From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 01:10:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04171 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04166 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:10:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14496; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804120809.BAA14496@implode.root.com> To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rhapsody and FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:51:07 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:09:56 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The only question that I am really interested in is, "Did Mr. Sanchez' >query go unnoticed by the core group?" The answer I am looking for is, >"No. The core group did not miss Mr. Sanchez post. They did infact >receive it." The core team definately noticed his message and have communicated with him in private. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 01:41:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06349 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA06341 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA05493; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:33 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26658; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:38 +0300 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:38 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <12130.892266950@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > These are great points - you want to write up a paper on "getting > FreeBSD into academic environments" and I'll print it in the > newsletter? Seriously, the points you've made are too useful to see > just vanish into the mailing list archives.. > > Jordan > Our CS department here at the Technion, for several reasons, is going to distribute CDs to students starting the next academic year. We currently have roughly 1200 undergrads in the department, and the plan calls for this figure to double in the next two years. The CD is intended for the students to use at home instead of swamping the department's overloaded machines. However, Linux is very strong here, and I could not persuade the faculty to use FreeBSD for the purpose. Their main points were the better availability of user-level docs, and the better support students will get from other students that already know Linux. However, all is not lost (I don't think they made any practical steps towards creating the CD). In the process, I also converted two labs to FreeBSD (after Sun suddenly wanted another $10000 for Solaris source licenses, it wasn't very hard). Yet, even these labs are under constant pressure to use NT... Any docs on why FreeBSD would be good for Academia will make a difference in such situations. What is missing, IMHO, is a list of institutions using FreeBSD, both for teaching and research as well as a list of major research operations that are carried out using [Free|Open|Net]BSD. Having links on www.freebsd.org to web pages for courses being taught on FreeBSD would be just great. It seems that for the purpose of handing out CDs to students, nobody is interested at how stable the OS is for running servers :-( Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 02:24:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA09106 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02708; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:22:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199804120922.EAA02708@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: from Nadav Eiron at "Apr 12, 98 11:41:38 am" To: nadav@cs.technion.ac.il (Nadav Eiron) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:22:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mark@vmunix.com, kris@airnet.net, dshanes@personalogic.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > These are great points - you want to write up a paper on "getting > > FreeBSD into academic environments" and I'll print it in the > > newsletter? Seriously, the points you've made are too useful to see > > just vanish into the mailing list archives.. > > > > Jordan > > > > Our CS department here at the Technion, for several reasons, is going to > distribute CDs to students starting the next academic year. We currently > have roughly 1200 undergrads in the department, and the plan calls for > this figure to double in the next two years. The CD is intended for the > students to use at home instead of swamping the department's overloaded > machines. However, Linux is very strong here, and I could not persuade > the faculty to use FreeBSD for the purpose. Their main points were the > better availability of user-level docs, and the better support students > will get from other students that already know Linux. However, all is not > lost (I don't think they made any practical steps towards creating the > CD). In the process, I also converted two labs to FreeBSD (after Sun > suddenly wanted another $10000 for Solaris source licenses, it wasn't very > hard). Yet, even these labs are under constant pressure to use NT... > > Any docs on why FreeBSD would be good for Academia will make a difference > in such situations. What is missing, IMHO, is a list of institutions using > FreeBSD, both for teaching and research as well as a list of major > research operations that are carried out using [Free|Open|Net]BSD. Having > links on www.freebsd.org to web pages for courses being taught on FreeBSD > would be just great. It seems that for the purpose of handing out CDs to > students, nobody is interested at how stable the OS is for running servers > :-( > *BSD: (Net, Free)BSD are the OSes being used by NCI (the Oracle subsidiary) for their commercial/business NC platform. The OSes are working very well. Frankly, there was no other reasonable choice, due to quality, licensing and cost. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 02:30:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09769 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA09763 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA06070; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:29:55 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA29003; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:30:03 +0300 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:30:03 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: "John S. Dyson" cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mark@vmunix.com, kris@airnet.net, dshanes@personalogic.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <199804120922.EAA02708@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > *BSD: (Net, Free)BSD are the OSes being used by NCI (the Oracle subsidiary) > for their commercial/business NC platform. The OSes are working very well. > Frankly, there was no other reasonable choice, due to quality, licensing and > cost. I know that. What I meant was a list of *academic* institutions (research centers, colleges, universities, etc.). > > John > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 04:49:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27196 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:49:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27191 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27199; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 05:48:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804121148.FAA27199@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 05:48:52 -0600 To: Nadav Eiron , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Cc: Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <12130.892266950@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:41 AM 4/12/98 +0300, Nadav Eiron wrote: >Linux is very strong here, and I could not persuade >the faculty to use FreeBSD for the purpose. Their main points were the >better availability of user-level docs, and the better support students >will get from other students that already know Linux. In that case, why didn't they use Microsoft Windows? ;-( This is the sort of attitude I fear if FreeBSD isn't seen as SUPERIOR to, not just the equal of, Linux. Among the lemming-like masses, no one goes with an also-ran. It's time to hustle. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 05:06:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29771 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 05:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA29764 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 05:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA08123; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:05:43 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA03567; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:05:50 +0300 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:05:50 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Brett Glass cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <199804121148.FAA27199@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:41 AM 4/12/98 +0300, Nadav Eiron wrote: > > >Linux is very strong here, and I could not persuade > >the faculty to use FreeBSD for the purpose. Their main points were the > >better availability of user-level docs, and the better support students > >willget from other students that already know Linux. > > In that case, why didn't they use Microsoft Windows? ;-( To be honest, that was what they intended to do before I talked to them, and before Micro$oft told them that to give away NT, Office, Visual C++ and Visual J++ to students will cost them a few hundred $$$s in educational licenses (per copy) and will take some 16 CDs... > > This is the sort of attitude I fear if FreeBSD isn't seen as SUPERIOR > to, not just the equal of, Linux. Among the lemming-like masses, > no one goes with an also-ran. > > It's time to hustle. > > --Brett Glass > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 06:20:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06698 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06650; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29096; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Frank Pawlak cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:46 CDT." <199804110639.BAA16560@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:19:50 -0700 Message-ID: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Further, I in no way intended my remarks to be taken as someone else, > the core team or others, should do the work. I understand that the work > has to be done by volunteers, like myself. Sadly you sniped my closing > sentence where I offered my time in some capacity that would benefit > the cause. Nor was I necessarily expecting direction from your group. Again, it was not my intention to slam you or your willingness to help out so much as it was to make a general point - your message was just the straw which got me to write it. :) > You mention RAH RAH!! and warfare, both are subjects that I know a few > things about. You don't necessarily need to match the enemy man for > man. I once was part of a regiment that faced three full divisions and > we emerged victorious!! I can also speak to the part that RAH RAH > plays on winning football teams. The idea being that RAH RAH puts the > fire in the gut and leads people on to victory what ever the endeavor. Heh. I also didn't mean to imply that a few very strategically employed individuals couldn't make a substantive difference in the face of massive opposition - hell, the fact that we're going to have to do exactly that is something of a given since we're already heavily outnumbered and far behind enemy lines. :-) I was simply trying to make it very clear that unless the FreeBSD "citizenry" get actively involved, we're going to fail in competition with any OS group who's users *are* involved. The difference between fighting an enemy who's motivated vs one who's dispirited and fighting only under duress is also something that you, as a military man, should be well familiar with. :) > Perhaps a core team of volunteers modeled on the way the core > development team operates will be just as effective in getting our job > done as you are doing yours. Just as you are the leader of the core > team our leader will arise from ongoing dialog and compilation of ideas > that eventually jell into the business plan that I suggested, and our I've no problem with that idea at all. Moreover, I think that the FreeBSD project has always strongly endorsed the concept of a "management hierarchy", possibly more out of enlightened laziness than anything else, since any reasonably effective hierarchy enables one to not have to worry about a large number of things. I'd like to not have to worry so much about grass-roots publicity and such, yes. :-) However, getting people genuinely willing to "manage" is harder than it looks. Being willing to lead implies a long-term committment and that scares a lot of people off. > BTW, a mutual aquaintance mentioned that there is a remarkable > resemblance between yourself and the BSD Daemon ;-) Now is your humor > tonight? Hmmmm. My picture is in various places around the net, so I'll let you simply judge that for yourself. Needless to say, I don't think I've eaten quite *that* much pie this year. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 09:07:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22386 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22379 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:07:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA19030; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:07:07 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA29502; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 08:05:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Brett Glass cc: "Jason C. Wells" , The Classiest Man Alive , Chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) In-Reply-To: <199804120554.XAA24314@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:36 PM 4/11/98 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >Yes. It is called the FreeBSD newsletter. It is online one the website. > >You can view it with the linux version of acrobat. > > Two problems: > > 1. There's only one issue, and it's stale. > > 2. It's in a proprietary format that requires many readers to download > a plug-in. (Others, such as users as some of the other *BSD's, can't > even GET a plug-in and so can't read it.) There's no excuse for this in > a situation where we want to support non-proprietary standards and easy > migration between platforms. Hey! I didn't say it was perfect. I was just pointing to its existence. The original poster had requested a "magazine." I was just telling that poster what we _did_ have. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 09:17:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23154 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23149 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:17:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14780 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:17:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SCO, Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since I also get logical, down to earth answers from the BSD group let me ask you the following questions: 1) Why is it that most senior Unix admin people have a dislike for SCO ? I mean it has the largest install base of any Intel based commerical Unix system (that's SCO words) 2) After about 6-8 months of check the Unix job market in Toronto, the demand goes something like this: 1) SunOS/Solaris 2) HP-UX 3) AIX 4) SCO Unix I think SCO Unix user base is under heavy attack from NT, RedHat, and Caldera. 3) In some point in the future, what will happen when Caldera, and Redhat wants to control their own destiny (i.e. control the kernel) 4) Not to bash Linux, I like it and I use sometimes, but if you want to be a Unix System admin, is it not better to do the following FreeBSD - to learn about BSD based systems, I mean everything you learn here can be applied to any BSD based Unix system, including SunOS. That looks good on any job application. Unixware - It's free but it is also a true SysV/R4, and now SysV/R5 system. That also looks good on any job application. What I am saying, here is when you walk into a Unix shop, chances are you will see BSD or Sys V Unix. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 10:35:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01794 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01785 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (fornax-55.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.88.183]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id MAA25265; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:35:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22609; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:34:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804120634.BAA22609@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:34:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) To: brett@lariat.org cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, ksmm@cybercom.net, Chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804120554.XAA24314@lariat.lariat.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:36 PM 4/11/98 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>Yes. It is called the FreeBSD newsletter. It is online one the website. >>You can view it with the linux version of acrobat. > > Two problems: > > 1. There's only one issue, and it's stale. > > 2. It's in a proprietary format that requires many readers to download > a plug-in. (Others, such as users as some of the other *BSD's, can't > even GET a plug-in and so can't read it.) There's no excuse for this in > a situation where we want to support non-proprietary standards and easy > migration between platforms. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Perhaps I am missing your point here, but I just had a look at the news letter and it worked fine. I am using the Linux port of Netscape and acroread from the ports collection and it worked just fine. the plugin is part of the port. If you are referring to browsers other than Netscape, yes then the news letter will have to downloaded to be read. Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 10:48:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04129 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@luke.pmr.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00308; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:48:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Message-ID: <19980412124802.48250@pmr.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:48:02 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: chat list Subject: Re: Mozilla CVS repository, OK give it a shot. -- FAILING for me! Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <9653.892233276@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:04:34PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:04:34PM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > This is what the cvsup entries should look like: > > > > *default prefix=/home/mozilla base=/home/mozilla host=mozilla.FreeBSD.org release=cvs delete compress use-rel-suffix > > > > ## Main Source Tree > > cvs-mozilla > > Wooooo! Outstanding! I'm grabbing it now. This is just to slick for words. > cvsup is great :) Thanks for making it availble! And john thanks for > cvsup! I was able to run cvsup on this fine several times, but now just this morning I started getting: Parsing supfile "mozilla/mozilla-supfile" Looking up address of mozilla.FreeBSD.org Connecting to mozilla.FreeBSD.org Connected to mozilla.FreeBSD.org Server software version: REL_15_3 Negotiating file attribute support Exchanging collection information Establishing active-mode data connection Running Updating collection cvs-mozilla/cvs Detailer failed: Protocol error: Invalid FileAttr.AttrTypes encoding Is anybody else seeing this? Any suggestions on what I can do to fix it? Thanks, -- Bob Willcox The husband who doesn't tell his wife everything bob@luke.pmr.com probably reasons that what she doesn't know won't Austin, TX hurt him. -- Leo J. Burke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 10:55:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05865 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mexcom.net (ver2-110.uninet.net.mx [200.38.135.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05738 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx) Received: from mc.mexcom.net (telmex@ppp-14.mexcom.net [206.103.65.206]) by ns.mexcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08291 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:51:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3530F24F.FB3EF88@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:56:47 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.A. de C.V. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth ac7c68ab subscribe chat eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 11:05:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08309 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08302 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16980; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804121805.LAA16980@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Bob Willcox cc: chat list Subject: Re: Mozilla CVS repository, OK give it a shot. -- FAILING for me! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:48:02 CDT." <19980412124802.48250@pmr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:05:16 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am now getting this: Updating collection cvs-mozilla/cvs Detailer failed: Protocol error: Missing "#" Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 11:08:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08922 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08914 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA43168; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:08:33 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id LAA10045; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:07:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Edwin Culp cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <3530F24F.FB3EF88@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Edwin Culp wrote: > auth ac7c68ab subscribe chat eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message You want to send this to majordomo@freebsd.org. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 11:44:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16263 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (root@piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16250 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) Received: from scooter.mdstud.chalmers.se (md6tommy@scooter.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.20]) by piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12229 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:44:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (md6tommy@localhost) by scooter.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08469 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:44:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: scooter.mdstud.chalmers.se: md6tommy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:44:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Tommy Hallgren To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hungry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.hungry.com/news/ These guys are cool! Tommy Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) - the source of all good beers... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 12:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21518 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17387; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804121932.MAA17387@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Tommy Hallgren cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hungry In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:44:31 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:32:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeap, thats the right approach... Cheers, Amancio > http://www.hungry.com/news/ > > These guys are cool! > > Tommy Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) - the source of all good beers... > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 12:51:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22603 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22557 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25626; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:55:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980412155504.11758@vmunix.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:55:04 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hungry References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tommy Hallgren on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 08:44:31PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 08:44:31PM +0200, Tommy Hallgren wrote: > http://www.hungry.com/news/ > > These guys are cool! Cool. :-) Good to see some of the higher profile free sites sporting powered by FreeBSD logos on every page, and a news headline entitled "FreeBSD rocks". :-) Considering these guys are related to the Lesstif project, and Japhar (a Java VM), we should get some good coverage here! -Mark > > Tommy Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) - the source of all good beers... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 13:31:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27263 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from charmed.wilshire.net ([205.185.169.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27253 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:31:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chaos@tgci.com) Received: from straycat.Wilshire.Net (pool018-max28.mpop2-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.245.118]) by charmed.wilshire.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17727; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804122029.NAA17727@charmed.wilshire.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:31:33 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com In-reply-to: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry to post this to the list, but I can't seem to subscribe to supporters. Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com gets bounced. The archives show this happened to a couple others and I wondered if a solution's been found. My mail to Greg gets bounced too. Thanks, Riley To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 14:18:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01919 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au ([203.36.2.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01728 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id HAA18442; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:16:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199804122116.HAA18442@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199804122029.NAA17727@charmed.wilshire.net> from "Riley J. McIntire" at "Apr 12, 98 01:31:33 pm" To: chaos@tgci.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:16:34 +1000 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Riley J. McIntire wrote: > Sorry to post this to the list, but I can't seem to subscribe to > supporters. Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com gets bounced. > > The archives show this happened to a couple others and I wondered if > a solution's been found. > > My mail to Greg gets bounced too. I am still having this problem too. I've checked my DNS entries and as far as I can see, the reverse entries for consistent with the normal ones. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 14:33:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ophelia.uoregon.edu (sharding@ophelia.uoregon.edu [128.223.194.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03165 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@ophelia.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by ophelia.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA13520; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: John Birrell cc: chaos@tgci.com, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199804122116.HAA18442@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, John Birrell wrote: > I am still having this problem too. I've checked my DNS entries and as > far as I can see, the reverse entries for consistent with the normal ones. Doesn't look that way to me: Received: from cimlogic.com.au ([203.36.2.25]) ix ~ 50% nslookup 203.36.2.25 Server: dns.cs.uoregon.edu Address: 128.223.6.9 *** dns.cs.uoregon.edu can't find 203.36.2.25: Non-existent host/domain ix ~ 51% nslookup cimlogic.com.au Server: dns.cs.uoregon.edu Address: 128.223.6.9 Non-authoritative answer: Name: cimlogic.com.au Address: 203.36.2.25 Something is configured incorrectly. Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"Life is a sleazy stranger http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | & this is his favorite bar." NeXTMail OK! | --Ani DiFranco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 14:48:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from charmed.wilshire.net ([205.185.169.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05330 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chaos@tgci.com) Received: from straycat.Wilshire.Net (pool021-max1.mpop2-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.240.21]) by charmed.wilshire.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17848; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804122146.OAA17848@charmed.wilshire.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: Sean Harding Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:48:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199804122116.HAA18442@cimlogic.com.au> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My dns seems ok--I checked both locally and offisite: bash$ /usr/sbin/nslookup Default Server: pcnet1.pcnet.com Address: 204.213.232.3 > mail.tgci.com Server: pcnet1.pcnet.com Address: 204.213.232.3 Name: janeway.tgci.com Address: 205.185.169.3 Aliases: mail.tgci.com > 205.185.169.3 Server: pcnet1.pcnet.com Address: 204.213.232.3 Name: janeway.tgci.com Address: 205.185.169.3 Riley > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, John Birrell wrote: > > > I am still having this problem too. I've checked my DNS entries and as > > far as I can see, the reverse entries for consistent with the normal ones. > > Doesn't look that way to me: > > Something is configured incorrectly. > > Sean > > -- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 17:36:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27130 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23278; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:06:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA28533; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:06:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980413100624.W24376@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:06:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: chaos@tgci.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD References: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> <199804122029.NAA17727@charmed.wilshire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804122029.NAA17727@charmed.wilshire.net>; from Riley J. McIntire on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 01:31:33PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 April 1998 at 13:31:33 +0000, Riley J. McIntire wrote: > Sorry to post this to the list, but I can't seem to subscribe to > supporters. Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com gets bounced. > > The archives show this happened to a couple others and I wondered if > a solution's been found. Telstra (Australia's backbone provider) appears to have been having some routing problems over the Easter break, and name lookups have become very unreliable as a result. In your case, I got: Apr 13 04:57:00 nanguo sendmail[27781]: NOQUEUE: ruleset=check_relay, arg1=[205.185.169.120], arg2=205.185.169.120, relay=[205.185.169.120], reject=451 Reverse lookup of IP address failed It works now. Try again, before it changes its mind :-) Does anybody have better ideas about anti-spam? I think I'm going to have to remove this stuff, since it causes too many bounces. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 19:18:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09286; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (indobok-9.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.87.9]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id CAA14679; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:17:58 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02346; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:17:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:17:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com In-Reply-To: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, O.K the glove are off, now it's time to talk shop. This is another bandwidth busting proposal for your consideration. Inventations for your changes corrections and alterations as well as anyone else with something to contribute are in order. As you have no doubt observed, several people have volunteered some great ideas over the past two days. That was primarily the reason for my posts, to try to draw out people to say I can do this or I can do that. I think that it is starting to work. My ideas maybe good or bad, but through others adding to them or criticizing them we will come up with a workable plan that will improve the visability of FreeBSD. We are small in number, but I am encouraged by the response that there is a spark of fire in the belly of the user community that needs to be fanned into a blaze. That is our first goal a call for volunteers. More on that later. >> Perhaps a core team of volunteers modeled on the way the core >> development team operates will be just as effective in getting our job >> done as you are doing yours. Just as you are the leader of the core >> team our leader will arise from ongoing dialog and compilation of ideas >> that eventually jell into the business plan that I suggested, and our > > I've no problem with that idea at all. Moreover, I think that the > FreeBSD project has always strongly endorsed the concept of a > "management hierarchy", possibly more out of enlightened laziness than > anything else, since any reasonably effective hierarchy enables one to > not have to worry about a large number of things. I'd like to not > have to worry so much about grass-roots publicity and such, yes. :-) I think that is the right model for all phases of the project, and the one that should be used for those of us doing project promotion. It is a good model to maintain focus and maximize resources. It also presents a united professional front to the market place. > > However, getting people genuinely willing to "manage" is harder than > it looks. Being willing to lead implies a long-term committment > and that scares a lot of people off. This is going to be an ongoing problem perhaps, but being structured along the line of the core team will provide the means to hand the porject on to new custodians as the need arises. I think in time we can develop a camp following the will push as hard as the Linux people do. The road there will no doubt involve some pain, but am confident that we can find the vocal majority that we require. As for me, my background has primarily been in project management, consulting, and tangible and intangible sales all in computer related activities. I am self taught in UNIX and by no means an expert. Thus I am volunteering to work as one of the coordinators of project positioning or what the hell ever we end up calling this phase of the project. Jordan, I understand that you are very busy, but I think that we'll need you as an informal advisor at least untill we get on our feet on the ground a little bit. Your name fills the slot as the project PR guy and am sure you have strong feelings as to project direction, image etc., so I defer to you on some of these issues. I have read the information on the project from the web site and have a feel for some of this stuff. I would invite all volunteers, especially those writting press releases and advertising things to digest this and pass it on to those people that you are working with. Appears to me that there are many issues that need to be addressed before we go running off half cocked an waisting motion through duplication of effort and so forth. At this point we have resources: our time, a top notch develop team, the best version of UNIX -- oops sorry SCO I didn't say that -- and a web site with much good information, and there are commercial publications devoted to Berkeley UNIX and greg's The Complete FreeBSD. There are legal and private entities that we have to interface with. I believe that FreeBSD is incorporated as is Walnut Creek CDROM We don;t need priveledged information, but the case could arise that are actions out of total ignorance could have consequences. These are best addressed and avoided up front. Several of us feel that getting FreeBSD in university bookstores and various departments is critical to our success, I am in that number, what are the implications of that action on Walnut Creek's production runs. Possibilities of telemarketing activities to meet this goal, and so it goes. the list can and may well get long. Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and would like to do. Time commitments at this point at least are open to your individual capabilities. I have retained your messages as some of you had already appeard to commit to certain actions. That response is extremely encouraging. So far we have a great start. Yes we do need more help. You folks that live in countries other than the United States your help is especially important. You will be helping the FreeBSD project that is true, but you will also be spreading the word to your countryman who hunger for technology, that FreeBSD is the best platform to use to learn system software, provide internet access service, and as a development platform. Documentation on how to install and setup an operating system needs to be written in native languages. Your efforts will improve the lives of people all over the world through helping them to obtain and learn to use modern technology. > >> BTW, a mutual aquaintance mentioned that there is a remarkable >> resemblance between yourself and the BSD Daemon ;-) Now is your humor >> tonight? > > Hmmmm. My picture is in various places around the net, so I'll let > you simply judge that for yourself. Needless to say, I don't think > I've eaten quite *that* much pie this year. :-) I was just kidding about the daemon ;-) Looking forward to your response. Sincerely, Frank > > Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 19:37:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13889 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13883; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18209; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:36:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980413123654.14293@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:36:54 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Frank Pawlak Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:17:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:17:39PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come > forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and > would like to do. There are a few newbies with lots of energy who discussed this and started throwing ideas around a couple of weeks ago, but didn't really know how best to expend their energies or implement their ideas in an appropriate manner. Those of us with limited Internet resources are waiting to discover whether we'll get a piece of the action best by joining -hackers or -chat or the rumoured -advocacy. When it comes into focus, we'll be there. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 19:44:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15814 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:44:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA15796 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 16958 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1998 02:44:25 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 1998 02:44:25 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-205.realtime.net [204.96.0.205]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA11988; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:44:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:51:09 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. In-Reply-To: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: The sounds of battle looming remind me of Henry V and the St. Crispin speech. You know... paraphrasing "...they who don't stand with us this day will hold their manhood cheap." Henry speaking just before Agincourt. > > Perhaps a core team of volunteers modeled on the way the core > > development team operates will be just as effective in getting our job > > done as you are doing yours. Just as you are the leader of the core > > team our leader will arise from ongoing dialog and compilation of ideas > > that eventually jell into the business plan that I suggested, and our > > I've no problem with that idea at all. Moreover, I think that the > FreeBSD project has always strongly endorsed the concept of a > "management hierarchy", possibly more out of enlightened laziness than > anything else, since any reasonably effective hierarchy enables one to > not have to worry about a large number of things. I'd like to not > have to worry so much about grass-roots publicity and such, yes. :-) > > However, getting people genuinely willing to "manage" is harder than > it looks. Being willing to lead implies a long-term committment > and that scares a lot of people off. > I'll volunteer. It isn't as though I have time on my hands but I do know how to pioneer a product. And, I do know the value of a longbow. (evil grin) If you have questions, contact me, please. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 19:55:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17782 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17679; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (indobok-9.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.87.9]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id CAA19046; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:54:43 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02561; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:54:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130254.VAA02561@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:54:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: jktheowl@bga.com cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You are a devil after my own heart << real big grin >> I love your turn of the phrase. I won't touch the long bow part. We'll talk more once Jordan responds. Thanks Frank. On 12 Apr, John Kenagy wrote: > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > The sounds of battle looming remind me of Henry V and the St. Crispin > speech. You know... paraphrasing "...they who don't stand with us > this day will hold their manhood cheap." Henry speaking just before > Agincourt. > >> > Perhaps a core team of volunteers modeled on the way the core >> > development team operates will be just as effective in getting our job >> > done as you are doing yours. Just as you are the leader of the core >> > team our leader will arise from ongoing dialog and compilation of ideas >> > that eventually jell into the business plan that I suggested, and our >> >> I've no problem with that idea at all. Moreover, I think that the >> FreeBSD project has always strongly endorsed the concept of a >> "management hierarchy", possibly more out of enlightened laziness than >> anything else, since any reasonably effective hierarchy enables one to >> not have to worry about a large number of things. I'd like to not >> have to worry so much about grass-roots publicity and such, yes. :-) >> >> However, getting people genuinely willing to "manage" is harder than >> it looks. Being willing to lead implies a long-term committment >> and that scares a lot of people off. >> > I'll volunteer. It isn't as though I have time on my hands but I do > know how to pioneer a product. And, I do know the value of a longbow. > (evil grin) > > If you have questions, contact me, please. > > John > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 19:58:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18374; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (indobok-9.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.87.9]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id CAA19455; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:57:57 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02568; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:57:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130257.VAA02568@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:57:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: sue@welearn.com.au cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980413123654.14293@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:17:39PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >> Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come >> forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and >> would like to do. > > There are a few newbies with lots of energy who discussed this and started > throwing ideas around a couple of weeks ago, but didn't really know how best > to expend their energies or implement their ideas in an appropriate manner. > > Those of us with limited Internet resources are waiting to discover whether > we'll get a piece of the action best by joining -hackers or -chat or the > rumoured -advocacy. When it comes into focus, we'll be there. > > Thanks. We are just starting, no focus for anyone yet. But we'll all have our part. Stay in touch until we get some sort of organization, as of right now it will be easy to get lost in the noise. Regards, Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 20:13:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20129 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20061 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06062; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:13:20 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: New name? