From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 00:51:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12421 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 00:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12357; Sun, 26 May 1996 00:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA14805; Sun, 26 May 1996 00:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605260749.AAA14805@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, lithium@cia-g.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 25 May 96 16:04:59 -0700. <199605252305.QAA19014@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:49:25 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Perl is certainly one of the fastest scripting languages. >fastest scripting language != fastest programming language. >I don't think perl script is going to be faster when the same C program. You're comparing Apples to Oranges. Perl is a fast interpretted scripting language. C is a compiled language. They are different things. Compiled C and scripting-based languages are designed to solve two completely different problems. If you aren't interested in the rest of my long dissertation, please move on to the next message now.... How is C faster when you want to throw something together in two minutes to do some complex automated task? In many cases it can be many times slower, because it will take so much longer to write it, compile it, debug it, and get it fully functional. I generally see this attitude the most in "beginners" or theorists who haven't actually had to design and plan large projects, then make all the details work, on a repeated basis. People who haven't been three months into a project, with lots of issues pending investigation, and a product half written, who have to make literal trade-offs between what they will be able to finish writing, and what they will have to postpone, or remove completely from the product. There just isn't enough time in our lives to write all the code to fix all the problems that we'll want to solve. Scripting is an enourmously important part of Unix system adminstration. When I used to be one of several people running a large Unix site, if all our adminstration tools had been written in C, we'd have gotten nothing done. C is great for permanent, performance-sensative work. That's why most of the OS and tools are written in C. Scripting is invaluable for quick-and-dirty fixes, for administering things that change a lot, and for writing stuff that will have to be maintained by lots of people but which isn't performance sensative. If you have a C program that solves an admin task and finishes in one minute, and I have a perl script that solves the same task and it takes three minutes to run, but the C code and the script have to be changed every few days, I'm going to be using the perl script. As someone who designs and writes C++ code for a living (8-10 hours a day, five days a week), I'll guarantee you that you simply cannot write all the code that you will want to. Which means you'll often either have to borrow good code from somewhere else, or hire more people to write it. I'll bet I borrow as much code as I write from scratch. If you can't even find time to write all the C code for the development tasks that need it, how are you going to write enough C code to cover all the tasks that are currently best handled by scripts? There have been projects where I knew exactly how I wanted something written, but I knew I would never be able to get around to writing it, so I borrowed code from someone else that wasn't a perfect fit, but was close enough to be functional. Writing and maintaining good quality C code is an expensive task. Why do you think Java and Visual Basic are so popular? In our group, *all* the build lab stuff is written in DOS batch files, awk scripts, sed scripts and perl scripts (this is a Windows NT shop, if that isn't clear). They can change a script in 30 seconds if a component needs to be built differently (which happens frequently), and they can have college interns and temps, who aren't great coders, maintain most of it. Our testers write a lot of batch, perl, and Visual Basic scripts. Want to quickly change a test, or add a new test case? Just take 30 seconds to edit the scripts. And, sometimes if a script gets used constantly, and its features aren't changing much, then it can become a good candidate for turning it into C code. However, if it's not performance sensative, and it's working, there are even cases then where you'll just have other things that are higher priority, and you may never get around to it. If you don't like perl because it doesn't do something as well as another language used for the same purpose, then you have a valid concern. But, if you don't like perl simply because it's not C, then you are completely missing the point... Can you tell I had an English minor? Somehow I seem to have no problem writing things that end up getting waaay too long... :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 01:34:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13993 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13985; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605260834.BAA13985@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dima@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, lithium@cia-g.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605260749.AAA14805@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at May 26, 96 00:49:25 am From: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com writes: > > > >> Perl is certainly one of the fastest scripting languages. > > >fastest scripting language != fastest programming language. > >I don't think perl script is going to be faster when the same C program. > > You're comparing Apples to Oranges. Perl is a fast interpretted > scripting language. C is a compiled language. They are different > things. Compiled C and scripting-based languages are designed to > solve two completely different problems. Do you want me to compare sh+sed+awk and perl? I bet, first three is going to be faster and the same script which uses sh+sed+awk will requre less memory than the same script on perl. But I agree, there're whole bunch of things, that can be written on perl easier than on sh+sed+etc. > If you aren't interested in the rest of my long dissertation, please > move on to the next message now.... It depends on what do you want to tell... > How is C faster when you want to throw something together in two > minutes to do some complex automated task? In many cases it can be > many times slower, because it will take so much longer to write it, > compile it, debug it, and get it fully functional. what about `make'? > I generally see this attitude the most in "beginners" or theorists who > haven't actually had to design and plan large projects, then make all > the details work, on a repeated basis. People who haven't been three Now I have to decide who I am - "beginner" or theorist ... > months into a project, with lots of issues pending investigation, and > a product half written, who have to make literal trade-offs between > what they will be able to finish writing, and what they will have to > postpone, or remove completely from the product. There just isn't > enough time in our lives to write all the code to fix all the problems > that we'll want to solve. > > Scripting is an enourmously important part of Unix system > adminstration. When I used to be one of several people running a > large Unix site, if all our adminstration tools had been written in C, > we'd have gotten nothing done. I'm not speaking about all scripting languages. We had a discussion about perl scripts, I believe ... > [ ... skipped ... ] > If you don't like perl because it doesn't do something as well as > another language used for the same purpose, then you have a valid > concern. But, if you don't like perl simply because it's not C, then > you are completely missing the point... I don't like perl because this is fat. I don't like perl because this is slow. > Can you tell I had an English minor? Somehow I seem to have no > problem writing things that end up getting waaay too long... :-) Sorry, I'm an uneducated person. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > > Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. > If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- dima From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 01:51:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14877 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA14865; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23548; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:51:29 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA14634; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:51:28 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA01190; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:40:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605260840.KAA01190@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 10:40:25 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605252305.QAA19014@freefall.freebsd.org> from Dima Ruban at "May 25, 96 04:04:59 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dima Ruban wrote: > > Perl is certainly one of the fastest scripting languages. > > fastest scripting language != fastest programming language. Right. But for many of us, the time to write and maintain a program does also count, and that's where scripting languages win. > I don't think perl script is going to be faster when the same C program. That depends. You can write poor programs with every language. If the Perl program is large (so the compilation time doesn't matter too much), you can easily have well-written Perl and C programs that run at roughly the same speed. If you pick something like Perl to write things with it that have to be written with awk/sed/sh/sort pipelines, the classic solution is often slower. (Again: i don't speak about _rewriting_ an existing application, only about the decision of tools when writing something new.) > About scripting language ... One of my clients had chat script for his > WWW server written on perl. Standard load average on this machine was > 40-70!!!!! > And now it keeps under 10 only becasue I wrote this script on C. But only since your C program is well-written, and the Perl program not. I think i could also write you a C program that would even higher the load of the system. :) Anyway, as somebody else also replied: nobody claims that there is The One True Programming Language. The argumentation that was starting all this was: ``I will rewrite it in C, since i'm too lazy to get the Perl one.'' > Maybe some day, when computer will have lotsa memory and at least 10 times > faster CPUs, maybe then perl will become standard or something. I beg to disagree. Unless your entire equipment is 386/16's or such, you've already got enough computing power to base your decision of tools on ease of use and elegance, instead on resource tightness. Look at all the nice Tcl/Tk applications. They usually aren't slower than say the average Winloose application -- and they are entirely interpreted! But they wouldn't even be there if there was not Tcl: nobody would have had the time to write them. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 02:37:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA16794 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (dns1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.44.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA16783 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon (platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.96.1]) by platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA11175 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:39:52 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 10:39:52 +0100 (BST) From: " Stephen P. Butler" X-Sender: stephen@platon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-Reply-To: <199605260749.AAA14805@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The general trend in Computer Science has always been away from lower level languages towards higher level languages. Since we all have more ideas than we can implement, and the timeframes in which products have to be shipped in continually reduce, nobody can afford the time to write all of a program in hand optimised assembler anymore. If something is seen to be time critical however, then those bits (and those bits only) that cause the problems may be replaced by hand written assembler. In those cases however, the need for this has been established by testing the program and finding it lacking. No doubt people will say that C isn't assembler, you're not comparing like with like but stop and think about it if you do... We trade the efficiency of the lower level languages for higher level notations that allow us to get more work done in the shorter amount of time. We also gain: a) Portability in ever increasing (hopefully!) amounts. b) Better error checking - less bugs in programs due to silly mistakes. c) Reduced development times. d) Lots of other things that escape my mind that no doubt people can remind me of. If your Perl (or TCL or shell) script is taking too much time or memory, don't waste your time rewriting it in C in the hope it'll be smaller and faster - find out what's wrong with your script! You might be able to fix the script in a couple of lines, saving yourself days or weeks. It's more likely of course that you'll find that one particular section requires most of the time, and in that case you can concentrate on maybe writing a custom program which does that bit well, rather than rewriting the whole thing. The other thing of course is to make sure you don't fall into the trap of having seen some things done badly in a particular language, that this means the language on the whole is bad. We all know you can write completely inpenetrable programs in C that leak memory faster than you can stuff in the 32MB SIMMS and attach the 20GB swap disks we just try and avoid doing that. And hey, maybe our program does leak a little memory, but it works and if it doesn't cause too much of a problem then you need to be sure that fixing it is justified. Chasing perfection for perfections sake is OK if you've got nothing else better to do. I believe that every professional programmer should probably know a scripting language (damn I'll have to learn one now). We should be aiming to produce a working program at as high a level as possible, so the development time and maintenance costs for that program are as small as possible. If the program is useful, and execution speed is shown to be a problem, then consider how to produce something that can meet the execution time (or memory size or whatever) requirements. I don't believe it's true to say that programmers no longer care about execution speed and memory size. We still care about those things, but we also have other concerns which are more important, such as getting the job done, and having some free time. These days, hardware is much cheaper than the software development costs. If we artificially elevate the costs of software development, we're causing our employers, customers and ourselves a disservice. [* Philosophy Mode On *] You might argue that you're not a professional programmer, and that it doesn't really matter if you take the time to write something in one language and it takes three days, when you could've written a three line shell script that does the job in 30 seconds. Sure, if you want to that's your perogative. On the otherhand, are you sure that you couldn't of have used those three days less 30 seconds in a better manner? [* Philosophy Mode Off *] Regards, Stephen. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- |Stephen Butler |stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk | |Computer Science Undergraduate. | | |Royal Holloway, University of London.