > > submitter nor the committer. > > > This is especially true with workarounds, which might only be required > > > for specific chip revisions. > > > > Which can only be verified/fixed once the patch is merged into a > > branch and new PRs are filed, if everyone used the approach of "let's > > not touch it because something might go wrong", nobody would fly > > because they might be involved in a plane-crash (of a similar model of > > a plane, just slightly different configuration)... > > Planes are different to chips - they are documented well. > You can't try and false on patching within the tree. > Errors can happen, but you have at least do the best to avoid bad > effects on hardware which runs fine so far. > > > The procedure would be effectively: > > > > patch->commit->[fixed|PR->limit the scope of the patch->commit]+ > > Hardware doesn't always work this way. > A fix for one HW can break another. Which is why is said *PR->limit the scope of the patch* part! Igor :-/ From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 01:19:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5603B16A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:19:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51B713C4E8 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:19:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (unknown [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52D328449 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:19:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F9AEB3A62; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:19:27 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9DMkRnSgAc6; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:19:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE6FEB37EB; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:19:24 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type; b=FSRRHAywc1fJQ+v1/rnANAZIH9glpiLfuI+Lsk6ZWPqn9INQqmJ1Zw5+QVU4RSPz+ R/yddcis+f01Q35rYQ3Dw== Message-ID: <4788159A.2070703@delphij.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:19:22 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Current X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010507080403060808030601" Subject: [PATCH] Add 'label' to rescue/geom X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:19:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010507080403060808030601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I found that it might be useful to add 'label' to rescue/geom as well. Attached is a patch to implement this. This adds ~80KB to rescue binary on FreeBSD/amd64. Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHiBWai+vbBBjt66ARAopvAKDC0ql1CDBPerwHgUzpiSzSkvRj+gCgjM49 0hUbFgvJl2x4+Lh0kzohX+Q= =YZDq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------010507080403060808030601 Content-Type: text/plain; name="geom-label.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="geom-label.diff" Index: Makefile =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sbin/geom/Makefile,v retrieving revision 1.2 diff -u -p -r1.2 Makefile --- Makefile 4 Nov 2007 00:32:53 -0000 1.2 +++ Makefile 12 Jan 2008 01:11:57 -0000 @@ -2,10 +2,10 @@ .if defined(RESCUE) -.PATH: ${.CURDIR}/class/part ${.CURDIR}/core ${.CURDIR}/misc +.PATH: ${.CURDIR}/class/label ${.CURDIR}/class/part ${.CURDIR}/core ${.CURDIR}/misc PROG= geom -SRCS= geom.c geom_part.c subr.c +SRCS= geom.c geom_label.c geom_part.c subr.c CFLAGS+=-I${.CURDIR} -I${.CURDIR}/core Index: class/label/geom_label.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sbin/geom/class/label/geom_label.c,v retrieving revision 1.10 diff -u -p -r1.10 geom_label.c --- class/label/geom_label.c 15 May 2007 20:25:16 -0000 1.10 +++ class/label/geom_label.c 12 Jan 2008 01:09:06 -0000 @@ -40,16 +40,21 @@ __FBSDID("$FreeBSD: src/sbin/geom/class/ #include "core/geom.h" #include "misc/subr.h" +#ifdef RESCUE +#define PUBSYM(x) glabel_##x +#else +#define PUBSYM(x) x +#endif -uint32_t lib_version = G_LIB_VERSION; -uint32_t version = G_LABEL_VERSION; +uint32_t PUBSYM(lib_version) = G_LIB_VERSION; +uint32_t PUBSYM(version) = G_LABEL_VERSION; static void label_main(struct gctl_req *req, unsigned flags); static void label_clear(struct gctl_req *req); static void label_dump(struct gctl_req *req); static void label_label(struct gctl_req *req); -struct g_command class_commands[] = { +struct g_command PUBSYM(class_commands)[] = { { "clear", G_FLAG_VERBOSE, label_main, G_NULL_OPTS, NULL, "[-v] dev ..." }, Index: core/geom.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sbin/geom/core/geom.c,v retrieving revision 1.33 diff -u -p -r1.33 geom.c --- core/geom.c 4 Nov 2007 00:32:54 -0000 1.33 +++ core/geom.c 12 Jan 2008 01:15:02 -0000 @@ -54,6 +54,8 @@ __FBSDID("$FreeBSD: src/sbin/geom/core/g #ifdef RESCUE extern uint32_t gpart_version; extern struct g_command gpart_class_commands[]; +extern uint32_t glabel_version; +extern struct g_command glabel_class_commands[]; #endif static char comm[MAXPATHLEN], *class_name = NULL, *gclass_name = NULL; @@ -584,6 +586,9 @@ get_class(int *argc, char ***argv) if (!strcasecmp(class_name, "part")) { version = &gpart_version; class_commands = gpart_class_commands; + } else if (!strcasecmp(class_name, "label")) { + version = &glabel_version; + class_commands = glabel_class_commands; } else errx(EXIT_FAILURE, "Invalid class name."); #endif /* !RESCUE */ --------------010507080403060808030601-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 01:25:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8301216A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4889A13C45A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDV7w-00037g-9K for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:36 +0000 Received: from 78-1-116-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([78.1.116.131]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:36 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 78-1-116-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:36 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:25:20 +0100 Lines: 29 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigD41D12318B4DC78578094634" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 78-1-116-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Sun's virtualization X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:25:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigD41D12318B4DC78578094634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Food for thought (as well as pretty pictures): http://blogs.sun.com/ash/resource/flashdemos/64-ldoms-on-t2.html http://blogs.sun.com/ash/resource/flashdemos/linux-ldom.html These are screencasts (Flash required) of "Logical domains" on Niagara 2.= --------------enigD41D12318B4DC78578094634 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiBcKldnAQVacBcgRAqL7AKC5lG3RXHo1rcIl7qpcHnCcwofGcgCfbl0Y QxHDdTvv8PlWfWwh89yAG6Q= =VXLR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigD41D12318B4DC78578094634-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 03:44:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98ACE16A421 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:44:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D9C13C448 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:44:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so796942uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:44:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=mLvklxN6/f80LIoxrtamlRhiZWS00mWPe9/qSgZ35ak=; b=b8FlsOzRNmkV9vjvBNRM3XdsDyxMjYIaCRJuLD548aVAIbRVopXJLMb42wYMf7KZ9DZPrlqnHJm6uHBqUEF9L6bYZ673Js4TStB5AHWRNEtHonn0s2WEkMqWvoafsj4iP1L7vb4pQ/bVV32IHkaiHuKX8/oeomWoth62FVM1hg4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=m6iDlqo7sz1wTt+CBGVCTbO8oeEQg30vEY0FympbWR7a+Tloys8pcXZ9juqBTl2hsNajUHnrXqiXi+htebBhti8Zs7jbxJ6l+0DCzKuQcLkGJsTCOJCWr4sOub+zToSU+9Cvxw3Fkd8y9Cqo894F/p3mzhmzbCq2epQslg/IHYk= Received: by 10.67.19.17 with SMTP id w17mr852335ugi.33.1200107951692; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.219.18 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:19:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:19:11 +0000 From: Chris To: "FreeBSD Current" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:44:30 -0000 After rebooting a FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 server I noticed I could not login as root either via ssh or su, I initially thought I forgot my password but soon noticed that csh was crashing. After reading advice its always safe to keep the default shell for root user I have kept it on all my servers but now this supposedbly safe option has prevented me from logging in. Luckily I had enabled root login (via keys) on sshd and added my ssh key to the root .ssh dir and then logged in as toor over ssh which was using /bin/sh. I have gone through rebuilding world, I am not using any unsafe flags in /etc/make.conf in fact using default compile flags but after all this when running csh it core dumps. ~ # csh Segmentation fault: 11 (core dumped) however /rescue/csh works. I ran ldd to check what its compiled against. # ldd /bin/csh /bin/csh: libncurses.so.7 => /lib/libncurses.so.7 (0x280c5000) libcrypt.so.4 => /lib/libcrypt.so.4 (0x28108000) libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x28121000) all the above 3 files exist. the rescue binary is static. 1 - Is the rescue csh version the same as the one in the base system with the only difference its statically compiled? 2 - Is it safe and a workaround to copy the /rescue/csh to /bin/csh? 3 - Is this a known problem? if not I can do a PR as this is potentially a serious issue if I had no backdoor way in setup with toor I would have been locked out of a remote server with the situation of having to pay a premium for a kvm to get myself back in. not sure if using gbd properly but I ran it and see this. This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd"...(no debugging symbols found)... Core was generated by `csh'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. Reading symbols from /lib/libncurses.so.7...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libncurses.so.7 Reading symbols from /lib/libcrypt.so.4...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libcrypt.so.4 Reading symbols from /lib/libc.so.7...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libc.so.7 Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so...done. Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so Reading symbols from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1...done. Loaded symbols for /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 #0 0x00000000 in ?? () bt shows this #0 0x00000000 in ?? () #1 0x08057c65 in ?? () #2 0x281f7b08 in in6addr_linklocal_allnodes () from /lib/libc.so.7 #3 0x0808c120 in ?? () #4 0x00000001 in ?? () #5 0x0808c120 in ?? () #6 0xbfbfed20 in ?? () #7 0x00000001 in ?? () #8 0xbfbfecd8 in ?? () #9 0x0804bf7a in ?? () #10 0x00000002 in ?? () #11 0x0808c0c5 in ?? () #12 0xbfbfeb48 in ?? () #13 0x280988a6 in dlopen () from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) Chris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 04:58:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6982F16A41A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:58:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC8713C459 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:58:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUI00653LT0MXL0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0C4wAiu000221; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:58:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:58:10 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <31262BFF-848A-4353-B3E2-4C8BCC351641@u.washington.edu> To: Garrett Cooper Message-id: <478848E2.5070305@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <200801111054.m0BAsjPf090176@fire.js.berklix.net> <47874B9B.90400@gmail.com> <31262BFF-848A-4353-B3E2-4C8BCC351641@u.washington.edu> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:58:13 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > Julian H. Stacey wrote: >>>> Postmaster@, cc current@ >>>> >>>> Astrodog wrote: >>>>> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I >>>>> believe it would provide a valuable place to discuss things >>>>> like DTrace licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java >>>>> packages, etc. >>>> >>>> Good idea. no pre- existing similar list on: >>>> > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > >>>> I checked before my Message-Id: >>>> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> Since which >>>> Aryeh Friedman continues to dump licensing chat on current@ & >>>> refuses to move to chat@. > Just to put my $.02 in I completely support this idea. > > > There's a difference between putting in $0.02 and beating a dead > horse further. Please note that you're currently one versus a large > majority of subscribers that believes that the BSD license should > be changed, and also please realize that many more people than just > you have to sift through their inboxes to get to email that they > might want to read.. -Garrett The OP of the purposal made it clear the list has other legit purposes beyond allowing me a place to rant (which I am done with for the most part)... Also splitting this stuff solves the overstuffed inbox issue you site. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiEjhjRvRjGmHRgQRArXxAJ93q5KSk/kvSRZUCP5Ib4zOTGt+7QCgje9o f0I1cPXKwNYx9at2twjKKxY= =r2AK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 06:08:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F6716A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com (omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.82.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3AC13C447 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew-freebsd@areilly.bpc-users.org) Received: from oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080112060818.ZONU9842.omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:18 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080112060818.IUTV19013.oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 8576 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2008 06:08:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO duncan.reilly.home) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jan 2008 06:08:02 -0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +1100 From: Andrew Reilly To: Timo Schoeler Message-ID: <20080112170802.70d6bb64@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <20080111150301.8db7fe96.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> <20080111150301.8db7fe96.