From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Oct 11 01:19:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01497 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01484 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14842; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:19:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:19:15 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: adjkerntz In-Reply-To: <199810110434.VAA08090@burka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > Is it save to re-enable it for alpha? I haven't got around to trying it yet. The kernel support should be there now but it is untested. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Oct 12 13:06:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29107 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29096 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17693; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:06:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd017607; Mon Oct 12 13:05:57 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21061; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:05:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810122005.NAA21061@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: interesting quote from http://cnls.lanl.gov/avalon/FAQ.html#A1end To: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:05:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, tls@rek.tjls.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <87ww695oe4.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> from "Chris G. Demetriou" at Oct 9, 98 04:03:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > All the new alpha hardware, maybe. There exist systems (now old, but > some still perform pretty well) for which no ARC ever was (or really > could be 8-) made. [ ... ] > If you want a PC... buy a PC. If you want an Alpha, with all of its > benefits, you want either OSF or VMS PALcode. There's an idea... do Alpha's come with th VMS PALcode? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Oct 12 13:08:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29502 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29492 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28709; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:08:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028650; Mon Oct 12 13:08:28 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21219; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:08:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810122008.NAA21219@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: PALcode To: seifert@sequent.com (David Seifert) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:08:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810092325.QAA07824@eng4.sequent.com> from "David Seifert" at Oct 9, 98 04:25:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Isn't this more of a case of us running a UNIX that isn't ARC PALcode > > friendly? > > No. > > The PALcode customises the machine for a particular OS. > That is the whole point of the PALcode. > There is PALcode for Unix, PALcode for VMS, and PALcode for NT. I understand that. I also understand that some PALcode is more equal than others, in terms of coming for free with the hardware. I'm not married to ARC; I'd be just as happy with any other PALcode that spanned the entire product line and didn't cost extra to obtain. Perhaps the VMS PAL code would be a good fit, since VMS requires 4 protection domains, and we seem to run fine on x86, which also provides 4 protection domains. > Similar deal with the console software. > SRM for VMS and Unix, ARC or AlphaBIOS for NT. > > ARC cannot read a BSD disklabel. I'm also not married to BSD disklabels. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Oct 12 16:25:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08801 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:25:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08792 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00521; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810122330.QAA00521@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert cc: seifert@sequent.com (David Seifert), alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:08:26 -0000." <199810122008.NAA21219@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:30:05 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Similar deal with the console software. > > SRM for VMS and Unix, ARC or AlphaBIOS for NT. > > > > ARC cannot read a BSD disklabel. > > I'm also not married to BSD disklabels. Fortunately, neither are we. There'll be no problems booting off a disk sliced up for ARC, nor slicing it in the first place. It'll also be a great argument for the /boot concept, as /boot will probably be the FAT boot filesystem that ARC seems to need. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 10:37:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21407 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ascetic.portal.ca (ascetic.portal.ca [206.87.139.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21400 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by ascetic.portal.ca (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08988; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ascetic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: David Seifert , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810122008.NAA21219@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > I'm not married to ARC; I'd be just as happy with any other PALcode > that spanned the entire product line and didn't cost extra to obtain. > Perhaps the VMS PAL code would be a good fit.... Terry, I really think you should grab a copy of the _Alpha AXP Architecture Reference Manual_ and look at the PALcode descriptions to see what it does. I wouldn't care to make a definitive comment one way or the other on the feasibility of something like this, but the extent to which the PALcode you use affects your OS internal structures and works is surprisingly large. PALcode covers not only how you do your VM structure, but your interrupt and process structures as well. (The actual context switch between two processes is performed by PALcode, not OS code, for example.) cjs -- Curt Sampson 604-257-9400 De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil. Any opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. The most widely ported operating system in the world: http://www.netbsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 10:38:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21523 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ascetic.portal.ca (ascetic.portal.ca [206.87.139.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21516 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by ascetic.portal.ca (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09004; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ascetic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting quote from http://cnls.lanl.gov/avalon/FAQ.html#A1 end In-Reply-To: <199810122005.NAA21061@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > There's an idea... do Alpha's come with th VMS PALcode? No. VMS PALcode and DU PALcode always appear to be together in the SRM console. cjs -- Curt Sampson 604-257-9400 De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil. Any opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. The most widely ported operating system in the world: http://www.netbsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 14:25:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28746 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:25:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu [129.186.185.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28715 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu) Received: from friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA04010 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:25:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu) Message-Id: <199810132125.QAA04010@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: kernel traps on boot.