From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 03:22:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00395 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00390 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id GAA05533 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:22:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: text to speach for blind programmer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's late and I cannot for the life of me remember who was looking for something like this. But I stumbled across a package free for non commercial use that allows text to speech. You might want to check this out. Maybe it can be of use. http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/comp.speech/Section5/Synth/festival.html Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 03:55:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01097 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01091 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03455; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708311055.DAA03455@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Open Systems Networking cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: text to speach for blind programmer In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:22:44 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:55:30 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeap, Festival is cool and it was developed on FreeBSD 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Open Systems Networking : > > It's late and I cannot for the life of me remember who was looking for > something like this. But I stumbled across a package free for non > commercial use that allows text to speech. > You might want to check this out. Maybe it can be of use. > > http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/comp.speech/Section5/Synth/festival.html > > Chris > > -- > > ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 > -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te > gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC > foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z > d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb > NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv > CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 > b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= > =BBjp > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 13:42:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17762 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17749 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 2395 on Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:42:38 GMT; id UAA02395 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00511; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:12:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970831221230.08862@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:12:30 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think John Fieber made some comments that I can only agree with. Wes Peters did so too. Please read their messages for more details. (This of course has nothing to do with them at least partially agreeing with me. :) ) The point I was trying to make, is not whether NT is better or Unix is. I know ftp.com is the busiest server in the world. I know that FreeBSD usually performs better on the same platform. The discussion has turned into a "why X is better than Y" and you're bound to lose that on a FreeBSD mailing list. Perhaps I should say that I really want an Amiga, but then with a 500 Mhz Alpha chip. The Amiga had a pre-emptive multitasking OS that ran in 256 Kb. Though some parts were a bit clumsy, the base was very good. The basic type was a Node (ordered in a List), from which you could derive (yes, object-orientation in C) a Task, a Library, a Device or any system structure. The GUI was good and getting better, so was the shell. ARexx was the third interface. This altogether made a system that, as I think of it, was better than Unix (despite it's excellent shell) or Windows 95/NT 4.0 (despite it's GUI). The fact that not all applications supported all functions of the system, doesn't make the system less powerfull. The Amiga has some functions that I really really miss in other OS's. Writing your own installer application in some sort of Lisp-like language - no need for InstallShield. Assigning logical names to devices, directories or drives. Installing new devices or filesystems while the system was running. But the market has been divided. You basically have MS, the Mac, some Unixes and dedicated OS's, like real-time OS's (but they are a niche market anyway). At the moment, a Unix server (probably any Unix server) is more suited for something like an Internet-server than an NT server, be it for mail, news, ftp or http. Trouble is, most non-Intel platforms will be having a hard time to survive, simply because of the tremendous costs to build a new plant. Intel is somewhat the Microsoft of the hardware world: they could have released the Pentium II months earlier, but there simply was no need. Alpha is your best bet in processor architectures, as it comes to who survives Intel the longest. What company can put own $1,000,000,000 for a new processor? As about GUI's, opinions differ and probably will be differing for quite some time. In my view, a GUI is not something that you should be able to configure to the max, it's a way of representing data in a consistent way to the user. The book I read was the Amiga User Interface Style Guide. Yes, there's a lot of psychology behind it as well. That's something very difficult for a programmer. I also have the opinion that a computer should be easy to use. Look, for instance, at an ATM. In the Netherlands, you put in your card, type your secret code, select the amount of money, take your card, take your money. In Belgium, you choose the amount of money _before_ you enter your secret code. In the States, you get your money before you get your card back - so Dutch people tend to forget their card. Personally, I think the Dutch version is the most logical sequence to get money from a machine. If you link it to personal computers, probably the easiest to use is a Windows machine. I have told people how to configure dial-up networking over the phone, people who didn't even know how to move a window. It just wouldn't have been possible with a Unix machine. The Mac is even more easy to use, but it has other problems. So, if you limit yourself to an environment that basically text- oriented, you put yourself in a pretty small market. And you can't provide the coupling to those popular applications that come from Redmond, WA. And despite Motif and CDE, they aren't standard like the prescribed standard of MS is. If I look at FreeBSD, even sysinstall has it quirks. I always end up pressing the wrong buttons and that's because the buttons (and keys) keep changing functions. The "Cancel" button changes into an "Install" button all of a sudden. Basically, that's what I want to say. I also realize that making a good GUI is very difficult and takes tremendous resources. It should be done with the other free Unixes, it's too big for just FreeBSD. But I think that the hack-heads who do everything from a tty and who have a lot of influence on the development of FreeBSD, should consider the world outside who's in need of GUI's. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 14:20:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18949 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18944 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01532; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708312119.OAA01532@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:12:30 +0200." <19970831221230.08862@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:19:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Peter Korsten : > But I think that the hack-heads who do everything from a tty and > who have a lot of influence on the development of FreeBSD, should > consider the world outside who's in need of GUI's. > This *is* the wrong group to address these issues. A better forum or based to build an object oriented GUI can be a java forum. C++ is great however it requires a ton of effort to build a decent object oriented GUI or a *decent* object oriented library. We are taking small steps in the OO world, like porting corba ORBs , ilu, java, etc... however even at that level we lack a suitable development environment. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 14:34:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19412 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19407 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA05358; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:34:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:12:30 +0200." <19970831221230.08862@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <5354.873063267@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But I think that the hack-heads who do everything from a tty and > who have a lot of influence on the development of FreeBSD, should > consider the world outside who's in need of GUI's. Hey, we're always willing to evaluate your code. We just don't feel particularly good about folks coming up and saying "hey man, your approach sucks - you need to make this stuff graphical and more consistent" when we already KNOW that there are a great many limitations to the approach we've taken, said limitations almost always a direct result of limited manpower. Let's take sysinstall for example, something which you say has a confusing GUI with a poor selection model. I agree with you. sysinstall's UI is a festering heap of trash which annoys me, its principle author, probably more than anyone. Why is it so evil? Because it uses libdialog(3) and a series of hand-rolled curses(3) screens, the many limitations of those stemming from the general unwieldyness of curses programming and my lack of time to sit down and write a whole bunch of advanced curses widgets like scrolling list boxes or expanding lists. I also noted this MANY times in the various mailing lists and cast my nets far and wide for some better GUI development environment that didn't depend on X (which you can't really do if you're writing an installer for someone who might be installing a rack-mounted PC using a serial line and a VT100 terminal). Until I finally stumbled onto Turbovision 5 months ago, there was nothing, zilch, nada, and all the Windows advocates yelling for better GUIs were absolutely no help at all - all talk and no code from them. Even Turbovision, with all its snazzy CUI objects, is going to be something of a bear to come to grips with and it's a far cry from the kinds of drag-and-drop GUI building tools that the Windows hackers get to use in prototyping their own stuff. There's probably a couple of month's work ahead of us for setup(1) just in getting the GUI tools worked out. But no, everyone conveniently overlooks points like this when they get in the way of a good philosophical debate and I, for one, am getting just a little tired of discussing how nice the destination would look if we just went there when what we should be discussing is how to build the friggin' ROAD so that we CAN get there! :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 14:40:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19703 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.qualitysemi.com (gw.qualitysemi.com [206.86.28.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19698 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.qualitysemi.com ([206.86.28.11]) by gw.qualitysemi.com (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA11287 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun1.qsa.qualitysemi.com ([203.14.118.128]) by mailhost.qualitysemi.com (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA21537 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (julianj@localhost) by sun1.qsa.qualitysemi.com with SMTP id HAA00459 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for ); Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:40:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:40:47 +1000 (EST) From: "Julian Jenkins (QSA)" X-Sender: julianj@sun1 cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <199708300405.WAA00458@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Ooh, I'm impressed. Now set it up to use a focus-follows-pointer, don't > top on focus model. Right. You can't. Bill likes click-to-focus, I have this on my NT setup, thanks to the X server I use. Unfortunatly, this works fine for all applications except console windows, which insist on moving to the front if the mouse passes over them. Also, the menus acessable by right clicking on the start bar instantly vanish when using pointer focus. Kaveman From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 16:31:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23788 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23782 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01644; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:31:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:31:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-Reply-To: <5354.873063267@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Let's take sysinstall for example, something which you say has a > confusing GUI with a poor selection model. I agree with you. > sysinstall's UI is a festering heap of trash which annoys me, its > principle author, probably more than anyone. Why is it so evil? > Because it uses libdialog(3) and a series of hand-rolled curses(3) > screens, the many limitations of those stemming from the general > unwieldyness of curses programming and my lack of time to sit down and > write a whole bunch of advanced curses widgets like scrolling list > boxes or expanding lists. Indeed there are numerous mechanical glitches in the interface that are annoying and can be attributed to a less than stunning UI library, but some larger scale navigation problems are not really toolkit related. Particularly disorienting is the behavior of the "Cancel" buttons, or the lack of a "back" button. When proceeding through the various setup screens, if a mistake is made you usually end up going right back to the start and have to proceed through the whole process again. A "back" button also provides the essential ability to review the installation options before pressing the GO button. Since people typically read documentation only as a last resort, more could be done to provide cues about the installation process at an overview level--where you have been and where you are going. For example, a bit of screen space could be devoted to a little outline of the process, with completed steps appropriately marked. There are basically five steps: preparing the hard drive(s), selecting the distributions, selecting the media, installing, and configuring. Such a little guide would do wonders for making the whole installation process more coherent. That said, I've seen many install programs that are far worse! -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 17:06:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24990 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24985 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04315; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:33:41 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709010003.JAA04315@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Fieber cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:31:23 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:33:35 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Let's take sysinstall for example, something which you say has a > > confusing GUI with a poor selection model. I agree with you. > > sysinstall's UI is a festering heap of trash which annoys me, its > > principle author, probably more than anyone. Why is it so evil? > > Because it uses libdialog(3) and a series of hand-rolled curses(3) > > screens, the many limitations of those stemming from the general > > unwieldyness of curses programming and my lack of time to sit down and > > write a whole bunch of advanced curses widgets like scrolling list > > boxes or expanding lists. > > Indeed there are numerous mechanical glitches in the interface > that are annoying and can be attributed to a less than stunning > UI library, but some larger scale navigation problems are not > really toolkit related. > > Particularly disorienting is the behavior of the "Cancel" > buttons, or the lack of a "back" button. These are also "features" of the UI, believe it or not. > When proceeding through > the various setup screens, if a mistake is made you usually end > up going right back to the start and have to proceed through the > whole process again. A "back" button also provides the essential > ability to review the installation options before pressing the GO > button. As an issue of curiosity, and for general review does the sequence : - step sequentially (in some hopefully logocal order) through all the required configuration dialogs - present the gathered information in summary form, with functionality to jump immediately to a particular editing screen if a parameter is found to be wrong (by the user) - offer a proceed/cancel selection come closer to the ideal for the gather/review/confirm cycle? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 18:04:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27654 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27635 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01773; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:03:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:03:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Mike Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-Reply-To: <199709010003.JAA04315@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > As an issue of curiosity, and for general review does the sequence : > > - step sequentially (in some hopefully logocal order) through all the > required configuration dialogs > - present the gathered information in summary form, with functionality > to jump immediately to a particular editing screen if a parameter is > found to be wrong (by the user) > - offer a proceed/cancel selection > > come closer to the ideal for the gather/review/confirm cycle? I've seen this approach a lot, and the review is helpful but not sufficient. Imagine an installation with 6 screens. You make a mistake (or a poorly informed decision) on the second screen which you realize on the third screen. With the above scenario, at the best, you must keep that error in mind as you proceed through the rest of the process to the review screen. With fairly long installation process, it is easy to forget about some mistake made near the beginning, for example, realizing that you actually wanted a separate partition for /usr/local. This is aggrivated by the density of relatively complex decisions that must be made during the install process. In short, the fewer intervening events between realizing an error and correcting the error, the fewer steps involved and the more likely that the error will actually be corrected. At the worst, the mistake may result in taking a wrong fork in the installation process which cannot be carried through to the confirmation stage, thus requiring the user to abort the whole process and start over. Also, how does the user know that there will be a complete review/confirmation stage near the end of the gathering phase? The ability to review and correct at any point in the process will reduce anxiety about making mistakes. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 19:26:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00520 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00514 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19682 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:55:45 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00270; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:41:54 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709010211.LAA00270@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Fieber cc: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:03:32 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 11:41:53 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Sorry for the quote extent, I can't break this down without losing context...) > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > As an issue of curiosity, and for general review does the sequence : > > > > - step sequentially (in some hopefully logocal order) through all the > > required configuration dialogs > > - present the gathered information in summary form, with functionality > > to jump immediately to a particular editing screen if a parameter is > > found to be wrong (by the user) > > - offer a proceed/cancel selection > > > > come closer to the ideal for the gather/review/confirm cycle? > > I've seen this approach a lot, and the review is helpful but not > sufficient. Imagine an installation with 6 screens. You make a > mistake (or a poorly informed decision) on the second screen > which you realize on the third screen. > > With the above scenario, at the best, you must keep that error in > mind as you proceed through the rest of the process to the review > screen. With fairly long installation process, it is easy to > forget about some mistake made near the beginning, for example, > realizing that you actually wanted a separate partition for > /usr/local. This is aggrivated by the density of relatively > complex decisions that must be made during the install process. > In short, the fewer intervening events between realizing an error > and correcting the error, the fewer steps involved and the more > likely that the error will actually be corrected. OK; we need more detail then. If we consider the process through the configuration "screens" as being a set of steps along a path, with (possible) branches based on some input, and the summary screen at the end being, in effect, a description of the steps taken to get there, then the following actions make "sense" : - complete a screen and proceed to the next. - back up from a screen to a previous screen along the path, ie. "oops". - return to a particular screen from the "summary" screen, with the possible consequence that other subsequent screens may have to be visited, and ultimately a new summary screen generated describing the new path. Please forgive my thickness; I've done quite a lot of UI work, but never been happy with my results, or any of the texts I've found on the topic. Having a real-life example and some people that understand it is a great temptation to learn 8) > At the worst, the mistake may result in taking a wrong fork in > the installation process which cannot be carried through to the > confirmation stage, thus requiring the user to abort the whole > process and start over. >From a logical/implementation viewpoint, looking at the "gather" process as a tree which can be traversed in any direction makes this possible; is it adequate from the conceptual/user point of view? Microsoft and their "Wizard" stuff just uses the forwards/back model sans summary, and asks "are you happy" at the end. I always felt that I wanted to know *what*exactly* I was agreeing to... > Also, how does the user know that there will be a complete > review/confirmation stage near the end of the gathering phase? > The ability to review and correct at any point in the process > will reduce anxiety about making mistakes. Is it adequate to mention the review-before-anything-happens facet early in the process, or is this likely to be ignored as you've mentioned before? Thanks mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 31 23:17:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09446 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09439 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA07102; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:16:29 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:03:32 CDT." Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:16:28 -0700 Message-ID: <7098.873094588@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Perhaps I'm just biased from my previous installation experience, but the way I see this working is as a series of linked "black boxes", each black box representing some functional block of installation hackery with an API for getting/setting its internal state and executing it. You allow boxes to be named, to depend on other boxes and to be arbitrarily chained together themselves. A "novice install" then becomes a simple matter of creating a chain of operations and starting the user off at the head of it. You'd have some sort of "escape mode" which allowed the user to jump up a level and examine this operation chain, moving forwards or backwards and perhaps able to distinguish completed from uncompleted actions by their appearance. Sysinstall also currently requires that each functional block roll its own GUI more or less from scratch - that's painful. It'd be a lot nicer if you could simply say that each block had some attributes and when you "visited" one, more generic attribute editing code could take over the job of presenting the appropriate dialogs. You have some known attributes for designating whether a block can be undone or has gone past the point of no return, etc. and so forth. Doncha think? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 01:29:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA14273 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14262 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA18441 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:28:32 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA19402; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: What's the daemon chasing? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My wife just walked into my lair and saw a 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM on the floor, and asked me what the daemon was chasing. I couldn't decide. Does anybody have any ideas? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 02:29:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA16367 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (mail-atm.san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA16362 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA16939; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709010928.CAA16939@mail.san.rr.com> Received: from dt5h1n61.san.rr.com(204.210.31.97) by mail via smap (V2.0) id xma016901; Mon, 1 Sep 97 02:28:39 -0700 From: "Studded" To: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Greg Lehey" Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 02:28:37 -0700 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >My wife just walked into my lair and saw a 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM on the >floor, and asked me what the daemon was chasing. I couldn't decide. >Does anybody have any ideas? *Laughing* I'm glad she asked... I thought I was the only one who wondered why the little guy was chasing a giant shiny spoon. :) Doug Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. -Shakespeare, "Henry V" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 03:02:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA17723 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17716 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA06818; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709011004.DAA06818@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930." <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 03:04:44 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >My wife just walked into my lair and saw a 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM on the >floor, and asked me what the daemon was chasing. I couldn't decide. >Does anybody have any ideas? There are at least two different interpretations: 1) A giant sperm cell. *Why* he would wish to do this is unknown. 