From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 27 14:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17083 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (sf3-32.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.84.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17044 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09446 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:15:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: InterJet radio ad.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is somewhat off topic, but anyways here it goes. Here I am listening to the radio (sappy wanabee rock station), and on comes this kinda catchy "soul" tune. Lo-and-behold it's not a song but a Whistle InterJet promo. Anyways, that kinda gave me this thought (or three). Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio equiv. of the powered by images). And actually the more different ads I hear, the more I think something like this would be a great idea (or perhaps hearing "No all you need is the Whistle InterJet powered by FreeBSD"). Also, what about getting RealAudio versions of these ads. Slashdot might be able to find some use for them.. as they certianly ate up the RV (or MPEG) Caldera TV ads.. (Hey, it's worth a shot). - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 27 16:01:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06137 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05967 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id PAA20039; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Alex cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InterJet radio ad.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do the add and submit it when you done. Right now FreeBSD Inc is busy making sure 3.0-RELEASE will be bug free. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Alex wrote: >This is somewhat off topic, but anyways here it goes. Here I am listening >to the radio (sappy wanabee rock station), and on comes this kinda catchy >"soul" tune. Lo-and-behold it's not a song but a Whistle InterJet promo. >Anyways, that kinda gave me this thought (or three). > >Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime >or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio >equiv. of the powered by images). And actually the more different ads I >hear, the more I think something like this would be a great idea (or >perhaps hearing "No all you need is the Whistle InterJet powered by >FreeBSD"). > >Also, what about getting RealAudio versions of these ads. Slashdot might >be able to find some use for them.. as they certianly ate up the RV (or >MPEG) Caldera TV ads.. (Hey, it's worth a shot). > >- alex > >| "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | >| technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | >| Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 27 18:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22303 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22249 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06042; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Alex cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InterJet radio ad.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:15:56 PDT." Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: <6039.906944571@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime > or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio Uh, yeah. OK, I'll put it on my "special TODO list." Anybody know if Brian Eno is looking for more work right about now? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 27 19:41:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10714 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-116.airnet.net [207.242.81.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10652 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00806; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:39:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Message-ID: <360EF6E9.E7DAA0EA@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:39:37 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InterJet radio ad.. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex wrote: > Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime > or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio > equiv. of the powered by images). And actually the more different ads I > hear, the more I think something like this would be a great idea (or > perhaps hearing "No all you need is the Whistle InterJet powered by > FreeBSD"). How 'bout one of those Windoze sounds followed the sound of a baseball bat hitting something large, metallic and computer-like. :-)) -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 27 20:57:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23034 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:57:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23018 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id UAA08427; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:56:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Kris Kirby cc: Alex , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InterJet radio ad.. In-Reply-To: <360EF6E9.E7DAA0EA@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Again, go for it. Just give use the URL when you are done! :P -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: >Alex wrote: >> Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime >> or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio >> equiv. of the powered by images). And actually the more different ads I >> hear, the more I think something like this would be a great idea (or >> perhaps hearing "No all you need is the Whistle InterJet powered by >> FreeBSD"). > >How 'bout one of those Windoze sounds followed the sound of a baseball >bat hitting something large, metallic and computer-like. :-)) >-- >Kris Kirby >UAH Mail UAH CS >Home WWW >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 28 23:06:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20704 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20692 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19796; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980928230519.B19599@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:05:19 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Alex Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InterJet radio ad.. Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <6039.906944571@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <6039.906944571@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 06:02:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 06:02:51PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Perhaps FreeBSD Inc. could come up with some type of sound bite or chime > > or whatever similar to the Intel Inside dealie (you know.. the TV/Radio > > Uh, yeah. OK, I'll put it on my "special TODO list." > > Anybody know if Brian Eno is looking for more work right about now? :-) Music for Pc's ?? Before and After Bill Gates ?? Taking Xinu mountain (by strategy) ?? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 01:17:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08535 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08519 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA26185 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10561 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:17:18 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:17:17 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-19980804-SNAP Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This does not look good.. :( -- David http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat By [40]Robert Lemos, [41]ZDNN September 25, 1998 4:01 PM PT It's a wake-up call for Windows NT. On Tuesday, long-time Microsoft ally Intel Corp. and rival browser maker Netscape Communications Corp. will announce an investment in [42]Red Hat Software Inc., a distributor of the alternative operating system Linux, according to a source familiar with the deal. The move is a major symbolic blow to Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:[43]MSFT), which has been pushing Windows NT server as a solution for Internet Service Providers. [44][LINK] The announcement is expected to be made at ISPCon Fall '98 in San Jose, Calif., during a presentation on Linux's future in business. Intel VP and Director of Sales and Marketing Sean Maloney, Netscape co-founder Marc Andreessen, and Linux creator Linus Torvalds are expected to be on hand for the event. ..snip.. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 01:38:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10992 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10987 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id BAA26638; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:37:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "David O'Brien" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-Reply-To: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually.. it does look good. Linux is gaining market share. Free Source. Everyone wins at the end? Well.. depend how you look at it. One thing I hear a lot: Linux is replacing Windows. Good for Linux. I would never want something like that said about FreeBSD. While Linux is too busy replacing Windows95, FreeBSD will continue been FreeBSD. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, David O'Brien wrote: >This does not look good.. :( >-- David > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html > >Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat > By [40]Robert Lemos, [41]ZDNN > September 25, 1998 4:01 PM PT > > It's a wake-up call for Windows NT. > > On Tuesday, long-time Microsoft ally Intel Corp. and rival browser > maker Netscape Communications Corp. will announce an investment in > [42]Red Hat Software Inc., a distributor of the alternative operating > system Linux, according to a source familiar with the deal. > > The move is a major symbolic blow to Microsoft Corp. > (Nasdaq:[43]MSFT), which has been pushing Windows NT server as a > solution for Internet Service Providers. > > [44][LINK] The announcement is expected to be made at ISPCon Fall '98 > in San Jose, Calif., during a presentation on Linux's future in > business. Intel VP and Director of Sales and Marketing Sean Maloney, > Netscape co-founder Marc Andreessen, and Linux creator Linus Torvalds > are expected to be on hand for the event. > >..snip.. > >-- >-- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 06:06:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17588 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:06:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17571 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA20983; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809291306.GAA20983@implode.root.com> To: obrien@NUXI.com cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:17:17 PDT." <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:06:50 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >This does not look good.. :( I dunno, it seems to be good news to me. It's not difficult to get Linux people to switch to FreeBSD, it happens frequently and they usually stick with us after switching. It's quite a different thing to get people to switch from NT, however. I see the popularity of Linux as being a stepping stone of sorts for us; it bridges the gap between the Microsoft world and the Unix world, bringing us more converts than we ever could have otherwise acheived. >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html > >Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 06:58:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25525 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25434 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no (2602@yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.182]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA00010; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:57:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:57:44 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: obrien@NUXI.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat References: <199809291306.GAA20983@implode.root.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 29 Sep 1998 15:57:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:06:50 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA25458 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman writes: > I dunno, it seems to be good news to me. It's not difficult to get Linux > people to switch to FreeBSD, it happens frequently and they usually stick > with us after switching. Yep. I'm slowly converting all my friends and acquaintances at University. Copped one more on Sunday and spent half the night yesterday handholding him through his first custom kernel build via talk(1) :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 11:31:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12259 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12195 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4000.ime.net [209.90.195.10]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA13164; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:29:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19980929142714.00a07b70@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:29:39 -0400 To: obrien@NUXI.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-Reply-To: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well it's both good and bad. The problem is, the bulk of the RHS Linux Home Users are 14 year old drooling zit-faced teens on Cable internet lines thinking they're "eleet hax0rz" because they aren't using Windows. I'm rather glad we don't see as much of a market share in that with FreeBSD. Doesn't mean they don't run it, it just means most of them are too lazy to do a little code-warrioring to compile stuff. Everyone wants to "be somebody". --- Another Thought Provoking Commentary by: Drew Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange http://www.droo.orland.me.us At 01:17 AM 9/29/98 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >This does not look good.. :( >-- David > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html > >Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat > By [40]Robert Lemos, [41]ZDNN > September 25, 1998 4:01 PM PT > > It's a wake-up call for Windows NT. > > On Tuesday, long-time Microsoft ally Intel Corp. and rival browser > maker Netscape Communications Corp. will announce an investment in > [42]Red Hat Software Inc., a distributor of the alternative operating > system Linux, according to a source familiar with the deal. > > The move is a major symbolic blow to Microsoft Corp. > (Nasdaq:[43]MSFT), which has been pushing Windows NT server as a > solution for Internet Service Providers. > > [44][LINK] The announcement is expected to be made at ISPCon Fall '98 > in San Jose, Calif., during a presentation on Linux's future in > business. Intel VP and Director of Sales and Marketing Sean Maloney, > Netscape co-founder Marc Andreessen, and Linux creator Linus Torvalds > are expected to be on hand for the event. > >..snip.. > >-- >-- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 12:08:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18181 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18176 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA112914; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:08:19 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:12:22 -0400 To: obrien@NUXI.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:17 AM -0700 9/29/98, David O'Brien wrote: > This does not look good.. :( >-- David You would rather that Linux wasn't growing, and that everyone was sticking with WindowsNT? Microsoft has already started beating the marketting drums for NT 5.0, trying to convince manager-types that the Microsoft way is the only way. I'm happy to see any open-source operating system gaining in marketshare and in crediability. I still prefer FreeBSD, but that doesn't mean I feel bad to see Linux having some success. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 13:24:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02018 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02002 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id NAA28502; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980929132352.D27934@nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:23:52 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Garance A Drosihn , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Garance A Drosihn on Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 03:12:22PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You would rather that Linux wasn't growing, and that everyone was > sticking with WindowsNT? Yep, I'm getting tired of all the rabid Linux weenies in the univerisity here (esp. the CS dept). I'm probably around more of them due to the student/university setting I'm in. I think BSD can win people over from NT, so I don't see the need to go thru Linux to get market share. Also, for what I do in my research lab, I often have to port things written on Linux to BSD, Solaris, SunOS, and Irix. I'm quite tired of the totally non-portable stuff that Linux perpetrates with its NIH syndrome. Network headers being the worst. Frankly, I just assume see Linux die. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 15:59:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00644 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (gw.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00631 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:59:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA01297 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980929155855.C26848@oneinsane.net> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:58:55 -0700 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Re: Microsoft worries over Linux] Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Once upon a time Georgiana S. Trigg shaped the electrons to say... >would say that perhaps Linux's popularity is because of it's GUI, but then Linux is a GUI? Since when? The only GUI I've ever seen on Linux is X - *if* I install it. I think Linux is popular because of the way it was developed, the history it has. It is a product of the community, for the community. And Linus' personality certainly has helped the popularity. And more and more vendors are jumping on the Linux bandwagon - while BSD/OS, and especially FreeBSD, aren't getting the same kind of vendor support. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 2:54PM up 19 days, 3:04, 4 users, load averages: 0.79, 0.88, 0.85 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 17:41:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16752 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16735 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4009.ime.net [209.90.195.19]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA09689; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:40:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19980929203532.00a40740@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:40:20 -0400 To: insane@oneinsane.