From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 00:29:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA09634 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09629 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA03208; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:59:14 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704200729.QAA03208@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970420061501.007118bc@cybercom.net> from The Classiest Man Alive at "Apr 20, 97 02:15:01 am" To: ksmm@cybercom.net (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:59:14 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Classiest Man Alive stands accused of saying: > >SO looks very familiar too, and though it doesn't do WP format it's > >Word import/export is pretty fine. I had a lot of fun editing Yahoo's > >title page in HTML mode too. 8) > > > By the way, didn't Caldera hook up somebody to bring WordPerfect 6.0 to > Linux? What about getting that on FreeBSD? So the rumour went. Current rumour is that they'll be shipping StarOffice. I'm still waiting to see what really happens 8) > K.S. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 00:41:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA09901 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09896 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA18992; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:41:03 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:41:00 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: The Hermit Hacker cc: dennis , Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could we *PLEASE* take this thread to -chat? Yes, we - I answered to some mail some time ago and my address has sticked to it since. I think it should have long gone to private mails. Sander On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > > > I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because > > the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, > > but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! > > like temperments attract? > > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 01:00:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10633 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 01:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10621 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA19067; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:50:42 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:50:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: dennis , The Hermit Hacker , Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > [Ok, since we're temporarily allowed to spam -hackers, I've > been waiting for a chance to say something for *so* long!] > DAMN! THIS SHOULD NOT BE SO. [snip] > > (Ok, don't mind me...I'm a little hyper since someone > finally said they missed me, which is a small step in the > direction I've been trying to push them recently... ;-) > > > PS. Check out the new FreeBSD slogan in my sig! ;-) Grr... Hey folks, isn't -chat sufficent to argue this kinds of things out? There *still* (though it does make me wander) are sensible topics around on -hackers. Sander > > -- > tIM...HOEk > FreeBSD: "Free" refers to the price, not the philosophy! > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 02:03:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12612 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12607 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paul@localhost) by originat.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA02693; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:06:22 +0100 (BST) To: mike allison Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jack , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> <335AD6EC.7306BE6D@konnections.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 20 Apr 1997 10:06:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: mike allison's message of Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:54:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87lo6enjw2.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Lines: 52 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison writes: > They aren't mutually exclusive, rather complementary. The point was > sacrificing one for the other at Microsoft. They took away our low > level access and tried to replace it with GUI programs which are still > too abstract to allow what you need. If the GUI is in the way, having a > program under the GUI isn't going to let you fix it.....Unless it's > built more like X or even Win3.x which is merely an app on the OS not > the whole OS... > > NT needs an NTterm where you can attack the machine.... Well, not to appear to come out in Microsoft's defence but actually they haven't. The shipped usr interface may be a GUI but that doesn't mean you can't write a more unix like interface, in much the same way that you add a GUI on top of the unix CLI. Anyone looked at OpenNT? I took a look at a web page of theirs someone showed me and it looks very interesting. They've built a parallel Unix clone alongside the Windows GUI and they've done it from a low level of the NT structure, from the diagram they've built on top of the kernel rather than hooking above or into the Win32 system. I'm actually *COMPLETELY* in favour of a Unix GUI that is as tightly coupled to the OS as Windows is but as Jordan keeps pointing out, this won't prevent you popping up an xterm to a shell prompt or for that matter bringing up a "standard" vt220 terminal on another vty. When I'm not doing development I much prefer to be on a Windows box to a Unix box and having both environments on the same box with Unix underneath would be the best of both worlds to me. I was very impressed with StarOffice, it perhaps signifies a changing trend, a very very small step againts the Micorsoft juggernaut but nevertheless it's the first truly functional Windows like application that I've seen on Unix and while developers may not get all excited by it, as a developer who'd rather do "office" tasks on a windows box I was very encouraged by it. (Office tasks being writing letters, spreadsheet work, accounts etc which even thoug I'm a developer I have to do to keep my company ticking over). Maybe we could approach the Linux camp about a common ELF API for free unix systems and then there won't be this confusion about Linux binaries running on FreeBSD, there'll just be i386 FreeElf format. With some careful marketing we can stop claiming Linux emulation and just treat it as an alternative native format. This has kind of worked for BSDI emulation since many vendors now offer BSD binaries rather than BSDI binaries. -- Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. Internet: paul@originat.demon.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (UK Mobile) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 05:44:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18939 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18933 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id PAA14411; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:44:26 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704201244.PAA14411@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Apr 19, 97 02:34:00 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:44:26 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, mark@quickweb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > How come Linux is so well-known? What in its history caused it to > Pretty much the first *free* Unix-like operating system. I think > its only predecessor was Minix(?) It wasn't for about a year after I played > with Linux that I even heard of FreeBSD... uh. i had been using freebsd for months when i first heard about linux at all, and it's somewhat strange since i live in helsinki and was studying in a college at the time... later i've earned that back then, 92, the linux had already been a while, so had freebsd. and mostly coz of our administrator of the time, and those linux freaks we had in our school from the start of 93, i was pretty well alienated from any ideas of ever even considering running linux. since i found the attitude those linux people had revolting. it was in category of religious fanatics, only few magnitudes more. *gag* anyway, incidently, atleast few of those back then freaks have turned into freebsd as soon as they left school and started to do something serious. *smile* mickey -- mika@aeon.net <- just watch me rising on rc5 stats :p From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 05:46:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA19053 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19048 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id PAA14424; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:47:00 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704201247.PAA14424@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704191817.LAA23491@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Apr 19, 97 11:17:24 am" To: sef@Kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:47:00 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As an aside, if Linux networking had been usable at the time 386BSD came > out, I would now be running linux, not freebsd. (And, frankly, if certain > persons had not been running the netbsd systems, there's a good chance I'd > be working with *that*. Don't you all feel special now? :)) dont you feel like scared at all? =) i would... mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 06:05:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19526 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19521 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06396; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970420090409.33973@panix.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:04:09 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: The Classiest Man Alive , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <1.5.4.32.19970420061501.007118bc@cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970420061501.007118bc@cybercom.net>; from The Classiest Man Alive on Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 02:15:01AM -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's a piece of crap. Don't bother. They're already writing version 8.0 for Windows. 6.0 is a very awkward, clunky program. I've run it on Linux. Don't know if it'll run on FreeBSD. I tossed the CD in the ash can a year ago. And it *wasn't* free. On Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 02:15:01AM -0400, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > >SO looks very familiar too, and though it doesn't do WP format it's > >Word import/export is pretty fine. I had a lot of fun editing Yahoo's > >title page in HTML mode too. 8) > > > By the way, didn't Caldera hook up somebody to bring WordPerfect 6.0 to > Linux? What about getting that on FreeBSD? > > K.S. > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 07:49:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA24659 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24654 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA26479; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B8B10.44C181A7@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:43:12 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <1.5.4.32.19970420061501.007118bc@cybercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk K.S.: Mike Smith's point is that if things continue as they plan, the programs will eventually run on both platforms, or may even today. -Mike The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > >SO looks very familiar too, and though it doesn't do WP format it's > >Word import/export is pretty fine. I had a lot of fun editing Yahoo's > >title page in HTML mode too. 8) > > > By the way, didn't Caldera hook up somebody to bring WordPerfect 6.0 to > Linux? What about getting that on FreeBSD? > > K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 08:07:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25468 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25462 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA26617; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B8F21.23D249EB@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:00:33 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jack , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> <335AD6EC.7306BE6D@konnections.com> <87lo6enjw2.fsf@originat.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul: Yeah, I've toyed with the idea of doing a NTterm sorta program and I know the hooks exit. I just wonder why it was never part of the original. What you described from OpenNT reminds me of NeXT. You open up a command line terminal from Mach to do Unix-y things while the NeXT GUI is running. It is almost like you have parallel interfaces going. At least that's the feel. Really I think a number of programs use this sorta like the `Dos' window. The work and take over part of the resources then return them when done. -Mike Paul Richards wrote: > > mike allison writes: > > > They aren't mutually exclusive, rather complementary. The point was > > sacrificing one for the other at Microsoft. They took away our low > > level access and tried to replace it with GUI programs which are still > > too abstract to allow what you need. If the GUI is in the way, having a > > program under the GUI isn't going to let you fix it.....Unless it's > > built more like X or even Win3.x which is merely an app on the OS not > > the whole OS... > > > > NT needs an NTterm where you can attack the machine.... > > Well, not to appear to come out in Microsoft's defence but actually > they haven't. The shipped usr interface may be a GUI but that doesn't > mean you can't write a more unix like interface, in much the same way > that you add a GUI on top of the unix CLI. > > Anyone looked at OpenNT? I took a look at a web page of theirs > someone showed me and it looks very interesting. They've built a > parallel Unix clone alongside the Windows GUI and they've done it from > a low level of the NT structure, from the diagram they've built on top > of the kernel rather than hooking above or into the Win32 system. > > Dr Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. > Internet: paul@originat.demon.co.uk > Phone: 0370 462071 (UK Mobile) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 09:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28262 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-22.netcom.ca [207.181.94.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28250 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA04267; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:09:26 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:09:26 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Michael Smith cc: mike allison , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <199704200441.OAA02744@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > I think the question was DO we need a BSD specific port and the answer > > (SORRY it was just my opinion and I can't speak for the whole world > > Einstein, was Yeah, today we do...) > > ... and yet when the issue was raised perhaps a week or so ago, and > people that have actually worked with ISV's and with OS vendors > dealing with ISV's were sharing their experiences, you were where? > > After listening to their input, which was calm, reasoned and based in > some cases on direct experience with the ISV's in question, you still > claim there's a need for a BSD-specific port of an application which > is available for Linux? > > I'm sorry; I can't see how you can take such a line, except in the > context of rampant fantasy. Geez, I don't know...tell me which argument would be easier to sell: "Hi, you should run FreeBSD because of all the good commercial Linux products that will run underneath it" -or- "Hi, you should run Linux, since alot of the good commercial products run underneath it" I don't want to run Linux, but its like IBM going out with this *great* operating system (vs Windows) and trying to explain how ISVs won't port to them because they have no market, *but*, hey, we can emulate Windows enough to run all the latest MicroSloth products. Of course, what happens when Windows changes their API just so slightly that the OS/2/Windows emulator won't handle the newest code? *shrug* Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 09:32:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29373 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ian.broken.net (R-ddo.resnet.ucsb.edu [128.111.120.