From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 00:23:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21691 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21683 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA05051; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:22:37 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:22:37 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > Someone just dumped a couple of interesting-looking computers on me, and > they're both one cable short of working, so I thought I'd ask around and > see if anyone has ever hear of this fairly weird one. > > The computers are DEC 5000-120's, they both have 19" color monitors (which > makes them dandy for working into my FreeBSD box!) but they both need thos > odd cable that combines the mouse and the keyboard (and a B/W monitor > cable, which I won't use) into one, umm, I think 15 pin D connector. > > I need twoof these weird cables. Anyone know where they could be gotten? Those were also used on old VAXstations (MicroVAX II and 3100 series). You may have a separate mouse/keyboard connector too, which would make the problem easier (the 3100s had). There are also RGB versions you can use (use only the green connector for a B/W screen).I think I can find a couple of those cables here, but we're abit too far apart for it to be practical. Anyhow, look aroung old VAXstations. > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD > (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > > Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 03:51:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA27782 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA27776 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA15375; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:50:54 -0700 (PDT) To: dave@SEINC.NET cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Wiredbrain.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:50:53 -0700 Message-ID: <15371.860928653@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear David, I notice that you're listed as both the technical contact for wiredbrain.com and vcity.net, their primary DNS. I don't know what your affliliation is with Mr. Pflaum is, but I can tell you that a LOT of people on the net are up in arms about the guy and that both of you are about to be the target of a letter-writing and complaint campaign the likes of which hasn't been seen since Cantor & Siegel. Since you may be an innocent bystander in all of this, I just thought I'd give you fair warning and perhaps a chance to explain your affiliation so that I can take you off the "black list" of people who will be receiving "nasty grams" in connection with all of this. Please don't underestimate the size of this mobilization against Dr. Pflaum - he has been spamming people for months with his idiotic newsletter (and frankly, I cannot understand his motivation at all - what sane person would go to so much trouble to inflict his half-baked opinions on such an unwilling audience?) and literally thousands of people are seriously sick of it. We are also prepared to go to any lengths to see him stopped, including phone calls to any and all providers associated with him (and I don't just mean _one_ phone call - we shall continue to call and email until some action results), registration with the various "anti-spam" task forces, you name it. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes at all. :-) Please take this seriously - we're not just a bunch of college kids sitting around trying to think up a new crusade. We're Internet "old-timers" who do not like to see the kind of self-serving crap that Dr. Pflaum has been dishing out, and we will not stop until we've seen the very last "wiredbrain" newsletter land in our mailboxes. Thank you, and if you truly are an innocent bystander in all this then I apologise in advance for the tone of this letter (though I'd still recommend that you run away from your current affiliation as his technical contact with all due speed). Regards, Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 04:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00751 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 04:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00746 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 04:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA21056; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15827; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:56:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Nadav Eiron cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Nadav Eiron wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > Someone just dumped a couple of interesting-looking computers on me, and > > they're both one cable short of working, so I thought I'd ask around and > > see if anyone has ever hear of this fairly weird one. > > > > The computers are DEC 5000-120's, they both have 19" color monitors (which > > makes them dandy for working into my FreeBSD box!) but they both need thos > > odd cable that combines the mouse and the keyboard (and a B/W monitor > > cable, which I won't use) into one, umm, I think 15 pin D connector. > > > > I need twoof these weird cables. Anyone know where they could be gotten? > > Those were also used on old VAXstations (MicroVAX II and 3100 series). You > may have a separate mouse/keyboard connector too, which would make the > problem easier (the 3100s had). There are also RGB versions you can use > (use only the green connector for a B/W screen).I think I can find a > couple of those cables here, but we're abit too far apart for it to be > practical. Anyhow, look aroung old VAXstations. Thanks, but I think it's just slightly more complicated. A friend here locally had a cable like that and brought it over, and it didn't work. They keyboard that comes with the 5000/120 has a RJ45 connector (8 position wide connector, altho only 4 pinds used) while the older cable he had had a RJ11 connector (6 pin connector, which is somewhat thinner, and still only 4 [ins used). His keyboard did not seem to want to talk to my system. > > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > > chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > > 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | > > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD > > (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > > > > > Nadav > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 09:06:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11812 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11805 for chat; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:06:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704131606.JAA11805@freefall.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: http://www2.service.digital.com/DECsewp/catalog/sbc.html Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Did anyone say that Alpha boxes had to be expensive? ($589,- for a Single-Board Computer AXPpci board - 21066 @ 166Mhz) Porting is tempting... Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 16:54:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01703 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01697 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA18625 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:54:48 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Speaking of SPAM, looks like I got an "award" :-) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:54:48 -0700 Message-ID: <18621.860975688@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, OK, it wasn't exactly "spam" in those days, but... Those who are curious can search dejanews for "First Irregular Usenet Spam Olympics" "Sigh..." :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 16:58:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01930 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.de ([203.239.92.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01904; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id SAA01139; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:28:24 +0900 (KST) From: grog@lemis.de Message-Id: <199704130928.SAA01139@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Informix efficiency--any ideas? In-Reply-To: <199704110211.LAA08433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Apr 11, 97 11:41:45 am" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:28:23 +0900 (KST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Reply-to: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > grog@lemis.de stands accused of saying: >> >>> TBH, I don't know how the various SMP implementations would come into >>> play here; specifically on the send/recv model I would expect >>> (assuming an idle system) that one half would be running on each CPU, >>> ie. the long-term throughput would be that of the slowest component >>> rather than of the system as a whole. In contrast, the lock-step >>> model using semaphores basically ensures that a single client/server >>> pair runs as a single logical thread. >> >> Now that's an interesting thought. Basically, the socket >> implementation doesn't even need to be as fast as the semaphore >> implementation (*if* you're restricting your semaphore counter to 1. >> IIRC, you can have more than one on System V), since it can queue. >> That might explain why we were getting up to 30% idle on System A. > > I would expect that the server would only use multiple semaphores if > it could guarantee the order in which it woke on them, as otherwise > there could be problems with transaction ordering. My understanding is that the semaphores are required to ensure that the requestor and the server don't tread all over each other in shared memory. >> In the meantime, we have found some more documentation. It seems that >> there are "protocols" for talking to the server. One is called >> tlitcp, and the other is called ipcshm. System A was using ipcshm, >> and system B was using tlitcp, so now we're repeting a (longer, more >> accurate) benchmark the other way round. > > I would expect that the TLI/TCP interface will be much more efficient > in the SMP context than the IPC/SHM interface, simply because by nature > it will offer better decoupling between the client and server. > Could be wrong, of course 8) Looks like you are. Sure, if you want to run up a queue, TLI or sockets (on machine B) sound better than a lock-step semaphore business. But in this case, it's just the primitive of letting the server or the requestor know when the data is available. On the down side, going through the TCP and IP stack just to pass a local message is relatively inefficient. > It would be _very_ informative to be able to run this benchmark on a > well-configured SMP FreeBSD system, as I understand that Informix runs > well under the SCO emulation. I would imagine that the SMP Mips > systems you are looking at would be a lot more expensive 8) Indeed it would. I have an Oracle CD-ROM which has been floating around for a while waiting for me to take a look. Want to borrow it? > (ps. what do you think of Viewsonic's 21" monitors? They're reasonably > available around here...) Well, I've heard the name... what are the specs like, and what do they cost? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 18:01:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06259 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.de ([203.239.92.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06253; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id JAA00556; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:41:59 +0900 (KST) From: grog@lemis.de Message-Id: <199704140041.JAA00556@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook submitters.sgml In-Reply-To: <19970413022257.FP37376@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 13, 97 02:22:57 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:41:58 +0900 (KST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Reply-to: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As David O'Brien wrote: > >>> (Well, i found it at least funny to finally see the pic of wcarchive.) >> >> Hey man! :-) Are these Net available??? > > Sure, on www.cdrom.com. There's an option to look at the server > configuration (used to be there for quite some time now), and last > time i was looking, i've been surprised to see a photo now as well. How about a URL? It's really difficult fighting your way through a maze of twisty little web pages, all different. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 18:15:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06802 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06797 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07887; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:15:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: grog@lemis.de cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook submitters.sgml In-Reply-To: <199704140041.JAA00556@papillon.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 grog@lemis.de wrote: > J Wunsch writes: > > As David O'Brien wrote: > > > >>> (Well, i found it at least funny to finally see the pic of wcarchive.) > >> > >> Hey man! :-) Are these Net available??? > > > > Sure, on www.cdrom.com. There's an option to look at the server > > configuration (used to be there for quite some time now), and last > > time i was looking, i've been surprised to see a photo now as well. > > How about a URL? It's really difficult fighting your way through a > maze of twisty little web pages, all different. http://www.cdrom.com/archive/wcarc.htm Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 20:05:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11213 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11207 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-181.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.181]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA03802 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704140305.XAA03802@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 22:05:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.91 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Suggestion for computer Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Any suggestions for a FreeBSD friendly computer VAR/reseller/store? I am looking to buy a new computer in a month or two. I am going to be running: FreeBSD, OS/2, Win95 and possibly NT. At one point someone suggested Rodney Grimes and I got a price list from him, but I sent a message to the email address I had from last year and got no response. I tried taking a peak at the list of vendors at www.freebsd.org, but thought may be better to get someone recommended from this list. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 20:53:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12911 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12902 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsampley.vip.best.com (bsampley.vip.best.com [206.184.160.196]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA22404; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:50:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Burton Sampley To: Francisco Reyes cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Suggestion for computer In-Reply-To: <199704140305.XAA03802@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Depends on where you're located. I can think of many good places here in the SF Bay Area. For a FBSD friendly system I would definitely NOT buy a prebuilt package. I would hand select the best components and then shop around and find the best deal on the individual parts. It's not very difficult to build up a good, inexpensive system. I would also recommend sacrificing CPU speed for more memory. I recently upgraded my hardware from a P5-60 to a P5-133. I think I paid $145 for the P5-133, the same shop wanted around $600 for the P5-200MMX. Oh, BTW, if you have the cash go with SCSI over EIDE. I wish I would have. I can give you more specific recommendations on hardware, if you want. I would stay away from Compaque and other such prebuilt systems. I have been following FBSD-questions for a few months now. I have seen many questions/problems with Compaque systems and FBSD. On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Any suggestions for a FreeBSD friendly computer VAR/reseller/store? > I am looking to buy a new computer in a month or two. I am going to be > running: > FreeBSD, OS/2, Win95 and possibly NT. > > At one point someone suggested Rodney Grimes and I got a price list > from him, but I sent a message to the email address I had from last > year and got no response. > > I tried taking a peak at the list of vendors at www.freebsd.org, but > thought may be better to get someone recommended from this list. > > --- Brought to you by a 100% Micro$oft free system. You too can disinfect your system at http://www.freebsd.org E-Mail: burton@bsampley.vip.best.com Alternate E-Mail: bsampley@haywire.csuhayward.edu Home Page: http://www.best.com/~bsampley (permanently under construction) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 13 21:57:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14882 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup1.gaffaneys.com [134.129.252.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14877 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02652; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:57:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Zach Heilig Message-ID: <19970413235754.54566@murkwood.gaffaneys.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:57:54 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Red River of the North update. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We are recovering quite nicely from the storm last weekend, those workers from the various power cooperatives (probably close to 1000 workers total) basically have most of the close to 10,000 broken poles and the several hundred major power structures [mostly metal towers for high voltage lines] replaced, and very few people are still without power. Most of the radio stations came back Saturday, and the two that had been on the air with generators got their main power back on Friday. There are still at least two TV stations without any way to transmit their signal. The tallest structure in North America (perhaps world?... it was over 2100 feet high, 2147 feet, if I recall correctly) was toppled in the storm... It was the transmitting tower for one of the TV stations in this area. Now, the major concern around here is the rising water (close to 44 feet, the tops of the dikes are between 42 and 49 feet). 49 feet is still the expected crest sometime during April 19-21. We are ready for 50 or 51 feet of water, just in case. The water probably won't go below flood stage [28 feet] before sometime in early to mid May. It may not get down to "normal" at all this year [13 feet]. The record flood in this century is 48.8 feet [1979], and the all time recorded record is 50.?? feet [1897]. Nobody is really for sure that all the problems with the water getting so high have been taken care of, since the water hasn't been that high in recent times. The Emergency Operations Officials are being extremely conservative, so there shouldn't be too many problems. But, as an example of what might happen: In 1979, nobody realized they should close the valve in one of the storm sewers, so the river blew the cover off the man-hole and sprayed several feet in the air. They fixed the problem by taking a truck full of concrete, and dumping the concrete in the man-hole. Due to the floods in the 1960's and 1970's, we now have a 300+ page document that details what has to be done to protect against certain flood levels as the water rises. The area close to the river is just about exactly like a battle zone. There are military checkpoint guards keeping those who don't have any business near the dikes away. There have been a few cases of people actually sabotaging the sandbags on top the dikes, so the national guard that are patrolling them have their M-16's with live ammo as a deterant [appearantly it's a pretty big deal for them to actually carry live ammo]. One of my friends who was activated a couple weeks ago said he wasn't sure what exactly they were supposed to do with those M-16's [they are probably just for looks, I wouldn't want to test that theory]. There is a $500 fine for tampering with the sandbags. If they let civilians patrol the dikes as they have in previous years, I'll be volunteering, and bringing my camera along to snap some pictures from the top of the 49 foot dikes. It is really sobering when you realize the water would currently be at roof level for two-story houses for large areas of both cities [Greater Grand Forks and East Grand Forks] if the dikes were to break. There are already several building completely under water [but nobody cares about them... they are build so the water really doesn't affect them...]. I have some pictures from last year, but they will be nothing compared to what I can get this year. -- Zach Heilig (zach@blizzard.gaffaneys.com) | ALL unsolicited commercial email | is unwelcome. I avoid dealing | with companies that email ads. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 00:00:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21484 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.ukrv.de (gatekeeper.ukrv.de [193.175.72.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21477 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gatekeeper.ukrv.de; (5.65/1.1.8.2/17Oct95-0336PM) id AA15482; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:00:19 +0200 Received: from mailhost(193.175.66.33) by gatekeeper.ukrv.de via smap (V1.3-JSC) id sma009154; Mon Apr 14 09:00:05 1997 Received: from merlin.ukrv.de by mailhost.ukrv.de; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Mar95-0213PM) id AA24212; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:00:04 +0200 Received: by merlin.ukrv.de (4.1/UKRV-Gen PCG 0.1) id AA04950; Mon, 14 Apr 97 09:00:04 +0200 From: Udo Wolter Message-Id: <9704140700.AA04950@merlin.ukrv.de> Subject: FreeBSDers met in Berlin yesterday In-Reply-To: <16650.860749331@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 11, 97 02:02:11 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:00:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: de-bsd-chat@blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi ! > > Love, Peace and Harmony > > > > So what ? We're a Hippie band indeed ! :-))) > > Uh huh, sure. Show us the rest of the lyrics, Udo! :-) Nope. I don't know them anymore although I wrote them...:-) By the way, another example to prove that we're a Hippie band: I were at the opening of a club named "Geschlossene Anstalt". I think in English it means "memtal home" or "closed establishment" ? The band who was playing called themselves "Die Untoten" which means "The living Dead". It was a real nice evening: skins, punks & goths in one room (the last time I've seen those 3 groups in one room must be in the early 80s), and almost no trouble (just one beating between a skin and a punk, but the skin gets thrown out of the club). The band really was NO Hippie band. They played extremely loud and fast and even Motoerhead are a Hippie band compared with this crap. By the way: There was no FreeBSD-machine in the room, not even a Linux-machine, not even a DOS-machine, not even a machine ! Everything was analog ! This is a very good feeling, after sitting the whole day in the digital world ! Bye, Udo -- Udo Wolter, email: uwp@cs.tu-berlin.de !!! LOW-TECH Page: http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~uwp/low-tech.html !!! From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 02:15:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA27964 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA27956 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id MAA12719 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:16:34 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704140916.MAA12719@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ?? In-Reply-To: <21901.860861569@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 12, 97 09:12:49 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:16:34 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Though my personal favorite remains: "668 - Next door neighbor of the beast"] reminds me. i have 3 full digits in my tower, i tried to make it to display 666, apparently fucked up. it's now 688, and i dont bother to try to get it fixed... anyway, i'm sure it's the fastest freebsd-current on the planet. :p > Jordan mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 02:24:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA28590 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA28541 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA23361 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:21:26 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id LAA20808; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:23:00 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00023; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:22:59 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:22:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > Someone just dumped a couple of interesting-looking computers on me, and > they're both one cable short of working, so I thought I'd ask around and > see if anyone has ever hear of this fairly weird one. > > The computers are DEC 5000-120's, they both have 19" color monitors (which > makes them dandy for working into my FreeBSD box!) but they both need thos > odd cable that combines the mouse and the keyboard (and a B/W monitor > cable, which I won't use) into one, umm, I think 15 pin D connector. > > I need two of these weird cables. Anyone know where they could be gotten? BTW, is there a way to attach a SUN Type 5 keyboard with mouse to a normal PC (maybe with the help of a PS/2 connector) ?? I really like the quality of this keyboards and would enjoy having one on my FreeBSD machine at home. Any ideas or soldering tips ? Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 03:07:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00644 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00634 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id TAA26510; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:37:19 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141007.TAA26510@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: from Christoph Haas at "Apr 14, 97 11:22:58 am" To: haas@willi.lion.de (Christoph Haas) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:37:18 +0930 (CST) Cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > > BTW, is there a way to attach a SUN Type 5 keyboard with mouse to a normal > PC (maybe with the help of a PS/2 connector) ?? I really like the quality > of this keyboards and would enjoy having one on my FreeBSD machine at > home. If all you want to do is "connect" it, I recommend a few feet of duct tape. If you want to _interface_ it, then you are going to have to write your own keyboard interface driver, and you will need a logic/RS-232 level inverter. You should be able to get the basic keyboard protocol and keymap from the NetBSD/Sparc keyboard driver. > Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 04:20:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05152 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05146 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA24549; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:17:56 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id NAA21808; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:19:31 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00782; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:18:50 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:18:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: Michael Smith Cc: Christoph Haas , FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: <199704141007.TAA26510@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > If you want to _interface_ it, then you are going to have to write your > own keyboard interface driver, and you will need a logic/RS-232 level > inverter. So a SUN uses a simple RS232 interface to attach its keyboard ? > You should be able to get the basic keyboard protocol and keymap from > the NetBSD/Sparc keyboard driver. Yeah, i'll look at it asap. Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 04:41:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06326 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06321 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA27032; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:11:33 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141141.VAA27032@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: from Christoph Haas at "Apr 14, 97 01:18:50 pm" To: haas@willi.lion.de (Christoph Haas) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:11:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, haas@willi.lion.de, FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > If you want to _interface_ it, then you are going to have to write your > > own keyboard interface driver, and you will need a logic/RS-232 level > > inverter. > > So a SUN uses a simple RS232 interface to attach its keyboard ? Yup, like many sensible workstation vendors, a real, async serial protocol. None of this clocked bidirectional two-wire sync crap 8) I'm not sure what baudrate, as the Sparc driver just reads whatever the firmware, but its 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit as far as I can tell. > > You should be able to get the basic keyboard protocol and keymap from > > the NetBSD/Sparc keyboard driver. > > Yeah, i'll look at it asap. You'll want src/sys/arch/sparc/dev/kbd.c and zs.c, just FYI. > Christoph -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 04:57:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06968 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06963 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA24876; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:54:45 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id NAA22306; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:56:17 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01127; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:56:17 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:56:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: Michael Smith Cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: <199704141141.VAA27032@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > So a SUN uses a simple RS232 interface to attach its keyboard ? > > Yup, like many sensible workstation vendors, a real, async serial > protocol. None of this clocked bidirectional two-wire sync crap 8) > > I'm not sure what baudrate, as the Sparc driver just reads whatever > the firmware, but its 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit as far as I can > tell. Great, thanks a bunch. And if you can tell me the pinout of the keyborad's mini DIN connector I'll invite you to a pint of Guiness (or whatever beer you prefer) ;-) > You'll want src/sys/arch/sparc/dev/kbd.c and zs.c, just FYI. Thanks, I think I've to visit ftp.netbsd.org in the next couple of hours. Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 05:22:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA08152 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA08147 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA27266; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:19 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141222.VAA27266@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: from Christoph Haas at "Apr 14, 97 01:56:17 pm" To: haas@willi.lion.de (Christoph Haas) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > > > > I'm not sure what baudrate, as the Sparc driver just reads whatever > > the firmware, but its 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit as far as I can > > tell. > > Great, thanks a bunch. And if you can tell me the pinout of the keyborad's > mini DIN connector I'll invite you to a pint of Guiness (or whatever beer > you prefer) ;-) The pinout of the DIN-8 connector (female, on the CPU) is: 7 1 GND 5 TxDA (Keyboard) 8 6 2 GND 6 RxDA (Keyboard) 5 4 3 3 Vcc 7 TxDB (Mouse) 2 1 4 RxDB (Mouse) 8 Vcc The airfare is on you. 8) (http://www.picarefy.com/~ftp/Sun-Hardware-Ref/parts/part5) > Christoph -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 07:01:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14713 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14707 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4) id KAA03505 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:01:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199704141401.KAA03505@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: HP "ports" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:01:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is an example of the weekly report mailed out by the HP porting folks, they use a nifty graphical interface tool to retrieve and install the software, although you can drop back to ftp/web. Its really extremely well done, our porting folks might want to take a look at them for ideas to steal :) ==== New packages on the Software And Porting Archive Centre in the last week ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Package: xmcd 2.1 Directory: /hpux/X11/Misc/xmcd-2.1 Date: 12 Apr 1997 Author: Ti Kan Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/contrib/ Install tree: /opt/xmcd Static bin: xmcd-2.1-sa-10.10.depot.gz (1.49 MB) Dynamic bin: xmcd-2.1-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 286 K) Source code: xmcd-2.1-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 394 K) Description: Plays audio CDs on a CD ROM drive using a Motif interface. Displays a front panel similar to a domestic CD player and allows A->B repeat amongst other CD player features. It can also store track and disc title information in a database and recall the information at a later date. This release comes with a program to convert WorkMan databases into xmcd format. A large CD database for xmcd is available separately in this category. This release now includes a command-line/curses user interface as well as a graphical one. Package: xacursor 1.0 Directory: /hpux/X11/Demos/xacursor-1.0 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Kam-Hung WONG Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/contrib/ Install tree: /opt/xacursor Static bin: xacursor-1.0-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 301 K) Static bin: xacursor-1.0-sa-9.03.upd.gz ( 267 K) Dynamic bin: xacursor-1.0-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 11 K) Dynamic bin: xacursor-1.0-sd-9.03.upd.gz ( 12 K) Source code: xacursor-1.0-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 90 K) Source code: xacursor-1.0-ss-9.03.tar.gz ( 90 K) Description: Set an animated cursor in a window. Upon execution, the cursor will be changed to a musical note, the window then selected by the user will have its cursor changed to an animated one, using the paths of the cursor bitmap files listed in -file. If the -r option is specified, the cursor of the root window will be changed. Package: xball 3.0 Directory: /hpux/X11/Demos/xball-3.0 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: David Nedde Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/contrib/ Install tree: /opt/xball Static bin: xball-3.0-sa-10.10.depot.gz (1.09 MB) Static bin: xball-3.0-sa-9.03.upd.gz (1000 K) Dynamic bin: xball-3.0-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 35 K) Dynamic bin: xball-3.0-sd-9.03.upd.gz ( 41 K) Source code: xball-3.0-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 68 K) Source code: xball-3.0-ss-8.07.tar.gz ( 67 K) Source code: xball-3.0-ss-9.03.tar.gz ( 68 K) Description: Bounce coloured balls inside a Motif window. Allows the creation of coloured 3D shaded balls, which can be bounced around a window with adjustable elasticity and gravity. There is extensive on-line help and also the ability to automate a demo via a simple scripting language. Package: floatbg 1.0 Directory: /hpux/X11/Demos/floatbg-1.0 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Jan Rekers Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/ Install tree: /opt/floatbg Static bin: floatbg-1.0-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 287 K) Static bin: floatbg-1.0-sa-9.03.upd.gz ( 252 K) Dynamic bin: floatbg-1.0-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 8 K) Dynamic bin: floatbg-1.0-sd-9.03.upd.gz ( 7 K) Source code: floatbg-1.0-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 32 K) Source code: floatbg-1.0-ss-9.03.tar.gz ( 32 K) Description: Slowly modifies the colour of the root-window. You wont be able to see the colour change, but after a quarter of an hour, you will notice that it did