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:25:07 -0500 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I seem to be having quite a bit of trouble with booting kernels in the last couple of days. It has almost looked random. Currently I have 2 boxes, with identical kernels and boot blocks and one of them simply fails to boot. :( I get the following: 1978288+179496 [32859+1492+246528+139953] Entering /kernel at 0xfffffc0000320500... [ preserving 425904 bytes of kernel symbol table ] Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-BETA #0: Tue Oct 13 14:46:15 CDT 1998 ccsanady@ariel.scl.ameslab.gov:/usr/src/sys/compile/ARIEL EB164 Digital AlphaPC 164LX 533 MHz, 531MHz 8192 byte page size, 1 processor. real memory = 534929408 (522392K bytes) avail memory = 516169728 (504072K bytes) fatal kernel trap: trap entry = 0x4 (unaligned access fault) a0 = 0x2fe00000c3e00003 a1 = 0x28 a2 = 0x1 pc = 0xfffffc0000364640 ra = 0xfffffc0000484358 curproc = 0 ddbprinttrap from 0xfffffc0000364640 ddbprinttrap(0x2fe00000c3e00003, 0x28, 0x1, 0x4) panic: trap panic Stopped at Debugger+0x2c: ldq ra,0(sp) <0xfffffc000057bb58> db> trace Debugger() at Debugger+0x2c panic() at panic+0xf4 trap() at trap+0x658 XentUna() at XentUna+0x20 parse_module_symbols() at parse_module_symbols+0x38 (null)() at 0x6 db> Regardless, should a alignment trap cause the machine to die? I think in NetBSD, they just print it to the console. Has anyone else noticed similar behavior? Not being able to reliably build a kernel makes it really hard to get things done. I finally have my GNIC II driver mostly working on the alpha too. Oh well.. I think it's a bit late for 3.0 anyways. Chris Csanady To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 15:43:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12263 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12253 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:43:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00726; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA19000; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:42:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:42:52 -0400 (EDT) To: Chris Csanady Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-Reply-To: <199810132125.QAA04010@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> References: <199810132125.QAA04010@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13859.54457.970518.944699@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Csanady writes: > Regardless, should a alignment trap cause the machine to die? I Yes, as the comment in trap.c says: any unaligned access in the kernel is a bug. > think in NetBSD, they just print it to the console. Has anyone Last I looked, NetBSD panics. Digital UNIX fixes up unaligned accesses in versions prior to 4.0d. > else noticed similar behavior? Yes, although much, much later. Its hitting me at the point of starting init. I'd thought that it was something of mine own doing -- I'm working on OSF/1 binary compatibility & have locally relocated the user stack to get it out of /compat/osf1/sbin/loader's way. I'm glad somebody without my local changes is also having the similar problems. What's at the faulting pc? > Not being able to reliably build a kernel makes it really hard > to get things done. I finally have my GNIC II driver mostly To hack around it, just make a minor change to trap.c.. Here's a hand generated diff, complete with whitespace.. *************** *** 219,225 **** * signalling is appropriate (based on system-wide * and per-process unaligned-access-handling flags). */ ! if (user) { if ((i = unaligned_fixup(a0, a1, a2, p)) == 0) goto out; --- 225,231 ---- * signalling is appropriate (based on system-wide * and per-process unaligned-access-handling flags). */ ! if (1 || user) { if ((i = unaligned_fixup(a0, a1, a2, p)) == 0) goto out; Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 17:22:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29697 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29533 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25196; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:21:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025179; Tue Oct 13 17:21:41 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19183; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:21:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810140021.RAA19183@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: PALcode To: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:21:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, seifert@sequent.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Curt Sampson" at Oct 13, 98 10:36:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'm not married to ARC; I'd be just as happy with any other PALcode > > that spanned the entire product line and didn't cost extra to obtain. > > Perhaps the VMS PAL code would be a good fit.... > > Terry, I really think you should grab a copy of the _Alpha AXP > Architecture Reference Manual_ and look at the PALcode descriptions > to see what it does. I wouldn't care to make a definitive comment > one way or the other on the feasibility of something like this, > but the extent to which the PALcode you use affects your OS internal > structures and works is surprisingly large. PALcode covers not only > how you do your VM structure, but your interrupt and process > structures as well. (The actual context switch between two processes > is performed by PALcode, not OS code, for example.) Thanks, but I have copies of the relevent architecture manuals, and have read the ARC link that was poseted (by Warner?) recently, as well. I'm also familiar with the theory of writable control stores, since one of my primary fields of study was solid state physics. The point which I was trying to make is that anything that spans the entire hardware line by default is going to be a better basis for an OS that tries to span the entire hardware line than anything that doesn't. Yeah, I know that certain features make it easier to implement a UNIX-like VM system, but if you can run across all of the hardware, that's maybe more important. CGD's point about this maybe not being important really stands or falls based on what hardware is going to be commonly available, and what PLA code comes loaded. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 17:56:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05270 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ascetic.portal.ca (ascetic.portal.ca [206.87.139.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05195 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by ascetic.portal.ca (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15759; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ascetic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:54:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: seifert@sequent.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810140021.RAA19183@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > The point which I was trying to make is that anything that spans the > entire hardware line by default is going to be a better basis for > an OS that tries to span the entire hardware line than anything > that doesn't. It depends on what you want the OS to look like. If you don't mind it looking nothing like Unix, then yes, you're correct. However, I don't believe that that is an option in the FreeBSD case. > Yeah, I know that certain features make it easier to implement a > UNIX-like VM system, but if you can run across all of the hardware, > that's maybe more important. As I said, this is not just VM system. This is also your process structure, which affects things like what you can and can't do in a context switch, and interrupt structure, affecting what you may do in your device drivers and how you do locking of data structures in the kernel. It appears to me that you've not read the Alpha Architecture Manual, since this has nothing to do with writable control stores, and you don't seem to realise just what sort of conditions the VMS or ARC PALcode put on your kernel. cjs -- Curt Sampson 604-257-9400 De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil. Any opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. The most widely ported operating system in the world: http://www.netbsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 18:35:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11688 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd.scds.com (jseger.shore.net [204.167.102.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11683 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jseger@jseger.scds.com) Received: from jseger.scds.com (localhost.scds.com [127.0.0.1]) by freebsd.scds.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02895 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:35:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jseger@jseger.scds.com) Message-Id: <199810140135.VAA02895@freebsd.scds.com> To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:35:04 -0400 From: "Justin M. Seger" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys. Do we have a procedure to install the latest binary snapshot on an AlphaStation 200? I have a NetBSD boot disk, and the latest FreeBSD alpha snapshot. Any further instructions would be appreciated. Thanks a lot, -Justin Seger- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 18:41:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12743 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12728 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rhuff@cybercom.net) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (rhuff@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08447 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rhuff@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11124; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:41:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Huff Message-Id: <199810140141.VAA11124@shell1.cybercom.net> To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810140021.RAA19183@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > CGD's point about this maybe not being important really stands or > falls based on what hardware is going to be commonly available, > and what PLA code comes loaded. As someone whose only stake is as a (very) interested potential customer ... I would accept - in fact, would prefer - moderate limitations on the hardware base if it means better internal dynamics (and by extension less grief in developing the initial and subsequent kernels, etc.). Robert Huff To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 19:16:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18681 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from po7.andrew.cmu.edu (PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18671 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id WAA28368; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samtheeagle.ww.