From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 00:24:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA25175 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA25086 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA22246; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:23:58 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA20393; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:23:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA15291; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:13:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607140713.JAA15291@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:13:34 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Jul 13, 96 03:39:25 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John Fieber wrote: > It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to > do with the basic fact that humans are far better at > recognition than recall. Recall may be more efficient, but only > comes after a great time investment in memorization. For > infrequent users, or infrequent tasks, recall will never be as > efficient as recognition. The problem arises, however, that even for frequent users of such a recognition-based system, the efficiency cannot grow beyond a certain point. When looking at the icon and toolbar etc. forest of the typical application of these days, i still believe it's rather done for optics than to improve recognition. I usually get the impression that even the infrequent winloose user has about the same idea about the particular meaning of these 25 icons in the toolbar as me, who does not know anything about these programs at all. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 05:49:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA28909 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28898 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA05577 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:48:53 -0700 Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufPse-000Qc7C; Sun, 14 Jul 96 14:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA21827; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:48:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199607141148.NAA21827@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:48:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 13, 96 03:39:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > >> 'cause fewer and fewer people know how to use a keyboard. >> >> That's why kindergarten icon games like winloose have the reputation >> of being ``user-friendly''. > > It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to > do with the basic fact that humans are far better at > recognition than recall. Recall may be more efficient, but only > comes after a great time investment in memorization. For > infrequent users, or infrequent tasks, recall will never be as > efficient as recognition. While I agree with this, I'm not sure it's relevant. > Unix systems trivialize recognition enabled interfaces, Windows, > and to a greater degree Mac, trivialize recall enabled > interfaces. A vast majority of the computing market has made it > pretty clear that if a compromise must be made, it will be in > favor of recognition. No doubt about that. However, we're looking at a different problem here. There's no conflict between a touch-typist's keyboard and a hunt-and-pecker's keyboard. The touch-typist looks for positions, the hunt-and-pecker looks for the keycaps (that's why they're reverting to ideograms like this Microsoft key for people who can't read). There's absolutely *no* reason to put a switch like CapsLock where it can be used in conjunction with other keys. Equally, there's absolutely *no* reason to put keys like the F keys where it's difficult to use them in conjunction with other keys. I believe even Microslop uses things like Alt-F4, don't they? How does a touch typist do that on one of these "ergonomic" keyboards? > It is important enough that people will put up with cheesy operating > systems that crash on a regular basis if that is the only way to get > it. People put up with Microslop because they're uneducated, not because it's the only way to get recognition-based user interfaces. I think the real problem we have at the moment is that the computer market is no longer technology-driven: it's market driven instead. Why did they change the keyboard layout to put the F keys up the top again? Some marketeer decided it would sell better that way. You can bet he can't type. BTW, what does this Microslop key do? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 08:49:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13329 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13267; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA19290; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:48:16 -0300 (EST) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199607141548.MAA19290@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:48:16 -0300 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au, terry@lambert.org, phk@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607130802.KAA22896@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jul 13, 96 10:02:26 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL14 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(J Wunsch) // As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: // // > I agree, how about this for a revolution: // > // > I have this idea about putting tcl in the kernel. I can imagine some // > rather interesting possibilities this would give us. // // Ah, this is the so-called ``kitchen-sink'' kernel then! I was thinking about a completely different opioin this week. What if the config program could make the kernel something like a microkernel ? For example, suppose I want to build an embedded BSD (in EPROM) just to make some kind of industrial process control. I would not need lots of things. For example: SWAP, FS support (MFS and/or NFS only !), networking, console, and maybe even some system calls could disappear. I have a friend making some tests on this and he cannot make something less than 300K for the kernel. It' still too much for such an application. Just an idea, of course... :) Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 08:50:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13611 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13592 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17187; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:49:10 GMT Message-Id: <199607141549.PAA17187@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA208889373; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:49:33 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:49:33 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: nate@mt.sri.com Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, miker@cs.utexas.edu In-Reply-To: <199607140437.WAA13056@rocky.mt.sri.com> (message from Nate Williams on Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:37:44 -0600 (MDT)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Nate" == Nate Williams writes: >> You are explicitly requested to demand at most the >> distribution costs as a fee, but nothing more. Nate> Nope, the GPL allows you to charge whatever you want. (See? Two interpretations already, and J"org and Nate aren't even lawyers! :-) Here's a third: You can charge whatever you want. But if you don't include the source code, you have to provide an option to get the source code (valid for three years) at a cost no higher than physically performing such distribution of the source only. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 08:58:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15128 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15100 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17189; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:58:35 GMT Message-Id: <199607141558.PAA17189@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA209029938; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:58:58 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:58:58 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607140713.JAA15291@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:13:34 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "J"org" == J Wunsch writes: J"org> When looking at the icon and toolbar etc. forest of the J"org> typical application of these days, i still believe it's J"org> rather done for optics than to improve recognition. For optics? You mean sex appeal, right? Icons are a waste of screen space. The argument that ``a picture worth is worth a thousand words'' doesn't hold any water when most icons actually represent just one or two words. The argument that they encourage internationalization is bogus because cultural reference bases enforce different meanings on different symbols. Even within a culture, meanings are ambiguous: does the magnifying glass mean zoom-in or search? If it means search, then what are bionoculars for? And there are just some meanings for which there are no good icons. My favorite examples that demonstrate this fact are my icons for `load' and `save.' I'll spare you the ASCII art, but consider a pile of dark dog sh*t, with fumes rising and even a fly or two circling. That's load, obviously. For save, just use a Christian-styled cross. Don't forget the federally-required 3-D borders. :-) The sad thing is, after wasting 4096 pixels for a 64x64 icon, most applications still put one or two words underneath to remind you what the fool thing is supposed to mean! Yow! Does sex ever sell. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 09:08:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17540 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17523 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17220; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:08:22 GMT Message-Id: <199607141608.QAA17220@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA209190520; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:08:41 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:08:41 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: grog@lemis.de Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607141148.NAA21827@allegro.lemis.de> (grog@lemis.de) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: Greg> Why did they change the keyboard layout to put the F keys up Greg> the top again? Some marketeer decided it would sell better Greg> that way. You can bet he can't type. He might've been able to type anyway. Assertion: newer is better. :-) What was Nuprin's marketing scheme for their analgesic tablets that Terry Lambert cleverly quoted at one time: little, yellow, different. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 10:51:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15654 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA15567 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA20539; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:50:44 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA25116; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:50:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA11979; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:33:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607141733.TAA11979@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:33:28 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607141148.NAA21827@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 14, 96 01:48:40 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > Why did they change the keyboard layout to put the F keys up the top > again? Some marketeer decided it would sell better that way. You can > bet he can't type. Possible. However, i believe the F keys were moved to the top by the time the keyboard grew from 84 to 101/102 keys. It would be a fair amount wider these days if they were still on the left. > BTW, what does this Microslop key do? They generate Meta_L and Meta_R. -- In XFree86. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 12:16:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01123 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01116 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02352; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:15:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:15:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu Reply-To: John Fieber To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607140713.JAA15291@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > The problem arises, however, that even for frequent users of such a > recognition-based system, the efficiency cannot grow beyond a certain > point. I think that is a minor problem. In fact, studies show that although people percieve keyboard shortcuts (recall) as being faster than pulling down a menu (recognition), when actually measured, people perform about the same with both. Granted, this cannot be fully generalized to cover all tasks, nor is it fully representative of a unix style command line interface. Also, percieved difference are critical in marketing whether they are real or not. The real problem that drives unix power-users ape is that current recognition based interfaces typically have hard-coded non-extensible functionality. Nobody has devised an *efficient* visual method for assembling and saving new functionality from existing components as in the unix pipeline model with shell scripts. The research on this front falls under the category of "programming by example" and is for the most part just that: research (I can provide some reference for anyone interested). Macro recording has been around for quite a while, but beyond fairly trivial tasks, a regression into old fashioned textual programming is required. I'd love to find a visual regular expresnion builder; I'm always having to re-read the manual page whenever I want to construct something non-trivial. > When looking at the icon and toolbar etc. forest of the typical > application of these days, i still believe it's rather done for optics > than to improve recognition. I think toolbars should default to being hidden. They are most useful *after* someone has used a piece of software for a while and discovered which are the most frequently used features, some of which may be burried in a deep menu or dialog box. I suspect toolbars are mostly confusing to a new user, and the icons are usually a joke. I'll bet the icon artists couldn't even pass a "what does this icon mean" test. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 12:30:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02309 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02304 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02376; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:30:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:30:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607141558.PAA17189@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > The argument that ``a picture > worth is worth a thousand words'' doesn't hold any water when most > icons actually represent just one or two words. Universal, culturally neutral, self-evident icons are a myth, but once an icon mapping has been learned, it can be much quicker to pick out an icon among others than a word among others. There is a reason road signs are not all rectangular with black text on a white background! The shape and color of a stop sign represents only a single word, but it would be a heck of a lot less effective if it were only represented textually. The same goes for icons I use for iconified applications on my X desktop. A picture of an envelope means one thing (email), but I can identify and get the mouse to it in an instant. It is much slower without the image and requires linguistic brain effort. (Whether the use of screen space is warranted is separate issue.) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 13:23:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12314 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12278 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02447; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:21:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:21:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607141148.NAA21827@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: I wrote: > > It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to > > While I agree with this, I'm not sure it's relevant. The statement as I understood it was that because people are poor with the keyboard, they find icon based more friendly. My response is that other factors have a much greater bearing on people's preference for icon based interfaces. On the topic of how to make keyboards more usable, yes it is irrelevant. Different topics. :-> > hunt-and-pecker looks for the keycaps (that's why they're reverting to > ideograms like this Microsoft key for people who can't read). I think that is a completely unwarranted conclusion. There are *many* motivations to use icons that are completely unrelated to the literacy of users. If someone can't read, having three keys on the keyboard with pictures instead of letters or words isn't going to make a bit of difference in their ability to use Windows. Even if it were motivated by helping out illiterate people, do you have a problem with that? > There's > absolutely *no* reason to put a switch like CapsLock where it can be > used in conjunction with other keys. I'm certainly with you here! Thank goodness for xmodmap. I've also got another keyboard that has a switch on the bottom to swap caps-lock and control. > I believe even Microslop uses things > like Alt-F4, don't they? How does a touch typist do that on one of > these "ergonomic" keyboards? Same way as always, either strain your hands, or use one hand for alt and the other for F4. Incidentally, on the MS keyboard, because of the "Windows" keys, the space bar is a little shorter and the alt keys moved inward enough to make them easily usable by the thumb. This is better because the thumb, while the strongest, is the most under utilized in typing on regular keyboards. The little finger gets a much deserved break on alt-heavy programs, and with control mapped just left of the A, control combinations are not too much of a strain on that weakest finger. > > It is important enough that people will put up with cheesy operating > > systems that crash on a regular basis if that is the only way to get > > it. > > People put up with Microslop because they're uneducated, not because > it's the only way to get recognition-based user interfaces. Practically, MS and Apple the only options. Unlike us techno-dweebs, most people purchase the operating system that runs their applications, not the applications that run on their operating system. Decent recognition-based applications are simply not being developed for non-windows/mac environments. OS/2 could be in the running but it doesn't have the application base and if all you do is run Windows applications, using OS/2 buys you very little. Even with this CDE monstrosity, Unix doesn't enter the competition and NextStep isn't really a viable solution in many settings. (No comment on NT since I have no direct experience with it.) In business settings most people don't really have a choice what they use, at home they do but practicality demands compatibility with what they have at work. > BTW, what does this Microslop key do? Under XFree86, the "Windows" keys by default generate Meta_L and Meta_R and the menu key generates the Menu keysym (which, to my surprise, a fair number of programs respond to appropriately). Of course, you can xmodmap them to anything you like. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 14:13:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22864 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA22851 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA21920; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:14:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:14:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: John Fieber cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > > BTW, what does this Microslop key do? > > Under XFree86, the "Windows" keys by default generate Meta_L and > Meta_R and the menu key generates the Menu keysym (which, to my > surprise, a fair number of programs respond to appropriately). > Of course, you can xmodmap them to anything you like. Hmmm, I'm using fvwm95 and none of the windows or menu keys work... any ideas? Vince From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 14:59:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00222 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00178 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA05319; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:58:45 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:58:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199607142158.RAA05319@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miker@cs.utexas.edu In-reply-to: <199607131854.UAA01619@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:54:48 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is >> in some way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why >> (esp. vs. the BSD copyright)? > . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution > once you have modified some of the source code, and intend to > redistrib- ute your modified work. Er... Well, to redistribute your work, you normally have to be allied with a software distributor, right? > . You are explicitly requested to demand at most the distribution > costs as a fee, but nothing more. WHAT??? That's a common copyright, but not GPL. WC offers tapes and CD's of GNU software, and GNU themselves make most of the profit from selling their products. The GPL does not prohibit commercial sales, only proprietary confidentiality. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 15:06:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01398 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01384 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA05369; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:05:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:05:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199607142205.SAA05369@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: nate@mt.sri.com CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, miker@cs.utexas.edu In-reply-to: <199607140437.WAA13056@rocky.mt.sri.com> (message from Nate Williams on Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:37:44 -0600 (MDT)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 'packaging' of the code, and not the code itself. In effect, > programmers become 'publishers', since the time and effort we > spend coding isn't worth any monetary value unless it's done for > the sake of 'maintenance'. Once the code is written, the code has I'd say a point which should be brought out is, although not being disjoint or in contradition with your statement, in contrast with it, and is this: (69 shift/reduce conflicts) Even rms himself has made commercial products. If the product needs to be built, people are willing to pay for it to be built. The only difference is that the product is then free, and other people can also get the same benefits. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 15:28:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05228 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05214 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15798; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607142228.QAA15798@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL In-Reply-To: <199607142205.SAA05369@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> References: <199607140437.WAA13056@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199607142205.SAA05369@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck writes: > > > > 'packaging' of the code, and not the code itself. In effect, > > programmers become 'publishers', since the time and effort we > > spend coding isn't worth any monetary value unless it's done for > > the sake of 'maintenance'. Once the code is written, the code has > > I'd say a point which should be brought out is, although not being > disjoint or in contradition with your statement, in contrast with it, > and is this: (69 shift/reduce conflicts) > > Even rms himself has made commercial products. If the product needs > to be built, people are willing to pay for it to be built. The only > difference is that the product is then free, and other people can also > get the same benefits. No arguement from me there. But, as I stated above. The value is *NOT* in the product, but in the time taken to 'do' the product. So, in effect programmers are relegated to being high-paid 'service' providers rather than 'producing' a product. This sounds rather innocuous at first until you realize many of the possible ramifications. Does the phrase 'would you like fries (a GUI) with that burger (editor)' ring a bell? The quality of the implementation becomes less important than the 'existence' of a current implementation. 'Evolutionary' code becomes the norm because 'revolutionary' requires a lot more time and effort, and recouping those (significant!) development costs is at best difficult and at worst impossible. At one point 'gcc' was one of the best compilers on the market, but it is no longer. It *IS* the most portable compiler around, but almost every other vendor-compiler compliles tighter code, and does it *much* faster. The bar has been raised by GPL code, but it still hasn't proven that it can 'replace' proprietary code, even in the areas where it as succeeded the most. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 16:57:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13690 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13649 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA09806; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:56:41 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA10580; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:58:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:58:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: John Fieber cc: Sean Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > white background! The shape and color of a stop sign represents > only a single word, but it would be a heck of a lot less > effective if it were only represented textually. > The same goes for icons I use for iconified applications on my X > desktop. A picture of an envelope means one thing (email), but I > can identify and get the mouse to it in an instant. It is much > slower without the image and requires linguistic brain effort. I realize you know what you are talking about, but I have to ask if you have ever seen any specific research proving this. (time passes while I ask :). In the case of a road sign--a road sign is something you almost always see indirectly. You're always trying to drive at the same time, and even if you're not, the road sign is still going to be unexpected in that it is always one road sign, instead of one road sign in a pool of a thousand road signs. I'm not sure it can be compared to seeing an icon. An icon will usually be amidst many other icons. When searching for an icon, one is specifically looking for a specific icon--something not often the case with a road sign. I know, when reading a sheet of paper, or a computer screen, if my name is written on it somewhere, it almost always pops out immediately with little more than a glance at the paper or screen. When looking for a specific word or word sequence in a large text file, if you scroll it up a screen and pay attention the whole time, I'll bet you find it first time even if the text is being scrolled 5-10 times to fast to be read normally. I think that text can be recognized very quickly. I'm sure that, over time, the same would be true for graphic icons. However, unless there is a large advantage in recognition time for an icon (which I don't think there is), there are other advantages that make text-based names better. Words, letters, are more precise than graphics. Obviously, they're more universal in that the blind can use them. While, with time, I think it would be possible for research to create regexps that match graphical icons, and create icons that clearly match their meaning, I don't think icons will ever have the breadth of possible meaning that a textual name does. I'm not contending the usefulness and friendliness of a GUI; rather, I'm suggesting that an icon can simply not replace the name of a command, for example, `rm', `cp', `find', `ls', etc.. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 17:02:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA14478 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14471 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA11352; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:01:56 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10683; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:16:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:16:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Joerg Wunsch cc: Greg Lehey , jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607131836.UAA01435@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Greg Lehey wrote: > > touch-typist. That's why I'm still holding on to my dying Northgate > > keyboards, which have the F keys on the left, where I can access them > > without looking. Why did they ever move them away to where you can't > > find them? > > 'cause fewer and fewer people know how to use a keyboard. What!? Those F keys are much easier to hit when their up at the top of the keyboard! Now, you want to talk about misplaced keys, look at the , or better yet, , `~', ``', and --- they're too far away. The F keys, however are greatly placed! Just curl the thumb to hit the and extend a finger and you're gone! By tilting one's left hand to the left, you can even hit at the same time! I love it! OTOH, I suppose if your fingers are less than 10cm each (that's 4 inches for all the Americans here :) it could be a little harder... ;) To be fair, I suppose the last time I did try the `F' keys on the left I was about 10 (years).... However, trying to hit virtual F keys on the left must be a pretty good approximation... :) Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer still had three buttons... -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 17:32:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18428 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA18405 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id CAA29764; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:32:16 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id CAA28743; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:32:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA13294; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:51:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607142351.BAA13294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:51:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607142158.RAA05319@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jul 14, 96 05:58:45 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution > > once you have modified some of the source code, and intend to > > redistrib- ute your modified work. > > Er... Well, to redistribute your work, you normally have to be allied > with a software distributor, right? No. Not if you are a small company serving a dozen or so small customers. It's not your primary interest to distribute software, but to provide solutions then. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 18:06:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24793 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24777 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA18214; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:06:08 GMT Message-Id: <199607150106.BAA18214@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA216272792; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:06:32 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:06:32 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:16:33 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: Tim> What!? Those F keys are much easier to hit when their up at Tim> the top of the keyboard! What!? On the left or the right they're hard to reach. If you have to leave home row to do it, it's not worth doing. Tim> Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer Tim> still had three buttons... Ahh, yes. Some people have suggested that having to move off home row to use the mouse might help reduce repetitive stress injury (RSI). -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 18:13:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA26049 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA26038 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA18233; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:13:22 GMT Message-Id: <199607150113.BAA18233@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA216453226; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:13:47 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 19:13:47 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: jfieber@indiana.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from John Fieber on Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:30:41 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: John> Universal, culturally neutral, self-evident icons are a John> myth, but once an icon mapping has been learned, it can be John> much quicker to pick out an icon among others than a word John> among others. There is a reason road signs are not all John> rectangular with black text on a white background! Except that road signs usually aren't lined up in a perfect, uniform row in a toolbar, with all the same widths, heights, and all the same colors. If they varied in size, shape, color, and placement---like road signs---it'd be quite easy to pick out the search icon and the zoom-in icon. John> (Whether the use of screen space is warranted is separate John> issue.) Warning, entering Edward Tufte mode: At each workstation are two powerful information processing units: the brain and the computer. Yet all communication between these two units must pass through the low-bandwidth computer monitor. Making efficient use of monitor space is therefore paramount; destroy all icons as they waste precious screen real estate! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 20:37:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA14745 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA14724 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA24341; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:36:49 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA22222; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:38:29 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sean Kelly cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607150106.BAA18214@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > Tim> What!? Those F keys are much easier to hit when their up at > Tim> the top of the keyboard! > > What!? On the left or the right they're hard to reach. If you have > to leave home row to do it, it's not worth doing. Oh dear. I thought someone was argueing that they were easier to hit when they were to the far left. My intention was to prove them wrong and furthermore to prove that they're best up at the top. I guess the effort was unnecessary... :) > Some people have suggested that having to move off home row to use the > mouse might help reduce repetitive stress injury (RSI). My personal belief is that RSI is gotten only be persons who try to sit so that they look like they are self-disciplined hard-workers. I don't expect that to change unless I myself am inflicted with it. ;) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 21:07:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA19838 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA19828 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA18731; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:07:27 GMT Message-Id: <199607150407.EAA18731@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA220923672; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:07:52 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:07:52 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:38:28 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: Tim> Oh dear. I thought someone was argueing that they were Tim> easier to hit when they were to the far left. Greg Lehey was ... I was just trying to be difficult ... :-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 14 23:05:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA03149 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03130 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA00801; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA11718; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:06:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sean Kelly cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607150407.EAA18731@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > Tim> Oh dear. I thought someone was argueing that they were > Tim> easier to hit when they were to the far left. > > Greg Lehey was ... I was just trying to be difficult ... :-) I guess my initial reaction to ask you what you did when you had to hit a qwertyiop key wouldn't have been out of place, then... :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 00:17:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09154 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09142; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05804; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199607150717.CAA05804@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: I ask you to respond to Linus To: chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:17:35 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey guys, Linus just attacked me publically in a very uncalled for way on USENET. I responded as strongly as I could, but there was no reason for him to call me a liar. I value integrity more highly than ANY programming skill. Please try to convince him to publically retract his statement. I did respond very aggressively, but it was deserved. If his posting was forged, I would publically apologize to him, but I have NO REASON to suspect that. The flamewar had settled down, and this thing came out of the blue. I know that he is young, but this is ridiculous. Thanks John From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 00:39:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA11214 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11201; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA18993; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:38:24 -0700 (PDT) To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:17:35 CDT." <199607150717.CAA05804@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: <18991.837416304@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Uh... Shit. John, I think this is now bordering on seriously bad publicity and the LAST thing we need is for core members to get into public slanging matches with Linus on USENET! I can only suggest that you stop reading USENET entirely since, from an external perspective, your antics have become uncomfortably similar to those of a dog in a cage who's being teased by kids with sticks. A frantically barking dog with foam all over himself is not a very pretty picture, nor does the dog himself enjoy the experience very much. I would like to ask that NONE of the people here post aggressive followups to this thread, and if anything it should have died entirely at least a week ago. I do understand John's desire to rebutt unfair claims or criticism, and it's a desire that I also share, but there are limits and the limit was passed on this one quite awhile back. The entirely McVoy thread was a MISTAKE, a tremendous waste of time, energy and bits and I can only ask that we PLEASE let it die! Don't compound the error by flaming Linus in turn and keeping that whole sorry affair alive for another n weeks. This WILL blow over if left to itself, trust me. I've been reading USENET (and mostly hating it) since 1978. :-) I myself will post exactly one message in follow-up to it, and that will be to suggest that things have gone too far and it's truly time to end it before we're all even sorrier than we are now. Jordan > > Linus just attacked me publically in a very uncalled for way > on USENET. I responded as strongly as I could, but there was > no reason for him to call me a liar. I value integrity more > highly than ANY programming skill. Please try to convince him > to publically retract his statement. > > I did respond very aggressively, but it was deserved. If his > posting was forged, I would publically apologize to him, but > I have NO REASON to suspect that. > > The flamewar had settled down, and this thing came out of the > blue. I know that he is young, but this is ridiculous. > > Thanks > John From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 00:50:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12547 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12536; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA01025; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607150750.AAA01025@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:17:35 CDT." <199607150717.CAA05804@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:50:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John, just cool it . I do suspect that linus is trying to get you upset and perhaps upset enough to get you upset. Please note that when I requested on Usenet for his computer configuration he did not respond 8) Regards, Amancio >From The Desk Of "John S. Dyson" : > Hey guys, > > Linus just attacked me publically in a very uncalled for way > on USENET. I responded as strongly as I could, but there was > no reason for him to call me a liar. I value integrity more > highly than ANY programming skill. Please try to convince him > to publically retract his statement. > > I did respond very aggressively, but it was deserved. If his > posting was forged, I would publically apologize to him, but > I have NO REASON to suspect that. > > The flamewar had settled down, and this thing came out of the > blue. I know that he is young, but this is ridiculous. > > Thanks > John From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 02:00:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA18284 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA18150; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06036; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:59:50 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199607150859.DAA06036@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:59:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <18991.837416304@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 15, 96 00:38:24 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Uh... Shit. > Damn it, the asshole called me a LIAR, and I DEMAND a public rebuttal. I had no control over the situation, and the thing had settled down. All of a sudden, he popped up with this one. The only valid response to him is to demand a public apology. There was ABSOLUTELY NO evidence of such. This thing came out of the blue, there was even some pleasant "chat" between him and I before this. The guy is a snake. There is only one thing that I DEMAND, and that is my integrity MUST NOT BE CALLED into question. When I make a mistake, I apologize. That helps me maintain it (my integrity.) Linus himself is a bold faced liar. John From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 02:45:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA23427 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA23419; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA23614; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:45:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:45:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-Reply-To: <199607150717.CAA05804@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, John S. Dyson wrote: > Linus just attacked me publically in a very uncalled for way > on USENET. I responded as strongly as I could, but there was > no reason for him to call me a liar. I value integrity more > highly than ANY programming skill. Please try to convince him > to publically retract his statement. John, as much your point was valid, I really think you should have just left that whole thing alone. > I did respond very aggressively, but it was deserved. If his > posting was forged, I would publically apologize to him, but > I have NO REASON to suspect that. > > The flamewar had settled down, and this thing came out of the > blue. I know that he is young, but this is ridiculous. No, fussing about a benchmark is ridiculous. I know that this is a matter of personal pride in some ways, but I don't think that its that big of an issue. If you feel that lmbench isn't an accurate benchmark, maybe you need to come up with one that meets your approval. Just because Linux does better on one particular aspect of one benchmark doesn't mean that Linux is a better OS. I've followed some of the work that Alan Cox (and others) did on the Linux networking code, and portions of it are as fast as they can get, as they're hand optimized for the pentium. I realize that the more zealous members of the Linux community take great pains to try to put down all other OSs, but I doubt we've a need to follow their example. I apologise if my perceptions of this issue are flawed or off base. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 02:55:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA24061 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA24047; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA24071; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:55:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:55:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-Reply-To: <18991.837416304@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > John, I think this is now bordering on seriously bad publicity and the > LAST thing we need is for core members to get into public slanging > matches with Linus on USENET! Bingo Jordan! You've hit the nail on the head. I was gleefully hacking away in the living room and one of my roommates came out and said something to the effect "man, have you been following the whole TCP latency thread on Usenet? Dyson is making himself look like a nut[1]." Now, this person is a Linux user, and a very successfull one at that. He's above the petty "Linux vs. FreeBSD" argeuments, and can appriciate the good things in FreeBSD. He's just got too much time invested in Linux to change, and as they say 'if its not broke, don't fix it.' I'm saying all of this so that its clear that this person doesn't really have any vendetta against FreeBSD or any of the core team members. Linux has many more people using it that are just waiting for someone that they can get in a pissing contest with. We can't win that battle, nor should we want to. Its just not worth it. IMHO we've all got much more important things to be doing with our energy. Matthew "Now I've got to upgrade all the production boxes to 2.1.5." Dodd As always, have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| 1. Clearly this is not the case, though one may argue that many of the core contributors to Linux and FreeBSD nuts just on general principle. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 03:05:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA24971 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA24966 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA08603 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:05:11 -0700 Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufkU2-000QfEC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 12:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA04501; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:48:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199607150948.LAA04501@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:48:22 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Veggy Vinny" at Jul 14, 96 02:14:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Veggy Vinny writes: > > On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > >>> BTW, what does this Microslop key do? >> >> Under XFree86, the "Windows" keys by default generate Meta_L and >> Meta_R and the menu key generates the Menu keysym (which, to my >> surprise, a fair number of programs respond to appropriately). >> Of course, you can xmodmap them to anything you like. > > Hmmm, I'm using fvwm95 and none of the windows or menu keys > work... any ideas? Yes. Ignore them. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 03:33:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27076 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27071; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA00433; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607151033.DAA00433@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org, core@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:45:31 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:33:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Matthew N. Dodd" : > I apologise if my perceptions of this issue are flawed or off base. Well, it is a matter of approach . The linux people go around saying that Linux floats and is able to jump over OSes with a single key stroke. If we let this sort of things go on like in the past, people will believe it ! The trick is to limit our responses if we have to resort to long threads then the issue gets lost . Now a bit on the TCP Latency Thread... I noticed that linus *did not* bother posting his OS version nor his computer configuration if you ask me he probably just got a quick hack done to his OS and then went on to proclaim that all past an future versions of Linux have the same performance 8) As for Dyson looking like a nut -- I don't think he looked that way to me . linus on the other hand to the keen eye sure looks like a clown to me. Along with baby clown larry. With respect to fending off "wild eyed crazed linux fanatics" on USENET so far the FreeBSD community has done a good job . We just have to keep cool 8) BTW: Dyson, I do believe that linus is trying to tease you into anger and I noticed that the linux clowns are not saying anything about it and from the tone of your last posting it seems that linus has accomplish his task. Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 03:57:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA28217 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28210 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22589 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uflGV-000QfhC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 12:52 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA04523; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:06:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199607151006.MAA04523@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:06:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 14, 96 00:16:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > >> As Greg Lehey wrote: >>> touch-typist. That's why I'm still holding on to my dying Northgate >>> keyboards, which have the F keys on the left, where I can access them >>> without looking. Why did they ever move them away to where you can't >>> find them? >> >> 'cause fewer and fewer people know how to use a keyboard. > > What!? Those F keys are much easier to hit when their up at the top of > the keyboard! I wasn't talking about how to hit them, I was talking about how to get to them when touch-typing. I suppose I should make it clear at the outset that there's no way to access F keys as easily as the base keys, no matter where you put them. But I maintain that it's easier to do so if they're on the left than if they're above. > Now, you want to talk about misplaced keys, look at the , or > better yet, , `~', ``', and --- they're too far away. What do you use ScrollLock and Pause for? And yes, one of the big disadvantages of my Northdgate keyboard is that it has the \ and ~ keys in ridiculous positions. But nothing's perfect (or even comes close). > The F keys, however are greatly placed! Just curl the thumb to hit the > and extend a finger and you're gone! I tried this with Alt-F1. The easiest way to do it is with the thumb on Alt and the forefinger on the F1. In this position, the other fingers are over the top half of the left-hand pad, which suggests it should be easier to reach than the top. > By tilting one's left hand to > the left, you can even hit at the same time! Yup, I can even manage that, but it requires the forefinger on CTRL and the middle finger on F1. > I love it! It hurts. > OTOH, I suppose if your fingers are less than 10cm each (that's 4 inches > for all the Americans here :) it could be a little harder... ;) This must be the problem. I never thought I had short fingers, but my forefinger is 7.8 cm (3 1/16") long, my middle finger is 8.7 cm (3 1/2"), and my ring finger is 8 cm (3 1/4"), if that's relevant to this discussion. > To be fair, I suppose the last time I did try the `F' keys on the left I > was about 10 (years).... However, trying to hit virtual F keys on the > left must be a pretty good approximation... :) What did you use them for? As I mentioned a while back, I use emacs a lot. A lot of the more complicated functions have key combinations like c-m-F1 (the example I was talking about). That's a lot easier to hit when F1 is on the left, though of course it's not as easy as c-m-S or some such. > Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer still had three > buttons... You mean you let them palm you off with less? Your own fault. Of course, mice are a whole different kettle of fish. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 05:05:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA02456 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02449 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA22987 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufmMB-000QfnC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 14:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA04572; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:14:28 +0200 Message-Id: <199607151114.NAA04572@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Icons (was: FreeBSD keyboard) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:14:28 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607140713.JAA15291@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 14, 96 09:13:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As John Fieber wrote: > >> It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to >> do with the basic fact that humans are far better at >> recognition than recall. Recall may be more efficient, but only >> comes after a great time investment in memorization. For >> infrequent users, or infrequent tasks, recall will never be as >> efficient as recognition. > > The problem arises, however, that even for frequent users of such a > recognition-based system, the efficiency cannot grow beyond a certain > point. Indeed. You can learn it in a day, and you spend the rest of the time you use it paying for doing so. > When looking at the icon and toolbar etc. forest of the typical > application of these days, i still believe it's rather done for optics > than to improve recognition. I usually get the impression that even > the infrequent winloose user has about the same idea about the > particular meaning of these 25 icons in the toolbar as me, who does > not know anything about these programs at all. I think the icon approach has outlived its utility. Once upon a time, when windows-oriented programs had limited utility and people didn't demand too much in the way of functionality, and icons were a convenient way to help them. Now I suspect they confuse more than they help. Certainly I share your hatred of these cluttered "modern" screens. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 05:08:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA02591 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA02584 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id OAA04442 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:07:39 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA04322 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:07:38 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16338 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:00:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607151200.OAA16338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:00:52 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607151006.MAA04523@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 15, 96 12:06:50 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > What did you use them for? As I mentioned a while back, I use emacs a > lot. A lot of the more complicated functions have key combinations > like c-m-F1 (the example I was talking about). That's a lot easier to > hit when F1 is on the left, though of course it's not as easy as c-m-S > or some such. Well, you don't need these F-keys anymore now! :-) Simply map your previous binding for C-M-F1 to say C-A-a now, and use the left Windows95 key for generating the `A' modifier. <:) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 05:13:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA02862 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02857 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA22991 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufmMC-000QfoC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 14:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA04607; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:23:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199607151123.NAA04607@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: icons (was: FreeBSD keyboard) To: jfieber@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:23:33 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 14, 96 02:15:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > >> The problem arises, however, that even for frequent users of such a >> recognition-based system, the efficiency cannot grow beyond a certain >> point. > > I think that is a minor problem. In fact, studies show that > although people percieve keyboard shortcuts (recall) as being > faster than pulling down a menu (recognition), when actually > measured, people perform about the same with both. Granted, this > cannot be fully generalized to cover all tasks, nor is it fully > representative of a unix style command line interface. Also, > percieved difference are critical in marketing whether they are > real or not. This may the case when the number of choices is small. When you consider the number of key combinations which Emacs recognizes, menus become very inefficient. I introduced my wife to Emacs just a few weeks ago, showing her the menus at the top of the screen, but she prefers to use the key combinations because it's easier than navigating all the menus. > The real problem that drives unix power-users ape is that current > recognition based interfaces typically have hard-coded > non-extensible functionality. Nobody has devised an *efficient* > visual method for assembling and saving new functionality from > existing components as in the unix pipeline model with shell > scripts. The research on this front falls under the category of > "programming by example" and is for the most part just that: > research (I can provide some reference for anyone interested). > Macro recording has been around for quite a while, but beyond > fairly trivial tasks, a regression into old fashioned textual > programming is required. Granted. As I said in another message, menus aren't flexible enough. > I'd love to find a visual regular expresnion builder; I'm always > having to re-read the manual page whenever I want to construct > something non-trivial. Now *that* would be nice. Maybe it's even doable. >> When looking at the icon and toolbar etc. forest of the typical >> application of these days, i still believe it's rather done for optics >> than to improve recognition. > > I think toolbars should default to being hidden. They are most > useful *after* someone has used a piece of software for a while > and discovered which are the most frequently used features, some > of which may be burried in a deep menu or dialog box. I suspect > toolbars are mostly confusing to a new user, and the icons are > usually a joke. I'll bet the icon artists couldn't even pass a > "what does this icon mean" test. Hmmm. I'm not sure that I agree with you on this one, but it's not that important anyway. If the functionality were easier to understand, the icons would be too. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 06:16:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA05710 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA05703; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA06445; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:16:19 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199607151316.IAA06445@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:16:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: winter@jurai.net, dyson@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org, core@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607151033.DAA00433@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jul 15, 96 03:33:35 am Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > BTW: Dyson, I do believe that linus is trying to tease you into anger and > I noticed that the linux clowns are not saying anything about it and > from the tone of your last posting it seems that linus has accomplish > his task. > I understand that now more and more. A specific question was asked to me by Pedro, and I gave him a reasoned response -- I could, because he was being reasonable. However I redirected his question *slightly* to the problem at hand by reminding him that the discussion that I was involved with was a result of certain people making claims based upon not-yet existant benchmark results. I am not interested, nor have I volunteered any results that compare the networking suites directly (I did tell Linus what TCP localhost transfer rate that I was getting, but that was a response to a direct question.) That is what got Linus upset, because strategically, I believe that they were trying to overcome the "BSD Networking" mistique. Additionally, all they have been able to demonstrate, so far, is approximately "equivalent" performance in the networking code proper with little or no load. I think that there has been a movement in Linux to show that Linux is faster than FreeBSD, and they are showing in reality, that at best (under no load) it that is equal in certain areas... Linus must be very frustrated by that. The biggest problem is that the benchmark suite that is cited as being able to definitively show the performance difference is inadequate for the task. John From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 06:57:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07743 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07738 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id au09135; 15 Jul 96 14:48 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id ab03450; 14 Jul 96 0:46 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA02254; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:25:16 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:25:16 GMT Message-Id: <199607131825.SAA02254@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: miker@cs.utexas.edu CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607131746.MAA03210@oink.cs.utexas.edu> (message from Hung Michael Nguyen on Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:12 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Hung Michael Nguyen writes: > > Hello, > I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is in some > way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why (esp. vs. the BSD > copyright)? Here is an entry I am considering putting in the next version of the FAQ:- Why don't you use the GPL?

The FreeBSD core team made a conscious decision not to distribute new code under the GPL (GNU Public Licence) as they felt that the standard Berkeley copyright better met their aims of making software widely available under the simplest possible licensing conditions. However, code already in the source tree is subject to various copyrights, depending on how the author chose to distribute it, including the GPL. GPL'd code is being re-written, wherever feasible, in the interests of greater consistency, but there is some code, such as the C compiler, which is unlikely ever to be re-written.

Here is a Berkeley copyright notice, in its entirety:- [BSD copyright snipped] Interested readers are invited to obtain a copy of the GPL (too long to reproduce here, alas) and decide for themselves on the relative merits of the two copyrights. Discussions on this topic probably belong in the gnu.* Usenet hierarchy. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 07:49:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14664 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14654 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23409 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufmMA-000QfhC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 14:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA04597; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:19:03 +0200 Message-Id: <199607151119.NAA04597@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:19:03 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607141733.TAA11979@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 14, 96 07:33:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Why did they change the keyboard layout to put the F keys up the top >> again? Some marketeer decided it would sell better that way. You can >> bet he can't type. > > Possible. However, i believe the F keys were moved to the top by the > time the keyboard grew from 84 to 101/102 keys. It would be a fair > amount wider these days if they were still on the left. Sure, and possibly this was one of the reasons. There are other ways of reducing the width, though. >> BTW, what does this Microslop key do? > > They generate Meta_L and Meta_R. > > In XFree86. :-) And what do they do in 95%? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 07:52:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14958 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14953 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23416 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ufmMB-000QflC; Mon, 15 Jul 96 14:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA04587; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:17:38 +0200 Message-Id: <199607151117.NAA04587@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:17:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607141608.QAA17220@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Jul 14, 96 10:08:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly writes: > >>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: > > Greg> Why did they change the keyboard layout to put the F keys up > Greg> the top again? Some marketeer decided it would sell better > Greg> that way. You can bet he can't type. > > He might've been able to type anyway. Assertion: newer is better. :-) If he'd been able to type, he could easily have found something newer which wasn't objectively worse. > What was Nuprin's marketing scheme for their analgesic tablets that > Terry Lambert cleverly quoted at one time: little, yellow, different. ... and they make you sick? I can even see the marketeer's point of view in wanting to bring out something new and different. But even marketeers appreciate that that's not enough: it has to be at least as good as it was before. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 07:56:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA15228 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15217 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20359; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:55:52 GMT Message-Id: <199607151455.OAA20359@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA268502577; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:56:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:56:17 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:06:12 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: Tim> I guess my initial reaction to ask you what you did when you Tim> had to hit a qwertyiop key wouldn't have been out of place, Tim> then... :) Not at all! Anyway, what I really ought to do is move to a Dvorak keyboard. A friend of mine and I used to have a typing speed competition going. We both peaked out about 100 wpm; he's later exceeded that by moving to Dvorak. I noticed an X program out there called xdvorak ... I'm hoping it's a Dvorak keyboard typing tutor (but more likely its just glitz riding atop xmodmap). -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 08:14:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16229 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16224 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20456; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:14:32 GMT Message-Id: <199607151514.PAA20456@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA268773695; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:14:55 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:14:55 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: grog@lemis.de Cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607151006.MAA04523@allegro.lemis.de> (grog@lemis.de) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: Greg> What do you use ScrollLock and Pause for? I realize this isn't directed at me, but I'm compelled to answer. Two of the most useful keys from Sun keyboards and OpenWindows were the Front and Open keys (L5 and L7). Front brings an occluded window to the top of the stacking order, otherwise it sends it to the bottom. Open deiconifies an icon, and iconifies a window. That's for what I use ScrollLock and Pause. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 10:37:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25795 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25785 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05669; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:35:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:35:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: icons (was: FreeBSD keyboard) In-Reply-To: <199607151123.NAA04607@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > This may the case when the number of choices is small. When you > consider the number of key combinations which Emacs recognizes, menus > become very inefficient. I introduced my wife to Emacs just a few > weeks ago, showing her the menus at the top of the screen, but she > prefers to use the key combinations because it's easier than > navigating all the menus. A couple counterpoints: 1) It would be difficult to design menus worse than those that come with emacs. Xemacs is marginally better, but not a lot. What makes them difficult to navigate is that they are function oriented. Look around at easy to use menus and the common factor is not size, but a task oriented organization (which, regretably comes with a different set of limitations). 2) Are the control-shift-alt-meta-hyper-x r control-meta-b commands really that efficient? Bringing it back to keyboards, what about hand strain? Back when I was a regular emacs user, I actually unbound many of the cursor movement commands from alphabetic keys, forcing myself to use the keypad. It slowed me down a tiny bit, but my hands sure felt better. 3) Emacs has too many functions! ;-) It represents CISC architecture in its peak. I've been a long time emacs user, but have ditched for a "user friendly' RISC editor (nedit) and must say that there are very few features of emacs that I really miss (syntax highlighting, and psgml mode). (editor flames > /dev/null) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 10:40:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26064 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26056 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05676; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:39:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:39:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Veggy Vinny cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > Hmmm, I'm using fvwm95 and none of the windows or menu keys > work... any ideas? They may be different in older versions of XFree86; I'm using 3.1.2E. Use the xev program to find out what the keys are generating. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 10:41:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26135 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26129 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA22194; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA26505; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:42:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sean Kelly cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, grog@lemis.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607151455.OAA20359@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Anyway, what I really ought to do is move to a Dvorak keyboard. A > friend of mine and I used to have a typing speed competition going. > We both peaked out about 100 wpm; he's later exceeded that by moving > to Dvorak. I've always thought that would be a good thing to do, but am scared by the thought of an intermediary period where I wouldn't be able to use either Dvorak or qwerty without confusing them... -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 10:56:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27091 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27029 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05716; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:55:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:55:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607150113.BAA18233@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Except that road signs usually aren't lined up in a perfect, uniform > row in a toolbar, with all the same widths, heights, and all the same > colors. Depends on where you drive. Shall I send out some photos of real road signs? :-) Around here there are a couple places that have uniform rows of 6-8 rectangular white signs with black two digit highway numbers and arrows. They are impossible to use unless you have the good fortune to hit a red light so you can stop and study them for a while. At the other end, you can have 6-8 signs with different shapes and colors for the type of road (state highway, US interstate, turnpike, etc.) it is a simple matter to pick out the one you are after with a glance. > Warning, entering Edward Tufte mode: > > At each workstation are two powerful information processing units: the > brain and the computer. Yet all communication between these two units > must pass through the low-bandwidth computer monitor. Making > efficient use of monitor space is therefore paramount; destroy all > icons as they waste precious screen real estate! Hmm... I wouldn't associate Tufte with such a wholesale disposal of a visual communication tool. Then again, I've only read one of his books and it had almost nothing about computer interfaces. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 11:05:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27562 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27555 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA05726; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:03:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:03:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607151455.OAA20359@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > I noticed an X program out there called xdvorak ... I'm hoping it's a > Dvorak keyboard typing tutor (but more likely its just glitz riding > atop xmodmap). It just remaps. It uses the X api directly, not xmodmap. It also messes up on some cheap Mac and Windows X servers. I have a tweaked version which uses Microsoft's dvorak layout, which is the most common handling of the keys in the upper right quadrant of the keyboard ([{}]=+). The best dvorak tutor is a little keyboard picture taped just below your monitor. I'm by no means a fast typist, I peak at around 30 words per minute on qwerty and 80 words per minute on dvorak. Your mileage may vary. If you are typing 100 words per minute on qwerty, I doubt going dvorak will make a huge change. It might increase endurance though, since all the vowels and snthd are on the home row. Excursions to the bottom row are quite rare. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 11:08:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27735 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27713; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07701; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:08:35 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA14027; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:07:55 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id UAA03895; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:07:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607151807.UAA03895@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:07:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, winter@jurai.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607151316.IAA06445@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Jul 15, 96 08:16:19 am" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2232 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that John S. Dyson said: > The biggest problem is that the benchmark suite that is cited as being > able to definitively show the performance difference is inadequate for > the task. John, I can understand your anger but, really, it is not worth it. You should know that asking for a public apology won't probably be answered but realize that WHATEVER THE OUTCOME of the flame war, everyone will be losing (by eveyone I mean the entire free UNIXes community) credit in the eyes of potential "converts". Most people won't care about how many usec each system would take to do anything, they'll just see that the two community are just flinging bad words at each others. NO FLAME WAR is worth that, John. Yes, I know Linus is young. Yes, I know he has a big head (I've met and discussed with him so I hope nobody will say that I'm too biaised), probably too big. So what ? I just hope things are not too far... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #15: Sun Jul 14 17:33:54 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 11:15:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28200 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28192 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23588; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03709; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607151006.MAA04523@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek writes: > I wasn't talking about how to hit them, I was talking about how to get > to them when touch-typing. Me too! > I suppose I should make it clear at the > outset that there's no way to access F keys as easily as the base > keys, no matter where you put them. But I maintain that it's easier > to do so if they're on the left than if they're above. Maybe your hands are in some way dysfunctional? :) > > The F keys, however are greatly placed! Just curl the thumb to hit the > > and extend a finger and you're gone! > > I tried this with Alt-F1. The easiest way to do it is with the thumb > on Alt and the forefinger on the F1. In this position, the other > fingers are over the top half of the left-hand pad, which suggests it > should be easier to reach than the top. Forefinger?!?! My God! No wonder the rest of your hand ends up over top half of the left-hand pad! You should be using the finger right between the pinky and the middle finger (ring finger). If you follow the `xsw2' up a little bit, you'll find it ends up on F1 on most keyboards (I expect). > > By tilting one's left hand to > > the left, you can even hit at the same time! > > Yup, I can even manage that, but it requires the forefinger on CTRL > and the middle finger on F1. What on earth are you doing here!? You can't possibly be using the finger beside your thumb (the forefinger) to hit the ctrl!? That's ludicrous! You have to hit the with the bottom of the knuckle of your pinkie finger. > > I love it! > > It hurts. No. What hurts is twisting one's hand to hit the arrow keys, which are stupidly placed far enough to the right that you can't hit them without twisting your wrist in ways it's certainly not meant to be. > > OTOH, I suppose if your fingers are less than 10cm each (that's 4 inches > > for all the Americans here :) it could be a little harder... ;) > > This must be the problem. I never thought I had short fingers, but my > forefinger is 7.8 cm (3 1/16") long, my middle finger is 8.7 cm (3 > 1/2"), and my ring finger is 8 cm (3 1/4"), if that's relevant to this > discussion. Well, my fingers are 10, 11, 10.5, and 7cm from index to pinkie respectively. I suppose this could be part of your problem... ;) > > To be fair, I suppose the last time I did try the `F' keys on the left I > > was about 10 (years).... However, trying to hit virtual F keys on the > > left must be a pretty good approximation... :) > > What did you use them for? As I mentioned a while back, I use emacs a > lot. A lot of the more complicated functions have key combinations > like c-m-F1 (the example I was talking about). That's a lot easier to > hit when F1 is on the left, though of course it's not as easy as c-m-S > or some such. 7 years ago what did I use them for? No idea... probably not much, since at that time I was still trying to figure out howcome the computer would boot off of dad's floppies and not mine, or why (Sanyo) basic always locked up when I accidentally doubled the `l' in `list'... I just can't see myself hit the F keys on the left nearly as easily as when they're up at the top. Have to twist my wrist quite nastily. > > Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer still had three > > buttons... > > You mean you let them palm you off with less? Your own fault. I feel so guilty. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 11:22:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28617 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28611 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA05733; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:05:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:05:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > I've always thought that would be a good thing to do, but am scared by > the thought of an intermediary period where I wouldn't be able to use > either Dvorak or qwerty without confusing them... I have not found confusing them to be much of a problem, although learning is a bit painful (not physically). -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 12:09:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02298 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02293 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA19302; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:09:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: John Fieber cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > Hmmm, I'm using fvwm95 and none of the windows or menu keys > > work... any ideas? > > They may be different in older versions of XFree86; I'm using > 3.1.2E. Use the xev program to find out what the keys are > generating. I'm using XFree86 3.1.2S or whatever the newest one is for -current is on ftp.FreeBSD.ORG.... xev shows the following: Left Windows button: KeyRelease event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4233899788, (-10,-130), root:(97,96), state 0x0, keycode 115 (keysym 0xffe7, Meta_L), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 characters: "" FocusOut event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, mode NotifyNormal, detail NotifyNonlinear VisibilityNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, state VisibilityFullyObscured Right Windows Button: KeyRelease event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4233945956, (89,11), root:(196,237), state 0x0, keycode 116 (keysym 0xffe8, Meta_R), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 characters: "" MotionNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4233947226, (91,11), root:(198,237), state 0x0, is_hint 0, same_screen YES MotionNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4233947256, (125,3), root:(232,229), state 0x0, is_hint 0, same_screen YES LeaveNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4233947286, (163,-25), root:(270,201), mode NotifyNormal, detail NotifyNonlinear, same_screen YES, focus YES, state 0 FocusOut event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, mode NotifyNormal, detail NotifyNonlinear VisibilityNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, state VisibilityFullyObscured The Windows Menu Key: KeyPress event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, root 0x2b, subw 0x0, time 4234003188, (216,-1), root:(323,225), state 0x0, keycode 64 (keysym 0xffe9, Alt_L), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 characters: "" FocusOut event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, mode NotifyGrab, detail NotifyAncestor VisibilityNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, state VisibilityFullyObscured FocusOut event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, mode NotifyWhileGrabbed, detail NotifyNonlinear ColormapNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, colormap 0x26, new NO, state ColormapUninstalled ColormapNotify event, serial 17, synthetic NO, window 0x3c00001, colormap 0x26, new NO, state ColormapInstalled How do I get these keys to work in color xterms and netscape and stuff like that? Vince From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 12:13:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02615 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02608 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22363; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:13:02 GMT Message-Id: <199607151913.TAA22363@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA020568009; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:13:29 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:13:29 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: jfieber@indiana.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from John Fieber on Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:55:58 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: John> Depends on where you drive. Shall I send out some photos of John> real road signs? :-) I guess the signs are fake where I am ... :-) Obviously the work of college pranksters: sneaking out in the middle of the night and improving things. John> Around here there are a couple places that have uniform rows John> of 6-8 rectangular white signs with black two digit highway John> numbers and arrows. Where the heck is this? I see `indiana' in your email/web address ... John> Hmm... I wouldn't associate Tufte with such a wholesale John> disposal of a visual communication tool. Then again, I've John> only read one of his books and it had almost nothing about John> computer interfaces. I recommend _Envisioning Information_ by Tufte (Graphics Press 1990, ISBN 0-9613921-1-8). Loaded with good stuff, and does include some stuff on user interfaces. I reread it often for inspiration as much as information. Here's the relevant passage from _Envisioning_: Shown above are convential graphical interfaces, with scroll bars, multiple windows, and computer administrative debris. ... Noise is costly, since computer displays are low-resolution devices, working at extremely thin data densities, 1/10 to 1/1000 of a map or book page. This reflects the essential dilemma of a computer display: at every screen are two powerful information-processing capabilities, human and computer. Yet all communication between the two must pass through the low-resolution, narrow-band video display terminal, which chokes off fast, precise, and complex communication. I recently got to attend a special one-day course by Tufte where he reiterated and expanded on his principles with regard to icons and windows and what-not. He didn't have very nice things to say about the Web either. ;-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 12:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03203 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03198 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22406; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:21:12 GMT Message-Id: <199607151921.TAA22406@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA020708499; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:21:39 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:21:39 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Cc: grog@lemis.de, hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:15:29 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Vanderhoek writes: >> Yup, I can even manage that, but it requires the forefinger on >> CTRL and the middle finger on F1. Tim> What on earth are you doing here!? You can't possibly be Tim> using the finger beside your thumb (the forefinger) to hit Tim> the ctrl!? That's ludicrous! You have to hit the Tim> with the bottom of the knuckle of your pinkie finger. Bottom knuckle of the pinkie finger? You must be using the wrong type of keyboard. :-) The One True Location Of The Control Key Shall Be Found To The Immediate Left Of The A Key. And If It Is Not There Already, Ye Shall Modmap Or Kbdcontrol It Such That It Is. :-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 12:23:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03299 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03294; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02389; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607151923.MAA02389@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: dyson@FreeBSD.org cc: winter@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.org, core@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:16:19 CDT." <199607151316.IAA06445@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:23:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "John S. Dyson" : > > > I think that there has been a movement in Linux to show that Linux is faster > than FreeBSD, and they are showing in reality, that at best (under no load) i t > that is equal in certain areas... Linus must be very frustrated by that. > > The biggest problem is that the benchmark suite that is cited as being > able to definitively show the performance difference is inadequate for > the task. I would say that their biggest problem is to prove that their new networking code works at all 8) It is kind of cute to show benchmark results even if they are not directly applicable;however, it is a different story to place the same OS in a production environment. It looks like the linux crowd threw everything they had at the networking code and after years of efforts they come up well code just about as fast as the BSD code . So they got a wheel just as fast as ours 8) Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 12:54:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05859 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-03.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05834 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA08249; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:53:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199607151953.PAA08249@garion.hq.ferg.com> X-Authentication-Warning: garion.hq.ferg.com: Host localhost.hq.ferg.com didn't use HELO protocol From: Branson Matheson To: John Fieber cc: Sean Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:03:49 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:53:57 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -------- John Fieber uttered with conviction: >On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > > It just remaps. It uses the X api directly, not xmod map. It also > messes up on some cheap Mac and Windows X servers. I have a tweaked > version which uses Microsoft's dvorak layout, which is the most > common handling of the keys in the upper rig ht quadrant of the > keyboard ([{}]=+). > > The best dvorak tutor is a little keyboard picture ta ped just below > your monitor. > > I'm by no means a fast typist, I peak at around 30 wo rds per minute > on qwerty and 80 words per minute on dvorak. Your mileage may vary. > If you are typing 100 words per minute on qwerty, I doubt going > dvorak will make a huge change. It might increase endurance though, > since all the vowels and snthd are on the home row. Excursions to > the bottom row are quite rare. ok... so where does one get a dvorak keyboard? -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 14:10:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15467 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15425 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06259; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:09:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:09:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Branson Matheson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607151953.PAA08249@garion.hq.ferg.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Branson Matheson wrote: > ok... so where does one get a dvorak keyboard? Many places. If you are using a fairly recent version of FreeBSD and use syscons, you can use kbdcontrol to load a dvorak keymap which can be found in /usr/share/syscons/keymaps. If you use a recent version of XFree86 with the keyboard extension, it comes with a dvorak layout option. Most any xterminal will work with the xdvorak program. The Amiga comes with a dvorak keymap standard. Some versions of MS-DOS came with dvorak keymaps. I think you can download an "extras" disks from Microsoft for recent versions of MS-DOS that includes a dvorak layout. Dvorak keymaps are readily available for the Macintosh, although there is a lot of variation among them. The one I use is available from Dvorak International. I may still have a line of emacs code to remap if you live in emacs and must use a dumb terminal. I once had a dvorak keymap file for NextStep. Back when I used CP/M, I used a keyboard macro program to make a dvorak keymap. I think that covers most environments in common use. http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak has some more info. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 14:26:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17611 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17597; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03212; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607152125.OAA03212@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Narvi cc: dyson@freebsd.org, winter@jurai.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:20:35 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:25:41 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Narvi : > Hmmm... That damn latency... How abou asking them for tcpblast results? > Perhaps there are some serious problems with their code that they use the > results of just one benchmark? > > Sander Who knows what the real reason is . However one can imply that the linux crowd wants us to do the analysis for them 8) Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:21:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22029 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22019 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA07381 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:21:16 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA10546 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:21:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18178 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:08:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607152208.AAA18178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: icons (was: FreeBSD keyboard) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:08:12 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Jul 15, 96 12:35:57 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John Fieber wrote: > 1) It would be difficult to design menus worse than those that > come with emacs. :-) > 2) Are the control-shift-alt-meta-hyper-x r control-meta-b > commands really that efficient? Bringing it back to Probably. However, one of the commands that is used very often is C-h a. If you don't have problems in typing quickly, you will often find it easier to M-x command-na, since this is what you can better memorize. Emacs makes this working style rather easy to use. Other programs might work with fewer keystrokes, but i think the total amount of time to express the same is roughly equivalent. > 3) Emacs has too many functions! ;-) Yes. :-) But don't forget: Emacs ain't an editor. Emacs is a Lisp interpreter that happens to have some specific hook for editing text files. If it was not that quite a bunch of keys were bound to the function ``self-insert-command'', you wouldn't even get the idea it might be an editor. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:22:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22200 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22188; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA07377; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:21:14 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA10545; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:21:14 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18156; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:00:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607152200.AAA18156@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:00:51 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607151923.MAA02389@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 15, 96 12:23:49 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > It looks like the linux crowd threw everything they had at the networking > code and after years of efforts they come up well code just about > as fast as the BSD code . So they got a wheel just as fast as ours 8) Perhaps faster in some circumstances. Don't make the same mistakes as Linus does in judging something by name and quick glances only. (``As to _why_ Linux is that fast, the reason is simply that Linux has a better interface to the kernel than any other UNIX I know about.'' -- The only explanation why one would not call this sentence `arrogant' might be that Linus perhaps doesn't know very many other UNIXes.) You should not listen to the shouting people. However, have a look at the guy called `Pedro'. No, you don't find him in the hot parts of the discussion... but his argumentations makes sense, and he seems to have a couple of valid points. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:36:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA23471 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-03.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA23339 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA09115; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:27:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199607152127.RAA09115@garion.hq.ferg.com> X-Authentication-Warning: garion.hq.ferg.com: Host localhost.hq.ferg.com didn't use HELO protocol From: Branson Matheson To: Sean Kelly cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:21:39 MDT." <199607151921.TAA22406@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:27:28 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -------- > You must be using the wrong type of keyboard. :-) > > The One True Location Of The Control Key Shall Be Fou nd To The > Immediate Left Of The A Key. > > And If It Is Not There Already, Ye Shall Modmap Or Kb dcontrol It > Such That It Is. ARRRGHHHH... this comming from somone that uses unix on PC keyboards.... You foul miscreant, you purporter of heathen ideology, read the sacred writings on the wall and repent! |---- The Wall ---- | |The ctrl key belongs in the bottom left corner .. next to alt and |under shift! | |Just like the Esc belongs in the top left and tilde under it and |backspace on the right hand side of the '=/+' key! | |-- End of The Wall -- But this is what i do in any case, as the caps lock is rather useless on a unix system: xmodmap -e "remove lock = Caps_Lock" xmodmap -e "add control = Caps_Lock" Problem solved.. no matter where you 'expect it to be. However a real question: Has anyone used those mouse pad thingys ( the one that you use your finger on ) with X? I was wondering if it is useful. -branson PS> The worst keyboard I have yet to see is the HP version with the itty bitty enter key and the escape next to it?!?! ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:44:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24588 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA24572 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA08783; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:44:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:44:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199607152244.SAA08783@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607142351.BAA13294@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:51:17 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution >>> once you have modified some of the source code, and intend to >>> redistrib- ute your modified work. >> Er... Well, to redistribute your work, you normally have to be >> allied with a software distributor, right? > No. Not if you are a small company serving a dozen or so small > customers. It's not your primary interest to distribute software, > but to provide solutions then. Then you need only provide the source to those. If they choose to redistribute, it is their obligation to provide your source, no longer yours. Your only obligation to provide source is to the extent that you provide binaries. And you have no obligation whatsoever to provide binaries. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:53:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25284 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25263; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA08804; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:53:15 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:53:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199607152253.SAA08804@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: dyson@freebsd.org CC: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607150717.CAA05804@dyson.iquest.net> (toor@dyson.iquest.net) Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hey guys, Linus just attacked me publically in a very uncalled for > way on USENET. I responded as strongly as I could, but there was > no reason for him to call me a liar. I value integrity more > highly than ANY programming skill. Please try to convince him to > publically retract his statement. For those of us who haven't been following every USENET group as closely as we perhaps should, what was the exchange in question? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 15:58:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25900 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25879 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21464; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:58:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:58:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607152258.QAA21464@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL In-Reply-To: <199607152244.SAA08783@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> References: <199607142351.BAA13294@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199607152244.SAA08783@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution > >>> once you have modified some of the source code, and intend to > >>> redistribute your modified work. .. > >> Er... Well, to redistribute your work, you normally have to be > >> allied with a software distributor, right? ... > > No. Not if you are a small company serving a dozen or so small > > customers. It's not your primary interest to distribute software, > > but to provide solutions then. > > Then you need only provide the source to those. If they choose to > redistribute, it is their obligation to provide your source, no longer > yours. So you become a 'software redistribution institution' to a small number of folks instead of a large number of folks. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 16:26:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA28677 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA28665 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id TAA08896; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:25:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:25:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199607152325.TAA08896@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: nate@mt.sri.com CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607152258.QAA21464@rocky.mt.sri.com> (message from Nate Williams on Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:58:02 -0600 (MDT)) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> You are forced to become a software redistribution >>>>> institution once you have modified some of the source code, >>>>> and intend to redistribute your modified work. >>>> Er... Well, to redistribute your work, you normally have to be >>>> allied with a software distributor, right? >>> No. Not if you are a small company serving a dozen or so small >>> customers. >> Then you need only provide the source to those. If they choose to >> redistribute, it is their obligation to provide your source, no >> longer yours. > So you become a 'software redistribution institution' to a small > number of folks instead of a large number of folks. :) That's a task you already undertook. You decided to distribute the program, even if that entails only a single tape. One method of satisfying the GPL means handing them an extra tape with the sources. Note that the only requirement that involves things like taking orders, et al is in paragraph 3b, but you only need to perform one of the qualifications in 3[abc], so giving them the source at the same time as the binaries cleans your backside. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 16:42:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29499 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29494 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA17332; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:25:55 EDT." <199607152325.TAA08896@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:42:21 -0700 Message-ID: <17330.837474141@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That's a task you already undertook. You decided to distribute the > program, even if that entails only a single tape. One method of > satisfying the GPL means handing them an extra tape with the sources. I think all of this somewhat misses the point. It's not important so much for *us*, since as you say we're already distributing sources and in the software distribution business, more or less. Whom it's important to are folks who'd like to take FreeBSD and develop proprietary strains of it, releasing binary only versions. Some might find such a scenario distasteful, but I don't feel it's our position to judge "good uses" from "bad ones" and if someone wishes to make a go at doing a commercial version, I feel I've done by job by putting as few barriers in their way as possible. This is where the GPL/RMS and I differ significantly. He'd like to prevent people from creating proprietary software as part of a wider agenda (for which I support the general goal, just not the means), I too would like to see more free software but believe firmly in the carrot rather than the stick. Whether the carrot or the stick works better in practice is almost immaterial since I simply cannot justify (to myself) the use of sticks anyway. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 16:52:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA00347 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00340 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06679; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:32:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:32:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > In the case of a road sign--a road sign is something you almost > always see indirectly. You're always trying to drive at the same time, > and even if you're not, the road sign is still going to be unexpected in > that it is always one road sign, instead of one road sign in a pool of a > thousand road signs. Have you ever driven in, say, Boston? :-) Poles and overpasses will often half half a dozen or more signs on them. Picking out the one you need to read by text alone takes far to long and in a place like Boston, that extra second could be the difference between making and missing an exit. As I mentioned in another message, where I live (Bloomington Indiana) we have a few intersections with 6 or 8 signs and because they are all uniform (rectangular, white background black two digit numbers, a qualifier of north, south, east, or west, and an arrow). If you (a) know ahead of time which direction you need to go, (b) you happen to get a red light at the intersection, allowing some time to read the signs, or (c) you have binoculars so you can read the signs from a long way back, you will likely end up going the wrong direction. Out of town visitors who I've given directions to are emperical evidence of this. > I know, when reading a sheet of paper, or a computer screen, if my name > is written on it somewhere, it almost always pops out immediately with > little more than a glance at the paper or screen. This is speculation, but I would venture a guess that your own name is a special case and it may be processed visually rather than linguistically. > When looking for a > specific word or word sequence in a large text file, if you scroll it up > a screen and pay attention the whole time, I'll bet you find it first > time even if the text is being scrolled 5-10 times to fast to be read > normally. Gee, I wish *I* could do that. :-) > I'm not contending the usefulness and friendliness of a GUI; rather, I'm > suggesting that an icon can simply not replace the name of a command, for > example, `rm', `cp', `find', `ls', etc.. And you wouldn't want it to. Making a good GUI typically involves a completely different approach to the problem. Simply making icons for commands isn't going to be useful. Look at the Macintosh finder, which offers most of the functionality of rm, cp, find, and ls. The whole mode of interaction is changed. Things are gained, you can spot files more quickly with icons than text alone; moving files is much quicker. Things are also lost, you can't easily rm `find -name '*.o'`. -john ps: pester me again if you want citations; I'm in a bit of a hurry at this instant. == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 17:02:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01271 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01262 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA17451; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:01:07 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:32:06 CDT." Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <17449.837475267@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Have you ever driven in, say, Boston? :-) And have you ever driven in, say, Germany? :-) Some of the sign poles in villages are so festooned with different signs that you'll often see one or more in conflict with one another. Anyone who reads "Warner" comics will get a kick out of his frequent confusion at being presented with conflicting instructions (then he simply rides over the signpost, being a tough German motorcycle kinda guy :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 19:10:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA15285 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15280 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id WAA03055; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:12:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: nate@mt.sri.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL In-Reply-To: <199607152325.TAA08896@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > So you become a 'software redistribution institution' to a small > > number of folks instead of a large number of folks. :) > That's a task you already undertook. You decided to distribute the > program, even if that entails only a single tape. One method of > satisfying the GPL means handing them an extra tape with the sources. > Note that the only requirement that involves things like taking > orders, et al is in paragraph 3b, but you only need to perform one of > the qualifications in 3[abc], so giving them the source at the same > time as the binaries cleans your backside. I think you're missing the point. What is the point of developing software, when you have to give the sources to anyone who asks, and you can't stop them from redistributing from there. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 19:52:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20773 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20763 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07042; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:52:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:52:12 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <17449.837475267@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Have you ever driven in, say, Boston? :-) > > And have you ever driven in, say, Germany? :-) Nope. I did spend some time driving around Scotland. Outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh, there were hardly any signs, except in a few tourist traps like Loch Ness. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 15 22:15:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04454 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04438 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA28168; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:12:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Fieber cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:52:12 CDT." Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:12:01 -0400 Message-ID: <28164.837493921@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote in message ID : > Nope. I did spend some time driving around Scotland. Outside of > Glasgow and Edinburgh, there were hardly any signs, except in a > few tourist traps like Loch Ness. What sort of signs exactly? Tourist type signs? You were on the wrong roads dude :-) Being native to that country, I know that there are a lot of signs, of all types (apart from rude ones) all over the place. Although this has VERY little to do with freebsd :) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 00:59:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20682 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.muc.ditec.de (gw.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20663 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tartufo.muc.ditec.de (tartufo.muc.ditec.de [134.98.18.2]) by gw.muc.ditec.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25578; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:02:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tartufo.muc.ditec.de (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.39) id ; Tue, 16 Jul 96 10:00 MSZ Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 10:00 MSZ From: me@tartufo.muc.ditec.de (Michael Elbel) To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <199607151921.TAA22406@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Reply-To: me@gw.muc.ditec.de X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >Bottom knuckle of the pinkie finger? >You must be using the wrong type of keyboard. :-) >The One True Location Of The Control Key Shall Be Found To The >Immediate Left Of The A Key. >And If It Is Not There Already, Ye Shall Modmap Or Kbdcontrol It Such >That It Is. Amen. That was the only thing I had to do to this Marquardt ergo keyboard I'm using. It has this nice split keyboard, halves tilted apart, and, tadaa, cursorkeys in the middle. It's really neat to be able to use those with your thumbs (for those stupid applications that don't allow vi-style movement :) Michael -- Michael Elbel, DITEC, Muenchen, Germany - me@muc.ditec.de Fermentation fault (coors dumped) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:00:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03663 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03532 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 02:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA23519; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:51:40 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA16212; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:51:34 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA22977; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:54:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607160854.KAA22977@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:54:19 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <17449.837475267@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 15, 96 05:01:07 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > And have you ever driven in, say, Germany? :-) > Anyone who reads "Warner" comics will get a kick out of his frequent > confusion at being presented with conflicting instructions (then he > simply rides over the signpost, being a tough German motorcycle kinda > guy :-). Ah, c'mon. Now you're going to tell the whole world that we were all driving like Werner. ;-) But the best combination of signs ever seen is something like ``Dead end'' plus ``One-way street''. :] (Are we talking about FreeBSD? No? Ah, this is -chat!...) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:36:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08058 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08043 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U5-000QgDC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17281; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:27:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161027.MAA17281@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 15, 96 02:15:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Tim Vanderhoek writes: >> i suppose i should make it clear at the >> outset that there's no way to access f keys as easily as the base >> keys, no matter where you put them. but i maintain that it's easier >> to do so if they're on the left than if they're above. > > maybe your hands are in some way dysfunctional? :) what makes you assume it's my hands? hands up all those people with three 4" fingers on any hand. >>> the f keys, however are greatly placed! just curl the thumb to hit the >>> and extend a finger and you're gone! >> >> i tried this with alt-f1. the easiest way to do it is with the thumb >> on alt and the forefinger on the f1. in this position, the other >> fingers are over the top half of the left-hand pad, which suggests it >> should be easier to reach than the top. > > forefinger?!?! my god! no wonder the rest of your hand ends up over top > half of the left-hand pad! you should be using the finger right between > the pinky and the middle finger (ring finger). why? it's still uncomfortable. > if you follow the `xsw2' up a little bit, you'll find it ends up on > f1 on most keyboards (i expect). on my keyboard it lands between f2 and f3. >>> by tilting one's left hand to >>> the left, you can even hit at the same time! >> >> yup, i can even manage that, but it requires the forefinger on ctrl >> and the middle finger on f1. > > what on earth are you doing here!? you can't possibly be using the > finger beside your thumb (the forefinger) to hit the ctrl!? that's > ludicrous! you have to hit the with the bottom of the knuckle of > your pinkie finger. by pinkie you mean little finger, do you? ok, i tried that. with *great* difficulty i managed to avoid pushing down tab or shift, got my thumb on alt, and managed to get my middle finger on f2, but i couldn't get f1 at all. >>> i love it! >> >> it hurts. > > no. what hurts is twisting one's hand to hit the arrow keys, which are > stupidly placed far enough to the right that you can't hit them without > twisting your wrist in ways it's certainly not meant to be. who was talking about the arrow keys? on the whole, i don't have a problem with them. they're useful when you're browsing. when you're typing, there's no reason to use them. >>> otoh, i suppose if your fingers are less than 10cm each (that's 4 inches >>> for all the americans here :) it could be a little harder... ;) >> >> this must be the problem. i never thought i had short fingers, but my >> forefinger is 7.8 cm (3 1/16") long, my middle finger is 8.7 cm (3 >> 1/2"), and my ring finger is 8 cm (3 1/4"), if that's relevant to this >> discussion. > > well, my fingers are 10, 11, 10.5, and 7cm from index to pinkie > respectively. i suppose this could be part of your problem... ;) or of yours. i don't know anybody with fingers that long. > I just can't see myself hit the F keys on the left nearly as easily as > when they're up at the top. Have to twist my wrist quite nastily. Try moving it to the left. Then they're under your fingers. This whole discussion reminds me of a fortune I got yesterday: A man goes to a tailor to try on a new custom-made suit. The first thing he notices is that the arms are too long. "No problem," says the tailor. "Just bend them at the elbow and hold them out in front of you. See, now it's fine." "But the collar is up around my ears!" "It's nothing. Just hunch your back up a little ... no, a little more ... that's it." "But I'm stepping on my cuffs!" the man cries in desperation. "Nu, bend you knees a little to take up the slack. There you go. Look in the mirror -- the suit fits perfectly." So, twisted like a pretzel, the man lurches out onto the street. Reba and Florence see him go by. "Oh, look," says Reba, "that poor man!" "Yes," says Florence, "but what a beautiful suit." -- Arthur Naiman, "Every Goy's Guide to Yiddish" Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:36:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08114 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08103 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7Tz-000QbjC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:35 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17222; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:09:36 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161009.MAA17222@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:09:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607150106.BAA18214@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Jul 14, 96 07:06:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly writes: > > Tim> Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer > Tim> still had three buttons... > > Ahh, yes. > > Some people have suggested that having to move off home row to use the > mouse might help reduce repetitive stress injury (RSI). My impression is that mice are much more to blame for RSI than keyboards, especially with this damn silly double click stuff. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:37:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08166 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08151 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U0-000QbyC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17233; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:11:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161011.MAA17233@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:11:33 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 14, 96 11:38:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > >> Some people have suggested that having to move off home row to use the >> mouse might help reduce repetitive stress injury (RSI). > > My personal belief is that RSI is gotten only be persons who try to sit > so that they look like they are self-disciplined hard-workers. Well, you're entitled to your personal beliefs. But I think you're wrong. > I don't expect that to change unless I myself am inflicted with it. > ;) Could happen, especially if you think it can't. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:37:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08206 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08190 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U1-000Qg7C; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17262; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:17:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161017.MAA17262@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:17:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607151455.OAA20359@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Jul 15, 96 08:56:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly writes: > > Anyway, what I really ought to do is move to a Dvorak keyboard. A > friend of mine and I used to have a typing speed competition going. > We both peaked out about 100 wpm; he's later exceeded that by moving > to Dvorak. > > I noticed an X program out there called xdvorak ... I'm hoping it's a > Dvorak keyboard typing tutor (but more likely its just glitz riding > atop xmodmap). I've thought of that, but the big problem I have is that even now I find using "standard" keyboards difficult because of minor differences in the layout. With Dvorak, I would effectively make myself useless at anybody else's machine. Definitely not what a consultant wants to do. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:37:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08255 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08237 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U2-000Qg9C; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17252; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:16:09 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161016.MAA17252@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:16:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607151200.OAA16338@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 15, 96 02:00:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As Greg Lehey wrote: > >> What did you use them for? As I mentioned a while back, I use emacs a >> lot. A lot of the more complicated functions have key combinations >> like c-m-F1 (the example I was talking about). That's a lot easier to >> hit when F1 is on the left, though of course it's not as easy as c-m-S >> or some such. > > Well, you don't need these F-keys anymore now! :-) > > Simply map your previous binding for C-M-F1 to say C-A-a now, and use > the left Windows95 key for generating the `A' modifier. I don't need the left Windoof key, I can use Meta (or Alt). Sure, with the Windoof key I can use even more combinations, but it's difficult to hit C-A-S-M-a as well. In any case, you're assuming that C-A-a is unassigned. How do *you* find the beginning of an enclosing expression? > M-C-a runs the command beginning-of-defun: > M-C-f1 runs the command set-bi: Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:37:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08306 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08293 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U3-000QgAC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17298; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:30:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161030.MAA17298@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:30:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199607152127.RAA09115@garion.hq.ferg.com> from "Branson Matheson" at Jul 15, 96 05:27:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Branson Matheson writes: > > >> You must be using the wrong type of keyboard. :-) >> >> The One True Location Of The Control Key Shall Be Fou nd To The >> Immediate Left Of The A Key. >> >> And If It Is Not There Already, Ye Shall Modmap Or Kb dcontrol It >> Such That It Is. > > ARRRGHHHH... this comming from somone that uses unix on PC keyboards.... > > You foul miscreant, you purporter of heathen ideology, > read the sacred writings on the wall and repent! > >| ---- The Wall ---- >| >| The ctrl key belongs in the bottom left corner .. next to alt and >| under shift! >| >| Just like the Esc belongs in the top left and tilde under it and >| backspace on the right hand side of the '=/+' key! >| >| -- End of The Wall -- Is this a UNIX wall? Mine says "FreeBSD: Turning PC's into Workstations". It's been a long time since I've seen a UNIX user advocate this layout. Why? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 03:38:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08357 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08338 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug7U4-000QgCC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:36 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17210; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:07:00 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161007.MAA17210@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:07:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 14, 96 03:21:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I wrote: >>> It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to >> >> While I agree with this, I'm not sure it's relevant. > > The statement as I understood it was that because people are poor > with the keyboard, they find icon based more friendly. My > response is that other factors have a much greater bearing on > people's preference for icon based interfaces. I think my original statement related to the position of the keys, not the appearance of the caps. > On the topic of how to make keyboards more usable, yes it is > irrelevant. Different topics. :-> > >> hunt-and-pecker looks for the keycaps (that's why they're reverting to >> ideograms like this Microsoft key for people who can't read). > > I think that is a completely unwarranted conclusion. There are > *many* motivations to use icons that are completely unrelated to > the literacy of users. If someone can't read, having three keys > on the keyboard with pictures instead of letters or words isn't > going to make a bit of difference in their ability to use > Windows. Even if it were motivated by helping out illiterate > people, do you have a problem with that? I wasn't being completely serious here. Maybe I'm conditioned by the great dependence on only marginally recognizable symbols in Europe (originally motivated by the number of languages spoken here), and the subsequent decrease in literacy. And no, if the flags help illiterate people recognize the keyboard better, more power to them. But I do get thoroughly fed up with consumer appliances such as video recorders which have keys marked in such a bizarre manner that I keep needing to refer to the instruction manual to understand what they mean. >> I believe even Microslop uses things >> like Alt-F4, don't they? How does a touch typist do that on one of >> these "ergonomic" keyboards? > > Same way as always, either strain your hands, or use one hand for > alt and the other for F4. Incidentally, on the MS keyboard, > because of the "Windows" keys, the space bar is a little shorter > and the alt keys moved inward enough to make them easily usable > by the thumb. This is better because the thumb, while the > strongest, is the most under utilized in typing on regular > keyboards. The little finger gets a much deserved break on > alt-heavy programs, and with control mapped just left of the A, > control combinations are not too much of a strain on that weakest > finger. Just by chance I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard yesterday (no, not for me, for a customer). I tried it out and found it much worse than I expected. I couldn't type at all, and the Alt-ctrl-foo combinations were even worse than on a normally broken keyboard, due probably to this damn silly flag key. In addition, I had difficulty finding the normal keys, and I found the rotation of my arms difficult to handle. Normally I rest my forearms on the armrest of the chair, and that doesn't work if you have to twist them through 15°. >> BTW, what does this Microslop key do? > > Under XFree86, the "Windows" keys by default generate Meta_L and > Meta_R and the menu key generates the Menu keysym (which, to my > surprise, a fair number of programs respond to appropriately). > Of course, you can xmodmap them to anything you like. The guy I sold the computer to yesterday told me that under Windoze 95% they pop up a menu. Interesting, eh? I thought the mouse was intended for that. I wonder if this is the beginning of an indication that the mainstream has seen the error of its ways and is coming back to using the keyboard for data entry. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 04:19:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12008 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 04:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA11962 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 04:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ug898-000QgDC; Tue, 16 Jul 96 13:18 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA17395; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:47:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199607161047.MAA17395@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: icons (was: FreeBSD keyboard) To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:47:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 15, 96 12:35:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> This may the case when the number of choices is small. When you >> consider the number of key combinations which Emacs recognizes, menus >> become very inefficient. I introduced my wife to Emacs just a few >> weeks ago, showing her the menus at the top of the screen, but she >> prefers to use the key combinations because it's easier than >> navigating all the menus. > > A couple counterpoints: > > 1) It would be difficult to design menus worse than those that > come with emacs. Xemacs is marginally better, but not a lot. > What makes them difficult to navigate is that they are > function oriented. Look around at easy to use menus and the > common factor is not size, but a task oriented organization > (which, regretably comes with a different set of limitations). I'm not sure what you see as the difference between function orientation and task orientation. Both terms suggest the same thing to me. In any case, looking at the Emacs menus, I can't see that they're that bad, though I don't know many examples of good menus. > 2) Are the control-shift-alt-meta-hyper-x r control-meta-b > commands really that efficient? Sometimes. > Bringing it back to keyboards, what about hand strain? Back > when I was a regular emacs user, I actually unbound many of the > cursor movement commands from alphabetic keys, forcing myself to > use the keypad. It slowed me down a tiny bit, but my hands sure > felt better. I use these multiple bucky things for inserting various *roff sequences into texts. For example, S-f8 will put me in nroff-fill mode, and if I then hit S-f1, I'll get \fI\fP\|. I don't do that often, so hand strain doesn't become a problem. When writing in C, f5 will indent the next line correctly. In a case like that, I can move my hand sideways to the F key and maybe hold it down and let it repeat. If the F keys are at the top, I need to suspend my whole hand to avoid touching the main keyboard, and I can no longer rest my elbows on the armrest of the chair. > 3) Emacs has too many functions! ;-) > It represents CISC architecture in its peak. I've been a long > time emacs user, but have ditched for a "user friendly' RISC > editor (nedit) and must say that there are very few features of > emacs that I really miss (syntax highlighting, and psgml mode). You don't have to use them. But it's nice to have them if you need to. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 06:02:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA21154 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA21139 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA01283 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:00:13 +0100 Received: from tees by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:01:02 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id OAA00799; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:00:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:00:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199607161300.OAA00799@tees> To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Cc: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly), chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607161009.MAA17222@allegro.lemis.de> References: <199607150106.BAA18214@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> <199607161009.MAA17222@allegro.lemis.de> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > Sean Kelly writes: > > > > Tim> Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer > > Tim> still had three buttons... > > > > Ahh, yes. > > > > Some people have suggested that having to move off home row to use the > > mouse might help reduce repetitive stress injury (RSI). > > My impression is that mice are much more to blame for RSI than > keyboards, especially with this damn silly double click stuff. That's my experience too. The only RSI I suffer is in my right hand index finger from using the mouse button. I don't suffer at all from typing, at least not yet, but I have been very carefull over the years about using keyboards, I wish I'd been more concerned about mouse usage as well. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 10:12:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13381 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA13345 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14044; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24881; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: John Fieber cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > In the case of a road sign--a road sign is something you almost > > always see indirectly. You're always trying to drive at the same time, > > Have you ever driven in, say, Boston? :-) I think I'll try not to. :) > could be the difference between making and missing an exit. As I > mentioned in another message, where I live (Bloomington Indiana) > we have a few intersections with 6 or 8 signs and because they > are all uniform (rectangular, white background black two digit > numbers, a qualifier of north, south, east, or west, and an > arrow). So how would you rework the signing so that a driver would be able to comfortably recognize the desired sign and its meaning? Would it be possible to redo the whole road naming scheme so that each road is named by a picture? The exit for the highway denoted by the icon with something that looks like a cherry would have a great big sign with a cherry-like icon on it? :) > > I know, when reading a sheet of paper, or a computer screen, if my name > > is written on it somewhere, it almost always pops out immediately with > > little more than a glance at the paper or screen. > > This is speculation, but I would venture a guess that your own > name is a special case and it may be processed visually rather > than linguistically. Maybe, but then you would expect small changes in font and point size to ruin this ability. > > When looking for a > > specific word or word sequence in a large text file, if you scroll it up > > a screen and pay attention the whole time, I'll bet you find it first > > time even if the text is being scrolled 5-10 times to fast to be read > > normally. > > Gee, I wish *I* could do that. :-) Well, I'm pulling the 5-10 number out of a hat. I should take the time someday to check and see how fast text can actually be scrolled, and how large the keyphrase being searched for has to be. But anyways, I bet you could. Find an old 386 or 286 with DOS on it, use the `type' command, and give it a try! > And you wouldn't want it to. Making a good GUI typically > involves a completely different approach to the problem. Simply > making icons for commands isn't going to be useful. Look at the > Macintosh finder, which offers most of the functionality of rm, > cp, find, and ls. The whole mode of interaction is changed. I haven't used the Macintosh finder (confined to UNIX & Windows3|(95)). However, dragging, clicking, etc. can only replace so much. At some point, you have to fall-back to either a menu-based interface or a command-line interface, I believe. The two are essentially the same... I suppose an icon can be useful to help catagorize something. For example, given a list of files, searching for a given filename could be made faster if all text files were denoted with a small icon. But, once given this file, how is the GUI supposed to determine wether the user wants to diff it with another file, concatanate it to another file, view the file, edit the file, etc. Some of these are easy (for example, to delete it, it could be dragged to a nearby recycling bin), but some are so similar that it's hard to differentiate them without resorting to textual options. > Things are gained, you can spot files more quickly with icons > than text alone; moving files is much quicker. Things are also > lost, you can't easily rm `find -name '*.o'`. `A GUI makes it easy to do simple operations and impossible to do complex operations.' - paraphrase from I have no idea who. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 10:38:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16118 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16094 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14980; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29801; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:40:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607161011.MAA17233@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > My personal belief is that RSI is gotten only be persons who try to sit > > so that they look like they are self-disciplined hard-workers. > > Well, you're entitled to your personal beliefs. But I think you're > wrong. You have to understand that it's a macho-type thing. :) > > I don't expect that to change unless I myself am inflicted with it. > > ;) > > Could happen, especially if you think it can't. FWIW, my right ctrl is mapped to to avoid having to twist my wrist to hit every time. I've considered remapping to for the same reason. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 10:39:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16199 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16179 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA21359 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:37:18 -0700 Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14914; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29236; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:37:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607161027.MAA17281@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > maybe your hands are in some way dysfunctional? :) > > what makes you assume it's my hands? hands up all those people with > three 4" fingers on any hand. uh! uh! Pick me! Pick me! > > if you follow the `xsw2' up a little bit, you'll find it ends up on > > f1 on most keyboards (i expect). > > on my keyboard it lands between f2 and f3. I checked all four keyboards in this house, and on each one it definately lands just to the left of F1. > > what on earth are you doing here!? you can't possibly be using the > > finger beside your thumb (the forefinger) to hit the ctrl!? that's > > ludicrous! you have to hit the with the bottom of the knuckle of > > your pinkie finger. > > by pinkie you mean little finger, do you? ok, i tried that. with > *great* difficulty i managed to avoid pushing down tab or shift, got > my thumb on alt, and managed to get my middle finger on f2, but i > couldn't get f1 at all. The only one that I find is difficult to hit is F5, which is conveniently placed just where neither the right nor left hand can get to it. > >>> i love it! > >> > >> it hurts. > > > > no. what hurts is twisting one's hand to hit the arrow keys, which are > > stupidly placed far enough to the right that you can't hit them without > > twisting your wrist in ways it's certainly not meant to be. > > who was talking about the arrow keys? on the whole, i don't have a > problem with them. they're useful when you're browsing. when you're > typing, there's no reason to use them. I'm using them at the moment with this dumb Pico editor for Pine. It's not so terrible. Where they're really annoying is when I want bash to backup through the commandline history of bash (now that I think about it, there's probably another way to do that (making mental note to look into it, now)). > >> this must be the problem. i never thought i had short fingers, but my > >> forefinger is 7.8 cm (3 1/16") long, my middle finger is 8.7 cm (3 > >> 1/2"), and my ring finger is 8 cm (3 1/4"), if that's relevant to this > >> discussion. > > > > well, my fingers are 10, 11, 10.5, and 7cm from index to pinkie > > respectively. i suppose this could be part of your problem... ;) > > or of yours. i don't know anybody with fingers that long. Maybe you're measuring them wrongly. The following is the correct way to measure your finger... :) Palm down. Measure the side of your hand without a palm. There should be a light wrinkle. On the palm side of your hand, the crease goes around to the top of your hand forming the light wrinkle. The light wrinkly will end up ~2.5mm towards your wrist from the start of the crease. Measure from the light crinkle to the very tip of your finger. On the other fingers, the crease is not so easy to follow, but the light crinkle is still apparent. Because the tip of your finger is often not directly against the tape measure, one has to be doubly careful to avoid the error of paralax. That is the official and proper way to measure a finger. :) :) > > I just can't see myself hit the F keys on the left nearly as easily as > > when they're up at the top. Have to twist my wrist quite nastily. > > Try moving it to the left. Then they're under your fingers. Moving your whole arm from the elbow on is time consuming and tiresome. To be avoided wherever possible (esp. when moving mice). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 11:51:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22520 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22502 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA12227 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:54 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA21948 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA24357 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607161840.UAA24357@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607161016.MAA17252@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 16, 96 12:16:09 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > I don't need the left Windoof key, I can use Meta (or Alt). Sure, with the > Windoof key I can use even more combinations, but it's difficult to hit > C-A-S-M-a as well. e-M-A-C-S :) > In any case, you're assuming that C-A-a is unassigned. How > do *you* find the beginning of an enclosing expression? > > > M-C-a runs the command beginning-of-defun: > > M-C-f1 runs the command set-bi: I was rather pointing out that you've now got one extra modifier key that wasn't there before. This gives you another level of mapping. (The Alt key generates an Alt_L event, the Windoof key a Meta_L event.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 12:19:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27145 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-20.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27134 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA16307 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:19:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199607161919.PAA16307@garion.hq.ferg.com> X-Authentication-Warning: garion.hq.ferg.com: Host localhost.hq.ferg.com didn't use HELO protocol From: Branson Matheson To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:20 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:19:49 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -------- > an exit. As I > > So how would you rework the signing so that a driver would be able > to comfortably recognize the desired sign and its meanin g? Would > it be possible to redo the whole road naming scheme so that each > road is named by a picture? The exit for the highway denoted by th > e icon with something that looks like a cherry would have a great > big sign with a cherry-like icon on it? :) Ahhh.. but there are things like this... for instance, here in Virginia, the Interstate signs are all shields with Red and blue background with white letters, Routes are black and white sheilds with black letters... it ain't so bad here... Steep grade looks like a truck going down a hill, Deer ahead looks like a jumping buck, Pedestrian Target zone looks like a mommy with her purse and a female child ( sexisim? mabey.. ) What I hate is playing "find the street sign" sometimes it is on the cross wire/bar, sometimes it is on the corner, sometimes the opposite corner... etc... -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 12:25:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28119 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-139.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.139]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28024; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03841; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:37:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607152037.WAA03841@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: hardware@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:15:40 EDT." Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:37:12 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To the USA/Canadian Cable comms enthusiasts currently blathering away on Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com A 2nd reminder: hardware@freebsd.org Is NOT for the discussion of Americas' regional cable networking technology ! It IS for the world wide discussion of FreeBSD hardware. If you don't believe do this: echo "info freebsd-hardware" | mail majordomo@freebsd.org This thread long ceased being appropriate to FreeBSD, so _Please_ Either move it to chat@freebsd.org or to a newsgroup. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 12:46:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03481 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.netvoyage.net (news.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03457 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foo.netvoyage.net (foo@localhost) by news.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA29637; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:42:31 -0700 Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by foo.netvoyage.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12388; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:44:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: foo.netvoyage.net: bkogawa owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:44:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" To: Greg Lehey cc: Branson Matheson , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607161030.MAA17298@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Branson Matheson writes: [...] > >| ---- The Wall ---- > >| > >| The ctrl key belongs in the bottom left corner .. next to alt and > >| under shift! > >| > >| Just like the Esc belongs in the top left and tilde under it and > >| backspace on the right hand side of the '=/+' key! > >| > >| -- End of The Wall -- > > > Is this a UNIX wall? Mine says "FreeBSD: Turning PC's into > Workstations". > > It's been a long time since I've seen a UNIX user advocate this > layout. Why? Personally, I like the Control key under the left-shift key. I've been exposed to the "to the right of A" layout for many years, so I'm not rabid about it. The trick is to use the side of the palm to hold down control, instead of any finger. This way, you can keep your hands on home row while holding down control. Of course, this may be bad for your hand posture. Alt is held down by the left thumb (which really isn't doing anything anyway). My personal peeve is the location of the | key. Considering how often it's used in Unix, (and, even how often its counterpart, \, is used in DOS), it has a really horrible position on too many keyboards. I like the position directly above enter. The worst postions seem to come from Focus keyboards, which is a shame since they have a very nice feel (e.g. to the RIGHT of the right shift key (!)). On the subject of feel--does anyone know of some good keyboards (very high quality membrane or click)? I'm using a Fujitsu 4725, which is a Win95 keyboard (click, but in typing with it for a few weeks, a little too stiff in the keys). Pretty nice, and it has the | in the right place. The worse part (other than my constant minor annoyance at the feel) is that the caps lock, etc. lights are embedded in the keys. bryan > > Greg > > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 13:21:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11037 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-20.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11014 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA16919; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:19:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199607162019.QAA16919@garion.hq.ferg.com> X-Authentication-Warning: garion.hq.ferg.com: Host localhost.hq.ferg.com didn't use HELO protocol From: Branson Matheson To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:44:35 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:19:54 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -------- "Bryan K. Ogawa" uttered with conviction: >On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> >| Just like the Esc belongs in the top left and tilde under it and >> >| backspace on the right hand side of the '=/+' key! >> >> Is this a UNIX wall? Mine says "FreeBSD: Turning PC's into >> Workstations". >> >> It's been a long time since I've seen a UNIX user advocate this >> layout. Why? Well.. I used unix on Suns first and also used PC's and got sick of trying to remember where the ctrl was. ( Its really annoying to be typing along at high speed, not looking at the screen or keyboard, and hit the caps lock and have to re-type a couple of lines ). So I got sun Type 4's with the ctrl in the bottom left so that I would not have to remember any more... then I started using NCD xterms .. and they have lots of different keyboards.. So .. I wrote that little xmodmap thingy ( and another one called 'hosed_esc' for the stupid keyboards with the esc key inplace of the ~ key. ) I also agree on finding the '\' key above the enter.. I do alot of perl programming and I tend to use that key alot.. it's really annoying to find it between the ctrl and alt! -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 15:50:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA04566 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA04560 for chat; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:50:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199607162250.PAA04560@freefall.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: 3-button mice on laptops (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Ahh.... The days when the mouse sold with your computer still had three >> buttons... > > You mean you let them palm you off with less? Your own fault. What about laptops? I've been trying to find one with a 3-button mouse, but they're uniformly 2-button, except for RDI's sparc laptop. Are there any pc notebooks which have an option for 3-button built-in mice? From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 16:20:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10220 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10142; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29773; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:19:56 GMT Message-Id: <199607162319.XAA29773@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA123819227; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:20:27 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:20:27 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607162250.PAA04560@freefall.freebsd.org> (message from Jeffrey Hsu on Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:50:10 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: 3-button mice on laptops (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jeffrey" == Jeffrey Hsu writes: Jeffrey> What about laptops? I've been trying to find one with a Jeffrey> 3-button mouse, but they're uniformly 2-button, except Jeffrey> for RDI's sparc laptop. Are there any pc notebooks which Jeffrey> have an option for 3-button built-in mice? If you happen to find one, would you mind letting me (or the chat list) know? I'd like to have a laptop, but no 3-button mice is definitely something holding me back. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 18:34:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00590 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp.DK.net (uucp@uucp.DK.net [193.88.44.