From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 09:14:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA03267 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03262 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.4/8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01516; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.4/8.7) id MAA10331; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:14:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:14:12 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: Charles Green cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-Reply-To: <199603030506.AAA21311@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Charles Green wrote: > Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: > } > } I wasn't being fascetious. You define what you actually mean by your > } reference to SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION, then you can get an answer. > > Actually that was a cut and paste off of > http://www.xopen.co.uk/public/tech/unix/overview.htm > The technical specification for UNIX (as they refer to it :-) > > } I'm > } horrible at names, but I think I've seen yours before; I wasn't sure, so > > Yeah I've been hanging around and throwing my two cents worth every > once and awhile. > > } I gave you an answer I would give to an absolute newbie. You know as > } well as I there isn't any one true unix yet. If this wasn't flamebait, > } and you still want an answer, be more specific and you might get one. > > The truth is, I was fishing to see what kind of answer I would > get. How much and what kind of opinions such a tearse question might > generate. > > } > } My personal gripe is actually the lack of the SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION. > } It's generally conceded that this lack is unixland's biggest failing. > } > X/Open seem to think they have one. But again I'm not too familiar > with the politics involved. But I would like to see FreeBSD branded with > the official UNIX name. Rather that UN*X-like... Now that we have all the initial misunderstandings past, you know, I can really agree with you. The reason that I went with FreeBSD initially over Linux was quite specifically because FreeBSD had a standard to cleave to, while it seemed that Linux was ruled by mob order. Now, I'm not innocent enough to say that BSD 4.4 is my ideal standard, written as it is more by example than spec, but it does serve in this instance as a spec. There has been lots of attention given to trying to keep FreeBSD Posix compliant, even in those cases where this might be construed as requiring pathological behavior on FreeBSD's part. I appreciate your URL reference above to the standards WEB page, I haven't looked at it yet, but I will. Are you suggesting that FreeBSD make some additional effort towards satisfying another technical spec? Which one? ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 09:17:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA03452 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03447 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.4/8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01568; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.4/8.7) id MAA10368; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:17:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:17:16 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Charles Green , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-Reply-To: <485.825830358@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > X/Open seem to think they have one. But again I'm not too familiar > > with the politics involved. But I would like to see FreeBSD branded with > > the official UNIX name. Rather that UN*X-like... > > Brother, can you spare approximately $90,000? :-) > > That's about what it will initially cost for the validations suites > alone, plus a $50K/year contract to keep it active. And the per-copy > royalties for each and every copy sold as "UNIX" - that could easily > run another $50K, depending. > > Trust me, I've talked with X/Open a fair bit about this, and I've done > my best to explain the uniqueness of our situation. To date, however, > their prices remain unchanged and thus so also does our "UNIX" brand > status. The money for validation I can understand, if not sympathize with. The royalties cost, that seems without justification. Do you think there'd be any chance that BSDi might go that way? > > > Jordan > ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 10:41:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA06561 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA06556 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26454; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:41:33 -0800 (PST) To: Chuck Robey cc: Charles Green , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Mar 1996 12:17:16 EST." Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 10:41:33 -0800 Message-ID: <26452.825878493@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > The money for validation I can understand, if not sympathize with. The > royalties cost, that seems without justification. Yep, especially (as I put it to X/Open) since it penalizes us for doing exactly what we exist for doing, namely shipping out as many copies of the software as possible. > Do you think there'd be any chance that BSDi might go that way? At the current prices that X/Open is asking? I seriously doubt it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 12:04:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA10725 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10705 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA13370; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 15:03:34 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603032003.PAA13370@server.id.net> Subject: Re: UNIX Specification To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 15:03:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu, chuck@fang.cs.sunyit.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <26452.825878493@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 3, 96 10:41:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > The money for validation I can understand, if not sympathize with. The > > royalties cost, that seems without justification. > > Yep, especially (as I put it to X/Open) since it penalizes us for > doing exactly what we exist for doing, namely shipping out as many > copies of the software as possible. > > > Do you think there'd be any chance that BSDi might go that way? > > At the current prices that X/Open is asking? I seriously doubt it. Have you seen the current BSDI pricing? $995 for binary license, and $2995 for source license... -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 12:26:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA11607 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11602 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00265; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:25:17 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Shady cc: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu, chuck@fang.cs.sunyit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Mar 1996 15:03:33 EST." <199603032003.PAA13370@server.id.net> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 12:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <263.825884717@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > At the current prices that X/Open is asking? I seriously doubt it. > > Have you seen the current BSDI pricing? $995 for binary license, and > $2995 for source license... That's expensive, yes, but consider that nobody really wants *anything* to cut into their profit margins, so I still see it as unlikely that BSDI is going to want to give up a substantial chunk of change to X/Open. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 3 23:19:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA08865 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA08844 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA03174; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:18:51 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA03450; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:19:00 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id RAA05421; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:42:55 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603021642.RAA05421@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: OK, so what would YOU like to see on that second CD? To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:42:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199602270951.KAA22510@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 27, 96 10:47:58 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > > ... and how about a kitchen-sink ? > > That's included with Emacs. Nope. Emacs had to give it away recently to NetCrap. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 00:20:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA11440 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz401.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz401.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA11434 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz401.