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samtheeagle.ww.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.samtheeagle.ww.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.samtheeagle.ww.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:15:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: "Justin M. Seger" , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? In-Reply-To: <199810140135.VAA02895@freebsd.scds.com> References: <199810140135.VAA02895@freebsd.scds.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from mail: 13-Oct-98 Steps to install on an Alph.. by "Justin M. Seger"@freebs >Hi guys. Do we have a procedure to install the latest binary snapshot on an >AlphaStation 200? I have a NetBSD boot disk, and the latest FreeBSD alpha >snapshot. Any further instructions would be appreciated. Well, lets start off by saying that if you have a ZXLp-E card, it'll take a bit before you'll get a working console on FreeBSD. If you have such a video card, pull it out and put it somewhere warm and safe, actually, I havn't tried to check if it's presence crashes a machine without sc0 enabled. You will have to have an sc0 disabled kernel anyway for it to finish booting without any graphics card. If you don't have such a graphics card, just ignore me ;) Otherwise, to install: Boot the NetBSD disk, it has a rather simple install procedure, copy down your drive cyl/head/sector numbers as detected by the kernel and feed it to the install script which will newfs your drive, then you're dropped into a shell to continue installation. grab a FreeBSD kernel, either from dfr or msmith's homedirectories on www.freebsd.org. ~dfr has the sc0 enabled kernel and msmith has the sc0-disabled kernel. Of course note that if you have the sc0-disabled kernel, you're gonig to be doing all of this from a serial console. get the binrary distribs, conviently located at ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/development/alpha, Note that the netbsd bootloaders look for the kernel in /netbsd I havn't had the courage to modify my bootblocks yet (anyone know if it's fully implemented?) since i've seen lots of activity in that area. So, if you're like me or even if you aren't, keep a copy of the kernle in /netbsd Also, before rebooting, edit /etc/fstab, NetBSD calls its filesystems ffs while FreeBSD calls it ufs, this will confuse mount (and confused me) to no end. I think that wraps up my experience. I'm trying to get an ZXLp driver put together and will at least be able to begin after I finish a bad weeks' worth of work and midterms. From teh looks of things a proper Alpha install disk will be available soon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 19:47:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21565 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21556 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22604; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Justin M. Seger" cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:35:04 EDT." <199810140135.VAA02895@freebsd.scds.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:46:57 -0700 Message-ID: <22600.908333217@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi guys. Do we have a procedure to install the latest binary snapshot on an > AlphaStation 200? I have a NetBSD boot disk, and the latest FreeBSD alpha > snapshot. Any further instructions would be appreciated. The latest Alpha boot floppies are still a bit beyond the realm of bootability: -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 255 Oct 13 18:04 CHECKSUM.MD5 -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 2512 Oct 13 18:04 README.TXT -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 2949120 Oct 13 18:03 boot.flp -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 2949120 Oct 13 18:04 fixit.flp -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 1474560 Oct 13 18:03 kern.flp -rw-r--r-- 1 jkh ftp-Free 853446 Oct 13 18:02 mfsroot.gz kern.flp would be a fine candidate, companion image to mfsroot.gz that it is, but it's unfortunately also got a gzip'd kernel on it and that's not really easily bootable. We need to get kzip working for ELF binaries before we can use that technique - either that or a bootable 3rd-stage boot block for the alpha which we can boot instead of /kernel and then use it to load the gzip'd kernel and mfs images. In any case, I'm uploading 3.0-19981012-BETA for the alpha to ftp.freebsd.org right now and it should soon be available from development/alpha - when the BETA directory contains more than one subdir, you'll know I've finished copying it. :) That should still install with NetBSD/alpha's boot floppy. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 19:47:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21683 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21676 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:47:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03188; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810140252.TAA03188@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Thomas Valentino Crimi cc: "Justin M. Seger" , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:15:41 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:52:17 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think that wraps up my experience. I'm trying to get an ZXLp driver > put together and will at least be able to begin after I finish a bad > weeks' worth of work and midterms. From teh looks of things a proper > Alpha install disk will be available soon. This is the DC21030 'targa' video, correct? You should be able to bolt support for this onto syscons pretty easily now, as it seems to handle bitmapped displays almost sensibly. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Oct 13 21:24:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03981 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calis.BlackSun.org (slip-ppp-4-198.escape.com [205.160.46.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03968 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@calis.BlackSun.org) Received: from localhost (don@localhost) by calis.BlackSun.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12484; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:24:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from don@calis.BlackSun.org) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:24:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Don To: Robert Huff cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810140141.VAA11124@shell1.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As someone whose only stake is as a (very) interested potential > customer ... I would accept - in fact, would prefer - moderate > limitations on the hardware base if it means better internal > dynamics (and by extension less grief in developing the initial and > subsequent kernels, etc.). I have to agree here. If we are going to put supporting all alpha hardware above creating a real unix os then why dont we simply run NT? -don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 02:59:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05201 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 02:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from octopus.originative.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05196 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 02:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by OCTOPUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <4XLGGWAR>; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:41:58 +0100 Message-ID: From: Paul Richards To: "'Thomas Valentino Crimi'" , "'freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:41:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Valentino Crimi [mailto:tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 3:16 AM > To: Justin M. Seger; freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? > > Note that the netbsd bootloaders look for the kernel in /netbsd I > havn't had the courage to modify my bootblocks yet (anyone > know if it's > fully implemented?) since i've seen lots of activity in that > area. So, > if you're like me or even if you aren't, keep a copy of the kernle in > /netbsd > You can use the srm console boot command to change the kernel filename e.g. boot -file kernel dka0 On a totally unrelated topic, has anyone had any luck with de0 on a Multia. I can't get it to see any traffic on the wire, it probes fine, seems to select the right media but no traffic arrives or leaves. I've started trying to sort this out but the de0 driver has become a really horrible mess and it's taking me a while to unravel it. From what I've done so far I know that the driver's interrupt handler never gets called and that OACTIVE is permanantly stuck on. NetBSD works fine but diffing against their sources hasn't turned up anything that immediately lept out as being the reason. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 09:05:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12919 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12906 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01146 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810141610.JAA01146@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "'freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Steps to install on an AlphaStation 200? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:41:57 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:10:19 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On a totally unrelated topic, has anyone had any luck with de0 on a > Multia. I can't get it to see any traffic on the wire, it probes fine, > seems to select the right media but no traffic arrives or leaves. No; I've seen the same symptoms. I can only conclude that something is wrong with our PCI config in that interrupts aren't being enabled or routed or something. The ethernet ends up on irq 15 - maybe this is an issue? > I've started trying to sort this out but the de0 driver has become a > really horrible mess and it's taking me a while to unravel it. From what > I've done so far I know that the driver's interrupt handler never gets > called and that OACTIVE is permanantly stuck on. NetBSD works fine but > diffing against their sources hasn't turned up anything that immediately > lept out as being the reason. Same here. I tried enabling the netbsd && alpha code fragments as well, also to no avail. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 10:11:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23056 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23035 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:11:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA08380; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810141710.KAA08380@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:10:34 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Andrew Gallatin wrote: > Yes, as the comment in trap.c says: any unaligned access in the kernel > is a bug. > > > think in NetBSD, they just print it to the console. Has anyone > > Last I looked, NetBSD panics. Digital UNIX fixes up unaligned > accesses in versions prior to 4.0d. NetBSD, by default, fixes unaligned accesses for user code, and logs them to the console. All unaligned accesses in the kernel are bugs, hence the panic. Changing the kernel to fixup unaligned access in the kernel is just plain wrong. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 940 5942 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 10:40:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27051 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27044 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16013; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20718; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:39:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:39:29 -0400 (EDT) To: Jason Thorpe Cc: Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-Reply-To: <199810141710.KAA08380@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> References: <199810141710.KAA08380@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13860.57411.377077.88475@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Thorpe writes: > > to the console. All unaligned accesses in the kernel are bugs, hence the > panic. Changing the kernel to fixup unaligned access in the kernel is > just plain wrong. In general I agree -- we found a really stupid performance bug in our Myrinet messaging system after we upgraded to DU4.0d (which doesn't fixup unaligned access faults in kernel mode) & realized we were taking an unaligned access trap in a certain chunk of frequently called code. However, I think its a perfectly acceptable temporary local hack when the unaligned access trap's are somebody else's fault & are preventing you from making forward progress on your own project.. Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 11:36:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05974 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05962 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01067; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810141833.LAA01067@implode.root.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:10:34 PDT." <199810141710.KAA08380@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:33:18 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:42:52 -0400 (EDT) > Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > > Yes, as the comment in trap.c says: any unaligned access in the kernel > > is a bug. > > > > > think in NetBSD, they just print it to the console. Has anyone > > > > Last I looked, NetBSD panics. Digital UNIX fixes up unaligned > > accesses in versions prior to 4.0d. > >NetBSD, by default, fixes unaligned accesses for user code, and logs them >to the console. All unaligned accesses in the kernel are bugs, hence the >panic. Changing the kernel to fixup unaligned access in the kernel is >just plain wrong. Kernel printf's spewing on the console are a pretty annoying way to encourage someone to fix the problem. I think I'd rather see that than a panic. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 13:47:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23122 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23115 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03585; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:44:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:44:52 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Robert Huff cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810140141.VAA11124@shell1.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Robert Huff wrote: > > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > CGD's point about this maybe not being important really stands or > > falls based on what hardware is going to be commonly available, > > and what PLA code comes loaded. > > As someone whose only stake is as a (very) interested potential > customer ... I would accept - in fact, would prefer - moderate > limitations on the hardware base if it means better internal > dynamics (and by extension less grief in developing the initial and > subsequent kernels, etc.). I have no intention of using the NT/ARC palcode since it imposes unacceptable limitations (32bit address space, sicko NT process semantics etc). The palcode is not the same as the firmware though. We may use the ARC/AlphaBIOS firmware to load the kernel in the future and then switch from ARC palcode to our own palcode (which will be very similar to OSF palcode), probably derived from the MILO palcode (not GPL as far as I know). Does anyone know what proportion of alpha boxes sold run Linux/*BSD instead of NT? It might be worthwhile for Compaq to put a copy of the OSF palcode into the AlphaBIOS firmware to make life easier for Linux/*BSD. Wait a second - that makes too much sense :-(. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 13:48:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23257 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23248 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03605; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:47:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:47:13 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Chris Csanady cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-Reply-To: <199810132125.QAA04010@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Chris Csanady wrote: > I seem to be having quite a bit of trouble with booting > kernels in the last couple of days. It has almost looked > random. Currently I have 2 boxes, with identical kernels > and boot blocks and one of them simply fails to boot. :( > I get the following: This is because I haven't been tracking the latest changes in the bootstrap code. I will fix it asap. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 13:53:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23969 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23961 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA11114; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810142051.NAA11114@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dg@root.com Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:51:42 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:33:18 -0700 David Greenman wrote: > Kernel printf's spewing on the console are a pretty annoying way to > encourage someone to fix the problem. I think I'd rather see that than a > panic. Panics are even more annoying. And they acually force you to fix them. Just doing printfs for broken kernel code only encourages laziness. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 940 5942 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 15:00:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03990 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03982 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:00:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA11561; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810142159.OAA11561@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Doug Rabson Cc: Robert Huff , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:59:49 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:44:52 +0100 (BST) Doug Rabson wrote: > Does anyone know what proportion of alpha boxes sold run Linux/*BSD > instead of NT? It might be worthwhile for Compaq to put a copy of the OSF > palcode into the AlphaBIOS firmware to make life easier for Linux/*BSD. > Wait a second - that makes too much sense :-(. Are you kidding? That would make it possible for non-Digital^WCompaq boards to run Digital UNIX (formerly DEC OSF/1). Why do you think they don't include it? Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 940 5942 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 15:58:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13443 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ascetic.portal.ca (ascetic.portal.ca [206.87.139.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13434 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by ascetic.portal.ca (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05478; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ascetic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810142213.PAA29962@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > I realize the conditions. > I have a very hard time not beliving that the VMS PALcode doesn't > make the Alpha look like a VAX.... Obviously you don't realise the conditions. All I can ask is *please* go read that Alpha Architecture Reference Manual you say you have, so you're not arguing from ignorance. But for your information, yes it does make it look kind of like a VAX. Kind of like a VAX running certain parts of the VMS operating system. > It seems, > in fact, to ignore the last 20 years that architects have spent > working on HAL's *precisely* so that the OS would be *unable* > to put down hardware-dependent roots. You seem to believe that the PALcode is an implementation that extends the hardware. This is not the case. Read this next statement carefully: The PALcode is an implementation of a few of the most hardware-dependent parts of the operating system. In many ways, the PALcode *is* the OS HAL. > Yes, this may mean that we have to emultate some functions in > software. So what? No, it doesn't mean that. In the case of using the Windows NT PALcode, it means you're effectively running on a 32-bit machine, among other things. This is no way of `emulating' around this. If you think people are going to laugh at you for not running on all Alphas, just wait until what they say when you explain that your OS is limited to 32 bits. > ...I'm going to say on the matter of making FreeBSD run on only > a small fraction of the machines because of anti-Microsoft > politics and inadequate willingness to engineer around artificial > limitations. I'd like to see where you get `small fraction' from, Terry. Not only is DU PALcode available for most Alphas, but there are a number of Alphas (primarially the older and the bigger ones) for which there is no Windows NT PALcode available. So you're cutting off machines either way. cjs -- Curt Sampson 604-257-9400 De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil. Any opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. The most widely ported operating system in the world: http://www.netbsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 17:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28133 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calis.BlackSun.org (slip-ppp-4-198.escape.com [205.160.46.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28122 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@calis.BlackSun.org) Received: from localhost (don@localhost) by calis.BlackSun.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13548; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:48:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from don@calis.BlackSun.org) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:48:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Don To: Terry Lambert cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810142253.PAA02551@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think the same argument is possible inre: Intel hardware, isn't > it? It may be but if I wanted the 32 bit limitations that the NT PALcode imposes I would not have bought Alphas, I would have bought Intel machines. (I am referring to nothing but the 32 bit limited NT PALcode here) -Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 17:57:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29715 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29690 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05491; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810150054.RAA05491@implode.root.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:51:42 PDT." <199810142051.NAA11114@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:54:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:33:18 -0700 > David Greenman wrote: > > > Kernel printf's spewing on the console are a pretty annoying way to > > encourage someone to fix the problem. I think I'd rather see that than a > > panic. > >Panics are even more annoying. And they acually force you to fix them. > >Just doing printfs for broken kernel code only encourages laziness. Well, that might be fine for a developer, but it sure doesn't help end users. We *are* trying to provide a production system after all. :-) (I guess der Mouse will never want to use FreeBSD...) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 19:00:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10565 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (homeworld.cygnus.com [205.180.83.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10540 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cgd@netbsd.org) Received: (qmail 26925 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Oct 1998 01:59:18 -0000 To: dg@root.com Cc: Jason Thorpe , Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. References: <199810150054.RAA05491@implode.root.com> From: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: 14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 -0700 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:54:45 -0700 Message-ID: <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > >Just doing printfs for broken kernel code only encourages laziness. > > Well, that might be fine for a developer, but it sure doesn't help end > users. We *are* trying to provide a production system after all. :-) If code is sufficiently untested that it randomly runs into unaligned accesses, then by definition, it isn't a production-quality system and you don't need to worry about panic()ing. However, if it _is_ well tested, "production quality," and still runs into that unaligned access, then that unaligned access is probably indicative of a somewhat-serious bug. It means either that code is getting a bogus value because of specification/implementation "issue," or that something, somewhere got corrupted, and therefore the system lost. To have such bugs fixed properly, in many cases, a developer will need to know more about the context in which it occurred than just the fact that it occurred, the PC, and a few registers. That means panic, followed by kernel core dump (or invocation of kernel debugger, or whatever), which then gets handed by the user of the production system to a developer, who debugs it. In my opinion, it's not only bad, but _irresponsible_ to let the system bumble on in the face of such a bug. High uptime is nice, but if it comes at the cost of ignoring serious system errors or corrupting data, it's worthless. cgd -- Chris Demetriou - cgd@netbsd.org - http://www.netbsd.org/People/Pages/cgd.html Disclaimer: Not speaking for NetBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 19:20:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13863 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:20:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13762 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06537; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810150217.TAA06537@implode.root.com> To: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) cc: Jason Thorpe , Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:17:43 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >However, if it _is_ well tested, "production quality," and still runs >into that unaligned access, then that unaligned access is probably >indicative of a somewhat-serious bug. It means either that code is >getting a bogus value because of specification/implementation "issue," >or that something, somewhere got corrupted, and therefore the system >lost. I don't agree with that. >To have such bugs fixed properly, in many cases, a developer will need >to know more about the context in which it occurred than just the fact >that it occurred, the PC, and a few registers. That means panic, >followed by kernel core dump (or invocation of kernel debugger, or >whatever), which then gets handed by the user of the production system >to a developer, who debugs it. > >In my opinion, it's not only bad, but _irresponsible_ to let the >system bumble on in the face of such a bug. High uptime is nice, but >if it comes at the cost of ignoring serious system errors or >corrupting data, it's worthless. We have lot's of diagnostic code in FreeBSD to panic on various internal inconsistencies. An unaligned reference, in my experiance, is usually not something to be worried about. My opinion, of course, and you're welcome to your's. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 19:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15450 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15428 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28194; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:28:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199810150228.TAA28194@kithrup.com> To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-Reply-To: <199810150217.TAA06537.kithrup.freebsd.freebsd-arch.alpha@implode.root.com> References: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199810150217.TAA06537.kithrup.freebsd.freebsd-arch.alpha@implode.root.com> you write: > We have lot's of diagnostic code in FreeBSD to panic on various internal >inconsistencies. An unaligned reference, in my experiance, is usually not >something to be worried about. An unaligned reference on an Alpha is considerably more severe than an unaligned reference on the x86. It is, in fact, roughly akin to dereferencing NULL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 20:19:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22558 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from diablo.OntheNet.com.au (diablo.OntheNet.com.au [203.10.89.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22534 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tonyg@OntheNet.com.au) Received: from OntheNet.com.au (swanee.nt.com.au [203.14.201.3]) by diablo.OntheNet.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01265 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:18:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <36256931.3E4CD672@OntheNet.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:17:05 +1000 From: Tony Griffiths Reply-To: tonyg@OntheNet.com.au Organization: On the Net (ISP on the Gold Coast, Australia) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. References: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> <199810150228.TAA28194@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > In article <199810150217.TAA06537.kithrup.freebsd.freebsd-arch.alpha@implode.root.com> you write: > > We have lot's of diagnostic code in FreeBSD to panic on various internal > >inconsistencies. An unaligned reference, in my experiance, is usually not > >something to be worried about. Not true! Basically, the compiler that generated the code believes that the object being fetched is aligned when it isn't! This indicates a "potential" serious problem which definitely should not be ignored!!! Either the programmer is confused about what they are doing or something has stomped on a pointer... Either way, a dump should be taken so that the problem can be analysed and hopefully fixed. Perhaps the only caveat I would put on this is to use a sysctl flag to determine whether a panic/dump is taken or a fixup done, thus allowing a knowledgable person to make a hopefully informed decision on the severity of the error and the potential consequences of ignoring it! > An unaligned reference on an Alpha is considerably more severe than an > unaligned reference on the x86. True... Literally 100's of instructions are required to handle an unaligned memory access fault. Even if the compiler "knows" that the object is unaligned, it takes 10-11 instructions to load a 32-bit int compared to a single LDL v0,x instruction for aligned data! > It is, in fact, roughly akin to dereferencing NULL. Not quite _THAT_ bad but almost... Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 20:49:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25842 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25837 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:49:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA14693; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810150348.UAA14693@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dg@root.com Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:48:48 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:54:45 -0700 David Greenman wrote: > Well, that might be fine for a developer, but it sure doesn't help end > users. We *are* trying to provide a production system after all. :-) So... Who, besides software developers, who SHOULD KNOW BETTER, are going to be programming in the kernel? Did you even read what I said? Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 940 5942 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Oct 14 23:12:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09773 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (homeworld.cygnus.com [205.180.83.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA09768 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cgd@netbsd.org) Received: (qmail 22327 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Oct 1998 06:12:04 -0000 To: tonyg@OntheNet.com.au Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. References: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> <199810150228.TAA28194@kithrup.com> <36256931.3E4CD672@OntheNet.com.au> From: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: 14 Oct 1998 23:12:03 -0700 In-Reply-To: Tony Griffiths's message of Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:17:05 +1000 Message-ID: <87ogremk0c.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Griffiths writes: > Perhaps the only caveat I would put on this is to use a sysctl flag to > determine whether a panic/dump is taken or a fixup done, thus allowing a > knowledgable person to make a hopefully informed decision on the severity of > the error and the potential consequences of ignoring it! And, to respond to this: To make such an informed decision, you need to evaluate the problem in context, which means examining the source, tracking down the bug, etc. If you can't track down the bug to something you understand, then you're probably not in a position to make such an informed decision. If you disable it blindly, then you're just rolling the dice... If you can figure out the problem and evaluate it, then it's pretty bloody easy to "#if 0" the chunk of code that panics in the case of that trap, and probably also fairly easy to fix the bug. 8-) cgd -- Chris Demetriou - cgd@netbsd.org - http://www.netbsd.org/People/Pages/cgd.html Disclaimer: Not speaking for NetBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 00:13:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15456 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15451 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA05396; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:12:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:12:20 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Jason Thorpe cc: Robert Huff , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810142159.OAA11561@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Jason Thorpe wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:44:52 +0100 (BST) > Doug Rabson wrote: > > > Does anyone know what proportion of alpha boxes sold run Linux/*BSD > > instead of NT? It might be worthwhile for Compaq to put a copy of the OSF > > palcode into the AlphaBIOS firmware to make life easier for Linux/*BSD. > > Wait a second - that makes too much sense :-(. > > Are you kidding? That would make it possible for non-Digital^WCompaq > boards to run Digital UNIX (formerly DEC OSF/1). > > Why do you think they don't include it? You could only run DUX if you could load the kernel and without SRM, 99.9% of people won't be able to to that. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 00:16:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15795 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15787 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA15305; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810150715.AAA15305@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Doug Rabson Cc: Robert Huff , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:15:41 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:12:20 +0100 (BST) Doug Rabson wrote: > You could only run DUX if you could load the kernel and without SRM, 99.9% > of people won't be able to to that. ...and 100% can't if they can't get OSF/1 PALcode. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 940 5942 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 01:01:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20212 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20206 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10698; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810150758.AAA10698@implode.root.