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29362; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ian@localhost) by ian.broken.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA23950; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.0 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <335A4973.5C411E8A@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Struble To: mike allison Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, scrappy@hub.org, dyson@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I can't speak about England, but the whole mass transit thing is great. When I went to school in Canada, I took either the bus or the ferry all the time and it was great. There is a big social aspect to mass transit that most people here in the states will never quite understand let alone appreciate. But I guess there is that large cross section of America that isn't 'all that keen on making friends' that wouldn't appreciate it if they could. Ian On 20-Apr-97 mike allison wrote: >The thing I LOVE about England is that I NEVER have to drive. No >Parking, finding the car, negotiating traffic, getting uptight....No, >No, no.... > >Americans are too wed to their cars to ever really appreciate the >benefits of mass transit. The part I enjoy is the social aspect of >seeing friends and making friends on the train & bus. I don't think >americans are all that keen on making friends, though... > >-Mike > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 12:00:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06355 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06320 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970116) with ESMTP id OAA10579; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPN/970116) with ESMTP id OAA20330; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:59:26 -0400 (EDT) To: mike allison cc: "John S. Dyson" , The Hermit Hacker , jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:14:16 PDT." <335A40D8.37E3760C@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:59:25 -0400 Message-ID: <20327.861562765@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison wrote in message ID <335A40D8.37E3760C@konnections.com>: > John: > > I beg to differ -- ANY reason to visit England from America is worth ^^^^^^^ The UK, if you please > it. I wish more Americans could see and understand the wonderful > differences between our countries. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to which > I truely call home.... Gary (Scottish) -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 12:08:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06737 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06722; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970116) with ESMTP id PAA11793; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPN/970116) with ESMTP id PAA23030; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:07:23 -0400 (EDT) To: Stephen Roome cc: dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:04:05 BST." Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:07:23 -0400 Message-ID: <23027.861563243@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen Roome wrote in message ID : > I disagree with this original point. It's just wrong, it takes years to > find a parking space anywhere in England, unless of course you don't mind > having your car clamped. Serves you right for living south of the border :P~ :) > Oh, there's no computer shops if you live, for example, in Scotland. Really? Scotland even has Maplin ya know ... Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 12:16:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07147 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07142 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970116) with ESMTP id PAA13153; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPN/970116) with ESMTP id PAA24477; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:39 -0400 (EDT) To: mike allison cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:52:09 PDT." <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:39 -0400 Message-ID: <24463.861563739@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison wrote in message ID <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com>: > Gee Mike and YOURE SO GREAT!!!! BSD runs everything on the fucking > planet and we can all go to bed thanks to YOU! Please. We don't need language like this on the lists. Even tho this IS -chat, there is no need for it. Thankyou Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 12:55:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10024 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10012; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20566; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:03:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:03:13 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Gary Palmer cc: dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-obscure-off-topic-conversations@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <23027.861563243@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Gary Palmer wrote: > Really? Scotland even has Maplin ya know ... More great reasons to live in Scotland there =) Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 13:17:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12161 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12144 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA07907; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704201921.NAA07907@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> References: <335A4537.7AC6599C@konnections.com> <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > quite a few projects. Remember GEM? Anyone seen the Original GEM (Ver > > Yeah, I do. It wasn't half bad, which is why I figured it died. :-) > "BETAmaxed" Me too. I was looking for my hardcopies of the "ST Professional GEM" series of columns just this week. I was attempting to convince a couple of the Windows Weenies at work that their user interface was confusing because they didn't understand the psychology of people sitting in front of computers and needed one of the "religion" articles to look up some reference material. That was a nice user interface system, for its day. Too bad DR never moved it to UNIX. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 13:46:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15554 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15542 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA07925; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:49:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:49:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704201949.NAA07925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: UNIX sysadmin GUI (was: Price of FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> References: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, I just couldn't stay out of this. I once spent a significant portion of my time and personal energy to designing something along the lines of what Jordan is discussing here, and would like to offer my insight. Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > By `fancy setup and configuration tools' I sure hope you don't mean NT's > > install that blew up on us probing an Adaptec 1542. We tried to let it > > No, of course not. That would be deliberate stupidity and I'm not > talking about anything like that. > > Also, the UNIX traditionalists should please bear in mind that such an > interface would NOT BE DESIGNED FOR THEM. Well, perhaps even the gurus would use it to do the simple, day-to-day stuff. The important part to understand is that the command line tools and configuration files would remain the same. All you need to do in order to 'dumb down' UNIX administration to the point that most people can do it is: o Reduce the most common operations to a dialog or two. How much information do you *really* need to collect to add a user account to a UNIX system? Right, adduser does it all with about 10 questions. OK, collect these 10 questions into a dialog box so the user can *easily* change her mind. Same for 'rmuser', 'adddisk', etc. o Provide reasonable defaults for almost everything. Setting up printers on FreeBSD is a good example of this. Everytime I see a message like 'how can I print postscript on my XXX-jet?' I chime in with 'install apsfilter!' How 'bout we make a simple 'add printer' dialog that asks you what kind of printer it is, where it is plugged in, installs apsfilter and/or ghostscript if not already there, and edits the config files? > It all just totally misses the point, which is that *we're not talking > about their needs* when we bring up the idea of an all-singing, > all-dancing GUI-based administration system, nor is such a system > meant to REPLACE anything about the current CLI based approach. It's > the #1 straw-man argument every time this comes up that "anyone > wishing to dumb-down UNIX and replace its hallowed, cherished > interfaces with a GUI should be shot" despite the fact that the > proponents have never even remotely suggest *replacing* anything, and > such a system would be a wholly optional add-on. However, no matter Optional in that the first thing you see is a dialog that says: FreeBSD installation If you want to install FreeBSD on your computer with a minimum of fuss and bother, click the Guru button to have the FreeBSD Guru help you finish the installation. If you're already a FreeBSD Guru, or are familiar with another UNIX system, click the CLI button to start the installation shell. If you are not sure which to choose, try the Guru first. You can view the CLI shell from within the Guru at any time. [ Guru ] [ CLI ] > how clear the advocates may make this, it just doesn't matter - > mention the very concept and it's Fear And Loathing time, rumors of > the imminent arrival of apocalyptic horsemen and the minions of Gates > being fiercely debated in every mailing list. For system administration tasks, die-hards could continue to use adduser et al if they wish. The product we had designed included both a cli and a report writer so it could be used from shell scripts or cron. We had some advanced ideas that even cli die-hards would want, however. For instance, you could create a new user by copying the attributes of an existing user; you were asked for a username, a full name, and an office phone number. Everything else was defaulted, including the location of the home directory. We also had user templates, you could create a template for a programmer, one for an accounting user, one for a support tech, etc. Believe me, it is really *quite* simple to automate many day-to-day UNIX administration tasks without replacing a single system component. You just simply write smart code, put a *really simple* GUI over it, and do your very best at picking reasonable defaults and automagically probing and detecting options wherever they can be determined. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 14:27:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18680 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (pa4dsp9.x31.infi.net [206.27.115.105]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18664 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19027; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:25:42 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704202005.NAA08460@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > NoThanks 4.0's stock ATI ??? video drivers can't change desktop font size > > > without a re-boot. > > > > Aw, gee, its a tough one this. Can put up with NT's annoying need to > > reboot after changeing IP settings etc or some of these screen > > resolution issues in return for Excel and Word and VC++ and VJ++ and > > Access and a decent choice of web browsers and Purify that I can afford? > > Unless you are talking about NT 3.51, you're wrong: it does not need > a reboot, just an undocumented call into an undocumented DLL. Microsoft Now isn't that handy? If you've got the time and inclination to reverse engineer the damned thing you can make it do what you want, if not just settle for what it gives you. > just likes to ask for reboots because their change flag doesn't have > the necessary granularity to distinguish between "changes needing a > reboot" and "simple changes" -- all they see are "changes". Now that makes it a real good choice to use as a critical server. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 14:37:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19157 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA19152 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA10247; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:34:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704202134.OAA10247@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: jack@xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:34:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "jack" at Apr 20, 97 05:25:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unless you are talking about NT 3.51, you're wrong: it does not need > > a reboot, just an undocumented call into an undocumented DLL. Microsoft > > Now isn't that handy? If you've got the time and inclination to reverse > engineer the damned thing you can make it do what you want, if not just > settle for what it gives you. Or you can just use their tools and their stacks and their software like you are supposed to do. The problem only occurs when you go and buy third party software from a third party who has not paid the piper, either through sweat or through licensing fees to MS. > > just likes to ask for reboots because their change flag doesn't have > > the necessary granularity to distinguish between "changes needing a > > reboot" and "simple changes" -- all they see are "changes". > > Now that makes it a real good choice to use as a critical server. :) It always errs on the side of caution, so it may be rebooted more often than needed, but it's no less stable for the decision. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 14:52:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19764 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19758 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA29965; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:51:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BEE23.5F4EE85F@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:45:55 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I dunno Marc: Mike's perspective is that the ISVs, Linux Distributors and *BSD folks are at least partially in bed together. I can't say they're not. I can't say that they're convergent, but he insists that I'm wrong to say that they're divergent. He says they all talk and work together..... I dunno except, he's there and I'm not... -Mike The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > I don't want to run Linux, but its like IBM going out with this *great* > operating system (vs Windows) and trying to explain how ISVs won't port to > them because they have no market, *but*, hey, we can emulate Windows enough > to run all the latest MicroSloth products. Of course, what happens when > Windows changes their API just so slightly that the OS/2/Windows emulator > won't handle the newest code? > > *shrug* > > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 14:56:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19945 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19878; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA29992; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BEEDA.13BCF647@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:48:58 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Struble CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, scrappy@hub.org, dyson@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know Ian, I know it worked great everywhere I've lived in England (mostly in the North) Beats the hell out of driving and paying for your own car. Vancouver had a good system, as does Seattle. In America people refer to it as "The Shame Train". You take the bus 'cause you can't afford a car. No one would understand that the train/bus can be easier and more relaxing....They also don't understand that normal people ride the bus.... -Mike Ian Struble wrote: > > I can't speak about England, but the whole mass transit thing is great. When I > went to school in Canada, I took either the bus or the ferry all the time and > it was great. There is a big social aspect to mass transit that most people > here in the states will never quite understand let alone appreciate. But I > guess there is that large cross section of America that isn't 'all that keen on > making friends' that wouldn't appreciate it if they could. > > Ian From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:02:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20184 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20167; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00169; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:01:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BF072.7C008408@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:55:47 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Palmer CC: "John S. Dyson" , The Hermit Hacker , jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <20327.861562765@orion.webspan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some call it the UK, others call it England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I won't get into my personal politics, but I will apologise for leaving out other countries as if on purpose... it wasn't... -Mike Gary Palmer wrote: > > mike allison wrote in message ID > <335A40D8.37E3760C@konnections.com>: > > John: > > > > I beg to differ -- ANY reason to visit England from America is worth > ^^^^^^^ > > The UK, if you please > > > it. I wish more Americans could see and understand the wonderful > > differences between our countries. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to which > > I truely call home.... > > Gary (Scottish) > -- > Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member > FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:05:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20340 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20331; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00182; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:04:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BF127.EAB257@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:58:48 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Palmer CC: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: <24463.861563739@orion.webspan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary: Well, I apologise if I offended anyone's sensibilities. However, when someone calls me stupid in public that would have been my public response. It's a two way street. I find `Stupid' a more offending word personally. But, I do apologise... -Mike Gary Palmer wrote: > > mike allison wrote in message ID > <335AF279.3FED8906@konnections.com>: > > Gee Mike and YOURE SO GREAT!!!! BSD runs everything on the fucking > > planet and we can all go to bed thanks to YOU! > > Please. We don't need language like this on the lists. Even tho this > IS -chat, there is no need for it. > > Thankyou > > Gary > -- > Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member > FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:05:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20379 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-08.netcom.ca [207.181.94.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20373 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost.hub.org [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA06051; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:05:14 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:05:14 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: mike allison cc: Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought In-Reply-To: <335BEE23.5F4EE85F@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > I dunno Marc: > > Mike's perspective is that the ISVs, Linux Distributors and *BSD folks > are at least partially in bed together. I can't say they're not. I > can't say that they're convergent, but he insists that I'm wrong to say > that they're divergent. > > He says they all talk and work together..... > > I dunno except, he's there and I'm not... First of all...the whole thread went downhill the moment that Michael entered the conversation with "fire in his eyes", which is sad ;( Second of all...we're down to 'fueling the fire' and not really accomplishing anything that I can see, so this is my last posting under this topic... Lastly...I think there may be alot going on behind the scenes that the 'general population' is unaware of, as intimated by Jordan several days ago. Some of this thread may have been reinventing a wheel that is already rolling, but we won't know until we actually see that wheel :( IMHO, Michael's whole argument against this thread was mostly likely a result of him going into a defensive mode, thinking that we weren't appreciatative of all the work he, and others, have put into the Linux code. This was *not* meant to be the case...without the Linux code, I'd never have looked at StarOffice in the first place, or, in some cases, be able to run Netscape, or...*shrug* Michael...as I told you in private email, I think the Linux emulation code should be seen more as a means to an end instead of the end itself, and it was that end that I was trying to ... stimulate discussions on. I don't believe that we have much of a chance of getting FreeBSD out of the 'techies' hands until we can get some more solid 'Windows' like software (SO being used *merely* as an example)...the Linux emulation code, IMHO, is a means to that end, as we can *at least* run the Linux applications *now*, while attepmting to work with ISVs towards making Native ports. Towards that end, WINE is another means to an ends...by providing us a method of running existing software on what we *all* agree is a better operating system...but I'd still rather run the software native to my operating system of choice, and not emulate an operating system that I want little to no part in *shrug* The end... > > -Mike > > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > > I don't want to run Linux, but its like IBM going out with this *great* > > operating system (vs Windows) and trying to explain how ISVs won't port to > > them because they have no market, *but*, hey, we can emulate Windows enough > > to run all the latest MicroSloth products. Of course, what happens when > > Windows changes their API just so slightly that the OS/2/Windows emulator > > won't handle the newest code? > > > > *shrug* > > > > Marc G. Fournier > > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:08:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20478 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20473 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00221; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:07:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BF1E3.208BEE4B@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:01:55 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <335A4537.7AC6599C@konnections.com> <3933.861467275@time.cdrom.com> <199704201921.NAA07907@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk DR never moved it to UNIX, but they did build a multitasking windowing environment out of it. For at least 3 platforms, I recall.... Windows washed them overboard, though..... -Mike Wes Peters wrote: > > > > quite a few projects. Remember GEM? Anyone seen the Original GEM (Ver > > > > Yeah, I do. It wasn't half bad, which is why I figured it died. :-) > > "BETAmaxed" > > Me too. I was looking for my hardcopies of the "ST Professional GEM" > series of columns just this week. I was attempting to convince a couple > of the Windows Weenies at work that their user interface was confusing > because they didn't understand the psychology of people sitting in front > of computers and needed one of the "religion" articles to look up some > reference material. > > That was a nice user interface system, for its day. Too bad DR never > moved it to UNIX. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:15:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20748 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20743 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00283; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:14:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BF375.13483718@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:08:37 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: UNIX sysadmin GUI (was: Price of FreeBSD) References: <5354.861482487@time.cdrom.com> <199704201949.NAA07925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters wrote: > > Sorry, I just couldn't stay out of this. I once spent a significant > portion of my time and personal energy to designing something along the > lines of what Jordan is discussing here, and would like to offer my > insight. > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > By `fancy setup and configuration tools' I sure hope you don't mean NT's > > > install that blew up on us probing an Adaptec 1542. We tried to let it > > > > No, of course not. That would be deliberate stupidity and I'm not > > talking about anything like that. > > > > Also, the UNIX traditionalists should please bear in mind that such an > > interface would NOT BE DESIGNED FOR THEM. > > Well, perhaps even the gurus would use it to do the simple, day-to-day > stuff. The important part to understand is that the command line tools > and configuration files would remain the same. This is what I meant about NT. I think the AddUser facility in NT is fine. I think a lot of the ROUTINE stuff is fine, but there are times when it's easier and more straightforward to get the command line or a terminal. But, I also copped a caveat by saying maybe it was just that the NT GUI was strange to me and I need to learn to appreciate it..... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:25:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21243 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21232 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00366; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BF59F.51655AE3@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:17:51 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial, Non-Hacker CD Distribution - A thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > so this is my last posting under > this topic... Here, here, I'll conform as well... > > Lastly...I think there may be alot going on behind the scenes that > the 'general population' is unaware of, And THAT was my point. Not that it wasn't being done, but that it wasn't well publicised. I guess Mike thought we all knew what was going on and that his efforts must be crap. From that point of view, I'd be pissed too. However, such was not the case. I think there's still some larger issues but, I would have liked to have Mike's insight early in the discussion..... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 15:49:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23787 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23779 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA00418; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:48:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:48:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199704202248.SAA00418@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: mallison@konnections.com CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <335AD6EC.7306BE6D@konnections.com> (message from mike allison on Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:54:36 -0700) Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > NT needs an NTterm where you can attack the machine.... 95's command.com just wouldn't cut it, tho. The Unix toolbox theory letting those of us with glasses write micro-programs on the command line to get nontrivial tasks accomplished is decidedly a Good Thing. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 16:19:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25980 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25975 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA00891; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:18:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335C027E.1CF2FAC7@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:12:47 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704202248.SAA00418@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeah, I don't know enough about what NT's built on. Certainly Unix is still unix whether you're running X or not. I don't know how closely NT is built into the machine or what the underlying philosophy is. -Mike Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > NT needs an NTterm where you can attack the machine.... > > 95's command.com just wouldn't cut it, tho. The Unix toolbox theory > letting those of us with glasses write micro-programs on the command > line to get nontrivial tasks accomplished is decidedly a Good Thing. > > -- > http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu > All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. > > Second law of programming: > Anything that can go wrong wi > sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 16:33:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27135 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27130 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip214.konnections.com [192.41.71.214]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA01040; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335C05D3.5E6DF78F@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:26:59 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: How many?] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Cynthia Hillson wrote: > > A friend sent this to me: > > Question: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take > to change a light bulb? > > Answer: 1,331: > > 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail > list that the light bulb has been changed > 14 to share similar experiences of changing light > bulbs and how the light bulb could have been > changed differently. > 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about > changing light bulbs. > 53 to flame the spell checkers > 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about > the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness > to this mail list. > 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. > 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and > to please take this email exchange to alt-chat@lite-bulb.com > 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, > alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing > light bulbs be stopped. > 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we > are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts > **are** relevant to this mail list. > 306 to debate which method of changing light > bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, > what brand of light bulbs work best for this > technique, and what brands are faulty. > 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of > different light bulbs > 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and > to post corrected URLs. > 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that > are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs > relevant to this list. > 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote > them including all headers and footers, and then > add "Me Too." > 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing > because they cannot handle the light bulb > controversey. > 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." > 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. > 1 to propose new alt.change-chat@lite-bulb.com list. > 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion-chat > was meant for, leave it here. > 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb@lite-bulb.