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA06681 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:20:36 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA03917 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:20:35 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id IAA09685 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:53:34 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603040753.IAA09685@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: your mail To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:53:34 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "invalid opcode" at Mar 1, 96 11:37:24 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As invalid opcode wrote: > > Can't be... main() ain't void in C++. Shall we discusss the virutues of > > "void main()"??? Anybody seen the comp.lang.c T-shirts with the slash > b: void main(), void main( void ), i use void main( void ) even in C++. void main() is nonsense, in particular in environments that use the return value from main. main() is of type `int' by definition. The behaviour of a type clash void <-> int is undefined (to the best of my knowledge). The behaviour of #pragma is undefined, too, and gcc used to launch `nethack' for some time when it saw a #pragma. This was in full accordance with the standard. :-)) Go to comp.lang.c with your void main(), and see how you'll be bombed. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 01:57:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA17314 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17302 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id BAA18173; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:55:51 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199603040753.IAA09685@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > Go to comp.lang.c with your void main(), and see how you'll be > bombed. ;) > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE I don't generally deal with fanatics =) == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 06:45:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA04067 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 06:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA04050 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 06:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.DIALix.oz.au (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00298 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:44:48 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199603041444.WAA00298@jhome.DIALix.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: jhome.DIALix.COM: Host peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Build numbers! :-) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 22:44:48 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Finally hit the 300 mark: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #300: Mon Mar 4 22:00:29 WST 1996 peter@jhome.DIALix.COM:/home/src/sys/compile/JHOME (But who's counting anyway.. :-) -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 08:21:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA12708 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA12697 Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:21:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603041621.IAA12697@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: UNIX Specification To: chuck@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Charles Green) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:20:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603030506.AAA21311@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> from "Charles Green" at Mar 3, 96 00:06:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > } reference to SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION, then you can get an answer. > > Actually that was a cut and paste off of > http://www.xopen.co.uk/public/tech/unix/overview.htm ^^^^^^!!! > The technical specification for UNIX (as they refer to it :-) xopen is a unix organization? with 8.3 filenames? surely this is a gates ploy to extend his bid for world contamination From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 4 14:47:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA05085 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from foot.cst.com.au (foot.cst.com.au [137.109.64.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05078 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tim@localhost) by foot.cst.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.11) id JAA25215 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:47:07 +1100 From: Tim Liddelow Message-Id: <199603042247.JAA25215@foot.cst.com.au> Subject: Updated repo patch for gcc-2.7.2 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:47:05 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Distribution: world Newsgroups: gnu.g++.help Followup-To: From: tim@cst.com.au (Tim Liddelow) Reply-To: tim@cst.com.au Organization: Creative Software Technologies Subject: Updated repo patch for gcc-2.7.2 for *BSD Keywords: I have made some small modifications to the Cygnus repo patch and tested it on FreeBSD. It should also work on NetBSD and BSDI. This patch correctly groks the output from ld and recompiles/relinks as it should. You can obtain the patch from: ftp://ftp.cst.com.au/pub/gcc-2.7.2-repo-bsd.gz Cheers Tim Liddelow -- ================================================================================ ! Tim Liddelow (http://www.cst.com.au/~tim) _--_|\ ! ! Software Engineer / Systems Administrator / \ ! ! Creative Software Technologies \_.--.*/ ! ! Phone: +61 3 9587 1444 UNIX, C++/OOP, C, X11, v ! ! email: tim@cst.com.au Networking, WWW, consulting ! !=============================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 19:42:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA17404 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17397 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id WAA12651; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:39:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:39:58 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Terry Lambert cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: Triton-II support... when? In-Reply-To: <199603062313.QAA12120@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > The top-end ASUS Pentium Pro motherboard uses a bridge to achieve > > this, as does the PowerMac 9500. Neither will take the current design > > of Pentium processors, however. > > And this is a bad thing? 8-) 8-). I'd *love* to run the 9500 hardware (for instance) here, if someone would just write a decent operating system for it (and don't anyone dare bring up the Linux "personality" for the OSF microkernel that Apple is porting!) *8-O -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 6 23:21:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA14135 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14129 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18829; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:21:15 -0800 (PST) To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 1996 22:50:43 PST." <199603070650.WAA10366@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:21:14 -0800 Message-ID: <18826.826183274@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > I guess politics is part of the package when the Internet is so much > on the spotlight :( I think this actually belongs in FreeBSD-chat, given that it's a purely political issue with no clear "right side." Sure, we don't want people regulating the kind of data we can send over the internet, but at the same time I hardly want the backbone saturated with a million teen-age Windows users who are using IPHONE to get around long-distance rates and have marathon phone conversations about dating or whether DETHMETAL is a better group than EARSLAYER. That would be an utter catastrophy, and if you think that network response is bad now, well you ain't seen nothing yet! Given a choice over supporting the authors of VON software or preserving some modicum of interactive response for our developers who only want their keystrokes to come back on the same day they type them, well, it's pretty hard to say. This isn't the CDA again, this is a lot of people trying to get something for nothing. Either way, it's political and not technical, so please redirect to chat, thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 00:10:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA17285 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17280 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA10784; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:09:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199603070809.AAA10784@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:21:14 PST." <18826.826183274@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 00:09:53 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Your worst internet bandwith polluter is Win95 8) Voice data streams tend to be relatively low bandwith compared to lets say net browsing or downloading images. What is good in the sense of net bandwith misuse with respect to audio is that if the network is not fast people get to be very annoyed at the audio effects 8) Amancio >>> "Jordan K. Hubbard" said: > > I guess politics is part of the package when the Internet is so much > > on the spotlight :( > > I think this actually belongs in FreeBSD-chat, given that it's a > purely political issue with no clear "right side." > > Sure, we don't want people regulating the kind of data we can send > over the internet, but at the same time I hardly want the backbone > saturated with a million teen-age Windows users who are using IPHONE > to get around long-distance rates and have marathon phone > conversations about dating or whether DETHMETAL is a better group than > EARSLAYER. That would be an utter catastrophy, and if you think that > network response is bad now, well you ain't seen nothing yet! > > Given a choice over supporting the authors of VON software or > preserving some modicum of interactive response for our developers who > only want their keystrokes to come back on the same day they type > them, well, it's pretty hard to say. This isn't the CDA again, this > is a lot of people trying to get something for nothing. > > Either way, it's political and not technical, so please redirect to > chat, thanks! > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 09:44:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA24739 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24734 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA14227; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:39:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603071739.KAA14227@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Triton-II support... when? To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:39:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 7, 96 10:39:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > The top-end ASUS Pentium Pro motherboard uses a bridge to achieve > > > this, as does the PowerMac 9500. Neither will take the current design > > > of Pentium processors, however. > > > > And this is a bad thing? 