2) Trying to skewer a worm with his trident...Chuck is looking mighty thin these days. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 04:41:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA21321 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA21316 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA17567; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:40:23 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:40:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199709011140.NAA17567@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Mike Smith CC: jfieber@indiana.edu, peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Mike Smith's message of Mon, 01 Sep 1997 11:41:53 +0930 Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) References: <199709010211.LAA00270@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > OK; we need more detail then. If we consider the process through the > configuration "screens" as being a set of steps along a path, with > (possible) branches based on some input, and the summary screen at the > end being, in effect, a description of the steps taken to get there, > then the following actions make "sense" : > > - complete a screen and proceed to the next. > - back up from a screen to a previous screen along the path, ie. > "oops". > - return to a particular screen from the "summary" screen, with the > possible consequence that other subsequent screens may have to be > visited, and ultimately a new summary screen generated describing > the new path. Sounds right to me. > > At the worst, the mistake may result in taking a wrong fork in > > the installation process which cannot be carried through to the > > confirmation stage, thus requiring the user to abort the whole > > process and start over. > > >From a logical/implementation viewpoint, looking at the "gather" > process as a tree which can be traversed in any direction makes this > possible; is it adequate from the conceptual/user point of view? Yes, as long as the users selections make the traversal _(s)he sees_ into a straight line from the top down (with the possibility of going back and forth). Ie, you need to be able to ask 'are the disks already set up' and then skip or include a set of screens depending on the answer. You need to be able to ask (hyptotetically, until somebody implement this) 'Do you want BSD slicing or DOS partitions as your partitioning scheme?" and get different screens depending on the answer. And - each screen must be possible to enter with a part of the data already filled in, if the user go back and forth to change some error on the last screen. I started to implement code for this (it should be fairly nicely representable as a MageWalker and a MageScreen class) and came up with a quirk: I was thinking along this tree being kind of static - built by hand, so dependencies could easily be just set up. It can't be - think of e.g setting up a set of disks, where you may well want the user to go through the same dialogs for each disk. (I'll see if I can finish off the code tonight, and throw it in as a more consistent point in the discussion - not that it have to be used, but it should make it easier to play with the ideas). > > Also, how does the user know that there will be a complete > > review/confirmation stage near the end of the gathering phase? > > The ability to review and correct at any point in the process > > will reduce anxiety about making mistakes. > > Is it adequate to mention the review-before-anything-happens facet > early in the process, or is this likely to be ignored as you've > mentioned before? That's likely to be ignored. In fact, any text the user doesn't _have_ be involved in is likely to be ignored. However, I can't see a better way to present it - a user that can't read will be anxious no matter what we do. (Set up a speech synthesis system? ;-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 05:23:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA22912 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (chai.torrentnet.com [207.87.46.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA22904 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (localhost.torrentnet.com [127.0.0.1]) by chai.torrentnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19858; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709011221.IAA19858@chai.torrentnet.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:16:28 PDT." <7098.873094588@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 08:21:55 -0400 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Perhaps I'm just biased from my previous installation experience, but > the way I see this working is as a series of linked "black boxes", > each black box representing some functional block of installation > hackery with an API for getting/setting its internal state and > executing it. You allow boxes to be named, to depend on other boxes > and to be arbitrarily chained together themselves. A "novice install" > then becomes a simple matter of creating a chain of operations and > starting the user off at the head of it. You'd have some sort of > "escape mode" which allowed the user to jump up a level and examine > this operation chain, moving forwards or backwards and perhaps able to > distinguish completed from uncompleted actions by their appearance. Seems like a `frame' data structure would nicely represent one of your black boxes! [For the unfamiliar:] A frame has a set of named `slots', a slot has a set of named `facets', a facet can have a list of values. A value can be pretty much anything including a reference to some other frame. A frame's slots (properties) or facets (sub properties) can be inherited, defaulted or computed. You can add, change or delete any number of slots, facets or values at any time. The process of adding/deleting can also be made to trigger other changes. This flexibility, coupled with a rich set of get/set functions (see below) make it a very useful data structure in situations where a lot of information has to be inferred. For instance, you can define a generic display-frame like so: display-frame: { background-color: {value: {white}} foreground-color: {value: {black}} next: { display: {button} location: {"-1-1"} action: {select-next} } prev: { display: {button} location: {"-1+1"} action: {select-prev} } clear: { display: {button} location: {"-1+20"} action: {clear-all} } help: { display: {button} location: {"-1+40"} action: {show-help} } } When this frame is given to some display procedure it will interpret the frame's contents and display all slots that have the display facet. It will attempt to display slots at per their location facet. The first two slots are obvious. The next four slots define action buttons if a correponding button is pressed. An action facet can be a procedure that is given the calling frame, slot and facet. The select-next function can choose a different next frame depending on the user (novice or expert). Alternatively you can define two facets: novice-action, expert-action. Now a frame that requires the above behavior can be defined simply as: foo: { a-kind-of: {value: {display-frame}} help: {value: {"this is a foo frame"}} ... } The a-kind-of slot can be used to inherit from multiple frames. When foo is given to display(), its contents as well as its inherited contents are displayed. When the help button is pressed, {foo,help,action} is passed to show-help, which can extract foo.help value and display that. > Sysinstall also currently requires that each functional block roll its > own GUI more or less from scratch - that's painful. It'd be a lot > nicer if you could simply say that each block had some attributes and > when you "visited" one, more generic attribute editing code could take > over the job of presenting the appropriate dialogs. You have some > known attributes for designating whether a block can be undone or has > gone past the point of no return, etc. and so forth. Yup. This is easily possible. Slots that can be edited can have a edit facet. Instead of undoing an action you can simply wait till all the information is filled in or inferred before doing anything. The beauty of a frame is that it has a very regular structure so adding more attributes etc. does not require you to change a struct definition or worry about how to make two structs compatible when they differ only `slightly'. Since every object can be used as a prototype for some other object you can dispense with a lot of bookkeeping ala C++. -- bakul PS: Frames were first described in a 1975 paper by Marvin Minsky -- I believe you can get a scanned copy of this paper from some mit site. They are also described in some Lisp books. Frames are almost always implemented in Lisp but I see no reason why they can't be implemented in other languages or why such a rich data structure should be left alone for the use of AI heads :-) In C you can't define functions on the fly but that should not be a problem in tcl or perl. The basic frame functions are get-fsf(frame-name, slot-name, facet-name) returns values corresponding to the frame-slot-facet triple. or NULL if no such value exists set-fsf(frame-name, slot-name, facet-name, value) adds to the value list for the frame-slot-facet. also creates frame, slot and facet if missing. del-fsfv(frame-name, slot-name, facet-name, value) deletes value if it exists. deletes facet if no values left. deletes slot if no facets left. deletes frame if no slots left. get-fs(frame-name, slot-name) same as get-fsf(fame-name, slot-name, "value") get-fsd(frame-name, slot-name) in addition to what get-fs does, it also looks in the "default" facet. getI(frame-name, slot-name,facet-name) same as get-fsf but if that fails, it walks up the a-kind-of tree to extract the facet. This would be an *Inherited* facet, hence the getI name. getN(frame-name, slot-name) same as getI(frame-name, slot-name, "value") but if no value was found, it then tries getI(frame-name, slot-name, slot-name, "default") and if that fails, it tries getI(frame-name, slot-name, slot-name, "if-needed") The last getI may return a function, which when evaluated will yield the actual value. The `N' in the function name to remind us that first we walk up the a-kind-of tree, then come all the way down and try it again with a different facet, walking up again and so on. getZ(frame-name, slot-name) this function goes across first and then up. That is, try get-fsf(frame-name, slot-name, "value") or else try get-fsf(frame-name, slot-name, "default") or else try get-fsf(frame-name, slot-name, "if-needed") or else for each f in get-fsf(frame-name, "a-kind-of", "value") try the same three facets. set(frame-name, slot-name, facet-name, value) like set-fsf. In addition it will also invoke an "if-added" facet procedure for slot-name if one exists or can be inherited. This way changes in one frame can be made to side-effect anything else. del(frame-name, slot-name, facet-name, value) like del-fsf. In addition it will also invoke an "if-removed" facet procedure (which may be inherited) if one exists. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 08:18:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03259 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03251 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709011515.LAA25718@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Wes Peters cc: Peter Korsten , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199708310041.SAA03408@obie.softweyr.ml.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Wes Peters wrote: Lot's of GUI design, and Microsoft stuff deleted. ONe thing to remember when designing the interface for any program, never make me have to use my mouse to use a feature. If I can't do it without leaving the keyboard, I probably won't. If it's important, and I can't do it without a mouse, you just lost a customer. I have spoken to many non CS types who hate being forced to use a mouse as well. If you want to put all your cool features on buttons and mouse driven menus, go for it, but make them accessable via keystroke as well. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 08:47:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04541 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04536 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA00888; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:47:13 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709011515.LAA25718@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from Jamie Bowden at "Sep 1, 97 11:21:16 am" To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:47:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: softweyr@xmission.com, peter@grendel.iaehv.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden said: > On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > Lot's of GUI design, and Microsoft stuff deleted. > > ONe thing to remember when designing the interface for any program, never > make me have to use my mouse to use a feature. If I can't do it without > leaving the keyboard, I probably won't. If it's important, and I can't do > it without a mouse, you just lost a customer. I have spoken to many non > CS types who hate being forced to use a mouse as well. If you want to put > all your cool features on buttons and mouse driven menus, go for it, but > make them accessable via keystroke as well. > I am a very serious computer user, developer, and HATE to use the mouse or move my hands from the keyboard in any way. If God would have meant for us to use a mouse, he would have given us three hands :-). I think that my aversion to the mouse has to do with being a touch-typist. In my case, a mouse is used as a "mode switch" alot like the control or alt keys. It entails needing to reorient my hands on the keyboard after use. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 09:14:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05838 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05832 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA05759; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:18:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:18:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709011618.KAA05759@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: References: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > Odd. You couldn't just go > > $ kill -9 `ps -c | grep 'explorer' | awk '{print $1}'` > > It always works for me! Yeah, actually I have this in a system cron job that runs once a minute. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 09:25:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06428 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06422 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03336; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:25:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:25:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber Reply-To: John Fieber To: Jamie Bowden cc: Wes Peters , Peter Korsten , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709011515.LAA25718@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > ONe thing to remember when designing the interface for any program, never > make me have to use my mouse to use a feature. If I can't do it without > leaving the keyboard, I probably won't. If it's important, and I can't do > it without a mouse, you just lost a customer. You neglect large application domains where not using a mouse/trackball/graphic tablet is just plain silly. Ever try using cad software with only a keybord? It can be done, but it is astonishingly tedious and inefficient. If, however, you only work in the domain of text, as many programmers and system administrators do, your position has merit. I just find it sad that you non-keyboard input as bad with such a broad brush. The true mouse related evil is programs that force frequent moves between the mouse and keyboard. Yech! -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 09:34:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06909 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06890 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03343; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:34:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:34:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Jamie Bowden , softweyr@xmission.com, peter@grendel.iaehv.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > If God would have meant for us to use a mouse, he would have > given us three hands :-). No, God doesn't really enter into the picture. Douglas Engelbart, who invented the mouse, intended for it to be used in conjunction with a one handed keyboard. In that configuration it proved to be a very effective input device, but with a pretty steep learning curve for people familiar with the old two handed keyboard. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 09:44:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07572 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07528 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id JAA05705; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199709011643.JAA05705@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-Reply-To: <199709011004.DAA06818.kithrup.freebsd.chat@implode.root.com> References: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930." <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199709011004.DAA06818.kithrup.freebsd.chat@implode.root.com> you write: > There are at least two different interpretations: >1) A giant sperm cell. *Why* he would wish to do this is unknown. It's amazing how many people guess that. I know *I* did. You could get into all sorts of hidden symbolisms, since Kirk is gay, but I think it unlikely ;). Officially, it's an orb that is moving very quickly, thus leaving a trail. Why the orb's there, I dunno. Probably represents the fact that BSD was no longer dependent on AT&T licenses, and thus was searching for its own little logo (with the AT&T deathstar and Novell deathsquare and now SCO deathtree-over-looking-bay being the other side, of course). From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 10:24:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10663 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10655; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199709011724.KAA10655@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199709011643.JAA05705@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Sep 1, 97 09:43:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > Officially, it's an orb that is moving very quickly, thus leaving a trail. orb?? looks like a halo to me. one that shines and so seems to leave a glowing trail. > > Why the orb's there, I dunno. Probably represents the fact that BSD was no > longer dependent on AT&T licenses, and thus was searching for its own little > logo (with the AT&T deathstar and Novell deathsquare and now SCO > deathtree-over-looking-bay being the other side, of course). > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 10:24:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10677 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust45.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10659 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id NAA04489; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970901132415.28167@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:24:15 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: John Fieber Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 11:34:08AM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 11:34:08AM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > No, God doesn't really enter into the picture. Douglas > Engelbart, who invented the mouse, intended for it to be used in > conjunction with a one handed keyboard. In that configuration it > proved to be a very effective input device, but with a pretty > steep learning curve for people familiar with the old two handed > keyboard. FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look interesting. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 13:27:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18682 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18671 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 6940 on Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:27:36 GMT; id UAA06940 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00569; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:45:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970901214516.08606@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:45:16 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) References: <7098.873094588@time.cdrom.com> <199709011221.IAA19858@chai.torrentnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199709011221.IAA19858@chai.torrentnet.com>; from Bakul Shah on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 08:21:55AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bakul Shah shared with us: > > [extensive explanation of frames ommited] > > PS: Frames were first described in a 1975 paper by Marvin > Minsky -- I believe you can get a scanned copy of this paper > from some mit site. They are also described in some Lisp > books. Frames are almost always implemented in Lisp but I > see no reason why they can't be implemented in other > languages or why such a rich data structure should be left > alone for the use of AI heads :-) In C you can't define > functions on the fly but that should not be a problem in tcl > or perl. This reminds me of the Installer on the Amiga. It had some sort of Lisp-like language with an awful lot of parentheses. At the start you (usually) could choose to actually install or pretend to install (for the paranoid among us) and choose one of three levels: beginner, intermediate or expert. The programmer of the installer script could choose to disable some of these options. The sequence then looked somewhat like the wizards that came since Windows 95, except for the 'Previous' and 'Next' buttons. As the programmer, you could implements buttons, lists, text boxes, check- boxes, radio buttons and file requesters. The contents could come from an external sources, like a list of devices. It was implemented with the standard Amiga gadgets (widgets), but could as well have been implemented with a text display in mind. This frames approach sounds like a good approach to me. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 14:08:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20244 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iron.Te.NeT.UA (root@iron.Te.NeT.UA [195.138.80.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20235 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gloom.te.net.ua (d149.TeNeT.Odessa.UA [195.138.80.149]) by iron.Te.NeT.UA (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA16855 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:07:49 +0300 Received: (from pss@localhost) by gloom.te.net.ua (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00709 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:08:02 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:08:02 +0300 (EEST) From: Sergey Pukach Message-Id: <199709012108.AAA00709@gloom.te.net.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: C code style quide Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Can anyone point me to *detailed* style guide of C programming? I have 'Style guide for the 4BSD KNF', but it is quite brief... pss From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 17:57:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04206 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04196 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA24332; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:56:39 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA21308; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:26:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970902102638.62618@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:26:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sean Eric Fagan Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? References: <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> <199709011004.DAA06818.kithrup.freebsd.chat@implode.root.com> <199709011643.JAA05705@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709011643.JAA05705@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 09:43:56AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 09:43:56AM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > In article <199709011004.DAA06818.kithrup.freebsd.chat@implode.root.com> you write: >> There are at least two different interpretations: >> 1) A giant sperm cell. *Why* he would wish to do this is unknown. > > Officially, it's an orb that is moving very quickly, thus leaving a > trail. Hmm. I thought an orb was spherical. We talked about it a bit more this morning. Some of the suggestions: - a pancake - a frisbee - a fried egg > Why the orb's there, I dunno. Probably represents the fact that BSD was no > longer dependent on AT&T licenses, and thus was searching for its own little > logo (with the AT&T deathstar and Novell deathsquare and now SCO > deathtree-over-looking-bay being the other side, of course). Hmm. That doesn't say why it was an orb. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 18:16:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05141 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05136 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA24887; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:14:20 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA21341; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:41:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:41:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: hcremean@vt.edu Cc: John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) References: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> <19970901132415.28167@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970901132415.28167@wakky.dyn.ml.org>; from Lee Cremeans on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 01:24:15PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 01:24:15PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 11:34:08AM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > >> No, God doesn't really enter into the picture. Douglas >> Engelbart, who invented the mouse, intended for it to be used in >> conjunction with a one handed keyboard. In that configuration it >> proved to be a very effective input device, but with a pretty >> steep learning curve for people familiar with the old two handed >> keyboard. > > FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed > advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look > interesting. How do they work? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 18:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05618 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05603 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 2 Sep 1997 01:30:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:30:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <5354.873063267@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I also noted this MANY times in the various mailing lists and cast my > nets far and wide for some better GUI development environment that > didn't depend on X (which you can't really do if you're writing an > installer for someone who might be installing a rack-mounted PC using > a serial line and a VT100 terminal). Until I finally stumbled onto > Turbovision 5 months ago, there was nothing, zilch, nada, and all the > Windows advocates yelling for better GUIs were absolutely no help at > all - all talk and no code from them. I do not see an X option being entirely evil. I certainly agree that X should not be a requirement, but it may not be a bad idea for a CD-ROM release. It appears entrirely feasible to have a (bootable? :)) CD-ROM with a minimal X release read-only on the media. I am not aware of any cards that do not support the XFree86 vga16 driver. Conceivably, the bootable CD-ROM could be its own OS, designed to format, copy, and configure. It could be a modular environment that would only need to be designed once. The down side would be the space required. I don't see a good way to have an X-based install without either a CD filesystem or root on NFS. I would suggest this a an ammendment, and not a replacement for sysinstall. For various reasons, sysinstall still has its place. The menus take a bit of getting used to, but they work, and they work fast. I personally like a slim install utility and would continue to use sysinstall. But I also see the need for a consistent, homogenous, and "retail boxed" front end to an exteremly valuable piece of work. There needs to be a balance between the internals and externals. The internals are what ultimately influence performance, capability, and reliability. The externals are required for marketing, user-friendliness, and sex appeal. If I had to choose between an internally focused OS (eg FreeBSD, OpenBSD, etc.) and an externally focused OS (eg Win95, MacOS), I would obviously take the former. But who says you can't have both? I see the key as being a CHOICE. Have the internals solid, and let the individual decide what type of externals to apply. Neither FreeBSD or MS does a good job at this; BSD does not provide lots of GUIs, and MS has no way around it! Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 18:29:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05725 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05718 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26699 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:59:21 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00498; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:55:07 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930." <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:55:06 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My wife just walked into my lair and saw a 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM on the > floor, and asked me what the daemon was chasing. I couldn't decide. > Does anybody have any ideas? It's them yellow Microsoft bastids with the large round backsides, eminently suited to tridenting. mike ps. Microsoft shouted me to go see Contact last night, which is funny because while I'm a "Sales Partner", I never volunteered for the job and have never sold any of their "product". All in all, not a bad movie. Particularly if you remove the bogus reductionist "religious" philosophy. However, about halfway through I realised that I had read the story it was based on *many* years ago. At the end of the movie, the credits claimed that it was based on the book of the same name by Carl Sagan (I clapped at the "for Carl" credit, but nobody else got it. Morons.), and that based on a story by Sagan and someone else. However, I expressly *don't* recall the original story I read as being written by him; does anyone remember the original, or have it on their shelf? There was a lot less religious bunkum, and (IIRC) *three* capsule travellers, not one. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 18:43:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06304 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06297 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA18616; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:43:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Atipa cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 19:30:07 MDT." Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 18:43:09 -0700 Message-ID: <18613.873164589@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would suggest this a an ammendment, and not a replacement for > sysinstall. For various reasons, sysinstall still has its place. I'll tell you the same thing I've told Peter several times: Send me the code for this and I'll be happy to evaluate it. More work on my plate I don't particularly need, guys. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 19:19:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07781 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust45.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07776 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id WAA07481; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970901221741.17050@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:17:41 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> <19970901132415.28167@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Sep 02, 1997 at 10:41:53AM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 02, 1997 at 10:41:53AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 01:24:15PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed > > advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look > > interesting. > > How do they work? They have between 5-7 buttons on them, and they're made to fit your hand; you apparently "chord" the keys in diiferent ways to make characters. I don't know much about them, I'd have to look at the ad again... -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 19:57:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09362 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09349 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709020253.WAA27852@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: John Fieber cc: Wes Peters , Peter Korsten , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, John Fieber wrote: > You neglect large application domains where not using a > mouse/trackball/graphic tablet is just plain silly. Ever try > using cad software with only a keybord? It can be done, but > it is astonishingly tedious and inefficient. You are correct, I forgot about these particular applications. They are very much mouse dependant. Drawing/cad programs in general have to be. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 20:52:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11428 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11422 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA05156; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:51:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:51:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Greg Lehey cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > > FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed > > advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look > > interesting. > > How do they work? Usually by chording rather than typing single keys. I gather the main liability is the amount of time it takes to learn. Also, to really use the mouse as it was originally envisioned would require re-writing software interfaces to best take advantage of a keyboard used at the same time as the mouse instead of each in relative isolation. Such software would probably be terribly cumbersome for the 99.9% of the world who doesn't have such a keyboard/mouse arrangement. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 21:25:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12961 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12956 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id VAA04370; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:25:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199709020425.VAA04370@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) References: <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: >> How do they work? >Usually by chording rather than typing single keys. I gather the >main liability is the amount of time it takes to learn. Oh, you must have seen different ones than the ones I'd seen. The ones I'd seen ads for grafted an extra 11 fingers onto whichever hand you chose. Needless to say, they were quite expensive, and I thought that was why they'd never caught on. And now I find out that there was competition. I bet they're considerably cheaper. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 21:38:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13599 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13573 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05215; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:37:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:37:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber Reply-To: John Fieber To: Mike Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-Reply-To: <199709010211.LAA00270@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > OK; we need more detail then. If we consider the process through the > configuration "screens" as being a set of steps along a path, with > (possible) branches based on some input, and the summary screen at the > end being, in effect, a description of the steps taken to get there, > then the following actions make "sense" : > > - complete a screen and proceed to the next. > - back up from a screen to a previous screen along the path, ie. > "oops". > - return to a particular screen from the "summary" screen, with the > possible consequence that other subsequent screens may have to be > visited, and ultimately a new summary screen generated describing > the new path. Jumping must be done very carefully as it can be disorienting. A little outline of the steps with the proverbial "You are HERE" marker is helpful. Jumping forward can technically only be done if the changed item has no dependencies later in the process. Even when it could technically be done, it might not be good from a usability point of view. I'm not sure on this though, I'll have to think about it. Obviously if the change results in taking a differnt branch through the install process, eg changing from a CDROM install to a network install, you will have to proceed through screen at a time from at least the branch point on. Getting down to the toolkit/mechanics, when proceeding through screens after making a change, it can be helpful to visually highlight any dependent information that may be affected by the change. > From a logical/implementation viewpoint, looking at the "gather" > process as a tree which can be traversed in any direction makes this > possible; is it adequate from the conceptual/user point of view? Lacking a visualization of the tree, a linear model with forward and back would be more consistent with what a user experiences, particularly if they don't make mistakes that cause different branches to be traversed. > Is it adequate to mention the review-before-anything-happens facet > early in the process, or is this likely to be ignored as you've > mentioned before? As Eivind said, if they don't have to interact with it, it may as well not even be there. :) In a previous life working managing publicly accessible computers (in libraries), there were always local quirks that needed some documentation--printing procedure oddities being the most frequent. My supervisor insisted that I put out signs, but it was obvious that anything not on the screen was completely ignored. Things on the screen were usually ignored if there was no forced interaction with the message, and even then it was often ignored. How do I know? Very simple, just work out at the reference desk and observe the frequency of questions for which the answer is clearly spelled out either on a sign, onscreen without interaction, and onscreen with forced interaction. Ultimately, for this particular problem, the most effective solution was to let the mistake happen and then provide a recovery mechanism rather than mistake avoidance. This worked by placing the printing instruction on the printers themselves rather than at the workstations. Users would come over to the printer, and while waiting for the printout that was never going to arrive because they didn't follow the instructions, they had time to stare at the printer, notice, and then read the instructions. Alas, this illustrates the most aggrivating dimension of interface design: there are damn few reliable rules of thumb, and most of those are what NOT to do, which doesn't help out much in figuring out what TO do. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 21:45:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13944 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13938 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05241; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:45:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:45:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-Reply-To: <7098.873094588@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Perhaps I'm just biased from my previous installation experience, but > the way I see this working is as a series of linked "black boxes", > each black box representing some functional block of installation > hackery with an API for getting/setting its internal state and > executing it. You allow boxes to be named, to depend on other boxes > and to be arbitrarily chained together themselves. A "novice install" > then becomes a simple matter of creating a chain of operations and > starting the user off at the head of it. You underestimate the difficulty in getting the chaining right simultaneously from a usability point of view and a technical point of view, but otherwise, yes. For a tradeoff example, do you do the partitioning or distribution selection first? If you do partitioning first, the distribution selection can advise you about what will fit. But, if the distributions are selected first, then the user (or the system) can make more informed choices about partitioning. Things like that do tend to muck with the otherwise elegant chain of black boxes. :) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 22:51:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16799 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16794 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newmicronpc (pool043-max2.la-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.3.118]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA19714; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:05:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199709020605.XAA19714@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: Mike Smith Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:55:33 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? CC: FreeBSD Chat Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> References: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:58:21 +0930." <19970901175821.15741@lemis.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > To: Greg Lehey > Cc: FreeBSD Chat > Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:55:06 +0930 > From: Mike Smith > > ps. Microsoft shouted me to go see Contact last night, which is funny > because while I'm a "Sales Partner", I never volunteered for the job > and have never sold any of their "product". All in all, not a bad > movie. Particularly if you remove the bogus reductionist "religious" > philosophy. However, about halfway through I realised that I had read > the story it was based on *many* years ago. > > At the end of the movie, the credits claimed that it was based on the > book of the same name by Carl Sagan (I clapped at the "for Carl" credit, > but nobody else got it. Morons.), and that based on a story by Sagan > and someone else. However, I expressly *don't* recall the original > story I read as being written by him; does anyone remember the > original, or have it on their shelf? There was a lot less religious > bunkum, and (IIRC) *three* capsule travellers, not one. > I was pleased to see the "for Carl" credit too but missed the reference to the book. The book was to me the first credible use (kinda--you'd still get squished) of the concept of the wormhole as a means to traverse space-time. Seeing the wormhole brought the book to mind, but it was a couple days later before I recalled Sagan wrote it. And your email reminds me it had a co-author. (I think. I don't trust my memory anymore with respect to suggestion. This month's Scientific American has an interesting article on the (false) memory phenomenon.) Anyway, the book was worth reading, but I don't know if I'd read it again solely because of its literary value. I wish M$ had bought my ticket! :) Riley From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 23:14:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17991 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (root@stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17986 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.3) id DAA25515; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:38:47 +0100 (BST) From: Adrian Wontroba Message-Id: <199709020238.DAA25515@titus.stade.co.uk> Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? To: mike@smith.net.au Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:38:47 +0100 (BST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Organization: Stade Computers Limited, UK X-Phone: (+44) 121 373 9546 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> you write: >original, or have it on their shelf? There was a lot less religious >bunkum, and (IIRC) *three* capsule travellers, not one. My daughter hijacked my copy. From memory, there was more than one traveller (three sounds right), and the philosophy formed an important part of the ending. I've not seen the film, but perhaps the director was trying for something more than just a hi-tech adventure story? Whilst here - Thanks for FreeBSD folks. I evaluated it for ACCU's web server, and decided to ditch SCO and use it myself - does everything I want at a far more economic price (8-) -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 373 9546 Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users or see From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 23:20:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18330 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18283 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28791 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:49:52 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01380; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:45:31 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709020615.PAA01380@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Riley McIntire" cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 22:55:33 GMT." <199709020605.XAA19714@train.tgci.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 15:45:30 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > ps. Microsoft shouted me to go see Contact last night, which is funny > > because while I'm a "Sales Partner", I never volunteered for the job > > and have never sold any of their "product". All in all, not a bad > > movie. Particularly if you remove the bogus reductionist "religious" > > philosophy. However, about halfway through I realised that I had read > > the story it was based on *many* years ago. > > > > At the end of the movie, the credits claimed that it was based on the > > book of the same name by Carl Sagan (I clapped at the "for Carl" credit, > > but nobody else got it. Morons.), and that based on a story by Sagan > > and someone else. However, I expressly *don't* recall the original > > story I read as being written by him; does anyone remember the > > original, or have it on their shelf? There was a lot less religious > > bunkum, and (IIRC) *three* capsule travellers, not one. > > > > I was pleased to see the "for Carl" credit too but missed the > reference to the book. The book was to me the first credible use > (kinda--you'd still get squished) of the concept of the wormhole as a > means to traverse space-time. Hmm. It's interesting to note that it's only the traveller that assumes that it's a "wormhole" as such; the guy playing the "aleen" did a *very* good job of being relaxed and indefinite 8) You could argue that it was the capsule that did the managing of non-squishiness, I guess. > Anyway, the book was worth reading, but I don't know if I'd read it > again solely because of its literary value. That's fair enough. Actually, another thing that surprised me about the film was the stark contrast between some of the moderately subtle things that happened and the incredibly blatant way they rammed other quirks (18 hours of static) down your throat. Oh, and they (*&^(*&^ didn't include any footage of our installation down the road from Arecibo. Bastards. Still, they did a reasonably good job of avoiding too many Really Bad computing gaffes. > I wish M$ had bought my ticket! :) You do? On the plus side, it was free and there were *no* trailers or adverts; on the minus side we had to listen to the local distributor co-hosting the presentation wanking on about how wonderful Microsoft's "product" was. I've seen Amway conventions on TV; at least this lot didn't dance and sing. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 23:29:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18871 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18863 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19968; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:37:01 CDT." Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:28:53 -0700 Message-ID: <19964.873181733@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Obviously if the change results in taking a differnt branch > through the install process, eg changing from a CDROM install to > a network install, you will have to proceed through screen at a > time from at least the branch point on. That's one of the reasons I'd want to express the install in terms of functional blocks which can be arranged, rearranged and viewed as a list of things to do, those already performed marked in some way. This would allow the more advanced users to drop into "create your own installation sequence" mode, where you could "drag" the following items off of a palette for a truly custom installation sequence: disks-partition disks-label media-select ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD dist-select interactive install-commit dist-select des eBones media-select ftp://ftp.internat.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD install-commit media-select CDROM dist-select extras install-commit This contrived example aimed at installing the base OS from ftp.freebsd.org and the not-for-export bits from ftp.internat.freebsd.org. Far more creative combinations would, of course, be possible. > Lacking a visualization of the tree, a linear model with forward > and back would be more consistent with what a user experiences, > particularly if they don't make mistakes that cause different > branches to be traversed. I think even the linear model should allow visualization of planned or already performed operations. It would make it a lot more evident what was going on, for one thing, and hopefully eventually lead to novice users becoming more advanced ones over time. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 23:30:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18998 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18993 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28863 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:59:59 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01409; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:51:11 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709020621.PAA01409@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: aw1@stade.co.uk cc: mike@smith.net.au, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 03:38:47 +0100." <199709020238.DAA25515@titus.stade.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 15:51:10 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In article <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> you write: > > > > >original, or have it on their shelf? There was a lot less religious > >bunkum, and (IIRC) *three* capsule travellers, not one. > > My daughter hijacked my copy. From memory, there was more than one > traveller (three sounds right), and the philosophy formed an > important part of the ending. I've not seen the film, but perhaps > the director was trying for something more than just a hi-tech > adventure story? I'm certain they were, and that's not what I was griping about. The philosophical issues involved in such a scenario are very complex, and in quite a few places they managed to hint at this, but when it came right down to the crunch, the question again and again was "do you believe in the White American Christian God"?, and to me that was more than slightly insulting. Then we can contemplate the scene at the end after she's in the car and he's the one that has to say "yes" in order to validate her belief; what's wrong with her own faith? She needs a "white male of the cloth" to believe in her before she can take/be taken seriously? Please. I've gotten in trouble before getting cross about the insane desire that people have to seek "easier" versions of their questions, and "easy" answers to them; I can smell it happening again 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 1 23:32:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19117 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19112 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19988; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:31:40 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:45:02 CDT." Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:31:40 -0700 Message-ID: <19984.873181900@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You underestimate the difficulty in getting the chaining right > simultaneously from a usability point of view and a technical > point of view, but otherwise, yes. > > For a tradeoff example, do you do the partitioning or > distribution selection first? If you do partitioning first, the > distribution selection can advise you about what will fit. But, > if the distributions are selected first, then the user (or the > system) can make more informed choices about partitioning. This is where dependencies enter the picture. Distribution selection will depend on some list of partitions either being known to the installer, e.g. the upgrade case where we've gone and mounted a bunch of pre-existing stuff using the old fstab file for hints, or registered as pending, e.g. they'll be created before the extraction step takes place but don't exist now. Either way, the distribution selection "black box" has a map of available space. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 03:43:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA29616 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA29606 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id GAA12386; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:42:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Mike Smith cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-Reply-To: <199709020615.PAA01380@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > I wish M$ had bought my ticket! :) > > You do? On the plus side, it was free and there were *no* trailers or > adverts; on the minus side we had to listen to the local distributor > co-hosting the presentation wanking on about how wonderful Microsoft's > "product" was. I've seen Amway conventions on TV; at least this lot > didn't dance and sing. Just on a side note.. I was browsing through the Pay Per View section on my sony DSS last night, and I see a $12.95 30-40 minute flick on MS IE 4.0 with a lecture by bill gates. It teaches you how to get, install, and create DAZZLING web pages with MS IE 4.0. They made it VERY clear in the description you would be getting a so called talk given by bill gates himself on this program. Anyone seen this? The price is insane. Just curious what it's all about. Why would MS put a PPV movie on IE 4.0, for sales? It isn't like they go out of their way to help their customers. Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 03:45:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA29730 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA29719 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01502; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25264; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:46:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:46:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Mike Smith cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-Reply-To: <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > book of the same name by Carl Sagan (I clapped at the "for Carl" credit, > but nobody else got it. Morons.), and that based on a story by Sagan Hey, easy on them. I can think of at least 3 (of 6 possible) people who saw the movie and "got it" but did not clap (me, mom, and dad). Of course, Carl Sagan wouldn't have gotten into that science-is-our-religion-and-god stuff (well, not like that, anyways). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 04:37:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA01721 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 04:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA01702 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 04:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00240; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:01:32 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709021131.VAA00240@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:46:31 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 21:01:29 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > book of the same name by Carl Sagan (I clapped at the "for Carl" credit, > > but nobody else got it. Morons.), and that based on a story by Sagan > > Hey, easy on them. I can think of at least 3 (of 6 possible) > people who saw the movie and "got it" but did not clap (me, mom, > and dad). But an entire cinema of 500+ people? Perhaps americans aren't so vocal at the movies, but around here it's not uncommon, hence my surprise. Then again, the collective gasp at the "explanations for idiots" moments should have been more of a clue. *sigh* > Of course, Carl Sagan wouldn't have gotten into that > science-is-our-religion-and-god stuff (well, not like that, > anyways). Indeed. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 08:36:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12325 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12315 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08914; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:35:54 GMT Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (auk.fsl.noaa.gov) by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with ESMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA201804552; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:35:52 GMT Message-Id: <340C3257.8956B01B@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 09:35:52 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: John Fieber , Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sysinstall (was Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate) References: <7098.873094588@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70BBD708A6072DA335490B42" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70BBD708A6072DA335490B42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It'd be a lot nicer if you could simply say that each block had some > attributes and > when you "visited" one, more generic attribute editing code could take > over the job of presenting the appropriate dialogs. Hmm, component models ... Java Beans, for instance? --------------70BBD708A6072DA335490B42 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Sean Kelly Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Sean Kelly n: Kelly;Sean org: CIRA/NOAA adr: NOAA/OAR/ERL/FSL/SDD R/E/FS4;;325 Broadway;Boulder;Colorado;80303;USA email;internet: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov title: Research Coordinator tel;work: 303.497.6247 tel;fax: 303.497.7256 tel;home: Private x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------70BBD708A6072DA335490B42-- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 10:13:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16708 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust184.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16700 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id NAA08786; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970902131302.50260@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:13:02 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Open Systems Networking Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <199709020615.PAA01380@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Tue, Sep 02, 1997 at 06:42:46AM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 02, 1997 at 06:42:46AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > Just on a side note.. I was browsing through the Pay Per View section on > my sony DSS last night, and I see a $12.95 30-40 minute flick on MS IE 4.0 > with a lecture by bill gates. It teaches you how to get, install, and > create DAZZLING web pages with MS IE 4.0. They made it VERY clear in > the description you would be getting a so called talk given by bill gates > himself on this program. Anyone seen this? The price is insane. AIE!!!!!!!!!!!! That is sickening! -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 13:25:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25468 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25455 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17994; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02008; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:26:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:26:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Mike Smith cc: hoek@hwcn.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-Reply-To: <199709021131.VAA00240@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > But an entire cinema of 500+ people? Perhaps americans aren't so vocal > at the movies, but around here it's not uncommon, hence my surprise. Well, to be fair, it wasn't a random sampling of Australians. If I understood you, they were all Microsoft salesmen. ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 14:31:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28956 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28948 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA05564 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:31:28 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id XAA25404 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:30:56 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA04872; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:14:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970902231418.62271@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:14:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: About sysinstall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We all think there is much room for improvement in sysinstall (even a whole rewrite), even the primary author claims it. But after two days wrestling with both Red Hat and Debian installation programs (I need both FreeBSD & Linux for IPv6 work), I say "give me sysinstall anyday". Kudos to all involved (again). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 14:57:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00241 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00228 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07173; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:56:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Ollivier Robert cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: About sysinstall In-Reply-To: <19970902231418.62271@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Ollivier Robert wrote: > But after two days wrestling with both Red Hat and Debian installation > programs (I need both FreeBSD & Linux for IPv6 work), I say "give me > sysinstall anyday". ...or the Windows 95 install that is good from the interface point of view, but simply does the Wrong Thing on the technical end, leaving you with an unusable system... It took me a week to get working win95 installed on an old wheezing 386sx laptop, only a couple hours for FreeBSD. :) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 15:12:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01138 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01131 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA25212; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Ollivier Robert cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: About sysinstall In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 23:14:18 +0200." <19970902231418.62271@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 15:12:11 -0700 Message-ID: <25209.873238331@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk :-) > We all think there is much room for improvement in sysinstall (even a whole > rewrite), even the primary author claims it. > > But after two days wrestling with both Red Hat and Debian installation > programs (I need both FreeBSD & Linux for IPv6 work), I say "give me > sysinstall anyday". > > Kudos to all involved (again). > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.f r > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 15:18:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01384 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01369 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id AAA22098; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:16:53 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:16:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199709022216.AAA22098@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Sergey Pukach CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Sergey Pukach's message of Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:08:02 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: C code style quide References: <199709012108.AAA00709@gloom.te.net.ua> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is from my set of bookmarks filed under "Style Guides". Apart from the "style" URL, the descriptions seem like they might have been misfiled. This is kind of strange, as I have very seldom found misfiled URLs here (though often relevant ones with odd titles). Check them out - no flames if the titles turn out to be correct, please. 2. Alignments, the basis for sequence comparison http://indigo2.uia.ac.be/~peter/doctoraat/ali.html Atlas C++ Coding Rules (23-May-1996) http://hepunx.rl.ac.uk/atlas/oo/languages/C++/style.html Catalog of compilers: graphic user interface support expanded http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/ECATEGORY/graphicu-1.html Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 16:34:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04496 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04489 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 29753 on Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:34:05 GMT; id XAA29753 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00625; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:34:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970903003408.50710@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:34:08 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) References: <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 10:51:01PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber shared with us: > > [keyboards designed to be used with a mouse] > > Also, to really use the mouse as it was originally envisioned > would require re-writing software interfaces to best take > advantage of a keyboard used at the same time as the mouse > instead of each in relative isolation. Such software would > probably be terribly cumbersome for the 99.9% of the world who > doesn't have such a keyboard/mouse arrangement. The mouse could also be improved. Someone at the university I hang around devised a mouse with little motors in it, so you can actually feel a little bump as you move over a window border. You can create things like 'holes' or even 'walls' that the mouse can't get passed. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 16:34:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04513 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04495 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 29761 on Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:34:15 GMT; id XAA29761 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA00693; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:01:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970903010156.02882@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:01:56 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The GUI debate References: <18613.873164589@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <18613.873164589@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Sep 01, 1997 at 06:43:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard shared with us: > > I would suggest this a an ammendment, and not a replacement for > > sysinstall. For various reasons, sysinstall still has its place. > > I'll tell you the same thing I've told Peter several times: Send me > the code for this and I'll be happy to evaluate it. More work on > my plate I don't particularly need, guys. :-) True enough. But personally, I'd rather see some kind of agreed standard, before I jump down and start to program. I might, for instance, write a front end to edit your users and groups, but you don't get real integration with that. I'd have to start over again with each application. (That was really the point I was trying to make. I don't want to complain that the OS were to suck in any way, it just lacks some things. I was also under the impression that at least some of the people around here prefered a text interface over a graphical one.) I think Java would be good starting point. It may not be as fast and high-performance as C/C++, but that's really not that important for a GUI. Since most of the work has already been done in Java, you can leave that out. And it's cross-platform as well, which other toolkits may not be. But it would take some time to investigate. I think I'll look around a bit (I have no real idea what JavaBeans exactly are). Maybe after that, I'll open my big mouth again. :) Maybe I'l just write that user administration program as an example and ask people what they think of it. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 17:55:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07460 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07455 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.csd (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08612; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org by anpiel.csd (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA14158; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:53:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199709030053.RAA14158@anpiel.csd> To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: John Fieber , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 10:24:15 PDT." <19970901132415.28167@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:53:52 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > No, God doesn't really enter into the picture. Douglas > > Engelbart, who invented the mouse, intended for it to be used in > > conjunction with a one handed keyboard. In that configuration it > > proved to be a very effective input device, but with a pretty > > steep learning curve for people familiar with the old two handed > > keyboard. > > FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed > advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look interesting. Some years back I went over to Marina del Rey to visit with Jon Postel, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), to take a look at his work setup. Jon was probably THE last user of NLS, the On-Line System, which was the system created by Engelbart. I think the last PDP-10 that ISI had was kept running as a dinosaur for several years after all the others were gone, just to support IANA and NLS. NLS did use a standard keyboard. The notion was that NLS was set up as an outline system. Everything was structured as an outline, with an arbitrary number of items an arbitrary number of levels deep. Navigation through the outline was handled by means of the mouse and chord keyboard, at which Jon was quite adept (needless to say). However, it would be a mistake to think that the chord keyboard was used for substantive text input. NLS was set up as a system of mouse selection (point, click with the mouse) followed by a two-letter NLS command (ka-chunk, ka-chunk on the chord keyboard). So, a large part of an NLS session went point, click, ka-chunk, ka-chunk, point, click, ka-chunk, ka-chunk, and so on, without moving the hands off either device. When it came time for text input, though, life was different. Both hands came back to the main keyboard. I asked Jon what the dividing line was: how many characters did he have to type that would make him move back to the main keyboard? His answer: "About ten." The coding used on the chord keyboard was basically binary. It probably bore a very strong resemblance to five-level Baudot. This Blast From the Past has been brought to you by a Genuine Old Phart, accept no substitutes. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 18:28:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08720 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08715 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA26290; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:28:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 01:01:56 +0200." <19970903010156.02882@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 18:28:00 -0700 Message-ID: <26286.873250080@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe I'l just write that user administration program as an example > and ask people what they think of it. I think that would be a good start. Getting the UI right is actually the hardest part, and even if we provide a better underlying API for this at a lower level you could always retrofit it in later, after your proof-of-concept phase has proven it viable. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 19:47:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11673 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (root@stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11659 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.3) id DAA24425; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:17:45 +0100 (BST) From: Adrian Wontroba Message-Id: <199709030217.DAA24425@titus.stade.co.uk> Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-Reply-To: <199709020621.PAA01409@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Sep 2, 97 03:51:10 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:17:45 +0100 (BST) Cc: aw1@stade.co.uk, mike@smith.net.au, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Organization: Stade Computers Limited, UK X-Phone: (+44) 121 373 9546 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith wrote: > Hmm. I think I'll skip the film and re-read the book. > I've gotten in trouble before getting cross about the insane desire > that people have to seek "easier" versions of their questions, and > "easy" answers to them; I can smell it happening again 8) Smell - as in the kindling round the stake starting to take? -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 373 9546 Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users or see From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 20:11:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12589 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12584 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08004; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:10:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:10:36 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-Reply-To: <19970903010156.02882@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > I think Java would be good starting point. It may not be as fast > and high-performance as C/C++, but that's really not that important > for a GUI. Once the system is installed, java would be fine, but with current technology I fear that even a minimal runtime environment will instantly destroy any hope of retaining that nifty one-floppy install procedure. Of course, I would be pleased for someone to prove me wrong--I like programming in Java. :) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 2 23:29:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22155 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22141 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12695; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709030632.AAA12695@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter Korsten CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <19970831221230.08862@grendel.IAEhv.nl> References: <19970831221230.08862@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Conclusions? We don't allow no steenking conclusions here! Peter Korsten writes: > I think John Fieber made some comments that I can only agree with. > Wes Peters did so too. Please read their messages for more details. > > (This of course has nothing to do with them at least partially > agreeing with me. :) ) > > The point I was trying to make, is not whether NT is better or Unix > is. I know ftp.com is the busiest server in the world. I know that > FreeBSD usually performs better on the same platform. The discussion > has turned into a "why X is better than Y" and you're bound to lose > that on a FreeBSD mailing list. Well said. > Perhaps I should say that I really want an Amiga, but then with a > 500 Mhz Alpha chip. The Amiga had a pre-emptive multitasking OS > that ran in 256 Kb. Though some parts were a bit clumsy, the base > was very good. The basic type was a Node (ordered in a List), from > which you could derive (yes, object-orientation in C) a Task, a > Library, a Device or any system structure. You should take a careful look at BeOS. I think you'll like what you see. I've said several times that someday somebody was going to come along and design an OS from the ground up that learned important lessons from what both the Mac and UNIX workstations had to teach us. Who'dve thought it would be an ex-Apple CEO? I was betting on someone from Sun, but they can't seem to get Spring beyond the "interesting experiment" stage. If they'd just cave, write Spring for common PC architectures as well as SPARC, they'd probably be able to move onto a really good GUI. But that's Sun. > The GUI was good and getting better, so was the shell. ARexx was > the third interface. This altogether made a system that, as I think > of it, was better than Unix (despite it's excellent shell) or > Windows 95/NT 4.0 (despite it's GUI). The fact that not all > applications supported all functions of the system, doesn't make > the system less powerfull. BeOS has a pretty good shell (bash). Scripting languages, also straight from the UNIX world, include tcl and perl; but are rapidly becoming ubiquitous due to their association with WWW programming. The GUI is colorful and interesting without being the overblown mess that many X systems are, or the underblown mess that "Win" is. The filesystems are UNIX-like, and could probably use some research. Pluggable filesystems seem to be supported somewhat, although I'm not sure they've gotten much attention yet. Now that Be is working on BeOS x86, perhaps pluggable filesystems will become more important. > The Amiga has some functions that I really really miss in other > OS's. Writing your own installer application in some sort of > Lisp-like language - no need for InstallShield. Assigning logical > names to devices, directories or drives. Installing new devices or > filesystems while the system was running. > > But the market has been divided. You basically have MS, the Mac, > some Unixes and dedicated OS's, like real-time OS's (but they are > a niche market anyway). A niche market? Tell that to Wind River, who is now probably outselling Win95. ;^) What operating system is your toaster/microwave/dish washer running? > At the moment, a Unix server (probably any Unix server) is more > suited for something like an Internet-server than an NT server, be > it for mail, news, ftp or http. > > Trouble is, most non-Intel platforms will be having a hard time to > survive, simply because of the tremendous costs to build a new > plant. Intel is somewhat the Microsoft of the hardware world: they > could have released the Pentium II months earlier, but there simply > was no need. Alpha is your best bet in processor architectures, > as it comes to who survives Intel the longest. What company can > put own $1,000,000,000 for a new processor? Motorola. IBM. Hitachi. NEC. Fujitsu, now the world's second largest computer company, and very loud about it. etc. Of course, all of them but Motorola also make WinTel machines. Personally, I think it stupid that Moto and IBM didn't pick up support for NT on CHRP when MS dumped it; they're doing themselves a great disservice. AIX, bad as it is, is better than NT, but "will it run Word?" > As about GUI's, opinions differ and probably will be differing for > quite some time. In my view, a GUI is not something that you should > be able to configure to the max, it's a way of representing data > in a consistent way to the user. The book I read was the Amiga User > Interface Style Guide. Yes, there's a lot of psychology behind it > as well. That's something very difficult for a programmer. The Amiga Style Guide was quite good. I was an ST-head back in "the good old days," and the Flying Tramiel Brothers never sprang for an ST Style Guide. On the other hand, we had the "ST Professional GEM" articles by the guy who wrote the GEM resource kit, and they were excellent. The author, whose name I've forgotten, introduced me to Card, Moran, and Newell, the concept of diadetic memory, and just about everything else I ever learned about effective communication between a computer program and a human operator. He also suggested that *all* GUI programmers read and understand the concepts in the GUI-style volume of "Inside Macintosh." I wonder if the developers of Office 95/97 read it? > I also have the opinion that a computer should be easy to use. > Look, for instance, at an ATM. In the Netherlands, you put in your > card, type your secret code, select the amount of money, take your > card, take your money. In Belgium, you choose the amount of money > _before_ you enter your secret code. In the States, you get your > money before you get your card back - so Dutch people tend to forget > their card. Personally, I think the Dutch version is the most > logical sequence to get money from a machine. In the US, there are three or four different methods: the little ATMs in convenience stores and most airports don't take your card, you just swipe it through a reader and keep possession of it. That way you can't forget your card -- you never let go of it. Yay! The U.S. stays ahead on yet another technical forefront! ;^) > If you link it to personal computers, probably the easiest to use > is a Windows machine. I have told people how to configure dial-up > networking over the phone, people who didn't even know how to move > a window. It just wouldn't have been possible with a Unix machine. > The Mac is even more easy to use, but it has other problems. Now see, there you go making another of those sweeping statements that just aren't true! Take your average 50-year-old who hasn't used GUIs before, sit him or her before Win95, and they'll choke instantly. I had the same experience the first time I sat in front of a Mac. I knew computers; I was fluent with DEC TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RSX-11, RT-11, and VMS, several flavors of UNIX, and Harris VOS. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to even edit a simple document on the Macintosh, nor did the salesman at that time know how. > So, if you limit yourself to an environment that basically text- > oriented, you put yourself in a pretty small market. And you > can't provide the coupling to those popular applications that come > from Redmond, WA. And despite Motif and CDE, they aren't standard > like the prescribed standard of MS is. That depends -- Motif and CDE *are* standard on just about every commercial variant of UNIX these days. I mean the big guys, Sun, HP, etc. Now if CDE just included a real word processor, or at least had one available. I think most people who install Office(tm) on their Win machines are really only looking for Word, and even then don't need 75% of what Word gives them. If someone figured out the important 25%, it would go a long ways to making UNIX more palatable as an "only system" for a variety of workers who prefer UNIX in the first place. > If I look at FreeBSD, even sysinstall has it quirks. I always end > up pressing the wrong buttons and that's because the buttons (and > keys) keep changing functions. The "Cancel" button changes into > an "Install" button all of a sudden. > > Basically, that's what I want to say. I also realize that making > a good GUI is very difficult and takes tremendous resources. It > should be done with the other free Unixes, it's too big for just > FreeBSD. Well, perhaps not. ;^) > But I think that the hack-heads who do everything from a tty and > who have a lot of influence on the development of FreeBSD, should > consider the world outside who's in need of GUI's. As I've said before, the two areas in which UNIX shows its age the most is in the lack of overall integration of the networking model and the windowing model. UNIX was designed before either of these had become ubiquitous, both were just grafted on long after the fact. Despite that, it has become the world's reference point for TCP/IP applications, and for a while at least, the development point for most major developments in GUIs. I welcome a system that is truly better than UNIX at this with open arms, but a half-baked 16-bit windowing system grafted on top of a half-baked 16-bit near operating system, and then compiled with a 32-bit compiler and called the future by it's creator just isn't it. And as for the need of GUIs, FreeBSD has a number of other users to support as well. What about the people installing serial-console FreeBSD systems hundreds or even thousands of miles away? If we make a GUI-only installation, how do we support them? PC Anywhere for FreeBSD? I think not, thank you very little. And in the putting your money where your mouth is department: am I hearing a volunteer here? Ask not what FreeBSD can do for you, but rather what YOU can do for FreeBSD! (JFK, er, JKH, er...) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 00:03:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24546 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24522 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA12723; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:04:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:04:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709030704.BAA12723@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "John S. Dyson" , jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199709011515.LAA25718@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters wrote: [ Lot's of GUI design, and Microsoft stuff deleted. ] Jamie Bowden said: % ONe thing to remember when designing the interface for any program, % never make me have to use my mouse to use a feature. If I can't do % it without leaving the keyboard, I probably won't. If it's % important, and I can't do it without a mouse, you just lost a % customer. I have spoken to many non CS types who hate being forced % to use a mouse as well. If you want to put all your cool features on % buttons and mouse driven menus, go for it, but make them accessable % via keystroke as well. John S. Dyson writes: > I am a very serious computer user, developer, and HATE to use the > mouse or move my hands from the keyboard in any way. If God would > have meant for us to use a mouse, he would have given us three hands > :-). I think that my aversion to the mouse has to do with being a > touch-typist. In my case, a mouse is used as a "mode switch" alot > like the control or alt keys. It entails needing to reorient my > hands on the keyboard after use. And I'm a superficial computer user who never does anything with his computer but net-surf. Actually, I'm writing this email message in Emacs VMail mode because it is the only Email package I know of that lets me do everything I want with email without moving my hands from the keyboard. On the other hand, when I'm off web-surfing with Navigator, I have my hand on the mouse all the time. You've both missed the obvious distinction that the human being in front of the computer screen has two modes: creating and editing. When creating, as in writing a letter or some source code, you want the tool to flow along with you, to be very transparent. When editing, you want the tool to help you in jumping around, moving things, etc. If you were to, for instance, create a graphical tool for system administrators to create and manage user accounts and groups, it would be waste of time writing extra code to support keyboard navigation for something that is an inherently graphical task. For instance, the "gesture" for adding a user to a group is to "copy" the user from the "all users" view to the "group: engineering" view, you simply use the mouse movements for copy, drag, and drop. To expect *any* user to use tab and arrow keys to select a user, change focus to the group frame, and drop, is really quite silly. The entire idea of such a tool is to enable "direct manipulation" of the objects; if you don't want to directly manipulate the objects, use a more appropriate tool, such as vipw. In general, sweeping generalizations such as "never make the user take his hands off the keyboard" are useless. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 00:10:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25058 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25049 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA25231; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:10:08 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA08837; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:39:57 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970903163957.09017@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:39:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyway to get connect speed with usermode ppp/tun0 device? References: <199709030659.QAA00291@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709030659.QAA00291@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:29:44PM +0930 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to chat) On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:29:44PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: >> >>> The speed is specified as 'baud'; in fact, it's bit per second. > > It is correct to specify the speed as "baud" in conjunction with a > single-wire serial interface. I suppose you mean a two-wire interface. Sure, you can use the term baud if that's the speed talking about. Here we're talking about a 2400 baud interface. It's transferring 38,400 bits per second. OK, you might say "this interface is between the serial interface and the modem". And yes, over this interface the speed is 38,400 baud as well as 38,400 bps. But that's \fIvery\fP misleading, and there's no need for it. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 00:40:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA26604 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26599 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00286; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709030739.AAA00286@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: John Fieber cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 22:10:36 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 00:39:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sure my "floppy" holds about 600mb -- fill that up 8) In other words, is nice to have a unified install program however given that we now have bootable CDROMS I don't see why everyone should be subjected to the least common denominator. Amancio >From The Desk Of John Fieber : > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > > > I think Java would be good starting point. It may not be as fast > > and high-performance as C/C++, but that's really not that important > > for a GUI. > > Once the system is installed, java would be fine, but with > current technology I fear that even a minimal runtime environment > will instantly destroy any hope of retaining that nifty > one-floppy install procedure. Of course, I would be pleased for > someone to prove me wrong--I like programming in Java. :) > > -john > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:10:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27952 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27946 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04075 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:40:23 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00206; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:55 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709030759.RAA00206@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Amancio Hasty cc: John Fieber , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 00:39:42 MST." <199709030739.AAA00286@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:29:53 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sure my "floppy" holds about 600mb -- fill that up 8) > > In other words, is nice to have a unified install program however > given that we now have bootable CDROMS I don't see why everyone should > be subjected to the least common denominator. Because resources do not exist to manufacture more than one d(en)ominator. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:13:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28069 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28056 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04101 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:43:08 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00241; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:36:52 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709030806.RAA00241@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyway to get connect speed with usermode ppp/tun0 device? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:39:57 +0930." <19970903163957.09017@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:36:51 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (moved to chat) > > On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:29:44PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: > >> > >>> The speed is specified as 'baud'; in fact, it's bit per second. > > > > It is correct to specify the speed as "baud" in conjunction with a > > single-wire serial interface. > > I suppose you mean a two-wire interface. No. A two wire interface can transport four values per baud. > Sure, you can use the term > baud if that's the speed talking about. Here we're talking about a > 2400 baud interface. It's transferring 38,400 bits per second. Not by any definition I can comprehend. You have a single wire serial interface, clocked at 38,400 transitions per second. That is 38,400 baud no matter which way you look at it. To achieve 38,400 bps at 2400 baud you need a signalling mechanism with 65536 possible values, or 16 bits of significance. This puts you in the high-end trellis-encoding market, certainly not on good ol' EIA-232. > OK, you might say "this interface is between the serial interface and > the modem". And yes, over this interface the speed is 38,400 baud as > well as 38,400 bps. But that's \fIvery\fP misleading, and there's no > need for it. I don't understand. stty can only report on the configuration of the serial port, and it does that correctly. It has no way of knowing what the modem thinks its doing; as I have already pointed out it is impossible to know what the modem is "really" doing at any point in time anyway. "Yes, I do know what 'baud' means." 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:24:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28645 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28636 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA26497; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:24:29 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA09200; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:54:18 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970903175417.21095@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:54:18 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyway to get connect speed with usermode ppp/tun0 device? References: <19970903163957.09017@lemis.com> <199709030806.RAA00241@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709030806.RAA00241@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 05:36:51PM +0930 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 05:36:51PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: >> (moved to chat) >> >> On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:29:44PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> The speed is specified as 'baud'; in fact, it's bit per second. >>> >>> It is correct to specify the speed as "baud" in conjunction with a >>> single-wire serial interface. >> >> I suppose you mean a two-wire interface. > > No. A two wire interface can transport four values per baud. That depends how it's modulated. >> Sure, you can use the term >> baud if that's the speed talking about. Here we're talking about a >> 2400 baud interface. It's transferring 38,400 bits per second. > > Not by any definition I can comprehend. You have a single wire serial > interface, clocked at 38,400 transitions per second. Look down the wire. > That is 38,400 baud no matter which way you look at it. To achieve > 38,400 bps at 2400 baud you need a signalling mechanism with 65536 > possible values, or 16 bits of significance. This puts you in the > high-end trellis-encoding market, certainly not on good ol' EIA-232. In the context we're talking about, nobody's talking about good old RS-232. We're talking about a modem link. The bauds only make sense when they're not bits per second; otherwise they're just obfuscation. >> OK, you might say "this interface is between the serial interface and >> the modem". And yes, over this interface the speed is 38,400 baud as >> well as 38,400 bps. But that's \fIvery\fP misleading, and there's no >> need for it. > > I don't understand. stty can only report on the configuration of the > serial port, and it does that correctly. But misleadingly. And for no good reason. > It has no way of knowing what the modem thinks its doing; as I have > already pointed out it is impossible to know what the modem is > "really" doing at any point in time anyway. You said that you didn't know a way to extract the information. That's not quite the same thing. If I could dig my modem docco out of one of this maze of twisted boxes, all alike, I could check on that, but wasn't there an S register that contains this information? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:35:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29775 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29770 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id DAA00405; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:35:28 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199709030835.DAA00405@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709030704.BAA12723@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Sep 3, 97 01:04:56 am" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:35:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: jamie@itribe.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters said: > > John S. Dyson writes: > > I am a very serious computer user, developer, and HATE to use the > > mouse or move my hands from the keyboard in any way. If God would > > have meant for us to use a mouse, he would have given us three hands > > :-). I think that my aversion to the mouse has to do with being a > > touch-typist. In my case, a mouse is used as a "mode switch" alot > > like the control or alt keys. It entails needing to reorient my > > hands on the keyboard after use. > > And I'm a superficial computer user who never does anything with his > computer but net-surf. > That is suprising :-). > > In general, sweeping generalizations such as "never make the user take > his hands off the keyboard" are useless. ;^) > Actually, I have been trying to show that a GUI only environment, with poor character mode support doesn't solve everything. I am just as (un) comfortable using X when debugging the kernel, as browsing large files trying to study source code when limited to an 80x25 screen. Even when using X, the editor that I am using is fully functional, without pain, with or without the mouse. Isn't the VC++ editor or Microsoft Word kind of a pain to use without the mouse? I have a choice of "to mouse" or "not to mouse" under U**X. The only system that seems to have gotten almost everything wrong (IMO) with very few effective or low cost workarounds is the Windows (NT) development environment. The VB environment is incomprehensible with standard components that aren't. The seamless upgrade from VB4 to VB5 isn't/wasn't. Components developed with the "standard" OLE linkage mechanism -- .ocx files quit working. Geesh, the type info is passed around, and it didn't work. It is pretty obvious that they are not designing or thinking things through before shipping product. Also, those silly things (.ocx's) can pollute your registry during development if you aren't careful about cleaning up. Another thing, if you are developing a VC project, and need to modify it, or start from scratch on a new one -- it is a real challenge to go through the menu hierarchy to figure out all of the options used. It seems that Microsoft would have done alot better if they could have stayed away from proprietary file formats for projects info, etc -- so you could see what is really going on. Those proprietary file formats (I think) are a result of forgetting about text based files -- that can be edited by editors such as VI, or somesuch. It was interesting that on my last project at AT&T, where I used command line VC++, nmake, and VI for my part of the application -- always got things done on time, and things just worked. The poor sucker who tried to use the GUI VB, VC++ environment had nothing but troubles. The GUI hides so much about what is going on, he never could figure things out without alot of pain. He wouldn't listen to me and throw out the GUI stuff, and just learn about what is going on for real to get rid of the colorful chaffe. Suffice it to say, his part of the project never worked reliably. (The above is an anecdote about the way that GUI environments can and often do obscure the development process.) I admit that he wasn't an NT programming expert, but I think that he would have made alot more progress if he would have got rid of much of the dubious "help" that Microsoft gave him :-). One of the great things about X is that it integrates the use of the xterms (or whatever) seamlessly with the GUI enviroment. You have the flexibility of specifying which (virtual) display (or computer) that your apps run on, and no such flexibility comes easily on the other "popular" GUI environment. (The bogus (silly) telnet that comes with NT doesn't count -- it doesn't even send resize info to the server.) Of course, you can buy lots of components in order to bring NT closer to the level of a free U**X, but that makes the "cheap" NT license of about $300 end up being over $1K-2K. And then, on that "cheap" NT machine, try doing 2 or 3 compiles in parallel even on a PentiumPro... Oh yea, you want more than 10 connections? Then it costs even more -- on a per client basis... Summing up my position, when using X windows on a reasonably good performing U**X clone, you can adjust the user interface as needed. Almost any argument about the disadvantages about the X windows user interface can be answered with a user-mode, non-privileged solution. YOU have control under X windows, and the interfaces are fully documented (or at least available in source code form.) You are pretty much stuck with what Microsoft gives you on NT, however. They dictate how you interact on their OSes. (Sure would like mouse pointer focus on NT :-), for example). I used to have a very liberal attitude about Microsoft, until I had to develop code on their platform. Now, I know why people often don't like their platform. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:41:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00205 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00198 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04291 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:11:00 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00360; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:04:13 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709030834.SAA00360@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyway to get connect speed with usermode ppp/tun0 device? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:54:18 +0930." <19970903175417.21095@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 18:04:12 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> It is correct to specify the speed as "baud" in conjunction with a > >>> single-wire serial interface. > >> > >> I suppose you mean a two-wire interface. > > > > No. A two wire interface can transport four values per baud. > > That depends how it's modulated. Ok; you get to wear the pedant's hat this round. > >> Sure, you can use the term > >> baud if that's the speed talking about. Here we're talking about a > >> 2400 baud interface. It's transferring 38,400 bits per second. > > > > Not by any definition I can comprehend. You have a single wire serial > > interface, clocked at 38,400 transitions per second. > > Look down the wire. Huh? > > That is 38,400 baud no matter which way you look at it. To achieve > > 38,400 bps at 2400 baud you need a signalling mechanism with 65536 > > possible values, or 16 bits of significance. This puts you in the > > high-end trellis-encoding market, certainly not on good ol' EIA-232. > > In the context we're talking about, nobody's talking about good old > RS-232. We're talking about a modem link. The bauds only make sense > when they're not bits per second; otherwise they're just obfuscation. But you are. You are talking about the output from 'stty', which was applied to an RS-232 interface. If you want to know what the modem link is doing, ask the modem; there's no way in hell the host is going to know. > > I don't understand. stty can only report on the configuration of the > > serial port, and it does that correctly. > > But misleadingly. And for no good reason. In what way is reporting the current configuration of the hardware misleading? > > It has no way of knowing what the modem thinks its doing; as I have > > already pointed out it is impossible to know what the modem is > > "really" doing at any point in time anyway. > > You said that you didn't know a way to extract the information. > That's not quite the same thing. If I could dig my modem docco out of > one of this maze of twisted boxes, all alike, I could check on that, > but wasn't there an S register that contains this information? No. You are thinking "I will usurp communications with the modem, send the escape sequence to swap to command mode, send a modem command to extract the current link state, and return to connect mode". This will not work because : - You will inject the escape sequence into the outbound data stream, corrupting the traffic currently passing through. Depending on the application and the configuration of the modem at the other end, you may force _it_ into command mode as well, effectively killing the link. - While you are in command mode, the behaviour of the modem with regard to data coming from the other end is undefined; some will attempt to flowcontrol the link, others will discard data, still others will fail to communicate at all, causing the other end to drop the link. - If a retrain operation is in process, you may obtain stale data. - Modems do not generally maintain statistical information on things such as requested retransmission rates, which are necessary to obtain useful throughput figures. In some cases you can reliably extract the information you require; if the modem in question is "intelligently managed" and you can talk to the management module, ie. it is rackmounted or has separate command and data ports, you can talk OOB and sometimes obtain the data you require. Sorry. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 01:55:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00900 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de [160.45.24.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00895 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Wed, 3 Sep 97 10:55 MEST Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id ; Wed, 3 Sep 97 10:55 MET DST Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17906; Wed, 3 Sep 97 09:28:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 09:28:09 +0200 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9709030728.AA17906@wavehh.hanse.de> To: grog@lemis.COM Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: One-hand Keyboard (Re: Microsoft the GUI King) Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.chat References: <199709011547.KAA00888@dyson.iquest.net> <19970902104153.54244@lemis.com> Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> FWIW, I have seen one-handed keyboards of the sort Engelbart proposed >> advertised in the backs of pooter magazines....they look >> interesting. >How do they work? The German (at that time computer) magazine c't once had an article about such a keyboard, built in Isreal, if I remember correctly. It had a number of "main" keys for your fingers (4 or 5), which had to be pressed in combinations to get normal characters. Modifier keys were normal seperate keys. The tester claimed he could imagine becoming fluent with it in a short time. C't also published a DOS keyboard driver to emulate the same keyboard mapping with the num block on a PS/2 keyboard (where of course the placement of key's is not optimal). C't sends out photocopies of old articles for a nominal fee. I seriously doubt it can make emacs users happy, or users of any syntactically rich programming language, but that's probably a matter of choosing the right mapping and right placement of modifier keys. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin.Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg/Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 02:32:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02731 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02726 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00464; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709030918.CAA00464@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Mike Smith cc: John Fieber , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:29:53 +0930." <199709030759.RAA00206@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 02:18:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Actually, if the user base increases due to a very wonderful and colorful install package perhaps we will have the problem of too many programmers wanting to hack the install package. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Mike Smith : > > Sure my "floppy" holds about 600mb -- fill that up 8) > > > > In other words, is nice to have a unified install program however > > given that we now have bootable CDROMS I don't see why everyone should > > be subjected to the least common denominator. > > Because resources do not exist to manufacture more than one > d(en)ominator. > > mike > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 02:42:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03102 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03096 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA27683; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:42:02 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA09477; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:12:01 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970903191200.16485@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:12:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyway to get connect speed with usermode ppp/tun0 device? References: <19970903175417.21095@lemis.com> <199709030834.SAA00360@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709030834.SAA00360@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 06:04:12PM +0930 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 06:04:12PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: >>>>> It is correct to specify the speed as "baud" in conjunction with a >>>>> single-wire serial interface. >>>> >>>> I suppose you mean a two-wire interface. >>> >>> No. A two wire interface can transport four values per baud. >> >> That depends how it's modulated. > > Ok; you get to wear the pedant's hat this round. Thanks. You can have it back later. >>>> Sure, you can use the term >>>> baud if that's the speed talking about. Here we're talking about a >>>> 2400 baud interface. It's transferring 38,400 bits per second. >>> >>> Not by any definition I can comprehend. You have a single wire serial >>> interface, clocked at 38,400 transitions per second. >> >> Look down the wire. > > Huh? What do you see in that direction? >>> That is 38,400 baud no matter which way you look at it. To achieve >>> 38,400 bps at 2400 baud you need a signalling mechanism with 65536 >>> possible values, or 16 bits of significance. This puts you in the >>> high-end trellis-encoding market, certainly not on good ol' EIA-232. >> >> In the context we're talking about, nobody's talking about good old >> RS-232. We're talking about a modem link. The bauds only make sense >> when they're not bits per second; otherwise they're just obfuscation. > > But you are. You are talking about the output from 'stty', which was > applied to an RS-232 interface. If you want to know what the modem link > is doing, ask the modem; there's no way in hell the host is going to > know. No, but it shouldn't mislead by using terms which only make sense with modems. Do you use the term 'baud' with PLIP? Why not? The term 'bit per second' is the only one you need with RS-232. >>> I don't understand. stty can only report on the configuration of the >>> serial port, and it does that correctly. >> >> But misleadingly. And for no good reason. > > In what way is reporting the current configuration of the hardware > misleading? In the terminology. >>> It has no way of knowing what the modem thinks its doing; as I have >>> already pointed out it is impossible to know what the modem is >>> "really" doing at any point in time anyway. >> >> You said that you didn't know a way to extract the information. >> That's not quite the same thing. If I could dig my modem docco out of >> one of this maze of twisted boxes, all alike, I could check on that, >> but wasn't there an S register that contains this information? > > No. You are thinking "I will usurp communications with the modem, send > the escape sequence to swap to command mode, send a modem command to > extract the current link state, and return to connect mode". Well, not I. It wasn't my idea, and anyway it would be done by the PPP software, which can guess better when it's safe (sort of). I'm just the pedant of the day, pointing out one way that you can get some kind of data of dubious value. > This will not work because : > > - You will inject the escape sequence into the outbound data stream, > corrupting the traffic currently passing through. Depending on the > application and the configuration of the modem at the other end, you > may force _it_ into command mode as well, effectively killing the > link. I don't see that happening. A couple of incoming packets might get munged, that's all. > - While you are in command mode, the behaviour of the modem with > regard to data coming from the other end is undefined; some will > attempt to flowcontrol the link, others will discard data, still > others will fail to communicate at all, causing the other end to drop > the link. Well, that's the risk you take. > - If a retrain operation is in process, you may obtain stale data. Yup. > - Modems do not generally maintain statistical information on things > such as requested retransmission rates, which are necessary to > obtain useful throughput figures. Reasonable. It's not much of an indication, anyway. Once a day you take a snap reading, and try to determine something about line quality as a result. Doesn't make too much sense. > In some cases you can reliably extract the information you require; if > the modem in question is "intelligently managed" and you can talk to > the management module, ie. it is rackmounted or has separate command > and data ports, you can talk OOB and sometimes obtain the data you > require. Sure, that's a whole different level of information. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 03:03:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA03870 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03864; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.7/8.8.6) id MAA05251; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:01:50 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <19970903120148.07978@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:01:48 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Wes Peters , jamie@itribe.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) References: <199709030704.BAA12723@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199709030835.DAA00405@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <199709030835.DAA00405@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 03:35:28AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To everyone who's been debating this back and forth: I was involved yesterday in a short debate/arguement with some of our management team about which spreadsheet we should be using (in a engineering R&D environement). They were worried about using Excel/Quattro Pro, and my comment was that if they were worried about the name on the box then they had missed the point that we should rather be using a mathemtics/statistics environment (e.g Matlab/SAS) for most of our work. But it got me thinking about analogies... Anyway, to get to the point: Compare OSs/software/hardware with cars. Most people are happy to drive a little Ford Fiesta, or a VW or a Toyota (or something similar). A nice little runabout built in the millions, where the salesmen only asks "What colour do you want?". That's the market Windows95 is aimed at... NT is for the guys who say "1300cc, no thanks. I'll have the 2l with fuel injection. Blue." Little bit more power under the hood, but the same body. Some people want a luxury model, and they end up with the PPro200/AWE64/ 24xCD-ROM/17" monitor... but it still only gets them from A to B, although it is a much better trip. Unix is for the 4x4's... the guys who like to take the car out somewhere 3 days from the nearest garage and dont want it breaking down, and if it does then they dont want to pop the hood to discover "CAUTION. Not not open. No user servicable components inside." stickers. I use FreeBSD because I'm one of those people who like to drive an old, small car that I dont have to wash every morning, that I can fix with a few simple tools when it does break down, which shouldn't be very often, and doesn't cost me a fortune to keep going... I like my computer the same. But, to draw a conclusion, there is no point in trying to make a Ford Fiesta which can be serviced by any "dumb blonde"... you're wasting your money. You can also drive a Ford Fiesta around the world, but you'll spend a lot of time fixing it. When people agree on one standard design for a car, they'll start using one standard OS the next day... Ponder the idea for awhile and you'll see a lot of sense in the analogy, especially when it comes to standardised components. When it comes to the user interface, however, you find that most cars are fairly similar... interesting isn't it. But the interface is carefully designed to fit the style of working. The UNIX command line is in many ways the same as the levers and stuff on a Model T Ford... it comes out of a time past. However computers dont behave like cars... Something which has been touched on in this thread, and I think is the real issue, is that computers essentially offer you a set of tools which you plug together like Lego, to build a machine which does the job for you. Unix works like that, but to move it into a GUI environment you have to figure out how to discribe the process of sticking the blocks together in such a way that it is flexible and understandable. Lego doesn't come with a manual for how to put the blocks together, or tell you that you can only stick blue blocks onto blue blocks. Windows doesn't work like this. You buy the space ship or the castle preassembled, and just play with it. If you want to debate/discuss/move forward, then we should rather be thinking about how to make the Unix tool model fit into a world of appelets, windows and hyperlinks (i.e. a distributed object computing environment). Think I just overspent on my 2c budget... -Jeremy -- .sig.gz From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 04:51:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA07430 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod14.logic.it [195.120.151.30] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07422 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11739 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Sep 1997 19:56:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:56:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: <199708220538.XAA07669@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > Thanks again to the wonderfully "not normal" people on -chat. > > Yeah, this is a pretty fun group, isn't it? Even when we're > arguing politics, it stays fairly polite. Yes, really funny. I *do* love it :-) I've been following the late debate about schooling but you guys use too much slang for a foreigner (like me) to understand fully. > We kind of tend to be an eggheaded lot, though. ;^) Here in Italy we have a far more disapproving term regarding technicians: "a man who pushes keys". Could I say "key-hitter" ? :-) > > "This snakeskin jacket symbolizes my individuality and belief > > in personal freedom". > > Snakeskin? For me, it would just symbolize my dislike of > reptilians. They remind me too much of a VP I used to work for. > ;^) It's a quote from my cult movie, David Lynch's "Wild at heart", but nobody seems to get it ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. UNIX _is_ user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 06:15:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11117 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11110 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09153; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:15:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:15:14 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Amancio Hasty cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-Reply-To: <199709030739.AAA00286@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Sure my "floppy" holds about 600mb -- fill that up 8) > > In other words, is nice to have a unified install program however > given that we now have bootable CDROMS I don't see why everyone should > be subjected to the least common denominator. I think the word "common" is the key point here. It is fine to have a glitzy solution for the minority with bootable CDROMs, but if development of the single floppy install suffers as a result, far more users will be lost that gained. For the tasks involved in getting the system installed, a bitmaped GUI offers precious little except glitz, relative to the implementation cost. Once the system is installed and the configuration tasks take over, we have a different story, but we also have in installed system to run off of so the issue is moot. (Except, of course, for systems without graphics capaility.) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 06:22:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11471 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11460 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09160; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:21:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-Reply-To: <199709030918.CAA00464@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Actually, if the user base increases due to a very wonderful and > colorful install package perhaps we will have the problem of too > many programmers wanting to hack the install package. So we abandon a majority of our user base because they can't install, then gain a new user base because of a glitzy install package? Just indulge me for a moment: what, exactly, is wrong with the user base we currently have? They don't have cool enough hardware? Speaking of uncool hardware, I recently installed FreeBSD on a 386SL laptop with 6 megabytes of ram and an 80 megabyte hard drive. The formerly useless piece of hardware is now very cool in my mind. :) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 06:30:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11949 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod15.logic.it [195.120.151.31] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11835 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1174 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 1997 13:16:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:16:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <199709030632.AAA12695@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Ask not what FreeBSD can do for you, but rather what YOU can do > for FreeBSD! (JFK, er, JKH, er...) Wes, I think I'll submit it to the Quote of the Day mailing list... ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. UNIX _is_ user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 08:17:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17818 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17813 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24445; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Wes Peters cc: "John S. Dyson" , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <199709030704.BAA12723@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > If you were to, for instance, create a graphical tool for system > administrators to create and manage user accounts and groups, it would > be waste of time writing extra code to support keyboard navigation for > something that is an inherently graphical task. For instance, the > "gesture" for adding a user to a group is to "copy" the user from the > "all users" view to the "group: engineering" view, you simply use the > mouse movements for copy, drag, and drop. To expect *any* user to use > tab and arrow keys to select a user, change focus to the group frame, > and drop, is really quite silly. To expect *every* user to use the mouse to do the same is almost as silly. Besides, that's what accellerator keys are for. One Alt-key to select the user list, page-up/page down (or even better, start typing the name), you get the idea. And having done stuff like that, I can tell you that if your GUI toolkit supports it, this kind of stuff is trivial to add. I've had plenty of mice die on me while in use (Las Vegas is a rather dusty environment), and the ability to funtion without a mouse is, for me, essential. I can even do just about everything I ever need to do on Win95 without a mouse. Then again, just so that I don't have to take my fingers off the keyboard, I bought an IBM Trackpoint II keyboard to use at home. Now the question is, how to convince them to get me one at work :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 08:43:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19145 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19135 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA00113; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:39:06 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:39:06 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Wes Peters cc: Peter Korsten , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <199709030632.AAA12695@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Conclusions? We don't allow no steenking conclusions here! > [snip] > > At the moment, a Unix server (probably any Unix server) is more > > suited for something like an Internet-server than an NT server, be > > it for mail, news, ftp or http. > > > > Trouble is, most non-Intel platforms will be having a hard time to > > survive, simply because of the tremendous costs to build a new > > plant. Intel is somewhat the Microsoft of the hardware world: they > > could have released the Pentium II months earlier, but there simply > > was no need. Alpha is your best bet in processor architectures, > > as it comes to who survives Intel the longest. What company can > > put own $1,000,000,000 for a new processor? > > Motorola. IBM. Hitachi. NEC. Fujitsu, now the world's second largest > computer company, and very loud about it. etc. Of course, all of them > but Motorola also make WinTel machines. Personally, I think it stupid > that Moto and IBM didn't pick up support for NT on CHRP when MS dumped > it; they're doing themselves a great disservice. AIX, bad as it is, is > better than NT, but "will it run Word?" Well, the rumour goes that MS wanted 300M for continuing to support PPC in future versions. It seems they didn't consider it worth that amount of money? [another snip.] Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 09:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21287 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21277 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id LAA13184; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:24:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970903112429.34614@pmr.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:24:29 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: chat list Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <199709030632.AAA12695@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 06:39:06PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 06:39:06PM +0300, Narvi wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Conclusions? We don't allow no steenking conclusions here! > > > > [snip] > > > Motorola. IBM. Hitachi. NEC. Fujitsu, now the world's second largest > > computer company, and very loud about it. etc. Of course, all of them > > but Motorola also make WinTel machines. Personally, I think it stupid > > that Moto and IBM didn't pick up support for NT on CHRP when MS dumped > > it; they're doing themselves a great disservice. AIX, bad as it is, is > > better than NT, but "will it run Word?" > > Well, the rumour goes that MS wanted 300M for continuing to support PPC in > future versions. It seems they didn't consider it worth that amount of > money? Would you? I know I certainly wouldn't. :-) I had the "opportunity" to run NT on some PPC systems while still at IBM and I have to say I didn't like it any more on those systems than I do on Intel systems. -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 10:33:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25310 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25301 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA00918; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:14:04 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:14:04 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Bob Willcox cc: chat list Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <19970903112429.34614@pmr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Bob Willcox wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 06:39:06PM +0300, Narvi wrote: > > > > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > Conclusions? We don't allow no steenking conclusions here! > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > Motorola. IBM. Hitachi. NEC. Fujitsu, now the world's second largest > > > computer company, and very loud about it. etc. Of course, all of them > > > but Motorola also make WinTel machines. Personally, I think it stupid > > > that Moto and IBM didn't pick up support for NT on CHRP when MS dumped > > > it; they're doing themselves a great disservice. AIX, bad as it is, is > > > better than NT, but "will it run Word?" > > > > Well, the rumour goes that MS wanted 300M for continuing to support PPC in > > future versions. It seems they didn't consider it worth that amount of > > money? > > Would you? I know I certainly wouldn't. :-) > No, I wouldn't. 300M is a whole mountain of chips you have to sell to get it back which you can otherwise spend on developing even better chips. > I had the "opportunity" to run NT on some PPC systems while still at IBM > and I have to say I didn't like it any more on those systems than I do > on Intel systems. I'd bet it's all the same on all platforms. And I am still trying to find a way of buying a Motorola MTX board :-( Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > > -- > Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread > bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. > Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 10:45:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26073 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (mod1.logic.it [195.120.151.17] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26066 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1174 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 1997 13:16:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:16:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate In-Reply-To: <199709030632.AAA12695@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Ask not what FreeBSD can do for you, but rather what YOU can do > for FreeBSD! (JFK, er, JKH, er...) Wes, I think I'll submit it to the Quote of the Day mailing list... ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. UNIX _is_ user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 11:44:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29205 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29200 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04459; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709031844.LAA04459@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: John Fieber cc: Mike Smith , Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 08:21:57 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:44:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of John Fieber : > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Actually, if the user base increases due to a very wonderful and > > colorful install package perhaps we will have the problem of too > > many programmers wanting to hack the install package. > > So we abandon a majority of our user base because they can't > install, then gain a new user base because of a glitzy install > package? Just indulge me for a moment: what, exactly, is wrong > with the user base we currently have? They don't have cool > enough hardware? Nothing is wrong with the existing user base -- they serve a pre-historic purpose 8) Jokes aside, I am not saying that we should abandon completly the curses base package rather that is perhaps time to start thinking of an out of the box experience style install program for FreeBSD. > Speaking of uncool hardware, I recently installed FreeBSD on a > 386SL laptop with 6 megabytes of ram and an 80 megabyte hard > drive. The formerly useless piece of hardware is now very cool > in my mind. :) What is a 386sl ? 