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:21 -0000 I really appologise for adding to this thread, but I'm going to anyway. On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:01 +0100 Timo Schoeler wrote: > Second Bingo. And I second that it gets better again. The 5.x was a > deep valley to walk through, at least for me. > > > Peter Holm's stress testing suite, Kris > > Kennaway's constant hammering of FreeBSD to breaking point and > > thorough investigation of failure mode, and countless new individuals > > like myself working in their own small way to improve the OS they > > care for have, in my opinion, produced in FreeBSD 7 (and partially in > > later 6.x releases), performance and stability that hasn't been seen > > since FreeBSD 4. > > That sounds like the future I want to see. In general, I'm almost an > ascetic in those things, but it's enough to make me smile. Thanks. Most of the people who pine for the stability of FreeBSD-4 seem to be missing the point that it was stable essentially because it was the well-honed linear decendent of thirty years of single-processor Unix kernel development. That was wonderful and all, but it was clear by then that that was a dead-end that was untennable to stay in: multiprocessors (including single-chip multi-core) were coming, and it was important that FreeBSD be there to support them. Solaris and Linux might look more stable on multi-processors now, but that's mostly because they started the difficult conversion process earlier, and so have come further down that path. In my opinion, SunOS-5 (aka Solaris-1) was as much a step backwards from SunOS-4 as FreeBSD-5 was from FreeBSD-4. That's because you can make a lot of simplifications, assumptions and shortcuts when there's only one thread of execution. Those assumptions are all there in the code-base, and they're all wrong, as the code comes out from under the GIANT lock. Stabilization is the process of reverse-engineering those assumptions (or replacing whole chunks of functionality with new code that doesn't have them), and it's very, very difficult. Had to happen, though, and everyone's happier now that it did. FreeBSD-7 is by far the best version of FreeBSD that I've used, even though it has to support more types of processor, in more configurations, and with more sophisticated busses and peripherals that are harder to reverse-engineer or acquire documentation for than ever. It's a truly amazing piece of work. I'm looking forward to -8 keenly, but I'm happy for the developers to take as long about it as they need. Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 07:21:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD4716A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:21:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FE613C457 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so820406uge.37 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:21:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=SDdJupqKyzslHpBoGvLHoGNNqw7MizKm16SRgWsOrSk=; b=k66aYbcQjJALIwULLVP83KUt07gJitKHZJrCfFVOhQdSy5QGbP6M5PV51Wdq2f6UIKzY1SKbBlbfl98nVJ40COLu8ojbqFtGvUMuR3ScRP26zOyZ+J/WkmS7L9QpGg/yTf1+BHGDK6mZ/oWSkEbQoMyQsN/ppdXQQku6MmqBGBI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=CpWiOOTrEuRfCjdR9dQG3r65jis9MGm0moT6lqXmhuVkZ0UTT59b6Qdx8+6j2DXh4s+exAT7UVOyjg+g+e3Xu2aQlFACSRLNonHp3R0e3Zjng484Sb67OmbZITYPl7ClKOpPRwxjiE0TNiydwUBD2eb6xIjJ3amIUYMT64yag7o= Received: by 10.67.195.14 with SMTP id x14mr1145639ugp.40.1200122494399; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k5sm6623719nfd.23.2008.01.11.23.21.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8483CB8FC; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:21:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:21:38 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:21:37 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:40:36AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:23:36PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > > > I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of > > bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of > > the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored > > by Google SoC 2007 programme. > > > > You can find the tarball at: > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz > > > > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement > for the current ar/? Then make buildworld? This will possibly not work because you may need to turn off the build of GNU ar first, which is not simple because the build of other GNU tools may depend on the build of GNU ar. (I'm working on this) The recommended way is: (for now) 1. Backup your GNU ar first: % cp /usr/bin/ar SOME_BACKUP_DIR 2. Build BSD ar extract the tarball % cd ar % make 3. Replace # cp ./ar /usr/bin/ar # cd /usr/bin # ln -f ar ranlib Then you can do something like ports build or "make buildworld" to try it out. Later when you need to recover GNU ar: # cp SOME_BACKUP_DIR/ar /usr/bin/ar # cd /usr/bin # ln -f ar ranlib BTW: Please use the version I packed up today, which fixed two bugs reported by swell.k[AT]gmail[Dot]com yesterday. http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080112.tgz -- Kai From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 08:06:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0FC16A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:06:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.111]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F055913C442 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:06:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 10509 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2008 08:06:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=sVPaZmlzdAD2x8GuOOm0rDloUSHDajj9GLpAewVhu57W+fCIk3QMXeGP4rOBy+bUaux1rVEKeO/SJxaK/Ab+FGe4OUzDPmtRGSklSAPsQsMlQc3LvcCgIMXydez2f4gpIeB5mvWXM00akMTdQKoeXt63RrQcTaTFMWGGfOhNMOo=; X-YMail-OSG: FNC3srYVM1mXj7ewGRthJsBFgQ_VFvsmiJmWKO6.v89KAJKdE_Zl7wCDdwcIGXOedCM1KhkgbDfP.Muwy6MSWrn2eyDNnvDNbRdZ Received: from [165.21.154.16] by web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:06:09 PST Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:06:09 -0800 (PST) From: Unga To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <298957.89824.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <111577.8235.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Truncated capability record buffer returned [SOLVED] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:06:10 -0000 --- Unga wrote: > Hi all > > The capability record buffer returned by the > login_getpwclass() (defined in > /usr/src/lib/libutil/login_cap.c) is truncated: > > lc->lc_cap shows only up to following: > myclass1: > :passwd_format=md5: > :copyright=/etc/COPYRIGHT: > :welcome=/etc/motd: > :setenv=MAIL=/var/mail/$,BLOCKSIZE=K,FTP_PASSIVE_MODE=YES: > > :path=/sbin /bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /usr/games > /usr/local/sbin /usr/loca > Sorry, it was a data error. Regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 08:16:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011B16A421 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF9813C478 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1527739fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.174.20 with SMTP id w20mr6931716bue.21.1200125808937; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.181.17 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:48 -0800 From: "Peter Wemm" To: "Steve Kargl" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Cc: Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:16:52 -0000 On Jan 11, 2008 11:21 PM, Kai Wang wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:40:36AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:23:36PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > > > > > I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of > > > bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of > > > the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored > > > by Google SoC 2007 programme. > > > > > > You can find the tarball at: > > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz > > > > > > > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement > > for the current ar/? > > Then make buildworld? > This will possibly not work because you may need to turn off > the build of GNU ar first, which is not simple because the build of other > GNU tools may depend on the build of GNU ar. (I'm working on this) I have a request.. can you put it in src/usr.bin/ar and make a build hook to turn it on or off? By all means, leave it off to start with if you're not sure that it is ready, but it would be nice to capture it in the tree. Perhaps something like a temporary -DWITH_BSDAR switch for building world would do. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 08:50:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9807816A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from mxout7.cac.washington.edu (mxout7.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744A213C45B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from youshi10@u.washington.edu) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout7.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0C8oAAg006116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:11 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from [192.168.1.105] (c-76-22-52-184.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [76.22.52.184]) (authenticated authid=youshi10) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m0C8oApS021409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Garrett Cooper Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:28 -0800 To: Chris X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.1.12.3255 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:50:11 -0000 On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Chris wrote: > After rebooting a FreeBSD 7.0-RC1 server I noticed I could not login > as root either via ssh or su, I initially thought I forgot my password > but soon noticed that csh was crashing. After reading advice its > always safe to keep the default shell for root user I have kept it on > all my servers but now this supposedbly safe option has prevented me > from logging in. > > Luckily I had enabled root login (via keys) on sshd and added my ssh > key to the root .ssh dir and then logged in as toor over ssh which was > using /bin/sh. > > I have gone through rebuilding world, I am not using any unsafe flags > in /etc/make.conf in fact using default compile flags but after all > this when running csh it core dumps. > > ~ # csh > Segmentation fault: 11 (core dumped) > > however /rescue/csh works. > > I ran ldd to check what its compiled against. > > # ldd /bin/csh > /bin/csh: > libncurses.so.7 => /lib/libncurses.so.7 (0x280c5000) > libcrypt.so.4 => /lib/libcrypt.so.4 (0x28108000) > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x28121000) > > all the above 3 files exist. > > the rescue binary is static. > > 1 - Is the rescue csh version the same as the one in the base system > with the only difference its statically compiled? > > 2 - Is it safe and a workaround to copy the /rescue/csh to /bin/csh? > > 3 - Is this a known problem? if not I can do a PR as this is > potentially a serious issue if I had no backdoor way in setup with > toor I would have been locked out of a remote server with the > situation of having to pay a premium for a kvm to get myself back in. > > not sure if using gbd properly but I ran it and see this. > > This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd"...(no debugging > symbols found)... > Core was generated by `csh'. > Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. > Reading symbols from /lib/libncurses.so.7...(no debugging symbols > found)...done. > Loaded symbols for /lib/libncurses.so.7 > Reading symbols from /lib/libcrypt.so.4...(no debugging symbols > found)...done. > Loaded symbols for /lib/libcrypt.so.4 > Reading symbols from /lib/libc.so.7...(no debugging symbols > found)...done. > Loaded symbols for /lib/libc.so.7 > Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so...done. > Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so > Reading symbols from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1...done. > Loaded symbols for /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > #0 0x00000000 in ?? () > > bt shows this > > #0 0x00000000 in ?? () > #1 0x08057c65 in ?? () > #2 0x281f7b08 in in6addr_linklocal_allnodes () from /lib/libc.so.7 > #3 0x0808c120 in ?? () > #4 0x00000001 in ?? () > #5 0x0808c120 in ?? () > #6 0xbfbfed20 in ?? () > #7 0x00000001 in ?? () > #8 0xbfbfecd8 in ?? () > #9 0x0804bf7a in ?? () > #10 0x00000002 in ?? () > #11 0x0808c0c5 in ?? () > #12 0xbfbfeb48 in ?? () > #13 0x280988a6 in dlopen () from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) > > Chris I'd ldd libcrypt, libncurses, and libiconv, just to be sure.. -Garrett From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 08:51:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5300316A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F5E13C455 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:51:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1535735fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:51:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=ngDhsMLhP3GA6lYZSAlMk8CVKPqdnJCFjyJfjrrNYng=; b=oJBsOoeuYIFwE2YxwBaA7jjPYp55C0QDRifU3yhQ13Y8zR49xB0Kd4NfU244p3WtwZ31grjJ1Gx1moLSX+g6NE2PPnG5LTymcKRC7z22sdgBelb0tlAwV/L+6HSpQ9DLAX3V2m3UoscxXiLZoIhCdkZxYwktG8M7hhlGDeeB7WQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=DPZMKsnpvUPed12nekNENOgJlTiCCCEx0aWX3VGpD3vIprXctWUDigpkko6iGEXFQzbljI7s+jXWeZqIJAkJdWRV+m0ogH57wkMRdC8foINbJ2+5xePDKpdxgMY/fHSqhyVVLFUjFTcm+TciOxf0bdr/e4YXTxK6F9EA2VKp4Kc= Received: by 10.82.174.20 with SMTP id w20mr6966721bue.21.1200127894815; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f8sm6732241nfh.13.2008.01.12.00.51.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 522DEB8FF; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:51:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:51:34 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20080112085134.GA1613@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:51:36 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:21:38AM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > The recommended way is: (for now) > > 1. Backup your GNU ar first: > % cp /usr/bin/ar SOME_BACKUP_DIR > > 2. Build BSD ar > extract the tarball > % cd ar > % make > > 3. Replace > # cp ./ar /usr/bin/ar > # cd /usr/bin > # ln -f ar ranlib > > Then you can do something like ports build or "make buildworld" > to try it out. > > Later when you need to recover GNU ar: > > # cp SOME_BACKUP_DIR/ar /usr/bin/ar > # cd /usr/bin > # ln -f ar ranlib This won't work as GNU ranlib is not merely a hardlink to ar. Thus correct way would be: 1. Backup your GNU ar and ranlib first: % cp /usr/bin/ar SOME_BACKUP_DIR % cp /usr/bin/ranlib SOME_BACKUP_DIR 2. Build BSD ar extract the tarball % cd ar % make 3. Replace # cp ./ar /usr/bin/ar # cd /usr/bin # ln -f ar ranlib When recover GNU ar: # cp SOME_BACKUP_DIR/ar /usr/bin/ar # cp SOME_BACKUP_DIR/ranlib /usr/bin/ranlib Sorry for the mess... BTW: I'm working on a patch for -CURRENT as peter@ just suggested. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 09:11:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF2116A41A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:11:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from mail.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE2613C46A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:11:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from homeKamikaze.norad (nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.72.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C75405C13; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:11:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47888443.9060300@bsdforen.