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA00583; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pingnet (uucp@localhost) by uucp.DK.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id DAA03574; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:34:37 +0200 Received: from kyklopen by ic1.ic.dk with UUCP id AA20591 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4j); Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:30:41 +0200 Received: (from staff@localhost) by kyklopen.ping.dk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03436; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: Thomas Sparrevohn To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: chat@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-Reply-To: <199607152200.AAA18156@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Charset: ISO_8859-1 X-Char-Esc: 29 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > You should not listen to the shouting people. However, have a look at > the guy called `Pedro'. No, you don't find him in the hot parts of > the discussion... but his argumentations makes sense, and he seems to > have a couple of valid points. > I must admit it is the worst thread I have seen. I could be nice if some specially Larry Macoy and Linus himself would review their CS notes and try to remember how one is expected to discuss this kind differences. I would be really nice to see some serious articles on the issues presented. Regards Thomas From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 19:28:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05145 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05138 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id WAA29119; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:24:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199607170224.WAA29119@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: 3-button mice on laptops (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607162319.XAA29773@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Jul 16, 96 05:20:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >>>>> "Jeffrey" == Jeffrey Hsu writes: > > Jeffrey> What about laptops? I've been trying to find one with a > Jeffrey> 3-button mouse, but they're uniformly 2-button, except > Jeffrey> for RDI's sparc laptop. Are there any pc notebooks which > Jeffrey> have an option for 3-button built-in mice? > > If you happen to find one, would you mind letting me (or the chat > list) know? I'd like to have a laptop, but no 3-button mice is > definitely something holding me back. > > -- > Sean Kelly > NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov > Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ > The best thing I've found is the three-button PS/2 mouse used on IBM AIX workstations and HP Xterminals. Plugged into the PS/2 mouse port on my Thinkpad -- instant three-button mouse. I think Logitech makes them for HP and IBM... The Thinkpad's TrackPoint is (unfortunately) only two button -- but they're large and locking on my 365. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win95 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 20:04:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08432 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08407 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (scanner@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA27846 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:04:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Scanner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSDcon Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk *** B S D - C O N *** Who/What: BSDNET(1) is proud to announce the first annual BSDcon convention. Held this year in Virginia. BSDcon is going to be a yearly convention to promote, discuss, and trade ideas and code about FREE *BSD unix. Everyone has there own conference, SA's, Geeks, even the L**** people have them. Now the founding OS of unix, needs to take advances in PR, and promoting *BSD unix. So we wind up with BSDcon. When: October 26th and 27th. The weekend before halloween. 1996. Where: Hotel soon to be announced. Why: To promote the use of FREE *BSD unix, and to actually start spreading FACTUAL information about *BSD unix, and about performance and architecture issues that the other free unix camps can't seem to stick to. Topics to be discussed are coming soon. This is just a pre-amble to the official release of BSDcon information. This is just to get people to clear their calandar for the above date :) Those of you wishing more information before I get around to releasing the OFFICIAL announcment later on, wanting to know about speakers, topics, etc.. can email me at bsdcon@webspan.net for further pre release information. I hope everyone plans on attending! It is going to be very informative, and everyone is going to have a blast! Official release is soon to come. Scanner@webspan.net 1 - http://www.bsdnet.org -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 16 20:17:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09576 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp.DK.net (uucp@uucp.DK.net [193.88.44.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA09566; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pingnet (uucp@localhost) by uucp.DK.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id FAA05563; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:17:01 +0200 Received: from kyklopen by ic1.ic.dk with UUCP id AA24305 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4j); Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:10:28 +0200 Received: (from staff@localhost) by kyklopen.ping.dk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA02102; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:09:56 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:09:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Thomas Sparrevohn To: Joerg Wunsch , chat@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I ask you to respond to Linus In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Charset: ISO_8859-1 X-Char-Esc: 29 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Thomas Sparrevohn wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > > I must admit it is the worst thread I have seen. I could be nice > if some specially Larry Macoy and Linus himself would review their > CS notes and try to remember how one is expected to discuss this > kind differences. I would be really nice to see some serious > articles on the issues presented. That should have been Larry McVoy :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 00:37:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA06317 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06312 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15951; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:37:36 +1000 Received: from orion.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id RAA09393; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:38:48 +1000 Received: by orion.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-0.3) id RAA04599; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:35:17 +1000 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:35:17 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199607170735.RAA04599@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: John Fieber cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Switching to Dvorak (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote: >On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Branson Matheson wrote: > >> ok... so where does one get a dvorak keyboard? [Pointers to Dvorak maps for everything, elided] >I think that covers most environments in common use. Now that I know someone who has switched, I can ask that all important question: "Was it really worth it?". Yes, *really* worth it. How long did the switch take you? I can think of lots of reasons against changing: 1) My fingers are already programmed for qwerty. 2) I don't have control over every keyboard I use, so I still need qwerty. 3) Won't my brain turn liquid and drip out my ears if I switch back and forth a lot between the two? 4) I've got no dvorak tutor program. 5) My keytops won't match what they do (unless I get keen with a screwdriver?). I can think of three positives: 1) I'll probably type faster. 2) I'll probably stress my fingers less. 3) Nobody else will be able to use my machines. :-) Opinions from any converts appreciated. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 09:11:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00968 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00957; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA05923; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607171610.JAA05923@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu cc: Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 16 Jul 96 23:45:19 -0700. Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:10:54 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not >made by Microsoft. > Because NT is a very solid server OS. It is tightly integrated with the most popular application server software, Microsoft BackOffice. It is *the* most stable OS I have run. It scales well across multiple CPUs, and has a very solid multi-processor and multi-threaded kernel. NT 4.0 will have not only dynamically scheduled threads, but user- scheduled threads called fibers (that are like Sun LWPs). It runs on Intel, MIPS, DEC Alpha and PowerPC architectures. It is a lot easier to administer than a Unix box. It is more secure than OS/2 (certified C2). It runs on more hardware than OS/2 (it runs on the PowerPC chip -- an IBM processor -- that OS/2 won't even run on). It scales higher than OS/2. It has a more flexible, more stable, more secure filesystem than OS/2 (NTFS vs. HPFS). NT will run Windows 95 software. It has OpenGL 3D rendering libraries built in. It comes bundled with a very capable web browser. It comes bundled with a decent web server. It comes bundled with complete networking, including multi-protocol routing. NT 4.0 will come with Point-To-Point tunneling protocol. NT 4.0 will come with a very cool and solid CERN-compatible caching firewall and proxy server. I could go on, but this could get monotonous.... NT is not Windows 95. You asked. Sure, *I* love Unix the best, and I'll be running a version of BSD until they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. But it's pretty unrealistic to expect someone who's main job is to run a business, to learn all the quirkiness of Unix. NT and OS/2 are just better solutions than Unix for many of these people. And NT is a better server product in so many ways than OS/2. Plus, NT is a better business "workstation" OS than Unix because of all the business applications it runs. I don't understand why people want to shoot themselves in the foot, just because they have some religious problem with Microsoft. If Microsoft makes the best keyboard, and you choose something worse with a mushy feel or a wrist-crippling legacy design, just because you can't look at the logo, your loss. If Microsoft makes the best software product for a certain use, and you insist on using something inferior just because you just because it says Microsoft on the box, your loss. What's more, I don't see why people think IBM is so much better than Microsoft. If you're against big, market-dominating companies, you might be surprised to learn that IBM is more than five times the size of Microsoft, by the number of employees. Just because their marketing sucks doesn't mean they have any less of a desire to foist their own agenda on the industry. Just look who gave us the crappy PC architecture to begin with. Sure, DOS sucks. Sure, Win16 was a model of mediocrity. Sure, Microsoft doesn't make everything the best. Sure there are many other alternatives to several of their products out there. But, specifically, OS/2 vs. NT, OS/2 has already lost the war. And that keyboard debate: buy what you want; I want the keyboard that is going to give me the most comfortable touch-typing feel, and by coincidence, it also happens to have a Microsoft logo on it. This is clearly outside the focus for freebsd-current. Please direct followups to freebsd-chat, and/or private mail. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 09:42:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02584 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02578 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA22548; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199607171642.LAA22548@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:42:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, dsiliceo@adam.es In-Reply-To: <199607171610.JAA05923@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 17, 96 09:10:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. > >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not > >made by Microsoft. > > > > Sure, *I* love Unix the best, and I'll be running a version of BSD > until they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. But it's pretty > unrealistic to expect someone who's main job is to run a business, to > learn all the quirkiness of Unix. NT and OS/2 are just better > solutions than Unix for many of these people. And NT is a better > server product in so many ways than OS/2. Plus, NT is a better > business "workstation" OS than Unix because of all the business > applications it runs. > > I don't understand why people want to shoot themselves in the foot, > just because they have some religious problem with Microsoft. > This is one of the most lucid and rational comments that I have heard in a long time regarding the religious issues associated with Microsoft. Whether or not you "like" them, they are the best solution for alot of applications. Whether or not it makes any difference :-), I agree with you entirely. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 09:43:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02695 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02690 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11641; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:43:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:43:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Switching to Dvorak (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) In-Reply-To: <199607170735.RAA04599@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Stephen McKay wrote: > Now that I know someone who has switched, I can ask that all important > question: "Was it really worth it?". Yes, *really* worth it. How long did > the switch take you? My case is pretty atypical. I never properly learned qwerty. When I first had a computer, and discovered that being able to type was helpful, I got some typing books and worked away for some months, all the time thinking there must be a better way. At some point I remembered hearing something about a faster keyboard layout and after some hunting, I found a picture of a dvorak keyboard. I figured out how to remap the keyboard and set to work on the new layout. I'd say that it was less than a week before I surpased my qwerty speed and have never gone back. > I can think of lots of reasons against changing: > 3) Won't my brain turn liquid and drip out my ears if I switch back and > forth a lot between the two? I have not found this to be a problem. In a past job, I I had to use a typewriter (qwerty) and a computer (dvorak) extensively. I didn't find switching back and forth to be a problem at all, other than the speed difference. Fingers "misfiring" was pretty rare. > 4) I've got no dvorak tutor program. The popular Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing has a dvorak tutor. However, I think real-world typing works just fine. Just tape ' , . p y f g r / = \ a o e u i d h t n s - ; q j k x b w m w v z on the bottom edge of your monitor and go at it! > 5) My keytops won't match what they do (unless I get keen with a screwdriver?). Utterly irrelevant for touch typists. You can remove the keycaps, but on most keyboards, the angle of the top of the key depends on the row it is in so you end up with something pretty hideous if you move keys between rows. If its any conselation, numbers, A and M are in the same place. ;-) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 10:53:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06707 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06702 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:52:58 -0700 (PDT) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA29223; Wed, 17 Jul 96 10:52:56 PDT Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.0) id KAA05601; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:53:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199607171753.KAA05601@kongur> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:53:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199607171610.JAA05923@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 17, 96 09:10:54 am X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. > >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not > >made by Microsoft. > > > Intel, MIPS, DEC Alpha and PowerPC architectures. It is a lot easier > to administer than a Unix box. It is more secure than OS/2 (certified Bull%*&t! [I used to administer an NT and Unix network] Individual workstations are, but it doesn't scale well for administration. For one, you cannot administer as much of NT remotely as you can Unix. An administer cannot assume anyone's identity. So every time a user has a configuration problem you have to make an appointment with the user to come to their office, sit down with them, watch them login and then have them step aside so you can investigate the problem -- a big waste of time! With Unix, I get an email that someone has an environment problem. I simply cd to their home dir and look at their dot files. Or ``su'' to them if nessicary. Shoot, even for users to change the resolution on their screen, they had to come to me -- a normal user can't do this. Also, you can ``su'' to root. So I was either logging out tons of times a day to then login as administrator, or I have myself administrator privs. Thus I was logged in as "root" all the time. Not a Good Thing. Also, by default administrators doesn't have priv. in people's home dirs, or have write priv. for applications installed by others. Need to do a little ``du'' action to find the disk hogs? Can't. Simply do a "chmod -R administrator+rwx /" you think. Nope, not unless you know about the secret ``cacls'' command line program (which took me 4 months to find). The "official" way to change file/dir permissions is filemanager. Filemanager only has the = or octal syntax of chmod. Thus no modify the current perms, only straight assignment. Thus you have to go into hundreds of dirs to give the administrator even read privs. This comes to my next point. The admin tools that come with NT stink! The event view has the WORST user interface I've seen. Worse than the typical HTML home page where you have to follow tons of links to get to any content and to the next non-content free page. NT's event viewer uses only 20% of the available screen to show you /var/log/messages entries (one at a time). Takes for ever to read the event log. -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 11:37:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09191 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-13.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.113]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09185 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25550; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:35:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199607171835.OAA25550@garion.hq.ferg.com> X-Authentication-Warning: garion.hq.ferg.com: Host localhost.hq.ferg.com didn't use HELO protocol From: Branson Matheson To: John Fieber cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Switching to Dvorak (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:43:23 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:35:42 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -------- John Fieber uttered with conviction: > On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Stephen McKay wrote: > > Now that I know someone who has switched, I can ask that all > important question: "Was it really worth it?". Yes, *really* worth > it. How long did the switch take you? > > My case is pretty atypical. > > I never properly learned qwerty. When I first had a computer, and > discovered that being able to type was helpful, I got some typing > books and worked away for some months, all the time thinking there > must be a better way. At some point I remembered hearing something > about a faster keyboard layout and after some hunting, I found a > picture of a dvorak keyboard. I f igured out how to remap the > keyboard and set to work on the new layout. I'd say that it was > less than a week before I surpased my qwerty speed and have never > gone back. I am right now typing this on a dvorak kbd and already not having to look at the keys... Lots of misfires ... but I can already see some improvement... - branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 11:42:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09370 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09365 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA07509; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <199607171753.KAA05601@kongur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: > > Intel, MIPS, DEC Alpha and PowerPC architectures. It is a lot easier > > to administer than a Unix box. It is more secure than OS/2 (certified > > Bull%*&t! [I used to administer an NT and Unix network] Individual Much stuff delted. > entries (one at a time). Takes for ever to read the event log. Installed nt4.0 beta on a machine last night just to have a look. It's Windows NT 97. But the machine, sitting idle, doing nothing was consuming 15.5 megs of RAM. There were no applications running, no icon menus up. The only thing up was th one utility to let me look at rescources. 15.5 meg, idle. X is a bloated pig, but doesn't use that kind of RAM. My biggest problem with NT (and OS/2 suffers from this as well) is the huge amount of overhead necessary to run it. It's pretty though. It might take 2 hours to do one thing on any machine with less than 64 megs of RAM, but boy does it look nice. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 11:50:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09755 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09749 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:50:40 -0700 (PDT) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA00481; Wed, 17 Jul 96 11:50:38 PDT Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.0) id LAA05848; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:51:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199607171851.LAA05848@kongur> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD misc chating list) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:51:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at Jul 17, 96 02:43:54 pm X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Installed nt4.0 beta on a machine last night just to have a look. It's > Windows NT 97. But the machine, sitting idle, doing nothing was > consuming 15.5 megs of RAM. There were no applications running, no icon > menus up. The only thing up was th one utility to let me look at I wonder if they pre-allocate a large cache buffer, and then reduce the cache when the demain for core increases (like some Unix's do). If so, then it's no big deal that it was consuming 15.5 megs of core sitting idle. -- David From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:02:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10315 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10292; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA01075; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:10:54 PDT." <199607171610.JAA05923@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:32 -0700 Message-ID: <1073.837630152@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > learn all the quirkiness of Unix. NT and OS/2 are just better > solutions than Unix for many of these people. And NT is a better > server product in so many ways than OS/2. Plus, NT is a better > business "workstation" OS than Unix because of all the business > applications it runs. While I don't disagree with any of your major points, and agree that NT is *definitely* something we should be afraid (very afraid) of, I think you missed one important point about it which Microsoft will be the last to mention in their sales hype: Cost. Task: Create a small ISP using 3 or 4 PCs which will provide web service, POP email accounts, News, DNS, dial-in SLIP/PPP and general routing. Say we're also projecting between 500-1000 users as our target customer base within a 6 month timeframe (and, assuming we live in an area where coverage is still somewhat spotty, that's not an unrealistic expectation at all) so we need to make sure we can grow into that without too much pain since we'll already be going insane trying to get the billing set up, the tech support hotline staffed, etc. The last thing we need is for our tech to run out of steam halfway down the line. Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived by paramedics. Send $39.95 from your hospital bed to Walnut Creek CDROM for *one* copy of FreeBSD and swear off Microsoft forever. :-) Seriously, NT looks attractive from a single-user standpoint, I'll give it full marks for that, but once you try and put together even half of the packages you get for free under UNIX to create a small ISP or business server application, you're talking some serious bucks and, from everything I've heard, you won't even get close to the performance of a well-tuned *BSD box doing the same thing once you're done. Eventually I suppose that Microsoft will catch on to this and/or the free software community will provide some of the missing pieces, but that doesn't help today's customers very much. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:28:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11644 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11625; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00328; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607171928.MAA00328@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:32 PDT." <1073.837630152@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop > package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and > SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share > filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful > eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load > off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived Do you know how much the above setup would cost? Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:34:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12201 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12195 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA22819; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:33:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199607171933.OAA22819@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:33:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607171851.LAA05848@kongur> from "obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu" at Jul 17, 96 11:51:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Installed nt4.0 beta on a machine last night just to have a look. It's > > Windows NT 97. But the machine, sitting idle, doing nothing was > > consuming 15.5 megs of RAM. There were no applications running, no icon > > menus up. The only thing up was th one utility to let me look at > > I wonder if they pre-allocate a large cache buffer, and then reduce the > cache when the demain for core increases (like some Unix's do). If so, > then it's no big deal that it was consuming 15.5 megs of core sitting > idle. > Or they could be keeping program images, disk cache and everything that is accessed around. Some people have gotten upset about the small amount of "free" memory on FreeBSD, until they realize that it is more efficient to cache as much as you can :-). Some of our "cache" memory becomes "active", but is quickly made available for other uses as needed. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:42:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12508 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wireless.Stanford.EDU (wireless.Stanford.EDU [36.10.0.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12503; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (akyol@localhost) by wireless.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA28449; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607171942.MAA28449@wireless.Stanford.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:02:32 MST." <1073.837630152@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:46 -0700 From: Bora Akyol Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While I don't disagree with any of your major points, and agree that > NT is *definitely* something we should be afraid (very afraid) of, I > think you missed one important point about it which Microsoft will be > the last to mention in their sales hype: Cost. > > Task: Create a small ISP using 3 or 4 PCs which will provide web > service, POP email accounts, News, DNS, dial-in SLIP/PPP and general > routing. Say we're also projecting between 500-1000 users as our > target customer base within a 6 month timeframe (and, assuming we live > in an area where coverage is still somewhat spotty, that's not an > unrealistic expectation at all) so we need to make sure we can grow > into that without too much pain since we'll already be going insane > trying to get the billing set up, the tech support hotline staffed, > etc. The last thing we need is for our tech to run out of steam > halfway down the line. > > Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop > package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and > SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share > filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful > eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load > off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived > by paramedics. Send $39.95 from your hospital bed to Walnut Creek > CDROM for *one* copy of FreeBSD and swear off Microsoft forever. :-) > > Seriously, NT looks attractive from a single-user standpoint, I'll > give it full marks for that, but once you try and put together even > half of the packages you get for free under UNIX to create a small ISP > or business server application, you're talking some serious bucks and, > from everything I've heard, you won't even get close to the > performance of a well-tuned *BSD box doing the same thing once you're > done. > > Eventually I suppose that Microsoft will catch on to this and/or the > free software community will provide some of the missing pieces, but > that doesn't help today's customers very much. > > Jordan > I agree with this, even as a single, technical user NT was not viable for me. I needed NFS, mail service, X windows, Tex/Latex/Xdvi. Here is the prices: 1_ NT student version 99.00 2. XServer+NFS = $400.00 3. Mail Server= DOn't know 4. Latex/Tex/Xdvi = Free Cost = 499.00 plus 100.00 for tolerating the .INI files, using \ instead of / probably. FreeBSD cost me nothing and came with all the stuff that I needed. Of course if you are a novice user, the learning curve for UNIX is much steeper than NT since we don't have graphical user interface. But hacking a tk interface should not be that hard. RedHat software has a good GUI for system management that pretty much does everything so it is possible. Bora From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:42:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12532 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12521; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607171942.MAA12521@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:03 PDT." <199607171928.MAA00328@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:53 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : >> >> Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop >> package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and >> SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share >> filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful >> eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load >> off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived > >Do you know how much the above setup would cost? > >Tnks, > Amancio It's actually not the important figure to look at. Initial hardware and software costs are a miniscule portion of the cost of deploying any system on this scale. If you can show that solution X takes less time to install, is easier to configure, is easier to upgrade, and requires minimal staff training time to use, (along with being robust and fast, etc) you'll get people to listen. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:46:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12893 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12862; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA01365; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:45:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:03 PDT." <199607171928.MAA00328@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: <1363.837632747@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop > > package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and > > SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share > > filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful > > eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load > > off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived > > Do you know how much the above setup would cost? With or without the SGI Challenge? :-) I've been told that the POP server is actually the most expensive component and, while I've never priced all of this stuff down to the last dime myself, I've been told that starting with $20,000 and diving into the NT ISP market will leave you enough to go for a McDonald's hamburger afterwards. If someone wanted to do an actual study on this, using the current crop of NT products (which has almost certainly been added to since I got this figure), it's be quite an interesting exercise. Any takers who are more familiar with the current state of the NT market than I? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 12:57:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13807 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA13802 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA01433; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:42:53 PDT." <199607171942.MAA12521@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:56:53 -0700 Message-ID: <1431.837633413@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Finally moved over exclusively to -chat] > It's actually not the important figure to look at. Initial hardware and > software costs are a miniscule portion of the cost of deploying any system > on this scale. If you can show that solution X takes less time to install, > is easier to configure, is easier to upgrade, and requires minimal staff > training time to use, (along with being robust and fast, etc) you'll get > people to listen. I think this is true up to a certain point, yes, but bear in mind that I'm talking about a small ISP here who's just starting out. It doesn't matter what the "big picture" is if the short-term cash outlay of $20-$30K means you're writing IOUs to your staff for the first 2 months of operation because you can't afford to pay their salary. I know *many* ISPs who did or are starting out that way, and a chunk of change like that is very significant indeed when you're trying to bootstrap the operation out of your own pocket (as, again, many do in order to avoid the evil of Vulture Capitalists getting involved). This represents a window of opportunity for us since once someone's committed to something, be it for economic or for personal preference reasons, they're probably not inclined to switch away from a solution which works and they've already got the staff trained on. This is the same rationale which has folks like DEC and HP donating massive amounts of hardware and software to colleges - get 'em hooked while they're young. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:18:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16041 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16022 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07716; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:17:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <1073.837630152@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Seriously, NT looks attractive from a single-user standpoint, I'll > give it full marks for that, but once you try and put together even Depends on who's paying! I decided to replace the DOS/Win3.1 partition on my office computer and considered Windows95, OS/2, and NT as options; they'll all run my dos wordprocessor and Excel 5.0, but I also wanted whatever I chose to run a web server with files duplicating the ones that are on FreeBSD. NT: workstation version won't run a web server, must get server version. $400+ for workstation, $600+ for server, with academic discount. OS/2: I already own OS/2 Warp but to run web server must have OS/2 Warp Connect; Connect package doesn't come as add-on, so this is $129 or so (again with discount). Win95: I already own this also, but "Plus!" package needed to run web server. $49.95. The winner. Anyway, the Plus! pack has six sheets of great wallpaper, and I love wallpaper. Found a free web server that runs on Win95 somewhere on the web and installed it with minimal pain. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:24:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16615 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16593 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id QAA09235; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: John Dyson cc: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <199607171933.OAA22819@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, John Dyson wrote: > Or they could be keeping program images, disk cache and everything > that is accessed around. Some people have gotten upset about the small amount > of "free" memory on FreeBSD, until they realize that it is more > efficient to cache as much as you can :-). Some of our "cache" memory > becomes "active", but is quickly made available for other uses as needed. Then why only take 1/3 of your free available RAM to do it? I am looking at my memory usage under freebsd right now, and all but 600k is claimed by the cache, and active programs. I don't give M$ that much credit. They make some nice stuff, but it's expensive and usually suffers from at least one major design flaw. And everyone I know who uses NT says it's a bloated pig. :) Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:25:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16738 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.i1.net (root@mail1.i1.net [205.216.202.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA16728 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.i1.net (tbrown@mail1.i1.net [205.216.202.4]) by mail1.i1.