change, however. Package: xballs 1.00 Directory: /hpux/X11/Demos/xballs-1.00 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Bernard Hatt Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/ Install tree: /opt/xballs Static bin: xballs-1.00-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 287 K) Static bin: xballs-1.00-sa-9.03.upd.gz ( 254 K) Dynamic bin: xballs-1.00-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 10 K) Dynamic bin: xballs-1.00-sd-9.03.upd.gz ( 10 K) Source code: xballs-1.00-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 5 K) Source code: xballs-1.00-ss-8.07.tar.gz ( 4 K) Source code: xballs-1.00-ss-9.03.tar.gz ( 5 K) Description: A root window bouncing balls demo for X11. The number of balls and their radius may, amongst other things, be specified and the path of the balls can be altered using the mouse. Package: teTeX_lib 0.4pl8 Directory: /hpux/Text/teTeX_lib-0.4pl8 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Thomas Esser Original URL: ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/comp/tex/teTeX/distrib /sources/ Install tree: /opt/teTeX Dynamic bin: teTeX_lib-0.4pl8-sd-10.10.depot.gz (9.07 MB) Source code: teTeX_lib-0.4pl8-ss-10.10.tar.gz (9.04 MB) Description: The fonts, macros, etc distribution for teTeX. This must be installed in order to build teTeX. TeTeX is a complete TeX distribution for UNIX compatible systems. Package: b1cisi 1.2 Directory: /hpux/Maths/Misc/b1cisi-1.2 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Prof. Barry W. Brown Original URL: ftp://odin.mdacc.tmc.edu/ Install tree: /opt/b1cisi Static bin: b1cisi-1.2-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 171 K) Dynamic bin: b1cisi-1.2-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 35 K) Source code: b1cisi-1.2-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 45 K) Description: Single-stage binomial one group confidence intervals. B1CISI finds confidence intervals for single-stage trials involving a single group which have a binomial outcome. The confidence intervals are calculated by the Clopper and Pearson method (Biometrika 26, 404). Package: fvwm 2.0.45 Directory: /hpux/X11/Misc/fvwm-2.0.45 Date: 10 Apr 1997 Author: Charles Hines Original URL: http://www.hpc.uh.edu/fvwm/ Install tree: /opt/fvwm Dependencies: xpm Static bin: fvwm-2.0.45-sa-10.10.depot.gz (3.77 MB) Dynamic bin: fvwm-2.0.45-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 112 K) Source code: fvwm-2.0.45-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 804 K) Description: Multiple virtual desktop window manager for X11. Fvwm is a derivative of twm, redesigned to minimise memory consumption, provide a 3-D look to window frames, and provide a simple virtual desktop. Fvwm provides multiple virtual desktops for users who wish to use them. It also has xpm extensions to provide colour icons. Note: this the latest beta release to date. The first official version will be 2.1.0. Package: xmodem 3.9 Directory: /hpux/Users/xmodem-3.9 Date: 9 Apr 1997 Author: David Brooks Original URL: ftp://ftp.ee.duke.edu/archives/ Install tree: /opt/xmodem Static bin: xmodem-3.9-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 98 K) Static bin: xmodem-3.9-sa-9.05.upd.gz ( 77 K) Dynamic bin: xmodem-3.9-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 30 K) Dynamic bin: xmodem-3.9-sd-9.05.upd.gz ( 29 K) Source code: xmodem-3.9-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 40 K) Source code: xmodem-3.9-ss-8.07.tar.gz ( 85 K) Source code: xmodem-3.9-ss-9.05.tar.gz ( 85 K) Description: Transfer files between Unix systems and microcomputers. The xmodem program implements the Christensen (XMODEM) file transfer protocol. It also supports the XMODEM/CRC protocol, the MODEM7 batch protocol, the XMODEM-1K block protocol, the YMODEM batch protocol and the YMODEM-G streaming protocol. Package: snarf 1.23b7 Directory: /hpux/Networking/FTP/snarf-1.23b7 Date: 9 Apr 1997 Author: Zachary Beane Original URL: ftp://ftp.mint.net/pub/linux/src Install tree: /opt/snarf Static bin: snarf-1.23b7-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 104 K) Dynamic bin: snarf-1.23b7-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 21 K) Source code: snarf-1.23b7-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 44 K) Description: A utility to retrieve internet documents. This can be via the http, finger, ftp, and gopher protocols.Support for ftp resume and HTTP/ftp proxy servers is also present. Snarf is invoked with at least one argument, either a fully qualified URL or an alias from your personal .snarfrc file. Snarf then requests the remote file and saves it locally. Package: mm 2.7 Directory: /hpux/Networking/Mail/mm-2.7 Date: 9 Apr 1997 Author: Nathaniel Borenstein Original URL: ftp://thumper.bellcore.com/pib/nsb/ Install tree: /opt/mm Static bin: mm-2.7-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 572 K) Dynamic bin: mm-2.7-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 157 K) Source code: mm-2.7-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 157 K) Source code: mm-2.7-ss-9.01.tar.gz ( 202 K) Description: Implementation of Multipurpose Internet Mail Extension. This is becoming the international standard for multimedia and structured electronic mail. These tools can be used enhance most common mailers to handle particular types of multimedia mail. Package: xtmines 1.2.1 Directory: /hpux/Games/Arcade/xtmines-1.2.1 Date: 9 Apr 1997 Author: Timothy K. Tsai Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/contrib/ Install tree: /opt/xtmines Static bin: xtmines-1.2.1-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 320 K) Dynamic bin: xtmines-1.2.1-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 22 K) Source code: xtmines-1.2.1-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 35 K) Source code: xtmines-1.2.1-ss-9.01.tar.gz ( 35 K) Description: Yet another X11 minefield game. As usual, you must navigate a minefield where bombs are hidden - you are told their proximity and must avoid treading on them. The game keeps a high score table and has a ranking system too. Package: xdvi 1.20 Directory: /hpux/Text/xdvi-1.20 Date: 9 Apr 1997 Author: Paul Vojta and others Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/contrib/applications/ Install tree: /opt/xdvi Static bin: xdvi-1.20-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 510 K) Dynamic bin: xdvi-1.20-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 87 K) Source code: xdvi-1.20-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 130 K) Source code: xdvi-1.20-ss-9.03.tar.gz ( 130 K) Description: Previews DVI files, such as those produced by TeX. Provides magnification at different factors, a magnifying glass and keyboard shortcuts. This version also correctly supports anti-aliased grey-scaling. Package: par 1.5.0 Directory: /hpux/Text/par-1.5.0 Date: 8 Apr 1997 Author: Adam M. Costello Original URL: http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~amc/Par/ Install tree: /opt/par Static bin: par-1.5.0-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 82 K) Dynamic bin: par-1.5.0-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 43 K) Source code: par-1.5.0-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 59 K) Description: A filter which changes white characters to spaces etc. Paragraphs are separated by protected, blank, and bodiless lines, and optionally delimited by indentation. Par has an advanced set of formatting options. Package: multiverse 1.02 Directory: /hpux/Games/Networking/multiverse-1.02 Date: 8 Apr 1997 Author: Robert Grant Original URL: ftp://ftp.x.org/ Install tree: /opt/multiverse Static bin: multiverse-1.02-sa-10.10.depot.gz (1.76 MB) Dynamic bin: multiverse-1.02-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 210 K) Source code: multiverse-1.02-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 278 K) Source code: multiverse-1.02-ss-9.01.tar.gz ( 275 K) Description: Multiplayer game in virtual world. Multiverse is a multi-user X based Virtual Reality system. It uses a client-server based model and includes two ready built worlds. Dogfight is a basic space shoot-em-up where players fly biwing fighters around finding others to shoot at! Dactyl is a greatly simplified version of the arcade game Dactyl Nightmare. Package: pine 3.96 Directory: /hpux/Networking/Mail/pine-3.96 Date: 8 Apr 1997 Author: Laurence Lundblade, Mike Seibel, Mark Crispin Original URL: ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/ Install tree: /opt/pine Static bin: pine-3.96-sa-10.10.depot.gz (1.42 MB) Dynamic bin: pine-3.96-sd-10.10.depot.gz (1.02 MB) Source code: pine-3.96-ss-10.10.tar.gz (2.12 MB) Description: Another interactive mail system using curses. Provides a fairly easy way of reading, sending, replying and forwarding electronic mail. The Pico editor is also supplied as part of this package. Pine is a revamp of an earlier version of Elm and was designed to be easier to use. It also has built-in support for MIME extensions. Package: BIGdict 1.0 Directory: /hpux/Sysadmin/BIGdict-1.0 Date: 8 Apr 1997 Author: N/A Original URL: ftp://ftp.uu.net/ Install tree: /opt/BIGdict Dynamic bin: BIGdict-1.0-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 159 K) Source code: BIGdict-1.0-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 158 K) Description: An extremely comprehensive and large dictionary. Companion to the Crack password cracker. Includes all sorts of unusual key combinations. See also ULRdict (which is NOT the same as this dictionary). Package: xbiff++ 2.1 Directory: /hpux/Networking/Mail/xbiff++-2.1 Date: 7 Apr 1997 Author: Jim Fulton <> Original URL: ftp://ftp.doc.ic.ac.uk/Mirrors/ftp.x.org/contrib/applications/ Install tree: /opt/xbiff++ Static bin: xbiff++-2.1-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 374 K) Dynamic bin: xbiff++-2.1-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 54 K) Source code: xbiff++-2.1-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 151 K) Description: Mailbox flagger for X Windows. The flag is activated when new mail is received. The interval between mail checks and the optional use of the X Shape extension can be specified. This release can now optionally play sound samples when new mail is received. Package: moxftp 2.2 Directory: /hpux/Networking/FTP/moxftp-2.2 Date: 7 Apr 1997 Author: Bill Jones Original URL: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/debian/bo/source/net / Install tree: /opt/moxftp Static bin: moxftp-2.2-sa-10.10.depot.gz (1.30 MB) Dynamic bin: moxftp-2.2-sd-10.10.depot.gz (1.30 MB) Source code: moxftp-2.2-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 897 K) Source code: moxftp-2.2-ss-9.01.tar.gz ( 625 K) Description: This is a Motif front end for ftp. It allows retrieval and transmission of selected files and directory trees. It also allows control over both local and remote directory structures and can view remote text files even if they are in compressed format. Package: pcomm 2.0.2 Directory: /hpux/Misc/pcomm-2.0.2 Date: 7 Apr 1997 Author: Emmet P. Gray Original URL: ftp://ftp.cc.utexas.edu/source/comm/ Install tree: /opt/pcomm Static bin: pcomm-2.0.2-sa-10.10.depot.gz ( 329 K) Dynamic bin: pcomm-2.0.2-sd-10.10.depot.gz ( 124 K) Source code: pcomm-2.0.2-ss-10.10.tar.gz ( 139 K) Description: A unix look alike of the popular ProComm MSDOS program. This telecommunications program understands the following file transfer protocols:- xmodem, xmodem-1k, modem7, ymodem, ymodem-g, ASCII and zmodem. Pcomm can also use an external program such as Kermit to transfer files. ProComm (TM) is copyrighted by Datastorm Technologies, Inc. Total packages in the last week: 20 Total packages on the archive: 1164 Packages can be obtained from any of our official WWW PD archive sites below: UK: http://hpux.csc.liv.ac.uk/ Germany: http://hpux.ask.uni-karlsruhe.de/ US (WI): http://hpux.cae.wisc.edu/ France: http://hpux.cict.fr/ Netherlands: http://hpux.ced.tudelft.nl/ Canada: http://hpux.ee.ualberta.ca/ Italy: http://hpux.dsi.unimi.it/ South Africa: http://hpux.petech.ac.za/ Japan: http://hpux.u-aizu.ac.jp/ US (UT): http://hpux.cs.utah.edu/ Alternatively, you can be e-mailed a package by sending "SEND package" in the body of an e-mail message to the address . To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send "UNSUBSCRIBE" to the same address. If you have a problem with the mail server, please e-mail . Other queries about the archive should be mailed to . ==== -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 07:16:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA16440 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16431 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip196.konnections.com [192.41.71.196]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA08372; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:15:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33539A49.2CE9C97D@konnections.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:10:01 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: Christoph Haas , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: weird cable References: <199704141222.VAA27266@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now we're going to have thousands of posts with all kinds of weird pin out diagrams just for a Pint 'o `G'. Mine will be done soon..... : -} -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > > > > > > I'm not sure what baudrate, as the Sparc driver just reads whatever > > > the firmware, but its 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit as far as I can > > > tell. > > > > Great, thanks a bunch. And if you can tell me the pinout of the keyborad's > > mini DIN connector I'll invite you to a pint of Guiness (or whatever beer > > you prefer) ;-) > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 07:20:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA16827 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16821 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA27940; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:50:12 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141420.XAA27940@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: <33539A49.2CE9C97D@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 15, 97 08:10:01 am" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:50:12 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, haas@willi.lion.de, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > Now we're going to have thousands of posts with all kinds of weird pin > out diagrams just for a Pint 'o `G'. > > Mine will be done soon..... : -} That would be unwise. If you decide to, I'll post our "pinouts" chapter from the hardware reference manual for our gear, 96-pin modules, about a dozen of, about forty panel connectors, countless loom diagrams... 8) > -Mike > > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what baudrate, as the Sparc driver just reads whatever > > > > the firmware, but its 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit as far as I can > > > > tell. > > > > > > Great, thanks a bunch. And if you can tell me the pinout of the keyborad's > > > mini DIN connector I'll invite you to a pint of Guiness (or whatever beer > > > you prefer) ;-) > > > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 08:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20062 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20057 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip196.konnections.com [192.41.71.196]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA08960; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:16:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3353A8A2.6B7F388F@konnections.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:11:15 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: haas@willi.lion.de, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: weird cable References: <199704141420.XAA27940@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This doesn't mean that you necessarily get more than ONE pint, does it? -mike Michael Smith wrote: > > mike allison stands accused of saying: > > Now we're going to have thousands of posts with all kinds of weird pin > > out diagrams just for a Pint 'o `G'. > > > > Mine will be done soon..... : -} > > That would be unwise. If you decide to, I'll post our "pinouts" > chapter from the hardware reference manual for our gear, 96-pin > modules, about a dozen of, about forty panel connectors, countless > loom diagrams... 8) > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 12:30:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08497 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.iastate.edu (cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08417 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunfire.cs.iastate.edu (sunfire.cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.46]) by cs.iastate.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA14802; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by sunfire.cs.iastate.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA04485; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sunfire.cs.iastate.edu: ghelmer owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: Zach Heilig cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Red River of the North update. In-Reply-To: <19970413235754.54566@murkwood.gaffaneys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Zach Heilig wrote: > We are recovering quite nicely from the storm last weekend, those workers from > the various power cooperatives (probably close to 1000 workers total) > basically have most of the close to 10,000 broken poles and the several > hundred major power structures [mostly metal towers for high voltage lines] > replaced, and very few people are still without power. A few years back, the network I used to manage was offline after a lightning strike forged the main campus transformer into a low-resistance hunk of metal and as a result the campus power was off for 30 hours straight. When the power came back, the FreeBSD mailserver was hit *hard* with incoming mail, and it handled it (it was fun to watch the maillog blaze by :-)! [In context, I remember working on Cybers, Apollos, old Suns, and MicroVAXes so well that I still can't help but be impressed by FreeBSD on a 25MHz 386] Guy Helmer, Computer Science Grad Student, Iowa State - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 13:25:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11947 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11918 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA14531 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma014529; Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:25:32 -0700 Message-ID: <335292C9.6F04@PartsNow.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:25:45 -0700 From: Don Wilde Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NOV-NOV (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: hiring Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My company, Soligen, is looking for an eager learner who is willing to put up with PC, Novell network and automated DSPC machine support in order to have the chance to play with FreeBSD cluster servers in a real-life application environment including web-hosted transaction processing with a fast-growing company that's the leader in providing quick-turn metal castings to Fortune-100 companies. Computer skills a +++, but we are looking for motivation and aptitude more than experience. Are you ready to fly high and fast? Visit our website and e-mail for details, and attach your resume in TEXT or MS-WORD format to me at the addresses below. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 19:38:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06864 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.de ([203.239.92.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06856; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA00629; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:01:28 +0900 (KST) From: grog@lemis.de Message-Id: <199704150201.LAA00629@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: <199704141141.VAA27032@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Apr 14, 97 09:11:32 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:01:27 +0900 (KST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Reply-to: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: >> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: >> >>> If you want to _interface_ it, then you are going to have to write your >>> own keyboard interface driver, and you will need a logic/RS-232 level >>> inverter. >> >> So a SUN uses a simple RS232 interface to attach its keyboard ? > > Yup, like many sensible workstation vendors, a real, async serial > protocol. None of this clocked bidirectional two-wire sync crap 8) Wouldn't this make it more appropriate to connect to a serial port, then? That way you'd save on the logic glue. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 19:49:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA07657 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07652 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02677; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:56 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704150248.MAA02677@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: weird cable In-Reply-To: <199704150201.LAA00629@papillon.lemis.de> from "grog@lemis.de" at "Apr 15, 97 11:01:27 am" To: grog@lemis.de Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:55 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk grog@lemis.de stands accused of saying: > Michael Smith writes: > > Christoph Haas stands accused of saying: > >> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > >> > >>> If you want to _interface_ it, then you are going to have to write your > >>> own keyboard interface driver, and you will need a logic/RS-232 level > >>> inverter. > >> > >> So a SUN uses a simple RS232 interface to attach its keyboard ? > > > > Yup, like many sensible workstation vendors, a real, async serial > > protocol. None of this clocked bidirectional two-wire sync crap 8) > > Wouldn't this make it more appropriate to connect to a serial port, > then? That way you'd save on the logic glue. Yup, that's the idea. You still need a power supply and a level converter, and if you want to use the mouse, two serial ports, but you could use a really old and crappy 8250-based card with no fear of overrunning it. > Greg > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 20:11:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA09162 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09156 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4) id XAA05399 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199704150311.XAA05399@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >> As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking >> Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* >> the steady improvement of our standings... >> >> >well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get >"connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a >key or try report results.. >at the moment it seems to be totally off-line There is another set of folks doing this, DESCHALL, http://www.frii.com/~rcv/desrank.htm -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 20:34:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10459 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [198.180.136.138]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10447 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from langfod@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) id RAA04949; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:34:44 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: <199704150334.RAA04949@caliban.dihelix.com> Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... In-Reply-To: <199704150311.XAA05399@crh.cl.msu.edu> from Charles Henrich at "Apr 14, 97 11:11:48 pm" To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:34:44 -1000 (HST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "David Langford" X-blank-line: This space intentionaly left blank. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Henrich >In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: > >>> As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking >>> Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* >>> the steady improvement of our standings... >>> >>> >>well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get >>"connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a >>key or try report results.. > >>at the moment it seems to be totally off-line Any reason not to use someing like the kidsat-pc.jpl.nasa.gov proxy? -David Langford langfod@dihelix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 14 22:03:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15693 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from X2296 (ppp1653.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.117]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15685 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by X2296 (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00224; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:03:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Satoshi Asami cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports/3273: ports/mail/imap_uw won't compile In-Reply-To: <199704150233.TAA02169@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2 X-Mailer: Pine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * Sure no problem, how do you tell what format it is? > > They look different. :) > > Why don't you try "diff -c" and "diff -u" on same set of files. Diff the diffs! diff -c old new > /tmp/j; diff -u old new | diff /tmp/j - | more -- tIM...HOEk Who's been messing with my anti-paranoi shot?! From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 04:51:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05143 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-44.netcom.ca [207.181.94.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05138 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id IAA02724; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:51:27 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:51:27 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: David Langford cc: Charles Henrich , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... In-Reply-To: <199704150334.RAA04949@caliban.dihelix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, David Langford wrote: > Charles Henrich > >In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: > > > >>> As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking > >>> Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* > >>> the steady improvement of our standings... > >>> > >>> > >>well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get > >>"connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a > >>key or try report results.. > > > >>at the moment it seems to be totally off-line > > Any reason not to use someing like the kidsat-pc.jpl.nasa.gov proxy? I've totally switched off of suck.it.ca, its been down again this morning for 9hrs...it just isn't stable enough :( I'm usin gthe bovine.st.hmc.edu proxy right now, but any of the proxies (other then suck.it.ca) seem to be stable...I've never noticed any of them down. Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 04:56:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05393 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-44.netcom.ca [207.181.94.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05388 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id IAA02754; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:55:54 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:55:54 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Charles Henrich cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... In-Reply-To: <199704150311.XAA05399@crh.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: > > >> As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking > >> Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* > >> the steady improvement of our standings... > >> > >> > >well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get > >"connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a > >key or try report results.. > > >at the moment it seems to be totally off-line > > There is another set of folks doing this, DESCHALL, > http://www.frii.com/~rcv/desrank.htm DESCHALL is pretty much equivalent to what we are doing, except that they aren't really doing anything more then acting as a keyserver... What I like about the original effort at genx.net, and now the one through bovine, is that we are apart of a team effort...bovine even has listed what it has plans to do with the $10k ($8k goes to Project Gutenburg(sp?))... I don't know, I like the competitive nature of the bovine project (we are ~1500blocks behind first place right now)...at DESCHALL, I have little chance of getting in the top 1000 :( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 06:22:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09017 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09008 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29000 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:22:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33538118.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:22:32 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: It takes tiny steps ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk SunExpert Magazine's free subscription card included with every issue asks what systems are in use at your site. I just noticed today that that list finally includes FreeBSD. Our beloved OS is making progress. (We might also have Mr Protocol to thank, though.) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 06:39:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09748 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09733 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA24919; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:38:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Kelly cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It takes tiny steps ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:22:32 MDT." <33538118.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: <24915.861111517@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > SunExpert Magazine's free subscription card included with every issue > asks what systems are in use at your site. I just noticed today that > that list finally includes FreeBSD. Yay! We're making progress, folks! :-) Seriously, I think this is going to be a really really good year for us, for a number of reasons (only some of which I can talk about now, but stay tuned for updates as I'm allowed to release more information :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 11:46:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29172 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29166 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from altair.aero.org (altair.aero.org [130.221.192.64]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13122; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704151845.LAA13122@antares.aero.org> To: Sean Kelly Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It takes tiny steps ... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:22:32 PDT." <33538118.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:45:11 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > SunExpert Magazine's free subscription card included with every issue > asks what systems are in use at your site. I just noticed today that > that list finally includes FreeBSD. > > Our beloved OS is making progress. (We might also have Mr Protocol to > thank, though.) Nope. I didn't even know about it till I saw your message. They did that aaaaall on their own. Mike O'B. for Mr. P. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 20:51:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04060 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulpi.interconnect.com.au (tulpi.interconnect.com.au [192.189.54.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04049 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solsbury-hill.home (acc4-ppp2.mel.interconnect.com.au [210.8.0.66]) by tulpi.interconnect.com.au with ESMTP id NAA18660 (8.7.6/IDA-1.6 for ); Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:50:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from solsbury-hill.home (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by solsbury-hill.home (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01475 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:39:33 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199704160339.NAA01475@solsbury-hill.home> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0beta 12/23/96 From: Joel Sutton To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HP "ports" - A weekly new-ports announcement idea?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:01:42 -0400." <199704141401.KAA03505@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:39:32 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > New packages on the Software And Porting Archive Centre in the last week Wouldn't it be nice if ..... (oh not another I hear you cry!) ... a message was posted to announce (or similar) showing the new ports that have been added, perhaps on a weekly basis? Of course, people could subscribe to the ports mailing list but there's a lot of extra traffic (which newbies might not understand??) when you just want to hear about whats new. Comments/feedback/abuse? Cheers, Joel... From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 15 23:23:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA15386 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [198.180.136.138]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15333 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from langfod@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) id UAA10277; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:14:12 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: <199704160614.UAA10277@caliban.dihelix.com> Subject: Re: HP "ports" - A weekly new-ports announcement idea?? In-Reply-To: <199704160339.NAA01475@solsbury-hill.home> from Joel Sutton at "Apr 16, 97 01:39:32 pm" To: suttonj@interconnect.com.au (Joel Sutton) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:14:11 -1000 (HST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "David Langford" X-blank-line: This space intentionaly left blank. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Sutton >> New packages on the Software And Porting Archive Centre in the last week > >Wouldn't it be nice if ..... (oh not another I hear you cry!) > >... a message was posted to announce (or similar) showing the new ports >that have been added, perhaps on a weekly basis? Unfortunately this would only be a tease for those NOT running current as many ports wont work with 2.2 or 2.1. If I recall correctly Apache has(had?) this problem. (Granted I think the Apache port is very broken but thats another matter.) At least this used to be the case. Please, please correct me if I am wrong. -David Langford langfod@dihelix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 00:49:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA25076 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25053 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA14626; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:18:20 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704160748.RAA14626@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <199704151810.LAA22811@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 15, 97 11:10:59 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:18:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > ... don't make the (mistaken) assumption that amateur licenses are as > > easy to get outside the USA as they are inside. Having said that, I > > still plan to do something as soon as I stop living in a flat 8) > > A flat what? A flat is what in more grandiose terms one might call an "apartment", only think downmarket some more. Besser-block walls, stucco ceiling. Basically a concrete box, usually stacked in a multi-storey heap. Compares unfavourably with "unit" (single storey) and "townhouse" (multi-storey, but not stacked). Basically not an environment conducive to the stringing of antennae. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 05:41:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24691 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA24686 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous225.