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:11:31 +0100 From: Dominic Fandrey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> <47875131.4040802@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47875131.4040802@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:11:36 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Dominic Fandrey wrote: >>> The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are >>> suffering >>> for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a >>> hard disk >>> suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and >>> stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been >>> ignored. Only >>> on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken >>> seriously. >> >> Thanks for the feedback. It is hard to respond to the reports of poor >> performance or other problems without specific information though. > > FYI this was not a dismissal, it was an invitation for you to follow up > with the specific problems your members have seen so we can try to > evaluate them. Yes, thank you. I consider the first replies to the mail as very positive and the intention to take us serious and try help us is clear. I'm a bit disappointed the thread has been hijacked by people who want to press their own agenda. The last time I sent a performance complaint to ports@ it resulted in faster code (pkg_install, bsd.ports.mkd), not in license discussions. Anyway, the general description is the following: during a portupgrade the system response time goes up to several seconds or even minutes during a portupgrade. Imagine writing an email and having to wait a minute for your typing to show up. Needless to say, that using a mouse is impossible. This effect how ever is, though best seen there, not limited to X. Ping times to an affected system doing a portupgrade also go up to several seconds (over a cross cable). What I need now is someone to tell me, what to do in order to track the reasons down. It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a tool for creating scheduler traces, which I might ask people to collect, but my unqualified opinion is that it's an interrupt handling problem. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 09:26:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2D716A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:26:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from mail.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8732313C461 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:26:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from homeKamikaze.norad (nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.72.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF17405C35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:26:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:26:12 +0100 From: Dominic Fandrey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> In-Reply-To: <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:26:15 -0000 Peter Schuller wrote: > The second, possibly worse effect, is that the original submitter, I believe, > is less inclined to spend more time in the future contributing, if said > submitter feels the work is wasted because no one commits or even comments on > the PR. I can confirm this, one of our members started writing a new driver for the ES1370 sound chip (following the hardware docs), because the current driver has sampling rate and other issues (at least for this user) to this day. To see how commitments are received he sent a one-line patch for the existing driver kern/98167. It was never committed due to lack of further feedback from others and our member stopped developing the driver. Since he explained his patch with stating that the current implementation doesn't follow the HW-specs, I don't think that further testing would have been required to commit it to a developer branch like CURRENT or RELENG. From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:02:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBEB16A41B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:02:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788DF13C4DD; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D4320B9; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:02:42 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C327120B1; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:02:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B013D8449F; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:02:42 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Sam Leffler References: <86ir2hznnd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnpu0wv.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86abnovy4k.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86odc3dlgi.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86lk76c6t5.fsf@ds4.des.no> <864pds8idc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4787B540.2040003@errno.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:02:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4787B540.2040003@errno.com> (Sam Leffler's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 10\:28\:16 -0800") Message-ID: <867iif7459.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Sepherosa Ziehau , kevlo@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: if_ral regression X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:02:53 -0000 Sam Leffler writes: > FWIW I took ownership of a ral bug where AP mode tx just stopped for > no apparent reason (I think it was probe response frames but can't > recall). This sounds like the same thing; can you check kern/117655? Looks similar, except for the part about the PCI version - my AP is a soekris net4801 which I suspect supports only good old 1.1. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:16:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C1B16A46D for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB2113C467 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so840246uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:16:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=0LfPwYUHjCQjzf4ALb8fVIVXhAUqbeBGVSHfC+28jLs=; b=eN/69f6POm5yty8U6X1vfzE3BvQBxyZtjwgLKRPb+iin1Qt4leEV27Z/E3E0HQ2+ok3J5xUk6wosy/hs5vTT+FaRu90xy/E4fRLOtrhj4f/nxDcazFlrv79XVdIilArK8H19T6wuAz0JtVq7yAMApJJuXgqyu6TfsiaSmHLgZtI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=piVCH7fIO05SxXhRNgFTmQF5Slk3ilyCKd620n7+RDM2JYk5tk42RyUBBZgeh4DPfVjq7PTH5MdzX6RqmFbMRVdArI/xvKMvYZ0A73j/kYOvExbKqlyhLhV0OxASt4WEyL98ardoNHJwSehXZdl7GB7ndxauQGOxJMF6VxMxVP0= Received: by 10.67.115.17 with SMTP id s17mr1312720ugm.56.1200132989170; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:16:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:16:29 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: ticso@cicely.de In-Reply-To: <20080112002305.GE79270@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111211019.GC79270@cicely12.cicely.de> <20080112002305.GE79270@cicely12.cicely.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7e20e852314f6f3d Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:16:31 -0000 On 12/01/2008, Bernd Walter wrote: > > Drawback: more work for the committers. > > Advantages: people feel rewarded for contributing patches, more > > hardware support... > > Yes and others with fine running hardware feel unsure about it. > The result are new reports or just other users that run away. > It is up to the commiter to get the balance of things that likely > don't break other HW and those that are risky and need further > verification. > If it is considered to risky the commiter has to find others to test. > See the list for patches, which are published for public testing. > This happens for exactly the purpose that the commiter thinks it has > some risky nature. I thought that was the whole point of CURRENT/BETA/RC? You can either hope that the committer will eventually find someone with same/similar hardware and that they're willing to experiment with it (although, why would anyone try running something that is considered risky on a production system is beyond me), *or* you can force everyone ot test it (given they have the right hardware) and push it into CURRENT or the next BETA where people expect to have glitches in... Igor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:27:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47CD16A417; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089BF13C447; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0CARltv027673; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:47 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.4.2 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk m0CARltv027673 Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dkim=hardfail (SSP) header.i=unknown Message-ID: <47889623.3090203@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:47 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071122) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Linimon References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1]); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:48 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/5478/Fri Jan 11 15:39:22 2008 on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Peter Schuller , freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:27:54 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Mark Linimon wrote: > It's clear that there are several people who want to help process the > PRs, and we don't have a good answer for them on "how can I contribute?". > The existing tool, and social conventions, don't allow for non-committers > to change PR states. As far as we've done in the past is to grant people > "GNATS access" rights but not "commit rights", on an experimental basis. > We've done this twice, and although it has worked well, just two people > isn't enough. (One has gone on to become a full committer -- which is > great!; the other current does not have as much time for FreeBSD work). > Several hundred PRs were dealt with by these two folks, so I consider the > experiment a success. > > What we used as a qualification was "track record of responding to PRs and > questions on mailing lists", fwiw. Most of my experience with submitting PRs is ports related. If I post a PR against a port I maintain then I'm pretty certain that it will be dealt with in a matter of days. PRs against other ports take perhaps a week. On the other hand, I've put in occasional PRs against the base system - -- where it's a whole other story. My favourite is a patch I sent in to allow using k, M, G etc. as order of magnitude modifiers on find(1)'s - -size predicate. It was committed recently after sitting in the PR database untouched for about 3 years. As I understand it, I think the reason for this difference in performance at resolving PRs is because there is a body of ports committers that basically expect to spend a lot of time committing other people's work, whereas src committers are generally focussed on their own projects and tend to commit what they or people closely associated with them have developed. Perhaps part of the answer is to create a new cadre of people with commit rights over parts of the src tree. These would be relatively junior people whose principal function would be to review and commit contributed patches, or bring them to the attention of any of the more senior people if the contribution warranted it. Senior people benefit by having fewer irrelevant distractions. General FreeBSD users benefit by knowing that contributions they make will be considered more promptly. People that volunteer for this benefit by gaining a broad introduction to the src code base -- surely a useful step for anyone with ambitions towards full committer-hood. Cheers, Matthew - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiJYj8Mjk52CukIwRCLuHAJwM0u7m0lhus1KSvraV2dxMfvZELQCfZXFh iub5gnKeG8H7t7O5UFxLTpE= =sdaT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:38:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4561B16A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:38:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pyunyh@gmail.com) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.180]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9EE13C45D for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:38:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pyunyh@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so2510257waf.3 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:38:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=ld+SS5+355xS4tBbfGHfevnfMsXgDY0OW4Yu3CCIQiI=; b=jNCAFhjLX3Mnibu4xJgHsl6zg+4+/X5Oi7uSduXgwFMpYUWr42bqWv8b1HzBy1Y+6gG+JlywBPtw5hsVjkfaYAb9QC5LrenE1qSF4XWsJcCP8wVup8tUa8f6fInnHWXkntdczGXVK1d59HQ4tgPwHwfZ3eY9FjAZMH1ZBiCE/L4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=eGPNrRJjWViA3M17h04xxEKoagL4klhmd2KTdgUUR3bSWz4uBCIlJxwp+iDyagcFV7XLp/+2KMiwSGFDxInPvUU3/5VzscVA13NkNsjvkpMdb5uibgkfuBeFf5waCniXQTzJ+rHYrikQRUKEnNfWFFpRRuyhAAxtyygUyEaOeoA= Received: by 10.114.199.1 with SMTP id w1mr1020615waf.38.1200134279670; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from michelle.cdnetworks.co.kr ( [211.53.35.84]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l22sm10251462waf.10.2008.01.12.02.37.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from michelle.cdnetworks.co.kr (localhost.cdnetworks.co.kr [127.0.0.1]) by michelle.cdnetworks.co.kr (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id m0CAXEXM069885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:33:14 +0900 (KST) (envelope-from pyunyh@gmail.com) Received: (from yongari@localhost) by michelle.cdnetworks.co.kr (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id m0CAXE62069884 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:33:14 +0900 (KST) (envelope-from pyunyh@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:33:14 +0900 From: Pyun YongHyeon To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080112103314.GB69661@cdnetworks.co.kr> References: <20080102033939.GB27551@cdnetworks.co.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080102033939.GB27551@cdnetworks.co.kr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: CFT: sf(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pyunyh@gmail.com List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:38:01 -0000 On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 12:39:39PM +0900, To freebsd-current@freebsd.org wrote: > Hi, > > I had been using the following overhauled sf(4) for serveral months > without issues. It would be really great sf(4) users can test the > driver and report back how it works on his/her box. Basically the > driver does the following thing. > - bus_dma(9) conversion and endianness support : Now sf(4) should > work on all architectures that FreeBSD runs. > - Performance optimization : switch to type 2 Tx descriptor and > removed lots of PCI register access. Rx alignment fixup is only > called on strict-alignment architectures so i386/amd64 would > get instant Rx performance boost. > - AIC-6915 supports Rx/Tx checksum offload as well as hardware VLAN > tag insertion/stripping if firmware is loaded into frame > processor. Unfortunately the firmware is not available under BSD > license so these additional hardware accelerations are not > available yet on FreeBSD. :-( > - Code cleanup & misc bug fixes. > A couple of days ago brueffer@ sent me a Starfire firmware. He said gibbs@ sent him the firmware but checksum offload capability was not added into driver at that time. So I took the firmware and wrote a download routine from the information in datasheet. But the firmware had a bug that prevents hardware from computing Tx checksumm. Fortunately, I managed to analyze the bug and fixed it by hand. :-) I've updated the overhauled sf(4) to use the firmware and fixed several minor bugs in it. If there are no objections I'll commit it in two weeks. The overhauled sf(4) has two sysctl variables not present in stock version. dev.sf.N.stats : N indicates instance number of driver. With 'sysctl dev.sf.0.stats=1' command, you can see lots of useful counters maintained by driver. Most counters are 32bit value but number of Tx/Rx frames/octets and Rx bytes associated with packet length are 64bit value. dev.sf.N.int_mod : N indicates instance number of driver. This controls how long sf(4) delays interrupt processing. Accepted range is 0 to 31. Actual interrupt delay time is comuted by the following expression. delay = dev.sf.N.int_mod * 102.4us The default value is 1(e.g. 102.4us). 