|Finger for PGP public | | |key. | ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 06:41:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24335 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 06:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA24330 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 06:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id PAA24195 ; Sun, 26 May 1996 15:41:54 +0200 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id PAA25863 ; Sun, 26 May 1996 15:41:54 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id OAA17176; Sun, 26 May 1996 14:22:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199605261222.OAA17176@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:22:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat Mailing List) In-Reply-To: <199605260233.UAA22764@rocky.sri.MT.net> from Nate Williams at "May 25, 96 08:33:29 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2041 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL16 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Nate Williams said: > Not true. If the malloc that perl uses doesn't return memory back to > the OS, then of course it won't get smaller, but that's a function of > *all* programs, not just perl. Perl happens to trigger it because it Perl uses the same malloc we use to have: a variation on the BSD/Caltech malloc which doesn't give the memory back to the OS. Using our standard malloc from phk leads to a smaller memory footprint for Perl... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #3: Sat May 25 15:06:58 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 17:29:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22234 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22225 for chat; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:29:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199605270029.RAA22225@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: recent mail in yackers To: chat Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em then we enjoyed: perl, better than C and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? it must be an election year in the usa -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 18:14:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01253 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA01245; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA00355; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:14:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199605270114.SAA00355@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 17:29:25 PDT." <199605270029.RAA22225@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:14:20 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em > then we enjoyed: perl, better than C > and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? > > it must be an election year in the usa > > -- Maybe is time for someone to create a *private* technical mailing list which deals with mundane things like coding 8) Personally, I don't mine the volume on the hacker's mailing , I do object to the type of non-related topics that has been surfacing lately and the lack of OS discussions. Well, it feels that if I unsubscribe I would not be missing much. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 18:40:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA05718 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA05678; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:39:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199605270139.SAA05678@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605270114.SAA00355@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at May 26, 96 06:14:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em > > then we enjoyed: perl, better than C > > and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? > > > > it must be an election year in the usa > > > > -- > > Maybe is time for someone to create a *private* technical mailing > list which deals with mundane things like coding 8) > > Personally, I don't mine the volume on the hacker's mailing , I do > object to the type of non-related topics that has been surfacing > lately and the lack of OS discussions. Well, it feels that > if I unsubscribe I would not be missing much. yes, that's just the problem, lots of junk and some good material. scared to unsubscribe for fear or missing the good stuff that does go by....maybe we should start discussing the code here in chat. lure them all in and then switch the technical material back to hackers ;) jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 20:23:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26621 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26612 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 20:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02197; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:23:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:23:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers In-Reply-To: <199605270114.SAA00355@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 May 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > Maybe is time for someone to create a *private* technical mailing > list which deals with mundane things like coding 8) Hmm... It seems to me that there are already hundreds of mailing lists and newsgroups explicitly dedicated to such things... Does the world really need another one? :-> -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 01:21:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA23483 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA23454 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA14194; Mon, 27 May 1996 10:21:35 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA26338; Mon, 27 May 1996 10:21:35 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA06315; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:23:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605270723.JAA06315@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: all this talk about routers and all... To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 09:23:33 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: louie@TransSys.COM, FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Michael Hancock at "May 27, 96 02:53:50 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Hancock wrote: Please, discuss this on freebsd-isp, bsd-isdn, or whatever seems appropriate. Boy, more than one person complained about this ongoing discussion in -hackers, but you simply ignore them, declaring your own point of view (re: whether this should be discussed here or not) the one and only! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 01:55:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26174 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26165 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id RAA26397; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:54:41 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:54:41 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Joerg Wunsch cc: louie@TransSys.COM, FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: all this talk about routers and all... In-Reply-To: <199605270723.JAA06315@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joerg, Sorry, I thought they were complaining about the FreeBSD vs. Ascend/Cisco advocacy. I'm was hoping that people would be interested in writing code for FreeBSD so hackers seemed apropriate. Did you read my posts? I respect your point of view as you seem to have been around on the FreeBSD mailing list a lot longer than I have and would know better. My problem with isp is that they don't seem to be focused on code writing. My problem with isdn is that the field is a lot narrower in that it seems to be focused on the German isdn arena. Anyway, I'll just shut-up and lurk. Cheers, mike On Mon, 27 May 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Michael Hancock wrote: > > Please, discuss this on freebsd-isp, bsd-isdn, or whatever seems > appropriate. Boy, more than one person complained about this ongoing > discussion in -hackers, but you simply ignore them, declaring your own > point of view (re: whether this should be discussed here or not) the > one and only! > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 08:50:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21017 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21011; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA29961; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:50:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers In-Reply-To: <199605270114.SAA00355@rah.star-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Personally, I don't mine the volume on the hacker's mailing , I do > object to the type of non-related topics that has been surfacing > lately and the lack of OS discussions. Well, it feels that > if I unsubscribe I would not be missing much. Actually, I think most of the topics are of interest. What I think is the problem is these threads _WILL NOT DIE_! :-) Think we can come back in three weeks and see this one still going? Regards, Brian From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 13:22:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08168 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08147; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa17020; 27 May 96 21:22 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa18929; 27 May 96 18:51 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id CAA01441; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:13:12 GMT Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:13:12 GMT Message-Id: <199605270213.CAA01441@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org CC: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199605270029.RAA22225@freefall.freebsd.org> (jmb@freefall.freebsd.org) Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em > then we enjoyed: perl, better than C > and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? You forgot the editor wars! 8-) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland jraynard@dial.pipex.com james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 17:15:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12004 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11999 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23155; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605280014.RAA23155@antares.aero.org> To: Mike Eggleston Cc: stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 May 1996 05:42:43 PDT." <9605241242.AA02226@sys8.wfc.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:14:47 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > There has never been a faster editor [than vi]. Well, when we benchmarked the Rand editor against vi, the Rand editor read in a file four times as fast as vi, and when we read in a file, changed one character, and wrote it out again, the Rand editor was twice as fast as vi. This was some years ago; I don't know if the buffer-management code in vi has been rewritten since then. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 23:22:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04459 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04453 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10424; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:27 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08562; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA29918; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:08:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605280608.IAA29918@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: editors To: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:08:10 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: mikee@sys8.wfc.com, stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@Freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605280014.RAA23155@antares.aero.org> from Mike O'Brien at "May 27, 96 05:14:47 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mike O'Brien wrote: > ..., the Rand editor was twice as > fast as vi. This was some years ago; I don't know if the buffer-management > code in vi has been rewritten since then. nvi is rewritten from scratch, i think. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 23:22:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04473 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04454 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10419; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:25 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08561; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA03466; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:12:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605280612.IAA03466@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:12:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605280125.VAA17242@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at "May 27, 96 09:25:48 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > than poll. Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones implement it as a system call, too. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 23:22:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04525 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04494; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10439; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:37 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08565; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:22:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA09516; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:21:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605280621.IAA09516@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers To: james@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:21:14 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605270213.CAA01441@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from James Raynard at "May 27, 96 02:13:12 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As James Raynard wrote: > > > first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em > > then we enjoyed: perl, better than C > > and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? > > You forgot the editor wars! 8-) They mostly went on here. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 03:22:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16255 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16226; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA00653; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:19:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199605281019.DAA00653@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 18:39:59 PDT." <199605270139.SAA05678@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 03:19:45 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > > first we had: cisco, love 'em or leave em > > > then we enjoyed: perl, better than C > > > and now its: asm: loading to the left vs moving to the right? > > > > > > it must be an election year in the usa > > > > > > -- > > > > Maybe is time for someone to create a *private* technical mailing > > list which deals with mundane things like coding 8) > > > > Personally, I don't mine the volume on the hacker's mailing , I do > > object to the type of non-related topics that has been surfacing > > lately and the lack of OS discussions. Well, it feels that > > if I unsubscribe I would not be missing much. > > yes, that's just the problem, lots of junk and some good > material. scared to unsubscribe for fear or missing the > good stuff that does go by....maybe we should start > discussing the code here in chat. lure them all in and > then switch the technical material back to hackers ;) > Yeap, that will be a neat trick have them come over to chat and then lock them all in here 8) I suggested to create a different private technical list and "Brian N. Handy" shot me down . So my next idea is to have a mediated mailing list either that or just unsubscribe for a while and hope & pray that the useless postings stops. At any rate, it seems that the noise has gone down on freebsd-hackers 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 04:20:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19006 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA18996 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA13732; Tue, 28 May 96 07:19:04 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id HAA17563; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org, chat@freebsd.