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that professionals support it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 20:26:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22122 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA22094 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 28688 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1998 03:26:30 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 1998 03:26:30 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-184.realtime.net [205.238.146.184]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA18022; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:26:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:33:13 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Frank Pawlak cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. In-Reply-To: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > Jordan, > > O.K the glove are off, now it's time to talk shop. This is another Alrighty!! > Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come > forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and > would like to do. Time commitments at this point at least are open to > your individual capabilities. I have retained your messages as some of > you had already appeard to commit to certain actions. That response is > extremely encouraging. Frank, I spent 15 years selling all kinds of systems in the manufacturing area. I have written or contributed to applications for Job Shop Control, Computer Aided Manufacturing, and Material Requirements Planning. The last systems were Architectural and Civil Engineering systems on HP/UX. The others were on AT&T System V. I was also a regional manager for the 11 western states for one of these. I am not unfamiliar with pioneering and have done as much on the above mentioned systems and for machine tools in the metal working industry. My FreeBSD experience started with 2.1.5 downloaded with AOL. I now have a LAN at home with several machines of varying architecture. They all run 2.2.1R. (Will switch to new release soon.) If you need more, let me know. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 20:52:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:52:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24788 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:51:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23535; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:47 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA29445; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:46 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:13:20PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 April 1998 at 21:13:20 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages > the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." > What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of > quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that > professionals support it. This was one of the names I suggested on the -supporters group. Well, BSD Pro. Yes, on that list we agree that the "Free" in the name is a disadvantage when "selling" into a corporate environment. Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:12:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26658 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:12:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26653 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA07371; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980412211215.43655@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:12:15 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:13:20PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:13:20PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages > the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." > What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of > quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that > professionals support it. > Having a version of FreeBSD labeled "BSD Professional" or "BSD Office" or whatever would be helpful. Most suit types have a problem with a system labeled free anything. Of course, pointing out that the Solaris or HP/UX system that they just paid big bucks for contains lots of freeware like DNS, sendmail, elm, X, emacs, etc. does not make points with them. However, if they ever figure out that "BSD Office" is in fact FreeBSD just tell them we renamed it for marketing reasons. They should be able to dig that. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:33:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29910 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29902 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-24.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.24]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA30854; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:33:35 GMT Message-ID: <353195BB.CF72D4E4@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:34:03 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > As for me, my background has primarily been in project management, > consulting, and tangible and intangible sales all in computer related > activities. I am self taught in UNIX and by no means an expert. Thus I > am volunteering to work as one of the coordinators of project > positioning or what the hell ever we end up calling this phase of the > project. > > Jordan, I understand that you are very busy, but I think that we'll > need you as an informal advisor at least untill we get on our feet on > the ground a little bit. Your name fills the slot as the project PR > guy and am sure you have strong feelings as to project direction, image > etc., so I defer to you on some of these issues. I have read the > information on the project from the web site and have a feel for some > of this stuff. I would invite all volunteers, especially those > writting press releases and advertising things to digest this and pass > it on to those people that you are working with. > > Appears to me that there are many issues that need to be addressed > before we go running off half cocked an waisting motion through > duplication of effort and so forth. At this point we have resources: > our time, a top notch develop team, the best version of UNIX -- oops > sorry SCO I didn't say that -- and a web site with much good > information, and there are commercial publications devoted to Berkeley > UNIX and greg's The Complete FreeBSD. And these incredible mailing lists. Usenet is a zoo, but these -- I think -- are the key to FreeBSD's success. Start a freebsd-plug@freebsd.org list, and maybe Jordan and DG and some of the other core guys can give us some insight as to how they run core from all over the world. > > There are legal and private entities that we have to interface with. I > believe that FreeBSD is incorporated as is Walnut Creek CDROM We don;t I think it is very important for FreeBSD, Inc.'s incorporation to be switched to 501c3, not just so we who contribute can get a writeoff, but it's in a legal way kind of like releasing your source code. It's also a vehicle for encouraging _more_ contributions, perhaps providing more of what Greg's thinking of without promising anything except what we've got... the best thing in x86 computing. > Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come > forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and > would like to do. Time commitments at this point at least are open to > your individual capabilities. I have retained your messages as some of > you had already appeard to commit to certain actions. That response is > extremely encouraging. > Awwww, gee. Big Bro da boss be watching. Yes, teacher, I wrote my assignment. > So far we have a great start. Yes we do need more help. You folks > that live in countries other than the United States your help is > especially important. You will be helping the FreeBSD project that is > true, but you will also be spreading the word to your countryman who > hunger for technology, that FreeBSD is the best platform to use to > learn system software, provide internet access service, and as a > development platform. Documentation on how to install and setup an > operating system needs to be written in native languages. Your efforts > will improve the lives of people all over the world through helping > them to obtain and learn to use modern technology. Guys like Ruslan and Amancio and so many others add a life to this project that I see makes it one of the best things America has _ever_ done for the world. And it has nothing to do with the government!!! It no longer belongs to America. It is of the world. Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:36:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00597 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00581 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07182; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130436.WAA07182@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:36:09 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: FreeBSD commercial support In-Reply-To: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:21 PM 4/13/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". "Gold" would imply a premium product. Let's leave that one for some enterprising soul who wants to do with the OS what Caldera has done with Linux. As for the "2000" bit: I'd be turned off by bad associations: Berke Breathed's "Banana 2000" (Ptui! ;-), the Y2K problem, and Microsoft's product nomenclature. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:42:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02131 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27825; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:42:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:42:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199804130442.VAA27825@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <19980413132146.H28708.kithrup.freebsd.chat@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:13:20PM -0600 Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". Don't forget that "BSD" is a registered trademark of BSD, Inc. And they did that for the good of mankind, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:46:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02534 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02526 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07296; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:46:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130446.WAA07296@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:46:03 -0600 To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Frank Pawlak From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <353195BB.CF72D4E4@ibm.net> References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:34 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >I think it is very important for FreeBSD, Inc.'s incorporation to be >switched to 501c3, not just so we who contribute can get a writeoff, but >it's in a legal way kind of like releasing your source code. Bzzzzzt.... Sorry, but Uncle Sam won't buy that. 501(c)(3) status is only given to organizations that are charitable (as in giving EXCLUSIVELY to the needy) or education (as in quadrangles, ivy-covered halls, accreditation, currcicula, etc.). It could be a mutual benefit society, though -- possibly 501(c)(4). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:48:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02991 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-107.airnet.net [209.64.77.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02946 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02531 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:47:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353198D6.9B21EBCC@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:47:18 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <19980412211215.43655@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:13:20PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages > > the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." > > What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of > > quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that > > professionals support it. > > > > Having a version of FreeBSD labeled "BSD Professional" or "BSD Office" or > whatever would be helpful. Most suit types have a problem with a system > labeled free anything. Of course, pointing out that the Solaris or HP/UX > system that they just paid big bucks for contains lots of freeware like DNS, > sendmail, elm, X, emacs, etc. does not make points with them. > > However, if they ever figure out that "BSD Office" is in fact FreeBSD just > tell them we renamed it for marketing reasons. They should be able to dig > that. I want to say this: FreeBSD Forever! Don't rename it. It's a *good* name. Just like my signature... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:48:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03329 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03212 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07346; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:48:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130448.WAA07346@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:48:33 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <199804130442.VAA27825@kithrup.com> References: <19980413132146.H28708.kithrup.freebsd.chat@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:42 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >Don't forget that "BSD" is a registered trademark of BSD, Inc. I was under the impression that without the "I" or "Inc." immediately following the letters "BSD," it was NOT their trademark. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:56:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04161 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04148 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-24.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.24]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA67514; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:56:35 GMT Message-ID: <35319B1F.9D61370F@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:57:03 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <199804130446.WAA07296@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Bzzzzzt.... Sorry, but Uncle Sam won't buy that. 501(c)(3) status is only > given to organizations that are charitable (as in giving EXCLUSIVELY to > the needy) or education (as in quadrangles, ivy-covered halls, accreditation, > currcicula, etc.). It could be a mutual benefit society, though -- > possibly 501(c)(4). > > --Brett I beg to differ, Brett. The definition of 501c3 is very broad. Witness the political hacks Gingrich did with 501c3. You can 'educate' people about anything in almost any way. You can even make (limited) amounts of money commercially from it, as long as the money -- except for salaries and those needn't be tiny -- goes back into the educational purpose. It's not just for schools. There are lots of other 'educational' non-profits out there that are 501c3 for cats, birds, model railroaders, why not Chuckie and his toy? [aside: as a Christian, I wish our daemon didn't look so much like The demon. I relish the historical aspect of Berkeley et al, but I wish we would go with 'The Power to Serve'.] I suggest we ask perl.org, XFree86, etc. and see if they've done any research. There was a really good book written by Nolo Bene Press up in the bay area about Non Profits. After all, we're not running drugs here and that's the only thing the Feds care about any more. =--> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 21:57:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04158 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04876; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:01:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980413010126.17354@vmunix.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:01:26 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130436.WAA07182@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804130436.WAA07182@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 10:36:09PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 10:36:09PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:21 PM 4/13/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". > > "Gold" would imply a premium product. Let's leave that one for > some enterprising soul who wants to do with the OS what Caldera > has done with Linux. > > As for the "2000" bit: I'd be turned off by bad associations: > Berke Breathed's "Banana 2000" (Ptui! ;-), the Y2K problem, and > Microsoft's product nomenclature. First of all I think the "main branch" or whatever you call it should remain "FreeBSD". Renaming should happen for supported version of FreeBSD. I agree that "Gold" and "2000" are not the best choices. I think you need to pick a base name, upon which you can afix various endings.. It's really too bad OpenBSD is gone.. ;-) Like: Bad Ass BSD - Desktop Edition Bad Ass BSD - Enterprise Server Edition My reasoning is that this way you could pre-package FreeBSD setup for specific environments. I'm assuming here of course that these would be products that you're trying to sell outside of the base "FreeBSD" product. In this manner, you bundle the Desktop Eidition with Xig's X server pre-configured, with X firing up in VGA mode with KDE's 'kdm' starting up automagically. It comes with sound card support build into the kernel, etc, etc.. The server version comes ready with Apache *running*, PHP3 built into Apache, perhaps the MAX_USERS variable in the kernel set a little higher, Samba *running*, etc, etc.. Basically pre-configured FreeBSDs witha few add-ons (BRU 2000 backup for example, Xig x servers, maybe some GUI sysadmin things, etc.) and "read to go" out of the box for a couple popular environments. Microsoft, SUn, and others are having pretty good success doing this, I don't see why it wouldn't work for FreeBSD. Anyhow, I can't come up with a name to replace "Bad Ass BSD" above. :-) Time to subscribe to the supporters group. :) -Mark P.S. I would love to basically create a company selling the above products. Essentially a Caldera/Red Hat based on FreeBSD. I know it would fly.. My only problem is that the banks don't like giving $$$'s to 22 year old graduates... :-) > > --Brett > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:06:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05516 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05494 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07529; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130506.XAA07529@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:06:06 -0600 To: dwilde1@ibm.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. Cc: Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <35319B1F.9D61370F@ibm.net> References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <199804130446.WAA07296@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:57 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >I beg to differ, Brett. The definition of 501c3 is very broad. Witness >the political hacks Gingrich did with 501c3. You can 'educate' people >about anything in almost any way. You can even make (limited) amounts of >money commercially from it, as long as the money -- except for salaries >and those needn't be tiny -- goes back into the educational purpose. Not so -- especially not nowadays. The IRS is narrowing the definition and the courts are supporting it. For example, quite a few computer users' groups and community networks whose purpose is to teach people about the Internet have lost their 501(c)(3) status. The Gingrich Follies may be partially to blame. I experienced this first-hand; an educational organization I founded was initially given the go-ahead for 501(c)(3) and then booted out. We pretty much had our choice between 501(c)(4) and 501(c)(12). We took the latter because it had fewer restrictions on activity. >There was a really good book written by Nolo Bene Press up in >the bay area about Non Profits. That's Nolo Press, and they have two books on non-profits. Unfortunately, as we found out, they were overly optimistic about one's chances of getting a positive determination. >After all, we're not running drugs here >and that's the only thing the Feds care about any more. Not so at all. The IRS now cares about restricting organizations' tax exemptions -- a lot. They're re-examining organizations that have had 501(c)(3)'s for decades. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:13:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06235 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jaresh-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.86.230]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id FAA29149; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:13:01 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02866; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:12:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130512.AAA02866@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:12:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <353195BB.CF72D4E4@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Apr, Don Wilde wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >> As for me, my background has primarily been in project management, >> consulting, and tangible and intangible sales all in computer related >> activities. I am self taught in UNIX and by no means an expert. Thus I >> am volunteering to work as one of the coordinators of project >> positioning or what the hell ever we end up calling this phase of the >> project. >> >> Jordan, I understand that you are very busy, but I think that we'll >> need you as an informal advisor at least untill we get on our feet on >> the ground a little bit. Your name fills the slot as the project PR >> guy and am sure you have strong feelings as to project direction, image >> etc., so I defer to you on some of these issues. I have read the >> information on the project from the web site and have a feel for some >> of this stuff. I would invite all volunteers, especially those >> writting press releases and advertising things to digest this and pass >> it on to those people that you are working with. >> >> Appears to me that there are many issues that need to be addressed >> before we go running off half cocked an waisting motion through >> duplication of effort and so forth. At this point we have resources: >> our time, a top notch develop team, the best version of UNIX -- oops >> sorry SCO I didn't say that -- and a web site with much good >> information, and there are commercial publications devoted to Berkeley >> UNIX and greg's The Complete FreeBSD. > > And these incredible mailing lists. Usenet is a zoo, but these -- I > think -- are the key to FreeBSD's success. Start a > freebsd-plug@freebsd.org list, and maybe Jordan and DG and some of the > other core guys can give us some insight as to how they run core from > all over the world. >> >> There are legal and private entities that we have to interface with. I >> believe that FreeBSD is incorporated as is Walnut Creek CDROM We don;t > > I think it is very important for FreeBSD, Inc.'s incorporation to be > switched to 501c3, not just so we who contribute can get a writeoff, but > it's in a legal way kind of like releasing your source code. It's also a > vehicle for encouraging _more_ contributions, perhaps providing more of > what Greg's thinking of without promising anything except what we've > got... the best thing in x86 computing. > >> Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come >> forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and >> would like to do. Time commitments at this point at least are open to >> your individual capabilities. I have retained your messages as some of >> you had already appeard to commit to certain actions. That response is >> extremely encouraging. >> > Awwww, gee. Big Bro da boss be watching. Yes, teacher, I wrote my > assignment. Your comments above are appreciated. However, I am not sure how to understand the one immediately above, and am taking it as a snide remark. Look lets get the lines straight right up front. If I am taking the remark in the wrong the line is open for further dialog. If not understand this, I am trying to start a volunteer effort to help the project, and right now my position is just that. I don't have a clue who you are or what you do for the project. But understand this, I am not much on the suckup, the ego massage or bullshit tolerance when I get paid for what I do, and am less so when I am doing volunteer work. If you don't have something constructive to add, then here is a quarter call and tell it to someone who gives a shit. > >> So far we have a great start. Yes we do need more help. You folks >> that live in countries other than the United States your help is >> especially important. You will be helping the FreeBSD project that is >> true, but you will also be spreading the word to your countryman who >> hunger for technology, that FreeBSD is the best platform to use to >> learn system software, provide internet access service, and as a >> development platform. Documentation on how to install and setup an >> operating system needs to be written in native languages. Your efforts >> will improve the lives of people all over the world through helping >> them to obtain and learn to use modern technology. > > Guys like Ruslan and Amancio and so many others add a life to this > project that I see makes it one of the best things America has _ever_ > done for the world. And it has nothing to do with the > government!!! It no longer belongs to America. It is of the > world. > > Don -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:14:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06483 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-92.airnet.net [209.64.77.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06448 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02790 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:13:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35319F15.C11C9541@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:13:57 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <199804130446.WAA07296@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:34 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > >I think it is very important for FreeBSD, Inc.'s incorporation to be > >switched to 501c3, not just so we who contribute can get a writeoff, but > >it's in a legal way kind of like releasing your source code. > > Bzzzzzt.... Sorry, but Uncle Sam won't buy that. 501(c)(3) status is only > given to organizations that are charitable (as in giving EXCLUSIVELY to > the needy) or education (as in quadrangles, ivy-covered halls, accreditation, > currcicula, etc.). It could be a mutual benefit society, though -- > possibly 501(c)(4). > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message A local hamfest attempted a switch from non-profit to for-profit sometime back. They were originally for-profit, god knows what made them switch. The IRS felt it was suited to fine them back taxes for the non-profit years. This came to ~$10,000 US. Beware of the Beast.... PS: Please read the list charters, specifically the part about CC: headers. http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:24:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07446 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07437 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jaresh-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.86.230]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id FAA29566; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:24:20 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02877; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:24:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130524.AAA02877@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:24:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <353195BB.CF72D4E4@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don, I think I owe you and everyone on the group an appology. I hammered you and I was clearly out of line. I got your last post and now I realize that you were being funny, and I have made an ass out of mysef. I hope you'll forgive and remain with the project. I should have seen that you were pulling my chain. Untill I get to know you guys, make your humor obvious, and for my part I promise to hold fire and wait to see what is really going on. To one and all, please accept my most sincere appologies. Frank On 12 Apr, Don Wilde wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >> As for me, my background has primarily been in project management, >> consulting, and tangible and intangible sales all in computer related >> activities. I am self taught in UNIX and by no means an expert. Thus I >> am volunteering to work as one of the coordinators of project >> positioning or what the hell ever we end up calling this phase of the >> project. >> >> Jordan, I understand that you are very busy, but I think that we'll >> need you as an informal advisor at least untill we get on our feet on >> the ground a little bit. Your name fills the slot as the project PR >> guy and am sure you have strong feelings as to project direction, image >> etc., so I defer to you on some of these issues. I have read the >> information on the project from the web site and have a feel for some >> of this stuff. I would invite all volunteers, especially those >> writting press releases and advertising things to digest this and pass >> it on to those people that you are working with. >> >> Appears to me that there are many issues that need to be addressed >> before we go running off half cocked an waisting motion through >> duplication of effort and so forth. At this point we have resources: >> our time, a top notch develop team, the best version of UNIX -- oops >> sorry SCO I didn't say that -- and a web site with much good >> information, and there are commercial publications devoted to Berkeley >> UNIX and greg's The Complete FreeBSD. > > And these incredible mailing lists. Usenet is a zoo, but these -- I > think -- are the key to FreeBSD's success. Start a > freebsd-plug@freebsd.org list, and maybe Jordan and DG and some of the > other core guys can give us some insight as to how they run core from > all over the world. >> >> There are legal and private entities that we have to interface with. I >> believe that FreeBSD is incorporated as is Walnut Creek CDROM We don;t > > I think it is very important for FreeBSD, Inc.'s incorporation to be > switched to 501c3, not just so we who contribute can get a writeoff, but > it's in a legal way kind of like releasing your source code. It's also a > vehicle for encouraging _more_ contributions, perhaps providing more of > what Greg's thinking of without promising anything except what we've > got... the best thing in x86 computing. > >> Along with this I am asking those that have posted their ideas to come >> forth and at least set out their skills inventory and what they can and >> would like to do. Time commitments at this point at least are open to >> your individual capabilities. I have retained your messages as some of >> you had already appeard to commit to certain actions. That response is >> extremely encouraging. >> > Awwww, gee. Big Bro da boss be watching. Yes, teacher, I wrote my > assignment. > >> So far we have a great start. Yes we do need more help. You folks >> that live in countries other than the United States your help is >> especially important. You will be helping the FreeBSD project that is >> true, but you will also be spreading the word to your countryman who >> hunger for technology, that FreeBSD is the best platform to use to >> learn system software, provide internet access service, and as a >> development platform. Documentation on how to install and setup an >> operating system needs to be written in native languages. Your efforts >> will improve the lives of people all over the world through helping >> them to obtain and learn to use modern technology. > > Guys like Ruslan and Amancio and so many others add a life to this > project that I see makes it one of the best things America has _ever_ > done for the world. And it has nothing to do with the > government!!! It no longer belongs to America. It is of the > world. > > Don > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:34:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08776 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19996; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804130533.WAA19996@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Kris Kirby cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:47:18 CDT." <353198D6.9B21EBCC@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:33:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Make sure you never leave the Lab for the real world is different and yes it is a fact of life that some organizations or individuals with a ton of money will judge the product by its name. Amancio > I want to say this: FreeBSD Forever! Don't rename it. It's a *good* > name. Just like my signature... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:40:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09314 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09306 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20048; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804130540.WAA20048@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:13:20 MDT." <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:40:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSD Professional sounds good or BSD Station cheap version then the real "big" and profesional version to be called something like BSD Server. The sad thing about my proposal is that it works. Amancio > I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages > the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." > What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of > quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that > professionals support it. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:44:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09684 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:44:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09651 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07858; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:43:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804130543.XAA07858@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:43:56 -0600 To: Amancio Hasty From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804130540.WAA20048@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:40 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >BSD Professional sounds good or BSD Station cheap version then the >real "big" and profesional version to be called something like >BSD Server. That's it! And, just like NT Workstation and NT Server, they'd really be the same OS. There'd just be a few parameters tweaked. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 22:47:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10338 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jaresh-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.86.230]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id AAA28250; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:46:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02978; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:46:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804130546.AAA02978@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:46:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: New name? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804130540.WAA20048@rah.star-gate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Apr, Amancio Hasty wrote: > BSD Professional sounds good or BSD Station cheap version then the > real "big" and profesional version to be called something like > BSD Server. The sad thing about my proposal is that it works. > > Amancio If I may add my vote it would be for BSD Professional. Tastes great, less filling Cheers, Frank > >> I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages >> the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." >> What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of >> quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that >> professionals support it. >> >> --Brett >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 23:02:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12502 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA12463 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id XAA33420 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:01:57 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id XAA31148 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I happen to like FreeBSD as I consider Free to mean freedom and not necessarily "with out cost". I concede that this may not be so with the suits. If there is a name change, let the name of a specific product change. I think any name change to the organization at large should NOT occur. FreeBSD Inc should remain FreeBSD Inc. I don't particularly care for titles that try to be cute or catchy. This is a personal opinion. I like titles that convey a meaning which is representative of the product. Of the titles promoted so far, Mr. Glass' "BSD Professional" is my favorite. BSD excels at serving and networking right? Let's use that to our advantage in choosing a name. Consider the following "box" products and there titles. These all display the BSD pedigree. They all convey a meaning. BSD Webserver - runs with apache out of the box BSD Fileserver - runs with samba right out of the box BSD Firewall - runs ipfw or the like right out of the box BSD Nameserver - runs BIND right out of the box BSD Complete Server - Does all of the above We have all of these technologies already in our coffers. We could include existing O'Reilly and Lehey Megapublications Incorporates (or SSC in Sambas case) documentation in a box set. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 23:14:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13501 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20262; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804130613.XAA20262@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Frank Pawlak cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:46:42 CDT." <199804130546.AAA02978@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:13:57 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Personally, I am not too keen on the vote thing rather I am more into a business thing. Station vs Server naming schemes sets the stage to create two separate product lines whose packaging can target different markets and initially as Brett pointed out we can charge a few extra hundred dollars for the Server version just as Microsoft has done by tweaking a few parameters 8) What I would consider the Station version needs a ton of work so in our case it may not be possible specially without business applications such as spreadsheets, word processors , etc... hwoever if we do managed to get a nice office suite and can price the OS / Apps at a reasonable price it can be the start of something really nice. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 23:43:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16555 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16546 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:42:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23862 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:12:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00359; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:12:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980413161252.R28708@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:12:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD commercial support , FreeBSD Chat Subject: BSD copyrights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Somebody suggested that BSD was a copyright of BSDI. That's not the case, at least as far as I can tell after reading http://www.bsdi.com/info/disclaimer: BSD/OS(tm), BSD/386(tm), BSDI(tm), MailFilter(tm), the BSDI logo, and the Lizard logo are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. in the U.S.A. and other countries. The BSD Daemon is Copyright 1988 by Marshall Kirk McKusick. All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of, and are used to identify products and services of, their respective owners. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 12 23:59:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17965 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-38.airnet.net [209.64.77.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17960 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03557 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:58:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3531B78D.6BD043FA@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:58:21 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130533.WAA19996@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Make sure you never leave the Lab for the real world is different and > yes it is a fact of life that some organizations or individuals with > a ton of money will judge the product by its name. Oh well, just so long as *my* copy says FreeBSD... Ah, ignorance; the Dilbert principle is at work. Leave the lab? But I like my flourescent tan... So white and pasty... (Hey! This *is* chat...) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:29:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13771 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13734 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03504; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:46 +0930." <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:28:58 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Sun, 12 April 1998 at 21:13:20 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages >> the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." >> What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of >> quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that >> professionals support it. > >This was one of the names I suggested on the -supporters group. Well, >BSD Pro. Yes, on that list we agree that the "Free" in the name is a >disadvantage when "selling" into a corporate environment. > >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. I think I can say with some certainty that we will never change the name away from FreeBSD. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:35:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15630 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15625 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17843 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:35:33 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:35:32 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > > > >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". > > All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. I think I can say with some > certainty that we will never change the name away from FreeBSD. > Would it be possible to retain the name FreeBSD (which I wouldn't like to change anyway) and sell a product labelled as BSD Gold, BSD Pro etc... in addition to the FreeBSD 2.2.6 currently sold? Just my 2 cents Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:35:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15898 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15788 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03593; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804130935.CAA03593@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:48:33 MDT." <199804130448.WAA07346@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:35:34 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 09:42 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > >>Don't forget that "BSD" is a registered trademark of BSD, Inc. > >I was under the impression that without the "I" or "Inc." immediately >following the letters "BSD," it was NOT their trademark. That would be a bad impression, then. "BSD" is a registered trademark of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. "FreeBSD", "NetBSD", and "OpenBSD" are also seperately trademarked by various entities - these were all given away to each of these groups by BSDI. Creating another "BSD", even if it were just a name change, would be a significant legal problem, not mention a major marketing mistake. It's taken us five years to get the name recognition that we have now, and changing the name now would be suicide. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:39:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16631 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16626 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03635; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804130939.CAA03635@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD commercial support , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:12:52 +0930." <19980413161252.R28708@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:39:17 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Somebody suggested that BSD was a copyright of BSDI. It is. Their disclaimer is incomplete. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:45:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17073 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03678; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804130945.CAA03678@implode.root.com> To: Andrew Perry cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:35:32 +1000." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:45:03 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >> > >> >Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". >> >> All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. I think I can say with some >> certainty that we will never change the name away from FreeBSD. >> > >Would it be possible to retain the name FreeBSD (which I wouldn't like to >change anyway) and sell a product labelled as BSD Gold, BSD Pro etc... in >addition to the FreeBSD 2.2.6 currently sold? ...it would still violate the trademark. A product name like FreeBSD/Pro is definately not a problem, and is even (extremely) likely, in fact. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 02:52:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17616 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:52:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24087; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:21:17 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA15472; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:21:15 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:21:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dg@root.com Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: New name? References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 02:28:58AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 2:28:58 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >> On Sun, 12 April 1998 at 21:13:20 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> I think that, a substantial number of messages ago, someone messages >>> the possibility of a name change that made FreeBSD sound less "cheap." >>> What sort of image would a new name project? Perhaps an aura of >>> quality -- such as "BSD Professional?" (This would also suggest that >>> professionals support it. >> >> This was one of the names I suggested on the -supporters group. Well, >> BSD Pro. Yes, on that list we agree that the "Free" in the name is a >> disadvantage when "selling" into a corporate environment. >> >> Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". > > All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. I think I can say with some > certainty that we will never change the name away from FreeBSD. This definitely wasn't the intention. Well, not mine, anyway. I think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is not really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody discussing them?). If some customers won't take FreeBSD because of its name, I don't have any particular problems with selling them substantially the same product with a different name. I don't think this is a good reason to change the mainstream name, however, and I suspect that as these customers mature they will appreciate that the packaging isn't as important as the content. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 03:43:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23863 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ceia.nordier.com (m1-10-dbn.dial-up.net [196.34.155.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23855 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:43:08 GMT (envelope-from rnordier@iafrica.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id MAA11727; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:42:36 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199804131042.MAA11727@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-Reply-To: <199804130939.CAA03635@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Apr 13, 98 02:39:17 am" To: supporters@nanyang-computer.com (FreeBSD commercial support) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:42:34 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > >Somebody suggested that BSD was a copyright of BSDI. > > It is. Their disclaimer is incomplete. This is really an issue of a trademark rather than a copyright. A trademark is fundamentally different from a copyright or a patent, in that there is no automatic protection afforded by the state. Because new works of "art" or "artifice", and new ideas, are social benefits, the state effectively says, "Go ahead, and don't worry, and for X years we'll grant you protection." Trademarks aren't social benefits. So there's no automatic protection (and so, incidentally, also no expiry date). To establish a trademark, you have to find some token which unambiguously identifies your product within a particular domain. Thereafter you have to fight tooth and nail to maintain that association. This (pretty much literally) means registering a protest every time you become aware that someone is using your trademark inappropriately. Inappropriate use includes someone using your chosen token as though it refers to a generic class of objects of which your product is just an instance. The essential point is that defense of trademarks must be readily apparent, continuous (no lapses), and allow of no precedents. There are many textbook cases of trademarks that have been "lost" to companies (who were lax in defending them) by becoming merely generic terms. When AT&T still owned UNIX, they provided a good example of how things should be done. If FoodleWare came up with a "ProUNIX" package, they would probably have been obliged to include the following disclaimer: UNIX is a registered trademark of UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. FoodleWare is not affiliated with AT&T. Because "BSD" doesn't unambiguously map to BSDI; because "BSD" does refer to a generic class of operating systems; and because BSDI has no visible record of tenaciously defending the letters "BSD" as its sole property (in the OS domain), trademark issues should not be a concern. -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 04:18:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29145 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:18:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29129 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:18:07 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04136; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804131112.EAA04136@implode.root.com> To: Robert Nordier cc: supporters@nanyang-computer.com (FreeBSD commercial support), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Apr 1998 12:42:34 +0200." <199804131042.MAA11727@ceia.nordier.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:12:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Because "BSD" doesn't unambiguously map to BSDI; because "BSD" does >refer to a generic class of operating systems; and because BSDI >has no visible record of tenaciously defending the letters "BSD" >as its sole property (in the OS domain), trademark issues should >not be a concern. You're welcome to your opinion, but BSD is nonetheless a trademark of BSD, Inc., and we'll be respecting that. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 05:59:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18646 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18637 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:58:57 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-209.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.209]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA34678; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:58:54 GMT Message-ID: <35320BF8.37BDE306@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:58:32 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > I happen to like FreeBSD as I consider Free to mean freedom and not > necessarily "with out cost". I concede that this may not be so with the > suits. > > If there is a name change, let the name of a specific product change. I > think any name change to the organization at large should NOT occur. > FreeBSD Inc should remain FreeBSD Inc. > I second this. FreeBSD means a lot to me as what it is. If you want to make a corporate version, rename that, but never take the effort away from FreeBSD. That's what scares me about all of these threads: splintering. > Consider the following "box" products and there titles. These all > display the BSD pedigree. They all convey a meaning. > > BSD Webserver - runs with apache out of the box > BSD Fileserver - runs with samba right out of the box > BSD Firewall - runs ipfw or the like right out of the box > BSD Nameserver - runs BIND right out of the box > BSD Complete Server - Does all of the above > > We have all of these technologies already in our coffers. This is not a bad idea, but add 'FreeBSD Personal' for the home users. Runs X, Mozilla, and Apache, has Staroffice installed, etc. Add 'FreeBSD University' for MSCS students... > We could include existing O'Reilly and Lehey Megapublications > Incorporates (or SSC in Sambas case) documentation in a box set. Now _that_ would get expensive! I already have most of them, and there's a lot of ORA BSD/GNU books, not to mention A-W! Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 06:12:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20333 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from postoffice.onu.edu (postoffice.onu.edu [140.228.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20326 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:12:11 GMT (envelope-from n-ludban@onu.edu) Received: from austin.onu.edu (austin.onu.edu [140.228.10.1]) by postoffice.onu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA02401 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:12:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Neil Ludban To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <199804130935.CAA03593@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [sorry, I lost all the CC's to the news gateway] How about a language change to Latin- GratisBSD -- say "Great Is BSD" :-) I'm not in favour of a legal name change, but I think a well planned day or week long 'net wide promotion of "GratisBSD" would make a great publicity stunt. --Neil On 13 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >At 09:42 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > >>Don't forget that "BSD" is a registered trademark of BSD, Inc. > > > >I was under the impression that without the "I" or "Inc." immediately > >following the letters "BSD," it was NOT their trademark. > > That would be a bad impression, then. "BSD" is a registered trademark > of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. "FreeBSD", "NetBSD", and "OpenBSD" are > also seperately trademarked by various entities - these were all given > away to each of these groups by BSDI. Creating another "BSD", even if > it were just a name change, would be a significant legal problem, not > mention a major marketing mistake. It's taken us five years to get the > name recognition that we have now, and changing the name now would be > suicide. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 06:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20633 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20628 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:13:28 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-209.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.209]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA71038; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:13:25 GMT Message-ID: <35320F60.F3C550D2@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:13:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <199804130524.AAA02877@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org apology accepted, as I said privately. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 07:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01384 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:23:34 GMT (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03629; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:22:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:22:29 +0100 From: James Raynard To: supporters@lemis.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) Reply-To: supporters@lemis.com References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I > think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is not > really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody discussing > them?). Exactly. I'm amazed no-one seems to have even asked, let alone addressed the following obvious questions (at least, they seem obvious to me): 1. Who are Nan Yang? 2. What exactly are they looking for? 3. How serious are they? 4. What kind of customers do they have? 5. How much time would they expect people to spend on working for them? 6. What (if any) is the difference between working for Nan Yang and being a contractor/consultant for a "normal" agency? 7. What's the best way of getting in touch with them? Instead, we have had a discussion about what name we should put on a hypothetical commercial release, containing some unspecified "bonus" software that no-one appears to have actually written yet, which has finally descended into an absurd row over whether FreeBSD is allowed to change its name or not. I really hope these are just symptoms of initial over-excitement and not an indication of the direction this is going to go. :-( (Yes, I'm excited about this as well, but I'd like to see something actually happen, rather than an initial rash of unrealistic plans followed by complete apathy). James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 07:24:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01664 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01656 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:24:55 GMT (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA19814; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:21:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:21:01 -0600 (MDT) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199804131421.IAA19814@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Nadav Eiron cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I know that. What I meant was a list of *academic* institutions (research > centers, colleges, universities, etc.). > > Nadav The University of California at Berkeley uses FreeBSD for their undergraduate course on Operating Systems. Although the two main teaching assistants for the course last year are large Linux backers (one being the president of the Linux users group on campus), both were instrumental in getting the faculty to choose FreeBSD over Linux for this course. The reasons? Better source code consitency and quality as well as a large body of documentation of the internals of BSD OSes. I know that at least one large lab has been dedicated to FreeBSD since this choice was made, but I do not know if the use of FreeBSD has spread to other courses. Most users performed most of the course work from home on their own PCs. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 07:46:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06087 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06075 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:46:01 GMT (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03475; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:44:51 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <353224E0.A362C6CD@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:44:49 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: supporters@lemis.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Raynard wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > ? > ? I > ? think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is not > ? really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody discussing > ? them?). > > Exactly. I'm amazed no-one seems to have even asked, let alone addressed > the following obvious questions (at least, they seem obvious to me): > > 1. Who are Nan Yang? > 2. What exactly are they looking for? > 3. How serious are they? > 4. What kind of customers do they have? > 5. How much time would they expect people to spend on working for them? > 6. What (if any) is the difference between working for Nan Yang and being > a contractor/consultant for a "normal" agency? > 7. What's the best way of getting in touch with them? > > Instead, we have had a discussion about what name we should put on > a hypothetical commercial release, containing some unspecified > "bonus" software that no-one appears to have actually written yet, > which has finally descended into an absurd row over whether > FreeBSD is allowed to change its name or not. > > I really hope these are just symptoms of initial over-excitement and > not an indication of the direction this is going to go. :-( > > (Yes, I'm excited about this as well, but I'd like to see something > actually happen, rather than an initial rash of unrealistic plans > followed by complete apathy). > I am 100% agree with you. > James > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 07:51:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06866 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06843 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:51:12 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20198; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:50:55 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980414005052.34316@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:50:52 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: James Raynard Cc: supporters@nanyang-computer.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk>; from James Raynard on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 03:22:29PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 03:22:29PM +0100, James Raynard wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is not > > really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody discussing > > them?). It depends which group you're writing to, and reading. When the cc remains pointing to both for so long the issues are bound to become muddled, though that's not necessarily a bad thing if appropriate. But I can't easily tell who is committed to seriously exploring Greg's plan and who's observing only what ends up on -chat and approaching it from that perspective. I do agree, though, that there were quite a few red herrings in both lists at first. > Exactly. I'm amazed no-one seems to have even asked, let alone addressed > the following obvious questions (at least, they seem obvious to me): > > 1. Who are Nan Yang? > 2. What exactly are they looking for? > 3. How serious are they? > 4. What kind of customers do they have? > 5. How much time would they expect people to spend on working for them? > 6. What (if any) is the difference between working for Nan Yang and being > a contractor/consultant for a "normal" agency? > 7. What's the best way of getting in touch with them? I think these were mostly answered earlier on in the supporters mailing list. No doubt Greg will reply there in the morning. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 08:19:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11060 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10956 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:18:52 GMT (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id IAA13312; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980413081819.63818@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:18:19 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: supporters@lemis.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk>; from James Raynard on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 03:22:29PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 03:22:29PM +0100, James Raynard wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I > > think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is not > > really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody discussing > > them?). > > Exactly. I'm amazed no-one seems to have even asked, let alone addressed > the following obvious questions (at least, they seem obvious to me): > > 1. Who are Nan Yang? > 2. What exactly are they looking for? > 3. How serious are they? > 4. What kind of customers do they have? > 5. How much time would they expect people to spend on working for them? > 6. What (if any) is the difference between working for Nan Yang and being > a contractor/consultant for a "normal" agency? > 7. What's the best way of getting in touch with them? > > Instead, we have had a discussion about what name we should put on > a hypothetical commercial release, containing some unspecified > "bonus" software that no-one appears to have actually written yet, > which has finally descended into an absurd row over whether > FreeBSD is allowed to change its name or not. > These are very good questions. As David Greenman has pointed out in other posts the name "BSD" is copyrighted by BSDI and we were given FreeBSD at the time the name BSD was copyrighted. So, as far as I can see, any more talk of changing the name is a waste of time. I would also like to know who is Nan Yang. Are they incorporated in the US? Another issue that need to be addressed is how are we going to get clients. Are they going to be calling them or are we going to be calling ISP and offering support contracts. My $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 08:58:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19866 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19855 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:58:39 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id LAA21154; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:58:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Josef Grosch cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, supporters@nanyang-computer.com Subject: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: <19980413081819.63818@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > > 1. Who are Nan Yang? It's just an alias for greg's company as far as I can see. > > I would also like to know who is Nan Yang. Are they incorporated in the US? > Another issue that need to be addressed is how are we going to get > clients. Are they going to be calling them or are we going to be calling > ISP and offering support contracts. It's clear that the whole idea of a commercial repackaged FreeBSD is a wash. So let's drop that idea. Concentrate on supporting FreeBSD AS IS. Let's concentrate on 3 things: 1) Support Contracts 2) How to deploy phone support 3) Pricing I have already mentioned IMO I think we should clone Cisco's smartnet contracts. I think its a good model to follow. It covers almost every situtaion. And is in general pretty solid. Phone support is a tad tricky. So anyone is more than welcome to chime up how to do this on a volunteer venture. And naturally pricing on different levels of support. Phone, email, onsite, etc.. I think if we focus on these 3 issues we will get a lot more done. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:11:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22226 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:10:52 GMT (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22477; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:10:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804131610.JAA22477@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: Nadav Eiron , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:21:01 MDT." <199804131421.IAA19814@narnia.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:10:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- > Hi, > > I just noticed that the mash sources are finally available > (see http://www-mash.cs.berkeley.edu -- mash is a set of tools with the > same functionality as vat/vic/wb/ etc.) > > They should port relatively easily to FreeBSD, with perhaps the > only minor difficulty that they use OTcl and TclCl, for which i am > not sure if we have a port. > Luigi, All the mash tools ought to compile on FreeBSD. FreeBSD is the primary development platform for mash, so you should not require any porting to get it to compile on a FreeBSD box. Thanks. -Yatin ---- > > I know that. What I meant was a list of *academic* institutions (research > > centers, colleges, universities, etc.). > > > > Nadav > > The University of California at Berkeley uses FreeBSD for their > undergraduate course on Operating Systems. Although the two main > teaching assistants for the course last year are large Linux backers > (one being the president of the Linux users group on campus), both > were instrumental in getting the faculty to choose FreeBSD over Linux > for this course. The reasons? Better source code consitency and > quality as well as a large body of documentation of the internals > of BSD OSes. I know that at least one large lab has been dedicated > to FreeBSD since this choice was made, but I do not know if the use > of FreeBSD has spread to other courses. Most users performed most > of the course work from home on their own PCs. > > -- > Justin > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:35:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28955 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:35:02 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14380; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:34:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804131634.KAA14380@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:27:46 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:00 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >I happen to like FreeBSD as I consider Free to mean freedom and not >necessarily "with out cost". I concede that this may not be so with the >suits. > >If there is a name change, let the name of a specific product change. I >think any name change to the organization at large should NOT occur. >FreeBSD Inc should remain FreeBSD Inc. Seconded. I think that the product names should go upscale, but the name of the group should still reflect the aim of producting freely redistributable, freely reusable code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:35:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28994 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28969 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:35:09 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14384; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:34:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804131634.KAA14384@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:29:48 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD commercial support , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-Reply-To: <19980413161252.R28708@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:12 PM 4/13/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Somebody suggested that BSD was a copyright You mean "trademark...." >of BSDI. That's not the >case, at least as far as I can tell after reading >http://www.bsdi.com/info/disclaimer: > > BSD/OS(tm), BSD/386(tm), BSDI(tm), MailFilter(tm), the BSDI logo, > and the Lizard logo are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, > Inc. in the U.S.A. and other countries. > > The BSD Daemon is Copyright 1988 by Marshall Kirk McKusick. > > All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of, and > are used to identify products and services of, their respective > owners. > >Greg Yep. If anyone owns rights to the acronym BSD, it's the UC Trustees, and it appears that they've abandoned those rights. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:35:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29150 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29075 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:35:32 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14388; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:34:54 -0600 To: dg@root.com, Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD commercial support In-Reply-To: <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:28 AM 4/13/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: > All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. David: If this were so, then FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD would as well. (A trademark that incorporates another is considered an infringement if it could create confusion in the marketplace.) Likewise, if it were so, you'd be able to find a trademark registration for "BSD" (no "I" or "Inc.") in Thomas' Register. If you can't, the letters are fair game. I believe that the only organization that ever had any right to the letters "BSD" *might* have been the UC Trustees, and they have now abandoned any rights in them. I agree that the ORGANIZATION should probably retain the name FreeBSD, but I see nothing wrong with the notion of different product names. In fact, I think it's vital for positioning. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:40:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01102 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01056 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:40:33 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14472; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804131640.KAA14472@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:40:24 -0600 To: dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804130935.CAA03593@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:35 AM 4/13/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >It's taken us five years to get the >name recognition that we have now, and changing the name now would be >suicide. Er, WHAT recognition? When I mention FreeBSD, very few professionals even know what I'm talking about. And the "Free," the internal rhyme, and the similarity to the colloquialism "freebie" give the initial impresssion that it's a toy, a game, something cheap, or something that's less than serious. It's easy not to see this if one is too close, but them's the facts. There's MUCH more to be gained than to be lost by using better names and mounting a serious publicity campaign. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:44:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02152 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02082 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:44:05 GMT (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw [OUT])) id JAA15849; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 1.0)) id JAA27318; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:42:27 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA18782; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:42:25 -0600 Message-ID: <35324096.1E365B2A@xylan.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:43:02 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <351AEF41.4F70237E@xylan.com> <19980326210133.22728@snark.thyrsus.com> <13595.56491.667048.54397@salty.slcyp> <19980409121849.51551@snark.thyrsus.com> <13612.62597.457605.646138@salty.slcyp> <19980410164435.56510@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thu, 9 April 1998 at 10:20:46 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Eric S. Raymond writes: > >> Yes, please do. Bear in mind, however, who I'm trying to impress. It won't > >> help us to list anybody who's doing less than a million dollars a year in > >> business -- and I need to be able to *quote* that run rate on the page. > > > > Thanks for providing clarification. > > Have I missed the beginning of this thread, or is it the first we've > seen in -chat? In which case, permit me to aske what this is all > about. Sorry, I guess I kind of blind-sided the chat list here. Mr. Raymond is compiling a list of companies who successfully use open source products to do business with. The purpose of this list is to convince corporate USA that open source products, like FreeBSD, are reliable business tools, not just hacker playtoys. Obviously, most of us here feel this is true of FreeBSD, and I would hate to have it completely skipped on this list. Thanks for bringing this up, Greg. -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:45:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02439 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:45:17 GMT (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02901; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:45:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35324114.6ECF7152@plutotech.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:45:08 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804131640.KAA14472@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ... the internal rhyme, ... One former coworker thought it was called "Fribius-D" until he finally saw it in print. -- Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 09:52:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04199 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:52:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04140 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:51:59 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa06181; 13 Apr 98 12:51 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15853; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28914; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:51:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:51:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: FreeBSD commercial support cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-Reply-To: <199804130939.CAA03635@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >Somebody suggested that BSD was a copyright of BSDI. > > It is. Their disclaimer is incomplete. > > -DG BSDi didn't exist until well after "BSD UNIX" was in common usage in the technical community and is commonly used today to refer to a generic class of services and OS's. Did BSDi buy "BSD" from UCB? Maybe I'm forgetting something, but isn't this the same situation as nylons/stockings, xerox/photocopy, kleenex/facial tissue, etc.? The term predated BSDi and applies to a genneral class of software. It seems an untenable position to me. I'm not arguing that we have the resources to do anything about it, but it doesn't seem like they can claim ownership either. Which was first out of the gate, 386BSD or BSD/386? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 10:16:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09534 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09439 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:16:48 GMT (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id VAA02863; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:15:33 +0400 (MSD) Posted-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:15:33 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19980413211532.20377@demos.su> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:15:32 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:34:54AM -0600 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But won't calling products with names, which include *BSD* lead to people will flounder (?) two products, the one from FreeBSD Inc., and another, from BSDi? I mean names like 'BSD Gold', 'BSD Housewife-2000 Eleet'? On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:34:54AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: # At 02:28 AM 4/13/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: # # > All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. # # David: # # If this were so, then FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD would as well. (A # trademark that incorporates another is considered an infringement if # it could create confusion in the marketplace.) # # Likewise, if it were so, you'd be able to find a trademark registration # for "BSD" (no "I" or "Inc.") in Thomas' Register. If you can't, the # letters are fair game. # # I believe that the only organization that ever had any right to the letters # "BSD" *might* have been the UC Trustees, and they have now abandoned any # rights in them. # # I agree that the ORGANIZATION should probably retain the name FreeBSD, but # I see nothing wrong with the notion of different product names. In fact, # I think it's vital for positioning. # # --Brett Glass # # # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org # with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 10:26:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10972 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:26:20 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15071; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804131725.LAA15071@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:25:47 -0600 To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980413211532.20377@demos.su> References: <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:15 PM 4/13/98 +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: >But won't calling products with names, which include *BSD* lead to people >will flounder (?) two products, the one from FreeBSD Inc., and another, >from BSDi? I mean names like 'BSD Gold', 'BSD Housewife-2000 Eleet'? Not if the names indicate the purpose and positioning of the product. If this is done, it actually makes it easier for end users to sort things out. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 10:33:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12452 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12425 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:33:30 GMT (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id VAA03346; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:33:23 +0400 (MSD) Posted-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:33:23 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19980413213322.42076@demos.su> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:33:22 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> <19980413211532.20377@demos.su> <199804131725.LAA15071@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199804131725.LAA15071@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:25:47AM -0600 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:25:47AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: # At 09:15 PM 4/13/98 +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: # >But won't calling products with names, which include *BSD* lead to people # >will flounder (?) two products, the one from FreeBSD Inc., and another, # >from BSDi? I mean names like 'BSD Gold', 'BSD Housewife-2000 Eleet'? # # Not if the names indicate the purpose and positioning of the product. # If this is done, it actually makes it easier for end users to sort # things out. What's wrong with the 'FreeBSD for Little'/'FreeBSD for Housewives' than? Why BSD? The name "FreeBSD" indicates one of the main of [political] differencies from other BSD derived OS's, afaiu. And it was known (not very good, as we can see now) for years. Hence, we could just release different versions with "FreeBSD" string in it's names, right? # --Brett Glass -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 10:38:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13648 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13567 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:38:37 GMT (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA14509; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:35:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199804131735.NAA14509@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: New name? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804131725.LAA15071@lariat.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Apr 13, 98 11:25:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > At 09:15 PM 4/13/98 +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > >But won't calling products with names, which include *BSD* lead to people > >will flounder (?) two products, the one from FreeBSD Inc., and another, > >from BSDi? I mean names like 'BSD Gold', 'BSD Housewife-2000 Eleet'? > > Not if the names indicate the purpose and positioning of the product. > If this is done, it actually makes it easier for end users to sort > things out. > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Well, having lived through and a ton of Unix names I tend to think the positioning is more through advertising, reviews in publications then name. I mean what's an OS/x or DC/OSx or SunOS or Solaris say to a person looking for an OS to run. Xenix, Xelos, Concentrix, OS/x, DC/OSx, Ultrix, Linux -- (btw why do so many Unix (tm) Systems have an X in the name -- is it because marketing has a tough time figuring out a new name. Perhaps we should be xBSD or BSD/xi 8-). We really need to be evangelical. How about a Unix shoot out test. Get all the PC Unix's and get someone like Byte or Unix Review benchmark them on equivalent hardware for speed, stability, ease of installation, reliability. I'm betting on FreeBSD being near or at the top. I'm also trying to work on a couple of things we need to match Linux in the features department. (Yeah, the Run-level stuff as a package. The SysV generation (myself included) would like the flexibility it supplies. If it's optional and not installed automatically it's not bloat. It's choice. (Linux may be the choice of the GNU Generation -- but FreeBSD gives you the choice of just about everything on the net). I've got to write InfoWorld again on IP Masquerading under OS's other than Linux. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 11:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20420 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20383 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:13:56 GMT (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01595 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:13:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. In-Reply-To: <12686.892272670@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was invited recently to speak about unix on a RealAudio/Video show about technology. So of course I spoke about FreeBSD. Anyone with the appropriate technology can view it at http://www.pseudo.com, pick "Parse" from the pull-down menu at the top. This was the latest show, last week. Yes, I did give them a hard time about running their webservers on NT. ;-) Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 11:25:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21931 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:25:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21917 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:24:49 GMT (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00543; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804131819.LAA00543@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wolfgang Helbig cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au (John Birrell), jfieber@indiana.edu, chadf@bookcase.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:54:19 +0200." <199804131754.TAA01655@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:19:20 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Sorry, at school I was taught English, not American. > > So was I: That's debateable. > - In the dictionary there is a section about American versus British > spelling. They don't even mentrion ``-ize'' or ``-ise''. > So to me it appears that ``-ise'' is an Australian speciality, neither > common in Great Britain nor in the US. Wrong again. If you want to be ridiculously pedantic, the use of 's' over 'z' became common in Britain moderately recently, and the trend didn't spread to the Americas. You can argue that 'z' is historically correct, but archaic. However, the real guide here should be style(9), which explicitly requires style to follow the conventions established in a file being modified. If the manpage in question was written by an Australian using commonly accepted Australian spellings, then you can expect 's' to be used over 'z', and this should not be altered. > Wolfgang, an amazed German. I can't see why you're amazed; you were taught English in a country raped and then financed by Americans. I'm surprised they let you speak German at all. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 12:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29365 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29311 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:18 GMT (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw [OUT])) id MAA17251; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 1.0)) id MAA00147; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:10:40 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA20161; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:10:38 -0600 Message-ID: <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:11:15 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" CC: "Eric S. Raymond" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > Pluto Technologies did over 4 million in sales last year and that number > is growing rapidly this year (we sold .5 million in product at NAB last > week). I'd be happy to send Mr. Raymond information about our product > if you can give the me appropriate contact info. Thanks, Justin. I tried to remember your name, your company name, and your product name, but couldn't come up with any of them. I'm glad you responded. I've CC'd this message to Eric S. Raymond so he can add your company to the OpenSource vendors page as well. I've also CC'd the FreeBSD chat list so other FreeBSD organizations will be inspired by it. Honestly, folks, I don't know if this will help FreeBSD, but I don't see how it can hurt. As W. C. Fields (or was it Mae West?) used to say, "There's no such thing as bad press, as long as they spell your name right." -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 13:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09678 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:25:35 GMT (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from giffuni.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA7389; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:28:29 +0500 Message-ID: <35327496.446B9B3D@asme.org> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:24:54 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804131735.NAA14509@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had some email with Tim Parker, the "technical editor" of SCO World, and he said that "...FreeBSD is a good product, but quite frankly Caldera's version of Linux is much better...". I told him he should substantiate such an afirmation with benchmarks, and that I was particularly sure that Linux would not get up after a power failure if it was doing a hard disk operation. Of course I never got reply...SCO World is not a technical magazine..it's not even a UNIX magazine anymore :(. Perhaps FreeBSD should try to join other OS's to contract a benchmarking firm? Pedro. Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > We really need to be evangelical. How about a Unix shoot out test. > Get all the PC Unix's and get someone like Byte or Unix Review benchmark > them on equivalent hardware for speed, stability, ease of installation, > reliability. > > I'm betting on FreeBSD being near or at the top. > > I'm also trying to work on a couple of things we need to match Linux in the > features department. (Yeah, the Run-level stuff as a package. The SysV > generation (myself included) would like the flexibility it supplies. > > If it's optional and not installed automatically it's not bloat. It's choice. > (Linux may be the choice of the GNU Generation -- but FreeBSD gives you the > choice of just about everything on the net). > > I've got to write InfoWorld again on IP Masquerading under OS's other than > Linux. > > Bill > > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | > | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | > | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 13:56:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16979 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16960 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:56:37 GMT (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from giffuni.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA7376 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:54:13 +0500 Message-ID: <35326B64.167EB0E7@asme.org> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:50:41 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804131640.KAA14472@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know what to think about this discussion: 1) New users have asked me if FreeBSD has a cost and they are rather surprised that it is REALLY Free. 2) When I mentioned NetBSD they said "Ohh interesting ...it must be better for networking" ! I don't think the name is really an issue here and neither is the overall popularity of the OS, if we are really looking for those things ...just merge the BSDs and steal NetBSD's name ;-). (Just kidding ..) Let's discuss the other issues OK? Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22419 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22402 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:26:16 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (androzani-1-1.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.92.1]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id QAA08856 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01740 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804132126.QAA01740@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Project FreeBSD 98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, This is the replacement of the former thread Promoting FreeBSD - -the users piece of the action. That title was long and I didn't think properly reflected our goals. Of course the new one may not be much better, but at least it's shorter. Someone please think of a better one. This is a democracy folks, so please feel free to make suggestions, changes or anything that you feel will get this effort up to speed as soon as possible. Viewing the posts regarding this project, there appears to be a fairly general feel amoung us for our goals and objectives. A mission statement and plan to reach our objectives should be the next priority on our agenda. Once that is documented and aggreed upon, we can begin matching resources to tasks and kick off the project. So, there is much to be completed and the great minds out there in userland are inventited to think hard about these things so we can come together as a team and begin our march to victory. I have given some thought to an organizational structure paterned somewhat on that used by the development team. The idea is that an organizational structure will provide focus for the various activities, eliminate duplication of effort, maximize resource utilization, and produce the desired impact on the future of FreeBSD given the resources available to us. This is subject to change as better ideas surface, but for now looks as follows: I have broken the project down into five areas of activity. The scope of each area is left as a work in progress. Each area should be headed up by a coordinator that does not really assign tasks within the area, but coordinates the efforts of the people working within the area. For example two different people simultaniously write a press release to the some publication. We want each individual within each group to be free to utilize their talents in ways they feel most comfortable, but we must eleminate duplication of efforts or doing things half cocked where we look like fools. Quality control and professionalism is of prime importance. The coordinators would form a commitee to decide on direction, objectives, settle differences of opinion, and whatever else may arise as we go along. Probably no one individual has power over the group as a whole. The five groups shake out like so: Documentation: Public Relations: Product positioning Advertising Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) Publications: Magazine Articles, Books, etc. Technical Support: A sales function should be included as a functional area, but there are still outstanding issues reqarding WC CDROM that are still unaccounted for. This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, remember that this is a democracy. Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:37:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24459 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24453 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:37:38 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21079; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:37:22 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA14427; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:37:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980413233719.44732@follo.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:37:19 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: dwilde1@ibm.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 'baby food' promotion References: <353033D6.E1A6EB4D@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <353033D6.E1A6EB4D@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 08:24:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 08:24:06PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Here's a new thread for you all, on the promotional front. How about a > 'newbie's disk' that we package up as a giveaway? Set it up so it comes > up right from the box on a generic VGA PC with XFree, Apache, PPP, Lyx > or StarOffice, Mozilla and (of course) all the port tools and sources, > perhaps on a second CD. All of the existing stuff would be included, but > we'd make some intelligent choices for the beginner, so he could have a > worry-free install to play with _before_ he/she learned to be > sophisticated. [...] > > Whatcha think? It'd be a Good Thing, especially if it could be smoothly integrated in the existing install system. E.g, you boot from CD #3, and suddenly everything is fine, or (perhaps better) you just select and option from sysinstall. Do you have time to implement it (or at least do a large start)? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:43:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25298 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:42:58 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08824; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804132142.OAA08824@implode.root.com> To: Adrian Filipi-Martin cc: FreeBSD commercial support , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD copyrights In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:51:49 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:42:01 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > BSDi didn't exist until well after "BSD UNIX" was in common usage >in the technical community and is commonly used today to refer to a >generic class of services and OS's. I believe BSD was a trademark of the UCB Regents. >Did BSDi buy "BSD" from UCB? That's my understanding, yes. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:47:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kris.wpi.edu (kris.WPI.EDU [130.215.64.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25814 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:47:06 GMT (envelope-from rick@kris.wpi.edu) Received: (from rick@localhost) by kris.wpi.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06191 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:57:10 GMT From: "Rick C. Petty" Message-Id: <199804132157.VAA06191@kris.wpi.edu> Subject: Linus Torvlads... Man of the century? (fwd) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:57:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Files: Trust no one! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I got this message from a linux user's group here in town. Anybody else heard of this or have any suggestions to maybe get the core members listed here? (good advertisement if nothing else)... ----- Forwarded message from David Lee Ludwig ----- Apparantly there is a movement growing to get Linus Torvalds to be listed as one of Time Magazine's "Most Important People of the 20th Century". If you're interested in voting on this, check out the following address. http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html Make sure you place his name (if you do so) under the "Builders and Titans" field. If you're interested, this whole thing started on the dalnet #linux group and was later posted as a news item on freshmeat.net (which, BTW, is a great site.) -- David Ludwig | "Just because you're paranoid doesn't davidlwpi.edu | mean that they're not out to get you." http://www.wpi.edu/~davidl | - Catch 22 ----- End of forwarded message from David Lee Ludwig ----- --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:49:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26128 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:49:13 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08904; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804132148.OAA08904@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD commercial support Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:34:54 MDT." <199804131635.KAA14388@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:48:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 02:28 AM 4/13/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >> All of these would violate BSDI's trademark. > >David: > >If this were so, then FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD would as well. (A >trademark that incorporates another is considered an infringement if >it could create confusion in the marketplace.) The FreeBSD and other projects legally acquired their trademarks from BSD, Inc. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 14:56:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27211 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27137 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:56:31 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jaresh-47.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.86.175]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id QAA13162; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:56:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01973; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:56:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804132156.QAA01973@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:56:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 To: rick@kris.wpi.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804132152.VAA06167@kris.wpi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As of now the table is wide open, no set rules. In fact you can work in more than one area is you'd like. So it's pick you poison ;-) And thanks for stepping up to the plate with some excellent skills. Frank On 13 Apr, Rick C. Petty wrote: >> Documentation: >> >> Public Relations: >> >> Product positioning >> Advertising >> >> Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) >> >> Publications: >> >> Magazine Articles, Books, etc. >> >> Technical Support: > >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, >> remember that this is a democracy. > > I would like to volunteer for help with work in any of these areas. I'm > partial to help with tech support and distribution. I'd also like to do > some real benchmarking with comparisons to other unices. Let me know where > you want help. Thanks, > > --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 15:36:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08633 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08566 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:36:09 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA08716; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:36:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma008712; Mon, 13 Apr 98 15:36:22 -0700 Message-ID: <35329302.1AA2F2C4@partsnow.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:34:42 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Freeware Summit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan - I see notice of a Freeware Summit in Internet World this week 4/13/98, p6. Did anybody ask you your opinion? Any feedback? -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 15:41:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10067 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10056 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:41:28 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24960 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:11:24 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA13534; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:11:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414081124.D8828@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:11:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Success! (was: Installing and Running FreeBSD) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Andy Oram ----- > X-Sender: andyo@ruby.ora.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:11:50 -0400 > To: Greg Lehey > I think you campaign of many years has paid off. Thanks to testimonials > about FreeBSD from you and people working for us (as well as plenty of > people on the Net) Tim and Frank now want to print an updated version of > your book. > > I hope you're not like the legendary genie who got so angry being trapped > in a bottle for generations that he turned against those who finally free > him. Want to work together? > > There are several issues to discuss, such as Walnut Creek and the advance > we sent you for the debugging book. I am ready to write about all this. > > Andy ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 15:50:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.cal.shaw.wave.ca (norquay.cal.shaw.wave.ca [139.142.2.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12195 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:49:51 GMT (envelope-from jbi130@mail.usask.ca) Received: from ladz.ddns.org ([24.64.99.33]) by norquay.cal.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA17400 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:48:11 -0600 Received: from foo2 ([192.168.1.2]) by ladz.ddns.org with smtp id m0yOs1K-000294C (Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:48:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <001901bd672e$8592f840$0201a8c0@foo2> From: "Jason Ish" To: Subject: Re: New name? Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:50:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3007.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3007.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >1) New users have asked me if FreeBSD has a cost and they are rather >surprised that it is REALLY Free. My first interpretation a year or so ago was, FreeBSD, Free the power of your PC. Then I realized it was because it was costless. just my ho. jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 15:54:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13107 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13035 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:53:54 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23488; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:53:41 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA14973; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:53:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980414005340.18368@follo.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:53:40 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Jason Ish , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <001901bd672e$8592f840$0201a8c0@foo2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <001901bd672e$8592f840$0201a8c0@foo2>; from Jason Ish on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:50:12PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:50:12PM -0600, Jason Ish wrote: > >1) New users have asked me if FreeBSD has a cost and they are rather > >surprised that it is REALLY Free. > > > My first interpretation a year or so ago was, FreeBSD, Free the power of > your PC. Then I realized it was because it was costless. That's actually not quite correct. "Freedom, not price." (though the double meaning is probably intended). We'll remain free in all senses of the word, so it might not be significant to you :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:07:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18225 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18207 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:07:16 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22025; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:07:06 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:07:02 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Frank Pawlak Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804132126.QAA01740@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804132126.QAA01740@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > The five groups shake out like so: > > Documentation: > > Public Relations: > > Product positioning > Advertising > > Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) > > Publications: > > Magazine Articles, Books, etc. > > Technical Support: Newbies: Welcoming Orientation Learning support It's one thing to get people using FreeBSD, but don't forget we have to be very well prepared to deal with them when they arrive, or they'll go away again. This is quite separate from technical support which we all need from time to time. New users can go through a stage of feeling isolated, embarrassed, unvalued, or just unsure of how to obtain information in a new environment without many information gathering skills. Some of them have good unix skills but are unfamiliar with FreeBSD and our organisation, while some are new at everything. I'm working on some of these things but as a newbie I'm solving my own problems at the same time. Any help on addressing the non-support needs of newbies is welcome. One area where many of the issues do overlap, however, is support for installation questions. It's technical support, but it is often a new user's first interaction with the mob and impressions formed at that stage can influence their impression of FreeBSD a great deal. And if we're talking about promoting FreeBSD in general, then the final stage of our job is here, not at the CD sale. I get the impression that installation questions are not much fun to answer. They also have to be answered well because misinformation is dangerous at this stage (at least in terms of losing a convert). How well are we dealing with pre-installation and installation technical questions? Do we need more people to help there, or are we doing fine? Has anyone thought this through? > This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on > perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, > remember that this is a democracy. To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:20:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21156 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (gdi.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21142 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:19:50 GMT (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05865 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:19:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White Reply-To: Doug White To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sound on DK440LX? In-Reply-To: <19980412114520.A24192@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pruned cc: back to chat. On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Greg should have forwarded you to the multimedia mailing list :( > > Good question. I've currently been evangalizing a little on > -questions to get people running -CURRENT to post their views on > -CURRENT. What do you people think? Is that still the right thing to > do when the question relates to multimedia (as in this case) or Emacs > mail (as in another recent case)? Put in a `NO' vote here. There are times when system-specific stuff needs to be forwarded up, but questions like ``how do I set up PPP? I'm running -CURRENT'' belong in -questions. Now, if it was a known, well-announced bug then the people deserve the tongue lashing. Don't forget that -quesitons is our first line of support, and we'd prefer that people use the front door unless the question obviously applies elsewhere. I don't mind sorting mail. In Pine, I have a [b]ounce command that I can use to throw mail to the correct list. Other mailers mayhave it as `redirect', but it's a handy command nonetheless. Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:30:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23708 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23654 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:29:56 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25012; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:59:48 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA14380; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:59:47 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414085947.B13654@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:59:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Rick C. Petty" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus Torvlads... Man of the century? (fwd) References: <199804132157.VAA06191@kris.wpi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804132157.VAA06191@kris.wpi.edu>; from Rick C. Petty on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 05:57:10PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 17:57:10 -0400, Rick C. Petty wrote: > I got this message from a linux user's group here in town. Anybody else > heard of this or have any suggestions to maybe get the core members listed > here? (good advertisement if nothing else)... Forget it. We're talking about anybody in this century, not a private rivalry between FreeBSD and Linux. Linus probably doesn't stand a chance, but the FreeBSD people definitely don't. If you want to draw attention to free UNIX, vote for Linus, like I did. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:37:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24397 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:37:34 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 2PDPYG65; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:38:25 -0700 Message-ID: <0a1d01bd6734$63d6e530$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: "chat@freebsd,org" Subject: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:32:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got a course catalog from "Learning Tree International" (http://www.learningtree.com) and they now teach an "Introduction to Linux" class. Ugh... David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:45:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25728 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom19.netcom.com (das@netcom19.netcom.com [192.100.81.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25660 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:44:19 GMT (envelope-from das@netcom.com) Received: (from das@localhost) by netcom19.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id QAA15517; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Das Devaraj Reply-To: Das Devaraj Subject: Re: New name? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804131640.KAA14472@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > Er, WHAT recognition? When I mention FreeBSD, very few professionals even > know what I'm talking about. And the "Free," the internal rhyme, and the > similarity to the colloquialism "freebie" give the initial impresssion > that it's a toy, a game, something cheap, or something that's less than > serious. Brent Glass seems right on target about this. A couple of anecdotal stories, supporting the above - - While I was trying to get a job, spoke with a manager who was heading an effort to put Linux on hardware (OS in a chip kind of deal). Just out of curiousity, asked him whether they were doing the same thing with FreeBSD. He did not even know what it was :-( - Called a local ISP for a new account. Asked them what OS they used, and they did not want to answer. They were very reluctant to answer that they used FreeBSD. - Gave my copy of FreeBSD CDROMs to a buddy who wanted to learn Unix (he is mystified by why I choose ISPs who run only Unix). After a couple of weeks, asked him what was happening. He sheepishly and indirectly pointed that it was free, why would anyone want to give anything good for free etc. There are other anecdotal stories, that I won't bore you with. Granted this is not an exhaustive market research, but it seems to indicate the word "free" is not always viewed in a positive light. Lots of books give excellent advice as to how to choose names 1) Choose a name which does not have a meaning and then give it a meaning by the actions of your company (e.g. Xerox) 2) Choose a name which is loaded with good "vibes" and use it (e.g. MS Works -- sounds like a wonderful endorsement.) 3) Avoid controversial or easily misunderstood words. The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) das To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:46:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26006 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ophelia.uoregon.edu (sharding@ophelia.uoregon.edu [128.223.194.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26000 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:46:33 GMT (envelope-from sharding@ophelia.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by ophelia.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18788 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:46:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... In-Reply-To: <0a1d01bd6734$63d6e530$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Shanes wrote: > I just got a course catalog from "Learning Tree International" > (http://www.learningtree.com) and they now teach an "Introduction to Linux" > class. I'm convinced that Linux is the Windows95 of the Unix-like OS world. For the masses, but not all that great. I'll admit that I have a Linux machine, but it's the only Unixish OS that will run on that specific machine (a Powermac)... Most of the "Linux users" (maybe lusers) I know are surprisingly clueless. I was once of the belief that if someone is smart enough to shun Microsoft (all hail the King) and install Linux, they must be relatively clued--even if they don't agree with my OS choice. But I know a huge number of people who run Linux, and don't even *try* to learn about it. They alias 'ls' to 'dir,' run as root all the time and use the GUI admin tools for everything. I have no problem with customizing one's environment or using tools that help you get the job done faster, but I believe that it's important to understand how and why to do something the "real" way before falling back on things that try to make it just like Windows. A good GUI is great. A comfortable environment is wonderful. But, for goodness sake, try to actually *learn* the OS instead of making it look and act just like the one you left!!! Anyway, rant over before I get carried away Let's just say that FreeBSD is for the discerning user who likes to learn and think ;-) Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"Life is a sleazy stranger http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | & this is his favorite bar." NeXTMail OK! | --Ani DiFranco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:54:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:54:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27054 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:54:30 GMT (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06239; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeware Summit In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:34:42 PDT." <35329302.1AA2F2C4@partsnow.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:14 -0700 Message-ID: <6235.892509974@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nope, I wasn't included. The organizers concluded that this was a mistake in retrospect, but not enough in time for me to know anything about what went on. :) Jordan > Jordan - > I see notice of a Freeware Summit in Internet World this week 4/13/98, p6. Di d > anybody ask you your opinion? Any feedback? > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 16:55:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27275 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27267 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:55:08 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25042; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:25:04 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA14588; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:25:04 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414092503.A14520@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:25:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: James Raynard , FreeBSD commercial support Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?) References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk>; from James Raynard on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 03:22:29PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This discussion has been spread across -chat and Nan Yang's list. I think it's time to take it off -chat, though I'll respect other people's opinions if they want to continue there. Otherwise, if you want to follow this discussion, feel free to sign up to supporters (via majordomo: 'subscribe supporters@nanyang-computer.com'). On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 15:22:29 +0100, James Raynard wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 07:21:15PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> I think people are somewhat overemphasizing this issue, which is >> not really important to the support issues (why isn't anybody >> discussing them?). > > Exactly. I'm amazed no-one seems to have even asked, let alone addressed > the following obvious questions (at least, they seem obvious to me): Good questions. Finally we're coming back on track. > 1. Who are Nan Yang? Nan Yang Computer Services Limited is a company in the UK which negotiates much of the contract work I do. They appear to be a subsidiary of a Singaporean or Malaysian company. They do mainly administrative work, and have the advantage (from my point of view) of giving me relative freedom in what I choose to do, and in not taking too much of a cut out of the contract revenue. > 2. What exactly are they looking for? Not much, really. I've been pestering them to do this for a while, and they finally said "OK, but you organize things". Theoretically, we could drop Nan Yang and start a separate company, but I can't think of any reason to do so at the moment. > 3. How serious are they? Well, *I* am very serious. > 4. What kind of customers do they have? None at the moment. > 5. How much time would they expect people to spend on working for > them? This is one of the things I want to discuss. Eventually this would require a large number of full-time employees, but they don't have to be anybody currently on the list. I could see an advantage in having high-quality part-time people involved, but we'd have to get some commitment to minimum availability. > 6. What (if any) is the difference between working for Nan Yang and being > a contractor/consultant for a "normal" agency? This is another of the things I want to discuss. Currently, probably not too much. > 7. What's the best way of getting in touch with them? Via this list. You can send mail to Nan Yang Computer Services Limited Kissack Court 29 Parliament Street Ramsey, IM99 4AN Great Britain They don't tend to be very communicative; they'll probably forward it to me. As I say, Nan Yang doesn't have to be part of this, but I think they could be useful. We can discuss this point too. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:06:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28805 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28781 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:06:01 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (neptune-43.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.78.235]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA29519; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:05:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02276; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:05:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140005.TAA02276@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:05:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 To: sue@welearn.com.au cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Sue, On 14 Apr, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >> The five groups shake out like so: ----------------snip------------ >> >> Technical Support: > > Newbies: > > Welcoming > Orientation > Learning support > These are excellent points and the activities are very much needed. If I can add something to this it is total agreement. I am still something of a newbie myself, and have at times been reticent to ask questions for just the reasons that you point out. You are correct, at least in my mind, that this is a key and difficult area of technical support, yet very necessary. I read a few of the Linux NG's and have noticed that there are any number of people more than willing to do hand holding, and we have to learn to do that too. And, I've gotten into my share of flame wars over the issue that FreeBSD support is either bad or non-existent. We need to fix that real soon. How would you feel about working on some ideas on how to fix that? Greg may have some feel for this as he is working on some of these issues. When I laid out the structure the categories were left mostly open to attract ideas that will eventually fill them in. You have done just that. If I can ask one thing of you, can you keep a copy of this post. I am learning that the "paper flow" regarding this whole project is starting to clog the arteries a bit here. I have to take some time and work on a personal organization project to handle it without loosing anyone. More below > > It's one thing to get people using FreeBSD, but don't forget we have to be > very well prepared to deal with them when they arrive, or they'll go away > again. This is quite separate from technical support which we all need from > time to time. New users can go through a stage of feeling isolated, > embarrassed, unvalued, or just unsure of how to obtain information in a new > environment without many information gathering skills. Some of them have > good unix skills but are unfamiliar with FreeBSD and our organisation, while > some are new at everything. I'm working on some of these things but as a > newbie I'm solving my own problems at the same time. Any help on addressing > the non-support needs of newbies is welcome. > > > > One area where many of the issues do overlap, however, is support for > installation questions. It's technical support, but it is often a new user's > first interaction with the mob and impressions formed at that stage can > influence their impression of FreeBSD a great deal. And if we're talking > about promoting FreeBSD in general, then the final stage of our job is here, > not at the CD sale. > > I get the impression that installation questions are not much fun to answer. > They also have to be answered well because misinformation is dangerous at > this stage (at least in terms of losing a convert). Losing converts will derail everything that we do. > > How well are we dealing with pre-installation and installation technical > questions? Do we need more people to help there, or are we doing fine? > Has anyone thought this through? > > >> This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, >> remember that this is a democracy. > > To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the > small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) Only in the US ;-) I would hope that the Australian experience with democracy differs from ours. If I were to be president or prime minister, that kind of thing would end in a heartbeat. If I have my say it won't happen here either. Best wishes, Frank > > -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:11:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29360 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (esr@[192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29347 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:10:49 GMT (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15189; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:15:42 -0400 Message-ID: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:15:41 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Wes Peters Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 01:11:15PM -0600 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters : > Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > Pluto Technologies did over 4 million in sales last year and that number > > is growing rapidly this year (we sold .5 million in product at NAB last > > week). I'd be happy to send Mr. Raymond information about our product > > if you can give the me appropriate contact info. > > Thanks, Justin. I tried to remember your name, your company name, and > your product name, but couldn't come up with any of them. I'm glad you > responded. > > I've CC'd this message to Eric S. Raymond so he can add > your company to the OpenSource vendors page as well. I've also CC'd the > FreeBSD chat list so other FreeBSD organizations will be inspired by it. > > Honestly, folks, I don't know if this will help FreeBSD, but I don't see > how it can hurt. As W. C. Fields (or was it Mae West?) used to say, > "There's no such thing as bad press, as long as they spell your name right." A 4 mil run rate is enough to at least keep VCs from laughing at us. So I'll happily carry whatever product this is, despite my personal belief that all of the the BSD variants are basically doomed to be eaten by the giant expanding blob that is Linux. (Can anyone convince me I'm wrong? Don't bother getting indignant at me because I'm not at all happy about believing it. And don't bother trying to convince me that BSD is in many ways technically superior to Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to outgrow Linux 0.99 back in 1994. But if anyone can spin a plausible scenario under which the BSDs survive the next three years, I'd really love to hear it.) -- Eric S. Raymond "One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms." -- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:16:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29862 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29851 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:16:47 GMT (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA00782 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 3skel.com (localhost.3skel.com [127.0.0.1]) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA10914 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3532AADE.CD8589C4@3skel.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:16:30 -0400 From: Dan Janowski Organization: Triskelion Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Das Devaraj wrote: > The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, > but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a > catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make > a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) This seems more reasonable. I don't know if this applies, but it was CSRG's Unix, but the name Berkeley Systems Distribution had some good stuff in it. I usually don't refer to it as FreeBSD in mixed company. I call it 'Berkeley Unix' which in a conversation is pretty harmless but has obvious problems in print. Redistribute it as?: BSD-x86 A Berkeley Operating System Development by FreeBSD Does this cause legal problems? DG? What are the restrictions on 'Unix'? Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:21:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00413 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124b.rh.psu.edu (MPH124B.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00393 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:20:56 GMT (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) From: gsutter@pobox.com Received: from localhost (gsutter@localhost) by mph124b.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20322 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:20:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:20:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: gsutter@mph124b.rh.psu.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... In-Reply-To: <0a1d01bd6734$63d6e530$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Shanes wrote: >I just got a course catalog from "Learning Tree International" >(http://www.learningtree.com) and they now teach an "Introduction to Linux" >class. > >Ugh... No ughs here! Linux isn't FreeBSD, but it's a free U**X. More than that, it's free software. Let Linux lead the way, because it can. Linux is "paving the road" to acceptance of free software. FreeBSD will follow and show people just what quality free software is about. (Not that Linux isn't quality, especially compared to Windoze...) Regards, GReg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:26:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01967 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01924 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:26:29 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (neptune-43.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.78.235]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA02024 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:26:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02363 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:26:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140026.TAA02363@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:25:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Open Source Products To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Wes Peters : >> Justin T. Gibbs wrote: >> > Pluto Technologies did over 4 million in sales last year and that number >> > is growing rapidly this year (we sold .5 million in product at NAB last >> > week). I'd be happy to send Mr. Raymond information about our product >> > if you can give the me appropriate contact info. >> >> Thanks, Justin. I tried to remember your name, your company name, and >> your product name, but couldn't come up with any of them. I'm glad you >> responded. >> >> I've CC'd this message to Eric S. Raymond so he can add >> your company to the OpenSource vendors page as well. I've also CC'd the >> FreeBSD chat list so other FreeBSD organizations will be inspired by it. >> >> Honestly, folks, I don't know if this will help FreeBSD, but I don't see >> how it can hurt. As W. C. Fields (or was it Mae West?) used to say, >> "There's no such thing as bad press, as long as they spell your name right." > > A 4 mil run rate is enough to at least keep VCs from laughing at us. > So I'll happily carry whatever product this is, despite my personal > belief that all of the the BSD variants are basically doomed to be eaten > by the giant expanding blob that is Linux. Ouch!! That feels like a kick in a tender spot. Pardon my stupidity, but what are VCs??? Frank > > (Can anyone convince me I'm wrong? Don't bother getting indignant at > me because I'm not at all happy about believing it. And don't bother > trying to convince me that BSD is in many ways technically superior to > Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I > saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to > outgrow Linux 0.99 back in 1994. But if anyone can spin a plausible > scenario under which the BSDs survive the next three years, I'd really > love to hear it.) -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:27:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02304 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:27:36 GMT (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw [OUT])) id RAA19308; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 1.0)) id RAA05566; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:25:55 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA03602; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:25:54 -0600 Message-ID: <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:26:31 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: esr@thyrsus.com CC: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric S. Raymond wrote: > A 4 mil run rate is enough to at least keep VCs from laughing at us. > So I'll happily carry whatever product this is, despite my personal > belief that all of the the BSD variants are basically doomed to be eaten > by the giant expanding blob that is Linux. > > (Can anyone convince me I'm wrong? Don't bother getting indignant at > me because I'm not at all happy about believing it. And don't bother > trying to convince me that BSD is in many ways technically superior to > Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I > saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to > outgrow Linux 0.99 back in 1994. But if anyone can spin a plausible > scenario under which the BSDs survive the next three years, I'd really > love to hear it.) I've had this discussion recently with my brother, who is now a Linux convert because they support PowerPC architecture, and he has boxes full of these machines lying around at work -- he works in the AIX support group at Moto. I can think of a couple of scenarios that may contribute to the ongoing success of *BSD. One is the number of "embedded" wins it is getting. This is an area that Linux doesn't seem to be flourishing much, probably because (IMHO) embedded programmers are more educated and less likely to have grown up on PCs. Another scenario has to do with the success of FreeBSD in network intensive applications, such as ISPs and web servers. It is now generally acknowleged that Linux does pretty well in this arena, but in the headspace of a number of these companies, FreeBSD in particular is still better. When W. Richard Stevens writes a chapter in a book about a feature you have and Linux doesn't, it's not going to hurt your standing with educated network software engineers. ;^) A third scenario that is less likely but would still help would be convergence of the disparate groups back into one organization. It's really too bad we have to have three web sites, three ftp server organizations, three differing (and more or less successful) CD-ROM programs, etc., for what are very similar products. I know all about the differences in the FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD organizations, and the differences in their research thrusts, but it still doesn't matter. If you slapped a common name on all three, they'd still be much more similar than any two Linux distributions. Which leads me into my last point: At some time, once Linux starts getting really entrenched in a couple of highly visible businesses, somebody's going to hit a snag running a TurboLinux application on a RedHat server or some such silly bunch of rot, and they're going to tell some hare-brained "journalist" about it, and the PC rags are going to have a heyday. "See, we told you this Linux stuff was for the birds, trust Microsoft. Their products are perfect, and their dedicated support staff will take care of you." Let's face it, Walnut Creek's FTP server and Yahoo's server banks, both run on FreeBSD, comprise two of the largest server installations on the Internet. As long as we have an educated market of administrators and programmers who don't like downtime, FreeBSD (and NetBSD and OpenBSD) will have a home. If you don't believe me, just ask Justin. ;^) -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:30:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124b.rh.psu.edu (MPH124B.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03419 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:30:08 GMT (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) From: gsutter@pobox.com Received: from localhost (gsutter@localhost) by mph124b.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20353 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:30:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:30:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: gsutter@mph124b.rh.psu.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <3532AADE.CD8589C4@3skel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: >Das Devaraj wrote: >> The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, >> but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a >> catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make >> a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) > >Redistribute it as?: > >BSD-x86 >A Berkeley Operating System >Development by FreeBSD > >Does this cause legal problems? DG? What are the >restrictions on 'Unix'? I believe UNIX belongs to AT&T. We can't call it that. BSD-x86 is very _very_ close to BSD/386, a copyright of BSDI. I doubt we'd get away with that either. The whole name-change idea is probably unsound. Repackaging under different names, in my mind, draws immediate comparisons to Linux, where they have Slackware, Caldera/Red Hat, Debian, and another handful of smaller distributions, all doing their own thing and succeeding very well at splintering Linux. One of FreeBSD's strengths, and one of the main reasons why I agreed to try it (instead of installing a Linux) was the single, unified distribution, where I could get "FreeBSD", not "Foo-Brand FreeBSD" or "Baz-Brand FreeBSD" or "Snarfnix-8088 by FreeBSD". We've got a good, appropriate, descriptive name for the OS and we're just starting to achieve significant name-recognition; let's keep it that way. Regards, GReg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:35:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04592 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04571 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:34:56 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 2PDPYG8R; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:35:45 -0700 Message-ID: <0a7701bd673c$6611e770$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: , Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:29:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, I disagree. If Linux paves the way, nothing says that FreeBSD will follow. If it does follow, will anyone (besides us) be watching or will they all have their backs turned to us? David -----Original Message----- From: gsutter@pobox.