From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 04:55:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19133 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goffer.research.megasoft.com (gw.research.megasoft.com [206.230.35.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA19128 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goffette.research.megasoft.com (goffette.research.megasoft.com [192.168.1.2]) by goffer.research.megasoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3-cmcurtin) with SMTP id HAA29437; Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by goffette.research.megasoft.com (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA10004; Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:50:22 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:50:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199608181150.HAA10004@goffette.research.megasoft.com> From: C Matthew Curtin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org To: webmaster@microsoft.com Subject: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers Reply-To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com X-Attribution: mattC Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk An excerpt from www.microsoft.com: Record Demand for Internet Explorer Overwhelms Download Servers Microsoft is increasing its download capacity to meet the unprecedented demand for Internet Explorer 3.0. Some 32,000 users registered the browser from midnight to 6 a.m. Tuesday, and some people reported slow download times or error messages. If you couldn't get through, try again! Let's see... that's about 5300 or so requests per hour, assuming a steady stream of them. Hmm. I notice the IE download page shows five servers in Redmond offering IE. So we're talking ~1100 requests per hour per machine. And *that* is overwhelming demand?! Hahahaahahah!! ftp.cdrom.com does that many *at the same time.* Maybe you folks at Microsoft should save yourself a lot of headaches and upgrade to an operating system that can actually deal with that kind of load: FreeBSD. Let's see... more stable, more powerful, and kicks the crap out of NT for networking. And it's free. Just remember to display the "Powered by FreeBSD" logo after your upgrades. Have a nice day! -- C Matthew Curtin MEGASOFT, LLC Director, Security Architecture I speak only for myself. Don't whine to anyone but me about anything I say. Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com http://research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 09:25:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04942 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.vale.com (post.vale.com [204.117.217.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA04936 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jaguar.vale.com by post.vale.com id aa27858; 19 Aug 96 11:24 CDT Received: by jaguar.vale.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB8DC2.139CB6F0@jaguar.vale.com>; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:32:17 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB8DC2.139CB6F0@jaguar.vale.com> From: Hal Snyder To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:32:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com wrote: ... >Let's see... that's about 5300 or so requests per hour, assuming a >steady stream of them. Hmm. I notice the IE download page shows five >servers in Redmond offering IE. >So we're talking ~1100 requests per hour per machine. And *that* is >overwhelming demand?! Hahahaahahah!! ftp.cdrom.com does that many >*at the same time.* Would it not be more fair to compare bytes per hour? Internet Exploder is a large file, probably much larger than the average download from ftp.cdrom.com. I'd sure like to see objective comparisons of FreeBSD v. NT networking, shorn of marketing hype and O/S holy war rhetoric. P.S.: Is there a way to query on-line current download stats for ftp.cdrom.com? I remember around the time Quake came out someone (David Greenman?) posted some impressive numbers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 14:19:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17639 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17628 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16788; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29868; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Hal Snyder cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers In-Reply-To: <01BB8DC2.139CB6F0@jaguar.vale.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Hal Snyder wrote: > >Let's see... that's about 5300 or so requests per hour, assuming a > >So we're talking ~1100 requests per hour per machine. And *that* is > > Would it not be more fair to compare bytes per hour? Internet Exploder > is a large file, probably much larger than the average download from > ftp.cdrom.com. Quake's pretty darn large, too. > I'd sure like to see objective comparisons of FreeBSD v. NT networking, > shorn of marketing hype and O/S holy war rhetoric. It wouldn't be fair to make a judgement based solely on how many bytes ftp.cdrom.com has coughted in a day compared to how many bytes whatever.microsoft.isn't-microsoft-a-top-level-domain-yet?.com unless there was a very large difference between the two. > Is there a way to query on-line current download stats for ftp.cdrom.com? > I remember around the time Quake came out someone (David Greenman?) posted > some impressive numbers. I believe it was 112MB transferred in one day. Had it been one 24-hour period, the numbers might well be even higher. I think you're right, and that was just after Quake came out and after a bug in wcarchives ftpd had been fixed that effectively allowed unlimited users on at a time. If noone else's saved the numbers, I've still got them in my INBOX, but I'm sure David Greenman has them, too. Plus much more current ones that include the load on the machine at the time, perhaps. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 15:48:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24996 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24988 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.24]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.Alpha.8/8.8.Alpha.8) with ESMTP id SAA11144 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07943 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:48:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: skipper.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:48:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: FreeBSD-Chat Subject: Disk drivers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought I might tell folks who are always complaining about expensive disks about a really good deal ... Hi Tech distributors in LA has a DSP3210D 2.1 GB drive for sale, for $299 each. This is a smallish 1.6 inch height, 3.5" wide drive, and seems to run great for me on FreeBSD. It comes with a differential scsi interface, but also includes a differential to scsi adapter. It's scsi-2 fast, and my dmesg show: (ncr0:1:0): "DEC DSP3210S 442A" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ncr0:1:0): Direct-Access sd1(ncr0:1:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 2047MB (4194303 512 byte sectors) sd1(ncr0:1:0): with 3045 cyls, 16 heads, and an average 86 sectors/track (ncr0:2:0): "DEC DSP3210D 442J" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2(ncr0:2:0): Direct-Access sd2(ncr0:2:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 2047MB (4194303 512 byte sectors) I have two of these. I'm using one of the differential converters to make s sub-scsi bus, connected to both of the drives. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 16:01:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25594 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25588 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA25132 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:00:25 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA22381; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199608192226.PAA22381@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Hal Snyder , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:20:31 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:26:14 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I remember around the time Quake came out someone (David Greenman?) posted >> some impressive numbers. > >I believe it was 112MB transferred in one day. Had it been one 24-hour >period, the numbers might well be even higher. I think you're right, and >that was just after Quake came out and after a bug in wcarchives ftpd had >been fixed that effectively allowed unlimited users on at a time. > >If noone else's saved the numbers, I've still got them in my INBOX, but >I'm sure David Greenman has them, too. Plus much more current ones that >include the load on the machine at the time, perhaps. I guess it's time for me to say something. The current 24 hour record (3am-3am) is 115GB which was set on August 10th. A new version of Linux Slackware was released around then. The totals were: Archive Name Bytes Transfered Files Transfered % Bytes %Files ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ------- ------ ... Total 115,746,632 K 459,339 100.0 100.0 459339 files/day is an _average_ of 19139 files per hour, or 5.316 files per second. 115GB/day is an average of 4.823GB/hour or about 1.34MB/sec. The actual peaks are about twice this and would have been sustained through most of the daytime hours (roughly 2.5MB/sec). I should point out that the machine still could have done more than this if the load had stayed as high through the early morning hours as it did during the daytime. I should also point out that wcarchive currently has only a 150Mhz P6 and that this is with FreeBSD 2.1.5. We have made major performance improvements since then (many of which have been inspired from things learned from wcarchive). Some estimates indicate that wcarchive may see as much as a 50% reduction in CPU time given the same load under FreeBSD 2.2...and we're still working on more improvements. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 18:47:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04348 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04343 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA11824; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:45:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Hal Snyder , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:20:31 EDT." Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:45:53 -0400 Message-ID: <11821.840505553@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote in message ID : > I believe it was 112MB transferred in one day. Had it been one 24-hour ^^ GB, please! Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 19:03:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05059 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05052; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00609; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27629; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:03:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Gary Palmer cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Hal Snyder , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers In-Reply-To: <11821.840505553@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek wrote in message ID > : > > I believe it was 112MB transferred in one day. Had it been one 24-hour > > ^^ > GB, please! Okay, well here's some more figuring. The original post said each Microsoft machine served ~1100 requests per hour. We'll give each request file as being 4.5MB. That's probably overgenerous, but that's O. K. wcarchive served in its 24hour day of fame 219_381 files. That's 9140 files per hour. It also served 112_436MB of data that day. That's 4684MB per hour. At 1100 files per hour, the average being 4.5MB, each MS server would have served 4950MB per hour. However, we're being somewhat generous to Microsoft. I would venture to say that the two totals are probably pretty close, although I suspect wcarchive would be ahead by about ~75MB, if we were to take the all-time peak hour of each. However, this of course has to be all speculation since we don't have the real numbers for the MS servers. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 20:13:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08957 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA08952 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id FAA11292; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:13:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id FAA01372; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:13:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA15151; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:12:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199608200312.FAA15151@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers To: hal@post.vale.com (Hal Snyder) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:12:26 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <01BB8DC2.139CB6F0@jaguar.vale.com> from Hal Snyder at "Aug 19, 96 11:32:16 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Hal Snyder wrote: > Is there a way to query on-line current download stats for ftp.cdrom.com? > I remember around the time Quake came out someone (David Greenman?) posted > some impressive numbers. The last record was 115 GB/day. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 02:24:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA12622 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA12616 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (196-7-192-169.iafrica.com [196.7.192.169]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id CAA12166 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01190 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:20:33 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199608200920.LAA01190@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft's overwhelmed FTP servers To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:20:31 +0200 (SAT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Aug 19, 96 10:03:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Okay, well here's some more figuring. > > The original post said each Microsoft machine served ~1100 requests per > hour. We'll give each request file as being 4.5MB. That's probably > overgenerous, but that's O. K. [...] Actually, the version of IE downloaded by default is nearly 8M. msie30m.exe 8057408 (already compressed) There are also a number of complementary packages, such as NetMeeting and Comic Chat, which users are encouraged to download during registration. Most of these are 1M plus. Since this is all free software, a 10M download session for many users is quite probable. Incidentally, the original estimate of ~1100 requests per hour was based on the number of users _registering_ the browser. Since users are taken to the registration pages only when IE is successfully installed, this doesn't take into account failed/aborted download attempts. And registration can be skipped. Downloading a 7.7M file with a Windows-based browser also tends to be error-prone for a variety of server-unrelated reasons. Beta versions of (not only) IE would quite frequently die in the attempt. (And lack 'reget' ability.) >From a marketing standpoint, I think MS would actually like to say, "Demand for IE has been overwhelming". (They are currently claiming in excess of one million copies of IE downloaded.) I'd certainly vote for FreeBSD over NT as an ftp server platform. But there is probably too much dubious information to establish anything much from the present case. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 21:33:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11122 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11109 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA04336 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:33:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:33:23 -0400 Message-ID: <4332.840602003@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk UNIX UNBOUND! SCO Provides FREE UNIX System Licenses To Students, Educators and UNIX Enthusiasts Around The World SCO Forum96, Santa Cruz, CA (August 19, 1996) -- In a move that empowers students, educators and UNIX system enthusiasts with free access to the world's most popular business computing environment, SCO today announced plans to provide a free license to use its popular UNIX systems, including SCO OpenServer and SCO UnixWare, to anyone in the world who wants to use them for educational and non-commercial use to enable the evaluation and understanding of UNIX systems. The bold move has far-reaching implications for the future of the UNIX platform and marks the stunning public debut of SCO's stewardship of the UNIX system. It also represents the first time in more than 20 years that the owner of UNIX technology has provided the operating system free of charge to the public. Alok Mohan, SCO's president and CEO, said, "This is only the second time in UNIX's 25-year history that the owner of the technology has made this offer. The last time this happened, a $60-billion-dollar industry was born." The UNIX system was in its infancy when AT&T Bell Labs gave it away for free to colleges and universities to help with research and development projects. Soon, thousands of students were learning to program on UNIX systems. After graduation, they took that knowledge into the corporate world, building a $60-billion-dollar industry. The legacy of AT&T's gift to universities includes the Internet, the World Wide Web, multiprocessing, and much more. Today, the UNIX system is the software engine that processes trillions of dollars' of business transactions around the world. "SCO believes it is time to return the favor," said Mohan, "and deliver the result of more than 20 years of technical innovation back to educators and students worldwide. With the explosive growth of the Internet and the breadth of development tools for UNIX systems available today, one can only imagine what this new generation will do with this open operating system platform." What the Students Will Get The availability of free UNIX system licenses begins with SCO OpenServer license, followed closely by a free SCO UnixWare license. The initial availability of a free SCO OpenServer license provides UNIX system enthusiasts with access to a high-end, commercial quality UNIX product that would normally be out of reach due to price constraints. Students, as well as professionals who use the UNIX system at work, now have an affordable means of running the UNIX platform at home, enabling them to create a home BBS or web site. What's In Free SCO OpenServer? With a Free SCO OpenServer license, users interested in UNIX technology have access to a fully functional, single user version of the SCO OpenServer Desktop System, which includes SCO Doctor Lite, and SCO ARCserve/Open Lite from Cheyenne, and the SCO OpenServer Development System. The SCO OpenServer Desktop is an advanced, single user UNIX operating system that delivers RISC workstation capabilities and performance on cost-effective Intel architecture platforms. The Desktop System integrates a powerful 32-bit, multitasking, X/Open UNIX system compliant operating system with networking, graphics, and Internet facilities. The Development System includes a set of state-of-the-art C compilers, debuggers, application programming interfaces, and libraries for developing applications. How to Get It Free SCO OpenServer license can be ordered and licensed via the Internet. To place a media order or acquire a license to use the software, go to: http://www3.sco.com/Products. Free SCO OpenServer is licensed for educational and non-commercial use. The license is free of charge. The product media, if desired, costs $19. About SCO SCO is the world's leading supplier of UNIX server operating systems, and a leading provider of client-integration software that integrates Windows PCs and other clients with UNIX servers from all major vendors. SCO Business Critical UNIX Servers run the critical, day-to-day operations of large branch organizations in retail, finance, telecom, and government, as well as corporate departments and small to medium-sized businesses of every kind. SCO sells and supports its products through a worldwide network of distributors, resellers, systems integrators, and OEMs. For more information, see SCO's WWW home page at: http://www.sco.com. # # # SCO, The Santa Cruz Operation, the SCO logo, SCO OpenServer, SCO UnixWare, and SCO Doctor are trademarks or registered trademarks of The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. in the USA and other countries. UNIX is a registered trademark in the United States an other countries, licensed exclusively through X/Open Company Limited. Cheyenne and ARCserve are registered trademarks of Cheyenne Software, Inc. All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of, and are used to identify products or services of, their respective owners. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone notice the difference tho? Last time this happened, you got the source code to. Anyone want to ask SCO for the UnixWare or OpenServer source code? :-) Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 22:33:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA19073 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19060; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id BAA09069; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Gary Palmer cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-Reply-To: <4332.840602003@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone notice the difference tho? Last time this happened, you got the > source code to. Anyone want to ask SCO for the UnixWare or OpenServer > source code? :-) > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD that have always been free...? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 00:21:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10990 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10955 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA08215 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:21:05 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA28566 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:21:05 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA20913 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:00:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199608210700.JAA20913@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:00:00 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at "Aug 21, 96 01:33:18 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > that have always been free...? Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the only right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot everywhere... (and good-quality free Unix clones). I'm surprised that the offer even includes a development system, something where UNIX vendors always believed they had to divorce it from the main system, and could make big bucks out of it. Note that they are also announcing Unixware, which is quite a more modern variant than their ancient Openserver SVR3.2 technology. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 00:24:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA11460 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11450 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA09539 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:38:00 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199608210708.QAA09539@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: 2.1.5 and SNAP CD's? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:38:00 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy people; just wondering if anyone has received the latest SNAP or 2.1.5 CD's on subscription yet? It's been a while since either release, but I haven't seen zip yet... -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 07:08:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA17701 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu (root@burdell.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA17681 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cleon.cc.gatech.edu (viren@cleon.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.9.12]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA01951; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from viren@localhost) by cleon.cc.gatech.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA00305; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:07:48 -0400 (EDT) From: viren@cc.gatech.edu (Viren R. Shah) Message-Id: <199608211407.KAA00305@cleon.cc.gatech.edu> To: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Plush toys! :) References: <199608210611.PAA17535@al.imforei.apana.org.au> Organization: Klique of the Incorrigible Stupified Snarks Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You write: > Gday. > Its been awhile since the ordering etc.. has anyone seen/got > /been billed for their plush toy? I just received my plushie last friday. I had ordered it a couple of days after they were first announced (ordered thru email). It takes nearly a month to get here thru second class mail. Also, they don't bill your credit card until they mail it. > Just curious.. > Peter PS: Note of warning -- don't give it to a small child. It has pointy parts and is easily broken (specifically the trident ). Viren From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 07:17:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18298 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ColState.EDU (earth.ColState.EDU [168.26.193.