From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 06:10:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA03933 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 06:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA03899; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 06:10:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612221410.GAA03899@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: mailing list archives To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 06:10:09 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, marcs@znep.com, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612220322.TAA21892@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 21, 96 07:22:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > > >> Marc Slemko wrote: > >> > > >> > And still speaking of archives, where can the raw archives be ftped from? > >> > >> freefall.freebsd.org > >> /home/mail/archive/ > > > >Not as anonymous ftp.. :-) We should probably get them back online > >soon. I think there's more than enough disk space on wcarchive; about > >175MB since I just house-cleaned the SNAP (which is superceded by > >2.2-ALPHA) and 2.1.5-RELEASE trees. I wonder what the best way of > >getting them across is going to be though... rsync? > > I sure hate the ONE-BIG-FILE archive format. I find it almost entirely > useless. If we were to change it to a one-per-file scheme, it wouldn't be > such a big effort to keep the stuff in sync (hint: I very much dislike > copying several giant multi-megabyte files over to wcarchive continuously). how about: we switch from the one-big file format to monthly files named freebsd-questions-199611, for example each month a new file is started for each list we store the files on wcarchive as well as freefall (or should they be in spatter?) we can rsync the newest file from freefall/spatter to wcarchive each night. (the older files should not change ;) ?? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 10:11:26 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA14779 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from moonpie.w8hd.org (root@moonpie.w8hd.org [198.252.159.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA14771; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from moonpie.w8hd.org (kimc@moonpie.w8hd.org [198.252.159.14]) by moonpie.w8hd.org (8.8.4/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA13040; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 13:11:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 13:11:12 -0500 (EST) From: Kim Culhan To: Stefan Esser cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How many worldstones ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Stefan Esser wrote: > On Dec 21, kimc@w8hd.org (Kim Culhan) wrote: > > > > The 'make world' is still running here with Steve's patch to /bin/sh. > > > > The make world run has been taking about 4.5 hours including everything, > > no arguments supplied to make, how does this compare with others ? > > You give no information on your system configuration. > > I see the following on my ASUS SP3G (amd486/133) with NCR SCSI: > > 16916.77 real 12999.49 user 2843.35 sys My system is an ASUS P55TP4XE with a 2940W controller and narrow drive. Lets see how it does now that its running -current with tagged command queueing enabled. kim -- kimc@w8hd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 16:43:44 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA29457 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA29452 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA23169; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:42:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612230042.QAA23169@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, marcs@znep.com, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Dec 1996 06:10:09 PST." <199612221410.GAA03899@freefall.freebsd.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:42:35 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >David Greenman wrote: >> >> >> Marc Slemko wrote: >> >> > >> >> > And still speaking of archives, where can the raw archives be ftped from? >> >> >> >> freefall.freebsd.org >> >> /home/mail/archive/ >> > >> >Not as anonymous ftp.. :-) We should probably get them back online >> >soon. I think there's more than enough disk space on wcarchive; about >> >175MB since I just house-cleaned the SNAP (which is superceded by >> >2.2-ALPHA) and 2.1.5-RELEASE trees. I wonder what the best way of >> >getting them across is going to be though... rsync? >> >> I sure hate the ONE-BIG-FILE archive format. I find it almost entirely >> useless. If we were to change it to a one-per-file scheme, it wouldn't be >> such a big effort to keep the stuff in sync (hint: I very much dislike >> copying several giant multi-megabyte files over to wcarchive continuously). > > how about: > > we switch from the one-big file format to monthly files > named freebsd-questions-199611, for example > each month a new file is started for each list This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-large for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these problems. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 18:05:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA03724 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 18:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA03712 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 18:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA12054; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 18:04:49 -0800 (PST) To: dg@root.com cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , marcs@znep.com, jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:42:35 PST." <199612230042.QAA23169@root.com> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 18:04:49 -0800 Message-ID: <12050.851306689@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-large > for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the > contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these > problems. Except then we'll almost certainly run out of inodes in the target directory sooner rather than later. Just judging by the mailstats output and calculating about 90 days ahead, the math does not look promising. :-) Sigh. Face it, we need a database. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 20:26:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA14919 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA14910 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id VAA07535; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:26:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.ampr.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA15744; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:26:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:26:17 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@alive.ampr.ab.ca To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-Reply-To: <12050.851306689@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since all standard storage formats for mail archives have problems when you are dealing with this volume, how about for now just making a snapshot of the archives as they are right now available somewhere in whatever form they may be stored in. I don't care if I need to ftp a 500 meg file; that's well under an hour if it is coming from wcarchive. Any format will be unmanagable for most people due to sheer volume. If you know what you are looking for, less is a pretty good search utility. On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-large > > for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the > > contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these > > problems. > > Except then we'll almost certainly run out of inodes in the target > directory sooner rather than later. Just judging by the mailstats > output and calculating about 90 days ahead, the math does not look > promising. :-) > > Sigh. Face it, we need a database. :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 20:48:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA15682 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA15676 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA04163; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:05 -0800 (PST) To: Marc Slemko cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:26:17 MST." Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:05 -0800 Message-ID: <4159.851316485@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Erm. I wasn't exactly kidding about the idea of putting things into a simplistic database of some sort. Since all *standard* storage formats suck, and since we have, from the very beginning, also been archiving this stuff without a whole heck of a lot of regard to how we might actually *use* the information, doesn't this suggest a new approach to the problem? We archive all this mail just *in case* someone might use it, yet we make almost no provisions for really making it all that easy to search and view threads of discussion, nor do we provide a meaningful way of aging and deleting (or archiving) older information. Databases do all those things, and they let you easily come up with new ways of viewing the data as you collect user feedback on what's useful and what's not. Databases also, in most cases, deal with *large* amounts of data efficiently. Seems like our needs to the tenth decimal place. The only really big question is - how could we implement something like this? There's gotta be at least one database weenie in the crowd here! :-) Jordan > Since all standard storage formats for mail archives have problems when > you are dealing with this volume, how about for now just making a snapshot > of the archives as they are right now available somewhere in whatever form > they may be stored in. I don't care if I need to ftp a 500 meg file; > that's well under an hour if it is coming from wcarchive. > > Any format will be unmanagable for most people due to sheer volume. If > you know what you are looking for, less is a pretty good search utility. > > On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-larg e > > > for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the > > > contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these > > > problems. > > > > Except then we'll almost certainly run out of inodes in the target > > directory sooner rather than later. Just judging by the mailstats > > output and calculating about 90 days ahead, the math does not look > > promising. :-) > > > > Sigh. Face it, we need a database. :-) > > > > Jordan > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 21:15:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA16978 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA16971 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id WAA09770; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:15:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.ampr.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA15974; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:14:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:14:55 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@alive.ampr.ab.ca To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-Reply-To: <4159.851316485@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Erm. I wasn't exactly kidding about the idea of putting things into a > simplistic database of some sort. Since all *standard* storage > formats suck, and since we have, from the very beginning, also been > archiving this stuff without a whole heck of a lot of regard to how we > might actually *use* the information, doesn't this suggest a new > approach to the problem? I think a database is a good idea and am even thinking about toying with various different programs iff I get some data to work with. However, I can't name any standard database that would be useful to most people. My point is that I don't see any reason why the format it is stored in has to be easily managable by the mystic "most people" because most people will be accessing it via some frontend, likely web based, anyway. The one big file approach isn't necessarily any more or less managable than the lotsa little file approach as long as the frontend (and storage behind it, etc.) that people use to access it can deal with it. It is certainly true that the amount of data archived from the mailing lists is reasonably small when looked at from a database person's perspective. > We archive all this mail just *in case* someone might use it, yet we > make almost no provisions for really making it all that easy to search > and view threads of discussion, nor do we provide a meaningful way of The biggest thing I want right now is to be able to search on keywords (just like the current web seach script does) but, once I find an article I want, be able to look at the whole thread with one keystroke. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 22:05:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA19786 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from revelstone.jvm.com (revelstone.jvm.com [207.98.213.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA19781 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-109.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.109]) by revelstone.jvm.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA03968; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:05:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199612230605.BAA03968@revelstone.jvm.