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, April 13, 1998 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Shanes wrote: > >>I just got a course catalog from "Learning Tree International" >>(http://www.learningtree.com) and they now teach an "Introduction to Linux" >>class. >> >>Ugh... > >No ughs here! Linux isn't FreeBSD, but it's a free U**X. More than >that, it's free software. Let Linux lead the way, because it can. >Linux is "paving the road" to acceptance of free software. FreeBSD will >follow and show people just what quality free software is about. (Not >that Linux isn't quality, especially compared to Windoze...) > >Regards, > >GReg >-- >Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" >mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." >http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:46:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05886 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05856 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:45:50 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07373; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:45:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:45:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: gsutter@pobox.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Snarfnix (was Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 gsutter@pobox.com wrote: > The whole name-change idea is probably unsound. Repackaging under > different names, in my mind, draws immediate comparisons to Linux, where > they have Slackware, Caldera/Red Hat, Debian, and another handful of > smaller distributions, all doing their own thing and succeeding very > well at splintering Linux. One of FreeBSD's strengths, and one of the > main reasons why I agreed to try it (instead of installing a Linux) was > the single, unified distribution, where I could get "FreeBSD", not > "Foo-Brand FreeBSD" or "Baz-Brand FreeBSD" or "Snarfnix-8088 by > FreeBSD". Cool, is Snarfnix-8088 on wcarchive? I've got a few 8088's that are just begging 'Put Snarfnix on me!!' ;P *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:47:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06142 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:47:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06134 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:47:34 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11170; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804140044.RAA11170@implode.root.com> To: Wes Peters cc: esr@thyrsus.com, "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:26:31 MDT." <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:44:58 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Let's face it, Walnut Creek's FTP server and Yahoo's server banks, >both run on FreeBSD, comprise two of the largest server installations >on the Internet. As long as we have an educated market of administrators >and programmers who don't like downtime, FreeBSD (and NetBSD and >OpenBSD) will have a home. Unfortunately, hardware failures still happen and cause downtime - such as the one I'm having right now with wcarchive. :-( Looks like the memory has started to flake out and I can't keep the machine up for more than about 30 minutes right now. I'll be flying down to SF tomorrow to troubleshoot and hopefully fix this. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:50:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:50:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124b.rh.psu.edu (MPH124B.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06973 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:50:21 GMT (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) From: gsutter@pobox.com Received: from localhost (gsutter@localhost) by mph124b.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20558 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:50:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:50:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: gsutter@mph124b.rh.psu.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, yes, self-followup. On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 gsutter@pobox.com wrote: >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: >> >>Does this cause legal problems? DG? What are the >>restrictions on 'Unix'? > >I believe UNIX belongs to AT&T. We can't call it that. BSD-x86 is very >_very_ close to BSD/386, a copyright of BSDI. I doubt we'd get away >with that either. Okay, Matt pointed out to me that indeed, UNIX ain't belongin' to AT&T anymore and despite being young, I'm very out of date. He also reminded me about 386BSD, which BSDI was not involved in and apparently had no problems with. But the rest of it is right. :) >The whole name-change idea is probably unsound. Repackaging under >different names, in my mind, draws immediate comparisons to Linux, where >they have Slackware, Caldera/Red Hat, Debian, and another handful of >smaller distributions, all doing their own thing and succeeding very >well at splintering Linux. One of FreeBSD's strengths, and one of the >main reasons why I agreed to try it (instead of installing a Linux) was >the single, unified distribution, where I could get "FreeBSD", not >"Foo-Brand FreeBSD" or "Baz-Brand FreeBSD" or "Snarfnix-8088 by >FreeBSD". > >We've got a good, appropriate, descriptive name for the OS and we're >just starting to achieve significant name-recognition; let's keep >it that way. GReg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:55:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07560 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07523 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:54:24 GMT (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06265; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:53:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980413205335.19287@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:53:36 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: gsutter@pobox.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <3532AADE.CD8589C4@3skel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from gsutter@pobox.com on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 08:30:03PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 08:30:03PM -0400, gsutter@pobox.com wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > >Das Devaraj wrote: > >> The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, > >> but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a > >> catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make > >> a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) > > > >Redistribute it as?: > > > >BSD-x86 > >A Berkeley Operating System > >Development by FreeBSD > > > >Does this cause legal problems? DG? What are the > >restrictions on 'Unix'? > > I believe UNIX belongs to AT&T. We can't call it that. BSD-x86 is very > _very_ close to BSD/386, a copyright of BSDI. I doubt we'd get away > with that either. UNIX(tm) hasn't belonged to AT&T proper since 1990 or 1991. WHen USL was formed, the rights to the name went to them; the trademark went to X/Open around 1993 or 1994. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:55:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07693 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124b.rh.psu.edu (MPH124B.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07607 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:55:18 GMT (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) From: gsutter@pobox.com Received: from localhost (gsutter@localhost) by mph124b.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20622; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:55:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gsutter@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:55:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: gsutter@mph124b.rh.psu.edu To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Snarfnix (was Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 gsutter@pobox.com wrote: >> the single, unified distribution, where I could get "FreeBSD", not >> "Foo-Brand FreeBSD" or "Baz-Brand FreeBSD" or "Snarfnix-8088 by >> FreeBSD". >Cool, is Snarfnix-8088 on wcarchive? I've got a few 8088's that are just >begging 'Put Snarfnix on me!!' Yes, but it's not clearly named on wcarchive. I forget the name, and wcarchive is down right now (poke DG :) so you'll just have to search for it on your own. It shouldn't be too hard to find; wcarchive isn't that big. Regards, GReg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 17:57:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08047 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:57:16 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07702; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:56:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:56:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Sue Blake cc: Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 In-Reply-To: <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > The five groups shake out like so: > > > > Documentation: > > > > Public Relations: > > > > Product positioning > > Advertising > > > > Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) > > > > Publications: > > > > Magazine Articles, Books, etc. > > > > Technical Support: > > Newbies: > > Welcoming > Orientation > Learning support > OK, here's my $0.02 on this. 1) Make a category 'Information' or whatever and stick both Tech Support and Documentation under it. Granted, these are very seperate efforts, but they're perhaps two of the closest tied efforts. The fact that we don't have a FAQ about 'How do I get the floppy into the drive?' indicated that there's been a startling lack of questions about how to do so on the tech support side. The job of the Documentation team should always be to put the Tech Support team out of business, by providing, easily available, both quick tutorials to get the users doing what they need/want to do, and in-depth articles with all the gory details. Similarly, the Tech Support team should direct attention when appropriate upon the Documentation teams efforts. I think these team have a lot to gain and little to lose by being at least partly integrated. True, this is probably a rather extreme view on the way these should be tied together. But extreme ideas are the best, since they cause the most violent agreements of disagreements. When the dust settles on this, we'll know we've got a good arrangement. 2) Perhaps ditto on PR and Publications. CAEVET: I'm not saying that I necessarily believe we SHOULD do either of these, just that they're options available. That said, count on me dipping my fingers into at least documentation, PR, and tech support. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 18:15:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11798 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11777 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:14:58 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08849; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:19:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980413211943.22246@vmunix.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:19:43 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Frank Pawlak , rick@kris.wpi.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Contact Datbases - Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <199804132152.VAA06167@kris.wpi.edu> <199804132156.QAA01973@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804132156.QAA01973@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:56:16PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:56:16PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > As of now the table is wide open, no set rules. In fact you can work > in more than one area is you'd like. So it's pick you poison ;-) > > And thanks for stepping up to the plate with some excellent skills. Okey. What would people think of creating a few contact databases? I'd like to see one of "FreeBSD Advocates", and also one of "Press Contacts". Obviously, the advocates database would list people that have expressed an interest in promoting FreeBSD - you would sign up on a web page. That way, we don't "loose" the team. The Press Contacts database would list various contacts at various news agencies (CNet, Techweb, Infoworld, etc..) and indicate things like "Are FreeBSD friendly", and so on.. I'm offering to host the databases, and create the web front end. In fact, I already started. I may get the prototype up by tonight (got exams to study for, but this is *wonderful* procrastination). Any other contact-like databases that we need? Organization is key right now, IMHO, and I think just "rallying the troops" to a centralized advocacy site would be a good idea. I'd also have things like PR Templates, Articles, etc. for people to generate promo material from. I already did my 1st draft of "Getting FreeBSD into Academia" that will be published in the newsletter hopefully. http://www.vmunix.com/advocacy/academia.html -Mark > > Frank > > > On 13 Apr, Rick C. Petty wrote: > >> Documentation: > >> > >> Public Relations: > >> > >> Product positioning > >> Advertising > >> > >> Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) > >> > >> Publications: > >> > >> Magazine Articles, Books, etc. > >> > >> Technical Support: > > > >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, > >> remember that this is a democracy. > > > > I would like to volunteer for help with work in any of these areas. I'm > > partial to help with tech support and distribution. I'd also like to do > > some real benchmarking with comparisons to other unices. Let me know where > > you want help. Thanks, > > > > --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ > > -- > > > ----------------------------- > > "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his > thumb with a hammer." > > -- Marshall Lumsden > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 18:38:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14056 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:37:16 GMT (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA02285; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:31:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: esr@thyrsus.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-Reply-To: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I > saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to "parsin", I think, although for all I know "uparshin" could be a legitimate alternative. :) > outgrow Linux 0.99 back in 1994. But if anyone can spin a plausible > scenario under which the BSDs survive the next three years, I'd really > love to hear it.) If you want Linux to destroy the BSDs, you have to find a scenario where Linux is technically superiour (in almost all ways) to the BSDs. Unless that happens, there will always be a market segment that prefers us. Doesn't mean we'll have the same size, of course. :-) Now, if you talk 10 years, that's much harder to predict. I will be interested in the future then, but over three years, not much interesting will happen. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 18:52:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16578 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (esr@[192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16503 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:51:45 GMT (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15237; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:56:48 -0400 Message-ID: <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:56:47 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Wes Peters Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 06:26:31PM -0600 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters : > A third scenario that is less likely but would still help would be > convergence of the disparate groups back into one organization. It's > really too bad we have to have three web sites, three ftp server > organizations, three differing (and more or less successful) CD-ROM > programs, etc., for what are very similar products. That's the key thing, IMO. The fact that the BSD crowd is split into squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions, while Linux looks pretty much like one big happy family united under benign Daddy Torvalds, negates every single technical advantage you guys have. > At some time, once Linux starts getting really entrenched in a couple > of highly visible businesses, somebody's going to hit a snag running > a TurboLinux application on a RedHat server or some such silly bunch > of rot, and they're going to tell some hare-brained "journalist" > about it, and the PC rags are going to have a heyday. "See, we told > you this Linux stuff was for the birds, trust Microsoft. Their > products are perfect, and their dedicated support staff will take care > of you." It would be *very* unwise to hope for this. For one thing, if your story about BSD being preferable for highly-stressed, high-throughput network servers is true, it's about as likely you'll get bit as a Linux box will. And, in any case, if you think the pinheads who inhabit the trade press wouldn't rush to interpret a conspicuous Linux failure as a slam on *all* open-source/Unix OSs, you're dreaming. -- Eric S. Raymond "Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater." -- Peter Venetoklis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 18:55:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt050n33.san.rr.com [204.210.31.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17061 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:55:28 GMT (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13685; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <3532C1FA.21E9F144@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:55:06 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: FreeBSD commercial support , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Nan Yang (Was: Re: It's the economy, stupid! (Was: Re: New name?)) References: <19980413132146.H28708@freebie.lemis.com> <199804130928.CAA03504@implode.root.com> <19980413192115.V28708@freebie.lemis.com> <19980413152229.47827@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <19980414092503.A14520@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > This discussion has been spread across -chat and Nan Yang's list. I > think it's time to take it off -chat, though I'll respect other > people's opinions if they want to continue there. With all due respect to those concerned, my preference would be to continue the discussion about freebsd support on -chat. I would really like to see the momentum continue, and prematurely adjourning to one forum will tend to skew the outcome. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 19:02:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18561 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom20.netcom.com (das@netcom20.netcom.com [192.100.81.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18544 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:02:05 GMT (envelope-from das@netcom.com) Received: (from das@localhost) by netcom20.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id TAA26438; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Das Devaraj Subject: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) To: Dan Janowski cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3532AADE.CD8589C4@3skel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > Das Devaraj wrote: > > The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, > > but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a > > catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make > > a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) > > This seems more reasonable. [SNIP] Thanks! > Redistribute it as?: > > BSD-x86 > A Berkeley Operating System > Development by FreeBSD If FreeBSD is repackaged to be sold, keep in mind that the intended market will not be those who are currently buying FreeBSD CDs from Walnut Creek CDROM or those installing over the net. In other words, the current experts will not want to touch it, newbies may be another story. Some of the changes which will have to folded in (off the top of my head) to make corporate / business buyers comfortable are - Specify whom this system is for (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) - What kind of hardware is needed to run it - What advantages will they get from using it (sorry, a technical description of BSD will not cut it) - What kind of support they can expect from it (most businesses would rather pay money for support than hire expensive technical help) - What kind of skill level is needed to operate it (many people who post to various FreeBSD mailing lists seem to know *way more than* what even experts in the business world know) - What will be the channel (will it be distributed by Walnut Creek CDROM -- probably I can ask them, have an office only a few miles from them! Or will it be distributed by VARs?) The point which I am trying to make (which is hopefully abundantly clear by now) is that a name change / repackage is not just a game of coming up with a "cutesy" name, but rather a whole business plan. > Does this cause legal problems? DG? What are the > restrictions on 'Unix'? Don't know about Unix. UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group. See http://www.OpenGroup.org das To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 19:05:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19179 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:04:18 GMT (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-56.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.56]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA10469 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA04014 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:10:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140110.UAA04014@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... In-reply-to: Message from Sean Harding of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:46:31 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:10:03 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Harding writes: > > Most of the "Linux users" (maybe lusers) I know are surprisingly clueless. > I was once of the belief that if someone is smart enough to shun Microsoft > (all hail the King) and install Linux, they must be relatively clued--even > if they don't agree with my OS choice. But I know a huge number of people > who run Linux, and don't even *try* to learn about it. They alias 'ls' to > 'dir,' run as root all the time and use the GUI admin tools for > everything. That reminds me of one of the things that bugged me about Slackware and/ or SLS Linux many years ago - first thing I had to do after an install is remove those #%$^@ pre-installed DOSism aliases. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 19:12:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21872 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt050n33.san.rr.com [204.210.31.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21728 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:12:10 GMT (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13745; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <3532C5F7.B0F474C4@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:07 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <199804140005.TAA02276@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > These are excellent points and the activities are very much needed. Yes, some of us have been talking about this subject for a long time. :) It's nice to see the momentum continue to build. The work on some of the things you're discussing here has already been in progress for a couple months. I would again encourage anyone interested in working on documentation related issues to subscribe to freebsd-doc. > If > I can add something to this it is total agreement. I am still something > of a newbie myself, and have at times been reticent to ask questions > for just the reasons that you point out. Can you please describe in as much detail as you feel comfortable with exactly *why* you don't feel comfortable asking questions? Perhaps on a different thread. This is a key area of the FreeBSD project and since I'm at a loss to understand why someone wouldn't feel comfy asking questions on the -questions list, I need help understanding. :) > > To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the > > small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) > > Only in the US ;-) I would hope that the Australian experience with > democracy differs from ours. If I were to be president or prime > minister, that kind of thing would end in a heartbeat. If I have my > say it won't happen here either. Errrr... I think we'll get a lot farther if we don't assume negatives and cast aspersions from the start. :) Rather than dragging politics and nationalism into the debate, let's focus on how we can serve our community best. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 19:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21879 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21789 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:12:20 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (xeros-1-148.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.91.150]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id VAA19865; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:12:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02565; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:12:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140212.VAA02565@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:12:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Contact Datbases - Re: Project FreeBSD 98 To: mark@vmunix.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980413211943.22246@vmunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is great. Thanks for the great idea. We have accomplished quite a little in just a couple of days. I am already working myself out of a job. Such is the life of a consultant << big G >> Frank On 13 Apr, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:56:16PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >> As of now the table is wide open, no set rules. In fact you can work >> in more than one area is you'd like. So it's pick you poison ;-) >> >> And thanks for stepping up to the plate with some excellent skills. > > > Okey. What would people think of creating a few contact databases? > I'd like to see one of "FreeBSD Advocates", and also one of "Press > Contacts". Obviously, the advocates database would list people that > have expressed an interest in promoting FreeBSD - you would sign up > on a web page. That way, we don't "loose" the team. > > The Press Contacts database would list various contacts at various > news agencies (CNet, Techweb, Infoworld, etc..) and indicate things > like "Are FreeBSD friendly", and so on.. > > I'm offering to host the databases, and create the web front end. In fact, > I already started. I may get the prototype up by tonight (got exams to > study for, but this is *wonderful* procrastination). > > Any other contact-like databases that we need? Organization is key > right now, IMHO, and I think just "rallying the troops" to a centralized > advocacy site would be a good idea. > > I'd also have things like PR Templates, Articles, etc. for people to > generate promo material from. I already did my 1st draft of "Getting > FreeBSD into Academia" that will be published in the newsletter hopefully. > http://www.vmunix.com/advocacy/academia.html > > -Mark > >> >> Frank >> >> >> On 13 Apr, Rick C. Petty wrote: >> >> Documentation: >> >> >> >> Public Relations: >> >> >> >> Product positioning >> >> Advertising >> >> >> >> Distribution ( Customer Fullfillment ) >> >> >> >> Publications: >> >> >> >> Magazine Articles, Books, etc. >> >> >> >> Technical Support: >> > >> >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, >> >> remember that this is a democracy. >> > >> > I would like to volunteer for help with work in any of these areas. I'm >> > partial to help with tech support and distribution. I'd also like to do >> > some real benchmarking with comparisons to other unices. Let me know where >> > you want help. Thanks, >> > >> > --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ >> >> -- >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his >> thumb with a hammer." >> >> -- Marshall Lumsden >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 19:56:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29922 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (mph@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29910 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:56:24 GMT (envelope-from mph@mph124.rh.psu.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09333; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:56:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980413225610.36275@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:56:10 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > That's the key thing, IMO. The fact that the BSD crowd is split into > squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions, while Linux looks I think that by making such references, you are doing BSD a disservice. Maybe that's your intent; I don't know. Perhaps the BSD "factions" used to be that way, but I don't think that's the case anymore. I came to FreeBSD from Linux just over a year ago, and I have tried to contribute my skills to the project. Most of my contributions have gone to the ports collection, but I have also submitted some PR's for the kernel, userspace, and documentation. I submit my PR's only to the FreeBSD GNATS system. Nevertheless, I've gotten comments or "thanks" emails from Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD, and I once looked at their CVS interface on the web, and found my changes imported. Likewise, I frequently see FreeBSD commit messages crediting OpenBSD. (I don't see much about NetBSD.) I don't see much squabbling (except some personality conflicts; some people don't like Jordan, some don't like Theo, etc.). I see three (or four, if you count BSDI) projects with different goals, but which do monitor each other's improvements and give credit where it's due. Maybe things were worse in the olden days. But I just don't see it now, and it disgusts me to hear the litany repeated as if it were a self-evident truth. I don't know why you think BSD is so disjoint, but Linux, without a uniform userland, is unified. -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:10:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01914 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01865 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:10:12 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09304; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980413231307.01919@vmunix.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:13:07 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: esr@thyrsus.com, Wes Peters Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Wes Peters : > > A third scenario that is less likely but would still help would be > > convergence of the disparate groups back into one organization. It's > > really too bad we have to have three web sites, three ftp server > > organizations, three differing (and more or less successful) CD-ROM > > programs, etc., for what are very similar products. > > That's the key thing, IMO. The fact that the BSD crowd is split into > squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions, while Linux looks > pretty much like one big happy family united under benign Daddy > Torvalds, negates every single technical advantage you guys have. The fact is, the BSD crowd is *not* split into "squabbling spinoff-group- of-the-week factions". Just look at the amount of sharing that happens between the 3 - the ports and package systems, VM enhancements, boot code, network drivers, sound system, etc, etc.. There are an astonishing number of developers that commit code to multiple BSDs, and we all gain tremendous insight by taking a look at how the other camps are independantly doing things. It's a very creative, productive environment. Although there are 3 seperate BSDs, with a few big mouths that sometimes take things personally, it is very unfair to categorize the entire movement as you do. The only reason that this reputation exists is that people like yourself continue to believe/promote it. The only reason I can think of why you would continue to be mislead in this fashion, is that you somehow feel better about the splintering of the Linux groups by creating this mythical war between the BSD "factions" - then you can compare yourself to this horrible BSD group and feel all warm and fuzzy inside. While I haven't considered this to be much more than pathetic in the past, it's really starting to become quite annoying. So please, before making rediculous statements like this, do a little research, look at the code, read the mailing lists, or whatever you prefer. Just stop acting like a 14 year old. -Mark P.S. Eric: While I greatly respect your work, and think you're doing a great job of promoting the benefits of free software, your continued lack of understanding WRT how the BSD community operates is becoming quite distressing. Trust me, we're a very proud and active community. Our only downfall is that we tend to be to busy using a BSD to evangelize it. This is changing however, and I can gaurantee you that the up and coming FreeBSD community will be undergoing a "coming out" of sorts in the months ahead that will surprise even you. We will never die. We will fight hard, and we will come out with our heads high. So please, stop putting us down and start helping us out. Free/Open software is good, and this upsetting trend in the Linux community that "Linux is the one - and can be the only alternative" is not doing the free community any good. > -- > Eric S. Raymond > > "Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue > out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater." > -- Peter Venetoklis -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:12:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02307 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:12:02 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (xeros-1-148.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.91.150]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id DAA27871; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:11:57 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02630; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140311.WAA02630@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:11:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 To: Studded@san.rr.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3532C5F7.B0F474C4@san.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr, Studded wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > >> These are excellent points and the activities are very much needed. > > Yes, some of us have been talking about this subject for a long time. > :) It's nice to see the momentum continue to build. The work on some of > the things you're discussing here has already been in progress for a > couple months. I would again encourage anyone interested in working on > documentation related issues to subscribe to freebsd-doc. > >> If >> I can add something to this it is total agreement. I am still something >> of a newbie myself, and have at times been reticent to ask questions >> for just the reasons that you point out. > > Can you please describe in as much detail as you feel comfortable with > exactly *why* you don't feel comfortable asking questions? Perhaps on a > different thread. This is a key area of the FreeBSD project and since > I'm at a loss to understand why someone wouldn't feel comfy asking > questions on the -questions list, I need help understanding. :) Sure I'll give this a shot. This is tough to answer without appearing to be bitching. My feeling is that at times when questions are asked, the question gets answered at a level that may intimidate the person asking. In other words a terse answer. If that answer is not understood, a person maybe hesitant to ask for a more detailed explanation out of embarrassment of appearing stupid. However, I must plead guilty, because I have answered questions in the same manner, so I am now finding it hard to point fingers. A simple minded personal example is Eric Raymond's post to chat in which he mentions VCs. I don't have a clue what he means, so I had the option of just letting it pass or post a question as to what a VC is. I am sure that is a term common to most in the community, so there I was somewhat hesitant to ask about it but I did anyway. A more memorable example occcured on the news group, which I understand doesn't concern what we are trying to accomplish here. At the time there was a short thread regarding a few people that were running the Linux real audio player 5.0 My box is setup for Linux emulation and I run Linux apps all day long, except for the realplayer. I posted to the group explaining my circumstances and it was suggested to me that it sounded as if I had an old Linux module installed. Checked /lkm and found the modules dated the same as my last make world. Re-posted asking for more info on determining the age of the modules and question ignored. This is only pertinent here because it was a member of the FreeBSD team that made the module suggestion. I still don't have the bloody thing working, but one day I get it figured out. > >> > To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the >> > small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) >> >> Only in the US ;-) I would hope that the Australian experience with >> democracy differs from ours. If I were to be president or prime >> minister, that kind of thing would end in a heartbeat. If I have my >> say it won't happen here either. > > Errrr... I think we'll get a lot farther if we don't assume negatives > and cast aspersions from the start. :) Rather than dragging politics > and nationalism into the debate, let's focus on how we can serve our > community best. Errrr... your right. I took Sue's comment as a bit of fun and repplied in kind, not thinking ahead that this stuff is after all on a public mailing list and could be offensive to some. Frank > > Doug > -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:15:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02708 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02672 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:15:13 GMT (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id GAA08020; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:14:47 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980414061447.45261@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:14:47 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:31:09PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:31:09PM -0400: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I > > saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to > > "parsin", I think, although for all I know "uparshin" could be a > legitimate alternative. :) Well, actually, the correct word is "upharsin" (and not uparshin) or "parsin" (from a different translation, although I forget which). I don't have a Hebrew Bible nearby so I can't check "the original", but my guess would be that it has "upharsin" - the "u" bit introduces future tense and p->ph is required in this case by Hebrew phonetical rules (it's actually the same Hebrew letter). That's an odd thing to write about in freebsd-chat, too ;) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:23:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03444 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (esr@[192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03425 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:23:18 GMT (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15309; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:29:34 -0400 Message-ID: <19980413232933.11258@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:29:33 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Mark Mayo Cc: Wes Peters , "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980413231307.01919@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <19980413231307.01919@vmunix.com>; from Mark Mayo on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:13:07PM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Mayo : > Although there are 3 seperate BSDs, with a few big mouths that sometimes > take things personally, it is very unfair to categorize the entire > movement as you do. The only reason that this reputation > exists is that people like yourself continue to believe/promote it. The > only reason I can think of why you would continue to be mislead in this > fashion, is that you somehow feel better about the splintering of the > Linux groups by creating this mythical war between the BSD "factions" - then > you can compare yourself to this horrible BSD group and feel all warm > and fuzzy inside. Sigh. I *told* you not to bother getting indignant at me. I very much want what you're saying to be true, but you're doing a poor job of convincing me so far. I'm no rabid Linux partisan (I learned my Unix chops under 4.1BSD back in VAX days) and ad-hominem attacks only lead me to suspect that your objective case is weak. -- Eric S. Raymond There's a truism that the road to Hell is often paved with good intentions. The corollary is that evil is best known not by its motives but by its *methods*. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:28:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04645 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA04637 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:28:24 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA28306 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:28:23 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA10235 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:27:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Repost the man of the century URL Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Could somone repost the man of the century URL so I can vote for Linus Torvalds. I am with Mr. Lehey. A vote for Linus is a vote for free software. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:30:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05050 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05044 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:30:18 GMT (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA01169; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 3skel.com (localhost.3skel.com [127.0.0.1]) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA12866; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3532D844.E173B93C@3skel.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:30:12 -0400 From: Dan Janowski Organization: Triskelion Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Das Devaraj CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Das Devaraj wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > - Specify whom this system is for > (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) This is not really true. It seems that way because there is ashortage of desktop type applications. We are not going to hit the MS desktop. The completeness and ease of use for most is there. If not a server or a common desktop, then what? > - What kind of hardware is needed to run it > - What advantages will they get from using it > (sorry, a technical description of BSD will not cut it) > - What kind of support they can expect from it > (most businesses would rather pay money for support than > hire expensive technical help) > - What kind of skill level is needed to operate it > (many people who post to various FreeBSD mailing lists seem to > know *way more than* what even experts in the business world know) UI for a more graphical desktop/system manager. People getfreaked out when they have to deal with the system itself. Everything from permissions to installing software. Who can we really appeal to in a mass market? > - What will be the channel > (will it be distributed by Walnut Creek CDROM -- probably I can > ask them, have an office only a few miles from them! Or will > it be distributed by VARs?) > Are we tring to put ourselves more squarely in the Unix Server market or are we going after the home user that plays with Linux now, but may be interested in something more serious. Or something else? -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:43:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA07263; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:43:31 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-25.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.74]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01335; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:41:09 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980413204217.006a39f8@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:42:17 -0700 To: Sue Blake , Frank Pawlak From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980413123654.14293@welearn.com.au> References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all!! You know, I've been saying this all along....FreeBSD needs promotion. I was at the bookstore today in the Unix section....not one FreeBSD (or BSD for that matter) book did I see. None. Zilch. Nada. Although, there were more Linux books than I have fingers and toes (10 fingers, 10 toes =P ). There were also books on SCO Unix and Solaris. Well after getting tired of looking at books, I went over to the magazine rack and BAM .... there it was ... a Linux magazine. (Linux Journal) Linux, Linux everywhere. We all know that Linux has a big following....hell even I use it, just because I heard about Linux before I heard about FreeBSD ... or BSD for that matter. I learned about Unix and Linux when I kept getting nuked off IRC. Anyways, I've been using Linux for a little while now ... but I have read enough about BSD and FreeBSD to know that it's worth a try. "If Yahoo can swear by it....then it must be good", I thought. Anyways, I'm still getting more information about FreeBSD (and the other BSD's) before I migrate, but things would have helped if there were more promotion of FreeBSD...as in books, magazines (online or in print), etc. So basically...I'm willing to put forth some effort to promote FreeBSD (to help myself and others learn more about it) as in user groups or something within my area. I live in Los Angeles...and that's a big area. :) I'm willing to think about this and try to figure out ways in order to show the world that FreeBSD exists and stuff. The point of all this is that I'm up for the task of FreeBSD promotion. Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:43:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA07265; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:43:31 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-25.