From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 05:11:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA05579 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05554 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:11:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07720; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:11:06 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA12578; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:11:04 +0100 (MET) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) References: <199712132055.NAA29304@usr06.primenet.com> From: Eivind Eklund Date: 14 Dec 1997 14:11:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:55:27 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <8690toqdco.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> Lines: 42 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.52/XEmacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > > Theoretically, the physical layout of the device should be stored > > > whether or not there's any filesystem on it. > > > > This is a fundamentally flawed approach, and I am glad that Julian's > > new SLICE model (at this stage) completely ignores any incidental > > parametric information associated with an extent. > > One "incidental" piece of parametric information I am interested in > seeing is the physical block size. > > Consider the FFS directory management code. It has knowledge of > physical blocks. In fact, it can not easily handle a directory > block that is not exactly a physical block size. The current code > can not be broken across block I/O's, nor can it handle partial > block I/O's well (there are a number of failure modes). > > This becomes *very* important if you ever want to support Unicode, > which takes 2 characters per character, or EUC encoded "Big 5", > which may take up to 5 characters per character (one of the reasons > I am "for" Unicode and "against" EUC/ISO2022). You loose. Unicode isn't enough - the asians have introduced shifting _anyway_, as they couldn't fit all asian languages into the space available. Now, if the asians hadn't voted down the original Unicode proposal which called for selection of Unicode charsets for different asian languages... When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to display multiple languages in the same document. Eivind. P.S. The above is based on 2nd hand "oral" information - I'm not a nationalisation/character encoding expert, but got it off one. So no difficult questions now ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 05:19:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06821 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ching.apana.org.au (root@ching.apana.org.au [202.12.89.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA06811 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:19:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin@ching.apana.org.au) Received: from ching.apana.org.au (hatch.ching.apana.org.au [202.12.89.194]) by ching.apana.org.au (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04483; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:47:29 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <3493DC2F.E994429E@ching.apana.org.au> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:46:31 +1030 From: Martin Bull Organization: The first "ching.apana.org.au" member X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: Ken.Monville@FergInc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux References: <199712121058.MAA14187@greenpeace.grondar.za> <19971212084211.63177@toth.FergInc.com> <3493795A.41C67EA6@xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > Ken Monville wrote: > KM> I have a little saying taped to the bottom of my monitor.. I forget > KM> where I got it from, but I don't take credit for it... > > > KM> 4) Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then > > KM> beat you with experience. > > WP> A corollary to this is the old admonition: > > WP> "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it just makes you look stupid > WP> and irritates the pig." I think this was a "quote" from 'Lazarus Long' a character in Robert Heinlein's book "Time enough for love" The two other quotes from Heinlein/Long which I think are worth living by are (1) Everything in excess, moderation is for monks! (2) A person should be able to do a small bit of everything, specialisation is for insects Martin From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 12:42:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08208 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08197 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00218 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:42:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:42:50 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: weird IP address (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > Ethics have nothing to do with it. Spammers don't know the meaning of the word. > If Sanford Wallace decided to have www.cyberpromo.com point to a machine I > own, I *would* be concerned. And it wouldn't be ethical. At one point he had the FDN of one of his spam spewing boxes pointing to a berkeley.edu address, an address that I couldn't find in any bind sample files. Had it been in an example file I could have given him the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was an honest mistake. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 13:01:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10348 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10327 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:01:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id HAA07396; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:30:48 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19971215073048.57829@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:30:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) References: <199712132055.NAA29304@usr06.primenet.com> <8690toqdco.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <8690toqdco.fsf@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 02:11:03PM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 02:11:03PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to > display multiple languages in the same document. It's fairly seldom that an average user will need to run more than one program at a time, so what's all this fuss about multitasking operating systems? I often need to display multiple languages at once. In European countries, such as Norway, they may need to display English, Swedish and Norwegian in a single document. Sure, you can represent all of those with ISO 8859-1, but think about the Japanese, who have four alphabets anyway, and the Singaporeans, who have four national languages, each potentially with its own character set. In those countries the requirement is very frequent. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 13:16:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11378 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11360 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11576; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:16:11 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA13646; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:16:10 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971214221609.48148@follo.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:16:09 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) References: <199712132055.NAA29304@usr06.primenet.com> <8690toqdco.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> <19971215073048.57829@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19971215073048.57829@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 07:30:48AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 07:30:48AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 02:11:03PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to > > display multiple languages in the same document. > > It's fairly seldom that an average user will need to run more than one > program at a time, so what's all this fuss about multitasking > operating systems? Hey, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be possible. I'm arguing that it should require a character set shift instead of shifting in extra characters in the existing character set. This is a question of coding, not capabilites. My problem with shift-coding it that it makes it hard to write simple programs; in many cases it is better to have something that works for the simple case (single character set all through the message) than not having any support at all. And if you have to introduce shifting anyway, why bother with Unicode at all? > I often need to display multiple languages at once. In European > countries, such as Norway, they may need to display English, Swedish > and Norwegian in a single document. Fairly seldom, actually. I sometimes use two languages in a single document to be able to hold foreign citations, but that's about it. There might be a problem if a country has several official languages and it is impossible to represent them in the same character set, but that is the only case I can see it being a serious problem for anybody but language scholars. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 17:04:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00153 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00144 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA07285; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:45:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:45:10 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199712150045.QAA07285@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best kept "secrets" finally exposed In-Reply-To: <199712150005.QAA24409.kithrup.freebsd.bugs@hub.freebsd.org> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What computer stores don't want you to know is that a well made, [rest of spam deleted] It looks like the sendmail.cf rules on hub are incorrectly defined -- this should not have gotten past the RBL check. This would explain an earlier comment that the RBL rules had not resulted in any blocked messages. Also note that it came from a machine with no PTR record available -- so why didn't the earlier check get it? Has all spam checking been disabled on hub? From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 18:53:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10449 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10440; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199712150253.SAA10440@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Best kept "secrets" finally exposed To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:53:12 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199712150045.QAA07285@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Dec 14, 97 04:45:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > What computer stores don't want you to know is that a well made, > [rest of spam deleted] > > It looks like the sendmail.cf rules on hub are incorrectly defined -- this > should not have gotten past the RBL check. This would explain an earlier > comment that the RBL rules had not resulted in any blocked messages. > > Also note that it came from a machine with no PTR record available -- so why > didn't the earlier check get it? Has all spam checking been disabled on hub? > > no they have not been turned off. we are not doing reverse lookups. we are already rejecting over 2000 connections attempts everyday, some of those from legitimate people with cretinous sys admins. this host is in vixie's rbl.... i am checking the client_addr in check_mail. client_addr may not be defined in check_relay (per 2nd ed of sendmail) i will look into this. >From owner-freebsd-bugs Sun Dec 14 16:30:15 1997 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24456; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-bugs) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24422 for bugs-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:05:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-bugs) Received: from phantom.mail-center.com ([209.136.73.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24409 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:05:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woody@mail-man.net) hub jmb[106] host phantom.mailc-enter.com phantom.mail-center.com has address 209.136.73.170 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 22:54:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27488 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:54:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27482 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:53:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12664; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:57:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012644; Sun Dec 14 23:56:59 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA26495; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:53:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199712150653.XAA26495@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:53:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8690toqdco.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Dec 14, 97 02:11:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This becomes *very* important if you ever want to support Unicode, > > which takes 2 characters per character, or EUC encoded "Big 5", > > which may take up to 5 characters per character (one of the reasons > > I am "for" Unicode and "against" EUC/ISO2022). > > You loose. Unicode isn't enough - the asians have introduced shifting > _anyway_, as they couldn't fit all asian languages into the space > available. > > Now, if the asians hadn't voted down the original Unicode proposal > which called for selection of Unicode charsets for different asian > languages... > > When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to > display multiple languages in the same document. > > Eivind. > > P.S. The above is based on 2nd hand "oral" information - I'm not a > nationalisation/character encoding expert, but got it off one. So no > difficult questions now ;-) Your oral information is a lie. The real "Asian Unicode issue" is language bigotry. You couldn't display only the Japanese out of a mixed Chinese/Japanese document. It's not really an issue of "the asians" voting things down. It's an issue of language bigotry. One big problem (for the Japanese) is that Unicode selected Chinese dictionary order. Forget for the moment that the Chinese make up 1/5 of the worlds population, and forget that the Japanese dictionare order is not capable of providing sequencing information for Chinese Kanji's, while Chinese dictionary order can accommodate both Chinese and Japanese Kanji (it being in a stroke-radical ordering). The real problem for the Japanese (especially Ohto-san) is that you can't get rid of all non-Japanese characters easily... in other words, the standard is "impure". The standard accomplished it's intent: provide a mechanism for a round trip to and from all existing character set standards. That the Japanese can not easily distinguish Chinese characters which are Unicode encoded is more the fault of the Japanese and Chinese never agreeing on an encoding standard that had seperate code points. The other implicit issue is that the collation sequence is not the same as the Japanese collation sequence. On the other hand, the Japanese have no problem with UTF-8 and UTF-7 and EUC and Shift-JIS and ISO2022, and all those other "standards" that make Western software using fixed field forms input and record storage practically useless. This is on the order of expecting the French to use English words in their contribution to the ESA, instead of delaying things while their official standards body makes up new French words... Unicode is a *character* encoding standard, not a *font* encoding standard. It has it's faults (one of which is the bias against fixed cell rendering technologies -- but how could you expect Taligent to not favor Adobe technology over X, despite the licensing costs?), but the use of multilingual documents is adequately covered by Compounding (as described in the Unicode standard, volume 1). The problem is that software is generally internationalized. It is *not* generally *multinationalized*. The difference is subtle: the first only enables data-driven localization into a single round-trip character set. If the Japanese want *multinationalization* (a smoke screen for the collation and language seperation issues), then the onus is on them to invent a round-trip character set that includes seperate code points; at that time, *then* (and *only* then) Unicode would have to seperate the code points. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 14 22:59:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27878 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:59:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27872 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:59:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27631; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:14:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd027619; Mon Dec 15 00:13:56 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA26680; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:58:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199712150658.XAA26680@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:58:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971215073048.57829@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Dec 15, 97 07:30:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to > > display multiple languages in the same document. > > It's fairly seldom that an average user will need to run more than one > program at a time, so what's all this fuss about multitasking > operating systems? > > I often need to display multiple languages at once. In European > countries, such as Norway, they may need to display English, Swedish > and Norwegian in a single document. Sure, you can represent all of > those with ISO 8859-1, but think about the Japanese, who have four > alphabets anyway, and the Singaporeans, who have four national > languages, each potentially with its own character set. In those > countries the requirement is very frequent. The Japanese can represent 21 languages. There is Unicode round-trip capability for JIS 208 + JIS 212. What is missing is the ability to seperate a bilingual Chinese and Japanese document, such that a Japanese does not have to sully his eyes with Chinese pretending to be Japanese. I think there is a valid need for the ability to multinationalize; the use of translation consoles and linguistic scholarship are two of the examples where this would be needed (but neither have the proposed alternatives provided code pages for "Linear B"...). But multinationalization is the exception, not the rule, and the ability to do the work is cumbersome, but adequately provided by the ability to produce Compound Documents. I think this fuss is political. I think it will go away when the first company prodices something which works. People, in general, do not give a damn about the underlying technology; they care about whether the underlying technilogy works to provide them with what they see in the forground, and _how_ it does this is a "don't care" state. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 00:08:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03265 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03228 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA01002; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:37:43 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19971215183738.35448@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:37:38 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: perhaps@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blocksize on devfs entries (and related) References: <19971215073048.57829@lemis.com> <199712150658.XAA26680@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199712150658.XAA26680@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 06:58:53AM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 06:58:53AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> When you think about it, it is fairly seldom an average user need to >>> display multiple languages in the same document. >> >> It's fairly seldom that an average user will need to run more than one >> program at a time, so what's all this fuss about multitasking >> operating systems? >> >> I often need to display multiple languages at once. In European >> countries, such as Norway, they may need to display English, Swedish >> and Norwegian in a single document. Sure, you can represent all of >> those with ISO 8859-1, but think about the Japanese, who have four >> alphabets anyway, and the Singaporeans, who have four national >> languages, each potentially with its own character set. In those >> countries the requirement is very frequent. > > The Japanese can represent 21 languages. There is Unicode round-trip > capability for JIS 208 + JIS 212. > > What is missing is the ability to seperate a bilingual Chinese and > Japanese document, such that a Japanese does not have to sully his > eyes with Chinese pretending to be Japanese. I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese document without Kanji. I suppose it's possible, but it's not common. On the other hands, I have seen Japanese texts *only* in Kanji. What do the Japanese here say? Does Terry's statement make practical sense? > I think there is a valid need for the ability to multinationalize; the > use of translation consoles and linguistic scholarship are two of the > examples where this would be needed (but neither have the proposed > alternatives provided code pages for "Linear B"...). > > But multinationalization is the exception, not the rule, I would guess that outside the US it's the rule. In that connection, a joke I heard in India earlier this year: What do you call somebody who speaks four languages? -- quadrilingual. What do you call somebody who speaks three languages? -- trilingual. What do you call somebody who speaks two languages? -- bilingual. What do you call somebody who speaks only one language -- American. > and the ability to do the work is cumbersome, but adequately > provided by the ability to produce Compound Documents. Certainly the American approach that it's the "exception" doesn't make things easier. > I think this fuss is political. I think it will go away when the > first company prodices something which works. I'm not sure which fuss you're talking about, but then, I came in after things had been going a while. Certainly I'd expect people to be happier when they have something which works. And I'd lay a bet that the winning solution will come from Europe or Asia. > People, in general, do not give a damn about the underlying > technology; they care about whether the underlying technilogy works > to provide them with what they see in the forground, and _how_ it > does this is a "don't care" state. To wit Microsoft. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 02:45:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA16761 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA16745 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07765 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:44:06 GMT Message-ID: <3493D493.D129B4C0@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:44:04 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: news servers References: <199712082138.XAA07553@shadows.aeon.net> <19971209082948.41475@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to spork: > ? I'm not positive, but I believe sol.net is FreeBSD based... > > SOL.NET is Joe Greco's domain and all his machines are indeed FreeBSD. He's > using Cyclone and Diablo. Erols is a Linux I think. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ It is replasements for INN ? where I can get more info ? > > ? Rank weight name > ? ============================ > ? 1 28.59 cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com > ? 2 26.48 newsfeed.internetmci.com > ? 3 20.45 news.maxwell.syr.edu > ? 4 16.20 howland.erols.net > ? 5 15.24 news-peer.sprintlink.net > ? 6 14.82 cyberspam > ? 7 13.29 sol.net > ? 8 13.27 newsfeeds.sol.net > ? 9 12.02 adiron > ? 10 11.99 nocemed > ? 11 11.48 newspeer.sol.net > > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #18: Tue Nov 25 22:32:12 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 15:43:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28255 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:43:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.cybervillage.com ([208.13.245.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28244 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric@netdesign1.com) Received: from 7.NetDesign1.Com (7.NetDesign1.Com [208.13.245.71]) by www.cybervillage.com (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ya115074 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:35:08 -0500 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:53 -0500 (EST) Organization: NetDesign From: Eric Griff To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: please ignore.. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -------------- Eric A. Griff From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 19:15:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15778 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:15:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15380 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id EAA25313 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:09:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id CAA04718; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:31:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971216023156.11790@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:31:56 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: news servers References: <199712082138.XAA07553@shadows.aeon.net> <19971209082948.41475@keltia.freenix.fr> <3493D493.D129B4C0@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <3493D493.D129B4C0@Shevchenko.kiev.ua>; from Ruslan Shevchenko on Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 12:44:04PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3883 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Ruslan Shevchenko: > > SOL.NET is Joe Greco's domain and all his machines are indeed FreeBSD. He's > > using Cyclone and Diablo. Erols is a Linux I think. > > ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ > It is replasements for INN ? Yes. Cyclone and Diable have no reader support although there is Typhoon from the same firm who does Cyclone for that and Matt Dillon said reader support for Diablo was forthcoming. Cyclone Diablo -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #19: Tue Dec 9 20:17:10 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 19:23:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16428 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:23:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from foo.bar.com (F180-180.net.wisc.edu [144.92.180.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16413 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@foo.bar.com) Received: from localhost (jesse@localhost) by foo.bar.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00191; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:24:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:24:50 -0600 (CST) From: "jtkipp@students.wisc.edu" Reply-To: zaphod@imailbox.com To: Alex cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to chat... ------------ "And mama said, That's what you get for jumping on the bed!" Jesse Kipp, zaphod@imailbox.com, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu ------------ On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Alex wrote: > Either way, WP 5.1 was one of the best written programs I've ever used. > It was blazingly fast (on a 486 none the less), so I wouldn't doubt that a > lot of it was written in assembly. It even came with a little task > swapper thing, that while not as powerful as DeskView, it certianly worked > nicely and came with a nice bunch of integrated apps (calendar, mini > database, spreadsheet, etc..). Those Mormons sure knew how to code DOS > apps back then ;-) > > - alex Wow! I never knew it had half of those features! I ran WP 5.1 on a 286/8/640k the only catch was if you typed to fast, the computer would get behind when you reached the end of a line... and saving and searching were painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be really cool. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 19:38:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17461 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@ghana-152.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17454 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08901; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: zaphod@imailbox.com cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu wrote: > Moved to chat... > > ------------ > "And mama said, That's what you get for jumping on the bed!" > Jesse Kipp, zaphod@imailbox.com, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu > ------------ > > On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Alex wrote: > > > Either way, WP 5.1 was one of the best written programs I've ever used. > > It was blazingly fast (on a 486 none the less), so I wouldn't doubt that a > > lot of it was written in assembly. It even came with a little task > > swapper thing, that while not as powerful as DeskView, it certianly worked > > nicely and came with a nice bunch of integrated apps (calendar, mini > > database, spreadsheet, etc..). Those Mormons sure knew how to code DOS > > apps back then ;-) > > > > - alex > Wow! I never knew it had half of those features! I ran WP 5.1 on a > 286/8/640k the only catch was if you typed to fast, the computer would get > behind when you reached the end of a line... and saving and searching were > painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought > not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be > really cool. These were actually part of WP's Office, but still very tightly integrated (Shell 4.0, notebook (dataperfect was the bigger crummier db), planperfect, etc..). It ran 'bout the same on a PC (8088/4.77), but the 8048[6|7] sped tables up pretty nicely (or seemed to). WP7 Profesional has some curses based Wp, but I've never used it as it has no trial version. Oh well. - alex From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 20:12:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19323 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19081 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00828; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:29:47 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199712160359.OAA00828@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: zaphod@imailbox.com cc: Alex , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:24:50 MDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:29:47 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought > not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be > really cool. WP5.1 for SCO runs on FreeBSD. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 20:20:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20090 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20020 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xhoU4-0002v9-00; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:19:52 -0700 Message-ID: <349602F0.AB752703@xmission.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:26:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zaphod@imailbox.com CC: Alex , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Alex wrote: % Either way, WP 5.1 was one of the best written programs I've ever used. % It was blazingly fast (on a 486 none the less), so I wouldn't doubt that a % lot of it was written in assembly. It even came with a little task % swapper thing, that while not as powerful as DeskView, it certianly worked % nicely and came with a nice bunch of integrated apps (calendar, mini % database, spreadsheet, etc..). Those Mormons sure knew how to code DOS % apps back then ;-) They still do, but who wants them? :^) jtkipp@students.wisc.edu replied: > Wow! I never knew it had half of those features! I ran WP 5.1 on a > 286/8/640k the only catch was if you typed to fast, the computer would get > behind when you reached the end of a line... and saving and searching were > painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought > not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be > really cool. There is a version of WP6.0 (The X/Motif version) for Caldera Linux; will it run under emulation on FreeBSD? I think a trial version comes on the OpenLinux Lite CD, which Caldera gives away like popcorn at trade shows. I've got two or three, if you don't have one I can send you one. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 21:37:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25076 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:37:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@haiti-72.