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 01:04:55 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: mailing list archives Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:05 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >The only really big question is - how could we implement something like >this? There's gotta be at least one database weenie in the crowd >here! :-) Do any of the existing databases for FreeBSD may be good for this? Postgres or Msql? If none of them do what you need I could work on something. I would need some help though. Basically I could work on the file handling of the database (storing data, indexing, searching, etc). What I would need help with how to interface properly it to an HTTP server, and on some UNIX details (how to make this database a running background process which can be accessed from all sessions). If you can find people who can give me some hints/help with what I mentioned and if it is ok to have this take two or three monts then I volunteer for the project. I have little Unix programming experience, but lots of data handling experience. I currently work with Foxpro for for DOS and migrating to Informix. I also was in change of the conversion of data when we changed from the mainframes to Foxpro. Databases have always been my passion so this is a project I can relate to. I don't do much with FreeBSD, but I read a few mailing lists (every day) and I am always on the lookout for things I can help with. I tried helping with documentation, but discovered there is little help for those who want to help with the documentation: no section in the handbook explaining how to help, no samples, no note where to get the SGML, no basic instructions on how to work with SGML, etc... I even just double checked www.freebsd.org before sending this message to make sure my comments about documentation are still valid. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 22:10:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA20086 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA20079 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA12788; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:10:18 -0800 (PST) To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:04:55 -0400." <199612230605.BAA03968@revelstone.jvm.com> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:10:16 -0800 Message-ID: <12736.851321416@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do any of the existing databases for FreeBSD may be good for this? > Postgres or > Msql? If none of them do what you need I could work on something. I > would need some help though. Basically I could work on the file I haven't looked in detail, but I suspect the conclusion will be "postgres is too heavy" and "msql is too light." I think a hand-rolled solution will probably be necessary, and no doubt more efficient in terms of disk usage, since you won't be trying to solve the general problems of arbitrary data storage - you can optimize for the ascii-text case. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 01:52:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA26477 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA26472 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA19783; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:51:29 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA10418; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:51:28 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id KAA02236; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:50:04 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612230950.KAA02236@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: mailing list archives To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:50:04 +0100 (MET) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <12050.851306689@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 22, 96 06:04:49 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-large > > for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the > > contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these > > problems. > > Except then we'll almost certainly run out of inodes in the target > directory sooner rather than later. As a compromise (until we've got your database): what about daily archives? Even for the most bloat^H^H^H^H^Hpopulated lists, they are not more than a few hundred KB per day. This should be small enough to make it still manageable. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 02:23:49 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA27819 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 02:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA27796; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 02:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA24623; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:22:54 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA10728; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:22:38 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id LAA02652; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:20:09 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612231020.LAA02652@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: mailing list archives To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:20:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: francisco@natserv.com, jmb@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <12736.851321416@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 22, 96 10:10:16 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Do any of the existing databases for FreeBSD may be good for this? > I haven't looked in detail, but I suspect the conclusion will be > "postgres is too heavy" and "msql is too light." I think a People claim Postgres working fine currently, and having a good release management. I think the mere question is ``Who's willing to do it?'', since we hardly could expect this from our poor overloaded postmaster Jonathan. Kudos to jmb's work, who's often standing in the dark within the entire FreeBSD project! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 09:11:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA10248 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.fasts.com (root@server.fasts.com [199.125.215.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA10241 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.fasts.com ([199.125.215.66]) by fasts.com with SMTP id <137-225>; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 19:10:58 +0000 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 19:10:54 +0000 () From: Victor Rotanov To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: merry xmas :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi all subj :) bye. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 10:53:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA15087 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA15076; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612231853.KAA15076@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: mailing list archives To: francisco@natserv.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:53:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199612230605.BAA03968@revelstone.jvm.com> from "Francisco Reyes" at Dec 23, 96 01:04:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:48:05 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >The only really big question is - how could we implement something like > >this? There's gotta be at least one database weenie in the crowd > >here! :-) > > Do any of the existing databases for FreeBSD may be good for this? > Postgres or > Msql? If none of them do what you need I could work on something. I > would need some help though. Basically I could work on the file > handling of the database (storing data, indexing, searching, etc). What > I would need help with how to interface properly it to an HTTP server, mSQL-2.0 is at rev beta1. the database daemon dies when accessed bia the http interface (w3-msql). hopefully this will be fixed soon jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 11:12:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA16894 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA16876; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:11:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612231911.LAA16876@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: mailing list archives To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:11:57 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199612230950.KAA02236@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 23, 96 10:50:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As a compromise (until we've got your database): what about daily > archives? Even for the most bloat^H^H^H^H^Hpopulated lists, they are > not more than a few hundred KB per day. This should be small enough > to make it still manageable. can we use glimpse? (did not follow the recent thread) i can break the archives into daily files (hackers-19961223) how large are glimpse index fiels (or what ever they use) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 14:59:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA27390 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 14:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA27383 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612232259.OAA27383@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Tue, 24 Dec 1996 11:58:45 +1300 X-Sender: CHarding@mail.massey.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 11:58:46 +1200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz (Craig Harding) Subject: FreeBSD coffee mugs (was Re: COMDEX trip report..) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeah, okay so this is a *slightly* late reply (hey, I'm only a month behind in my email here at work) but this is chat, so it's important! Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >being debated). The coffee mugs are also being discontinued and won't >be sold after the current batch runs out. The breakage factor is so >high that we end up sending 3 out for every one that arrives, and as a >consequence now have to charge $19.95 just to make a profit on the >coffee cup. But they did manage to get one safely to me here in NZ with my 2.1.5 CD (and the CD case was cracked in transit) so they've obviously got better at it. >From where I'm sitting, US$19.95 is a bucketload, but on the other hand how common is a FreeBSD coffee mug? -- C. -- Craig Harding Editor, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 22:08:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA10718 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (root@ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA10713 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from swoosh.dunn.org (swoosh.dunn.org [206.158.7.243]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA00216 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:08:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:03:25 -0500 () From: Bradley Dunn To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: WTF!?!?!? Message-ID: X-X-Sender: bradley@harborcom.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the non-descriptive topic. I couldn't think of anything else to decribe how I am feeling right now. Anyone seen page B1 of the Mon. 12-23-96 Wall Street Journal? In the article about Apple buying Next, some cherub has this to say: "The Next product is a variant of Unix, a bulky operating system that is slowly losing ground to Microsoft's surging Windows NT." Unix is bulky?!?!?! In comparision to NT?!?!?! -BD From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 22:40:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA11493 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (root@ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA11488 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from swoosh.dunn.org (swoosh.dunn.org [206.158.7.243]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA05382 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:40:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:35:27 -0500 () From: Bradley Dunn To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: More lack of clue on Apple purchase Message-ID: X-X-Sender: bradley@harborcom.