From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:05:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA01268 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01255 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA22794; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:26 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA20980; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:25 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA10092; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:40:25 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170840.JAA10092@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Application Development (fwd) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:40:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Mar 16, 96 10:31:18 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat) As Narvi wrote: > Could some just fish out a reference to a > real RDBMS (no toys - I mean something like Oracle, Gupta, Informix, ^^^^^^^^ > etc.) running on FreeBSD so that I would not have to throw it out of my > server and replace it with Windows NT or OS/2 when the money for the > database arrives (and it will). I recently had to ``truss'' an informix on a SysV. Oh well... Do you know what they're doing in order to create a new directory? They execute /bin/mkdir (from inside a C program). !!! This makes me really worry about the quality of their code... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:05:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA01297 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01285 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA22798; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:28 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA20981; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:28 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA10192; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:48:17 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170848.JAA10192@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:48:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603170419.UAA01518@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 16, 96 08:19:32 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > Hi, > > I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running freebsd. Open a T/TCP connection? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:50:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03161 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03142 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA00320; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:49:09 -0800 Message-Id: <199603170949.BAA00320@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:48:16 +0100." <199603170848.JAA10192@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:49:07 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> J Wunsch said: > As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running freebsd. > > Open a T/TCP connection? Oh, which tcp port? Tnks! Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:50:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03268 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03241 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23368; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:30 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA21150; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:29 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA10520; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:14:29 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170914.KAA10520@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:14:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca" at Mar 17, 96 00:07:28 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca wrote: > Telnet to them! For example, telnet://ftp.cdrom.com will produce > something like > > FreeBSD wcarchive.cdrom.com > > Login: > > Actually, the alt.2600 faq has a whole section on identifying > which OS xxx site is running based on what type of login prompt it gives > you.A While you are stuck with the builtin banner message on a SysV (what a security-wise stupid idea!), you can easily modify it for BSD, so it's impossible to get the type of machine directly. For example, my own machine says: j@uriah 306% telnet 0 Trying 0.0.0.0... Connected to 0. Escape character is '^]'. Welcome at uriah.heep.sax.de! Please login with "msg" if you wanna leave a message to the owner. login: -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:58:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03691 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03682 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23439; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:57:59 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA21251; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:57:58 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA10804; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:53:31 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170953.KAA10804@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:53:30 +0100 (MET) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603170949.BAA00320@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 17, 96 01:49:07 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > Open a T/TCP connection? > > Oh, which tcp port? finger? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 01:58:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03706 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03687 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23443; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:58:00 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA21252; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:58:00 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA10838; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:57:41 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170957.KAA10838@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:57:41 +0100 (MET) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603170949.BAA00320@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 17, 96 01:49:07 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > >>> J Wunsch said: > > As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running freebsd. Btw., they've got a totally mangled DNS setup. Their own server doesn't reverse-lookup itself =:-), and the ISP's secondary doesn't know about www.diamond.com. at all. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 02:06:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA04326 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA04319 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA00617; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:05:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199603171005.CAA00617@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:53:30 +0100." <199603170953.KAA10804@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:05:16 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I did try finger... >>> J Wunsch said: > As Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > Open a T/TCP connection? > > > > Oh, which tcp port? > > finger? > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIP E > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 03:53:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA10052 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA10045 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I2G2CRMITS0011W5@mail.rwth-aachen.de>; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:55:10 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA09452; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:58:19 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:58:18 +0100 (MET) From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: Re: Win32 In-reply-to: <199603161831.KAA03892@rah.star-gate.com> To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: Christoph Kukulies Message-id: <199603171158.MAA09452@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Subject shortened] > > > Two things that can can attract more individuals to FreeBSD: > > o ability to run Win32 applications -- hows the Willows Project coming along? I think the main problem with Willows is performance. Apps are run under an interpreter (xwin) either interpreted or 'native'. I have run winmine.exe and sol.exe and though they run quite correct performance isn't something that knocks you off of your socks. Also I think one would have to dump X11 in favor of a native Win32 graphics kernel or build a Win32 graphics kernel into X. I don't know whether a different approach like running PE format and other MS .exe formats native under FreeBSD would be feasable. When MS developed NT they must have been faced with a similar problem but they solved it with convincing performance. And didn't they promise us POSIX layers and X11 and what not when I recall the first overhead foils that had been presented by DEC and NT apostels a couple of years ago? > > A few people that I have spoken to have said that if they could run > win32 apps they would use freebsd. The funny thing is that I didn't > notice a hesitation on their part 8) > > Another reason, is to attract Win32 application developers to FreeBSD. > > Perhaps, I am naive however I think that many would love to dump > Win3.1 and Win95. [fast internet connection / ISDN issues deleted] > > > Amancio > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 04:00:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA10657 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA10651 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA04804; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:02:40 +0200 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:02:38 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Christoph P. Kukulies" cc: "Amancio Hasty Jr." , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Win32 In-Reply-To: <199603171158.MAA09452@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Christoph P. Kukulies wrote: > [Subject shortened] > > > > > > > Two things that can can attract more individuals to FreeBSD: > > > > o ability to run Win32 applications -- hows the