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 12:17:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01070 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01063 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09815; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:17:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:17:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-Reply-To: <199709031844.LAA04459@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > What is a 386sl ? 8) Low power version of the 386sx. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 12:40:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02224 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02170 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04881; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709031939.MAA04881@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: John Fieber cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 14:17:31 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:39:47 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I was just joking however I got to admit that I haven't tought about the 386 platforms in a couple of years --- currently eye balling the next generation of CPUs with 64bit PCI running at 66Mhz and of course the AGP port - the CPU will be running at 400Mhz. Just looking forward to cool 3d and to setup cool video sub-systems --- my last contract involved 2 video capture boards and for the next rev level of the system it calls for audio / video conferencing -- forgot to mention : the project was for a HMD/audio system for surgeons to use and talk to other surgeons while they watch the surgeon operate. We must certainly can build a two video capture solution with no sweat for FreeBSD. So we have two extremes and is not very clear to me which one can bring in more benefit to FreeBSD. At any rate, both paradigm can peacefully co-exist: curses based applications and X based applications the two need not be mutually exclusive. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of John Fieber : > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > What is a 386sl ? 8) > > Low power version of the 386sx. > > -john > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 13:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04602 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04594 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 27226 on Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:20:48 GMT; id UAA27226 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00558; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:04:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970903220427.23767@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:04:27 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate References: <199709030739.AAA00286@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 08:15:14AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber shared with us: > On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Sure my "floppy" holds about 600mb -- fill that up 8) > > > > In other words, is nice to have a unified install program however > > given that we now have bootable CDROMS I don't see why everyone should > > be subjected to the least common denominator. > > I think the word "common" is the key point here. It is fine to > have a glitzy solution for the minority with bootable CDROMs, but > if development of the single floppy install suffers as a result, > far more users will be lost that gained. The two - text install and graphical install - aren't mutually exclusive. If I may draw our friends from Redmond, WA into the picture again, they start with a text install (on three floppies) and only after that start with the CD-ROM and the graphics. (That's when you have to fill in how many licenses you have bought :( ). - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 13:55:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06813 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06801 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA14128; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:54:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: John Fieber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:39:47 PDT." <199709031939.MAA04881@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 13:54:47 -0700 Message-ID: <14125.873320087@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > At any rate, both paradigm can peacefully co-exist: curses based > applications and X based applications the two need not be > mutually exclusive. It's all a moot point in any case since nobody is *writing* all these nifty X based applications. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 14:00:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07121 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07113 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06102 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:00:10 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <340DEAA0.763@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 15:54:24 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Executor for FreeBSD? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FWIW, I asked ARDI for a native FreeBSD version of Executor some weeks ago. More than receptive, they said it would probably take a while but that they consider it very interesting! Perhaps it's their way of preparing a port for Rhapsody? Hope they finish it before I graduate (again :-) ). cheers, Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 14:30:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08673 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08591 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id QAA15137; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:26:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970903162652.21248@pmr.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:26:52 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: pechter@lakewood.com Cc: chat list Subject: Re: Conclusion to "NT vs. Unix" debate Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <19970903112429.34614@pmr.com> <199709032032.QAA05960@i4got.lakewood.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <199709032032.QAA05960@i4got.lakewood.com>; from Bill Pechter on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:32:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 04:32:53PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I had the "opportunity" to run NT on some PPC systems while still at IBM > > and I have to say I didn't like it any more on those systems than I do > > on Intel systems. > > > > -- > > Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread > > bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. > > Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > > > > Geez, Bob... why not a CHEAP AIX pc... Well, we did run AIX on it (I was a member of the 6 person team that did the port of AIX 4.1 to the first PPC) and they still do, its just not called a PC and is marketed as a workstation instead (i.e., different channels and higher margins). There was also Solaris running on it for awhile. From my point of view at the time it seemed apparent that politics were a major problem with IBM's attempts to get PPC into the PC market. With the demise of the PPS (Power Personal Systems) division so went all hopes of a PPC based PC from IBM. :-( > > Actually, I wish they would've done a real nice OS/2 and Warp Server for > the PPC. More politics, of course. The OS/2 on PPC debacle (Mach 3.0 microkernel based, aka Workplace OS) in my opinion had alot to do with the failure of PPS. Without OS/2 running on the PPCs (only AIX, Solaris, & NT at the time), IBM refused to market them into the PC channels. Consequently, PPS had no products to sell and they failed to make their business plan -- they were history. Note that all of this is just my opinion. I certainly don't speak for IBM...never did. -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 14:37:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09104 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09098 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-11.cybercom.net [209.21.137.11]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA18422 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970903173303.009f0e10@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:33:03 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-Reply-To: <19970903220427.23767@grendel.IAEhv.nl> References: <199709030739.AAA00286@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:04 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Peter Korsten wrote: >The two - text install and graphical install - aren't mutually >exclusive. If I may draw our friends from Redmond, WA into the >picture again, they start with a text install (on three floppies) >and only after that start with the CD-ROM and the graphics. That would be my thought -- not that the installation program has to fit on a floppy. (Nice, but not essential.) But the boot floppy (or floppies) should have enough to bootstrap the CD-ROM, which could have something more lavish. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 14:39:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09269 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09261 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05179 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19494 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:39:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:39:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <19970903120148.07978@shale.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Unix is for the 4x4's... the guys who like to take the car out somewhere 3 > days from the nearest garage and dont want it breaking down, and if it does > then they dont want to pop the hood to discover "CAUTION. Not not open. No > user servicable components inside." stickers. 2 comments: :-) 1) Given the treatment you're putting this car through, I'd be willing to be that "CAUTION" sticker is no longer readable for the dust. :) 2) Who actually listens to those things, anyways? :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 14:58:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10526 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10503 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199709032158.OAA10503@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:57:04 +1200 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: Marco Molteni Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:56:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Apple Newton MessagePad Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz CC: chat@freebsd.org Priority: normal References: <199708220538.XAA07669@obie.softweyr.ml.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni wrote: > > > "This snakeskin jacket symbolizes my individuality and belief > > > in personal freedom". > > > > Snakeskin? For me, it would just symbolize my dislike of > > reptilians. They remind me too much of a VP I used to work for. > > ;^) > > It's a quote from my cult movie, David Lynch's "Wild at heart", but > nobody seems to get it ;-) Not everybody. Some good slogans there actually: "FreeBSD: Much of the same power as the big E" "FreeBSD: Hotter than Georgia asphalt" -- C -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 15:59:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13891 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13886 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15127 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Prev-Resent: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 15:59:53 -0700 Prev-Resent: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org " Received: from hub.freebsd.org (jkh-sl0-o.cdrom.com [204.216.27.193]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA14828 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pooh.cdrom.com (pooh.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12422 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hall@localhost) by pooh.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09795 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:31:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Hall To: local-staff@cdrom.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Resent-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 15:59:53 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <15123.873327593@time.cdrom.com> Resent-From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/reviews.htm Comparsion of FreeBSD, SCO's Enterprise Server, Microsoft's Windows NT, Red Hat's version of Linux, Berkeley Software Design Inc.'s BSD/OS 3.0. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 16:40:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15621 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15610 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id QAA10588; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199709032340.QAA10588@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (none) Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: > > http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/reviews.htm > > Comparsion of FreeBSD, SCO's Enterprise Server, Microsoft's Windows NT, >Red Hat's version of Linux, Berkeley Software Design Inc.'s BSD/OS 3.0. An interesting article. FreeBSD does not come out as well as I would have liked, though -- better than NT, but not as good as BSD/OS or Linux. (They don't give any numbers for SCO.) The numbers they do give for Linux are surprising, in fact -- it would seem to indicate that Linux is considerably ahead of FreeBSD 2.2.2 in terms of performance as a Web server, even with several hundred "simultaneous" connections. John? Any comment? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 17:32:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18551 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18534 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-7.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.7]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01548 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA07828 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:31:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709040031.TAA07828@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: (none) In-reply-to: Message from Sean Eric Fagan of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:40:09 PDT." <199709032340.QAA10588@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 19:31:45 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan writes: > > An interesting article. FreeBSD does not come out as well as I would have > liked, though -- better than NT, but not as good as BSD/OS or Linux. (They > don't give any numbers for SCO.) > > The numbers they do give for Linux are surprising, in fact -- it would seem > to indicate that Linux is considerably ahead of FreeBSD 2.2.2 in terms of > performance as a Web server, even with several hundred "simultaneous" > connections. The article says: For example, Linux has a long but fairly straightforward configuration file for adding device support to the kernel, but no tools to optimize kernel performance and very little documentation on how to do so by hand. SCO has about a dozen tools and volumes of documentation for literally every single kernel parameter, which makes up for the lack of source with which to hack out yet another Unix variation. FreeBSD has a single basic configuration file with C define statements; the file is used to parse the kernel source into a source tree for compilation using the Unix program called "make." No fancy configuration utilities, no neat toys. You mean config(8) isn't a fancy configuration utility? It sure isn't make. "... basic configuration file with C define statements..." ? Is he talking about /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/{GENERIC,LINT} ? nospam: {704} cp /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC /tmp nospam: {705} cd /tmp nospam: {706} mv GENERIC GENERIC.c nospam: {707} cc GENERIC.c GENERIC.c:8: invalid preprocessing directive name GENERIC.c:60: unterminated character constant GENERIC.c:81: unterminated character constant GENERIC.c:104: unterminated character constant GENERIC.c:157: unterminated character constant nospam: {708} GENERIC didn't look like C to me either. :-) Under the "How We Tested" link: We tested operating systems as shipped, and adjusted performance variables and kernel parameters only when the operating system produced an error condition, such as running out of processes or not having enough memory available to handle the load. Meaning items like "maxusers" was not adjusted? Says their test system had 128 MB of RAM, does FreeBSD report an error in this case? Did they do what was needed so FreeBSD could use all 128M? I went looking for performance charts and missed them if they exist. With Linux running an asynchronous filesystem to get an equal test one would have to add the async option on FreeBSD's mount. Was playing with async this weekend and dropped "make world" times from 2:47 to 2:15 on my new PPro 166/512k. "make depend kernel install" only saved 30 seconds with async, down to 4 minutes 15 seconds. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 17:53:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20912 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20904 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05720; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709040029.RAA05720@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: John Fieber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GUI debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 13:54:47 PDT." <14125.873320087@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:29:46 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am painfully aware of the existing status quo , perhaps with Java things will change. Amancio >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > At any rate, both paradigm can peacefully co-exist: curses based > > applications and X based applications the two need not be > > mutually exclusive. > > It's all a moot point in any case since nobody is *writing* all > these nifty X based applications. :-) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 18:03:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21673 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (mail-atm.san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21668 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15402; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709040102.SAA15402@mail.san.rr.com> Received: from dt5h1n61.san.rr.com(204.210.31.97) by mail via smap (V2.0) id xma015235; Wed, 3 Sep 97 18:02:11 -0700 From: "Studded" To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Sean Eric Fagan" Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 18:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Webserver/OS review Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >> http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/reviews.htm >> >> Comparsion of FreeBSD, SCO's Enterprise Server, Microsoft's Windows NT, >>Red Hat's version of Linux, Berkeley Software Design Inc.'s BSD/OS 3.0. > >An interesting article. FreeBSD does not come out as well as I would have >liked, though -- better than NT, but not as good as BSD/OS or Linux. (They >don't give any numbers for SCO.) > >The numbers they do give for Linux are surprising, in fact -- it would seem >to indicate that Linux is considerably ahead of FreeBSD 2.2.2 in terms of >performance as a Web server, even with several hundred "simultaneous" >connections. I also appreciated this article, thanks to the original poster. The article made a very important point. They did not make changes to the settings (kernel compile or otherwise) for anything that didn't generate an error message. One of the things I learned when setting up the FreeBSD systems that my two servers (and in fact most of DALnet now :) run on was that FreeBSD will chug happily along with suboptimal configurations right up to the point where it dies a quick, painful death. You can look at this as a bug, or a feature.. it depends on your perspective. I will say though that when I asked for help, it was forthcoming from the FreeBSD community (and one member of the core team in particular) in spades. They pointed out that FreeBSD was way ahead of the pack right up to the 100 user mark, then it started to fall off. I would have predicted something similar based on our experiece. If they had taken the test up an order of magnitude and simulated several *thousand* users instead of several hundred, they would have seen linux crash and burn in a fairly spectacular manner. :) We used to have several systems on our network using various flavours of linux. All but one of them have switched to FreeBSD as a result of our success. Our ircd software doesn't scale well on solaris, so I can't really comment on that platform, but I know that our FreeBSD servers beat our BSDi servers hands down, even when the BSDi platforms have superior hardware. The big lesson I got from this is a reinforcement of something that I already knew was in the works, namely helping FreeBSD scale a little more gracefully from a light -> heavy user load (with the steps in between obviously). It *is* possible to get a dynamite heavy load system out of FreeBSD by tweaking maxusers, nmbclusters, and a few other little knobs and buttons, but it's still too arcane a process for the non-programmer who can't dig into the source code and "just see" what's wrong and how to fix it. I know that -current has a lot of motion in this direction, but if we really want a product that is "consumable" for a more intermediate target market, more needs to be done. Doug PS, I finally got around to making a little more "exciting" .sig, guess this was a good day for it. *Big Grin* *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 4,168 clients and still growing. :-) *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) *** Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. - Henry V From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 21:10:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02701 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02689 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from well.com (michaelb@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA09785; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:09:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bailey Reply-To: Michael Bailey Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? To: Mike Smith cc: aw1@stade.co.uk, mike@smith.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199709020621.PAA01409@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > In article <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> you write: > > > > > > of course the best part of the movie was seeing the "Unix Party" sticker on the computer and hearing Jodie Foster call for the "Unix Processor" when the alien message needed to be translated From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 22:38:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06921 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hercules.globalpac.com (GPTMAIL.GLOBALPAC.COM [206.170.230.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06916 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peeboy.globalpac.com ([207.215.173.100]) by hercules.globalpac.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13502) with SMTP id AAA161 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:42:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:44:48 -0700 (PDT) From: bomber@globalpac.com (bomber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM drives in general Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > When you are running an audio CD and say tap the side of your box with > "The C Programming Language, Second Edition" moving your arm about as fast > as you would if you were reaching for something does you Audio CD Skip? my box just says "THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!" :) Bomber. - ----------------------------------------------- finger bomber@mail.globalpac.com for PGP key. Key fingerprint = 64 4A 83 4A B4 05 2D D6 C8 4C 29 6A EF 42 79 F7 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 3 23:37:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10201 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10193 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA10610; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:34:17 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA03222; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:04:13 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970904160413.48635@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:04:13 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Bailey Cc: Mike Smith , aw1@stade.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? References: <199709020621.PAA01409@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Michael Bailey on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 09:09:47PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 09:09:47PM -0700, Michael Bailey wrote: > On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > >>> In article <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> you write: >>> >>> >>> > of course the best part of the movie was seeing the "Unix Party" sticker > on the computer and hearing Jodie Foster call for the "Unix Processor" > when the alien message needed to be translated And Microsoft screened that? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 04:29:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA22310 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22305 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-173.