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is another good one from the ever so clueful press: "The new OS will run at first only on the Macintosh PowerPC platform. Since OpenStep already runs on both Intel and Unix boxes, Apple may eventually add support for these chips as well." Gee, does anyone know where I can buy one of them there Unix chips? I want to be sure to have a Unix chip so I can run this new OS. :-) You can read it for yourself at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6466,00.html -BD From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 00:22:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA14745 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 00:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA14740 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 00:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA20610; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:21:05 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA29798; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:21:04 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id JAA10499; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:15:38 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612240815.JAA10499@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: More lack of clue on Apple purchase To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:15:38 +0100 (MET) Cc: bradley@dunn.org (Bradley Dunn) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Bradley Dunn at "Dec 24, 96 01:35:27 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bradley Dunn wrote: > "The new OS will run at first only on the Macintosh PowerPC platform. > Since OpenStep already runs on both Intel and Unix boxes, Apple may > eventually add support for these chips as well." > > Gee, does anyone know where I can buy one of them there Unix chips? I want > to be sure to have a Unix chip so I can run this new OS. :-) Go into the next store, and buy a bag of potatoe chips. Perhaps OpenStep will run on them, too? :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 03:23:22 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA18775 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 03:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA18770 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 03:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03810 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:23:13 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.fr (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id MAA10938 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:22:54 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.4/keltia-uucp-2.9) id LAA03773; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 11:43:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 11:43:43 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More lack of clue on Apple purchase References: <199612240815.JAA10499@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55.04 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2837 In-Reply-To: <199612240815.JAA10499@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Dec 24, 1996 09:15:38 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to J Wunsch: > Go into the next store, and buy a bag of potatoe chips. Perhaps > OpenStep will run on them, too? :-) I've seen ads for a weedkiller named Unix here... :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #33: Sat Dec 21 12:57:17 CET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 18:57:33 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA24075 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 18:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper17a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.83]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA24070 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 18:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA06048; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:59:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-Reply-To: <10036.851469228@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 24 Dec 1996, in FreeBSD Announce Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > After the testing period is over, we hope to be rolling FreeBSD > 2.2-RELEASE no later than January 28th (we need about 10 days to > finish integrating any bug fixes or necessary changes). Shipping > should commence to CDROM customers by February of 1997, barring any > unforseen delays in the CD replication process. While I have no reason to question the January part of this statement considering the 10/14 SNAP arrived here on 12/14 and, based on WC's estimate to someone, shipping of 2.1.6 won't be until next month doesn't a February shipping date seem overly optimistic? Sure wish I could figure out how to talk my boss into buying a CDROM burner so I could just bring home the copy I FTP over the T1. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 20:34:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA26525 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA26520 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA10941; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:34:13 -0800 (PST) To: jack cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:59:53 EST." Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:34:13 -0800 Message-ID: <10937.851488453@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While I have no reason to question the January part of this statement > considering the 10/14 SNAP arrived here on 12/14 and, based on WC's > estimate to someone, shipping of 2.1.6 won't be until next month doesn't a > February shipping date seem overly optimistic? 10/14 and 2.1.6 were both significantly delayed by quirks in WC's disk production mechanism which I am right now discussing ways to improve. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 21:16:22 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA27727 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:16:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw.dfw.net (aleph1@dfw.dfw.net [198.175.15.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA27668; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by dfw.dfw.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26446; Tue, 24 Dec 96 23:15:44 CST Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:15:43 -0600 (CST) From: Aleph One To: freebsd-core@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have come across some disturbing information. It seem that FreeBSD project is filtering IP packets comming from the OpenBSD project. In particular access from 199.185.137.*, and maybe 199.185.136.*, to www.freebsd.org. If this is true it marks a very low point on the history of FreeBSD. This from a project that claims: "We believe that our first and foremost "mission" is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support." If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to comment? Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net http://underground.org/ KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 21:32:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA28321 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc75.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA28316 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA02950; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:34:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:34:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612250534.WAA02950@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Merry Christmas! Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To all you FreeBSDers out there. Thanks for all the support I've received over the past years, and keep those questions flowing. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 21:46:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA28650 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA28609; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09913; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:44:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:44:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612250544.WAA09913@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Aleph One Cc: freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Aleph One writes: > I have come across some disturbing information. It seem that FreeBSD > project is filtering IP packets comming from the OpenBSD project. In > particular access from 199.185.137.*, and maybe 199.185.136.*, to > www.freebsd.org. If this is true it marks a very low point on the history > of FreeBSD. On what basis do you make these claims? I understand that at one point in time email from Theo was filtered out simply because he was spamming mailing lists and *abusing* FreeBSD resources, but claiming that there is intent to filter all IP packets from the OpenBSD sites is a pretty strong word, and I'd like to see what factual basis you are using to even imply such a time. > If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, > and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to > comment? So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 22:02:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA29156 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw.dfw.net (aleph1@dfw.dfw.net [198.175.15.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA29132; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by dfw.dfw.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02326; Wed, 25 Dec 96 00:01:31 CST Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:01:30 -0600 (CST) From: Aleph One To: Nate Williams Cc: freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612250544.WAA09913@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 24 Dec 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > On what basis do you make these claims? I understand that at one point > in time email from Theo was filtered out simply because he was spamming > mailing lists and *abusing* FreeBSD resources, but claiming that there > is intent to filter all IP packets from the OpenBSD sites is a pretty > strong word, and I'd like to see what factual basis you are using to > even imply such a time. I have seen traceroute evidence of it, while from a different site I could reach the project's web site fine. It seems to have been going on for about a month. > So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Is this supposed to show the attitude of the project? I guess you are trying to imply that by me posting the question I have already made damage to the reputation of the project. Maybe. But this are FreeBSD discussions mailing lists, and this is a FreeBSD subject. For the record I have no interest of either project. I dont user FreeBSD or OpenBSD in any of my machines currently. (Oh and I dont have a wife, and S&M bores me) > Nate Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net http://underground.org/ KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 22:22:53 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA29699 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com ([204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA29694 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00331 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:22:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612250622.WAA00331@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Merry Christmas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:22:34 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Feliz Navidad y un Prospero Ano Nuevo Amancio & Bettina From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 22:24:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA29767 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (root@spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA29720; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA12304; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:21:19 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199612250621.OAA12304@spinner.DIALix.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Nate Williams cc: Aleph One , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:44:42 MST." <199612250544.WAA09913@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:21:19 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > Aleph One writes: > > I have come across some disturbing information. It seem that FreeBSD > > project is filtering IP packets comming from the OpenBSD project. In > > particular access from 199.185.137.*, and maybe 199.185.136.*, to > > www.freebsd.org. If this is true it marks a very low point on the history > > of FreeBSD. > > On what basis do you make these claims? I understand that at one point > in time email from Theo was filtered out simply because he was spamming > mailing lists and *abusing* FreeBSD resources, but claiming that there > is intent to filter all IP packets from the OpenBSD sites is a pretty > strong word, and I'd like to see what factual basis you are using to > even imply such a time. Nate, he's quite correct I'm afraid. Now all we need to find out is who did it. :-( If it's meant to stop mail, it's totally useless because of MX records. Have a look at freefall's /etc/rc.local for an example of how not to do a packet block. > > If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, > > and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to > > comment? > > So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Oh great. Just wonderful... There goes the neighborhood. Perhaps we'd better disconnect from the net for a few weeks and then check to see if the flame wars have calmed down a bit by then. > Nate -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 23:39:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA01070 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA01065 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) id CAA02854; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:38:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:38:58 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199612250738.CAA02854@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <59qhhr$l88@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Nate Williams wrote: [snip] >> If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, >> and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to >> comment? [snip] >So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Jesus Nate, whats up with this kinda shit A) in a FreeBSD mailing list, B) on an issue where the poster was correct, C) coming from a respected FreeBSD person, D) on Christmas eve? *sigh* Everyone take cover... -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 23:58:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA01360 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA01354; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id CAA22016; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199612250756.CAA22016@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org To: peter@spinner.dialix.com (Peter Wemm) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:56:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, aleph1@dfw.net, freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612250621.OAA12304@spinner.DIALix.COM> from "Peter Wemm" at Dec 25, 96 02:21:19 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Nate Williams wrote: > > Aleph One writes: > > > I have come across some disturbing information. It seem that FreeBSD > > > project is filtering IP packets comming from the OpenBSD project. In > > > particular access from 199.185.137.