0 completely disables the interrupt modertation. Install: http://people.freebsd.org/~yongari/sf/if_sf.c http://people.freebsd.org/~yongari/sf/if_sfreg.h http://people.freebsd.org/~yongari/sf/starfire_rx.h http://people.freebsd.org/~yongari/sf/starfire_tx.h Download and copy the above files to /usr/src/sys/pci directory and rebuild sf(4). Because I removed unnecessary copy operation in Rx path you should see instant performance boost on i386/amd64. sparc64 still need the copy operation, though. If you find any regression please let me know. Thank you! -- Regards, Pyun YongHyeon From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:45:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045DC16A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:45:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aturetta@commit.it) Received: from aa002msb.fastweb.it (aa002msb.fastweb.it [85.18.95.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7957113C458 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:45:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aturetta@commit.it) Received: from mail.bestunion.it (85.18.250.114) by aa002msb.fastweb.it (7.3.118.6) id 466578130D80A883 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:45:31 +0100 Received: from mail.bestunion.it (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bestunion.it (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0CAjSAP042091; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:45:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from aturetta@commit.it) Received: from 192.168.33.209 (proxying for 151.65.155.150) (SquirrelMail authenticated user aturetta@bestunion.it) by mail.bestunion.it with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:45:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52220.192.168.33.209.1200134728.squirrel@mail.bestunion.it> In-Reply-To: <47888443.9060300@bsdforen.de> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> <47875131.4040802@FreeBSD.org> <47888443.9060300@bsdforen.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:45:28 +0100 (CET) From: "Angelo Turetta" To: "Dominic Fandrey" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on mail.bestunion.it X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on mail.bestunion.it Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:45:34 -0000 > Anyway, the general description is the following: during a portupgrade the > system response time goes up to several seconds or even minutes during a > portupgrade. Imagine writing an email and having to wait a minute for your > typing to show up. Needless to say, that using a mouse is impossible. > This effect how ever is, though best seen there, not limited to X. Ping > times to an affected system doing a portupgrade also go up to several > seconds (over a cross cable). > > What I need now is someone to tell me, what to do in order to track the > reasons down. It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a > tool for creating scheduler traces, which I might ask people to collect, > but my unqualified opinion is that it's an interrupt handling problem. Yes, I bet you incurred in what's called a "interrupt storm". Asus M2N-E (and similar) had similar problems in both RELENG_6 and RELENG_7 until the end of 2006. Output of 'vmstat -i' whould prove it. You may try to alleviate it by moving PCI cards to different slots, or removing them altogether. I can't help you solving it, though :( Angelo From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 11:56:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C64416A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:56:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.189]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FB113C448 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:56:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0CBuOja015623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:56:26 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0CBuO8W013210; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:56:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0CBuOK6013209; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:56:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:56:24 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Dominic Fandrey Message-ID: <20080112115624.GE60060@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jL2BoiuKMElzg3CS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:56:39 -0000 --jL2BoiuKMElzg3CS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 10:26:12AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: >I can confirm this, one of our members started writing a new driver for the >ES1370 sound chip (following the hardware docs), because the current driver >has sampling rate and other issues (at least for this user) to this day. To >see how commitments are received he sent a one-line patch for the existing >driver kern/98167. > >It was never committed due to lack of further feedback from others and our >member stopped developing the driver. Since he explained his patch with >stating that the current implementation doesn't follow the HW-specs, I don= 't >think that further testing would have been required to commit it to a >developer branch like CURRENT or RELENG. This PR brings up an issue that has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread: Even where a PR contains a patch, a committer may be unwilling to commit the change because they are unable to verify the patch themselves. Looking at the audit-trail, it appears that kib initially took the PR because he believed he could test it but discovered that he had a slightly different audio chipset, could not locate a data-sheet specifically documenting the ES1370 and no-one else would confirm that the patch was correct. Since the committer is taking responsibility for the code they commit to the repository, a degree of conservatism is understandable - especially where they are unable to personally verify the patch. I'm not sure what the solution to this is. In an ideal world, maybe I would be able to feed a dmesg or pciconf into a tool and have it report all outstanding PRs that contain patches needing confirmation that I could test. Unfortunately, such a tool doesn't exist. It's unfortunate that Joseph's experience with this PR caused him to abandon his project, though I'm not sure that it is reasonable to extrapolate from a PR with a one line patch to a new driver. In retrospect, possibly he could have more proactive in discussing his plans with committers who are active in the sound subsystem. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --jL2BoiuKMElzg3CS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHiKro/opHv/APuIcRAtGaAKCmsLzVozltlgSvhfD6LlMN/6JYSwCfQkez gRDRtULDaP0BTSvPyI2d7GE= =bcg2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jL2BoiuKMElzg3CS-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 12:04:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B148B16A469 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:04:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D972713C44B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4788ACC1.6020908@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:04:17 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dominic Fandrey References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <478560AE.2000102@FreeBSD.org> <47875131.4040802@FreeBSD.org> <47888443.9060300@bsdforen.de> In-Reply-To: <47888443.9060300@bsdforen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:04:21 -0000 Dominic Fandrey wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Dominic Fandrey wrote: >>>> The first problem is the unbearable performance many AMD users are >>>> suffering >>>> for several chipset and CPU generations. Even minimal I/O load on a >>>> hard disk >>>> suffices to lock up whole systems. Posts on the mailinglists current and >>>> stable have often been answered with denial or have simply been >>>> ignored. Only >>>> on very rare occasions (if at all) have these problems been taken >>>> seriously. >>> Thanks for the feedback. It is hard to respond to the reports of poor >>> performance or other problems without specific information though. >> FYI this was not a dismissal, it was an invitation for you to follow up >> with the specific problems your members have seen so we can try to >> evaluate them. > > Yes, thank you. I consider the first replies to the mail as very positive and > the intention to take us serious and try help us is clear. I'm a bit > disappointed the thread has been hijacked by people who want to press their > own agenda. The last time I sent a performance complaint to ports@ it resulted > in faster code (pkg_install, bsd.ports.mkd), not in license discussions. > > Anyway, the general description is the following: during a portupgrade the > system response time goes up to several seconds or even minutes during a > portupgrade. Imagine writing an email and having to wait a minute for your > typing to show up. Needless to say, that using a mouse is impossible. > This effect how ever is, though best seen there, not limited to X. Ping times > to an affected system doing a portupgrade also go up to several seconds (over > a cross cable). > > What I need now is someone to tell me, what to do in order to track the > reasons down. It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a > tool for creating scheduler traces, which I might ask people to collect, but > my unqualified opinion is that it's an interrupt handling problem. Yes, it could be. What do vmstat, vmstat -i and top -S say? In the latter, look at which threads are using CPU. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 13:44:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D81016A468; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0C113C45A; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9918520A0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86417207E; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 759D4844C0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 20\:17\:25 +0100 \(CET\)") Message-ID: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:17 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > because they would reject it. Correct. > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I > think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to > the OpenSSH people". :-) Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it in a different way than it was already broken. I was very disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > community, but that's a different story). > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 13:51:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BDA16A46B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E9213C4F9; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054180072.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.180.72]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324F4C6F1898; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 682F01E2D; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:46 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:42 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > > because they would reject it. >=20 > Correct. >=20 > > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, > > but I think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it > > upstream to the OpenSSH people". :-) >=20 > Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost > trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. >=20 > > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. >=20 > Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it > in a different way than it was already broken. I was very > disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to > contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. >=20 > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be > > > ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) >=20 > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. > I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of > the project and its perception by a native-language user group, > culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between > members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a > flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the > developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language > communities. >=20 > I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD > community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to > bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of > the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) >=20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:00:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F4F16A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:00:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B53113C448 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:00:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A0E46B86; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:00:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:00:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Message-ID: <20080112135630.I36731@fledge.watson.org> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:00:37 -0000 On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: >>>>> (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but >>>>> that's a different story). >>>> Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; >>> I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, >>> second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily >>> measured anyway.) >> >> BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the >> same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities >> with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they >> construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. > > Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an > excuse and disparages the work done there. There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we do need to find some way to bridge the gap. I have to admit that I live very much in that e-mail world: I tried following the PC-BSD web forums for a bit, but the fact that the messages failed to appear neatly in threads in my mail reader meant it was awkward and inconvenient, and wasn't part of my regular workflow in which I intermittently poll my mail reader while getting other work done, referencing it on occasion with explicit searches, etc. I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to "meet" many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:01:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BF416A41B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC6813C4E7; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CE1do9084809; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CE1Us3035811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0CE1UYU094610; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0CE1T4C094609; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:29 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20080112140128.GK79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:42 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:44:06PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. It is not only a native language forum it is a web based forum, which as such has a problem to attract persons which are deeper into the scene, since web based forums are not as simple to handle as tranditional mailing-lists without bringing anything on the pro side. I don't know if it is the largest German BSD community or not, but it is likely the German BSD community with the largest newcommer vs expirienced ratio. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:08:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F051316A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.156]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6392613C468 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1630687fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=l27CMrYg8l0PaU12v5ekLYa1kdqM6M4qVtSXaZ/jaPg=; b=MmB1SD7GNzVvdtL9aU7TA1ZNuAo6WDePZnUzk8r0eI9YxquhSjoMJSMNP2MHpzCJFfkpIzwEETOnsNF5exOns5PxvjIDMl5x1zoNDwJmEDcqDva3HY5WbMrorkFla0WtjLYG2Q1oRGNztNeR/kVx6SFZZhxDnEZPhUGsRkhSFyY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=d5TAne92bFaeHnc/rVhEvC0WSrjep5+gt2NLBc46wUyFH8SSyZ/C8v7LbN8XyJPjKi7D6SfxuFTOIgmmHmsgEkSdyU5/52IbEu6ecRvkFHP+5Sbd0uVnR2I07FiUGHondbtibPQtKCtSQYAvuuDpY4fHCTXmsHrx/9DrOvgjnrs= Received: by 10.82.159.15 with SMTP id h15mr7409028bue.36.1200146907973; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 31sm3158255nfu.5.2008.01.12.06.08.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:08:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2E224B8FC; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:08:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:08:28 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: Peter Wemm Message-ID: <20080112140828.GA1284@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Wemm , Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: [Call for testers][PATCH] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:08:31 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 12:16:48AM -0800, Peter Wemm wrote: > I have a request.. can you put it in src/usr.bin/ar and make a build > hook to turn it on or off? By all means, leave it off to start with > if you're not sure that it is ready, but it would be nice to capture > it in the tree. > > Perhaps something like a temporary -DWITH_BSDAR switch for building > world would do. Good idea. Here comes the patch: http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080112.diff To apply it: # cd /usr/src # patch -p1 < PATH/ar-20080112.diff To enable the build of BSD ar: (disable GNU ar) # cd /usr/src # make buildworld -DWITH_BSDAR # ... # make installworld -DWITH_BSDAR Any feedback would be greatly appreciated :) Kai Wang From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:12:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B172E16A41A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:12:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159AA13C442 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:12:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CECAen085390; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:12:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CEC28s035900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:12:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0CEC22u094636; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:12:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0CEC2Et094635; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:12:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:12:02 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080112141201.GL79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:12:12 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:21:38AM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:40:36AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement > > for the current ar/? > > Then make buildworld? > This will possibly not work because you may need to turn off > the build of GNU ar first, which is not simple because the build of other > GNU tools may depend on the build of GNU ar. (I'm working on this) > > The recommended way is: (for now) > > 1. Backup your GNU ar first: > % cp /usr/bin/ar SOME_BACKUP_DIR > > 2. Build BSD ar > extract the tarball > % cd ar > % make > > 3. Replace > # cp ./ar /usr/bin/ar > # cd /usr/bin > # ln -f ar ranlib > > Then you can do something like ports build or "make buildworld" > to try it out. But then it is only used for building the toolchain, not for building the world/universe itself. Did you try adding it into the toolchain for your make universe tests? I don't know how sensitive ar is to cross builds, but of course it is important for us to support cross builds. Nevertheless I think it is great to have a replacement. We have a lot of additional traditional tools under the BSD licence and I feel more and more comfortable with this. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:37:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB9216A421 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728E813C478 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1640281fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:37:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=JPZ/C5jTCxxAtA5QMvtbJcuLaOWkkM/vSpS5LEFE3bI=; b=SN16RAmL0KIEFsAWjOzzqsCErdFrmXh4R+i2dYlwQ+/UyJK+E+VF83mPG/fpdZW6qjXN6Z8nk1gxHxGbMdfVwpu+pvHfySgjzVGBk8z40snqjPbo2RbevrCN/MLxBv4WAzY1cP8xbceTDKf4dBJDfW6YpBKkU9TzEGYFk5WyOaU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=UqbOvpgnzx40VE3mqha/ip6cT1K/HuzCDZSbflq/wHViUsokcKDub3XPMsdNlrr6I2ExzLpPM8Xu8xQY6TSeso1pzLloIvLJ9/8GoH+vO0xKfdxi6eIVej05d0vR3kGt6Ncz88VmehXB1fXfWzkfudwAkDPqBzySkeXzFQDPYm8= Received: by 10.86.95.20 with SMTP id s20mr3043442fgb.67.1200148626079; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm3181477gve.11.2008.01.12.06.37.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 16981B8FC; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:37:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:37:03 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: ticso@cicely.de Message-ID: <20080112143703.GA1748@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: ticso@cicely.de, Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080112141201.GL79270@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112141201.GL79270@cicely12.cicely.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:08 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:12:02PM +0100, Bernd Walter wrote: > But then it is only used for building the toolchain, not for building > the world/universe itself. > Did you try adding it into the toolchain for your make universe tests? > I don't know how sensitive ar is to cross builds, but of course it is > important for us to support cross builds. I mentioned that I've done "make universe" in the first post, I meant that I've test the build of ar itself in various archs. Do you mean that I should use "BSD ar" to perform a "make world/universe", observing the process and examing the resulting library files generated? Yes. That's what I am doing now :) , but it takes time since "make universe" is not so fast on a slow laptop... From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:46:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9340C16A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:46:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@rucci.org) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEA113C442 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:46:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@rucci.org) Received: from izer.warganizer.com (ool-182dc652.dyn.optonline.net [24.45.198.82]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUJ007CIBMHDUP0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:15:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:15:53 -0500 From: Daniel Rucci In-reply-to: <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> To: Peter Schuller Message-id: <4788CB99.40305@rucci.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080112) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:11:00 +0000 Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:46:03 -0000 Peter Schuller wrote: > * The committer may not have access to the hardware, or may not have a > software setup that allows for testing. This means doing such testing > suddenly requires a lot more effort. Would it be possible to identify PRs which are related to specific hardware vs PRs which are not related to hardware? With respect to hardware specific PRs (Since these sound like they can be especially troublesome if the right hardware isn't in the right hands) - user A uploads his dmesg somewhere (if that output is enough) - user A also submits his email address and requests for notifications. - a hardware specific PR & Patch comes in with a committer who doesn't have the necessary hardware to test the patch - user A get a fun email stating the above with instructions on how he/she can help. - user A applys the patch and run the test case or whatever. - user A sends some feedback. - enough of this happens and the committer has more testing behind the patch; the set of all users with this hardware rejoice. Otherwise, I can't see how A can help out with these patches unless they are actively searching gnats for each piece of hardware they have. Meow, Dan From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 15:23:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B7516A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:23:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from relay02.kiev.sovam.com (relay02.kiev.sovam.com [62.64.120.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E022813C46A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:23:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from [212.82.216.226] (helo=deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua) by relay02.kiev.sovam.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JDiCO-000HZT-D2 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:23:09 +0200 Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0CFN37C057337; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:23:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0CFN3cm057336; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:23:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:23:03 +0200 From: Kostik Belousov To: Dominic Fandrey Message-ID: <20080112152303.GV57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5tYp7H6kQ0uP/7P1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Scanner-Signature: f2683d8df775da069012ccac6e6e6321 X-DrWeb-checked: yes X-SpamTest-Envelope-From: kostikbel@gmail.com X-SpamTest-Group-ID: 00000000 X-SpamTest-Info: Profiles 1977 [Jan 11 2008] X-SpamTest-Info: helo_type=3 X-SpamTest-Info: {TO: local part of email appears in body} X-SpamTest-Info: {received from trusted relay: not dialup} X-SpamTest-Method: none X-SpamTest-Method: Local Lists X-SpamTest-Rate: 9 X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Status-Extended: not_detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 3.0.0 [0255], KAS30/Release Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:23:10 -0000 --5tYp7H6kQ0uP/7P1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 10:26:12AM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: > Peter Schuller wrote: > > The second, possibly worse effect, is that the original submitter, I be= lieve,=20 > > is less inclined to spend more time in the future contributing, if said= =20 > > submitter feels the work is wasted because no one commits or even comme= nts on=20 > > the PR. >=20 > I can confirm this, one of our members started writing a new driver for t= he > ES1370 sound chip (following the hardware docs), because the current driv= er > has sampling rate and other issues (at least for this user) to this day. = To > see how commitments are received he sent a one-line patch for the existing > driver kern/98167. >=20 > It was never committed due to lack of further feedback from others and our > member stopped developing the driver. Since he explained his patch with > stating that the current implementation doesn't follow the HW-specs, I do= n't > think that further testing would have been required to commit it to a > developer branch like CURRENT or RELENG. Did you read the audit-trail ? I taken the patch, because I though that I have such card. After the truth revealed that I am not, I preferred to not broke support for somebody hardware. If there are other users of the same card, why do not they complain and test the patch ? --5tYp7H6kQ0uP/7P1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHiNtWC3+MBN1Mb4gRAklJAJ9BgrAtjG1FDsN2qu/GmcjUcr0nSQCg14rT v/yo+f84lbQJnfVkpYSLOEY= =plnE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5tYp7H6kQ0uP/7P1-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 15:42:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA94716A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:42:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6272013C465 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so883184uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:42:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=+4ynKMpFjqCaV3SNDDiLPyJA+7ObIrvaLzIgiR3K4vQ=; b=NUbRTB9wMtsdyZFxQS4CL17ubRv/ZMxft5LmCmBlrhG5ACPs6hjL6Y7ZR0xQLXQhF8RSrloLDsvrSL83+CJNNcWsVSUC4mIkn/Ew9Z0C8uOoKw/H8OwlntGlFIw7k+aF7rTAKmiVgaju8JKBbyNcscH8yWI+AoqhFIp7XFpPKWE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=UEMkTZfMniWoB/7B4lP38AvO+h63X+NjaYu06yvD5KiPU00EPpmWxHT+0sG0UYdKmaVBRdKWr06NRfeuAYpvhl6QWoImYa5/vjrJUm5y1s4i+Tp84I3a6WOrBZOwPM2b87QqOmEzajhYllqQTxpNyqtX9Toln3jPXwHt3vIKT1A= Received: by 10.67.116.18 with SMTP id t18mr1329711ugm.85.1200152568950; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:42:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:42:48 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Kostik Belousov" In-Reply-To: <20080112152303.GV57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <478887B4.9030906@bsdforen.de> <20080112152303.GV57756@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a69406b56dcb624a Cc: Dominic Fandrey , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:42:51 -0000 On 12/01/2008, Kostik Belousov wrote: > I taken the patch, because I though that > I have such card. After the truth revealed that I am not, I preferred to > not broke support for somebody hardware. If there are other users