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.173]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA29489; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:29:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA09727; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:29:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709041129.GAA09727@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Aled Morris cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Bovine In-reply-to: Message from Aled Morris of "Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:36:49 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 06:29:07 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to chat] > In case anyone's interested, I'm the one who's currently sending > blocks to Bovine under the "freebsd@freebsd.org" team address. > > If no one objects, I'll register a password and put a website up with > details of the hardware being used (4 x Pentium 100 type machines). > > I don't expect to hit the top 1000 with what I've got! I'm aiming to > be in the top 5000 by tomorrow :-( I'm doing about 200 blocks per day at > the moment, compared to the Apple evangelists who are doing 157,176 blocks > per day! I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! Added a couple of little SGI's yesterday to "dkelly@hiwaay.net"'s effort. Will have to take them off today. Otherwise its 3 FreeBSD systems and one Mac SE/30 (crunching 4k keys/sec). -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 04:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA23115 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk.ns.eu.org ([194.117.157.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA23108 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from aledm@localhost) by uk.ns.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA02990; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:49:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Aled Morris X-Sender: aledm@uk.ns.eu.org To: dkelly@hiwaay.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bovine In-Reply-To: <199709041129.GAA09727@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! I've sent a message to wwongs@pl.jaring.my, who's listed as "Team FreeBSD" in the team list, I'd like to bring together the FreeBSD efforts at least from a web site description of the hardware out there. Anyone else working on Bovine? Aled -- tel +44 973 207987 O- aledm@routers.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 06:58:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28966 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28953 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00403; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:11:50 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709040641.QAA00403@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Michael Bailey , Mike Smith , aw1@stade.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's the daemon chasing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:04:13 +0930." <19970904160413.48635@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:11:50 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 09:09:47PM -0700, Michael Bailey wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > >>> In article <199709020125.KAA00498@word.smith.net.au> you write: > >>> > >>> > >>> > > of course the best part of the movie was seeing the "Unix Party" sticker > > on the computer and hearing Jodie Foster call for the "Unix Processor" > > when the alien message needed to be translated > > And Microsoft screened that? They've have been the absolute laughing stock of the scientific world if they tried to portray "big" radio/radar hardware being run by MS software. Whether that's likely to have swayed them, or whether it was just that they actually used "real" control areas (I haven't actually set foot in either the VLA or Arecibo science rooms) and the accompanying hardware, I dunno. For what it says about their background though, the sets were good enough. (Though there were nowhere near enough lazy technicians loafing around stuffing things up, going on my experience 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 09:52:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10865 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10858 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA01485 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: "Jordan K. Hubbard": http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/rev0901-3.htm Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:51:57 -0700 Message-ID: <1482.873391917@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My letter to the editor in response to the Internet Week article. Just FYI... ------- Forwarded Message Sender: jkh@time.cdrom.com Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 05:30:08 -0700 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Organization: Walnut Creek CDROM To: pbrown@cmp.com Subject: http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/rev0901-3.htm Dear Patricia, Sorry to write to you directly, but it's unclear just what Sean Fulton's email address is and I'm writing in regard to his performance review in this month's Internet Week under the title "OS Holy Wars". First, on behalf of the FreeBSD Project, I'd like to thank Mr. Fulton for what was an unusually balanced review, one which also took more time to delve a little more deeply under the surface issues than most reviewers are generally willing to take. Well done. We also appreciate the fact that each OS was tested in its "out of box" configuration and, while we would never dream of making excuses for FreeBSD's rather preciptious decline in performance in your tests, we merely wished to point out one small factor which may have been of strong relevance to your results. When IBM designed the PC BIOS, they made one rather glaring mistake in their choice of a 16 bit memory size register, the value therein representing the total memory size in kilobytes (they probably thinking that, like the 640K barrier, no one would ever have more than 64MB of memory in a machine). FreeBSD has, until very recently, suffered from the unfortunate shortcoming of blindly believing this memory size register and not probing anything beyond 64MB of memory. In the case of the 128MB Dell systems used in your testing, this could have been easily worked around by compiling a kernel with ``options "MAXMEM=(128*1024)"'' set in the kernel configuration file but, since it was also your goal to test out-of-box configurations, I can see where this step may have been simply skipped in the interests of avoiding a potential morass of customization details for each and every OS (in your place, I'd have probably done precisely the same thing). The dmesg output from the FreeBSD system, should it still be available, will, in any case, quickly tell the tale of whether or not the FreeBSD tests were, in fact, done in half the memory available to the other operating systems (and if you did not compile a custom kernel then that would actually be a certainty). It would certainly explain the sharp dip in performance as the FreeBSD machine began to swap where the other operating systems did not and, again, I raise it here merely for your information, not to make excuses for an aspect of FreeBSD's memory sizing behavior which could rightfully be deemed a bug. It is still, nonetheless, a matter of some personal curiousity as to how these tests might have gone had we not suffered from this particular problem or had your test systems been provided with 64MB instead of 128MB of RAM. Ah well, c'est la vie! With thanks for reviewing our product and best begards, - -- - - Jordan Hubbard FreeBSD core team / Walnut Creek CDROM. ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 12:07:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17199 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17177 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 1624 on Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:07:01 GMT; id TAA01624 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00681; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:55:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970903225527.53357@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:55:27 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) References: <199709030704.BAA12723@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from Eric J. Schwertfeger on Wed, Sep 03, 1997 at 08:16:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eric J. Schwertfeger shared with us: > > To expect *every* user to use the mouse to do the same is almost as silly. > Besides, that's what accellerator keys are for. One Alt-key to select the > user list, page-up/page down (or even better, start typing the name), you > get the idea. And having done stuff like that, I can tell you that if your > GUI toolkit supports it, this kind of stuff is trivial to add. Yep. Accelerator keys are a good idea. Every GUI supports them nowadays. BTW, in an earlier mail, someone asked something like "isn't VC++ hard to use due to the GUI?" and the answer is: indeed, it isn't. Actually, you can totally customize VC++. I made my own personal toolbar yesterday and you can also customize keystrokes. Compiling doesn't take that long either, even when your sources files reside on a FreeBSD server. C'mon, it isn't _that_ bad... :) Admitted, the settings menu for building your project is like applying for a car in pre-Gorbachov Russia, but let he who knows all GCC options by heart step forward and announce himself. > I can even do just about everything I ever need to do on Win95 > without a mouse. REPEAT UNTIL screen gets gray works as well. :) - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 12:45:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19514 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19507 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.101]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA05024; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199709042000.NAA05024@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: Aled Morris , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:45:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bovine Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: <199709041129.GAA09727@nospam.hiwaay.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been working on it for awhile as wilshire.net--up to about 553 now. Have about 3-4 (depends) Freebsd pentiums on it and about 4 NT machines, pentiums and ppro 200s. If a Freebsd team does get together I'd consider putting my fbsd machine on that team. I'm a little reluctant though--a while back this was discussed and no one followed up (that I saw), and now my mixed OS machines have been churning away and I'm almost in the top 500! Think it'd be good publicity for FreeBSD though. Anyone else interested now? Riley > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:49:21 +0100 (BST) > From: Aled Morris > To: dkelly@hiwaay.net > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Bovine > On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! > > I've sent a message to wwongs@pl.jaring.my, who's listed as "Team > FreeBSD" in the team list, I'd like to bring together the FreeBSD efforts > at least from a web site description of the hardware out there. > > Anyone else working on Bovine? > > Aled > -- > tel +44 973 207987 O- > aledm@routers.co.uk > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 13:44:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21952 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renoir.op.net (root@renoir.op.net [206.84.208.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21945 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monet.op.net (darxus@monet.op.net [206.84.208.3]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.14 $) with ESMTP id QAA23784 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (darxus@localhost) by monet.op.net ($Revision: 1.2 $) with SMTP id QAA07438 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:44:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: monet.op.net: darxus owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:44:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Darxus To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bovine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Aled Morris wrote: > On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! > > I've sent a message to wwongs@pl.jaring.my, who's listed as "Team > FreeBSD" in the team list, I'd like to bring together the FreeBSD efforts > at least from a web site description of the hardware out there. > > Anyone else working on Bovine? what *is* bovine ?? it sounds very cool from the 3 posts I've seen on this list... I would have asked in personal email, but I'm guessing there are others who are curious... it sounds like there would be a URL for this thing ? ________________________________________________________________________ ***PGP fingerprint = D5 EB F8 E7 64 55 CF 91 C2 4F E0 4D 18 B6 7C 27*** darxus@op.net / http://www.op.net/~darxus "You shall know the truth, and it shall make you odd." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 13:55:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22472 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foo.primenet.com (ip191.sjc.primenet.com [206.165.96.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22463 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id OAA20160; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709042101.OAA20160@foo.primenet.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: "Jordan K. Hubbard": http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/rev0901-3.htm Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat References: <1482.873391917@time.cdrom.com> From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In localhost.freebsd.chat you write: >My letter to the editor in response to the Internet Week article. >Just FYI... >Dear Patricia, [Nice message snipped] >It is still, nonetheless, a matter of some personal curiousity as to how >these tests might have gone had we not suffered from this particular >problem or had your test systems been provided with 64MB instead of >128MB of RAM. >Ah well, c'est la vie! The other thing about GENERIC (and to be honest, something which leaves me somewhat awed with the results for "100 users") is that GENERIC has maxusers set to 10, which seems to be even more significant than the 64MB memory limitation. I'd imagine they'd run out of processes before they even started heavy swapping. -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 14:26:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24290 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24285 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id OAA01409; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:26:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199709042126.OAA01409@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "Jordan K. Hubbard": http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/rev0901-3.htm References: <1482.873391917@time.cdrom.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199709042101.OAA20160.kithrup.freebsd.chat@foo.primenet.com> you write: >The other thing about GENERIC (and to be honest, something which >leaves me somewhat awed with the results for "100 users") is that >GENERIC has maxusers set to 10, which seems to be even more >significant than the 64MB memory limitation. Hm. That kinda matches with BSDi declaring that an httpd user is 1/10th of a real user. (Same with NFS and ftpd.) So 100 httpd users would be 10 real users. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 15:15:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26265 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26259 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.101]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA05930; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199709042230.PAA05930@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: Darxus Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:14:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bovine Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com CC: chat@freebsd.org Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Aled Morris wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > > > I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! > > > > I've sent a message to wwongs@pl.jaring.my, who's listed as "Team > > FreeBSD" in the team list, I'd like to bring together the FreeBSD efforts > > at least from a web site description of the hardware out there. > > > > Anyone else working on Bovine? > > what *is* bovine ?? it sounds very cool from the 3 posts I've seen on > this list... I would have asked in personal email, but I'm guessing there > are others who are curious... it sounds like there would be a URL for this > thing ? Check out: http://rc5.distributed.net/ It's a concerted, distributed effort to crack an RSA 56 bit secret key to demonstrate to the US government that the US needs to be able to freely export stronger encryption in order to sell competitive software and to enable US based companies to use secure encryption with overseas offices. Kinda fun. :) Riley From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 16:31:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29803 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29626 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id TAA14441; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id TAA28193; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:25:43 -0400 (EDT) To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: (none) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:40:09 PDT." <199709032340.QAA10588@kithrup.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 19:25:42 -0400 Message-ID: <28189.873415542@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote in message ID <199709032340.QAA10588@kithrup.com>: > The numbers they do give for Linux are surprising, in fact -- it would seem > to indicate that Linux is considerably ahead of FreeBSD 2.2.2 in terms of > performance as a Web server, even with several hundred "simultaneous" > connections. There are a couple of possibilities: - They didn't increase the max connections in apache so apache itself was the throttle (unlikely, but possible) - they ran into mbuf limitations They also failed to mention which ethernet card was used. And I bet they had left tcp extensions on, which with lots of small packets probably didn't help much. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 4 22:10:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27483 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27363 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA15490; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:48:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:48:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709050448.WAA15490@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: "Jordan K. Hubbard": http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/reviews/rev0901-3.htm In-Reply-To: <1482.873391917@time.cdrom.com> References: <1482.873391917@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > Sorry to write to you directly, but it's unclear just what Sean Fulton's > email address is and I'm writing in regard to his performance review in > this month's Internet Week under the title "OS Holy Wars". > > First, on behalf of the FreeBSD Project, I'd like to thank Mr. Fulton > for what was an unusually balanced review, one which also took more time > to delve a little more deeply under the surface issues than most > reviewers are generally willing to take. Well done. Youse guys don't remember Sean Fulton? He was one of the original writing staff for "Unix Today," nee "Open Systems Today." One of the all-time great computer industry rags; I nearly cried to see it die. Their coverage was sometimes not the greatest, but they usually managed to finish the job by "the next issue." I remember Sean's writing well, he seemed to be one of the few scribblers who actually had some understanding of what he was writing about. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 5 03:34:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00314 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00305 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id NAA03082; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:29:34 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709051029.NAA03082@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Bovine In-Reply-To: <199709041129.GAA09727@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at "Sep 4, 97 06:29:07 am" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:29:34 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: aledm@routers.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [moved to chat] > > > In case anyone's interested, I'm the one who's currently sending > > blocks to Bovine under the "freebsd@freebsd.org" team address. > > > > If no one objects, I'll register a password and put a website up with > > details of the hardware being used (4 x Pentium 100 type machines). > > > > I don't expect to hit the top 1000 with what I've got! I'm aiming to > > be in the top 5000 by tomorrow :-( I'm doing about 200 blocks per day at > > the moment, compared to the Apple evangelists who are doing 157,176 blocks > > per day! > > I'm up to #2093, might possibly make the top 2000 shortly! > > Added a couple of little SGI's yesterday to "dkelly@hiwaay.net"'s effort. > Will have to take them off today. Otherwise its 3 FreeBSD systems and > one Mac SE/30 (crunching 4k keys/sec). > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 5 11:08:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22940 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk.ns.eu.org ([194.117.157.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22904 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from aledm@localhost) by uk.ns.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04453; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:34 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:34 +0100 (BST) From: Aled Morris X-Sender: aledm@uk.ns.eu.org To: Patrick Gardella cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bovine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Patrick Gardella wrote: > I've been running the client on about 15 computers for 4 months. Which team are you supporting? Are these computers FreeBSD? Aled -- tel +44 973 207987 O- aledm@routers.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 5 13:06:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28675 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cre8tivegroup.com (abt6.bitwise.net [204.97.222.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28668 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.255.227.94] by mail.cre8tivegroup.com (SMTPD32-3.04) id A6CED9019E; Fri, 05 Sep 1997 16:08:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.0 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 16:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Organization: The Creative Group From: Patrick Gardella To: Aled Morris Subject: Re: Bovine Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm on my own team "pgardella@geocities.com", cuz when I started, there weren't any teams! There's no way to transfer blocks, so I've stayed single (as it were!). I have: P166 - FreeBSD 2.2.1 P150 - FreeBSD 2.2.1 486/75 - FreeBSD 2.2.1 P200 - Windoze 95 2 P166 - Windoze 95 couple of P150 - Windoze 95 3 486/100 - Windoze 95 PPC 603e/75 - MacOS 8.0 PPC 601/120 - MacOS 7.5.5 As a reminder, the stats on the Bovine page are for the number of blocks divided by total working time, so in my case 25567 blocks / 122 days. The current rate will always be higher, so if you will join team freebsd@freebsd.org do it quickly! Patrick On 05-Sep-97 Aled Morris wrote: >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Patrick Gardella wrote: > >> I've been running the client on about 15 computers for 4 months. > >Which team are you supporting? Are these computers FreeBSD? > >Aled >-- >tel +44 973 207987 O- >aledm@routers.co.uk ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Patrick Gardella Date: 05-Sep-97 Time: 16:01:31 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 6 01:27:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02859 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peeper.my.domain ([208.128.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02854 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tom@localhost) by peeper.my.domain (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA01456; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:26:24 -0500 From: Tom Jackson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Testimonial Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Check out News & Views section in the Oct copy of ddj. It will ring your bell! Go Team FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 6 06:15:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA12681 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12676 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA25745; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:15:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: Testimonial In-Reply-To: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> from Tom Jackson at "Sep 6, 97 03:26:24 am" To: toj@gorilla.net (Tom Jackson) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:15:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Check out News & Views section in the Oct copy of ddj. It will ring your > bell! What is ddj? Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 6 14:12:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01854 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01842 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA04016 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:12:20 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id XAA17412 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:12:15 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA00871; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970906230040.14784@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:00:40 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de>; from Wolfgang Helbig on Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 03:15:17PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Wolfgang Helbig: > What is ddj? Doctor Dobb's Journal. A journal for programmers although they're generally more speaking Windows than Unix these days. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 6 17:42:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13695 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust163.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13690 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id UAA07746; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970906204232.60650@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:42:32 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Wolfgang Helbig Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de>; from Wolfgang Helbig on Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 03:15:17PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 03:15:17PM +0200, Wolfgang Helbig wrote: > > Check out News & Views section in the Oct copy of ddj. It will ring your > > bell! > > What is ddj? I would guess Dr. Dobb's Journal. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code