*, and maybe 199.185.136.*, to > > > www.freebsd.org. If this is true it marks a very low point on the history > > > of FreeBSD. > > > > On what basis do you make these claims? I understand that at one point > > in time email from Theo was filtered out simply because he was spamming > > mailing lists and *abusing* FreeBSD resources, but claiming that there > > is intent to filter all IP packets from the OpenBSD sites is a pretty > > strong word, and I'd like to see what factual basis you are using to > > even imply such a time. > One more thing... There are ALOT more places to get FreeBSD from anyway, so I don't even believe that there is a valid claim that someone in those IP address ranges can't get FreeBSD. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 00:52:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA02434 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA02426; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0vcp3s-0003voC; Wed, 25 Dec 96 00:51 PST Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.phk.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA00731; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:56:42 +0100 (MET) To: Peter Wemm cc: Nate Williams , Aleph One , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:21:19 +0800." <199612250621.OAA12304@spinner.DIALix.COM> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:56:41 +0100 Message-ID: <729.851504201@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I did, after conferring with Jordan, to prevent a denial-of-service attack that theo threathen us with. The reason it was done this way was exactly that it >didn't< prevent email from flowing. And yes, he's right there next to mens-club and other spammers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 01:04:36 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA02845 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA02822; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA02033; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:02:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612250902.BAA02033@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Peter Wemm , Nate Williams , Aleph One , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:56:41 +0100." <729.851504201@critter.tfs.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:02:33 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I did, after conferring with Jordan, to prevent a denial-of-service >attack that theo threathen us with. [I had thought that Jordan had added it, but I apparantly mis-understood him when he told me about ita month ago...but this doesn't matter] >The reason it was done this way was exactly that it >didn't< prevent >email from flowing. It should be pointed out that Theo has theatened to sick his cracker friends onto to freefall and other machines to somehow "prove" that FreeBSD was insecure (with the apparant implication that OpenBSD IS secure). He has "apparantly" claimed that they have already broken into "Walnut Creek CDROM" machines several times. I haven't tried to filter Theo or his cohorts from wcarchive, but this was at least part of the motivation behind the IP filter on freefall. Actually all of this filtering stuff is rather stupid. What we should do is simply gather evidence and prosecute. :-( Merry Christmas. :-( -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 01:22:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA03383 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw.dfw.net (aleph1@dfw.dfw.net [198.175.15.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA03377; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by dfw.dfw.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19680; Wed, 25 Dec 96 03:21:25 CST Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:21:25 -0600 (CST) From: Aleph One To: David Greenman Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Peter Wemm , Nate Williams , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612250902.BAA02033@root.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, David Greenman wrote: > It should be pointed out that Theo has theatened to sick his cracker > friends onto to freefall and other machines to somehow "prove" that FreeBSD > was insecure (with the apparant implication that OpenBSD IS secure). He > has "apparantly" claimed that they have already broken into "Walnut Creek > CDROM" machines several times. I haven't tried to filter Theo or his cohorts > from wcarchive, but this was at least part of the motivation behind the IP > filter on freefall. Actually all of this filtering stuff is rather stupid. > What we should do is simply gather evidence and prosecute. :-( Those are some rather serious accusations. One thing is accusing someone be being a asshole, another to say he or "his cohorts" have broken into anything. I really hope you got something to back that up. > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net http://underground.org/ KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 01:54:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA04034 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA04025; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0vcq1e-0003voC; Wed, 25 Dec 96 01:53 PST Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.phk.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA00851; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:58:50 +0100 (MET) To: Aleph One cc: David Greenman , Peter Wemm , Nate Williams , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:21:25 CST." Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:58:49 +0100 Message-ID: <849.851507929@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wouldn't mind knowing your identity before I engage in some kind of public discussion with you, but I will send you this one answer: >Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net >http://underground.org/ >KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 >Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 Yes, we do filter certain networks out from our machines. In particular networks that either have or have threathend to abuse our hospitality. In the case of Theo, I don't think we need to do any justification of this filtering. He's being filtered, end of story. If he wants anything from freebsd, he can pick it up from a mirror somewhere. If he wants the filter removed, he can send us a notarized letter, apologizing for his past behaviour. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 02:21:41 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA04627 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA04620 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA28787; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 11:21:17 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA18285; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 11:21:17 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id KAA16735; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:58:31 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612250958.KAA16735@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:58:30 +0100 (MET) Cc: aleph1@dfw.net, nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612250544.WAA09913@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Dec 24, 96 10:44:42 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Nate, that's not the language to be spoken on the FreeBSD mailing lists. (I mark this opinion explicitly as being the core-team opinion here.) Also folks (Aleph in the first place), _don't_ spam our lists by sending your messages to multiple lists. We have repeated to demand it, and if this kind of abuse continues, we are strongly considering to have majordomo rejecting all messages sent to more than two lists. No, Aleph, we are not blind, and most people from the FreeBSD core team do also read freebsd-chat. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 02:48:59 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA05272 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA05248; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA02531; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:46:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612251046.CAA02531@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list), aleph1@dfw.net, nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:58:30 +0100." <199612250958.KAA16735@uriah.heep.sax.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:46:09 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Nate Williams wrote: > >> So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? > >Nate, that's not the language to be spoken on the FreeBSD mailing >lists. (I mark this opinion explicitly as being the core-team opinion >here.) > >Also folks (Aleph in the first place), _don't_ spam our lists by >sending your messages to multiple lists. We have repeated to demand >it, and if this kind of abuse continues, we are strongly considering >to have majordomo rejecting all messages sent to more than two lists. Yes, but... >No, Aleph, we are not blind, and most people from the FreeBSD core >team do also read freebsd-chat. Um, this is should not be assumed in this case. However, this entire thread is not approriate for the "freebsd-chat" mailing list or any other public forum unless your intent is to provoke a flame war. Administrative or policy issues should always be brought up with freebsd-core, and not in some random mailing list. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 03:02:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA05492 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA05446; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA15345; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:01:53 -0800 (PST) To: Aleph One cc: freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:15:43 CST." Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:01:53 -0800 Message-ID: <15340.851511713@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have come across some disturbing information. It seem that FreeBSD > project is filtering IP packets comming from the OpenBSD project. In > particular access from 199.185.137.*, and maybe 199.185.136.*, to > www.freebsd.org. If this is true it marks a very low point on the history > of FreeBSD. This was started well over 3 months ago and is old old news. I fail to understand how this could only suddenly "come to light" for anyone involved with either project, we being very open indeed about it at the time (just search our mailing list archives for freebsd-hackers with Theo as the keyword). We were forced to filter the OpenBSD project because the same hosts and/or IP address range that it uses were also used in repeated attacks against the FreeBSD project's mailing lists and development machines by Theo Deraadt, who actually owns the network in question. These were not covert attacks, they were very open and Theo sent personal mail to several core members threatening to escalate them with the aid of (quote) "his cracker friends." It was at this stage that we added filtering, to try and block (in one small way) such attempts. When the OpenBSD project decides to have someone less criminally inclined as its representative, we'll be happy to discuss this with them. Until then, the man has shown himself unable to exercise a degree of self-restraint which would be consistent with someone of his age and responsibilities, and if he insists on behaving like a 14 year- old cracker then he will obviously be treated as such. It is simply unfortunate in the extreme that he chose to use machines on the same network to conduct his attacks (also misusing a machine at MIT for that purpose, for which its admins were not amused), and has done the OpenBSD project a grave disservice in doing so. We have taken, I believe, only the most appropriate steps to defend ourselves from Theo's juvenile behavior and will continue to do so. > If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, > and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to > comment? This is no "cheap trick", this is self-defense, plain and simple. I only regret that such defense against a "leading light" in the software community is necessary at all. Trust me folks, we have ample documentation for the claims I make above and if you'd like a second opinion, just ask the NetBSD project why it does precisely the same thing with packets from Theo's network. The list of people singularly unimpressed with Theo's behavior in the past and with great reason to distrust it in the future is long indeed. I can only suggest that the OpenBSD project find a more credible representatitive, and if you choose Kevin Mitnick as your best man then you probably shouldn't be too surprised if the FBI shows up at your wedding. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 03:05:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA05586 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA05550; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA15388; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:03 -0800 (PST) To: Aleph One cc: freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:15:43 CST." Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:02 -0800 Message-ID: <15385.851511902@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oh, one more thing: This is the last we'll say on the subject. The blocks stay until Theo goes. Simple. Until then, please don't flood our mailing lists with further chit-chat on this topic. It's an old topic, let it stay buried. Merry Christmas. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 03:06:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA05625 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA05607; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA15403; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:50 -0800 (PST) To: Aleph One cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:01:30 CST." Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 03:05:49 -0800 Message-ID: <15400.851511949@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is this supposed to show the attitude of the project? I guess you are > trying to imply that by me posting the question I have already made damage > to the reputation of the project. Maybe. But this are FreeBSD discussions Nate was simply misinformed. He should have asked us. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 08:15:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA15249 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw.dfw.net (aleph1@dfw.dfw.net [198.175.15.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA15237 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by dfw.dfw.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22102; Wed, 25 Dec 96 10:14:57 CST Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:14:56 -0600 (CST) From: Aleph One To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: FreeBSD chat list , Nate Williams Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612250958.KAA16735@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > Also folks (Aleph in the first place), _don't_ spam our lists by > sending your messages to multiple lists. We have repeated to demand > it, and if this kind of abuse continues, we are strongly considering > to have majordomo rejecting all messages sent to more than two lists. > No, Aleph, we are not blind, and most people from the FreeBSD core > team do also read freebsd-chat. Sorry for the spamming Joerg. I belived it was relevant. My apologies. > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net http://underground.org/ KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 08:15:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA15268 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw.dfw.net (aleph1@dfw.dfw.net [198.175.15.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA15262; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by dfw.dfw.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22089; Wed, 25 Dec 96 10:13:48 CST Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:13:47 -0600 (CST) From: Aleph One To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: David Greenman , Peter Wemm , Nate Williams , freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <849.851507929@critter.tfs.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I wouldn't mind knowing your identity before I engage in some kind > of public discussion with you, but I will send you this one answer: Morning Poul. There is not much to know. I run both underground.org and BugTraq. If you want a name (what difference does it make?) feel free to do a whois on underground.org. > Yes, we do filter certain networks out from our machines. In > particular networks that either have or have threathend to > abuse our hospitality. > > In the case of Theo, I don't think we need to do any justification > of this filtering. > > He's being filtered, end of story. > > If he wants anything from freebsd, he can pick it up from a mirror > somewhere. > > If he wants the filter removed, he can send us a notarized letter, > apologizing for his past behaviour. I'am not here to fight for Theo. I was just amazed by the fact that the filter existed. Obiously it doesnt really stop anyone from using the web site (the are plenty of annonymous web proxies), or to ftp from a mirrow. So I wanter of what real use it is, other than being a childish fight between the two projects. > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. > Aleph One / aleph1@dfw.net http://underground.org/ KeyID 1024/948FD6B5 Fingerprint EE C9 E8 AA CB AF 09 61 8C 39 EA 47 A8 6A B8 01 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 08:45:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA15882 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA15875; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (jamie@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08378; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 11:53:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 11:53:56 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Aleph One cc: freebsd-core@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry to mail to both lists, but I know not whose on -core vs. -chat. See Comments below. Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, Aleph One wrote: > On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, David Greenman wrote: > > > It should be pointed out that Theo has theatened to sick his cracker > > friends onto to freefall and other machines to somehow "prove" that FreeBSD > > was insecure (with the apparant implication that OpenBSD IS secure). He > > has "apparantly" claimed that they have already broken into "Walnut Creek > > CDROM" machines several times. I haven't tried to filter Theo or his cohorts > > from wcarchive, but this was at least part of the motivation behind the IP > > filter on freefall. Actually all of this filtering stuff is rather stupid. > > What we should do is simply gather evidence and prosecute. :-( > > Those are some rather serious accusations. One thing is accusing someone > be being a asshole, another to say he or "his cohorts" have broken into > anything. I really hope you got something to back that up. He only mailed it to several lists. You might even find it in usenet. I don't know, I don't read it anymore. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 09:49:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA17054 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from housing1.stucen.gatech.edu (ken@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu [130.207.52.71]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA17049 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ken@localhost) by housing1.stucen.gatech.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA18577; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 12:48:55 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199612251748.MAA18577@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: WTF!?!?!? In-Reply-To: from Bradley Dunn at "Dec 24, 96 01:03:25 am" To: bradley@dunn.org (Bradley Dunn) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 12:48:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bradley Dunn wrote... > Sorry for the non-descriptive topic. I couldn't think of anything else to > decribe how I am feeling right now. > > Anyone seen page B1 of the Mon. 12-23-96 Wall Street Journal? In the > article about Apple buying Next, some cherub has this to say: > > "The Next product is a variant of Unix, a bulky operating system that is > slowly losing ground to Microsoft's surging Windows NT." > > Unix is bulky?!?!?! In comparision to NT?!?!?! This is a quote from the same article: "'If they can pull it off, Apple might actually break ahead of the field,' said Bill Jolitz, an operating system expert at Tandem Computers Inc. 'They have a possibility of being a surprise dark-horse finisher.'" Hmm... Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu Disclaimer: I don't speak for GTRI, GT, or Elvis. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 10:02:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA17546 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (pa2dsp18.x31.infi.net [206.27.115.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA17541 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA00443; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-Reply-To: <10937.851488453@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 24 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > 10/14 and 2.1.6 were both significantly delayed by quirks in WC's disk > production mechanism which I am right now discussing ways to improve. Good luck. I did notice a bit of a problem with the boot.flp, the release name is set to 2.2-BETA_A. That can't be found on ftp.freebsd.org :( quick trip into options cured that. :) I'm a bit puzzled by the X86 selection menu. It lists the size of source and csource as 100M each yet `All of the above' is only 20M. New math or some super duper compression scheme? Now that we've abandoned 1.2 meg floppies for boot.flp would it be possible to institute a graceful recovery from dropped carrier on an FTP install via modem? You can switch back to the PPP session and reestablish your PPP connection but, AFAIK, you can't pick up the FTP session. Assuming you've made it past the bin distribution the ability to go into the `clean up' phase, remake devices, set permissions, copy kernel.GENERIC, etc.., would at least leave you with a bootable system and the bells and whistles could be added latter if the /stand directory was revived. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 13:44:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA23299 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [206.165.5.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA23294 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from primenet.com (bkogawa@usr10.primenet.com [206.165.5.110]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.8.3/wjp-h3.00) with ESMTP id OAA28210; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:44:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by primenet.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA24877; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:44:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:44:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Ogawa Reply-To: Bryan Ogawa To: chat@freebsd.org cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: 2.2-ALPHA config glitch (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, jack wrote: [...] > Now that we've abandoned 1.2 meg floppies for boot.flp would it be > possible to institute a graceful recovery from dropped carrier on an FTP > install via modem? You can switch back to the PPP session and reestablish > your PPP connection but, AFAIK, you can't pick up the FTP session. > Assuming you've made it past the bin distribution the ability to go into > the `clean up' phase, remake devices, set permissions, copy > kernel.GENERIC, etc.., would at least leave you with a bootable system and > the bells and whistles could be added latter if the /stand directory was > revived. A problem I had with PPP was trying to install with a non-standard COM port. I have my modem on IRQ5, COM4, so I booted up and changed the settings with the config (-c) thing. I set my modem up to be sio1, and then chose ppp on COM2 (presuming that this would be mapped to sio1). Unfortunately, it still used /dev/cuaa0 instead of /dev/cuaa1 . Furthermore, ppp had trouble when this happened, so I was unable to switch to /dev/cuaa1 from the ppp prompt, and had to try again. The second time, I was able to install by immediately changing my device to /dev/cuaa1 in the ppp menu, but this would have probably been less than obvious to someone unfamiliar with FreeBSD. Are the two different ppp options supposed to choose cuaa0 and cuaa1, respectively? I'd suggest putting a pointer in INSTALL.TXT to the user PPP section of the handbook (or better yet, inserting the relevant bits into INSTALL.TXT so that the person who prints it out doesn't have to dig up a net connection after printing). I'll try to suggest specific changes to the INSTALL.TXT in the next few days. Merry Christmas! bryan k. ogawa From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 13:48:51 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA23380 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA23374 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA16533; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:48:45 -0800 (PST) To: Bryan Ogawa cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA config glitch (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:44:03 PST." Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:48:45 -0800 Message-ID: <16530.851550525@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A problem I had with PPP was trying to install with a non-standard COM > port. I have my modem on IRQ5, COM4, so I booted up and changed the > settings with the config (-c) thing. Does this still happen in 2.2-BETA? I believe I fixed this! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 13:56:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA23693 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [206.165.5.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA23661 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from primenet.com (bkogawa@usr10.primenet.com [206.165.5.110]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.8.3/wjp-h3.00) with ESMTP id OAA28478; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:55:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by primenet.