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.74]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01350; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:41:13 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980413204241.006a6064@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:42:41 -0700 To: Sue Blake , Frank Pawlak From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all!! You know, I've been saying this all along....FreeBSD needs promotion. I was at the bookstore today in the Unix section....not one FreeBSD (or BSD for that matter) book did I see. None. Zilch. Nada. Although, there were more Linux books than I have fingers and toes (10 fingers, 10 toes =P ). There were also books on SCO Unix and Solaris. Well after getting tired of looking at books, I went over to the magazine rack and BAM .... there it was ... a Linux magazine. (Linux Journal) Linux, Linux everywhere. We all know that Linux has a big following....hell even I use it, just because I heard about Linux before I heard about FreeBSD ... or BSD for that matter. I learned about Unix and Linux when I kept getting nuked off IRC. Anyways, I've been using Linux for a little while now ... but I have read enough about BSD and FreeBSD to know that it's worth a try. "If Yahoo can swear by it....then it must be good", I thought. Anyways, I'm still getting more information about FreeBSD (and the other BSD's) before I migrate, but things would have helped if there were more promotion of FreeBSD...as in books, magazines (online or in print), etc. So basically...I'm willing to put forth some effort to promote FreeBSD (to help myself and others learn more about it) as in user groups or something within my area. I live in Los Angeles...and that's a big area. :) I'm willing to think about this and try to figure out ways in order to show the world that FreeBSD exists and stuff. The point of all this is that I'm up for the task of FreeBSD promotion. Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08435 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08418 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:45:21 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25449; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:15:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA19681; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:15:12 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414131511.G17151@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:15:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Democracy? (was: Project FreeBSD 98) References: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804132126.QAA01740@darkstar.connect.com> <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 09:07:02AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 9:07:02 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >> This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, >> remember that this is a democracy. > > To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the > small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) Hmm. I had always thought of the FreeBSD lists as being an anarchy, not a democracy. Comments? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:46:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08732 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcc.wcc.net (wcc.wcc.net [208.6.232.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08710 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:46:20 GMT (envelope-from piquan@wcc.wcc.net) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tnt81.wcc.net [208.10.139.81]) by wcc.wcc.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01384; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:41:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08162; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:29:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:29:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140329.WAA08162@detlev.UUCP> To: supporters@lemis.com CC: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, supporters@nanyang-computer.com, random-gratuitousity@gnu.org In-reply-to: <199804130436.WAA07182@lariat.lariat.org> (message from Brett Glass on Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:36:09 -0600) Subject: Re: New name? From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130313.VAA06062@lariat.lariat.org> <199804130436.WAA07182@lariat.lariat.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Other names that were mentioned are "BSD Gold" and "BSD 2000". > "Gold" would imply a premium product. Let's leave that one for > some enterprising soul who wants to do with the OS what Caldera > has done with Linux. > As for the "2000" bit: I'd be turned off by bad associations: > Berke Breathed's "Banana 2000" (Ptui! ;-), the Y2K problem, and > Microsoft's product nomenclature. Which makes me wonder (and sorry if this is a standard one that I've never seen outside of my shop): In two years, will we get Windows 0? Microsoft: Where the product names aren't even Y2K compliant. Cheers, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 20:54:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09901 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fos.doriath.org (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09885 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:54:16 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by fos.doriath.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01186; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:53:09 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) X-Authentication-Warning: fos.doriath.org: mellon set sender to mellon@pobox.com using -f Message-ID: <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:52:32 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric, You, Eric S. Raymond, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400: > Wes Peters : > > A third scenario that is less likely but would still help would be > > convergence of the disparate groups back into one organization. It's > > really too bad we have to have three web sites, three ftp server > > organizations, three differing (and more or less successful) CD-ROM > > programs, etc., for what are very similar products. > > That's the key thing, IMO. The fact that the BSD crowd is split into > squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions, while Linux looks > pretty much like one big happy family united under benign Daddy > Torvalds, negates every single technical advantage you guys have. As others in this thread have tried to explain at length, the split is not nearly as damaging _technically_ as one might think, though this, alas, has no direct relevance to how the split is _perceived_ by people who have never tried {Free,Net,Open}BSD. Another thing you neglect to mention (if you are aware of it) is that Linux is united only in the kernel part. In fact, _to a user_, there are many more differences (IMHO) between Slackware and Red Hat than between FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Standartised userland as part of the OS is a huge benefit of the BSD crowd. The overall structure of the system - especially the source tree and the ports system - is much better in the BSD camp. In which Linux distributions you can 'make world' to build _all_ of the OS (with compiler, make, etc. used for building being built as part of the process)? What about 'make install' in a port directory for retreiving a tarball off one of many distribution sites, extracting, patching to build on FreeBSD if needed, configuring, building, and installing, all with one command? But the more interesting thing about your question seems to be your belief that BSD is doomed to oblivion. Before you ask us to convince you you're wrong, how about spelling out exactly _how_ it will die? Let us focus on FreeBSD. What we have here is a system with a huge number of users (25,000 registered ones, and you know very well how rarely people bother to), but more importantly, with very large number of dedicated developers, many of whom not only like to play with the system, but use it as a primary OS on their software/ISP/whatever business. They are, as a rule, not fanatical about it, but will calmly and intelligently explain why FreeBSD is, for many reasons, the most stable, advanced, fast and in other ways best OS for them. In their opinion Linux is quite inferior to FreeBSD in technical excellence, which is what they _need_ from an OS. Why would they cease improving and advancing FreeBSD in the next 3 years? To play a devil's advocate and assume your part, I can imagine 2 possible answers (please bring more if you have them; I'm quoting what I heard from other people propheting BSD death): a) BSD won't really die, but Linux will grow so much noone will notice BSD or know what it is; b) Linux will quickly support all the hardware/be supported by software companies, so everyone will have to either use Microsoft OSes or Linux. What's interesting about both these possible answers (and note, by the way, that FreeBSD has excellent binary-level Linux compatibility support and we run e.g. StarOffice just fine) is not whether they are right or wrong. They simply remind me so much the situation of, say, 4 years ago, with Microsoft-Linux instead of Linux-BSD. What I used to hear back then from friends of mine who were sympathetic to Linux but certain it would fail were exactly these things. Microsoft is everywhere, they were saying, and Linux won't be able to keep up even with new hardware on the PC market. And what about Word or Excel? And even if Linux manages to survive on some hackers' desks, NT (or 95) will be everywhere in 3 years, you just won't notice Linux, it'll be so insignificant. What a striking similarity to what I hear today from some Linux advocates! Linux did _not_ fail, however; and one of the main reasons it didn't, was simply because it was technically superior to Windows and had many supporters who cared about this superiority. Also, the average Linux user was much much more mature and knowledgable than an average Windows 95 user. But that is more or less the situation with Linux vs. FreeBSD today; the BSD people are feeling very strongly that their OS is technically superior for many reasons, and, in most of the cases, they succeed in demonstrating that simply by urging their opponent to actually work with FreeBSD and see with his/her own eyes that it's faster/more stable/much more mature/etc. The same goes for the user culture of the two OSes, and average cluelessness of a user - this is quite easily seen even by comparing BSD mailing lists/newsgroups with their Linux equivalents. There are much less users of FreeBSD than of Linux who always work as root, and know only the -l option of ls because they have it aliased to dir ;-) So what I'm saying, essentially, is that BSD won't die for some of the same reasons Linux didn't. By the way, why don't _you_ try FreeBSD for yourself if you haven't yet? It's one thing to agree with us on technical merits of BSD vs. Linux and quite another to experience them for yourself ;). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:00:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10549 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@kenya-135.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.227.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10524 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:12 GMT (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17652 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:00:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: From the fortunes file... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was looking for a decent signature in the fortunes file, and look what popped up. I guess this could be taken a few ways. And what's the Linux mascot again? zippy:~#/usr/games/fortune "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." - alex "We are upping our standards ... so up yours." - Pat Paulsen for US of A Prez, 1988. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:14:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12345 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:14:05 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09546; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:18:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980414001852.21043@vmunix.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:18:52 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Wes Peters , "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980413231307.01919@vmunix.com> <19980413232933.11258@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980413232933.11258@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:29:33PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:29:33PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Sigh. I *told* you not to bother getting indignant at me. I very > much want what you're saying to be true, but you're doing a poor job > of convincing me so far. I'm no rabid Linux partisan (I learned my > Unix chops under 4.1BSD back in VAX days) and ad-hominem attacks only > lead me to suspect that your objective case is weak. Sorry. I didn't mean to craft an attack against you, but statements like "the BSD crowd is split into squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions" get me all riled up. :-) Obviously, the only way you can truly be convinced of the openess between the BSDs is to look at the source and see the code-sharing in action. I've never personally seen any bitter disputes between the BSD camps; actually quite the opposite. The developers seems to be very friendly and respect each other. Of course, I'm young and therefore new to the BSD world, and things may very well have been different in the past, but I simply see no evidence of it today. The three "free" BSDs have distinct goals, and they fill their respective niches very well, and complement each other perfectly, IMHO. :-) A gross generalization might be to day that FreeBSD has always been focused on performance on the x86 platform (although that is changing) and simply making things work so people can get work done. NetBSD seems to be very focused on platform independance, and "doing things right" even if it means they sometimes don't get done at all. OpenBSD has, from the start, been very security minded. All 3 pick up things from each other, and benefit from each others existance. The seperation is a way of letting interested parties work on projects that best suit their skills, and work in environments that best suit their needs. I agree that a "Unified BSD" would possibly have better luck at marketing itself, but the fact remains that the current setup allows for incredible technical innovation - and that's a quality that very few people developing or using a BSD would be willing to loose. -Mark > -- > Eric S. Raymond > > There's a truism that the road to Hell is often paved with good intentions. > The corollary is that evil is best known not by its motives but by its > *methods*. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:16:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12751 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6597.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12744 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:16:26 GMT (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00257; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:13:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:13:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Gerald Heinig cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spelling etc. In-Reply-To: <35329CF4.65DE8E18@hdz-ima.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Gerald Heinig wrote: > Apart from numerous occasions where misleading documentation has caused > hours of pointless experimentation, making really *basic* spelling > mistakes gives a product a very tacky feel. The idea is: if they can´t > even get simple spelling right, what´s their code going to look like? Submit PRs where we have it wrong in our documentation, please. No one save no one is arguing about using "whose" and "who's" in the proper places because we all agree that they should be used in the proper places! :) Mistakes happen. Sometimes (often?) hands type what they hear, not what they think. This isn't about not getting simple spelling right; it's about not having enough time/volunteers to proofread. Somewhere in here there is probably an interesting insight into how the brain works. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:21:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13393 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:21:42 GMT (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA19384; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980413212110.16276@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:21:10 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey Cc: Sue Blake , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Democracy? (was: Project FreeBSD 98) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804132126.QAA01740@darkstar.connect.com> <19980414090702.03034@welearn.com.au> <19980414131511.G17151@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19980414131511.G17151@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:15:11PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:15:11PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 9:07:02 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >> This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on > >> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, > >> remember that this is a democracy. > > > > To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the > > small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) > > Hmm. I had always thought of the FreeBSD lists as being an anarchy, > not a democracy. > > Comments? > Greg > As Sue has pointed out, democracy is where the strong screw the weak. Democracy is an illusion, Bread and Circuses. Anarchy is best. My Wobbly Grandfather would be proud. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef "Remember Haymarket" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:31:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA14449 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:30:48 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25501; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:00:07 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00572; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:00:06 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414140006.A343@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:00:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Anatoly Vorobey , Tim Vanderhoek Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414061447.45261@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <19980414061447.45261@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 06:14:47AM +0300 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 6:14:47 +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:31:09PM -0400: >> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> >>> Linux, because (a) I believe you, and (b) it doesn't matter. I think I >>> saw "Mene, mene, tekel, uparshin" on your wall when you guys failed to >> >> "parsin", I think, although for all I know "uparshin" could be a >> legitimate alternative. :) > > Well, actually, the correct word is "upharsin" (and not > uparshin) or "parsin" (from a different translation, although > I forget which). I don't have a Hebrew Bible nearby so I can't > check "the original", but my guess would be that it has > "upharsin" - the "u" bit introduces future tense and p->ph > is required in this case by Hebrew phonetical rules (it's > actually the same Hebrew letter). > > That's an odd thing to write about in freebsd-chat, too ;) I wonder if that's the attitude that Belshazzar and friends had when the writing appeared on the wall. It appears that the words are names for Aramaean weights. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:37:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15005 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA14963 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:37:02 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25508; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:06:52 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00590; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:06:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414140652.B343@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:06:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: esr@thyrsus.com, Wes Peters Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:56:47PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 21:56:47 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Wes Peters : >> A third scenario that is less likely but would still help would be >> convergence of the disparate groups back into one organization. It's >> really too bad we have to have three web sites, three ftp server >> organizations, three differing (and more or less successful) CD-ROM >> programs, etc., for what are very similar products. > > That's the key thing, IMO. The fact that the BSD crowd is split into > squabbling spinoff-group-of-the-week factions, while Linux looks > pretty much like one big happy family united under benign Daddy > Torvalds, negates every single technical advantage you guys have. I don't think it changes the technical advantages. If anything, it outweighs them. I also wonder if your information is up-to-date. This sounds like a criticism out of the past, say about four or five years ago, when we had the Jesus and Jordan show, the Amancio and Thomas show, not to mention the sideshows between the main *BSD factions to which I didn't pay much attention. People have grown more mature (or maybe just tired? :-) since then. In any case, I can't agree with you that the unity of Linux outweighs the two and seventy jarring BSD sects. I can't see many of the FreeBSD people joining the Linux camp. A fusion of the *BSD sects is more likely. And there's no compelling reason to do so. Yes, you could be right that *BSD will lose ground to Linux, but I'm sure it will continue to grow nonetheless. >> At some time, once Linux starts getting really entrenched in a couple >> of highly visible businesses, somebody's going to hit a snag running >> a TurboLinux application on a RedHat server or some such silly bunch >> of rot, and they're going to tell some hare-brained "journalist" >> about it, and the PC rags are going to have a heyday. "See, we told >> you this Linux stuff was for the birds, trust Microsoft. Their >> products are perfect, and their dedicated support staff will take care >> of you." > > It would be *very* unwise to hope for this. For one thing, if your > story about BSD being preferable for highly-stressed, high-throughput > network servers is true, it's about as likely you'll get bit as a > Linux box will. And, in any case, if you think the pinheads who > inhabit the trade press wouldn't rush to interpret a conspicuous Linux > failure as a slam on *all* open-source/Unix OSs, you're dreaming. Correct. If there's one fault the *BSD people have, it's viewing Linux as the enemy. Linux reminds me more of my sister: we're closely related, and we'll defend each other towards the outside world, but we really don't get on that well with each other. FreeBSD's doing quite well, thanks. I don't know if people would be happy if it drew all the crowds of followers that Linux does. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:40:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15594 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15531 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:40:12 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (cadezia-85.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.82.85]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id EAA07027; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:40:06 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00267; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:40:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140440.XAA00267@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:40:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Democracy? (was: Project FreeBSD 98) To: chat@freebad.org cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980414131511.G17151@freebie.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 9:07:02 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 04:26:11PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >>> This is a first draft of our structure and all are invited to work on >>> perfecting it. Volunteers are needed to get names in the various slots, >>> remember that this is a democracy. >> >> To some people, a democracy means that the strong and numerous screw the >> small and timid. I don't think that's the kind you meant :-) > > Hmm. I had always thought of the FreeBSD lists as being an anarchy, > not a democracy. > > Comments? > Greg > Now that you mention it, allow me to re-phrase some things ;-) Frank > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 21:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16003 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15993 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:43:00 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25515; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:12:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00624; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:12:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414141257.C343@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:12:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , chat@freebad.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Democracy? (was: Project FreeBSD 98) References: <19980414131511.G17151@freebie.lemis.com> <199804140440.XAA00267@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804140440.XAA00267@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:40:04PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 23:40:04 -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On 14 Apr, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Hmm. I had always thought of the FreeBSD lists as being an anarchy, >> not a democracy. > > Now that you mention it, allow me to re-phrase some things ;-) Sure, go right ahead. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 22:47:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28167 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28161 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:47:31 GMT (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA07251; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:45:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980414014549.20496@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:45:49 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, esr@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 06:52:32AM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 06:52:32AM +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > What I used to hear back then from friends of mine who were > sympathetic to Linux but certain it would fail were exactly these > things. Microsoft is everywhere, they were saying, and Linux won't > be able to keep up even with new hardware on the PC market. And > what about Word or Excel? And even if Linux manages to survive > on some hackers' desks, NT (or 95) will be everywhere in 3 years, > you just won't notice Linux, it'll be so insignificant. What a > striking similarity to what I hear today from some Linux advocates! On a related (if off-topic) note, this reminds me a lot of the constant OS/2 Warp-vs.-Win3.1 holy wars of 1994-1995...the difference here is that since OS/2 wasn't (and isn't, and will probably never be) a free, open-source product, the people who were fans of it couldn't directly influence its direction--that was in the hands of IBM alone, and they botched what could ahve been an excellent lead, and a great stand against Win95. Linux and *BSD don't have this problem; as long as they have supporters, like me for example, they WILL NOT die because of the openness and sharing-orientedness of the software--they don't have their very existence tied to a board of directors at some large corporation. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 22:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (esr@[192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28853 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:54:18 GMT (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15549; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:59:20 -0400 Message-ID: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:59:20 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 06:52:32AM +0000 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey : > To play a devil's advocate and assume your part, I can imagine 2 > possible answers (please bring more if you have them; I'm quoting > what I heard from other people propheting BSD death): > a) BSD won't really die, but Linux will grow so > much noone will notice BSD or know what it is; b) Linux will > quickly support all the hardware/be supported by software companies, > so everyone will have to either use Microsoft OSes or Linux. None of the above. What I expect will happen (not `want', but `expect') is that the BSDs will run out of development energy because the people who would otherwise join them will decide it makes more sense to be where the crowds (and the attention, and the money) are, over in Linuxland. OK, you can come back at me with "If that's the way it works, why hasn't Windows won?" But the cases aren't parallel. There's a lot of stuff you just can't do in Windows. Moving to Linux, OTOH, doesn't lose developers a lot and lets them respect themselves in the morning. ;-) I'm sorry but I just don't find unified userland much of a draw. The flip side of unified userland is that you throw away Linux's potential to be all things to all people. Similarly, the idea that I can make all with a single command is technically sweet but kind of pointless unless I'm an OS integrator myself. It certainly ain't gonna do jack for the end-user. That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of 25,000 registered users is very encouraging. BTW, I understand I actually have code in the FreeBSD kernel. Somebody told me you guys use a variant of the PC speaker driver I wrote for SysV way back when. If this is still true, it's very amusing considering where I spend most of my hacking time these days. I don't have code in the *Linux* kernel... :-) -- Eric S. Raymond Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 23:20:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03615 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA03606 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:20:46 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15623; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> To: esr@thyrsus.com cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:59:20 EDT." <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:18:55 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt >about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of >25,000 registered users is very encouraging. If we use the same yardsticks that Linux does to estimate installed base, then FreeBSD would be on about 500,000 machines. No joke. Let me also say that, at least at WC CDROM, Linux sales have pretty much stopped increasing, while FreeBSD sales continue to double every year. Based purely on CDROM sales projections, FreeBSD will be caught up with Linux by the year 2000. As someone else pointed out, we get a large number of new users as converts from Linux. I'm happy to say that the converse is apparantly not true. I for one believe that the war is with Windows/*, and not between the Unix-like systems. Given a choice between Linux and Windows, the choice is a simple one. There are plenty of reasons why I don't like Linux myself, but I certainly have no desire for it to fail; the more people it can keep from the clutches of Microsoft, the better. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 23:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06167 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06140 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:31:57 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09998; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:35:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980414023527.63292@vmunix.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:35:27 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: esr@thyrsus.com, Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org> <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com>; from Eric S. Raymond on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:59:20AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:59:20AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Anatoly Vorobey : > > To play a devil's advocate and assume your part, I can imagine 2 > > possible answers (please bring more if you have them; I'm quoting > > what I heard from other people propheting BSD death): > > a) BSD won't really die, but Linux will grow so > > much noone will notice BSD or know what it is; b) Linux will > > quickly support all the hardware/be supported by software companies, > > so everyone will have to either use Microsoft OSes or Linux. > > None of the above. What I expect will happen (not `want', but `expect') > is that the BSDs will run out of development energy because the people > who would otherwise join them will decide it makes more sense to be where > the crowds (and the attention, and the money) are, over in Linuxland. While the crowds of Linuxland might attrack more developers, the money factor works in FreeBSD's favor for people doing things like embedded systems and such. The BSD license gives you a lot of commercial freedom, and I think many people will (and have) choose FreeBSD as their OS of choice for black-box solutions.. Whether or not this gets us huge media attention or not is really not important - it will get us developers that will keep the project pumping. An interesting side note: A friend of mine works at QNX. He told me that their #1 "competitor" right now is FreeBSD. Not Windows, not Linux, not PharLap - FreeBSD. Why? People can develop embedded apps on it for free, and if they fly, can easily turn the project commercial and reap the financial rewards. Of course, he also mentioned that many of their customers develop initially on FreeBSD, but then deploy on QNX since they can do the "real" embedded hardware sutff on QNX, etc, etc.. Another case study: I recently did a job interview at ConnectTech, a company that makes multi-port serial boards, and they upfront told me that many of their customers were enquiring about FreeBSD for their manufacturing control systems. ConnectTech was looking for a BSD device driver writer. They considered FreeBSD to be the up and coming player. Very positive. :-) Add that to the fact that the largest FTP (ftp.cdrom.com), HTTP (www.yahoo.com), IRC (irc.dal.net), and Movie Databases (Internet Movie Database) in the world are powered by FreeBSD and I think we've got, unquestionably, a great product.. Demanding users are choosing FreeBSD today, I don't see why they won't in the future. And yes, we do have enough developers to keep on top of the major hardware trends. > That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt > about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of > 25,000 registered users is very encouraging. Agreed. Anatoly presented the best logic. :) My spin: technical/demanding users will always exist, and they will always prefer the most technically advanced OS. This is FreeBSD's community now to a large extent, and I don't see that ever changing. Whether or not we can extend it to be more of a mainstream success like Linux is becoming is the question. I think we can, but even if we don't, I still don't consider that "death" and will continue to be happy on my BSD system. :-) > BTW, I understand I actually have code in the FreeBSD kernel. Somebody > told me you guys use a variant of the PC speaker driver I wrote for SysV way > back when. If this is still true, it's very amusing considering where I > spend most of my hacking time these days. I don't have code in the > *Linux* kernel... :-) Indeed: /* * spkr.c -- device driver for console speaker * * v1.4 by Eric S. Raymond (esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Aug 1993 * modified for FreeBSD by Andrew A. Chernov * * $Id: spkr.c,v 1.33 1998/02/20 13:46:55 bde Exp $ */ :-) Time to get back to your roots perhaps? :-) -Mark > -- > Eric S. Raymond > > Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may > be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons > than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may > sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those > who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they > do so with the approval of their consciences. > -- C. S. Lewis > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 23:36:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:36:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07334 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:36:12 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10022; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:41:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980414024100.13293@vmunix.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:41:00 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: dg@root.com, esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: [SNIP] > not true. I for one believe that the war is with Windows/*, and not > between the Unix-like systems. Given a choice between Linux and Windows, > the choice is a simple one. There are plenty of reasons why I don't like > Linux myself, but I certainly have no desire for it to fail; the more > people it can keep from the clutches of Microsoft, the better. I whole heartedly agree. The real war is with Windows, and it appears certain now that free Unix is indeed making some serious progress. The fact that we actually have several *superb* choices on the free unix front is nothing less than miraculous. In retrospect, it's pure luxury, and while I'd be sad to see the BSD community not make it up there with Linux in the mainstream, I'd sure as hell be happy as heck to be able to run and develop under Linux as opposed to a M$ "OS". :-) -Mark > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 23:40:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08200 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:40:36 GMT (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA20439; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980413234027.16223@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:40:27 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt > >about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of > >25,000 registered users is very encouraging. > > If we use the same yardsticks that Linux does to estimate installed base, > then FreeBSD would be on about 500,000 machines. No joke. David, I am confused. Could you explain what yardstick Linux uses? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 13 23:51:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09349 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09340 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:50:53 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25741; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:20:50 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA02153; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:20:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980414162049.F1870@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:20:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> <19980413234027.16223@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980413234027.16223@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:40:27PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 23:40:27 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>> That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt >>> about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of >>> 25,000 registered users is very encouraging. >> >> If we use the same yardsticks that Linux does to estimate installed base, >> then FreeBSD would be on about 500,000 machines. No joke. > > I am confused. Could you explain what yardstick Linux uses? Only slightly simplified: "Well, if everybody who should be using Linux really does use it, we might have 20,000,000 users. I'd guess that only about 1/4 of them really do, so Linux must have 5,000,000 users". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 00:06:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10587 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10582 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:06:49 GMT (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA20569; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980414000629.46799@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:06:29 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> <19980413234027.16223@mooseriver.com> <19980414162049.F1870@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19980414162049.F1870@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 04:20:49PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 04:20:49PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 23:40:27 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >>> That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt > >>> about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of > >>> 25,000 registered users is very encouraging. > >> > >> If we use the same yardsticks that Linux does to estimate installed base, > >> then FreeBSD would be on about 500,000 machines. No joke. > > > > I am confused. Could you explain what yardstick Linux uses? > > Only slightly simplified: > > "Well, if everybody who should be using Linux really does use it, we > might have 20,000,000 users. I'd guess that only about 1/4 of them > really do, so Linux must have 5,000,000 users". > Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I guess I was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my Probability and Statistics class in college. ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 00:09:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10887 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10876 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:09:19 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-253.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.253]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA57456; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:09:06 GMT Message-ID: <35330B7C.8891DE84@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:08:44 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414065232.07017@doriath.org> <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980414023527.63292@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My spin: technical/demanding users will always exist, and they will > always prefer the most technically advanced OS. This is FreeBSD's community > now to a large extent, and I don't see that ever changing. Whether or > not we can extend it to be more of a mainstream success like Linux is > becoming is the question. I think we can, but even if we don't, I still > don't consider that "death" and will continue to be happy on my BSD system. > :-) Agreed. How can anything 'die' with source code available? My only doubt is a shadow caused by these new hardware standards like I2O which are closely held in-group things, not for public discussion. USB we can do, Firewire we can do, but I2O we're not allowed, unless somebody reverses it or buys a commercial license and packages a binary for us. Since that's a server-centric development, we should be scared into doing something now, although I'm not anywhere close to being a kernel hacker yet to be able to do it myself. The universal clone PC market is drying up, and unless we create enough of a market for them to continue to make these generic PCI+ISA boards we like, we are dead. WinHEC was Microsoft's bid for closed hardware once again, and everybody was listening. Unless we all (Linux included) grow _fast_, we are in trouble. It will take a while, but sooner or later the chipsets will disappear. Intel's already virtually blasted the marketplace, and they're on a forced march forward. I realize I'm early at singing these blues, but it's to give a little fiery coal down the shorts of everybody -- including myself -- that I write. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 00:10:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:10:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6597.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10861 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:08:57 GMT (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA00821; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:06:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:06:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-Reply-To: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > None of the above. What I expect will happen (not `want', but `expect') > is that the BSDs will run out of development energy because the people > who would otherwise join them will decide it makes more sense to be where > the crowds (and the attention, and the money) are, over in Linuxland. I think, ultimately, that we are trying to predict the future, and history has been notoriously hard on people doing this. Look, perhaps three years from now FreeBSD will be gone, but in the meantime, there will be people coming from The Other Side for whom, for whatever reason, Linux is simply not attractive. Maybe the perceived chaos is too big a jump. Maybe the SysV nature. Maybe the damn penguin, who knows! For some of these people, FreeBSD can provide an easier introduction to Our Side, a stepping-stone, if you will, until they too join the great big blob of Linux. By providing choice, we are helping the general cause. What I'm saying here is that it's ok to believe that the *BSDs will be gone in three years, but please do _not_ try to prod us onto our death. Systematic manipulation with the intent to harm the *BSDs in Linux's favour has been going on. Even when you, in a much less malicious fashion, ignore or downplay the *BSDs in your comments, that is hurting us, and hurting The Cause in general. If, for a new convert, one of the *BSDs is the right choice, then you should reccomend or at least mention it, instead of simply saying "Use Linux; Linux is the future!". A happy convert is a better convert, and if a *BSD makes them happier, then . . . > OK, you can come back at me with "If that's the way it works, why hasn't > Windows won?" But the cases aren't parallel. There's a lot of stuff you > just can't do in Windows. Moving to Linux, OTOH, doesn't lose developers > a lot and lets them respect themselves in the morning. ;-) Suffice it to say, I disagree strongly and have no personal doubt that FreeBSD will survive past the millenium. However, I don't think this matters. You should refrain, and encourage others to refrain, from campaigns against the *BSDs because, regardless of the future, that is the best thing for Our Side. Those converted to the *BSDs will have time to move to Linux when Linux is ready for them, but until then, if a *BSD suits them better, they should use it. > I'm sorry but I just don't find unified userland much of a draw. The > flip side of unified userland is that you throw away Linux's potential > to be all things to all people. Similarly, the idea that I can make Bah! I don't buy it. > BTW, I understand I actually have code in the FreeBSD kernel. Somebody > told me you guys use a variant of the PC speaker driver I wrote for SysV way > back when. If this is still true, it's very amusing considering where I > spend most of my hacking time these days. I don't have code in the > *Linux* kernel... :-) We try to accomodate all developers. ;-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 00:17:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12153 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12144 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:17:21 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-253.