From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 02:55:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA24919 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 02:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA24912 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 02:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21870; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:58:58 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:58:58 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603232132.WAA25023@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Narvi wrote: > > > And there really aren't that many > > special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which > > gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should > > consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. > > Well, languages with many different grammatical cases usually replace > prepositions by cases. This is actually not much harder to learn than > learning the correct usage of the prepositions. (I don't know about > Hungarian that doesn't have prepositions, but i know it from Slavic > languages.) All Ugric and Finno-Ugric languages (languages of the people who started out near the Urals and moved to several different places in the Eurasia) do it that way. The way words are used is different from that of Indo-European languages - in stead of a complex system of preposition + sometimes also case system to acompany you just have the cases (and as there are no articles you just change the word). Sander > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:11:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA10359 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10286 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29861 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:09:59 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251009.LAA29861@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:06:28 MET From: Greg Lehey In-Reply-To: <22389.827542080@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 22, 96 4:48 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [Redirected to -chat since I don't think that the CVS committers particularly > want to join in what could be a protracted grammatical discussion :-)] Ah! A lingusitic discussion. Just what I like. You'll be sorry :-) >> Now, the first draft of my Phd was returned with a big red message saying >> "a unit, not an unit!". Now I was a little peeved about this since my > > FWIW, I've never seen "an unit" used anywhere on this side of the > pond. Our english teacher taught us (way back in the late 70's) that > `an' be used in front of words starting a, e, i or o. We never > learned it as a general rule for vowels (especially since u and > sometimes y fit that category, and you'd never say "an uniform" or "an > yankee"). That's a strange way to describe a relatively simple rule. Consider that the indefinite article in just about any language that has them is identical to the word for 'one'. It was in English, too, once upon a time. Thus, 'an' is really the normal form, and 'a' is an abbreviation. It got dropped in front of consonants. The question is not how you spell a word following an indefinite article, it's how you pronounce it. Most people pronounce 'unit' with a leading consonantal y, so it should be 'a unit'. Most people pronounce 'unpleasant' with a leading consonantal 'a', so it should be 'an unpleasant discovery'. The same applies for 'hotel'. Aspirate the h, and it's 'a hotel'. Drop the h, and it's 'an hotel'. > So if times they-are-a-changin' then perhaps only in the UK, since > "an unit" has _always_ been considered incorrect over here, at least > since I was in grade school. The times *are* a-changing in the UK. The pronounciation of the language has been changing for the past 500 years, and there's no evidence that it's done yet. Grreg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:14:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA10921 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10894 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00102 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:13:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251013.LAA00102@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:10:47 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603230837.JAA23918@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from "J Wunsch" at Mar 23, 96 9:37 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Nobody ever said that english was a language >> that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special >> cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native >> speakers learn it at all! > > Same holds true for German. Not at all. German is one of the most uniform languages in Europe, presumably because the syntax was defined, against common usage, by clerics who wanted to make it look more like Latin. Thus the verbs at the end of subordinate clauses--they didn't exist in German before the 15th century. > Perhaps that's the reason why it ain't too difficult for us learning > English? ;-) No, that's because English was originally also a German dialect (Saxon, even :-). Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:23:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA11457 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA11452 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01025 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:22:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251022.LAA01025@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:19:35 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 23, 96 2:11 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Nobody ever said that english was a language >> that made much sense, hell, it's a walking card-catalog of special >> cases. It's often a matter of great wonder to me that non-native >> speakers learn it at all! > > What? English? It's easy! > > Off the top of my head: > > Nouns > > English German > nom-sng the heart der Knopf > nom-plu the hearts die Knopfen > acc-sng the heart den Knopf > acc-plu the hearts die Knopfen > dat-sng the heart dem Knopf > dat-plu the hearts den Knopfen > gen-sng the heart's des Knopfes > gen-plu the hearts' der Knopfen > > English has only 4 noun forms, compared to German's 7 I don't understand what you're trying to say here. German still has a dative, which has all but completely disappeared in modern English. Apart from that, they're the same. > If I wanted to, I could get into the ten declination types in > German, but I don't. :) I don't understand this, either. > Verbs > > English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while > German has ten (kaufe, kaufst, kauft, kaufen, kaufte, kauftest, kauftet, > kauften, gekauft, kaufend). This argument is flawed. You're mixing endings and tenses. > If you want a really good (bad?) example of > vestigal spelling, though, you could always look at French, e.g., quel and > quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. French las lost a gender distinction in > the spoken language, but retained it in the written one! That depends on where in France you are. The 'e' at the end of 'quelle' is definitely pronounced in the South, and also for emphasis in the North. And this is just one aspect of gender. If somebody says "Tu es folle", you don't need to read it to know they're talking to a female. > So in short, in my opinion the English language is one of the cleanest in > design in many facets (and, of course, sucks in others). But it's > definitely not appreciably more difficult than most other languages for > non-native speakers to learn. Most people I've talked to who have learned > English as one of *two* foreign languages have said that English was the > easier of the two to learn (most people who know only Mother Tongue and > English bitch about English because, well, foreign languages are more > difficult to master than native ones :). I think I'd go for Spanish as easier than English. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:25:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA11535 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA11528 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01163 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:25:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251025.LAA01163@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:22:17 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu In-Reply-To: <199603232132.WAA25023@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from "J Wunsch" at Mar 23, 96 10:32 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Narvi wrote: > >> And there really aren't that many >> special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which >> gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should >> consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. > > Well, languages with many different grammatical cases usually replace > prepositions by cases. In fact, within the Indo-European languages, it's the other way round: older languages, such as Latin and Greek, use endings to indicate case, person, number and tense. Newer languages, such as English, replace them with prepositions. > This is actually not much harder to learn than learning the correct > usage of the prepositions. (I don't know about Hungarian that > doesn't have prepositions, but i know it from Slavic languages.) Precisely. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:32:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA11964 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA11951 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01533 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:31:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251031.LAA01533@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:28:43 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu In-Reply-To: <199603232256.XAA26069@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from "J Wunsch" at Mar 23, 96 11:56 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Marc Ramirez wrote: > >> Off the top of my head: >> >> Nouns >> >> English German >> nom-sng the heart der Knopf >> nom-plu the hearts die Knopfen > die Knöpfe >> acc-sng the heart den Knopf >> acc-plu the hearts die Knopfen > die Knöpfe >> dat-sng the heart dem Knopf >> dat-plu the hearts den Knopfen > den Knöpfen >> gen-sng the heart's des Knopfes >> gen-plu the hearts' der Knopfen > der Knöpfe > > Ya'know, we're proud of our umlauts. ;-) Even without, it's good to know the correct spelling (if you don't have an Umlaut, don't just replace Knöpfe with Knopfe; write Knoepfe instead). >> English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while > > ... > > The worst English has in this field is that its irregular verbs are > being used in about 50 % of all verbs (my rough estimation). > > German is only slightly better, it's also proud of a long list of > irregular verbs. I assume that, in both cases, you're talking about strong verbs. There aren't very many irregular verbs in German. Even the verbs for 'to be' aren't overly irregular, they're just multiple and incomplete (reduced to the (frequently non-existant) infinitive, they are sein, wesen, and bien). Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 02:36:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA12246 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA12178 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:35:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01747 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:35:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251035.LAA01747@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 11:32:24 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Narvi" at Mar 23, 96 11:39 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > All the indo-european languages are so funny and silly - first they > divide the words into several (and totally unneeded) genders (after all, > what information does it give to you that the word Ma"dchen is neutrum?), > then they think up a whole lot of all kinds of articles, prepositions and > other nonsense. > sng. plu. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > 1.the head pea pead > 2.the head's pea peade > (etc) Interesting. Are you going to tell us what language it is? Magyar? > There is a place up there where the discription isn't clear (at least > as I watch it myself, for others there might also be others), namely the > 8th, but I can't help it. > > We use the 8th in sentences like: > 1) The man has a gun > 2) The mouse has buttons > 3) The cat feels sick > (all three word sentences) Without articles, they're three word sentences in English, too. > As for the spelling... With the exception of couple of words, they all > are written just as you pronunce them (so leaf would be liif, cow > would be kau and so on) + words where there are only two consonants > written but pronunced are three + everything written is always pronounce > (you write kn in the beginning of the word, you pronounce it so, not as > in know). This applies to most languages. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 05:26:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA23537 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA23532 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24426; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:28:51 +0200 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:28:49 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603251035.LAA01741@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > All the indo-european languages are so funny and silly - first they > > divide the words into several (and totally unneeded) genders (after all, > > what information does it give to you that the word Ma"dchen is neutrum?), > > then they think up a whole lot of all kinds of articles, prepositions and > > other nonsense. > > sng. plu. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > 1.the head pea pead > > 2.the head's pea peade > > (etc) > > Interesting. Are you going to tell us what language it is? Magyar? Take a look at my mail address... It's estonian, of course. > > > There is a place up there where the discription isn't clear (at least > > as I watch it myself, for others there might also be others), namely the > > 8th, but I can't help it. > > > > We use the 8th in sentences like: > > 1) The man has a gun > > 2) The mouse has buttons > > 3) The cat feels sick > > (all three word sentences) > > Without articles, they're three word sentences in English, too. > That's not the point. The sentences were only meant as examples. > > As for the spelling... With the exception of couple of words, they all > > are written just as you pronunce them (so leaf would be liif, cow > > would be kau and so on) + words where there are only two consonants > > written but pronunced are three + everything written is always pronounce > > (you write kn in the beginning of the word, you pronounce it so, not as > > in know). > > This applies to most languages. Really? I can't think of too many words that would be spelled that they in either Englishor French. OK - there's ox and some others, as in german words are sometimes written almoust as pononuced - but not the vast majority. The exceptions in the abovenoted case are just two words. > > Greg > > Sander From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 05:34:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA23991 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA23951 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24454; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:35:36 +0200 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:35:35 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Greg Lehey cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603251025.LAA01163@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > As Narvi wrote: > > > >> And there really aren't that many > >> special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which > >> gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should > >> consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. > > > > Well, languages with many different grammatical cases usually replace > > prepositions by cases. > > In fact, within the Indo-European languages, it's the other way round: > older languages, such as Latin and Greek, use endings to indicate > case, person, number and tense. Newer languages, such as English, > replace them with prepositions. > Newer? Older? In real old Sanskrit and friends it wasn't so. But that isn't the thing that makes the grammars similar/different. It's not easier for me to learn Latin or Greek than any modern language as the "similarity might suggest. > > This is actually not much harder to learn than learning the correct > > usage of the prepositions. (I don't know about Hungarian that > > doesn't have prepositions, but i know it from Slavic languages.) How comes the slavic languages don't have prepositions? At least in Russian there are. > > Precisely. > Greg > Sander From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 05:37:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA24183 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA24173 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11551 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:36:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251336.OAA11551@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 14:33:47 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu In-Reply-To: ; from "Narvi" at Mar 25, 96 3:35 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> As Narvi wrote: >>> >>>> And there really aren't that many >>>> special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which >>>> gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should >>>> consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. >>> >>> Well, languages with many different grammatical cases usually replace >>> prepositions by cases. >> >> In fact, within the Indo-European languages, it's the other way round: >> older languages, such as Latin and Greek, use endings to indicate >> case, person, number and tense. Newer languages, such as English, >> replace them with prepositions. > > Newer? Older? In real old Sanskrit and friends it wasn't so. I thought Sanskrit made significant use of inflections. That doesn't stop it from having prepositions as well, of course--I specifically referred to "case, person, number and tense. > But that isn't the thing that makes the grammars > similar/different. It's not easier for me to learn Latin or Greek > than any modern language as the "similarity might suggest. Why should it be? I wouldn't see much in the way of similarity. >>> This is actually not much harder to learn than learning the correct >>> usage of the prepositions. (I don't know about Hungarian that >>> doesn't have prepositions, but i know it from Slavic languages.) > > How comes the slavic languages don't have prepositions? At least in > Russian there are. I'm not sure I understand this. Of course the slavic languages have prepositions. But Russian, like German, has a more inflected syntax than, say, English or French. I think that this is what the original poster (name lost) meant. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 05:55:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA25086 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA25081 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA00785; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:40:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:40:52 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603232256.XAA26069@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Marc Ramirez wrote: > > > Off the top of my head: > > > > [noun list] > > Ya'know, we're proud of our umlauts. ;-) Arrgh! Two major mistakes in the same message!! It was a bad weekend. :) > The worst English has in this field is that its irregular verbs are > being used in about 50 % of all verbs (my rough estimation). That seems at odds with the oft-touted statistic that eighty-someodd percent of English vocabulary is of Latin origin. Or do you mean 50% of usage? That could easily be true... Marc. -- "I hate it when my foot falls asleep during the day cause that means it's going to be up all night." -- Steven Wright From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 06:24:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA28086 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 06:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA28071 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 06:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14933 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:23:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199603251423.PAA14933@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 15:20:19 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 25, 96 8:40 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The worst English has in this field is that its irregular verbs are >> being used in about 50 % of all verbs (my rough estimation). > > That seems at odds with the oft-touted statistic that eighty-someodd > percent of English vocabulary is of Latin origin. Or do you mean 50% > of usage? That could easily be true... I'd take that claim (the 80%) with a pinch of salt. First, you need to define what the English vocabulary is. I've forgotten the exact number, but I read recently that the latest edition of the OED has about 200,000 words. I'd be quite prepared to believe that 160,000 of them are of Latin origin. But if you take the day-to-day vocabulary, it's much lower. Take this message (so far), for example: a German about all German are German at German be German being German believe German but claim Latin could German day German define Latin do German easily edition Latin eighty German english German estimation Latin exact Latin example Latin far German field German first German for German forgotten German has German i German if German in German irregular Latin is German latest German latin Latin lower German mean German message Latin much German my German need German number Latin odds of German oft German or German origin Latin percent Latin pinch prepared Latin quite read German recently Latin rough German salt seems German so German statistic Latin take German that German the German them German this German to German touted true German usage Latin used Latin verbs Latin vocabulary Latin what German with German words German worst German you German In this list, I have 19 words of Latin origin and 47 of German origin. Take a simpler discussion and you'll find that even a higher percentage is of German origin (look at the words and you'll see why). I can't easily decide where the words without an attribution come from, but there aren't that many. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 08:26:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA07143 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07131 Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA26422; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:24:43 GMT Received: from tees by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:19:07 +0000 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id QAA08863; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:25:03 GMT From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199603251625.QAA08863@tees> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:25:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: paul@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603230126.RAA10970@sunrise.cs.berkeley.edu> from "Satoshi Asami" at Mar 22, 96 05:26:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Satoshi Asami who said > > * [Redirected to -chat since I don't think that the CVS committers particularly > * want to join in what could be a protracted grammatical discussion :-)] > > (Ok, but don't take me off the CC: list, I'm not on -chat) > > * FWIW, I've never seen "an unit" used anywhere on this side of the > * pond. Our english teacher taught us (way back in the late 70's) that > * `an' be used in front of words starting a, e, i or o. We never > * learned it as a general rule for vowels (especially since u and > * sometimes y fit that category, and you'd never say "an uniform" or "an > * yankee"). Hmm that's interesting, 'u' is definately a vowel, there are 5 vowels that's pretty much written in stone but it looks like some english teachers are changing the teaching of 'an' to not cover all vowels, making 'u' a special case. > Hmm. I always thought it's the pronounciation. If a `u' is > pronounced like a `you', as in `unit' (`you-knit'), it's a consonant, > and if it's pronounced like a weak `a', it's treated as a vowel as far > as articles are concerned. Yeah, that's what my little bit of research turned up which goes against what I was taught in school. Note that I had straight A grades for English when I left school which is not a claim that I know what I'm talking about but rather a claim that the expectations must have changed or I would have been getting things wrong at the time which I wasn't (about 12 years ago that would have been). > > What about `an unpleasent experience'? Do you say `a' here? > > Same for spelled-out consonants, like `X-rated' (ok ok stop laughing), > I say `an X-rated movie', not `a'. Well, what we say and what correctly written English would be are rather different. I say 'an' a lot of times in speech when it would be wrong when written but I think that's what's happening anyway, spoken English is changing and written English is evolving to reflect that. English has always gone through this process, it's just interesting to be able to actually watch an aspect of this processes taking place. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 08:27:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA07194 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from psiint.com (vv.psiint.com [204.189.53.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07185 Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by psiint.com (8.6.12/4.03) id IAA67922; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:27:20 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Walton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, Paul Richards , Bill Fenner , asami@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <23517.827561571@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But then there are also those really tricky ones like "hotel" > > which can be "a hotel" one day, and "an hotel" the next! > > Huh. I've only ever seen "a hotel" myself! Perhaps the sign-painter > outside of yours never went to school. :-) As with words starting with "u", this depends on how you pronounce the first letter of the word. Or, in this case, WHETHER you pronounce it. Thus, you use "a hotel" or "an 'otel", depending on your local dialect. Dave ========================================================================== David Walton Unix Programmer PSI INTERNATIONAL, Inc. email: dwalton@psiint.com 190 South Orchard #C200 Fax :(707)451-6484 Vacaville, CA 95688 Phone:(707)451-3503 ========================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 08:34:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA07700 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07627 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA26442 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:31:39 GMT Received: from tees by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:25:35 +0000 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id QAA08872; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:31:20 GMT From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199603251631.QAA08872@tees> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:31:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, fenner@parc.xerox.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Mar 23, 96 02:13:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Narvi who said > > It isn't actually at all hard to learn - the trick allways is speak so > that it sounds nice to your ears. That they you can get almost all of the > grammar right (except for the commas). And there really aren't that many > special cases (I haven't yet found out how you make sure from which > gender a given word is other than learning by heart). Perhaps you should > consider hard languages in which there are 14 or more cases. > Actually, that's a really bad thing to do. English has rather bizarre grammatical rules that have nothing to do with the way we speak it. I think that's basically the issue, the rules are evolving to match the different way we know speak. If you find a dictionary that's, say, 20 years old it categorically states that it should be 'an' before vowels and that the vowels are 'a, e, i, o and u'. Modern dictionaries tend to say the same thing mostly but I have found other grammatical texts that state that 'a' can be used before 'u' depending on pronunciation. Basically, "we just don't talk proper no more" :-) I neatly side-tracked the whole issue in my thesis my changin all occurences of unit to node :-) -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 13:24:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06127 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06086 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA10553 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:23:55 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA12271 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:23:57 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id WAA10510 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:01:06 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603252101.WAA10510@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:01:06 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199603251022.LAA01025@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 25, 96 11:19:35 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > I think I'd go for Spanish as easier than English. I agree, though i've never managed to learn it well enough in order to really speak it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 13:24:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06220 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06162 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA10573 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:24:23 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA12299 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:24:25 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id WAA10566 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:05:49 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603252105.WAA10566@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:05:49 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 25, 96 08:40:52 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc Ramirez wrote: > > The worst English has in this field is that its irregular verbs are > > being used in about 50 % of all verbs (my rough estimation). > > That seems at odds with the oft-touted statistic that eighty-someodd > percent of English vocabulary is of Latin origin. Or do you mean 50% > of usage? That could easily be true... Yup, this was about the actual usage. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 17:07:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23466 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23439 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA03645; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:06:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:06:53 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603251022.LAA00988@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > English has only 4 noun forms, compared to German's 7 > > I don't understand what you're trying to say here. German still has a > dative, which has all but completely disappeared in modern English. > Apart from that, they're the same. My point was that nouns in English inflect for less than in German, and since there's no need for article-noun aggreement, this adds up to less rules to learn. Of course, English just shifts the complexity... (Hmmm, I need to express future tense; should I use 'about to', 'fixing to', 'going to', or 'will'?) So it's easier to get yourself understood, but harder to express shades of meaning. > > If I wanted to, I could get into the ten declination types in > > German, but I don't. :) > > I don't understand this, either. Umlauting rules left over from Proto-Germanic. Analogous to English drink umlauting to drank and drunk and sing to sang, sung but think (same vowel) umlauting to thought, thought. And work, a different vowel from think, umlauting to wrought, wrought. Of course, in Old English the verbs were singan, drincan, thencan, and wercan... there the umlauting was regular. English has few such rules (work, for example, has already been regularized), which is the only point I was trying to make. And as time goes on, such irregularities will go away. If you listen on the streets of the US, in many places the third person singuar inflection has disappeared, and 'to be' has been regularized in conjugation as well 'I be, you be, he be, we be, I was, you was, we was, etc.) The times, they are a-changin'. > > Verbs > > > > English has four forms for weak verbs (walk, walks, walked, walking) while > > German has ten (kaufe, kaufst, kauft, kaufen, kaufte, kauftest, kauftet, > > kauften, gekauft, kaufend). > > This argument is flawed. You're mixing endings and tenses. I am mixing endings and tenses, yes, but they are both inflections. Again, English inflects less information into its particles, which means a student doesn't have to learn a gender and case marker to use a word. > > If you want a really good (bad?) example of > > vestigal spelling, though, you could always look at French, e.g., quel and > > quelle, both pronounced [kwel]. French las lost a gender distinction in > > the spoken language, but retained it in the written one! > > That depends on where in France you are. The 'e' at the end of > 'quelle' is definitely pronounced in the South, and also for emphasis > in the North. And this is just one aspect of gender. If somebody > says "Tu es folle", you don't need to read it to know they're talking > to a female. This is true. Of course, my grandparents still use 'hit' for the neuter pronoun... (Of course, they don't use the dual pronouns anymore, so there's still hope for them) > I think I'd go for Spanish as easier than English. :) Marc. -- A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 18:12:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA28435 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28422 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA03967; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:12:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:12:41 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603251013.LAA00102@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Thus the verbs at > the end of subordinate clauses--they didn't exist in German before the > 15th century. (my god, I'm citing Althochdeutsch. WHERE WILL THE MADNESS STOP?) >From the Muspilli, late 9th century. Below each line is a word-for-word translation into whatever language has the best cognate. Parenthetical expressions are for understanding only... doh uuanit des vilo ... gotmanno -> doch waehnen die Viele ... Gottesmaenner daz Elias in demo uuige aruuarit uuerde, -> dass Elias in dem /war/ ruiniert werde, so daz Eliases pluot in erda kitriufit, -> so dass Eliases Blut in Erd trieft, so inprinnant die perga, poum ni gistentit -> so entbrennen die Berge, Baum nicht steht (fest) enihc in erdu, aha artruknet, -> einig (/any/) in Erd, /aqua/ austrocknen, muor varsuuilhit sih, suilizot lougiu der himil, -> /moors/ verschlukken sich, /swelter (burn)/ lange der Himmel, mano vallit, prinnit mittilagart, ... -> Mond faellt, brennt mittel/yard/ (die Welt) ... Marc. -- "All the parts falling off this car are of the very finest British manufacture" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 19:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA06012 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06003 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA04259; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:26:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:26:05 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Greg Lehey , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk $*!$%*!$! I did it again! s/Erd/Erde/g If I keep this conversation up much longer, I'm going to need to go out and buy a dictionary... On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Marc Ramirez wrote: > On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Thus the verbs at > > the end of subordinate clauses--they didn't exist in German before the > > 15th century. > > (my god, I'm citing Althochdeutsch. WHERE WILL THE MADNESS STOP?) > > >From the Muspilli, late 9th century. Below each line is a word-for-word > translation into whatever language has the best cognate. Parenthetical > expressions are for understanding only... > > doh uuanit des vilo ... gotmanno [ blah blah blah ] -- There are 9 results in there; it looks like it's going to be tedious, and indeed it is. -- Discrete Math class (and indeed it was . . .) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 23:36:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA17164 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17157 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02239 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:36:02 +0100 Message-Id: <199603260736.IAA02239@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 8:33:12 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 25, 96 8:06 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> English has only 4 noun forms, compared to German's 7 >> >> I don't understand what you're trying to say here. German still has a >> dative, which has all but completely disappeared in modern English. >> Apart from that, they're the same. > > My point was that nouns in English inflect for less than in German, and > since there's no need for article-noun aggreement, this adds up to less > rules to learn. Of course, English just shifts the complexity... (Hmmm, I > need to express future tense; should I use 'about to', 'fixing to', 'going > to', or 'will'?) So it's easier to get yourself understood, but harder to > express shades of meaning. That makes more sense. But it's a moot point whether it's easier to learn endings or auxiliary verbs and prepositions. >>> If I wanted to, I could get into the ten declination types in >>> German, but I don't. :) >> >> I don't understand this, either. > > Umlauting rules left over from Proto-Germanic. Analogous to English drink > umlauting to drank and drunk and sing to sang, sung but think (same vowel) > umlauting to thought, thought. And work, a different vowel from think, > umlauting to wrought, wrought. Of course, in Old English the verbs were > singan, drincan, thencan, and wercan... there the umlauting was regular. Hmm. Aren't we talking about a different kind of Umlaut here, the so-called i-Umlaut which hit German in the 13th century? It hit English, too, but they didn't bother to introduce a symbolism to indicate it--that's one of the reasons why English vowels are so difficult to guess. How do you pronounce the 'a' in 'tomato'? With or without i-Umlaut. > English has few such rules (work, for example, has already been > regularized), which is the only point I was trying to make. And as time > goes on, such irregularities will go away. I don't know if I'd call that an irregularity. The word has been weakened. > If you listen on the streets of the US, in many places the third > person singuar inflection has disappeared, and 'to be' has been > regularized in conjugation as well 'I be, you be, he be, we be, I > was, you was, we was, etc.) The times, they are a-changin'. It'll be interesting to see what influence street language has on the mainstream language. I think it's fair to assume that it's not doing anything towards unifying the language, though. I would imagine that the developments in street language in Los Angeles, Cincinnati, Miami, New York, London and Sydney would have little in common. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 23:42:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA17367 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17361 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02520 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:42:01 +0100 Message-Id: <199603260742.IAA02520@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 8:39:10 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 25, 96 9:12 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Thus the verbs at >> the end of subordinate clauses--they didn't exist in German before the >> 15th century. > > (my god, I'm citing Althochdeutsch. WHERE WILL THE MADNESS STOP?) Wait until I've finished quoting Anglo-Saxon :-) > From the Muspilli, late 9th century. Below each line is a word-for-word > translation into whatever language has the best cognate. Parenthetical > expressions are for understanding only... > > doh uuanit des vilo ... gotmanno > > -> doch waehnen die Viele ... Gottesmaenner > > daz Elias in demo uuige aruuarit uuerde, > > -> dass Elias in dem /war/ ruiniert werde, > > so daz Eliases pluot in erda kitriufit, > > -> so dass Eliases Blut in Erd trieft, > > so inprinnant die perga, poum ni gistentit > > -> so entbrennen die Berge, Baum nicht steht (fest) > > enihc in erdu, aha artruknet, > > -> einig (/any/) in Erd, /aqua/ austrocknen, > > muor varsuuilhit sih, suilizot lougiu der himil, > > -> /moors/ verschlukken sich, /swelter (burn)/ lange der Himmel, > > mano vallit, prinnit mittilagart, ... > > -> Mond faellt, brennt mittel/yard/ (die Welt) ... It's interesting how incomprehensible this is. The Anglo-Saxon of a couple of centuries before is much more like modern German. Sorry, I don't have anything here to quote from. Still, the endings are very different. What dialect is this? The fact that the verbs are at the end of the clause in these examples is not of any particular significance. German epic poetry was hardly an example of typical use of language. My quotation was from Adolf Bach, "Eine Geschichte der deutschen Sprache" (or some such), which I also don't have here with me. How does this compare to Old Icelandic? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 00:28:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA20082 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20070 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA02937 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:17:36 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA17893 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:17:38 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA13797 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:14:16 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603260814.JAA13797@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:14:15 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 25, 96 09:12:41 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc Ramirez wrote: > (my god, I'm citing Althochdeutsch. WHERE WILL THE MADNESS STOP?) :-) This Althochdeutsch is an interesting language... i've seen it in school some day, about 20 years back, but certainly nobody here would manage to understand it immediately today. (Wonder where you've learnt it... ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 01:55:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA24159 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24151 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA10966 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:54:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199603260954.KAA10966@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 10:51:36 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603260814.JAA13797@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from "J Wunsch" at Mar 26, 96 9:14 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As Marc Ramirez wrote: > >> (my god, I'm citing Althochdeutsch. WHERE WILL THE MADNESS STOP?) > >: -) > > This Althochdeutsch is an interesting language... i've seen it in > school some day, about 20 years back, but certainly nobody here would > manage to understand it immediately today. The trouble with old German is that there were many dialects, and there are extremely few written records. About the only exception is Anglo-Saxon, of which ample records exist. In present-day Germany, just about all written records of the time were written in Latin, and the few records in vernacular tend to be poems, such as the one Marc quoted, or of religious nature. It's interesting to note that the development of the German language has been intimately linked to the Church. The original conversion of present-day Germany was done by Anglo-Saxon monks; is this one of the reasons why modern German appears closer to 8th century Anglo-Saxon than to 9th century German poetry? Or is it that 9th century German poetry had little to do with the vernacular? The poem that Marc quoted isn't the only one like that; the Hildebrandslied is better known, but equally unintelligible. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 04:19:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA01288 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA01271 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA08008; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:17:57 +0100 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199603261217.NAA08008@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: DOSEMU Project To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:17:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu In-Reply-To: <1322.827839641@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 26, 96 03:27:21 am" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I've hacked VMS - no form of torture can make me talk! :-) Ve have our vays. tg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 04:46:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA02381 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elbe.desy.de (elbe.desy.de [131.169.82.208]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA02375 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:45:54 -0800 (PST) From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 13:44:38 +0100 Message-Id: <9603261244.AA15184@elbe.desy.de> To: lehey.pad@sni.de Subject: Re: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg: > The trouble with old German is that there were many dialects, and > there are extremely few written records. About the only exception is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And even those extremely few written records are called 'Althochdeutsch'. It has probably never been used otherwise. The first rather commonly spoken and written 'Hochdeutsch' is that initially used by Luther and D\"urer (who have 'looked onto the people's mouth'). The first obligatory German spelling and pronunciation rules are now 94 years old (and only very few people know about the latter). Lars From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 05:49:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA05505 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA05467 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29517 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:48:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199603261348.OAA29517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) To: lars@elbe.desy.de (Lars Gerhard Kuehl) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:45:35 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9603261244.AA15184@elbe.desy.de>; from "Lars Gerhard Kuehl" at Mar 26, 96 1:44 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The trouble with old German is that there were many dialects, and >> there are extremely few written records. About the only exception is > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > And even those extremely few written records are called 'Althochdeutsch'. > It has probably never been used otherwise. The first rather commonly > spoken and written 'Hochdeutsch' is that initially used by Luther and > D\"urer (who have 'looked onto the people's mouth'). Recall, of course, that "Hochdeutsch" was originally a geographical distinction, not an opinion of quality. Niederdeutsch is alive and well and living in the low countries (again, not an opinion of quality). > The first obligatory German spelling and pronunciation rules are now > 94 years old (and only very few people know about the latter). Yep, I know lots of people who don't know correct pronounciation nor spelling. Of course, that doesn't make much difference to a written language. Why 94 years, anyway? I thought my old Duden was over 100 years old. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 06:12:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA06824 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from red-06-imc.itg.microsoft.com (red-06-imc.itg.microsoft.com [131.107.3.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA06819 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by red-06-imc.itg.microsoft.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BB1ADB.4AD4F150@red-06-imc.itg.microsoft.com>; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:13:03 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Florent Pitoun (Itl Temp)" To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: How to unsuscribe? Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:09:28 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk can someone send me the exact syntax to unsuscribe to this mailing list. thx From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 11:23:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA09608 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09498 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA26980; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:21:39 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA23408; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:21:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id TAA15164; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:12:17 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603261812.TAA15164@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: How to unsuscribe? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:12:17 +0100 (MET) Cc: i-flopit@microsoft.com (Florent Pitoun) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Florent Pitoun" at Mar 26, 96 06:09:28 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Florent Pitoun wrote: > can someone send me the exact syntax to unsuscribe to this mailing list. As usual. Send a message with ``unsubscribe'' in the body to freebsd-chat-request@freebsd.org This is actually the `generic' way for any mailing list, regardless of whether it's being managed automatically or manually. For this list, you can also write unsubscribe freebsd-chat [your subscription address if needed] to majordomo@freebsd.org. Majordomo told you about this when you've been subscribing. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 17:17:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23238 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23230 Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603270117.RAA23230@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) To: lars@elbe.desy.de (Lars Gerhard Kuehl) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:17:12 -0800 (PST) Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9603261244.AA15184@elbe.desy.de> from "Lars Gerhard Kuehl" at Mar 26, 96 01:44:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lars Gerhard Kuehl wrote: > > > Greg: > > > The trouble with old German is that there were many dialects, and > > there are extremely few written records. About the only exception is > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > And even those extremely few written records are called 'Althochdeutsch'. > It has probably never been used otherwise. The first rather commonly > spoken and written 'Hochdeutsch' is that initially used by Luther and > D\"urer (who have 'looked onto the people's mouth'). The first obligatory ^^^^^^^^^^ "obligatory" ?? by grammarians or actually legal obligations regarding spelling and speech?? > German spelling and pronunciation rules are now 94 years old (and only > very few people know about the latter). > > Lars > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 17:36:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26937 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26929 for freebsd-chat; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:36:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603270136.RAA26929@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: remember mary baker and kevin lai? To: freebsd-chat Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:36:19 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mary baker and kevin lai presented a paper at this winter's usenix conference comparing FreeBSD linux and solaris on the same hardware. you all may remember there conclusions: linux is not the fastest but it doesnt matter. kevin has a new "data point" regarding NFS caching and the performance of linux vs FreeBSD. he chose FreeBSD because "it's considered to have a high performance NFS implementation." and "its more efficient networking implementation" the result is that linux does NFS caching. cached reads are faster :) http://plastique.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/cached-nfs-results.html ps. plesae excuse the tone of this post, i have toned it down twice. before judging me too harshly please read the web page. -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 17:51:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29771 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:51:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29761 Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:51:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603270151.RAA29761@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: How to unsuscribe? To: i-flopit@microsoft.com (Florent Pitoun) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:51:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Florent Pitoun" at Mar 26, 96 06:09:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Florent Pitoun wrote: > > can someone send me the exact syntax to unsuscribe to this mailing list. > thx > send mail to majordomo@freebsd.org first line should be "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" second line should be "help" last line "end" we use majordomo, a very popular mail list tool. it si worthwhile spending a few minutes reading the help message and trying out the commands. new day, new tool to learn( i am doing mh now ;) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 19:06:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA07731 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07717 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohoro.acs.ohio-state.edu (ts27-5.