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.225]) by bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14991; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:41:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00726; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:38 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199704161206.OAA00726@campa.panke.de> From: Wolfram Schneider To: Michael Smith Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/editors/staroffice - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <199704150611.PAA04707@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199704142239.AAA00727@campa.panke.de> <199704150611.PAA04707@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: >Wolfram Schneider stands accused of saying: >> Michael Smith writes: >> >Because StarDivision are a small company, and a group of their >> >employees have gone out on a limb and done the Linux port at obviously >> >considerable personal credibility risk. Demanding another port of >> >them would be unlikely to enthuse them at all, especially when we >> >emulate the Linux ABI so well. >> >> StarDivision is a major player in Germany. StarDivision sells some >> 20-50000 user licenses to large German companies. > >Fair enough, but that's still "small" compared to, say Lotus or >WordPerfect. I forgot the main reason for StarDivision success: staroffice is cheap! The official prices in Germany are 499DM for StarOffice and 1100-1900DM for MS Office 97. From my memory, the office market in Germany is 60% for Microsoft, 20% StarDivision, and 20% for the rest (Lotus, WordPerfect, etc.) Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 05:52:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA25197 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA25192 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12950; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:51:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: "John S. Dyson" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-Reply-To: <199704160200.VAA01268@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote in freebsd-hackers: > > So we were wrong :-). I always hated the bounce buffer support that > I wrote -- and would have done it better again. But darn'it I don't > think that there are many jobs for bounce-buffer writers :-). Well, there's a lot of talk about removal of stack execution in Linux and how gcc trampoline code gets around it. You'd be an expert. ;-) "Tightropes, trampolines, bounce buffers, oh my..." -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 06:14:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25962 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25953 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id IAA04463; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:14:06 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704161314.IAA04463@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Apr 16, 97 08:51:43 am" To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca (Brian Tao) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:14:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote in freebsd-hackers: > > > > So we were wrong :-). I always hated the bounce buffer support that > > I wrote -- and would have done it better again. But darn'it I don't > > think that there are many jobs for bounce-buffer writers :-). > > Well, there's a lot of talk about removal of stack execution in > Linux and how gcc trampoline code gets around it. You'd be an expert. ;-) > I have been watching that. That is more in Bruce's and Peter W.'s area, but I am willing to work on that also. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 17:36:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18700 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18637 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970116) with ESMTP id UAA06290; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPN/970116) with ESMTP id UAA23761; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:30:02 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: bsdnet@lamb.net From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: lotd@world.std.com: Laugh Of The Day - Mon, Apr 14 1997 (fwd) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:30:02 -0400 Message-ID: <23759.861237002@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hrm This looks about right actually Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info ------- Forwarded Message ****************************************************************************** Be sure to visit LaughWEB (http://www.intermarket.net/laughweb/) ****************************************************************************** *File Description: The Windows95 Source Code* Subject: *** TOP SECRET MICROSOFT CODE *** Project: Version - Windows 95 Microsoft marketing strategy (MARKET.EXE): #include #include #include /* Microsoft Network Connectivity library */ #include /* For the court of law */ #define say(x) lie(x) #define computeruser ALL_WANT_TO_BUY_OUR_BUGWARE #define next_year soon #define the_product_is_ready_to_ship another_beta_version void main() { if (latest_window_version>one_month_old) { if (there_are_still_bugs) market(bugfix); if (sales_drop_below_certain_point) raise(RUMOURS_ABOUT_A_NEW_BUGLESS_VERSION); } while(everyone_chats_about_new_version) { make_false_promise(it_will_be_multitasking); /* Standard Call, in lie.h */ if (rumours_grow_wilder) make_false_promise(it_will_be_plug_n_play); if (rumours_grow_even_wilder) { market_time=ripe; say("It will be ready in one month); order(programmers, stop_fixing_bugs_in_old_version); order(programmers, start_brainstorm_about_new_version); order(marketingstaff, permission_to_spread_nonsense); vapourware=TRUE; break; } } switch (nasty_questions_of_the_worldpress) { case WHEN_WILL_IT_BE_READY: say("It will be ready in", today+30_days," we're just testing"); break; case WILL_THIS_PLUG_AND_PLAY_THING_WORK: say("Yes it will work"); ask(programmers, why_does_it_not_work); pretend(there_is_no_problem); break; case WHAT_ARE_MINIMAL_HARDWARE_REQUIREMENTS: say("It will run on a 8086 with lightning speed due to" " the 32 bits architecture"); inform(INTEL, "Pentium sales will rise skyhigh"); inform(SAMSUNG, "Start a new memorychip plant" "'cos all those customers will need at least 32 megs"); inform(QUANTUM, "Thanks to our fatware your sales will triple"); get_big_bonus(INTEL, SAMSUNG, QUANTUM); break; case DOES_MICROSOFT_GET_TOO_MUCH_INFLUENCE: say("Oh no, we are just here to make a better world for everyone"); register(journalist, Big_Bill_Book); when(time_is_ripe) { arrest(journalist); brainwash(journalist); when(journalist_says_windows95_is_bugfree) { order(journalist, "write a nice objective article"); release (journalist); } } break; } while (vapourware) { introduction_date++; /* Delay */ if (no_one_believes_anymore_there_will_be_a_release) break; say("It will be ready in",today+ONE_MONTH); } release(beta_version) while (everyone_is_dumb_enough_to_buy_our_bugware) { bills_bank_account += 150*megabucks; release(new_and_even_better_beta_version); introduce(more_memory_requirements); if (customers_report_installation_problems) { say("that is a hardware problem, not a software problem"); if (smart_customer_says_but_you_promised_plug_and_play) { ignore(customer); order(microsoft_intelligence_agency, "Keep an eye on this bastard"); } } if ( bills_bank_account>skyhigh && marriage>two_years ) { divorce(woman_that_was_beatifull_when_I_married_her); wave(dollars, at_lusty_chicks); marry(young_blond_virgin_with_big_boobies); devirginize(young_blond_virgin_with_big_boobies); if (boobies_start_to_hang) dump(young_blond_virgin_with_big_boobies); } if (there_is_another_company) { steal(their_ideas); accuse(compagny, stealing_our_ideas); hire(a_lot_of_lawyers); /* in process.h */ wait(until_other_company_cannot_afford_another_lawsuit); buy_out(other_company); } } /* Now everyone realizes that we sell bugware and they are all angry at us */ order(plastic_surgeon, make_bill_look_like_poor_bastard); buy(nice_little_island); hire(harem); laugh_at(everyone, for_having_the_patience_year_after_year_for_another_unfinished_version); } void bugfix(void) { charge (a_lot_of_money) if (customer_says_he_does_not_want_to_pay_for_bugfix) say("It is not a bugfix but a new version"); if (still_complaints) { ignore(customer); register(customer, big_Bill_book); /* We'll get him when everyone uses Billware!!*/ } } ****************************************************************************** LAUGH OF THE DAY - A service of LaughWEB (http://www.intermarket.net/laughweb/). To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the URL: http://world.std.com/~joeshmoe/lotdSM/ If you do not have access to the web, you may get information about subscribing and unsubscribing via e-mail by sending a message to: lotd-request@world.std.com The URL of today's laugh: http://www.intermarket.net/laughweb/computer/ms/the.windows.source.code ****************************************************************************** ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 16 19:45:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01538 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01531; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14502; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704170233.WAA14502@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: lotd@world.std.com: Laugh Of The Day - Mon, Apr 14 1997 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <23759.861237002@orion.webspan.net> from Gary Palmer at "Apr 16, 97 08:30:02 pm" To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hrm > > This looks about right actually This is obviously fake. The real version starts: > if (IntegralDateFourByteNotBreak2000LatestWindowVersion > IntegralDateFourByteNotBreak2000OneMonthOld)... -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 08:50:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA13127 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13084; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 667@skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.0.19] with ESMTP id TAA12054; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:48:04 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id TAA19701; (8.8.5/D) Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:48:57 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199704171548.TAA19701@skraldespand.demos.su> Subject: FreeBSD vs other platforms? X-ELM-OSV: (Our standard violations) no-mime=1; no-hdr-encoding=1 To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:48:56 +0400 (MSD) Cc: isp@freebsd.org, ache@nagual.ru (Andrey A. Chernov) From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" X-Class: Fast Organization: Demos Company, Ltd. Reply-To: mishania@demos.su X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, My question is awfully simple and complicated also: I wonder if anyone in this world collected/tryed to collect statistics on the world usage of various platforms in networking applications, like, providing internet services (www/ftp/dns/dhcp/)? Without any doubt I'd mention, that we're willing to consider *BSD (open, net, free, BSD/OS) to be one united field of calculations. Seems like I have to explain the situation: as it always happening in pretty huge ISP on the market, we have two 'technological' platforms, Suns and *BSD. And as it's always happening, there's confrontation starting between those admins of above mentioned platforms, say, for funding, after several years of successful work on both types of servers/OS's (we're 8 years on the market of Russian ISP already). We are interested to gather (start ourselves) analysis on the topic of _comparison_ (er, how is it spelled? ;-)) on frequency of the usage of different OS's/platforms on highly loaded servers, like innd/nntp, httpd, ftpd, named and other data terminals, like shell access machines... Thanks, -mishania From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 13:17:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01906 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup5.gaffaneys.com [134.129.252.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01896 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13994; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:18:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Zach Heilig Message-ID: <19970417151859.35164@murkwood.gaffaneys.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:18:59 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Yikes! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk They updated our flood prediction today, to between 50.5, and 51.5 feet of water tomorrow night or Saturday morning. The old recorded record is 50.81 feet [1897]. The gut feeling of the people around here is it will go over the 100 year height. At about 1:20 pm today, the civil defense sirens went off in our area, because they found some cracks in the dike in the area behind my house. The water had hit 50.26 feet, and was seeping through the dike. No houses have yet to be affected [and the city engineers think they can stabilize the dikes (cheer!)]. The current river level is 50.37 feet. They expect the water to stick around for up to two weeks [yuck! :-(]. It is unusual that the entire Red River should be near the flood crest all at the same time. My house is at 836 ft. above sea-level, the bottom of the river is 779 ft. above sea-level, so my house will be ok, but my whole block would probably be an island, should the dike actually give away. We still moved some stuff out of the basement, and set up the sump pump, should the water start seeping into the basement [yuck, sumps smell terrible!]. Nasty, Nasty... -- Zach Heilig (zach@blizzard.gaffaneys.com) | ALL unsolicited commercial email No Food, No Water, No Power, No Problem - | is unwelcome. I avoid dealing KCNN - Blizzard/Flood '97 Slogan... | with companies that email ads. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 13:53:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04612 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-50.netcom.ca [207.181.94.114]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04597 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA06146 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:53:43 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:53:43 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... With all the talk about large corporations and whatnot that has been going on, why not build a "Commercial FreeBSD" CD-rom? Mainly, something that results in as brain dead of a Unix OS as possible for end-users, something that I could give to my mother and tell her to insert this into drive A and boot your computer...it will ask you a few questions and then do the rest on its own. Think of it this way...how much does MicroSloth charge for Windows95 nowadays? NT? What do you get with it? An OS, that's it, right? (I actually don't know, haven't installed a MicroSloth system in several years) What I'm thinking is that, for starters, we have a Unix based Office product (StarOffice) that kinda works under our Linux Emulation. Why not make a deal with them to come up with a FreeBSD port and offer to resell it as part of a commercial FreeBSD CD. I don't know how much they charge for their Commercial version, but considering they are just giving it away for non-commercial use, you could probably work out a deal...hell, I'd even buy a copy of StarOffice if they had a FreeBSD port... So, wrap FreeBSD/StarOffice for FreeBSD into a CD as a start. What else would be required? Wrap Netscape in with that, again, so that its *already* intalled without having to go to the ports section and dealing with that (we're talking *end-users* here!) Isn't there a realaudio port for FreeBSD? what other commercial quality products are out there that we could effectively make a *end-user* CD distribution that is as plug-n-play as possible? Hell, even kernel optimizations from GENERIC could be done in such a way that its just a system tuning chore that happens in the background and when complete, informs the user that a reboot is required to make the new kernel active. then we'd have the FreeBSD that we all know and love (source code) and a FreeBSD that I could give to my mother and be relatively confident she'd be able to actually make use of it. (ie. she doesn't need source or a ports section) *shrug* Just a thought...there is enough talent around here that building up a User-Friendly GUI interface wouldn't/shouldn't be that difficult...no? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 16:37:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15188 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15183 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4) id TAA27749 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:37:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:37:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just started looking into mutt because Im getting tired of elm being so dated, anyway, I was wondering if there were any other FreeBSD users out there using mutt, and if so, what sort of color schemes/key bindings (i.e. post your .muttrc :) were in use.. -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 18:21:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22141 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22134 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA28274 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:20:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12263; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:22:24 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418022223.AF35698@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:22:23 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) References: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Apr 17, 1997 19:37:24 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Henrich wrote: > I just started looking into mutt because Im getting tired of elm > being so dated, anyway, I was wondering if there were any other > FreeBSD users out there using mutt, Quite a number, i think. If you look in Mutt's contributor list, you'll see some well-known FreeBSD names... Not that i'm already entirely happy with it either, it has a few idiosyncrasies as well (the most annoying being the resize bug in conjunction with libncurses), and... > and if so, what sort of color > schemes/key bindings (i.e. post your .muttrc :) were in use.. ...there should be a better default .muttrc (explaining the default bindings) :) Here is mine (partially). I had to dig through Mutt's source in order to compile the list of default bindings, and it's possible that the list is already slightly outdated again. # # Attributes for mono and color screens: # #mono attachment none mono error bold mono from bold #mono header none mono indicator bold reverse #mono normal none #mono quoted none #mono signature none mono status bold reverse mono subject underline #mono tilde none #mono tree none #color attachment black white color error red white color from black white #color header black white color indicator brightwhite green #color normal black white #color quoted black white #color signature black white color status brightyellow cyan color subject black green #color tilde black white #color tree black white # # The menus # #bind " " next-page internal-pager #bind "-" previous-page internal-pager #bind "\n" next-line internal-pager #bind "\r" next-line internal-pager #bind "^" top internal-pager #bind "/" search internal-pager #bind "?" help internal-pager #bind "$" bottom internal-pager bind ">" save-message internal-pager #bind "T" toggle-quoted internal-pager #bind "\cP" half-up internal-pager #bind "\cN" half-down internal-pager #bind "\cL" redraw-screen internal-pager #bind backspace previous-line internal-pager # #bind "\t" next-new internal-pager #bind "b" bounce-message internal-pager bind "b" half-up internal-pager #bind "c" change-folder internal-pager #bind "C" copy-message internal-pager #bind "d" delete-message internal-pager bind "d" half-down internal-pager #bind "\cD" delete-thread internal-pager bind "\cD" delete-message internal-pager #bind "F" flag-message internal-pager #bind "f" forward-message internal-pager #bind "g" group-reply internal-pager bind "G" bottom internal-pager #bind "h" display-headers internal-pager #bind "i" exit internal-pager #bind "j" next-undeleted internal-pager #bind "J" next-message internal-pager #bind "k" previous-undeleted internal-pager #bind "K" previous-message internal-pager #bind "L" list-reply internal-pager #bind "m" mail internal-pager #bind "n" next-undeleted internal-pager #bind "N" mark-as-new internal-pager #bind "\cN" next-thread internal-pager #bind "p" print-message internal-pager #bind "\cP" previous-thread internal-pager #bind "q" exit internal-pager bind "Q" exit internal-pager #bind "r" reply internal-pager #bind "s" save-message internal-pager #bind "t" tag-message internal-pager #bind "u" undelete-message internal-pager #bind "v" view-attachments internal-pager #bind "\cU" browse-url internal-pager #bind "x" exit internal-pager #bind "|" pipe-message internal-pager #bind ":" enter-command internal-pager # #bind pagedown next-page internal-pager #bind "pageup" previous-page internal-pager #bind "up" previous-undeleted internal-pager bind "up" previous-line internal-pager #bind "right" next-undeleted internal-pager #bind "down" next-undeleted internal-pager bind "down" next-line internal-pager #bind "left" previous-undeleted internal-pager bind ">" save-message main-menu # elm legacy lists freebsd-hackers hackers lists freebsd-bugs bugs lists freebsd-scsi scsi lists freebsd-current current lists freebsd-ports ports lists freebsd-chat chat alternates j@uriah.heep.sax.de joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de alternates joerg@freebsd.org joerg@freefall.freebsd.org my_hdr Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) sort reverse-date-sent ignore x-face ignore x-loop ignore x400- ignore x-mime-autoconverted source ~/.muttaliases set alias_file=~/.muttaliases set editor=emacsclient set attribution="As %n wrote:\n" set autoedit set autoinclude set edit_hdrs set folder=~/Mail set mbox=~/Mail/received set record=~/Mail/sent set postponed=~/Mail/postponed set save_name set allow_8bit -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 18:37:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23028 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.ucdavis.edu [128.120.175.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23017 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (reqb-001.ucdavis.edu [128.120.254.1]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA27642; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:46:18 GMT Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA23383; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:37:37 GMT Message-ID: <19970417183736.58859@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:37:36 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Charles Henrich Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) References: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 07:37:24PM -0400 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was wondering if there were any other FreeBSD users out there using > mutt Joerg Wunch, Ollivier Robert, myself are three. And I know there are others because I peroidically get email about the mutt port. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 18:50:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23428 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23420 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA28469 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:50:40 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00967; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:37:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418033713.WU23710@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:37:13 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. References: <19970418011811.HD45854@uriah.heep.sax.de> <291.861323175@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <291.861323175@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Apr 17, 1997 17:26:15 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > used to that name already. (You can, of course, also make symlinks to > > "sysadm", "scoadm", "smit", and "sam". :-) > > *Thwap* :-) Which operating system used "thwap" as the name of its administration tool? :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 18:56:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23770 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23764 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4) id VAA28235; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:56:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199704180156.VAA28235@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) In-Reply-To: <19970417183736.58859@dragon.nuxi.com> from David O'Brien at "Apr 17, 97 06:37:36 pm" To: obrien@NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I was wondering if there were any other FreeBSD users out there using > > mutt > > Joerg Wunch, Ollivier Robert, myself are three. And I know there are > others because I peroidically get email about the mutt port. What are people doing about the background problem? rxvt and slang? -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 22:05:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03206 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03200 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02568; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:05:25 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:37:13 +0200." <19970418033713.WU23710@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <2566.861339924@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > used to that name already. (You can, of course, also make symlinks to > > > "sysadm", "scoadm", "smit", and "sam". :-) > > > > *Thwap* :-) > > Which operating system used "thwap" as the name of its administration > tool? :-) The lisp machine, of course. So called because most of the adminstrative operations required a thwap to system mode. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 17 23:00:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06007 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06002 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA01795 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:00:32 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id HAA04844 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:59:54 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id HAA23365; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:57:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970418075758.21491@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:57:58 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) References: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: <199704172337.TAA27749@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 07:37:24PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3195 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Charles Henrich: > I just started looking into mutt because Im getting tired of elm being so Welcome to the club :-) > dated, anyway, I was wondering if there were any other FreeBSD users out there A few yes. Jörg Wunsch, David O'Brien, Randall Hopper and many others. Join us on the mutt lists[1]. > using mutt, and if so, what sort of color schemes/key bindings (i.e. post your > .muttrc :) were in use.. My own muttrc is at [2] and Sven Guckes[3] has a few things about Mutt too. I've been a complete converted since 0.37 (the version I started with) after more than 8 years of heavy Elm usage. ----- [1] [2] [3] -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 03:18:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22717 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA22712 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA02940 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:17:51 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02691; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:02:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418120233.ED58050@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:02:33 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) References: <19970417183736.58859@dragon.nuxi.com> <199704180156.VAA28235@crh.cl.msu.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704180156.VAA28235@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Apr 17, 1997 21:56:26 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Henrich wrote: > > Joerg Wunch, Ollivier Robert, myself are three. And I know there are > > others because I peroidically get email about the mutt port. > > What are people doing about the background problem? rxvt and slang? Which background problem? I'm running Mutt in a plain xterm (color), and as i wrote previously, the most annoying thing by know is the resize bug. I've noticed that the lucidatypewriter fonts choke on the line drawing characters used in the thread display, but the default fonts for xterm grok it so i figure it's not exactly Mutt's fault. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 07:45:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10170 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10162 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip197.konnections.com [192.41.71.197]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA01404; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:43:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3358E6C2.5C763CA1@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:37:38 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marc: This is VERY similar to the RedHat?ApplixWare bundle. They send out the suite bundled with the optimum RH Linux version to run it. I think RH has a division that maintains the ApplixWare port. This sounds like a GOOD commercial project for someone willing and able to put it together and SUPPORT it. *BSD is a far better platform than Linux (For this) because the Linux world cannot always insure that any particular distro was compiled/configured the same as any other. RH ApplixWare may not run under Slackware. *BSD doesn't have this problem since the releases are centralised for the platform. Wish we had the resources to do this.... The office suite IS the killer app which allows one to move away from MS.... -Mike The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Hi... > > With all the talk about large corporations and whatnot that has > been going on, why not build a "Commercial FreeBSD" CD-rom? > > Mainly, something that results in as brain dead of a Unix OS as > possible for end-users, something that I could give to my mother and tell > her to insert this into drive A and boot your computer...it will ask you > a few questions and then do the rest on its own. > > Think of it this way...how much does MicroSloth charge for Windows95 > nowadays? NT? What do you get with it? An OS, that's it, right? (I actually > don't know, haven't installed a MicroSloth system in several years) > > What I'm thinking is that, for starters, we have a Unix based > Office product (StarOffice) that kinda works under our Linux Emulation. Why > not make a deal with them to come up with a FreeBSD port and offer to resell > it as part of a commercial FreeBSD CD. I don't know how much they charge > for their Commercial version, but considering they are just giving it away > for non-commercial use, you could probably work out a deal...hell, I'd even > buy a copy of StarOffice if they had a FreeBSD port... > > So, wrap FreeBSD/StarOffice for FreeBSD into a CD as a start. > > What else would be required? Wrap Netscape in with that, again, so > that its *already* intalled without having to go to the ports section and > dealing with that (we're talking *end-users* here!) > > Isn't there a realaudio port for FreeBSD? what other commercial > quality products are out there that we could effectively make a *end-user* > CD distribution that is as plug-n-play as possible? > > Hell, even kernel optimizations from GENERIC could be done in such > a way that its just a system tuning chore that happens in the background > and when complete, informs the user that a reboot is required to make the > new kernel active. > > then we'd have the FreeBSD that we all know and love (source code) > and a FreeBSD that I could give to my mother and be relatively confident she'd > be able to actually make use of it. (ie. she doesn't need source or a ports > section) > > *shrug* Just a thought...there is enough talent around here that > building up a User-Friendly GUI interface wouldn't/shouldn't be that > difficult...no? > > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 09:24:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14892 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14886 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA10333; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:24:01 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970419022401.39470@usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:24:01 +1000 From: David Nugent To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mutt ? (Mail package, like elm) References: <19970417183736.58859@dragon.nuxi.com> <199704180156.VAA28235@crh.cl.msu.edu> <19970418120233.ED58050@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <19970418120233.ED58050@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Fri Apr 18 12:02:33 EST 1997 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri Apr 18 12:02:33 EST 1997, J Wunsch writes: > > > Joerg Wunch, Ollivier Robert, myself are three. And I know there are > > > others because I peroidically get email about the mutt port. > > > > What are people doing about the background problem? rxvt and slang? > > Which background problem? I'm running Mutt in a plain xterm (color), Same here, although I do run the xterm with -bg gray90 and use a color-on-white palette. The gray90 is roughly what libslang uses for its "gray" background, so it avoids any difference between the default background and whatever libslang uses. This problem, however, was more noticable in earlier versions of mutt, and when I recently ran it without the -bg gray90 I only noticed a couple of places where the default background sneaked in. > and as i wrote previously, the most annoying thing by know is the > resize bug. I've noticed that the lucidatypewriter fonts choke on the > line drawing characters used in the thread display, but the default > fonts for xterm grok it so i figure it's not exactly Mutt's fault. Yes, you have to override your termcap entry. ~/.termcap is your friend. :) Under X I run mutt out of a script ("xmutt" :-)) which does some fiddling with environment values including $TERM, so that the line drawing is correct for both mutt and the external editor. Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 11:02:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22336 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-18.netcom.ca [207.181.94.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22327 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA12002; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:47 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:47 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <3358E6C2.5C763CA1@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > Marc: > > This is VERY similar to the RedHat?ApplixWare bundle. They send out the > suite bundled with the optimum RH Linux version to run it. I think RH > has a division that maintains the ApplixWare port. This sounds like a > GOOD commercial project for someone willing and able to put it together > and SUPPORT it. > > *BSD is a far better platform than Linux (For this) because the Linux > world cannot always insure that any particular distro was > compiled/configured the same as any other. RH ApplixWare may not run > under Slackware. > > *BSD doesn't have this problem since the releases are centralised for > the platform. > > Wish we had the resources to do this.... The office suite IS the killer > app which allows one to move away from MS.... We sort of already do have the resources...if ppl were a little more willing to put their "money where there mouth is", so to say... The Office Suite is a Linux product...but its Free for non-commercial use...you hear every once in a while on the lists about how X company has this really nice commercial product, but for Unix, it would cost a major fortune to buy compared to a MSWindows version...which makes sense, considering the market share. So, as a community, why not approach StarDivision concerning filling the void that currently exists...a *good*, office quality, FreeBSD ported Office Suite (its already there, just as Linux binaries). How much would an MS-equivalent product cost, if you were in an MS environment? MSOffice goes for how much...