Willows Project coming along? > > I think the main problem with Willows is performance. Apps are run under > an interpreter (xwin) either interpreted or 'native'. > I have run winmine.exe and sol.exe and though they run quite correct > performance isn't something that knocks you off of your socks. > > Also I think one would have to dump X11 in favor of a native Win32 graphics > kernel or build a Win32 graphics kernel into X. > And that (dumping X) will also be the reason more numerous people will not use it. > I don't know whether a different approach like running PE format and > other MS .exe formats native under FreeBSD would be feasable. > It should be possible to run them as efficently as the Linux programs. > When MS developed NT they must have been faced with a similar problem > but they solved it with convincing performance. And didn't they promise > us POSIX layers and X11 and what not when I recall the first overhead > foils that had been presented by DEC and NT apostels a couple of years ago? > > > > > > A few people that I have spoken to have said that if they could run > > win32 apps they would use freebsd. The funny thing is that I didn't > > notice a hesitation on their part 8) > > > > Another reason, is to attract Win32 application developers to FreeBSD. > > > > Perhaps, I am naive however I think that many would love to dump > > Win3.1 and Win95. > > [fast internet connection / ISDN issues deleted] > > > > > > > Amancio > > > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 08:21:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA22228 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22222 Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA11964; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:21:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199603171621.IAA11964@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: core@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org, tech@cdrom.com Subject: more about net troubles From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:21:53 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just spoke with a CRL tech about the network problems that we (and others) have been having during the past few days. It turns out that there was a gas explosion in the Wintel building (which contains the CIX router as well as routers for Agis/Net99, Sprint, Netcom, and several other major providers). It killed the power for about 9 hours last Thursday. The UPS's ran out of power eventually and when the power came back on, several of the core routers were damaged and didn't come back up right - they apparantly overheated due to lack of air conditioning and/or were damaged by the power spike(s). If that weren't enough, attempts to route around the problem by most of those affected have really hosed things up. The status at the moment is that the Agis/Net99 and Netcom routers are still down and Sprint traffic between certain routers at Stockton seems to end up going through Fort Worth and Kansas City (if I read the traceroute correctly) just to get across the room. Sigh. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 08:32:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA22934 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA22928 for freebsd-chat; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:32:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:32:38 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603171632.IAA22928@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-chat Subject: Testing email Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 09:13:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA24333 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24327 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA10931; Sun, 17 Mar 96 17:13:26 GMT Message-Id: <9603171713.AA10931@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA279572822; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:13:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:13:42 -0700 From: Sean Kelly To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603170419.UAA01518@rah.star-gate.com> (hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> ""Amancio" == "Amancio Hasty Jr " writes: "Amancio> I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running "Amancio> freebsd. Do you mean www.diamondmm.com? rosemary 100 > telnet www.diamondmm.com Trying 199.182.102.186... Connected to www.diamondmm.com. Escape character is '^]'. Linux 1.2.13 (www.diamondmm.com) (ttyp0) www login: Connection closed by foreign host. rosemary 101 > Now I feel ill. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 09:41:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA25351 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25345 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id SAA15423 ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:41:15 +0100 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id SAA06268 ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:41:14 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.4/keltia-uucp-2.7) id NAA10064; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:26:55 +0100 (MET) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199603171226.NAA10064@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Application Development (fwd) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:26:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603170840.JAA10092@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Mar 17, 96 09:40:25 am" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1762 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that J Wunsch said: > Do you know what they're doing in order to create a new directory? > > They execute /bin/mkdir (from inside a C program). !!! I seem to remember old SysV (3.0 or maybe even 2.x) didn't have a mkdir(2) syscall and that was why /bin/mkdir was setuid-root in order to mknod the directory. That's probably "legacy code" from these days :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.frmug.fr.net FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #6: Mon Mar 11 20:18:10 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 11:10:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA29676 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29663 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01251 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:09:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199603171909.LAA01251@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:14:28 +0100." <199603170914.KAA10520@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:09:41 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tnks to those who responded to my question! diamond a little while ago was interested in switching to FreeBSD and I noticed that their ftp site quoted supporting 256 users so I naturally assumed that they had switched over to FreeBSD . Sad to say they are still running linux. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 12:15:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02605 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02600 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id PAA10570; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:13:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:13:47 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Mirroring ftp.freebsd.org effectively Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got mirror 2.8 installed and running here, but I'm having a little trouble getting consistent results with the FreeBSD archives. I see a lot of "Not symlinking ..." errors and empty directories. Could someone send me their package entry for FreeBSD? Mine is currently: package=freebsd comment=The FreeBSD Project use_files=true site=ftp.freebsd.org remote_dir=/pub/FreeBSD/ local_dir+/.1/freebsd/ exclude_patt=.*/.mirror do_deletes=false I use "mirror -d -pfreebsd /root/mirror/ftp.io.org" to update the local archives. Should I be doing something different? On a related note, is there an established procedure for mirroring the Web site? In particular, I'd like to have the mailing list archives and search engine available locally, just for kicks. :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 17 14:51:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11849 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11843 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA06541 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:50:41 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA27651 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:50:40 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA22694 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:41:36 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603172241.XAA22694@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Application Development (fwd) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:41:36 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603171226.NAA10064@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 17, 96 01:26:54 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ollivier Robert wrote: > > They execute /bin/mkdir (from inside a C program). !!! > > I seem to remember old SysV (3.0 or maybe even 2.x) didn't have a mkdir(2) > syscall and that was why /bin/mkdir was setuid-root in order to mknod the > directory. That's probably "legacy code" from these days :-) Hmm. Really SysV? I thought the ``one-step commit'' for directory creation was older. At least, the ISC SVR3.2 i've once been playing with did already have mkdir(2). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 05:59:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA22961 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA22955 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA27428; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:59:46 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603181359.IAA27428@server.id.net> Subject: Re: Mirroring ftp.freebsd.org effectively To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:59:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 17, 96 03:13:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've got mirror 2.8 installed and running here, but I'm having a > little trouble getting consistent results with the FreeBSD archives. > I see a lot of "Not symlinking ..." errors and empty directories. > Could someone send me their package entry for FreeBSD? Mine is > currently: > > package=freebsd > comment=The FreeBSD Project > use_files=true > site=ftp.freebsd.org > remote_dir=/pub/FreeBSD/ > local_dir+/.1/freebsd/ > exclude_patt=.