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.114.60]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16628 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:06:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:06:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603270306.WAA16628@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: bohoro@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Brian O'Horo" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe _______________________________________ Brian O'Horo bohoro@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~ohoro/ _______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 22:52:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA00801 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00794 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA11141; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:52:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:52:22 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT In-Reply-To: <199603260814.JAA13797@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > This Althochdeutsch is an interesting language... i've seen it in > school some day, about 20 years back, but certainly nobody here would > manage to understand it immediately today. Nor would I expect an English speaker to understand Old English. In fact, you'd probably have an easier time understanding OE than most English speakers. "Her Cynewulf benam Sigebryht his rices ..." -> "Hier Cynewulf benahm Sigebryht seines Reiches ..." The verb 'niman' completely disappeared, being replaced by Old Norse 'taka', and OE 'rice' only survives in the modern 'rich'... > (Wonder where you've learnt it... ;) It was a cruel joke my German teachers played on me. :) Marc. -- Confucius says: Man who go to bed with itchy booty wake up with smelly finger. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 23:29:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA02886 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02879 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19690 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:27:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199603270727.IAA19690@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 8:24:56 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603270117.RAA23230@freefall.freebsd.org>; from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Mar 26, 96 5:17 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Lars Gerhard Kuehl wrote: >> >>> The trouble with old German is that there were many dialects, and >>> there are extremely few written records. About the only exception is >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> And even those extremely few written records are called 'Althochdeutsch'. >> It has probably never been used otherwise. The first rather commonly >> spoken and written 'Hochdeutsch' is that initially used by Luther and >> D\"urer (who have 'looked onto the people's mouth'). The first obligatory > ^^^^^^^^^^ > "obligatory" ?? by grammarians or actually legal obligations > regarding spelling and speech?? By grammarians. France is the only country I know of with legal obligations regarding speech. You can tell the difference. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 23:43:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA03453 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA03415 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA12440; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:43:00 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA29378; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:43:00 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id IAA19179; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:14:03 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603270714.IAA19179@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: your mail To: bohoro@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Brian O'Horo) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:14:03 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603270306.WAA16628@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> from "Brian O'Horo" at Mar 26, 96 10:06:47 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian O'Horo wrote: > unsubscribe > _______________________________________ > Brian O'Horo > bohoro@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~ohoro/ > _______________________________________ Oh boy! Do you ever get it? Two hours before this 3134134th attempt to unsubscribe by bothering the entire list, Jonathan has been describing the exact procedure on how to do it. Guys, when in doubt, do NEVER use the list address, do ALWAYS append the work ``-request'' to the address for such things. This is about rule #1 for Internet mailing lists! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 23:53:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA04459 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04418 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20697 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:52:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199603270752.IAA20697@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 8:49:22 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 27, 96 1:52 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > >> This Althochdeutsch is an interesting language... i've seen it in >> school some day, about 20 years back, but certainly nobody here would >> manage to understand it immediately today. > > Nor would I expect an English speaker to understand Old English. In > fact, you'd probably have an easier time understanding OE than most > English speakers. "Her Cynewulf benam Sigebryht his rices ..." -> "Hier > Cynewulf benahm Sigebryht seines Reiches ..." The verb 'niman' completely > disappeared, being replaced by Old Norse 'taka', and OE 'rice' only survives > in the modern 'rich'... I suspect that Joerg would also understand this quote (from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle) better than he would understand old German of the epoch. This is what I was referring to yesterday. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 01:59:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA13081 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from elbe.desy.de (elbe.desy.de [131.169.82.208]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13071 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 10:59:01 +0100 Message-Id: <9603270959.AA16253@elbe.desy.de> To: lehey.pad@sni.de Subject: Re: Althochdeutsch (was: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Recall, of course, that "Hochdeutsch" was originally a geographical > distinction, not an opinion of quality. Niederdeutsch is alive and > well and living in the low countries (again, not an opinion of > quality). Of course Niederdeutsch is alive even like Oberdeutsch. Hochdeutsch is mostly the merger of niederdeutscher vowels with oberdeutscher consonants. > language. Why 94 years, anyway? I thought my old Duden was over 100 > years old. In 1902 and 1904 the rules of merging were officially defined (by appointment of Wilhelm II). Of course the idea was older and dates back the first half of the 19th century. Lars From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 03:33:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA21362 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.com ([199.232.245.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA21357 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA05054; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:23:28 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199603271123.GAA05054@hda.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/bpatch/pkg COMMENT To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:23:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: hdalog@zipnet.net In-Reply-To: from "Marc Ramirez" at Mar 27, 96 01:52:22 am Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Nor would I expect an English speaker to understand Old English. In > fact, you'd probably have an easier time understanding OE than most > English speakers. "Her Cynewulf benam Sigebryht his rices ..." -> "Hier > Cynewulf benahm Sigebryht seines Reiches ..." The verb 'niman' completely > disappeared, being replaced by Old Norse 'taka', and OE 'rice' only survives > in the modern 'rich'... For the curious: http://icg.harvard.edu/~oe102/CynewulfText.html -- Temporarily via "hdalog@zipnet.net"... Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 10:51:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA17580 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from glucose.phbtsus.com (glucose.phbtsus.com [192.40.29.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA17575 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:51:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603271851.KAA17575@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by glucose.phbtsus.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA05316; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:00:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:00:23 -0700 From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: NFS benchmarks (was: remember mary baker and kevin lai?) In-Reply-To: <199603271716.KAA00212@obie.softweyr.com> References: <199603271716.KAA00212@obie.softweyr.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler recently said: > mary baker and kevin lai presented a paper at this winter's usenix > conference comparing FreeBSD linux and solaris on the same > hardware. you all may remember there conclusions: linux is not the > fastest but it doesnt matter. > > kevin has a new "data point" regarding NFS caching and the > performance of linux vs FreeBSD. he chose FreeBSD because "it's > considered to have a high performance NFS implementation." and > "its more efficient networking implementation" > > the result is that linux does NFS caching. cached reads are faster :) Of course, it was a very unbalanced review; he never bothered attempting to read data that was being changed on the server! One of the biggest headaches in NFS performance is reading files that cannot be cached, because they are dynamically updated. If you use NFS for sharing executables, this is of little concern; executables are not changed that often (at least not on my systems). If you use NFS for databases, or source code repositories (CVS, RCS, etc) for software developers, this is a critical point. All in all, it was an amateurish and limited benchmark. Perhaps Ms. Baker and Mr. Lai should read a few *GOOD* magazine reviews before attempting to embarass themselves so publicly in the future? I suggest looking up any of the reviews from the _Advanced Systems_ (alas, now defunct) ASTC; they were marvelous. The current test center in _Unix Review_ is coming along nicely, and I hope they will soon be as good as the ASTC was. > ps. plesae excuse the tone of this post, i have toned it down twice. > before judging me too harshly please read the web page. I'm glad you took the time to edit your posting; this one was well stated and not at all flammable. That Linux crowd! ;^) -- I'd rather be sailing. Wes Peters the briney, briney deep wes@intele.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 14:35:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA07022 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.local (slip139-92-42-162.