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:58:40 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, that might be fine for a developer, but it sure doesn't help end > > users. We *are* trying to provide a production system after all. :-) > >So... Who, besides software developers, who SHOULD KNOW BETTER, are going >to be programming in the kernel? Did you even read what I said? I did read your message rather quickly. My apologies if I misunderstood the point(s) you were trying to make. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 04:32:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09776 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09767 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rhuff@cybercom.net) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (rhuff@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16216 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rhuff@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA03184; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810151132.HAA03184@shell1.cybercom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Huff To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PALcode In-Reply-To: <199810142253.PAA02551@usr04.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > I have to agree here. If we are going to put supporting all alpha > > hardware above creating a real unix os then why dont we simply > > run NT? > > I think the same argument is possible inre: Intel hardware, isn't > it? I run on x86, knowing it's a limiting choice but believing we (i.e. FreeBSD) use what's available at close to it's maximum potential (for some non-Clintonesque definition of "close"). It is my understanding that much of the interest in Alpha as a platform from the user community is in the possible performance advantages. (I've heard that the principal interest among some/many/most of the developers is in dealing with 64-bit stuff so they'll be ready for Merced. Don't know whether this is true or not.) Why, then, would we make choices which egregiously (as I'm given to understand it) compromise that interest? Robert Huff To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 06:09:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18718 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from po7.andrew.cmu.edu (PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA18713 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id JAA08018 for freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:08:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-Reply-To: <199810150228.TAA28194@kithrup.com> References: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> <199810150228.TAA28194@kithrup.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from mail: 14-Oct-98 Re: kernel traps on boot.. by Sean Eric Fagan@kithrup. > > It is, in fact, roughly akin to dereferencing NULL. > Wow, I used to get a few hundred of them a minute sometimes when trying out alpha-linux... was wondering why it was bothering to tell me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 06:28:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20449 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from po8.andrew.cmu.edu (PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20436 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id JAA07297 for freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Alpha boot blocks Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is it safe to install the elf bootblocks yet or are they still under revision? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 07:35:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01063 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jseger@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01057 for freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jseger) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Justin M. Seger" Message-Id: <199810151435.HAA01057@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: make world on alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are there any tricks to doing a make world on an alpha? Here's the current problem>: cc -O -pipe -I/usr/obj/elf/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/libperl -I/usr/src/gnu/usr.b in/perl/libperl/../../../../contrib/perl5 -I/usr/obj/elf/usr/src/tmp/usr/include -c /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/libperl/../../../../contrib/perl5/perlio.c -o perl io.o building standard perl library ranlib libperl.a sh config_h.sh Extracting config.h (with variable substitutions) install -c -o root -g wheel -m 444 libperl.a /usr/obj/elf/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib /usr/obj/elf/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/libperl created for /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/p erl/libperl /usr/obj/elf/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin/make in free(): warning: modified (chunk-) poin ter. Segmentation fault - core dumped *** Error code 139 Stop. *** Error code 1 And here's the dmesg output: freebsdaxp# dmesg dmesg: kvm_read: kvm_read: Bad address Okay, nevermind. No dmesg output ;) Anyway, I'm running the BETA snapshot that was on freebsd.org a few days ago, and kernel.MULTIA from Mike's page on an AlphaStation 200. Thanks in advance, -Justin Seger- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 13:56:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00278 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00269 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09008; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:54:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:54:48 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Thomas Valentino Crimi cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha boot blocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Thomas Valentino Crimi wrote: > > Is it safe to install the elf bootblocks yet or are they still under > revision? Not right now. I'm still fixing things after Peter's latest work on the pre-loading of kernel modules. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 15 22:58:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15790 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles312.castles.com [208.214.167.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15784 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:58:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00878; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810160602.XAA00878@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) cc: dg@root.com, Jason Thorpe , Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "14 Oct 1998 18:59:18 PDT." <8767dmoaa1.fsf@netbsd1.cygnus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:02:23 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It would probably be fair to say that this neatly encapsulates the philosphical differences between FreeBSD-current and NetBSD-current, and it's not surprising that there's some confusion between the two groups. > David Greenman writes: > > >Just doing printfs for broken kernel code only encourages laziness. > > > > Well, that might be fine for a developer, but it sure doesn't help end > > users. We *are* trying to provide a production system after all. :-) > > If code is sufficiently untested that it randomly runs into unaligned > accesses, then by definition, it isn't a production-quality system and > you don't need to worry about panic()ing. > > However, if it _is_ well tested, "production quality," and still runs > into that unaligned access, then that unaligned access is probably > indicative of a somewhat-serious bug. It means either that code is > getting a bogus value because of specification/implementation "issue," > or that something, somewhere got corrupted, and therefore the system > lost. > > To have such bugs fixed properly, in many cases, a developer will need > to know more about the context in which it occurred than just the fact > that it occurred, the PC, and a few registers. That means panic, > followed by kernel core dump (or invocation of kernel debugger, or > whatever), which then gets handed by the user of the production system > to a developer, who debugs it. FreeBSD policy for new code, is to commit early and fix fast. Because most developers track -current very aggressively, committing code which causes "diagnostic panics" is not a popular option. If the code was on a reasonably common path, it would prevent developers working on unrelated issues from doing anything useful until the problem was resolved (and possibly slow the adoption of the resolution). This places the development cycle somewhat in lockstep, where only one misfeature can be resolved at a time. Instead, FreeBSD developers tend to be a talkative bunch, and the existence of a "diagnostic printf" will cause those seeing it to pipe up and identify themselves to the owner of the code in question, allowing said developer to immediately interact with users having suitable test environments for reproducing the problem without locking everyone else out. > In my opinion, it's not only bad, but _irresponsible_ to let the > system bumble on in the face of such a bug. High uptime is nice, but > if it comes at the cost of ignoring serious system errors or > corrupting data, it's worthless. I don't think anyone would disagree with you here. However an unaligned access doesn't fit into this case, as you can handle it cleanly (while tagging the problem as an error) without crying wolf. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Oct 16 00:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22409 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22404 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12310; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mike Smith cc: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou), dg@root.com, Jason Thorpe , Andrew Gallatin , Chris Csanady , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:02:23 PDT." <199810160602.XAA00878@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:00:13 -0700 Message-ID: <12306.908521213@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > causes "diagnostic panics" is not a popular option. If the code was on > a reasonably common path, it would prevent developers working on > unrelated issues from doing anything useful until the problem was > resolved (and possibly slow the adoption of the resolution). This I have to agree with this. I've been tracking NetBSD-current on my alpha as well, and the amount of time the tree doesn't build because someone turned -Werror on in the name of pursuing some abstract goal of perfection is just silly. OK, I used a world like "silly" and Jason is going to flame me for that, but I really can't think of a better term. I finally gave up on trying to build NetBSD-current sources because it was just too difficult from day to day and if I'm trying to sync up with someone else's work, the last thing I want to have to spend time on is prowling through the Makefiles trying to find and stomp out the overzealous compiler flags. To quote someone from history: The better should never become the enemy of the good. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Oct 16 00:14:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23714 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spinner.netplex.com.au (spinner.netplex.com.au [202.12.86.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23645 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from spinner.netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.netplex.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/Spinner) with ESMTP id OAA16113; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:44:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from peter@spinner.netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <199810160644.OAA16113@spinner.netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: dg@root.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:02:23 MST." <199810160602.XAA00878@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:44:21 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: [..] > > In my opinion, it's not only bad, but _irresponsible_ to let the > > system bumble on in the face of such a bug. High uptime is nice, but > > if it comes at the cost of ignoring serious system errors or > > corrupting data, it's worthless. > > I don't think anyone would disagree with you here. However an unaligned > access doesn't fit into this case, as you can handle it cleanly (while > tagging the problem as an error) without crying wolf. I completely agree for what it's worth. NULL dereferencing is not the same as an unaligned access. There is no clear recovery process for NULL dereferences, the only sensible thing to do is to panic before things get too bad. The system is well and truely off the rails by now. However, with a kernel that was written in a 32 bit environment is is evolving to 64 bit, it's only natural that some code will run afoul of new restrictions. If the only thing that is wrong is the alignment and recovery is possible (although inconvenient), then there's no *benefit* in panicing with dirty filesystems, etc. If you have lots of people pounding on it, you're going to find out about alignment problems in code that you rarely excercise. Sure, excercising test code and regression testing is nice, but it's a luxury we don't yet have. If the system panics on an unaligned accesses and there are some scattered around, you can be sure that people won't be sticking their necks out to play with it. Anyway, it's not worth arguing about this. We're bound to have them still, but it's only a young port and not exactly production grade yet. Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Oct 16 00:33:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24955 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from diablo.OntheNet.com.au (diablo.OntheNet.com.au [203.10.89.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24949 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tonyg@OntheNet.com.au) Received: from OntheNet.com.au (swanee.nt.com.au [203.14.201.3]) by diablo.OntheNet.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14452 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:33:01 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3626F657.8B1DA535@OntheNet.com.au> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:31:35 +1000 From: Tony Griffiths Reply-To: tonyg@OntheNet.com.au Organization: On the Net (ISP on the Gold Coast, Australia) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel panic() on unaligned memory access... References: <199810160644.OAA16113@spinner.netplex.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Wemm wrote: > > Mike Smith wrote: > [..] > > > In my opinion, it's not only bad, but _irresponsible_ to let the > > > system bumble on in the face of such a bug. High uptime is nice, but > > > if it comes at the cost of ignoring serious system errors or > > > corrupting data, it's worthless. > > > > I don't think anyone would disagree with you here. However an unaligned > > access doesn't fit into this case, as you can handle it cleanly (while > > tagging the problem as an error) without crying wolf. Which is why I said in a previous response that a panic() should be conditionally taken based on a sysctl variable. For debugging purposes in -alpha/beta/v1.0 releases, a little more toleration of "non-fatal" errors should be acceptable! The sysctl flag still gives a developer the option of dumping if they really want one to track down why the unaligned access is occurring while at the same time giving everyone else a few less headaches trying to track down someone elses stuffup... At some release after the first when most code paths have been thoroughly exercised, the default can be changed from doing a fixup+printf to panicing. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Oct 16 12:56:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28077 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28072 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06964; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:56:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006922; Fri Oct 16 12:56:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24313; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:56:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810161956.MAA24313@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: kernel traps on boot.. To: peter@netplex.com.au (Peter Wemm) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:56:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, dg@root.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810160644.OAA16113@spinner.netplex.com.au> from "Peter Wemm" at Oct 16, 98 02:44:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > NULL dereferencing is not the same as an unaligned access. There is no > clear recovery process for NULL dereferences, the only sensible thing to > do is to panic before things get too bad. The system is well and truely > off the rails by now. Actually, SVR4 will, by default, trap a pointer dereference of page zero, and map a read-only zero page in its place. Writes to the page are ignored. This is the default behaviour, although there is a kernel tunable to allow you to turn the behaviour off, many programs that shipped on the system assumed "strcpy(x, NULL)" worked. > However, with a kernel that was written in a 32 bit environment is is > evolving to 64 bit, it's only natural that some code will run afoul of new > restrictions. If the only thing that is wrong is the alignment and > recovery is possible (although inconvenient), then there's no *benefit* in > panicing with dirty filesystems, etc. Right; a fixup + printf is probably the correct approach, until you believe fixups are unnecessary, in which case the common developer won't be hitting the panics, it'll only be the border cases. This is why aligned access restrictions should be turned on (bit 18 in EFlags) on Intel processors that support it (486 and above). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. 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