*/.mirror > do_deletes=false > > I use "mirror -d -pfreebsd /root/mirror/ftp.io.org" to update the > local archives. Should I be doing something different? > > On a related note, is there an established procedure for mirroring > the Web site? In particular, I'd like to have the mailing list > archives and search engine available locally, just for kicks. :) I'm not sure what the "official" word on mirroring the FreeBSD archives is, but 'mirror' puts a pretty heavy load on the server it's mirroring. >From my understanding, it would be much better to use SUP to mirror the archives (I know it's available for the source trees, I'm not sure about the binary trees though). -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 06:02:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA23347 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA23339 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA27457; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:03:20 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603181403.JAA27457@server.id.net> Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:03:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9603171713.AA10931@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Mar 17, 96 10:13:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > "Amancio> I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running > "Amancio> freebsd. > > Do you mean www.diamondmm.com? > > rosemary 100 > telnet www.diamondmm.com > Trying 199.182.102.186... > Connected to www.diamondmm.com. > Escape character is '^]'. > > Linux 1.2.13 (www.diamondmm.com) (ttyp0) > > > www login: Connection closed by foreign host. > rosemary 101 > > > Now I feel ill. Which is *REALLY* quite sad that *ANYBODY* would run Linux as any kind of network anything.. We've installed it here several times (don't ask why) over the past two years, and every time, FreeBSD BLEW IT AWAY! We installed the last version of Linux here recently as a T1 router... Ping times of 10.4ms - 20.2ms, installed FreeBSD (same exact hardware using pull-out hard-drives) and got 7.5ms - 10.5ms... And that's only part of it! -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 08:18:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA03225 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p1-12.intele.net [206.29.206.111]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03209 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA12377; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:19:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:19:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199603181619.JAA12377@obie.softweyr.com> From: Barnacle Wes To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199603172241.XAA22694@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:41:36 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: Application Development (fwd) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ollivier Robert wrote: > I seem to remember old SysV (3.0 or maybe even 2.x) didn't have > a mkdir(2) syscall and that was why /bin/mkdir was setuid-root in > order to mknod the directory. That's probably "legacy code" from > these days :-) J Wunsch replied: % Hmm. Really SysV? I thought the ``one-step commit'' for directory % creation was older. At least, the ISC SVR3.2 i've once been % playing with did already have mkdir(2). SVR2 (as in Microport System V/AT, my first home UNIX system ;^) didn't. Exec'ing mkdir(1m) was very common in those days. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 09:42:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA08622 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08616 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id SAA06712 ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:42:10 +0100 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id SAA11083 ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:42:10 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.4/keltia-uucp-2.7) id IAA17428; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:52:28 +0100 (MET) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199603180752.IAA17428@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Application Development (fwd) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:52:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603172241.XAA22694@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Mar 17, 96 11:41:36 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1762 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that J Wunsch said: > Hmm. Really SysV? I thought the ``one-step commit'' for directory > creation was older. At least, the ISC SVR3.2 i've once been playing > with did already have mkdir(2). Early versions of Xenix (SysV rel 2) didn't have mkdir(2) I think. Its been too long since I've played with Xenix... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.frmug.fr.net FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #6: Mon Mar 11 20:18:10 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 10:41:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA13611 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA13527 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id NAA01545; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:37:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:37:58 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Joe Greco cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603181730.LAA25980@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > Been thinking about dumping my POTS service at home (yes, yes, I know the > dangers of being without power and only having an ISDN circuit..).. :-) ... or having an analog line connected to a phone that requires power to operate. ;-) For a while, I had two cordless phones in my apartment. If the power went out, I'd be stuck anyway, since neither of them work unless the base station is powered. Solution: I bought a $20 Bell Harmony phone, plugged it into the analog line, and moved one of the cordless phones to the POTS jack on the Bitsurfr. :) > First I actually have to get something beyond an XT laptop though. Or get working on the 8088 version of FreeBS. ;-) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 10:44:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA14442 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA14416 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15348(15)>; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:44:01 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177478>; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:43:51 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: davidg@Root.COM cc: core@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org, tech@cdrom.com Subject: Re: more about net troubles In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:21:53 PST." <199603171621.IAA11964@Root.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:43:46 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Mar18.104351pst.177478@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199603171621.IAA11964@Root.COM> davidg wrote: >It turns out that there was a gas explosion in the Wintel building For the curious, here's an eye-witness report. mpetach@falcon.netflight.com said: > I was driving to work, running a bit late at around 11:10 am, and > turned west on Walsh Avenue from San Tomas. I pulled into the left > turn lane leading into the business park, and noticed the driveway > was blocked with orange cones and a backhoe digging. A woman in a > dark, Pennsylvania green lincoln towncar pulled up into the left turn > lane behind me. When the left turn arrow turned green, I made a > u-turn on Walsh, and entered the business park via a secondary > driveway closer to San Tomas. I glanced in my rear-view mirror, and > saw that the woman in the green car was stopped midway through the > intersection, blocking oncoming traffic, waiting for the construction > crew to move the cones to let her into the parking lot via that > driveway; I guess she figured the earth rotated around her, so why > shouldn't everyone else change to fit? So, as I pulled into the > parking lot in front of work, I looked over at the entrance, and saw > that the construction workers were attempting to be nice, and were > moving the cones out of the way, and trying to back up the backhoe so > she could go past, and stop blocking the traffic that was now getting > very irate. :-) As the worker in the backhoe was pulling the bucket > out of the hole, he must have hit the main, because there was a very > loud "kawoosh" and a blast of white condesation headed skyward. The > construction crew started running away from the hole, and I headed > into work to alert my coworkers to the problem. One of my coworkers > called PG&E while a second one called 911. PG&E immediately said > they were dispatching a crew to the site, and also told us to begin > shutting down any exterior equipment that was likely to cause sparks. > By this time, the smell of natural gas was nearly overpowering > outside, and was becoming more so indoors. We began shutting down > all the air conditioners on the roof, and began prepping the site for > evacuation. Within about 15 minutes, the fire dept. had arrived, as > had PG&E, and began roping off the area, and had us evacuate the > building. We used cellular phones to call back in, and changed the > outgoing messages for the NOC and tech support ACD queues to alert > customers that we had been evacuated, and could not currently come to > the phones. :-) > PG&E began working on isolating the section of pipe, but within 15 > minutes of their arrival, a spark triggered a fireball that roasted > the dump truck, the backhoe, the tree nearby, the signs, and pretty > much everything else in the vicinity. The one good offshoot of the > fireball was that the pipe was actually burning now, and sending > flames ~75 feet in a nice vertical column; the fire dept. immediately > pulled hoses into place, to keep the fire contained to the single > jet, and the nice folks next door at Wiltel rolled out their 75kVa > generator out the BACK of the building, which was approx 150 yards > from the actual gas leak, and fired it up, since there wasn't much > danger of an explosion now that there was a constant flame source > burning off the gas as it emerged. > Since we couldn't get to our cars, we walked to lunch, and answered > pages from various customers who noticed that network connectivity > was spotty or nonexistent to large areas, and explained the > situation. We got back to work by about 2:30pm, the fire was still > going, but PG&E was working on clamping off the pipe physically a few > dozen yards upstream; once the pipe was crushed, and the fire out, it > only took about an hour to get clearance from the incident commander > to air out the building, get santa clara electric to restore power, > reset the PDU, reset the UPS's, and by 3:30 full network connectivity > through our network was restored. > Hopefully this clarifies the situation from a firsthand witness, and > keeps people from blaming Wiltel for sparks or any other such > nonsense. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 18 12:03:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01002 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00952 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id PAA01673; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:00:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:00:49 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Robert Shady cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: Mirroring ftp.freebsd.org effectively In-Reply-To: <199603181359.IAA27428@server.id.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Robert Shady wrote: > > I'm not sure what the "official" word on mirroring the FreeBSD archives > is, but 'mirror' puts a pretty heavy load on the server it's mirroring. Hmmmm... maybe I'll just keep the frozen stuff around and not bother with -CVS, -current and -stable. Mirror updates are taking 8 hours a day now, for just the FreeBSD stuff (and mirror 2.8 still eats up 50 to 60MB of core!). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 19 13:14:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA01643 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA01635 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:14:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:14:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199603192114.NAA01635@freefall.freebsd.org> To: terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD be used in a commercial way? Cc: chat Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Only SVR4 (original AT&T) version need licenses. That is why > > Sun paid $85M to Novell. > > Actually, Sun did it as a "royalty buyout". If it were a fixed cost, > it would be "one time overhead", and the street price of Solaris would > have dropped immediately. It didn't. Seems like a very bad deal now, doesn't it, now that SCO has bought all of Unix for 80M? From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 19 15:10:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA09330 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09322 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA25103; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:05:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192305.QAA25103@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD be used in a commercial way? To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:05:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192114.NAA01635@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Mar 19, 96 01:14:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Only SVR4 (original AT&T) version need licenses. That is why > > > Sun paid $85M to Novell. > > > > Actually, Sun did it as a "royalty buyout". If it were a fixed cost, > > it would be "one time overhead", and the street price of Solaris would > > have dropped immediately. It didn't. > > Seems like a very bad deal now, doesn't it, now that SCO has bought > all of Unix for 80M? Kind of an old message. 8-). Yeah, well, Sun switched from SunOS to Solaris, too... there's no accounting for taste. It was a mistake to let the bean-counters classify the purchase, since it damaged the end-user pricing of Solaris itself, since they were trying to amortize a fixed cost as a capital invetment. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 19 20:00:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA28029 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p2-11.intele.net [206.29.206.126]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA28021 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00775; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:59:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:59:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199603200359.UAA00775@obie.softweyr.com> From: wes@intele.net To: Jeffrey Hsu CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD be used in a commercial way? In-Reply-To: <199603192114.NAA01635@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199603192114.NAA01635@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey Hsu writes: > > > Only SVR4 (original AT&T) version need licenses. That is why > > > Sun paid $85M to Novell. > > > > Actually, Sun did it as a "royalty buyout". If it were a fixed cost, > > it would be "one time overhead", and the street price of Solaris would > > have dropped immediately. It didn't. > > Seems like a very bad deal now, doesn't it, now that SCO has bought > all of Unix for 80M? SCO didn't buy "all of Unix." In fact, all they bought was the source to UnixWare, and the rights to sell "derived works." This is essentially what Sun bought as well -- SVR4 source and the right to sell derived works under their own name with no royalties. Everything else, including the "intagible" but nevertheless highly valuable rights to the trademark "UNIX" went to X/Open. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 19 22:56:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA08226 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA08220 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:56:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:56:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199603200656.WAA08220@freefall.freebsd.org> To: wes@intele.net Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD be used in a commercial way? Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought the crucial difference was that Sun only got the rights to the current version of SVR4, whereas SCO got the rights to the current and future versions of SVR4, no? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 20 10:48:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24228 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24183 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilligan.eng.umd.edu (gilligan.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.205]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18125 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by gilligan.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05743; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:47:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:47:26 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@gilligan.eng.umd.edu To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: internationalization Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no German section? Are a very large number of Germans content with English programs, or is the interest not there, or are these things showing up on different venues? I don't speak German myself, but it does seem unreasonable, given the size of the German audience. I would suppose this would go with equal force for the French folks (I read the comments of many French FreeBSD contributors with interest). Why is there no /usr/ports/french? ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 00:16:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA06795 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06788 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA25792; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:16:29 +0100 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199603210816.JAA25792@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: internationalization To: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:16:29 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Mar 20, 96 01:47:26 pm" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey wrote: > I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy > sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted > for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I > occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a > non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no > German section? Are a very large number of Germans content with English > programs, or is the interest not there, or are these things showing up on > different venues? For me, there's no need for a German section in ports. I have set LC_CTYPE=de_DE.ISO_8859-1 which does most of the i18n I want: recognizing umlauts as type alpha. Once I had LANG set, but after I got `Kein Treffer' from tcsh for the first time I changed that on the spot. I'm simply not used to getting German (error) messages. I can't parse them, I have to (try to) re-translate them into English (`No match' in this case (``kein Streichholz'')). Actually, this goes much beyond program output. The lingua franca in the (computer) world is English, like it or not. All technical terms are English. Trying to read a book in German, (original or translated) will leave you fighting with words you've never heard, literally translated back from English. The resulting language is quite disgusting and harder to read than English (for me, at least, even though my English is not good). tg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 02:26:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA16984 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA16593 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA15349 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:47 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA20947 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA12190 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:41:50 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603210941.KAA12190@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: internationalization To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:41:50 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Mar 20, 96 01:47:26 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Chuck Robey wrote: > I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy > sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted > for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I > occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a > non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no > German section? German is in the unusual advantage that it can be run with a simple 8-bit clean environment without much tweaking, now that ISO-8859-1 is de facto the default font for most things around here in a Unix environment. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 03:09:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA19430 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 03:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA19412 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 03:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Thu, 21 Mar 96 12:09 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for chuckr@Glue.umd.EDU id ; Thu, 21 Mar 96 12:09 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22938; Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:30:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:30:48 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9603210930.AA22938@wavehh.hanse.de> To: chuckr@Glue.umd.EDU Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internationalization Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.chat References: Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk chuckr@Glue.umd.EDU (Chuck Robey) wrote: >I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy >sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted >for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I >occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a >non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no >German section? Are a very large number of Germans content with English >programs, or is the interest not there, or are these things showing up on >different venues? >I don't speak German myself, but it does seem unreasonable, given the >size of the German audience. I would suppose this would go with equal >force for the French folks (I read the comments of many French FreeBSD >contributors with interest). Why is there no /usr/ports/french? I think the average Japan and Russia user is in a more diffucult situation, because a) English is teached to every school kid in germany (but not in the former DDR up to 19989) and b) German is quite similar to english. Personally, I like it the way it is. My english is far from perfect, but I really hate reading most German translations of computing documents. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer - BSD User Group Hamburg BSD, Lisp and other programming info http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 05:52:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA27439 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA27358 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id OAA23959 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:50:40 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA22862 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:50:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id OAA13522 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:29:55 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603211329.OAA13522@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: internationalization To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:29:54 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <9603210930.AA22938@wavehh.hanse.de> from "Martin Cracauer" at Mar 21, 96 10:30:48 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Martin Cracauer wrote: > I think the average Japan and Russia user is in a more diffucult > situation, because a) English is teached to every school kid in > germany (but not in the former DDR up to 19989) and b) German is quite > similar to english. Minor nit: about 60 ... 70 % of all school kids in GDR did also learn English, in addition to Russian. Or whaddaya think where i've learnt it? ;) (...as well as my last pieces of Russian that i haven't already forgotten again.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 06:01:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA27839 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA27831 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA23280 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:00:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199603211400.PAA23280@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: internationalization To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 14:57:41 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603210941.KAA12190@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from "J Wunsch" at Mar 21, 96 10:41 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As Chuck Robey wrote: > >> I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy >> sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted >> for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I >> occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a >> non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no >> German section? > > German is in the unusual advantage that it can be run with a simple > 8-bit clean environment without much tweaking, now that ISO-8859-1 is > de facto the default font for most things around here in a Unix > environment. It's not as simple as that. Most other Western European languages have this advantage as well, but in, say, France or Portugal you would probably find that a large number of people would prefer to have native language support. I certainly found this while helping out with Walnut Creek CDROM at the InfoForum in Paris last month: a large number of people were interested in FreeBSD, but didn't take it because there was no French language support. I think the reasons why Germans are not overly interested in German languages support are: 1. Traditionally, German documentation has been turgid and inaccurate. 2. There is no real standard for the terminology. 3. Germans speak relatively good English. 4. The people you're asking are on this list, which is in English. Ask a German language list and you might get a different kind of reply. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 08:16:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15616 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15599 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19406; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13441; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:15:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: Martin Cracauer cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <9603210930.AA22938@wavehh.hanse.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Martin Cracauer wrote: > chuckr@Glue.umd.EDU (Chuck Robey) wrote: > > >I am just a little puzzled on one point. In ports, we have a healthy > >sized couple of sections dedicated to ports that have been handcrafted > >for Russian and Japanese FreeBSDers. I was thinking about this, and I > >occurred to me that probably the largest group of FreeBSDers with a > >non-English home tongue would be the Germans. How come there is no > >German section? Are a very large number of Germans content with English > >programs, or is the interest not there, or are these things showing up on > >different venues? > > >I don't speak German myself, but it does seem unreasonable, given the > >size of the German audience. I would suppose this would go with equal > >force for the French folks (I read the comments of many French FreeBSD > >contributors with interest). Why is there no /usr/ports/french? > > I think the average Japan and Russia user is in a more diffucult > situation, because a) English is teached to every school kid in > germany (but not in the former DDR up to 19989) and b) German is quite > similar to english. > > Personally, I like it the way it is. My english is far from perfect, > but I really hate reading most German translations of computing > documents. Thanks, guys, (including Thomas Graichen's reply), it makes more sense now. ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 15:51:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA26526 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26517 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA12359 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:50:46 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA28382 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:50:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA14652 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:46:15 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603212346.AAA14652@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: internationalization To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:46:14 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603211400.PAA23280@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 21, 96 02:57:41 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > 4. The people you're asking are on this list, which is in English. > Ask a German language list and you might get a different kind of > reply. Not entirely true (there are German lists, but the people on them certainly don't want to convert the system into German --> ``Kein Streichholz'' :-) However, many ``common users'' around would appreciate it, i think. They are used to get ``Unerlaubte Schutzverletzung'' instead of ``General protection failure''. Nevertheless, the reason for establishing special ports for Japanese and Russian doesn't also hold for German. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 21 19:59:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA11269 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p2-11.intele.net [206.29.206.126]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA11262 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01323; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:00:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:00:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199603220400.VAA01323@obie.softweyr.com> From: wes@intele.net To: Jeffrey Hsu CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD be used in a commercial way? In-Reply-To: <199603200656.WAA08220@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199603200656.WAA08220@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey Hsu writes: > I thought the crucial difference was that Sun only got the rights to the > current version of SVR4, whereas SCO got the rights to the current and > future versions of SVR4, no? Sun got the right to the then-current SVR4, and "derived works" -- their own future versions. SCO got the same thing, plus the people and facilities that used to be USL. Sun probably didn't want that. ;^) X/Open got the right to define what "UNIX" is, and who can use the trademark. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 08:10:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA13120 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13114 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id LAA08709; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:08:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:08:34 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: March 21 snapshot? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought this fragment of my nightly mirror logs is amusing: package=freebsd ftp.freebsd.org:/pub/FreeBSD/ -> /var/spool/ftp/.1/freebsd/ Scanning local directory /var/spool/ftp/.1/freebsd/ Scanning remote directory /pub/FreeBSD/ compare directories (src 7302, dest 8835) Got 2.2-960321-SNAP/DONT_GRAB_THIS_YET 55 Got 2.2-960321-SNAP/src/ssmailcf.aa 56157 Got 2.2-960321-SNAP/src/susbin.ao 166973 [...] Should I put in some sort of rule into the mirror script to skip a package if it finds a file named "DONT_GRAB_THIS_YET"? :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 16:39:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA15830 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15824 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22350; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:37:22 -0800 (PST) To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: March 21 snapshot? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:08:34 EST." Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:37:22 -0800 Message-ID: <22347.827541442@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Should I put in some sort of rule into the mirror script to skip a > package if it finds a file named "DONT_GRAB_THIS_YET"? :) :-) Well, when your mirror deletes it again you'll know! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 16:49:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA16577 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16572 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22391; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:48:01 -0800 (PST) To: Paul Richards cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner), asami@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:44:50 GMT." <199603221644.QAA07073@tees> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:48:00 -0800 Message-ID: <22389.827542080@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected to -chat since I don't think that the CVS committers particularly want to join in what could be a protracted grammatical discussion :-)] > Now, the first draft of my Phd was returned with a big red message saying > "a unit, not an unit!". Now I was a little peeved about this since my FWIW, I've never seen "an unit" used anywhere on this side of the pond. Our english teacher taught us (way back in the late 70's) that `an' be used in front of words starting a, e, i or o. We never learned it as a general rule for vowels (especially since u and sometimes y fit that category, and you'd never say "an uniform" or "an yankee"). So if times they-are-a-changin' then perhaps only in the UK, since "an unit" has _always_ been considered incorrect over here, at least since I was in grade school. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 17:25:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA18717 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunrise.cs.berkeley.edu (sunrise.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA18712 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by sunrise.cs.berkeley.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA10970; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:26:00 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:26:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199603230126.RAA10970@sunrise.cs.berkeley.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <22389.827542080@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * [Redirected to -chat since I don't think that the CVS committers particularly * want to join in what could be a protracted grammatical discussion :-)] (Ok, but don't take me off the CC: list, I'm not on -chat) * FWIW, I've never seen "an unit" used anywhere on this side of the * pond. Our english teacher taught us (way back in the late 70's) that * `an' be used in front of words starting a, e, i or o. We never * learned it as a general rule for vowels (especially since u and * sometimes y fit that category, and you'd never say "an uniform" or "an * yankee"). haha | v Hmm. I always thought it's the pronounciation. If a `u' is pronounced like a `you', as in `unit' (`you-knit'), it's a consonant, and if it's pronounced like a weak `a', it's treated as a vowel as far as articles are concerned. What about `an unpleasent experience'? Do you say `a' here? Same for spelled-out consonants, like `X-rated' (ok ok stop laughing), I say `an X-rated movie', not `a'. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 18:09:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA20597 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20592 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA22840; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:08:03 -0800 (PST) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:26:00 PST." <199603230126.RAA10970@sunrise.cs.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:08:03 -0800 Message-ID: <22838.827546883@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmm. I always thought it's the pronounciation. If a `u' is > pronounced like a `you', as in `unit' (`you-knit'), it's a consonant, > and if it's pronounced like a weak `a', it's treated as a vowel as far > as articles are concerned. > > What about `an unpleasent experience'? Do you say `a' here? I think that words like `unpleasant' are a special case given that they're pronounced differently (you don't say "yoon-pleasant" unless you're from Scotland, and then nobody can understand your english anyway so it doesn't really matter). That's the key here, I think. If the starting `u' is *pronounced* like a `u' (yoo) then you say `a'. If its pronounced like `ah' or `uh' or something similar then the other rule kicks in. Don't forget, this is not so much a _grammatical_ rule that follows the lines of the alphabet, this is a *pronounciation* rule derived from the fact that saying things like "a apple" just doesn't roll off the tongue very well. Nobody ever said that english was a language that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native speakers learn it at all! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 22:00:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA01935 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01893 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:59:58 -0800 (PST) From: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA16378; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:55:38 -0500 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18038; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:33 -0500 (EST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Paul Richards , Bill Fenner , asami@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <22389.827542080@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > FWIW, I've never seen "an unit" used anywhere on this side of the > pond. Our english teacher taught us (way back in the late 70's) that > `an' be used in front of words starting a, e, i or o. We never > learned it as a general rule for vowels (especially since u and > sometimes y fit that category, and you'd never say "an uniform" or "an > yankee"). But then there are also those really tricky ones like "hotel" which can be "a hotel" one day, and "an hotel" the next! -- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 22 22:14:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA02323 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02318 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA23519; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:12:52 -0800 (PST) To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca cc: Paul Richards , Bill Fenner , asami@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:33 EST." Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:12:51 -0800 Message-ID: <23517.827561571@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But then there are also those really tricky ones like "hotel" > which can be "a hotel" one day, and "an hotel" the next! Huh. I've only ever seen "a hotel" myself! Perhaps the sign-painter outside of yours never went to school. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 00:46:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA10192 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10185 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA13426; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:45:41 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA15441; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:45:40 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA23918; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:37:36 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603230837.JAA23918@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:37:35 +0100 (MET) Cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <22838.827546883@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 22, 96 06:08:03 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Nobody ever said that english was a language > that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special > cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native > speakers learn it at all! Same holds true for German. Perhaps that's the reason why it ain't too difficult for us learning English? ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 04:12:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA19367 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 04:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA19361 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 04:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20243; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:13:34 +0200 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:13:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Satoshi Asami , p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <22838.827546883@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hmm. I always thought it's the pronounciation. If a `u' is > > pronounced like a `you', as in `unit' (`you-knit'), it's a consonant, > > and if it's pronounced like a weak `a', it's treated as a vowel as far > > as articles are concerned. > > > > What about `an unpleasent experience'? Do you say `a' here? > > I think that words like `unpleasant' are a special case given that > they're pronounced differently (you don't say "yoon-pleasant" unless > you're from Scotland, and then nobody can understand your english > anyway so it doesn't really matter). That's the key here, I think. > If the starting `u' is *pronounced* like a `u' (yoo) then you say `a'. > If its pronounced like `ah' or `uh' or something similar then the > other rule kicks in. > > Don't forget, this is not so much a _grammatical_ rule that follows > the lines of the alphabet, this is a *pronounciation* rule derived > from the fact that saying things like "a apple" just doesn't roll off > the tongue very well. Nobody ever said that english was a language > that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special > cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native > speakers learn it at all! > It isn't actually at all hard to learn - the trick allways is speak so that it sounds nice to your ears. That they you can get almost all of the grammar right (except for the commas). And there really aren't that many special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. > Jordan > Sander From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 11:12:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA04538 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04435 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA20226; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:11:04 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:11:02 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Satoshi Asami , p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <22838.827546883@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Nobody ever said that english was a language > that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special > cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native > speakers learn it at all! What? English? It's easy! Off the top of my head: Nouns English German nom-sng the heart der Knopf nom-plu the hearts die Knopfen acc-sng the heart den Knopf acc-plu the hearts die Knopfen dat-sng the heart dem Knopf dat-plu the hearts den Knopfen gen-sng the heart's des Knopfes gen-plu the hearts' der Knopfen English has only 4 noun forms, compared to German's 7 (and German, by far, is not a worst case; consider Kivunjo which has sixteen genders, including human singluar, human plural, thin or extended objects, objects that come in clusters, the clusters themselves, instruments, animals, body parts, diminutives, abstract qualities, precise locations, and general locations). If I wanted to, I could get into the ten declination types in German, but I don't. :) Once I was in a bar in Germany and I got into an argument with some real-live Germans about the gender of Apfelmuss (it's neuter, btw. :). One would think that applesauce would be a fairly common word... In my opinion, the less of such arguments that can happen in a language, the better. In English, well, geeks can work their lather up about VAX-VAXen, but any other arguments tend to be short-lived. Verbs English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while German has ten (kaufe, kaufst, kauft, kaufen, kaufte, kauftest, kauftet, kauften, gekauft, kaufend). For strong verbs in English, the count goes up to five (think) or six (drink). Of course, there's always Italian with its 36 or so (oso, osi, osa, osiamo, osate, osano, osavo, osavi, osava, osavamo, osavate, osavano, osai, osasti, oso`, osammo, osaste, osarono, osero`, oserai, osera`, oseremo, oserete, oseranno, oserei, oseresti, oserebbe, oseremmo, osereste, oserebbero, osiate, osino, osassi, osasse, osassimo, osassero, osato, osando), but I'm being unfair there becuase the tense system in Italian is still active (i.e., retains its meaning) and regular, unlike the case system in German. In some areas the verb forms of spoken German are being reduced as they were in English ({ich|wir|ihr|sie} hab', du has', er hat), so German may come out of the quagmire yet... :) Adjectives English has no cases, and adjectives do not have to agree in number with the noun. So, this leaves three forms (big, bigger, biggest). Spelling Spelling is, of course, the bane of English. Of course, English borrows the most heavily of any language, which makes it difficult. And English does have rules of spelling, they just differ based on the time the word entered the language. :) If you want a really good (bad?) example of vestigal spelling, though, you could always look at French, e.g., quel and quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. French las lost a gender distinction in the spoken language, but retained it in the written one! So in short, in my opinion the English language is one of the cleanest in design in many facets (and, of course, sucks in others). But it's definitely not appreciably more difficult than most other languages for non-native speakers to learn. Most people I've talked to who have learned English as one of *two* foreign languages have said that English was the easier of the two to learn (most people who know only Mother Tongue and English bitch about English because, well, foreign languages are more difficult to master than native ones :). Well, anyways, I've proselytized English enough for one day. Back to hacking! Marc. -- AMAZING BUT TRUE ... There is so much sand in Northern Africa that if it were spread out it would completely cover the Sahara Desert. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 13:00:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10550 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10545 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA07214; Sat, 23 Mar 96 21:00:03 GMT Message-Id: <9603232100.AA07214@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA185344812; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:00:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:00:12 -0700 From: Sean Kelly To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from Marc Ramirez on Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:11:02 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Marc" == Marc Ramirez writes: Marc> example of vestigal spelling, though, you could always look Marc> at French, e.g., quel and quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. [Kwel]? No way! It's [kel]! Quels temps fait-il!?! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 13:05:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10927 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10909 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA20699; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:05:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:05:02 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <9603232100.AA07214@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>> "Marc" == Marc Ramirez writes: > > Marc> example of vestigal spelling, though, you could always look > Marc> at French, e.g., quel and quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. > > [Kwel]? No way! It's [kel]! Quels temps fait-il!?! Whoops! Well paint me green and call me a pickle! Marc. -- Strangely enough, this is the past that somebody in the future is longing to go back to. -- Ashleigh Brilliant From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 13:35:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA13302 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13294 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20869; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:39:58 +0200 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:39:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Marc Ramirez wrote: > On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Nobody ever said that english was a language > > that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special > > cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native > > speakers learn it at all! > > What? English? It's easy! > > Off the top of my head: > > Nouns > > English German > nom-sng the heart der Knopf > nom-plu the hearts die Knopfen > acc-sng the heart den Knopf > acc-plu the hearts die Knopfen > dat-sng the heart dem Knopf > dat-plu the hearts den Knopfen > gen-sng the heart's des Knopfes > gen-plu the hearts' der Knopfen > > English has only 4 noun forms, compared to German's 7 (and German, by > far, is not a worst case; consider Kivunjo which has sixteen genders, > including human singluar, human plural, thin or extended objects, objects > that come in clusters, the clusters themselves, instruments, animals, > body parts, diminutives, abstract qualities, precise locations, and > general locations). If I wanted to, I could get into the ten declination > types in German, but I don't. :) What a wonderful