8-) 8-). > > I'd *love* to run the 9500 hardware (for instance) here, if > someone would just write a decent operating system for it (and don't > anyone dare bring up the Linux "personality" for the OSF microkernel > that Apple is porting!) *8-O The PCI code needs fixed for this, assuming you could even get hardware documentation at all. The PCI is assumed to be bridged from ISA, which is not what is happening for this hardware. BTW: Apple uses their own custom PCI bridge in this thing, they don't use the Motorolla bridge, so you'd need to get docs for that, too. 8-|. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 11:02:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00520 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [192.216.222.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00515 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA09806 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:02:01 -0800 Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA13924; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:59:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199603071859.KAA13924@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:18:03 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:59:47 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >>> Chuck Robey said: > On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > > I guess politics is part of the package when the Internet is so much > > on the spotlight :( > > > > Amancio > > > > [huge 'Voice On Net' article deleted] > > The point being, if use of the internet stopped being an experiemental > tool and became one tenth as popular as, say, the web browsers, the > internet would stop being useful as a communications medium. The > bandwidth ain't there, and if it was, the swithcing point bandwidth isn't > there either. The internet isn't a viable option for massive replacement > of our telephone network. It's fine for experimenters, and I've been one > of them, but if it stopped being experimental, and everybody joined in, > this would be a disaster. Voice is just one data type. One incurs far more bandwith with downloading images, files, etc... I think that people are being paranoid for starters many are still not even connected on the Internet;however, this figure may change in the near future. By far the worst Internet polluter has got to be those zillions of Win95 users and AT&T now providing Internet services. One would hope that if AT&T is going to provide Internet Services that they can also support their own infrastructure which happens to support much of the Internet backbone infra structure. The Internet is not a real-time delivery network any attempt to massively use it as such will just simply fail. People can tolerate slight delays on ftp packets, or downloading images but when it comes to sound and to a lesser extent live video they get quickly irritated. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:01:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04214 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04209 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01967; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:03:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:03:33 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603072003.NAA01967@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-Reply-To: <199603071859.KAA13924@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199603071859.KAA13924@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty, Jr. writes: > > [huge 'Voice On Net' article deleted] > > > > The point being, if use of the internet stopped being an experiemental > > tool and became one tenth as popular as, say, the web browsers, the > > internet would stop being useful as a communications medium. > > Voice is just one data type. One incurs far more bandwith with > downloading images, files, etc... That's bursty bandwidth. Voice takes up bandwidth fairly at a fairly constant rate. > By far the worst Internet polluter has got to be those zillions > of Win95 users and AT&T now providing Internet services. No, they aren't 'polluting' the Internet any more than you are, and in actuality they are using up much less BW than you are. However, there are lots more of them. > One would hope that if AT&T is going to provide Internet Services that > they can also support their own infrastructure which happens to support > much of the Internet backbone infra structure. Why should you deserve any more BW on the backbone than a new user like my father? Just because you were there first doesn't mean he has as much right to use video/audio tools as you do. > The Internet is not a real-time delivery network any attempt to > massively use it as such will just simply fail. People can tolerate > slight delays on ftp packets, or downloading images but when it comes > to sound and to a lesser extent live video they get quickly irritated. So should we expect the MBONE to go away since it's neither feasible nor useful to the general public? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:19:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA05354 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05349 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14436; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:18:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199603072018.MAA14436@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Nate Williams cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 1996 13:03:33 MST." <199603072003.NAA01967@rocky.sri.MT.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:18:24 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >>> Nate Williams said: > Amancio Hasty, Jr. writes: > > > [huge 'Voice On Net' article deleted] > > > > > > The point being, if use of the internet stopped being an experiemental > > > tool and became one tenth as popular as, say, the web browsers, the > > > internet would stop being useful as a communications medium. > > > > Voice is just one data type. One incurs far more bandwith with > > downloading images, files, etc... > > That's bursty bandwidth. Voice takes up bandwidth fairly at a fairly > constant rate. Voice does not demand constant bandwith on the internet;rather, the internet delivers or tries to deliver a constant rate. A subtle difference however a key one. You have to define "bursty" here is only a matter of time before large system distributions such as freebsd become widely available on the internet as a matter of fact IUMA with their huge mpeg distribution is a good example of a *huge* repository for the masses. > > By far the worst Internet polluter has got to be those zillions > > of Win95 users and AT&T now providing Internet services. > > No, they aren't 'polluting' the Internet any more than you are, and in > actuality they are using up much less BW than you are. However, there > are lots more of them. Okay, they are not polluters no more than voice oriented apps. My point is that all of the sudden we are dumping a huge user base into the Internet and that we should be more concerned as to how to support them rather than voice or video which represents a tiny fraction of the user base. So how come we are not hearing a big complain about the new rapidly emerging user base??? > > One would hope that if AT&T is going to provide Internet Services that > > they can also support their own infrastructure which happens to support > > much of the Internet backbone infra structure. > > Why should you deserve any more BW on the backbone than a new user like > my father? Just because you were there first doesn't mean he has as > much right to use video/audio tools as you do. The gating factor today is how much am I willing to pay for my bandwith 8) > > The Internet is not a real-time delivery network any attempt to > > massively use it as such will just simply fail. People can tolerate > > slight delays on ftp packets, or downloading images but when it comes > > to sound and to a lesser extent live video they get quickly irritated. > > So should we expect the MBONE to go away since it's neither feasible nor > useful to the general public? The MBONE is feasible and is probably the only generally available mechanism to deploy audio / video. If you are interested more on the MBONE please do a net search on the topic . Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:36:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA06395 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06317 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA02181; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:38:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:38:22 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603072038.NAA02181@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-Reply-To: <199603072018.MAA14436@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199603072003.NAA01967@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603072018.MAA14436@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > > > Voice is just one data type. One incurs far more bandwith with > > > downloading images, files, etc... > > > > That's bursty bandwidth. Voice takes up bandwidth fairly at a fairly > > constant rate. > > Voice does not demand constant bandwith on the internet;rather, the > internet delivers or tries to deliver a constant rate. To have a conversation of any kind requires that either one person or the other is talking *most* of the time. This means that the bandwidth is being use *most* of the time, irregardless of the implementation. Compare this to downloading web pages. When you first download the page, you will incur a BW hit, but even so if a person wants to actually *use* the data sent to them, they won't constantly be asking for more data every 2-3 seconds (except for those rare folks who can read and/or understand information exceptionally fast). These aren't issues of implmentation, but simply usage facts. When you talk on the phone, you tend to use more 'bandwidth' due to it's somewhat real-time nature than when you download any static data. > as freebsd become widely available on the internet as a matter > of fact IUMA with their huge mpeg distribution is a good example > of a *huge* repository for the masses. That's irrelevant. It's still static data that is generally downloaded once, and then used for it's intended purpose. Telephony data can't be re-used for the simple fact that 10 seconds after the data has been sent it is no longer valid as new data has superceded it. (This is looking at the data from a statistical point of view vs. a users point of view). > > > > By far the worst Internet polluter has got to be those zillions > > > of Win95 users and AT&T now providing Internet services. > > > > No, they aren't 'polluting' the Internet any more than you are, and in > > actuality they are using up much less BW than you are. However, there > > are lots more of them. > > Okay, they are not polluters no more than voice oriented apps. My > point is that all of the sudden we are dumping a huge user base > into the Internet and that we should be more concerned as to how > to support them rather than voice or video which represents a tiny > fraction of the user base. Except that the voice and video users are using up a *HUGE* portion of the total bandwidth used in comparison to the # of users. A voice user uses up at least an order of magnitude more BW than a non-audio user. So, we should outlaw audio on the Internet in order to support an order of magniture more people than we are currently. And, if we outlaw video users we'll get 3-4X the amount of users. (Again, these numbers are completely bogus, but you can understand why outlawing them is actually considered). > So how come we are not hearing a big complain about the new rapidly > emerging user base??? The only folks complaining about the rapidly emerging user base are those folks who want it to be 'like it used to'. If you've got nothing to compare it to, then you have nothing to complain about. > > > One would hope that if AT&T is going to provide Internet Services that > > > they can also support their own infrastructure which happens to support > > > much of the Internet backbone infra structure. > > > > Why should you deserve any more BW on the backbone than a new user like > > my father? Just because you were there first doesn't mean he has as > > much right to use video/audio tools as you do. > > The gating factor today is how much am I willing to pay for my > bandwith 8) You are paying money to your ISP, who doesn't support the backbone directly. Does that mean if I get a T1, I should be able to use a T1's portion of the backbone at all hours of the day? That'd be like telling the U.S. government that they must build you a bridge to your new house on the other side of the river because you bought a GM car. Just because GM (your ISP) gives you the ability to be on the roads (Internet) doesn't mean the people who build the roads (backbone) are responsible to give you the bridge (BW) you want. (Lame example, I know, but it's the best I could come up with on short notice). > > So should we expect the MBONE to go away since it's neither feasible nor > > useful to the general public? > > The MBONE is feasible and is probably the only generally available > mechanism to deploy audio / video. If you are interested more on the > MBONE please do a net search on the topic . The MBONE is far and away *NOT* the only mechanism to do A/V. Most of the folks doing commercial implementation require 30kpbs (I just did research into this topic for work) to do Audio/Video/White-Board. That's a *heck* of alot less than MBONE. The Mbone was designed to show that A/V on WAN was possible, but it's certainly not the only way to do A/V nor even the best implementation. And, it's not generally available to anyone but to a select few, so things like Internet-Phone are *much* more generally available and work. (I was suprised how well it works). Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:47:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA07074 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07063 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14862; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:45:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199603072045.MAA14862@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Nate Williams cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 1996 13:38:22 MST." <199603072038.NAA02181@rocky.sri.MT.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:45:21 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >>> Nate Williams said: > The MBONE is far and away *NOT* the only mechanism to do A/V. Most of > the folks doing commercial implementation require 30kpbs (I just did > research into this topic for work) to do Audio/Video/White-Board. > That's a *heck* of alot less than MBONE. The Mbone was designed to show > that A/V on WAN was possible, but it's certainly not the only way to do > A/V nor even the best implementation. And, it's not generally available > to anyone but to a select few, so things like Internet-Phone are *much* > more generally available and work. (I was suprised how well it works). Most ip multicast applications work in a point-to-point mode and they are really gated by their compression algorithm. Please Nate do a bit more reasearch for starters the algorithms reguired to deliver audio/video are not tied to the MBONE these are compression algorithms issues. The MBONE serves as a means to control the traffic flow of audio / video streams. Again please do a bit more reading if not lets take this discussion up on freebsd-multimedia mailing list since thats the appropiate forum to discuss the pros and cons of the MBONE. Amancio Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 12:53:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA07612 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07602 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA02287; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:55:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:55:51 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603072055.NAA02287@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-Reply-To: <199603072045.MAA14862@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199603072038.NAA02181@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603072045.MAA14862@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty, Jr. writes: > > The MBONE is far and away *NOT* the only mechanism to do A/V. Most of > > the folks doing commercial implementation require 30kpbs (I just did > > research into this topic for work) to do Audio/Video/White-Board. > > That's a *heck* of alot less than MBONE. The Mbone was designed to show > > that A/V on WAN was possible, but it's certainly not the only way to do > > A/V nor even the best implementation. And, it's not generally available > > to anyone but to a select few, so things like Internet-Phone are *much* > > more generally available and work. (I was suprised how well it works). > > Most ip multicast applications work in a point-to-point mode and they > are really gated by their compression algorithm. IP multicast != point-point. You can have one or the other (well, you can implement multi-cast in a very crude and inefficient way using point-point links). > Please Nate do a bit more reasearch for starters the algorithms reguired > to deliver audio/video are not tied to the MBONE these are compression > algorithms issues. Right, but the MBONE as it stands today requires alot more bandwidth than is actually necessary to do the job. > The MBONE serves as a means to control the traffic flow of audio / > video streams. It is a voluntary way of controlling the flow of audio/video streams, but it obviously doesn't do the job if you read up on it. It has been abused because it is enforced by other folks on the MBONE, not by any protocol limitation. > Again please do a bit more reading > if not lets take this discussion up on freebsd-multimedia mailing list > since thats the appropiate forum to discuss the pros and cons of > the MBONE. The topic at hand is the legislation of outlawing audio on the Internet, and why it's a good or bad thing. The MBONE is one implementation of both audio/video on the network which takes up a *huge* amount of bandwidth which could otherwise be used a larger number of non-audio/video consumers than who use audio/video. That is how it is relevant to the topic. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 14:42:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA25149 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25114 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.5/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id OAA00667 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:00 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Just on a whim, I decided to go into #linux (irc) and ask their opinions of FreeBSD. Some were uneducated, some were just plain wrong. Here is the log, it has been edited for brevity: -- cut here --------------------------------------------------------------- *** coredump_ (coredump@nervosa.com) has joined channel #linux *** Topic for #linux: when in doubt, RTFM *** Topic for #linux set by Durtro on Mar 7 13:34:33 *** Users on #linux: coredump_ assassin fogg |napa|m Lews ferkku keiser Downtown_ robl sv sewilco gonner wyme [oscar] AsmPro Dasmius Iridium Puppe @LinBitch [skum] antmo MCB @Durtro @NOAM Doc_O BitSurfer LiNuXuSeR @FIAM j2^ @filin0 OpCode tonio scaurus ja mesd2 @DoDad @Tempss namzaj w1ld Wizird newton_ Cobra{} Zaph @Visuals @Dustyn DredgeZZZ @Temp BioH longhair_ Dossy @BigRed Valkyrie @Watchers taipan2 <coredump_> What do you all think of FreeBSD? I'm taking a survey, seriously. * jamesd2 is running 1.3.71 no probs ...... Yeah how good is FreeBSD? Im soo sick of redhat, im going to dump it and I need something good.. How is Yadgrillllie or whatever it is? coredump_ i couldnt even install it on my machine, it cold booted while probing hardware! :) coredump: i dunno, i'd like to run it, but haven't come up w/ the $ for the cd <coredump_> antmo: why don't you download it? <coredump_> j2: what kind of hardware od you have? <coredump_> downtown: I would suggest trying out freebsd, it's true BSD unix Durtro: I ran Slackware for years now.. And I love it, thought I would try RedHAt and it SUCKS coredump: me have a 14.4 on a tia connection to a slow isp...don't have tha patients <coredump_> antmo: it will only take you about 3 hours core: P120 (Intel Atlantis board) 40MB ram, 1.6, 1.0, 1.0 GB EIDE, 545, 730MB SCSI and a 6 spin CD Coredump: But is it anything like linux? *** Mode change "+o WingMan" on channel #linux by DoDad FREEBSD is just ok <|napa|m> Downtown: id suggest Debian or Slackware.. bot are excellent <coredump_> downtown: but what do you mean: "is it anything like linux?" <coredump_> cobra: how is it "ok"? Coredump: Exactly like I said, how does it compare to linux I wasent that impressed..and not much support .. my last isp, used bsd... it was great, but now linux is better than bsd was core: Then why survey? What we use shouldn't matter. <coredump_> downtown: well im asking about what do you mean by compare? speed wise, support wise, etc? <coredump_> jamesd: why is it better? coredump: yeah, i downloaded the big fat install howto, and haven't gotten through the whole thing, hopefully i'll have the $/patients when i do get through it <coredump_> antmo: but it's free, you can download the bin,man,floppies dir's and be done. <coredump_> downtown: well first off FreeBSD is pure 4.4BSD style unix, where as Linux borrows features from both SysV and 4.4BSD <|napa|m> coredump: hmm most ppl ive talked to preferred Linux ver FreeBSD.. ive never tried BSD though so i cant judge it :) coredump: it was faster and the system better intergrated, but now linux is better..... linux has improved and is at least equal if not better, my comparison was about 15 months ago a lot has changed since then <coredump_> james: well _why_ is it "better?" coredump_: FreeBSD is not that great <coredump_> cobra: okay, why? FreeBSD: support sucks FreeBSD: ports on the older 386 forget install on a 386 <coredump_> cobra: it sucks? how does it suck? coredump: speed, support, hardware support they just got it to barley run on a 4 meg system <coredump_> cobra: forget install? what does that mean? * Downtown_ is going to download Slackware - seems I have no choice <coredump_> cobra: true, but you'll find that when you do actually run it normally, it's swapping with have higher performance than Linux <-[downtown_]-> do me a favor RedhAt blows, yadgralliiais blows and no one will tell me where to get debain and how it looks so... forget install install over my internet connection was the only feature I liked <-[downtown_]-> what kind of hardware do you have? downtown: slacks init is bsd style...where redhat and devian are the new sysvinit [Downtown_:root@164.170.2] Pentium 166 with 128 meg of ram and 4 gig hd <coredump_> cobra: you didnt like the fact that it was a 100% consistent with 4.4bsd unix and has better networking (tcp/ip, nfs, http) performance than Linux? Wingman: and uhh.. What does sysvinit mean? :) <-[Downtown_]-> what kind of hard drive? coredump: it has the same networking (tcpip ) as linux [Downtown_:root@164.170.2] 4gig Wingman: I personally much prefer the bsd style.. coredump_: I run it on a 386 I just tested it..It had a few things I liked but support is the biggest issue I guess for me I had no problems running it..but for newbies to unix freebsd is not the way to go <coredump_> lews: it does the same networking, the code is not the same <-[Downtown_]-> scsi? downtown: its just the modern way and more of a standard lews: Do you know of a ftp site on this side of the ocean? I dont feel like downloading a 0.001k/sec WingMan: Does Debian look/run anything like RedHat? <coredump_> cobra: support is there, just subscribe to the mailling lists or go into #freebsd coredump: where do you think they got the code? Its a direct port <|napa|m> coredump: the httpd is completely dependent onthe httpd you run. Apache is the best free httpd you can buy, and it works with linux <|napa|m> er not buy but install [Downtown_:root@164.170.2] AIDE <coredump_> lews: no, it's not <coredump_> lews: it's from the 4.4lite net2 tape from Berkeley <-[Downtown_]-> do me a favor *** Signoff: Downtown_ (Time wasted: 14 minutes 13 seconds) *** Downtown_: No such nick/channel comparing redhat to debian is like comparing redhat to slack..... <coredump_> FreeBSD also has a unified distribution, and a major ftp site that is connected at 100mbps on a 150mhz p6 with 512 megs of ram coredump: the only places that I have found an advantage in bsdi or free bsd is nfs (and maybe swap...) <coredump_> with 72 gigs of hd space <coredump_> FreeBSD can run that, no problem. <coredump_> lews: what about the fact that it is consistent? coredump: other networking features like nis nis+ and simultanious connections seem much better under linux <coredump_> only one distribution means consistency coredump: ftp.cdrom.com has a 100mbs link to the net <coredump_> james: that is the site im talking about <coredump_> james: ftp.freebsd.org = ftp.cdrom.com coredump: they also have slackware 2 versions and sunsite and tsx-11 mirrors <coredump_> okay people, we are in the process of gathering comparitive data for FreeBSD and Linux, and potentially other OS'. When this data is posted, would you take the time to look at it, and maybe change your decision? coredump: does it have any sort of install beyond the base filesystem setup? <coredump_> antmo: of course change your decision about what? coredump: no <coredump_> antmo: it's install is just about the same as slackware <coredump_> mcb: why not? <coredump_> dem2: about the OS' you are running. As long as it's not a decision that will force you to lose alot of work i will run whatever i need to run to get the job done but linux has been fine for over 2.5 years now coredump: i dont care... So far I have no problems w/ linux in terms of network performance or stability. The NFS code is getting better in Linux also... If it aint broke dont fix it so... i tried bsd before <coredump_> dem2: okay, now if something out there can run it better, and get the job done better, you would change to it? yes I have an ISP and All my addresses yes if it can run everything better or if the trade off was wort it <coredump_> mcb: bad attitude to take, in this unix world, we dont go by: if it ain't broke, dont fix it" s/wort/worth/g coredump: why should i switch? what will i gain? <coredump_> dem2: okay thanks for the educated decision. <coredump_> mcb: better network performance, very increased stability, consistency of 4.4bsd unix, consistency of distribution, a very fast ftp site, a better OS basically, IMO coredump bsd has "better" networking ... but that is it <coredump_> mcb: ftp.cdrom.com is a 150mhz P6 with 512megs of ram and 72 gigs of hd space with a 100mbps connection. It typically has over 1000 people ftping from it at once. This all runs off of FreeBSD coredump: why are you even here? Ive had no problems w/ stability, and the network performance is fine... <coredump_> mcb: have you used FreeBSD before? if you define the os as strictly networking then yes bsd is "better" but overall (including X and all other programs) i believe linux to be better dem2: the networking code is almost equal now between linux vs BSD coredump see above.... yes if you are just networking bsd is better but it is tougher to set up and such <coredump_> dem2: i'm not, as I said, I don't have all the comparitive data to work off of, I'm just taking initial impressions right now coredump: nope <coredump_> mcb: okay, than you cannot say the network performance is fine compared to FreeBSD. <coredump_> okay, we'll thanks for your time people -- end ----------------------------------------------------------------------- == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 17:04:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21906 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21892 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA15305; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:59:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603080059.RAA15305@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Act Now ! To: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:59:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Mar 7, 96 07:24:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, several years ago, when it was still a telecommunications > company, ITT tried real hard to make a voice switch based upon a packet > switching core. It was an incredible failure, and took ITT's reputation > down into the toilet with it. They tried to do this before the data technology was really there. The Northern Telecom DV series of switches uses a message passing backplane, and does this type of thing regularly. ATM is based on the avility to packet-switch both voice and video (though "leaky bucket" -- uncommitted data rates -- sucks for using ATM for data, but that's an ATM problem). The point is, packet-switching technology exists and is being deployed frequently. Check out the