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 19:47:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08614 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (qmailr@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu [129.101.191.123]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08608 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 984 invoked by uid 1003); 21 Apr 1997 02:47:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19970420194730.53293@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:47:30 -0700 From: faried nawaz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: motif build. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64e Organization: dis. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A friend's been working on a word processor, and wants to do a snapshot release of his code (with some binaries). He has built binaries for IRIX 5.3, Solaris 2.x, and FreeBSD 2.x. The FreeBSD binary uses Lesstif, which works almost exactly like the Motif-based Solaris/IRIX ones, but he'd like a real Motif binary. Can someone help in building that? Neither of us own CDE or Motif for FreeBSD. The software requirements are Motif and Guile (ftp://ftp.cyclic.com/pub/guile/) on FreeBSD 2.x. Thanks, faried. -- faried nawaz box 3582, moscow id 83843-1914, usa. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 22:35:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16790 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16783 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA18430; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:34:55 -0700 (PDT) To: faried nawaz cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: motif build. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:47:30 PDT." <19970420194730.53293@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:34:54 -0700 Message-ID: <18428.861600894@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Solaris/IRIX ones, but he'd like a real Motif binary. Can someone > help in building that? Neither of us own CDE or Motif for FreeBSD. Yes, I can help you out. How do you want to do this? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 20 23:51:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22764 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22748 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA21639 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:51:18 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21782; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:46:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:46:29 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Unix-haters X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anybody have the address of the unix-haters list? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 00:57:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA27817 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27812; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17417; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:57:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: mike allison cc: Ian Struble , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, scrappy@hub.org, dyson@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <335BEEDA.13BCF647@konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > I don't know Ian, I know it worked great everywhere I've lived in > England (mostly in the North) Beats the hell out of driving and paying > for your own car. Vancouver had a good system, as does Seattle. > > In America people refer to it as "The Shame Train". You take the bus > 'cause you can't afford a car. No one would understand that the > train/bus can be easier and more relaxing....They also don't understand > that normal people ride the bus.... > > -Mike > Not always -- growing up in New York, I never learned to drive, because the bus and subway systems were so good. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 03:25:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA04193 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA04170; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id MAA05264; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:01:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from klemm.gtn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id LAA14455; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199704210925.LAA14455@klemm.gtn.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: English translation of german *BSD article in Ct ... we are allowed... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:59:00 +0200." <199704152259.AAA16651@phil.jhs.no_domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:34 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > BTW do you have a machine redable copy of that article, > &/or a scanned image URL etc you could send me ? Hi ! Oh, I think I missed this one ... Here my reply ;-) Well, we are allowed to translate the article into english and to put it onto the FreeBSD WWW Server. Usually they don't give permission, but Jürgen did me the favour. But we have to mention, that Heise Verlag is the company who published it in the April magazine of Ct and we have to give them the translation in html, so that they can put it as well onto their web server. Since I don't have the last revision of the article, you should be willed to translate the stuff and ask Jürgen Kuri for a copy of his last revised version ... Gary Jennejohn possibly wanted to do the work, but I didn't hear something from him ... Perhaps me Mail was lost ??? Perhaps I put a copy of this to FreeBSD-Chat, maybe someone with some extra time could help here ... BTW, Jürgen Kuri's Mail Address is jk@ct.heise.de Andreas /// From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 06:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA13223 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13210 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA09260; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:29:51 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joerg Wunsch CC: FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's rather an exclusive list. To get on the list, you need to submit your own original rant in the Unix Haters Handbook style; if they feel you're worthy, they'll let you on board. For more info, see: http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/analysts/daniel/list.html -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 09:06:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26693 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bellind.com ([206.101.34.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26688 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by firewall.bellind.com via suspension id <17078-2>; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:04:35 -0700 Received: by firewall.bellind.com via suspension id <17062-2>; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:03:35 -0700 Received: from cdcexchange.bellind.com ([170.1.130.2]) by firewall.bellind.com with SMTP id <17063-1>; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:57:00 -0700 Received: by cdcexchange.bellind.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BC4D15.5BDC0890@cdcexchange.bellind.com>; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:59:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: Rudy Gireyev To: "'Nate Williams'" Cc: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:59:37 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am sorry Nate, but you have completely and entirely missed the point. Yes, every operating system used for development does get corrupted. Belive it or not I had to do the same for OS/2 2.1 and 3.0. My comments were directed at your treatment of Dennis upon his original complaint. You were basically telling him that the way he felt was wrong and that he should feel the way you do, which I felt was absurd. The way I see it is there are three levels of FreeBSD users. 1. Recreational - Hack for pleasure 2. As Utility - Back up server, preferred platform, etc 3. Source of Livelihood - Whether I have bread on the table tomorrow depends on FreeBSD Based on your postings I believe you are in group 2 while Dennis is in group 3. There is no way you could possibly know what it is feels like for him, thereby unless you have a usable suggestion for Dennis I did not feel you were even qualified to answer to him on how he is supposed to feel. Anyway, I realize that what I'm saying is mean and obnoxious. But you being a no-bull kinda guy I thought you would want to know when you stumbled into a wrong territory. I'm sorry if I made a mistake. >---------- >From: Nate Williams[SMTP:nate@mt.sri.com] >Sent: Saturday, April 19, 1997 8:13 AM >To: Rudy Gireyev >Cc: 'John S. Dyson'; chat@freebsd.org >Subject: RE: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) > >[ moved to -chat ] > >> With all due respect John, what you say is true, however >> it does not invalidate what Tony said about Nate. Basically >> Nate is talking about something he has no idea about >> (something he flames Terry for). > >Umm, you're saying I don't understand that I'm forced to re-install >Win95 on a regular basis, and that most of the people I know that have >used any M$ OS with the name 'Windows' on it consider re-installing on >a >regular basis 'normal'? > >Glad you can speak for me, since I obviously made it all up, and have >no >experience with M$ OS's. (Obviously much less than Terry, and my being >a >M$-Professional Level development subscription for the last 3 years >must >be a figment of my imagination, though I think the $1K/year my company >spends for it and Win32 development tools isn't a figment.) > >Sheesh, maybe suicide would be a way out for you. > > > >Nate > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 09:15:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27505 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27496 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dolphin.inna.net (jamie@dolphin.inna.net [206.151.66.2]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA13881; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:27:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: dennis cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419160450.00b59990@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wish I had a customer list to forward this to, I am sure they would love it. They may not always know what they want, but they are always right. Your job is to change their idea of wright. On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 08:38 PM 4/19/97 +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: > >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> <<<< Snipped loads of stuff out of here >>> > >> SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want > >> to > >> use the result? > > > >Mmm, SDL do sell very similar cards, when I was looking for a serial card > >for our E1 line here, I tried out both etinc and sdl... > >Frankly the folks answering the phone at etinc made me call sdl again, > >even though someone had said etinc made better kit. > > > >So, I have a SDL WANic here, it's much the same as the etinc version and > >yes I'd be prepared now to use the SDL frame relay card when it comes out > >above the etinc one. > > > >This is because SDL seem to understand that the customer is always right, > >and etinc (and you) seem much more prepared to argue with the customer. > > > >So, yes, I'll use the result, and I know that even if it doesn't work SDL > >will be helpful when I ring up and ask why it broke. > > Ah, but the customer isnt always right...... > > db > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 09:26:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28171 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28164; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA20239; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:26:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: "Julian H. Stacey" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English translation of german *BSD article in Ct ... we are allowed... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:34 +0200." <199704210925.LAA14455@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:26:36 -0700 Message-ID: <20237.861639996@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Since I don't have the last revision of the article, you should be > willed to translate the stuff and ask Jürgen Kuri for a copy of > his last revised version ... Not me! ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 09:43:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29099 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (ppp040-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29090; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA24288; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199704211643.JAA24288@superior.mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: from Snob Art Genre at "Apr 21, 97 00:57:42 am" To: ben@narcissus.ml.org (Snob Art Genre) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mallison@konnections.com, ian@ian.broken.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, scrappy@hub.org, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > >> I don't know Ian, I know it worked great everywhere I've lived in >> England (mostly in the North) Beats the hell out of driving and paying >> for your own car. Vancouver had a good system, as does Seattle. >> >> In America people refer to it as "The Shame Train". You take the bus >> 'cause you can't afford a car. No one would understand that the >> train/bus can be easier and more relaxing....They also don't understand >> that normal people ride the bus.... >> >> -Mike >> > >Not always -- growing up in New York, I never learned to drive, because >the bus and subway systems were so good. > > Agree. The mass transit system in NYC is the best in America which is'nt saying much. Growing up in Lower Manhatten I did'nt drive until I was almost 20. My father did'nt own a car until I was 17. Only the truely insane drive into midtown Manhatten during during the week. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@sirius.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 10:01:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00518 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00497 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA00279; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970421125923.00af9250@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:59:25 -0400 To: Jamie Bowden From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The origin of the "customer is always right" is the newbie salesman learning a lesson about how to make a sale. The problem is that "making a sale" is not the only goal...and making sales to customers that are likely to be unhappy (because they dont really know what they need) is not productive or profitable. When someone starts telling me they want to connect their async port to an eia-530 port on a csu , or when they say they wont buy without source or that they MUST have credit even though they have no credibilty, it time to get off the phone. One guy called angrily for 2 weeks (trying to get my superior) because he wanted a T3 board for Linux, and I told him that we probably wouldnt support linux because I didnt think it could handle it.....who wants this moron as a customer? db At 12:27 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >I wish I had a customer list to forward this to, I am sure they would >love it. They may not always know what they want, but they are always >right. Your job is to change their idea of wright. > >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> At 08:38 PM 4/19/97 +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: >> >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: >> >> <<<< Snipped loads of stuff out of here >>> >> >> SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want >> >> to >> >> use the result? >> > >> >Mmm, SDL do sell very similar cards, when I was looking for a serial card >> >for our E1 line here, I tried out both etinc and sdl... >> >Frankly the folks answering the phone at etinc made me call sdl again, >> >even though someone had said etinc made better kit. >> > >> >So, I have a SDL WANic here, it's much the same as the etinc version and >> >yes I'd be prepared now to use the SDL frame relay card when it comes out >> >above the etinc one. >> > >> >This is because SDL seem to understand that the customer is always right, >> >and etinc (and you) seem much more prepared to argue with the customer. >> > >> >So, yes, I'll use the result, and I know that even if it doesn't work SDL >> >will be helpful when I ring up and ask why it broke. >> >> Ah, but the customer isnt always right...... >> >> db >> > >Jamie Bowden > >Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 11:20:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04426 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04421 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA29098; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:49 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24120; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:04:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970421200455.HG64513@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:04:55 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: crlawson@curie.dialix.com.au (craig) Subject: Re: I AM JUST GETTING INTO HACKING AND I NEED HELP References: <01bc4e28$6456cdc0$32010ccb@default> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <01bc4e28$6456cdc0$32010ccb@default>; from craig on Apr 21, 1997 07:47:27 +0000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As craig wrote: > Hi, if you can help me learn how to hack please e-mail me. Well, it's that easy: just sit down in front of your computer, put your fingers on the keyboard, and start hacking. Ya'know, that's this nasty sound coming out of the keyboard at 20 keys per second. :-) Ah, you mean `cracking'? Sorry, wrong list. (Wrong list anyway, not technically related to FreeBSD development, thus moved to -chat.