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: [Re: Microsoft worries over Linux] In-Reply-To: <19980929155855.C26848@oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well here's some food for thought. First off, Linux has variations/flavors (they call them distributions, but you get the idea) on its own. That alone could make someone go "whoa, this is probably the better of them all". At the same time, you'd have to be pretty far off not to be able to install Linux.. Also the fact is, Red Hat is rather well off about publicizing their flavor. All in all, I don't like Linux because of who uses it, not because of the OS. Although I'm a seasoned (4+ years) user of FreeBSD, and Linux is well, different in some ways. Besides, you know as well as I "All the good hacking, nuking, and other fun denial of service stuff (for demonstration purposes, of course) comes from Linux. ". Unfortunately a lot of porting would have to be done to get most of it to work on FreeBSD too, I've traveled that road before. --- This Reflects the Opinions of OneEX, but not of any small gerbils in East Mississippi. Drew "Droobie" Baxter OneNetwork Exchange http://www.droo.orland.me.us At 03:58 PM 9/29/98 -0700, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: >Once upon a time Georgiana S. Trigg shaped the electrons to say... >>would say that perhaps Linux's popularity is because of it's GUI, but then > >Linux is a GUI? Since when? The only GUI I've ever seen on Linux is X - >*if* I install it. > >I think Linux is popular because of the way it was developed, the history >it has. It is a product of the community, for the community. And Linus' >personality certainly has helped the popularity. > >And more and more vendors are jumping on the Linux bandwagon - while >BSD/OS, and especially FreeBSD, aren't getting the same kind of vendor >support. > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... >The InSaNe One rm -rf * >insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void >------------------------------------------------------------------- >It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. >[----------------------------System Info---------------------------] > 2:54PM up 19 days, 3:04, 4 users, load averages: 0.79, 0.88, 0.85 > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 19:31:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03856 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dragon.ham.muohio.edu (dragon.ham.muohio.edu [134.53.147.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03850 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@dragon.ham.muohio.edu) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by dragon.ham.muohio.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25645 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:30:57 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:30:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Howard To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-Reply-To: <19980929132352.D27934@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, David O'Brien wrote: > Yep, I'm getting tired of all the rabid Linux weenies in the univerisity > here (esp. the CS dept). I'm probably around more of them due to the > student/university setting I'm in. I think BSD can win people over from > NT, so I don't see the need to go thru Linux to get market share. I just started here at the University of Maryland and I have already got 3 people to kill thier Linux installations in favor of FreeBSD (and one more who wants to, but can't because FreeBSD doesn't see his 10G hard drive right). Simply find a Linux user and show them how much easier life is, it works. Additionally, if anyone at the University of Maryland would be on this list and interested in forming a loal users group, or maybe a regional one dedicated to the *BSDs, email me at let me know. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 29 21:20:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18293 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18288 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from shell (shell.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.231]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA25342 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:20:36 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:18:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@shell To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA18289 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > David Greenman writes: > > I dunno, it seems to be good news to me. It's not difficult to get Linux > > people to switch to FreeBSD, it happens frequently and they usually stick > > with us after switching. > > Yep. I'm slowly converting all my friends and acquaintances at > University. Copped one more on Sunday and spent half the night > yesterday handholding him through his first custom kernel build via > talk(1) :) I have given few cd's at school away to instructors and students. One of my buddies there has already installed the system, but I think he might need a bit of hand holding too, although I don't mind helping others because it helps me as well (especially with installs on different systems and hardware). The sad part of it all is that most the students and instructors have heard about Linux, but not of FreeBSD. :( Well I guess that's why I'm there. :) Bear > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 00:43:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16132 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA16125 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id AAA30784; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:43:00 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id AAA02756; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:42:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "David O'Brien" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux looms large: Intel, Netscape slap NT, will invest in Red Hat In-Reply-To: <19980929011717.A10537@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, David O'Brien wrote: >This does not look good.. :( >-- David I gotta register myself in support of Linux' success. (One respondent remarked about the NIH syndrome. I can only say ,"yup" to that. But hey, I put green before red in my kilts.) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 05:05:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20333 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20327 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 05:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id OAA07748; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:05:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:05:04 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter Cc: insane@oneinsane.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Microsoft worries over Linux] References: <4.1.0.67.19980929203532.00a40740@genesis.ispace.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 30 Sep 1998 14:05:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: Drew Baxter's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:40:20 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA20329 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter writes: > At the same time, you'd have to be pretty far off not to be able to > install Linux.. You'd have to be pretty far off not to be able to install FreeBSD, too. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 07:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10236 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.mbc-nsc.com ([204.193.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10226 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rayseals@midwestis.com) Received: by firewall.mbc-nsc.com; id JAA21439; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(172.16.30.26) by firewall.mbc-nsc.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021374; Wed, 30 Sep 98 09:17:02 -0400 From: "Ray Seals" To: "Freebsd-Advocacy" Subject: On-line Help Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:29:26 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since Jordan and Greg read this group also, I would like to make this comment. The one thing I will hand to the Linux crowd is the HOWTO pages on their website. While we have a pretty decent set of help pages on our side. As a FreeBSD newbie (1.2 years) I have found some things rather difficult to track down. I propose that we spend some time porting their HOWTO pages to FreeBSD website. I'm sure the lack of documentation on how to do things is due to the fact that most of us aren't 14 year olds or in college. So, we don't have a lot of time on our hands to write documentation. We have to document enough stuff at work. How bad do you think that would piss those guys off? I'm not talking about down right copying either. I'm talking about using their stuff as a frame work to see what is needed by the general public in terms of documentation for tasks. Ray ---------------------------------------- Midwest Information Systems http://www.midwestis.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ray Seals Systems Consultant rayseals@midwestis.com Direct Dial: 314.930.0479 Office: 314.423.8377 ext. 113 Fax: 314.423.3944 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Providing clear vision to the future" ---------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 09:02:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24172 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24166 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA36164; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:02:31 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA04693; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Ray Seals cc: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: Re: On-line Help In-Reply-To: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Ray Seals wrote: >Since Jordan and Greg read this group also, I would like to make this >comment. The one thing I will hand to the Linux crowd is the HOWTO pages on >their website. While we have a pretty decent set of help pages on our side. >As a FreeBSD newbie (1.2 years) I have found some things rather difficult to >track down. I propose that we spend some time porting their HOWTO pages to Even that requires manpower. Tutorials do get written. FAQs do get written. The handbook does get written. The book does get published. All of these documents include "HOWTO" documentation. More documentation is always a good thing, but it requires manpower. I fail to see that an entirely new an independent documentation effort is necessary. There is already a framework in place for the submission of documentation. This current framework only requires manpower. I do agree that there is some difficulty in the indexing all of the documentation. This problem is common to the entire net. When I can't find what I am looking for in the provided indexes, I use the website search engine. If it's on the website, I'll find it. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 09:25:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26963 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:25:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.mbc-nsc.com ([204.193.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26958 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rayseals@midwestis.com) Received: by firewall.mbc-nsc.com; id LAA06122; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(172.16.30.26) by firewall.mbc-nsc.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma006058; Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:21:34 -0400 From: "Ray Seals" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: "Freebsd-Advocacy" Subject: RE: On-line Help Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:25:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01bdec8f$0215bf20$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The fact that they have a wider appeal means that they get a lot more questions asked about stuff that we probably take for common knowledge. Look at what they have answered and duplicate those subjects. > Even that requires manpower. > > Tutorials do get written. FAQs do get written. The handbook does get > written. The book does get published. All of these documents include > "HOWTO" documentation. > > More documentation is always a good thing, but it requires manpower. > > I fail to see that an entirely new an independent documentation effort is > necessary. There is already a framework in place for the submission of > documentation. This current framework only requires manpower. > > I do agree that there is some difficulty in the indexing all of the > documentation. This problem is common to the entire net. When I can't find > what I am looking for in the provided indexes, I use the website search > engine. If it's on the website, I'll find it. I understand the manpower issue and I'm not proposing a new effort. I'm just as guilty as a lot of people are when it comes to contributing. I know the Jordan and many others are constantly asked "What can I do". That is the focus of my message. We all have to work through problems getting something to work on a FreeBSD box. If you found a Linux HOWTO page that helped you out (maybe you had to change a few things) re-write the thing for FreeBSD and submit it. Ray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 10:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04993 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from exchangeserver.mpainc.com ([198.246.145.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04978 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from RickSiple@mpainc.com) Received: by EXCHANGESERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: <50D018439050D211AFB1006008CEB82D0615BD@EXCHANGESERVER> From: Rick Siple To: "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: Hewlett-Packard Firehunter Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:04:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Found this article on Yahoo! today. HP's Firehunter product, an "end-to-end service-management software solution for Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Enterprise/IT innovators" has support for FreeBSD. Excerpt from web page: "Firehunter gathers data from individual applications, servers, network links and networking equipment within your environment. From this data it builds a service-centric information base. And from this information base, Firehunter enables operators to monitor and graph individual components, events, and measurements, which together comprise higher level Internet services." Seems that support from Hewlett-Packard in one of their products, particularly one dealing with ISPs, deserves at least a mention on the Commercial Vendors page. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980929/hewlett_pa_6.html http://www.firehunter.com __________ Rick Siple ricksiple@mpainc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 10:04:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05164 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from summersault.com (summersault.com [199.120.185.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05100 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@summersault.com) Received: (qmail 25115 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Sep 1998 17:13:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 1998 17:13:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:13:21 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Stosberg To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! With all this discussion of FreeBSD vs. Linux flying around, I decided to see what I could find on the web on the comparision, because a well done "freeBSD is better than Linux for these reasons" page could be a powerful and persausive document that we could point Linux users and the media to. I found two pages: http://www.tiny1.demon.co.uk/case-histories/COLM-4-25-95.html favors Linux http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) This is attempting to be unbiased, although it is on the "Linux Resource Exchange Page". Linux seems to fair slightly better in the comparision. I also looked through freebsd.org for this sort of document, but couldn't find one. I even tried http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ :) I'm interesting in helping such a page come to life, but I don't have enough experience with FreeBSD or the technical detail of the two OSes to build the guts of this document. Benchmarking info and statistics would be great here. I *could* help with some graphic design and web design enhancements (charts and graphs?). That's why my strongest skills lie. -mark Designer, Summersault Web Design http://www.summersault.com/mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 10:32:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09370 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09342; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA17481; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:31:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199809301731.LAA17481@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.63 (Beta) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:19:02 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: James Love (by way of Brett Glass ) Subject: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent second-class status? --Brett ------------------- http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/in092998.htm "Intel has spent a lot of time over the last year and a half with ISPs learning about their business and technology requirements," said Sean Maloney, Intel Vice President and director of the sales and marketing group. "ISPs require support for a range of operating systems - from Windows NT to UNIX and Linux. We want to ensure that all of these operating systems run optimally on the Intel Architecture." Intel initiatives in the Linux arena include the following: * Technical efforts including an Intel technical and engineering liaison to the Linux community; work with the I20 special interest group (SIG) and Project UDI (Uniform Driver Interface) to enable greater availability of Linux device drivers for Intel-based servers; and additional optimization efforts to ensure Linux is optimized for future Intel processors. * Formation of an Intel Linux User Group, kicked off by a special appearance by Linus Torvalds at the Intel Oregon campus last week. * Membership in Linux International "The initiatives Intel is announcing today indicate the relationship between Intel and the Linux community is growing stronger," said Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux. "Our combined efforts will enable the expansion of Linux OS performance and services that will drive more mainstream acceptance of Linux." -- James Love Consumer Project on Technology P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 http://www.cptech.org love@cptech.org 202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5176 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 10:42:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11394 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from summersault.com (summersault.com [199.120.185.