From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 19 12:38:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12796 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from buford.the-link.net (proxy.zebra.net [209.136.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12757 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Received: from shell.zebra.net (shell.zebra.net [209.12.240.129]) by buford.the-link.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20216 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:41:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (saten@localhost) by shell.zebra.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA01273; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:35:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:35:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Mark Diekhans , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD JVM crashes and burns in public... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > How is this suppose to us feel better?!?! Don't you understand that > someone who has no clue and will read this article will thing that free > software is crap? DON'T YOU? I'd rather have someone use Linux then > Microsoft. Jeez... go read http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713/ > > -- Yan Just because we are related (FreeBSD+Linux) at the free software level does not mean we are friends. This is the real world, you do not gain market share by having people use someone elses operating system. No one ever said Linux was crap, I was just pointing out that we were not butched and other OS's scored a less-than-wanted review. It just happens that other OS was also a free one. And, yes, our java support needs a lot of work. It is not yet the best, but in time it will be. To develop a market share required to be one of the key players, we must also aquire a competive state of mind. Not all out bashing of another operating system, but proving that we are better. In that benchmark, we lost. The java program core dumped, making us lose. We did, infact, score better on how fast the program ran; if I remember correctly. Please do not jump all over me for and START TYPING IN CAPS for no apparent reason except because you did not like me basicly saying that both OS's failed the benchmark. FreeBSD and Linux both need major work in their Java support, this is true for our OS's, I did not say all free software sucks. If I did, I would have no reason to continue to do what I am. -- Phillip Salzman eclipse@gulf.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 19 21:19:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17289 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17284 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26147; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:18:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B2C51E.8CA33C9A@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:18:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phillip Salzman CC: "Jan B. Koum" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD JVM crashes and burns in public... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Phillip Salzman wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > > > How is this suppose to us feel better?!?! Don't you understand that > > someone who has no clue and will read this article will thing that free > > software is crap? DON'T YOU? I'd rather have someone use Linux then > > Microsoft. Jeez... go read http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713/ > > Just because we are related (FreeBSD+Linux) at the free software > level does not mean we are friends. This is the real world, you do not > gain market share by having people use someone elses operating system. In this case, I believe you do. Linux is more known, but with most stuffed suits, there is little difference between Linux and "some other free unix." If Linux gets the door opened to free systems, FreeBSD can walk through that open door. In many ways, FreeBSD can suitably portray itself as an UPGRADE to Linux. The relationship is somewhat like the comparision between NT and 95: the same, only more. Faster, more reliable, runs on more limited hardware. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 19 23:37:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03359 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03354 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3h-30.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.127]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01134 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:36:41 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980719233442.0069d378@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:34:42 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Unix Groups and Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was reading in a Microtimes magazine and I came across a listing for a Unix Users group. If any of you are in the Orange County (California) area you might want to check out www.uuasc.org That's Unix Users Association of Southern California. In the listing and on their page they mention that they welcome all Unix users to matter what flavor they prefer (Solaris, SVR4, Linux, ..., BSD). I figured that User Groups are a good form of Unix Advocacy so I decided to let you all know about this Group. They might not be FreeBSD centric, but at least they claim to be openminded. Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 20 02:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14523 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14518 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id CAA08985; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:35:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Phillip Salzman cc: Mark Diekhans , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD JVM crashes and burns in public... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Phillip Salzman wrote: >On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > >> >> How is this suppose to us feel better?!?! Don't you understand that >> someone who has no clue and will read this article will thing that free >> software is crap? DON'T YOU? I'd rather have someone use Linux then >> Microsoft. Jeez... go read http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713/ >> >> -- Yan > > Just because we are related (FreeBSD+Linux) at the free software >level does not mean we are friends. This is the real world, you do not >gain market share by having people use someone elses operating system. No no no.. You see, we actually ARE friends. Because if we wouldn't be friends, then it will be much easier for other to break Free Software apart. Our power is in togetherness. Too bad you still don't get it. > > No one ever said Linux was crap, I was just pointing out that we >were not butched and other OS's scored a less-than-wanted review. It just >happens that other OS was also a free one. I think you said something like "At least Linux sucked also" (sorry, don't have your original eMail). To which I replied it would be better to have at least one OS kick MS butt then none. > > Please do not jump all over me for and START TYPING IN CAPS for no >apparent reason except because you did not like me basically saying that >both OS's failed the benchmark. FreeBSD and Linux both need major work in >their Java support, this is true for our OS's, I did not say all free >software sucks. If I did, I would have no reason to continue to do what I >am. > Uhm.. OK! -- Yan >-- >Phillip Salzman >eclipse@gulf.net > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 14:04:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12180 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:04:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12098; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17229; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:16 -0600 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. They even oppose the notion of "Open Source" software; see http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html >There's a large percentage of the Open Source Software built with Gnu >compilers and tools and seeing each group attending this forum >wanting a splintered cut of the take would discourage cooperation. Contributing to the FSF discourages cooperation, as it openly disparages all other forms of "open source" software (again, see the Web page cited above). >I think we can let this opportunity to be difficult slide. I think it's vital to take it. >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting Linux. I think that FreeBSD's advocacy group should make a formal request that if O'Reilly is to call the event an "Open Source Town Hall," it is inappropriate for the proceeds to go to one faction that consistently denigrates all other viewpoints. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 14:18:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15335 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15239 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 6134 invoked by uid 1001); 21 Jul 1998 21:17:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Jul 1998 21:17:25 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:17:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: Brett Glass cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the > >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. > > Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Why should we feel compelled to be just as whiny as the Linux folks, assuming that they are whiny? > Supporting FSF *is* supporting Linux. No, supporting the FSF is supporting the GPL way of thinking. > I think that FreeBSD's advocacy group should make a formal request that > if O'Reilly is to call the event an "Open Source Town Hall," it is > inappropriate for the proceeds to go to one faction that consistently > denigrates all other viewpoints. The 'Open Source' brand has rapidly become just another case of doublespeak. 'Open Source' advocates overwhelmingly rally around Linux, and even though the official definition of 'Open Source' encompasses efforts such as FreeBSD, we're not walking the 'straight and narrow' path that is the main thrust of 'Open Source' advocates such as Eric Raymond. Just take a dose of reality along with the 'Open Source' movement's 'idealism'. =) Seriously though, I don't think that fighting the 'Open Source' people is productive. Dragging them into a fight drags us down to a lower moral level, and gets mud on everyone. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 14:24:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16682; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02010; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807212121.OAA02010@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brett Glass cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:16 MDT." <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:21:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the > >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. > > Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting > Linux. Definitely. > I think that FreeBSD's advocacy group should make a formal request that > if O'Reilly is to call the event an "Open Source Town Hall," it is > inappropriate > for the proceeds to go to one faction that consistently denigrates all other > viewpoints. The challenge here is to compete effectively for mindspace with the Linux crowd without wearing the decidedly unprofessional image that comes with their tactics. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 14:26:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17226 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17168 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17645; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:25:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807212125.PAA17645@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:25:08 -0600 To: Jason Evans From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:17 PM 7/21/98 -0700, Jason Evans wrote: >The 'Open Source' brand has rapidly become just another case of >doublespeak. 'Open Source' advocates overwhelmingly rally around Linux, >and even though the official definition of 'Open Source' encompasses >efforts such as FreeBSD, we're not walking the 'straight and narrow' path >that is the main thrust of 'Open Source' advocates such as Eric Raymond. >Just take a dose of reality along with the 'Open Source' movement's >'idealism'. =) Actually, FSF doesn't support the concept of "Open Source" at all. That's what's so ironic. Here you have a conference called the "Open Source Town Hall" donating its proceeds to a group that openly and repeatedly denigrates the concept of "Open Source" on its Web site. Look at the page http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html and see for yourself. Since the Free Software Foundation does not support the concept of "Open Source," it is antithetical to the purpose of an "Open Source" conference to force attendees to contribute money to it. This is a major faux pas for which O'Reilly should be remonstrated soundly. It is not appropriate to ask supporters of the Open Source concept to donate to a group that openly and strongly opposes it. I think that Jordan, as a speaker, should point this out -- and we should all send e-mail, too. Good people to mail at O'Reilly might be Tim O'Reilly (tim@oreilly.com) and Sara Winge, the publicity person (sara@oreilly.com). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 14:45:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22896 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01725 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:44:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:44:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: desktop contest being advertised? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I was goofing around and went to the Themes page (http://themes.org/) and saw a click thru banner for the X Desktop contest! I didn't realize it was being advertised so heavily - neat. (back to working on my own package for the contest) :-) Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ Daemon-News http://daemon-news.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 15:57:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04316 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04296 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 7078 invoked by uid 24); 21 Jul 1998 22:55:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19980721225541.7077.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:53:50 -0700 To: Jason Evans , Brett Glass From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm speaking at the Town Meeting... and just found out today about the "$10 to FSF" deal. I suggested to my contact at ORA they make it a recommended donation, not an entrance fee; we'll see what happens. I'm not opposed to it, I'll still come and speak. Though I hope someone brings boxing gloves :) Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 16:01:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05013 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04997 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:00:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19410; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:00:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807212300.RAA19410@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:00:22 -0600 To: Brian Behlendorf , Jason Evans From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <19980721225541.7077.qmail@hyperreal.org> References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What.... You mean they sprang this shenanigans on the SPEAKERS with no warning? This is appalling, and definitely cause for protest. We should spread the word. --Brett At 03:53 PM 7/21/98 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > >I'm speaking at the Town Meeting... and just found out today about the "$10 >to FSF" deal. I suggested to my contact at ORA they make it a recommended >donation, not an entrance fee; we'll see what happens. I'm not opposed to >it, I'll still come and speak. Though I hope someone brings boxing gloves :) > > Brian > > >--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- >"Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org >acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:03:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16258 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16095; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA08254; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:10:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18085 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17967 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10899; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Jason Evans , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:53:50 PDT." <19980721225541.7077.qmail@hyperreal.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:34 -0700 Message-ID: <10896.901066114@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I agree, we shouldn't mandate the $10. Put my vote in alongside yours when you talk to Tim. ;) - Jordan > > I'm speaking at the Town Meeting... and just found out today about the "$10 > to FSF" deal. I suggested to my contact at ORA they make it a recommended > donation, not an entrance fee; we'll see what happens. I'm not opposed to > it, I'll still come and speak. Though I hope someone brings boxing gloves :) > > Brian > > > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- > "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org > acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:12:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18710 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18585; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02892; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930." <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:58 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > > That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we should not stop using GPL'd software. Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or have their development supported substantially by the FSF. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:21:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20945 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20783; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA08302; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:08:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >>> >>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. >>> >>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to >>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. >> >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they > are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we > should not stop using GPL'd software. I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 groff perl sort Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source of: cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no intention of even trying to change. > Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost > none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or > have their development supported substantially by the FSF. gcc, gdb, Emacs, bash, grep, awk? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:42:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24768 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24749; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03042; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930." <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:02 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >>> > >>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > >>> > >>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > >>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > >> > >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > > > You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they > > are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we > > should not stop using GPL'd software. > > I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was > rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in > /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: > > bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison > dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 > groff perl sort > > Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source > of: > > cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort > > I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no > intention of even trying to change. I never suggested otherwise. I merely ask you what makes you think that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the development of these tools. I didn't even touch on whether we should be considering supporting other organisations and individuals which support and develop other worthwhile material but receive less support already. > > Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost > > none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or > > have their development supported substantially by the FSF. > > gcc, gdb, Cygnus are the only organisation that seems to have spent any real time on these of late, and that significantly with funding from commercial vendors. You omitted the binutils, which fall into the same category. > Emacs, A cast of thousands. > bash, I never use it. > grep, A cast of several, with no clear affiliation (other than that the bit written by RMS is the worst). > awk? An FSF original. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:46:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25461 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:46:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1661.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25398; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17206; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:45:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980721204519.A15969@zappo> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:45:19 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > They even oppose the notion of "Open Source" software; see > > http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html Your comment is somewhat misleading... That reference is a specific attack on Eric Raymond's preferred set of lingo. I think the below-quote basically sums the reference: "The obvious meaning for ``open source'' is ``You can get the source code.'' This category is distinctly not the same as free software." I think most of us will agree with that. Especially those of us who have argued in the past that GNU software is not free software. On a related note, I'm not sure what I think of their Free Software Award, but if _someone_ has to win that, it sure would be cool (and probably a good thing in a grand universal-harmony sense) to see someone from the "BSD camp" win that. Isn't chairman of the award committee Peter Salus known to prefer BSD (sans advertising clause) license? > Contributing to the FSF discourages cooperation, as it openly disparages > all other forms of "open source" software (again, see the Web page cited > above). Try again. You could probably find some web page showing that the FSF disparages all other forms of "open source" software, but that is _definately_ not it. > >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the > >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. > > Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting > Linux. Unfortunately, I think this is true. The problem, though, is that of all the _creditable_ organizations I can think of offhand, the FSF is the only one even close to supporting all free software. I trust esr to administer money quite a bit less than I trust rms, for example. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 17:55:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27329 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27310; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21379; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:54:44 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. The "people who supply it" will not get any of the money. The money will go entirely to an organization whose purpose is to promote the GPL, and software published under it, to the detriment of those who don't agree that the GPL is The Word. In short, to the detriment of FreeBSD. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:01:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28011 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27977; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21498; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:00:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220100.TAA21498@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:00:35 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:20 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". >There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite >possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because >they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to >ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation >is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main >contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. It's not "their stuff." Others contributed all but a miniscule part of the time and effort. What's certain is that they will use the money to promote GPL'ed software AT THE EXPENSE OF efforts like FreeBSD. Worse still, the speakers at the event (including Jordan and Brian) were snookered. They weren't informed that there would be an admission charge or that it would go entirely to a group that does not support, and in many cases actively opposes, what they do because it doesn't fall under the Holy GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:02:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28325 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28298; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA08786; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:31:27 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:31:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 06:54:44PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 18:54:44 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > The "people who supply it" will not get any of the money. The money will > go entirely to an organization whose purpose is to promote the GPL, and > software published under it, to the detriment of those who don't agree that > the GPL is The Word. In short, to the detriment of FreeBSD. In fact, I've just looked at the FSF web page, and it brought back to me that I keep confusing the FSF and the GNU project. What I was talking about is really the GNU project, the people who actually deal in software, rather than the FSF, which is a political wing rather akin to Sinn Fein. I've never been too keen on them. OK, then, who *should* get the donation? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:03:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28444 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28439; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03158; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220100.SAA03158@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930." <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:00:16 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". > There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite > possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because > they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to > ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation > is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main > contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. Not an unreasonable question. I would want to ask "what are they going to do for me"? Perhaps it is time for them to move on? It's all a bit rhetorical, as I won't be able to go anyway. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:16:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00106 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29967; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21772; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:07 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >In fact, I've just looked at the FSF web page, and it brought back to >me that I keep confusing the FSF and the GNU project. What I was >talking about is really the GNU project, the people who actually deal >in software, rather than the FSF, which is a political wing rather >akin to Sinn Fein. I've never been too keen on them. They claim that the Free Software Foundation is "a tax-exempt charity that raises funds for work on the GNU Project" -- in short, that the FSF is the GNU Project's fundraising arm. But in fact, the two Web sites http://www.gnu.org and http://www.fsf.org are different in name only. They contain virtually all of the same material. It seems probable that much of the money raised by FSF in fact goes into promoting the GPL over alternatives. >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:20:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00902 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00144; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA08764; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:39:02PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:39:02 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>>>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >>>>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. >>>>> >>>>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to >>>>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. >>>> >>>> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >>>> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. >>> >>> You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they >>> are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we >>> should not stop using GPL'd software. >> >> I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was >> rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in >> /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: >> >> bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison >> dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 >> groff perl sort >> >> Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source >> of: >> >> cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort >> >> I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no >> intention of even trying to change. > > I never suggested otherwise. I merely ask you what makes you think > that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the > development of these tools. Ah. What makes you think I think that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the development of these tools? There were other good reasons mentioned for singling out the FSF (mainly, that they supplied some tools to *every* open source effort, and thus a donation to them wouldn't upset anybody (much :-)) >>> Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost >>> none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or >>> have their development supported substantially by the FSF. >> >> gcc, gdb, > > Cygnus are the only organisation that seems to have spent any real time > on these of late, and that significantly with funding from commercial > vendors. You omitted the binutils, which fall into the same category. I wasn't sure we didn't have an alternative for them. >> Emacs, > > A cast of thousands. But a solid FSF base. >> grep, > > A cast of several, with no clear affiliation (other than that the bit > written by RMS is the worst). How do you recognize that? >> awk? > > An FSF original. OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:33:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03411 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03385; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from shell (shell.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.231]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21259; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@shell To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. > > --Brett Hmm....who should get the money, eh? Good people from good *free* pojects like FreeBSD, KDE, some of the GNU contributors (the Emacs people, etc. I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased towards helping out those who write software for X. :) All this is IMHO of course. :) Joey > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:43:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05163 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05148 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id SAA15837 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:46:15 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212125.PAA17645@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807212125.PAA17645@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:25:08PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:25:08PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > Actually, FSF doesn't support the concept of "Open Source" at all. > That's what's so ironic. Here you have a conference called the "Open > Source Town Hall" donating its proceeds to a group that openly and > repeatedly denigrates the concept of "Open Source" > on its Web site. They are the _F_SF, not the _OS_SF. This should not be a fresh realization -- Stallman has always supported _free_ software. Open source software can have certain strings attached, as RMS points out in Qt's case. The FSF hasn't changed their viewpoint at all. > Since the Free Software Foundation does not support the concept > of "Open Source," it is antithetical to the purpose of an "Open Source" > conference to force attendees to contribute money to it. This is a major > faux pas for which O'Reilly should be remonstrated soundly. An Open Source conference could certainly donate to the FSF, as free software is a subset of open source software. (Indeed, it's a very large subset.) While it's not necessarily best to have all software completely free, it is certainly a good cause. The FSF has done more for Open Source software than any other individual or group I can think of. Where would FreeBSD be without awk, gcc, gdb, or gmake? All of those are both Open Source _and_ free. > It is not appropriate to ask supporters of the Open Source concept > to donate to a group that openly and strongly opposes it. I think I disagree with you. The FSF doesn't oppose Open Source software any more than Linux opposes FreeBSD. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 18:48:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06167 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06044 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem03.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12680; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:21:08 -0400 Message-Id: <35B5414F.B2125E43@asme.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:33:04 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > awk? > > An FSF original. > While this is being discussed, please someone replace gawk with the original ATT's awk, it's even a port already (kawk)! cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 19:06:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09645 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA09579 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 1094 invoked by uid 24); 22 Jul 1998 02:05:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19980722020554.1093.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:41:10 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807220100.SAA03158@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:00 PM 7/21/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >I would want to ask "what are they going >to do for me"? Perhaps it is time for them to move on? Sounds like an excellent opening question for the town meeting. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 19:49:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16547 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:49:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16533 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 15804 invoked by uid 24); 22 Jul 1998 02:48:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19980722024849.15803.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:38:27 -0700 To: Brett Glass From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199807212300.RAA19410@lariat.lariat.org> References: <19980721225541.7077.qmail@hyperreal.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guess what - in real life, things often happen "with no warning", and the less time you spend attributing things like this to suspicious or hostile intent, the more hair on your head you'll keep. The fact remains that the FSF is the most visible group in this space, has the most clearly set agenda for how to spend money, actively solicits donations, and, in my opinion, is today the least polarizing place they could put the money. If they gave it to Linux Intl, or to FreeBSD Inc, clearly there'd be moans from one side of the hall or another. If they split it and gave it to those camps, there might be other groups who'd complain - what about the OpenBSD folks? Split it too many ways and it becomes a bit silly (here Jordan, here's $50, have a nice dinner on us!). I'm not defending their choice, but merely trying to say, don't let it get your goat. This isn't going to be a whole lotta money. If you want to apply emotive force towards generating money for FreeBSD, Inc., there are a number of ways we can do it. I'm willing to bet ORA would consider giving the money from the next one to a different group. I did reiterate to them that it should be a voluntary donation. Brian At 05:00 PM 7/21/98 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >What.... You mean they sprang this shenanigans on the SPEAKERS with >no warning? This is appalling, and definitely cause for protest. We >should spread the word. > >--Brett > >At 03:53 PM 7/21/98 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > >> >>I'm speaking at the Town Meeting... and just found out today about the "$10 >>to FSF" deal. I suggested to my contact at ORA they make it a recommended >>donation, not an entrance fee; we'll see what happens. I'm not opposed to >>it, I'll still come and speak. Though I hope someone brings boxing gloves :) >> >> Brian >> >> >>--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- >>"Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org >>acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org >> > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 20:01:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18438 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18433 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23569; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220301.VAA23569@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:01:11 -0600 To: Brian Behlendorf From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <19980722024849.15803.qmail@hyperreal.org> References: <199807212300.RAA19410@lariat.lariat.org> <19980721225541.7077.qmail@hyperreal.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:38 PM 7/21/98 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >The fact remains that the FSF is the most visible group in this space, has >the most clearly set agenda for how to spend money, actively solicits >donations, and, in my opinion, is today the least polarizing place they >could put the money. If they gave it to Linux Intl, or to FreeBSD Inc, >clearly there'd be moans from one side of the hall or another. Giving money to the FSF *is*, for all practical purposes, giving it to Linux International. They evangelize Linux constantly -- and never FreeBSD. >I'm not defending their choice, but merely trying to say, don't let it get >your goat. This isn't going to be a whole lotta money. If you want to >apply emotive force towards generating money for FreeBSD, Inc., there are a >number of ways we can do it. I'm willing to bet ORA would consider giving >the money from the next one to a different group. Will they remember next time? Or conveniently forget that they'd promised this? (O'Reilly has, so far, shown itself to be squarely in the Linux camp because it believes that's where the money is.) Richard Stallman already has his "genius grant;" he doesn't need more dough right now. I say, let's opt to have the money split a FEW ways THIS time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 20:52:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24615 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1592.