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25072 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:37:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11405; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:39:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-Reply-To: <199712160449.UAA00488@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > As well as WP7 linux with the recent round of patches to the kernel > and the linux emulation layer 8) Yup it does, and it's much quicker than StarOffice. - alex From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 21:38:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25117 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:38:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@haiti-72.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25101 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11399; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:38:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Wes Peters cc: zaphod@imailbox.com, Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-Reply-To: <349602F0.AB752703@xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > jtkipp@students.wisc.edu replied: > > Wow! I never knew it had half of those features! I ran WP 5.1 on a > > 286/8/640k the only catch was if you typed to fast, the computer would get > > behind when you reached the end of a line... and saving and searching were > > painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought > > not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be > > really cool. > > There is a version of WP6.0 (The X/Motif version) for Caldera Linux; > will it run under emulation on FreeBSD? I think a trial version > comes on the OpenLinux Lite CD, which Caldera gives away like popcorn > at trade shows. I've got two or three, if you don't have one I can > send you one. ;^) I'm talking 5.1. WP6 and 7 both are really much worse IMO. Although for a GUI word processor, they're fairly nice, but I still like the quickness and smallness (fits in less than 5 megs) of 5.1 for DOS. Is that touted SCO version text or GUI? - alex From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 21:55:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26483 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26467 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00488; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:49:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199712160449.UAA00488@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Mike Smith cc: zaphod@imailbox.com, Alex , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:29:47 +1030." <199712160359.OAA00828@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:49:46 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As well as WP7 linux with the recent round of patches to the kernel and the linux emulation layer 8) Cheers, Amancio > > painfully slow... I love WP 5.1, Is the source available? No, I thought > > not... Even a look-a-like with the same features for FreeBSD would be > > really cool. > > WP5.1 for SCO runs on FreeBSD. > > mike > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 15 22:24:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28711 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28395 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00378; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199712160615.WAA00378@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Wes Peters cc: zaphod@imailbox.com, Alex , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DELETING WINDOWS 95, Please Help In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:26:24 MST." <349602F0.AB752703@xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:15:55 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There is a version of WP6.0 (The X/Motif version) for Caldera Linux; > will it run under emulation on FreeBSD? I think a trial version I don't see why not.... {root} ./xwp ELF binary type not known Abort {root} linux {root} ./xwp It looks good 8) Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 08:03:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04952 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:03:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mage.qualcomm.com (mage.qualcomm.com [129.46.174.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04922 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:03:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtafolla@qualcomm.com) Received: from dtafolla2 (mandrew.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.34]) by mage.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.14) with SMTP id IAA02084 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:02:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971216080744.00919e30@pan.qpe.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: dtafolla@pan.qpe.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:07:44 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Daniel Tafolla Subject: ADD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 10:06:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14362 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13967 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00459; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:00:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199712161800.NAA00459@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux In-Reply-To: <3493795A.41C67EA6@xmission.com> from Wes Peters at "Dec 13, 97 11:14:50 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:00:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: Ken.Monville@FergInc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters said: > > A corollary to this is the old admonition: > > "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it just makes you look stupid > and irritates the pig." > I have added it to my signature line: how do you like it? :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, and jdyson@nc.com | it irritates the pig. :-). From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 12:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28199 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28038 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@kalypso.cybercom.net) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07532 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:46:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:46:04 -0500 (EST) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Kernel Configurator Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If there were a (semi) GUI application that assisted the user in selecting a relevant, compatible set of options and then allowed him/her to build the resulting kernel, would that be useful to any of you? Do you think it would be useful to FreeBSD/UNIX rookies? K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 12:52:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28598 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:52:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28052 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:47:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA069780882305249 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:47:29 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id JAA13469 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:47:29 +1300 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24883 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:38:49 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14873 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:38:48 +1300 (NZDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:38:47 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux In-Reply-To: <199712161800.NAA00459@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Wes Peters said: > > > > A corollary to this is the old admonition: > > > > "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it just makes you look stupid > > and irritates the pig." > > > I have added it to my signature line: how do you like it? :-). > How about: "Never wrestle in the mud with pigs, you only get dirty and the pigs just love it" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Chen | When all else fails, RTFM ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 13:22:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00494 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00485 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id FAA21704; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma021701; Tue, 16 Dec 97 05:21:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3496F0A0.AE700829@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:20:32 -0800 From: Don Wilde Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" CC: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux References: <199712161800.NAA00459@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, and > jdyson@nc.com | it irritates the pig. :-). Sorry, John, I can't resist: | Never try to teach an ORACLE to FreeBSD... -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 13:54:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03194 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02091 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) id XAA29779 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:47:19 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199712162147.XAA29779@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: damn it, limux strikes again... In-Reply-To: from Linus Torvalds at "Dec 12, 97 09:12:40 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:47:19 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > but I don't think my reaction was completely unreasonable. > > Linus now, _here_ is an example why i ...dont like the fact i hold a finnish passport... ...dont run linux even tho my college were less than a mile from linus' college at a time several years ago... i went to 1.0 freebsd instead, and convinced many "our" linux persons to freebsd. (that was, back in the school years) ...my employer is not running linux... ...will not ever run linux. i rather use no computer instead. i'm from finland, water proof finn, yet, i _hate_ the arrogance some people here have, i know i should probably be the last person talking about arrogance, but i still _hate_ it. coz of the fact government gives us everything (education at least) for free, we grow up in a twisted way, and probably coz of the fact of not enough light in the winter, we grow up without manners to socialice with other also intelligent people. anyway, i heard and saw in the past that linus were a nicer person in a reality, but it seems that the alcohol is making it's work, after all, it's a fact that finnish people use excessive amounts of it. mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 14:07:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04437 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04415 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:06:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16729; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:04:54 GMT Message-ID: <3495C5A0.D05E9A36@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:04:50 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel Configurator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > If there were a (semi) GUI application that assisted the user in selecting > a relevant, compatible set of options and then allowed him/her to build > the resulting kernel, would that be useful to any of you? Do you think it > would be useful to FreeBSD/UNIX rookies? > > K.S. Managing user accounts, imho, more practible, From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 14:45:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07988 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:45:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07581 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27110; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:07:59 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19971217090759.19672@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:07:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: mika ruohotie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: damn it, limux strikes again... References: <199712162147.XAA29779@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199712162147.XAA29779@shadows.aeon.net>; from mika ruohotie on Tue, Dec 16, 1997 at 11:47:19PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 16, 1997 at 11:47:19PM +0200, mika ruohotie wrote: >> but I don't think my reaction was completely unreasonable. >> >> Linus > > now, _here_ is an example why i > > ...dont like the fact i hold a finnish passport... > > ...dont run linux even tho my college were less than a mile from > linus' college at a time several years ago... i went to 1.0 > freebsd instead, and convinced many "our" linux persons to freebsd. > (that was, back in the school years) > > ...my employer is not running linux... > > ...will not ever run linux. i rather use no computer instead. > > i'm from finland, water proof finn, yet, i _hate_ the arrogance some > people here have, i know i should probably be the last person talking > about arrogance, but i still _hate_ it. coz of the fact government > gives us everything (education at least) for free, we grow up in a > twisted way, and probably coz of the fact of not enough light in > the winter, we grow up without manners to socialice with other also > intelligent people. > > anyway, i heard and saw in the past that linus were a nicer person > in a reality, but it seems that the alcohol is making it's work, > after all, it's a fact that finnish people use excessive amounts of > it. I think you're overstating the case. Linus isn't the typical Finn, and he wasn't like this when he was unknown. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 17:42:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21774 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:42:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21758 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi8Uc-0001hC-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: <34972F80.13B17608@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:48:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" CC: Ken.Monville@FergInc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux References: <199712161800.NAA00459@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > I have added it to my signature line: how do you like it? :-). > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, and > jdyson@nc.com | it irritates the pig. :-). Looks good. I believe, as another user pointed out, this is a quote from the character Lazarus Long, from Robert A. Heinlein's _Time Enough for Love_. My .sig came from a horrible software development project I worked on a couple of years ago. Another engineer and I were given the task of completely rewriting a 200,000 line (or so) video routing switcher (as used in TV stations) to perform 40x faster, RIGHT NOW. It took use nearly a year, but we got it done. We ended up with 66,000 lines of rather nicely structured C++ that had most of the functionality of the original, and a few features you could *never* implement in the original. We both quit when our employer decide that rather than use this code as the basis for a new release, they would just shelve it as a custom one-off. Doh! So anyhow, I walked into my office one morning and my partner in crime, Mark Matthews, had written this on the top of my whiteboard. It stayed there until I left the company 9 months (and nearly 3600 hours) later. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 17:55:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23292 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23234 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:55:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi8i2-0002Yx-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:55:38 -0700 Message-ID: <349732C0.8B4F7101@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:02:40 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel Configurator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > If there were a (semi) GUI application that assisted the user in selecting > a relevant, compatible set of options and then allowed him/her to build > the resulting kernel, would that be useful to any of you? Do you think it > would be useful to FreeBSD/UNIX rookies? Yes, but configuring a kernel is not something you do every day. For that reason alone, such a project won't have a big impact on day-to-day admin. If, on the other hand, it's a project to get to know new tools or a new language, it would certainly be a useful goal to attain. So: what are you going to do it in? I can see a killer JavaScript here. But then, I'm growing webs between my fingers these days. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 18:06:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24221 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24198; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi8rR-0003B7-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:05:21 -0700 Message-ID: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:12:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG CC: questions@freesbd.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Support for secure http protocols Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBies and Gentlehackers, I've been working on a project to provide an essential service for FreeBSD users via a web/http interface. (No, I'm not ready to discuss it yet, I don't have time to answer 5,000 questions about "why don't you do it this ways"). Suffice it to say that several of you will be interested in it. Now, for the meat of the question. This service will need secure communications with the http server in question. I've looked and looked, and haven't found anything approaching a W3C or IETF decision on secure communications for http. The IETF is apparently waiting for the W3C to make up its collective mind, and W3C has done so much waffling on this issue they've hired Aunt Jemima as their hacker relations expert. So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to have garnered more support in the real world. I've cc'd the questions, hackers, and isp mail lists because they represent, collectively, the FreeBSD user base, core development team, and the people most familiar with web servers. Please note that I've directed followups to me, and to the chat list. I'm mostly looking for a poll of what others have implemented, and why, as opposed to a philosophical discussion of the merits of each; I've read too much of this in the flame wars being traded between Netscape and Terisa. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 18:49:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27553 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27546 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:48:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01288; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:48:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199712170248.VAA01288@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs linux In-Reply-To: from Jonathan Chen at "Dec 17, 97 09:38:47 am" To: jonc@pinnacle.co.nz (Jonathan Chen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:48:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Chen said: > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Wes Peters said: > > > > > > A corollary to this is the old admonition: > > > > > > "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it just makes you look stupid > > > and irritates the pig." > > > > > I have added it to my signature line: how do you like it? :-). > > > > How about: > > "Never wrestle in the mud with pigs, > you only get dirty and the pigs just love it" > Wow!!! I love that one also!!! -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, and jdyson@nc.com | it irritates the pig. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 19:08:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29201 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29137; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (ras519.srv.net [205.180.127.19]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA03188; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:07:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:06:58 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com cc: questions@freesbd.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to > implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There > is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to > have garnered more support in the real world. I've said this once before, but I think the way to go is to operate an "anonymous" ssh server on the web server, and then have the client application set up a secure proxy connection to the host via existing the existing port remapping (-L option) in ssh. I think anonymous ssh could have a similar impact to anonymous ftp. Ssh based clients would use the anonymous user name the same way web browsers do for ftp right now. Ssh and sshd are already universal in the unix world, and the Wintel variant (F-Secure) is reasonably priced. Why not encapsulate security as much as possible in an ssh framework? Then developers could stop thinking about the subtleties and cross-national implications of licensing. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 20:15:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04573 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04558 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:14:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04671; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:14:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA11573; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:14:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:14:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199712170414.VAA11573@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Charles Mott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: References: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Restricted to -chat like the original author asked ] > Ssh and sshd are already universal in the unix world, and the Wintel > variant (F-Secure) is reasonably priced. And doesn't have nearly the necessary features, is unstable, and due to port forwarding is a *huge* security risk unless the system administrator has set things up securely. SSH is a *GREAT* solution for many things, but for secure HTTP stuff I don't think it's a very good solution. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 20:17:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04836 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04492 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04656; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA11554; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:12:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:12:06 -0700 Message-Id: <199712170412.VAA11554@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> References: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to > implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There > is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to > have garnered more support in the real world. HTTP-SSL. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 20:50:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08079 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:50:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08066 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (ras535.srv.net [205.180.127.35]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id VAA03294; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:50:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:49:54 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Nate Williams cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <199712170414.VAA11573@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ssh and sshd are already universal in the unix world, and the Wintel > > variant (F-Secure) is reasonably priced. > > And doesn't have nearly the necessary features, is unstable, and due to > port forwarding is a *huge* security risk unless the system > administrator has set things up securely. Any secure server is a risk unless the administrator does his job. Even after that it is still a risk. Public key encryption is only as secure as the private keys. What necessary features are missing? How easy are they to add to the framework so that they can make ssh (or a derivative) useful? I can already see applications for which it can be used right now. > SSH is a *GREAT* solution for many things, but for secure HTTP stuff I > don't think it's a very good solution. I don't say use ssh for web commerce (yet), but if I had to set up a secure server (http, but maybe something else) for a limited clientele, then I personally would seriously consider an ssh solution. It works well and it encapsulates the both security and legal headaches. If you're goal is the next, great on-line commerce server, then ssh isn't the answer. But if your customer is a business or association of some sort that already thinks ssh is a good idea and has the infrastructure in place, then I think ssh makes sense even for http. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 21:20:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10175 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10138; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:20:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xiBia-0001Pr-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:08:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:08:24 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > "anonymous" ssh server on the web server, and then have the client Except that this does not deal with authentication. This is what the SSL certificate system does for you. Suggestion? Go SSL. It is standard now. It can be used for many protocols, as it can encapsulate nearly socket type date (stands for "secure sockets layer"). You can get apache-ssl from ports. Get a certificate from a certificate granting authority (ex. Verisign), and your done. Works with all standard browser now. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 21:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10929 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10922 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA05122; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:27:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA11814; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:27:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:27:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199712170527.WAA11814@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Charles Mott Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: References: <199712170414.VAA11573@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Ssh and sshd are already universal in the unix world, and the Wintel > > > variant (F-Secure) is reasonably priced. > > > > And doesn't have nearly the necessary features, is unstable, and due to > > port forwarding is a *huge* security risk unless the system > > administrator has set things up securely. > > Any secure server is a risk unless the administrator does his job. Even > after that it is still a risk. Public key encryption is only as secure as > the private keys. Yes, but the default setup means that any machine you can connect to allows you to do port forwarding to any machine that the server machine can connect to. This feature is not widely understood/known about. > What necessary features are missing? The ability to have a connection to the HTTP server w/out requiring a login account. The ability to use arbitrarily run commands 'rsh' style simply and easily. > How easy are they to add to the > framework so that they can make ssh (or a derivative) useful? Not easy, because of Win95's inherent limitations. > > SSH is a *GREAT* solution for many things, but for secure HTTP stuff I > > don't think it's a very good solution. > > I don't say use ssh for web commerce (yet), but if I had to set up a > secure server (http, but maybe something else) for a limited clientele, > then I personally would seriously consider an ssh solution. But, that isn't necessarily what Wes was asking about. Yes, SSH works as a great 'secure' connection so you can limit your clientele, but it also means that it is a 'limited' solution that requires alot of maintainence on the server/client end, and is not for the faint of heart. (We're using it locally, but it's non-trivial to setup and maintain.) > It works well > and it encapsulates the both security and legal headaches. Not legal, if your clients are not in the US. (ITAR obnoxiousness.) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 21:29:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11125 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11109 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA13442; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:29:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA22783; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:27:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:27:28 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > > So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to > > implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There > > is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to > > have garnered more support in the real world. > > I've said this once before, but I think the way to go is to operate an > "anonymous" ssh server on the web server, and then have the client > application set up a secure proxy connection to the host via existing the > existing port remapping (-L option) in ssh. > > I think anonymous ssh could have a similar impact to anonymous ftp. Ssh > based clients would use the anonymous user name the same way web browsers > do for ftp right now. > > Ssh and sshd are already universal in the unix world, and the Wintel > variant (F-Secure) is reasonably priced. Why not encapsulate security as > much as possible in an ssh framework? Then developers could stop thinking > about the subtleties and cross-national implications of licensing. Using ssh doesn't avoid copyright issues, unless you are referring only to the protocol. Using ssh doesn't avoid export restrictions; just because it is available (or orginated) around the world doesn't mean it can be exported from the US. Using ssh doesn't let you use any current browser without setup hassles. Any solution needs integration. Using ssh doesn't provide for client certificates. Using ssh doesn't provide any way for the web server to know about the state of the content. Using ssh doesn't provide any way for the user to tell that their information is being encrypted from their web client. Using ssh is too heavyweight (ie. imposes a number of extra RTTs to a connection setup) for http. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 21:29:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11152 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:29:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11134 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA13443; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:29:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA22788; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:29:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:29:36 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: softweyr@xmission.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > FreeBies and Gentlehackers, > > I've been working on a project to provide an essential service for FreeBSD > users via a web/http interface. (No, I'm not ready to discuss it yet, I > don't have time to answer 5,000 questions about "why don't you do it this > ways"). Suffice it to say that several of you will be interested in it. > Now, for the meat of the question. SSL is the only thing to use currently for a wide support of clients. Note that you have licensing issues in the US (ie. can't implement SSLv2 without license from RSA or using RSAREF, which can only be used for noncommercial purposes) and export restrictions. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 21:45:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12407 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:45:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12402 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xiBkN-0001Pw-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:10:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:10:15 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to > implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There > is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to > have garnered more support in the real world. SSL. It already exists as an RFC. It can ecapsulate nearly any socket protocol (watch for SSL imap). It also works with every browers now. You can also use it now via the apache-ssl port. Just get a certificate. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 22:50:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16077 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16037 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:49:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xiD7Q-0001Rp-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:38:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:38:07 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > Suggestion? Go SSL. It is standard now. It can be used for > > many protocols, as it can encapsulate nearly socket type date (stands for > > "secure sockets layer"). > > I'll look at the standard. I'm no expert, but I can feel the weight of > logic and clear reasoning crashing against my ssh suggestion. If somehow > SSL could be separated from end-use applications (maybe an ssld comparable > to inetd for processing and directing traffic) that would be nice. You could always write one. The SSLeay library is kinda cool too. You can take some existing sockets based application, and change the calls to use the lib, and presto, it has become secure (maybe not that simple, but you get the idea). See material on the SSLeay (though probably illegal in the US, you probably want the RSAref library). See the apache-ssl port as an example. > Charles Mott Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 22:59:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16420 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu [134.84.115.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16410 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:59:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu) Received: from x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA15798; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712170626.AAA15798@x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu> From: mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu To: Wes Peters cc: The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel Configurator In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:02:40 MST." <349732C0.8B4F7101@xmission.com> References: <349732C0.8B4F7101@xmission.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:54 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:02:40 -0700 Wes Peters wrote >The Classiest Man Alive wrote: >> >> If there were a (semi) GUI application that assisted the user in selecting >> a relevant, compatible set of options and then allowed him/her to build >> the resulting kernel, would that be useful to any of you? Do you think it >> would be useful to FreeBSD/UNIX rookies? > >Yes, but configuring a kernel is not something you do every day. For that >reason alone, such a project won't have a big impact on day-to-day admin. >If, on the other hand, it's a project to get to know new tools or a new >language, it would certainly be a useful goal to attain. But the current state of affairs in configuring kernels is not good for UNIX rookies. Although I agree that a GUI would be misguided here, there are other ways to make the process friendlier. If you really want to help, how about a tutorial on kernel configuration, with a few good "walked-through" examples. The man pages are clear and concise, but some people don't like that. Meanwhile, the BSD docs are too in-depth, and not something that can be digested easily. Just my .02..... -- Chris Mikkelson mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu U of M Tuba and Student "Life is too short for windows..." '94-present From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 23:05:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16743 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16697 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id AAA16291; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:04:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23279; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:03:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:03:19 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > Using ssh doesn't avoid copyright issues, unless you are referring only to > > the protocol. > > > > Using ssh doesn't avoid export restrictions; just because it is available > > (or orginated) around the world doesn't mean it can be exported from the > > US. > > If it is readily available, why does it have to be exported? Software > which is sold can be separated from encryption. Overseas setup is a > secondary issue. Clients can be designed to invoke ssh without actually > having to be bundled with ssh. In general, that is not a good assumption to make. The Apache-SSL patches contain no encryption code (but just hooks to call SSLeay stuff) but still face export restrictions. At one point, PGP support (PEM hooks) was in NCSA (and Apache); no crypto code, just hooks for it. It had to be removed by order of the NSA due to export restrictions. If you can make the hooks general enough it can be done, however if you want to advertise them for the purpose of adding encryption, etc. that just doesn't work. In any case, few commercial applications find it acceptable to have to hunt down and install some other outside package just to work. You also need ssh licenses. > > Using ssh doesn't let you use any current browser without setup hassles. > > Any solution needs integration. > > Point the browser to http://localhost:port to start out with, but this is > a setup hassle to start out with as you point out. It would be nice to > have browsers which could point to an http_ssh:// or > ftp_ssh://, though. But then browser standards have been > ceded to Microsoft and Netscape, so such a thing could never or happen (or > could it?). It could if it made sense. But it really doesn't. > > If one thinks of http as the greatest achievement of mankind and that no > other server protocols will come into existence, then I think that putting No, the correct thought is that HTTP is the worst achievement of mankind and therefore no other protocols will exist. > alot of effort into https (or is it shttp?) makes sense. But suppose one > wants to generate procedures for having automatic encryption of any non-IP > encoding protocol, then I think building ssh hooks into new applications > may actually make sense. IPsec is really the solution to a more generic solution. I don't see any room for a hack like this between the two, except in very specialized situations. [...] > Still, I see ssh as the best way to start separating applications from > crypotography. A lot of work is going into IPsec. Commercial and non-commercial implementations are available, although somewhat lacking in key management. That is a far better solution. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 23:11:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17268 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gorilla.net (zgordial142.gorilla.net [208.128.8.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16849 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:06:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@gorilla.net) Received: (from tom@localhost) by gorilla.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA00321; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:06:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19971217010607.14005@net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:06:07 -0600 From: Tom Jackson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: test, ignore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org this a mess! From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 23:20:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17960 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17952 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:20:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (ras535.srv.net [205.180.127.35]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id XAA03401; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:29:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:29:04 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Tom cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Suggestion? Go SSL. It is standard now. It can be used for > many protocols, as it can encapsulate nearly socket type date (stands for > "secure sockets layer"). I'll look at the standard. I'm no expert, but I can feel the weight of logic and clear reasoning crashing against my ssh suggestion. If somehow SSL could be separated from end-use applications (maybe an ssld comparable to inetd for processing and directing traffic) that would be nice. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 16 23:20:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17966 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17954 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:20:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (ras535.srv.net [205.180.127.35]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id XAA03393; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:21:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:20:46 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home Reply-To: Charles Mott To: Marc Slemko cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Using ssh doesn't avoid copyright issues, unless you are referring only to > the protocol. > > Using ssh doesn't avoid export restrictions; just because it is available > (or orginated) around the world doesn't mean it can be exported from the > US. If it is readily available, why does it have to be exported? Software which is sold can be separated from encryption. Overseas setup is a secondary issue. Clients can be designed to invoke ssh without actually having to be bundled with ssh. > Using ssh doesn't let you use any current browser without setup hassles. > Any solution needs integration. Point the browser to http://localhost:port to start out with, but this is a setup hassle to start out with as you point out. It would be nice to have browsers which could point to an http_ssh:// or ftp_ssh://, though. But then browser standards have been ceded to Microsoft and Netscape, so such a thing could never or happen (or could it?). If one thinks of http as the greatest achievement of mankind and that no other server protocols will come into existence, then I think that putting alot of effort into https (or is it shttp?) makes sense. But suppose one wants to generate procedures for having automatic encryption of any non-IP encoding protocol, then I think building ssh hooks into new applications may actually make sense. > Using ssh doesn't provide for client certificates. > > Using ssh doesn't provide any way for the web server to know about the > state of the content. Clearly ssh isn't a good idea for transaction oriented on-line exchanges of money. In terms of making information available, but not subject to eavesdroping (anonymous ssh), or restricted to a specific group of people (ssh with specific usernames), then I think ssh with port forwarding makes sense. And especially if other protocols in addition to http are desired. > Using ssh doesn't provide any way for the user to tell that their > information is being encrypted from their web client. That goes back to the browser integration issue discussed above. > Using ssh is too heavyweight (ie. imposes a number of extra RTTs to a > connection setup) for http. Yes. A there are constraints, and one would not want to use it in a high traffic situation -- more computers would be needed and either round-robin DNS or load-balancing NAT would be needed. Still, I see ssh as the best way to start separating applications from crypotography. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 07:29:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18256 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18244 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA03973; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:29:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:29:00 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Marc Slemko cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IPsec is really the solution to a more generic solution. I don't see any > room for a hack like this between the two, except in very specialized > situations. [...] > > A lot of work is going into IPsec. Commercial and non-commercial > implementations are available, although somewhat lacking in key > management. That is a far better solution. I still think port 22 encapsulation of crypto has alot of advantages. I acknowledge it doesn't do everything, but suppose a divert socket daemon exists which does the following. On outgoing traffic, it checks whether a remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which already exist in natd and ppp -alias. Clients could be completely decoupled from crypto (they wouldn't even have to know about ssh port forwarding) . If checking for ssh on the fly is too slow, then this could be diabled and a static list of addresses having port 22 support could be used. This would be good for e-mail and and company databases. A secure server would only listen on port 22 and have all its other ports walled off from the outside world. Servers could also be optionally secure. Also, if IP tunneling were embedded in ssh (is it already?), that would solve another big problem all in one coherent framework. And UDP port 22 support would be nice, too. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 11:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02885 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:08:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02801; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA09301; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma009293; Wed Dec 17 11:07:15 1997 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA26924; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199712171907.LAA26924@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <34973506.B112548D@xmission.com> from Wes Peters at "Dec 16, 97 07:12:22 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:07:15 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@freesbd.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > So, my question is: if I have the capability (time, interest, etc) to > implement only ONE secure http transport, which one should it be? There > is a draft ieft standard for S-HTTP, but Netscape et al HTTP-SSL seems to > have garnered more support in the real world. I think SSL is more prevalent than SHTTP. Also, there already exists a version of Apache (called Stronghold I think) that includes SSL. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 11:27:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04894 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:27:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04874 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:27:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA09939; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:26:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13503; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:26:57 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:26:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199712171926.MAA13503@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Charles Mott Cc: Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I still think port 22 encapsulation of crypto has alot of advantages. I > acknowledge it doesn't do everything, but suppose a divert socket daemon > exists which does the following. On outgoing traffic, it checks whether a > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. > Clients could be completely decoupled from crypto (they wouldn't even have > to know about ssh port forwarding) . Actually, they do. To enable port forwarding, you must connect to 'localhost', and not to the normal host you want to connect to. In short, you can't use SSH seamlessly and expect things to work with/without it. Finally, you mentioned UDP. UDP is not supported, nor do I believe there is any intent to support it inside of SSH. (DataFellows, the folks who make the commercial SSH client for windows has a VPN product that will forward *all* connections to a remote network, but that is even more obnoxious to setup/use than SSH tunnel.) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 12:56:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12817 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bigbrother (bigbrother.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12689 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:56:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bigbrother (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA29242 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:53:49 -0500 Received: from fault.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.18) by bigbrother.