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA25295; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:55:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:55:58 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Ogawa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA config glitch (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available) In-Reply-To: <16530.851550525@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > A problem I had with PPP was trying to install with a non-standard COM > > port. I have my modem on IRQ5, COM4, so I booted up and changed the > > settings with the config (-c) thing. > > Does this still happen in 2.2-BETA? I believe I fixed this! Bargle. I didn't make it clear, sorry--this was in 2.2-ALPHA, not 2.2-BETA (which I haven't tried). bryan k. ogawa From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 26 08:53:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA27226 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 08:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.superior.net (root@nimbus.superior.net [206.153.96.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA27218 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 08:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from exidor@localhost) by nimbus.superior.net (8.7.6/8.7.5) id LAA14925; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 11:53:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199612261653.LAA14925@nimbus.superior.net> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 11:53:38 -0500 From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org References: <59qhhr$l88@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <199612250738.CAA02854@crh.cl.msu.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199612250738.CAA02854@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Dec 25, 1996 02:38:58 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Henrich writes: > >Nate Williams wrote: > > [snip] > > >> If the project is to succeed its in the basis of its quality, support, > >> and technical merits, and not by means of cheap tricks. Anyone wish to > >> comment? > > [snip] > > >So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? > > Jesus Nate, whats up with this kinda shit A) in a FreeBSD mailing list, > B) on an issue where the poster was correct, C) coming from a respected FreeBSD > person, D) on Christmas eve? I guess there are many people who aren't aware of this famous question. I doubt it was intended as an insult - rather it was to point out that the nature of the original question. It really doesn't work in this case, but if you think he was seriously accusing Mr. Levy of being a wife-beater, you're mistaken. -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Facts: Don't confuse me with the facts. I've got a closed mind. - - Earl Landgrebe, Republican Congressman from Indiana and Nixon supporter, - when told about incriminating conversations on the Watergate tapes. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 26 16:27:30 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA20876 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA20864 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02687; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:27:18 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id BAA15667; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:26:46 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.4/keltia-uucp-2.9) id BAA06755; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:23:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:23:43 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat Mailing List) Subject: Re: Explain this you SCSI tape experts! :-) References: <32C2BC69.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55.04 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2837 In-Reply-To: <32C2BC69.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov>; from Sean Kelly on Dec 26, 1996 10:56:57 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to -chat ] According to Sean Kelly: > > Murphy law: backups only fail if you need them! > > And, being Irish, I seem to know Murphy really well. ;-) One of my clients in my former job was an Irish named "Jim Murphy" :-) I like Guinness better myself. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #33: Sat Dec 21 12:57:17 CET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 26 17:27:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA22718 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 17:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA22713 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 17:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05384 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 17:26:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612270126.RAA05384@antares.aero.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:34:13 PST." <10937.851488453@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 17:26:46 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I saw the bit where the install process no longer uses the DOSFS mechanism. I use DOSFS all the time, because I run both FreeBSD and Win95 on the same machine, and I trust FreeBSD's net stuff a whole lot more than whatever stack Windows is using. I wish DOSFS were in better shape, because occasionally when I get too carried away at moving stuff around on the DOS partition while I'm still running the UNIX side of the house, I wind up punching big holes in my file system. It's always puzzled me why DOSFS wasn't a higher-priority item. Me, I couldn't live without it. Do people really avoid Windows that strenuously? I personally enjoy playing the various games available, I confess it, but I also find that WordPro (in my case) gives a lot more value for money than anything I can find in the UNIX world. No way am I giving up UNIX and if WordPro for UNIX ever came around I'd snap it up. But as it is, I use DOSFS, I need DOSFS, and I wish it were in better shape. When I become either sufficiently brave or sufficiently unemployed I'll have to take a look at it. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 26 19:50:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA27907 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA27898 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA26879; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:50:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:50:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: David Greenman cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, marcs@znep.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-Reply-To: <199612230042.QAA23169@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, David Greenman wrote: > > we switch from the one-big file format to monthly files > > named freebsd-questions-199611, for example > > each month a new file is started for each list > > This isn't any improvement, IMO. The files would still be way-too-large > for people to deal with and it doesn't make it any easier to index the > contents. One message per file is the only scheme that addresses these > problems. For indexing purposes, the only benefit to breaking things up into chunks is fore convenient addition of new material without re-indexing everything from scratch (as is curretly done). The size of the chunks depends entirely on the desired update frequency. A month is too long. Weekly or daily would be better. Individual messages would be absurd. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 00:22:37 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA09868 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA09863 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA25959; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:21:30 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27987; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:21:29 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id JAA02975; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:18:28 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612270818.JAA02975@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:18:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612270126.RAA05384@antares.aero.org> from Mike O'Brien at "Dec 26, 96 05:26:46 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mike O'Brien wrote: > It's always puzzled me why DOSFS wasn't a higher-priority item. Me, > I couldn't live without it. Well, than you're the #1 candidate for improving it! :-) Seriously, how do you expect other developers doing this for you? I really don't have a DOS filesystem handy on any of my machines. Well, our company's notebook has one, but i have yet to see a failure when using DOSFS there, and the not yet working SCSI controller in the docking station challenges me way more than a bug in the DOSFS code -- so this will set my priorities. If your priorities are different, it's the simple matter as everything in this project: it's your turn. (NB: that doesn't mean i ignore other bugs, but i'm much more in need of the SCSI bus there.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 03:22:30 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA15020 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com ([204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA15015 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:22:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA02050; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:21:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612271121.DAA02050@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list), obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:18:28 +0100." <199612270818.JAA02975@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:21:01 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk With respect to DOSFS, how about posting periodically a project list? Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 03:28:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA15146 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA15141 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA00892; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:27:10 -0800 (PST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list), obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:18:28 +0100." <199612270818.JAA02975@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:27:10 -0800 Message-ID: <888.851686030@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Mike O'Brien wrote: > > > It's always puzzled me why DOSFS wasn't a higher-priority item. Me, > > I couldn't live without it. > > Well, than you're the #1 candidate for improving it! :-) Actually, he's not. The person who's already working on this is Robert Nordier, and he's been doing it for at least 6 months. That is why we haven't been calling to the heavens for more MSDOSFS hackers - there was already one engaged on the project and it simply took longer than anyone thought. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 03:41:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA15771 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA15765 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id WAA27741; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:10:33 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612271140.WAA27741@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-Reply-To: <199612270126.RAA05384@antares.aero.org> from Mike O'Brien at "Dec 26, 96 05:26:46 pm" To: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:10:32 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike O'Brien stands accused of saying: > I saw the bit where the install process no longer uses the DOSFS > mechanism. That's correct, it now uses a special-purpose DOS FS I/O library written by Robert N. This is as much to standardise sysinstall as anything. > stack Windows is using. I wish DOSFS were in better shape, because > occasionally when I get too carried away at moving stuff around on > the DOS partition while I'm still running the UNIX side of the > house, I wind up punching big holes in my file system. You should pay more attention then. The major problems causing this were eradicated some time ago, and the fix is in 2.2. > It's always puzzled me why DOSFS wasn't a higher-priority item. Me, > I couldn't live without it. Do people really avoid Windows that strenuously? Yes. > No way am I giving up UNIX and if WordPro for UNIX ever came around WordPro? If you want a Unix wordprocessor, there's WordPerfect (works very well), or Applixware (Like MS Office, and competitively priced too). The former is a SCO application, the latter available for many platforms including Linux. Due to FreeBSD's good emulation support, both of these are quite viable. Alternatively, Wine is getting close to running MS Word 6 well; it's not elegant but certainly runs OK for the trivial things I tried. > were in better shape. When I become either sufficiently brave or > sufficiently unemployed I'll have to take a look at it. You're _still_ not paying enough attention 8) If luck is with us, Robert N. will have time these holidays inbetween having a life and a job and finish his complete-from-scratch-reimplementation (VFATFS) and will thus be canonalised. And you scum-eating W95 users will even have your long filenames (maybe). 8) > Mike O'Brien -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 11:23:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA04089 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA04084 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA14161 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:22:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612271922.LAA14161@antares.aero.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:40:32 PST." <199612271140.WAA27741@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:22:30 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You should pay more attention then. The major problems causing this > were eradicated some time ago, and the fix is in 2.2. Ahhhh, finally a reason for me to run 2.2 instead of 2.1.6. This is very valuable information - thanks! Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 12:29:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA06617 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA06607 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from PacBell.TelcoSucks.org (ulf@fu126.congress.ccc.de [194.221.29.126]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA15461; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:33:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961227031123.006c86e0@Gatekeeper-3.Lamb.net> X-Sender: ulf@Gatekeeper-3.Lamb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:28:29 -0800 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) From: Ulf Zimmermann Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA is now available Cc: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:18 AM 12/27/96 +0100, J Wunsch wrote: >As Mike O'Brien wrote: > >> It's always puzzled me why DOSFS wasn't a higher-priority item. Me, >> I couldn't live without it. > >Well, than you're the #1 candidate for improving it! :-) > >Seriously, how do you expect other developers doing this for you? I >really don't have a DOS filesystem handy on any of my machines. Well, >our company's notebook has one, but i have yet to see a failure when >using DOSFS there, and the not yet working SCSI controller in the >docking station challenges me way more than a bug in the DOSFS code -- >so this will set my priorities. If your priorities are different, >it's the simple matter as everything in this project: it's your turn. > >(NB: that doesn't mean i ignore other bugs, but i'm much more in need >of the SCSI bus there.) I have still one machine at home with FreeBSD and Dos on it. Even a 1.6 GB Dos Partition on the second drive. The systems runs right now 2.1.6R, but I was thinking about going to -current on it. Esp. after I needed something from the 1.6GB partition and even better knowledge I mounted the partition from FreeBSD. Now the system is crashed while I am thousands of miles away and that for another week. Can only hope nothing was damaged on the disk *grin* But I would be able to test DOSFS improvements or I would maybe even help providing a better DOSFS. Ulf. ----------------------------------------------------------- Alameda Networks, Inc. | Ulf Zimmermann (ulf@Alameda.net) 1525 Pacific Avenue | Phone: (510)769-2936 Alameda, CA 94501 | Fax : (510)521-5073 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 14:00:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA10517 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.tlk.com (root@solar.tlk.com [194.97.84.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA10512 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from travel.UUCP by solar.tlk.com via sendmail with UUCP id for freefall.freebsd.org!chat; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:59:57 +0100 (MET)) Received: by travel.tlk.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id ; Fri, 27 Dec 96 23:13 MET Message-Id: From: torstenb@travel.tlk.com (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-Reply-To: from David O'Brien at "Dec 27, 96 01:58:58 am" To: deobrien@ucdavis.edu Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 23:13:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: torstenb@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Moved to -chat] David O'Brien wrote: > You've *GOT* to be kidding! You mean every work w/in a letter of a > trademark is concidered a trademark violatition? And I thought the rest > of the world was above this kind of B.S. that is often previalant in the > United States... whole world ? no, there's a city called "Munich" with a "famous" lawyer called "von Gravenreuth"... *sigh* As I wrote in my previous mail, the lawyer we're talking about does similar things since mid 1980. He's not dump - he knows exactely what he is doing. Thats why he is so "dangerous". If (in germany) cryptography becomes subject to regulations or if it will be forbidden (like france or russia today), I'm sure that von Gravenreuth will be one of first to use this new "laws" for his own profit... *sigh* -tb -- Torsten Blum, Friedensstr. 13a, 82110 Germering, Munich, Germany "Zwei Dinge sind unendlich: Das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit -beim Universum bin ich mir aber noch nicht ganz sicher" -Albert Einstein From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 14:00:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA10547 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.tlk.com (root@solar.tlk.com [194.97.84.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA10533 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from travel.UUCP by solar.tlk.com via sendmail with UUCP id for freefall.freebsd.org!chat; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:59:53 +0100 (MET)) Received: by travel.tlk.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id ; Fri, 27 Dec 96 23:00 MET Message-Id: From: torstenb@travel.tlk.com (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-Reply-To: <199612270904.KAA03468@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 27, 96 10:04:25 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 23:00:23 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: torstenb@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Moved to -chat] J Wunsch wrote: > > > Intel don't use "triton" anymore due to copyright problems. (*laugh*) > > > > I don't know about copyright, perhaps it was a trademark problem? > > Yes, a trademark problem. > > There's a German lawyer who is known for terrorizing various parts of > the computer business here, mostly smaller dealers. Too bad that > Germany has a very controlled distribution of shotguns... (And no, we > aren't half that successful in replacing the deadly effect of shutguns > by racing with cars on the autobahn. :) "racing" on the autobahn ? It's hard to find more than a few kilometers without an speedlimit these days... > Anyway, he has recently pressed many dealers to pay huge amounts of > money for something where he claimed trademark infringement. A > Belgian (i believe) company makes some software package called > `Tricon', and he claims the use of the word `Triton' would violate > their vital interests. > > Unfortunately, some court gave him right in this. :-( Gravenreuth (the lawyer Joerg is talking about) does similar things for several years now. Several years ago (when Commodore's C64 became popular), he pressed young people or their parents to pay huge amounts of money (btw, what's the english word for "Abmahnung" ? All my dictionaries are in Munich - that's 500 kilometers from here... ;-). In most cases the parents did not know anything about computers and payed the money because of the "possible" legal problems... It never got to the courts (If I remeber right), so the laywers continued ... > Interestingly enough, he settled down his claim when it came to > Mickeysoft and W95: they are still allowed to auto-probe and announce > the chipset as Triton there. I guess his money didn't last to > successfully sue them... Too bad that M$ did not sue `von Gravenreuth' - They only thing M$ is good for ... ;-) -tb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 18:06:43 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA22136 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA22129 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA28751; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 21:06:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 21:06:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: mailing list archives In-Reply-To: <12736.851321416@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Do any of the existing databases for FreeBSD may be good for this? > > Postgres or > > Msql? If none of them do what you need I could work on something. I > > would need some help though. Basically I could work on the file > > I haven't looked in detail, but I suspect the conclusion will be > "postgres is too heavy" and "msql is too light." It isn't so much weight as being inappropriate for the task. Using postgres would be like entering long haul tractor trailer rig in the Indianapolis 500. Using msql would be like using a GMC Suburban in the same context. Relational databases in general are not well suited for tasks where record and field structure has a lot of variability, eg mail. The tools of choice for text will be based on either inverted indexes or vector representations. The better of these will offer stemming, synonym matching and soundex matching. The best is a hybrid that provides advanced text searching functionality in the context of a structured document. The current archives work reasonably well for finding a relevant message. However, with some use you will notice that you tend to retrieve other messages stating a similar question to yours, not the answer. (This shouldn't actually come as a surprise.) To get the answers, we need thread retrieval. For this, I don't think we need new indexing software, we just need to figure out how to take an existing message and *automatically* formulate appropriate queries to build the thread from it. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 08:22:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA16506 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 08:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA16499; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 08:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id RAA26693; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:21:44 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id RAA04058; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:21:24 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id QAA12798; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:53:22 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612281553.QAA12798@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:53:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: torstenb@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Torsten Blum at "Dec 27, 96 11:00:23 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Torsten Blum wrote: > (btw, what's the english word for "Abmahnung" ? I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 10:25:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA20242 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA20231; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA07487; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:25:37 -0800 (PST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list), torstenb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:53:21 +0100." <199612281553.QAA12798@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:25:36 -0800 Message-ID: <7483.851797536@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as > pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) There's an easy translation for the latter one: "bureaucrat" or "bean counter" Another difficult to translate one is "makler" (machler?), which translates to "blood sucking leech." :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 10:54:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA21116 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA21105; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26554; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:53:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612281853.KAA26554@antares.aero.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list), torstenb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 28 Dec 1996 07:53:21 PST." <199612281553.QAA12798@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:53:41 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as > pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) Oh, I don't know, I think we have more than our share of Beamtern. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 11:52:06 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA22624 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA22619 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA19650 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:51:58 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA07871 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:51:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id UAA18233 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:40 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612281939.UAA18233@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:40 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <7483.851797536@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 28, 96 10:25:36 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as > > pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) > There's an easy translation for the latter one: "bureaucrat" or > "bean counter" I don't know about the mental meaning of "bean counter", but i think no other country than Germany can really come up with the equivalent of "Beamter". The major point of such a beast is that he's not only paid by the state, but he also knows that he'll be paid forever by the state, regardless of whether he's doing something, or doing nothing. Well, moste Beamte are really best at doing nothing... To the best of my knowledge, all other countries would finally also fire their bureaucrats if they make too many mistakes. In Germany, that's simply impossible: they must be paid until they finally die. :-( -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 12:28:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA23690 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from beldin.home.us (pm2-08.wmbg.widomaker.com [206.161.154.