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24558; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24808; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:51:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980721235055.A24112@zappo> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:50:55 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:15:07PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:15:07PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. Is there anyone here familiar with both esr and rms who would seriously trust esr over rms with their money? Not to denigrate esr's name, but I certainly wouldn't... [Or, more accurately, "organizations controlled by [esr|rms]".] Somehow splitting the money seems to go against the whole idea of a conference involving all fractions (factions?) in the free software world. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 21:19:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28811 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28794; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24798; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:18:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220418.WAA24798@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:17:58 -0600 To: Tim Vanderhoek , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980721235055.A24112@zappo> References: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:50 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: >Somehow splitting the money seems to go against the whole idea of a >conference involving all fractions (factions?) in the free software >world. Well, giving the money to just one faction is worse. Especially when it's the biggest and is slamming the others publicly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:00:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03664 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03638; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA02304; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:59:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Joey Garcia cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? > > > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. > > > > --Brett > > Hmm....who should get the money, eh? Good people from good *free* pojects > like FreeBSD, KDE, some of the GNU contributors (the Emacs people, etc. > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > All this is IMHO of course. :) I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well put to support. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:06:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04736 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04715; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11446; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:05:42 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Joey Garcia , Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin woke me up to tell me: > > > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > > > All this is IMHO of course. :) > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > put to support. Third. To a vote. All in favor, say 'Aye'. All opposed, shaddup and go back to your cons25 :p. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:12:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05772 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05755; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13416; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd013391; Tue Jul 21 22:12:28 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05092; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220512.WAA05092@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:12:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 09:31:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > > That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. I'd actually be very happy to switch over to TenDRA. Barring that, which no one will ever agree to, because it would actually involve work... I'd be happy to see the money go to Cygnus to pay them to support FreeBSD in binutils, and other places where FreeBSD support is lacking. FSF is not the only source of GNU software, and it's not the only source of Open Source software. How do I know that FSF won't spend the money on HURD? Or spend the money on other things, and use the money they would have spent on those other things themselves, on HURD? Why do I want to support an institution that wants to fragment the Open Source community with yet-another-OS because of NIH? Frankly, I'd prefer subsidizing commercial ports to Linux (which could at least run under emulation). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:15:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06133 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06119 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11734 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: -advocacy or -chat please! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:13:52 -0700 Message-ID: <11730.901084432@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I really don't need to see two copies of this thread, thanks. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:29:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07831 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07813; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id WAA16531; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:31:51 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:05:42AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:05:42AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin woke me up to tell me: > > > > > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > > > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > > project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > > put to support. > > Third. To a vote. All in favor, say 'Aye'. All opposed, shaddup and go > back to your cons25 :p. I still think that the FSF is a good place for the donations to go, but The XFree86 Project is an excellent choice as well. They might need the money more lately because they're doing independent development due to the Open Group's decision. I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have changed the license to a semicommercial one. Of course, if free in this case was GPL, X11 couldn't have been packaged with any commerical Unix. There are tradeoffs to each type of license... and I'm still not convinced which is best. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 22:36:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08713 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08688; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20688; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020672; Tue Jul 21 22:36:08 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06411; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220536.WAA06411@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:36:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 09:50:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison > dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 > groff perl sort > > Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source > of: > > cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort Which of these are maintained by FSF? CVS was originally a non-GPL'ed comp.sources.unix posting. gdb -- well, I have to admit to using backtrace once in a while; however, there are much better (X-only, admittely) source debuggers available. gzip? -- use compress. RCS? Paul Eggert touched it last -- who's he work for? texinfo? Not needed. Bison? Use yacc instead; mostly needed for the non-standard grammars used by GNU make, GCC, GNU configure, etc.. Grep? There are free alternatives. patch? Larry Wall, NOT FSF. awk? Brian Kernighan's version is still actively maintained. perl? Larry Wall, NOT FSF. I would personally not miss it in the slightest; it's yet another syntax-incompatible scripting language. sort? This was a "conveniece" import, like taking GNU tar instead of (the superior) Berkeley "pax". That basically leaves "groff". And that's because the original free "troff" clone for C/A/T typesetting wasn't very good at PostScript. If I want printed copies, I'll buy them from O'Reilly; otherwise I'll use ditroff. > I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no > intention of even trying to change. Fine. Send in your check today... just don't sign my name for me without asking me... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 23:10:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14915 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14910; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25637; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025615; Tue Jul 21 23:09:55 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08751; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220609.XAA08751@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:09:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> from "Gregory Sutter" at Jul 21, 98 10:31:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. That's because DEC wouldn't have funded Project Athena, nor would MIT, which licenses its code under UCB/CMU stlyle license, have participated in its developement. X is a Cathedral, to use ESR's terminology. You can watch the Bazaar all your life and not see Notre Dame rise slowly but surely over the grubby cloth awnings on the street below. Some things are simply not possible in a Bazaar model, mostly things which are long term or require a long term vision. Feel free to work at changing my mind; the day Rockwell lands a man on the moon without public funding would be a good time to tell me "I told you so". Even PBS needed public funding to recreate a tiny pyramid. PS: For all its impressive press, it is very clear to me that the people giving the most attention to ESR's paper have failed to go look at the source code of the project it documents. This is not to denigrate his efforts, but it ain't no Cathedral... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 21 23:17:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15945 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:17:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15910; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26625; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:15:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220615.AAA26625@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:15:46 -0600 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Joey Garcia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:59 AM 7/22/98 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source >project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well >put to support. > > Adrian I like this idea. With X being "privatized," it pays to contribute to keeping the freely-available version up to date. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 01:13:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05565 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05560; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA22733 ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:11:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22780; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:11:27 +0200 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:11:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:07 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > They claim that the Free Software Foundation is "a tax-exempt > charity that raises funds for work on the GNU Project" -- in short, > that the FSF is the GNU Project's fundraising arm. But in fact, the > two Web sites http://www.gnu.org and http://www.fsf.org are > different in name only. They contain virtually all of the same > material. smoergrd@odin ~> nslookup www.fsf.org Server: geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Address: 134.32.44.131 Non-authoritative answer: Name: www.gnu.org Address: 206.126.32.23 Aliases: www.fsf.org 'nuff said. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 01:37:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11442 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from buford.the-link.net (proxy.zebra.net [209.136.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11321 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Received: from shell.zebra.net (shell.zebra.net [209.12.240.129]) by buford.the-link.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA20622 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:39:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (saten@localhost) by shell.zebra.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA16425; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:33:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:33:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop contest being advertised? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was goofing around and went to the Themes page (http://themes.org/) and > saw a click thru banner for the X Desktop contest! Cool, I'm glad to see we are recieving hits from theme. > I didn't realize it was being advertised so heavily - neat. Actually, its not. We have only had two sites with our banner on it. One of those sites (FreeBSD Online) no longer exists. So, themes.org is all we have left. Trae was very nice allowing us to put up the banner, and he even up us in the News Area. If you have any ideas about sites that may host our banner advertisment, please email me! Thanks. Btw, I have finished my article about FreeBSD as a desktop operating system, have we figured out a way to give it to the editors yet? (for daemon-news) -- Phillip Salzman | FreeBSD X11 Desktop Theme Contest eclipse@gulf.net |__ Coordinator http://gulf.net/~eclipse/ | http://www.freebsd.org/~xcontest/ _|_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 06:27:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29804 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1721.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29774; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19577; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:25:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980722092547.C16686@zappo> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:25:47 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. Of course, if free in Naw, then they could just have demanded copyright assignment like the FSF and then have changed the license into a fully commercial one. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 06:58:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02745 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02729 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-79.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.79]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA23700; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:58:04 GMT Message-ID: <35B5EF3D.B6C9DE69@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:55:09 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I vote for Joey's idea. XFree86 needs our support, especially now that TOG is being such anti-freeware pr*cks. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 07:53:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14735 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14715; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23577; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:53:11 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA02038; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:53:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:53:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. > Of course, if free in this case was GPL, X11 couldn't have been > packaged with any commerical Unix. There are tradeoffs to each type > of license... and I'm still not convinced which is best. It depend on what kind of project you're doing, how distributed the set of developers are, in which phase of development you are, and if you think a commercial entity is likely to be able to out-develop your free software team. Just be certain you can manage to have the right license at each and every step (including the ability to change some parts of the license during development if necessary). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 08:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18887 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18880; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00588; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Brett Glass cc: Joey Garcia , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <199807220615.AAA26625@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:59 AM 7/22/98 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > >project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > >put to support. > > > > Adrian > > I like this idea. With X being "privatized," it pays to contribute to keeping > the freely-available version up to date. > > --Brett Absolutly. This is a point I forgot to make. With XFree86 going their own way and the Open Group going theirs, it is indescribably important that the XFree86 people be supported. Who knows... showing that poeple/companies are more willing to give money to a truly open source project as opposed to paying under pressure to an organization with "open" and backs proprietary standards such as Motif.... maybe we a meessage couyld be sent to TOG to shape up. Yes, this last paragraph is very wishful thinking. I also wish the open software community wielded enough clout to make this happen. Hell, I wish they wielded enough clout to start working on their own standards without company politics... now what to we do about developer personalities... cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 14:21:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26886 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 20302 invoked by uid 24); 22 Jul 1998 21:20:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:19:29 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: someone should be starting an archive of these... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm What happens when you install an NT network on a navy ship. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 22 14:41:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00906 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00891; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id OAA19223; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980722144350.F15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:43:50 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:53:04PM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:53:04PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > > changed the license to a semicommercial one. > > This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as > opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing > terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project > encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the > FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to > out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. Sorry, I made an unstated assumption. Locked-down free software is what I should have said. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 07:43:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25964 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA25935; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yzMaP-0005tq-00; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:43:13 +0200 Message-ID: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:43:12 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following was posted to a mailing list dealing (more or less) with general Internet industry events here in South Africa. The posting is by an old net.acquaintance of mine - a NetBSD man, he. However, I found the idea intriguing, and I wondered if anyone in the FreeBSD community might not have useful input. Bear in mind that: (a) SA hangs precariously in the balance between first and third world. (b) SA is going through a bit of a financial crisis. (c) The SA Government and civil service are still reeling from the incredible changes which took place in this country but a few years ago, and are therefore in a state of flux. (d) There are many (MANY) initiatives underway by both the SA Government and the private sector to bring telecommunications (and the net) to disadvantaged (and still very poor) rural communities. The possible implications for, say, health care (to name but one field) you can probably imagine. The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. UniForum SA is the SA arm of UniForum, and it handles the registration for the co.za domain. It is therefore sitting on a large cash cache (haha), and for some time there has been lively debate about how it should apply this money. Does anyone have any statistics / stories about free software / open source software being successfully applied in government / civil service anywhere in the world? I do seem to remember something about the US Post Office using Linux... ----- Forwarded message from Lucio de Re ----- > It has been suggested, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that UniForum SA (no, > I don't currently have a bee in my bonnet about them, as you'll see) > should be petitioning the South African Government to mandate the use > of one or more flavours of Free Unix and other Open Source Software in > Government Departments wherever it is not absolutely essential to use > proprietary software. This mandate should even require Government > Departments to investigate the possibility of using Free Software to > replace existing proprietary systems, and in addition should require > careful consideration of submissions to ensure that they facilitate, > rather than preclude, later migration to Free Software. > > The concept is nothing short of genial, specially in the cash-strapped > situation our government finds itself. Irrespective, then, of a role > UniForum may be able to play in this issue, I'd like to open a > discussion as to whether this is as desirable as I perceive it, what > its merits and disadvantages are, and how (a) Government should embark > on such a project and (b) how we can lobby Government to do so and (c) > how Government can rely on the local community to ensure that the > necessary support is available. > > Just an idea, but one that has now been bugging me for a while, and > definitely required venting. > > ++L ----- End forwarded message ----- -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 08:34:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03929 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03924 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19981 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Surplus 2.2.6 CDs available for promotional purposes. Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:33:00 -0700 Message-ID: <19976.901207980@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With this latest release of FreeBSD 2.2.7 on CD, I now have over 5000 surplus 2.2.6 CD sets (the full 4 CD set) and I'd like to give them to good homes. Before you get all excited, please allow me to qualify that statement substantially: Because it would also cost something on the order of $30,000 or some significant fraction thereof to mail these out individually, and since giving them away individually isn't really what I had in mind anyway, I'm going to set the "minimum order" at 25 CDs. This doesn't mean that you should take 25 in order to get one, this means that you should *not even bother* to send me mail unless you have a very definite use for 25 or more CDs! Good uses for these CDs do not include reselling them to put your kids through college or chucking them out of a box on your local street corner since those aren't quite the kinds of advocacy activities I had in mind either. What I'm really interested in here are those truly dedicated advocates who are willing to press CDs into carefully selected people's hands and, at the minimum, give them a quick sales pitch on just what it is they're getting. Advocates who make me even happier are the those who go to some extra trouble to print up a single sheet flyer or promotional booklet describing the virtues of FreeBSD, along with any local FreeBSD resources that the recipient might be interested in, and wrapping that around a CD before giving it to its new owner. For extra brownie points, take some CDs to your local library (make sure they handle things like CDs first though), computer shop, computer swap meet, local ISP or (major brownie points!) high school or college. If you've read all of the above and still think that you fit the bill, then please send me the following information: 1. Number of CDs desired. This can be anything from 25 - 250, though if you're interested in the larger quantities then you'd also be prepared to justify your numbers. Most people are tempted to start too big and then find themselves with surplus CDs so I prefer people who are just starting out (or don't have some planned event with a definite head count) to start small and, should they do better than expected, simply ask me for more CDs. With this kind of surplus, I'm not exactly going to run out of CDs right away so don't worry about getting more should you turn out to be the world's greatest advocate or something. 2. Your postal address and daytime phone number (in case there are shipping problems). 3. Some description of the kinds of advocacy you're planning on. This will help me prevent overlap should someone else in your area be thinking of doing something similar with their own CDs. I will then send you the CDs, domestically or internationally, completely free of charge. We will pay all shipping charges, though if your customs office gets sticky about things on the far end then those problems will be for you to sort out and I probably won't be able to do much for you (we declare all such promotional items as being for promotion and having no commercial value, but some countries have been known to get sort of fussy about this - grr!). Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 09:01:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08192 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08141; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09610; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:56:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35B75D4F.A7E78418@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:57:03 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johann Visagie CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG on a (slightly :-) related subject from a mailing list I sometimes read: ========= 1. On 7 July ,the Malaysian Ministry for Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs will start action against 20 companies for unlicensed use of software. These major users include banks, insurance, finance and securities companies, architect and engineering firms. Company owners face jail and sentences up to 5 years and heavy fines if convicted of unauthorized use of software. Malaysia set 10 May as a deadline for legalizing all software use, after a one month awareness raising campaign. High profile action by the ministry's Enforcement Division aims to reassure IT companies of Malaysia's determination to act as a responsible mass-user of IT in all sectors. 2. In an associated move, the Ministry of Education has established a loan fund for teachers to purchase PCs. Besides its "smart schools" initiative (which applies to 90 trial schools),the Minister has stated that all Malaysian schools should draw up a strategic plan for the introduction of IT into school management and into the classroom. The Deputy Minister has recently encouraged companies to donate replaced equipment to educational institutions, since older generation equipment is still adequate for educational purposes. ========= might be a good place for some advocacy.. I was quite amused about the 'open source town meeting' messages - why are they donating to FSF, when FSF's web pages make such a point of distinguishing between open source and free software? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 10:33:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23818 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23798; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06188; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006121; Thu Jul 23 10:32:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25434; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) To: wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:32:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> from "Johann Visagie" at Jul 23, 98 04:43:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable > flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having > a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. I would actually be interested in reading this -- is it archived on the net somewhere (via hypermail or whatever)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 10:38:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (root@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24518 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02324; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:37:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:37:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Surplus 2.2.6 CDs available for promotional purposes. In-Reply-To: <19976.901207980@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: This is wonderful! I've been creating small snapshots of my own for a while when I've managed to get my hands on the CD writer from work, and usually pass the old ones off to interested friends. That small amount has never been enough to allow me to give a copy to plenty of other people whose ear I have bent. I can think of at least four different local computer resellers which have heard about it because of me, one public library, one High School library (), and quite a few friends that would love to have a copy. > 1. Number of CDs desired. 35 CD sets should be OK. I will try to talk a teacher into using FreeBSD in a computer class at our Vocational school (there's at least 5 CDs for the handson sessions), 6 will be given to the local computer resellers to try out, at least 7 to friends of mine. What is left over will be enough to keep the public and High School libraries happy (at least until surplus 2.2.7 CD's are available :). I'll probably start by giving the libraries 5 copies each and if they have a high demand for them (*cross fingers*) and all of the copies get checked out, they can ask for more. I'll even keep in touch with them (High School one is easy enough) and see how many times they get checked out. All in all, that should leave me with a few extra CD sets which I can surely find some way to put to good use. Feel free to ship more if you want (see below.. hint: tax deductions... ). Hmm.. think I could give some to my college bookstore? Could/should they sell them or would I tell them they had to give them away? > 2. Your postal address and daytime phone number (in case there are > shipping problems). Chris Dillon Reeds Spring School District Administration Bldg. Hwy. 13 South Reeds Spring, MO 65686 Work Phone: (417)272-8173 (ask for me) Home Phone: (417)739-1282 I know there is no actual address up there, but UPS, RPS, FedEx, USPS, etc. know exactly where we are. > > 3. Some description of the kinds of advocacy you're planning on. This > will help me prevent overlap should someone else in your area be > thinking of doing something similar with their own CDs. See (1). I will also create a flyer to go with it describing what FreeBSD is, why you should use it, how to get help installing and using it, and of course, to let everyone you know copy it. :-) > I will then send you the CDs, domestically or internationally, > completely free of charge. We will pay all shipping charges, though > if your customs office gets sticky about things on the far end then > those problems will be for you to sort out and I probably won't be > able to do much for you (we declare all such promotional items as > being for promotion and having no commercial value, but some countries > have been known to get sort of fussy about this - grr!). > > Thanks! Uuuh.. THANKS!! :-) (*warmfuzzies*) > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 14:41:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09240 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:41:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from buford.the-link.net (proxy.zebra.net [209.136.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09231 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Received: from shell.zebra.net (shell.zebra.net [209.12.240.129]) by buford.the-link.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19044 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:43:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (saten@localhost) by shell.zebra.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01557; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:36:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:36:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Brian Behlendorf cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... In-Reply-To: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm > > What happens when you install an NT network on a navy ship. > Everyone ready? Microsoft is about to take over the world using US Navy warships. Imagine what Bill Gates and Steve Ballor have in mind.. scary eh? -- Phillip Salzman eclipse@gulf.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 15:34:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17396 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17374; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04767; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable > > flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having > > a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. > > I would actually be interested in reading this -- is it archived on > the net somewhere (via hypermail or whatever)? I'd like to see it as well. I once wrote one of these, a comparison of the costs of installing my Security Toolkit/UNIX product vs. COPS for a largish network of UNIX servers and workstations. We came out on top, by far, but that was the whole point, wasn't it? It'd be interesting to hear what the Evil Empire has to say about cost of ownership of NT vs. FreeBSD/Linux/anything on the planet that doesn't crash daily. FreeBSD vs. NT anecdote: I was chatting with a friend at Intel here in town yesterday, and I asked him about the source code server I setup before I left. He said they've bought several more Perforce licenses since I left; they have some engineers from a site in California and one from Oregon using it over the intranet now. Other that installing the license file, they haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) This machine originally ran NT Workstation 4.0, but was crashing and eating its disk drive, physically ruining the disk, about every 5 weeks. Since I installed FreeBSD on a new IDE drive, it has been rock-solid stable. The machine also runs Apache 1.1(something) with a few local HTML pages for testing against, and ftpd. So yes, Intel Corp. is an official FreeBSD user too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 16:12:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23353 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23346; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06342; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:11:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807232311.RAA06342@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:11:46 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> References: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:53 PM 7/22/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as >opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing >terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project >encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the >FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to >out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. I think competition between commercial and open source versions of the same software is great. It keeps the commercial developers hopping when they might rest on their laurels; even if they're not "out-developed," they still need to stay a good deal ahead of the pack or add other value (as BSDI does). In return for their extra effort, they can earn a good living. At the same time, the open source version provides a route for widespread review of the source. So, let's encourage people to take our source and go private if they're willing to shoulder that burden. In the long run, all software will get better, and we'll have more options. That's what, I think, we really want. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 17:00:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29265 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29248 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA00887; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:30:22 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA03991; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:30:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980724093021.J716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:30:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brian Behlendorf , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... References: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org>; from Brian Behlendorf on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 02:19:29PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 22 July 1998 at 14:19:29 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm > > What happens when you install an NT network on a navy ship. Well, the report was pretty weak. As far as I can tell, the real problem was bad programming (somebody divided by 0 and was surprised at the result). So was the reporter, who didn't understand the problem (and made false claims that he could have checked up on). Not one against Microsoft this time. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 17:31:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03320 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA03315 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 22765 invoked by uid 24); 24 Jul 1998 00:30:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:04:14 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... In-Reply-To: <19980724093021.J716@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:30 AM 7/24/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 22 July 1998 at 14:19:29 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >> http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm >> >> What happens when you install an NT network on a navy ship. > >Well, the report was pretty weak. As far as I can tell, the real >problem was bad programming (somebody divided by 0 and was surprised >at the result). So was the reporter, who didn't understand the >problem (and made false claims that he could have checked up on). > >Not one against Microsoft this time. Of course it is. As the article said, a $2.95 calculator does not become inoperable when you attempt to divide a number by zero - yet a whole ship was more or less incapacitated (it had to be *towed* to port!) for days because of this. There shouldn't be *anything* that can be typed into the system that could have such an effect, intentional or not! Other than clicking on the "Shut down the ship" icon under the "Start" menu, I suppose. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 17:39:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04278 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04273; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17756; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd017685; Thu Jul 23 17:38:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA21575; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807240038.RAA21575@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:38:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, gsutter@pobox.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807232311.RAA06342@lariat.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Jul 23, 98 05:11:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as > >opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing > >terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project > >encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the > >FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to > >out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. > > I think competition between commercial and open source versions of the same > software is great. It keeps the commercial developers hopping when they might > rest on their laurels; even if they're not "out-developed," they still > need to stay a good deal ahead of the pack or add other value (as BSDI > does). In return for their extra effort, they can earn a good living. > > At the same time, the open source version provides a route for > widespread review of the source. So, let's encourage people to take our > source and go private if they're willing to shoulder that burden. In the > long run, all software will get better, and we'll have more options. > That's what, I think, we really want. While so far I think the XFree group is the front running candidate to whom I'd forward entry fees... What about Tim Wilkerson, who has just released KAFFE under GPL, and has actually implemented what appears to be the first freely available version of classes.zip -- shrugging off the not-inconsiderable Sun JVM licensing fees that companies must pay to use JVM? I'm sure Tim is about to need funding for legal help to prove the clean-room implemetnation. Sun is apparently going to audit him to make sure that it was a clean-room implementation. Another potential candidate is the Willows people, who have released their code under GPL. It provides a Windows-compatible compilation platform for use by appications vendors wanting to port Windows apps to non-Windows systems; in addition, it provides for an ABI emulation environment as part of the developement code (even though it specifically disclaims an intent at a WABI)... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 17:41:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04644 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04639 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA00991; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:10:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA05309; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:10:27 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980724101026.K716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:10:26 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brian Behlendorf , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... References: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980724093021.J716@freebie.lemis.com> <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org>; from Brian Behlendorf on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 05:04:14PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 23 July 1998 at 17:04:14 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > At 09:30 AM 7/24/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 22 July 1998 at 14:19:29 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >>> http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm >>> >>> What happens when you install an NT network on a navy ship. >> >> Well, the report was pretty weak. As far as I can tell, the real >> problem was bad programming (somebody divided by 0 and was surprised >> at the result). So was the reporter, who didn't understand the >> problem (and made false claims that he could have checked up on). >> >> Not one against Microsoft this time. > > Of course it is. As the article said, a $2.95 calculator does not become > inoperable when you attempt to divide a number by zero Well, it causes an error condition (and not, as the reporter claimed, a result of 0). > - yet a whole ship was more or less incapacitated (it had to be > *towed* to port!) Claims were made to that effect. I personally think that a problem of that magnitude would have become known earlier. > for days because of this. > > There shouldn't be *anything* that can be typed into the > system that could have such an effect, intentional or not! Sure, but is that an OS problem? GIGO: write bad software for FreeBSD and it'll run badly too. I think Microsoft's "operating systems" stink. But we've got to remember that applications aren't just operating systems, and this one just doesn't look like an OS problem. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 18:28:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10539 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10534 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03486; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:27:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd003463; Thu Jul 23 18:27:52 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23777; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:27:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807240127.SAA23777@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... To: brian@hyperreal.org (Brian Behlendorf) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:27:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org> from "Brian Behlendorf" at Jul 23, 98 05:04:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > There shouldn't be *anything* that can be typed into the system that > could have such an effect, intentional or not! Other than clicking > on the "Shut down the ship" icon under the "Start" menu, I suppose. Har. I crack myself up... ,-----------------------------------------------------------------. | Shut Down The Ship | ,-----------------------------------------------------------------. | | | (- | | ___| |______ Are you sure you want to: | | \ O O O O O/ | | \________/ (o) Shut down the ship? | | ( ) Rechristen the ship? | | ( ) Restart the ship in Merchant-Marine mode? | | ( ) Cease fire and log on as a invading navy? | | | | ,-----------. ,-----------. ,-----------. | | | Yes | | No | | Help | | | `-----------' `-----------' `-----------' | `-----------------------------------------------------------------' PS: Be sure to credit me. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 20:19:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27845 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27833 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (zanak-1-87.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.93.87]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA29933; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:18:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA02767; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:19:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980724031928.ZM2766@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:19:28 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Surplus 2.2.6 CDs available for promotional purposes." (Jul 23, 8:33am) References: <19976.901207980@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Surplus 2.2.6 CDs available for promotional purposes. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jul 23, 8:33am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote ---------------Major Snip--------------------------- > For extra brownie points, take some CDs to your local library (make > sure they handle things like CDs first though), computer shop, > computer swap meet, local ISP or (major brownie points!) high school > or college. > Jordan, There are five major universities and four two year technical colleges that have computer science departments in South Eastern Wisconsin. All are within a 75 mile radius of my office. I could very easily work in calls on the department heads into my normal business schedule. This would require about 50 2.2.6 CDs. If this meets your criterion for legitimate promotion, please email me regarding the particulars. Perhaps we could work something out on the shipping costs. Regards, Frank > If you've read all of the above and still think that you fit the bill, > then please send me the following information: > > 1. Number of CDs desired. This can be anything from 25 - 250, though if > you're interested in the larger quantities then you'd also be prepared to > justify your numbers. Most people are tempted to start too big and > then find themselves with surplus CDs so I prefer people who are just > starting out (or don't have some planned event with a definite head > count) to start small and, should they do better than expected, simply > ask me for more CDs. With this kind of surplus, I'm not exactly > going to run out of CDs right away so don't worry about getting > more should you turn out to be the world's greatest advocate or > something. > > 2. Your postal address and daytime phone number (in case there are > shipping problems). > > 3. Some description of the kinds of advocacy you're planning on. This > will help me prevent overlap should someone else in your area be > thinking of doing something similar with their own CDs. > > I will then send you the CDs, domestically or internationally, > completely free of charge. We will pay all shipping charges, though > if your customs office gets sticky about things on the far end then > those problems will be for you to sort out and I probably won't be > able to do much for you (we declare all such promotional items as > being for promotion and having no commercial value, but some countries > have been known to get sort of fussy about this - grr!). > > Thanks! > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 23 21:33:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10851 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10756 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:32:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05192; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:31:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B80E36.D5D5D549@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:31:50 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Brian Behlendorf , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... References: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980724093021.J716@freebie.lemis.com> <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980724101026.K716@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > > - yet a whole ship was more or less incapacitated (it had to be > > *towed* to port!) > > Claims were made to that effect. I personally think that a problem of > that magnitude would have become known earlier. Hah! Little do you know! I used to work as a test engineer and programmer for defense contractors. We had one night in a test lab when a fellow test engineer, Sue Duhring, was idly tapping the enter key on the keyboard for the U.S. Air Force Airborne Launch Control Center -- the "doomsday bird" that is the backup control center for the Intercontinental Ballistic Missile wings. The system crashed. She happened to hit on a rate that caused the system to read the keyboard buffer slowly due to a pathological problem, and the keyboard buffer overflowed and overwrote something *very* important. We caught this in testing by sheer luck. > > for days because of this. > > > > There shouldn't be *anything* that can be typed into the > > system that could have such an effect, intentional or not! > > Sure, but is that an OS problem? GIGO: write bad software for FreeBSD > and it'll run badly too. > > I think Microsoft's "operating systems" stink. But we've got to > remember that applications aren't just operating systems, and this one > just doesn't look like an OS problem. Exactly right: it looks like a combination "bonehead programmer" and "inadequate testing" problem, which cannot be attributed to Microsoft, but rather to the application developers. They need to change their GIGO to GIDO: Garbage In, Diagnostics Out (or to my favorite variant of this, GIAO: Garbage In, Abuse Out. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 00:43:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08073 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08067; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id JAA25426; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:42:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA08069 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 > running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted > since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) What, they rebooted the computer just for an IP change? The mind boggles. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 01:01:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11432 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark.lanminds.com [140.174.208.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11414 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from lanfill.lanminds.com (caulk-ppp7.lanminds.com [208.1.127.143]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA13155 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: `FreeBSD Linux' Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdb6d7$2fe67c20$01d0ae8c@lanfill.lanminds.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yahoo! News Technology Headlines Wednesday July 22 11:21 AM ET Linux gains ground -- but don't expect a quick install By Christopher Lindquist, ZDNet The noise around Linux has quieted in recent weeks, and that's probably a good thing for this operating system cum new-age religion -- because all the hype threatened to sink little Linux before it even started to really float. Ralph Nader is at least partially to blame. In his attacks on the Microsoft, he used Linux as an example of an alternative operating system that couldn't find a home on new PCs thanks to Microsoft's desktop stranglehold. Not long after, it seemed every computer magazine and newspaper on the stands had a Linux story to tell. Today's Linux, even the easy-install versions such as Red Hat, can be enough to make the average end user run back to the welcoming arms of Windows. While most Windows and Mac users are familiar with point-and-clicking their way around, many Linux operations still require some knowledge of Unix-like commands. Even Steven Miller, director of sales for Applix, Inc.'s ApplixWare office productivity suite (which comes in a Linux version), has a Linux story to tell. While he praises the operating system's reliability, he says the installation routines still need some tweaking. "We had a very competent engineer here install [Linux] on a laptop. It was an eight-hour chore. He had to go out and download some drivers to recognize the screen." Red Hat cited Bob Young, CEO at Red Hat, acknowledges that the operating system's ease of use can be further enhanced, but he points to recent improvements in Red Hat Linux 5.1 as proof of his company's commitment to the process. "Red Hat has made tremendous strides in terms of dealing with ease of use issues, and the openness of the Linux Development model allows us to make rapid advances in that direction. With the recent release of Red Hat Linux 5.1, we've worked to ease installation through automatic hardware probing, partitioning and configuring, and we've worked to ease system administration and networking through the sophisticated graphical LinuxConf." Things have also improved on the applications side. Both Applix and StarDivision ship complete office productivity suites for Linux that compete well with the likes of Microsoft Office for performing day-to-day business tasks. Netscape has long had Linux versions of its browsers that function similarly to the Windows and Mac versions, and Corel recently began selling a Linux version of WordPerfect. And this week, database kings Oracle Corp. and Informix Corp. are expected to announce support for Linux. For now, however, Linux is still more a hobby than a business tool for many users. Aficionados say it is stable (far more than Windows), powerful and intellectually stimulating. It can also be frustrating on a scale that makes the DOS command line look warm and fuzzy. Had all the Linux hype actually convinced too many typical computer users to give it a try, the reports of their experiences could have damaged the OS's future. Stealth action The worst part is that Linux wouldn't be to blame. Its long-time proponents have been willing to covertly move their prize product into business environments while the OS and applications matured. According to Dan Kusnetzky, program director for Operating Environments and Serverware at IDC Research, Linux server and desktop installations grew a respectable 20% between 1996 and 1997, even though some executives were unaware the software had infiltrated their organizations. A CIO at a large bank once told Kusnetzky that the company didn't use Linux. But lunch with lower-level IT people proved otherwise. According to them, the firm had some 100 Linux applications. Why the discrepancy? When the IT folks were told to build an intranet -- but provided no funding -- they used Linux to turn some old 386s and 486s into Web servers. It worked, and the CIO was none the wiser. That's fine for tech-savvy IT pros, but it's not the answer for most of the world's users. They need simplicity before they buy in, and most Linux software still isn't on par with good Windows apps when it comes to installation and operating ease. That should change as additional developers decide that the Linux market represents a chance to make money. But convincing them will require more Linux licenses, and that means even more IT departments surreptitiously making their companies dependent on the OS. If all goes well, it will happen, according to Kusnetzky. More work needed "Would an end user who is just focused on his or her business, like Linux? Not today," he says. "But there are a lot of people trying to make Linux more user friendly ... someone will do it." He's not the only one who thinks so. Just last week, Linux developers and advocates met to discuss their favorite operating system's future. Ralph Nader wasn't there, and USA Today didn't report what the attendees said. But that's OK for now: The Linux makers still have some work to do before their baby is ready to take on the world. Christopher Lindquist is a freelance writer and sometimes Linux user based in the Silicon Valley. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 05:01:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23888 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23880 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: (from jkh@localhost) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16935 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Message-Id: <199807241200.FAA16935@time.cdrom.com> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.opensource.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Unless you want "Open Source" to be equated with "Linux", you guys are going to have to send Eric material from our side of the fence for his web site. I'm not quite sure what he's looking for right now, but something on the topic of BSD and its long history, culimating in "Open Source" status when 4.4Lite was released after the final settlement of the lawsuit, would probably be exactly in the right vein. If that fails, ask him! :) I'd do this myself, but I'm just a bit burned out right now and this isn't a task which absolutely requires a jkh anyway. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 08:25:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25305 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.promo.de (mail.Promo.DE [194.45.188.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25276; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan@promo.de) Received: from d254.promo.de (d254.Promo.DE [194.45.188.254]) by mail.promo.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17309; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:21:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:23:41 +0200 From: Stefan Bethke To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CDs for promotion / NPR feature Message-ID: <713961.3110289821@d254.promo.de> In-Reply-To: <17611.901293107@time.cdrom.com> Originator-Info: login-token=Mulberry:017GVf&ABYAygAEAPcAFgDxAJA- X-Mailer: Mulberry Demo (MacOS) [1.4.0a7, s/n Evaluation] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No, sorry, I don't have any contacts; I just stumbled over the message. Also, I don't have time right now; but maybe someone else would like to try (I think there are a few e-mail adresses on the web pages). Cheers, Stefan On Fre, 24. Jul 1998 8:11 Uhr -0700 "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > Urk. Do you have any contact names? I don't have time right now to > track this down given that I'm busy as hell with some other things, > but if you have a name and phone number or even an email address, that > would help. Better yet, perhaps you could contact them yourself and > find out if they'd like to do this? :) > > - Jordan > >> I've just read on http://slashdot.org/ that NPR will air a one hour >> report "Beyond Windows" in their "Science Friday: Talk of the Nation" >> program (2pm EDT). They even mention "FreeBSD and Linux [...] are >> legendary for their reliability..." on the program's home page. >> >> It might be a bit late, but NPR might be willing to give out a number of >> CDs to listeners, or even start a little sweepstakes for them. >> >> http://www.npr.org/programs/scifri/ >> http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Jul/hour1_072498.html -- Stefan Bethke Promo Datentechnik | Tel. +49-40-851744-18 + Systemberatung GmbH | Fax. +49-40-851744-44 Eduardstrasse 46-48 | e-mail: stefan@Promo.DE D-20257 Hamburg | http://www.Promo.DE/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 17:01:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29937 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29916 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA51382; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:24 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA10457; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:57:31 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Comments on: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 In-Reply-To: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: *** snip *** >My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but >c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty >good in any part of this industry! :-) It is truly unnecessary (yet appreciated) for you or FreeBSD to apologize. FreeBSD has been and continues to be the best OS. Those who have followed for a while might snort their milk and cookies out of their nose when a glitch shows up. But they still know FreeBSD is good stuff. Those who have a knee-jerk response to a problem probably haven't been around long enough to see that problems do not persist. I must take issue with one thing. About "c'mon, this is free software" comment. I invite people to go to Greg Lehey's site and read my endorsement of FreeBSD. http://www.lemis.com/ref1.html I am light years more competent (and somehow still on the bottom of the learning curve :)) with FreeBSD/UNIX now than when I wrote that endorsement. In light of my increased experience, the view expressed therein has only become stronger. "What do I expect for free?" Not much. "What do I expect from FreeBSD?" The highest quality software. The highest integrity of the software and the developers. Development that is reponsive to the needs of the community at large. This is a lot to expect. I did not start using FreeBSD with these expectations. FreeBSD taught me to expect these things from the software and the community. FreeBSD made me question why expected so little from commercial software. To me "c'mon this is free software" implies that FreeBSD somehow starts out as inferior to competing commercial products. My point is this. Let no one (even jkh) hedge or temper their support of FreeBSD by saying "It's only free software." FreeBSD is the best software, _bar none_. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 18:09:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14015 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14003 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25759; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807250108.SAA25759@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Jack Velte" Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:08:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: On topic? (was Re: `FreeBSD Linux') Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:46:37 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: >Yahoo! News >Technology Headlines >Wednesday July 22 11:21 AM ET >Linux gains ground -- but don't expect a quick install I am a bit confused. What does that post about Linux has to do with FreeBSD or it's advocacy? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 19:10:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22024 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:10:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22007 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01380; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:52 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Today, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" discussed alternative operating systems (see http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/980724.totn.html for an overview and a RealAudio archive). But while they discussed Linux and BeOS, FreeBSD wasn't mentioned as an option. James Love (assistant to Ralph Nader) and Nick Petreley (InfoWorld columnist) know darn well that FreeBSD exists, but talked exclusively about Linux.... Listeners most likely got the impression that Linux was THE only freely distributed OS. This sucks rocks. What's the best way to get such people to acknowledge FreeBSD's existence? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 19:42:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25066 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from callisto.tus.netdot.net (callisto.tus.netdot.net [169.197.56.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25047 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:42:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chaley@netdot.net) Received: from localhost (chaley@localhost) by callisto.tus.netdot.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26109; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:41:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chaley@netdot.net) X-Authentication-Warning: callisto.tus.netdot.net: chaley owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:41:39 -0700 (MST) From: chaley X-Sender: chaley@callisto.tus.netdot.net To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show In-Reply-To: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > Today, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" discussed alternative operating systems > (see http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/980724.totn.html for an > overview and a RealAudio archive). But while they discussed Linux and BeOS, > FreeBSD wasn't mentioned as an option. James Love (assistant to Ralph > Nader) and Nick Petreley (InfoWorld columnist) know darn well that FreeBSD > exists, but talked exclusively about Linux.... Listeners most likely got > the impression that Linux was THE only freely distributed OS. > > This sucks rocks. What's the best way to get such people to acknowledge > FreeBSD's existence? I think FreeBSD's time will come. It is ultra-important that we support shows like this that attempt to spread the idea that there are options in the world of OSs. The FreeBSD community benefits from the growth of the Linux community because: * Linux software runs on FreeBSD. * A large number of faithful FreeBSD users are Linux converts. Although I would personally recommend FreeBSD over Linux to a friend, I do not believe we will gain any ground by worrying about Linux... -- chaley To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 19:45:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25277 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25269 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA07654; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:25 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA18051; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:24 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980725121424.J716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ References: <199807241200.FAA16935@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807241200.FAA16935@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 05:00:48AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 24 July 1998 at 5:00:48 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Unless you want "Open Source" to be equated with "Linux", you guys > are going to have to send Eric material from our side of the fence > for his web site. I'm not quite sure what he's looking for right now, > but something on the topic of BSD and its long history, culimating in > "Open Source" status when 4.4Lite was released after the final settlement > of the lawsuit, would probably be exactly in the right vein. If that fails, > ask him! :) I don't see anything here suggesting that Eric's looking for this kind of material. Have I missed something? I'd certainly be prepared to write up a document. But I don't see any corresponding document about Linux, for example. On the other hand, I like the site. They've got a lot of interesting stuff there, stuff that makes Really Good Arguments for free software. It's abundantly clear that FreBSD needs to participate in this effort. Despite all that's been said, I don't see Eric as being Linux-centric to the extent of partisanship, and ignoring things because you don't like the people tends to be counterproductive. > I'd do this myself, but I'm just a bit burned out right now > and this isn't a task which absolutely requires a jkh anyway. :) Oh? Were you busy? :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 19:50:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25763 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25756 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-158.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.32]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA09349; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:50:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA00782; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:50:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980725025006.ZM781@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:50:06 +0000 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass "FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show" (Jul 24, 8:09pm) References: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jul 24, 8:09pm, Brett Glass wrote: > Subject: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show > Today, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" discussed alternative operating systems > (see http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/980724.totn.html for an > overview and a RealAudio archive). But while they discussed Linux and BeOS, > FreeBSD wasn't mentioned as an option. James Love (assistant to Ralph > Nader) and Nick Petreley (InfoWorld columnist) know darn well that FreeBSD > exists, but talked exclusively about Linux.... Listeners most likely got > the impression that Linux was THE only freely distributed OS. > > This sucks rocks. What's the best way to get such people to acknowledge > FreeBSD's existence? > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Brett Glass Brett, Have a look at http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Jul/hour1_072498.html where FreeBSD is mentioned along with Linux. Same cast of characters as on the program that you note above. Go figure. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 19:52:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25927 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25922 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01985; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:51:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807250251.UAA01985@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:51:34 -0600 To: "Frank Pawlak" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show In-Reply-To: <980725025006.ZM781@darkstar.connect.com> References: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:50 AM 7/25/98 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Brett, > >Have a look at http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Jul/hour1_072498.html >where FreeBSD is mentioned along with Linux. Same cast of characters as on the >program that you note above. Go figure. > >Frank Yep -- mentioned in the fine print on the Web, but not on the show. Aargh. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 20:39:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29143 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29138 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id UAA25319; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show In-Reply-To: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well.. this is because we are not an alternative OS. We are THE OS. :) While you were getting cleaned up from your break in, we quickly took over the MS and replaced all the NT systems with FreeBSD (and Win95 with Linux -- they are not that evil). So, now everyone is against FreeBSD because we are the only dominant OS on the market. Ohh shit.. this is 10 years from now and I promised my psychic I wouldn't tell. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Observation #1: The more security consultants get paid, the longer their sentences are On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >Today, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" discussed alternative operating systems >(see http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/980724.totn.html for an >overview and a RealAudio archive). But while they discussed Linux and BeOS, >FreeBSD wasn't mentioned as an option. James Love (assistant to Ralph >Nader) and Nick Petreley (InfoWorld columnist) know darn well that FreeBSD >exists, but talked exclusively about Linux.... Listeners most likely got >the impression that Linux was THE only freely distributed OS. > >This sucks rocks. What's the best way to get such people to acknowledge >FreeBSD's existence? > >--Brett Glass > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 21:41:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05438 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05433 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-14.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.63]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23712 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:40:44 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980724214816.0069a7f8@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:48:16 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Hardware and Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all! Well, in the newbies list there was a thread covering what people do with their FreeBSD systems and on what kind of hardware that their currently using with FreeBSD. Actually, that thread was going on awhile back but recently it occured to me that we should all submit what kind of hardware we use with FreeBSD. I mean, we should have a user data base listing the manufacturers and stuff of the Hardware that we (as users) have found to work well with FreeBSD. So say I have a Toshiba CDrom model number xxyzx that I find to work well with FreeBSD, then I would submit that to the "Compatible CDrom Data Base". Of course that can work for motherboards, mice, scanners, add-in cards, video cards, printers, USB, or whatever might work with FreeBSD. I believe that this "database" would be a nice replacement, or enhancement, for the current Hardware.txt for the FreeBSD releases. If I was someone thinking of installing FreeBSD and I find that other users have the same hardware that I do that have reported to work with FreeBSD, then t would make my descion to run FreeBSD alot easier. Or, if I was someone that already runs FreeBSD but decides that I wanted to upgrade my hardware, I would easily turn to the Hardware database to see if anyone has good reports on the Hardware I might want to upgrade to. Ya know what I mean? How does this idea sound? I just wanted to through the idea out there and stuff. Take care guys, Joey PS: Another neat idea is to list what people use their FreeBSD machines for, such as servers, or workstations, or a mega-machine designed to come up with plans to takeover the world. "Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?" ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 22:01:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07470 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07462 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-59.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.59]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id AAA17811; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id AAA01088; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:00:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980725050054.ZM1087@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:00:54 +0000 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass "Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show" (Jul 24, 8:51pm) References: <199807250209.UAA01380@lariat.lariat.org> <199807250251.UAA01985@lariat.lariat.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Brett Glass , "Frank Pawlak" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jul 24, 8:51pm, Brett Glass wrote: > Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show > At 02:50 AM 7/25/98 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >Brett, > > > >Have a look at http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Jul/hour1_072498.html > >where FreeBSD is mentioned along with Linux. Same cast of characters as > on the > >program that you note above. Go figure. > > > >Frank > > > Yep -- mentioned in the fine print on the Web, but not on the show. Aargh. > > --Brett > >-- End of excerpt from Brett Glass Brett, We may still get some mileage out of this. There is an email address on the bottom of the web article to state your case for your OS of choice. This maybe the appropriate place to voice your vote for FreeBSD and to mildly protest the fact that FreeBSD was mentioned on the web page but not on the show. Also NPR often reads on the air letters received from listeners regarding topics of previously programs. They are probably the least biased in their reporting of any of the popular media, thus we may get a mention or at least a sympathetic ear. IMHO, a complementary email on their doing a program on open source operating systems containing a mild protest of FreeBSD not getting any show time may get a response. I am going to do that very thing in fact. I know that the majority of the FreeBSD comunity favors the idea of letting Linux lead the way, and they may well be right. But being an old athlete there were times when I pulled for another team to knock off a mojor competitor. However when I lined-up against any of them, there was no doubt in my mind that all of the teams were competitors regardless of what they did that helped my team's cause. Relying on other teams to carry you to a championship is like kissing your sister. It just doesn't get you to the big show. I know that I'll draw heavy fire over this, but I feel that same way about competitors in the OS game. Somehow we must win some turf battles and grab some major headlines. Linux will bury us just a well as M$ will. End of the political stuff. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 22:13:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08699 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08688 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id WAA09155; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:13:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980724214816.0069a7f8@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Develop, implement and start the database. We will populate it. :) Put a www interface to it.. it would be really cool if you can get one of the coming out Linux port of Informix/Oracle to work too. You don't need anyone's permission to do this. FreeBSD is just as your OS as it is mine. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Observation #1: The more security consultants get paid, the longer their sentences are On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > >Hey all! > >Well, in the newbies list there was a thread covering what people do with >their FreeBSD systems and on what kind of hardware that their currently >using with FreeBSD. Actually, that thread was going on awhile back but >recently it occured to me that we should all submit what kind of hardware >we use with FreeBSD. > >I mean, we should have a user data base listing the manufacturers and stuff >of the Hardware that we (as users) have found to work well with FreeBSD. >So say I have a Toshiba CDrom model number xxyzx that I find to work well >with FreeBSD, then I would submit that to the "Compatible CDrom Data Base". > Of course that can work for motherboards, mice, scanners, add-in cards, >video cards, printers, USB, or whatever might work with FreeBSD. > >I believe that this "database" would be a nice replacement, or enhancement, >for the current Hardware.txt for the FreeBSD releases. If I was someone >thinking of installing FreeBSD and I find that other users have the same >hardware that I do that have reported to work with FreeBSD, then t would >make my descion to run FreeBSD alot easier. Or, if I was someone that >already runs FreeBSD but decides that I wanted to upgrade my hardware, I >would easily turn to the Hardware database to see if anyone has good >reports on the Hardware I might want to upgrade to. > >Ya know what I mean? How does this idea sound? I just wanted to through >the idea out there and stuff. > >Take care guys, > >Joey > >PS: Another neat idea is to list what people use their FreeBSD machines >for, such as servers, or workstations, or a mega-machine designed to come >up with plans to takeover the world. "Are you thinking what I'm thinking, >Pinky?" ;) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 23:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13805 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13792 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:02:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id BAA08692; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:00:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Frank Pawlak cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show In-Reply-To: <980725050054.ZM1087@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > kissing your sister. It just doesn't get you to the big show. I know that > I'll draw heavy fire over this, but I feel that same way about competitors in > the OS game. Somehow we must win some turf battles and grab some major > headlines. Linux will bury us just a well as M$ will. It's easy to get caught up in this, but I would just like to remind people, that *I* think were wasting time and effort competing with Linux as a desktop OS. I've been guilty in the past of trying to advocate that. But then I woke up to the reality that FreeBSD *IS* powering the internet. FreeBSD is not a lincoln log OS that has to be peiced together to work HARD. FreeBSD is a SERVER OS. One benefit of being such a NUCLEAR POWERED server OS is that it makes a nice desktop since its stable as, well stable as FreeBSD. People do not seem to get the idea of where FreeBSD is being used. It's in NOC's, embedded solutions, search engines, video solutions like at pluto, gigabit test beds like the myrianet project, link exchange, telephone companies, large ISP's like BEST, routing software like JunOS, etc.. etc.. I dont want resources wasted on making FreeBSD look sexier, what *I* would rather see is energy spent on cleaning up and adding MORE robustness and features to our networking stack, then VM, then SMP. If your good at something stick with it and improve upon it dont divide and conquer. Stick with being a server oriented OS which we are, we blow the doors off everyone in that area on x86, and on other platforms as well. I think -core does a good job of keeping FreeBSD geared towards a server oriented OS. YEAH! I'm not trying to persuading you not to take up making FreeBSD look more sexy on the desktop, merely trying to get people to FOCUS on what our best chances of survival and ultimate goals should be. Our resources are limited, but we have the best talent on earth working on FreeBSD. And to quote mike o'dell at UUNET from an old ;login interview when asked (I believe) what flavor of UNIX will come out on top in the long run, he replied "I believe a BSD based solution will". So lets prove him right. Because the first time *I* boot a FreeBSD install medium that has buttons to click im throwing it out the window :-) Just my 9 cents worth, Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 24 23:49:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18081 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18075 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22005; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:24 +0930." <19980725121424.J716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:48:17 -0700 Message-ID: <22001.901349297@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't see anything here suggesting that Eric's looking for this > kind of material. Have I missed something? I'd certainly be prepared > to write up a document. But I don't see any corresponding document > about Linux, for example. I've talked to him in person and that's what he said to me. I sort of gritched that for an "Open Source" site it looked a lot more to me like "Linux == Open Source" site, and he said that's only because no FreeBSD folks had bothered to contact him about providing a more balanced viewpoint. So contact him! ;-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 00:07:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19171 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19163 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-59.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.59]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id CAA19161; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:07:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id CAA01349; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:07:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980725070714.ZM1348@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:07:14 +0000 In-Reply-To: Open Systems Networking "Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show" (Jul 25, 2:00am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Open Systems Networking Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Open Systems Networking "Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show" (Jul 25, 2:00am) X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) On Jul 25, 2:00am, Open Systems Networking wrote: > Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show > On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > kissing your sister. It just doesn't get you to the big show. I know that > > I'll draw heavy fire over this, but I feel that same way about competitors in > > the OS game. Somehow we must win some turf battles and grab some major > > headlines. Linux will bury us just a well as M$ will. > > It's easy to get caught up in this, but I would just like to remind > people, that *I* think were wasting time and effort competing with Linux > as a desktop OS. I've been guilty in the past of trying to advocate that. > But then I woke up to the reality that FreeBSD *IS* powering the internet. > FreeBSD is not a lincoln log OS that has to be peiced together to work > HARD. FreeBSD is a SERVER OS. One benefit of being such a NUCLEAR POWERED > server OS is that it makes a nice desktop since its stable as, well stable > as FreeBSD. People do not seem to get the idea of where FreeBSD is being > used. It's in NOC's, embedded solutions, search engines, video solutions > like at pluto, gigabit test beds like the myrianet project, link exchange, > telephone companies, large ISP's like BEST, routing software like > JunOS, etc.. etc.. > I dont want resources wasted on making FreeBSD look sexier, what *I* would > rather see is energy spent on cleaning up and adding MORE robustness and > features to our networking stack, then VM, then SMP. If your good at > something stick with it and improve upon it dont divide and conquer. > Stick with being a server oriented OS which we are, we blow the doors off > everyone in that area on x86, and on other platforms as well. I think > -core does a good job of keeping FreeBSD geared towards a server oriented > OS. YEAH! I'm not trying to persuading you not to take up making FreeBSD > look more sexy on the desktop, merely trying to get people to FOCUS on > what our best chances of survival and ultimate goals should be. Our > resources are limited, but we have the best talent on earth working on > FreeBSD. And to quote mike o'dell at UUNET from an old ;login interview > when asked (I believe) what flavor of UNIX will come out on top in the > long run, he replied "I believe a BSD based solution will". So lets prove > him right. > Because the first time *I* boot a FreeBSD install medium that has buttons > to click im throwing it out the window :-) > > Just my 9 cents worth, > > Chris > I have no quarrel with what you are saying. In fact your are correct in every respect regarding FreeBSD being a superior server platform. We are on the some page so far. However, you better get the word out to Informix and Oracle. They apparently don't see FreeBSD in the same light as you do. With all the power that FreeBSD can offer as a server platform, the is no reason in hell why Imformix and Oracle should not develop native binaries for FreeBSD. Competing with Linux on the desktop are words that you put in my mouth. Thank you, but I'd rather that you would refrain from doing that. What I'm talking about above is competing at the server level, and somehow we are getting lost and not recognized by the big names in the database industry. IMO, this is because there is a lot of mouth power in the Linux community extolling the user base size. Again given that FreeBSD is used in all the areas that you state, we are not getting the headlines that draw the major players to port natives apps to FreeBSD. IMHO, that is a major problem. As to easy to use installation and management tools, it is your privlege to throw out the window any OS that has such tools. However, sys and db admins that have to manage 250 plus node networks dispersed over the globe will gladly pick-up what you toss out. BTW, one of the places that NT is gaining market share is in the low end UNIX workstation market. With the price performance ratio that FreeBSD has over NT and Linux, there is no reason why we shouldn't own that market. Those users that have used UNIX workstation are all used to using X Windows. We already have X Windows, and a little more sex in the looks department can't hurt. You don't like sexy looks, don't install it. It's just that easy to have an OS that you and I can both like and use to our complete satisfaction. Anything that attracts a larger user base is not a waisted resource. >From you sig., I gather that we are in similar business. If that's true, then you know as well as I that to win the contract means getting in someone's face with a superior game plan. And that is where we are missing the mark with FreeBSD. Frank > -- > "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." > > ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 > -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te > gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC > foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z > d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb > NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv > CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 > b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= > =BBjp > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- >-- End of excerpt from Open Systems Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 01:10:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22954 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22829 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA08295; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:39:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA03041; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:39:31 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980725173930.Q716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:39:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " , Joey Garcia Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff References: <3.0.1.32.19980724214816.0069a7f8@pacificnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 10:13:29PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 24 July 1998 at 22:13:29 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: >> Hey all! >> >> Well, in the newbies list there was a thread covering what people do with >> their FreeBSD systems and on what kind of hardware that their currently >> using with FreeBSD. Actually, that thread was going on awhile back but >> recently it occured to me that we should all submit what kind of hardware >> we use with FreeBSD. >> >> I mean, we should have a user data base listing the manufacturers and stuff >> of the Hardware that we (as users) have found to work well with FreeBSD. >> So say I have a Toshiba CDrom model number xxyzx that I find to work well >> with FreeBSD, then I would submit that to the "Compatible CDrom Data Base". >> Of course that can work for motherboards, mice, scanners, add-in cards, >> video cards, printers, USB, or whatever might work with FreeBSD. >> >> I believe that this "database" would be a nice replacement, or enhancement, >> for the current Hardware.txt for the FreeBSD releases. If I was someone >> thinking of installing FreeBSD and I find that other users have the same >> hardware that I do that have reported to work with FreeBSD, then t would >> make my descion to run FreeBSD alot easier. Or, if I was someone that >> already runs FreeBSD but decides that I wanted to upgrade my hardware, I >> would easily turn to the Hardware database to see if anyone has good >> reports on the Hardware I might want to upgrade to. >> >> Ya know what I mean? How does this idea sound? I just wanted to through >> the idea out there and stuff. >> >> PS: Another neat idea is to list what people use their FreeBSD machines >> for, such as servers, or workstations, or a mega-machine designed to come >> up with plans to takeover the world. "Are you thinking what I'm thinking, >> Pinky?" ;) > > Develop, implement and start the database. We will populate it. :) > Put a www interface to it.. it would be really cool if you can get > one of the coming out Linux port of Informix/Oracle to work too. > You don't need anyone's permission to do this. FreeBSD is just as > your OS as it is mine. I tried this a while back, and it didn't work. I got almost no response at all. Things have changed since then, and with any luck you'll be more successful than I was. I think you need at least four categories: 1. Things known to work well with FreeBSD. 2. Things known not to work at all with FreeBSD. 3. Things known to work with FreeBSD, with no special recommendation. 4. Things supposed to work with FreeBSD, but with no positive reports. You could add a whole lot more if you wanted ("known to work in Linux mode in the first quarter of the moon"). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 06:39:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19546 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19541 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22816; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:38:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022803; Sat Jul 25 06:38:43 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA21029; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:38:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807251338.GAA21029@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff To: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:38:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bear@pacificnet.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jan B. Koum" at Jul 24, 98 10:13:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Develop, implement and start the database. We will populate it. :) > Put a www interface to it.. it would be really cool if you can get > one of the coming out Linux port of Informix/Oracle to work too. > You don't need anyone's permission to do this. FreeBSD is just as > your OS as it is mine. Oracle runs on FreeBSD, and ran on FreeBSD before they thought of a Linux port. NCI, the company John Dyson works for, is a subsidiary of Oracle (Network Computers Inc. is a Larry Ellison company). The NCI server (currently) runs FreeBSD, and runs a copy of Oracle to back up some of the network computing initiative. I have it on good authority that Yahoo runs this port of Oracle, as well. It would be worthwhile to convince Oracle to sell the port commercially, especially given their announcement of a Linux port being started. This is one area where FreeBSD can beat Linux to the gun... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 06:51:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20331 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:51:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.rci.net (mail.rci.net [209.40.33.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20318 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Received: from rci.net (home.rci.net [209.40.32.98] (may be forged)) by mail.rci.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12549; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:48:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Message-ID: <35B9E159.CA7D6416@rci.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:44:57 -0400 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff References: <3.0.1.32.19980724214816.0069a7f8@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > > Hey all! > > Well, in the newbies list there was a thread covering what people do with > their FreeBSD systems and on what kind of hardware that their currently > using with FreeBSD. Actually, that thread was going on awhile back but > recently it occured to me that we should all submit what kind of hardware > we use with FreeBSD. > > I mean, we should have a user data base listing the manufacturers and stuff > of the Hardware that we (as users) have found to work well with FreeBSD. > So say I have a Toshiba CDrom model number xxyzx that I find to work well > with FreeBSD, then I would submit that to the "Compatible CDrom Data Base". > Of course that can work for motherboards, mice, scanners, add-in cards, > video cards, printers, USB, or whatever might work with FreeBSD. > > I believe that this "database" would be a nice replacement, or enhancement, > for the current Hardware.txt for the FreeBSD releases. If I was someone > thinking of installing FreeBSD and I find that other users have the same > hardware that I do that have reported to work with FreeBSD, then t would > make my descion to run FreeBSD alot easier. Or, if I was someone that > already runs FreeBSD but decides that I wanted to upgrade my hardware, I > would easily turn to the Hardware database to see if anyone has good > reports on the Hardware I might want to upgrade to. > > Ya know what I mean? How does this idea sound? I just wanted to through > the idea out there and stuff. This is a great idea! It would be really handy for both users and OEMs to be able to jump to the website, fill in some drop-downs on a web form, and find out whether the products they have, or are about to get, are going to work with their operating system. It would also be useful if it was tied to some "this is what I had to do to make that work" info... Sort of a self-growing hardware how-to for FreeBSD. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 08:08:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27464 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27459 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06770; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807251508.IAA06770@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:48:17 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I don't see anything here suggesting that Eric's looking for this >> kind of material. > >I've talked to him in person and that's what he said to me. I sort of >gritched that for an "Open Source" site it looked a lot more to me >like "Linux == Open Source" site, and he said that's only because no >FreeBSD folks had bothered to contact him about providing a more >balanced viewpoint. So contact him! ;-) Greg, I started to look at the site too and it seemed interesting. I will go back and look at it more in details today. I was planning to write to Eric today. I want to make sure we don't bombard him with emails. I think we should organize the contact effort through the list so anyone who wants to comment on the material being sent can make "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments. Would you like to write the initial letter or if you don't have time let me know and I will write it. >From what Jordan wrote it seems the initial contact letter would be an inquire in which areas of the site we can give him a "more balanced viewpoint". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 10:34:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10602 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10596 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14645; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807251734.KAA14645@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD Mall? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While looking at the opensource pages (www.opensource.org) to see where we can give some input about FreeBSD I noticed on their list of "products" the mention of a Linux Mall >clearinghouse where Linux users and commercial software developers can find each other. Could we do something like this? I have always wanted to see adds in the FreeBSD pages BECAUSE this will show newcomers there ARE companies creating software and maintaining FreeBSD based solutions. The gallery is vendor's section is good, but many may never wonder into it to see the list. For those who oppose ads then how about creating a Ring? I like the ads better even a ring will be better than nothing. Advantage of having adds: -We could allow companies like Yahoo put Free ads since they are a great showcase of FreeBSD. I would love to see a banner like "FreeBSD at it's best. Serving the world at Yahoo" -It would be an incentive for companies which support FreeBSD to continue doing so since it will generate income for them. Any commercial hardware vendor which supports FreeBSD will eventually stop if there is no "perceived" revenue produced from them spending money on drivers for FreeBSD. -The ads will prompt many people who may currently be supporting FreeBSD products and services for free to put adds and see the FreeBSD user base as a potential source of income. This can be very good since they will be able to continue enhancing their product/services. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 11:03:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12823 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12818 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23714; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:34:02 EDT." <199807251734.KAA14645@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:02:34 -0700 Message-ID: <23702.901389754@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could we do something like this? I have always wanted to see adds in > the FreeBSD pages BECAUSE this will show newcomers there ARE > companies creating software and maintaining FreeBSD based solutions. http://www.freebsdmall.com/ is intended to serve that exact purpose, though since we don't have the pages ready for it yet (webmaster is in Brazil and this is on his TODO list) it's currently just pointing at www.cdrom.com. More announcements will follow when there's something to report. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 11:04:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12985 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12979 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16207; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807251804.LAA16207@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:03:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some time ago JKH "virtually" said... >> Unless you want "Open Source" to be equated with "Linux", you guys >> are going to have to send Eric material from our side of the fence >> for his web site. I did a took a more detailed look at the opensource (www.opensource.com) pages and I totally agree with Jordan. Even though I don't think Eric is intentionally ignoring other Free Unix besides Linux, but the pages do give the impression he is not familiar with the other free Unix which may have lead him to just use Linux as a reference. I sent him a few comments. For instance on one page he has a note on how to get a "Free Unix", but only mentions Linux. I suggested he placed the URLs for Freebsd, Linux, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in alphabetical order). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 13:35:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24948 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24941 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost by junior.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA14448; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:34:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Francisco Reyes cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? In-Reply-To: <199807251734.KAA14645@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Francisco Reyes wrote: > While looking at the opensource pages (www.opensource.org) to see > where we can give some input about FreeBSD I noticed on their list of > "products" the mention of a Linux Mall If this is www.linuxmall.com, then you might want to take a look and see what it actually is... -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 14:02:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27942 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27935 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id OAA12560; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:02:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Terry Lambert cc: bear@pacificnet.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff In-Reply-To: <199807251338.GAA21029@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If John Dyson has a contact of a suit we can all call or eMail and beg for an oracle port to go commercial, it would be great. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Observation #1: The more security consultants get paid, the longer their sentences are On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Develop, implement and start the database. We will populate it. :) >> Put a www interface to it.. it would be really cool if you can get >> one of the coming out Linux port of Informix/Oracle to work too. >> You don't need anyone's permission to do this. FreeBSD is just as >> your OS as it is mine. > >Oracle runs on FreeBSD, and ran on FreeBSD before they thought of a >Linux port. > >NCI, the company John Dyson works for, is a subsidiary of Oracle >(Network Computers Inc. is a Larry Ellison company). > >The NCI server (currently) runs FreeBSD, and runs a copy of Oracle >to back up some of the network computing initiative. > >I have it on good authority that Yahoo runs this port of Oracle, as well. > >It would be worthwhile to convince Oracle to sell the port commercially, >especially given their announcement of a Linux port being started. This >is one area where FreeBSD can beat Linux to the gun... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 14:17:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29823 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29793 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA10633; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:17:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > If John Dyson has a contact of a suit we can all call or eMail and > beg for an oracle port to go commercial, it would be great. Didnt someone else besides john post about an unsupported version of oracle awhile back? Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 15:04:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06094 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06089 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28942; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807252203.PAA28942@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Stuart Krivis" Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:34:27 -0400 (EDT), Stuart Krivis wrote: > >If this is www.linuxmall.com, then you might want to take a look and see >what it actually is... Yes that was the URL. I saw it. I hope we can do better. :-) I think if we took the Commercial vendor's page and made it prettier and placed a banner or two from vendors that this may be a simple start. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 16:33:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15006 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14998 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost by junior.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA02114; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:33:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Francisco Reyes cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? In-Reply-To: <199807252203.PAA28942@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:34:27 -0400 (EDT), Stuart Krivis wrote: > > > > >If this is www.linuxmall.com, then you might want to take a look and see > >what it actually is... > > Yes that was the URL. I saw it. I hope we can do better. :-) > I think if we took the Commercial vendor's page and made it prettier > and placed a banner or two from vendors that this may be a simple > start. What concerns me is that Linuxmall is a commercial site - a vendor of software. Would people assume that a freebsdmall site is also commercial? Linuxmall has a tarnished reputation for their practice of spamming the newsgroups with "public service announcements." (Announcements of their latest products and how much better they will make your life.) How about BSDheaven.org? That might be a good name for a place that has info about the three free BSD OSes gathered in one place. TheWholeBSD.org CompleteBSD.org BSDworld.org BSD-World.org -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 19:18:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27831 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27805 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA10238; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:47:51 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA05451; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:47:50 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980726114749.B716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:47:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ References: <199807251508.IAA06770@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807251508.IAA06770@newsguy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 11:07:45AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 25 July 1998 at 11:07:45 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:48:17 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >>> I don't see anything here suggesting that Eric's looking for this >>> kind of material. >> >> I've talked to him in person and that's what he said to me. I sort of >> gritched that for an "Open Source" site it looked a lot more to me >> like "Linux == Open Source" site, and he said that's only because no >> FreeBSD folks had bothered to contact him about providing a more >> balanced viewpoint. So contact him! ;-) > > Greg, > > I started to look at the site too and it seemed interesting. I will > go back and look at it more in details today. > > I was planning to write to Eric today. I want to make sure we don't > bombard him with emails. I think we should organize the contact > effort through the list so anyone who wants to comment on the > material being sent can make "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments. > > Would you like to write the initial letter or if you don't have time > let me know and I will write it. OK, I'll do it. Give me an hour or two. > From what Jordan wrote it seems the initial contact letter would be > an inquire in which areas of the site we can give him a "more > balanced viewpoint". Quite honestly, I don't see that the web page is that unbalanced. It does mention Linux much more than FreeBSD, but there's a lot more Linux out there, so that doesn't make it unbalanced. I think probably the best thing we can suggest is a page on "Free UNIX: your choice", with a summary (2 paragraphs or so) on each flavour, and with plenty of links to follow up to. Comments? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 19:29:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28892 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA28887 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from info@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 5328 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Jul 1998 01:25:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:25:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa Info To: Francisco Reyes cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Atipa Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Atipa (Fwd: Re: Hardware and Stuff - from Advocacy list) In-Reply-To: <199807251523.IAA07580@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Francisco, I'll set it up! I'll put it on the www.unixource.com webpage. I can work on it this weekend. It will fit in nicely with what I am doing right now in fact! Look back on Sunday night... Thanks for the tip; I am sure we can help out. Regards, Kevin On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Recently there was an email sent to the FreeBSD advocacy list > regarding making a list of compatible hardware for FreeBSD. I > inmidiately thought of you (Atipa) since you already have a system > which may be adapted to maintain such list. [ ... ] > > If interested let me know of write to the freebsd-advocacy list and > say that you are willing to host and help with the setup of the > hardware list. > > ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== > >Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:13:29 -0700 (PDT) > >From: "Jan B. Koum " > >To: Joey Garcia > >cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: Hardware and Stuff > >Develop, implement and start the database. We will populate it. :) > >Put a www interface to it.. it would be really cool if you can get > >one of the coming out Linux port of Informix/Oracle to work too. > >You don't need anyone's permission to do this. FreeBSD is just as > >your OS as it is mine. > >Jan Koum jkb@best.com > > >>On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > >>Hey all! > >>Well, in the newbies list there was a thread covering what people do with > >>their FreeBSD systems and on what kind of hardware that their currently > >>using with FreeBSD. Actually, that thread was going on awhile back but > >>recently it occured to me that we should all submit what kind of hardware > >>we use with FreeBSD. > ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 20:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03720 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03714 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:12:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15151; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807260311.UAA15151@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Stuart Krivis" Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:11:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:33:10 -0400 (EDT), Stuart Krivis wrote: >Would people assume that a freebsdmall site is also commercial? > >Linuxmall has a tarnished reputation for their practice of spamming the >newsgroups with "public service announcements." What I would like to see is a site where vendors can place adds. Not a single vendor, but ALL and ANY vendor that supports FreeBSD. And I do hope we DOT NOT spam. We could also have some free or discounted slots for companies that are a good showcase for FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 20:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04750 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04721 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15678; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807260321.UAA15678@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:47:49 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Quite honestly, I don't see that the web page is that unbalanced. It >does mention Linux much more than FreeBSD, but there's a lot more >Linux out there, so that doesn't make it unbalanced. Since that first mail I looked at the site much more in detail. I also got the same feeling as Jordan that it is unbalanced and not because there is more Linux out there. I don't think he is purposedly doing it, just that he is not familiar with the BSDs. >I think probably the best thing we can suggest is a page on "Free >UNIX: your choice", with a summary (2 paragraphs or so) on each >flavour, and with plenty of links to follow up to. Comments? That would be a good start. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 25 23:47:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18350 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18345 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id XAA03543 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980725235125.A2551@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:51:25 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? References: <199807252203.PAA28942@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Stuart Krivis on Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 07:33:10PM -0400 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 07:33:10PM -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote: > > What concerns me is that Linuxmall is a commercial site - a vendor of > software. Would people assume that a freebsdmall site is also commercial? > > Linuxmall has a tarnished reputation for their practice of spamming the > newsgroups with "public service announcements." (Announcements of their > latest products and how much better they will make your life.) > > How about BSDheaven.org? That might be a good name for a place that has > info about the three free BSD OSes gathered in one place. > > TheWholeBSD.org > CompleteBSD.org > BSDworld.org > BSD-World.org If we're selling things, we should have a .com address instead of a .org. That should be enough to make it clear... I hope. More suggestions: BSDcentral.com BSD-Central.com BSDsource.com BSD-Source.com The .org variants of these are also available. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message