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06897 Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.jhs.local (8.7.3/8.6.9) id JAA00532; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:23:15 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:23:15 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199603220823.JAA00532@vector.jhs.local> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Training From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (pending modem change) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH [version 1.6.5 95 12 11], PGP available Status: Bulk Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To chat@freebsd.org, Bcc: [ freebsd-cd@Julian's_host, friday@Julian's_host ] THIS MAIL IS _CHAT_ , NOT IMPORTANT, & YOU CAN SKIP IT IF BUSY :-) :-) I was training 18 people in Unix System Administration the last 2 weeks; Linux was the pre-installed base. So I bought 10 FreeBSD 2.1 CD-ROMs, so the students could have some wider experience of both Berkeley & System 5 type facilities. We had problems with both OS's of course {lack of experience, time, & skewed installation mainly}. Some prefered FreeBSD, some Linux, but now they too have seen Linux isnt the only free Unix in Germany (common misconception here). I confined teaching to `mainstream' generic BSD & S5 Unix, & avoided Linux & FreeBSD specifics (they don't know which Unix they will end up on at work, & hardware may not be an Intel type PC anyway ). I mentioned Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD (& 386BSD & Mach), & the relative strong points of NetBSD (other archs.), Linux (wide range of new drivers), & FreeBSD (300 ports, & high net/server performance) ... & strongly preached the ethos of not making sweeping negative comparisons, but cross contributing good source between platforms, to mutual benefit :-) I invited them to install FreeBSD at home & try it, & supplied some CDs :-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ (PGP available) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 02:34:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA15368 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.22.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15356 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:34:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603281034.CAA15356@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: from csmd49.cs.uni-magdeburg.de by csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA12632; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:37:49 +0100 Received: by csmd49.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA042429469; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:37:49 +0100 From: Roland Jesse Subject: Re: Training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:37:49 +0100 (MEZ) In-Reply-To: <199603220823.JAA00532@vector.jhs.local> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Mar 22, 96 09:23:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME6] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Julian H. Stacey: ... > Some prefered FreeBSD, some Linux, but now they too have seen Linux isnt > the only free Unix in Germany (common misconception here). Which CDs did you used ? The ones from WC ? In a bookstore someone tould me that there should be FreeBSD CDs from Addison Wesley available. That was in January. Even today I am waiting for them... :( Roland -- "Who the hell is General Failure?" - "And why is he reading my harddisk?" -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Roland (rj,-) Jesse, | | stud.rer.nat. et phil. http://www.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/~jesse/ | +------ pgp public key via keyserver or mail with subject ##key ------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 03:24:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA06022 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 03:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.101]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA06017 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 03:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00393; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:25:51 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA00422; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:23:00 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603291123.MAA00422@ida.interface-business.de> Subject: just for fun To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:22:59 +0100 (MET) Cc: holm@geophysik.tu-freiberg.de (Holm Tiffe), joerg@ida.interface-business.de (Joerg Weber) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de (Joerg Wunsch) X-Phone: +49-351-31809-14 X-Fax: +49-351-3361187 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk j@bonnie 51% uname -a FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 j@bonnie 52% uptime 12:17pm up 99 days, 21:28, 4 users, load average: 0.34, 0.14, 0.05 Pity, they have to shutdown their machines tonight, due to a scheduled power outage (repair). That's one of the stablest FreeBSD systems i've ever seen. -- J"org Wunsch Unix support engineer joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de http://www.interface-business.de/~j From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 04:40:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA09621 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.22.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09558 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:39:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603291239.EAA09558@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: from csmd49.cs.uni-magdeburg.de by csmd.cs.uni-magdeburg.de with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16399; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:43:39 +0100 Received: by csmd49.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA053223418; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:43:38 +0100 From: Roland Jesse Subject: Re: just for fun To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:43:37 +0100 (MEZ) Priority: M up 78 days, 10:44, 1 user, load averages: 0.07, 0.11, 0.08 In-Reply-To: <199603291123.MAA00422@ida.interface-business.de> from "J Wunsch" at Mar 29, 96 12:22:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME6] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting J Wunsch: > > j@bonnie 51% uname -a > FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 > j@bonnie 52% uptime > 12:17pm up 99 days, 21:28, 4 users, load average: 0.34, 0.14, 0.05 jesse@marvin:~>uname -a FreeBSD marvin 2.1.0-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Wed Nov 22 14:02:22 1995 root@marvin.cs.uni-magdeburg.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/MARVIN i386 jesse@marvin:~>uptime 1:37PM up 78 days, 10:44, 1 user, load averages: 0.07, 0.11, 0.08 > Pity, they have to shutdown their machines tonight, due to a scheduled > power outage (repair). That's one of the stablest FreeBSD systems > i've ever seen. Hopefully no need to shutdown for the next 22 days. :-) Roland -- "Who the hell is General Failure?" - "And why is he reading my harddisk?" -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Roland (rj,-) Jesse, | | stud.rer.nat. et phil. http://www.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/~jesse/ | +------ pgp public key via keyserver or mail with subject ##key ------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 05:49:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA12602 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA12597 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24373; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:48:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:48:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Roland Jesse cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: just for fun In-Reply-To: <199603291239.EAA09558@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Roland Jesse wrote: > > FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 > > 12:17pm up 99 days, 21:28, 4 users, load average: 0.34, 0.14, 0.05 > FreeBSD marvin 2.1.0-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Wed Nov 22 > 1:37PM up 78 days, 10:44, 1 user, load averages: 0.07, 0.11, 0.08 Our news server had an uptime of 87 days before we shut it down to take out the video card. It was using some SNAP release from about 6 to 8 momths ago. I think it liked the video card because it was never quite the same after that. :) Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 09:59:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA06549 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (root@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06541 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bogawa@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA29405 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:59:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:59:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Ogawa at Work To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: traceroute digital.netvoyage.net? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If anyone would be so kind as to try doing traceroutes to digital.netvoyage.net and sending me the output, I'd be much obliged. Thanks a lot. Bryan Bryan K. Ogawa Questions or Problems with NetVoyage? help@netvoyage.net Check out the NetVoyage HelpWeb at.. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:12:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA12721 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12716 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14746(6)>; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:11:34 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177475>; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:11:29 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/netscape3 - Imported sources In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:51:16 PST." <199603291851.KAA10713@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:11:20 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Mar29.111129pst.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199603291851.KAA10713@freefall.freebsd.org>you write: >jkh 96/03/29 10:51:16 > Log Message: > Brings JAVA support to FreeBSD (well, BSDI, but who's counting? :) Oh, goody, now we all have the same potential security problems as everyone else? CERT advisory, anyone? =) Bill (P.S. Wanna see a cool netscape 2.01 bug? Visit Netscape's home page with javascript disabled...) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:55:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA15808 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15803 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05142; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:55:20 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Bryan Ogawa at Work cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: traceroute digital.netvoyage.