of the > same card, why do not they complain and test the patch ? This is fairly generic and doesn't necessarily just apply to your post, but here you expect the users to be *developers*; and while most people would happily try something pre-compiled, or at least merged into the source tree (so they can just do a make xxx), significantly fewer people would be wanting to experiment patching. Firstly you expect the users, most of whom are just trying the OS out, to dig through the PR database, then to patch the necessary files, configure their system (once they figure out how to edit the relevant KERNCONF file), and so on... Seriously, what's wrong with merging various patches into the source tree and surrounding them with #ifdef WITH_EXPERIMENTAL_CODE, or WITH_EXPERIMENTAL_(module name) and then allowing that in make.conf? At least that'll take the hassle of searching through PRs/mering... Alternative (for more advanced hackers) would be to have a dedicated page that lists various experimental patches categorized by module/subsystem/etc, which allows people to pull the experimental patches directly... Another alternative is to have a boolean flag on the PR so that the author can indicate that it's a patch and have the gnats mail a separate list of uncommitted patches separately to other open PRs? Igor From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 16:57:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8009D16A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC92A13C43E for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:57:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so893159uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:57:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=8NTy2s55JU50amS1F4whT0FjK2bF2HMMVp69lP5paYc=; b=T2FDxq9WycKV1GIajZA9iqHx2plNzVSMnUA5YQlfwPNxVCnUc0EB0V80UZD2aJRo0Y5NTQQw8MrqKzcSSqBUM+ofaGi6vimvU1mLEHEesQO8p6BwCezHPvmVlYLJk81mwKCPi9/SAY7f+Gr0+HBSzPik5RE5Eziw2uObabWXZao= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DGBbEtxqYkSdW9tN5EbE7ja2iXudDDKfk7ZsvTAoU7uecpeHMWcVUV8LC2JCgKm10bcYZ5raA95RgqLiRlWWHQOr3m+NCKbzLJlu193mZzzu5JJxfx6yIxUliYZl3jwEa4g9kNSSTrYdXYbyM2hgGrxVv65N6TUvQa45VWqvtGk= Received: by 10.66.254.19 with SMTP id b19mr196214ugi.7.1200157049530; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.219.18 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:57:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3aaaa3a0801120857v67085a04g61f8707dde3ff5ee@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:57:29 +0000 From: Chris To: "Garrett Cooper" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:57:31 -0000 > > I'd ldd libcrypt, libncurses, and libiconv, just to be sure.. > -Garrett > Results below. # ldd /lib/libncurses.so.7 /lib/libncurses.so.7: libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x2807f000) # ldd /lib/libcrypt.so.4 /lib/libcrypt.so.4: libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x2807f000) # ldd /lib/libc.so.7 /lib/libc.so.7: Compared it to another fbsd7 server (beta3) and they the same. Chris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 17:15:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E178316A41A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D2E13C448; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:15:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:15:44 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:15:47 -0000 Chris wrote: > bt shows this > > #0 0x00000000 in ?? () > #1 0x08057c65 in ?? () > #2 0x281f7b08 in in6addr_linklocal_allnodes () from /lib/libc.so.7 > #3 0x0808c120 in ?? () > #4 0x00000001 in ?? () > #5 0x0808c120 in ?? () > #6 0xbfbfed20 in ?? () > #7 0x00000001 in ?? () > #8 0xbfbfecd8 in ?? () > #9 0x0804bf7a in ?? () > #10 0x00000002 in ?? () > #11 0x0808c0c5 in ?? () > #12 0xbfbfeb48 in ?? () > #13 0x280988a6 in dlopen () from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty string). This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 17:26:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A30A16A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3907513C4D5 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDk7T-0004dK-3H for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:07 +0000 Received: from 78-0-75-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([78.0.75.255]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:07 +0000 Received: from ivoras by 78-0-75-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:07 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:25:51 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig37E3399616C266F199B6521A" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 78-0-75-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Sender: news Subject: Profiling still broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig37E3399616C266F199B6521A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Speaking of patches not getting committed for ages: I notice profiling=20 is still broken in RELENG_7 (cvsupped yesterday). Any news on this topic?= --------------enig37E3399616C266F199B6521A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiPglldnAQVacBcgRAj6fAJ41c5dy7XTtybFGJLMT/ubtndUSGgCgjmBW qAc40BJERkMBCHiRw8ZFGs0= =gYAp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig37E3399616C266F199B6521A-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 17:36:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE79A16A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:36:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384BE13C4F5 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:36:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so898425uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:36:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=CWnYuNoehrGd6KJ+bWNy6aErtLVDekSCyUIqgDLEWR0=; b=qA7iwkm7IVMhBhBaqbqzmiNBLE4qTGCJVI3PORRt1Dhofu4VMlldrDtztw27jCAObc5V6QiW6RSy6hhSuaLdSRd1s0zZ6ZeyALM5IzUKhf2Gj1olYFj7OduKyEkw16v+iDFmklyb7YSrFF3DFzmkjq+HMsozh2auTnOBGBs+kZM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CsaWBqmWSGd/x18FysfRRGePqUHV64+jAnYqGH0tpEJgdpmI7e1m8DPfLwfXnHSBOq1Tki7PVrqPLHvFA6j9M4AtmqyaUC3zCepmXUz+dAk+He07viKCSAVGRNTbxc5xuCwY3AWgr7N9UmNP9ycGCTcI4ym9NuTce67X4LWlEGo= Received: by 10.67.26.7 with SMTP id d7mr949007ugj.23.1200159367780; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.219.18 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:36:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3aaaa3a0801120936t73359e0fgc1c9415161304ba2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:36:07 +0000 From: Chris To: "Kris Kennaway" In-Reply-To: <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:36:09 -0000 > > That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the > libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty string). > This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. > > Kris > > > Ok new output Core was generated by `csh'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. Reading symbols from /lib/libncurses.so.7...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libncurses.so.7 Reading symbols from /lib/libcrypt.so.4...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libcrypt.so.4 Reading symbols from /lib/libc.so.7...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libc.so.7 Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so...done. Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libiconv.so Reading symbols from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1...done. Loaded symbols for /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 #0 0x00000000 in ?? () (gdb) bt #0 0x00000000 in ?? () #1 0x08057c65 in nlsinit () at /usr/src/bin/csh/../../contrib/tcsh/sh.func.c:2420 #2 0x0804bf7a in main (argc=1, argv=0xbfbfecfc) at /usr/src/bin/csh/../../contrib/tcsh/sh.c:194 looks more useful and I hope it is. Chris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 17:50:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B71A16A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:50:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C763013C467 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:50:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so900358uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:50:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=hx6lbA6HcNtMjRSzhBfSoskb4qVJvtcGAz4pVZZCC30=; b=I3DzLGFa4s0y9x9+oTEGGioAh/7LuwYDukioEeHXk6mtxbRCKQk/I+6SgCfbXZm+m3G8bpa9xmllGlCOaUvmwODa2UZ1UzP11oXfJ3KZDgRyburraml+VPvbSOJTtsMTvyIhBqTmat79uIsXQwjBG+dEIASmDyvQASc6aI+Ry4U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TwG5OJyqLNN420+FgPJe0cG2y+D5c9g3hQ2MoTyixpGopgpJLjLoZsvU+k4kr+SojAR++2MG/zG5Dju9Kq7/2YCVAi4eAcLOAcd9ilh5yWZ0O9qT4NZLy84ZtzWwj5/bCuhBF25AaPJxvO6opKRBfeHBqUn11E77KuTw5Yztwb0= Received: by 10.67.121.2 with SMTP id y2mr1425242ugm.78.1200160253624; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.219.18 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:50:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3aaaa3a0801120950o6b4c9a07x21632fd24d20888@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:50:53 +0000 From: Chris To: "Kris Kennaway" In-Reply-To: <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:50:55 -0000 > That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the > libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty string). > This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. > > Kris > > > Kris please halt this investigation and thanks for your time on this. when I did the 2nd bt I had noticed it was using the local iconv which incidently was installed by directadmin a 3rd party application, diectadmin usually causes no problems such as this but they have no freebsd7 specific version yet and whats happened is I installed the freebsd6 version and it in its installation script has installed some freebsd6 version of these packages one of them been iconv. I just recompiled iconv from ports and csh no longer crashes. I apologise for wasting your time on this issue. Chris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:13:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A1516A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39113C45A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) id m0CIDQZY024801; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:13:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:13:26 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20080112181325.GA97708@dan.emsphone.com> References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Chris , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:28 -0000 In the last episode (Jan 12), Kris Kennaway said: > That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the > libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty > string). This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. Setting DEBUG_FLAGS=-ggdb will do both at once, BTW. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:13:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F160F16A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB18913C447 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0CIDiSJ070763 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0CIDiZe070762 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:13:44 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080112181344.GA70692@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:13:44 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:21:38AM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:40:36AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:23:36PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > > > > > I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of > > > bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of > > > the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored > > > by Google SoC 2007 programme. > > > > > > You can find the tarball at: > > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz > > > > > > > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement > > for the current ar/? > > Then make buildworld? > This will possibly not work because you may need to turn off > the build of GNU ar first, which is not simple because the build of other > GNU tools may depend on the build of GNU ar. (I'm working on this) > > The recommended way is: (for now) > (instruction removed.) > > BTW: Please use the version I packed up today, which fixed two bugs > reported by swell.k[AT]gmail[Dot]com yesterday. > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080112.tgz Kai, I thought/knew there would be a delay between my post and your response, so I just tried building your ar outside of src/. It now resides in ${HOME}/bin. One thing I noticed is that it appears to have no support for the GNU long option names. At least, "ar --help" told me that it was an illegal option. Do you plan to add long option support? I suspect that this will be needed by the ports collection, and probably anything that uses libtool. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:23:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21FA16A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:23:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from smtp.infidyne.com (ds9.infidyne.com [88.80.6.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA4613C455 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:23:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: from c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (c-8216e555.03-51-73746f3.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [85.229.22.130]) by smtp.infidyne.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EDF7613A; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:23:52 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:24:02 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1532281.ZVzCsaMe5P"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200801121924.10694.