products for buildings and Campuses from Sumitomo Electric (they did the blown fiber installation in every building on the University of Utah campus) or the Salt Lake City company Electric Lightwave, which runs a fiber to your site when you sign up and offers combined phone and data services over a packet switched network. > Circuit switching, when you have a steady data load (like voice has) is > far, far cheaper than any technology that tries to adjust itself to user > demand. Cheaper in terms of hardware for the telephone companies, and > that's why it costs more for ISDN or Frame Relay that your regular home > phone. Maybe this is changing, maybe even right now, but it's true at > this particular point in time. The switches are cheaper, if you assume a certain amount of bandwidth overcommit (which is unacceptable for data, which requires committed rates), and you *don't* include the ADAC's and line drivers to get to the analog lines, which are what is actually going out to your house. The reason it costs more for Frame Relay and ISDN is that the RBOC's have to actually upgrade their equipment to 5ESS or better switching to be able to run the software, and they don't like not being able to amortize the existing hardware over a 20 year period. I say "tough beans". It's that narrow mentality they have that resulted in the installation of a "brand new" *mechanical* switch in a small town in Southern Utah by US West, who was trying to stretch the amortization on the thing another couple of years. > Actually, like I said originally, if only 10 percent of _just hackers_ > began making all their calls via the internet, the internet would bow > under the traffic strain. Fine. Bring it on. The backbone NSP's need to upgrade anyway. They should be running 10Gbit of each and every one of the Sprint transcontinental Fiber lines anyway, IMO. > On top of this, the technology that Amancio > and company is using will not support high speed modems. Nearly all > existing long distance networks will support high speed modems (I know > this because I was tasked to test this assertion several years ago). Who the hell needs to run a 28.8 modem to turn the digital into analog to digital to analog to digital again, when you have a 56k line in place? The voice compression crap is *supposed* to be lossy to allow marginal bandwidth overcommit. Other than AT&T and TelAmerica, I was having problems with LD carriers and space compression when trying to use the early high speed Telebit and US Robotics modems back in 1987. If you don't like it, vote with your $ for carriers who don't pull that kind of crap to get out from under the fact that the AT&T breakup decree was about to expire and AT&T no longer had to provide them with free use of ther transcontinental microwave network (THAT'S what drove Sprint to lay the fiber pipes in the first place...). > I can't completely understand why, in the face of this fairly obvious > fact, why the big phone companies are reacting. I suspect they're > concerned somewhat with appearances, showing they're not the only show in > town, which they certainly aren't anymore. Data pipes are about to become a commodity item, thanks to the cable companies. It's the same argument that was used for proprietary Mac hardware: only Apple has (apparently, and only recently) learned that it's better to have 30% of 100% than 100% of 8%. The cost curve on phone service has long been biased for local calls, with long distance subsidizing the majority of the infrastructure. Why do you think AT&T kept their data processing and long distance services and spun off the RBOC's, instead of the other way around? Once you start only paying to get in, with no regard to the destination, the LD companies have to start charging a flat rate based on pipe size, and their profits go down the toilet. The RBOC's have to then pay based on pipe size to the interconnect, and then there's no such thing as "long distance" because of the impossibility of keeping accurate accounting records for so much packet traffic that per-packet accounting is impossible. That's incidently why ATM connections aren't more popular: the accounting problems are too large to use traditional mechanisms; the LD companies will use it internally and front the actual ATM with circuit switched access to VC's so they can still generate per-call acounting records. The ability to do that goes out the window when you can no longer monitor the buildup and teardown times for the VC's for a given "call". I think this "Act Now!" bulletin is silly; the change over is economically inevitable, and I have no compunctions against attending the funeral of the dinosaurs who refuse to "get with the program". The only thing their petition can result in is a delay in "When", not a change in "If". The course of events is inevitable. My opinions, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 17:25:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23632 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA23624 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA15934; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:24:51 -0800 (PST) To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:42:00 PST." Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 17:24:50 -0800 Message-ID: <15931.826248290@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > Just on a whim, I decided to go into #linux (irc) and ask their opinions > of FreeBSD. Some were uneducated, some were just plain wrong. Here is the > log, it has been edited for brevity: Huh. Reading this reminds me a lot of certain parties I've attended in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco: [person #1] *ssssuuck*. Mmmmm. That's good. You know man, I think this capitalism thing sucks. We should overthrow this corrupt society and go to a series of semi-aut..aut..uh. independant collectivies. [person #2] Right on man. Power to the people. Uh, pass that here, will you? *TOKE*.. Good shit, this.. Chairman Mao said it best, man. [person #3] Said what? [person #2] *sssssuck*.. Uh.. Shit, now I can't remember. [person #1] What were we talking about again? [person #4] Hey, I went to this awesome concert last night. Billy and the Barftones - you gotta check 'em out! Hey, you going to hold on to that thing all night? [person #2] Oh, sorry man. HOLDING! Tee hee! [person #3] Hey, anyone ever tried it with 3 women and a sheep? [person #1] Sheep SUCK, man! They get fur all over your sheets, and the hoofprints! Took my old lady weeks to repair our waterbed. I try to stick to the bipeds, man.. [person #2] Oh god. I think I see Elvis in this tie-dye! [Everyone] WHERE?! Personally, I think I'll take the party crowd over #linux any day.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 18:36:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA29032 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA29027 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.5/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id SAA01559; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:30 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <15931.826248290@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Personally, I think I'll take the party crowd over #linux any day.. :-) > Jordan Me too. =) == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 7 19:19:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA03119 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03106 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilligan.eng.umd.edu (gilligan.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.205]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21024; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by gilligan.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA30405; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:18:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:18:38 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@gilligan.eng.umd.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-Reply-To: <199603080059.RAA15305@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Actually, several years ago, when it was still a telecommunications > > company, ITT tried real hard to make a voice switch based upon a packet > > switching core. It was an incredible failure, and took ITT's reputation > > down into the toilet with it. I am a little puzzled. I saw your notice on hackers, moving this to chat (quite correctly) saying that Chuck is wrong, and message unit based charging must die. I think I have that correctly, anyway. I'm confused, because I was never arguing that message based charging was anything at all, I was arguing that the internet can't absorb even a tiny, tiny fraction of the voice traffic (that nows runs on dedicated voice networks). I don't see where the topic changed, but if it has, to that topic, I'm not holding any position there at all, and I don't want to argue it. Maybe I should let this drop here. I was started because of that Voice Over Net article that was posted, and the (un)reasoning over the telco's response to what I saw as a non-issue. Since it couldn't possibly happen, why would they make a fuss over stopping the impossible (today's impossible being, of course, tomorrow's obvious path). It's impossible today, why worry it? When it becomes possible, it's going to happen anyways, because of all the unregulation. > > They tried to do this before the data technology was really there. > > The Northern Telecom DV series of switches uses a message passing > backplane, and does this type of thing regularly. > > ATM is based on the avility to packet-switch both voice and video > (though "leaky bucket" -- uncommitted data rates -- sucks for using > ATM for data, but that's an ATM problem). > > The point is, packet-switching technology exists and is being deployed > frequently. Check out the products for buildings and Campuses from > Sumitomo Electric (they did the blown fiber installation in every > building on the University