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA02862; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:24:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:24:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Timothy Brown To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <1363.837632747@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > an interesting exercise. Any takers who are more familiar with the > current state of the NT market than I? Sure, Jordan, I can do that. We came into the market as an IPP. I tried for ages to convince my boss to run UNIX, but he wasn't going for it. He has carpal tunnel and was already very familiar with Windows, so it was easier to use for him in his physical condition than was UNIX (but not by much). I can't do exact costs for you as i'm not the one who writes the checks, but you can figure what we did as somewhere near baseline. We spent $12K+ on a server w/ 128MB of RAM, 8GB of hard disk, CDROM, etc. It's a PPro200mhz. We spent $1700 (are spending, it's $1700/yr) for the Microsoft Developer's Network, which gives us NT, SQL Server, and basically the whole Microsoft backoffice Suite of products. We're going to end up spending $699 for our SMTP solution I think, $299 for our Web statistics reporting program (which I have to admit is excellent), $299 or so for our DNS, and $1000 for various assorted software solutions. Things are generally much more expensive within the NT market than without. I would have loved to save my boss all this money and go with FreeBSD or something similar, but he was bent on the idea of doing all this stuff. Now that we've done it, I can't say I don't /like/ it. It took a lot of getting used to, but I can see the benefits paying off, and the costs, in the longrun, are a little less than I would have anticipated. We're doing some custom database and WWW production solutions under NT for some fairly big clients. It's a lot easier to do it than I would have expected; I jumped into this thing with no knowledge of NT and (at least for me) the learning curve wasn't very steep. The databasing stuff i'm learning and the other fun things about NT are a lot less hairy than they would have been under UNIX. Still, there are some things that UNIX does better. For example, DNS, SMTP, etc. It does them cheaper; they may be easier to manage under NT but their performance sucks if you're not on a big fat server like I am (we tried it under a 48MB server and it was horrendous). Just my thoughts. Tim -- Tim Brown Founder & Chair, ISP/C [http://www.ispc.org/] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:30:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17187 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17175 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00304; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:30:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:30:26 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Veggy Vinny cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > How do I get these keys to work in color xterms and netscape and > stuff like that? In you "keyboard" section of your XF86Config file: XkbSymbols "us(microsoft)" XkbGeometry "microsoft" As far as making them work with specific applications, what do you want them to do? A couple apps (XEmacs come to mind) respond automagically to the Menu key. Generally, you need to need to tell other apps what you want done with them. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:31:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17337 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17332 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA01634; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:31:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Timothy Brown cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:24:32 CDT." Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:31:15 -0700 Message-ID: <1632.837635475@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We're going to end up spending $699 for our SMTP solution I think, $299 for > our Web statistics reporting program (which I have to admit is excellent), > $299 or so for our DNS, and $1000 for various assorted software solutions. > Things are generally much more expensive within the NT market than without. Interesting - do you have any numbers for POP/IMAP capable mail servers as well? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:50:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19029 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19020 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00350; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:49:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:49:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607151913.TAA22363@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > John> Around here there are a couple places that have uniform rows > John> of 6-8 rectangular white signs with black two digit highway > John> numbers and arrows. > > Where the heck is this? I see `indiana' in your email/web address ... South central Indiana to be specific. > I recommend _Envisioning Information_ by Tufte (Graphics Press 1990, > ISBN 0-9613921-1-8). Yup, thats the one I've read. There was another that I flipped through in a bookstore. Definately insiprational. I highly recommend his stuff to anyone interested in the fine points of information presentation. However, some people in my department (with whom I tend to agree) don't think too highly of him with respect to computer interfaces though. He is good at pointing out the problems, but a majority of his work is with static (ie print) information presentation. The dynamic world of the CRT is new can of worms and requires some different approaches, and he doesn't have much to offer here. > Shown above are convential graphical interfaces, with scroll > bars, multiple windows, and computer administrative debris. > ... Noise is costly, since computer displays are Case in point. With an interactive display, the user needs some way to manipulate the information which Tufte doesn't have many solutions to. But... > low-resolution devices, working at extremely thin data > densities, 1/10 to 1/1000 of a map or book page. This This is often very true. The information density of good printed map is tremendous. Its really difficult to get the same sort of density on screen with current display technology and making it interactive just compounds the problem. > I recently got to attend a special one-day course by Tufte where he Don't gloat now. Somewhat less inspirational, but more in touch with the interactive world is "Designing Visual Interfaces" Kevin Mullet and Darrell Sano (Prentice Hall 0-13-303389-9). -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:51:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19131 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19125 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover3 by scruz.net (8.7.3/1.34) id NAA02869; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31ED524A.4787@pinpt.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:51:22 -0700 From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Organization: PinPoint Software Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > NT: workstation version won't run a web server, must get server > version. $400+ for workstation, $600+ for server, with academic > discount. Netscapes=92 web servers run on both the Server and the Workstation = versions of NT. The only reason we chose to put it on the server = version is for future expansion and the addition of Microsoft products = that require server. I personally prefer FreeBSD and have our other web server running on = that. Matter a fact everything for the Internet (excepting the = corporate main WWW server) is running on FreeBSD now. -Sean -- = --- Sean J. Schluntz schluntz@pinpt.com PinPoint Software Corporation http://www.pinpt.com Phone: 408-997-6900 ext. 222 Fax: 408-323-2300 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:54:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19318 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19313; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00358; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:54:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:54:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Gary Palmer cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <28164.837493921@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > What sort of signs exactly? Tourist type signs? You were on the wrong > roads dude :-) Being native to that country, I know that there are a > lot of signs, of all types (apart from rude ones) all over the > place. I spent most of the time in the far north, and up to Orkney. Not too many signs up there. Of course, there are many places in the states with even fewer. One of my favorite signs I found when I lived in rural southeast Washington (state) was: Caution No Warning Signs Next 2 Miles > Although this has VERY little to do with freebsd :) Which is why it is in chat. ;-P -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 13:56:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19528 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19518 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08909; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:56:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Fieber cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:54:13 CDT." Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:56:26 -0400 Message-ID: <8906.837636986@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote in message ID : > I spent most of the time in the far north, and up to Orkney. Not > too many signs up there. Heh. I got that area ... ever come across the place near Avimore ( / Inverness) called `Lost' :-) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:02:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19961 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.i1.net (tbrown@mail1.i1.net [205.216.202.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA19956 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tbrown@localhost) by mail1.i1.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06104 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:02:09 -0500 From: Timothy Brown Message-Id: <199607172102.QAA06104@mail1.i1.net> Subject: NT To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:02:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FYI -- The price for a standard NT license is considerably higher than the MSDN subscription; to clarify, we're using our product only for development. I don't want Microsoft coming to knock on my door. :) -- Tim Brown Founder & Chair, ISP/C [http://www.ispc.org/] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:04:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA20170 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20164 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00398; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:04:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:04:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607161007.MAA17210@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Just by chance I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard yesterday > (no, not for me, for a customer). I tried it out and found it much > worse than I expected. It takes more than a day to settle into it. > I couldn't type at all, and the Alt-ctrl-foo > combinations were even worse than on a normally broken keyboard, due > probably to this damn silly flag key. I use the little finger on control (mapped to the key labeled caps lock) and the thumb on alt. It work just dandy for me. I find alt-control more trouble on regular keyboards, unless the control is down on the bottom row where it shouldn't be. However, I can see how control alt would be bad on the MS without the control remapped. > to handle. Normally I rest my forearms on the armrest of the chair, > and that doesn't work if you have to twist them through 15°. I guess you have a different geometry. :-) You probably should check out the US$500 Comfort Keyboard. You can adjust it about any way you could possibly want. > intended for that. I wonder if this is the beginning of an indication > that the mainstream has seen the error of its ways and is coming back > to using the keyboard for data entry. I'd interpret it as a recognition that it is easier to offer a couple input mechanisms than to standardize the user. In reality, I'll bet its more a marketing gimmic than anything else. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:13:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA20725 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20717; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA00452; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:13:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:13:16 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Gary Palmer cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <8906.837636986@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > Heh. I got that area ... ever come across the place near Avimore ( / > Inverness) called `Lost' :-) Nope. Its not listed in my OS atlas of Great Britain either. Got coordinates? -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:18:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21080 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21075 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24743 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607172117.OAA24743@antares.aero.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Van Speaks Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:17:25 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Van Jacobson doesn't post much, but when he does, it's a doozy. Those who are getting all flustered about TCP performance (and especially "TCP Vegas") would do well to read the following. ------- Forwarded Message Received: from aerospace.aero.org (aerospace.aero.org [130.221.192.10]) by antares.aero.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12307 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aero.org (aero.org [130.221.16.2]) by aerospace.aero.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23697 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by aero.org with SMTP id <111113-2>; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:04 -0700 Received: from ietf.org by ietf.org id aa06440; 16 Jul 96 23:47 EDT Received: from ietf.cnri.reston.va.us by ietf.org id aa03579; 16 Jul 96 23:44 EDT Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US by IETF.CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa00787; 16 Jul 96 23:44 EDT Received: from rx7.ee.lbl.gov by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa00606; 16 Jul 96 23:44 EDT Received: by rx7.ee.lbl.gov (8.6.12/1.43r) id UAA17867; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:45:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199607170345.UAA17867@rx7.ee.lbl.gov> To: Jon Crowcroft cc: iesg@ietf.org, ietf@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Subject: Re: Last Call: TCP Slow Start, Congestion Avoidance, Fast Retransmit, and Fast Recovery Algorithms to BCP In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 16 Jul 96 06:45:42 BST. Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:45:04 -0700 Sender: ietf-request@ietf.org From: Van Jacobson Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Jon, > that there are limits to its effectiveness (e.g. current > algorithm in presence of drop tail fifo routers has minium > effective rate of 1 packet per RTT You've said this on a number of occasions lately and I think you are giving it rather too much emphasis. The congestion control and timer algorithms were designed together and work in concert. The core of TCP's scalability is it's very conservative, very adaptable retransmit timer. Two things happen in the presense of congestion: queues increase rapidly which increases the RTT seen by users of the path (the biased mean+variance estimator tracks these changes and avoids further inflating the queue with spurious retransmits), and bottleneck link(s) can't handle the agregate input rate and packets get dropped (the exponential backoff in the retransmit timer(s) causes the input rate to drop to the point where it fits in the bottleneck bandwidth). This exponential rate backoff via the retransmit timer is an integral part of the TCP adaptation algorithm (in fact, I feel it's the primary part & the window adjustment stuff is a second order performance tweak). If you were to look at a TCP's behavior as you slowly lowered the available bandwidth, you would find it varied fairly smoothly down to arbitrarily low rates (as opposed to your mental model which seems to have things completely fall apart when the bandwidth-delay product falls below 1 packet) -- all that happens is that TCP modulates the window when the BDP is larger than a packet then switches to modulating the time between packets. To anticipate a question, no, the packet drop behavior doesn't change substantially between these two regimes. If you were to plot the number of drops as a function of available bandwidth, it would also vary fairly smoothly over the entire range. The problems with running in this timer controlled regime are that it's very unfair (because of something nearly identical to the ethernet capture effect) and bandwidth upstream of the bottleneck(s) is wasted transporting packets that will be dropped at the bottleneck (a very serious scaling problem in a general mesh network but a problem that people designing braindead "loss preference" machinery seem to ignore). But that doesn't mean it doesn't work -- it deals with congestion quite as well as modulating the window and, in the absense of something like RED in the gateways, is only slightly less fair (window modulation is also unfair because of an autocatalysis effect). RED makes either the window or timer scheme fair. I think the essense of reliable protocol design is getting the timers right. If you do, the protocol will probably work & scale (though there may be lots of things you'll have to tweak to get good performance). If you botch the timers, the protocol is guaranteed to fall apart at some scale (but, unfortunately, people are very bad about anticipating the effects of scale & a lot of these bench-top grad student projects end up escaping & causing no end of suffering for their users before they die). I think experience has shown that the TCP designers did a remarkably good job on the timers (contemporaries such as X.25 & TP-4 completely botched them). It's important to remember that they're the protocol's most basic defense against congestion and treat them with respect (and occasionally defend them against poorly conceived, destablizing "improvements" like the collection of mistakes in Arizona's "tcp vegas"). - Van ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:20:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21226 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neworder.cc.uky.edu (neworder.cc.uky.edu [128.163.18.198]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21201; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from soward@localhost) by neworder.cc.uky.edu (8.7/Soward0.1) id RAA07178; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:20:36 -0500 (GMT-0500) Message-Id: <199607172220.RAA07178@neworder.cc.uky.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.0 v141) Content-Type: text/plain Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.141) From: John Soward Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 17:20:35 -0500 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Subject: Re: Opinions? cc: Amancio Hasty , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: soward@service1.uky.edu References: <199607171942.MAA12521@freefall.freebsd.org> Organization: University of Kentucky Technical Services X-URL: "http://neworder.cc.uky.edu/" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's actually not the important figure to look at. Initial hardware and > software costs are a miniscule portion of the cost of deploying any system > on this scale. If you can show that solution X takes less time to install, > is easier to configure, is easier to upgrade, and requires minimal staff > training time to use, (along with being robust and fast, etc) you'll get > people to listen. > Here, Here. I deployed a POP server serving > 25,000 users, pusing well over 1G of mail/week...I hardly touch it now, I'd say < 5 hours/week and most of that is not nec needed enhancements. I fiddled with a toy one on NT with just a few dummy users, and spent more time than that with it...Aside from the POP and other mail related stuff, I'd hate to have to manage 25,000+ users under an NT system...Probably 100 users a day are added/deleted/changed, all handled elsewhere on a Sybase database and processed with a bunch of Perl scripts.. PS: I didn't use FreeBSD, but HPUX, however every indication is that a P-Pro with similar disk/RAM/Fddi would perform just as well as the K200 I'm using. --- John Soward JpS Systems Programmer 'The Midnight sun will burn you up.' University of Kentucky (NeXT and MIME mail OK) -R. Smith :::I'm not speaking for UK. I may not even be speaking for myself::: From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:23:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21494 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21485 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA01876; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:23:10 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:04:32 CDT." Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:23:09 -0700 Message-ID: <1874.837638589@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Just by chance I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard yesterday > > (no, not for me, for a customer). I tried it out and found it much > > worse than I expected. > > It takes more than a day to settle into it. Tell me about it - you motivated me into buying one myself yesterday and I'm still cursing the damn thing. I'm sure I'll get used to it in time if I force myself. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 14:48:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23655 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23650 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id PAA15023; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:48:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199607172148.PAA15023@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:48:20 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 17, 96 03:54:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jfieber@indiana.edu apparently scrawled: > I spent most of the time in the far north, and up to Orkney. Not > too many signs up there. Of course, there are many places in the > states with even fewer. One of my favorite signs I found when I > lived in rural southeast Washington (state) was: > > Caution > No Warning Signs > Next 2 Miles I-70 between Green River and Salinas, Utah, is flanked with the following signs: No Services Next 100 Miles Utah Highway Patrol has two troopers who partol this stretch; it's amazing the number of people who refuse to acknowlege that "No Services" means no gas, no water, no phone, no water, no place to stop, nothing but sand and brown sun-baked rocks, and most importantly no water. ;^) Utahns familiar with the area fall into two camps: one group wants to expand the signage so even MS-Windows users can uderstand: Caution: No services next 100 miles. No phone, no gas, ! and *no water.* There is absolutely *NO WATER* in the next 100 miles of highway. Abort FillUp Ignore The other group, whch I belong to, maintains that people who break down on this stretch of highway and don't even have drinking water with them are too stupid to live, and strengthen our species by removing themselves and their offspring the from the gene pool. Darwinism thrives! -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... softweyr@xmission.com | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 15:13:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25459 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25452 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00611; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:10:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:10:30 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Have you ever driven in, say, Boston? :-) > > I think I'll try not to. :) Excellent choice. Boston is a great place though. The computer museum is geek heaven. They even have Dan Hillis' tinkertoy computer on display there. > So how would you rework the signing so that a driver would be able to > comfortably recognize the desired sign and its meaning? Creative positioning could be a good start. Typically each road will have two signs, eg 37 North and 37 South. Signs for north-south routes could be stacked vertically, east-west routes side by side. Then there are the signs that indicate not the road, but a route TO the road. Those signs could be different to avoid confusion (I just turned where it said 37 south, but the sign *here* says 67!). There are a variety of options, but to work they must be applied consistently. Fortunately, the example here represents a worst case; things are usually not so confusing. > by a picture? The exit for the highway denoted by the icon with > something that looks like a cherry would have a great big sign with a > cherry-like icon on it? :) I haven't seen it here in the midwest, but on the east coast, many main roads have icons. The MassPike is a silly looking tophat, I forget what the Garden State Parkway is, but they have one. The New York Thruway has a pretty distinct sign. I'm sure there are others. > > This is speculation, but I would venture a guess that your own > > name is a special case and it may be processed visually rather > > than linguistically. > > Maybe, but then you would expect small changes in font and point size to > ruin this ability. If you were a computer, yes. But you are human with astonishing image processing capabilities. You can quickly identify a letter with independent of its typeface. There are probably quite a number of words that you can visually chunk as a single "icon", while less common words require digesting the letters and then getting the word from that. I'm getting a little far outside of my expertise here so I'll stop at that. > I haven't used the Macintosh finder (confined to UNIX & Windows3|(95)). Windows 3 has no counterpart to Finder; 95 does, but it with my brief exposure, its more complex without notably more functionality. > However, dragging, clicking, etc. can only replace so much. At some > point, you have to fall-back to either a menu-based interface or a > command-line interface, I believe. The two are essentially the same... Exactly the reverse could also be said. Command interfaces can only replace so much. Try putting together a modern magazine using something like TeX, then something like PageMaker. The person using PageMaker will be home having a barbeque while even an experienced TeXer is still hacking away. If your task can be effectively represented visually, there is a good chance that a visual interface will be powerful. The unix pipe model doesn't really fit that category. You can represent a pipeline visually, but it doesn't buy you much. > made faster if all text files were denoted with a small icon. But, once > given this file, how is the GUI supposed to determine wether the user > wants to diff it with another file, concatanate it to another file, view > the file, edit the file, etc. Drag the file(s) and drop them in/on the tool you want. Even unix/motif can do this. If you have access to an HP box with vue, try dragging a file from the file manager and dropping it in the text editor window. > `A GUI makes it easy to do simple operations and impossible to do complex > operations.' - paraphrase from I have no idea who. And wrong. Its damn hard to drive a screw with a hammer, but that exactly what GUI and Command line bigots try to do all the time. The typical echange is that each camp picks an example of an application that simply has no counterpart in the other camp and say "See! (CLI|GUI) sucks because you can't do X!". It is etremely rare that a CLI way of doing a task can be directly mapped into a GUI implementation, and if it can, its usually less efficient than the CLI version. However, if you just look at the end result, often times you can come up with a different way of doing it in a GUI that IS efficient. For obvious reasons, it is usually futile to turn good GUI programs into a command driven model. The unix community, with their general disdain for GUI fluff, sit in a corner, sharpening their CLI tools, even tools that would be much better as GUI things. They are very good at this and even the tools that should be GUI based are reasonably sharp. The others are extremely sharp. (But, GUI tools they do have are typically so pathetic, they shouldn't be shown in public, yet they are often held up as examples of why GUI doesn't work.) Meanwhile, the Mac community, with their general disdain for CLI fluff, sits in corner hammering every task into a GUI environment, whether appropriate or not. The exercise of hammering natuaral CLI stuff into GUI clothes doesn't result in very powerful stuff, but the Mac folks learn a whole lot about building GUI and stuff that does natuarly fit that model is impressive indeed. Windows, OS/2 and Amiga sit in the middle with the worst of all worlds compromise: dull GUI tools and dull CLI tools. If I had the money, I'd be very content both a mac and a unix box. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 15:16:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25711 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25704 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00636; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:16:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:16:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <1874.837638589@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Tell me about it - you motivated me into buying one myself yesterday > and I'm still cursing the damn thing. I'm sure I'll get used to it > in time if I force myself. ;-) If you don't please direct your lawsuits in Mr. Gates' direction, not mine. Give yourself about a week or two. If it doesn't feel "natural" by then, you may be permanently disfigured by your old keyboard. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 15:17:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25797 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25792 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA17128; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:18:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: John Fieber cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > How do I get these keys to work in color xterms and netscape and > > stuff like that? > > In you "keyboard" section of your XF86Config file: > > XkbSymbols "us(microsoft)" > XkbGeometry "microsoft" Ahhh, so that's it... I never knew they had a microsoft keyboard definition... =) > As far as making them work with specific applications, what do > you want them to do? A couple apps (XEmacs come to mind) respond > automagically to the Menu key. Generally, you need to need to > tell other apps what you want done with them. Actually, I just wanted the Windows icon key and the menu key to do exactly in fvwm95 what it does in win95... Vince From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 15:20:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25973 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp.com (hp.com [15.255.152.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25964 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA072632013; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:13 -0700 Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA164982013; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:13 -0700 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9607171520.ZM16496@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: Barnacle Wes "Re: FreeBSD keyboard" (Jul 17, 3:48pm) References: <199607172148.PAA15023@xmission.xmission.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: Barnacle Wes Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 17, 3:48pm, Barnacle Wes wrote: > Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard > jfieber@indiana.edu apparently scrawled: > > I spent most of the time in the far north, and up to Orkney. Not > > too many signs up there. Of course, there are many places in the > > states with even fewer. One of my favorite signs I found when I > > lived in rural southeast Washington (state) was: > > > > Caution > > No Warning Signs > > Next 2 Miles > > I-70 between Green River and Salinas, Utah, is flanked with the > following signs: > > No Services > Next 100 Miles > > Utah Highway Patrol has two troopers who partol this stretch; it's > amazing the number of people who refuse to acknowlege that "No > Services" means no gas, no water, no phone, no water, no place to stop, > nothing but sand and brown sun-baked rocks, and most importantly no > water. ;^) > > Utahns familiar with the area fall into two camps: one group wants > to expand the signage so even MS-Windows users can uderstand: > > Caution: No services next 100 miles. No phone, no gas, > ! and *no water.* There is absolutely *NO WATER* in the > next 100 miles of highway. > > Abort FillUp Ignore > > The other group, whch I belong to, maintains that people who break down > on this stretch of highway and don't even have drinking water with them > are too stupid to live, and strengthen our species by removing > themselves and their offspring the from the gene pool. Darwinism > thrives! > > On a stretch of particularly nasty road in the Boundary Waters of Northern Minnesota, there is a blind, one lane, hair pin turn across the face of a rock cliff. About 2 feet of clearence on either side. On one side, rock wall and the other side, a fourty foot drop the lake below. At this curve, which is on the Echo Trail and is know as "Ed Shave", A number of years ago there was a warning sign that said: Warning Dangerous Curve We're not kidding! I should add that it is imposible to backup once you are into this turn and logging truck come barrling around this turn on a regular basis. Last time I was in Ely, MN. which is near this turn I checked and the road dept had replaced the sign with one that did not include the last line. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | jgrosch@cup.hp.com | "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 16:00:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29158 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29139 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA08123; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: John Fieber cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you were a computer, yes. But you are human with astonishing > image processing capabilities. You can quickly identify a letter > with independent of its typeface. There are probably quite a > number of words that you can visually chunk as a single "icon", > while less common words require digesting the letters and then > getting the word from that. The latest research, which is killing the "whole language" school of teaching reading, demonstrates that very very few words are "chuncked" as a single icon; the competent, fast reader looks at every single letter of virtually every word, and skips or guesses very few words. Among the few that are chunked are the, of, and are; among those sometimes skipped are a, an, any. National Institutes of Health study, cost the taxpayers $25 million. Not sure it's relevant....but sort of interesting. Annelise > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 18:09:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA05718 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saba.kuentos.guam.net (root@saba.kuentos.guam.net [198.81.233.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA05700; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by saba.kuentos.guam.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #9) id m0ughaT-002F0FC; Thu, 18 Jul 96 11:09 GST Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:09:05 +1000 (GST) From: Meltedice To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <199607171928.MAA00328@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > > > Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop > > package you'll have to buy along with the relevant DNS, News and > > SLIP/PPP software (also throw in NFS so that you can eventually share > > filesystems with that SGI Challenge machine you've got your lustful > > eyes on and will buy once you hit 500 users to take some of the load > > off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived > > Do you know how much the above setup would cost? > > Tnks, > Amancio > I don't know the exact cost, but for the $40.00 you send Walnut Creek, your best choice would be FreeBSD, that is undisbutable. And if you are serious about setting up an ISP and MAKING MONEY, then you would be aware of the cost and invest your time in FreeBSD and not your money in NT. Leave all of the "nice pretty" point and click to your users PC's and Mac's at home. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : _ | | /"\ | " I am the Gecko! " | /o o\ | | _\/ \ / \/_ | meltedice@kuentos.guam.net | \\._/ /_.// | | `--, ,----' | http://www.guam.net/home/bhshaw2 | / / | | ^ / \ | KUENTOS CAFE... An IFORMS based Chat | /| ( ) | | / | ,__\ /__, | telnet buri.kuentos.guam.net 3000 | \ \ _//---, ,--\\_ | | \ \ /\ / / /\ | "Come on in and visit me" | \ \.___,/ / | | \.______,/ | | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 18:22:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06464 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06442; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02091; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607180116.SAA02091@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Meltedice cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:09:05 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:16:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Meltedice : > I don't know the exact cost, but for the $40.00 you send Walnut > Creek, your best choice would be FreeBSD, that is undisbutable. And if > you are serious about setting up an ISP and MAKING MONEY, then you would > be aware of the cost and invest your time in FreeBSD and not your > money in NT. Leave all of the "nice pretty" point and click to your users > PC's and Mac's at home. > We are not debating how much FreeBSD costs we know that. The question is how much does it cost to setup an NT ISP server? ISP server having NFS, POP Mail, NFS, http server, ftp... all the nice basic things we take for granted on a Unix box. Oh, in my favorited, mrouted 8) BTW: I am FreeBSD hacker... Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 18:22:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06490 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saba.kuentos.guam.net (root@saba.kuentos.guam.net [198.81.233.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06484 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by saba.kuentos.guam.