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:23:54 -0000 --nextPart1532281.ZVzCsaMe5P Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline [not sure whether to remove -current from cc; keeping it for now] > So far it hasn't happened. We've set up the freebsd-bugbusters@ mailing > list and the #freebsd-bugbusters IRC channel on EFNet (and please join > us!) and the latter is where our last 2 bugathons took place. That's interesting. I'll try to get in on it. Perhaps this could use some m= ore=20 publicitly? Though I cannot claim I have gone out of my way to find exactly= =20 this, I was unaware of it in spite of spending quite a lot of time followin= g=20 =46reeBSD mailinglists. > Adding the second metric would cure one problem that you don't mention -- > which is that few people have the interest and patience to plow through > N-thousand PRs. It's not humanly possible to look at them all -- even > the new ones as they come in. There's simply too many. So, you create > an expectation "why bother, there's so many anyways". We need to break > that chain of expectation. A good fix is a good fix. The PR count will > never get to zero; I (with bugmaster hat on) would be thrilled if we can > get to the point of just steady-state. Perhaps if there was a good way to be sent a particular subset of PR:s? Unfortuantely the PR categories are not very granular. Something as simple = as=20 being able to subscribe to PR:s that match a regexp could work. My experience (albeight with a smaller bug database) is that generally, as= =20 soon as you expect people to manually poll some web site, things move more= =20 slowly. If you can manage a system where all the user has to do is process = is=20 mailbox, it becomes easier for all parties to get things done. In order for= =20 that to work, some method is need to minimize the amount of incoming E-Mail= =20 that the potential contributor is not interested in (otherwise you just get= =20 tired of weeding through it all). Also related to this: it may just be me, but how does GNATS even handle=20 mailouts to begin with? I always get the initial response from GNATS that a= =20 PR has been registered, but mostly I never see any automatic mailouts in=20 response to PR updates. I have not identifier exactly what is going on, but= =20 if other people are having this problem it might contribute to difficulty=20 getting feedback from users. Once again I tend to like the system where all= I=20 have to do is read my inbox, instead of manually keeping track of a list of= =20 PR:s I am somehow interested in. (This goes both from the POV of being an=20 original submitter, and from the POV of trying to process PR:s.) Also, individual users being able to add themselves as an interested party = (cc=20 in bugzilla speak, nosy in roundup speak, etc) to PR:s and such would help,= =20 or configure per-user settings for mailout, etc. I really don't want to start some kind of holy war on bug management softwa= re,=20 but I have to say that from the submitter POV I have always felt GNATS does= =20 not seem to be the most flexible system around (except for what seems to be= =20 very good E-Mail integration). > I think most get committed because a committer sees a PR come in on the > mailing list and grabs it. Much less often do committers go through the > database looking for things to fix. Again, the lousy "search/browse" > capabilities of the existing tool let us down here. That is exactly consistent with my experience in similar situations, and wh= at=20 I refer to above. =2D-=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --nextPart1532281.ZVzCsaMe5P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHiQXKDNor2+l1i30RAupyAKC70yFXuFAgwLATMplryTZnO26vUwCeNw5E ixsKyQoMLy8cxpZXPV2lBJo= =4Ugi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1532281.ZVzCsaMe5P-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:28:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7274016A421 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:28:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.76]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4BD13C465 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:28:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (asmtp001-s [10.150.69.64]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout013/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m0CISbK2021546; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from macbook-pro.jnpr.net (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/asmtp001/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m0CISavl004193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <62227BCE-7E5D-4027-B820-048D2526ED4B@mac.com> From: Marcel Moolenaar To: d@delphij.net In-Reply-To: <4788159A.2070703@delphij.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:28:35 -0800 References: <4788159A.2070703@delphij.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add 'label' to rescue/geom X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:28:42 -0000 On Jan 11, 2008, at 5:19 PM, Xin LI wrote: > Hi, > > I found that it might be useful to add 'label' to rescue/geom as well. > Attached is a patch to implement this. > > This adds ~80KB to rescue binary on FreeBSD/amd64. Feel free to commit. I think a lot of the functionality provided by geom(8) is good to have in rescue. The patch looks fine. FYI, -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:34:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1DE16A46D for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17EE13C46B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47890826.7020200@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:34:14 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> <3aaaa3a0801120950o6b4c9a07x21632fd24d20888@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3aaaa3a0801120950o6b4c9a07x21632fd24d20888@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:17 -0000 Chris wrote: >> That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the >> libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty string). >> This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. >> >> Kris >> >> >> > > Kris please halt this investigation and thanks for your time on this. > > when I did the 2nd bt I had noticed it was using the local iconv which > incidently was installed by directadmin a 3rd party application, > diectadmin usually causes no problems such as this but they have no > freebsd7 specific version yet and whats happened is I installed the > freebsd6 version and it in its installation script has installed some > freebsd6 version of these packages one of them been iconv. I just > recompiled iconv from ports and csh no longer crashes. I apologise > for wasting your time on this issue. OK, glad you solved the problem! Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 18:34:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370B716A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EE913C46B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47890849.7050007@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:34:49 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Nelson References: <3aaaa3a0801111919w138a5d77o201d0521b95d1e01@mail.gmail.com> <4788F5C0.4040409@FreeBSD.org> <20080112181325.GA97708@dan.emsphone.com> In-Reply-To: <20080112181325.GA97708@dan.emsphone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Chris , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: csh core dumping 7.0-rc1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:52 -0000 Dan Nelson wrote: > In the last episode (Jan 12), Kris Kennaway said: >> That backtrace is garbage, of course :) Try rebuilding csh and the >> libraries with CFLAGS+=-ggdb and STRIP= (i.e. set to the empty >> string). This will allow a meaningful backtrace when it crashes. > > Setting DEBUG_FLAGS=-ggdb will do both at once, BTW. > Thanks, nice shortcut :) Kris From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 19:27:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AE316A421 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7536613C458 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:27:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1738680fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.186.5 with SMTP id j5mr7933519buf.16.1200166021917; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.181.17 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:27:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:27:01 -0800 From: "Peter Wemm" To: "Steve Kargl" In-Reply-To: <20080112181344.GA70692@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080112181344.GA70692@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:27:06 -0000 On Jan 12, 2008 10:13 AM, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:21:38AM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:40:36AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:23:36PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > > > > > > > > I think it's time for "BSD ar" to get a public review after months of > > > > bug hunting and cleaning up done by jkoshy@ and me. The majority of > > > > the coding work was done during the summer of 2007 and was sponsored > > > > by Google SoC 2007 programme. > > > > > > > > You can find the tarball at: > > > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080111.tgz > > > > > > > > > > Do I drop the ar/ directory into src/usr.bin as a replacement > > > for the current ar/? > > > > Then make buildworld? > > This will possibly not work because you may need to turn off > > the build of GNU ar first, which is not simple because the build of other > > GNU tools may depend on the build of GNU ar. (I'm working on this) > > > > The recommended way is: (for now) > > > > (instruction removed.) > > > > > BTW: Please use the version I packed up today, which fixed two bugs > > reported by swell.k[AT]gmail[Dot]com yesterday. > > > > http://web.student.chalmers.se/~kaiw/patch/ar-20080112.tgz > > Kai, > > I thought/knew there would be a delay between my post and > your response, so I just tried building your ar outside > of src/. It now resides in ${HOME}/bin. > > One thing I noticed is that it appears to have no support > for the GNU long option names. At least, "ar --help" told > me that it was an illegal option. Do you plan to add long > option support? I suspect that this will be needed by the > ports collection, and probably anything that uses libtool. The gnu autoconf stuff never used to need long options... Yes, they'd sometimes detect 'GNU ld' etc, but it always used to work with standard unix args. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 21:04:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFD016A41B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:04:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AED713C455 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:04:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so1773165fgg.35 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:04:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=gvPaB7ueFEFVv33eEPFwvkzyXGCKDnQR6Uty0WhUPAI=; b=Y9xphIIVRsA1NsN3NeG3452HmL2gcV0oGjTRpBXZ3h+XV0WSaDieWCnY0/pk9nwpZNyfjwBn6jJ+Q0Hk7cO/47XD2rAvxRaIP7ljscbGDoTr7VEB/whRZ/UGTc9PHtZmpq/ZvRhFNRh4n5t2YapGvDPZDNBMpNqMdeUpWGwduVM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=WcSUyfhpn4bpljl/7/BEIArWcJ67IK1ewXQbdGkW1ldYaZJuV1fI1DcXpps5I30QGQNkZu8Zug4gSOxEEoyYBeLSqSXYBjcD0sf2qo8iTUf2H4LUH/YyU6ulYTJlbKbeMgzSLISKy5JW7AG4oJ3HhgAIQN31EG+ye/m93JvBFxk= Received: by 10.86.79.19 with SMTP id c19mr4453702fgb.31.1200171893973; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se ( [193.11.244.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i6sm3581971gve.5.2008.01.12.13.04.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 11CD6B849; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:04:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:04:46 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20080112210446.GB1154@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mail-Followup-To: Steve Kargl , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080112181344.GA70692@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112181344.GA70692@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:04:56 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 10:13:44AM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > I thought/knew there would be a delay between my post and > your response, so I just tried building your ar outside > of src/. It now resides in ${HOME}/bin. > > One thing I noticed is that it appears to have no support > for the GNU long option names. At least, "ar --help" told > me that it was an illegal option. Do you plan to add long > option support? I suspect that this will be needed by the > ports collection, and probably anything that uses libtool. Steve, Thank you for pointing out this. I just appended "add long option support" to my TODO list. We need this also because our goal is to maximize the compatibiliy with GNU ar. -- Kai From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 22:12:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B8616A46C for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:12:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from M.S.Powell@salford.ac.uk) Received: from abbe.salford.ac.uk (abbe.salford.ac.uk [146.87.0.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B64913C46A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:12:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from M.S.Powell@salford.ac.uk) Received: (qmail 55563 invoked by uid 98); 12 Jan 2008 21:45:40 +0000 Received: from 146.87.255.121 by abbe.salford.ac.uk (envelope-from , uid 401) with qmail-scanner-2.01 (clamdscan: 0.90/5425. spamassassin: 3.1.8. Clear:RC:1(146.87.255.121):. Processed in 0.067347 secs); 12 Jan 2008 21:45:40 -0000 Received: from rust.salford.ac.uk (HELO rust.salford.ac.uk) (146.87.255.121) by abbe.salford.ac.uk (qpsmtpd/0.3x.614) with SMTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:45:40 +0000 Received: (qmail 13121 invoked by uid 1002); 12 Jan 2008 21:45:37 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jan 2008 21:45:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:45:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "Mark Powell" To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, ivoras@FreeBSD.ORG, pjd@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <20080112214437.X10165@rust.salford.ac.uk> References: <200801081758.m08HwlOg076161@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Subject: Re: When will ZFS become stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:12:23 -0000 On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Oliver Fromme wrote: > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide > > It contains all the necessary information for both i386 and amd64 > machines. It can also easily be updated if necessary so people always > get the most up-to-date information. Pawel said in Nov: ----- > kern.maxvnodes: 400000 The Wiki should be changed. Allow ZFS to autotune it, don't tune it by hand. ----- Yet the wiki still recommends hand tuning? Cheers. -- Mark Powell - UNIX System Administrator - The University of Salford Information Services Division, Clifford Whitworth Building, Salford University, Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. Tel: +44 161 295 6843 Fax: +44 161 295 5888 www.pgp.com for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 22:33:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A7016A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F65413C467 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:33:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CMXZ9H007167; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:33:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CMXRNm040009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:33:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0CMXQsH095751; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:33:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0CMXQaF095750; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:33:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:33:26 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Kai Wang Message-ID: <20080112223326.GO79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <20080111142336.GA1379@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080111194036.GA28896@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20080112072138.GB1016@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> <20080112141201.GL79270@cicely12.cicely.de> <20080112143703.GA1748@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080112143703.GA1748@plan0.kaiwan.csbnet.se> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, ticso@cicely.de, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: [Call for testers] "BSD ar" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:33:38 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:37:03PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:12:02PM +0100, Bernd Walter wrote: > > But then it is only used for building the toolchain, not for building > > the world/universe itself. > > Did you try adding it into the toolchain for your make universe tests? > > I don't know how sensitive ar is to cross builds, but of course it is > > important for us to support cross builds. > > I mentioned that I've done "make universe" in the first post, I meant > that I've test the build of ar itself in various archs. > > Do you mean that I should use "BSD ar" to perform a "make world/universe", > observing the process and examing the resulting library files generated? Yes - that's what I ment. > Yes. That's what I am doing now :) , but it takes time since "make universe" > is not so fast on a slow laptop... Great. I can't await having another GPL tool being obsoleted :) -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 22:37:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58916A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:37:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=a7ab41728054147af81f90e783994d7ee44d543f=578=es.net=oberman@es.net) Received: from postal1.es.net (postal4.