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18289 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.csg.peachnet.edu ([168.26.193.32]) by earth.ColState.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA07665 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CCMAIN/SpoolDir by mercury.csg.peachnet.edu (Mercury 1.21); 21 Aug 96 10:20:01 EST Received: from SpoolDir by CCMAIN (Mercury 1.30); 21 Aug 96 10:19:42 EST From: "Christian" Organization: Columbus State Univ., Columbus, Ga. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:19:34 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <931E8E2A8A@mercury.csg.peachnet.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If I remember correctly, to get ibcs2 emulation to work under freebsd you had to have a previously running SCO system to get the shared libs from. Wouldn't this facilitate the process of getting ahold of these libs? ____________ Christian Plazas Columbus State University, Columbus,GA 706.568.2063 ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 08:02:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23047 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23031 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA26919; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:02:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:02:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199608211502.JAA26919@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Christian" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-Reply-To: <931E8E2A8A@mercury.csg.peachnet.edu> References: <931E8E2A8A@mercury.csg.peachnet.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If I remember correctly, to get ibcs2 emulation to work under freebsd > you had to have a previously running SCO system to get the shared > libs from. Wouldn't this facilitate the process of getting ahold of > these libs? *IF* the product in question needs them and uses the same shlibs. In any case, that's why I ordered my 'personal' copy, so I could have a legal copy of the the SCO shlibs to use for programs which might need them. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 08:31:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26961 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.utexas.edu (root@mail.cs.utexas.edu [128.83.139.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26953 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oink.cs.utexas.edu (miker@oink.cs.utexas.edu [128.83.138.84]) by mail.cs.utexas.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA27813; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:30:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Hung Michael Nguyen Received: by oink.cs.utexas.edu (8.7.1/Client-1.4) id KAA05525; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:30:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199608211530.KAA05525@oink.cs.utexas.edu> Subject: Re: 2.1.5 and SNAP CD's? To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:30:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199608210708.QAA09539@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Aug 21, 96 04:38:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Howdy people; just wondering if anyone has received the latest SNAP or 2.1.5 > CD's on subscription yet? It's been a while since either release, but > I haven't seen zip yet... Got mine (2.1.5) on Tuesday. No time to install it though. Damn. Mike. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 08:37:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA27997 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (root@skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27992 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA14213 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:35:26 +0100 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (actually host tees) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:35:09 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA01673; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:34:17 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ipfw vs ipfilter? References: <199608152149.OAA01513@phaeton.artisoft.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 21 Aug 1996 16:34:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:49:35 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <57enl0u4xz.fsf@elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > > (do we have to continue to embaress ourselves about how well we know how > > > to program in real BASIC ?:-) > > > > Didn't all real hackers start out by programming TRS-80's and Apple IIe's > > back in '78/'79? I've still got some of my Applesoft and 6502 programs. > > I just don't have a computer to run them on. > > Commodore PET and Ohio Scientific computers with chicklet keyboards and > no more than 4k of RAM, and only those after their South-West Technical > Products 6800's with S100 busses finally gave up the ghost. I started out on Commodore PET's too, or it's sister the CBM. Then got a BBC computer, really nice machine that, still got it gathering dust in a cupboard somewhere. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 12:31:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA18562 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA18546 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:31:29 -0700 (PDT) From: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06346; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03233; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199608211933.PAA03233@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Mailer: slnr v.2.13 as ported to FreeBSD To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In Email, J Wunsch wrote: > As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > > that have always been free...? > > Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the only > right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot everywhere... Of course, they're also opening themselves upto some potential embarrasment... I'm sure lots of potential (WordPerfect) customers were really impressed when Corel couldn't even _GIVE_ the thing away. -- -- tIM...HOEk Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? NEVER! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 16:13:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11506 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11496 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id TAA11524; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:13:33 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:13:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199608212313.TAA11524@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199608210700.JAA20913@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:00:00 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when >> there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and >> NetBSD that have always been free...? > Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the > only right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot > everywhere... (and good-quality free Unix clones). Need I remind you that Micro$oft owns 15% of SCO? I'd say that it's pretty clear that they're just trying to make SCO a household UNIX. And remember, lots of management droids shudder in fear at the concept of free software, so will likely look more towards SCO than FreeBSD, Linux, Hurd, or other truely free OS's. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu The number you have reached is an imaginary number. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 17:13:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18295 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18267 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id SAA24450; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:12:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199608220012.SAA24450@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:12:52 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199608212313.TAA11524@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Aug 21, 96 07:13:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Need I remind you that Micro$oft owns 15% of SCO? > > I'd say that it's pretty clear that they're just trying to make SCO a > household UNIX. And remember, lots of management droids shudder in > fear at the concept of free software, so will likely look more towards > SCO than FreeBSD, Linux, Hurd, or other truely free OS's. Possibly. On the other hand, FreeBSD et al have not done much to advertise themselves to the unwashed masses either. I realize that FreeBSD Inc. is pretty much a shoestring operation run by volunteers, but it would help to have someone pushing it into the face of magazine reviewers, etc. Magazine reviews, especially positive ones, make for excellent advertising. Magazine articles from the user community never hurt, either. Credits from authors of computer books, such as W. Richard Stevens' mention in _TCP/IP Illustrated_, vol 3., etc. ad nauseum. People can't "buy" what they don't know exists, even if it costs them little or nothing. ;^) At my "day" job, we do embedded programming for M68K targets running VxWorks. We use HP 9000/712 workstations and GNU tools, including gcc/g++, gdb, emacs, and cvs. We needed the ability to take our development system on the road, so I and a co-worker ported the in-house development tools to FreeBSD. We obtained a pair of Gateway Solo pentium laptops, loaded FreeBSD and the development system on them, and now our engineers are able to carry our entire development environment "into the field." We are even able to do remote CVS updates and commits across PPP links. I've been planning on writing an article about this for _Embedded Systems_ magazine, as soon as I dig out from my current stack of work work, contract work, and yard work. It helps that I'm married to a very talented technical writer. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 17:27:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20385 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (pop01.ny.us.ibm.net [165.87.194.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20376 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA18054; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:27:15 GMT Message-Id: <199608220027.AAA18054@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 20:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: SCO announces FREE unix for non-commercial use!! Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Check out http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm SCO is going to be giving UNIX at shipping cost for non-commercial use. It seems mostly targetted at schools and students. This should certainly put a new spin in the OS game. Any picks on how this may influence the free Unix world? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 17:40:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA21957 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21952 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.85]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA78056 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:36:44 +1000 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:40:24 +1000 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-Reply-To: <199608211933.PAA03233@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In Email, J Wunsch wrote: > > As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > > > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > > > that have always been free...? > > Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the only > > right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot everywhere... I thought Microsoft had a controlling interest in SCO? Carl. -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 17:50:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22856 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22793 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:20:19 GMT From: James@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Reply-To: James@jraynard.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <1591@jraynard.demon.co.uk> To: scrappy@ki.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 12 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message "Marc G. Fournier" writes: > > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > that have always been free...? Talking of new arrivals on the free OS scene, has anyone looked at hurd yet? I notice version 0.0 was announced about a week ago (something like 56MB to FTP down for the binary version, if I remember correctly). -- James Raynard From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 18:04:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24430 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24419 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA19237; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:03:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Barnacle Wes cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:12:52 MDT." <199608220012.SAA24450@xmission.xmission.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:03:58 -0700 Message-ID: <19235.840675838@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Possibly. On the other hand, FreeBSD et al have not done much to > advertise themselves to the unwashed masses either. I realize that > FreeBSD Inc. is pretty much a shoestring operation run by volunteers, > but it would help to have someone pushing it into the face of magazine > reviewers, etc. It's mostly just a question of time. FreeBSD, Inc. is actually just David and myself, and both of us have been far too tied up with trying to handle the technical/release engineering side lately. No time has really been available for writing nifty magazine articles or pitching the press, as important as I know those things are. :-( To me, that says it's probably time to recruit some additional help if we're to have any hope of breaking out into the mainstream press. If you look at the existing core team, you won't see a group of rabid publisher/speaker types there, and aside from the occasional talk I'm willing to give myself (and that's always like pulling teeth for whomever's organizing it - I'm a reluctant public speaker at best), everyone pretty much keeps their heads down on the technical issues. > and commits across PPP links. I've been planning on writing an article > about this for _Embedded Systems_ magazine, as soon as I dig out from > my current stack of work work, contract work, and yard work. It helps > that I'm married to a very talented technical writer. ;^) Excellent! That's exactly the kind of user-participation we need. Anyone else wishing to, *cough cough*, emulate Wes here more than has my encouragement to do so! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 01:22:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26792 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26709 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA24396 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:21:07 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA23633 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:21:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA25004 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:24:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199608220724.JAA25004@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:24:06 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from Carl Makin at "Aug 22, 96 10:40:24 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Carl Makin wrote: > > > Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the only > > > right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot everywhere... > > I thought Microsoft had a controlling interest in SCO? Is 15 % that are almost forgotten by Billyboy really a controlling interest? Cheap&dirty magazines often print battles between Microsnot types and ``UNIX'' types, and for them, Unix quite often is also SCO. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 05:22:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10108 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10103 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02427; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:23:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Management vs Free Software In-Reply-To: <199608212313.TAA11524@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And remember, lots of management droids shudder in > fear at the concept of free software, so will likely look more towards > SCO than FreeBSD, Linux, Hurd, or other truely free OS's. > I'm trying to get my boss to subscribe to Walnut Creek CDs. That way he will feel like he is paying for something. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 09:25:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25461 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (root@skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA25447 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by skiddaw.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA05425 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:24:47 +0100 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (actually host tees) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:24:26 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id RAA00666; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:23:31 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curio References: <20571.840677048@time.cdrom.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 22 Aug 1996 17:23:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:24:08 -0700 Message-ID: <57pw4je6bh.fsf@elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > How long does it take you to do a build of just the kernel? > > Time to build GENERIC is: > > 215.46 real 185.40 user 16.25 sys Hmm, I remember when it used to take 1/2 hour and I was so impressed that my 486 with 16Mb was so fast, I bet the kernel was much smaller in those days too. Scary thing is, we're only talking 2 years ago. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 09:50:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27537 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27524 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by covina.lightside.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0utcx9-0006kPC; Thu, 22 Aug 96 09:49 PDT Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:49:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-Reply-To: <199608212313.TAA11524@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > >> From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > >> there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and > >> NetBSD that have always been free...? > > Well, this is nevertheless an interesting action, and perhaps the > > only right thing they can do, now being faced with MicroSnot > > everywhere... (and good-quality free Unix clones). Hey, I don't care if FreeBSD is better, if SCO is *free* for students, I'd be happy to try it out. Right now I use FreeBSD for my "serious" Internet access and development, but own a copy of Solaris/x86 (academic discount $120) because I use Solaris/SPARC at work and sometimes it's nice to have a "supported" platform for Java development, etc... SCO may be a crummy SVR3 but I want to see it myself before I write it off completely, right? If nothing else, I'll know to be thankful for what FreeBSD offers! :-) Anyway, thanks to whoever pointed out the URL... ---Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 15:56:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA26649 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.vale.com (post.vale.com [204.117.217.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26594 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jaguar.vale.com by post.vale.com id aa08419; 21 Aug 96 15:19 CDT Received: by jaguar with Microsoft Mail id <01BB8F74.DF125700@jaguar>; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:24:40 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB8F74.DF125700@jaguar> From: Hal Snyder To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: FW: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:24:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > that have always been free...? What else would you use to talk to Dialogic cards or low-end SQL servers? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 17:32:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09916 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA09899 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29462; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:30:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Paul Richards cc: chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: ipfw vs ipfilter? In-reply-to: Your message of "21 Aug 1996 16:34:16 BST." <57enl0u4xz.fsf@elsevier.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:30:51 -0400 Message-ID: <29457.840760251@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards wrote in message ID <57enl0u4xz.fsf@elsevier.co.uk>: > Then got a BBC computer, really nice machine that, still got it > gathering dust in a cupboard somewhere. What I liked about the ``Beeb'' was the fact it came with so many expansion opions (there was even direct I/O ports to the memory and address bus if I remember). It booted (from ROM) into a very reasonable BASIC too. Nice machine. Pity it wasn't more popular. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 19:06:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20040 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20035 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id WAA19552; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:06:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Hal Snyder cc: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: FW: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm In-Reply-To: <01BB8F74.DF125700@jaguar> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Hal Snyder wrote: > As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > From the last time I used SCO...why would anyone want it, when > > there are *better* (IMHO!) Unix variants out like FreeBSD and NetBSD > > that have always been free...? > > What else would you use to talk to Dialogic cards or low-end SQL servers? > I may be taking some bait here...but ... low-end SQL servers? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 20:59:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25674 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (pop01.ny.us.ibm.net [165.87.194.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25655 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id DAA50104; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 03:58:58 GMT Message-Id: <199608230358.DAA50104@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 23:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FW: http://www3.sco.com/Company/Announce/p081996e.htm Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:06:13 -0400 (EDT), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > I may be taking some bait here...but ... low-end SQL servers? SQL vendors such as Informix and Oracle have scaled down versions of their engines. These have a significantly reduced price compared to their "workgroup" or "enterprise" engines. By the same token they may lack manny of the features of those more advanced/pricier engines. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 21:59:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28233 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28196 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29157; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:59:14 +1000 Received: from orion.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id OAA13967; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:28:21 +1000 Received: by orion.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-0.3) id OAA24521; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:30:06 +1000 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:30:06 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199608230430.OAA24521@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk cc: syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curio X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: >"Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > >> > How long does it take you to do a build of just the kernel? >> >> Time to build GENERIC is: >> >> 215.46 real 185.40 user 16.25 sys > >Hmm, I remember when it used to take 1/2 hour and I was so impressed >that my 486 with 16Mb was so fast, I bet the kernel was much smaller >in those days too. Obviously we're not adding enough bloat! :-) We need to add tons more stuff to the kernel. I reckon we should add telnetd, innd, pgp and, say, quake. That should just about do it. >Scary thing is, we're only talking 2 years ago. Yeah, 2 years ago the Internet had just hit the hump of its spectacular decline. Or spectacular ascent, if you are an AOLer. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 22:39:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29311 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA29304 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.85]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA56118 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:35:18 +1000 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:38:58 +1000 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curio In-Reply-To: <199608230430.OAA24521@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: > Hmm, I remember when it used to take 1/2 hour and I was so impressed > that my 486 with 16Mb was so fast, I bet the kernel was much smaller > in those days too. I can remember FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 taking in excess of 6 hours to do a kernel build on a 386sx16 with 8mb RAM (4mb on ISA cards. :-) Needless to say I didn't run X! Carl. -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 23 00:21:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03296 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03289 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA04609 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:21:15 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA17838 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:21:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA29250 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:59:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199608230659.IAA29250@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Curio To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:59:57 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Carl Makin at "Aug 23, 96 03:38:58 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Carl Makin wrote: > I can remember FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 taking in excess of 6 hours to do a kernel > build on a 386sx16 with 8mb RAM (4mb on ISA cards. :-) But that's certainly due to the ISA RAM. My 386BSD 0.1 system on a 386sx16 with 6 MB RAM built the entire X11R5 tree in slightly more than 24 hours. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 23 17:31:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01423 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01392 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08980; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:33:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:33:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FTP Installation from ftp.freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is ftp.cdrom.org really busy or is my 3com card acting up? I am attempting a ftp install of 2.1.5 and I am only getting around 1.5KB/s. Our network should be very quiet now at 8:00pm on a friday night. Thanks ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | WebSerf of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Sciences Center of West Virginia University | This Space For Rent WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 00:32:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA13895 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA13890 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA20505 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA12570; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199608240730.AAA12570@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jeremy Sigmon cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTP Installation from ftp.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:33:53 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:30:30 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is ftp.cdrom.org really busy or is my 3com card acting up? >I am attempting a ftp install of 2.1.5 and I am only getting around >1.5KB/s. Our network should be very quiet now at 8:00pm on a friday >night. Thanks Your network might be quiet, but MCI's certainly isn't. 8pm on a Friday is one of the most busy times of the entire week. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 12:09:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23403 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23397 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12878; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199608241908.NAA12878@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Doug Wellington Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 In-Reply-To: <9608241836.AA04073@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> References: <9608241836.AA04073@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Moved to -chat ] > >Most of these languages weren't written up in the press on a daily > >basis, and touted as the 'best of breed' in programming languages. > >Something will come along that's better in the future, but for now Java > >is *the* language. > > Just like Coke is *the* soft drink, MacDonalds is *the* burger, Baywatch > is *the* tv show, Femstat 3 is *the* cure? (Should I go on?) Can we > only like things when the media tells us to? (And ALL things the media > tells us to?) Why do we attach ourselves to such ridiculousness? Because standards are 'a good thing'. And, w/out standards we wouldn't have jobs since our education would be meaningless. > (I thought we, the UNIX world, were about elegant solutions that work > hand in hand with other tools we have, and not about flavors of the > day!) [EEEEK, I hope I don't sound toooooo zealous there...] Is it possible that Java is an elegant solution, or is not possible if it like by the masses. > >Java is C++ w/out pointers, w/out multiple inheritance, and the ability > >to run on multiple platforms w/out recompile. It's the 'ultimate' in > >portability, although M$ and others are trying to muddy the waters by > >making 'platform specific' extensions for it. > > Hmmm... When *I* want portability, I look to Python and TCL... *YUK* I like neither. I think in C, and Java is *easy* for me to program in because I can leverage most of my C knowledge. I dislike TCL very much (haven't looked at Python), and do like Perl. This statement alone implies that people will do different things, but for now Java has the mindshare, and it's not all-together undeserved. What I *disklike* is Sun making it proprietary after touting how open they were going to be about it. > There are always trade-offs, and I don't believe that there is any way > Java will be consistant across platforms (like Unix itself - "of > course it's standard, but we have modified it to make our version just > a little better..."). Hmmm, I wonder if we can extend autoconf for > interpretting Java on the fly? Sure it will be, as long as you don't throw an interface on it. And, if you do there is *NO* language/API that is consistant across platforms, although Java is the closest I've seen. (When using Netscape, a Java applet on a Windows box looks like one on a Sun, which is like the applet on a FreeBSD box, etc...) You can't do that in *any* existing language/API that I'm aware of. > >> Do we really want to be dependent upon some server somewhere for what are > >> really just throw-away viewers? > >Whose 'we' Kemosabe'? :) > > ME, for one... "We" in general... The Public(tm) is too ignorant to > know any better, so since I'm the duly elected "daemon's advocate", I > represent all those who aren't here... ;-) You and Terry should form the 'I know better than the public' group. The 'Public(tm)' is smarter than you give them credit for. My wife is one of the 'Public(tm)' who you claim is too ignorant to know better and the fact of the matter is the 'We' that you claim to represent haven't give the public anything to get their job done, so they've went with the 'tainted/tasteless' solution that M$'s delivers. Something is better than nothing. > We're really getting to the big point that I see, and