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 11:23:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04580 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04573 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dolphin.inna.net (jamie@dolphin.inna.net [206.151.66.2]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28643; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: Unix-haters In-Reply-To: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: I'll dig out my copy of 'The Unix Haters Handbook' when I get home and mail it to you. > Does anybody have the address of the unix-haters list? > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 11:26:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04806 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04781 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA29178 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:26:23 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24102; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:57:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970421195734.SV15220@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:57:34 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov>; from Sean Kelly on Apr 21, 1997 07:29:51 -0600 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sean Kelly wrote: > That's rather an exclusive list. To get on the list, you need to submit > your own original rant in the Unix Haters Handbook style; if they feel > you're worthy, they'll let you on board. Too bad :), i'm afraid i'm unable to write such a `resume'. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 11:26:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04843 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from croute.com (ishm2.croute.com [199.97.106.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04822 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bldg1.croute.com by croute.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12516; Mon, 21 Apr 97 13:26:23 CDT Received: from COMPUROUTE/SpoolDir by bldg1.croute.com (Mercury 1.31); 21 Apr 97 13:26:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from SpoolDir by COMPUROUTE (Mercury 1.31); 21 Apr 97 13:26:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Larry Dolinar" Organization: CompuRoute, Inc. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:26:03 -0600 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever yo X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Larry Dolinar" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal In-Reply-To: <199704201247.PAA14424@shadows.aeon.net> References: <199704191817.LAA23491@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Apr 19, 97 11:17:24 am" X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <106F6A58D7@bldg1.croute.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And the clouds parted on 20 Apr 97, and mika ruohotie said: >> As an aside, if Linux networking had been usable at the time 386BSD came >> out, I would now be running linux, not freebsd. (And, frankly, if certain >> persons had not been running the netbsd systems, there's a good chance I'd >> be working with *that*. Don't you all feel special now? :)) > >dont you feel like scared at all? =) > >i would... > Likewise, but face it: there are a lot of people running around that will probably follow whatever's out, regardless of philosophy. This approach isn't limited to OS's either, based on what I see in the news. cheers, larry From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 11:41:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05935 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05922; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704211840.LAA05922@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Unix-haters To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Apr 21, 97 07:29:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly wrote: > > That's rather an exclusive list. To get on the list, you need to submit > your own original rant in the Unix Haters Handbook style; if they feel > you're worthy, they'll let you on board. > > For more info, see: > > http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/analysts/daniel/list.html From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 12:33:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08898 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08890 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA00254 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:33:24 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24335; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:02:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970421210217.QE00610@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:02:17 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Apr 21, 1997 14:35:57 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jamie Bowden wrote: > I'll dig out my copy of 'The Unix Haters Handbook' when I get home and > mail it to you. I was surprised to not find the actual address inside the book. But Sean's mail clarified it, i think. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 12:36:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09097 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09085 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id VAA13181 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:15:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id UAA00799; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:01:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970421200100.14683@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:01:00 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English translation of german *BSD article in Ct ... we are allowed... References: <199704210925.LAA14455@klemm.gtn.com> <20237.861639996@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <20237.861639996@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:26:36AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:26:36AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Since I don't have the last revision of the article, you should be > > willed to translate the stuff and ask Jürgen Kuri for a copy of > > his last revised version ... > > Not me! ;-) Nur 10 Seiten für einen guten Zweck ;-)) BTW: Everybody who is capable of reading and understanding this a good candidate to do the job ;-)) But not me ;-)) Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 12:42:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09450 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09436 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA21310; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:41:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: steve@visint.co.uk, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:04:28 PDT." <199704190004.RAA03453@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:41:24 -0700 Message-ID: <21307.861651684@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmmm. I know the vice president in charge of the UNIX products division; > we went bar-diving with the Australian Navy at Uniforum in Lessee, San > Francisco in 90 (91? I can't remember which one was in DC). I'll ask; > are you sure you've been dealing with the UNIX Products Division, or have I'm not sure - I don't do distributor relations. I can ask though. Jordan > > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 12:44:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09562 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09554 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09646; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:43:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335BC370.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:43:44 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <199704211840.LAA05922@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Mr Bresler might be commenting on the unusually dry tone in my message, but if it's on the topic of Unix Haters, I encourage you not to take his tired reaction to heart. I recommend _The Unix Haters Handbook_ (IDG Books 1994, ISBN 1-56884-203-1) by Garfinkel et al. to even the most ardent Unix aficionados. It's a great read, and filled with humor. But it also has hundreds of valid points of where Unix is screwed up. If anything, it serves as a specification of what to fix in future versions, or what not to do if you happen to be writing a new OS from scratch. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 13:01:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10465 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10458 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA00698 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:01:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24597; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:56:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970421215653.KJ25438@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:56:53 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <199704211840.LAA05922@freefall.freebsd.org> <335BC370.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <335BC370.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov>; from Sean Kelly on Apr 21, 1997 13:43:44 -0600 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sean Kelly wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > Mr Bresler might be commenting on the unusually dry tone in my message, I rather thought this `comment' was related to the mickeysoft address. > I recommend _The Unix Haters Handbook_ (IDG Books 1994, ISBN > 1-56884-203-1) by Garfinkel et al. to even the most ardent Unix > aficionados. It's a great read, and filled with humor. But it also has > hundreds of valid points of where Unix is screwed up. If anything, it > serves as a specification of what to fix in future versions, or what not > to do if you happen to be writing a new OS from scratch. That was exactly my point of interest in their mailing list. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 13:18:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11213 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11204 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id WAA16240 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:00:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id VAA00654; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:54:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970421215402.09394@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:54:02 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov>; from Sean Kelly on Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 07:29:51AM -0600 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 07:29:51AM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > That's rather an exclusive list. To get on the list, you need to submit > your own original rant in the Unix Haters Handbook style; if they feel > you're worthy, they'll let you on board. > > For more info, see: > > http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/analysts/daniel/list.html Oh my goodness, what's that for a ,club' ?! ;-) Is it ironically meant or doe the guys there really have the feeling of being sucked by life, aeehh Unix ?! ;-) And Jörg, what do you want from this list ? ;-)) Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 13:23:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11427 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11422 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA21630; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:57 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Kelly cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix-haters In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:43:44 MDT." <335BC370.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:57 -0700 Message-ID: <21628.861654177@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I recommend _The Unix Haters Handbook_ (IDG Books 1994, ISBN > 1-56884-203-1) by Garfinkel et al. to even the most ardent Unix > aficionados. It's a great read, and filled with humor. But it also has Actually, I found it both dull and rather lacking in the humor department. :-) It made a few good points, but elsewhere it seemed to be _trying_ so damn hard to come up with legitimate grievances that the whole attempt just sort of fell flat for me. I expect my pointed satires to be done with a little more wit and finesse' before I'll award them good marks and Mark Twain this guy isn't. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 13:45:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13006 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12992; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704212045.NAA12992@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Unix-haters To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <335BC370.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Apr 21, 97 01:43:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > Mr Bresler might be commenting on the unusually dry tone in my message, > but if it's on the topic of Unix Haters, I encourage you not to take his > tired reaction to heart. > > I recommend _The Unix Haters Handbook_ (IDG Books 1994, ISBN > 1-56884-203-1) by Garfinkel et al. to even the most ardent Unix > aficionados. It's a great read, and filled with humor. But it also has > hundreds of valid points of where Unix is screwed up. If anything, it > serves as a specification of what to fix in future versions, or what not > to do if you happen to be writing a new OS from scratch. critism from those that use or have used unix enough to understand is valid. sinson grafinkel for instance (one of teh authors. at least his name is on the cover of my copy.) but being hosted at microsoft.com does not impress me. seems raterh transparent. but i may be mistaken just look at my spelling ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 15:18:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17603 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17586 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA14244; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jandrese.async.vt.edu (jandrese.async.vt.edu [128.173.20.208]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26573; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:22:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Andresen X-Sender: jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix-haters In-Reply-To: <199704212045.NAA12992@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: =) critism from those that use or have used unix enough to =) understand is valid. sinson grafinkel for instance (one =) of teh authors. at least his name is on the cover of my =) copy.) but being hosted at microsoft.com does not impress =) me. seems raterh transparent. but i may be mistaken =) just look at my spelling ;) >From reading the introduction on the web page, I had the impression that SG never became aquanted with the ctrl-x-s in Emacs. He also spent extensive time bashing the stability of early Suns running early versions of Emacs. Through the entire intro, I had the feeling that the author was straining to find enough negative points to fill the intro. My final impression was that the book would be good for pointing out some of the fundimental difficulties that new users have, and maybe a few technical problems, but on the whole, the book would be dated and not relevant to the current generation of UN*Xs. IMHO of course. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::. . . . . ..:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Jason Andresen :. . . . . . . . . : Web and FTP server at :: :: jandrese@vt.edu :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:: jandrese.async.vt.edu :: :.........................: Quote of the day :..........................: Johnson's First Law: When any mechanical contrivance fails, it will do so at the most inconvenient possible time. :::::::::::.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.........................:.:.:.:.:.:.:.::::::::::: From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 21 22:12:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14554 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14540; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip213.konnections.com [192.41.71.213]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA21337; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:11:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335DA6B1.501580F2@konnections.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:05:37 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Snob Art Genre CC: Ian Struble , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jack@diamond.xtalwind.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, scrappy@hub.org, dyson@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I meant more the west where cars are the rule. Anyplace with a history of good mass transit is okay. Most of the NE is good with that.... of course, their the ones with the social background. We out west are the decendents of those who couldn't fit in... -Mike Snob Art Genre wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, mike allison wrote: > > > I don't know Ian, I know it worked great everywhere I've lived in > > England (mostly in the North) Beats the hell out of driving and paying > > for your own car. Vancouver had a good system, as does Seattle. > > > > In America people refer to it as "The Shame Train". You take the bus > > 'cause you can't afford a car. No one would understand that the > > train/bus can be easier and more relaxing....They also don't understand > > that normal people ride the bus.... > > > > -Mike > > > > Not always -- growing up in New York, I never learned to drive, because > the bus and subway systems were so good. > > Ben > > "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 11:51:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02532 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02519 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA15884 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:51:00 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28607; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:24:15 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970422202415.WW23013@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:24:15 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <199704212045.NAA12992@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Jason Andresen on Apr 21, 1997 18:22:11 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jason Andresen wrote: > My final impression was that the book would be good for pointing out some > of the fundimental difficulties that new users have, and maybe a few > technical problems, but on the whole, the book would be dated and not > relevant to the current generation of UN*Xs. Well, the fundamental critics on the terminal subsystem still hold valid, albeit it's something that can't be changed that late in the game. Some other of their points are also valid, and are changeable, like the horrid design of the file handling in indent(1). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 11:51:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02564 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02541 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA15885 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:51:04 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28616; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:24:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970422202459.EC20137@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:24:59 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: Unix-haters References: <19970421084629.CZ33642@uriah.heep.sax.de> <335B6BCF.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> <19970421215402.09394@klemm.gtn.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970421215402.09394@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Apr 21, 1997 21:54:02 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andreas Klemm wrote: > And Jörg, what do you want from this list ? ;-)) I'm merely curious, and would hope to get some hints of things that can actually be changed. I could certainly ignore most of their whining. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 12:14:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05750 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (vector.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05683; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wall.jhs.no_domain (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA02544; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:15:14 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199704212215.AAA02544@wall.jhs.no_domain> To: Andreas Klemm cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English translation of german *BSD article in Ct ... we are allowed... From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Email: jhs@freebsd.org, Fallback: jhs@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ X-Company: Vector Systems Ltd, Unix & Internet Consultants. X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Tel: Phone +49.89.268616, Fax +49.89.2608126, Data +49.89.26023276 X-Software: FreeBSD (Unix) + EXMH 1.6.9 (PGP key on web) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:34 +0200." <199704210925.LAA14455@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:15:13 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Andreas Klemm > Subject: Re: English translation of german *BSD article in Ct ... we are allowed... > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:34 +0200 > Message-id: <199704210925.LAA14455@klemm.gtn.com> > > > BTW do you have a machine redable copy of that article, > > &/or a scanned image URL etc you could send me ? > > Hi ! > > Oh, I think I missed this one ... Here my reply ;-) > > Well, we are allowed to translate the article into english and to > put it onto the FreeBSD WWW Server. Usually they don't give permission, > but Jürgen did me the favour. > > But we have to mention, that Heise Verlag is the company who published > it in the April magazine of Ct and we have to give them the translation > in html, so that they can put it as well onto their web server. > > Since I don't have the last revision of the article, you should be > willed to translate the stuff and ask Jürgen Kuri for a copy of > his last revised version ... > > Gary Jennejohn possibly wanted to do the work, but I didn't hear something > from him ... Perhaps me Mail was lost ??? > > Perhaps I put a copy of this to FreeBSD-Chat, maybe someone with > some extra time could help here ... > > BTW, Jürgen Kuri's Mail Address is jk@ct.heise.de > > Andreas /// Sorry, I may not have made myself clear: I was just planing to read it in the German original, but last week I was 1 day too late to buy the April edition, (Heise Verlag dating magazines in advance the annoying way they do). Hence I asked if you had a machine copy. You mentioned the CT web site .. Is it already there in German ? URL ? Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 14:08:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04824 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04786 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id PAA00146; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199704222100.PAA00146@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: jgrosch@sirius.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:15 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704211643.JAA24288@superior.mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Apr 21, 97 09:43:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Agree. The mass transit system in NYC is the best in America which is'nt > saying much. Not really, both the Boston and D.C. systems are better IMHO. You can, however, count on your fingers the number of U.S. cities with working public transportation systems that truly cover the urban area. Even Seattle and Portland (OR) have some gaping holes in their coverage. I think the list probably includes NYC, Boston, D.C., Chicago, and San Francisco. Maybe Atlanta. In case anyone wants to know, this was pretty much a conscious decision made by the Eisenhower administrations; they wanted to build the Interstate highway system and financed it at the cost of pulic transportation. The "intellectual" leader of this transportation revolution was none other than Al Gore Sr. This is where the campaign phrase "information superhighway" came from. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 14:11:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05150 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05142 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id PAA02159; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:10:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199704222110.PAA02159@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Unix-haters To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:10:23 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <21628.861654177@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 21, 97 01:22:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, I found it both dull and rather lacking in the humor > department. :-) It made a few good points, but elsewhere it seemed to > be _trying_ so damn hard to come up with legitimate grievances that > the whole attempt just sort of fell flat for me. I expect my pointed > satires to be done with a little more wit and finesse' before I'll > award them good marks and Mark Twain this guy isn't. :-) I agree. I saw a half-dozen good, qualified rants about parts of UNIX that were poorly done in the first or horribly out of date, interspersed with hundreds of pages of "ls is such a stupid command to do a directory, why can't the just call it dir!" I enjoy pointing out to people that "dir" is a really stupid command when what you really want is a list of files. On OS/32 from InterData, ne Concurrent, the command to list the files in the current work area was, of all things, "list files"! Homer Simpson: Doh! Homer on Dos/Win/VMS: Dir! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 14:25:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06620 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lattice.latte.it (line07.globalnet.it [194.185.53.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06535 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ssigala@localhost) by lattice.latte.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA06329 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:21:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: lattice.latte.it: ssigala owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:21:51 +0200 (CEST) From: S Sigala X-Sender: ssigala@lattice.latte.it To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Announce: UNIX System V simulator version 1.0 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just uudecode the attached file, run with the shell (e.g.: `sh unix386') and enjoy! Warning: if you really want to waste time... ;-) begin 755 unix386 M(R$O8FEN+W-H"B,*(R!4:&4@54Y)6"!3>7-T96T@5B!S:6UU;&%T;W(@=F5R MPH)96-H;R`B(@H)96-H;R`B4VAU='1I;F<@9&]W;B!S>7-T96TN+BXB M"@EE8VAO("(B"@EE8VAO(")4:&4@&ET M(#`*?0H*8F]O=&US9R@I('L*96-H;R`B0F]O=&EN9R!T:&4@54Y)6"!3>7-T M96TN+BXB"@IS;&5E<"`R"@IE8VAO("(B"F5C:&\@(G1O=&%L(')E86P@;65M M;W)Y("`@/2`X,S@X-C`X(@IE8VAO(")T;W1A;"!A=F%I;&%B;&4@;65M(#T@ M-S$R,CDT-"(*96-H;R`B(@IE8VAO(")!5"94(%5.25@@4WES=&5M(%8O,S@V M(%)E;&5A7)I9VAT("AC*2`Q.3@W+#$Y.#@@36EC7-T96US(@IE8VAO("(H8RD@,3DX-RPQ.3@X+#$Y M.#DL,3DY,"!,86-H;6%N($%S7-T M96T@:7,@PIE8VAO("(B"F5C M:&\@(E5.25@@4WES=&5M(%8O,S@V(%)E;&5A7-T M96T@8&AO7)I9VAT("AC*2`Q.3@T+"`Q.3@V M+"`Q.3@W+"`Q.3@X+"`Q.3@Y($%4)E0B"F5C:&\@(D-O<'ER:6=H="`H8RD@ M,3DX-RP@,3DX."!-:6-R;W-O9G0@0V]R<"XB"F5C:&\@(D%L;"!2:6=H=',@ M4F5S97)V960B"G-L965P(#$*96-H;R`B(@IE8VAO(")4:&4@8&AO7-T96T@=VEL;"!B92!D;W=N(&9O7-T96TB M"F5C:&\@(E-Y'!R("1I("L@,6`* M"0EI9B!;("(D:2(@/2`B,2(@73L@=&AE;B!C;60](B1A(CL@9FD*"0EI9B!; M("(D:2(@/2`B,B(@73L@=&AE;B!P87(Q/2(D82([(&9I"@D):68@6R`B)&DB M(#T@(C,B(%T[('1H96X@<&%R,CTB)&$B.R!F:0H)"6EF(%L@(B1I(B`]("(T M(B!=.R!T:&5N('!A"`@=FUU;FEX+F]L9"(*"0D).SL*"0DO8FEN*0H) M"0EE8VAO(")C870J("!C:&UO9"H@(&-S:"H@(&5D*B`@97APB`B)'!A6]U2X@(%1R>2!C;VUP:6QI;F<@ M8F]T:"$B"@D)"0D).SL*"0D)"69O;RYC*0H)"0D)"65C:&\@(FUA:6XH*7MP M7-A9&UI;B$B"@D)"65C:&\@(B(*"0D)96-H;R`B5V5L8V]M92!T;R!T:&4@ M8&AO7-T96TA(@H)"0EE8VAO(")486ME(&$@;&]O:R!A Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10375 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA10361 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA28279; Tue, 22 Apr 97 15:17:12 PDT Received: from PII-Message_Server by pii.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:15:16 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:13:03 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec Troubles. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't know just how well I had it, installing FreeBSD, until I put Solaric 1.1.2 on a Sparc 1+. This stuff (FreeBSD) isn't just great code, its eaaaaaaazy.... I did my first ftp install of 2.2Gamma a few weeks back. Great stuff! Thanks, [RC] Is this current batch of Adaptec trouble, at all caused by Adaptec not working well with the "FreeBSD Movement"? I bought 2.0.5 for its 2940 support, and that system has run non-stop since day one. Good code. I've asked the question before, if bustek/buslogic were good cards, and the answer was no, because they don't release enough developer info. Its too bad NCR, (the ne2000 of the scsi market?), doesn't make a new "superchip" scsi controller. I wouldn't hesitate a second to stop buying adaptec entirely. Same goes for digiboard. Ditto for creative labs. What is it about companies that turn mediocre products into industry mainstays? I guess I shouldn't complain, I mean look at the PC in general, its a bastard child of technology-whores. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 15:52:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13079 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13074 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA19258 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:52:02 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29564; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:38:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970423003839.TY02166@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:38:39 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Announce: UNIX System V simulator version 1.0 References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from S Sigala on Apr 22, 1997 23:21:51 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As S Sigala wrote: > Just uudecode the attached file, run with the shell (e.g.: `sh unix386') > and enjoy! > > Warning: if you really want to waste time... ;-) > > begin 755 unix386 :-)) But, oh well: echo "The system is coming up. Please wait." sleep 2 This must become a ``sleep 30'' to look realistic, to the least! You also fail to simulate the disk rattling while this action was in progress; you should consider replacing that sleep by a: find / -print > /dev/null -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 20:48:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01959 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01947 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip191.konnections.com [192.41.71.191]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA10293; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:47:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:41:29 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC CC: jgrosch@sirius.