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 08:12:17 EST. <199605280612.IAA03466@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) Religious??? Off hand I can't think of why this would be religious. In any event I don't subscribe to chat, and I don't really want to subscribe to yet another list; I already have more than enough to do. > > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > than poll. > > Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and > that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the > sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones > implement it as a system call, too. I'm curious about what your definition of "serious" is. On most of the SVR4-en (I did qualify my statement as being about SVR4), there is no select system call -- select is a library routine implemented with poll. In any event I'm reasonably certain that the vendors who ship these versions of SVR4 think of themselves as serious: Solaris 2.x (SVR4) Unixware 1.x, 2.x (SVR4.2) Sony NEWS/OS 6.x (SVR4) NCR (AT&T MP/RAS) 4.0.3 (SVR4) Fujitsu UXP 10.20 (SVR4.2) (SGI's IRIX5 and IRIX6 have both. You'll forgive me if I suggest that they're the exception that proves the rule. :-)) Of the remaining systems that I have here, which have both poll and select system calls, none are SVR4. They are: (SunOS) SCO UNIX HPUX AIX Digital UNIX (OSF/1) SunOS is technically dead, so that makes this list one shorter. It will be interesting to see what the SVR4 incarnation of SCO UNIX will have. HPUX does show signs of heading toward SVR4, we'll have to watch and see. The only vendors with a long term commitment to not go to SVR4 (well, Digital UNIX does have an SVR4 environment in 4.0) are Digital and IBM. In contrast to your statement that "only a few implement (select) as a library function," it looks to me like only a few implement both as system calls, and it seems to me like that list is going to get even shorter. So, getting back to FreeBSD-land. A FreeBSD implementation of poll would not need to be as fundamentally flawed as the SVR4 implementation. What some people would like to have is a new API that takes a struct timeval as an argument instead of an int. This would allow specifying delays with usec instead of msec granularity *and* would also allow delays of longer than MAXINT msec to be specified. As it happens I have added both poll and polltv to my 2.1R system, and if I didn't have so many other demands on my time I might be able to finish it someday and contribute it back. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 06:08:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25559 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25523 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id EAA04427 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:59:38 -0700 Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA12230; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:00:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:00:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Possible hack attempt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was looking at my morning logs after this long weekend and I have this little beauty in them. May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "wiz" command from zeus.central.ntua.gr (147.102.240.1) May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "debug:" command from zeus.central.ntua.gr (147.102.240.1) plus this May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: connect from zeus.central.ntua.gr May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: ttloop: peer died: Undefined error: 0 Any suggestions on what I should do about this? ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | Webmaster of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Sciences Center of West Virginia University | This Space For Rent WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 11:35:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20326 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20311 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA11511; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:32:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281832.LAA11511@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:32:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605281759.NAA19371@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 01:59:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Solaris as of 2.3 implementes it as a system call. I pointed out two > > bugs in the library implementation: > > I'm really not sure what you're talking about Terry. There's no select > in /usr/include/sys/syscall.h in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5. The only man page > is in section 3C. A trivial program that calls select(), linked with > libc only, can be seen to call poll when run in truss. nm dumps of the > shared libs reveal no functions named select or _select save the one in > libc. A nm dump of select.o from libc.a shows a reference to _poll. It's a hidden call. You have to compile in SunOS 4.x compatability mode. > Either you're refering to some secret undocumented system call that you > know about by virtue of seeing the sources, or something that's an extra > cost add-on. But I suspect there is no such secret undocumented system > call, if only because if there was one, Sun would be using it themselves; > but they aren't, as a truss of /usr/openwin/bin/Xsun will show -- they > call poll. Nope. It's in the 2.3 release notes about support for SunOS 4.x statically linked binaries. No source code viewing required, just a bit of puttering around. Like system call LKM's in SunOS 4.x. > I guess that includes Solaris as one of those "silly non-SVID III > compliant" implementations. Unixware too. I wonder how Univel could > have made such an egregious mistake -- there's no reference to a select > system call in their "Programming with System Calls" reference. None > in the AT&T book either. You'll have to point me to where in the SVID > it says that a particular library routine must make a call to the system > at all, much less to a system call with the same name, in order to be > SVID compliant. SVID III Volume 5: Real Time extensions, where select/getitimer/setitimer and gettimeofday are defined. I complained bitterly about UnixWare, even to the point of rewriting the timer code and implementing the thing for them. I complained once for Solaris, and they fixed it in their 6 month guaranteed turnaround. SunSoft is slow, but it's steady. > If there's a secret undocumented select system call in Solaris, I'd > like to know about it, with something more than anecdotal evidence! 1) Build a static SunOS 4.1.3 binary that calls select(2). 2) Run it on Solaris 2.2 (watch it ENOSYS). 3) Run it on Solaris 2.3 (watch it work). It's there. But like the BSD 4.4 "HIDDEN" attribute for the "undelete" and "whiteout" system calls, the calls do exist, even if the syscalls.h doesn't openly admit it. Use syscall( 93, ...) in place of a select(2) stub. I'm not sure if the magic number is significant; you may actually get select(2) if you use /usr/ucb/cc (the compatability compiler). Personally, except for threading, I develop for Solaris using SunOS. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 12:07:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21912 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21877 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA07173 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:40:54 -0700 Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id OAA29963; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA14929; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:27:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA18898; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:31:55 GMT Message-Id: <199605281431.OAA18898@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org, chat@freebsd.com, terry@lambert.org, "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 EST." <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:31:52 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> , you wrote: Since Kaleb mentioned Digital UNIX as one O/S that implements poll, I though it might be useful to elaborate on that a bit. Digital UNIX has both the poll(2) and select(2) system calls. Both are syscalls in fact. However, since poll has more functionality that select the kernel infrastructure is build around poll rather than select. The select kernel code actually calls poll code in side the kernel. Internally, the kernel uses a timeval; poll's ms timeout gets converted to a timeval. When the _select routine (like soo_select) gets called, instead of int soo_select(struct file *fp, int which, struct proc *p) as in BSD4.4, it gets defined as int soo_select(struct file *fp, int *events, int *revents, int scanning) and the code uses the *events to set the appropriate bits in *revents. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 12:35:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23834 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA23820 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA07475 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:14:13 -0700 Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA23725; Tue, 28 May 96 15:13:42 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id PAA19638; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:13:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281913.PAA19638@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 11:32:38 EST. <199605281832.LAA11511@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:13:40 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > > > If there's a secret undocumented select system call in Solaris, I'd > > like to know about it, with something more than anecdotal evidence! > > 1) Build a static SunOS 4.1.3 binary that calls select(2). Been there, done that. See my previous reply. Trussing on Solaris 2.4 shows it calling poll. > 2) Run it on Solaris 2.2 (watch it ENOSYS). > 3) Run it on Solaris 2.3 (watch it work). What does trussing it on 2.3 show it doing? > It's there. But like the BSD 4.4 "HIDDEN" attribute for the "undelete" > and "whiteout" system calls, the calls do exist, even if the syscalls.h > doesn't openly admit it. That's nice, but I don't see how it applies to Solaris. For my money I prefer to use documented features. The fact is that on BSD 4.4 the source is the documentation. When Sun releases the source to Solaris you can make your argument about system calls that aren't in > Use syscall( 93, ...) in place of a select(2) stub. I'm not sure if > the magic number is significant; you may actually get select(2) if you > use /usr/ucb/cc (the compatability compiler). Yeah, I've done the syscall thing too. Trussing it shows it calling poll. See my previous reply on this topic. >Personally, except for threading, I develop for Solaris using SunOS. You obviously have your reasons for doing that. For my money I develop for Solaris on Solaris. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 12:37:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24153 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24132 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA07016 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:00:31 -0700 Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA21942; Tue, 28 May 96 13:59:53 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id NAA19371; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:59:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281759.NAA19371@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 09:58:46 EST. <199605281658.JAA11239@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:59:51 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) > > > > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > > than poll. > > > > Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and > > that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the > > sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones > > implement it as a system call, too. > > Solaris as of 2.3 implementes it as a system call. I pointed out two > bugs in the library implementation: I'm really not sure what you're talking about Terry. There's no select in /usr/include/sys/syscall.h in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5. The only man page is in section 3C. A trivial program that calls select(), linked with libc only, can be seen to call poll when run in truss. nm dumps of the shared libs reveal no functions named select or _select save the one in libc. A nm dump of select.o from libc.a shows a reference to _poll. Either you're refering to some secret undocumented system call that you know about by virtue of seeing the sources, or something that's an extra cost add-on. But I suspect there is no such secret undocumented system call, if only because if there was one, Sun would be using it themselves; but they aren't, as a truss of /usr/openwin/bin/Xsun will show -- they call poll. > > 1) Won't run statically linked SunOS binaries > > 2) Makes OS non-compliant with SVID III (RT) definition for > select(), since SVID III makes a distinction between system > clock and clock update frequency (setitimer(RT), getitimer(RT), > gettimeofday(RT)). > > Pretty much only silly non-SVID III compliant SVR3/SVR4 implementations > use select(3) instead of select(2) implementations. I guess that includes Solaris as one of those "silly non-SVID III compliant" implementations. Unixware too. I wonder how Univel could have made such an egregious mistake -- there's no reference to a select system call in their "Programming with System Calls" reference. None in the AT&T book either. You'll have to point me to where in the SVID it says that a particular library routine must make a call to the system at all, much less to a system call with the same name, in order to be SVID compliant. If there's a secret undocumented select system call in Solaris, I'd like to know about it, with something more than anecdotal evidence! -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 14:12:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29798 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (h196-7-192-158.iafrica.com [196.7.192.158]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA29785 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA00428; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:08:26 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605282108.XAA00428@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:08:25 +0200 (SAT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605281805.LAA11436@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 28, 96 11:05:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > There is also some conventional wisdom on pre vs. post-incrementing, > which I wasn't going to mention because I was under the impresson > that all modern compilers dealt with it. > > Post-increment is generally faster if you have the instruction set for > it; not all systems have the instruction set. This is interesting, and made me recall some old x86 stuff which makes the opposite claim. The context is different, of course, so it doesn't really contradict Terry. Pre-increment/decrement operators are often more efficient than the post-increment/decrement version. This is valid mostly when these operators are combined in the expressions using compares (like ++i), and has no effect if the simple ++i; or i; is done (without a compare). The reason for this is that the processor flags are changed by ++ or, thus the (i++ N) must generate an extra code (usually a JMP) to prevent ++ from destroying the result of the compare. -- RT This is a great piece of technical explanation, and anyone who wants to score points in -hackers can learn a lot from it: Keep your examples inline, limited to 4 characters or less, and get them mostly wrong. :) RT "designed and coded the world's first MS-DOS based multi-user, multi-processor operating system." (Though, to be fair, RT probably just had a lousy copy editor.) Any guesses what extra code the statement i++ N would generate, if not a JMP? -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 14:20:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00852 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00843; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:20:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199605282120.OAA00843@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: memcpy/strcpy optimisation To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605281900.FAA10527@suburbia.net> from "Julian Assange" at May 29, 96 05:00:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Assange wrote: > > > Has anyone had a look at http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/paper/talk.ps? > > It details a method to increase bus performence on pentiums u.. when using strcpy/memcpy > around 5 times. should there be attribution to satoshi asami? is there at 'thing' between berkeley and stanford cs dept's? if so, is it a rivalry that only stanfor