system! The best design of a gender system for the words I've ever seen... Except of course those languages, which don't have any... > > Once I was in a bar in Germany and I got into an argument with some > real-live Germans about the gender of Apfelmuss (it's neuter, btw. :). > One would think that applesauce would be a fairly common word... In my > opinion, the less of such arguments that can happen in a language, the > better. In English, well, geeks can work their lather up about VAX-VAXen, > but any other arguments tend to be short-lived. > > Verbs > > English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while > German has ten (kaufe, kaufst, kauft, kaufen, kaufte, kauftest, kauftet, > kauften, gekauft, kaufend). For strong verbs in English, the count goes > up to five (think) or six (drink). Of course, there's always Italian with > its 36 or so (oso, osi, osa, osiamo, osate, osano, osavo, osavi, osava, > osavamo, osavate, osavano, osai, osasti, oso`, osammo, osaste, osarono, > osero`, oserai, osera`, oseremo, oserete, oseranno, oserei, oseresti, > oserebbe, oseremmo, osereste, oserebbero, osiate, osino, osassi, osasse, > osassimo, osassero, osato, osando), but I'm being unfair there becuase the > tense system in Italian is still active (i.e., retains its meaning) and > regular, unlike the case system in German. In some areas the verb forms of > spoken German are being reduced as they were in English ({ich|wir|ihr|sie} > hab', du has', er hat), so German may come out of the quagmire yet... :) > > Adjectives > > English has no cases, and adjectives do not have to agree in number with > the noun. So, this leaves three forms (big, bigger, biggest). > > Spelling > > Spelling is, of course, the bane of English. Of course, English borrows > the most heavily of any language, which makes it difficult. And English > does have rules of spelling, they just differ based on the time the word > entered the language. :) If you want a really good (bad?) example of > vestigal spelling, though, you could always look at French, e.g., quel and > quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. French las lost a gender distinction in > the spoken language, but retained it in the written one! > > So in short, in my opinion the English language is one of the cleanest in > design in many facets (and, of course, sucks in others). But it's All the indo-european languages are so funny and silly - first they divide the words into several (and totally unneeded) genders (after all, what information does it give to you that the word Ma"dchen is neutrum?), then they think up a whole lot of all kinds of articles, prepositions and other nonsense. sng. plu. ---------------------------------------------------------- 1.the head pea pead 2.the head's pea peade 3.the head pead peasid/pa"id 4.into the head peasse/pa"he peadesse 5.in the head peas peades 6.out of the head peast peadest 7.to the head peale peadele 8.(shows the ownership (the head own's) or the state) of the head peal peadel 9.from the head pealt peadelt 10.up to the head peani peadeni 11.as the head peana peadena 12.(to be, become, remain, etc) the head peaks peadeks 13.with the head peaga peadega 14.without the head peata peadeta NB! The head is the one you carry on your neck and where there are two alternatives for the form, you may use the one you like best. There is a place up there where the discription isn't clear (at least as I watch it myself, for others there might also be others), namely the 8th, but I can't help it. We use the 8th in sentences like: 1) The man has a gun 2) The mouse has buttons 3) The cat feels sick (all three word sentences) PS. It is as easy as that except that there are words where the root changes in the above-outlined process... :) As for the spelling... With the exception of couple of words, they all are written just as you pronunce them (so leaf would be liif, cow would be kau and so on) + words where there are only two consonants written but pronunced are three + everything written is always pronounce (you write kn in the beginning of the word, you pronounce it so, not as in know). > definitely not appreciably more difficult than most other languages for > non-native speakers to learn. Most people I've talked to who have learned > English as one of *two* foreign languages have said that English was the > easier of the two to learn (most people who know only Mother Tongue and > English bitch about English because, well, foreign languages are more > difficult to master than native ones :). > > Well, anyways, I've proselytized English enough for one day. Back to > hacking! > > Marc. > > -- > AMAZING BUT TRUE ... > > There is so much sand in Northern Africa that if it were spread out it > would completely cover the Sahara Desert. > > Sander Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 14:46:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA17007 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16952 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA01296; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:48 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20146; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id WAA25023; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:32:47 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232132.WAA25023@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:32:47 +0100 (MET) Cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Mar 23, 96 02:13:34 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Narvi wrote: > And there really aren't that many > special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which > gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should > consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. Well, languages with many different grammatical cases usually replace prepositions by cases. This is actually not much harder to learn than learning the correct usage of the prepositions. (I don't know about Hungarian that doesn't have prepositions, but i know it from Slavic languages.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 15:20:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18590 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18581 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA02129; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:43 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20384; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:43 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA26069; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:56:17 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232256.XAA26069@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:56:17 +0100 (MET) Cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 23, 96 02:11:02 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc Ramirez wrote: > Off the top of my head: > > Nouns > > English German > nom-sng the heart der Knopf > nom-plu the hearts die Knopfen die Knöpfe > acc-sng the heart den Knopf > acc-plu the hearts die Knopfen die Knöpfe > dat-sng the heart dem Knopf > dat-plu the hearts den Knopfen den Knöpfen > gen-sng the heart's des Knopfes > gen-plu the hearts' der Knopfen der Knöpfe Ya'know, we're proud of our umlauts. ;-) > Once I was in a bar in Germany and I got into an argument with some > real-live Germans about the gender of Apfelmuss (it's neuter, btw. :). It's neutral? Nope, it's actually maskulinum. :) (Both are valid.) > Verbs > > English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while ... The worst English has in this field is that its irregular verbs are being used in about 50 % of all verbs (my rough estimation). German is only slightly better, it's also proud of a long list of irregular verbs. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 16:12:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA21095 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21090 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id BAA24429 ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:12:01 +0100 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id BAA14160 ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:12:03 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id BAA09843; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:00:09 +0100 (MET) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199603240000.BAA09843@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:00:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat Mailing List) In-Reply-To: <9603232100.AA07214@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> from Sean Kelly at "Mar 23, 96 02:00:12 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1788 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Sean Kelly said: > Marc> example of vestigal spelling, though, you could always look > Marc> at French, e.g., quel and quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. > > [Kwel]? No way! It's [kel]! Quels temps fait-il!?! I don't want to nitpick anyone but as Sean is right on the pronunciation but I'm afraid it's "Quel temps fait-il?" as there is only "one" weather :-) "Quels" is the plural of "Quel". -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.frmug.fr.net FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #7: Mon Mar 18 21:28:18 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 23 19:14:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA21095 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21088 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA08068; Sun, 24 Mar 96 03:14:14 GMT Message-Id: <9603240314.AA08068@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA190657265; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:14:25 -0700 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:14:25 -0700 From: Sean Kelly To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603240000.BAA09843@keltia.freenix.fr> (message from Ollivier Robert on Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:00:09 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Ollivier" == Ollivier Robert writes: Ollivier> I don't want to nitpick anyone but as Sean is right on Ollivier> the pronunciation but I'm afraid it's "Quel temps Ollivier> fait-il?" as there is only "one" weather :-) Je dis: << doh! >> -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/