that is the fact > that there are two very distinct areas 1) extension of the global www 2) locally controlled ("secure"?) nets. > As for the www, I personally > do not want to be transferring applets from parts unknown, even if I have > a supposedly robust vm running on my local machine. Then disable Java in your browser. That's your business. > And about the local stuff, I wonder if we wouldn't be better served > with server side cgi scripting...? CGI doesn't cut the mustard. You can't put a nice front-end on a back-end CGI script, and don't even begin to tell me that the current crop of 'fill in the blank fields' is nice. CGI is too limiting. > One focal point, one script, central control, etc, and > if those PC's on everyone's desk are so "low powered", shouldn't we be > doing the hard work on the server? That's one of the things that Java allows you to do is a more 'portable' fashion. > Or if we have sufficient power on > the local PC, shouldn't they be running a dedicated (efficient?) viewer > program instead of running an interpreter? They have enough to run a viewer, but they don't have the 'oomph' and/or resources to run a full database. By using Java, you have an extensible 'viewer' that can run custom applets to display/enter/modify the data. With CGI you're pretty much stuck, and with the current 'standard' of using M$ you are limited in your choices of platforms to use on both the remote and client end. > And while I'm on this track, > if we ARE on a local secure net, why not run a more full-fledged, more > powerful interpreter like perl, python or tcl that already exists, instead > of waiting for some limited Java interpreter? Because they're not any more 'powerful' than Java, and there is still the issue of security. If you're on a secure net, there is still the issue of internal security. Java helps this. > >For those zillions of programmers who have been doing Win32 programming > >(aka, the API of the day), Java is a way out. > > Ah, so Java is the answer to the Win32 blues...! ;-) Visual C++ 4.2 > doesn't support win32s anymore, so we know there is a way out. Win32 != Win32s. Win32 is the 32-bit API for windows. > Microsoft > has already shown us the way... ;-) (Seriously though, I think we'd all > be better off honing our knowledge of the MFC instead of trying to switch > languages...) MFC/Win32 == API/day. It changes about every 3 months, in often non-backward compatible (*sarcasm* but it's better now) ways. There are horror stories of programs that compiled w/out warnings from one revision to the next which refuse to run because the changes are small enough to be un-noticed by the development tools, but large enough to give the programmers grief. > >Java is much bigger than the WWW, especially if Sun has it's way. > > And ActiveX will be bigger than both Sun and the WWW if Microsoft > has its way... [shrug] ActiveX has no security, and ActiveX is dependant on some patents that IBM owns. Microsoft's license to these patents expires at the end of the month, so we'll see what happens with ActiveX in the near future. In any case, it's obvious to me that you know very little about Java (as I admit I know little about Python). You need to do a bit more research on it before throwing it out as stupid. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 15:49:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06520 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06510 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03465; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:47:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Doug Wellington cc: Nate Williams , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, didier@aida.org, terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:14:17 PDT." <9608242214.AA04621@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:47:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3462.840926831@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected back to -chat again] > Previously: > >[ Moved to -chat ] > > Hmmm, don't know from -chat... And I'm not about to sign up for yet > another mail list... But it BELONGS there, damnit! :-( If something is turning into a thread from hell, as this whole Java thing did about 5 messages ago, then you should either take it to private email or roll it over to -chat where it belongs. Despite frequent attempts to turn it into the email equivalent of #hottub, the -hackers mailing list is supposed to be for discussion of FreeBSD hacking and development, this thread does not match that description so please at least have the courtesy to move to -chat when asked. Moving something *back* from -chat when it was already rightfully moved there is just adding insult to injury, and grounds for having a filter slapped on you if repeated. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 22:02:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA05176 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA05161 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA27269; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:31:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199608250501.OAA27269@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:31:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199608241908.NAA12878@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Aug 24, 96 01:08:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > Sure it will be, as long as you don't throw an interface on it. And, if > you do there is *NO* language/API that is consistant across platforms, > although Java is the closest I've seen. (When using Netscape, a Java > applet on a Windows box looks like one on a Sun, which is like the applet on a > FreeBSD box, etc...) You can't do that in *any* existing language/API > that I'm aware of. Then you haven't used Tcl/Tk. You can add the Macintosh to the list too, for both. The point here is that platform independence is a matter of sweat, not of any inherent virtue or flaw in any given language. If a crossplatform language is to serve its users well, it should be relatively orthogonal, extensible, and not unduly complex. It should also abstract the machine interface sufficiently to be usable, without being trapped in the smallest-subset mold. Unfortunately, Java was the wrong language, chosen by the wrong people, in a stiuation of considerable desperation and who-only-knows what sort of political and financial climate. What can be made of the sow's ear is still up in the air, but I think most of the criticisms levelled at Java could be reworded and directed at most other languages. One observation worth considering is that it's not usually the first into the marketplace to succeed, but the first serious followup. I don't think we've seen this followup yet. For it to win any favour with anyone other than the hyperbolists it's going to have to be more than someone's pet language dressed up for the parade. > Nate -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 22:13:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA06072 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA06050 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04493; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:12:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:31:38 +0930." <199608250501.OAA27269@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:12:52 -0700 Message-ID: <4490.840949972@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Then you haven't used Tcl/Tk. You can add the Macintosh to the list too, for > both. > > The point here is that platform independence is a matter of sweat, not > of any inherent virtue or flaw in any given language. Java also lacks a "viewer" for any of the *BSD or Linux variants. With Tcl/TK, a very nice one is provided called "wish" :-) But I still think that the two languages were designed for very different things. Tcl is excellent for instrumenting an existing application, say for adding a macro language to an existing word processor application with minimal perturberation of code. AFAIK, nothing like that is possible with Java and so that'll certainly be one area where Tcl holds a clear and obvious advantage. On the other hand, we're all supposed to be writing generic code with IDL interface glue so that we can instrument the GUI from a completely separate application anyway. :-) I wonder how that free CORBA implementation is coming along. Jordan