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Bryan Ogawa at Work wrote: > If anyone would be so kind as to try doing traceroutes to > digital.netvoyage.net and sending me the output, I'd be much obliged. > > Bryan K. Ogawa traceroute to digital.netvoyage.net (205.162.154.10), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 irv-ca-pm3.netcom.net (163.179.21.6) 132.986 ms 128.063 ms 126.121 ms 2 irv-ca-gw1.netcom.net (163.179.21.254) 128.384 ms 125.883 ms 129.093 ms 3 t3-2.lax-ca-gw1.netcom.net (163.179.219.49) 182.541 ms 146.639 ms 186.070 ms 4 t3-1.scl-ca-gw3.netcom.net (163.179.220.85) 191.878 ms 212.144 ms 208.564 ms 5 scl-ca-gw3.netcom.net (163.179.51.16) 139.490 ms 138.723 ms 139.337 ms 6 pb-nap.agis.net (198.32.128.19) 932.681 ms 637.314 ms 2034.053 ms 7 losangeles18.ring.agis.net (206.185.155.18) 760.245 ms 687.229 ms 676.439 ms 8 206.62.12.10 (206.62.12.10) 725.114 ms 728.049 ms 686.686 ms 9 206.13.9.15 (206.13.9.15) 768.753 ms 671.280 ms * 10 digital.netvoyage.net (205.162.154.10) 646.463 ms 564.492 ms 537.055 ms == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 12:20:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA17422 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17222 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA00457 ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:17:37 GMT To: Bryan Ogawa at Work cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: traceroute digital.netvoyage.net? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:59:31 PST." Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:17:37 +0000 Message-ID: <455.828130657@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bryan Ogawa at Work wrote in message ID : > > If anyone would be so kind as to try doing traceroutes to > digital.netvoyage.net and sending me the output, I'd be much obliged. >From my machine (palmer.demon.co.uk): traceroute to digital.netvoyage.net (205.162.154.10), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 finch-141.access.demon.net (194.159.253.141) 161.918 ms 193.136 ms 159.775 ms 2 trude-access.router.demon.net (194.159.253.99) 329.636 ms 418.269 ms 189.778 ms 3 telehouse-1.router.demon.net (194.159.252.51) 199.713 ms 188.389 ms 199.752 ms 4 agis-demon.washington.agis.net (205.137.59.57) 559.564 ms 637.579 ms 439.751 ms 5 * losangeles45.agis.net (204.130.243.45) 630.213 ms 768.535 ms 6 206.62.12.10 (206.62.12.10) 569.611 ms * 590.123 ms 7 * 206.13.9.15 (206.13.9.15) 620.098 ms 638.763 ms 8 digital.netvoyage.net (205.162.154.10) 609.640 ms * * Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 12:56:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA19469 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (root@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19464 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bogawa@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA16905 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:56:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:56:29 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Ogawa at Work To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Thanks to all who mailed traceroutes! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to all who sent traceroutes to me. I appreciate it (I'm sending this mass thanks now, you'll get your personalized thanks individually). Your efforts were much appreciated. Another tool I found useful was Club Traceroute . You can go to http://www.pcslink.com/cgi-bin/trace and use the cgi script there should you need some traces. In this case, though, I got much additional information from the traceroutes emailed to me. Again, thank you. bryan Bryan K. Ogawa Questions or Problems with NetVoyage? help@netvoyage.net Check out the NetVoyage HelpWeb at.. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 09:54:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA21453 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p2-16.intele.net [206.29.206.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21443 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05837; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:55:18 -0700 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:55:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199603301755.KAA05837@obie.softweyr.com> From: wes@intele.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD vs. Win95, per Annelise Anderson Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a recent conversation with Annelise, she revealed that she had written this in the recent past, but not posted it because she wasn't certain the humor would be apparent. My wife and I both laughed so much, I asked Annelise if I could post it here in chat. Having obtained her permission, here it is for your reading enjoyment. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. (Being a sailor, I particularly like the inclusion of GPS devices in the list below.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 01/27/1996 Julien Lamy to questions@freebsd.org: > > from what I've understood of your FreeBSB, it's just like Windows95 > isn't it? > > Julien. In certain respects, yes. Both FreeBSD and Windows95 belong to the general category of toys suitable (primarily) for males ages 12 and over, along with cars, boats, bikes, knives, guns, rockets, medieval armor, cameras, GPS devices, harems, spacecraft, fast CPUs, power drills, radar detectors, cell phones, and so forth. FreeBSD and Win95 have even more in common than this would suggest. Cars run on roads, bikes run on gasoline, harems run on money; both FreeBSD and Win95 run on electronic hardware, indeed on virtually the same kind of electronic hardware. (Some people would say that FreeBSD and Win95 actually run the hardware; others that the hardware runs FreeBSD and/or Win95. This seems to be merely semantics.) Furthermore both include the components essential for the new sport of net surfing, with the addition of an ISP. But here we run into some differences. Win95 comes with a built-in ISP, but you may not like it. It is easier with FreeBSD to select the ISP of your choice. Nevertheless, both reach the net and its critical resource, the backbone. The sport of net surfing requires little physical exertion, its only real risk being a threat to the carpal tunnels. But it does involve crashes. Unlike automobile or bike crashes, these do not involve breaking glass or crunching metal, or even the collision of one piece of electronic hardware with another. They seem to occur mysteriously inside the hardware and are not well understood. What is known, however, is that crashes are more frequent when Win95 is running than when FreeBSD is running *on identical hardware.* Both FreeBSD and Win95 run the three essential programs: WordPerfect, pgp and Doom. Win95 might be better, however, for paying bills and doing tax returns. Win95 also comes "out of the box" with more little pictures (technically known as graphics). This seems to make it more appealing to females. Whether you consider this is an advantage or a disadvantage is a matter of personal preference. On the other hand FreeBSD costs less, is somewhat less likely to destroy your DOS/Win3.1 setup if you happen to have one and care about it, and has better technical support. Finally, FreeBSD can more easily be deconstructed into its component parts (in fact, it comes deconstructed) and put back together in ways that will make it do interesting or entertaining things. It therefore has more "play" in it than Win95, although it is initially less "pretty." For many people this difference is decisive. Keep in mind, though, that FreeBSD vs. Win95 is not an either-or choice; you can have both, and even other similar toys (e.g., OS/2), and all will run on the same electronic hardware (although not at the same time). As someone put it in a newsgroup, "He who dies with the most operating systems wins." Annelise Anderson From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 10:46:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA26006 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26001 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA06352; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:44:37 -0800 (PST) To: wes@intele.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Win95, per Annelise Anderson In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:55:18 MST." <199603301755.KAA05837@obie.softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:44:37 -0800 Message-ID: <6349.828211477@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In a recent conversation with Annelise, she revealed that she had > written this in the recent past, but not posted it because she wasn't > certain the humor would be apparent. My wife and I both laughed so > much, I asked Annelise if I could post it here in chat. Having > obtained her permission, here it is for your reading enjoyment. I > hope you enjoy it as much as I did. (Being a sailor, I particularly > like the inclusion of GPS devices in the list below.) I think that this is pretty awesome, actually! I wish she had posted it and, in fact, think that it should be entered into the FAQ without delay! The humorous nature of it aside, it DOES actually describe some of the fundamental differences between the two systems in language that even the most rank beginner (or ones that shower) could understand. I'm saving this, and may even generate an SGML version at some point.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 15:26:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA21715 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA21700 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA26613; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:25:14 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA15365; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:24:57 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA05158; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:01:37 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603302301.AAA05158@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Printing from Samba under FreeBSD 2.1.0 To: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:01:37 +0100 (MET) Cc: rb@gid.co.uk, helg@tav.kiev.ua, alex@orion.fa.tdktca.com, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, mrl@teleport.com, jeff@tenforwd.wiz.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Frank Durda IV" at Mar 29, 96 07:09:00 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Frank Durda IV wrote: > FYI, the question was resolved in less than 24 hours. Well, haven't you been paying for 24-hour service when purchasing FreeBSD? :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 19:58:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA15280 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA15271 for freebsd-chat; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:58:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:58:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603310358.TAA15271@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-chat Subject: Interop Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone else at Interop this week? FreeBSD BOF?? will arrive on sunday and leave tuesday evening....