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704222100.PAA00146@xmission.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes: I have to differ.... The subway system in New York was initiated in the late 1800's and most the others were around long before the 2nd WW and WAY before IKE. The reason we don't have inner city mass transit is that no one uses it in the west. Their too wed to their cars. The east coast is closer and less distance oriented, most things could be had in the neighborhood and the majority of the people were immigrants who had a much more social and socialist background and could appreciate the utility of mass transit. Pre & Post WWII we had a booming interstate train system which fell apart thanks to the highway system... and the ready availability of cheap gasoline... I also believe the term Info Superhiway was around before '92.... could be wrong... -Mike Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > > Agree. The mass transit system in NYC is the best in America which is'nt > > saying much. > > Not really, both the Boston and D.C. systems are better IMHO. You can, > however, count on your fingers the number of U.S. cities with working > public transportation systems that truly cover the urban area. Even > Seattle and Portland (OR) have some gaping holes in their coverage. I > think the list probably includes NYC, Boston, D.C., Chicago, and San > Francisco. Maybe Atlanta. > > In case anyone wants to know, this was pretty much a conscious decision > made by the Eisenhower administrations; they wanted to build the > Interstate highway system and financed it at the cost of pulic > transportation. The "intellectual" leader of this transportation > revolution was none other than Al Gore Sr. This is where the campaign > phrase "information superhighway" came from. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 22 22:30:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07655 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07648 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02442; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704230529.WAA02442@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: mike allison cc: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC , jgrosch@sirius.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:41:29 PDT." <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:29:37 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, In the West Coast, we our sad state of public transport to Ford 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of mike allison : > Wes: > > I have to differ.... > > The subway system in New York was initiated in the late 1800's and most > the others were around long before the 2nd WW and WAY before IKE. The > reason we don't have inner city mass transit is that no one uses it in > the west. Their too wed to their cars. The east coast is closer and > less distance oriented, most things could be had in the neighborhood and > the majority of the people were immigrants who had a much more social > and socialist background and could appreciate the utility of mass > transit. > > Pre & Post WWII we had a booming interstate train system which fell > apart thanks to the highway system... and the ready availability of > cheap gasoline... > > I also believe the term Info Superhiway was around before '92.... could > be wrong... > > -Mike > > Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > > > > Agree. The mass transit system in NYC is the best in America which is'nt > > > saying much. > > > > Not really, both the Boston and D.C. systems are better IMHO. You can, > > however, count on your fingers the number of U.S. cities with working > > public transportation systems that truly cover the urban area. Even > > Seattle and Portland (OR) have some gaping holes in their coverage. I > > think the list probably includes NYC, Boston, D.C., Chicago, and San > > Francisco. Maybe Atlanta. > > > > In case anyone wants to know, this was pretty much a conscious decision > > made by the Eisenhower administrations; they wanted to build the > > Interstate highway system and financed it at the cost of pulic > > transportation. The "intellectual" leader of this transportation > > revolution was none other than Al Gore Sr. This is where the campaign > > phrase "information superhighway" came from. > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr L LC > > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.c om From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 23 02:28:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19009 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamby1 (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA19004 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id CAA00521; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:28:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:28:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Announce: UNIX System V simulator version 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19970423003839.TY02166@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I should note that the System V simulator doesn't actually work under System V. :) Well, under Solaris, you can use /usr/ucb/echo instead of /usr/bin/echo, and change "hostname -s" to "hostname", and then it works. If I was bored, I'd change the echo statements to make it a Solaris simulator. Then you'd need a "sleep 60" at least. :) Cheers, Jake On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As S Sigala wrote: > > > Just uudecode the attached file, run with the shell (e.g.: `sh unix386') > > and enjoy! > > > > Warning: if you really want to waste time... ;-) > > > > begin 755 unix386 > > :-)) > > But, oh well: > > echo "The system is coming up. Please wait." > > sleep 2 > > > This must become a ``sleep 30'' to look realistic, to the least! You > also fail to simulate the disk rattling while this action was in > progress; you should consider replacing that sleep by a: > > find / -print > /dev/null > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 23 05:14:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26844 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26839 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip191.konnections.com [192.41.71.191]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id GAA13539; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:12:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <335F5B09.133F1FB8@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:07:21 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jake Hamby CC: Joerg Wunsch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Announce: UNIX System V simulator version 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It works under System 7, but the system refuses to run it..... : -} -mike Jake Hamby wrote: > > I should note that the System V simulator doesn't actually work under > System V. :) Well, under Solaris, you can use /usr/ucb/echo instead of > /usr/bin/echo, and change "hostname -s" to "hostname", and then it works. > > If I was bored, I'd change the echo statements to make it a Solaris > simulator. Then you'd need a "sleep 60" at least. :) > > Cheers, > Jake > > On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > > As S Sigala wrote: > > > > > Just uudecode the attached file, run with the shell (e.g.: `sh unix386') > > > and enjoy! > > > > > > Warning: if you really want to waste time... ;-) > > > > > > begin 755 unix386 > > > > :-)) > > > > But, oh well: > > > > echo "The system is coming up. Please wait." > > > > sleep 2 > > > > > > This must become a ``sleep 30'' to look realistic, to the least! You > > also fail to simulate the disk rattling while this action was in > > progress; you should consider replacing that sleep by a: > > > > find / -print > /dev/null > > > > -- > > cheers, J"org > > > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 23 11:21:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA14655 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14640 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA00855; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:21:10 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03476; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:14:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970423201428.PX40071@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:14:28 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Subject: Re: MailBomb References: <64BC2B683B@cyberlib.itb.ac.id.> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Apr 23, 1997 07:16:51 -0600 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Warner Losh wrote: > : Does anybody know how to make a good mailbomb? I want to know how > : this thing really works!!! > > First, you go down to your local lumber yard and get about 3' of 2" > iron pipe... This reminds me a picture in a humorous newspaper here: Two postmen talking, while walking along the street. In the background, a building crashed, apparently due to an explosion. One of the postmen to the other: ``Has this been your last mailbomb for today?'' -- ``No, i've still got one for the Bismarckstrasse.'' :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 23 23:51:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA19932 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA19926 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA09342 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:51:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07042; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:30:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970424083046.AR62300@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:30:46 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/netstart bogons.. References: <199704240129.LAA22210@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704240129.LAA22210@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>; from David Nugent on Apr 24, 1997 11:29:15 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Nugent wrote: > Runlevel issues aside, I've found the SysV approach no simpler > than BSD - in fact, the exact opposite. Since you've given > Solaris ("Symlink City") as an example, I can't guess why you'd > find it easier. Yuck! Talk about ``Symlink City'': have a look at SC0. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 06:31:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA15157 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15152 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12854; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:30:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: John Polstra cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the deal with cc? *CRAP* In-Reply-To: <199704250510.WAA00816@austin.polstra.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, John Polstra wrote: > In article <199704222220.PAA27567@phaeton.artisoft.com>, > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > in it. See the cvsup manpage section on refuse files. > > > > > > Well, the man page is not bvery useful, > > It's true, the section on the refuse files needs some fleshing out > and some examples. But hey, given that you're the guy who can > churn out thousands of words a day here in these lists, why don't > you write something up and send it to me? ;-) Just as a small footnote, last time I re-indexed the freebsd-hackers mailing list, "terry" and "lambert" gained stopword status. [For people not familiar with text databases, that means the word occurs so frequently it ceases to be useful in a query to discriminate between documents. Now, I should also qualify that the automatic stopword handling in freewais-sf is bogus because when something becomes a stopword should be keyed to the total number of documents in the databes, but freewais-sf had a hardwired threshold of 20,000 occurances. I have since boosted that limit to a more reasonable level for the size of the mailing list so Terry is no longer a stopword. But still, 20,000 occurances in the hackers list alone is an accomplishment!] -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 10:33:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29057 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29050 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA03689; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:28:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704251728.KAA03689@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: What's the deal with cc? *CRAP* To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:28:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Apr 25, 97 08:30:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > in it. See the cvsup manpage section on refuse files. > > > > > > > > Well, the man page is not bvery useful, > > > > It's true, the section on the refuse files needs some fleshing out > > and some examples. But hey, given that you're the guy who can > > churn out thousands of words a day here in these lists, why don't > > you write something up and send it to me? ;-) > > Just as a small footnote, last time I re-indexed the > freebsd-hackers mailing list, "terry" and "lambert" gained > stopword status. Oh well... > [For people not familiar with text databases, that means the word > occurs so frequently it ceases to be useful in a query to > discriminate between documents. Now, I should also qualify that > the automatic stopword handling in freewais-sf is bogus because > when something becomes a stopword should be keyed to the total > number of documents in the databes, but freewais-sf had a > hardwired threshold of 20,000 occurances. I have since boosted > that limit to a more reasonable level for the size of the mailing > list so Terry is no longer a stopword. But still, 20,000 > occurances in the hackers list alone is an accomplishment!] Is this for document source, only, or is this for all occurances? The numbers were artifically inflated by the occurance of my name in "Subject:" lines and text body (my signature, unnecessary quotes of my signature, "Terry Lambert writes:" and similar citations, etc.), if the latter. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 12:31:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06588 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06583 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip201.konnections.com [192.41.71.201]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA17055; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:30:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <336264B1.4AD4F7E5@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:25:21 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SIIG scsi cards... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone ever heard of this SIIG group? Their cards and stuff are all over the retail shops and seem tailored for OSs we don't like to talk about. All of the chips on the cards are sealed over with their logo, so I can't tell what (if anything) they're compatible with. Also, there's no clue on the drivers, although I haven't taken the .sys apart yet. Anyone know what they might be compatible with, or if they are at all? Anyone else use any of them? Thanks, -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 16:48:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20849 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20839 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10509; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704252347.QAA10509@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: John Fieber cc: John Polstra , terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the deal with cc? *CRAP* In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:30:15 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:47:48 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Actually, Terry has an army of hackers at the other end all using his name 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of John Fieber : > On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, John Polstra wrote: > > > In article <199704222220.PAA27567@phaeton.artisoft.com>, > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > in it. See the cvsup manpage section on refuse files. > > > > > > > > Well, the man page is not bvery useful, > > > > It's true, the section on the refuse files needs some fleshing out > > and some examples. But hey, given that you're the guy who can > > churn out thousands of words a day here in these lists, why don't > > you write something up and send it to me? ;-) > > Just as a small footnote, last time I re-indexed the > freebsd-hackers mailing list, "terry" and "lambert" gained > stopword status. > > [For people not familiar with text databases, that means the word > occurs so frequently it ceases to be useful in a query to > discriminate between documents. Now, I should also qualify that > the automatic stopword handling in freewais-sf is bogus because > when something becomes a stopword should be keyed to the total > number of documents in the databes, but freewais-sf had a > hardwired threshold of 20,000 occurances. I have since boosted > that limit to a more reasonable level for the size of the mailing > list so Terry is no longer a stopword. But still, 20,000 > occurances in the hackers list alone is an accomplishment!] > > -john > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 19:31:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00300 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00293 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id TAA25611 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA13305; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704260125.TAA13305@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: mike allison CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Information Superhighway, etc. (was: Price of FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> References: <199704222100.PAA00146@xmission.xmission.com> <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison writes: > I have to differ.... > > The subway system in New York was initiated in the late 1800's and most > the others were around long before the 2nd WW and WAY before IKE. The No, I meant to say that the Eisenhower administration made the decision to build the interstate highway system and let mass transit rot. This is why the longest of all US "Interstate" highways is named for Eisenhower. (Ten net-dollar bonus if you can tell me which I-x0 is the Eisenhower; the only place I've ever seen it mentioned on a sign is in Santa Monica, CA.) > reason we don't have inner city mass transit is that no one uses it in > the west. Their too wed to their cars. The east coast is closer and > less distance oriented, most things could be had in the neighborhood and > the majority of the people were immigrants who had a much more social > and socialist background and could appreciate the utility of mass > transit. Yes, having lived in a village in Rhode Island where you could walk the village from end to end in 20 minutes, I'm well aware of the differences between eastern and western towns. What you fail to realized is that the U.S. didn't have suburbs until the 1950s. In fact, the world "suburb" was coined by... the Eisenhower administration! The idea of building miles and miles of houses with no public facilities had been played with in the USA and elsewhere, but never achieved workability until the highway building boom, and the associated "city planning", of the 1950s. (Aside: a very astute friend once described L.A. as "a thousand suburbs in search of an urb. ;^) Since most of the habitable (and much of the inhabitable) land in the eastern U.S. had already been settled by this time, they have suffered far less from sprawling suburbanization than western cities. The growing traffic and air pollution problems in formerly "pristine" western cities such as Denver, Phoenix, and our own beloved Salt Lake City is the result of these short-sighted policies. > Pre & Post WWII we had a booming interstate train system which fell > apart thanks to the highway system... and the ready availability of > cheap gasoline... And the federal subsidy of highway building, followed by the removal of federal subsidies to the railroads, followed by deregulation of interstate trucking, etc. Every time I see one of those signs on the back of a big truck saying "this truck pays $972 in annual highway taxes I see red, since each of those trucks causes annual wear and tear to the highways many *times* that amount. The remainder, of course, is paid out of *my* tax dollars. Not to mention the number of people killed by trucks weighing in excess of 100,000 lbs barrelling through our cities at 70 mph driven by zombies who have been at the wheel in excess of 30 hours without sleep... And now, for the one remaining tenuous tie-in to freebsd-chat: ;^) > I also believe the term Info Superhiway was around before '92.... could > be wrong... It was coined as part of then-Senator Gores proposal for the "National Information Infrastructure," introduced by Sen. Gore in the Senate in (I think) late 1990. I don't know the derivation of the term "infobahn", but it followed soon after, and was originally used derisively. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 20:09:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01141 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01136 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip201.konnections.com [192.41.71.201]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA23716; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3362CD1F.701E1FA0@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:50:55 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Information Superhighway, etc. (was: Price of FreeBSD) References: <199704222100.PAA00146@xmission.xmission.com> <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> <199704260125.TAA13305@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters wrote: > > > No, I meant to say that the Eisenhower administration made the decision > to build the interstate highway system and let mass transit rot. This > is why the longest of all US "Interstate" highways is named for > Eisenhower. (Ten net-dollar bonus if you can tell me which I-x0 is the > Eisenhower; the only place I've ever seen it mentioned on a sign is in > Santa Monica, CA.) I'm well aware of what you meant. What I meant was that the tie between mas inner-city transit and the federal highway system is too tenuous since central mass transit was well in place by the beginning of the century. Most of the Freeway system isn't really part of the Eisenhower system. There's a map out in the desert describing the whole thing, I can't remember if it's out by Wendover, or just in the recesses of my imagination, that talks about the system and how it was started. It had to do with Eisenhower's concern that you couldn't drive a military convoy across the country, or that the roads we're not in equal (dis) repair nationwide. Remember too that there wasn't much commercial air travel at the time either. I had some more to say, but I can't remember what the hell we were even talking about ... : -} > > Since most of the habitable (and much of the inhabitable) land in the > eastern U.S. had already been settled by this time, they have suffered > far less from sprawling suburbanization than western cities. The > growing traffic and air pollution problems in formerly "pristine" > western cities such as Denver, Phoenix, and our own beloved Salt Lake > City is the result of these short-sighted policies. Salt Lake City hasn't had a far sighted planner since Brigham Young, and he had some questionable ideas, as well..... > > I also believe the term Info Superhiway was around before '92.... could > > be wrong... > > It was coined as part of then-Senator Gores proposal for the "National > Information Infrastructure," introduced by Sen. Gore in the Senate in (I > think) late 1990. I don't know the derivation of the term "infobahn", > but it followed soon after, and was originally used derisively. I really wanted to say that that term was independent of Al Gore, but the more I thought about it, the more it came to me that it was an early nineties thing and could have been Gore. Seems a bit too colourful a term for Our Man Al...... Now what are we going to talk about? -mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 20:54:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02640 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02623 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial2-7.cybercom.net [206.28.134.71]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00317; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970426035453.006f3a78@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:54:53 -0400 To: mike allison , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: SIIG scsi cards... Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:25 PM 4/26/97 -0700, mike allison wrote: >Anyone ever heard of this SIIG group? Their cards and stuff are all >over the retail shops and seem tailored for OSs we don't like to talk >about. All of the chips on the cards are sealed over with their logo, >so I can't tell what (if anything) they're compatible with. Also, >there's no clue on the drivers, although I haven't taken the .sys apart >yet. > >Anyone know what they might be compatible with, or if they are at all? > >Anyone else use any of them? > I've considered buying one, but I too am wondering about compatibility issues. I talked with a man in a computer store who told me that his worked great, but he was running Windows. Their box claims that they support OS/2 and some Unix systems, and many of their other cards (video, serial, etc.) tend to use chips from more well-known manufacturers, so it might not be a total risk to take a look at one. Oddly, their web page gives little or no practical information. If you do decide to go that route, let me know how it works for you. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 25 21:02:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03029 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03022 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle (root@ip201.konnections.com [192.41.71.201]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA24319; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:01:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3362DC39.5A182D5D@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:55:21 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SIIG scsi cards... References: <1.5.4.32.19970426035453.006f3a78@cybercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk K: Well, I have one in my hand (My compaq, actually) and, they're right, I could probably get windows up and running. It recognised my NEC CDROM and my Fireball, but FreeBSD, RedHat Linux, and Slackware couldn't recognise it in autoprobe mode, nor be their list of H/W compatible cards. I tried all (I think) of the autoprobe choices to no avail. The problem is, I can't get to the chip surface to find which chips they use, since everything's covered with logo. The price is right, but I think a discount AHA would be a better deal..... -Mike The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > At 01:25 PM 4/26/97 -0700, mike allison wrote: > >Anyone ever heard of this SIIG group? Their cards and stuff are all > >over the retail shops and seem tailored for OSs we don't like to talk > >about. All of the chips on the cards are sealed over with their logo, > >so I can't tell what (if anything) they're compatible with. Also, > >there's no clue on the drivers, although I haven't taken the .sys apart > >yet. > > > >Anyone know what they might be compatible with, or if they are at all? > > > >Anyone else use any of them? > > > > I've considered buying one, but I too am wondering about compatibility > issues. I talked with a man in a computer store who told me that his worked > great, but he was running Windows. Their box claims that they support OS/2 > and some Unix systems, and many of their other cards (video, serial, etc.) > tend to use chips from more well-known manufacturers, so it might not be a > total risk to take a look at one. Oddly, their web page gives little or no > practical information. > > If you do decide to go that route, let me know how it works for you. > > K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 26 01:47:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12227 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (ppp011-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12220 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA22977; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:47:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199704260847.BAA22977@superior.mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: Information Superhighway, etc. (was: Price of FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <199704260125.TAA13305@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Apr 25, 97 07:25:05 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mallison@konnections.com, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters said: >mike allison writes: > > I have to differ.... > > > > The subway system in New York was initiated in the late 1800's and most > > the others were around long before the 2nd WW and WAY before IKE. The > >No, I meant to say that the Eisenhower administration made the decision >to build the interstate highway system and let mass transit rot. This >is why the longest of all US "Interstate" highways is named for >Eisenhower. (Ten net-dollar bonus if you can tell me which I-x0 is the >Eisenhower; the only place I've ever seen it mentioned on a sign is in >Santa Monica, CA.) > [ DELETED ] The Dwight D. Eisenhower Expressway, or The Eisenhower as it is known in Chicago is Interstate 290. I have had the displeasure of spending uncounted hours of my life sitting on The Eisenhower studing the bumper stickers of the guy in front of me while crawling home at 5 mph. Josef "Give me mass transit or give me death" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@sirius.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 26 05:20:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20619 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 05:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA20608 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 05:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA14543 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:20:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04493; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:03:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970426140330.VT41085@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:03:30 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Information Superhighway, etc. (was: Price of FreeBSD) References: <199704222100.PAA00146@xmission.xmission.com> <335EE479.482AB1F2@konnections.com> <199704260125.TAA13305@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704260125.TAA13305@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Apr 25, 1997 19:25:05 -0600 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wes Peters wrote: > It was coined as part of then-Senator Gores proposal for the "National > Information Infrastructure," introduced by Sen. Gore in the Senate in (I > think) late 1990. I don't know the derivation of the term "infobahn", > but it followed soon after, and was originally used derisively. I think you've imported it from us. Remember, our ``interstates'' are called ,,Autobahn'' (and have something like a similar deadly effect as the use of guns in the US, due to the car and petroleum industry blocking a speed limit), this made the information highway into an infobahn for German horror journalists. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)