$400? StarDivision is giving it away for free for non-commercial use...so go to StarDivision, ask them for a FreeBSD port to include as part of a "commercial CD package" and offer to pay them per CD. Current cost of CD: $39.95...commercial CD package w/ StarOffice: $65...now StarDivision is making $25/copy off a product that they aren't making any money off of now... at least not off of 'non-commercial' users... (NOTE: Simplistic view...I know) What other products are out there that could go into a commercial quality (business-quality?) CD? Xaccel? McAfee(sp?) Virus scan? CDE? Make it a brain-dead install...we have, IMHO, a rock-solid platform to build from, but its pretty much a 'hackers-world' distribution right now, not meant for the generic user that wants point-click and little-to-no-headaches Then again, so far, there are only two of that even consider this to be a reasonable idea *shrug* > > -Mike > > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > Hi... > > > > With all the talk about large corporations and whatnot that has > > been going on, why not build a "Commercial FreeBSD" CD-rom? > > > > Mainly, something that results in as brain dead of a Unix OS as > > possible for end-users, something that I could give to my mother and tell > > her to insert this into drive A and boot your computer...it will ask you > > a few questions and then do the rest on its own. > > > > Think of it this way...how much does MicroSloth charge for Windows95 > > nowadays? NT? What do you get with it? An OS, that's it, right? (I actually > > don't know, haven't installed a MicroSloth system in several years) > > > > What I'm thinking is that, for starters, we have a Unix based > > Office product (StarOffice) that kinda works under our Linux Emulation. Why > > not make a deal with them to come up with a FreeBSD port and offer to resell > > it as part of a commercial FreeBSD CD. I don't know how much they charge > > for their Commercial version, but considering they are just giving it away > > for non-commercial use, you could probably work out a deal...hell, I'd even > > buy a copy of StarOffice if they had a FreeBSD port... > > > > So, wrap FreeBSD/StarOffice for FreeBSD into a CD as a start. > > > > What else would be required? Wrap Netscape in with that, again, so > > that its *already* intalled without having to go to the ports section and > > dealing with that (we're talking *end-users* here!) > > > > Isn't there a realaudio port for FreeBSD? what other commercial > > quality products are out there that we could effectively make a *end-user* > > CD distribution that is as plug-n-play as possible? > > > > Hell, even kernel optimizations from GENERIC could be done in such > > a way that its just a system tuning chore that happens in the background > > and when complete, informs the user that a reboot is required to make the > > new kernel active. > > > > then we'd have the FreeBSD that we all know and love (source code) > > and a FreeBSD that I could give to my mother and be relatively confident she'd > > be able to actually make use of it. (ie. she doesn't need source or a ports > > section) > > > > *shrug* Just a thought...there is enough talent around here that > > building up a User-Friendly GUI interface wouldn't/shouldn't be that > > difficult...no? > > > > Marc G. Fournier > > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 11:38:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24739 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24730 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA08939; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:16 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199704181838.LAA08939@kithrup.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <19805.861384223.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:45 BST." Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <19805.861384223.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@time.cdrom.com> you write: >I also talked with our sales manager yesterday about getting into more >retail stores and her comment was that we were definitely _trying_ to do >this on a more or less constant basis, but getting in bed with the Mafia >for a portion of their lucrative drug-and-sex trade is actually *easier* >than getting into some of these retail stores. Perfect! "I'll make you an offer you can't refuse..." Big guys with broken noses carrying in cases of FreeBSD CD-ROMs, saying, "Youse ordered dese here CD-ROMs, right? Comes wif de protection contract. Youse don't want to be unprotected, does youse?" "Buy three grams, and get a freebsd cdrom for only $10 more! Such a deal!" Or were you only *kidding* about that? Sean. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 13:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01909 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01902 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA03537; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:16 PDT." <199704181838.LAA08939@kithrup.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:38:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3535.861395913@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In article <19805.861384223.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@time.cdrom.com> you write : > >I also talked with our sales manager yesterday about getting into more > >retail stores and her comment was that we were definitely _trying_ to do > >this on a more or less constant basis, but getting in bed with the Mafia > >for a portion of their lucrative drug-and-sex trade is actually *easier* > >than getting into some of these retail stores. > > Perfect! > > "I'll make you an offer you can't refuse..." Big guys with broken noses > carrying in cases of FreeBSD CD-ROMs, saying, "Youse ordered dese here > CD-ROMs, right? Comes wif de protection contract. Youse don't want to be > unprotected, does youse?" "Buy three grams, and get a freebsd cdrom for > only $10 more! Such a deal!" > > Or were you only *kidding* about that? No, I unfortunately was not kidding. :-( I got a little education yesterday about the retail sales trade and it was not a pretty picture. It truly is a racket of immense proportions. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 13:53:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02525 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02520 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA03688; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:50:11 -0700 (PDT) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: mike allison , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:47 -0300." Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:50:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3686.861396610@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Then again, so far, there are only two of that even consider this > to be a reasonable idea *shrug* Well, not unreasonable, I simply think it's simply a MORE reasonable idea to package up and make the Linux product work for now. I've worked for major ISVs and I know the Fear and Loathing that the prospect of Yet Another Platform to support generates (hint: We hate the very idea - it's just More Work(tm)). Why make ISVs jump through those hoops for a market which is *known* to be significantly smaller than the Linux market and for which potential sales are a complete unknown? Make the Linux product work and give them a place to check "FreeBSD customer" for each sale, then maybe they'll change their tunes once they see that the FreeBSD market is actually present and willing to run the Linux product until such time as a native version comes available. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 14:17:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04003 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-18.netcom.ca [207.181.94.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03995 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA14101; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:08:00 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:08:00 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: mike allison , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <3686.861396610@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Then again, so far, there are only two of that even consider this > > to be a reasonable idea *shrug* > > Well, not unreasonable, I simply think it's simply a MORE reasonable > idea to package up and make the Linux product work for now. I've > worked for major ISVs and I know the Fear and Loathing that the > prospect of Yet Another Platform to support generates (hint: We hate > the very idea - it's just More Work(tm)). Why make ISVs jump through > those hoops for a market which is *known* to be significantly smaller > than the Linux market and for which potential sales are a complete > unknown? > > Make the Linux product work and give them a place to check "FreeBSD > customer" for each sale, then maybe they'll change their tunes once > they see that the FreeBSD market is actually present and willing to > run the Linux product until such time as a native version comes > available. Agreed, not a problem with this. Probably wouldn't take much to have some sort of 'I just installed StarOffice on FreeBSD' message sent to StarDivision as part of the install? Maybe have some sort of PGP tag attached to it so that the ppl at StarOffice knew that the install was from a CD? *shrug* I was just using StarOffice as one example... What I'm more suggesting (and with all the talk of 'Commercial Projects' going on in the lists, this may be in the works...) is a CD that I could purchase from Walnut Creek, put into a cdrom at the office and install instead of Windows95 for 'that new guys machine' which, altho *not* Windows, would have a comfortable feel to it...and a pretty consistent one regardless of how many different ppl did the install process. The thing about StarOffice is its a good example of a Unix OfficeSuite that has the benefit that the 'old WinWord 6.0' documents and Excel are loadable... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 14:57:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06690 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06685; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA16309; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:56:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:56:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199704182156.RAA16309@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: dufault@hda.com CC: gpalmer@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199704170233.WAA14502@hda.hda.com> (message from Peter Dufault on Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:17 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: lotd@world.std.com: Laugh Of The Day - Mon, Apr 14 1997 (fwd) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> This looks about right actually > This is obviously fake. The real version starts: > if (IntegralDateFourByteNotBreak2000LatestWindowVersion > IntegralDateFourByteNotBreak2000OneMonthOld)... Just out of curiousity... Do we know of any limits on Visual C++'s variable names? I would expect, based on the speed I've seen, that although the code we've seen is the proper code, it is compiled first through QBASIC. Cheers, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the FSF's, my employer's, or my dog's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 15:00:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06894 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06883 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03145; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:58:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: steve@visint.co.uk, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:50 PDT." <199704182139.OAA02940@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:58:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3131.861400721@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected to -chat; I don't think this is quite -hackers material now] > Doesn't Walnut Creek CDROM have a GIS?!? I don't know how a modern > sales organization could prosper without one... I don't own a sales hat, so you'll first have to tell me what a "GIS" is before I can answer that. :-) > > We're not quite big enough to support that kind of graft. :( > > Is this a "stocking fee" (illegal) or is it a consignment agreement > (legal, but not the way you want to sell, if you sell by stuffing > the channel and praying for rain...)? I could see Egghead wanting Well, this info is being relayed 2nd-hand here (through me) so I may not remember all the details correctly, but essentially they want credits in that amount (e.g. 50K worth of stock) plus up-front money to market it. In other words, WC would need to pay the costs of printing any store advertisements (and there could be quite a number of stores involved) plus newspaper adverts and such. On top of this, they generally want a liberal return policy which allows them to return stock in practically any condition (including downright destroyed) for *full* credit, any outstanding invoices simply not being paid until said credit is given. In other words, they make it damn rough for anyone not willing to risk close-to-6-figure amounts. I really don't know what the legalities are, but clearly there's some fairly broad loophole which allows this. The situation is a little more clear-cut if you're talking about someone like Macy's. As our sales mgr said (who used to deal with Macy's regularly), they've bankrupted many a small business by demanding significant portions of stock up-front, only to return much of the merchandise in soiled and unsaleable condition, demanding a full-refund before paying out any of their outstanding invoices. They'll also pull a number whereby they'll agree to sell your product in some corner of the store but ONLY if you pay for all furniture, track lighting, counters AND the salaries of the folks who work behind them. I was frankly astounded at this - I had no idea that the "big boys" had the clout to ram "deals" like this down vendor throats. > FreeBSD is (essentially) a UNIX-clone product... have you contacted > the UNIX products division of Ingram Micro-D? Heh, we've been trying to get in bed with Ingram for 4 years now. :-{ Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 16:33:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12957 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA12950 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id TAA16786; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:25 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199704182332.TAA16786@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scrappy@hub.org CC: mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from The Hermit Hacker on Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:47 -0300 (ADT)) Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What other products are out there that could go into a commercial >quality (business-quality?) CD? Xaccel? McAfee(sp?) Virus scan? CDE? Is a virus scan really a necessary commodity for a BSD distribution? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 16:38:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13671 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13666 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id TAA16808; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:37:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:37:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199704182337.TAA16808@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scrappy@hub.org CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from The Hermit Hacker on Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:08:00 -0300 (ADT)) Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What I'm more suggesting (and with all the talk of 'Commercial >Projects' going on in the lists, this may be in the works...) is a >CD that I could purchase from Walnut Creek, put into a cdrom at the >office and install instead of Windows95 for 'that new guys machine' >which, altho *not* Windows, would have a comfortable feel to it...and >a pretty consistent one regardless of how many different ppl did the >install process. One of my favourite aspects of Walnut Creek is the assurance that I could always get source to the programs. Is this no longer true? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 16:43:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13917 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13908 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27676; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:13 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: scrappy@hub.org, mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:37:48 EDT." <199704182337.TAA16808@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:12 -0700 Message-ID: <27655.861406992@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > What I'm more suggesting (and with all the talk of 'Commercial > >Projects' going on in the lists, this may be in the works...) is a > >CD that I could purchase from Walnut Creek, put into a cdrom at the > >office and install instead of Windows95 for 'that new guys machine' > >which, altho *not* Windows, would have a comfortable feel to it...and > >a pretty consistent one regardless of how many different ppl did the > >install process. > > One of my favourite aspects of Walnut Creek is the assurance that I > could always get source to the programs. Is this no longer true? Well, not if they're commercial, but then you don't have to buy any of the commercial software + FreeBSD bundles if this kind of thing bothers you. :-) The "base line" product will remain the same full-source thing it always was (though I should note that much of what's in the "commerce" distribution has always been binary-only and nobody's complained). Expecting any and all FreeBSD commercial software vendors to distribute sources for their products just so that we could say "yes, full sources for EVERYTHING!" would be more than a little silly. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 17:01:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14956 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14951 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id UAA16902; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:00:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:00:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199704190000.UAA16902@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: scrappy@hub.org, mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <27655.861406992@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Well, not if they're commercial, but then you don't have to buy any of >the commercial software + FreeBSD bundles if this kind of thing >bothers you. :-) >The "base line" product will remain the same full-source thing it >always was (though I should note that much of what's in the "commerce" >distribution has always been binary-only and nobody's complained). >Expecting any and all FreeBSD commercial software vendors to >distribute sources for their products just so that we could say "yes, >full sources for EVERYTHING!" would be more than a little silly. Nor am I suggesting that you should; I was merely asking a question. (No offense intended, I'm sure; none taken, I hope.) -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 17:06:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15212 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15207 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA03453; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:04:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704190004.RAA03453@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:04:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, steve@visint.co.uk, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3131.861400721@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 18, 97 02:58:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Redirected to -chat; I don't think this is quite -hackers material now] > > > Doesn't Walnut Creek CDROM have a GIS?!? I don't know how a modern > > sales organization could prosper without one... > > I don't own a sales hat, so you'll first have to tell me what a "GIS" > is before I can answer that. :-) Geographic Information System. It allows you to track markets by location and density, and to target locations where population is high but density is low. That way you can have average sales everywhere instead of high sales some places... er, wait a minute... 8-). > > Is this a "stocking fee" (illegal) or is it a consignment agreement > > (legal, but not the way you want to sell, if you sell by stuffing > > the channel and praying for rain...)? I could see Egghead wanting > > Well, this info is being relayed 2nd-hand here (through me) so I may > not remember all the details correctly, but essentially they want > credits in that amount (e.g. 50K worth of stock) plus up-front money > to market it. In other words, WC would need to pay the costs of > printing any store advertisements (and there could be quite a number > of stores involved) plus newspaper adverts and such. On top of this, > they generally want a liberal return policy which allows them to > return stock in practically any condition (including downright > destroyed) for *full* credit, any outstanding invoices simply not > being paid until said credit is given. In other words, they make it > damn rough for anyone not willing to risk close-to-6-figure amounts. > I really don't know what the legalities are, but clearly there's some > fairly broad loophole which allows this. I'm pretty sure that they are talking about consignment, then, where you front the money for the product and the shipping, and if they sell it they pay you, and if they don't, you pay return costs or destruction costs, whichever you want. Similar to book sales to bookstores: they rip the cover off and send it back, and are supposed to destroy the rest of the book. I don't know if the collateral marketing agreemesnts are really a requirement, or a nice thing to get them to push the product instead of just selling it if someone asks for it. Part of the amount may be a "catalog fee", where there is a fee charged to have your product published as "available" in their catalog, and it's probably not required either, but if the dealers don't know about the product, then they aren't going to ask for it, either. The Apple approach to this problem was to create "grass-roots" demand for the product, and avoid the intermediate marketing fees. Guy Kawasaki called this "market pull instead of market push" and it dealt with servicing channel requests, not jamming stuff into the channel. Part of this is overcoming the "popcorn product" issue... Walnut Creek sells products that are generally included as "popcorn" ("if you buy the movie ticket, you're going to need popcorn") that is bundled in with another product. If I had a choice, I go the Apple route, or I'd "popcorn" the product. For example, if FreeBSD could modify existing partitions ala partition magic safely and run reliably (LBA support, VFATFS/VFAT32 support that didn't trash the rest of the drive), and could be offered as a "popcorn" product, you might get "USA Flex" (the guys on the back of Computer Shopper) to bundle the thing with their machines for some small margin as an "also ran" or "alternate" OS. As "popcorn". You know that Tony Overfield is one of the guys who did Dell UNIX at Dell, right? That should lend a bit of creedence to his requests for getting the memory size and disk geometries from the BIOS... 8-). Speaking of people whose opinions should be listened to, you know that A Joseph Koshy of HP in India is the guy who did the X stuff for UnixWare (about the only thing done really, really well in it, apart from the VM which the rest of the kernel shamelessly underutilized)? Another potential comarketing idea is the "free software" scenario, as in the floppy disks that came with one disk with some kind of software on it. It had two functions (1) it was "value add" that could be added cheaply (the market demanded the disks be formated, and you might as well duplicate data at the same time) and (2) it created more demand for the initial product. For instance, consider if you could produce a "low end" FreeBSD that could fit in 100M. If you could, you could offer it to Syquest and IOmega for their 5/10 packs. It's worth the per-disk margin or more to these people: (A) the installed product is a "freebee"; you can't sell them another "tools" disk, like you did with the "included" cartridge to encourage them to buy media, and you need something, and (B) If the person does not erase the disk, they have just increased the potential need for another disk by one unit by pre-"using up" one of the units the customer bought. Just like the "free software" gimmick on floppies. Barring that, the typical approach for CDROM sales is to shovel all the titles you have into the channel at a high enough margin that if only a percentage sells, you get a profit. So you end up in "budgo" channels, and they operate on consignment unless you make up for it to them by providing volume, and even then, if you want to add a title that's not in the original contract, well, you're screwed back to square one. I don't think FreeBSD CDROMs are in the same market category as most of WC's other products. I think they can be sold through easier if they are easier to deal with (install-wise). One big help? A Win-based installer and an Autorun.inf file to pop it up when they stuff in the CDROM. Click. Click. Installing FreeBSD, please wait... > The situation is a little more clear-cut if you're talking about > someone like Macy's. As our sales mgr said (who used to deal with > Macy's regularly), they've bankrupted many a small business by > demanding significant portions of stock up-front, only to return much > of the merchandise in soiled and unsaleable condition, demanding a > full-refund before paying out any of their outstanding invoices. > They'll also pull a number whereby they'll agree to sell your product > in some corner of the store but ONLY if you pay for all furniture, > track lighting, counters AND the salaries of the folks who work behind > them. I was frankly astounded at this - I had no idea that the "big > boys" had the clout to ram "deals" like this down vendor throats. Well, check their D&B's -- they are probably screwed royally. Better to not deal with them [anticipating the question: D&B's: Dunn and Bradstreet number, a commercial credit identification system that a vendor can use to establish a line of credit with a supplier in place of bank credit references]. > > FreeBSD is (essentially) a UNIX-clone product... have you contacted > > the UNIX products division of Ingram Micro-D? > > Heh, we've been trying to get in bed with Ingram for 4 years now. :-{ Hmmm. I know the vice president in charge of the UNIX products division; we went bar-diving with the Australian Navy at Uniforum in Lessee, San Francisco in 90 (91? I can't remember which one was in DC). I'll ask; are you sure you've been dealing with the UNIX Products Division, or have you been pushing it as a PC OS? He may be cold to the idea given the current install, though... 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 18:20:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18734 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18727 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08613; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:20:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: dennis , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:12:25 PDT." <33583819.44D1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:20:18 -0700 Message-ID: <8611.861412818@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [redirected to -chat] > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Damn, Dennis has guessed our secret. > > ... > > Trust Dennis to see The Truth(tm) - I should have known better than to > > let anything slip to him! > > Jordan, get me his address and a foto. I am half Italian, half > Colombian...I can "fix" this. If you're both of those, you should easily be able to track him down yourself. Of course, there may be a long line when you get there. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 18:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19194 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19188 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.50]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16881; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:32:45 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33583B8C.15CD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:27:08 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: dennis , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <8611.861412818@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If you're both of those, you should easily be able to track him down > yourself. Of course, there may be a long line when you get there. ;-) > I'm in other business right now, I'll consider adding it for in my agenda, but I don't think it's worth calling my friends and family :) > Jordan BTW, Thanks to whomever moved this to chat. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 19:36:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21421 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21415 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA29085; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:06:33 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704190236.MAA29085@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <3535.861395913@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 18, 97 01:38:33 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:06:33 +0930 (CST) Cc: sef@Kithrup.COM, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > No, I unfortunately was not kidding. :-( I got a little education > yesterday about the retail sales trade and it was not a pretty > picture. It truly is a racket of immense proportions. Heh, my old man works in the "big" retail league over here; "immense" doesn't even begin to describe it. The world is _not_ a pretty place. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 22:18:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA26578 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-26.netcom.ca [207.181.94.154]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26573 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id CAA15990; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:13 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:13 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <199704182332.TAA16786@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > What other products are out there that could go into a commercial > >quality (business-quality?) CD? Xaccel? McAfee(sp?) Virus scan? CDE? > > Is a virus scan really a necessary commodity for a BSD distribution? No, guess not...just got carried away? :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 22:19:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA26619 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-26.netcom.ca [207.181.94.154]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26613 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id CAA15995; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:58 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:58 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <199704182337.TAA16808@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > What I'm more suggesting (and with all the talk of 'Commercial > >Projects' going on in the lists, this may be in the works...) is a > >CD that I could purchase from Walnut Creek, put into a cdrom at the > >office and install instead of Windows95 for 'that new guys machine' > >which, altho *not* Windows, would have a comfortable feel to it...and > >a pretty consistent one regardless of how many different ppl did the > >install process. > > One of my favourite aspects of Walnut Creek is the assurance that I > could always get source to the programs. Is this no longer true? Huh? How did that question come out of this discussion? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 22:38:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA27231 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27224 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10771; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:22 -0700 (PDT) To: jack cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:47:28 EDT." Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:21 -0700 Message-ID: <10769.861428301@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > naked let 'em. That actually sounds like a lot of fun - anyone up for this during the next solstice? Flights to Heathrow in the off-season are pretty cheap. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 23:11:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28171 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-26.netcom.ca [207.181.94.154]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28166 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id DAA16410; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:11:02 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:11:02 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <10769.861428301@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > > together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > > naked let 'em. > > That actually sounds like a lot of fun - anyone up for this during the > next solstice? Flights to Heathrow in the off-season are pretty > cheap. :-) Actually, Stonehenge is closed and guarded during the solstice(s) :( I watch much to much TLC...they did this series on Stonehenge, and I guess the ravages of time (and 1000's of ppl) are starting to take their toll :( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 18 23:36:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28925 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28918 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA12496; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:36:08 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Mark Mayo cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <19970418222756.50658@vinyl.quickweb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Mark Mayo wrote: Transplanted from: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > But seriously, the CS departments are where FreeBSD needs to aim its > marketing arrows at - learn from the Tobacco companies: get 'em hooked > while they're young and they'll be yours for eternity. Talk about deja vu all over again, didn't a company named AT&T do this with a new product they had called Unix? Anyone know if the tactic worked? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 00:51:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00976 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00968 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA17795 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:51:00 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10902; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:50:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970419095004.JG24836@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:50:04 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704181522.JAA21382@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Apr 18, 1997 14:17:17 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > You can have a feature set, or you can have a date, but you can't > have both, and a date will keep the stock price up. Somebody should put this into the fortune database. I think it's fairly unusual that Terry can express a really meaningful thing in just two lines. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 05:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14548 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14543 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id HAA08774; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:20:36 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Apr 19, 97 03:11:02 am" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:20:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > > > together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > > > naked let 'em. > > > > That actually sounds like a lot of fun - anyone up for this during the > > next solstice? Flights to Heathrow in the off-season are pretty > > cheap. :-) > > Actually, Stonehenge is closed and guarded during the solstice(s) :( > > I watch much to much TLC...they did this series on Stonehenge, and > I guess the ravages of time (and 1000's of ppl) are starting to take their > toll :( > Years ago, when I worked in England, I travelled over to Stonehenge (it was much newer then :-), well okay -- maybe only 14yrs less old :-)). It is much more impressive in person than one can possibly experience on TV. It probably isn't worth flying to England from the Americas just to see Stonehenge (unless your religious tastes are vastly different than mine :-)), but it was worth driving over to look. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 06:52:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17267 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17262 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA15865; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:50:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Bishop cc: dennis , nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:02:06 BST." Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:50:55 -0700 Message-ID: <15863.861457855@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected to -chat out of compassion] > At 22:40 +0100 18/4/97, dennis wrote: > >[...] > >You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can > >do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you > >had to reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people > > using something else > > So why aren't there a lot of people using something else? :-) :-) Bottom line? Ease of use. That damn GUI interface and point-and-click setup tools have lowered the cost of ownership just enough that the Unwashed Masses(tm) can drive the thing around without a Master's degree, and that's what got the ISVs to jump aboard with their thousands of office applications, closing the loop and propelling Billy to Billionare status. Anyone remember Windows prior to 3.0? Not many do, and for awhile it even looked like the whole technology was going to fall flat on its face (I remember the trade rags of the time saying "Windows? No thanks" and "Windows: Microsoft's million dollar mistake") - then they got their acts together and substantially improved the interface and the administration tools, at which point the damn thing just took off. Note that the underlying product was still an unholy P.O.S. (no expansion of that acronym should be necessary) and GPFs were the order of the day, but still it was purchased by the truckload - it was simply easier to come to grips with than any of the alternatives (IBM was still having schizophrenia problems with its OS/2 strategy and thus wasn't a serious player while the critical market window was open). Of course, over in the UN*X world, we were right in the middle of fighting the GUI wars and inventing a window system that only engineers could love, so we got passed by. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 07:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20027 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20022 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28655; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:47:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:47:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704191447.IAA28655@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182210.PAA03046@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704182210.PAA03046@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Moved to -chat ] > I don't think so... but I may be prohibited from joining it because > of being a charter member on the > > GetTheHellOutOfTheWayTheFutureIsComingWhetherYouDamnWellLikeItOrNot@ > YouStinkingTechnophobicCowards.ORG > > list. It's served on the same machine as the > > GetTheHellOutOfTheWayYouAreGoing45MilesPerHourInTheFastLane@ > DontYouRealizeThatYouAreOldAndDontHaveTimeToWasteLikeThis.ORG > > list. > > Of course, if you've shown any neo-luddite tendencies at all, your > DNS won't even see the domain, let alone the mailserver letting you > subscribe to the thing. Anyone named Kazinski need not apply. Dang, I guess that means I'll have to tell uncle Ted what you've been saying about him. I suspect he'll want me to send you that 'present' I've been storing for him these last few years. Nate ps. In case you didn't know, until recently I lived about 30 miles from our beloved friend. But, he moved closer to the Bay Area recently. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:10:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21013 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21008 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA13458; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A3E73.7FF897E8@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:04:03 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <10769.861428301@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How come we only get to do it once a month? Can't we simulate a full moon and do it, oh say, nightly????? -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > > together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > > naked let 'em. > > That actually sounds like a lot of fun - anyone up for this during the > next solstice? Flights to Heathrow in the off-season are pretty > cheap. :-) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:13:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21127 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21115 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28818; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:13:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:13:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704191513.JAA28818@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Rudy Gireyev Cc: "'John S. Dyson'" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to -chat ] > With all due respect John, what you say is true, however > it does not invalidate what Tony said about Nate. Basically > Nate is talking about something he has no idea about > (something he flames Terry for). Umm, you're saying I don't understand that I'm forced to re-install Win95 on a regular basis, and that most of the people I know that have used any M$ OS with the name 'Windows' on it consider re-installing on a regular basis 'normal'? Glad you can speak for me, since I obviously made it all up, and have no experience with M$ OS's. (Obviously much less than Terry, and my being a M$-Professional Level development subscription for the last 3 years must be a figment of my imagination, though I think the $1K/year my company spends for it and Win32 development tools isn't a figment.) Sheesh, maybe suicide would be a way out for you. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:21:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21637 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21623 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA13560; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A40D8.37E3760C@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:14:16 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" CC: The Hermit Hacker , jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John: I beg to differ -- ANY reason to visit England from America is worth it. I wish more Americans could see and understand the wonderful differences between our countries. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to which I truely call home.... I noticed this same thing about Mount Rushmore.... I thought it would be `Nice' to visit but, when I saw it in person - WOW! It was really majestic, especially to think that MAN (gender neutral) had built this marvel..... -Mike John S. Dyson wrote: is > much more impressive in person than one can possibly experience on TV. > It probably isn't worth flying to England from the Americas just to see > Stonehenge (unless your religious tastes are vastly different than mine :-)), > but it was worth driving over to look. > > John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:31:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22335 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22330 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id KAA27351; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:30:56 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704191530.KAA27351@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <335A40D8.37E3760C@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 09:14:16 am" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:30:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > John: > > I beg to differ -- ANY reason to visit England from America is worth > it. I wish more Americans could see and understand the wonderful > differences between our countries. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to which > I truely call home.... > Okay, I agree with that point. The differences ARE striking, and would create a different viewpoint as to the way things are in the world for most Americans (in particular.) Frankly, IF I ever did retire, I would easily consider England over the traditional retirement areas of the U.S. any day. I greatly enjoyed the lack of excessive (and as in the U.S. typically grossly mistimed) stop n' go lights there :-). The most irritating thing is that the 1-2min delays that those things cause didn't exist as often, and so I didn't get a chance to read the paper in the morning :-). The worst thing that I remember about the time there, wasn't actually a problem when I was there, but when I came back, I had problems driving at times, with some embarassing situations happening. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22934 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22926 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA13747; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:38:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A4537.7AC6599C@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:32:55 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Bob Bishop , dennis , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <15863.861457855@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To the question: > So why aren't there a lot of people using something else? :-) :-) Jordan K. Hubbard wrote> > Bottom line? Ease of use. That damn GUI interface and > point-and-click setup tools have lowered the cost of ownership just > enough that the Unwashed Masses(tm) > > Of course, over in the UN*X world, we were right in the middle of > fighting the GUI wars and inventing a window system that only > engineers could love, so we got passed by. ;-) > > Jordan I think too, if we recall, the `Look and Feel' decision which killed quite a few projects. Remember GEM? Anyone seen the Original GEM (Ver 1.0)? I happen to own a copy. Makes the PC look, feel and ACT like, oh I'm sorry, EXCATLY Like, a Mac. GEM had to be totally redesigned to keep its `look and feel' from being Mac-y. I think all these selfish law suits and buyouts and closed systems are what killed the market. The technical exception was Windows which King William opened up and made sure there were planty of SDKs available along with `Runtime packages' to release with your product. As we've all pointed out, pointless times, Bill's marketing was perfect for everyone -- the increase in overhead demanded more better systems which meant more stuff to sell and this in turn led to more s/w development and more overhead.... dah dah dah.... I think the real shame in all of this, as I've ALWAYS said, is that the whole computer thing was and is a big MARKETING SCAM. No one gives a shit about users and installations and some sort of stability within the market and the platforms... they're just all out to make BIG MONEY... And we all get caught up in the NEWER BETTER FASTER games.... I think the Free world is always trying to improve their product but some (Linux world esp) still eagerly await every little release because they think they're getting more More MORE.... So, if I'm a little guy who just wants to market a good product, how do I keep up with all this perceived instability? Wouldn't it be better if fixes and features were worked on, compiled and released annually at the least? And that we begin to focus a bit less on making the systems work perfectly and more towards helping commercial vendors work within the platform? NT is nice.... it has some bullet proof features.... but NOW I can't get at the machine. I can't get a command line interface. At least in X I can pull an Xterm and manipulate the machine. NT/95, like the Mac interface. Don't trust me to have that access. It's similar to automated online card systems at the library. It only works when I can think like the system expects me to think. Sometimes I just want to browse through the cards and do things myself.... It's only a matter of time before Micrsoft figures out a way to break into the FreeUnix world.... wait and see.... the first product will be Front Page...... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 08:57:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23682 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23663; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA13944; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:56:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A4973.5C411E8A@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:50:59 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@freebsd.org CC: scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191530.KAA27351@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The thing I LOVE about England is that I NEVER have to drive. No Parking, finding the car, negotiating traffic, getting uptight....No, No, no.... Americans are too wed to their cars to ever really appreciate the benefits of mass transit. The part I enjoy is the social aspect of seeing friends and making friends on the train & bus. I don't think americans are all that keen on making friends, though... -Mike John S. Dyson wrote: > The worst thing that I remember about the time there, wasn't actually > a problem when I was there, but when I came back, I had problems driving > at times, with some embarassing situations happening. > > John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 09:15:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24690 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24674; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id LAA27445; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:15:19 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704191615.LAA27445@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <335A4973.5C411E8A@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 09:50:59 am" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:15:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The thing I LOVE about England is that I NEVER have to drive. No > Parking, finding the car, negotiating traffic, getting uptight....No, > No, no.... > Well, I lived in a small town -- even there was some mass transit, but not enough to be convienient. I had very very seldom gone to London or any other big city -- I way VERY happy where I was. Most of my friends there did drive cars to/from work, the store, etc. With my temperment, I think being in a big city is like being in a zoo -- nice place to visit (and very interesting), but sure wouldn't want to live there. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 09:29:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25058 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25053 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA03935; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) To: mike allison cc: Bob Bishop , dennis , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:32:55 PDT." <335A4537.7AC6599C@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > quite a few projects. Remember GEM? Anyone seen the Original GEM (Ver Yeah, I do. It wasn't half bad, which is why I figured it died. :-) "BETAmaxed" > I think the real shame in all of this, as I've ALWAYS said, is that the > whole computer thing was and is a big MARKETING SCAM. No one gives a Heh heh, of course! ;-) We're still at the stage where all the solutions are imperfect and don't even begin to approach what people *really* want (HAL 9000), so we get to play the same games that early "doctors" played - you'd throw your money at any quack healer in hopes that he'd make you better because none of the healers available were all that good or knew what they were doing, about the best you could hope for being one who knew a little more about anatomy and the pharmacology of plants than he did about feathers and snake rattles and could actually do that compound fracture of yours some good. Basically, yntil we've got HAL and I can simply walk around my house and dialog with the computer or have it generate complex images on any of my high-definition televisions (I figure HAL and HDTV will come out around the same time ;), I'm going to have to pay a lot of money for less than I want. That's called a marketing opportunity. :-) > NT is nice.... it has some bullet proof features.... but NOW I can't get > at the machine. I can't get a command line interface. At least in X I > can pull an Xterm and manipulate the machine. NT/95, like the Mac > interface. Don't trust me to have that access. It's similar to > automated online card systems at the library. It only works when I can > think like the system expects me to think. Sometimes I just want to > browse through the cards and do things myself.... Yes, however, our problem is that we don't have BOTH and we really should. I mean, imagine it - all the fancy setup and configuration tools (and SDKs and style guides and ...) of Win95 and the underpinnings of UNIX for those who wanted it underneath. Elite users get a shell, GUI-heads get a desktop with all the usual icons and start buttons (which we can have now with fvwm95, admittedly, but there's nothing really *under* those buttons :-). That would truly be the best of both worlds, and the only thing I've seen which actually comes remotely close is OS/2. It actually has a decent network suite (very Berkeley-ish and probably ported from it) and one of the best X servers for a non-UNIX platform I've ever used. Of course, we all know what's happening to OS/2.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 09:38:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25380 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25375; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA14484; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:37:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A52F1.4D116716@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:31:29 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@freebsd.org CC: scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191615.LAA27445@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We always stay in Halifax and the nearby small villages where our family live. The villes are all on the main traffic line so it's a cynch to hop a bus or train and go up and down the line. Of course, West Yorkshire has a nice metro pass for bus & train in the whole county for the same price. We grab one of those and for 8 or 10 pound a week, we're set.... -Mike (I'm sure this somehow relates to *BSD) John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > Well, I lived in a small town -- even there was some mass transit, > but not enough to be convienient. I had very very seldom gone to > London or any other big city -- I way VERY happy where I was. Most > of my friends there did drive cars to/from work, the store, etc. > > John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:04:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26240 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26233 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA14753; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:02:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A58D3.4C3199AA@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:56:35 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Bob Bishop , dennis , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > We're still at the stage where all the solutions are imperfect and > don't even begin to approach what people *really* want (HAL 9000), so > we get to play the same games that early "doctors" played - The scarey thing is that the Doctors REALLY aren't that much smarter. The Chemists are getting smarter, the scientists are smarter, but there's a big gap between the chemistry and science AND the doctor. Doctors are still much more naturopathic than we might like to admit... Computers, the same. We're not much better off in the user realm than we were with Mac OS 7.0. Sure, there are some smart people who do cool things, but they're far from the user. What was the quote on the hill during the Year 2000 Problem discussions: These systems we're designed in the 50's, 60's and 70's to last for 10 years, but we're still depending on them. That's reality. Over all, we're just now seeing widespread implementation of GUIs at most every level and we're not sophisticated enough to take out those command line backdoors where all the real work is done. My sister, who is a city accountant, recently asked me how to transfer Wordperfect files from their PC tapes to their RS6000 mainframe Unix. They had spent hours trying every command and combination in the book. I asked if they tried `TAR' and she said "yeah, I think, but I don't know what that is.." I said Tape ARchive, you know, transfer things from Tape..." She thought it was cool that there was a program to do that... but couldn't use it. > > Basically, yntil we've got HAL and I can simply walk around my house > and dialog with the computer or have it generate complex images on any > of my high-definition televisions (I figure HAL and HDTV will come out > around the same time ;), I'm going to have to pay a lot of money for > less than I want. That's called a marketing opportunity. :-) > > Yes, however, our problem is that we don't have BOTH and we really > should. I guess that was my point. The GUIs are nice for people who just want to get things done and abstract themselves from the H/W. But we still need access to all the tools and H/W features... > That would truly be the best of both worlds, and the only thing I've > seen which actually comes remotely close is OS/2. It actually has a > decent network suite (very Berkeley-ish and probably ported from it) > and one of the best X servers for a non-UNIX platform I've ever used. > Of course, we all know what's happening to OS/2.. :-) > > Jordan I actually like OS/2. My same hardware seemed to interact with the INet much faster through OS/2's software. I thought it was nice, but again, there were few apps native to OS/2. In the long run, you were running Dos/Windows apps and might as well have been running Dos... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:15:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26739 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26734 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id NAA20555; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:14:47 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:14:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net CC: mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from jack on Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:36:08 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> But seriously, the CS departments are where FreeBSD needs to aim its >> marketing arrows at - learn from the Tobacco companies: get 'em hooked >> while they're young and they'll be yours for eternity. > Talk about deja vu all over again, didn't a company named AT&T do this > with a new product they had called Unix? Anyone know if the tactic > worked? This was before my time, but I thought that was how Unix came into the popular market. People would use it to do learning, then research, then commercial applications. How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to take the spotlight? Happy hacking, piquan -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:24:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27089 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27079 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous226.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.226]) by bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13223; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:23:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA01268; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:38:00 +0200 (MET DST) To: Joel Sutton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HP "ports" - A weekly new-ports announcement idea?? References: <199704160339.NAA01475@solsbury-hill.home> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 19 Apr 1997 15:37:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Joel Sutton's message of Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:39:32 +1000 Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Sutton writes: > Wouldn't it be nice if ..... (oh not another I hear you cry!) > ... a message was posted to announce (or similar) showing the new ports > that have been added, perhaps on a weekly basis? Try http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/cgi/ports.cgi -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:34:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27776 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27770 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id OAA21252; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:34:00 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:34:00 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > take the spotlight? Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:37:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27891 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27886 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA15241; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:36:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A60F5.57543530@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:31:17 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <335A5CD0.706E5490@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:13:36 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704191711.NAA20533@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Ray Holveck wrote: >> One of my favourite aspects of Walnut Creek is the assurance that I > >> could always get source to the programs. Is this no longer true? > > Huh? How did that question come out of this discussion? > > Well, if WC puts commercial software on a CD, then you wouldn't be > getting the source with it. Joel: Again, I think this is common. We don't get ALL of the source with current distributions. Everything that conforms to GPL offers the source, but not everything on WC/Linux distros complies with GPL. I think if you DON'T see `Free' (as in No Cost) packages in the distros (I'm speaking about Netscape and Mosaic) it's becuase the OWNERS want to control the distribution, not because the package compilers left them out due to GPL. PrimeTime Freeware includes a number of packages without source which are freely distributable and possibly Sales-worthy, but you won't get the code. Go back to Msrc's origianl point which, I believe, centered around `Popular, commercial' distributions. Meaning a non-hackers (in every sense) could pop the disc in and run a program, just like their Dos version. As a way to bring in users to FreeUnix installations and make those installations more attractive to the decision makers when picking new installations or extensions. We don't need the source, we need the committment and interest from the commercial developers. They will be scared even thinking their source might get out... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:49:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28271 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28266 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA15421; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A63C3.C9897D1@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:43:15 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > >> But seriously, the CS departments are where FreeBSD needs to aim its > >> marketing arrows at - learn from the Tobacco companies: get 'em hooked > >> while they're young and they'll be yours for eternity. > > Talk about deja vu all over again, didn't a company named AT&T do this > > with a new product they had called Unix? Anyone know if the tactic > > worked? > > This was before my time, but I thought that was how Unix came into the > popular market. People would use it to do learning, then research, > then commercial applications. > > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > take the spotlight? > > Happy hacking, > piquan Joel: UNIX was introduced basically FREE to universities. After those students left, they took their understanding and love for Unix into the world. AT&T couldn't sell UNIX due to Trade Restrictions and monopoly laws. Eventually they closed up the free distro and made it a Licensed product through one of their subsidiary organizations. Micrsoft rented the code and became a licensed reseller of Unix through Xenix. SCO then took off from MS to handle XENIX completely. NOVELL bought the rights to Unix from AT&T, Bell Labs. FreeBSD was released about that time (well, A Free BSD) but was immediately impounded by NOVELL/Unix Software Labs for carrying proprietary code. (The fixes Berkeley returned to AT&T to wrap into Unix). Thus, the first Free Unix, BSD, fell out of the market. Linux was just emerging at this time and took over in the vaccuum. The *BSDs are actually much more stable and More Real (tm) Unixen than Linux which is, at the kernel, a unique clone. There will soon be a POSIX/Unix compliant Linux, but Caldera will charge upwards or $100 for the distro, as I understand. Anyway, don't quote me on any of this. It get's confusing. SCO now has the original source code rights, having bought them from NOVELL, at least, the last I heard. I don't know who owns UNIX, and I don't care because it belongs to all of us.... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 10:53:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28442 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28434 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paul@localhost) by originat.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA10250; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:56:46 +0100 (BST) To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Joel Ray Holveck , jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: From: Paul Richards Date: 19 Apr 1997 18:56:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:34:00 -0300 (ADT) Message-ID: <87iv1isxpd.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker writes: > > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > > take the spotlight? > > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think > its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played > with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... Not really a very accurate piece of history. 386BSD and Linux were born at *roughly* the same time. I had 0.x (where x was very low) versions of Linux at around the time that I also had 386BSD 0.0 so there wasn't much in it and they were both equally unusable as "real" systems, 386BSD barely stayed up and Linux had no networking. I think the main reason Linux picked up so quickly was it grew up in a different environment. It developed from the Minix crowd and DOS users who wanted to try Unix, which was always a much bigger audience, whereas 386BSD grew up in the BSD community which was a much tighter nit group of people who weren't to evangelical about this wonderful new system called unix since it wasn't new to them. Nate or Bruce could probably comment since they were both in the Minix camp when all this started. It would make an interesting book, the history of free unix. It's perhaps a bit too soon to write it though. -- Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. Internet: paul@originat.demon.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (UK Mobile) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:02:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28693 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28687 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA20718; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:01:53 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:01:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199704191801.OAA20718@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scrappy@hub.org CC: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from The Hermit Hacker on Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:34:00 -0300 (ADT)) Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to >> take the spotlight? > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think >its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played >with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... What about NetBSD? I thought it was around before Linux. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:09:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28918 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28913 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA22926; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:04 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:04 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199704191809.LAA22926@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <15863.861457855.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:02:06 BST." Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <15863.861457855.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> Jordan writes: >Note that the underlying product was still an unholy P.O.S. (no >expansion of that acronym should be necessary) I've never liked point-of-sale terminals, myself. >(IBM >was still having schizophrenia problems with its OS/2 strategy I'd like to point out that OS/2's early problems stemmed from it being a uSoft product originally. But when Windows 3.0 took off (and 3.0.1 because actually usable by people), uSoft decided they did not want to deal with OS/2 anymore, and left it on IBM's doorstep. Which is kinda a pity -- the 286-centric OS/2 sucked dead blue donkeys%, but given that it came from uSoft, I'm not surprised. IBM did a good job of improving it, I always thought, a couple of years later. Sean. ----- % A hapence if you can identify th esource of that phrase. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:09:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28953 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28942 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA15702; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:08:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A6860.83DC74A@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:02:56 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704191759.NAA20704@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wasn't aware that WC only did Free software. I know that GNU only did GPL compliant stuff. But I think WC have always published whatever made them money and was Freely distributable. That's the real issue here, if the commercial folks would grant a license allowing you to copy my binaries freely from my CD. I don't think that will happen... -Mike Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > >>>> One of my favourite aspects of Walnut Creek is the assurance that I > >>>> could always get source to the programs. Is this no longer true? > >>> Huh? How did that question come out of this discussion? > >> Well, if WC puts commercial software on a CD, then you wouldn't be > >> getting the source with it. > >Again, I think this is common. We don't get ALL of the source with > >current distributions. Everything that conforms to GPL offers the > >source, but not everything on WC/Linux distros complies with GPL. > > This is correct, although I had been under the impression that WC only > published free (as in free to modify and distribute) software. > > >I think if you DON'T see `Free' (as in No Cost) packages in the distros > >(I'm speaking about Netscape and Mosaic) it's becuase the OWNERS want to > >control the distribution, not because the package compilers left them > >out due to GPL. > > Very possibly. > > >We don't need the source, we need the committment and interest from the > >commercial developers. They will be scared even thinking their source > >might get out... > > Agreed. I have no problem with this (or, more to the point, my > problem is with the software manufacturers, not with WC); I was just > suprised to see the idea of WC publishing non-free software so > nonchalantly. > > -- > http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu > All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. > > Second law of programming: > Anything that can go wrong wi > sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:14:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29278 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29269 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA15754; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:13:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A6988.2968E420@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:07:52 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards CC: The Hermit Hacker , Joel Ray Holveck , jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <87iv1isxpd.