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11286 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@summersault.com) Received: (qmail 25328 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Sep 1998 17:50:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 1998 17:50:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:50:43 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Stosberg To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! With all this discussion of FreeBSD vs. Linux flying around, I decided to see what I could find on the web on the comparision, because a well done "freeBSD is better than Linux for these reasons" page could be a powerful and persausive document that we could point Linux users and the media to. I found two pages: http://www.tiny1.demon.co.uk/case-histories/COLM-4-25-95.html favors Linux http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) This is attempting to be unbiased, although it is on the "Linux Resource Exchange Page". Linux seems to fair slightly better in the comparision. I also looked through freebsd.org for this sort of document, but couldn't find one. I even tried http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ :) I'm interesting in helping such a page come to life, but I don't have enough experience with FreeBSD or the technical detail of the two OSes to build the guts of this document. Benchmarking info and statistics would be great here. I *could* help with some graphic design and web design enhancements (charts and graphs?). That's why my strongest skills lie. -mark Designer, Summersault Web Design http://www.summersault.com/mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 11:06:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15771 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15745; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA17844; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:06:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199809301806.MAA17844@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.63 (Beta) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:05:38 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan: With all due respect, I think you are being too conciliatory. FreeBSD *is* falling behind. (Where's the CAM support for all those SCSI host adapters? Where's a production-level version of SMP?) Worse still, Walnut Creek seems to be doing just about ZIP to promote FreeBSD, in the face of a groundswell of publicity for Linux. It had the chance to be Red Hat before Red Hat existed, and blew it. This neglect at a crucial time could reduce FreeBSD to a weakly supported, largely ignored, niche OS without anywhere near critical mass. My gut feeling -- and my gut has a pretty darn good track record when it comes to industry trends -- is that it's a do-or-die situation RIGHT NOW. FreeBSD needs some serious leadership, advocacy, and investment ASAP. The ball is rolling around aimlessly on the field; who's gonna pick up the fumble and run for the goal line? --Brett At 10:31 AM 9/30/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >[Redirected just to -chat; for the last time, cross posting is not desired!] > >> Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the >> Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of >> device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same >> for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent >> second-class status? > >No. And what's with all the chicken-little stuff going around these >days, guys? It's really self-defeating and rather unnecessary to >boot. If nobody is embracing free software, we cry and moan. If >people are embracing free software, but just not our particular flavor >of the moment, we cry and moan some more. Conveniently forgotten in >all of this is the fact that this is all new territory for the likes >of Intel and OF COURSE they're going to go courting the Linux folks as >an obvious first choice because they are, well, the obvious first >choice. > >Being the first and obvious choice comes from having millions of users >and lots of magazine coverage and LOTS and LOTS of BOOKS in the >bookstores and all the other indicators which people with suits on are >bound to look at before jumping into any new fad (and let's face it, >that's what we're looking at right now). People aren't going to start >knocking down our doors with movie deals and autograph books just >because we all really really want that to happen or because we know >FreeBSD Is The Right Solution or any of that stuff, it'll happen when >a certain critical mass has been achieved and the time for that to >happen has been reached. > >Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if >they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be >content with it getting there not quite as fast). All this kvetching >in mailing lists that Opinion Leaders(tm) don't even read doesn't get >us anywhere. > >- Jordan > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 11:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16939 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from summersault.com (summersault.com [199.120.185.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16934 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@summersault.com) Received: (qmail 25417 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Sep 1998 18:23:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 1998 18:23:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:23:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Stosberg To: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! With all this discussion of FreeBSD vs. Linux flying around, I decided to see what I could find on the web on the comparision, because a well done "freeBSD is better than Linux for these reasons" page could be a powerful and persausive document that we could point Linux users and the media to. I found two pages: http://www.tiny1.demon.co.uk/case-histories/COLM-4-25-95.html favors Linux http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) This is attempting to be unbiased, although it is on the "Linux Resource Exchange Page". Linux seems to fair slightly better in the comparision. I also looked through freebsd.org for this sort of document, but couldn't find one. I even tried http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ :) I'm interesting in helping such a page come to life, but I don't have enough experience with FreeBSD or the technical detail of the two OSes to build the guts of this document. Benchmarking info and statistics would be great here. I *could* help with some graphic design and web design enhancements (charts and graphs?). That's why my strongest skills lie. -mark Designer, Summersault Web Design http://www.summersault.com/mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 11:24:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19172 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18851; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id OAA27953; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: James Love cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <199809301731.LAA17481@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My current understanding is this is a no brainer and nothing to worry about. Thats just press fluff. FreeBSD is very well respected at intel labs. And they will fork over anything we need. AFAIK. So I wouldnt worry about it. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 12:02:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27381 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27363 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23850; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Stosberg cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:13:21 CDT." Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:50:17 -0700 Message-ID: <23846.907181417@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > http://www.tiny1.demon.co.uk/case-histories/COLM-4-25-95.html > favors Linux No surprise. Larry McVoy has been a positively rabid BSD basher. :) > http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html > (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) > This is attempting to be unbiased, although it is on the > "Linux Resource Exchange Page". Linux seems to fair slightly better > in the comparision. Somewhat old. > I also looked through freebsd.org for this sort of document, but couldn't fin d > one. I even tried http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ :) Nobody's ever had the temerity to do one, I think. :-) http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsdvlin.html is another page, but it's mostly just full of testimonials. I'm not sure you'll find much graphable data, to be honest, unless you have some scratch machines lying around to test with. Most folks don't tend to gather those kinds of stats, at least I've never seen any. Good luck! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 15:43:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14014 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13914 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id AAA06518; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:41:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:41:55 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Stosberg Cc: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: Re: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:41:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Stosberg's message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:23:06 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA13940 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Stosberg writes: > http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html > (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) Their information about FreeBSD is outdated, erroneous and/or biased. I counted 11 incorrect answers out of 33. I mailed a few corrections to the maintainer. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 19:12:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19020 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19012 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA05793 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id CAA29952 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 02:12:00 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19980930191200.A29201@nuxi.com> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:12:00 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/? Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <23846.907181417@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <23846.907181417@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 11:50:17AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-BETA Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > http://www.linuxrx.com/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html > > (check the boxes for Linux and FreeBSD) > > Somewhat old. Also claims we have three versions, with "STABLE" being the oldest -- behind "releases". Sent him mail trying to explain that as far was we are conserned there are two versions/branches. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 30 19:15:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19633 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19599; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA19144; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:45:31 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA03695; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:45:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981001114527.E603@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:45:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ray Seals , Freebsd-Advocacy Cc: Jordan Hubbard , FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On-line Help References: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com>; from Ray Seals on Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 09:29:26AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 30 September 1998 at 9:29:26 -0500, Ray Seals wrote: > > Since Jordan and Greg read this group also, I can't speak for Jordan, but in my case I read this list when I have time. I try to find time, but I don't always succeed. So: if you want to be sure I read a specific message, please copy me on it explicitly. I always read messages addressed to me directly. In view of that and the subject matter, I'm copying Jordan (who may have a lot to say) and the documentation project on this message. > I would like to make this comment. The one thing I will hand to the > Linux crowd is the HOWTO pages on their website. While we have a > pretty decent set of help pages on our side. As a FreeBSD newbie > (1.2 years) I have found some things rather difficult to track down. > I propose that we spend some time porting their HOWTO pages to > FreeBSD website. I'm sure the lack of documentation on how to do > things is due to the fact that most of us aren't 14 year olds or in > college. So, we don't have a lot of time on our hands to write > documentation. We have to document enough stuff at work. Agreed. I had thought of collecting the howtos and adapting them to FreeBSD as an interim measure. Note that this would mean that they would be under the GPL; I don't see a big problem with this, though I know others do. > How bad do you think that would piss those guys off? They have no reason to be pissed off. If they release stuff under the GPL, they must expect (even welcome) this to happen. > I'm not talking about down right copying either. I'm talking about > using their stuff as a frame work to see what is needed by the > general public in terms of documentation for tasks. Sure. Nothing else would work. I'm very much in favour of the idea, but we should bear in mind that the documents will come under the GPL, so I'd suggest that we keep the FreeBSD-specific stuff elsewhere (under a Berkeley copyright) and parallel to that merge them into the GPL version. That way, when we have time, we can make a complete Berkeley version which is not affected by the GPL. Any suggestions where we should start? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 1 00:20:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03119 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03048; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26913; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Ray Seals , Freebsd-Advocacy , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: On-line Help In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:45:27 +0930." <19981001114527.E603@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 00:07:32 -0700 Message-ID: <26908.907225652@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [-doc snipped; I think -advocacy covers this] > In view of that and the subject matter, I'm copying Jordan (who may > have a lot to say) and the documentation project on this message. Actually, I don't have a lot to say other than "rah rah!" since this idea has come up about 5 times now (at least) but nobody has ever followed through with the actual work to make it happen. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 03:53:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02924 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 03:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02913; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 03:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28044; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:52:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA11671; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:52:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981002125251.54527@follo.net> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:52:52 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey , Ray Seals , Freebsd-Advocacy Cc: FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On-line Help References: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> <19981001114527.E603@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981001114527.E603@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Oct 01, 1998 at 11:45:27AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 01, 1998 at 11:45:27AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I would like to make this comment. The one thing I will hand to the > > Linux crowd is the HOWTO pages on their website. While we have a > > pretty decent set of help pages on our side. As a FreeBSD newbie > > (1.2 years) I have found some things rather difficult to track down. > > I propose that we spend some time porting their HOWTO pages to > > FreeBSD website. I'm sure the lack of documentation on how to do > > things is due to the fact that most of us aren't 14 year olds or in > > college. So, we don't have a lot of time on our hands to write > > documentation. We have to document enough stuff at work. > > Agreed. I had thought of collecting the howtos and adapting them to > FreeBSD as an interim measure. Note that this would mean that they > would be under the GPL; I don't see a big problem with this, though I > know others do. > > > How bad do you think that would piss those guys off? > > They have no reason to be pissed off. If they release stuff under the > GPL, they must expect (even welcome) this to happen. The Linux HOWTOs are under a bunch of different copyrights; the restriction for the Linux Documentation Project is that they are freely redistributable in any form, not that they are under the GPL, if I understand correctly. Apart from that, I've only been in contact with one of the authors, but he was clearly positive to a 'port' :-) Perhaps we technically should do the conversions as this - directly as FreeBSD ports, where people can just install them (and thus get them in /usr/local/share/doc/HOWTO/ or somesuch). That way, there is at least a structure in place for keeping them up to date - and there is precedence for pure documentation port (e.g, the Emacs Lisp manual). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 08:55:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19529 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.guate.net (ns1.guate.net [200.12.63.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19500 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@guate.net) Received: from ns.guate.net (ns.guate.net [200.12.63.25]) by ns1.guate.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26845 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 09:55:02 -0600 Received: from guate.net (pm8b-s12.guate.net [168.234.151.113]) by ns.guate.