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029238; Wed, 17 Dec 97 15:53:03 -0500 Received: (from vshah@localhost) by rstcorp.com (8.8.1/8.8.1) id PAA10755; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712172054.PAA10755@rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Polo shirts X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know if there are pictures of these on the web site anywhere? I wanted to get a look at all the colors before choosing a shirt. I just looked at both the Walnut Creek and the FreeBSD sites -- neither of them have any pictures (or mention of the polos). Also, are the T-shirts that are available of a newer design? Or are they the ones where the Daemon is walking out of the CD? Viren -- Viren R. Shah | Reliable Software Technologies | viren@rstcorp.com viren@viren.org http://www.rstcorp.com | http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 13:44:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16703 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:44:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16104 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA04764; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:38:25 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:37:53 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Nate Williams cc: Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <199712171926.MAA13503@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > I still think port 22 encapsulation of crypto has alot of advantages. I > > acknowledge it doesn't do everything, but suppose a divert socket daemon > > exists which does the following. On outgoing traffic, it checks whether a > > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host > > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which > > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. > > Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' > use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you > are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is > intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. I don't think you understand what I am talking about. See paragraph below. I know what ssh does. I also know what tcp does. > > > Clients could be completely decoupled from crypto (they wouldn't even have > > to know about ssh port forwarding) . > > Actually, they do. To enable port forwarding, you must connect to > 'localhost', and not to the normal host you want to connect to. Read my posting more carefully. Note the reference to natd and ppp -alias. Suppose a packet is is destined for a remote host. In principle, outbound packets can be selectively redirected via NAT type processing to a local port brought up by ssh. When a new connection is needed a new ssh port forwarding relationship could be established (or perhaps when ssh is started up a group of ports could be snarfed up and reused as necessary). Or a new ssh connection with a desired port forwarding relationship can be established for each connection. What I don't know is whether port forwarding relationships can be dynamically created and destroyed during a single ssh session. Probably not, but desirable. This process as described is transparent to the client. I honestly think your comments were condescending without being knowledgable. Of all people, you should be aware that I understand networking at a detailed level. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 14:24:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20370 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:24:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19817 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA11137; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:18:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA14340; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:18:47 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:18:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199712172218.PAA14340@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Charles Mott Cc: Nate Williams , Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: References: <199712171926.MAA13503@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host > > > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which > > > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. > > > > Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' > > use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you > > are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is > > intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. > > I don't think you understand what I am talking about. See paragraph > below. I know what ssh does. I also know what tcp does. You've changed the subject. The original subject was supporting secure HTTP, and now we're dealing with a very specialized setup, and the point is that SSH won't work for the generic solution, and your comments imply that it would work. Now that we've changed the background, it *may* work, but I'm not convinced that the commercial SSH client for Windows is up to the task. I've spent the last couple of months dealing with the issues, so I'd like to think I have a clue here. (Not saying that you don't, but your comments imply to me that you don't have experience with the Wintel SSH client, or understand all that SSH attempts to solve and what it doesn't attempt to solve.) > What I don't know is whether port forwarding relationships can be > dynamically created and destroyed during a single ssh session. Probably > not, but desirable. Definitely not desirable due to security issues. And, if you allow port forwarding then you've got a security hole you can drive a truck through. ;( Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 14:43:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22265 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:43:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22256 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA04902; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:42:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:42:18 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Nate Williams cc: Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <199712172218.PAA14340@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host > > > > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which > > > > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. > > > > > > Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' > > > use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you > > > are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is > > > intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. > > > > I don't think you understand what I am talking about. See paragraph > > below. I know what ssh does. I also know what tcp does. > > You've changed the subject. The original subject was supporting secure > HTTP, and now we're dealing with a very specialized setup, and the point > is that SSH won't work for the generic solution, and your comments imply > that it would work. Now that we've changed the background, it *may* > work, but I'm not convinced that the commercial SSH client for Windows > is up to the task. I've spent the last couple of months dealing with > the issues, so I'd like to think I have a clue here. I haven't used F-Secure, so I don't know the Windows side of ssh. What I am suggesting will, in principle, work via FreeBSD (with divert sockets) to sshd on any platform. The notion is to dynamically bring up ssh connections as needed in a transparent manner using NAT to point to forwarded ports on the local host. The actual shell part of ssh isn't the important think here, and a dummy shell could be brought up for anonymous connections. It will secure any tcp protocol and in a way completely transparently to clients, be they http, various mail protocols, or whatever. I think the main downside is that it imposes a high load on system resources. The notion of combining NAT and ssh port forwarding also gives VPN, but only over TCP and not UDP or ICMP. > > What I don't know is whether port forwarding relationships can be > > dynamically created and destroyed during a single ssh session. Probably > > not, but desirable. > > Definitely not desirable due to security issues. And, if you > allow port forwarding then you've got a security hole you can drive a > truck through. ;( I admit that I'd have to think about what restrictions on port forwarding would be necessary. I just don't think this the killer talking point that you think it is. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 17:41:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05137 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:41:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (sprice@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05124 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:40:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA17209 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:40:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:40:47 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sony GDM-1692B in text mode? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anybody had success in getting a Sony GDM-1962B monitor to work in text mode? Anybody know what an appropriate 'modeline' would be for X's config file? Anybody have one working with XInside's version 1.2 server? I know this is alot of questions, but I have the chance to pick one up quite cheap. This monitor used to be mine at a previous employer and it brings back lots of memories. Besides, I need to get rid of my 13" monitor. :) BTW, I have a Number 9 I128 video card with 4Mb of RAM and am running -current if that matters. TIA, Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 18:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08415 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:27:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu [134.84.115.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08405 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:27:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu) Received: from x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA19295; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:29:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712180229.UAA19295@x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu> From: mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu To: Steve Price cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sony GDM-1692B in text mode? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:40:47 CST." References: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:29:50 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:40:47 -0600 (CST) Steve Price wrote >Has anybody had success in getting a Sony GDM-1962B monitor >to work in text mode? Anybody know what an appropriate >'modeline' would be for X's config file? Anybody have one >working with XInside's version 1.2 server? Is this a 19" trinitron monitor with 3 BNC connectors on the back, and sync-on-green? If so, then I might be sitting in front of an HP-packaged one right now. Upshot is, ther is no way that I know of to get it working _with a standard video card_ in text mode. There is a company that sells special video cards which will drive fixed-frequence graphics displays in VGA text mode, but I was under the impression that they are expensive and not supported in XFree86, but that may have changed. Other than that, I'd be glad to send you my modeline -- if we have the same monitor, that is.... BTW: If your monitor is what I think it is, what sort of hardware are you using to connect a VGA card to it? -- Chris Mikkelson mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu U of M Tuba and Student "Life is too short for windows..." '94-present From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 17 19:02:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10428 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:02:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10241 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt2-134.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.134]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA07657; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:50:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34989056.31DFF4F5@hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:54:14 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sony GDM-1962B in text mode? References: <199712180229.UAA19295@x115-105.reshalls.umn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote: > > Is this a 19" trinitron monitor with 3 BNC connectors on the back, > and sync-on-green? If so, then I might be sitting in front of > an HP-packaged one right now. > No actually it is a Sun-packaged 19" monitor with a 13W3 connector, but it is sync-on-green. This is about the only info I have found out about it. http://www.nashville.net/~griffin/monitors/Sun08.html > Upshot is, ther is no way that I know of to get it working _with > a standard video card_ in text mode. There is a company that > sells special video cards which will drive fixed-frequence graphics > displays in VGA text mode, but I was under the impression that > they are expensive and not supported in XFree86, but that > may have changed. > I've seen these cards but they kind of defeat the purpose of buying an inexpensive monitor when you have to turn right around and buy an expensive video card. > Other than that, I'd be glad to send you my modeline -- if we > have the same monitor, that is.... > Please do. > BTW: If your monitor is what I think it is, what sort of hardware > are you using to connect a VGA card to it? If you mean the cable, it is a D15 male to 13W3 female. For further details you can look at http://www.ultraspec.com/vidindx.htm BTW, I meant to say this was a GDM-1962B monitor and not GDM-1692B as the subject used to say. :) Steve > -- > Chris Mikkelson mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu > U of M Tuba and Student "Life is too short for windows..." > '94-present From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 08:23:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29660 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:23:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29653 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:22:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17315; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:22:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA16470; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:22:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:22:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199712181622.JAA16470@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: converting drivers to dynamic memory... In-Reply-To: <199712181335.AAA00353@word.smith.net.au> References: <19971218035032.46460@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> <199712181335.AAA00353@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org mike writes: > "Real hackers run -current with DEVFS and SLICE on their laptops" Now, I'm not sure if I'd call that something to be proud of. ;) 'People with little regard to keeping their disks from scrambled run ......' *grin* Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 10:42:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12055 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12031 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id LAA04686; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:41:35 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199712181841.LAA04686@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Sony GDM-1692B in text mode? To: sprice@HiWAAY.net (Steve Price) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:41:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Steve Price" at Dec 17, 97 07:40:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Has anybody had success in getting a Sony GDM-1962B monitor > to work in text mode? You could get a DB-15 A/B switch and a cheap 9" white VGA monitor to use in text mode. This is a little clumsy, but still much cheaper than a comparable 19" monitor. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 14:17:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27291 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:17:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27266 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfesler@calweb.com) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA23713; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:16:57 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo devnull from jfesler@calweb.com server @devnull.calweb.com ip 207.173.135.51 Message-ID: <005101bd0c02$bc0d2d50$3387adcf@devnull.calweb.com> From: "Jason Fesler" To: "Charles Mott" , "Nate Williams" Cc: "Marc Slemko" , Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:17:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been following this thread with some interest; I'm interested in doing something a bit similiar. I'm contemplating the tought of setting up SSH end-to-end, and running ppp -direct over the SSH'd TCP connection. Only one tunnel would need to be made; from there, you have a routable interface, that you can route subnets at. The cool part of this, is that *any* connection routed via that PPP link, will be happy. HTTP.. pop.. whatever. And, it's using easily available parts that aren't proprietory to some router. Downside: Commercial use of SSH. Server is $495, client is $99 - bare minimum needed to make this work. However, it's a might bit cheaper than what Datafellows want for their version of a VPN - something like 10 times as expensive. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Mott To: Nate Williams Cc: Marc Slemko ; chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Nate Williams wrote: >> > I still think port 22 encapsulation of crypto has alot of advantages. I >> > acknowledge it doesn't do everything, but suppose a divert socket daemon >> > exists which does the following. On outgoing traffic, it checks whether a >> > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host >> > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which >> > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. >> >> Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' >> use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you >> are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is >> intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. > >I don't think you understand what I am talking about. See paragraph >below. I know what ssh does. I also know what tcp does. > >> >> > Clients could be completely decoupled from crypto (they wouldn't even h ave >> > to know about ssh port forwarding) . >> >> Actually, they do. To enable port forwarding, you must connect to >> 'localhost', and not to the normal host you want to connect to. > >Read my posting more carefully. Note the reference to natd and ppp >-alias. Suppose a packet is is destined for a remote host. In principle, >outbound packets can be selectively redirected via NAT type processing to >a local port brought up by ssh. When a new connection is needed a new ssh >port forwarding relationship could be established (or perhaps when ssh is >started up a group of ports could be snarfed up and reused as necessary). >Or a new ssh connection with a desired port forwarding relationship can be >established for each connection. > >What I don't know is whether port forwarding relationships can be >dynamically created and destroyed during a single ssh session. Probably >not, but desirable. > >This process as described is transparent to the client. > >I honestly think your comments were condescending without being >knowledgable. Of all people, you should be aware that I understand >networking at a detailed level. > >Charles Mott > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 14:39:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28907 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:39:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp3.portal.net.au [202.12.71.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28898 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:39:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01683; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:03:43 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199712182233.JAA01683@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Nate Williams cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: converting drivers to dynamic memory... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:22:43 PDT." <199712181622.JAA16470@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:03:43 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > mike writes: > > "Real hackers run -current with DEVFS and SLICE on their laptops" > > Now, I'm not sure if I'd call that something to be proud of. ;) > > 'People with little regard to keeping their disks from scrambled run > .......' I think the point I'm trying to make is that I'm really touchy about scrambling my systems, and it works well enough for me that I'm actually doing day-to-day work on a DEVFS/SLICE system now. (I'm sort-of fibbing actually, in that I don't run with that on my laptop all the time, as there appear to be problems with X and DEVFS.) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 14:54:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29962 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29921 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (ras517.srv.net [205.180.127.17]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA06824; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:53:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:52:53 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Jason Fesler cc: Nate Williams , Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols In-Reply-To: <005101bd0c02$bc0d2d50$3387adcf@devnull.calweb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you disable IP forwarding from the pppd at the far end of the link (e.g. no proxy arp) then traffic will be limited and encrypted to that particular server. That's actually a pretty clean solution and decidedly superior to what I was suggesting. One could even have a login account for ssh which goes directly to ppp. I'm glad someone derived something positive from this thread. It felt like I was being continuously bombarded by rotten tomatoes -- the usual case when one suggests or tries to develop a new idea. Charles Mott On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Jason Fesler wrote: > I've been following this thread with some interest; I'm interested in > doing something a bit similiar. I'm contemplating the tought of setting > up SSH end-to-end, and running ppp -direct over the SSH'd TCP > connection. Only one tunnel would need to be made; from there, > you have a routable interface, that you can route subnets at. The cool > part of this, is that *any* connection routed via that PPP link, will be > happy. > HTTP.. pop.. whatever. And, it's using easily available parts that aren't > proprietory to some router. > > Downside: Commercial use of SSH. Server is $495, client is $99 - bare > minimum needed to make this work. However, it's a might bit cheaper than > what Datafellows want for their version of a VPN - something like 10 times > as expensive. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Mott > To: Nate Williams > Cc: Marc Slemko ; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:03 PM > Subject: Re: Support for secure http protocols > > > >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > >> > I still think port 22 encapsulation of crypto has alot of advantages. > I > >> > acknowledge it doesn't do everything, but suppose a divert socket > daemon > >> > exists which does the following. On outgoing traffic, it checks > whether a > >> > remote host has sshd. If so, it redirects all traffic to that host > >> > through port 22 using port forwarding. This builds on techniques which > >> > already exist in natd and ppp -alias. > >> > >> Unfortunately, things don't work that way. The only time 'automatic' > >> use of the old ports occur is on unix (not Wintel), and *only* when you > >> are first setting up the connection (again, only on Unix.) This is > >> intended as a replacement for rsh, which doesn't exist on Wintel boxes. > > > >I don't think you understand what I am talking about. See paragraph > >below. I know what ssh does. I also know what tcp does. > > > >> > >> > Clients could be completely decoupled from crypto (they wouldn't even h > ave > >> > to know about ssh port forwarding) . > >> > >> Actually, they do. To enable port forwarding, you must connect to > >> 'localhost', and not to the normal host you want to connect to. > > > >Read my posting more carefully. Note the reference to natd and ppp > >-alias. Suppose a packet is is destined for a remote host. In principle, > >outbound packets can be selectively redirected via NAT type processing to > >a local port brought up by ssh. When a new connection is needed a new ssh > >port forwarding relationship could be established (or perhaps when ssh is > >started up a group of ports could be snarfed up and reused as necessary). > >Or a new ssh connection with a desired port forwarding relationship can be > >established for each connection. > > > >What I don't know is whether port forwarding relationships can be > >dynamically created and destroyed during a single ssh session. Probably > >not, but desirable. > > > >This process as described is transparent to the client. > > > >I honestly think your comments were condescending without being > >knowledgable. Of all people, you should be aware that I understand > >networking at a detailed level. > > > >Charles Mott > > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 18 21:20:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23304 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m16.boston.juno.com (m16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23297 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wakkym@juno.com) Received: (from wakkym@juno.com) by m16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ARW27094; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:18:59 EST To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Internal modem suckage (was: close() on a modem taking a long time?) Message-ID: <19971219.001640.5295.0.wakkym@juno.com> References: <199712190353.UAA02805@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9,19-21 From: wakkym@juno.com (Lee Cremeans) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:18:59 EST Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [diverging from the topic at hand...redirected to -chat] On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:53:01 +0000 (GMT) Terry Lambert writes: > >If the modem is internal, well, then you get what you deserve >(internal >modems suck). Well, to be honest, internal modems were (and I stress "were") fine for casual use in BSD up until recently. A lot of the internals these days are Plug-and-Play, or UART-less, or (fear and loathing time) BOTH. The USR WinModems are perfect examples of this; the things should burn in hell as far as I'm concerned... :P At least with some PnP modems, they have real UARTs on board, and you can at least USE them after you get the PnP configured--not so with WInModems. If I get another modem, it'll most likely be an external, and not until 56K is standardised...Im currently running on a 1995-vintage Cardinal/Rockwell 28.8, one that actually has jumpers on it (FreeBSD loves it). From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 19 00:21:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02906 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:21:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02872 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:21:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id JAA24952 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:21:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA24943; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:12:55 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:12:55 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199712190812.JAA24943@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Organization: Private BSD site, Dresden X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E References: <199712181841.LAA04686@xmission.xmission.com> From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Subject: Re: Sony GDM-1692B in text mode? X-Original-Newsgroups: local.freebsd.chat To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > You could get a DB-15 A/B switch and a cheap 9" white VGA monitor to > use in text mode. This is a little clumsy, but still much cheaper than > a comparable 19" monitor. At least with pcvt (where i've tested it), it's sorta possible to use a cheap Hercules card & monitor as the text screen. Of course, you gotta tell your BIOS that the Hercules is the primary display then. You still have to ``switch screens'' from and to X11. That's mainly necessary in order to arbitrate the keyboard between the VTYs. The Xserver also switches to what it thinks its own VTY were, so you can't see the normal text console output (on /dev/ttyv0) while X11 is running. I think it might be possible to convince the Xserver/ console driver part of displaying both simultaneously, but it would be a bit of work. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 19 12:39:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16280 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from foo.bar.com (F181-169.net.wisc.edu [144.92.181.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16256 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@foo.bar.com) Received: from localhost (jesse@localhost) by foo.bar.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA00377; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:41:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:41:10 -0600 (CST) From: "jtkipp@students.wisc.edu" Reply-To: zaphod@imailbox.com To: kev@lab321.ru cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Old virus hoax was NEW VIRUS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2047832875-882520870=:342" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-2047832875-882520870=:342 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This one is my personal favorite. It makes me laugh every time I read it. (for those of you who have yet to see it.) (it's attached.) ciac.llnl.gov has a pretty clear handle on what is a hoax, and what is not. ------------ "And mama said, That's what you get for jumping on the bed!" Jesse Kipp, zaphod@imailbox.com, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu ------------ On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, jack wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Eugeny Kuzakov wrote: > > > >> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!! > > Won't this damned thing EVER die? --0-2047832875-882520870=:342 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="goodtimes.