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA23683 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from branson@localhost) by beldin.home.us (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA10628; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:29:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:29:39 -0500 (EST) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@beldin.home.us To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: USENIX97 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hey... just wondering who else is heading to USENIX this year... I will be there and would love to meet some of the rest of you turkey ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H errr... great people who work with this OS. I will be sure to signup for the BOF :-) -branson If Pete and Re-Pete | (Home) branson@widomaker.com were sitting on a fence, | And Pete fell off, | (FreeBSD) branson@freefall.cdrom.com Who would be left?? | (Dream) owner@branson.missouri From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 12:46:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA24425 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA24420 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA08186; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:46:13 -0800 (PST) To: Branson Matheson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX97 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:29:39 EST." Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: <8183.851805973@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Both David and I will be there. David might even give the BOF this year, since he's never done it solo.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 16:56:30 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA06346 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA06325; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA02145; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:24:57 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612290054.LAA02145@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-Reply-To: <199612281553.QAA12798@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 28, 96 04:53:21 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:24:56 +1030 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, torstenb@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Torsten Blum wrote: > > > (btw, what's the english word for "Abmahnung" ? > > I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as > pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) Hmm? I read "Abmahnung" as 'dissuasion' or something similar implying a warning away from something. I think 'public servant' is an insult in most languages 8) > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 17:07:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA06701 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA06696 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA02177; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:35:02 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612290105.LAA02177@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml In-Reply-To: <199612281939.UAA18233@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 28, 96 08:39:40 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:35:01 +1030 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I don't think there is one. Translating this would be about as > > > pointless as translating ``Beamter''. :-) > > > There's an easy translation for the latter one: "bureaucrat" or > > "bean counter" > > I don't know about the mental meaning of "bean counter", but i think > no other country than Germany can really come up with the equivalent > of "Beamter". The major point of such a beast is that he's not only > paid by the state, but he also knows that he'll be paid forever by the > state, regardless of whether he's doing something, or doing nothing. > Well, moste Beamte are really best at doing nothing... "The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the known universe". Yes, I think we know what you mean 8) If you haven't already, the british series "Yes Minister" (later "Yes Prime Minister") is well worth watching for some relief on this topic. > To the best of my knowledge, all other countries would finally also > fire their bureaucrats if they make too many mistakes. In Germany, > that's simply impossible: they must be paid until they finally die. Ahh, well over here, you pay them _more_ when they get fired. And then their buddies (because like termites or lice you can never get all of them at once) hire them back as consultants at twice their original salary. > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 17:52:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07883 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from revelstone.jvm.com (revelstone.jvm.com [207.98.213.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA07874 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-218.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.218]) by revelstone.jvm.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA28924 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:52:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199612290152.UAA28924@revelstone.jvm.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 96 19:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Comments on using C++ instead of C Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have never programmed for Unix before and am about to start a small project. I was wondering if there are any advantages of using C over C++. Does the compiler that comes with FreeBSD do C++? I tried compiling a trivial C++ program using gcc and it failed. Must one send a parameter to gcc to tell it the code is C++? From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 18:15:44 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA08433 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA08428 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA02284; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 12:45:33 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612290215.MAA02284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Comments on using C++ instead of C In-Reply-To: <199612290152.UAA28924@revelstone.jvm.com> from Francisco Reyes at "Dec 28, 96 07:04:38 pm" To: francisco@natserv.com Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 12:45:33 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes stands accused of saying: > I have never programmed for Unix before and am about to start a small > project. I was wondering if there are any advantages of using C over > C++. Erk. Don't start another language war. Use whichever language you are most comfortable with. > Does the compiler that comes with FreeBSD do C++? I tried compiling a > trivial C++ program using gcc and it failed. Must one send a parameter > to gcc to tell it the code is C++? You can either : - Name your files correctly (.c for C, .cc or .C for C++) - Call the compiler as 'g++' Personally, I recommend using a Makefile like : PROG= foo SRCS= foo.cc NOMAN= yes LDADD= -lg++ COPTS= -g .include ... which knows everything required to build your C++ program. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 18:47:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA09878 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (sdev.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA09872 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.4/8.6.9) id NAA02988; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 13:46:36 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 13:46:36 +1100 From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: francisco@natserv.com (Francisco Reyes) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSd Chat list) Subject: Re: Comments on using C++ instead of C References: <199612290152.UAA28924@revelstone.jvm.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.54 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199612290152.UAA28924@revelstone.jvm.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Dec 28, 1996 19:04:38 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes writes: > I have never programmed for Unix before and am about to start a small > project. I was wondering if there are any advantages of using C over > C++. Different strokes. The environment supports both - enough said really - comparing C/C++ is like comparing any two languages available for a given platform. I tend to look at the task before deciding on which language to use - there is no answer that is "right" all the time. A lot depends on your relative skills in each language too. gcc 2.7.2(.1) provides reasonable support for C++, but not quite "up to date" with the moving target that is the ANSI C++ draft standard. > Does the compiler that comes with FreeBSD do C++? Yes. > I tried compiling a trivial C++ program using gcc and it > failed. Must one send a parameter to gcc to tell it the > code is C++? Name it .cc, .cxx, .cpp, .C or use -xc++ to force compilation as C++. "info gcc" for the documentation. Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freefall.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 18:50:50 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA10080 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA10075 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA02609; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:50:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612290250.SAA02609@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Branson Matheson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX97 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:46:13 PST." <8183.851805973@time.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:50:25 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Both David and I will be there. David might even give the BOF this >year, since he's never done it solo.. :-) True, but the Usenix BOF in New Orleans that was done by both of us was so lengthy that it could easily have been considered as two - one from each of us. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 19:25:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA10956 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA10951 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA02416; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 13:55:38 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612290325.NAA02416@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Comments on using C++ instead of C In-Reply-To: from David Nugent at "Dec 29, 96 01:46:36 pm" To: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 13:55:37 +1030 (CST) Cc: francisco@natserv.com, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > Name it .cc, .cxx, .cpp, .C or use -xc++ to force compilation > as C++. "info gcc" for the documentation. Avoid .cpp (despite Borland et. al using it) as this is traditionally used for C preprocessor food. .cc .cxx and .C are all recognised OK by the BSD makefiles. > David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 19:28:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA11065 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA11049; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:28:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612290328.TAA11049@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: USENIX97 To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:28:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, branson@belgrath.widomaker.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612290250.SAA02609@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 28, 96 06:50:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > > >Both David and I will be there. David might even give the BOF this > >year, since he's never done it solo.. :-) > > True, but the Usenix BOF in New Orleans that was done by both of us was so > lengthy that it could easily have been considered as two - one from each of > us. :-) that makes four of us at least, davidg, jkh, branson and myself anyone else gonna be there? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 20:32:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12947 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc180.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.180]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA12936 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA08718; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:36:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:36:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612290436.VAA08718@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX97 In-Reply-To: <199612290328.TAA11049@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199612290250.SAA02609@root.com> <199612290328.TAA11049@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Where is USENIX97? I've been off in embedded-world for a year now, and can only tell you about Embedded Systems Conference these days. I might make it if I can fly there for $100 or less. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 20:39:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA13142 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA13135 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA12391; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:25 -0800 (PST) To: dg@root.com cc: Branson Matheson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX97 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:50:25 PST." <199612290250.SAA02609@root.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:39:24 -0800 Message-ID: <12382.851834364@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > True, but the Usenix BOF in New Orleans that was done by both of us was so > lengthy that it could easily have been considered as two - one from each of > us. :-) Good point. I guess I'll do it this year.. :-) Jordan