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16284 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 09:54:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <361432A1.754D1DAA@guate.net> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 07:55:45 +0600 From: Oscar Bonilla X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 10:49:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08755 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 10:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08750 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 10:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07910 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:48:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:48:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new issue of Daemon News out Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, The latest issue of Daemon News is out. You can read all of the new articles at: http://www.daemonnews.org/ Brett Taylor (for the whole Daemon News team) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 11:55:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17581 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17576 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@East.Sun.COM) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id LAA12516 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:55:17 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id OAA05447; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:55:13 -0400 Received: from east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26017; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:54:20 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by east.sun.com (8.9.1/8.7.3) id NAA01161; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:53:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:53:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PETSc X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG from http://www.msc.anl.gov: We no longer actively support FreeBSD or the Intel Paragon.. If you are really need these machines with PETSc and it is important to you, please send mail to petsc-maint@mcs.anl.gov and we will provide you with the bmake files. If you currently use FreeBSD, we highly recommend switching to Linux; we plan to provide strong Linux support in the future. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 12:38:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22973 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22945 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13197; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id OAA02352; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:57 -0500 Message-ID: <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:56 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: alk@pobox.com Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc References: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east>; from Tony Kimball on Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:00PM -0500, Tony Kimball wrote: > from http://www.msc.anl.gov: > > We no longer actively support FreeBSD or the Intel Paragon.. If you > are really need these machines with PETSc and it is important to you, > please send mail to petsc-maint@mcs.anl.gov and we will provide you > with the bmake files. If you currently use FreeBSD, we highly > recommend switching to Linux; we plan to provide strong Linux support > in the future. They also say: One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially worthless; it should not even be called make! Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 14:37:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09598 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09584 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA34012 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:03 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA14428 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Submissions to Daemon News In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Brett Taylor wrote: >Hi, > >The latest issue of Daemon News is out. You can read all of the new >articles at: > > http://www.daemonnews.org/ > >Brett Taylor What is the process for getting an article submitted. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 15:46:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18307 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18297 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA21626; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:15 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id PAA21229; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Jonathan Lemon cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc In-Reply-To: <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >They also say: > > One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD > make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially > worthless; it should not even be called make! > >Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? Wasn't BSD make the first make ? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 16:03:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20133 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:03:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20122 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id QAA13482 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:02:44 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id QAA02450 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:02:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Make Notes Was: PETSc In-Reply-To: <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Spoke too soon. AT&T had the first make. SVR2 laid the basis. This "Oh Really" book is telling. It looks like FreeBSD added a couple features back into make (since 4.3) in order to make it more like SV. Suffixes, includes, MAKE, were not supported in BSD 4.3 but I know I have seen them floating around my system. I wonder what that website was griping about? In any case, is this the NIH that Jordan was writing of in his article? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 18:13:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05958 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05936 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA09345; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:43:08 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA07515; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:43:08 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981003104308.M2176@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:43:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , Jonathan Lemon Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc References: <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 03:46:08PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 15:46:08 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > >> They also say: >> >> One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD >> make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially >> worthless; it should not even be called make! >> >> Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? > > Wasn't BSD make the first make ? No. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 18:53:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10117 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10089 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA09491; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:22:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA07652; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:22:27 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981003112227.S2176@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:22:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon , alk@pobox.com Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc References: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east> <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 02:37:56PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 14:37:56 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:00PM -0500, Tony Kimball wrote: >> from http://www.msc.anl.gov: >> >> We no longer actively support FreeBSD or the Intel Paragon.. If you >> are really need these machines with PETSc and it is important to you, >> please send mail to petsc-maint@mcs.anl.gov and we will provide you >> with the bmake files. If you currently use FreeBSD, we highly >> recommend switching to Linux; we plan to provide strong Linux support >> in the future. > > They also say: > > One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD > make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially > worthless; it should not even be called make! > > Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? Well, you must be looking at a whole different web. My DNS can't find www.msc.anl.gov, so I tried http://www.mcs.anl.gov. But there's no mention of FreeBSD on that page. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 18:59:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11210 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11198 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14214; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:59:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id UAA00574; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:58:57 -0500 Message-ID: <19981002205856.25864@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:58:56 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Greg Lehey Cc: alk@pobox.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc References: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east> <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> <19981003112227.S2176@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19981003112227.S2176@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Oct 10, 1998 at 11:22:27AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Oct 10, 1998 at 11:22:27AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 14:37:56 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > On Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:00PM -0500, Tony Kimball wrote: > >> from http://www.msc.anl.gov: > >> > >> We no longer actively support FreeBSD or the Intel Paragon.. If you > >> are really need these machines with PETSc and it is important to you, > >> please send mail to petsc-maint@mcs.anl.gov and we will provide you > >> with the bmake files. If you currently use FreeBSD, we highly > >> recommend switching to Linux; we plan to provide strong Linux support > >> in the future. > > > > They also say: > > > > One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD > > make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially > > worthless; it should not even be called make! > > > > Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? > > Well, you must be looking at a whole different web. My DNS can't find > www.msc.anl.gov, so I tried http://www.mcs.anl.gov. But there's no > mention of FreeBSD on that page. I believe it was http://www.mcs.anl.gov -> software -> petsc -> machines (sorry, I don't have the url handy right now) Also, IIRC, BSD make (pmake) took a lot of pains to remain compliant with "basic" make, so I feel that this was an unwarranted slam. (Yes, I did send off a note to the maintainers). -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 19:08:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12255 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12149 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA09561; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:37:07 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA07710; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:36:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981003113655.T2176@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:36:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: alk@pobox.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PETSc References: <13845.8432.160567.743719@avalon.east> <19981002143756.08043@right.PCS> <19981003112227.S2176@freebie.lemis.com> <19981002205856.25864@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981002205856.25864@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 08:58:56PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 20:58:56 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Oct 10, 1998 at 11:22:27AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 14:37:56 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >>> On Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:00PM -0500, Tony Kimball wrote: >>>> from http://www.msc.anl.gov: >>>> >>>> We no longer actively support FreeBSD or the Intel Paragon.. If you >>>> are really need these machines with PETSc and it is important to you, >>>> please send mail to petsc-maint@mcs.anl.gov and we will provide you >>>> with the bmake files. If you currently use FreeBSD, we highly >>>> recommend switching to Linux; we plan to provide strong Linux support >>>> in the future. >>> >>> They also say: >>> >>> One must use gnumake, not the freeBSD make. The freeBSD >>> make was heavily modified from real make and is essentially >>> worthless; it should not even be called make! >>> >>> Showing a certain bias (and ignorance) here, aren't they? >> >> Well, you must be looking at a whole different web. My DNS can't find >> www.msc.anl.gov, so I tried http://www.mcs.anl.gov. But there's no >> mention of FreeBSD on that page. > > I believe it was http://www.mcs.anl.gov -> software -> petsc -> machines > > (sorry, I don't have the url handy right now) Ah. It's http://www.mcs.anl.gov/petsc/docs/machines.html (but it's hidden behind an unbookmarkable frame. What do these people think of?). Well, yes, it's another typical case of Linux bigotry. I wouldn't take it much more seriously than a teenager flaming in a newsgroup. > Also, IIRC, BSD make (pmake) took a lot of pains to remain compliant > with "basic" make, so I feel that this was an unwarranted slam. > (Yes, I did send off a note to the maintainers). Well, that's not the way I see it. BSD (p)make does contain some gratuitous changes compared to AT&T make. It works pretty well, but it's not suitable for compiling GNU software. GNU make also contains a number of changes which are incompatible with the BSD changes, but on the whole it stays much more compatible with AT&T make. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 19:33:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14442 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:33:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14435 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (fpawlak@ferengal-1-7.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.7]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA18139 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:33:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA11377 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:33:28 -0500 Message-ID: <19981002213328.A11336@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:33:28 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: TheCompleteFreeBSD@execpc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This afternoon I had the most pleasant of surprises. I was in the bookstore at The University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee to pick up a text for a class that I'm taking. I wandered into the engineering book section and there it was. The Complete FreeBSD is being used as a text in a class on software engineering. Apparently they are using FreeBSD as a development platform. It must be a bit of a rush to learn that half way around the globe your book is being used as a text at a major university. Congrats Greg, and to the FreeBSD team. Sorry to end on a down note, but can't help but wonder why it is not also upstairs with the software competing with Linux. WC has to get their marketing act on the road and spread the gospel. --Frank "At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." --Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 20:05:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16776 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16765 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (fpawlak@ferengal-1-7.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.7]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA27328; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:04:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA11696; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:04:50 -0500 Message-ID: <19981002220450.A11661@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:04:50 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <23753.907180614@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002185944.040ed850@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981002185944.040ed850@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 07:08:53PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 07:08:53PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:36 AM 9/30/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I don't think so. Every announcement of Linux advocacy and support > by a major vendor leaves FreeBSD increasingly in the dust. > > >I dunno, but it really looks from my angle like you're trying > >extremely hard to see defeat where demonstrable progress exists > >and I find that hard to fathom. > > Every time a major vendor supports Linux without also supporting > FreeBSD, it's a defeat. A major one. And the rate of those defeats > is accelerating daily. I have to agree with Brett 100% on this one, while adding that it is damned painful to watch. > We can argue over how much it "simplifies" things, but it's nonetheless > so. I don't see FreeBSD getting 1/100th the advertising, advocacy, and > other vital market support from Walnut Creek that Linux gets from Red > Hat alone (forgetting Caldera, Corel, and others for the moment). This, in my opinion, is the *major* problem. Their marketing bites the big one. I just posted regarding The Complete FreeBSD being used as a text at the university that I'm attending. FreeBSD is nowhere to be seen with the other Open Source Operating Systems. I know for a fact that WC uses the same wholesalers as RedHat and Caldera. So the logical question is what the fsck gives. > > >Nice rhetoric - I especially like the football analogy at the end > >there. Rah rah. Go team. It's also surprisingly apt since I find > >this kind of advocacy about as useful as a football cheer from the > >stands - it conveys a certain degree of concern for the outcome of the > >play, agreed, but it also suggests nothing more specific than the fact > >that winning would probably be a really popular move on my part. This is just the very thing that has helped push Linux over the top, except that the Linux cheerleaders are a bunch of obnoxious little shits. > I've made a specific suggestion: Pick up the fumble. Denying that there > has BEEN a fumble does no good when the ball is rolling loose on the > ground. Here I'll disagree. The ball is no longer rolling around the ground, but is firmly in the grasp of Linux, and they have advanced it into the defensive secondary on the way to the goal line > > >That one dirty little word we haven't mentioned yet, however, and the > >one I think you've conveniently overlooked in all of your brum and > >bluster is: "Logistics." Start coming up with some decent plans for > >growing new structures within the project without killing it in the > >process and you'll have a lot more of my attention than you're getting > >with this kind of fiery pulpit-pounding. Aaahh, Tried this but didn't get a whole lot of support. Started a few flame fests, but that's about all. > Well, I'm afraid that right now the initiative lies with your employer, > Walnut Creek. The only other option besides promotion, advocacy, and > support from that company is to create a split in the market by > introducing another vendor. Can't add much to this, except that I view it the same way. -- --Frank "At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." --Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 20:42:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20303 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20294 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11034; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: TheCompleteFreeBSD@execpc.