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:6000:1::66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6711D13C478 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=a7ab41728054147af81f90e783994d7ee44d543f=578=es.net=oberman@es.net) Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [198.128.4.29]) by postal4.es.net (Postal Node 4) with ESMTP (SSL) id SXX21254; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:54 -0800 Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [127.0.0.1]) by ptavv.es.net (Tachyon Server) with ESMTP id A193F4500E; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:52 -0800 (PST) To: Maxim Sobolev In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:27:46 PST." <478930D2.90806@digifonica.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_1200177472_52929P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:52 -0800 From: "Kevin Oberman" Message-Id: <20080112223752.A193F4500E@ptavv.es.net> X-Sender-IP: 198.128.4.29 X-Sender-Domain: es.net X-Recipent: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; X-Sender: X-To_Name: Maxim Sobolev X-To_Domain: digifonica.com X-To: Maxim Sobolev X-To_Email: sobomax@digifonica.com X-To_Alias: sobomax Cc: njl@FreeBSD.ORG, bruno@FreeBSD.ORG, Stefan Lambrev , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, Igor Mozolevsky , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:37:57 -0000 --==_Exmh_1200177472_52929P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:27:46 -0800 > From: Maxim Sobolev > > I wonder if somebody did measurement of power consumption with powerd > and without it on typical tasks. There is very interesting idea in the > last issue of ACM Queue that it might be much more beneficial to run CPU > at the full speed and then switch it to low-power mode as soon as > possible in the idle loop than to run longer at reduced speed for a > longer period of time. Now that you mention it, I did do this back when powerd first appeared. My results lead me to believe the Queue article is likely correct. Here is a summary of my results: 1. Of course, powerd does nothing during processor intensive operations. 2. For many interactive operations such as editing/word processing, spreadsheets, reading mail, and the like, the savings from speedstep were fairly significant. 3. For moderate CPU utilization tasks such as playing music (mp3), the savings from speedstep can be very significant. This was the spot where powerd did the best, but I could beat it by doing manual settings. 4. Throttling/TCC were often counter-productive. TCC did slightly better than throttling, but i simply disable both. Playing music with TCC showed a steady deterioration in power consumption as TCC was applied more aggressively. I will try to find my test results. They were done on an IBM T30 about three years ago and I may not find them now. This system had only speedstep and I suspect ESS will do much better. If I have time, I will try some tests with my current T43 and, maybe a T61 to which I have access. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 --==_Exmh_1200177472_52929P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 06/03/2002 iD8DBQFHiUFAkn3rs5h7N1ERAlNVAKCUgTt1uqgr3PP8sA33KCSg3XeLmQCfRJrD F+I2sk9GuQ2sTrsiwp3nFkk= =QV18 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_1200177472_52929P-- From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 22:57:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2C216A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:57:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nate@root.org) Received: from root.org (root.org [67.118.192.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCA213C44B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:57:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nate@root.org) Received: (qmail 12741 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2008 22:30:39 -0000 Received: from ppp-71-139-9-226.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO ?10.0.5.18?) (nate-mail@71.139.9.226) by root.org with ESMTPA; 12 Jan 2008 22:30:39 -0000 Message-ID: <47893F8B.7010805@root.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:30:35 -0800 From: Nate Lawson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071122) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Fix for GPE livelock on HPs X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:57:19 -0000 I've committed the below patch and want to MFC it to 7.0. To do this, I need people to test this quickly. It probably has no effect in 6.x and probably doesn't apply cleanly there. Please try this patch if you have a laptop and 7.x. If you have -current, just cvsup. I'd like to make sure there is no regression. I'm already aware that it fixes things for some HP users. Thanks for your time, Nate -------- Original Message -------- Subject: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd OsdSchedule.c src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica evgpe.c Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:13:18 +0000 (UTC) From: Nate Lawson To: njl@FreeBSD.ORG njl 2008-01-12 22:13:12 UTC FreeBSD src repository Modified files: sys/dev/acpica/Osd OsdSchedule.c Modified files: (Branch: INTEL) sys/contrib/dev/acpica evgpe.c Log: Fix GPE livelock that occurs on HP/Compaq laptops, mostly in the thermal zone code. The GPE handler method (i.e. _L00) generates various Notify events that need to be run to completion before the GPE is re-enabled. In ACPI-CA, we queue an asynch callback at the same priority as a Notify so that it will only run after all Notify handlers have completed. The callback re-enables the GPE afterwards. We also changed the priority of Notifies to be the same as GPEs, given the possibility that another GPE could arrive before the Notifies have completed and we don't want it to get queued ahead of the rest. The ACPI-CA change was submitted by Alexey Starikovskiy (SUSE) and will appear in a later release. Special thanks to him for helping track this bug down. MFC after: 1 week Tested by: jhb, Yousif Hassan Revision Changes Path 1.1.1.13 +19 -3 src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c 1.40 +7 -3 src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c Index: src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c diff -u src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c:1.1.1.12 src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c:1.1.1.13 --- src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c:1.1.1.12 Thu Mar 22 17:23:30 2007 +++ src/sys/contrib/dev/acpica/evgpe.c Sat Jan 12 22:13:12 2008 @@ -123,6 +123,10 @@ /* Local prototypes */ +static void +AcpiEvAsynchEnableGpe ( + void *Context); + static void ACPI_SYSTEM_XFACE AcpiEvAsynchExecuteGpeMethod ( void *Context); @@ -684,14 +688,26 @@ } } - if ((LocalGpeEventInfo.Flags & ACPI_GPE_XRUPT_TYPE_MASK) == + /* Defer enabling of GPE until all notify handlers are done */ + AcpiOsExecute(OSL_NOTIFY_HANDLER, AcpiEvAsynchEnableGpe, GpeEventInfo); + return_VOID; +} + +static void +AcpiEvAsynchEnableGpe ( + void *Context) +{ + ACPI_GPE_EVENT_INFO *GpeEventInfo = (void *) Context; + ACPI_STATUS Status; + + if ((GpeEventInfo->Flags & ACPI_GPE_XRUPT_TYPE_MASK) == ACPI_GPE_LEVEL_TRIGGERED) { /* * GPE is level-triggered, we clear the GPE status bit after * handling the event. */ - Status = AcpiHwClearGpe (&LocalGpeEventInfo); + Status = AcpiHwClearGpe (GpeEventInfo); if (ACPI_FAILURE (Status)) { return_VOID; @@ -700,7 +716,7 @@ /* Enable this GPE */ - (void) AcpiHwWriteGpeEnableReg (&LocalGpeEventInfo); + (void) AcpiHwWriteGpeEnableReg (GpeEventInfo); return_VOID; } Index: src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c diff -u src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c:1.39 src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c:1.40 --- src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c:1.39 Thu Mar 22 18:16:41 2007 +++ src/sys/dev/acpica/Osd/OsdSchedule.c Sat Jan 12 22:13:12 2008 @@ -106,6 +106,13 @@ at->at_context = Context; switch (Type) { case OSL_GPE_HANDLER: + case OSL_NOTIFY_HANDLER: + /* + * Run GPEs and Notifies at the same priority. This allows + * Notifies that are generated by running a GPE's method (e.g., _L00) + * to not be pre-empted by a later GPE that arrives during the + * Notify handler execution. + */ pri = 10; break; case OSL_GLOBAL_LOCK_HANDLER: @@ -113,9 +120,6 @@ case OSL_EC_BURST_HANDLER: pri = 5; break; - case OSL_NOTIFY_HANDLER: - pri = 3; - break; case OSL_DEBUGGER_THREAD: pri = 0; break; From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 23:09:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D569516A418 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:09:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nate@root.org) Received: from root.org (root.org [67.118.192.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FE113C442 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:09:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nate@root.org) Received: (qmail 15765 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2008 22:42:54 -0000 Received: from ppp-71-139-9-226.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO ?10.0.5.18?) (nate-mail@71.139.9.226) by root.org with ESMTPA; 12 Jan 2008 22:42:54 -0000 Message-ID: <47894263.6010706@root.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:42:43 -0800 From: Nate Lawson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071122) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Lambrev References: <200801110909.m0B99tlr097501@lurza.secnetix.de> <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> In-Reply-To: <47873840.7050401@moneybookers.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bruno@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:09:33 -0000 Stefan Lambrev wrote: > Hi, > > Oliver Fromme wrote: >> Andrew Atrens wrote: >> > # cvs diff -u acpi_perf.c >> > Index: acpi_perf.c >> > =================================================================== >> > RCS file: /usr/repo/freebsd/src/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_perf.c,v >> > retrieving revision 1.26 >> > diff -u -r1.26 acpi_perf.c >> > - --- acpi_perf.c 22 Mar 2007 18:16:40 -0000 1.26 >> > +++ acpi_perf.c 16 Nov 2007 20:11:02 -0000 >> > @@ -300,9 +300,9 @@ >> > continue; >> > > /* Check for duplicate entries */ >> > - - if (count > 0 && >> > - - sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq == >> > - - sc->px_states[count].core_freq) >> > + if (count > 0 && >> > + CPUFREQ_CMP(sc->px_states[count - 1].core_freq, >> > + sc->px_states[count].core_freq)) >> > continue; >> > > count++; >> > > > It's so simple that it's kind of silly that it (or something >> like it) >> > hasn't been committed yet... >> > > Anyone out there with a commit bit interested in submitting this ? >> >> It seems that nobody is responsible for those things right >> now (or nobody feels responsible). My PR bin/115513 is >> also still open. I'm using that patch for a long time >> already and wouldn't want to live without it; it improves >> interactive behaviour a lot on my notebook with powerd. >> > I really hope someone will commit this before 7.0 release, or it will > never be part of RELENG_7_0 > and not everyone want to track RELENG_7. > > While still here any idea how to make powerd to not lower cpufreq under > let's say 1000HZ? > I want to manually set the allowed minimum, because my laptop is lagging > too much under certain speeds. > > P.S. Nate Lawson & Bruno Ducrot CCed. They are pointed as tech contacts > for powerd on the pages that I found :) I am not sure this patch should be committed as-is. It might be better centralized in the cpufreq mid-layer so that all drivers benefit instead of just acpi_perf. If there are frequencies that are too close to each other (no matter what the source driver), it might be good to eliminate them. I'll look into it later today. -Nate From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 23:26:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F5416A419 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:26:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99E813C45A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so947252uge.37 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:26:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=K/338RvCIQnRBy7zFnrB1TtLSpRzrLo9O/dzyXboStE=; b=IEijyE4gn4blnkxeTCMGTHJJBOaNp7CBC82BLZcvG//oGTUfZj6kuy3/08UMmDD1xhInNIRsllRDoxtXa8/DwxMzMt36SZ1UxhkHyh9lCcrzSWCNaLehFGTbquiZMxr63KJYyq4pFjH+aks7wYnR3RGf5BdWAa893b3HA0/AIxY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rw6o8t0t8D/c3qCRg0nriTCDs6q1pEH35ZeIGJsaB+ZPxUDm8bcbFEyEyQg+sB2pw+jqvZyC41ecDFEpsO1dcPF663UfNrWPZb74gpoEe8Mc9bPci9RptfjTdPc7dM1Os9JMQE9g4Yi42YQZs1rJHwxmNwgGUBJyzcd702sWBgQ= Received: by 10.66.240.12 with SMTP id n12mr1227722ugh.9.1200180407244; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:26:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:26:47 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Maxim Sobolev" In-Reply-To: <478930D2.90806@digifonica.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080111181344.5E7244500E@ptavv.es.net> <478930D2.90806@digifonica.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6e3af68919fe2b43 Cc: njl@freebsd.org, bruno@freebsd.org, Stefan Lambrev , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: powerd adaptive mode latching X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:26:49 -0000 On 12/01/2008, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > I wonder if somebody did measurement of power consumption with powerd > and without it on typical tasks. There is very interesting idea in the > last issue of ACM Queue that it might be much more beneficial to run CPU > at the full speed and then switch it to low-power mode as soon as > possible in the idle loop than to run longer at reduced speed for a > longer period of time. That's a pretty neat idea, and will certainly get rid of the polling issue. The scheduler could scale the cpu clock, but I presume it would require some hacking effort... Igor