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #9) id m0ughnT-002EtJC; Thu, 18 Jul 96 11:22 GST Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:22:31 +1000 (GST) From: Meltedice To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo Subject: Re: Opinions? In-Reply-To: <1431.837633413@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [Finally moved over exclusively to -chat] > > > It's actually not the important figure to look at. Initial hardware and > > software costs are a miniscule portion of the cost of deploying any system > > on this scale. If you can show that solution X takes less time to install, > > is easier to configure, is easier to upgrade, and requires minimal staff > > training time to use, (along with being robust and fast, etc) you'll get > > people to listen. > This represents a window of opportunity for us since once someone's > committed to something, be it for economic or for personal preference > reasons, they're probably not inclined to switch away from a solution > which works and they've already got the staff trained on. This is > the same rationale which has folks like DEC and HP donating massive > amounts of hardware and software to colleges - get 'em hooked while > they're young. :-) > > Jordan > I was one of those college kids who got hooked on Novell in the early 90's, when I was a user all I could do was push buttons. Then I actually was hired to learn, use, and discover Unix on an old AT&T 3B2/600G, then to Sun Servers and FreeBSD and BSDI now a days. Wow I am glad I was fortuanate enough to see the light! Bill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : _ | | /"\ | " I am the Gecko! " | /o o\ | | _\/ \ / \/_ | meltedice@kuentos.guam.net | \\._/ /_.// | | `--, ,----' | http://www.guam.net/home/bhshaw2 | / / | | ^ / \ | KUENTOS CAFE... An IFORMS based Chat | /| ( ) | | / | ,__\ /__, | telnet buri.kuentos.guam.net 3000 | \ \ _//---, ,--\\_ | | \ \ /\ / / /\ | | \ \.___,/ / | "Come on in and see me!!!" | \.______,/ | | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 19:23:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA10046 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saba.kuentos.guam.net (root@saba.kuentos.guam.net [198.81.233.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10039 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by saba.kuentos.guam.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #9) id m0ugikA-002F35C; Thu, 18 Jul 96 12:23 GST Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:23:09 +1000 (GST) From: Meltedice To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: John Fieber , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <1874.837638589@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Just by chance I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard yesterday > > > (no, not for me, for a customer). I tried it out and found it much > > > worse than I expected. > > > > It takes more than a day to settle into it. > > Tell me about it - you motivated me into buying one myself yesterday > and I'm still cursing the damn thing. I'm sure I'll get used to it > in time if I force myself. ;-) > > Jordan I have been using the MS "ergonomic" keyboard for many months now, and to be honest can jump back and forth with prior keyboards on other machines with relative ease once I was used to the MS k/b. Bill Shaw ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : _ | | /"\ | " I am the Gecko! " | /o o\ | | _\/ \ / \/_ | meltedice@kuentos.guam.net | \\._/ /_.// | | `--, ,----' | http://www.guam.net/home/bhshaw2 | / / | | ^ / \ | KUENTOS CAFE... An IFORMS based Chat | /| ( ) | | / | ,__\ /__, | telnet buri.kuentos.guam.net 3000 | \ \ _//---, ,--\\_ | | \ \ /\ / / /\ | "Come on in and visit me!!" | \ \.___,/ / | | \.______,/ | | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 21:41:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22256 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.gaffaneys.com (dialup14.gaffaneys.com [134.129.252.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22250 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zach@localhost) by freebsd.gaffaneys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02687; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:40:34 -0500 (CDT) To: "Josef C. Grosch" Cc: Barnacle Wes , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard (as related to road-signs) References: <199607172148.PAA15023@xmission.xmission.com> <9607171520.ZM16496@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> From: Zach Heilig Date: 17 Jul 1996 23:40:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Josef C. Grosch"'s message of Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:20:12 -0700 Message-ID: <87g26qqim7.fsf_-_@freebsd.gaffaneys.com> Lines: 44 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.32/Emacs 19.31 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Josef C. Grosch" writes: > Echo Trail and is know as "Ed Shave", A number of years ago there > was a warning sign that said: > Warning > Dangerous Curve > We're not kidding! > I should add that it is imposible to backup once you are into this > turn and logging truck come barrling around this turn on a regular > basis. Last time I was in Ely, MN. which is near this turn I checked > and the road dept had replaced the sign with one that did not > include the last line. Hey! I've seen that. I was riding with one of the locals (loco's?), and he pointed it out. He also slowed to about 10-15 mph, while he drove 50-70 the rest of the way. The Echo Trail (emphasis on trail) is about like the little mountain roads in California, Oregon, and Washington; except it is somewhat narrower, and reverting from blacktop to gravel under the pounding of all the logging trucks. Speaking of signs, there is an intersection here in Grand Forks that looks like this: | | | 1|2 +----+-parking lot | | | | The sign at #1 was a one-way sign pointing right, and the sign at #2 is a one-way sign pointing right. If you looked closely at the sign posts, you'd see that they were really twisted 90 degrees, but you had to have sharp eyes to see it. The north-south road is the one-way road, but obviously someone thought it'd be cool to have conflicting one-way signs for the east-west road :-) It stayed like that for several years before they "fixed" it by removing one of the signs (and neglecting to turn the other one the correct way). -- Zach Heilig (zach@blizzard.gaffaneys.com) | ALL unsolicited commercial email Support bacteria -- it's the | is unwelcome. I avoid dealing only culture some people have! | with companies that email ads. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 21:42:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22312 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22305 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01517; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:42:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:42:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Switching to Dvorak (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) In-Reply-To: <199607180336.DAA03538@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>> John Fieber writes: > > > ' , . p y f g r / = \ > > a o e u i d h t n s - > > ; q j k x b w m w v z > > Thanks for posting this, John! But where's `l' or `c' ?? ;-) Oops! Missed two on the top row: ' , . p y f g c r l / = \ a o e u i d h t n s - ; q j k x b w m w v z Also note, these are the unshifted keys. There are no rude surprises with the shifted versions, eg shift-/ is ?. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 22:03:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23246 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23214; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09210; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607180502.WAA09210@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, Domingo Siliceo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 17 Jul 96 12:02:32 -0700. <1073.837630152@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:02:36 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> learn all the quirkiness of Unix. NT and OS/2 are just better >> solutions than Unix for many of these people. And NT is a better >> server product in so many ways than OS/2. Plus, NT is a better >> business "workstation" OS than Unix because of all the business >> applications it runs. >While I don't disagree with any of your major points, and agree that >NT is *definitely* something we should be afraid (very afraid) of, I >think you missed one important point about it which Microsoft will be >the last to mention in their sales hype: Cost. Actually, corporate cost of ownership is measured in some very strange ways that can sometimes make some really odd choices the least expensive. Support costs alone can make something free cost a lot more than something "expensive". Not speaking of anything specific here, just in general. >Task: Create a small ISP using 3 or 4 PCs which will provide web >service, POP email accounts, News, DNS, dial-in SLIP/PPP and general >routing. Say we're also projecting between 500-1000 users as our [...] I can see we're already going off in different directions here. I was *not* speaking of a server OS specifically for an ISP. That is a very small share of the market server OS's are purchased for. The original poster said he was "still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT." He also added "there are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2," which leads me to believe he indeed intended to include markets not traditionally Unix-like. I was speaking of the broader market in general. Corporations that do a lot of "office work". Where they need to do a lot of application serving and sharing, print sharing, file sharing, secure access control to all that, an easy admin model, etc. Maybe deal out a few dial-in lines for their sales people out in the fields with laptops. >Now, go price 3 copies of NT Server plus the 1000 user commercial pop [...] >off). See the total you're quoted. Suffer heart failure. Be revived >by paramedics. Send $39.95 from your hospital bed to Walnut Creek >CDROM for *one* copy of FreeBSD and swear off Microsoft forever. :-) I agree completely. A small two or three-man-shop ISP is the very definition of a good application for FreeBSD or NetBSD. Of course, *we* know that they are even a great candidate for *any* size ISP. though some are more skeptical. I couldn't agree more. There isn't a market better suited for a solid free Unix, IMHO. Especially when they have a networking code base as excellent as the free BSDs. There are lots of other related areas where a free Unix, or even a commercial Unix, might be the best choice. Maybe some kind of network provider. Maybe a heavy-hit monster database server (although Microsoft has been getting lots of good press on their database performance). Maybe a huge simulation engine. Maybe just a monster compute server. However, I wasn't talking specifically about ISPs. I agree with you on ISPs. I was speaking of the entire server OS market as a whole. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 22:11:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23772 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23760; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09274; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607180511.WAA09274@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Bora Akyol cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 17 Jul 96 12:42:46 -0700. <199607171942.MAA28449@wireless.Stanford.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:11:43 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I agree with this, even as a single, technical user NT was not viable for me. >I needed NFS, mail service, X windows, Tex/Latex/Xdvi. [...] >FreeBSD cost me nothing and came with all the stuff that I needed. Well, *OBVIOUSLY* NT wasn't the right choice for you. I don't know why you even proposed it as an option. If you specifically spec'd a Unix system, how can anything else fit the spec. If I specifically asked for a system that runs Windows 95 software, can be remotely administered with the same UI as the rest of my MS BackOffice server apps, and is multi-processor and multi- threaded, would you try to sell me FreeBSD + XFree86? Of course not. That would be absurd. NetBSD served me for several years in exactly the same way you just described for yourself, above. But if someone came to me with the list I just presented, I wouldn't try to get them to run NetBSD. Of course, I'd probably work on them and try to get them to accept that The Unix Way was better. :-) But that would be irrespective of what they originally asked for. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 17 23:23:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA29637 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29627; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA09725; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607180623.XAA09725@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Matthew Jason White Subject: Re: Opinions? Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:41 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk He sent me a followup letter lamenting that he forgot to include the lists in his response. Being the kind person that I am, I'm forwarding this on. I had hoped the thread wouldn't continue on freebsd-current, but unfortunately, it did. So I'm including that group. I'll add that I pretty much agree with everything he says. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 02:08:36 -0400 From: Matthew Jason White To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Subject: Re: Opinions? Excerpts from internet.computing.freebsd-current: 17-Jul-96 Re: Opinions? by M. HeadCandy.com@HeadCan > There are lots of other related areas where a free Unix, or even a > commercial Unix, might be the best choice. Maybe some kind of network > provider. Maybe a heavy-hit monster database server (although > Microsoft has been getting lots of good press on their database > performance). Maybe a huge simulation engine. Maybe just a monster > compute server. Don't forget research boxes. Most research I know of uses software running on Unix boxes of some sort. There are a number of reasons for this ranging from simple tradition to the expressiveness of Unix compared to other OSes. When you're writing a reference version of a program, you don't want to be burdened with also writing a GUI for it at the same time, which NT all but forces you to do (you *can* associate a console with a program, but this is not the default). Further, I think it's also safe to assume that Unix will remain a favorite among hackers everywhere just because it behaves the way we expect an OS to behave and emphasizes the things that a hacker generally wants emphasized. There's something about eighteen command pipelines that appeal to almost every hacker I know. Obscure command lines also seem aestheticly pleasing at times. So as long as hackers are valued people in research and industry, Unix will most likely have a secure home. I think this is an important thing to consider. As we expand FreeBSD (and NetBSD and Linux and OpenBSD...), we have to consider who our audience is and who we want it to be. I personally feel that it's fine to start to encroach on Win95 and NT territory by developing GUI apps and admin tools, as long as we don't alienate our history in the process. Hmmpf...you can tell that it's late 'cause I'm rambling on. I suppose I'll be happy with FreeBSD as long as I can pull up an xterm to do stuff in and I never have to prefix a pathname 'c:'. - -Matt - ----- Matt White Email: mwhite+@cmu.edu http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/mwhite/www/ ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 01:35:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA04911 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 01:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.muc.ditec.de (gw.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA04904 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 01:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tartufo.muc.ditec.de (tartufo.muc.ditec.de [134.98.18.2]) by gw.muc.ditec.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03732; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:35:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tartufo.muc.ditec.de (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.39) id ; Thu, 18 Jul 96 10:37 MSZ Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 10:37 MSZ From: me@tartufo.muc.ditec.de (Michael Elbel) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <1874.837638589@time.cdrom.com> Reply-To: me@gw.muc.ditec.de X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >> It takes more than a day to settle into it. >Tell me about it - you motivated me into buying one myself yesterday >and I'm still cursing the damn thing. I'm sure I'll get used to it >in time if I force myself. ;-) Interesting. It looks like that Microsoft thingy is actually not that ergonomic. It certainly didn't take me longer than a day to fully get used to the Marquardt MiniErgo I'm typing on now. Maybe people should look into other alternatives - I recall a very nice looking thing (from cherry, I think) where you can actually take the halves apart. Michael -- Michael Elbel, DITEC, Muenchen, Germany - me@muc.ditec.de Fermentation fault (coors dumped) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 01:37:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05003 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 01:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (joeg@flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA04998 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 01:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from joeg@localhost) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id DAA08975; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:35:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199607180835.DAA08975@flowbee.interaccess.com> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:35:55 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joeg@truenorth.org In-Reply-To: <199607180623.XAA09725@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 17, 96 11:23:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [ DELETED ] >I'll add that I pretty much agree with everything he says. > >------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 02:08:36 -0400 > From: Matthew Jason White > To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" > Subject: Re: Opinions? > >Excerpts from internet.computing.freebsd-current: 17-Jul-96 Re: >Opinions? by M. HeadCandy.com@HeadCan >> There are lots of other related areas where a free Unix, or even a >> commercial Unix, might be the best choice. Maybe some kind of network >> provider. Maybe a heavy-hit monster database server (although >> Microsoft has been getting lots of good press on their database >> performance). Maybe a huge simulation engine. Maybe just a monster >> compute server. > >Don't forget research boxes. Most research I know of uses software >running on Unix boxes of some sort. There are a number of reasons for >this ranging from simple tradition to the expressiveness of Unix >compared to other OSes. When you're writing a reference version of a >program, you don't want to be burdened with also writing a GUI for it at >the same time, which NT all but forces you to do (you *can* associate a >console with a program, but this is not the default). > >Further, I think it's also safe to assume that Unix will remain a >favorite among hackers everywhere just because it behaves the way we >expect an OS to behave and emphasizes the things that a hacker generally >wants emphasized. There's something about eighteen command pipelines >that appeal to almost every hacker I know. Obscure command lines also >seem aestheticly pleasing at times. So as long as hackers are valued >people in research and industry, Unix will most likely have a secure >home. > [ DELETED ] Another point to consider is the availability of source code. Back before a UNIX source code license went for over $100,000.00 university like CMU, Stanford, MIT, and of course, Berkeley had UNIX, in source code, for students to study and learn from. This developed a generation of hackers who understood, in great detail, how UNIX worked. So there were a lot more UNIX "experts" for industry to hire than there were VMS or MVS experts. And because there were at the beginning of their career instead of being 7 to 10 years into it as a simular MVS or VMS "expert" they were less costly. With NT, not many people outside of microsloth have seen the source code let alone had the time to study it. I would guess that microslime has no plans to license the source code anytime soon. So, I suspect that there will be fewer NT "experts" for quite awhile and it will take longer to grow them. With the free UNIXes (sic ?) we are creating another generation of hackers who come on to the job market with an in depth knowledge of UNIX. Plus it a lot harder to hide an API when you have access to the source code. Best thing of all, there is no faster way to end an argument about what the system is doing then pulling out the source code :-) It goes without saying that there are a number of hurdles for the free UNIXes. The first is support and the second is the industry attitude that unless they have paid for it, it has no value. Josef -- Josef Grosch - joeg@truenorth.org | "Laugh while you can, monkey boy." http://www.interaccess.com/users/joeg | - John Warfin - ========================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 02:05:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA06794 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA06786 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ugp1c-000QgHC; Thu, 18 Jul 96 11:05 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA25055; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:26:17 +0200 Message-Id: <199607180826.KAA25055@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:26:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 17, 96 04:04:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Just by chance I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard yesterday >> (no, not for me, for a customer). I tried it out and found it much >> worse than I expected. > > It takes more than a day to settle into it. I could believe that :-( My real question is, why bother? >> I couldn't type at all, and the Alt-ctrl-foo >> combinations were even worse than on a normally broken keyboard, due >> probably to this damn silly flag key. > > I use the little finger on control (mapped to the key labeled > caps lock) and the thumb on alt. It work just dandy for me. I > find alt-control more trouble on regular keyboards, unless the > control is down on the bottom row where it shouldn't be. > However, I can see how control alt would be bad on the MS without > the control remapped. That works for some of the F keys. On my keyboard, F1 is too far to the left for that. And I can get any F key on the left with thumb on the Alt and forefinger on the Ctrl. I've just checked my wife's (conventional, contemporary) keyboard, and yes, the F1 is further to the right than on my keyboard. It's still not as easy to reach as on the left. >> to handle. Normally I rest my forearms on the armrest of the chair, >> and that doesn't work if you have to twist them through 15°. > > I guess you have a different geometry. :-) It's more like my chair. In fact, looking at the way I sit, I *do* have my arms inclined at about 15°, so it's not the angle of the Microsoft keyboard (which is no longer here to try), but the separation of the two halves, which would require a wider chair (or at least, a greater separation of the armrests). > You probably should > check out the US$500 Comfort Keyboard. You can adjust it about > any way you could possibly want. At that price, I'd expect it to type for me. >> intended for that. I wonder if this is the beginning of an indication >> that the mainstream has seen the error of its ways and is coming back >> to using the keyboard for data entry. > > I'd interpret it as a recognition that it is easier to offer a > couple input mechanisms than to standardize the user. That's a recognition, anyway. So far I had the feeling that Microsoft sold "one type fits all". > In reality, I'll bet its more a marketing gimmic than anything else. I think I'd agree on that one. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 04:27:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12933 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA12925 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id MAA17507 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:41:40 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA20534 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:41:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA04813 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607180948.LAA04813@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Switching to Dvorak (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Jul 17, 96 11:42:44 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John Fieber wrote: > ' , . p y f g c r l / = \ > a o e u i d h t n s - > ; q j k x b w m w v z > > Also note, these are the unshifted keys. There are no rude > surprises with the shifted versions, eg shift-/ is ?. But where's my `äöü' keys? :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 04:38:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA13638 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA13631 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA00473; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607181138.EAA00473@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: joeg@truenorth.org cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:35:55 CDT." <199607180835.DAA08975@flowbee.interaccess.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:38:37 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > With NT, not many people outside of microsloth have seen the source code > let alone had the time to study it. I would guess that microslime has no > plans to license the source code anytime soon. So, I suspect that there > will be fewer NT "experts" for quite awhile and it will take longer to grow BTW: If I am not mistaken Michael works for Microsoft so be easy on the anti-Microsoft propaganda... Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 07:33:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA20740 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20728 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA26210; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:20:53 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA22719; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:20:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA05666; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:08:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607181408.QAA05666@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: mitsumi CD-ROM To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:08:47 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, terry@lambert.org, mrm@mole.mole.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607181254.FAA27245@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at "Jul 18, 96 05:54:24 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat, the technical contents of this discussion is rapidly dropping and being replaced by religion.) As M.R.Murphy wrote: > It astounds me that somebody can sell the IDE interface, in a box, > shrinkwrapped, with documentation, shipping, marketing, and retail > markup, for about $20. And they throw in cables, too. Did we > mention how much good SCSI cables and external enclosures for > the disk farm might cost? :-) :-) An NCR 53c810 is around $80. Still a bit more, but you can hang twice the devices on it. Internal SCSI cables are as inexpensive as internal IDE ones, and it's well-known that the rather uniform impedance across the length of a ribbon cable does make a perfect SCSI cabling as well. Of course, there's no such thing like an external IDE connector, nor an external IDE disk cabinet for that matter, so i wonder what you are comparing this against? ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 07:53:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA24339 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA24330 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02624; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:53:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:53:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607180826.KAA25055@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > It takes more than a day to settle into it. > > I could believe that :-( My real question is, why bother? If after a long day of typing, your hands, wrists and/or arms are sore in any way, you could be causing permanent dammage to yourself, even if the pain is quite subtle. After many years, you may completely loose your ability to type. I'm not making this up, it really happens to people. For me, switching from a regular keyboard to the MS keyboard was awkward for awhile, but not painful. Going back to a regular keyboard now is awkward, *and* painful. I doubt it is any more painful than using it was before, but now that I've typed on something else that doesn't hurt, I really notice it. Its the old notion of not noticing the air until there isn't any of it. Alternate analogy: bad habbits are hard to break, even if you know they are bad. Given the huge losses that companies swallow in RSI treatment and lost work time caused by poor keyboard design, I find it hard to believe that there are so *few* alternative keyboards on the market. The MS one is the first affordable one, but since people differ in their geometry, its fixed geometry is less than ideal. Also, people who like the noisy IBM key action won't like it that much. > > I guess you have a different geometry. :-) > > It's more like my chair. In fact, looking at the way I sit, I *do* > have my arms inclined at about 15°, Of course, you have to have them inclined because your shoulders are wider than where your hands have to be. Thats not the big problem with regular keyboards. The problem is you have to bend your wrists outward in a less than natural position to align your fingers on the home row of a regular keyboard: | | / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ regular microsoft For more information on typing injuries and alternate keyboards, look at: http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/ -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 08:22:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26579 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA26569 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uguth-000QgQC; Thu, 18 Jul 96 17:21 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA25499; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:01:56 +0200 Message-Id: <199607181501.RAA25499@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:01:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 18, 96 09:53:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> It takes more than a day to settle into it. >> >> I could believe that :-( My real question is, why bother? > > If after a long day of typing, your hands, wrists and/or arms are > sore in any way, you could be causing permanent dammage to > yourself, even if the pain is quite subtle. After many years, > you may completely loose your ability to type. I'm not making > this up, it really happens to people. I don't have a problem with that. > For me, switching from a regular keyboard to the MS keyboard was > awkward for awhile, but not painful. Going back to a regular > keyboard now is awkward, *and* painful. I doubt it is any more > painful than using it was before, but now that I've typed on > something else that doesn't hurt, I really notice it. Its the > old notion of not noticing the air until there isn't any of it. > Alternate analogy: bad habbits are hard to break, even if you > know they are bad. Don't get me wrong, I've done a *lot* of thinking about ergonomics. I don't suffer from RSI (yet), but my wife does, and seeing the conditions under which she worked, I'm not surprised. My question, which still hasn't been answered to my satisfaction, is: "Is the new, funny-looking Microsoft keyboard ergonomic?". You say yes, and for you it's obviously an improvement. My mileage may vary. > Given the huge losses that companies swallow in RSI treatment and > lost work time caused by poor keyboard design, I find it hard to > believe that there are so *few* alternative keyboards on the > market. The MS one is the first affordable one, but since people > differ in their geometry, its fixed geometry is less than ideal. > Also, people who like the noisy IBM key action won't like it that > much. I didn't have much of a problem with the keys themselves. >>> I guess you have a different geometry. :-) >> >> It's more like my chair. In fact, looking at the way I sit, I *do* >> have my arms inclined at about 15°, > > Of course, you have to have them inclined because your shoulders > are wider than where your hands have to be. Thats not the big > problem with regular keyboards. The problem is you have to bend > your wrists outward in a less than natural position to align your > fingers on the home row of a regular keyboard: > > | | / \ > / \ / \ > / \ / \ > > regular microsoft Sure. But that's not quite the truth: there's a large gap between the two halves of the Microsoft keyboard, and that's what I'm complaining about. It's more like: | | / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ regular microsoft That leaves your elbows further apart if you maintain the same angle. > For more information on typing injuries and alternate keyboards, > look at: > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/ Reading the Web costs me an arm and a leg. Is this the FAQ that goes through news.answers? I've read it some time ago. I agree with most of it, but it didn't mention the Microsoft keyboard at the time. One problem I have with the Microsoft keyboard is that it still has straight rows of keys. I've done some experimentation, and I find that curved rows would make more sense. Certainly, any keyboard that has the keys I use frequently in difficult-to-access places is subjectively not an ergonomic keyboard. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 08:29:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26886 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (joeg@flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26881 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from joeg@localhost) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id KAA18675; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:28:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199607181528.KAA18675@flowbee.interaccess.com> Subject: Re: Opinions? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:28:14 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joeg@truenorth.org In-Reply-To: <199607181138.EAA00473@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jul 18, 96 04:38:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >> With NT, not many people outside of microsloth have seen the source code >> let alone had the time to study it. I would guess that microslime has no >> plans to license the source code anytime soon. So, I suspect that there >> will be fewer NT "experts" for quite awhile and it will take longer to grow > >BTW: If I am not mistaken Michael works for Microsoft so be easy on >the anti-Microsoft propaganda... > > Cheers, > Amancio > OOOPS! Sorry about that. As everyone can see I suffer from the "Foot-IN-Mouth" disease. Nothing personal. Josef -- Josef Grosch - joeg@truenorth.org | "Laugh while you can, monkey boy." http://www.interaccess.com/users/joeg | - John Warfin - ========================================================================== Keeper of FreeBSD ported list - FreeBSD 2.1.0R http://www.interaccess.com/users/joeg/ported.html ========================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 09:39:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00905 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00897 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover3 by scruz.net (8.7.3/1.34) id JAA18108; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31EE68D4.7142@pinpt.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:39:48 -0700 From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Organization: PinPoint Software Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? References: <199607180116.SAA02091@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > We are not debating how much FreeBSD costs we know that. The question > is how much does it cost to setup an NT ISP server? > > ISP server having NFS, POP Mail, NFS, http server, ftp... all the nice > basic things we take for granted on a Unix box. Oh, in my favorited, > mrouted 8) 4K for a good computer (P200, 64megs RAM, 4gigs hd etc.). $600 for NT (Single User Server.) Shareware WFTPD ($15), NT Internet Server ($0, though I don't really like it.) SendMail32 ($100 I think ). I don't know about pop. You can get around some of the cost by putting your dial up stuff on a 95 station and get around the multi user issues. (Using the somewhat limited RAS in 95.) For 2K (Software and computer, not including the modem pool it's self.) So for about 7 to 8K you can set of the computers and software (minus the modem pool, phone lines and Internet connectivity. Though those costs would not change from NT or FreeBSD.) Though I would still do it all with FreeBSD. I work with FreeBSD, OS/2, NT Server/Workstation, 95 and WFW here and of all of them the FreeBSD is the easiest to keep on the Internet and the least hassle in general. -Sean -- --- Sean J. Schluntz schluntz@pinpt.com PinPoint Software Corporation http://www.pinpt.com Phone: 408-997-6900 ext. 222 Fax: 408-323-2300 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 14:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18121 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18057; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14944; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 23:14:54 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA25918; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 23:14:05 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id WAA17643; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:35:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607182035.WAA17643@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:35:28 +0200 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3-button mice on laptops (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) In-Reply-To: <199607162250.PAA04560@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jeffrey Hsu on Jul 16, 1996 15:50:10 -0700 References: <199607162250.PAA04560@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.37 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jeffrey Hsu: > mouse, but they're uniformly 2-button, except for RDI's sparc laptop. > Are there any pc notebooks which have an option for 3-button built-in > mice? Yes, Tadpole's P1000 which is a P100. DON'T BUY IT ! It has the most horrible PCI implementation i've ever seen (ask Stephan Esser) and the worst for a laptop: it has NO save and resume. You have to shut it down each time. I've never seen such an unusable machine. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #15: Sun Jul 14 17:33:54 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 14:33:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18977 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18970 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA04453; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:32:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199607182132.QAA04453@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Re: mitsumi CD-ROM To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:32:34 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, terry@lambert.org, mrm@mole.mole.org In-Reply-To: <199607181408.QAA05666@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jul 18, 96 04:08:47 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > (Moved to -chat, the technical contents of this discussion is rapidly > dropping and being replaced by religion.) > > As M.R.Murphy wrote: > > > It astounds me that somebody can sell the IDE interface, in a box, > > shrinkwrapped, with documentation, shipping, marketing, and retail > > markup, for about $20. And they throw in cables, too. Did we > > mention how much good SCSI cables and external enclosures for > > the disk farm might cost? :-) :-) > > An NCR 53c810 is around $80. Still a bit more, but you can hang twice > the devices on it. Internal SCSI cables are as inexpensive as > internal IDE ones, and it's well-known that the rather uniform > impedance across the length of a ribbon cable does make a perfect SCSI > cabling as well. Of course, there's no such thing like an external > IDE connector, nor an external IDE disk cabinet for that matter, so i > wonder what you are comparing this against? ;-) Also, isn't IDE cable length limited to something like 18 inches? That would certainly restrict the usefulness of external devices. -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 14:40:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19989 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19972; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA04529; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:40:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199607182140.QAA04529@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Re: 3-button mice on laptops (was Re: FreeBSD keyboard) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:40:05 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607182035.WAA17643@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Jul 18, 96 10:35:28 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Jeffrey Hsu: > > mouse, but they're uniformly 2-button, except for RDI's sparc laptop. > > Are there any pc notebooks which have an option for 3-button built-in > > mice? > > Yes, Tadpole's P1000 which is a P100. DON'T BUY IT ! It has the most > horrible PCI implementation i've ever seen (ask Stephan Esser) and the > worst for a laptop: it has NO save and resume. You have to shut it down > each time. > > I've never seen such an unusable machine. My Dell Latitude XPi-P120ST has only two buttons, but they are both large and completely surround the track ball, making pressing both of them to emulate the center button reasonably easy. -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 20:25:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19873 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19862 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04120; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:24:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:23:55 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607181501.RAA25499@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > conditions under which she worked, I'm not surprised. My question, > which still hasn't been answered to my satisfaction, is: "Is the new, > funny-looking Microsoft keyboard ergonomic?". Yes, for some people. The whole point of ergonomics is designing the tool to fit the human; humans come in all shapes and sizes so the MS keyboard will not be the solution for everyone. However, I'd venture to say that for a very large number of computer users, it is at least an improvement over the standard issue PC keyboard, although for some the improvement may not be very dramatic, or even worthwhile. > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/ > > Reading the Web costs me an arm and a leg. Is this the FAQ that goes > through news.answers? Probably, although the web version has pictures of the keyboards (to the tune of ~700k on one page). > straight rows of keys. I've done some experimentation, and I find > that curved rows would make more sense. And you can buy such keyboards, but (unfortunately) they are expensive. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 18 23:42:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA08502 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 23:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA08495; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 23:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bsdcon@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA09702; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 02:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 02:42:53 -0400 (EDT) From: BSD Conference Account To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSDCON call for papers. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk *** First call for papers at BSDCON '96! *** This is the first call for papers and speakers for bsdcon '96. All those wishing to lecture at bsdcon need to at least notify the organizers of your interest and topic of your paper this month. Final call will take place in 2 months. At that time no more submissions will be taken. All papers MUST be relevant to one of the many FREE *BSD unix (Net, Free, Open, etc..). That is the theme of BSDCON. Subject matter is open, networking, src control systems, routing, etc.. All those interested in lecturing send papers or ideas to bsdcon@webspan.net Direct all questions and comments to bsdcon@webspan.net Looking forward to hearing from all interested parties! Chris Watson scanner@bsdnet.org ===================================| BSDCON! An annual FREE *BSD Unix Event! FreeBSD 2.1.5 is available now! | Sponsored by the BSDNET organization! -----------------------------------| NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD! Turning PCs into Workstations | Bringing Truth, and strength to the http://www.freebsd.org | *BSD Camps! http://www.webspan.net/~bsdcon ===================================| E-mail bsdcon@webspan.net for more info! From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 02:24:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA16976 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 02:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA16970 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 02:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03621; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA07394; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607190926.FAA07394@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Mailer: slnr v.2.13 as ported to FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org To: jfieber@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In Email, John Fieber wrote: I fixed the cc: list to have chat@freebsd again, since it was my fooling around with a new mailer that got rid of it in the first place. > On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > For something with fairly simple and regular layout, sure. For > something like WIRED, probably not. SGML (in spirit) completely > separates presentation from content. At one end of the text Well yes, that's what the SGML gurus seem to say when they are waxing philosophical... :) I think it could be done, but the sheer complexity caused by the number of elements and attributes that would be necessary would make it rather impractical. > > You forgot diff. > > Diff is an easy one! You have two, possibly three files, plop > them on your diff tool, cruncha, cruncha, cruncha, then you have > highlighted side-by side comparisons with differences highlighted > in different colors, you just go through selecting which pieces > you want from which file, generating a new file. If all you want > is a patch file, even easier. Adjust a few knobs on the diff > tool for how you want the diff generated, then drag your files, > or a whole folder of files in and bam, there is your diff! You make it sound so exciting! :) "cruncha, cruncha" ... "adjust a few knobs" ... "bam, there is your diff!" :) The problem, as I see it, is that if you are going to have to resort to using icons for tools, you could end up with such a large number of icons (and remember, each of these icons must be large enough for a few knobs (or does the icon grow larger when we drop something on it to allow finer control?)) that the whole system becomes unuseable. Or, maybe in practice it's not necessary to have more than a single row of icons. -- -- tIM...HOEk Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? NEVER! From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 15:39:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24058 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seabass.progroup.com (catfish.progroup.com [206.24.122.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24038; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from craig@localhost) by seabass.progroup.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA06649; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607192240.PAA06649@seabass.progroup.com> Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:40:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Craig Shaver" In-Reply-To: <199607171610.JAA05923@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 17, 96 09:10:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. > >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not > >made by Microsoft. > > > > Because NT is a very solid server OS. It is tightly integrated with > the most popular application server software, Microsoft BackOffice. > It is *the* most stable OS I have run. It scales well across multiple > CPUs, and has a very solid multi-processor and multi-threaded kernel. > NT 4.0 will have not only dynamically scheduled threads, but user- blah, blah, blah, on and on .... del ...... Ok, NT is better than windog 3.1 and wingding95. I am working on a project that uses NT 3.51 backends for a proprietary database that was built for use on win95/NT. These backends are connected to a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.5. You can see this in action by going to the home page at http://www.familytreemaker.com/. About half way down is something called "Family Finder Index". This is a cgi program that gets data from the NT's and puts it into a web page. The NT's work ok until something unforseen happens. Back in April we had a power outage. The Sparc rebooted automatically and all of the rc scripts started all of the background daemons and everything worked. No humans needed. The NT's sat there and refused to run anything until some user logged in! Apparently there is no way to have a program automatically run unless you log in and then you have something in that little "start" window. Nice design for a *server*! I guess if someone uses NT for a server and the power goes down in the middle of the night, then *someone* will have to be there to log in and start all of the server processes. (snort, snicker, guffaw, ;^) (There may be a fix for this in service pak 4! :^) -- Craig Shaver (craig@progroup.com) (415)390-0654 Productivity Group POB 60458 Sunnyvale, CA 94088 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 16:21:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25490 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25447 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id BAA29679 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:20:47 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA20247 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:20:47 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA01524 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:55:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607192255.AAA01524@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:55:05 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607192240.PAA06649@seabass.progroup.com> from Craig Shaver at "Jul 19, 96 03:40:44 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Craig Shaver wrote: > The NT's sat there and refused to run anything until > some user logged in! Apparently there is no way to have a program > automatically run unless you log in and then you have something in that > little "start" window. Nice design for a *server*! I guess if someone > uses NT for a server and the power goes down in the middle of the night, ... NT servers never go down. This helps improving the sales figures for companies like APC, of course. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 17:28:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA28844 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA28839; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14732(1)>; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:27:37 PDT Received: by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA14374; Fri, 19 Jul 96 20:27:42 EDT Message-Id: <9607200027.AA14374@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> To: "Craig Shaver" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:40:44 PDT." <199607192240.PAA06649@seabass.progroup.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:27:41 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199607192240.PAA06649@seabass.progroup.com>, you write: >> >> >> >> > >> >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. >> >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not >> >made by Microsoft. >> > >> >> Because NT is a very solid server OS. It is tightly integrated with >> the most popular application server software, Microsoft BackOffice. >> It is *the* most stable OS I have run. It scales well across multiple >> CPUs, and has a very solid multi-processor and multi-threaded kernel. >> NT 4.0 will have not only dynamically scheduled threads, but user- >blah, blah, blah, on and on .... del ...... > I've had very negative experiences with OS/2. I've installed it multiple times (I got OS/2 warp/ warp connect and NE2000 boards). I've installed it several times in the last year on different machines configured differently...I don't do any serous work on them, OS/2 warp eventually came up with a useless message "file system corrupt--please call for support...right, sure, like, someone will come to my house and fix my machine? pretty useless... NT is fine in many regards...but I just have an NT 3.51 installation go south, and the "repair" mode can't seem to find my CD-ROM... I also was writing some netbios/lanserver emulation code on another machine (a sun) running TCP/IP. I obviously had a bug in my program (; -)) and it seems I bought NT (3.51) to its knees with my bug (a panic). Any OS where a buggy remote application can crash the machine is suspect (yes, it can happen, but it points to architectural problems). I found win95 pretty reasonable in many ways (I use it somewhat, mainly to run win32 applications...and I need to network with it...) In many cases installation was pretty plug and chug and it seems much more reliable than windows 3.1... Just MHO. I really get miffed hearing people laud the robustness of NT and OS/2...I found both pale to current copies of linux and FreeBSD. thank you, marty From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 17:52:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29656 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29604; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04766; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200051.RAA04766@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Marty Leisner" cc: "Craig Shaver" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:27:41 PDT." <9607200027.AA14374@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:51:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While working at M/Cast a couple of months ago, Win95 tended to crash oh about 5 to 10 times a day during development of the multimedia apps. A bad transceiver brought to its knees all the Win95 PCs. The sun boxes and the FreeBSD seemed to happily continue working. I guess if you don't use Win95 for development is an okay platform. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 17:55:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA00300 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA00278; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04779; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200053.RAA04779@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Marty Leisner" cc: "Craig Shaver" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:27:41 PDT." <9607200027.AA14374@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:53:45 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Marty Leisner" : > I really get miffed hearing people laud the robustness of NT and OS/2...I fou nd > both pale to current copies of linux and FreeBSD. > Well, it depends on your point of view. Yes Linux and FreeBSD are probably more robust than NT or OS/2 however from a DOS and Win3.1 point of view NT is rock solid 8) Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 20:26:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07656 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07643 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA01331 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:23:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199607200323.XAA01331@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Opinions again To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:23:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >From The Desk Of "Marty Leisner" : > > I really get miffed hearing people laud the robustness of NT and OS/2...I > > found both pale to current copies of linux and FreeBSD. > > > > Well, it depends on your point of view. Yes Linux and FreeBSD are probably > more robust than NT or OS/2 however from a DOS and Win3.1 point of view > NT is rock solid 8) > > > Regards, > Amancio FreeBSD is more robust than Linux, Solaris, SunOS, HP-UX. I'm running OS/2, AIX, Win/NT, FreeBSD, Linux. The OS/2 problem as far as robustness is the Presentation Manager single input queue problem -- which looks like it's Fixed (er, well worked around) in the latest Fixpack (17). Realistically, I've had the best reliability with FreeBSD. The worst was HP-UX. (The patch of the week) SunOS had the "you want us to fix WHAT... Use Solaris" problem. At least VAX/VMS used to have a timely patch service. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win95 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 21:33:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12752 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12732; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21012-4511>; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:33:29 -0400 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:33:26 -0400 From: Cat Okita To: Marty Leisner cc: Craig Shaver , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-Reply-To: <9607200027.AA14374@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Marty Leisner wrote: > NT is fine in many regards...but I just have an NT 3.51 installation go south, > and the "repair" mode can't seem to find my CD-ROM... (...) > I found win95 pretty reasonable in many ways (I use it somewhat, mainly to > run win32 applications...and I need to network with it...) In many cases > installation was pretty plug and chug and it seems much more reliable than > windows 3.1... ...except Win95 isn't reliable on a network at all, has no concept of user or file level secrity, and a spectacularly useless debug mode... Personally, I'm miles happier with the 'hybrid' network we have, which includes PC's running NT, BSDi, FreeBSD and Solaris x86, together with a variety of servers running IRIX, SunOS, Solaris and OSF/1. The only thing we use Win95 for is laptops, since they're often required to run standalone. This takes care of the sales/marketing/admin folk, who think that unix is scary, and aren't too sure about PC's at all, as well as the techies who'd die if they didn't have unix... Both NT and Unix have appropriate places for use...and appropriate users... Cat From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 21:41:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA13376 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA13352; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20333; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200441.VAA20333@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Craig Shaver" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:40:44 -0700. <199607192240.PAA06649@seabass.progroup.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:41:12 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > >> >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. >> >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not >> >made by Microsoft. >> > >> Because NT is a very solid server OS. It is tightly integrated with >> the most popular application server software, Microsoft BackOffice. >> It is *the* most stable OS I have run. It scales well across multiple >> CPUs, and has a very solid multi-processor and multi-threaded kernel. >> NT 4.0 will have not only dynamically scheduled threads, but user- >blah, blah, blah, on and on .... del ...... >Ok, NT is better than windog 3.1 and wingding95. I am working on a >project that uses NT 3.51 backends for a proprietary database that was [...] >The NT's work ok until something unforseen happens. Back in April we Everything can potentially have problems when something unforseen happens. It would be hard to anticipate something you can't forsee. >had a power outage. The Sparc rebooted automatically and all of the rc >scripts started all of the background daemons and everything worked. No >humans needed. The NT's sat there and refused to run anything until >some user logged in! Apparently there is no way to have a program >automatically run unless you log in and then you have something in that >little "start" window. Apparently you can spout a lot of nonsense about a subject you don't understand. Creating "services" (NT's version of "daemons") is a very well documented topic on the Microsoft Developer's Network. That's like telling you I don't think Unix can create processes because I never bothered to find the "fork" man page. >Nice design for a *server*! I guess if someone >uses NT for a server and the power goes down in the middle of the night, >then *someone* will have to be there to log in and start all of the server >processes. (snort, snicker, guffaw, ;^) Doubtful, since it would be totally unnecessary for a properly written and properly installed NT service. >(There may be a fix for this in service pak 4! :^) Generally, yes, that would be my first suggestion if you found a bug in NT. Microsoft releases publicly available fixes. Gee, I wonder if applying them would help at all. Of course, they wouldn't help your software restart if it wasn't written as a service, because that isn't a bug. For what it's worth, a large number of fixes in SP1 - SP4 were found while stress-testing Exchange server. I can indeed verify that the NT guys take stability as serious as a heart attack. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 22:11:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA14227 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14221 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAB20472; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200510.WAB20472@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marty Leisner" cc: "Craig Shaver" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 19 Jul 96 17:27:41 -0700. <9607200027.AA14374@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:10:02 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Really, I don't see how this is very relevant to FreeBSD anymore, however. Further followups should really be done in private email, or to FreeBSD-chat. >>> > >>> >I'm still trying to understand why people think they have to run NT. >>> >There are other options, like FreeBSD and OS/2. A lot cheaper and not >>> >made by Microsoft. >>> > >>> Because NT is a very solid server OS. It is tightly integrated with [etc....] >>blah, blah, blah, on and on .... del ...... >I've had very negative experiences with OS/2. [...] >NT is fine in many regards...but I just have an NT 3.51 installation go south, >and the "repair" mode can't seem to find my CD-ROM... Yes, if you toast an NT system the recover process can sometimes bite. I have had to do clean installs occasionally. I sent email to the NT guys about it, they loved some of my suggestions, but suggested I write them because they have too many higher-priority things to worry about, first. Bummer, but such is life... >I also was writing some netbios/lanserver emulation code on another machine >(a sun) running TCP/IP. I obviously had a bug in my program (; -)) and it >seems I bought NT (3.51) to its knees with my bug (a panic). >Any OS where a buggy remote application can crash the machine is suspect >(yes, it can happen, but it points to architectural problems). Uh, if I nuked NetBSD and FreeBSD the first time they panic'd, I'd certainly be running something less exciting in their place. NT is software. Software has bugs. Period. NetBSD and FreeBSD also fall into this category. Personally, I think NetBSD and FreeBSD are really kick-ass gotta-have- it software. But, they're still software, and they still have bugs. Just like NT. I still stand by my statement that NT is the most reliable OS I have run. And I have developed an enormous amount of respect for it, after seeing some of the hell I've seen it run through. In our stress labs, we beat the crap out of Exchange. NT gets the crap beat out of it in the process. I've seen some pretty huge iron (4 processor 300MHz DEC Alphas with a couple hundred megabytes of RAM) pounded by and dishing out a hellish amount of RPC traffic, while a whole rack of RAID drives are going non-stop. (We're talking about hundreds of client machines running stress apps against a set of servers, who are also inter-communicating and replicating data at the same time.) And I have seen *very* few crashes. What's more, every OS crash has had an NT guy down there debugging it shortly after it happened. Understand that the NT guys do not take a single crash lightly. Incidentally, this very environment is where the majority of the fixes in NT 3.51 SP1 - SP4 where generated. Out of curiosity, did you have any of the service packs (preferably SP4) applied to that system you crashed? Were you able to reproduce the crash consistenly? >I found win95 pretty reasonable in many ways (I use it somewhat, mainly to >run win32 applications...and I need to network with it...) In many cases >installation was pretty plug and chug and it seems much more reliable than >windows 3.1... Well, yes, but Windows 95 is a multimedia home OS. We're talking about server OS's. >I really get miffed hearing people laud the robustness of NT and >OS/2... I found both pale to current copies of linux and FreeBSD. I really get miffed when I hear people dismiss NT off the cuff because they crashed Win 3.1 or Win 95, and/or they really haven't spent any time with NT. But, ignorance is bliss, I guess. I also would assert that NT doesn't belong in the same category with Windows 95 (a home multimedia OS), or OS/2 (a nice try, but... as you noted above). Though I love NetBSD and FreeBSD dearly, and I really get sick of some of the dumbed-down UI on Windows, I respect NT tremendously when it comes to running a reliable, industrial-strength OS. And I have developed that respect solely from watching the abuse it takes without incident, both on my test and development machines at work, and in the environments described above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 22:17:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA14407 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14401 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAB20513; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200515.WAB20513@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Marty Leisner" , "Craig Shaver" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 19 Jul 96 17:51:11 -0700. <199607200051.RAA04766@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:15:44 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Once again, let's move this off current.... >While working at M/Cast a couple of months ago, Win95 tended to >crash oh about 5 to 10 times a day during development of the >multimedia apps. > >A bad transceiver brought to its knees all the Win95 PCs. The sun >boxes and the FreeBSD seemed to happily continue working. > >I guess if you don't use Win95 for development is an okay platform. Who asked you to? Windows 95 is a multimedia home OS. It is not supposed to be a serious development platform. It crashes, sometimes often. Everybody knows it crashes. (In case it isn't clear, you can develop Windows 95 apps on Windows NT. You only need Windows 95 to test them.) We were talking about server OS's. We were talking about Windows NT. We were not discussing home gaming platforms. Windows 95 is not Windows NT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 19 22:19:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA14492 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14487 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20535; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607200517.WAA20535@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Marty Leisner" , "Craig Shaver" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 19 Jul 96 17:53:45 -0700. <199607200053.RAA04779@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:17:59 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>From The Desk Of "Marty Leisner" : >> I really get miffed hearing people laud the robustness of NT and >> OS/2...I found both pale to current copies of linux and FreeBSD. >Well, it depends on your point of view. Yes Linux and FreeBSD are probably >more robust than NT or OS/2 however from a DOS and Win3.1 point of view >NT is rock solid 8) >From a FreeBSD or NetBSD point of view, NT is still rock solid. "More robust" depends on how you define "robust", I guess. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 11:09:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00700 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00691 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zaxxon.cs.odu.edu (bowden@zaxxon.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.91]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA21861; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:08:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Amancio Hasty , Marty Leisner , Craig Shaver , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-Reply-To: <199607200515.WAB20513@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > We were talking about server OS's. We were talking about Windows NT. > We were not discussing home gaming platforms. Windows 95 is not > Windows NT. But don't worry, it will be. If you even try to convince me M$ isn't going to get to one os to have to devel./support/market, I am gonna have to get rude. I installed a 4.0 NT beta realease (build 13 something or other). If M$ wasn't going to fade out win95, why require all win95 approved binaries be NT compatible as well? NT is not a bad OS, it's not my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 11:28:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02886 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02876 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24177; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607201828.LAA24177@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jamie Bowden cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Amancio Hasty , Marty Leisner , Craig Shaver Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 20 Jul 96 14:08:29 -0400. Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:28:20 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: >> We were talking about server OS's. We were talking about Windows NT. >> We were not discussing home gaming platforms. Windows 95 is not >> Windows NT. >But don't worry, it will be. If you even try to convince me M$ isn't >going to get to one os to have to devel./support/market, I am gonna have >to get rude. I installed a 4.0 NT beta realease (build 13 something or >other). If M$ wasn't going to fade out win95, why require all win95 >approved binaries be NT compatible as well? Well, of course they're going to move back to one OS as soon as feasible. But that's probably at least two years out. Of course, that schedule can be accelerated slightly now that RAM prices are finally dropping again. In the mean time, Windows 95 runs on an 8MB machine (they say 4MB, but...), and NT doesn't come close. A business can easily buy a 64MB or 128MB box to run some serious server software off of (or even a 32MB box for a desktop NT development/admin machine), but you won't be seeing a majority of home PCs going home with 32MB of RAM probably until the end of the year, at the earliest. Plus, Windows 95 has to work with all that old legacy hardware out there, and NT doesn't worry so much about that. > NT is not a bad OS, it's not >my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your >GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. Well, I've had XFree86 crash or hang my NetBSD machine more than once, so I guess that goes for a lot of systems... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 11:36:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03667 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03662 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zaxxon.cs.odu.edu (bowden@zaxxon.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.91]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA22071; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Amancio Hasty , Marty Leisner , Craig Shaver Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-Reply-To: <199607201828.LAA24177@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > NT is not a bad OS, it's not > >my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your > >GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. > Well, I've had XFree86 crash or hang my NetBSD machine more than once, > so I guess that goes for a lot of systems... ;-) Um, no....I can boot my freebsd, netbsd, solaris, irix, etc. box to a usable command line. NT has a command line, but you can't boot to it (if memory is correct), and neither does NeXT. NeXT is kinda neat. Except for that whole 'GUI, GUI, and nothing but GUI' thing. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 11:42:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04659 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04640 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24236; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607201842.LAA24236@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jamie Bowden cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Amancio Hasty , Marty Leisner , Craig Shaver Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 20 Jul 96 14:35:41 -0400. Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:42:19 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your >> >GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. >> Well, I've had XFree86 crash or hang my NetBSD machine more than once, >> so I guess that goes for a lot of systems... ;-) >Um, no....I can boot my freebsd, netbsd, solaris, irix, etc. box to a >usable command line. NT has a command line, but you can't boot to it (if >memory is correct), and neither does NeXT. NeXT is kinda neat. Except >for that whole 'GUI, GUI, and nothing but GUI' thing. Ah, that's different than your GUI getting screwed. To me, that means a crash. Recovery is a separate thing because it generally doesn't start up under your normal NT kernel. But yes, this is a point I have lamented for quite some time. A real, useful NT command line accessible from "single-user" boot would be a Very Good Thing. On the other hand, you can approximate this by putting your boot partition on FAT instead of NTFS, and booting into DOS. But that only gets you part way there, since real NT utilities won't run that way. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 11:56:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06328 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (root@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net [206.169.44.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06319 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01629; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:55:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ulf Zimmermann" Message-Id: <960720115532.ZM1627@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:55:32 -0700 In-Reply-To: Jamie Bowden "Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES" (Jul 20, 2:35pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: Jamie Bowden , "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Amancio Hasty , Marty Leisner , Craig Shaver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 20, 2:35pm, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES > On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > > > NT is not a bad OS, it's not > > >my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your > > >GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. > > > Well, I've had XFree86 crash or hang my NetBSD machine more than once, > > so I guess that goes for a lot of systems... ;-) > > Um, no....I can boot my freebsd, netbsd, solaris, irix, etc. box to a > usable command line. NT has a command line, but you can't boot to it (if > memory is correct), and neither does NeXT. NeXT is kinda neat. Except > for that whole 'GUI, GUI, and nothing but GUI' thing. You can boot NeXT to a command line, sure. single user mode. > > Jamie > > I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. > >-- End of excerpt from Jamie Bowden Ulf. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 20 18:22:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28567 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28560 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14845(3)>; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:21:45 PDT Received: from gnu.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com) by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA22168; Sat, 20 Jul 96 21:21:51 EDT Received: by gnu.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09080; Sat, 20 Jul 96 21:21:50 EDT Message-Id: <9607210121.AA09080@gnu.mc.xerox.com> To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Amancio Hasty , Craig Shaver Subject: Re: Opinions? NT VS UNIX, NT SUCKS SOMETIMES In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:35:41 PDT." Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:21:48 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , you write: >On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >> > NT is not a bad OS, it's not >> >my prefered OS. It reminds me of NeXT in serious way : better hope your >> >GUI doesn't ever get screwed, cause if it does, so do you. > >> Well, I've had XFree86 crash or hang my NetBSD machine more than once, >> so I guess that goes for a lot of systems... ;-) When you say "crash" does the machine panic? If X hangs up, you can usually kill it off an rsh or on another virtual console... marty