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: UkVBRCBUSElTOg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgR29vZHRpbWVzIHdpbGwgcmUt d3JpdGUgeW91ciBoYXJkIGRyaXZlLiBOb3Qgb25seSB0aGF0LCBidXQNCiAg ICAgaXQgd2lsbCBzY3JhbWJsZSBhbnkgZGlza3MgdGhhdCBhcmUgZXZlbiBj bG9zZSB0byB5b3VyIGNvbXB1dGVyLiBJdA0KICAgICB3aWxsIHJlY2FsaWJy YXRlIHlvdXIgcmVmcmlnZXJhdG9yJ3MgY29vbG5lc3Mgc2V0dGluZyBzbyBh bGwgeW91ciBpY2UNCiAgICAgY3JlYW0gZ29lcyBtZWx0eS4gSXQgd2lsbCBk ZW1hZ25ldGl6ZSB0aGUgc3RyaXBzIG9uIGFsbCB5b3VyIGNyZWRpdA0KICAg ICBjYXJkcywgc2NyZXcgdXAgdGhlIHRyYWNraW5nIG9uIHlvdXIgdGVsZXZp c2lvbiBhbmQgdXNlIHN1YnNwYWNlIGZpZWxkDQogICAgIGhhcm1vbmljcyB0 byBzY3JhdGNoIGFueSBDRCdzIHlvdSB0cnkgdG8gcGxheS4NCg0KICAgICAg ICAgICAgIEl0IHdpbGwgZ2l2ZSB5b3VyIGV4LWdpcmxmcmllbmQgeW91ciBu ZXcgcGhvbmUgbnVtYmVyLiBJdA0KICAgICB3aWxsIG1peCBLb29sLWFpZCBp bnRvIHlvdXIgZmlzaHRhbmsuIEl0IHdpbGwgZHJpbmsgYWxsIHlvdXIgYmVl ciBhbmQNCiAgICAgbGVhdmUgaXRzIHNvY2tzIG91dCBvbiB0aGUgY29mZmVl IHRhYmxlIHdoZW4gdGhlcmUncyBjb21wYW55IGNvbWluZw0KICAgICBvdmVy LiBJdCB3aWxsIHB1dCBhIGRlYWQga2l0dGVuIGluIHRoZSBiYWNrIHBvY2tl dCBvZiB5b3VyIGdvb2Qgc3VpdA0KICAgICBwYW50cyBhbmQgaGlkZSB5b3Vy IGNhciBrZXlzIHdoZW4geW91IGFyZSBsYXRlIGZvciB3b3JrLg0KDQogICAg ICAgICAgICAgR29vZHRpbWVzIHdpbGwgbWFrZSB5b3UgZmFsbCBpbiBsb3Zl IHdpdGggYSBwZW5ndWluLiBJdCB3aWxsDQogICAgIGdpdmUgeW91IG5pZ2h0 bWFyZXMgYWJvdXQgY2lyY3VzIG1pZGdldHMuIEl0IHdpbGwgcG91ciBzdWdh ciBpbiB5b3VyDQogICAgIGdhcyB0YW5rIGFuZCBzaGF2ZSBvZmYgYm90aCB5 b3VyIGV5ZWJyb3dzIHdoaWxlIGRhdGluZyB5b3VyDQogICAgIGdpcmxmcmll bmQgYmVoaW5kIHlvdXIgYmFjayBhbmQgYmlsbGluZyB0aGUgZGlubmVyIGFu ZCBob3RlbCByb29tIHRvDQogICAgIHlvdXIgRGlzY292ZXIgY2FyZC4NCg0K ICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJdCB3aWxsIHNlZHVjZSB5b3VyIGdyYW5kbW90aGVy LiBJdCBkb2VzIG5vdCBtYXR0ZXIgaWYgc2hlDQogICAgIGlzIGRlYWQsIHN1 Y2ggaXMgdGhlIHBvd2VyIG9mIEdvb2R0aW1lcywgaXQgcmVhY2hlcyBvdXQg YmV5b25kIHRoZQ0KICAgICBncmF2ZSB0byBzdWxseSB0aG9zZSB0aGluZ3Mg d2UgaG9sZCBtb3N0IGRlYXIuDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICBJdCBtb3ZlcyB5 b3VyIGNhciByYW5kb21seSBhcm91bmQgcGFya2luZyBsb3RzIHNvIHlvdSBj YW4ndA0KICAgICBmaW5kIGl0LiBJdCB3aWxsIGtpY2sgeW91ciBkb2cuIEl0 IHdpbGwgbGVhdmUgbGliaWRpbm91cyBtZXNzYWdlcyBvbg0KICAgICB5b3Vy IGJvc3MncyB2b2ljZSBtYWlsIGluIHlvdXIgdm9pY2UhIEl0IGlzIGluc2lk aW91cyBhbmQgc3VidGxlLiBJdA0KICAgICBpcyBkYW5nZXJvdXMgYW5kIHRl cnJpZnlpbmcgdG8gYmVob2xkLiBJdCBpcyBhbHNvIGEgcmF0aGVyDQogICAg IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHNoYWRlIG9mIG1hdXZlLg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAg R29vZHRpbWVzIHdpbGwgZ2l2ZSB5b3UgRHV0Y2ggRWxtIGRpc2Vhc2UuIEl0 IHdpbGwgbGVhdmUgdGhlDQogICAgIHRvaWxldCBzZWF0IHVwLiBJdCB3aWxs IG1ha2UgYSBiYXRjaCBvZiBNZXRoYW5waGVkaW1lIGluIHlvdXIgYmF0aHR1 Yg0KICAgICBhbmQgdGhlbiBsZWF2ZSBiYWNvbiBjb29raW5nIG9uIHRoZSBz dG92ZSB3aGlsZSBpdCBnb2VzIG91dCB0byBjaGFzZQ0KICAgICBncmFkZXNj aG9vbGVycyB3aXRoIHlvdXIgbmV3IHNub3dibG93ZXIuDQoNCiAgICAgICAg ICAgICBMaXN0ZW4gdG8gbWUuIEdvb2R0aW1lcyBkb2VzIG5vdCBleGlzdC4N Cg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgIEl0IGNhbm5vdCBkbyBhbnl0aGluZyB0byB5b3Uu IEJ1dCBJIGNhbi4gSSBhbSBzZW5kaW5nIHRoaXMNCiAgICAgbWVzc2FnZSB0 byBldmVyeW9uZSBpbiB0aGUgd29ybGQuIFRlbGwgeW91ciBmcmllbmRzLCB0 ZWxsIHlvdXINCiAgICAgZmFtaWx5LiBJZiBhbnlvbmUgZWxzZSBzZW5kcyBt ZSBhbm90aGVyIEUtbWFpbCBhYm91dCB0aGlzIGZha2UNCiAgICAgR29vZHRp bWVzIFZpcnVzLCBJIHdpbGwgdHVybiBoYXRpbmcgdGhlbSBpbnRvIGEgcmVs aWdpb24uIEkgd2lsbCBkbw0KICAgICB0aGluZ3MgdG8gdGhlbSB0aGF0IHdv dWxkIG1ha2UgYSBob3JzZWhlYWQgaW4geW91ciBiZWQgbG9vayBsaWtlDQog ICAgIEVhc3RlciBTdW5kYXkgYnJ1bmNoLg0KDQogICBTbyB0aGVyZSwgdGFr ZSB0aGF0IEdvb2QgVGltZXMuDQo= --0-2047832875-882520870=:342-- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 19 13:47:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21590 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:47:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21509 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23836; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:46:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd023770; Fri Dec 19 14:46:28 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16670; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:46:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199712192146.OAA16670@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internal modem suckage (was: close() on a modem taking a long time?) To: wakkym@juno.com (Lee Cremeans) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:46:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971219.001640.5295.0.wakkym@juno.com> from "Lee Cremeans" at Dec 19, 97 00:18:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [diverging from the topic at hand...redirected to -chat] > >If the modem is internal, well, then you get what you deserve > >(internal > >modems suck). > > Well, to be honest, internal modems were (and I stress "were") fine for > casual use in BSD up until recently. A lot of the internals these days > are Plug-and-Play, or UART-less, or (fear and loathing time) BOTH. The > USR WinModems are perfect examples of this; the things should burn in > hell as far as I'm concerned... :P At least with some PnP modems, they > have real UARTs on board, and you can at least USE them after you get the > PnP configured--not so with WInModems. If I get another modem, it'll > most likely be an external, and not until 56K is standardised...Im > currently running on a 1995-vintage Cardinal/Rockwell 28.8, one that > actually has jumpers on it (FreeBSD loves it). Internal modems generally float RS232 signals they shouldn't, since they don't use RS232 connections, but pretend to be RS232 devices hooked to an external port hooked to a UART. This is usually a problem for CTS/RTS handling when DCD is low (ie: there is no connection). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 06:58:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA20717 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20695 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:58:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22960; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:57:44 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199712201457.MAA22960@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Polo shirts In-Reply-To: <199712172054.PAA10755@rstcorp.com> from "Viren R. Shah" at "Dec 17, 97 03:54:16 pm" To: viren@rstcorp.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:57:44 -0200 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Viren R. Shah) // Anyone know if there are pictures of these on the web site anywhere? I // wanted to get a look at all the colors before choosing a shirt. // I just looked at both the Walnut Creek and the FreeBSD sites -- // neither of them have any pictures (or mention of the polos). // // Also, are the T-shirts that are available of a newer design? Or are // they the ones where the Daemon is walking out of the CD? I'd like to see one without the CD. Just the daemon. ANyway, one does not need a CD to install FreeBSD. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 10:25:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02438 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02397 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa27423; 20 Dec 97 13:24 EST Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.18]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10558; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12370; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:24:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:24:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: zaphod@imailbox.com cc: kev@lab321.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Old virus hoax was NEW VIRUS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu wrote: > This one is my personal favorite. It makes me laugh every time I read it. > (for those of you who have yet to see it.) > > (it's attached.) > > ciac.llnl.gov has a pretty clear handle on what is a hoax, and what is > not. I used to view email viruses, like the Good Times Virus, as an ammusing joke. After all, what could email/plain text do? Well, then Microsoft created the ability to email word documents with Word macros that are run when you open it. Oh the horror! MS realized the email virus! If it's a bad idea, we can count on MS to be the first to bring it to us. Adrian > ------------ > "And mama said, That's what you get for jumping on the bed!" > Jesse Kipp, zaphod@imailbox.com, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu > ------------ > > On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, jack wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Eugeny Kuzakov wrote: > > > > > >> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!! > > > > Won't this damned thing EVER die? > Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualzation Lab -->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 12:01:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09855 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pinky.dyn.ml.org (host77-69.airnet.net [209.64.77.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09784; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@ninbsdbox.dyn.ml.org) Received: from ninbsdbox.dyn.ml.org (ninbsdbox [10.1.0.7]) by pinky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00300; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:59:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <349C23AC.350A8E28@ninbsdbox.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:59:40 -0600 From: "Kris Kirby, KE4AHR" Reply-To: kris@airnet.net Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PnP soundcard init without DOS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-chat end I have an OPTi 931 PnP sound card and I am rather tired of rebooting the machine into M$DO$ to get my soundcard working. I would like to know if anyone has a PnP sound card addition to the kernel, or has made one that hasn't been incorporated into the RELEASE. My Soundcard is SB compatible and MSS compatible, depending on how the card setup utility writes it. Thanks -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- A Person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. -- Kay, in MiB, copyright Sony Pictures Imageworks From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 13:27:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15493 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:27:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (J+5s3GNkQXTvob0VTtlA99ThgQDx4dg6@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15479 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:27:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07971 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:27:08 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:27:08 +0100 (MET) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199712202127.WAA07971@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Polo shirts Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > #define quoting(Viren R. Shah) > // Anyone know if there are pictures of these on the web site anywhere? I > // wanted to get a look at all the colors before choosing a shirt. > // I just looked at both the Walnut Creek and the FreeBSD sites -- > // neither of them have any pictures (or mention of the polos). > // > // Also, are the T-shirts that are available of a newer design? Or are > // they the ones where the Daemon is walking out of the CD? > > I'd like to see one without the CD. Just the daemon. A few months ago, I made a bunch of T-shirts (for me and my friends) with the BSD daemon "Chuck" and the FreeBSD slogan (well, the old slogan, not the new one). The graphics file that I used is online at this URL: http://fromme.com/t-shirt/ You can use it if you want to make your own FreeBSD T-shirt (or FreeBSD Polo shirt or FreeBSD pants or whatever ;-). I made that image by scanning the 2.0.5 CD-ROM cover, removing everything that didn't belong to Chuck (including the CD which partially covered him, so I had to draw a new tail and parts of his left foot) and adding a bit of text. Regards Oliver PS: You can see me wearing such a T-shirt on this picture: http://fromme.com/hip/pix2/hip31.html (I hope you don't mind that there's also a poor soul wearing a Linux T-shirt on that picture... ;-) -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 15:53:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23754 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:53:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23727 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id AAA20346 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:53:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA04102; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:37:50 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971221003750.46564@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:37:50 +0100 From: J Wunsch To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sbin/fsck main.c Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch References: <199712202224.OAA00705@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199712202224.OAA00705@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Bruce Evans on Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 02:24:33PM -0800 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Bruce Evans wrote: > bde 1997/12/20 14:24:33 PST > > Modified files: > sbin/fsck main.c > Log: > Fixed style bugs in the printing of statistics after preening. Use > floating point better in the percentage calculation there to avoid > overflow when there are more than about 20 million fragments. Someone with more than 20 million fragments might have another problem than just the printout of fsck. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 16:22:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25206 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us (flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us [192.251.193.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25198 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benji@flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us) Received: (from benji@localhost) by flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us (8.8.8/8.8.8/haven-2.42M-971214) id TAA22707 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:22:41 -0500 (EST) From: behind brown eyes Message-Id: <199712210022.TAA22707@flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us> Subject: Re: Old virus hoax was NEW VIRUS To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:22:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" at Dec 20, 97 01:24:44 pm Organization: Where the Wild Things Are X-Personal-Deity: Dionysus X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Adrian T. Filipi-Martin: > I used to view email viruses, like the Good Times Virus, as an > ammusing joke. After all, what could email/plain text do? Well, then > Microsoft created the ability to email word documents with Word macros > that are run when you open it. Oh the horror! MS realized the email > virus! If it's a bad idea, we can count on MS to be the first to bring it > to us. > I don't think Netscape, with their HTMLized, JavaScript enhanced e-mail is any better, either. benji -- Benjamin R. Cline Large Furry Mammal benji@haven.boston.ma.us "I'm more than ever of the opinion that a decent human existence is possible today only on the fringes of society." -- Hannah Arendt From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 17:09:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27286 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27282 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) id DAA21466 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:13:06 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199712210113.DAA21466@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: damn it, limux strikes again... In-Reply-To: <19971217090759.19672@lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 17, 97 09:07:59 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:13:06 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think you're overstating the case. Linus isn't the typical Finn, > and he wasn't like this when he was unknown. only non typical thing for a finn he's done is the os. but the attitudes, that's normal finn... uh, i should know, i have a 28 years long continuing experience on that one... and based on the knowledge from knowing his "friends" back in 92-95 the attitude about "linux saves the world" and so on, he's gotten that too from the beginning, unless ofcourse those people invented it themselves, which i find hard to believe. he may have not presented it quite like that way, but he sure didnt slow down fanatics either... i probably saw/met linus several times back then, but since i never was introduced to him, and was in no way interested in meeting/finding out what he is about, i wouldnt know... i met a relatively lots of people. (after all, helsinki is a small city, and my school was the "next school" from his, the linux people in my school were his direct friends, and all the students in the city go more or less to same places...) back then, my school's admin chose freebsd, and i kinda "followed" him, and to many people, running freebsd instead of linux was like screaming communists slogans in the states in 1950s... they were determined to "prove" their superrior "free" operating system... it was all about "how dare you use something else when you have a _finnish_ product?" "that can not be as good as..." "you cant do this and that, and that either..." trust me, you dont want to know about it. yes, yes, i'm ranting, but this _is_ chat, and my "first contact" and first impressions with linux people was not a "friendly" from their side... but, i used to date a girl who ran linux and we did agree on not talking about OS, nor trying to convert the other, it worked. =) but i'll shut up now, probably should've been shut up... > Greg mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 20 21:07:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08561 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08549 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:07:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xjdc3-0003Qq-00; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:07:39 -0700 Message-ID: <349CA587.DD49B92@xmission.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:13:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: behind brown eyes CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Old virus hoax was NEW VIRUS References: <199712210022.TAA22707@flash-gordon.haven.boston.ma.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org behind brown eyes wrote: > I don't think Netscape, with their HTMLized, JavaScript enhanced e-mail is > any better, either. But JavaScript at least isn't allowed to delete all of the files on your disk, or other nefarious deeds. The worst it could would be something on the order of sticking a talking paper clip in your face. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com