of Utah campus) or the Salt Lake City > company Electric Lightwave, which runs a fiber to your site when you > sign up and offers combined phone and data services over a packet > switched network. > > > Circuit switching, when you have a steady data load (like voice has) is > > far, far cheaper than any technology that tries to adjust itself to user > > demand. Cheaper in terms of hardware for the telephone companies, and > > that's why it costs more for ISDN or Frame Relay that your regular home > > phone. Maybe this is changing, maybe even right now, but it's true at > > this particular point in time. > > The switches are cheaper, if you assume a certain amount of bandwidth > overcommit (which is unacceptable for data, which requires committed > rates), and you *don't* include the ADAC's and line drivers to get > to the analog lines, which are what is actually going out to your > house. > > The reason it costs more for Frame Relay and ISDN is that the RBOC's > have to actually upgrade their equipment to 5ESS or better switching > to be able to run the software, and they don't like not being able > to amortize the existing hardware over a 20 year period. > > I say "tough beans". It's that narrow mentality they have that > resulted in the installation of a "brand new" *mechanical* switch > in a small town in Southern Utah by US West, who was trying to > stretch the amortization on the thing another couple of years. > > > Actually, like I said originally, if only 10 percent of _just hackers_ > > began making all their calls via the internet, the internet would bow > > under the traffic strain. > > Fine. Bring it on. The backbone NSP's need to upgrade anyway. They > should be running 10Gbit of each and every one of the Sprint > transcontinental Fiber lines anyway, IMO. > > > On top of this, the technology that Amancio > > and company is using will not support high speed modems. Nearly all > > existing long distance networks will support high speed modems (I know > > this because I was tasked to test this assertion several years ago). > > Who the hell needs to run a 28.8 modem to turn the digital into analog > to digital to analog to digital again, when you have a 56k line in place? > > The voice compression crap is *supposed* to be lossy to allow marginal > bandwidth overcommit. Other than AT&T and TelAmerica, I was having > problems with LD carriers and space compression when trying to use > the early high speed Telebit and US Robotics modems back in 1987. > If you don't like it, vote with your $ for carriers who don't pull > that kind of crap to get out from under the fact that the AT&T > breakup decree was about to expire and AT&T no longer had to provide > them with free use of ther transcontinental microwave network (THAT'S > what drove Sprint to lay the fiber pipes in the first place...). > > > I can't completely understand why, in the face of this fairly obvious > > fact, why the big phone companies are reacting. I suspect they're > > concerned somewhat with appearances, showing they're not the only show in > > town, which they certainly aren't anymore. > > Data pipes are about to become a commodity item, thanks to the cable > companies. It's the same argument that was used for proprietary > Mac hardware: only Apple has (apparently, and only recently) learned > that it's better to have 30% of 100% than 100% of 8%. > > The cost curve on phone service has long been biased for local calls, > with long distance subsidizing the majority of the infrastructure. > Why do you think AT&T kept their data processing and long distance > services and spun off the RBOC's, instead of the other way around? > > Once you start only paying to get in, with no regard to the > destination, the LD companies have to start charging a flat rate > based on pipe size, and their profits go down the toilet. The > RBOC's have to then pay based on pipe size to the interconnect, > and then there's no such thing as "long distance" because of > the impossibility of keeping accurate accounting records for > so much packet traffic that per-packet accounting is impossible. > > That's incidently why ATM connections aren't more popular: the > accounting problems are too large to use traditional mechanisms; > the LD companies will use it internally and front the actual ATM > with circuit switched access to VC's so they can still generate > per-call acounting records. > > The ability to do that goes out the window when you can no longer > monitor the buildup and teardown times for the VC's for a given > "call". > > > I think this "Act Now!" bulletin is silly; the change over is > economically inevitable, and I have no compunctions against > attending the funeral of the dinosaurs who refuse to "get with > the program". The only thing their petition can result in is > a delay in "When", not a change in "If". The course of events > is inevitable. > > > My opinions, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 02:39:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA27935 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 02:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA27931 for chat; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 02:39:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 02:39:28 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199603081039.CAA27931@freefall.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: Testing... Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Just checking the anti-mail-loop hack... -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 03:16:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA00822 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 03:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [192.216.222.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA00759 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 03:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA23177 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:51:23 -0800 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA05349 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:50:42 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA12064 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:50:42 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA21484 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:45:13 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603080845.JAA21484@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: your mail To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:45:13 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "invalid opcode" at Mar 7, 96 02:42:00 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk As invalid opcode wrote: > Just on a whim, I decided to go into #linux (irc) and ask their opinions > of FreeBSD. Some were uneducated, some were just plain wrong. Here is the > log, it has been edited for brevity: [A bunch of slibberish deleted.] Aieee, and this IRC is what people do really love? :-) (At least, now i know why i'll never touch an IRC client myself...) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 09:12:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA00358 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00351 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA17161; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:05:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603081705.KAA17161@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Act Now ! To: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:05:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Mar 7, 96 10:18:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > I am a little puzzled. I saw your notice on hackers, moving this to chat > (quite correctly) saying that Chuck is wrong, and message unit based > charging must die. I think I have that correctly, anyway. I'm confused, > because I was never arguing that message based charging was anything at > all, I was arguing that the internet can't absorb even a tiny, tiny > fraction of the voice traffic (that nows runs on dedicated voice > networks). I don't see where the topic changed, but if it has, to that > topic, I'm not holding any position there at all, and I don't want to > argue it. Maybe I should let this drop here. Well, I can tell you that I think circuit switching is in fact more expensive than packet switching. The message unit charges argument is just a supporting argument as a hedge against a claim that the cost of moving to packet switching exceeds the cost of keeping circuit switching (should you bring that up as a counter). My point is that I think the Internet will subsume the phone networks, even if you are right about its current capacity, since that capacity will increase over time. I'm not very worried about the internet overloading, nor about the VON paranoia, since I think both ideas ignore the economics of the situation. The voice and data networks *will* be integrated, and there *will* be people with the capability of not generating audit records for connection creation and tear-down, so billing by connection will go away. I think the ability to bill by connect + message units is the *only* reason things are still circuit switched -- it's not the inability of packet switched networks (like the Internet) to handle the load, that incents them, it's the ability of the telephone company to keep on doing business as usual. > I was started because of that Voice Over Net article that was posted, > and the (un)reasoning over the telco's response to what I saw as a > non-issue. Since it couldn't possibly happen, why would they make a fuss > over stopping the impossible (today's impossible being, of course, > tomorrow's obvious path). It's impossible today, why worry it? When it > becomes possible, it's going to happen anyways, because of all the > unregulation. I see it as a non-issue because I think it's inevitable. So at least we agree, it's a non-issue. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 8 18:12:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA06196 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.205.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06189 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id TAA07870; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:10:48 -0700 (MST) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199603090210.TAA07870@intele.net> Subject: Re: Act Now ! To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:10:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603071859.KAA13924@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 7, 96 10:59:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > Voice is just one data type. One incurs far more bandwith with > downloading images, files, etc... FTP considered harmful? ;^) > By far the worst Internet polluter has got to be those zillions > of Win95 users and AT&T now providing Internet services. Let us not forget AhOLe, my dear Mr. Hasty. > One would hope that if AT&T is going to provide Internet Services that > they can also support their own infrastructure which happens to support > much of the Internet backbone infra structure. Or at least be sure to route packets over their network as much as possible. I don't know how they'd accomplish this, perhaps with the new OMATTPF routing protocol (Open Most-AT&T Path First). ;^) Like Dr. Frakensteins creation, the Internet is growing in ways the "parents" could not have forseen, some good, some bad. I'm still very undecided about the growth of the net in the last 2 or 3 years; while the traffic has gone up tremendously, the useful content seems to have diminished. The net in 1992, creeping from 56K to T1 backbone links, was more useful to me than the current high-falutin' mess we've got now. > The Internet is not a real-time delivery network any attempt to > massively use it as such will just simply fail. People can tolerate > slight delays on ftp packets, or downloading images but when it > comes to sound and to a lesser extent live video they get quickly > irritated. Slight delays! Would you believe 1:39 to ftp the latest GNU Emacs from Gatekeeper! 1.64 Kbytes/s on a T1 connection, what a crock! I HATE FRIDAY AFTERNOONS ON THE INTERNET! ARGH! YOU STUPID KIDS ALL GO HOME AND WATCH MTV AND GET OFF THE NET! Ahem. Sorry, I've regained my composure now. ;^) Yes, from the lofty perspective of 4 months in the televsion broadcasting routing and control industry, I can affirm that "the internet" as a whole has no idea of what bandwidth *really* is. We build switching matrices in the 1000x1000x20 range, with each path carrying video + timecode, and could do more. Compare that to the bandwidth of your average Cisco router. Phone company switches are *much* more impressive, especially the much-vaunted #5 ESS. Packet routing is not going to replace *any* of this, it incurs too much overhead. The real sluggishness of the Internet of today is caused, I believe, by the explosion of "the web." We all should have been able to predict that as soon as somebody made it possible for any idiot to use the net, half the idiots in the world would want to, and the other half would consider it inherently evil and denounce it. Thus we have pitted the U.S. Congress against the numerous minions of, for instance, AOL. ;^) -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 06:32:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA27772 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 06:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA27767 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 06:32:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilligan.eng.umd.edu (gilligan.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.205]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA24275; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by gilligan.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02957; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:32:35 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@gilligan.eng.umd.edu To: Steve Khoo cc: FreeBSD-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: make world with pgcc-2.7.2.6 possible? In-Reply-To: <199603090600.WAA29466@hermes.gordian.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Steve Khoo wrote: > >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Robey writes: > > Chuck> On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Steve Khoo wrote: > > >> Is it possible to make world with pgcc-2.7.2.6, or is this > >> still broken? > > Chuck> This seems kinda strange to me. I don't think something is > Chuck> broken unless it worked (or was supposed to) at some time. > Chuck> pgcc, except for some isolated folks that have hacked it in > Chuck> on their own systems, has never been integrated into > > Hmmm... I guess I was mistaken in my believe that someone out there > had successfully done a make world and built the kernel with pgcc > after some minor patches. I thought the patches were incorporated > into the pgcc-2.7.2.6 port. Like I said, this HAS been done, but only by folks on their individual machines, not on -current. You realize, I hope, that not everyone HAS a P6? > > Chuck> current. Whether or not to do this is still a matter of > Chuck> discussion ... maybe you want to register another opinion? > > No strong opinion on that. Maybe we should just got to a P6 > optimized compiler. ;^> > > Chuck> Although I think something like that actually belongs on > Chuck> FreeBSD-chat. > > > ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 09:46:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA12133 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [192.216.222.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12128 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA11866 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:43:19 -0800 Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17709 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:18:42 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603091618.SAA17709@grumble.grondar.za> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Poor connection to WC Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:18:41 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today (Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). Any clues/ides? M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 13:35:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA26486 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26481 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id PAA17548; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 15:36:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 15:36:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Mark Murray cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-Reply-To: <199603091618.SAA17709@grumble.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, Mark Murray wrote: > Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today > (Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? > A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). With all this AT&T stuff I'm not surprised. :) Seriously, Sprint and MCI have been melting down in recent weeks. Expect it to get much worse. :) | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 17:17:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA11647 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11642 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA13270; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:17:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199603100117.RAA13270@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Mark Murray cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:18:41 +0200." <199603091618.SAA17709@grumble.grondar.za> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:17:21 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today >(Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? > >A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). > >Any clues/ides? There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 22:00:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA26096 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 22:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26091 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 22:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA04064 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:59:35 +0800 (WST) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:59:35 +0800 (WST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199603100559.NAA04064@jhome.DIALix.COM> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: test2 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.orgnPrecedence: bulk test of mail loop breaker.. (yes, again.. sorry) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 9 23:32:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA00352 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 23:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA00347 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 23:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01086; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:32:28 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603100732.JAA01086@grumble.grondar.za> To: davidg@Root.COM cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:32:27 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > >Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today > >(Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? > > > >A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). > > > >Any clues/ides? > > There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been > around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem > to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week > I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. HOORAY!! M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key