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:33:28 CDT." <19981002213328.A11336@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:31:13 -0700 Message-ID: <11030.907385473@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sorry to end on a down note, but can't help but wonder why it is not > also upstairs with the software competing with Linux. WC has to get > their marketing act on the road and spread the gospel. Someone has been hired as a new VP of marketing to do exactly that, and he's already done a substantial U.S. tour of distributors to hawk our wares. I'd say this is a situation which can only improve. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 20:53:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20962 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20954 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA27746; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 23:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 23:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: TheCompleteFreeBSD@execpc.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <11030.907385473@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Someone has been hired as a new VP of marketing to do exactly that, > and he's already done a substantial U.S. tour of distributors to hawk > our wares. I'd say this is a situation which can only improve. I am probably incorrect here but ANOTHER one? does this make #3? :-) Anonymous -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:03:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21893 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21886 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11203; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Frank Pawlak cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:04:50 CDT." <19981002220450.A11661@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:51:35 -0700 Message-ID: <11199.907386695@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have to agree with Brett 100% on this one, while adding that it is > damned painful to watch. So *DO SOMETHING*. Geeze, do I have to spell it out in letters of 10 foot neon? This is not the cabalistic OS you seem to think it is, with people like me controlling every aspect of its progress. To even imagine this gives me way too much credit and conveniently puts aside the fact that volunteer labor, both ours and several previous generation's worth of grad students, is what got us here today (not me). Volunteer labor is also, not so coincidently, what got Linux to where it is today in all the areas that you and Brett are crying over. It's not Red Hat's doing - they're just surfing the top of the wave and trying to make it look as if they're actually steering it. Poppycock. You have a choice. As I have said so many times now that it must be becoming a litany, if you want to do FreeBSD a whole bunch of good for very little comparative cost, go write a book. Or a magazine article. Or even a 10 page self-help guide (which frequently grow into books anyway). You don't need anyone's help or buy-in or official blessing to do any of that, you just need to get up off your asses, stop wasting time whining to people who are only going to see it as whining anyway, and write the bloody things. If you're not willing to do that much then it follows that you probably didn't actually care as passionately about the matter as you thought you did anyway and should probably stop wasting people's time with assertions that you do. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:04:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22099 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22091; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA09899; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:34:23 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA07921; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:34:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:34:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <10999.907385320@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 09:54:18PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At the risk of inducing Jordan's ire, I'm cross-posting this message to -chat (as Bcc:) and -advocacy. Please reply only to -advocacy. I'm doing this because I think an unpleasant situation is developing, and I'd like the personal view of as many FreeBSD users as possible. If *you* think this is important, please let me know what you think. On Friday, 2 October 1998 at 21:54:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:28 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> It's interesting that you should say something like this, because I >> myself was just puzzling over the great disparity between your recent >> postings on the mailing lists (or your usenet contributions) and your >> print advocacy. When you're writing for the likes of Sm@rt Reseller, >> for example, you seem to understand just fine where the right balance >> between passion and logic lies and you generally make a pretty >> convincing argument which manages both to be readable and to convey >> the information you're trying to impart to the reader. As a body of >> communication, what you've done for print journalism has been just fine >> and is to be commended. >> >> When it's time to go home to your PC, however, you apparently drop >> your logic cap into a desk drawer and lock the door, off to give the >> more passionate side of your nature a turn in the uninhibited disco >> lights of various public mailing lists. > > Not so. In print, I am doing appropriate explanation and advocacy. > On these lists, I am projecting trends. And I am stating, quite > bluntly, that my minor and little-read recommendations are nowhere > near enough to stop FreeBSD's current slide toward insignificance > at the hands of the Linux zealots (who have managed to gain the > undivided mindshare of such prominent folk as Nick Petreley, > Nader's "Appraising Microsoft" team, etc.) Your're very much entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, when you go out on lists like that, many people will consider you to be a typical FreeBSD user, which I think you are not. Both Jordan and I have repeatedly stated that we think you are harming FreeBSD more than you're helping it (though we both appreciate the good you do, as Jordan shows above). We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on Jordan, of course :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:12:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22813 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22785 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA11786; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:12:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981002220838.040ebcf0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:11:35 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Frank Pawlak From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11199.907386695@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:51 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Volunteer labor is also, not so coincidently, what got Linux to >where it is today in all the areas that you and Brett are crying over. >It's not Red Hat's doing - they're just surfing the top of the wave >and trying to make it look as if they're actually steering it. Poppycock. They're not just surfing. They're making a big investment of their own. >You have a choice. As I have said so many times now that it must be >becoming a litany, if you want to do FreeBSD a whole bunch of good for >very little comparative cost, go write a book. Or a magazine article. >Or even a 10 page self-help guide (which frequently grow into books >anyway). You don't need anyone's help or buy-in or official blessing >to do any of that.... Sorry, but I've been there and done that. I've written plenty of magazine articles and am working on a book, but neither will do anything significant to stop the accelerating trend. Marketing and investment will. Now, who's gonna do it? If Walnut Creek won't, must we have a schism? I'd sure rather not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:19:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23596 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23591 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA19335; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:27:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199810030427.OAA19335@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Oct 3, 98 01:34:21 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:27:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: > should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he > should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on > Jordan, of course :-) I don't read news, so I haven't seen the messages that Brett posts there. Going by what I see posted to FreeBSD mailing lists, I'd ask him to consider how others see him. I have trouble being patient with fanatics. He should lighten up. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23653 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23646 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id AAA01860 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just wanted to report that today I finally got rid of my 25th (out of 25) 2.2.6 CD's generously donated by WC. There are now 25 offices/companies running FreeBSD as a front line server. Some were ALOT harder to sway than others but with a little "Run this on a main front line server cause im not taking no for an answer" and some basics facts about our superior heritage and power all went basically smooth. So we can now add another 25 companies to running FreeBSD on the front lines in some capacity. Anyway just a quick update. Anyone else have any stories about their luck with their CD's? Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:27:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24312 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24307 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA23632; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:26:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:26:54 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] > Your're very much entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, when > you go out on lists like that, many people will consider you to be a > typical FreeBSD user, which I think you are not. Both Jordan and I > have repeatedly stated that we think you are harming FreeBSD more than > you're helping it (though we both appreciate the good you do, as > Jordan shows above). >From what I've seen and read, Brett has been very gung-ho about promoting FreeBSD. Those of us who use it know that we are using a technically excellent product, and like any good thing, we want to share it with the world. Unfortunately, up to, and including recently - many of us haven't put much effort towards promoting it as much as we could have. Brett's efforts have encouraged many of us to go out there with the same enthusiasm of our Linux friends, and constantly remind them about FreeBSD. :) > We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: > should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he > should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on > Jordan, of course :-) However. Many of us dislike the attitude of those in the Linux camp. We're all familiar with the blanket-marketing of Microsoft, and in many ways, the approaches of some zealots in the Linux camp imitate this. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as Microsoft has gained hugely in terms of market share because of this, and recent announcements by Oracle and Intel to support Linux show that this is working. Where I think Brett may be having a derogatory effect, is when he attacks Linux. As Robert Hart pointed out (for those don't know, he's some bigwig at Red Hat) at the recent AUUG '98 conference in Sydney - Linux is not attacking the traditional unix server market, though it is making headway there. Instead, it is aiming at the desktop market, which has traditionally been dominated by Windows. There is so much market share there, he said, that if Linux only got a tiny percentage of a percentage, that'd be a huge leap forward. In other words, Brett, aim your guns at the Microsoft juggernaut. As the open source unices march forward eating up MS market share, we will all benefit. Of course there has to be a trailblazer, and in this case it is Linux. But remember, we're not too far behind... > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 21:39:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25730 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25710 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA25997; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:39:10 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:39:10 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > I just wanted to report that today I finally got rid of my 25th (out of > 25) 2.2.6 CD's generously donated by WC. > There are now 25 offices/companies running FreeBSD as a front line server. > Some were ALOT harder to sway than others but with a little "Run this on a > main front line server cause im not taking no for an answer" and some > basics facts about our superior heritage and power all went basically > smooth. So we can now add another 25 companies to running FreeBSD on the > front lines in some capacity. Anyway just a quick update. Anyone else have > any stories about their luck with their CD's? > > Chris At a security conference I helped organise earlier this year, I was unable to satisfy everyone who wanted a copy of FreeBSD. Considering that we had only a little over a hundred attending, and Jordan had been kind enough to send me a 100 copies of 2.2.6, this was excellent to see. :) Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 22:01:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27948 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27943 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id AAA07278; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:02:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <11030.907385473@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Someone has been hired as a new VP of marketing to do exactly that, > and he's already done a substantial U.S. tour of distributors to hawk > our wares. I'd say this is a situation which can only improve. First let me apologize for the crack about 3rd VP at WC. Which was neither funny nor helpfull. Considering the last few posts about WC not doing enough. It shouldnt have been said. Everyone take a deep breath. I was going to try and say something to aleviate the usual long thread of "ADVOCACY" but I wont cause its all been said many times before. Jordan and greg and mike and david, etc.., etc.. do more for FreeBSD itself than ANY of us are or probably ever will. IMO anyway. They dont get paid to walk around bookstores and pimp FreeBSD. They get paid to work ON FreeBSD. And they do a damn good job or we wouldnt be discussing how to sell it more and harder. As far as WC is concerned, if they want to go above and beyond the call of duty (which includes selling, advertising by catalog, and HOSTING! FreeBSD) by becoming a MS sales machine for FreeBSD. BONUS! If they are happy and are already doing their best job and can't do more BONUS! Damn people they employee jordan and others, and pay CRL's bill for freebsd.org. And they are not even a FreeBSD company. They sell other stuff as well! Just how much blood do you want from these people? Brett's point of more publicity by WC is IMO just nutz. I have always believed that *IF* you as a person wanted to make the most impact for FreeBSD then jordan is correct. WRITE WRITE WRITE!!! Books, papers, FAQ's, HOW-TO's, HTML, articles for BSD News which is HOPEFULLY going to start to illicit a strong and solid front for the BSD's for once! Hey I'm just as lazy as the next guy when it comes to doing any written articles and the like for FreeBSD. If not more so. But I do live, sleep, eat and breathe FreeBSD for work. I just finished today pushing my 25th 2.2.6 CD donated by WC to a client. It wasn't easy converting 25 shops to use FreeBSD as a main line server in some capacity, but I did it. But if you want FreeBSD to get noticed you HAVE to give people something *TO* notice! They wont read about FreeBSD because no one is writing anything about it. BSD News may change that slightly but your going to need cnet articles published, and wired articles and tech web articles. The pen is truly mightier than the sword in this case. I plan on submitting a LONG article for BSD news. As soon as I can find something not to dumb to write about, or someone to interview like *USWEST* ahem US WEST anyone want to be interviewed? :) Linux has more dox online than my mom has cookbooks. So the simple fact is people are just going to have to write FreeBSD dox and stop asking WC to perform miracles. It just ISNT going to happen. WRITE till your hand falls of people or we are not going to get anywhere fast. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 2 22:57:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03805 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03800 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id BAA13734 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:58:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: An example piece of FreeBSD advoacy. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is the kind of thing that helps folks: http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd/ Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 01:12:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14474 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14469 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:12:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA10942; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:11:40 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:11:40 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just spotted this on slashdot.org. Let's start asking for a FreeBSD port. url: http://www.metrowerks.com/db/Press.qry?function=PR&rowid=165 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE OCTOBER 1, 1998 Press Contact: Stephanie L. Franks Metrowerks, Inc. (512) 873-4717 smorris@metrowerks.com Metrowerks Announces CodeWarrior Development Tools for Linux Austin, Texas-October 1, 1998-Metrowerks, Inc., (NASDAQ: MWKF, TSE/ME: MWK) announced today their intention to ship the award-winning CodeWarrior development tools to be hosted on the Linux operating system targeting desktop development on x86- and PowerPC-based personal computers. The CodeWarrior development tools for Linux will include a project manager, editors, browsers, compilers and debuggers and will support development for C/C++ and Java. Linux support will be included at no additional cost in Metrowerks' award-winning CodeWarrior Professional tools which currently support development for Windows and Mac OS. [snip] Cheers, Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 02:11:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17423 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17414 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id CAA26898; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:10:46 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id CAA06090; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:10:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: *** chop chop *** >We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: >should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he >should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on >Jordan, of course :-) Without getting as longwinded as I desire to I will simply register my support for Jordan and Greg. There is not just _one_ true market for the _one_ true way. FreeBSD will continue to advance if it continues to stay _it's own_ course. In keeping with the "Unix Way"(tm) it does what it does very well. I think the core has provided excellent direction. FreeBSD is top notch and will continue to be top notch. The project has advanced despite taller odds than it currently faces. FreeBSD is setting trends in industry that are not measured strictly by head count. I have never enjoyed a product more that I have enjoyed FreeBSD. Now let me cut to the chase. Mr. Glass incessant invective does more than bore me. It pisses me off. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 02:15:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17807 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17798 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id CAA12415; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Nicholas Charles Brawn cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would you buy one? I don't think I would to be honest - gcc and gdb does the job for me so far. We sould really get office type apps first before we go after IDE type stuff IMHO. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: >Just spotted this on slashdot.org. Let's start asking for a FreeBSD >port. > >url: http://www.metrowerks.com/db/Press.qry?function=PR&rowid=165 > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE OCTOBER 1, 1998 > > Press Contact: > Stephanie L. Franks > Metrowerks, Inc. > (512) 873-4717 > smorris@metrowerks.com > > Metrowerks Announces CodeWarrior Development Tools for Linux > > Austin, Texas-October 1, 1998-Metrowerks, Inc., (NASDAQ: MWKF, TSE/ME: > MWK) announced today their intention to ship the award-winning > CodeWarrior development tools to be hosted on the Linux operating > system targeting desktop development on x86- and PowerPC-based > personal computers. > The CodeWarrior development tools for Linux will include a project > manager, editors, browsers, compilers and debuggers and will support > development for C/C++ and Java. Linux support will be included at no > additional cost in Metrowerks' award-winning CodeWarrior Professional > tools which currently support development for Windows and Mac OS. >[snip] > >Cheers, >Nick > >-- >Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb >Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A >"When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 02:44:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19495 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19489 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA28796; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:43:06 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:43:06 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Would you buy one? I don't think I would to be honest - gcc and > gdb does the job for me so far. We sould really get office type apps first > before we go after IDE type stuff IMHO. > > -- Yan Welp, I agree with you there. However I know that in my course, Codewarrior was being pushed heavily for home-use by the students. If it's available for FreeBSD, I'd probably try it out. And either way, we may as well ask for a port, regardless of what application it is. The more applications that are available natively for FreeBSD, the more credibility we will have as a "production-grade" os. Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 04:48:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02088 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02083 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12468; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 01:02:51 EDT." Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 04:36:37 -0700 Message-ID: <12464.907414597@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Linux has more dox online than my mom has cookbooks. So the simple fact is > people are just going to have to write FreeBSD dox and stop asking WC to > perform miracles. It just ISNT going to happen. WRITE till your hand falls > of people or we are not going to get anywhere fast. Hear hear! Just to put this in perspective: Do you folks know when the last major "mainstream" magazine in the U.S. published an article on FreeBSD? I'll give you a hint: December 1996. That was when BYTE published my own article on the FreeBSD project and, since then, we've had a few single-page blurbs here and there (and the latest one-pager in PC Magazine this month was a very glad sight) but nothing approaching feature length. I have, in the same period of time, probably seen 30 feature length articles on Linux in the american trade press. Now, just for a little contrast, let's go to Japan and look at their mainstream press. Whooee! Articles about FreeBSD almost every month! 20 different books on the bookshelves, covering everything from "How to be an ISP with FreeBSD" to "FreeBSD kernel internals." Regular columns on FreeBSD in several of their Unix magazines. And you know what? In Japan, FreeBSD and Linux are neck-and-neck in terms of users. It's not the more usual "Linux kicks FreeBSD's butt" scenario there at all, and that's certainly not because Walnut Creek CDROM (or even Pacific HiTech) are doing amazingly good promotion in Japan. PHT is doing some promotion, yes, and for that they should be thanked, but it's really the user base in Japan which is making ALL the difference in terms of garnering market share. So, in a nutshell, Brett is completely wrong about this. It's not WC holding FreeBSD's progress back, it's apathy on the part of those who could be achieving everything that the Japanese FreeBSD users are achieving if they put the same amount of energy into writing all that stuff. I've been approached by literally every book and magazine publisher here in the U.S., each starving for books and articles on FreeBSD, and if I were into that (which I most emphatically am not) I could spend every waking hour of my life just writing articles and still not catch up with demand. I have, at various times, grabbed the shirt of anyone I could think of in the FreeBSD community with even an ounce of writing ability and offered them everything from whisky to women if they would just PLEASE WRITE SOMETHING. Do you hear me Frank? Do you hear me Brett? That's what this is all about, and the statistics from Japan don't lie. Press == Users. You don't need to go on a witch-hunt against the only company who's doing ANYTHING to promote FreeBSD at the moment, that being a foolish attack on one of your few allies, you simply need to help them and I think I've already made it more than clear just how to go about doing that. Flaming me or WC will not get articles written, only writing articles will accomplish that. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 04:52:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02526 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02516 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12510; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An example piece of FreeBSD advoacy. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 01:58:35 EDT." Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 04:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <12506.907414851@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is the kind of thing that helps folks: > > http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd/ No kidding! This guy has got to be the most organized diary-keeper I've ever seen. :-) Good stuff here - I'd love to see 10X more of this kind of thing. It's a textbook perfect example of a new user creating resources to help other new users and is exactly what we need. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 05:10:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03422 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03392 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01053; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:09:06 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19981003140906.A25075@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:09:06 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <10999.907385320@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org> <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:34:21PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:34:21PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > Your're very much entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, when > you go out on lists like that, many people will consider you to be a > typical FreeBSD user, which I think you are not. Both Jordan and I > have repeatedly stated that we think you are harming FreeBSD more than > you're helping it (though we both appreciate the good you do, as > Jordan shows above). > > We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: > should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he > should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on > Jordan, of course :-) I think the real problem here is a mismatch of motives. FreeBSD developers, from what I've seen, are hackers. They are motivated by doing the Right Thing(tm). They don't care if FreeBSD becomes the next dominant OS, they don't care if other people don't want to use it, provided it meets their own needs. I believe the same is true for Linux developers, especially Linus (see a recent interview with him on ZDTV). Then we have the advocates, who have hit on FreeBSD, found that it's a really good OS, and want to sing it's praises. And beat up anyone who doesn't agree with them. They want to show the world that there are better products than Windows, which is obvious. Linux has plenty of them too. I think Linux's success in recent weeks is as a result of neither factor. It is the result of an industry polarised by one monopolistic company. All of the players investing in Linux (via Red Hat and other companies), are doing it to save themselves. It's another set of battle lines. Notice that these investors are the main players in the OMG, in the Open Group, in Java, etc. They're desperately trying to find ways to stop the giant. And Linux is a good vehicle. It stands in direct competition to NT 5.0 in Microsoft's main market, which will be small business and internet servers. It's got a nice balance between power and usability. And it's not vaporware. An added benefit of Linux is that Microsoft can only loose by fighting it. If their marketing machine kicks in, then they will be the monopoly fighting the people. If they use the embrace and extend tactic (like Java), then they have to fight the GPL. And they can never undercut the price like they did with Netscape. Linux's downfall is that they have the ear of the hackers, while Microsoft has the ear of the managers. That's where the investment in Red Hat comes into play. Intel are spreading their bets. Turning back to FreeBSD. I think we should keep a low profile in the next 12 to 24 months. Encourage people to use Open Source, and help Linux to become big in the market. The Linux distributions are going to fracture and become incompatible, just like the whole Unix market. For the success of FreeBSD, NT 5.0 has to fail. After that it's just a case of pitching FreeBSD as a Open Source Unix, just like Red Hat Linux. Then we compete based on technical merit. Getting FreeBSD versions of products is easy when the vendor already has to do several Unix versions. Investment has little to do with technical merit. Witness Windows. With so much money and so many programmers, you would think they would have the best. I started using FreeBSD in '95 and it's now '98. Take a look at the combined release notes from 2.2 through to 3.0 over that period and you'll see what a small band of really brilliant hackers can do. To be the best we don't need investment. We need to be the 'gurus of the gurus' and so attract the best developers. Making big noises now is only going to win us enemies. Especially if we appear to be fighting Linux. Flame wars are only going to drive the hackers away. Think I overspent my 2c. -Jeremy -- | ----------------------------------------------------- --+-- "What a crazy world we live in, | we save the whales yet support abortion" - MIC | ----------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 06:26:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08569 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 06:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08562 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22771; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:25:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA27592; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:25:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981003152545.03322@follo.net> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:25:45 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <10999.907385320@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org> <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:34:21PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:34:21PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > Your're very much entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, when > you go out on lists like that, many people will consider you to be a > typical FreeBSD user, which I think you are not. Both Jordan and I > have repeatedly stated that we think you are harming FreeBSD more than > you're helping it (though we both appreciate the good you do, as > Jordan shows above). > > We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: > should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he > should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on > Jordan, of course :-) I think he should stop the "fire and brimstone" type messages. They result in him being privately commented about as 'that manic' (along with the main GPL-advocate Klaus Schilling). This is no good for his (or FreeBSD's) general credibility. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 07:14:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11778 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 07:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11767 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA21016; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:14:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810031414.KAA21016@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 2, 98 10:01:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a > lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to > make that investment. > > Now, what would you have us do? Sit back and let FreeBSD lose out to Linux? > Break away from Walnut Creek by publishing another version, thereby fragmenting > the market and, possibly, development efforts? Neither is a better alternative > than getting Walnut Creek off its duff, but the latter may be necessary if we > don't see things change soon. > > --Brett Brett's got a point. FreeBSD makes good code, has a good vendor and is a great product. I fought to get it used at Lucent over Linux and NT. FreeBSD won because I personally would stake my reputation on it. As far as the request to "write a book" for publicity. I've got a full time job and a legal department that would have to clear anything I write... and my four year old is now demanding she see dad occasionally. Six years ago I could've put 20 hours a week in on FreeBSD docs and gotten a book out after a while. I started one once. Greg beat me to it and did a great job. Realistically, I'd love to see a FreeBSD mention in Nemeth et. al. Anyone consider sending CD's to these authors (and others) to try to get in the next edition? Linux has an advantage, in that it's supporters are larger in number. Among them are a number of people who support it NOT because it's Linux or Unix -- but because it's GPL and ANTI Microsoft. We've been great at code -- but not great at evangelism because most of us have been around a while and we've seen the true coming of THE NEW COMPUTING RELIGION come and fail too many times. Linux has done very well at making itself a religion. FreeBSD isn't doing as well. We'd have to have a BSD consortium to get anywhere near the numbers they have -- or we need to do a better recruiting job at schools. I'd like to see Brett continue to be a pain in the @#$%^& because I feel we've gotten a bit complacent here with the Linux folks. I like Linux but I love FreeBSD. I'd also like to see this discussion continue calmly and rationally. This mailing list's getting like Usenet already. Calm down and let's discuss this. I tend to think that the core team's job should be to code -- we should have another group for publicity. I even liked the Linux journal's coverage of the Fry's protest of the Win98 launch by the Linux zealots. Boy did I feel that they are like my four year old. They'll keep screaming until they get their way. We do need some of that energy, though. I also would've liked to see the 3.0 come out with the full series of SCSI drivers... I've locked in my boxes at 2.2.7 for the time being until I can get a friend to CAMify the AIC and NCR 5380 drivers. (BTW -- it appears that the Trantor T160 uses an NCR53C400 varient which doesn't work on our drivers. My friend's got it up on NetBSD and I hope to have him look at it for FreeBSD.) I've got to cut this short... Got to take the four year old to soccer practice. Bill (soccer dad...) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 07:36:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13645 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 07:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13638 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13144; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 07:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:14:11 EDT." <199810031414.KAA21016@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 07:24:33 -0700 Message-ID: <13140.907424673@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd like to see Brett continue to be a pain in the @#$%^& because > I feel we've gotten a bit complacent here with the Linux folks. > I like Linux but I love FreeBSD. I wouldn't. Being a pain in the ass doesn't help, just as me calling you on the phone every day and saying "I don't care about the kids, Bill, just write the damn book!" would be a pointless pain in the rear as well. It wouldn't take you long at all, in fact, to dismiss me as a pest with a poor grasp of the time constraints people face, at which point I would simply go "Aha! Now you know how we feel about Brett!" Put the shoe on the other foot and think about it a little. Why should you be the only person permitted to cite time constraints as an excuse? We clearly don't get to do that if you accept the substance of Brett's arguments, so fair is fair. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 09:35:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22627 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22621 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA18638; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:34:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810031634.MAA18638@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <10999.907385320@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 2, 98 08:28:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan-- Your response to Brett here is RIGHT ON. However, we've got to do better at getting out the word. > > If you're unwilling to make the obvious and trivial mental connections > > required to comprehend the information I presented in my message, it's > > not MY problem. > > It's interesting that you should say something like this, because I > myself was just puzzling over the great disparity between your recent > postings on the mailing lists (or your usenet contributions) and your > print advocacy. When you're writing for the likes of Sm@rt Reseller, > for example, you seem to understand just fine where the right balance > between passion and logic lies and you generally make a pretty > convincing argument which manages both to be readable and to convey > the information you're trying to impart to the reader. As a body of > communication, what you've done for print journalism has been just fine > and is to be commended. > > When it's time to go home to your PC, however, you apparently drop > your logic cap into a desk drawer and lock the door, off to give the > more passionate side of your nature a turn in the uninhibited disco > lights of various public mailing lists. Unsubstantiated claims and > general invective fly like emotional harpoons, and you exhibit none of > the usual care which distinguishes your press work in actually trying > convince the reader through meaningful argument. It's all "I'm mad as > hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" [with apologies to > "Network"]. > > Such a presentation style is as unfortunate as it is ineffective, and > if you're trying to "sell" any idea to a bunch of mailing list readers > it's truly no different than trying to sell the readers of Sm@rt > Reseller on something (like FreeBSD). In both cases you have a > semi-skeptical audience who's ready to be won over by convincing > argument, and someone just mindlessly venting his spleen over > something is not likely to fill the bill unless they're also capable > of being highly amusing about it (e.g. they're Dennis Miller, Dave > Barry or P.J. O'Rourke). > > As a journalist, you also already know full well that it's part of > every communicator's responsibility to communicate *effectively*, not > to immediately blame the audience for their inability to convey an > argument, and for every audience there is also an appropriate style. > If you're standing in front of 10,000 brownshirts at a Nurenberg > rally, for example, then it's probably a reasonable thing to shout > passionately and maybe spray a little spittle from time to time. If > you're addressing the International Brotherhood of Accountants, on the > other hand, then I don't think that sort of presentation style would > go over all that well. A goofy example, to be sure, but I think the > point remains: If it's your intention to communicate anything more > substantive than "if you see one of my messages, hit delete to avoid > the heat" then I'd say that you are failing to do so. Given that I > already know you're more than capable of communicating more > effectively than this, it is also a highly avoidable failure. > > I am willing to be convinced that we can do better with the resources > currently available, but not by arguments which esteem passion over > logic. > > - Jordan +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 10:46:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00830 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00815 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA20883; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id RAA14844; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:46:16 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981003104616.C14796@nuxi.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:46:16 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 02:14:39AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-BETA Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We sould really get office type apps first before we go after IDE type > stuff IMHO. Funny you mention it. Check out http://www.cdrom.com (at bottom of page) Looks like somebody's been busy. :-) -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 11:36:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08047 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07941 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from remote.my.domain (root@host-209-214-69-68.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.69.68]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14609 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by remote.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18700; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810031834.OAA18700@remote.my.domain> To: FreeBSD advocacy list , wghicks@remote.my.domain Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 13:34:21 +0930." <19981003133421.A2176@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:34:47 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [snips] > We could be wrong. Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages: > should he continue, or should he stop? If the consensus is that he > should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on > Jordan, of course :-) [shrug] It takes all types to make the world go 'round. Linux doesn't seem to be harmed at all by overly passionate advocacy. I'll have to agree with Wes Peters. We need to convice more managers that FreeBSD is viable for helping them solve real world problems. The mainstream computing press isn't really that impressive, or unbiased. We need to seek out new venues. Personally, I am very grateful for Walnut Creek's assistance to the FreeBSD project. Almost certainly, FreeBSD would not have advanced to its current form without WC. It might be easy to criticize, but then again, try walking a mile in Jordan's shoes. It won't be easy. Perhaps we could start a contribution fund for additional marketing? Where do I send my $$$'s? Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 12:37:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18251 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18244 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14471; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jerry Hicks cc: FreeBSD advocacy list , wghicks@remote.my.domain Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:34:47 EDT." <199810031834.OAA18700@remote.my.domain> Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 12:24:32 -0700 Message-ID: <14468.907442672@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Perhaps we could start a contribution fund for additional marketing? Where > do I send my $$$'s? FreeBSD, Inc. It's in the handbook and indeed, were I to get enough money to retain a marketing firm in addition to WC's own investment, I certainly will! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 13:15:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23172 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23151; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA03712; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:14:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810032014.QAA03712@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Congrats on the FreeBSD coverage in ;login: To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13547.907434140@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 3, 98 10:02:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Congrats to all the FreeBSD'ers who managed to get such great coverage in ;login. Just got the Oct. 1998 issue and I love it. Coverage included the the "Source Code Unix on the PC" article on the FreeBSD ports system, an op-Ed piece by Jordan Hubbard (who will chair the FREENIX track in '99)... Additional mentions were made of Poul-Henning Kamp's papers about timecounters and NTP, Luigi Rizzo's work with Dummynet and Forward Error Correction (and his FreeBSD palmtop--which, according to ;login: left him with the one major audience question -- "Where can I get one of those?" Branson Matheson's work on FreeBSD console servers got a nice write up. Peter Salus mentioned the *BSD's nicely in his Free Stuff article. I learned two things from the issue. 1. Walnut Creek could probably sell a ton of FreeBSD palmtops 8-) 2. I've got to find a way to get to LISA in Boston this year. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 13:37:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26721 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26685; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA13510; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:36:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810032036.QAA13510@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981003103704.040e5200@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 3, 98 10:38:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > >Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like > >http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, > > >From what I can see, NetMAX could be a worthy alternative but is priced > quite high. It's tough to tell whether it would make it at a $500 > price point. > > --Brett If they do decent support and Netware access they'd have a shot. If it's just IP and Appletalk there's plenty of freeware from FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD/OpenBSD that'd work. The trick is having the code to allow it to work in the Netware 4 or Netware 3 environment. These guys are looking for platforms that might have more of a lifespan than Netware 3 or 4 and they're unsure about going to Netware 5. Most are now trying NT. There's a lot of Oracle on netware out there that's looking for a home on either NT or Unix. The same holds true with OS/2 Server... A lot of them run Notes and apps like Oracle or DB/2. For file services just about anything will work with them. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 15:52:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13082 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13069 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id PAA07478; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "David O'Brien" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux In-Reply-To: <19981003104616.C14796@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmm.. I am ordering one right now. The question I have though is: why there is not announcement or link on www.freebsd.org? I think I'll mail www@ .. thanks, -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, David O'Brien wrote: >> We sould really get office type apps first before we go after IDE type >> stuff IMHO. > >Funny you mention it. Check out http://www.cdrom.com (at bottom of page) >Looks like somebody's been busy. :-) > >-- >-- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 16:01:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15120 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15025; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA21703; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id XAA23683; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:00:51 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981003160051.A23409@nuxi.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:00:51 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: webmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: More commerial support for FreeBSD - programming IDE Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete programming environment, which supports you and your team writing, managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects. WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms. The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use. They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 16:59:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23212 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23203 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA18204; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:59:13 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:59:13 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: "David O'Brien" cc: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux In-Reply-To: <19981003104616.C14796@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, David O'Brien wrote: > > We sould really get office type apps first before we go after IDE type > > stuff IMHO. > > Funny you mention it. Check out http://www.cdrom.com (at bottom of page) > Looks like somebody's been busy. :-) > W00p!@%^&# Now I just wish I had that much spare cash free to buy it. :) > -- > -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 17:06:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24393 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24365; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA19401; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981003180450.040eb740@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 18:05:34 -0600 To: obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More commerial support for FreeBSD - programming IDE Cc: webmaster@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981003160051.A23409@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Looks good! Unfortunately, it appears that the version number of the FreeBSD version is behind that of the Linux x86 version. I wonder why? --Brett At 04:00 PM 10/3/98 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment >http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT > >WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for >Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel >and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in >part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several >compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete >programming environment, which supports you and your team writing, >managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects. >WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms. >The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use. > > >They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD. > >-- >-- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 17:11:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25271 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vedanix.welearn.com.au (vedanix.welearn.com.au [203.35.200.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25241; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@vedanix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by vedanix.welearn.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06148; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:14:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Message-ID: <19981004101438.39085@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:14:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Ray Seals , Freebsd-Advocacy Cc: FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On-line Help Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Ray Seals , Freebsd-Advocacy , FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000d01bdec7e$b9fde2e0$1a1e10ac@rseals.midwestis.com> <19981001114527.E603@freebie.lemis.com> <19981002125251.54527@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19981002125251.54527@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 12:52:52PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 12:52:52PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Perhaps we technically should do the conversions as this - directly as > FreeBSD ports, where people can just install them (and thus get them > in /usr/local/share/doc/HOWTO/ or somesuch). That way, there is at > least a structure in place for keeping them up to date - and there is > precedence for pure documentation port (e.g, the Emacs Lisp manual). Yes, structure is more important than many realise. The success of the Linux HOWTO project seems to be due to three things that I can see: 1 Many users with a large amount of boypower 2 A tight, well known structure and image 3 Attitudes in the Linux community that motivate quality and quantity, these attitudes being created by the structure. We can't afford to look at the desired outcome and stab straight at it. Put the right stuff underneath and it'll happen and continue to happen. Take a look at their HOWTO web site to see how they come across. Talk to Linux users about why they wrote a HOWTO. Look at what's required before a HOWTO will be accepted. Writing these things is both an automatic duty of Linuxhood and a high status privilege (if it is accepted), Some see it as a contest to become the famous writer of something nobody else has been able to cover. Compare that with the way we beg and cajole for documents. I don't claim to have all the answers for us, but I do know that it needs a lot of planning and new attitudes to make it a success. Any HOWTO project we set up will need to be worthy of respect itself, the kind of respect that rubs off, before volunteers will flock to it. Our support efforts are good and improving, and HOWTOs will help a lot there, but training is another story. I'd like to see the same planning and effort put into more tutorials. But people expect HOWTOs and they're easier to write. Eventually we'll need both, so we might as well start with the HOWTOs. On my list of round tuits is a document to help technical heads write FreeBSD tutorials, since it requires two mutually exclusive skill sets. If it ever gets that far, I'll be looking for helpers well up on the principles of adult education who don't necessarily know a lot about FreeBSD. Then we might have something indispensable for the suits and home users that no other OS has offered. Later still, an extension of this could be a full online competency based learning centre, employing the newfangled online learning toys that people pay huge sums for to crash under NT, but doing it all with FreeBSD freebies. Training is now seen as the major business cost associated with change, more important than the cost of software. Meanwhile home users run around looking for a foothold. We haven't even begun to take a serious look at the training needs. Twelve months from now its significance will suddenly become more apparent, when we have more to offer the office users. Whether it's all volunteer effort or I do something myself and make a quick buck doesn't matter too much. Sew up the training angle in any form and we'll make both NT and Linux look like intolerably expensive alternatives. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 18:09:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01279 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01272 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from k.stevenson@louisville.edu) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (ktstev01@homer.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17560 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:09:05 -0400 Received: (from ktstev01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23029 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981003210905.A22040@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:09:05 -0400 From: Keith Stevenson To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 12:21:03AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I gave out the 50 Jordan sent to me within a month. About half of them ended up in the hands of the CS faculty at the Speed Scientific School here at the University of Louisville. The other half I gave out at a LUG (Linux Users Group) meeting! The local Linux group asked me to give a presentation on basic computer and network security. During the Q&A period after the talk someone asked me what Linux distribution I used. Needless to say I took advantage of the opportunity! Since then I've helped several LUG members with their FreeBSD installs. Most of them seem to like it a lot. Hats off to Jordan and Walnut Creek for making the moment possible! Regards, --Keith-- -- Keith Stevenson System Programmer - Data Center Services - University of Louisville k.stevenson@louisville.edu PGP key fingerprint = 4B 29 A8 95 A8 82 EA A2 29 CE 68 DE FC EE B6 A0 On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 12:21:03AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > I just wanted to report that today I finally got rid of my 25th (out of > 25) 2.2.6 CD's generously donated by WC. > There are now 25 offices/companies running FreeBSD as a front line server. > Some were ALOT harder to sway than others but with a little "Run this on a > main front line server cause im not taking no for an answer" and some > basics facts about our superior heritage and power all went basically > smooth. So we can now add another 25 companies to running FreeBSD on the > front lines in some capacity. Anyway just a quick update. Anyone else have > any stories about their luck with their CD's? > > Chris > > -- > "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is > driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't > tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters > > ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 > -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 19:01:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09689 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:01:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09662 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24901; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:00:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd024877; Sat Oct 3 19:00:28 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18605; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:00:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810040200.TAA18605@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: your mail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 02:00:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <12464.907414597@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 3, 98 04:36:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just to put this in perspective: Do you folks know when the last major > "mainstream" magazine in the U.S. published an article on FreeBSD? > I'll give you a hint: December 1996. That was when BYTE published my > own article on the FreeBSD project and, since then, we've had a few > single-page blurbs here and there (and the latest one-pager in PC > Magazine this month was a very glad sight) but nothing approaching > feature length. I have, in the same period of time, probably seen 30 > feature length articles on Linux in the american trade press. I saw two articles by SEF more recent than that, in Dr. Dobb's Journal. I have also seen at least 7 articles in various publications. Most of them by one "Brett Glass". In the August 1998 ";login", the USENIX Association's magazine, there is a 5 page article by Bob Gray entitled "Loading Source Code UNIX on the PC". While it mentions the other OpenSource OS's, it concentrates and gives examples solely for FreeBSD. The author promises a followup article on package management. > Now, just for a little contrast, let's go to Japan and look at their > mainstream press. Whooee! Articles about FreeBSD almost every month! > 20 different books on the bookshelves, covering everything from "How > to be an ISP with FreeBSD" to "FreeBSD kernel internals." Regular > columns on FreeBSD in several of their Unix magazines. And you know > what? In Japan, FreeBSD and Linux are neck-and-neck in terms of > users. It's not the more usual "Linux kicks FreeBSD's butt" scenario > there at all, and that's certainly not because Walnut Creek CDROM (or > even Pacific HiTech) are doing amazingly good promotion in Japan. PHT > is doing some promotion, yes, and for that they should be thanked, but > it's really the user base in Japan which is making ALL the difference > in terms of garnering market share. I believe FreeBSD supported the NEC PC98 and the DOSV machines before or at the same time as Linux did. There are also a large number of corporations who, for obvious reasons, use FreeBSD as the basis of products. The Japanese "Firepower" PowerPC comes with a BSD 4.4 source port that boots on the hardware, with pieces from FreeBSD, though they refused to sell me one in the US. Also, do not forget the WIDE project. Though FreeBSD has consistently failed to integrate their code (starting with their IPv6 and DHCP implementations, and most recently, with the failure to integrate their IPSEC implementation), nevertheless, there is a large academic following for BSD in general and FreeBSD in particular. > Do you hear me Frank? Do you hear me Brett? That's what this is all > about, and the statistics from Japan don't lie. Press == Users. I think you are comparing two exponential curves. In Japan, they started at the same time; in the US, they didn't. It's like Gallant, who starts saving for his retirement at 22, and Goofus, who waits until he's in his 30's, and starts feeling old. In the US, FreeBSD is Goofus. > don't need to go on a witch-hunt against the only company who's doing > ANYTHING to promote FreeBSD at the moment, that being a foolish attack Certainly, a witch-hunt is unproductive. But the majority of FreeBSD press is originating with Brett Glass and people like him. You don't get articles out of people who aren't so willing to back something that they make themselves a target (which is one of the reasons why I haven't written articles; the other is that what I write about will exist only on my machines and in the article, so why bother, if it's not going to get used by people; you can't raise the bar unless you can get people to agree that what you are raising is, in fact, a bar at all...). On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to try and raise FreeBSD's visibility within a company that sells both Linux and FreeBSD, runs their servers on FreeBSD, but gives Linux front-page billing on their catalog covers. A catalog cover is press of a sort, as well. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 19:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11284 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles144.castles.com [208.214.165.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10991; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00823; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810040213.TAA00823@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: obrien@NUXI.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More commerial support for FreeBSD - programming IDE In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 16:00:51 PDT." <19981003160051.A23409@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:13:46 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment > http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT > > WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for > Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel > and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in > part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several > compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete > programming environment, which supports you and your team writing, > managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects. > WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms. > The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use. > > > They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD. Hmm, I wonder if they tested them? You need to create another symbolic link (they have an 'a' on the end of one of the shared library names). I don't like the editor (far too stupid for my tastes), but this looks pretty neat. Another nice environment (less integrated) is Visual SlickEdit, which runs under Linux emulation. (http://www.slickedit.com). You need to brand the binaries because everything is static, although I have suggested to them that branding the binaries out of the box would be a good idea (installation is difficult without this). They weren't entirely opposed to the idea. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 19:22:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13862 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13780 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16038; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 04 Oct 1998 02:00:24 -0000." <199810040200.TAA18605@usr06.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:21:07 -0700 Message-ID: <16034.907467667@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I saw two articles by SEF more recent than that, in Dr. Dobb's > Journal. DDJ is not what I consider "mainstream" in the same sense that I consider the more, erm, "market driven" publications (which hardly ever mention us :) "mainstream." It's a great techie magazine, don't get me wrong, and I was perfectly happy to see SEF publish his two articles in it (I even got him extra cash for doing it), but it's not what I was talking about. > I have also seen at least 7 articles in various publications. As have I - I get a lot of them sent to me. Of all I've seen, however, the only mention which would fit my definition of mainstream press penetration is the PC Magazine article this month (FreeBSD 2.2.7, pp 227. :) which really, for me at least, marked a final re-entrance of FreeBSD into this realm after a long absence. Can't say how much more of it I'm going to see, but it was nice to see it all the same. > In the August 1998 ";login", the USENIX Association's magazine, More than just August - he's been running a series for at least the last 5 issues. I review most of them before they run, time permitting. > Also, do not forget the WIDE project. > > Though FreeBSD has consistently failed to integrate their code > (starting with their IPv6 and DHCP implementations, and most > recently, with the failure to integrate their IPSEC implementation), > nevertheless, there is a large academic following for BSD in general > and FreeBSD in particular. Don't start digging the grave on that yet. We haven't said we *weren't* going to commit their code either, and that's at least a mark of differentiation between us and the other *BSDs which have already pretty much cast their votes. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 20:16:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23436 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23315 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA29099; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:15:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810040315.XAA29099@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: On-line Help To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981004101438.39085@welearn.com.au> from "Sue Blake" at Oct 4, 98 10:14:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Our support efforts are good and improving, and HOWTOs will help a lot > there, but training is another story. I'd like to see the same planning > and effort put into more tutorials. But people expect HOWTOs and they're > easier to write. Eventually we'll need both, so we might as well start > with the HOWTOs. > > > Training is now seen as the major business cost associated with change, > more important than the cost of software. Meanwhile home users run > around looking for a foothold. We haven't even begun to take a serious > look at the training needs. Twelve months from now its significance will > suddenly become more apparent, when we have more to offer the office > users. Whether it's all volunteer effort or I do something myself and > make a quick buck doesn't matter too much. Sew up the training angle in > any form and we'll make both NT and Linux look like intolerably > expensive alternatives. > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- Since I used to do training courses for a formerly fairly large Unix vendor... Does anyone think there's enough demand for Free/Net/OpenBSD/Linux sysadmin training... Would ISP's and corporations shell out money for this. (I see a nice niche business, if they will -- but I don't think the demand's there yet... or Learning Tree and Taos Mountain would be doing it...) Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 20:20:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24088 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:20:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24006 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA00171; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:19:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810040319.XAA00171@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: your mail To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810040200.TAA18605@usr06.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 4, 98 02:00:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to try and raise FreeBSD's > visibility within a company that sells both Linux and FreeBSD, runs > their servers on FreeBSD, but gives Linux front-page billing on > their catalog covers. A catalog cover is press of a sort, as well. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org It shows where the money is... If the folks selling at my local computer shows had 1 FreeBSD per 10 WC Slackware I'd be ecstatic. (That's not even mentioning the 30 Red Hat.) One question I'd like to see in the catalog is: Linux or FreeBSD...? WC depends on FreeBSD for it's servers. Do you? FreeBSD -- Mission Critical and Internet Proven: Right Out of the box. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 20:50:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28366 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (COPLAND.CODA.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.222.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28259 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04078; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:48:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: "David O'Brien" cc: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux In-Reply-To: <19981003104616.C14796@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David, Will there be an evaluation version we can try out? I'd certainly spring $100 for a nice office suite, but last time I tried Applixware (a few versions ago), I really didn't like the interface much. A bit win3.1-ish for me. I anticipate that in two major versions it has changed significantly, however? On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, David O'Brien wrote: > > We sould really get office type apps first before we go after IDE type > > stuff IMHO. > > Funny you mention it. Check out http://www.cdrom.com (at bottom of page) > Looks like somebody's been busy. :-) > > -- > -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 3 23:02:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16680 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16623 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:01:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id XAA23160; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19981003230130.B23102@nuxi.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:01:30 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Robert Watson Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Metrowerks releases Codewarrior for Linux Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19981003104616.C14796@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Robert Watson on Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 11:48:39PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > David, > Will there be an evaluation version we can try out? I'd certainly spring No clue. I've played with what ever version came with the fancy RH Linux last summer. Guess it's time for a little email to info@cdrom.com. :-) -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message