recognizes? jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:07:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05346 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05312 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA08780 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:36:31 -0700 Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA27204; Tue, 28 May 96 17:35:58 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id RAA19989; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:35:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199605282135.RAA19989@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 12:52:51 EST. <199605281952.MAA11661@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:35:53 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > If there's a secret undocumented select system call in Solaris, I'd > > > > like to know about it, with something more than anecdotal evidence! > > > > > > 1) Build a static SunOS 4.1.3 binary that calls select(2). > > > > > > Been there, done that. See my previous reply. Trussing on Solaris 2.4 > > shows it calling poll. > > For a STATIC build? Yes, a STATIC build. > I have a hard time believing this, since SunOS 4.x doesn't *have* a > poll for static 4.x libc stubs linked into the program to call. I dunno what you're looking at. SunOS 4.1.3 has poll in libc.a and a trivial program, statically linked on SunOS works fine on both SunOS and Solaris, and trussing it on Solaris shows it calling poll. Ditto for a program calling select. > > > 2) Run it on Solaris 2.2 (watch it ENOSYS). > > > 3) Run it on Solaris 2.3 (watch it work). > > > > What does trussing it on 2.3 show it doing? > > Probably calling whatever call the execution class defines for 93 on > the box. It's entirely possible that it doesn't use the Solaris > sysent[] vector when trapping from a 4.1.3 executable. FreeBSD > certainly doesn't trap to the same sysent[] vector for Linux or > IBCS2 or BSDI binaries. C'mon. I don't want to know what it's probably doing. What does trussing it on 2.3 show it doing? I've got static SunOS binaries that use select() and syscall(SYS_select, ...) and truss shows them calling poll. > > poll. See my previous reply on this topic. > > > > >Personally, except for threading, I develop for Solaris using SunOS. > > > > You obviously have your reasons for doing that. For my money I develop > > for Solaris on Solaris. > > Yes. One of the resons is it makes select() work on Solaris. Yeah, I believe that code that calls select() works. You haven't explained how though. And I think I have more than enough evidence to satisfy myself what it's doing. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:07:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05355 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05316 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA08701 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:23:11 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA17753; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:21:43 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA18325; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:21:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA15344; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:19:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605282119.XAA15344@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:19:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at "May 28, 96 07:18:48 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) > > Religious??? Off hand I can't think of why this would be religious. To much chat already going to -hackers... Please, keep this on -chat, and use a group reply (as most people use anyway). > > Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and > > that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the > > sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones > > implement it as a system call, too. Your pro's: > Solaris 2.x (SVR4) > Unixware 1.x, 2.x (SVR4.2) > Sony NEWS/OS 6.x (SVR4) > NCR (AT&T MP/RAS) 4.0.3 (SVR4) > Fujitsu UXP 10.20 (SVR4.2) Hmm. It's not surprising for true SVR4's (i.e., kernel based on the SVR4 code). All the clones (only userland taken from SVR4, but self- written kernels)... > (SGI's IRIX5 and IRIX6 ... and > HPUX > AIX > Digital UNIX (OSF/1) ...and you can add DG/UX as well, don't use the library variant. If you look at the list, except Slowaris, all the larger workstation vendors don't seem to follow the SVR4 route. (For Slowaris -- they have to take their own medicine. It's been Sun that did the merge between old SunOS and SVRx.) > So, getting back to FreeBSD-land. A FreeBSD implementation of poll would > not need to be as fundamentally flawed as the SVR4 implementation. Hmm, but yet another not even API-compatible version of poll()? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:08:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05597 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05563 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA07710 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:55:55 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA11661; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:52:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281952.MAA11661@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:52:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605281913.PAA19638@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 03:13:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > If there's a secret undocumented select system call in Solaris, I'd > > > like to know about it, with something more than anecdotal evidence! > > > > 1) Build a static SunOS 4.1.3 binary that calls select(2). > > > Been there, done that. See my previous reply. Trussing on Solaris 2.4 > shows it calling poll. For a STATIC build? I have a hard time believing this, since SunOS 4.x doesn't *have* a poll for static 4.x libc stubs linked into the program to call. > > 2) Run it on Solaris 2.2 (watch it ENOSYS). > > 3) Run it on Solaris 2.3 (watch it work). > > What does trussing it on 2.3 show it doing? Probably calling whatever call the execution class defines for 93 on the box. It's entirely possible that it doesn't use the Solaris sysent[] vector when trapping from a 4.1.3 executable. FreeBSD certainly doesn't trap to the same sysent[] vector for Linux or IBCS2 or BSDI binaries. > poll. See my previous reply on this topic. > > >Personally, except for threading, I develop for Solaris using SunOS. > > You obviously have your reasons for doing that. For my money I develop > for Solaris on Solaris. Yes. One of the resons is it makes select() work on Solaris. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:09:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05917 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05895; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06869 ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:46:37 -0700 Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id KAA26693; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOSmp-000QYRC; Tue, 28 May 96 19:42 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA27032; Tue, 28 May 1996 19:29:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199605281729.TAA27032@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:29:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <20757.833304229@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 28, 96 10:23:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >> 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said >> for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like >> this: > > Or you could be entirely heretical, like me, and go to 4 column tabs and > 120 column formatting. :-) > > I used to be an 80 column / 8 column tabstop kinda guy right up until > about a year ago, when I underwent a sea change and decided that if > programming styles could change radically in response to increasing > memory and disk resources, then it could damn well change in response > to the bitmap display revolution. :-) At 120 columns, I now have much > more room to display text, not needing to chop complex expressions > into multi-line unreadability or make 72 column text (for output) with > crap around it much more difficult to format. This isn't really technical any more--let's move it to chat. I suppose I shouldn't be saying this, because I wanted my suggestion to be independent of my own position, but I suppose it's relevant, so here goes: I started indenting my Algol 60 programs with 6 character tabs, because that's what the program drums on the 029s had set. It didn't take me long to get down to 5, and I've been decreasing ever since. I'm now down to 2, and I think that's as much as anybody can stand. In the early 70s, when working for Tandem, I found myself forced to limit my column width to 107 or 108, because that's all Tandem's TAL compiler could stand. I haven't really changed that one: my xterms are still 110 characters wide, and out of deference to people who still run 80x2[45], I haven't changed. > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) I'd say that any position on indentation is going to be unpopular somewhere. Now these damned hanging {s... Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:14:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07165 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07134 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06464 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:01:52 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA11239; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:58:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281658.JAA11239@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:58:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: kaleb@x.org, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605280612.IAA03466@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 28, 96 08:12:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) > > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > than poll. > > Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and > that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the > sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones > implement it as a system call, too. Solaris as of 2.3 implementes it as a system call. I pointed out two bugs in the library implementation: 1) Won't run statically linked SunOS binaries 2) Makes OS non-compliant with SVID III (RT) definition for select(), since SVID III makes a distinction between system clock and clock update frequency (setitimer(RT), getitimer(RT), gettimeofday(RT)). Pretty much only silly non-SVID III compliant SVR3/SVR4 implementations use select(3) instead of select(2) implementations. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:14:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07329 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07239 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA11890; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:11:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605282211.PAA11890@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. To: rnordier@iafrica.com (Robert Nordier) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:11:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605282108.XAA00428@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 28, 96 11:08:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Any guesses what extra code the statement > > i++ N > > would generate, if not a JMP? I would think it could do an extra compare at the top if it reordered. Of course, if it reordered, it wouldn't be doing extra stuff at all, because the logic should be invertable by a peephole optimizer, if you assume your compiler is any good at all. The GCC numbers Bruce posted were, to say the least, a bit scary. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15:25:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08785 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08774 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA11952; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:18:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605282218.PAA11952@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:18:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605282135.RAA19989@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 05:35:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I have a hard time believing this, since SunOS 4.x doesn't *have* a > > poll for static 4.x libc stubs linked into the program to call. > > I dunno what you're looking at. SunOS 4.1.3 has poll in libc.a and a > trivial program, statically linked on SunOS works fine on both SunOS > and Solaris, and trussing it on Solaris shows it calling poll. Ditto > for a program calling select. On my 4.1.3_U1 box: % grep select /usr/include/syscall.h #define SYS_select 93 % Looks like a system call to me. > C'mon. I don't want to know what it's probably doing. What does trussing > it on 2.3 show it doing? I've got static SunOS binaries that use select() > and syscall(SYS_select, ...) and truss shows them calling poll. Truss is wrong. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 16:33:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA14351 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14336 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 16:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA00116; Tue, 28 May 96 19:32:20 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id TAA20062; Tue, 28 May 1996 19:32:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199605282332.TAA20062@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 15:18:49 EST. <199605282218.PAA11952@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:32:19 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I have a hard time believing this, since SunOS 4.x doesn't *have* a > > > poll for static 4.x libc stubs linked into the program to call. > > > > I dunno what you're looking at. SunOS 4.1.3 has poll in libc.a and a > > trivial program, statically linked on SunOS works fine on both SunOS > > and Solaris, and trussing it on Solaris shows it calling poll. Ditto > > for a program calling select. > > On my 4.1.3_U1 box: > % grep select /usr/include/syscall.h > #define SYS_select 93 > % > > Looks like a system call to me. You're being obseqious. In all the context that's past it should have been eminently clear that I'm well aware that select calls the select syscall. Since I obviously can't take any shortcuts I'll spell it all the way out. SunOS 4.1.3 has poll in libc.a and a trivially program statically linked on SunOS works fine on both SunOS and Solaris, and trussing it on Solaris shows it calling poll. SunOS 4.1.3 has select in libc.a and a trivial program statically linked on SunOS works fine on both SunOS and Solaris, and trussing it on Solaris shows it calling poll. > > C'mon. I don't want to know what it's probably doing. What does trussing > > it on 2.3 show it doing? I've got static SunOS binaries that use select() > > and syscall(SYS_select, ...) and truss shows them calling poll. > > Truss is wrong. On what basis do you make that claim. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 17:21:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17143 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17138 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA12273; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:19:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605290019.RAA12273@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:19:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605282332.TAA20062@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 07:32:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Truss is wrong. > > On what basis do you make that claim. On the basis that 93 and 153 are different numbers. Truss may report "poll" for 93, but 93 is the entry point for select. If I trap through that entry point, that is, by god, the entry point I get, period, end of sentence. Truss is lying. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 18:01:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20151 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20137; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ai20767; 29 May 96 1:00 GMT Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa26647; 29 May 96 1:11 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA10241; Tue, 28 May 1996 19:24:40 GMT Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:24:40 GMT Message-Id: <199605281924.TAA10241@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199605280621.IAA09516@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Tue, 28 May 1996 08:21:14 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You forgot the editor wars! 8-) > > They mostly went on here. ;-) Oops, sorry, got -hackers and -current mixed up 8-( -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland jraynard@dial.pipex.com james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 22:31:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07462 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 22:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07457 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 22:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA11483; Wed, 29 May 1996 00:31:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 00:31:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: MegaZone cc: portmaster-users@livingston.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Connection Refused when telnet to PM2eR30 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199605282332.QAA21550@server.livingston.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 May 1996, MegaZone wrote: > Think of BSD like Dodge, then FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI BSD/OS, etc are all > makes of cars - Daytona, Viper, Stealth. No, BSD is Chevy, SYSV is um... Kia. (Dude, but it can sure chase that Toyota around can't it.) > They aren't the same, and building an aftermarket component (our software) > for one does not equate to building it for another. So we have to pick > which ones to build for, FreeBSD is this huge monster truck with a bright yellow rollbar and, like 14 KC lights on it. > NetBSD is a small market, so it isn't considered worth the investment in > time, effort, and money to build for it. Not enough return. NetBSD is the Exxon Valdez filled all the way up with MicroMachines (damnit, they're the REAL thing!) and Transformers. (Not the new crappy ones, the old real ones. (Man, what was up with those constructicons anyway?)) > BSDI BSD/OS is a very large market, with a lot of demand. So we build > software for it because the return on it makes it worth the effort. BSDI is a bright pink ElCamino. Nuff said. (Ok, it has a nifty chrome job and a cooler with a case of Bud in the back. And maybe a chick from last year's swedish bikini team.) > FreeBSD is a decent market, but not as much demand as BSDI (or many other > OS platforms for that matter). Alone it really isn't worth the effort > and investment right now. However, there are adaptor kits that allow our > add-ons for BSDI to connect to a FreeBSD chassis (FreeBSD can run BSDI > binaries). So we don't have to make the investment in building and > maintaining code for FreeBSD as FreeBSD owners can run the binaries we > build for BSDI with the appropriate compatibility package. And more > than that, there are Linux binary compatibility packages out too - so they > have the choice of two binaries. Heh... Just track BSDI, the compat code will do the rest. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:52:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13348 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13327 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA00327; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:51:53 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA23719; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:51:52 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA17629; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:29:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605290629.IAA17629@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:29:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605290359.NAA05697@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 29, 96 01:29:44 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of us can afford 29-inch monitors). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:53:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13452 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13349; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA00363; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:52:02 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA23726; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:52:02 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA17741; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:34:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605290634.IAA17741@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers To: james@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:34:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605281924.TAA10241@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from James Raynard at "May 28, 96 07:24:40 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As James Raynard wrote: > > > > You forgot the editor wars! 8-) > > > > They mostly went on here. ;-) > > Oops, sorry, got -hackers and -current mixed up 8-( ...and -chat as well, apparently. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 00:06:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA14225 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA14218 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 00:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA07068; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:53:52 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605290723.QAA07068@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:53:52 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290629.IAA17629@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 29, 96 08:29:09 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 > ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. Add 5-6 levels of indentation (about the sane limit) at ~25 characters, and you have about 100 columns. Take my point? > Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of > us can afford 29-inch monitors). I used a VT220 clone with a 12" screen at 132 columns on a daily basis for about a year with no great trouble, and anyone who knows me will attest to my crapped-out eyesight. Then again, it's narrow-minded thinking like that that's kept monitor prices relatively stable while the price of everything else has plummeted. The thought of a 14" monitor on a PC these days makes my skin crawl. > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 01:45:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19117 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19104 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOgsA-000QZ1C; Wed, 29 May 96 10:44 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA19874; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:41:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199605290841.KAA19874@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:41:54 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605290629.IAA17629@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 29, 96 08:29:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As Michael Smith wrote: > >> Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 > ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. > > Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of > us can afford 29-inch monitors). All a matter of taste. I've already said I don't want to go beyond 110 chars on an xterm, but I run my primary display at 1280x1024 on a 21" monitor and use 6x13 font to get as much text as possible. If I fill out the screen, my xterms have 76 lines of 208 characters. And my eyes have not deteriorated more than those of anybody else of my age. Of course, when we start talking about things like 'eye-damaging', we get into a whole new discussion. What I really don't understand is how many people position their workspace (desk, chair, keyboard, monitor) in such an ergonomically unsuitable manner. I noticed this particularly at SNI, when it seemed that just about *everybody* made the worst they could out of the equipment at their disposition. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 02:11:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20757 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA20751 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOfw8-000QZkC; Wed, 29 May 96 09:44 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA19579; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:28:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199605290728.JAA19579@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605281801.LAA11424@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 28, 96 11:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > >> Automatic beautifiers can only be applied >> to complete, syntactically correct programs and hence >> are not available when the need for attention to white >> space and indentation is greatest. > > [ ... ] > > This is no longer true because of language sensitive editor technology, > as in Brief, the UNIX "Brief clone", and the Borland and Microsoft > offerings. I'm surprised you omit emacs here. >> I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's >> Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! > > At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > CVS commit process. I still like the idea. So do I. This was basically what I was saying. > I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout > from a CVS tree. 8-). This makes sense too, as long as it is optional. > This dodges the "incomplete program" problem, above. Surely we can assume that anything that has been commited will at least make superficial syntactical sense? > Obviously, much of KNF style has evolved from the defaults for the > vi editor and other tools to allow quick reference of the code (ie: > "grep \^functionname *.c" to find: > > > functionname( ... > > and so on. As long as these tools are "the approved tools", then > there needs to be some form of style enforcement to allow them to > work as expected (my own placement of spacing in parenthesis allows > editor macros to directly access tags files and man pages. Obviously, > it's also a tools-driven decision). Precisely. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 02:13:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20896 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA20887 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOfw8-000QZoC; Wed, 29 May 96 09:44 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA19555; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:26:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199605290726.JAA19555@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: rnordier@iafrica.com (Robert Nordier) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:26:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605281940.VAA00188@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 28, 96 09:39:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Nordier writes: > > Terry Lambert wrote: >>> I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's >>> Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! >> >> At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the >> CVS commit process. I still like the idea. >> >> I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout >> from a CVS tree. 8-). > > A local style template on checkout isn't a bad idea. If only 'indent' > were just a little smarter. But (just when things seem to be going > well) it comes up with: > > static char *f_args[F_ARGS] = { > "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ > "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", > "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ >} ; > > static struct BPB stdbpb[BPBCNT] = { > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ >} ; You don't say how you want it to look. This looks OK to me, except for the hanging braces (personal taste). Just for giggles, I ran this fragment through indent and got: static char *f_args [F_ARGS] = { "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ }; static struct BPB stdbpb [BPBCNT] = { {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ }; This is pretty much what I want to see. > I think my main point is that a "What is not forbidden should be made > compulsory" attitude is likely to make a few (maybe eccentric) souls > unhappy. And maybe the issue is just too contentious for common-sense > to prevail. I think this is dodging the point. The point is that one limitation on what you can do in working on somebody else's code is the degree to which you can understand it. If you can do something to improve that situation, this will help you achieve more objectives. One way to work towards this goal is to have style guides. Of course, as Terry point out, a lot of them are based on convention and the tools you use. The FreeBSD style doesn't work well with my tools, which is why I sent out the original message. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 04:53:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA29159 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA29154 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA15722; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:54:44 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 07:54:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Possible hack attempt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was looking at my morning logs after this long weekend and I have this little beauty in them. May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "wiz" command from zeus.central.ntua.gr (147.102.240.1) May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "debug:" command from zeus.central.ntua.gr (147.102.240.1) plus this May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: connect from zeus.central.ntua.gr May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: ttloop: peer died: Undefined error: 0 What would you do if this happened to you? ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | Webmaster of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Sciences Center of West Virginia University | This Space For Rent WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 05:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29975 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29964 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOk9O-000QYlC; Wed, 29 May 96 14:14 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA20498; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:05:29 +0200 Message-Id: <199605291205.OAA20498@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: _Running FreeBSD_ To: dgy@rtd.com (Don Yuniskis) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:05:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605290412.VAA05896@seagull.rtd.com> from "Don Yuniskis" at May 28, 96 09:11:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don Yuniskis writes: > > Just finished skimming your book. I imagine it would > probably be pretty good for a beginner trying to wade > through the muck and mire. Kudos. Thanks. > Couple of things caught my attention, though... :> > I think you'll find "wd" as the name for the disk driver > has it's roots in the terminology "winchester disk". Hmm. Could do, I suppose. I'm copying chat on this to see if anybody else has any information on this. I'll make a note in the sources. > Also, you may wish to double check your description of vty usage > during the install process and the corresponding function keys, etc. > (tho' some of the online prompts are in error, too). Any page numbers? > And, I think you might want to revisit your explanation of "x" perm > bit wrt directories. OK, I've taken a look, but I can't see anything wrong. Is this on page 128? Don't you like the word 'access'? Would 'open' make more sense? Thanks for the feedback. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 05:19:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA00245 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00228 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA07540 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:18:06 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 29 May 1996 13:18:14 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA13838; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:17:36 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605291217.NAA13838@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:17:36 +0100 (BST) Cc: mikee@sys8.wfc.com, stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605280014.RAA23155@antares.aero.org> from "Mike O'Brien" at May 27, 96 05:14:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Mike O'Brien who said > > > There has never been a faster editor [than vi]. > > Well, when we benchmarked the Rand editor against vi, the Rand editor > read in a file four times as fast as vi, and when we read in a file, changed > one character, and wrote it out again, the Rand editor was twice as > fast as vi. This was some years ago; I don't know if the buffer-management > code in vi has been rewritten since then. I think it more the case that vi is faster to *use* i.e. get changes made to your file. That's my opinion anyway, I like the rich set of commands you get from minimum keystrokes. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 11:07:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22173 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (slipper119240.iafrica.com [196.7.119.240]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22166 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00619; Wed, 29 May 1996 20:02:21 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605291802.UAA00619@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 20:02:19 +0200 (SAT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290726.JAA19555@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at May 29, 96 09:26:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > > Robert Nordier writes: > > > > Terry Lambert wrote: [...] > >> At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > >> CVS commit process. I still like the idea. > >> > >> I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout > >> from a CVS tree. 8-). > > > > A local style template on checkout isn't a bad idea. If only 'indent' > > were just a little smarter. But (just when things seem to be going > > well) it comes up with: > > > > static char *f_args[F_ARGS] = { > > "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ > > "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", > > "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ > >} ; > > > > static struct BPB stdbpb[BPBCNT] = { > > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ > > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ > > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ > > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ > > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ > > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ > > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ > > {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ > >} ; > > You don't say how you want it to look. This looks OK to me, except > for the hanging braces (personal taste). [...] Here are the two original fragments: static char *f_args[F_ARGS] = { "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ }; static struct BPB stdbpb[BPBCNT] = { {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ }; What I disliked were the misaligned comments, and the failure to right-justify the columns. > [...] Just for giggles, I ran this > fragment through indent and got: > > static char *f_args [F_ARGS] = > { > "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ > "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", > "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ > }; > > static struct BPB stdbpb [BPBCNT] = > { > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ > {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ > {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ > }; > > This is pretty much what I want to see. Really? Comments all over the place? It looks terrible! :) (OK. OK. In fairness to Greg and 'indent', comments were nicely aligned before 'elm' intervened.) All right. A second pass, or different options (and probably some code changes), can make 'indent' smarter. And it would be great if it could be made to work completely. As I mentioned, the 'indent'<->CVS idea seems good in principle. No-one complains if his source is 'gzip'-ed; because he has only to run 'gunzip' to get it back again. If 'indent' _were_ capable of roughly the same magic (and _were_ capable of handling pseudo-arbitrary local style preferences transparently), that would remove a major potential complaint: "Stop messing with my code". But 'indent' isn't there yet, and it may be a big job to get it there (or acceptably close). Which was my point in citing the code. > > > I think my main point is that a "What is not forbidden should be made > > compulsory" attitude is likely to make a few (maybe eccentric) souls > > unhappy. And maybe the issue is just too contentious for common-sense > > to prevail. > > I think this is dodging the point. The point is that one limitation > on what you can do in working on somebody else's code is the degree to > which you can understand it. If you can do something to improve that > situation, this will help you achieve more objectives. One way to > work towards this goal is to have style guides. Of course, as Terry > point out, a lot of them are based on convention and the tools you > use. The FreeBSD style doesn't work well with my tools, which is why > I sent out the original message. Well, 'religious' objections typically do sidestep the real issues. I wasn't necessarily advancing this as 'sense', but (though possibly less on -hackers than elsewhere) this whole style business frequently generates an extraordinary amount of heat. However, in my original reply to your message, I think I was overestimating the FreeBSD hacker interest (one way or the other) in the issue. Still, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'dodging the point'. As I understand it, a possible scenario is as follows: G: I want everyone to reformat their code like this and this and this. X: But I don't like my code looking that way. What gives you the right to tell me what to do? This just feels wrong. I don't like unnecessary rules. It's extra work for me. [Whinge, mutter....] G: But that's dodging the point. You _should_ take all this trouble, so I can get more work done.... (With heavy exaggeration to get the point across.) As you say, one route is to have style guides. The other route is to run 'indent' yourself, choosing whatever style will best assist your understanding, and that of your tools. Maybe I'm considerably overestimating just what you intend by a style guide. However, unless questions of New Style are to be resolved like questions of Old Style (ie. UTSL), it all seems an awful lot of work. Surely someone has to get 'indent' talking New Style; or document New Style in all its ramifications; or field New Style questions in a new-style mailing list. And then there's all the Old Style code that must be converted. (Which may require, of course, a New Style Inquisitor to deal with stubborn Old Style code which resists conversion. :) OK, I'm not entirely serious ... and not really intending to attack the idea. I think concern about style is decidedly a Good Thing. If none of these potential objections seem compelling, at least some implications may have been considered. Personally, I'd be happy to follow any well-considered set of rules.... -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 11:27:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23317 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (slipper101131.iafrica.com [196.7.101.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23312 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00765; Wed, 29 May 1996 20:22:42 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605291822.UAA00765@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 20:22:41 +0200 (SAT) Cc: coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605291542.IAA07698@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at May 29, 96 08:42:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jason Thorpe wrote: > > On Wed, 29 May 1996 04:17:32 -0700 (PDT) > "Chris J. Layne" wrote: > > > I would be against this sort of thing. Am the only one here who doesn't > > like their code being hammered into someone else's style? > > If companies have coding style standards, why shouldn't a free OS project > have the same? NetBSD, from time to time, makes KNF'ing runs through the > kernel. It's a Good Thing, in the long run, to have the code look > consistent. /usr/share/misc/style is your friend. (Moved to chat.) Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should depend on how everyone feels.... -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 11:39:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24075 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24069 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10835; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605291837.LAA10835@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Robert Nordier Cc: coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:37:03 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996 20:22:41 +0200 (SAT) Robert Nordier wrote: [ Keep me on the CC; I don't read "chat" ... --thorpej ] > Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to > put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same > because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. I don't look at is as a matter of "putting up with them". I, personally, am _very_ glad that code at least _looks_ consistent. That way, you only have to learn how to decipher one "different" style, rather than N. And, if the mandated style just happens to be neat and tidy (such as KNF), then you have some added polish as well. > I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather > promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should > depend on how everyone feels.... See above; "stylistic diversity", in my opinion, is an obstacle to a well-designed system. ----save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/---- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 12:07:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA26058 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (slipper119247.iafrica.com [196.7.119.247]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26040 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01015; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:03:05 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605291903.VAA01015@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:03:04 +0200 (SAT) Cc: coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605291837.LAA10835@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at May 29, 96 11:37:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jason Thorpe wrote: > > On Wed, 29 May 1996 20:22:41 +0200 (SAT) > Robert Nordier wrote: > > [ Keep me on the CC; I don't read "chat" ... --thorpej ] > > > Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to > > put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same > > because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. > > I don't look at is as a matter of "putting up with them". I, personally, > am _very_ glad that code at least _looks_ consistent. That way, you only > have to learn how to decipher one "different" style, rather than N. And, > if the mandated style just happens to be neat and tidy (such as KNF), > then you have some added polish as well. > > > I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather > > promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should > > depend on how everyone feels.... > > See above; "stylistic diversity", in my opinion, is an obstacle to a > well-designed system. Yes, I pretty much agree with all the pluses you mention. It _is_ a matter of tradeoffs, though. As regards the system: a Good Thing. As regards the people contributing: sometimes not so much. _If_ some are going to dislike the rigid _imposition_ of standards, perhaps the standards need to be like the Berkeley copyright: preferred but not obligatory. For a free OS project, I think some pragmatism is needed. Coding standards are valuable, but people are more so. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 12:37:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28978 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28948 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA02209; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605291934.MAA02209@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jason Thorpe cc: Robert Nordier , coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 11:37:03 PDT." <199605291837.LAA10835@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:34:12 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Wed, 29 May 1996 20:22:41 +0200 (SAT) > Robert Nordier wrote: > >[ Keep me on the CC; I don't read "chat" ... --thorpej ] > > > Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to > > put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same > > because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. > >I don't look at is as a matter of "putting up with them". I, personally, >am _very_ glad that code at least _looks_ consistent. That way, you only >have to learn how to decipher one "different" style, rather than N. And, >if the mandated style just happens to be neat and tidy (such as KNF), >then you have some added polish as well. > > > I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather > > promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should > > depend on how everyone feels.... > >See above; "stylistic diversity", in my opinion, is an obstacle to a >well-designed system. For what it's worth, I agree with both of you. :-) The general rule we've used in FreeBSD is: KNF strongly (not strictly) enforced in machine-independant portions of the kernel, and "encouraged" in the machine-dependant portion. We generally don't want to piss off our contributors, but at the same time we want to maintain as much consistency as possible. This isn't a perfect solution, but I believe it's a good compromise. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 13:34:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03985 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03970 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03854; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Robert Nordier cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 29 May 1996 21:03:04 +0200." <199605291903.VAA01015@eac.iafrica.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:32:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3852.833401930@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For a free OS project, I think some pragmatism is needed. Coding standards > are valuable, but people are more so. I could not have put it any more succinctly myself. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 16:35:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24480 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dana.cs.ucdavis.edu (dana.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24417 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:35:08 -0700 (PDT) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: by dana.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.SECLAB.Solaris1-1.0) id AA16928; Wed, 29 May 96 16:35:02 PDT Message-Id: <9605292335.AA16928@dana.cs.ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: <199605291802.UAA00619@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 29, 96 08:02:19 pm X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [...] > > >> At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > > >> CVS commit process. I still like the idea. > > >> > > >> I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout > > >> from a CVS tree. 8-). > > > > > > A local style template on checkout isn't a bad idea. If only 'indent' > > > were just a little smarter. But (just when things seem to be going > > > well) it comes up with: One of biggest problems I see with indent (I last seriously looked at GNU version 1.8 two+ years ago) is that it doesn't truly tokenize your code. Meaning it doesn't turn the input stream of your code into an basic stream of tokens and then output those tokens based on the active formatting rules. With indent, the input format has too much affect on the outputed format. Thus I can feed indent the same code formatted two different ways, run them through indent with the same options and get two different outputs. So before being able to use indent in this way, it *does* need to made smarter. [it is also in *DIRE* need of a complete re-write -- it has been hacked for so many years by so many different places and people, that adding more functionality to it is a real mess! (esp. GNU's indent)] I had to write a little memo on this once at a company that wanted to do exactly this (using indent such that everyone coded their way and on check in to the VCS/CM system format the code the the "standard"). If anyone is really interested, I can post the arguments against indent from it. As a side note, one should also consider if they really want their code being formatted in a very strict way. I (and some I've seen) have a standard way they like to format code, BUT that style has exceptions in certain cases. For instance, I may do: if (foo) return 0; /* done only for things like return, not all one liners */ but generally prefer: if (foo) { bar; } else { baz; } And I might use a more KNF when if conditions that are really, really long. It would be too hard to codify this in a set of rules. I try to code what I think is most pleasing and conveys information the best. (The wisdom of mixing styles and whether these styles really do, is left to follow-ups). -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 16:53:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27650 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA27633 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA09670; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:41:20 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605300011.JAA09670@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:41:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605292049.WAA11482@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at May 29, 96 10:49:58 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wilko Bulte stands accused of saying: > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > Video Option board). *shrug* ...then every one of the twenty or so VT100's I've used in the last decade or so must have had one. 132 columns was part of my standard operating environment. The point remains that all but the worst and oldest hardware around can be coaxed into doing better than the width of a punchcard or an old Fortran coding form. > | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 16:55:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27973 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27966; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.108]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA16087 ; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:55:43 -0700 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id aa22915; 29 May 96 23:54 GMT Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa16924; 30 May 96 0:30 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA16113; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:20:56 GMT Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:20:55 +0000 () From: James Raynard To: Joerg Wunsch cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent mail in yackers In-Reply-To: <199605290634.IAA17741@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > > > You forgot the editor wars! 8-) > > > > > > They mostly went on here. ;-) > > > > Oops, sorry, got -hackers and -current mixed up 8-( > > ...and -chat as well, apparently. ;-) I knew what you meant - and I think you knew what I meant... 8-) James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland jraynard@dial.pipex.com james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 21:33:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA00400 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.206.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00382 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id WAA28640; Wed, 29 May 1996 22:32:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199605300432.WAA28640@intele.net> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:32:35 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290629.IAA17629@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 29, 96 08:29:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith reported: % Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) Joerg Wunsch retorted: > That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 > ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. > > Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of > us can afford 29-inch monitors). Nah, just get a 17" monitor and use 12-point Lucidasans Typewriter. With a 1024x768 X screen, it looks great at 110x40 or so... just like what I see in front of me now! ;^) -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 05:10:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA08044 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (College.ormond.unimelb.edu.au [203.17.189.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA08027 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gavin@localhost) by gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA16855 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:10:15 +1000 From: Gavin Cameron Message-Id: <199605301210.WAA16855@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Multiport ethernet cards & FreeBSD To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:10:15 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'd just like to ask if anyone is using multiport ethernet cards with FreeBSD. I'm looking for 4 ports on a ISA or PCI card. Would I be able to put 2 of these in the same machine? I'll be running 2.1.0 until 2.2 is released. Many thanks in advance Gavin From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 05:54:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA14150 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA14137 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA24609 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:53:27 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 30 May 1996 13:53:30 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA00083; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:52:43 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605301252.NAA00083@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: rnordier@iafrica.com (Robert Nordier) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:52:42 +0100 (BST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605291822.UAA00765@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 29, 96 08:22:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Robert Nordier who said > > (Moved to chat.) Since we're in chat... > > Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to > put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same > because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. Companies have coding standards because it's the only way to ensure that the next guy to look at the code has a chance of working out what the hell is going on. That's the only reason for the things and we *try* and maintain a coding standard in FreeBSD for the same reason. If only the original author is able to comfortably read the code then it's a nightmare to maintain and there's no guarantee that author will be part of the project for ever. I think most of the original team were all KNF coders anyway so most of the code has stayed in good shape but as the project has grown so the coding styles have become more varied. There *IS* a style guide with quite well thought out rules but it doesn't seem like that many people are aware of it. > I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather > promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should > depend on how everyone feels.... Mostly it depends on whether you can be bothered to try and herd sheep. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 08:06:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA11040 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11012 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21006-26507>; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:06:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:06:18 -0400 From: Cat Okita To: Paul Richards cc: Robert Nordier , thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, coredump@nervosa.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-Reply-To: <199605301252.NAA00083@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > > I agree standards are a Good Thing, but possibly FreeBSD should rather > > promote stylistic diversity in the virtual workplace. :) Mostly it should > > depend on how everyone feels.... > > Mostly it depends on whether you can be bothered to try and herd sheep. ...or should that be "As much fun as herding cats"??? cheers! cat From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 08:33:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA14501 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14496 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16610; Thu, 30 May 1996 15:32:57 GMT Message-Id: <199605301532.PAA16610@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA225620376; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:32:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:32:57 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: wes@intele.net Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605300432.WAA28640@intele.net> (message from Barnacle Wes on Wed, 29 May 1996 22:32:35 -0600 (MDT)) Subject: Re: Indentation styles Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Barnacle" == Barnacle Wes writes: Barnacle> Nah, just get a 17" monitor and use 12-point Lucidasans Barnacle> Typewriter. With a 1024x768 X screen, it looks great at Barnacle> 110x40 or so... just like what I see in front of me Barnacle> now! ;^) I absolutely agree. 12 point B&H Lucida Typewriter is one of X's most readable fixed width fonts. I run an unusual 1192x818 resolution with 132 column xterms and emacsen. Fun fun fun. It's unfortunate there's not an italic version of the font; that's the only feature where Adobe Courier does win. Sigh. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 13:19:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19403 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19368 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17203; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:20:26 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA16197 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 22:19:33 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA30891 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 21:39:39 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA08221; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:16:13 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199605301916.VAA08221@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:16:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605300011.JAA09670@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 30, 96 09:41:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote... > > Wilko Bulte stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > > Video Option board). > > *shrug* ...then every one of the twenty or so VT100's I've used in the > last decade or so must have had one. 132 columns was part of my standard Most likely yes. > operating environment. The point remains that all but the worst and > oldest hardware around can be coaxed into doing better than the width > of a punchcard or an old Fortran coding form. Agreed. Wilko _ __________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 14:01:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24394 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24378 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15761; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17253; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:06 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA22977; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:17:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605302017.WAA22977@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Multiport ethernet cards & FreeBSD To: gavin@ormond.unimelb.edu.au (Gavin Cameron) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:17:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605301210.WAA16855@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> from Gavin Cameron at "May 30, 96 10:10:15 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gavin Cameron wrote: > I'd just like to ask if anyone is using multiport ethernet cards with > FreeBSD. That's not me... > > I'm looking for 4 ports on a ISA or PCI card. Would I be able to put 2 > of these in the same machine? I thought the Cogent cards would do it? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 14:01:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24505 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24476 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15700; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:44 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17220; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA22294; Thu, 30 May 1996 20:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605301846.UAA22294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: _Running FreeBSD_ To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:46:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dgy@rtd.com, chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605291205.OAA20498@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "May 29, 96 02:05:29 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > > I think you'll find "wd" as the name for the disk driver > > has it's roots in the terminology "winchester disk". > > Hmm. Could do, I suppose. I'm copying chat on this to see if anybody > else has any information on this. I'll make a note in the sources. I think it's meant to be a ``WD1007'' disk driver (though it also supports the WD1003-style controllers, but only with a slight hang at boot time in timing out the READ PARAMETERS command). The WD1003 was the original PC/AT MFM controller, and our ancient IDE interface is register-compatible to it. The WD1007V (ESDI) controller added the READP command, and that's all until the recent invention of EIDE and its new hackarounds for the limits of the WD1003/7 interface. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 14:02:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24656 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24597 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15803; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:29 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17264; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:28 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA23046; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605302021.WAA23046@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Possible hack attempt To: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jeremy Sigmon at "May 29, 96 07:54:44 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > I was looking at my morning logs after this long weekend and I have > this little beauty in them. > > May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "wiz" command from zeus.central.ntua.gr > (147.102.240.1) > May 26 22:18:42 www:sendmail[8532]: "debug:" command from > zeus.central.ntua.gr (147.102.240.1) > plus this > > May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: connect from zeus.central.ntua.gr > May 26 22:18:11 www:telnet[8531]: ttloop: peer died: Undefined error: 0 > > What would you do if this happened to you? Complain at postmaster@ntua.gr. ntua.gr is the National Technical University in Athen, Greece. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 14:02:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24667 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24610 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15721; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:54 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17238; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA22788; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:46:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605301946.VAA22788@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: wes@intele.net (Barnacle Wes) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:46:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605300432.WAA28640@intele.net> from Barnacle Wes at "May 29, 96 10:32:35 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Barnacle Wes wrote: > > That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 > > ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. > > > > Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of > > us can afford 29-inch monitors). > > Nah, just get a 17" monitor and use 12-point Lucidasans Typewriter. > With a 1024x768 X screen, it looks great at 110x40 or so... just > like what I see in front of me now! ;^) It's about the same i'm using (a full-blown emacs gets 117x49). Anyway, i rather prefer to use the added space for additional windows/ applications, instead of for more characters per line. One often has to toggle back and forth between sources, header files, and man pages while writing some program, so a The typografical rules say ~ 60 chars per line, everything else has to be made two-column (a bit impractical for programs :). Of course, if you've already got 50 columns indentation, then it would require a 110 chars wide display. So it's rather a question of not nesting too deep. I know that stylistic issues are always religious -- but we are on -chat here. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 16:51:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA17120 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17115 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12514; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:51:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:51:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Gavin Cameron cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Multiport ethernet cards & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199605301210.WAA16855@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 May 1996, Gavin Cameron wrote: > I'd just like to ask if anyone is using multiport ethernet cards with > FreeBSD. I am. core1.intersurf.net has 8 ethernet interfaces right now. Only 5 of them are in use, but that will change in the coming months. (Actually I might end up splitting the box... but who knows.) > I'm looking for 4 ports on a ISA or PCI card. Would I be able to put 2 > of these in the same machine? The ZNYX 314s are the ones I'm using. I haven't had any problems with them, other than the ones I cause myself by being awake etc. *grin* > I'll be running 2.1.0 until 2.2 is released. You'll have to run stable. 2.2 isn't the next release from what I hear. 2.1.1 or something. Ask Jordan or whoever is the RE for the next release. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 10:09:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24291 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.tia.net (mailbox.tia.net [205.244.60.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24286 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jo295@localhost) by mailbox.tia.net (8.7.4/8.6.12) id NAA10079; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:13:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph D. Orthoefer" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: kernel config part of /kernel Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anybody remember how kernels built with the 1.1.5 release always had a copy of its config file tacked onto the binary, that could be viewed with a quick "strings /386bsd|more". Is this something anyone else would like to see back in the kernel builds? Just floating a thought, Joseph D. Orthoefer From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 11:16:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27381 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27375 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03556; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:12:02 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199605311812.OAA03556@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: kernel config part of /kernel To: j_orthoefer@tia.net (Joseph D. Orthoefer) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Joseph D. Orthoefer" at May 31, 96 01:13:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Does anybody remember how kernels built with the 1.1.5 release always had > a copy of its config file tacked onto the binary, that could be viewed > with a quick "strings /386bsd|more". Is this something anyone else would > like to see back in the kernel builds? > > Just floating a thought, > Joseph D. Orthoefer > > Me, for one. I didn't want to see it go -- but it was shot down as a waste of memory for the stuff to be in there... I found it useful and we did it at Pyramid in OS/x. (How about conditional compilation to config to allow/disallow it) Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win96 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 13:32:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11177 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11162 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA13004; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: j_orthoefer@tia.net (Joseph D. Orthoefer), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel config part of /kernel In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 May 1996 14:12:02 EDT." <199605311812.OAA03556@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:30:30 -0700 Message-ID: <13002.833574630@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Me, for one. I didn't want to see it go -- but it was shot down as a waste > of memory for the stuff to be in there... I found it useful and we did > it at Pyramid in OS/x. > > (How about conditional compilation to config to allow/disallow it) If someone were to provide the diffs to do exactly this, I'd champion its reintroduction to -current! I also found it to be a handy feature. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 09:53:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28914 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.206.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA28905 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id KAA04871; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:50:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606011650.KAA04871@intele.net> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605301252.NAA00083@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at May 30, 96 01:52:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Nordier asserted: % Companies have coding style standards largely because they pay people to % put up with them. _Maybe_ a free OS project shouldn't have the same % because it doesn't necessarily do to treat volunteers like the hired help. In the assertion failure message, Paul Richards asserted: > Companies have coding standards because it's the only way to ensure that the > next guy to look at the code has a chance of working out what the hell is > going on. Companies (such as mine) have coding standards because so many of their programmers wouldn't now "good style" if it clubbed them over the head, and can't be bothered to even emulate what they see. So we have to club them over the head with rigid style guidelines to make their code not look like some awful mish-mash. If you took the top 5 programmers on my team of twelve and let them code with whatever style they want, you'd get code that looks like it came from one (perhaps slightly schizoid ;^) programmer. We're really that close in personal style. The other 7 or so, however, would revert to writing C++ programs that look like the basic programs they used to print in Antic magazine -- within hours. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 09:54:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29284 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.206.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29271 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id KAA04923; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:53:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606011653.KAA04923@intele.net> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605301532.PAA16610@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at May 30, 96 09:32:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk By way of agreeing with me, Sean Kelly lamented: > I absolutely agree. 12 point B&H Lucida Typewriter is one of X's most > readable fixed width fonts. I run an unusual 1192x818 resolution with > 132 column xterms and emacsen. Fun fun fun. > > It's unfortunate there's not an italic version of the font; that's the > only feature where Adobe Courier does win. Sigh. Ah yes. Any font artistes out there who want to help us out by crafting an italic Lucida Typewriter face? I would greatly appreciate it. ;^) -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 10:22:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06195 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.206.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA06175 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id LAA05505 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:21:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606011721.LAA05505@intele.net> Subject: Re: kernel config part of /kernel To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:21:28 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: <199605311812.OAA03556@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at May 31, 96 02:12:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk % Does anybody remember how kernels built with the 1.1.5 release always had % a copy of its config file tacked onto the binary, that could be viewed % with a quick "strings /386bsd|more". Is this something anyone else would % like to see back in the kernel builds? > Me, for one. I didn't want to see it go -- but it was shot down as a waste > of memory for the stuff to be in there... I found it useful and we did > it at Pyramid in OS/x. > > (How about conditional compilation to config to allow/disallow it) How 'bout sticking it in a segment the kernel loader won't put in RAM? Then it'd only cost a little disk space per kernel. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 11:17:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15026 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15015 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20383 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:17:00 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606011817.UAA20383@grumble.grondar.za> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: I'm back... Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:16:58 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello All A couple of weeks ago I anounced that I was off to hospital for some ops. I am now back, repaired and rearing to go! I had 2 metal rods removed from my back (from an old break 7 years ago), a urinary procedure (which resulted in a nasty bleed and an emergency admission (much excitement ;-) )) 2 days later. Ye gods, this hospital had nurses. I mean /nurses/. They were incredibly good, kind and caring. anyone in Cape Town needs a good private hospital, I'll reccommend the Vincent Pallotti any day. Many thanks to all of you who showed concern, prayed, drank to my health etc. I tried to give a personal response to each, but if anyone got left out, please accept this as both an apology and many thanks! Mark PS: I left my personal net in the hands of someone who did not notice that it broke :-( >:-| so please also accept my apologies for any bounce mail and any other turds that may have clogged the ether during my absence. -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 12:43:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23737 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA23724 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA14480; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:48:14 +0300 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:48:14 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Barnacle Wes cc: Sean Kelly , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-Reply-To: <199606011653.KAA04923@intele.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Sat, 1 Jun 1996, Barnacle Wes wrote: > By way of agreeing with me, Sean Kelly lamented: > > I absolutely agree. 12 point B&H Lucida Typewriter is one of X's most > > readable fixed width fonts. I run an unusual 1192x818 resolution with > > 132 column xterms and emacsen. Fun fun fun. > > > > It's unfortunate there's not an italic version of the font; that's the > > only feature where Adobe Courier does win. Sigh. > > Ah yes. Any font artistes out there who want to help us out by > crafting an italic Lucida Typewriter face? I would greatly appreciate > it. ;^) How about just slant? There are packages to do it quit easily? Whats the copyright on the font anyways? Sander > > -- > Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late > Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder > Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... > wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 20:15:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26972 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26957 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28108; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 23:09:29 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199606020309.XAA28108@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: vt131 To: terry@lambert.org Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 23:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry -- RE: vt100/102 and VT130's -- > From: Terry Lambert > Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:00:02 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: vt100/syscons/pcvt > > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > > > > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > > > Video Option board). > > > > > > > Bzzt. Wrong. The vt100 without AVO would do 14 lines of 132 columns. > > Check the vt100 handbook and old termcap (Uniplus SYS III I think sources...) > > > > Bill > > ex-DEC Field Circus > > Vax and VT100 board shuffler... > > uh... 12 lines. Terry -- are you sure it wasn't 14... 14x132 under EDT is burned in my brain... the docs are in the Crawl Space -- should I take a look or isn't it worth the bother? > > > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > > Video Option board). > > A VT100 without AVO can do 12 row 132 columns. > > The AVO board came with a replacement ROM; if anyone is interested, > a VT100 with an AVO preinstalled is a VT102. I happen to have a > reference manual for a VT102P (VT100+AVO+printer port)... > > Without an AVO, you got to select between reverse and underline > attributes; with AVO, you get revrse, underline, blink, and bold, > simultaneously. You also got insert/delete char/line and a bunch > of lesser additional ANSI commands. > > Yes, I'm a geek who spent way too may years writing emulation software > for a terminal software company (extra points: what's the difference > between a VT130 and a VT131? It's a trick question... 8-)). The memory's a bit hazy -- although I was mostly a Vax and PDP11 guy I took my share of terminal calls on everything from VT52 (80 col 24 lines -- not 12), VT50's (these buggers were worse than 52's), and VT100, VT101 VT102, and VT103's (and the VT125 -- vt100 with Sixel graphics upgrade). The real slick one was the VT05 72 column by 12 lines ALL CAPS. The VT131 was a VT102 with block mode... The VT102 was a VT100 with Printer Port and AVO -- but the VT101/VT102 used a different board set and microcode and had a major number of very UGLY bugs in cursor speed until the later rom revisions (and I think some VMS EDT workarounds to avoid hitting some of these). The Real VT101/102 was a cost reduced one board item instead of the VT100+AVO). The VT101/102 had a smaller power supply and couldn't handle the Q-BUS backplane or VT180 Z80 CPU which made them VT103(Q-BUS) or VT180 (CP/M). I've got both of them here. There was also the PDT11/110 and 11/130 which fitted an LSI-11 chipset in a VT100 making for a kind of workstation running RT11. The 11/130 used TU58 DECtape. The 110 was downloaded over the serial line. There may have been a VT130 -- but I don't remember. Could it have been one of those wierd Newspaper Composition/Editing Tubes like the VT78 based stuff. Actually, if you want WIERD -- there was the multidrop DDCMP VT62 (a 52 with wierd DECnet support and a Reverse Video command and BLOCK MODE designed for a transaction processing system called TRAX (which died or mutated and became RSX-11M+). If I'm wrong -- anyone please correct me... Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win95 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here.