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards wrote: > It would make an interesting book, the history of free unix. It's > perhaps a bit too soon to write it though. > How 'bout "Free Unix, a Living History"..... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:17:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29525 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29520 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA23491; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:17:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:17:24 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199704191817.LAA23491@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: References: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article Marc writes: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: >> How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to >> take the spotlight? > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think >its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played >with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... Linux beat 386bsd out the door by a few months, maybe as much as a year. However, Bill Jolitz did not immediately make 386BSD available for ftp; linux was immediately available. So people outside of Silicon Valley did not hear about it in as much numbers as they heard about Linux. But that can be rectified. Remember, Linus now lives in the Bay Area. I know where he lives. I know where he works. I know what his cats look like. The ramifications are obvious. Bwahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha! Ahem. Back to my point. As an aside, if Linux networking had been usable at the time 386BSD came out, I would now be running linux, not freebsd. (And, frankly, if certain persons had not been running the netbsd systems, there's a good chance I'd be working with *that*. Don't you all feel special now? :)) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:18:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29597 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29591 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA15819; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:17:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A6A8D.11FDA5F1@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:12:13 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards CC: The Hermit Hacker , Joel Ray Holveck , jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <87iv1isxpd.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards wrote: inux had no networking. > > I think the main reason Linux picked up so quickly was it grew up in a > different environment. It developed from the Minix crowd and DOS users > who wanted to try Unix, which was always a much bigger audience, > whereas 386BSD grew up in the BSD community which was a much tighter > nit group of people who weren't to evangelical about this wonderful > new system called unix since it wasn't new to them. Paul: I wrote and remember that NET/2 BSD was attached by USL/NOVELL at this very time when they sued BSDI. I think this REALLY prompted the Linux movement because NET/2 had been released for a short period and there was a taste for free unix. Torvalds fed this market with his idea for a free independent Unix (and some help with his homework, no doubt). But I think BSD COULDN'T take off, not Didn't... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:24:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29824 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29810 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA21450; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:23:49 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:23:49 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: Joel Ray Holveck , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A6091.4D94174B@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > A commercial CD would mean I'd have something that I consider to be > > solid to go at the manager of IS with and say "here, a very good operating > > system with appropriate software", with which I'd have a chance of getting > > him/her into testing for office computers...as a *much cheaper* replacement > > for Win95/NT...*and* that is more stable, and more efficient... > > > > Its generally a seperate market that I was looking at, from 'the > > Hackers' that Linux/RedHat has been smart enough to work at tapping... > > Again, here Marc and I differ slightly in that I think Marc says - A > ditribution which includes these commercial packages. The packages > would have free use licenses to non-commercial users. I don't think > that will work, exactly for these reasons: Hrmmm...no. I was more looking at something like this. I work for the IS department of a company that is currently looking at upgrading machine, or just installing some more machines for new staff. I'm a FreeBSD advocate, and would prefer to take revenue away from MicroSloth and put it into FreeBSD-related products instead. Now, if I look on the market, something like MS Office goes for about $400 (last I checked was over a year ago, might be cheaper?), and that doesn't even cover the operating system, which is another $100 over top of that. (again, these are ficticious prices) Now, since I'd rather run/maintain a serious of FreeBSD boxes over top of MicroSloth, I go to my boss (again, ficticious, since I don't work for anyone) and suggest going out and grabbing a FreeBSD CD ($39.95US) and grabbing StarOffice (free, based on fact that I'm *only* evaluating it) to evaluate that solution vs MicroSloth. After several minutes, I finally convince him to get off the floor from laughing so hard :) Most ppl in business take a $500 package more seriously then a cheaper one, especially since it says 'MicroSloth' on the box. Change the scenario slightly. I go to boss and explain to him the benefits of working in a Unix environment, and convince him to evaluate a commercial FreeBSD CD that has a 'brain-dead' installation procedure (GUI, not curses based) that costs $100, but gives him benefits over and above NT (what is the cost for NT nowadays?) and uses *less* hardware resources to run. Add to that the availability of a 'packages' CD for $400 that includes soooo much more then just MS Office (StarOffice, Netscape, ) and that still requires less resources then NT once everything is installed. He's still wary, but at least he's not ripping a gut laughing on the floor this time...now he's taking me a bit more seriously. Basically, the idea is to offer *more* then MicroSloth for the same or less cost. We've already got *more* of an operating system, its the 'office' or 'support' utilities for 'joe blow public' that are seriously lacking... Linux is tapping that market, since they have the userbase to do it...we need to go to ppl like StarDivision and convince them to port to us as well, and the only way of doing that is showing a profitable need for them to do so... Which was the whole idea behind the 'commercial CD package(s)'. For you and me, CVSup and ports covers pretty much everything we need...for the IS manager, they want binaries that don't need to be tweaked to get to run...they want it to run out of the box. > First, you're killing your argument because, on one level, we;re > talking about commercial use and, the traditional use of distros is a > Free License which would mean that the vendors only get a partial > stipend for their packages. (i.e., if you loaned the Star CD to me, I > wouldn't pay the license). I could loan you my Star CD, or my FreeBSD Commercial CD...if I understand what you are saying, make it a 2 CD package...FreeBSD on one (Free License) and Commercial Software on other (Licensed Products) > Second, I think the vendors would want more control over the sales and > packaging. It would need be separate. And what control does StarDivision have over distributing StarOffice via ports? > ApplixWare arrived with the ApplixWare CD and a RHLinux CD. So it was > the opposite. The commercial product arrived with the distribution. > Sorta like, buy the product and get the OS for free. And it's > guarenteed to run with the OS. > > My idea is closer to this. You're not wrong to want free (cost free) > distribution, but I think we need to bear some cost for applications. I > don't think we need to pay MORE for Unix Licenses as we traditionally > have in the past, but i don't need to pay less. If Office is 189.00 for > NT/95, I'd pay 189 for *BSD. I think I should get the optimum *BSD > distribution with it but, in the end, it will arrive in a Microsoft box, > not a WC box. Actually, I think I came across wrong...I was not looking for a free/cost free distribution...quite simply, if we (FreeBSD, Inc) could come up with an equivalent to RHLinux/ApplixWare, that was reasonably prices, and that gave me something I could go to a friends computer, install it over top of his NT/95 while giving him/her as little grief as possible, I'd be willing to actually buy copies. If you can get FreeBSD/Unix installed on 'computer illiterate ppls' computers as easily as MicroSloth, then you've taken one *major* step towards market acceptance...you've reduced the "fear" level. > This takes us back to the stability issue, again. If our releases are > too close and too different, my Office Suite might not run on this > version of my OS and I'll have to upgrade/reinst the OS. ApplixWare > gave me that -- if you're not using RH release 4.01, then use the disc > to upgrade. I wasn't using RH and I reserved a disc for the > implementation, but I'd have been pissed if I have RH Release 3.0 and > had to risk a substantial patch or upgrade to run a package I just paid > 179 dollars for.... How many MicroSloth users would ever think to upgrade their computers? I'm not looking at ppl like you and me that upgrade their systems weekly/daily...I'm looking at ppl like a friend of mine that uses MicroSloth in day-to-day business and hasn't upgraded since she first installed Win 3.11 *shrug* Again, mimick MicroSloth to a certain extent. Most users won't upgrade on minor releases, its just too much hassle. For most, an OS upgrade will be performed by their Systems department, and most of those tend to evaluate new software before unleashing it onto the users (or else risk support hell) ... From what I've seen over the past couple of years with FreeBSD, -current is totally unstable (one week could see major changes in the various APIs), but -release(s) tend to be stable, with minor changes between minor releases...but nothing major changed in libraries or whatnot that would cause a binary to fail from, say, 2.2.0 to 2.2.1 to 2.2.2 When a new -release is made, update the operating system, and update the commercial packages as appropriate, and offer an upgrade path (send us in the UPC code from your old version + $39.95 and get the newest stable version)...encourage ppl to stay as current as stability allows. Bear in mind that I'm merely throwing out suggestions/ideas on what I think needs to be done to dam up the flow of ppl using MicroSloth products and to encourage development of more products *like* StarOffice for Unix (and, in particular, FreeBSD)...its going ot take a helluva lot more ppl and interest to change the ideas into solutions, which was why I started this thread in the first place :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:28:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00101 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29976 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00819; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970419123813.18810@panix.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:38:13 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 07:20:36AM -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the spraypainting incidents got out of hand. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:29:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00375 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00370 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13761; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > NT is nice.... it has some bullet proof features.... but NOW I can't get > > at the machine. Another Mac, a computer with training wheels that you can't take off. > Yes, however, our problem is that we don't have BOTH and we really > should. I mean, imagine it - all the fancy setup and configuration > tools (and SDKs and style guides and ...) of Win95 and the > underpinnings of UNIX for those who wanted it underneath. By `fancy setup and configuration tools' I sure hope you don't mean NT's install that blew up on us probing an Adaptec 1542. We tried to let it do it on its own twice and both times it locked up right there. To be fair, the screen did warn that SCSI hardware might be too complicated for it to figure out. > That would truly be the best of both worlds, and the only thing I've > seen which actually comes remotely close is OS/2. It actually has a > decent network suite (very Berkeley-ish and probably ported from it) > and one of the best X servers for a non-UNIX platform I've ever used. > Of course, we all know what's happening to OS/2.. :-) Yeah, in the retail market IBM couldn't sell $10 bills for $5 each. :( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:30:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00438 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00400 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA21471; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:28:10 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:28:10 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, Joel Ray Holveck Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A66E4.769CE59D@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > Well, > > I did. I thought I understood their Linux policy as Beta versions for > non-commercial use were free. Without documentation and downloadable. > (maybe this was just English docs due to translation problems). > > I don't think this was the point originally. I thought Marc wanted a > BSD clean port releasable on a distribution. I didn't see any > restrictions from re-Sales or re-Release by private parties. > > I'm unaware how far Linux ELF apps are from BSD compliant. I don't know > that Star Office is ELF.... > > I guess my question is, are we asking for something that already exists > fpor BSD on some level? First, from what I read, the StarOffice distribution is free for non-commercial use, Beta and when Release comes out... Second, as Jordan had pointed out at one point, the Linux port is runnable under FreeBSD emulation right now, which is a good start. IMHO, if we could somehow show StarDivision (and, subsequently, other commercial developers) the value of a FreeBSD port through increased usage *under* FreeBSD, then we'd start to see as many commercial ports for FreeBSD as there are for, let's say...Linux? Linux has a reasonably known track record...we don't have much of one, at least as far as commercial products are concerned... ...I *believe*, from what I've been reading in the lists, that Jordan et al are currently working on various things to change that, but that is my personal interpretation on what I've read, so this could be incorrect... > > -Mike > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > Has anyone ever approached Star about a free license to put in the > > > distros? or a hard port to *BSD on Intel platforms. At least that you > > > know??? > > > > What do you mean, exactly? How would this be different than their > > current terms? Maybe you should go read the StarOffice release notes > > and then come back. :-) > > > > Jordan > Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:31:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00570 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00559 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA21526; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:30:31 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:30:31 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, Joel Ray Holveck Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A6799.44830FC9@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > The other issue here is the complicating factor. The reason I don't use > Star is the requirement for Motif at some level. Motif ain't free > neither, last time I checked......Or, does it just need some Libs that > are freely available....? Statically compiled...unless its just that I have lesstif installed that its working, but I believe I read that StarOffice for Linux is compiled statically so that the requirement for Motif libraries no longer exists... Motif libraries...another product for a commercial distribution CD? :) > I am not motivated for Star, per se, I like Applix and I think RedHat My motivation towards Star is that its probably about the best software that I've seen so far, for Unix, that compares with things like MS Office...again, if we could motivate developers, we might some day even see competition for Star on the Unix/FreeBSD platform *shrug* Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:35:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00864 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00859 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA21539; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:35:11 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:35:11 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704191801.OAA20718@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > >> How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > >> take the spotlight? > > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think > >its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played > >with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... > > What about NetBSD? I thought it was around before Linux. I don't know...as I said, its the first one that I knew about, and, to be quite honest...I can't recall *where* I heard about it from... Oh ya, now I remember. I used to run Interactive Unix, SVR3.2 as a dialup, free, public access Unix box...one of my users was into Linux and convinced me to switch up (Linux, even in those days (<1.0) was miles better then SVR3.2 *grin*) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:40:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01162 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01150 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paul@localhost) by originat.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id TAA01223; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:44:08 +0100 (BST) To: mike allison Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Joel Ray Holveck , jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <87iv1isxpd.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> <335A6A8D.11FDA5F1@konnections.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 19 Apr 1997 19:44:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: mike allison's message of Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:12:13 -0700 Message-ID: <87ohbaont3.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Lines: 49 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison writes: > Paul: > > I wrote and remember that NET/2 BSD was attached by USL/NOVELL at this > very time when they sued BSDI. I think this REALLY prompted the Linux > movement because NET/2 had been released for a short period and there > was a taste for free unix. Torvalds fed this market with his idea for a > free independent Unix (and some help with his homework, no doubt). > > But I think BSD COULDN'T take off, not Didn't... That's certainly a significant factor but I don't think it's as critical as it appeared. No-one in the BSD community really believed BSD was going to be killed by the court case and FreeBSD and NetBSD both had well established camps before the lawsuit hit us. It held up a release for some 6 months since we had to throw away the 1.x lineage and do a 2.0 from scratch from 4.4lite but in the meantime there was a growing following of FreeBSD based on the 1.x lineage which we were still hacking on right up to the switch to 4.4. I think where the court case did make a difference is that Linus and the Linux crowd made a big deal about the fact that BSD was not really "free" because of encumbered code and a lot of people who just wanted to try an i386 unix for the first time weren't aware of what was really going on and opted for Linux because of all the hype they were throwing out. I think the main reason that Linux is now so huge is because it caught on amongst DOS users who wanted to try unix and the BSD* crowd never really made any effort to promote BSD in the DOS community because frankly the BSD community was never interested in winning them over. There were a lot of disgruntled Windows users who had advanced to the point of being hackers and wanted something that worked better and Linux filled that vacuum. If Microsoft had got NT out sooner that might not have happened and if BSD users had made the effort we could probably have won them over to BSD but a lot of what was said at the time was true, BSD was a bit of a privileged club of unix wizards and Linus offered a much more appealing community to people who didn't really understand unix but wanted to see what it was all about. I remember the early days of 386BSD and Free|NetBSD and we were more intersted in talking about new VM systems than teaching unix newbies why `dir` didn't work. -- Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. Internet: paul@originat.demon.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (UK Mobile) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:44:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01382 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01377 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16109; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:43:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A70A1.6C9890B9@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:38:09 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: Joel Ray Holveck , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > Actually, I think I came across wrong...I was not looking for a > free/cost free distribution...quite simply, Okay, I misunderstood, I'll step down from this track.... > > How many MicroSloth users would ever think to upgrade their > computers? I'm not looking at ppl like you and me that upgrade their > systems weekly/daily...I'm looking at ppl like a friend of mine that uses > MicroSloth in day-to-day business and hasn't upgraded since she first > installed Win 3.11 *shrug* Here, I think you're missing where I'm going. I'm not concerned from the standpoint of upgrades or users, I'm concerned from the PERSPECTIVE of the commercial vendors. They have to know that Certified Releases (Not Current) will be stable for a period and that they will get some help stepping up to new releases so their software/release works when the new OS hits the street. I'm not saying this isn't true today, I'm saying I doubt a vendor believes it to be true... > Again, mimick MicroSloth to a certain extent. Most users won't > upgrade on minor releases, its just too much hassle. For most, an OS > upgrade will be performed by their Systems department, and most of those > tend to evaluate new software before unleashing it onto the users (or > else risk support hell) ... > > When a new -release is made, update the operating system, and > update the commercial packages as appropriate, and offer an upgrade path > (send us in the UPC code from your old version + $39.95 and get the newest > stable version)...encourage ppl to stay as current as stability allows. Again, remember what I said about FBSDI or someone PRoviding Support... in and above what's provided now to support OS releases... .its going ot take a helluva lot > more ppl and interest to change the ideas into solutions, which was why > I started this thread in the first place :) > > Marc G. Fournier Your KNOW I agree totally with this. We need these apps for all the reasons you cited other wise, these OS will continue to be viewed as programmer `Toys' regardless of sophistication. That might be a bit harsh and simplistic for those in the know, but for Common Man (tm) these are the realities. I've been working with Unix for 11 years now and i still run into people who neither know, nor care what it is and how powerful it is. Mostly because they think King William is the ULTIMATE authority on computers, as if he'd invented the F*cking things. -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:44:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01409 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01396 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id NAA18657; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:44:46 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704191844.NAA18657@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <19970419123813.18810@panix.com> from "Larry S. Marso" at "Apr 19, 97 12:38:13 pm" To: lsmarso@panix.com (Larry S. Marso) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:44:45 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. > I remember the "black plastic" that was put over the "additional inscriptions". I would have greatly enjoyed getting closer to the "rocks", but even the distance that I viewed them from, they were unbelievably impressive. (I was there in '83.) John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:45:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01440 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01425 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA20869; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:44:22 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:44:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199704191844.OAA20869@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scrappy@hub.org CC: mallison@konnections.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from The Hermit Hacker on Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:28:10 -0300 (ADT)) Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Second, as Jordan had pointed out at one point, the Linux port is >runnable under FreeBSD emulation right now, which is a good start. IMHO, >if we could somehow show StarDivision (and, subsequently, other commercial >developers) the value of a FreeBSD port through increased usage *under* >FreeBSD, then we'd start to see as many commercial ports for FreeBSD as >there are for, let's say...Linux? Linux has a reasonably known track >record...we don't have much of one, at least as far as commercial products >are concerned... Why is a BSD-specific port so important? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:47:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01530 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01524 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16132; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:46:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A715E.23389524@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:41:18 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, Joel Ray Holveck Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > ...I *believe*, from what I've been reading in the lists, that > Jordan et al are currently working on various things to change that, but > that is my personal interpretation on what I've read, so this could be > incorrect... > Marc G. Fournier Well, And that's one reason why we're writing Free Systems Journal, to help gain some exposure and legitimacy and help people understand that there is not only an underlying similarity and consistency between the systems, but that there are a lot more than just Intel Boxen running these systems. The whole community suffers from being underestimated and misunderstood... (as do our posts....) -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:52:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01807 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01801 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16179; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:51:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7263.1EE50F9E@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:45:39 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, Joel Ray Holveck Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And my motivation for Applix is that is IS a commercial UNIX product. In use on Sun within the Defense Department and many other US Agencies. And now available for Linux. Totally (it's my lie, let me tell it) MS OFFICE (Awfice) compatible, with a file amnager and many other utilities along with a couple hundred page manual. ApplixWare is a threat to MS Awfice (Orifice). I don't think Star is, but it has potential. My selling point with Gov't agencies is that they can still use Applix.... or use Applix on both Sun and PC..... (along with X window and Open Look...) -Mike The Hermit Hacker wrote: > My motivation towards Star is that its probably about the best > software that I've seen so far, for Unix, that compares with things like > MS Office...again, if we could motivate developers, we might some day even > see competition for Star on the Unix/FreeBSD platform *shrug* > > Marc G. Fournier > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:56:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02322 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02313 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16235; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:55:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7352.3B7C4556@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:49:38 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards CC: The Hermit Hacker , Joel Ray Holveck , jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <87iv1isxpd.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> <335A6A8D.11FDA5F1@konnections.com> <87ohbaont3.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards wrote: > > I think the main reason that Linux is now so huge is because it > caught on amongst DOS users who wanted to try unix and the BSD* crowd > never really made any effort to promote BSD in the DOS community > because frankly the BSD community was never interested in winning them > over. There were a lot of disgruntled Windows users who had advanced > to the point of being hackers and wanted something that worked better > and Linux filled that vacuum. If Microsoft had got NT out sooner that > might not have happened and if BSD users had made the effort we could > probably have won them over to BSD but a lot of what was said at the > time was true, BSD was a bit of a privileged club of unix wizards and > Linus offered a much more appealing community to people who didn't > really understand unix but wanted to see what it was all about. > > I remember the early days of 386BSD and Free|NetBSD and we were more > intersted in talking about new VM systems than teaching unix newbies > why `dir` didn't work. > > -- > Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. I wanted to say something about BSD elitism, but I shied away. Actually, remember that the GNU project wouldn't even talk about PC prots because they we're so focused on Minicomputer markets or whatever we want to call the DECs and SUNs of the late 80's/early 90's... I agree with the emotions of your assessments...(that sounds like something SPOCK would say...) -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:57:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02371 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02362; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03503; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:04:05 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:04:05 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704191615.LAA27445@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > The thing I LOVE about England is that I NEVER have to drive. No > > Parking, finding the car, negotiating traffic, getting uptight....No, > > No, no.... > > > I disagree with this original point. It's just wrong, it takes years to find a parking space anywhere in England, unless of course you don't mind having your car clamped. > Well, I lived in a small town -- even there was some mass transit, > but not enough to be convienient. I had very very seldom gone to > London or any other big city -- I way VERY happy where I was. Most > of my friends there did drive cars to/from work, the store, etc. > > With my temperment, I think being in a big city is like being in > a zoo -- nice place to visit (and very interesting), but sure wouldn't > want to live there. Unless of course, like me you find yourself having to buy cigarettes, cat food and milk at 3am. Then living in a city can come in handy. Anyway, I'd rather be in the zoo, than basically on the moon. Oh, there's no computer shops if you live, for example, in Scotland. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:59:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02506 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02495 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16261; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:57:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A73EF.7CEC3527@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:52:15 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704191844.OAA20869@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > Why is a BSD-specific port so important? > Because there are some fundamental differences with what will run on BSD and what will run on Linux when the dust settles. Applixware on Linux expects certain libraries which only some distributions or configurations might have. Thus ApplixWare, though theoretically designed for Linux, might only run on SOME linux.... That's the way I see it... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 11:59:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02557 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02547 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA21668; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:59:12 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:59:12 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: Joel Ray Holveck , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A70A1.6C9890B9@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > > How many MicroSloth users would ever think to upgrade their > > computers? I'm not looking at ppl like you and me that upgrade their > > systems weekly/daily...I'm looking at ppl like a friend of mine that uses > > MicroSloth in day-to-day business and hasn't upgraded since she first > > installed Win 3.11 *shrug* > > > Here, I think you're missing where I'm going. I'm not concerned from > the standpoint of upgrades or users, I'm concerned from the PERSPECTIVE > of the commercial vendors. They have to know that Certified Releases > (Not Current) will be stable for a period and that they will get some > help stepping up to new releases so their software/release works when > the new OS hits the street. > > I'm not saying this isn't true today, I'm saying I doubt a vendor > believes it to be true... Understood, and I think that it is something that is addressable... again (Jordan/core, correct me if I'm wrong here) I believe that minor releases (by release, it automatically excludes -current development trees) are 'stable' as far as binary releases are concerned. So, a Developer would do a binary release for 2.2.0 when it came out, and would be able to be confident that that binary would be *stable* for any 2.2.x releases subsequently made. It wouldn't be until 2.x.0 came out (or, 3.0 in our current case) that a recompile might/would be required... And, even then, I think a 'commercial CD release' would have to follow an 'OS CD release' by several weeks (months) while all the binaries being distributed were fully tested at that release level, and approved by the individual vendors... > That might be a bit harsh and simplistic for those in the know, but for > Common Man (tm) these are the realities. I've been working with Unix > for 11 years now and i still run into people who neither know, nor care > what it is and how powerful it is. Mostly because they think King > William is the ULTIMATE authority on computers, as if he'd invented the > F*cking things. Or those that fear it? I have a friend of mine working as a Systms Administrator for a relatively small company here in Nova Scotia... she's pretty much been a part of the Novell/MicroSloth world for so long that she can still be considered a toddler around Unix...so when she has problems, I pop into her work and help her out, show her around the different utilities (ie. she didn't know how to use find) and now she's actually starting to enjoy working in it...having a bit more confidence in what she's doing. For *alot* of ppl out there, end-users in general, Unix represents a non-GUI environment for them...effectively (to them)...DOS, no point and click. And, quite frankly, I'd even be hesitant putting most of them in my X-Windows environment, since its more a X'terminal' environment then it is a simple, 'point-and-click' environment... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:04:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02869 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02850 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16336; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:03:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7559.24A053D1@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:58:17 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Eric Fagan CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:02:06 BST." <199704191809.LAA22926@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > I'd like to point out that OS/2's early problems stemmed from it being a > uSoft product originally. But when Windows 3.0 took off (and 3.0.1 because > actually usable by people), uSoft decided they did not want to deal with > OS/2 anymore, and left it on IBM's doorstep. Which is kinda a pity -- the > 286-centric OS/2 sucked dead blue donkeys%, but given that it came from > uSoft, I'm not surprised. IBM did a good job of improving it, I always > thought, a couple of years later. > > Sean. > ----- > % A hapence if you can identify th esource of that phrase. All the 286 products we're left for dead. Xenix/AT was one of the best Unix' ever made. But..... As for %, I dunno, we had Donkey Dicks in the Corps, the adapter that we put in jerry cans to fill the tanks on the jeeps.... I liked Hermit Hackers `Non-hacker' reference, as that means a person who can't do something in the Corps. Thus a Non-Hacker is someone who can't use Unix...... Of course, the % sign is also a graphic icon of the male sex organ of the donkey... From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03265 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03253 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA21758; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:09:29 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:09:29 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A73EF.7CEC3527@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > > > Why is a BSD-specific port so important? > > > > > Because there are some fundamental differences with what will run on BSD > and what will run on Linux when the dust settles. > > Applixware on Linux expects certain libraries which only some > distributions or configurations might have. Thus ApplixWare, though > theoretically designed for Linux, might only run on SOME linux.... > > That's the way I see it... Agreed...the other aspect is that if a product is compiled/ported to BSD, it will make use of certain optimizations in BSDs libraries. I read an article awhile back in Open Systems(tm) that talked about Windows emulators and the major problems with them, even on Intel platforms... mainly, the operating system has to 'decode' each line of the program and translate it to an equivalent call in the 'native operating system', which slows down how the program runs.... So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:15:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03806 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03801 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16456; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:14:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A77D8.2B2A8D94@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:08:56 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: Joel Ray Holveck , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > And, even then, I think a 'commercial CD release' would have to > follow an 'OS CD release' by several weeks (months) while all the binaries > being distributed were fully tested at that release level, and approved by > the individual vendors... > Marc G. Fournier That's unrealistic for developers. Look at the MS universe. They work along with major package developers so that they all hit the street together. You need Windows 99 becasue Lutus 1 - 2 - 3 - 99 requires it. And you need Lutus 99 because Lutus 98 won't run well on Win 99... etc. The Comm Dis must hit the street with the OS Dist. You might say that this will slow distribution of the OS release artificially and my response is: what is the real agenda? We have Free Unix for ourselves. We can't go on until everyone else wants it. Somewhere in here, the times become pregnant for an evangelistic move to include non-hackers. Jordan might say that isn't until at least 3.5, you and I might say 2.3.... That's an institutional problem for the FBSDI teams. Eventually, though you must step away from what's fun and useful to market expectations. Caldera and RedHat will eventually control Linux because they will cater to the Vendors and still provide user products. One free, one commercial paid license. Slackware will continue in the hacker realm but reduced. *BSDs are in the best position because they are controlled and stable. But somewhere a decision point will arrive when FBSDI will have to decide who the real customer is.... Of course FreeBSD will be a MS trademark by then.... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:21:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04139 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04131 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16533; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A792A.2D35F55@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:14:34 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Agreed...the other aspect is that if a product is compiled/ported > to BSD, it will make use of certain optimizations in BSDs libraries. > > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD > > Marc G. Fournier Also, In a perfect virtual Unix world (where the name Gates doesn't appear in teh Phone book), a FreeBSD port could easily become a *BSD port meaning that it will run on over 14 architectures in a short period of time.... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:22:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04201 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04196 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16560; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7969.2498EBBA@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:15:37 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Larry S. Marso" CC: "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net> <19970419123813.18810@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Larry S. Marso wrote: > > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. Didn't the vatican take a lot of head over the spray painting.... : -} -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:30:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04589 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04583; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16675; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:29:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7B69.6560BC31@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:24:09 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Roome CC: dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen Roome wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > > > The thing I LOVE about England is that I NEVER have to drive. No > > > Parking, finding the car, negotiating traffic, getting uptight....No, > > > No, no.... > > > > > > > I disagree with this original point. It's just wrong, it takes years to > find a parking space anywhere in England, unless of course you don't mind > having your car clamped. Stephen: That was my point and you misread, I said I DON'T have to drive, thus I needn't look for parking, etc.... I don't want to park in england or the US. I CERTAINLY don't want to drive in ENGLAND. > > > Well, I lived in a small town -- even there was some mass transit, > > but not enough to be convienient. I had very very seldom gone to > > London or any other big city -- I way VERY happy where I was. Most > > of my friends there did drive cars to/from work, the store, etc. > > > > With my temperment, I think being in a big city is like being in > > a zoo -- nice place to visit (and very interesting), but sure wouldn't > > want to live there. > > Unless of course, like me you find yourself having to buy cigarettes, cat > food and milk at 3am. I can live without milk for a couple of hours if it means not living in America. I like London, but I'd rather live in Halifax. >Then living in a city can come in handy. > Anyway, I'd rather be in the zoo, than basically on the moon. > > Oh, there's no computer shops if you live, for example, in Scotland. -- > Steve Roome Christ, now we're gonna piss the Scots off. There's no computer shops in UTAH either..... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:34:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04692 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04679 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA14010; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:33:42 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: mike allison cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <335A3E73.7FF897E8@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > How come we only get to do it once a month? > > Can't we simulate a full moon and do it, oh say, nightly????? Only if someone were to install kiosks on all the pillars. Everyone knows that all usefull code is written between 2200 and 0500 local time. Nothing would ever get done if everyone was out every night. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:35:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04802 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04797; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16747; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:34:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7C7E.72128761@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:28:46 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Roome , dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <335A7B69.6560BC31@konnections.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How can Stonehenge, England and parking be considered `Off Topic' for FreeBSD? Isn't BSD Rock solid Like Stonehenge and Gibraltar? (Both part of England) Isn't England the home of the Magna Carta, heartstone of all free peoples everywhere (and hense free systems)? Do any of us like to park? (Unless there's some offer of R rated sexual activity)??? -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:37:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04914 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04907 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16775; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:36:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A7D0B.5C7C61C6@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:31:07 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jack CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Isn't this what we invented laptops and networks for? If we can't do Real World things (like attend pagan rituals and participate in questionable activities), what good is all this stuff.... The REAL question is: Will the kiosks be wired for 120 or 220 and 50 or 60 Hz? -Mike jack wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > > > How come we only get to do it once a month? > > > > Can't we simulate a full moon and do it, oh say, nightly????? > > Only if someone were to install kiosks on all the pillars. Everyone knows > that all usefull code is written between 2200 and 0500 local time. > Nothing would ever get done if everyone was out every night. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:37:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04926 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04908 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA04062; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:44:26 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:44:26 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: The Hermit Hacker cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > > > together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > > > naked let 'em. > > > > That actually sounds like a lot of fun - anyone up for this during the > > next solstice? Flights to Heathrow in the off-season are pretty > > cheap. :-) > > Actually, Stonehenge is closed and guarded during the solstice(s) :( But there's a good army base with some tanks nearby, surely someone can get us a tank or two. > > I watch much to much TLC...they did this series on Stonehenge, and > I guess the ravages of time (and 1000's of ppl) are starting to take their > toll :( > > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:47:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05370 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05362; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA04196; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:54:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:54:46 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: mike allison cc: dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <335A7C7E.72128761@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > How can Stonehenge, England and parking be considered `Off Topic' for > FreeBSD? > > Isn't BSD Rock solid Like Stonehenge and Gibraltar? (Both part of > England) Isn't England the home of the Magna Carta, heartstone of all > free peoples everywhere (and hense free systems)? Do any of us like to > park? (Unless there's some offer of R rated sexual activity)??? Are we talking parking drives now, or parking cars in drives ? Obviously the parking discussion is fine, although I'm not sure newer driveways are considered parking space and newer drives don't really need to be parked do they ? Stonehenge is kind of modular isn't it, wouldn't that be more of a HURD discussion? > > -Mike > Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 12:53:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05641 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05635; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA16959; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:52:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A80B9.1429AF0C@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:46:49 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Roome CC: dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stonehenge is very CIRCULAR......like a disc....like Unix.... like the internet.... like life itself..... -Mike Stephen Roome wrote: > Stonehenge is kind of modular isn't it, wouldn't that be more of a HURD > discussion? > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:21:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07369 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07361 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA29463 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:21:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18149; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:13:14 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970419221314.BY01182@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:13:14 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel Ray Holveck on Apr 19, 1997 13:14:47 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > take the spotlight? If you ask me: the same thing that made 386BSD slip out of Bill Jolitz's fingers. By the time this happened (1992/1993), the discrepancy between an evolving and getting cheaper hardware basis, and the typical CP/M clone running on most of these machines, with all its deficiencies, generated a huge demand for a cheap (DOS was basically for free on most of these machines, since you've got it when buying the box), yet powerful operating system. Remember, the 386 was widely available, and it's probably the first thing out of the house of Intel that deserves the term `processor'. When i first read my 386 reference book (coming from both, a Z80 and a PDP-11 background), i said to myself: ``Gee, it's getting a real CPU now you can do something with.'' The memory and disk prices fell into a range where it was feasible to have a 4 MB machine at home, with a 200 MB disk that was useful to keep the source of your operating system around, too. As for the relative success of Linux over *BSD later, i think two factors are involved: the uncertainty caused by AT&T suing BSDi, as well as Bill Jolitz's dismissal as the leading head of 386BSD (with its well-known consequences). It looks to me as if Bill never ever intended such a degree of success as a production-level operating system, but he was rather headed for a small, understandable platform for operating system teaching and experiments. He simply couldn't make it up with handling the massive feedback from all over the world, and if you look today how many co-operating people it requires who devote their time into these systems, you realize that it's probably too heavy for a single person. Bill however is known as somebody who is not a very good team player (at least that's the picture i've got in mind). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:21:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07388 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07368 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA29468 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:21:46 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18161; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:16:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970419221617.NX43957@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:16:17 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <199704191714.NAA20555@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Apr 19, 1997 14:34:00 -0300 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > > take the spotlight? > > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. The first, yes, but only by a few months. And it hasn't been known to more than maybe a hundred people by this time. When 386BSD 0.0 appeared, Linux was at 0.17 or 0.23 or such (i don't remember the exact version), and still very incomplete. 386BSD had much more press in advance, Bill Jolitz's series has been printed for about 12 or 15 months already before version 0.0 was finally available. (There was even a German translation here, with an offset of ~ 9 months.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:24:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07597 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07579 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA17330; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:23:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335A8814.7ACF8A88@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:18:12 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Larry S. Marso" , "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704191220.HAA08774@dyson.iquest.net> <19970419123813.18810@panix.com> <335A7969.2498EBBA@konnections.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison wrote: > > Larry S. Marso wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. > > Didn't the vatican take a lot of head over the spray painting.... : -} > > -Mike Sorry, I meant `HEAT' Freudian slip, no doubt.... From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:30:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07989 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.ucdavis.edu [128.120.175.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07984 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dav1-12.calweb.com [207.211.82.12]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07336; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:40:17 GMT Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id UAA00800; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:30:44 GMT Message-ID: <19970419133044.39757@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:30:44 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Nate Williams Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704182210.PAA03046@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199704191447.IAA28655@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704191447.IAA28655@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 08:47:27AM -0600 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 08:47:27AM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > subscribe to the thing. Anyone named Kazinski need not apply. > > Dang, I guess that means I'll have to tell uncle Ted what you've > been saying about him. I suspect he'll want me to send you that > 'present' I've been storing for him these last few years. > > Nate > ps. In case you didn't know, until recently I lived about 30 miles from > our beloved friend. But, he moved closer to the Bay Area recently. :) Yea, but I can boast that he used my school library for his "research". 8-) -- David (obrien@nuxi.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:41:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08964 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08959 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA05356; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:41:28 -0700 (PDT) To: jack cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:29:23 EDT." Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:41:27 -0700 Message-ID: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > By `fancy setup and configuration tools' I sure hope you don't mean NT's > install that blew up on us probing an Adaptec 1542. We tried to let it No, of course not. That would be deliberate stupidity and I'm not talking about anything like that. Also, the UNIX traditionalists should please bear in mind that such an interface would NOT BE DESIGNED FOR THEM. The tragedy of UNIX is that the propeller-heads typically design the interfaces according to _their_ specifications and desires, and every time you show them a Windows or Mac desktop they make all sorts of appropriate vomiting noises and claim that they'd take death by violent sodomy over such a system, strongly opposing any and all such initiatives with every atom of their bodies. It all just totally misses the point, which is that *we're not talking about their needs* when we bring up the idea of an all-singing, all-dancing GUI-based administration system, nor is such a system meant to REPLACE anything about the current CLI based approach. It's the #1 straw-man argument every time this comes up that "anyone wishing to dumb-down UNIX and replace its hallowed, cherished interfaces with a GUI should be shot" despite the fact that the proponents have never even remotely suggest *replacing* anything, and such a system would be a wholly optional add-on. However, no matter how clear the advocates may make this, it just doesn't matter - mention the very concept and it's Fear And Loathing time, rumors of the imminent arrival of apocalyptic horsemen and the minions of Gates being fiercely debated in every mailing list. SIGH! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:57:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09870 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09858 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA05478; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: mike allison , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:09:29 -0300." Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:57:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5476.861483422@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD You may well be surprised, my friend. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 13:58:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09964 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09949 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA05489; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:58:05 -0700 (PDT) To: "Larry S. Marso" cc: "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:38:13 EDT." <19970419123813.18810@panix.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:58:04 -0700 Message-ID: <5487.861483484@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. Well, FWIW, I was: a) Not serious. b) Aware of this and would still actually like to be within *sight* of stonehenge on a solstice - I don't have to go climb on the bloody thing to be happy with the view of a sunrise over it. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 14:10:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11058 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11036 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA22304; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:08:57 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:08:57 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: mike allison , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <5476.861483422@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD > > You may well be surprised, my friend. ;-) FreeBSD: A faster Linux then Linux Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 16:07:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21279 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21270 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paul@localhost) by originat.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id AAA01859; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:10:28 +0100 (BST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Larry S. Marso" , "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <5487.861483484@time.cdrom.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 20 Apr 1997 00:10:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:58:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87n2quobh8.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. > > Well, FWIW, I was: > > a) Not serious. > > b) Aware of this and would still actually like to be within *sight* > of stonehenge on a solstice - I don't have to go climb on the bloody > thing to be happy with the view of a sunrise over it. :-) Unfortunately things are a lot worse than that over here these days. I doubt very much you can get in sight of Salisbury plain let alone Stonehenge around Soltice time because the police won't let you near the place at that time of the year because they don't want "travellers" all converging there. -- Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. Internet: paul@originat.demon.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (UK Mobile) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 18:33:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27281 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27276 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA20604; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:32:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AD053.5CEE766@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:26:27 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does this mean that Linux running under a FreeBSD emulation on Linux would be faster than native Linux? -Mike The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > > > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD > > > > You may well be surprised, my friend. ;-) > > FreeBSD: A faster Linux then Linux > > Marc G. Fournier > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:02:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27924 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27917 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA20944; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:00:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AD6EC.7306BE6D@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:54:36 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jack , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan's right. The two things that seem to miss in the night are Popular user interfaces and machine access by people with glasses.... They aren't mutually exclusive, rather complementary. The point was sacrificing one for the other at Microsoft. They took away our low level access and tried to replace it with GUI programs which are still too abstract to allow what you need. If the GUI is in the way, having a program under the GUI isn't going to let you fix it.....Unless it's built more like X or even Win3.x which is merely an app on the OS not the whole OS... NT needs an NTterm where you can attack the machine.... -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > No, of course not. That would be deliberate stupidity and I'm not > talking about anything like that. > > Also, the UNIX traditionalists should please bear in mind that such an > interface would NOT BE DESIGNED FOR THEM. > > The tragedy of UNIX is that the propeller-heads typically design the > interfaces according to _their_ specifications and desires, and every > time you show them a Windows or Mac desktop they make all sorts of > appropriate vomiting noises and claim that they'd take death by > violent sodomy over such a system, strongly opposing any and all such > initiatives with every atom of their bodies. > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:04:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27979 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27973 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA20959; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:01:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AD74A.5D46AF2F@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:56:10 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: "Larry S. Marso" , "John S. Dyson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <5487.861483484@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sure you wouldn't want to dangle your feet off the edge of a monolith while drinking a guiness & watching the sun come up?? -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Unfortunately, the days when you could wander freely around Stonehenge on > > any day (solstice or no solstice) ended some years ago when the > > spraypainting incidents got out of hand. > > Well, FWIW, I was: > > a) Not serious. > > b) Aware of this and would still actually like to be within *sight* > of stonehenge on a solstice - I don't have to go climb on the bloody > thing to be happy with the view of a sunrise over it. :-) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:10:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28204 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-27.netcom.ca [207.181.94.91]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28169 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id XAA01249; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:08:59 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:08:59 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335AD053.5CEE766@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > Does this mean that Linux running under a FreeBSD emulation on Linux > would be faster than native Linux? It was joke...but, hey, if the shoe fits... :) > > -Mike > > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > > > > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD > > > > > > You may well be surprised, my friend. ;-) > > > > FreeBSD: A faster Linux then Linux > > > > Marc G. Fournier > > > Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:14:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28351 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (news@haywire.dialix.com [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28346 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.8.4/8.8.2) id KAA17392 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:14:26 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 20 Apr 1997 02:00:01 GMT From: "crlawson" Message-ID: <01bc4d2e$b355a4a0$25010ccb@default> Organization: - Subject: GET MORE PEOPLE ON YOUR WEBSITE Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, if you would like to advertise your webpage on 100 other webpages then go to the webpage below. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/9802 thank you for your time From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:19:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28518 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28512 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA02344; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:49:22 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200219.LAA02344@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Apr 19, 97 03:23:49 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:49:21 +0930 (CST) Cc: mallison@konnections.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just to step in and make a couple of points here. This whole thread is as boring as all hell, and I wish, if you were going to blow so hard, that you were actually _doing_ something about it. The Hermit Hacker stands accused of saying: > > need to go to ppl like StarDivision and convince them to port to us as well, > and the only way of doing that is showing a profitable need for them to do > so... No, we do _not_. We go to people like StarDivision and we say (I have said), hey wow, your neat software works really well on FreeBSD too. We'd like to work with you to keep it that way. Could you put a brief mention of this in your promo materials? Telling an ISV that you demand a port, for no market, is going to get you ridicule and/or abuse, depending on the ISV and the circumstances. > And what control does StarDivision have over distributing StarOffice > via ports? StarDivision have absolute control; SO is their product. They just happen to encourage its widespread distribution with _very_ liberal terms, a fact that I greatly appreciated. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:23:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28647 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28642 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA02367; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:53:02 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200223.LAA02367@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Apr 19, 97 03:30:31 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:53:02 +0930 (CST) Cc: mallison@konnections.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker stands accused of saying: > > > The other issue here is the complicating factor. The reason I don't use > > Star is the requirement for Motif at some level. Motif ain't free > > neither, last time I checked......Or, does it just need some Libs that > > are freely available....? > > Statically compiled...unless its just that I have lesstif installed > that its working, but I believe I read that StarOffice for Linux is compiled > statically so that the requirement for Motif libraries no longer exists... StarOffice requires nothing that is not included either in its own distribution, or in the linux_lib port. How about taking a _few_seconds_ to check the dependencies in the port? Also note that SO is available for Solaris, OS/2 and Win32; if you're looking for a suite for a mixed office, it's not a bad idea. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:31:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28886 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28881 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02391; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:00:50 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200230.MAA02391@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335A73EF.7CEC3527@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 12:52:15 pm" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:00:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > Why is a BSD-specific port so important? > > Because there are some fundamental differences with what will run on BSD > and what will run on Linux when the dust settles. Well, gee and I and all the other people that have worked to get SO happening on FreeBSD are just so so impressed with your confidence in our abiltities to make it work. The Linux ABI emulation has progressed, and the linux_lib port has eveolved specifically to _ensure_ that valuable commercial applications will work. If you think that we are blind to the need for this, then you are more incredibly stupid than I had ever imagined. Please, cut it with the fantasizing in public. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 19:40:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29285 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29279 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02427; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:10:01 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200240.MAA02427@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Apr 19, 97 04:09:29 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:10:00 +0930 (CST) Cc: mallison@konnections.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker stands accused of saying: > > Agreed...the other aspect is that if a product is compiled/ported > to BSD, it will make use of certain optimizations in BSDs libraries. And these optimisations aren't in the Linux libraries? Sure, there are plenty of interesting warts inthe Linux libraries, but the guys working on them are _not_ stupid, and if their library performance stank, they would have fixed it. > I read an article awhile back in Open Systems(tm) that talked > about Windows emulators and the major problems with them, even on > Intel platforms... mainly, the operating system has to 'decode' > each line of the program and translate it to an equivalent call in > the 'native operating system', which slows down how the program > runs.... This is total crap. And to be frank, it bothers me a lot that you are taking your tech information from a rag rather than investigting yourself. The source to a reasonably good ABI emulator is right under your nosel why not have a look at. See if _you_ can find the line-by-line (what's a line?) trnaslator in there. > So, StarOffice for Linux running under Linux would most likely be > 'faster' then being emulated under FreeBSD Not appreciably, no. System calls are slightly slowed by the extra shim layer that performs the translation, but SO doesn't spend much time doing syscalls. Everything else runs _just_as_fast_or_slow_ as it would on a Linux system. > Marc G. Fournier -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 20:06:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29922 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA29915 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA15055; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:05:41 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > By `fancy setup and configuration tools' I sure hope you don't mean NT's > > install that blew up on us probing an Adaptec 1542. We tried to let it > > No, of course not. That would be deliberate stupidity and I'm not > talking about anything like that. NOTHING will put a bad taste in a users mouth any worse than an install that fails, or drags on like a crusade. Next time you feel like wasting a day install NT 4.0 on a P90 with 16 megs of RAM. You can install FreeBSD on a 486-66, compile and install your favorite shell, utils, and a kernel; go to lunch; compile, install and configure INND et al. and have news flowing in both dirrections by the time NT is asking for its IP address. > Also, the UNIX traditionalists should please bear in mind that such an > interface would NOT BE DESIGNED FOR THEM. But if it is not completely bullet proof it won't help the people that *do* need it. When the folks that have 8 megabyte hard drives, 1.something gigabytes of memory, and who's modem speed is 133 Pentium get their hands on this either it has to be able to figure out *everything* or there has to be someone at the other end of a phone that can teach them the difference between the left and the right mouse button. { "Are you left or right handed?" "Right" "Is the mouse in your right hand?" "Yes" "OK, press the button FARTHEST away from your body one time." "Nothing happened" "Do you still have the pointer on the picture?" "Ah, no." ..... } > the #1 straw-man argument every time this comes up that "anyone > wishing to dumb-down UNIX and replace its hallowed, cherished > interfaces with a GUI should be shot" despite the fact that the > proponents have never even remotely suggest *replacing* anything, and > such a system would be a wholly optional add-on. However, no matter > how clear the advocates may make this, it just doesn't matter - > mention the very concept and it's Fear And Loathing time, rumors of > the imminent arrival of apocalyptic horsemen and the minions of Gates > being fiercely debated in every mailing list. I'm not that paranoid of BillyBob, I just hate the thought of using NT's install as a role model. I've been through about 4 release, ?? snap|alpha|beta Freebsd installs, 4 versions of OS/2, DOS from 1.? thru 6.22, Win3.0 and 3.1, Windows95, and NT 4.0. Given a choice I'd rather do any 12 of the others than a single NT install again. In my experience, an NT install has a lot in common with a root canal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 20:55:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01732 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01727 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA22324; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:54:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AF19E.3A4A39D2@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:30 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: The Hermit Hacker , jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200223.LAA02367@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I sense a bit of hostility here. I actually HAVE chacked write-ups reviews and Star's own stuff and there are always veiled references to Motif. I believe at one time Motif was a requirement. If it's not anymore they should drop all references. I had forgotten why I didn't ever try it until somehting on their web site brought up a reference to Motif again and I remembered. I still think everyones focusing on a single noodle and not the whole soup... -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > > > > > The other issue here is the complicating factor. The reason I don't use > > > Star is the requirement for Motif at some level. Motif ain't free > > > neither, last time I checked......Or, does it just need some Libs that > > > are freely available....? > > > > Statically compiled...unless its just that I have lesstif installed > > that its working, but I believe I read that StarOffice for Linux is compiled > > statically so that the requirement for Motif libraries no longer exists... > > StarOffice requires nothing that is not included either in its own > distribution, or in the linux_lib port. How about taking a > _few_seconds_ to check the dependencies in the port? > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 20:58:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02022 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02010 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA22359; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:57:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:52:09 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200230.MAA02391@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gee Mike and YOURE SO GREAT!!!! BSD runs everything on the fucking planet and we can all go to bed thanks to YOU! I don't think so. Linux is becoming MORE divergent every day. If YOU want to be like them go ahead..... I think the question was DO we need a BSD specific port and the answer (SORRY it was just my opinion and I can't speak for the whole world Einstein, was Yeah, today we do...) God I'm humbled ..... If you're so bored Mike, go cure cancer and leave us alone... -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > > Well, gee and I and all the other people that have worked to get SO > happening on FreeBSD are just so so impressed with your confidence in > our abiltities to make it work. > > The Linux ABI emulation has progressed, and the linux_lib port has > eveolved specifically to _ensure_ that valuable commercial > applications will work. If you think that we are blind to the need > for this, then you are more incredibly stupid than I had ever > imagined. > > Please, cut it with the fantasizing in public. > > -- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:26:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03224 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03219 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA14310; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:26:47 -0700 (PDT) To: jack cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:05:41 EDT." Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:26:46 -0700 Message-ID: <14308.861510406@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > NOTHING will put a bad taste in a users mouth any worse than an install > that fails, or drags on like a crusade. Next time you feel like wasting a I hadn't intended on doing an install which did either of those things, so I have to wonder why you even bring it up. :-) > But if it is not completely bullet proof it won't help the people that > *do* need it. When the folks that have 8 megabyte hard drives, > 1.something gigabytes of memory, and who's modem speed is 133 Pentium get 8 megabyte hard drives and 1 gigabyte of memory - you see the industry going in slightly different directions than I do, I can say that much. :-) Seriously, of course the software has to work in order to reach its intended audience but like, well, duh! I'd have thought that was kind of obvious. Again, you seem to have this obsession with the dangers of badly written, dysfunctional code. Is there something you'd like to get off your chest? A guilty conscience from some past sin committed, perhaps? :-) > "OK, press the button FARTHEST away from your body one time." > "Nothing happened" > "Do you still have the pointer on the picture?" > "Ah, no." You write a very scary UI, that's all I can say, my friend. :-) > I'm not that paranoid of BillyBob, I just hate the thought of using NT's > install as a role model. I've been through about 4 release, ?? It's NOT - where did you get that idea? I merely said that their implementation of GUIs to *handle these problems* was the key advantage. It's the idea that counts, not the implementation. The first n implementations of *anyone*'s installation & admin tools generally suck, as things go, but if the authors have the right ideas and are willing to stick with it, something pretty good can be evolved. Windows has done a good job of creating a lot of well-documented APIs and installation helpers, their implementation just needs to advance another couple of generations more. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:29:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03372 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03367 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA22683; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:28:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AF9A9.74E327A5@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:22:50 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200230.MAA02391@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I realise that I'm just STUPID, right Mike, so tell me, Why do I have a BRAND NEW, LATEST RELEASE, $400 (That's US Too) Linux Commercial package on my desk which WARNS in big letters that it may not run on all versions of LINUX because of library incompatibilities? You tell me, smart guy, if there isn't a problem out there REAL or PERCEIVED, that if I bother to port my product to Linux or BSD that I might have a problem with inconsistent libraries and kernels. I might also add, although you're far to smart to have missed it, that Marc was speaking of Star Office as and example only, and said that explicitly. And that my comment, which you must have slept through while discovering cold fusion, was that we needed a way to ensure that Commercial vendors could know that the hooks they relied on were there in all releases or that they were informed of major changes early enough to encorporate them into their production cycle. I'm sorry if you solve all that over tea, the rest of us just weren't informed, unfortunately neither were some vendors.... Humbly yours, -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > The Linux ABI emulation has progressed, and the linux_lib port has > eveolved specifically to _ensure_ that valuable commercial > applications will work. If you think that we are blind to the need > for this, then you are more incredibly stupid than I had ever > imagined. > > Please, cut it with the fantasizing in public. > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:41:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03846 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03841 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA02744; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:11:25 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200441.OAA02744@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 09:52:09 pm" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:11:25 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > Gee Mike and YOURE SO GREAT!!!! BSD runs everything on the fucking > planet and we can all go to bed thanks to YOU! Just about everything, actually, and if it doesn't, and you can help us out, then we'd love to have your help. And try "us", not "me". > Linux is becoming MORE divergent every day. If YOU want to be like them > go ahead..... I can't see where you're coming from here. Would you care to explain a little? > I think the question was DO we need a BSD specific port and the answer > (SORRY it was just my opinion and I can't speak for the whole world > Einstein, was Yeah, today we do...) ... and yet when the issue was raised perhaps a week or so ago, and people that have actually worked with ISV's and with OS vendors dealing with ISV's were sharing their experiences, you were where? After listening to their input, which was calm, reasoned and based in some cases on direct experience with the ISV's in question, you still claim there's a need for a BSD-specific port of an application which is available for Linux? I'm sorry; I can't see how you can take such a line, except in the context of rampant fantasy. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:44:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03950 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03915 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA14359; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:42:49 -0700 (PDT) To: mike allison cc: Michael Smith , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:52:09 PDT." <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:42:48 -0700 Message-ID: <14357.861511368@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, gentlemen, enough. It's time to stop before the irony of a bunch of FreeBSD advocates ripping eachother to bits over the question of how best to support FreeBSD's *FORWARD MOVEMENT* becomes too great to endure. You're taking it personally now and that means it's time to SHUT UP and get away from your mailers, OK? There are 355 other users and exploders on this list and I'd just like to remind you that you're performing (badly) in front of a large audience. Do the right thing by your remaining reputations and quit while you're behind. Jordan > Gee Mike and YOURE SO GREAT!!!! BSD runs everything on the fucking > planet and we can all go to bed thanks to YOU! > > I don't think so. > > Linux is becoming MORE divergent every day. If YOU want to be like them > go ahead..... > > I think the question was DO we need a BSD specific port and the answer > (SORRY it was just my opinion and I can't speak for the whole world > Einstein, was Yeah, today we do...) > > God I'm humbled ..... > > If you're so bored Mike, go cure cancer and leave us alone... > > -Mike > > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > > > Well, gee and I and all the other people that have worked to get SO > > happening on FreeBSD are just so so impressed with your confidence in > > our abiltities to make it work. > > > > The Linux ABI emulation has progressed, and the linux_lib port has > > eveolved specifically to _ensure_ that valuable commercial > > applications will work. If you think that we are blind to the need > > for this, then you are more incredibly stupid than I had ever > > imagined. > > > > Please, cut it with the fantasizing in public. > > > > -- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:44:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03980 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03967 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA22897; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:43:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AFD2C.3207212A@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:37:48 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David O'Brien" CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <335A7263.1EE50F9E@konnections.com> <19970419213408.34687@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David, No, I've been working with some systems which belong to a nationwide wan tied into some agencies in DC. They all use Applix on Sun as their productivity suite and recently came out with some new runtime apps which run out of ApplixWare's Database & spreadsheet. Those are Sparcs not 386s. Applix runs on them all and seems like the BEST and most appropriate package to bring into Free Unix. RedHat's latest looks absolutely gorgeous and is supposed to import/export MS Word and WordPerfect. Meaning you can leave MSOffice at the retail shop.... -Mike David O'Brien wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > I take it you are in the D.C. area? What do you know of the DoD's use of > Applix on Suns? I'm just courious -- I used to work for Contel Federial > Systems, and they and SRA (who I also worked for), was setting up part of > the Pentigon with Sun 386i's and Applix's office suite (can't remember > the name of it at that time..) > > On Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 12:45:39PM -0700, mike allison wrote: > > And my motivation for Applix is that is IS a commercial UNIX product. > > In use on Sun within the Defense Department and many other US Agencies. > > -- > -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:47:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04050 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04044 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA22936; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335AFE06.4D5A885F@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:41:26 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200441.OAA02744@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Again Mike, you're focusing on a nut. This was an example. But, okay, I'll play your silly game... does Star Office run on every Free Unix platform. Today? Will it tommorrow? Will the same version/port run on every current release of FreeBSD and Linux? -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > After listening to their input, which was calm, reasoned and based in > some cases on direct experience with the ISV's in question, you still > claim there's a need for a BSD-specific port of an application which > is available for Linux? > > I'm sorry; I can't see how you can take such a line, except in the > context of rampant fantasy. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:57:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04340 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04335 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA23095; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:56:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B0037.3CC11DA7@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:50:47 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200441.OAA02744@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was in Colorado Springs drumming up some business and musta missed your discussion. I guess Marc and Jordan and Joel, et al were gone as well. Are we only allowed to discuss something which you moderate, or are we also allowed free discussion of our own? No one claimed any expertise Mike. Jordan brought up your name in reference to Star for preceisely that reason. But I don't think you have the right to try to kill our line, just because you disagree.... or even if you think it's sewn up. If some of us have misconceptions, then obviously word isn't out, is it? If you want to come in and rationally explain where we're right and where we're wrong, hey I'll be first to take notes. If you want to come in and toss names around and attack people instead of their arguments, we'll I went to junior school too... -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > ... and yet when the issue was raised perhaps a week or so ago, and > people that have actually worked with ISV's and with OS vendors > dealing with ISV's were sharing their experiences, you were where? > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 21:59:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04373 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04367 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA02794; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:29:16 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200459.OAA02794@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335AF19E.3A4A39D2@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 09:48:30 pm" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:29:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > I sense a bit of hostility here. Pfagh. No, you sense me being annoyed with people that ramble on about stuff without caring a whit for the facts. If they're not convenient, hell, just make 'em up. You're the one inventing the hostility; I really couldn't care what you do except when it craps on my efforts. > I actually HAVE chacked write-ups reviews and Star's own stuff and > there are always veiled references to Motif. I believe at one time > Motif was a requirement. If it's not anymore they should drop all > references. Uhh, let me get this straight; they should drop all the erroneous references to Motif from other peoples' publications, after they have been published and circulated, because a newer version than the one reviewed no longer has the same requirements? My friend, that wasn't even possible in Soviet Russia. If you are unwilling or unable to keep up with things as they are, and that means ooking at new ports that might be interesting, reading the announce messages off the lists here and elsewhere then the correct procedure is to _ask_ someone. If you had mailed/posted and said "Doesn't the new StarOffice require Motif", I would have said "No, and in fact the only thing that ever required it was the installer, and they linked Motif into it statically this time. Aren't they nice?" > I still think everyones focusing on a single noodle and not the whole > soup... I was only ever intersted in the fact that everyone is criticising one particular noodle which is not deserving of it. The real problem is that too many people are standing around in the kitchen bragging about the recipies they know, and nobody is doing any cooking. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:08:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04621 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04615 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA23236; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B02D4.52313280@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:01:56 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200459.OAA02794@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike: I don't think I was speaking of recipies (I'm glad you spelled it right 'cause I couldn't). I was speaking of business concerns. I never claimed that Star Office needed Motif, I said, Last I knew, it needed Motif and asked for a clarification. That was IMMEDIATELY after seeing a reference to it on Star's page. I asked Jordan if I was wrong about that and he corrected me. I'm satisfied with his answer. My only concern in this whole argument was whether there was a way to distribute commercial programs and protect the vendors and whose responsibility it was to focus on different markets, be they NT/95, BSD, Linux or what have you. I said hostile because I felt you came in when we went overboard with Star as an example and you came in shooting people and calling them stupid. I don't see how that educates anyone..... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:14:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04865 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04860 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA23297; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:13:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B0439.6E44D27D@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:53 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jack , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <14308.861510406@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't think NT's interface for the admin tools is all that bad. It's a bit confusing and redundant at times, but when you do something I think it's clear what you're doing. It's very hard to `stumble' into an admin tool accidently (unfortunately you have to stumble into them on purpose). I think GUI - wise NT does a good job. It's just that it's ALL gui.... Not everyone needs that, nor wants it, BUT I wouldn't take it away from anyone. I thought FVWM-95 was a dumb idea, but I see why others like it. It might not be a bad evangelical tool to get people away from 95 and into Unix. Personally, as a user program, I like what NT gives me. As an administrator, it's just too much, or maybe I'm just not sure what's going on. I got used to it quickly, but there's times, like on the Mac, when I didn't know how to do what I wanted to do through the GUI.... -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It's NOT - where did you get that idea? I merely said that their > implementation of GUIs to *handle these problems* was the key > advantage. It's the idea that counts, not the implementation. The > first n implementations of *anyone*'s installation & admin tools > generally suck, as things go, but if the authors have the right ideas > and are willing to stick with it, something pretty good can be > evolved. Windows has done a good job of creating a lot of > well-documented APIs and installation helpers, their implementation > just needs to advance another couple of generations more. :) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:18:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05098 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05092 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA02863; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:47:41 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200517.OAA02863@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335AF9A9.74E327A5@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 10:22:50 pm" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:47:41 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > I realise that I'm just STUPID, right Mike, so tell me, Why do I have a > BRAND NEW, LATEST RELEASE, $400 (That's US Too) Linux Commercial package > on my desk which WARNS in big letters that it may not run on all > versions of LINUX because of library incompatibilities? I haven't the faintest idea, Mike. Why don't you tell us why you have a package on your desk that warns you about the inability of Linux distribution management to coordinate with their ISV's? > You tell me, smart guy, if there isn't a problem out there REAL or > PERCEIVED, that if I bother to port my product to Linux or BSD that I > might have a problem with inconsistent libraries and kernels. Well, if you're an ISV, and we haven't spoken to you about it, then shit Mike, I'm sorry. International phone calls in the middle of the night still cost me money. Still, do you actually have any problems running this application on FreeBSD? Have I, or any of the other ABI-interested people seen any mail from you on the subject? Currently, I know of one problem with one product (Franz Lisp) which appears to actually be a bug in the ABI emulation; I haven't heard anything about it lately. If there are problems with applications running under the emulation(s) we support, then we want to know about them. We're not telepathic, and we don't have the financial resources to test everything, so we depend on the support and encouragement of the user community to get us by. You don't, actually, sound very supportive to me, Mike. You sound greedy and insistent; although I would love to be wrong about that. > I might also add, although you're far to smart to have missed it, that > Marc was speaking of Star Office as and example only, and said that > explicitly. Uhm, right. This is not an eight-kilo sledge, and I am not pinning your feet to the floor with hardnails. > And that my comment, which you must have slept through while discovering > cold fusion, was that we needed a way to ensure that Commercial vendors > could know that the hooks they relied on were there in all releases or > that they were informed of major changes early enough to encorporate > them into their production cycle. Er, which is what I, and other ISV contacts _do_. About a week ago, we had a volunteer collecting the names of people working with ISV's in order to formalise and coordinate things a little better; I was impressed with the initiative. > I'm sorry if you solve all that over tea, the rest of us just weren't > informed, unfortunately neither were some vendors.... Well, how about asking? I don't think there's much more you could ask for than an answer, and if you have a vendor that's looking for similar answers, why haven't we heard from you or them? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:30:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05573 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05568 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA23511; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:29:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B07EA.50E5B450@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:23:38 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scrappy@hub.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200517.OAA02863@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > Well, if you're an ISV, and we haven't spoken to you about it, then > shit Mike, I'm sorry. International phone calls in the middle of the > night still cost me money. Still, do you actually have any problems > running this application on FreeBSD? Have I, or any of the other > ABI-interested people seen any mail from you on the subject? > > > If there are problems with applications running under the emulation(s) > we support, then we want to know about them. We're not telepathic, > and we don't have the financial resources to test everything, so we > depend on the support and encouragement of the user community to get > us by. You don't, actually, sound very supportive to me, Mike. You > sound greedy and insistent; although I would love to be wrong about > that. > > > Er, which is what I, and other ISV contacts _do_. About a week ago, > we had a volunteer collecting the names of people working with ISV's > in order to formalise and coordinate things a little better; I was > impressed with the initiative. Actually Mike, Jordan was asked about 2 weeks ago what Free BSD does to support the vendors, I think this is when much of this came up. And I suggested Free BSD start a list to keep the vendors informed. You know, I can site here all night (day for you) and listen to you call me stupid, selfish, greedy, etcetera. I'd like to know where you get your information about me. Let's see, I have said today: Vendors should keep track of their own stuff and not rely on RedHat, Caldera, or Free BSD. That Vendors shouldn't feel that anyone will ask for their code. That I'd be willing to pay top dollar for good apps (i.e. I didn't expect packages to be free of cost) Gee Mike, where do you get greedy from? Have I asked for money? Did I say I expected people to call me and inform me of every move? NO... I said there are PERCEPTIONS Mike..... Just normal, everyday folk that don't necessarily want to port their stuff to Unix, who think Free anything is a crock of techy bull shite and as unstable as Charles Manson. But AGAIN.... this was just our discussion. You know what, I reserve the right to be wrong and for everyone else to be wrong. I think you can stop attacking me now, though. If you had a little more self confidence maybe you could focus on the argument at hand... Thanks for your input. I apologise if we said anything today which damaged the official reputation of Free BSD or any of your efforts to improve the situation. It was unintended. I also apologise if we offended your sensibilities, that was not our intent. We could have used your input and insight earlier as a number of ideas which we are not experts in arose which you claim expertise on. I would have enjoyed your input, I think. I hope in the future you can limit your abuse to the points made and not the person holding the pointer. Those things are sharp.... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:36:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05747 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05742 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA02926; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:06:16 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200536.PAA02926@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335AFD2C.3207212A@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Apr 20, 97 10:37:48 pm" To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:06:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison stands accused of saying: > > They all use Applix on Sun as their productivity suite and recently came > out with some new runtime apps which run out of ApplixWare's Database & > spreadsheet. > > Those are Sparcs not 386s. Applix runs on them all and seems like the > BEST and most appropriate package to bring into Free Unix. I couldn't get Applix to come up with an eval version, and I had several preople complain about its poor import/export. FWIW, SO runs on Solaris (sparc) as well; I don't think there's any question of which is the "most" appropriate in this context; we should be encouraging everyone to support the FU marketplace. > RedHat's latest looks absolutely gorgeous and is supposed to > import/export MS Word and WordPerfect. Meaning you can leave MSOffice > at the retail shop.... SO looks very familiar too, and though it doesn't do WP format it's Word import/export is pretty fine. I had a lot of fun editing Yahoo's title page in HTML mode too. 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 22:50:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06250 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06243 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip204.konnections.com [192.41.71.204]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA23705; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B0CA2.16810B48@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:43:46 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <199704200536.PAA02926@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > I couldn't get Applix to come up with an eval version, and I had > several preople complain about its poor import/export. > > FWIW, SO runs on Solaris (sparc) as well; I don't think there's any > question of which is the "most" appropriate in this context; we should > be encouraging everyone to support the FU marketplace. > RedHat was very generous in offering an eval copy to us. They even offered the latest release. I had heard that the file format i/o was broken on earlier editions. I haven't tried it out yet, as it only arrived yesterday, but one of our contributors said it was working fine. I shouldn't have put the 'most' appropriate here. That was petty. I think most mature at this juncture is what I meant. SO and everyone else should get an equal shot... We don't want to kill off vendors (yet, anyway : -} )) -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 19 23:15:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07164 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07153 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial2-4.cybercom.net [206.28.134.68]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA06626 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970420061501.007118bc@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:15:01 -0400 To: chat@freebsd.org From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >SO looks very familiar too, and though it doesn't do WP format it's >Word import/export is pretty fine. I had a lot of fun editing Yahoo's >title page in HTML mode too. 8) > By the way, didn't Caldera hook up somebody to bring WordPerfect 6.0 to Linux? What about getting that on FreeBSD? K.S.