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.253]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA47084; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:17:18 GMT Message-ID: <35330D68.2A96EDCE@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:16:56 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <19980414015920.30944@snark.thyrsus.com> <199804140618.XAA15623@implode.root.com> <19980413234027.16223@mooseriver.com> <19980414162049.F1870@freebie.lemis.com> <19980414000629.46799@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I guess I > was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my Probability and > Statistics class in college. ;-) mmm, maybe that's the answer: spin out of control and hope enough people write 'dummies' books to try to profit from your huge user base, creating a huge hungry base of people who have to justify their $30 books... GNU's Not UNIX... FreeBSD's Not Linux.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz disconnect timeout. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 00:27:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13777 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:27:35 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (aargau-5.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.85.133]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id HAA13233 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:27:34 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00768 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804140727.CAA00768@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:27:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Open Source Products To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980414162049.F1870@freebie.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 23:40:27 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:18:55PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>>> That said, you've done the best job of anyone here of raising doubt >>>> about my pessimistic BSD-will-die scenario in my mind. That figure of >>>> 25,000 registered users is very encouraging. >>> >>> If we use the same yardsticks that Linux does to estimate installed base, >>> then FreeBSD would be on about 500,000 machines. No joke. >> >> I am confused. Could you explain what yardstick Linux uses? If you are really interested in some statistical wizdardry, check out RedHat's web site. They had a doc there that explained the guesstimates Frank > > Only slightly simplified: > > "Well, if everybody who should be using Linux really does use it, we > might have 20,000,000 users. I'd guess that only about 1/4 of them > really do, so Linux must have 5,000,000 users". > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 01:19:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22165 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22146; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:19:12 GMT (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id MAA19162; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:18:02 +0400 (MSD) Posted-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:18:02 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19980414121801.19183@demos.su> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:18:01 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Russian mirror] FreeBSD Mozilla. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I am glad to announce Russian mirror of cvs-mozilla tree is available since yesterday. There are no access limits, besides maximum simaltaneous clients figure - 255. To use it: *default prefix=/home/mozilla base=/home/mozilla host=mozilla.ru.FreeBSD.org rel ease=cvs delete compress use-rel-suffix ## Main Source Tree cvs-mozilla Mirror is updated hourly from mozilla.freebsd.org. Welcome. -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 03:15:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09387 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09381 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:15:46 GMT (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA13364 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:15:46 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:17:44 GMT Message-ID: <353436d1.1053890@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA09382 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:20:53 -0400 (EDT), gsutter@pobox.com wrote: >No ughs here! Linux isn't FreeBSD, but it's a free U**X. More than >that, it's free software. Let Linux lead the way, because it can. >Linux is "paving the road" to acceptance of free software. FreeBSD will >follow and show people just what quality free software is about. True. Linux users who want more from their OS will start looking around and find FreeBSD. I switched because Linux could not handle disk/network/serial I/O at the same time. I'm not sure Linux will ever get that problem solved, I saw where someone asked about it just a few days ago. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 03:42:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12875 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12841 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:41:59 GMT (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA14285; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:41:56 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:43:54 GMT Message-ID: <353538b4.1537692@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA12856 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:15:41 -0400, "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: >if anyone can spin a plausible scenario under which the BSDs >survive the next three years, I'd really love to hear it.) As DG pointed out, FreeBSD gets many converts from Linux, but few go back to Linux after using FreeBSD for more than a few days. I switched because of Linux' problems with disk/network/serial I/O all at the same time. Linux handles a load poorly while FreeBSD handles it very well. That's not just a technical aesthetics argument, it has practical application for everyday usage. Linux is accumulating public mindshare, but Linux users who need better performance will look around and find FreeBSD. Even if that's only a minority of perhaps 10% to 15%, Linux growth will cause more FreeBSD growth, not kill it. I think some people are comparing Linux vs. FreeBSD to what happened with Windows vs. OS/2 -- mostly because Linux has a big lead today. But FreeBSD is not a proprietary product sold by a declining company with inept management who are out of touch with a changing software market. As long as the source code remains "free," I expect FreeBSD to thrive. I think it has attracted more highly talented developers, and that's more important to me than having the largest user base. Users will never make my OS run better, only the developers will. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 04:29:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22416 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-34.airnet.net [209.64.77.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22398 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:29:20 GMT (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13717 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:27:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35334822.EAC1D39D@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:27:30 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... References: <199804140110.UAA04014@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Sean Harding writes: > > > > Most of the "Linux users" (maybe lusers) I know are surprisingly clueless. > > I was once of the belief that if someone is smart enough to shun Microsoft > > (all hail the King) and install Linux, they must be relatively clued--even > > if they don't agree with my OS choice. But I know a huge number of people > > who run Linux, and don't even *try* to learn about it. They alias 'ls' to > > 'dir,' run as root all the time and use the GUI admin tools for > > everything. > > That reminds me of one of the things that bugged me about Slackware and/ > or SLS Linux many years ago - first thing I had to do after an install > is remove those #%$^@ pre-installed DOSism aliases. > Funny, after installing FreeBSD I found it necessary to write DOS batchfiles to perform the DOS equivalent of the UN*X command. The tendency to type "ls -la" is so strong.... :-) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 05:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01718 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kris.wpi.edu (kris.WPI.EDU [130.215.64.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01713 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:14:32 GMT (envelope-from rick@kris.wpi.edu) Received: (from rick@localhost) by kris.wpi.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08648; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:24:53 GMT From: "Rick C. Petty" Message-Id: <199804141224.MAA08648@kris.wpi.edu> Subject: Re: Repost the man of the century URL In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at "Apr 13, 98 07:27:15 pm" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Files: Trust no one! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Could somone repost the man of the century URL so I can vote for Linus > Torvalds. > > I am with Mr. Lehey. A vote for Linus is a vote for free software. http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html Make sure you place his name (if you do so) under the "Builders and Titans" field. --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 05:54:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08352 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08341 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:54:13 GMT (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.31.188.21] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id la645123 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:53:47 +0100 Received: (qmail 1251 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 1998 12:43:49 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:43:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Success! (was: Installing and Running FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19980414081124.D8828@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from Andy Oram ----- > [...] > > I think you campaign of many years has paid off. Thanks to testimonials > > about FreeBSD from you and people working for us (as well as plenty of > > people on the Net) Tim and Frank now want to print an updated version of > > your book. [...] GO GREG GO!!!! :-) Marco --- Il mondo e' bello perche' e' Bacio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 06:46:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14824 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14813; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804141346.GAA14813@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-Reply-To: <19980414000629.46799@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "Apr 14, 98 00:06:29 am" To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I guess I > was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my Probability and > Statistics class in college. ;-) wrong class, this is discussed in detail in business schools and marketing classes. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 06:50:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15606 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15561 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:49:56 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23453; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:49:50 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA17885; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:49:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980414154948.11984@follo.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:49:48 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Frank Pawlak , Studded@san.rr.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <3532C5F7.B0F474C4@san.rr.com> <199804140311.WAA02630@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804140311.WAA02630@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:11:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:11:52PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: [...on intimidating posts...] > A simple minded personal example is Eric Raymond's post to chat in > which he mentions VCs. I don't have a clue what he means, so I had the > option of just letting it pass or post a question as to what a VC is. I > am sure that is a term common to most in the community, so there I was > somewhat hesitant to ask about it but I did anyway. I don't think there are anybody but Eric Raymond that know what that term meant. I didn't, at least. From context, it looked like it was Verylarge Companies or something like it. (I don't think it could have meant 'Version Control'. But the sentence is interesting if read that way :-) It isn't in my dictionaries, either. BTW: I think the reason you didn't get any reply from Eric S Raymond was that you didn't keep him Cc:'ed, but sent it only to -chat. He's not on -chat (and relying on a mailing list reaching somebody is usually not a good idea - many of us read mailing lists much less carefully than we read our personal mail.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 06:52:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15989 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:52:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15945 for chat; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804141352.GAA15945@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: FreeBSD in NC World To: chat Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org the marketing material is pretty heavy at the start about 1/3 of the way through it gets better. you may want to skip down to the section titled "Dysfunctional equivalent" http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 07:17:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19565 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:17:09 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (pm-pt2-15.ida.net [198.60.251.224]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12453 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:10:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35336FDC.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:17:00 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <3532C5F7.B0F474C4@san.rr.com> <199804140311.WAA02630@darkstar.connect.com> <19980414154948.11984@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:11:52PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > [...on intimidating posts...] > > A simple minded personal example is Eric Raymond's post to chat in > > which he mentions VCs. I don't have a clue what he means, so I had the > > option of just letting it pass or post a question as to what a VC is. I > > am sure that is a term common to most in the community, so there I was > > somewhat hesitant to ask about it but I did anyway. > > I don't think there are anybody but Eric Raymond that know what that > term meant. I didn't, at least. From context, it looked like it was > Verylarge Companies or something like it. (I don't think it could > have meant 'Version Control'. But the sentence is interesting if read > that way :-) > > It isn't in my dictionaries, either. Venture Capitalists? I dunno. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 07:41:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23599 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23555 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:41:05 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-87.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.87]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA72238; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:40:46 GMT Message-ID: <35337557.F718A6F8@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:40:23 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: Frank Pawlak , Studded@san.rr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 References: <3532C5F7.B0F474C4@san.rr.com> <199804140311.WAA02630@darkstar.connect.com> <19980414154948.11984@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was pretty clear from context that he meant vulture... err, 'venture capitalists' sitting up and taking notice ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 07:46:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24964 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:46:29 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-87.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.87]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA77118; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:46:18 GMT Message-ID: <353376A3.ED81EA2D@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:45:55 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rick C. Petty" CC: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Repost the man of the century URL References: <199804141224.MAA08648@kris.wpi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I am with Mr. Lehey. A vote for Linus is a vote for free software. > > http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html > > Make sure you place his name (if you do so) under the "Builders and > Titans" field. > Actually, the %ages are very low. We could easily overtake Billy boy here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 09:59:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16514 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16480 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:59:17 GMT (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw [OUT])) id JAA23845; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 1.0)) id JAA13672; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:57:52 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA06743; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:57:50 -0600 Message-ID: <353395B3.BF79F6FB@xylan.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:58:27 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: esr@thyrsus.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <199804131719.LAA21122@narnia.plutotech.com> <35326353.4E30451B@xylan.com> <19980413201541.65522@snark.thyrsus.com> <3532AD36.2968F8B6@xylan.com> <19980413215647.37918@snark.thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters : > > At some time, once Linux starts getting really entrenched in a couple > > of highly visible businesses, somebody's going to hit a snag running > > a TurboLinux application on a RedHat server or some such silly bunch > > of rot, and they're going to tell some hare-brained "journalist" > > about it, and the PC rags are going to have a heyday. "See, we told > > you this Linux stuff was for the birds, trust Microsoft. Their > > products are perfect, and their dedicated support staff will take care > > of you." Eric S. Raymond wrote: > It would be *very* unwise to hope for this. For one thing, if your > story about BSD being preferable for highly-stressed, high-throughput > network servers is true, it's about as likely you'll get bit as a > Linux box will. And, in any case, if you think the pinheads who > inhabit the trade press wouldn't rush to interpret a conspicuous Linux > failure as a slam on *all* open-source/Unix OSs, you're dreaming. I don't hope for this, I live in fear of it. I see FreeBSD as a somewhat higher-end product related to Linux, at least in market terms. If anything disastrous happens to Linux in the commercial world, the chances of FreeBSD ever making significant penetration there are zero. What I was trying to point out is that in some significant ways, Linux is even *more* fractured than the separate *BSD offerings. Of course, if Red Hat continues their momentum, this may not be a problem by next year. ;^) -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 10:18:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20697 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20675 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:17:57 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10708 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:11:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353398C0.5BAE7C3B@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:11:28 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? References: <199804130945.CAA03678@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > ...it would still violate the trademark. A product name like > FreeBSD/Pro is definately not a problem, and is even (extremely) > likely, in fact. :-) I was just about to suggest that before I read your message :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 10:21:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21060 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21040; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:20:49 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04043; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:20:48 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA18507; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:20:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980414191927.51679@follo.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:19:27 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Mike , "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the place of vi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Mike on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:11:35PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:11:35PM -0400, Mike wrote: > I've just always firmly believed that 'not > knowing' is a great reason to learn... not to whine. Especially on a > -hackers list... where I'd like to think the kernel gurus hang out... Many of them don't, due to too many of these long-winded discussions. (Please don't take this as a flame for raising the issue). > and I'm sure they don't need to hear a discussion of why vi won't work in > single user mode. Absolutely. I actually think we need a freebsd-kernel list, possibly a moderated one. It would be nice to have some place where the kernel hackers would hang out (-current is presently functioning as this, but that is IMHO wrong - it tend to overload that list a bit). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 10:37:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25153 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25144 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:37:03 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (da-soocha-72.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.81.200]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA26234; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:36:59 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01645; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:36:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804141736.MAA01645@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:36:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Success! (was: Installing and Running FreeBSD) To: grog@lemis.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Congrats Greg -- you've made the show Frank On 14 Apr, Marco Molteni wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> ----- Forwarded message from Andy Oram ----- >> > > [...] > >> > I think you campaign of many years has paid off. Thanks to testimonials >> > about FreeBSD from you and people working for us (as well as plenty of >> > people on the Net) Tim and Frank now want to print an updated version of >> > your book. > > [...] > > GO GREG GO!!!! :-) > > Marco > --- > Il mondo e' bello perche' e' Bacio > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 10:59:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28610 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28598 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:59:15 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (da-soocha-72.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.81.200]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA28218; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:59:11 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01823; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:59:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804141759.MAA01823@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:59:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Project FreeBSD 98 To: muck@ida.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35336FDC.41C67EA6@ida.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, Mike wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: >> >> On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:11:52PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >> [...on intimidating posts...] >> > A simple minded personal example is Eric Raymond's post to chat in >> > which he mentions VCs. I don't have a clue what he means, so I had the >> > option of just letting it pass or post a question as to what a VC is. I >> > am sure that is a term common to most in the community, so there I was >> > somewhat hesitant to ask about it but I did anyway. >> >> I don't think there are anybody but Eric Raymond that know what that >> term meant. I didn't, at least. From context, it looked like it was >> Verylarge Companies or something like it. (I don't think it could >> have meant 'Version Control'. But the sentence is interesting if read >> that way :-) >> >> It isn't in my dictionaries, either. > > Venture Capitalists? I dunno. Bingo!! That is exactly what he was refferring to. Re-reading his post that make sense. And he's got a point. Frank > > Mike > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 11:09:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29858 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (cynix.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.198.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29773 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:09:35 GMT (envelope-from splite@purdue.edu) Received: (from splite@localhost) by cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12767 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:08:16 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Plite Message-Id: <199804141808.NAA12767@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: New name? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:08:15 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <353398C0.5BAE7C3B@internationalschool.co.uk> from "Stuart Henderson" at Apr 14, 98 06:11:28 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I believe it was Stuart Henderson who once wrote: > > David Greenman wrote: > > > > ...it would still violate the trademark. A product name like > > FreeBSD/Pro is definately not a problem, and is even (extremely) > > likely, in fact. :-) > > I was just about to suggest that before I read your message :) Why do I keep feeling deja vu all over again? (From "Alice in UNIX Land" by Lincoln Spector, Texas Computer Currents, September 1989, [a copy is at http://r62h121.res.gatech.edu/alcunix.html]) : "Well," responded the Sun Bear, "we've got to do something to make them : want to switch to UNIX." : : "Do you think," said a Woodpecker who had been busy making a hole in the : table, "that there might be a problem with the name `UNIX?' I mean, it : does sort of suggest being less than a man." : : "Maybe we should try another name, " suggested the Job Sparrow, like Brut, : or Rambo." : : "Penix," suggested a Penguin. I've considered bringing "Alice" up to date but it would only amount to a global search & replace. Nearly a decade later, and the song remains the same. Anyway, if we're trying to position FreeBSD as a server OS, how about "Servix"? No need to even bother with a trademark search on that one... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 11:19:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01892 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01804 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:18:50 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (da-soocha-72.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.81.200]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id NAA16083; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:17:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01851; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:17:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804141817.NAA01851@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Open Source Products To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: esr@thyrsus.com In-Reply-To: <353395B3.BF79F6FB@xylan.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, Wes Peters wrote: > Wes Peters : >> > At some time, once Linux starts getting really entrenched in a couple >> > of highly visible businesses, somebody's going to hit a snag running >> > a TurboLinux application on a RedHat server or some such silly bunch >> > of rot, and they're going to tell some hare-brained "journalist" >> > about it, and the PC rags are going to have a heyday. "See, we told >> > you this Linux stuff was for the birds, trust Microsoft. Their >> > products are perfect, and their dedicated support staff will take care >> > of you." > > Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> It would be *very* unwise to hope for this. For one thing, if your >> story about BSD being preferable for highly-stressed, high-throughput >> network servers is true, it's about as likely you'll get bit as a >> Linux box will. And, in any case, if you think the pinheads who >> inhabit the trade press wouldn't rush to interpret a conspicuous Linux >> failure as a slam on *all* open-source/Unix OSs, you're dreaming. > > I don't hope for this, I live in fear of it. I see FreeBSD as a > somewhat higher-end product related to Linux, at least in market > terms. If anything disastrous happens to Linux in the commercial > world, the chances of FreeBSD ever making significant penetration > there are zero. What I was trying to point out is that in some > significant ways, Linux is even *more* fractured than the separate > *BSD offerings. Of course, if Red Hat continues their momentum, > this may not be a problem by next year. ;^) I would disagree with your last point. Caldera has a pot full of money behind them, and they are after the corporate market big time. Brian Sparks wrote an open letter to SCO that caldera is out to cut into their client base. SuSE Linux, the dominant player in Germany, has money and big plans to be a factor in the US market. They are very attentive to their users needs. They also broke RedHats monopoly on Applix in the US. RedHat tends to put out a lot of bleeding edge stuff and then go into errata mode to fix it. Not sure that corporate folks like the experimentation. Frank > -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 11:52:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13086 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12965 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:52:04 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 2PDPYH4C; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:52:55 -0700 Message-ID: <011801bd67d5$a67d81e0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: , Cc: , "Greg Lehey" Subject: Re: Open Source Products Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:46:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interesting idea... Not that a "FreeBSD for Dummies" book would not have any more information than Greg's book, but it *would* be in a more familiar format for the masses. I think that might really be a valid pursuit! David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com -----Original Message----- From: Don Wilde To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 12:19 AM Subject: Re: Open Source Products >Josef Grosch wrote: > >> Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I guess I >> was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my Probability and >> Statistics class in college. ;-) > >mmm, maybe that's the answer: spin out of control and hope enough people >write 'dummies' books to try to profit from your huge user base, >creating a huge hungry base of people who have to justify their $30 >books... GNU's Not UNIX... FreeBSD's Not Linux.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >disconnect timeout. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 12:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25897 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25865 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:38:37 GMT (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA03109; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA22084; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:38:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Steven Plite cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <199804141808.NAA12767@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > Anyway, if we're trying to position FreeBSD as a server OS, how about > "Servix"? No need to even bother with a trademark search on that one... This is freebsd-humor. I get better jokes here than anywhere else. They are insider unix jokes... Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 14:45:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21639 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21503 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:45:19 GMT (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09676; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:45:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980414174503.48564@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:45:03 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Dan Janowski Cc: Steven Plite , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199804141808.NAA12767@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from Dan Janowski on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:38:30PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:38:30PM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > > > Anyway, if we're trying to position FreeBSD as a server OS, how about > > "Servix"? No need to even bother with a trademark search on that one... > > This is freebsd-humor. I get better jokes > here than anywhere else. They are insider unix jokes... Heheh.... Can we get Penix to go with it? Unfortunately, when you combine them, the system gets clogged with child processes...I wonder why. :) Sorry, I couldn't resist. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 15:18:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00567 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:17:56 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00557; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:47:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id HAA05698; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:47:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980415074752.D1870@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:47:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Success! (was: Installing and Running FreeBSD) References: <199804141736.MAA01645@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199804141736.MAA01645@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 12:36:56PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 12:36:56 -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On 14 Apr, Marco Molteni wrote: >> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> ----- Forwarded message from Andy Oram ----- >>> >> >> [...] >> >>>> I think you campaign of many years has paid off. Thanks to testimonials >>>> about FreeBSD from you and people working for us (as well as plenty of >>>> people on the Net) Tim and Frank now want to print an updated version of >>>> your book. >> >> [...] >> >> GO GREG GO!!!! :-) > > Congrats Greg -- you've made the show Thanks, guys. It wasn't me, it was you. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 15:51:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08056 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08001; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:50:42 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm01-21.aei.ca [206.123.6.121]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15672; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3533E825.A7088092@aei.ca> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:50:13 -0400 From: KapuT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: Sue Blake , Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. References: <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <29092.892387190@time.cdrom.com> <199804130217.VAA02346@darkstar.connect.com> <3.0.1.32.19980413204217.006a39f8@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joey Garcia wrote: > Hey all!! > > You know, I've been saying this all along....FreeBSD needs promotion. I > was at the bookstore today in the Unix section....not one FreeBSD (or BSD > for that matter) book did I see. None. Zilch. Nada. Although, there were > more Linux books than I have fingers and toes (10 fingers, 10 toes =P ). > There were also books on SCO Unix and Solaris. Well after getting tired of > looking at books, I went over to the magazine rack and BAM .... there it > was ... a Linux magazine. (Linux Journal) Linux, Linux everywhere. > > We all know that Linux has a big following....hell even I use it, just > because I heard about Linux before I heard about FreeBSD ... or BSD for > that matter. I learned about Unix and Linux when I kept getting nuked off > IRC. Anyways, I've been using Linux for a little while now ... but I have > read enough about BSD and FreeBSD to know that it's worth a try. "If Yahoo > can swear by it....then it must be good", I thought. > > Anyways, I'm still getting more information about FreeBSD (and the other > BSD's) before I migrate, but things would have helped if there were more > promotion of FreeBSD...as in books, magazines (online or in print), etc. > > So basically...I'm willing to put forth some effort to promote FreeBSD (to > help myself and others learn more about it) as in user groups or something > within my area. I live in Los Angeles...and that's a big area. :) I'm > willing to think about this and try to figure out ways in order to show the > world that FreeBSD exists and stuff. > > The point of all this is that I'm up for the task of FreeBSD promotion. > > Joey Bear Garcia Hum, freebsd-promotion@freebsd.org ? I think its a good idea :-) FreeBSD will loose a lot of market if they dont do the right promotion... like doing the FreeBSD-Newspaper hehehe Like I was saying: someone somewhere who is a real FreeBSD-hackers have time to do the FUG?(Freebsd User Group) This mailing list will go no-where ;-) Its like freebsd-chat but with new user who try to do deseperate thing! Hehehehe Malartre I need help for my *try* to do a FreeBSD ~ Doc for Newbies www.aei.ca/~malartre/ The look is finish but now we need text !!! -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 16:18:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13132 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:18:44 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA28654; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:19:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma028652; Tue, 14 Apr 98 16:19:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3533EE8B.5B52C801@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:17:31 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rse@engelschall.com Subject: trickle is flooding Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Web Techniques, p 45 - 52 of May 98 is a great discussion on taking Apache on FreeBSD _even_further_ into the stratosphere as a webserver platform. The only problem, Ralf, is that they didn't give a freebsd.org URL, although I suspect 75%+ of WT's readers are well aware of FreeBSD. Their website appears to be 2 months back from the print, as what's on the Web is March 98. I got some good insight into the "how'd they do that" of a Yahoo-sized site, although our site is a little less trafficked (so far). Very insightful and well explained! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 16:33:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16283 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:33:16 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08473; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:33:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804142333.RAA08473@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:31:32 -0600 To: Sean Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Geez -- Linux, Linux everywhere... In-Reply-To: References: <0a1d01bd6734$63d6e530$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:46 PM 4/13/98 -0700, Sean Harding wrote: >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, David Shanes wrote: > >> I just got a course catalog from "Learning Tree International" >> (http://www.learningtree.com) and they now teach an "Introduction to Linux" >> class. > >I'm convinced that Linux is the Windows95 of the Unix-like OS world. For >the masses, but not all that great. I'll admit that I have a Linux >machine, but it's the only Unixish OS that will run on that specific >machine (a Powermac)... It's our fault. FreeBSD needs to be promoted better. I see that an effort is starting; hope it's in time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 18:17:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06861 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from r.scl.ameslab.gov (r.scl.ameslab.gov [147.155.137.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06840; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:17:07 GMT (envelope-from ghelmer@scl.ameslab.gov) Received: from demios.scl.ameslab.gov (demios.ether.scl.ameslab.gov [147.155.137.54]) by r.scl.ameslab.gov (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA01848; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:17:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:17:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Security Features of FreeBSD article Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Apologies for the cross-post -- it seems relevant to chat as well, given the freebsd advocacy discussions of late.) I recently mentioned in freebsd-security that an article I wrote, Security Tools in FreeBSD, has been published in the May issue of SysAdmin. I've just checked their web site, and they have made it their feature article for May (meaning it is on-line!). Here is the URL, which will likely only be valid for a month or so: http://www.samag.com/current/feature.html Here's hoping that we can raise the visibility of FreeBSD! Appropriate thanks directed, as always, to the core team, other developers, and everyone who helped with this article. Thanks to SysAdmin as well for publishing the article and making it available on the web. Guy Helmer, Graduate Student, Iowa State University Dept. of Computer Science Research Assistant, Ames Laboratory --- ghelmer@scl.ameslab.gov http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 18:23:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08658 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enterprise.tht.net (root@tht.net [209.47.145.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA08397 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:22:34 GMT (envelope-from beef@tht.net) Received: from localhost by enterprise.tht.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:21:34 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Mar-7) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:21:34 -0400 (EDT) From: York Hill Foods To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: <353398C0.5BAE7C3B@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: > David Greenman wrote: > > > > ...it would still violate the trademark. A product name like > > FreeBSD/Pro is definately not a problem, and is even (extremely) > > likely, in fact. :-) > > I was just about to suggest that before I read your message :) If you people do make a different version, would you mind making it partially set up for us less_than_unix wizards. Thanks, Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 18:48:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (das@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12688 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:47:23 GMT (envelope-from das@netcom.com) Received: (from das@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id SAA07305; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:46:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Das Devaraj Reply-To: Das Devaraj Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) To: Dan Janowski cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3532D844.E173B93C@3skel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > - Specify whom this system is for > > (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) > > This is not really true. It seems that way because there is ashortage of > desktop type applications. When I installed Apache on FreeBSD 2.2.5 *think* it brought up six copies. Surely, a set-up for a server? :-) Granted these things are easy enough to correct (fix?), if one reads the accompanying documentation. The standard installation(?) also installed other server type stuff (like sendmail). Sorry don't have the machine close by, otherwise would have given the exact list. Also FreeBSD seems to be infinitely customizable (which is a good thing). Normally this extreme flexibility is given for server type systems. > We are not going to hit the MS desktop. The completeness and > ease of use for most is there. My plan was not to go against the MS desktop. Also I am not implying that the completeness and ease are lacking. Only that it is well hidden, unless you have a certain amount of computer knowledge or proficiency. A buddy of mine wanted a high end OS (don't know why) and I recommended FreeBSD. After two months and going through three books, he still did not have a high end OS :-( So he went the NT route. Now he is planning to buy a used true UNIX box. RTFM is the mantra which is chanted quite often as an cure for this. But IMHO, somebody coming in cold will have a very steep learning curve, even to have a basic working system. A very interesting point to consider is that the person mentioned in the previous paragraph, who valiantly struggled for two months, has a doctorate degree - not in CS :-) > If not a server or a common desktop, then what? I deal with a lot with newbies (in fact I am in the middle of starting a Unix training center, in Pleasant Hill, CA). Just in the last couple of months, the contractor who worked in my office suite, fast food restaurant manager, real estate person, medical doctor and other folks have expressed an interest in learning Unix! RTFM is not going to cut with folks like these. FreeBSD is currently geared for an extremely technical audience. That is why I followed the -newbies list with interest to see how that would go. They allow only meta-level discussions (like how to solve a problem and not the actual solution). Know why they do it ["teach a person to fish..." - not a vegan thing to do :-) ]. My take is, if somebody is bleeding from a cut, administer the first aid -- not stick a first aid book in the victim's hand and say RTFM. FreeBSD well may be targeted at an educated, technically elite audience. Everything that I see points towards that. My point is very simple - it may be very difficult or even impossible for the current FreeBSD structure to cater to anybody else. That is why I suggested that a different organization to try to market FreeBSD (under a different name) to businesses, real newbies etc. for a price. Not that I did not say anything hacking the kernel or other tech wizardry - just repacking. > UI for a more graphical desktop/system manager. People getfreaked out > when they have to deal with the system itself. > Everything from permissions to installing software. Who can > we really appeal to in a mass market? You are right about people getting freaked out. At each step of the installation process, the question is "now what?" After everything is done, it is "What do I click?" My guess is that some of the same newbies would not have a problem with RedHat Linux - I am planning to do some tests. Getting a successful installation itself will be an achievement for many. One quick anecdote - a buddy of mine, an NT admin, wanted to desperately setup a Unix server at his work -- resume reads better, he gets more money, now that he knows Unix etc). My recommendation was to go with FreeBSD. Since the whole show was happening at his office, could not really help him more than that. In more than a month, he could not get his system up and running. Too many things to read. To answer your question about the market, these are the markets the "repackaged/renamed" FreeBSD will try to cover. If it is possible to get branded also, it would be even better. > Are we tring to put ourselves more squarely > in the Unix Server market or are we going after > the home user that plays with Linux now, but > may be interested in something more serious. > Or something else? I don't view Linux as our enemy. Just brotherly rivalry, that is all. The recreational user and corporate market, as was mentioned before was what I had in mind. das To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 19:09:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19141 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19114; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:09:15 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18307; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:09:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:09:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: asbestos suited static vi Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ bcc'd to -hackers to reap some opinions, discussion to -chat] OK, there are many people against having a static linked vi by default. I agree with many of the reasons given that it would be a Bad Thing (tm) in the default. That said, it DOES offer additional capabilities and flexibility; I can't imagine anyone that would argue that. These come at a sacrifice which many are not willing to make. What would be the interest in a package'd static linked vi and supplementary fi les, and/or a source patch, so you can choose to have a static vi in /bin if you choose? Several people have expresses at least academic interest in it. So I think I may give it a stab. What advice can anyone offer, caevets, wish list, etc in this? Maybe eventually a set of packages of static binaries (shells, editors, etc) that someone might want to plop into their oversized / partition... but let's not get ahead of ourselves. IS there any interest, or any thoughts? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 19:13:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19829 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:13:27 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA06703; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:43:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980415114325.T1870@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:43:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: More FreeBSD users Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some of you may have noticed that I've been having reverse DNS lookup problems on my Telstra interface address (139.130.136.133). I've been following this up with Telstra, and just spoke with Richard Chew, the DNS-master. It seems that one of the main Australian name servers, munnari.oz.au, is just plain overloaded, and Richard says that they will probably take Telstra's stuff off it. Here's HINFO for munnari: munnari.oz.au CPU = Alpha4/166 OS = UNIX I suggested that they might like to try FreeBSD for their new name server. Richard said, "Yes, that's what we're using on our other name servers, along with BIND 8.1.2". No HINFO for Telstra's name servers, of course, but it's nice to know that we're recognized. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 19:16:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20508 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20414 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:15:47 GMT (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10278; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:15:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rse@engelschall.com Subject: Re: trickle is flooding In-Reply-To: <3533EE8B.5B52C801@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Could you please post the URL Thanks Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Web Techniques, p 45 - 52 of May 98 is a great discussion on taking Apache on > FreeBSD _even_further_ into the stratosphere as a webserver platform. The only > problem, Ralf, is that they didn't give a freebsd.org URL, although I suspect > 75%+ of WT's readers are well aware of FreeBSD. > > Their website appears to be 2 months back from the print, as what's on the Web > is March 98. > > I got some good insight into the "how'd they do that" of a Yahoo-sized site, > although our site is a little less trafficked (so far). Very insightful and well > explained! > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >  > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 19:20:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21695 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cockatoo.aus.org (hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org [199.166.246.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21672 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:20:19 GMT (envelope-from hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org) Received: from localhost (hendrix@localhost) by cockatoo.aus.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA06826 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:19:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:19:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Luke H." To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That said, it DOES offer additional capabilities and flexibility; I can't > imagine anyone that would argue that. These come at a sacrifice which > many are not willing to make. What would be the interest in a package'd > static linked vi and supplementary fi les, and/or a source patch, so you > can choose to have a static vi in /bin if you choose? Several people have > expresses at least academic interest in it. So I think I may give it a > stab. What advice can anyone offer, caevets, wish list, etc in this? Maybe > eventually a set of packages of static binaries (shells, editors, etc) > that someone might want to plop into their oversized / partition... but > let's not get ahead of ourselves. > > IS there any interest, or any thoughts? Maybe just have a port/package that installs a static vi to /bin? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 19:58:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27933 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27743 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:56:50 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA06915; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:26:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980415122623.Z1870@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:26:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Shanes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <011801bd67d5$a67d81e0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <011801bd67d5$a67d81e0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com>; from David Shanes on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 11:46:35AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 11:46:35 -0700, David Shanes wrote: >> Josef Grosch wrote: >> >>> Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I >>> guess I was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my >>> Probability and Statistics class in college. ;-) >> >> mmm, maybe that's the answer: spin out of control and hope enough people >> write 'dummies' books to try to profit from your huge user base, >> creating a huge hungry base of people who have to justify their $30 >> books... GNU's Not UNIX... FreeBSD's Not Linux.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >> disconnect timeout. > > Interesting idea... Not that a "FreeBSD for Dummies" book would not have > any more information than Greg's book, but it *would* be in a more familiar > format for the masses. > I think that might really be a valid pursuit! There's certainly place for another book on FreeBSD. And whoever gets a book published with IDG is going to be way past me (and ORA) in terms of volume. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:00:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28493 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28447 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:00:06 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA28854 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:00:05 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA05161 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Power of Positive Thinking Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I like FreeBSD. I like the FreeBSD community. I like the FreeBSD name. I like the FreeBSD license. I like FreeBSD support. I like the FreeBSD core for being very in touch with even the lowest form of user such as myself. It seems like there is a bit of "poor me" going around this list because Linux is so popular. I too must confess some Linux envy. Some opinions in particular sound like FreeBSD has already been relegated to "Heathkit" status. I am personally frustrated by reading opinions that state that FreeBSD is going down the shitter if we don't act now. I just want to stand and be counted as person who thinks FreeBSD is moving in the right direction. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:27:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03268 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enterprise.tht.net (root@tht.net [209.47.145.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA03263 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:26:54 GMT (envelope-from beef@tht.net) Received: from localhost by enterprise.tht.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:25:55 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Mar-7) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:25:55 -0400 (EDT) From: York Hill Foods To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Power of Positive Thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I like FreeBSD. I like the FreeBSD community. I like the FreeBSD name. I > like the FreeBSD license. I like FreeBSD support. I like the FreeBSD > core for being very in touch with even the lowest form of user such as > myself. > > It seems like there is a bit of "poor me" going around this list because > Linux is so popular. I too must confess some Linux envy. Some opinions > in particular sound like FreeBSD has already been relegated to > "Heathkit" status. > > I am personally frustrated by reading opinions that state that FreeBSD > is going down the shitter if we don't act now. > > I just want to stand and be counted as person who thinks FreeBSD is > moving in the right direction. If it ain't broke don't fix it. > > Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... > Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html Like all products available, it is marketing which gets peoples attention to a product. The thing that generally keeps a product going is the quality and service on which it stands. Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03915 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03807 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:31:53 GMT (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02158; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > [ bcc'd to -hackers to reap some opinions, discussion to -chat] > > OK, there are many people against having a static linked vi by default. I > agree with many of the reasons given that it would be a Bad Thing (tm) in > the default. > > That said, it DOES offer additional capabilities and flexibility; I can't > imagine anyone that would argue that. These come at a sacrifice which > many are not willing to make. What would be the interest in a package'd > static linked vi and supplementary fi les, and/or a source patch, so you > can choose to have a static vi in /bin if you choose? Several people have > expresses at least academic interest in it. So I think I may give it a > stab. What advice can anyone offer, caevets, wish list, etc in this? Maybe > eventually a set of packages of static binaries (shells, editors, etc) > that someone might want to plop into their oversized / partition... but > let's not get ahead of ourselves. You're completely missing a major point. Your argument is that there are some good reasons for some of us to want it. No argument. If you want it adopted, you'd have to argue that your reasons are strong enough to override the equally good reasons some *don't* want it. In other words, you want it, and you want to force everyone to have it, even though you can supply it yourself adequately. Many disagree with that part of it. > > IS there any interest, or any thoughts? > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | > * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * > | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| > * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * > | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:44:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06739 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:44:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06722 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:44:09 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22699; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:43:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:43:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Luke H." cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Luke H. wrote: > Maybe just have a port/package that installs a static vi to /bin? That was my plan. A binary packagee, with all the termcap db's etc that we need, and possibly a source patch so you could jsut make world par regular and you'll have a static vi in /bin. Possibly branching out into FreeBSD/static, with static tcsh, static bash, static party hats, static cling, etc. An insane flight of fantasy I know, but it's a direction that a lot of people will have a use for one piece or another of. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:55:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08169 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:55:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08161 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:55:15 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jupiter-36.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.66.229]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id DAA16905; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:55:12 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00508; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:55:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804150355.WAA00508@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:55:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: The Power of Positive Thinking To: beef@tht.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, York Hill Foods wrote: > > > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> I like FreeBSD. I like the FreeBSD community. I like the FreeBSD name. I >> like the FreeBSD license. I like FreeBSD support. I like the FreeBSD >> core for being very in touch with even the lowest form of user such as >> myself. >> >> It seems like there is a bit of "poor me" going around this list because >> Linux is so popular. I too must confess some Linux envy. Some opinions >> in particular sound like FreeBSD has already been relegated to >> "Heathkit" status. >> >> I am personally frustrated by reading opinions that state that FreeBSD >> is going down the shitter if we don't act now. >> >> I just want to stand and be counted as person who thinks FreeBSD is >> moving in the right direction. If it ain't broke don't fix it. >> >> Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... >> Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html > > > Like all products available, it is marketing which gets peoples > attention to a product. The thing that generally keeps a product going is > the quality and service on which it stands. > > Lanny > Whooo! this begs the question, how do you account for Windblows on all those desktops ;-) Frank > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:57:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08455 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlogic.com.au [203.36.2.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08449 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:57:36 GMT (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id NAA08383; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:56:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199804150356.NAA08383@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: More FreeBSD users In-Reply-To: <19980415114325.T1870@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 15, 98 11:43:25 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:56:48 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Some of you may have noticed that I've been having reverse DNS lookup > problems on my Telstra interface address (139.130.136.133). I've been > following this up with Telstra, and just spoke with Richard Chew, the > DNS-master. It seems that one of the main Australian name servers, > munnari.oz.au, is just plain overloaded, and Richard says that they > will probably take Telstra's stuff off it. Here's HINFO for munnari: > > munnari.oz.au CPU = Alpha4/166 OS = UNIX > > I suggested that they might like to try FreeBSD for their new name > server. Richard said, "Yes, that's what we're using on our other name > servers, along with BIND 8.1.2". > > No HINFO for Telstra's name servers, of course, but it's nice to know > that we're recognized. I spoke with Richard yesterday too. 8-) The problems I've been having are the result of being connected _before_ they added extra configuration options to their custdata web pages. They're not good at telling people they've got a new system with more things that need configuration. "It works now." 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 20:58:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08720 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08706 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:58:28 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23263; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:58:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:58:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Chuck Robey wrote: > You're completely missing a major point. Your argument is that there > are some good reasons for some of us to want it. No argument. If you > want it adopted, you'd have to argue that your reasons are strong enough > to override the equally good reasons some *don't* want it. > > In other words, you want it, and you want to force everyone to have it, > even though you can supply it yourself adequately. Many disagree with > that part of it. Having calmed down enough to actually read some of the emails sent both to the list and to me personally, I'm starting to agree that it might not be the best idea to have a static vi as a default. However, I still believe strongly that it's a desirable option in some cases, and I think it should be easier than digging through makefiles, moving a bunch of files around, etc; a package-type deal could well be perfect. And I've heard interest from other people in static binaries as well. Someone (Greg?) mentioned bash. And I'm sure there's others. I'm looking to establish a framework whereby these things that might well be Bad Things (tm) in the default can be integrated easily in cases where they would be wanted and counld be accomodated. Who knows? If we create such a package/patchkit and everyone starts using it, maybe it will prove to be a good thing to set as a default. Probably not, but this is the best way to test it; by not changing the default, but making it easier to try the option. It's interesting to see the range of opinions on this. Some people say 'Yes, vi should be in /bin', some people say 'Hm, that might not be a bad idea', some people say 'No, vi should be in /usr/bin', and every one of the camps has at least a few compelling reasons. I think that, at this point, even IF /bin/vi had the best arguments (not saying it does, or that it doesn't), /usr/bin/vi has the status quo; it IS in there for a reason, which was completely valid when it was done, and still has validity. I think that there's enough weight on the /usr/bin/vi side to keep it the way it is, but I also think there's enough weight on /bin/vi to start taking a look at it, and a package/port/patchkit is an excellent way to make it generally available without breaking the status quo. OK, I've written enough. Open season! > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD > (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:00:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09059 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA08957 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:59:52 GMT (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 16916 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1998 03:59:44 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1998 03:59:44 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-170.realtime.net [205.238.146.170]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA13544; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:59:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:06:37 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Das Devaraj cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Das, (Greetings!) I can sympathize with the discussion below and the experience of your friends. I had the advantage of some System V experience some (long) years ago. But, I had essentially forgotten all. I was attempting an install from a DOS partition. I think the problem for the newest user can be sumarised by saying that I had no common cognative framework. No shared cognates to borrow an old (very...;-)) term from my anthropologist past. RTFM for me, it was what I was telling myself to do, was of no use. Instructions that now seem _painfully_ obvious in intent,(What does "download all the dists" mean?) were understandable but useless. What helped was to read "Learning the UNIX Operating System", by Todino, Strang, and Peek, O'Reilly. It was simple, read in a couple of hours, and provided a needed frame of reference. After asking a few questions of the list to clarify things particular to the FreeBSD way of organizing things, I successfully installed a running system. I agree with what I think you are suggesting, but I do not think the technical obstacles are insurmountable. Give the newbie a few "common cognates" with which to build a frame of reference. Would it be worthwhile to see if O'Reilly would let us do a FreeBSD version of this book for inclusion with the CD? A kind of Newbie Option? Just an idea, Cheers. John On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > > - Specify whom this system is for > > > (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) > > > > This is not really true. It seems that way because there is ashortage of > > desktop type applications. > > When I installed Apache on FreeBSD 2.2.5 *think* it brought up > six copies. Surely, a set-up for a server? :-) Granted these > things are easy enough to correct (fix?), if one reads the > accompanying documentation. The standard installation(?) also > installed other server type stuff (like sendmail). Sorry don't > have the machine close by, otherwise would have given the exact > list. Also FreeBSD seems to be infinitely customizable (which > is a good thing). Normally this extreme flexibility is given > for server type systems. > > > > We are not going to hit the MS desktop. The completeness and > > ease of use for most is there. > > My plan was not to go against the MS desktop. Also I am > not implying that the completeness and ease are lacking. Only > that it is well hidden, unless you have a certain amount of > computer knowledge or proficiency. > > A buddy of mine wanted a high end OS (don't know why) and I > recommended FreeBSD. After two months and going through three > books, he still did not have a high end OS :-( So he went the > NT route. Now he is planning to buy a used true UNIX box. > > RTFM is the mantra which is chanted quite often as an cure for > this. But IMHO, somebody coming in cold will have a very steep > learning curve, even to have a basic working system. A very > interesting point to consider is that the person mentioned > in the previous paragraph, who valiantly struggled for two > months, has a doctorate degree - not in CS :-) > > > > If not a server or a common desktop, then what? > > I deal with a lot with newbies (in fact I am in the middle of > starting a Unix training center, in Pleasant Hill, CA). Just in > the last couple of months, the contractor who worked in my office > suite, fast food restaurant manager, real estate person, medical > doctor and other folks have expressed an interest in learning > Unix! RTFM is not going to cut with folks like these. > > FreeBSD is currently geared for an extremely technical audience. > That is why I followed the -newbies list with interest to see > how that would go. They allow only meta-level discussions (like > how to solve a problem and not the actual solution). Know why > they do it ["teach a person to fish..." - not a vegan thing to > do :-) ]. My take is, if somebody is bleeding from a cut, > administer the first aid -- not stick a first aid book in the > victim's hand and say RTFM. > > FreeBSD well may be targeted at an educated, technically elite > audience. Everything that I see points towards that. My point > is very simple - it may be very difficult or even impossible for > the current FreeBSD structure to cater to anybody else. That > is why I suggested that a different organization to try to market > FreeBSD (under a different name) to businesses, real newbies etc. > for a price. Not that I did not say anything hacking the kernel > or other tech wizardry - just repacking. > > > > UI for a more graphical desktop/system manager. People getfreaked out > > when they have to deal with the system itself. > > Everything from permissions to installing software. Who can > > we really appeal to in a mass market? > > You are right about people getting freaked out. At each step > of the installation process, the question is "now what?" After > everything is done, it is "What do I click?" My guess is that > some of the same newbies would not have a problem with RedHat > Linux - I am planning to do some tests. Getting a successful > installation itself will be an achievement for many. > > One quick anecdote - a buddy of mine, an NT admin, wanted to > desperately setup a Unix server at his work -- resume reads > better, he gets more money, now that he knows Unix etc). > My recommendation was to go with FreeBSD. Since the whole > show was happening at his office, could not really help him > more than that. In more than a month, he could not get his > system up and running. Too many things to read. > > To answer your question about the market, these are the > markets the "repackaged/renamed" FreeBSD will try to cover. > If it is possible to get branded also, it would be even > better. > > > > Are we tring to put ourselves more squarely > > in the Unix Server market or are we going after > > the home user that plays with Linux now, but > > may be interested in something more serious. > > Or something else? > > I don't view Linux as our enemy. Just brotherly rivalry, > that is all. The recreational user and corporate market, as > was mentioned before was what I had in mind. > > das > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:05:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09669 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09626 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:04:30 GMT (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (wumpus.its.uow.edu.au [130.130.68.12]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA12699; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:03:50 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:03:50 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Power of Positive Thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hear Hear! :) Nicholas Brawn -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I like FreeBSD. I like the FreeBSD community. I like the FreeBSD name. I > like the FreeBSD license. I like FreeBSD support. I like the FreeBSD > core for being very in touch with even the lowest form of user such as > myself. > > It seems like there is a bit of "poor me" going around this list because > Linux is so popular. I too must confess some Linux envy. Some opinions > in particular sound like FreeBSD has already been relegated to > "Heathkit" status. > > I am personally frustrated by reading opinions that state that FreeBSD > is going down the shitter if we don't act now. > > I just want to stand and be counted as person who thinks FreeBSD is > moving in the right direction. If it ain't broke don't fix it. > > Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... > Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:05:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09801 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09693 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:05:08 GMT (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA05338; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 3skel.com (localhost.3skel.com [127.0.0.1]) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA28289; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353431E4.125164C8@3skel.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0400 From: Dan Janowski Organization: Triskelion Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Das Devaraj CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Das Devaraj wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > > - Specify whom this system is for > > > (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) > > > > This is not really true. It seems that way because there is ashortage of > > desktop type applications. > > When I installed Apache on FreeBSD 2.2.5 *think* it brought up > six copies. Surely, a set-up for a server? :-) Granted these > things are easy enough to correct (fix?), if one reads the 6 httpd's are nothing. this is not NT. There is a lot that I am no longersensitive to about the install process, but I have found that the defaults are pretty sane. > ... > > We are not going to hit the MS desktop. The completeness and > > ease of use for most is there. > > My plan was not to go against the MS desktop. Also I am > not implying that the completeness and ease are lacking. Only > that it is well hidden, unless you have a certain amount of The issue here is that we have an OS that is an old growth forest: filled with every kind of tree but very few maps. If you find a tree, iyou can learn a lot about it and from it. The essential question is still unresolved, other than server and real Unix users, what is FreeBSD best for? I understand that people want to use it and that more people would if they could get over the techincal hump at the beginning. but why? This is not a why in the sense of why bother, but what is the motivation and benefit? I know why I use it. My business depends on FreeBSD in a very mission critical way. I can't buy a commecial system as stable, good performing or as incredibly flexible. But I am a Unix nut. I use XFig, troff, emacs, vi, sc, ghostscript, and I write enough code to make it work really well. Why does someone else want to use it? Do we tell people it is awsomely powerful for connecting to the Internet? Anyway, I am not pessimistic about what people can do with FreeBSD. It is a real question. Marketing has to be focused on a market, and I really don't know what the hell non-programmers or non-Unix heads do with this. I am really curious. Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:16:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11926 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11919 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:16:33 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07385; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:46:20 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980415134620.M1870@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:46:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More FreeBSD users References: <19980415114325.T1870@freebie.lemis.com> <199804150356.NAA08383@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199804150356.NAA08383@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 01:56:48PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 April 1998 at 13:56:48 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> Some of you may have noticed that I've been having reverse DNS lookup >> problems on my Telstra interface address (139.130.136.133). I've been >> following this up with Telstra, and just spoke with Richard Chew, the >> DNS-master. It seems that one of the main Australian name servers, >> munnari.oz.au, is just plain overloaded, and Richard says that they >> will probably take Telstra's stuff off it. Here's HINFO for munnari: >> >> munnari.oz.au CPU = Alpha4/166 OS = UNIX >> >> I suggested that they might like to try FreeBSD for their new name >> server. Richard said, "Yes, that's what we're using on our other name >> servers, along with BIND 8.1.2". >> >> No HINFO for Telstra's name servers, of course, but it's nice to know >> that we're recognized. > > I spoke with Richard yesterday too. 8-) The problems I've been having > are the result of being connected _before_ they added extra configuration > options to their custdata web pages. They're not good at telling people > they've got a new system with more things that need configuration. > "It works now." 8-) They're not good at telling people. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:29:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13562 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13549 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:29:18 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-if2-27.ida.net [208.141.171.84]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06333 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:22:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353437D5.2781E494@ida.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:30:13 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Das Devaraj wrote: > One quick anecdote - a buddy of mine, an NT admin, wanted to > desperately setup a Unix server at his work -- resume reads > better, he gets more money, now that he knows Unix etc). > My recommendation was to go with FreeBSD. Since the whole > show was happening at his office, could not really help him > more than that. In more than a month, he could not get his > system up and running. Too many things to read. > So, he wanted to put on his resume that he was a Unix sysadmin, but he didn't want to actually learn what it took to be one? How is it that you would suggest learning something? Osmosis? Reading has always worked well for me. A lot of powerful options in FreeBSD are enabled by changing a line in /etc/rc.conf from NO to YES. That's hard? Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:37:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15209 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:37:27 GMT (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02644; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:36:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > You're completely missing a major point. Your argument is that there > > are some good reasons for some of us to want it. No argument. If you > > want it adopted, you'd have to argue that your reasons are strong enough > > to override the equally good reasons some *don't* want it. > > > > In other words, you want it, and you want to force everyone to have it, > > even though you can supply it yourself adequately. Many disagree with > > that part of it. > > Having calmed down enough to actually read some of the emails sent both > to the list and to me personally, I'm starting to agree that it might not > be the best idea to have a static vi as a default. However, I still > believe strongly that it's a desirable option in some cases, and I think > it should be easier than digging through makefiles, moving a bunch of > files around, etc; a package-type deal could well be perfect. You realize how simple it is? There's nothing like you hint above, just one line: make NOSHARED=1 clean depend all install that's it, done and installed, in the correct directory. Oh, I didn't include that you have to do it from the vi source directory, and you have to actually have the sources. It's not some big song and dance. This, of course, changes what all books on BSD unix will tell you, and specifically contradicts those few texts that tell you something about how to handle emergencies, but if you read that much, you ought to be able to handle the difference. If you don't, heck, vi is probably the wrong editor anyhow, you'd want ee, which is simple enough for anyone. Last comment: if you really want a port, did you realize it's ALREADY there? Look at /usr/ports/editors/nvi. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:45:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA16481 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:45:41 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (jaresh-16.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.86.144]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id EAA25337; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:45:35 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00612; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:45:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804150445.XAA00612@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:45:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) To: muck@ida.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <353437D5.2781E494@ida.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr, Mike wrote: > Das Devaraj wrote: > >> One quick anecdote - a buddy of mine, an NT admin, wanted to >> desperately setup a Unix server at his work -- resume reads >> better, he gets more money, now that he knows Unix etc). >> My recommendation was to go with FreeBSD. Since the whole >> show was happening at his office, could not really help him >> more than that. In more than a month, he could not get his >> system up and running. Too many things to read. Unbelievable, a month and still not running. I could climb around NT O.K, but when I first installed FreeBSD I was totally clueless. I had it running in a day or so. Sure some stuff was pretty messed up, but like you I read as I went along and got it to work. I've meet a lot of folks that either will not read or just can't get it by reading. Guess it all depends upon what you want to do and how much you want to do it. Frank >> > > So, he wanted to put on his resume that he was a Unix sysadmin, but he > didn't want to actually learn what it took to be one? How is it that > you would suggest learning something? Osmosis? Reading has always > worked well for me. > > A lot of powerful options in FreeBSD are enabled by changing a line in > /etc/rc.conf from NO to YES. That's hard? > > Mike > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:56:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:56:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (root@stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA18428 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:56:20 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.3) id FAA28780; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:14:59 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19980415051459.58816@stade.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:14:59 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the place of vi Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <19980414191927.51679@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980414191927.51679@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 07:19:27PM +0200 Organization: Stade Computers Ltd, UK X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 07:19:27PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > I actually think we need a freebsd-kernel list, possibly a moderated > one. Preferably still open to all to subscribe. Apprentices can learn a lot from the wizards' discussions. Moderation would keep the apprentices in their (silent) place (8-). How about some form of automoderation (white list of approved posters) to take some of the load off the moderators? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 21:59:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19157 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA19100 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:59:40 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA15890; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:59:38 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA27475; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:58:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Nicholas Charles Brawn cc: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Power of Positive Thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > Hear Hear! :) > > Nicholas Brawn This makes me smile. :) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 22:24:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23147 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA22993 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:24:03 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA14158; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:24:02 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA10604; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:22:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Dan Janowski cc: Das Devaraj , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: <353431E4.125164C8@3skel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > Why does someone else want to use it? Do we tell people > it is awsomely powerful for connecting to the Internet? This is a question of applications that run on the platform. There is a good point here. Why does Joe User want to run FreeBSD? The website has a link on the front page to "applications". Then it takes the user to a blurb and then the ports collection. Hmmm ports.... What is a port? Then this large list of apps with cryptic names is given. Hmmm plan9.... What is plan9? What is a shell? What is fvwm2? Now, let me say this. The website as I have discussed it so far is completely sensible and sane _to me_, Joe User might not think so. Mr. Jankowski's comments are supported by the website. Look at that "blurb" about the apps FreeBSD runs. It is all very heavy nerd stuff. Perhaps a rewrite of this page to be less nerdy would be in order. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 23:39:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11892 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11773 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:39:21 GMT (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (cadezia-113.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.82.113]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id BAA25689 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:39:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00845 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:39:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804150639.BAA00845@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:39:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Project FreeBSD 98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, In an earlier post you stated that we have 25,000 registered users. Is it possible to get a figure for the number of shipments of our last release? If 25,000 is the tip of the iceberg, it maybe useful to to get some idea of how large the iceberg is. This certainly won't be accurate, but it would be interesting to see how our numbers stack up against the 600,000 copies that RedHat shipped of their latest release. I spent some time on the phone talking to Linux workstation vendors and they related that they have customers that run FreeBSD on their platforms, but don't feel the need to feature it as part of their packaged systems. Also, checked with some software wholesallers that sell Linux and found that they also carry FreeBSD. Yet FreeBSD is not found in university bookstores alongside Linux. So what is my problem in all this? As a person that has sold a few things in their time, something here doesn't square. FreeBSD is being sold and used, but where the hell is it going, into a black hole or somewhere that we don't get any visibility. It appears that FreeBSD is the free software world's best kept secret. Anyway, Infoworld has been publishing some things on free software in the recent past, yes RedHat, Caldera, and BSDI, though the later is not free, and I am going to try whining to the editor as to why the free soft world's best kept secret is conspicuouss by its absence. Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 14 23:43:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13411 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:43:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.174.4.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA13170 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:42:54 GMT (envelope-from rse@en1.engelschall.com) Received: (qmail 20557 invoked by uid 66); 15 Apr 1998 06:40:28 -0000 Received: by en1.engelschall.com (Sendmail 8.8.8) id IAA01341; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:42:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980415084221.B553@engelschall.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:42:21 +0200 From: "Ralf S. Engelschall" To: Don Wilde , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: trickle is flooding Reply-To: rse@engelschall.com References: <3533EE8B.5B52C801@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <3533EE8B.5B52C801@partsnow.com>; from Don Wilde on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 04:17:31PM -0700 Organization: Engelschall, Germany. X-Home: http://www.engelschall.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Web Techniques, p 45 - 52 of May 98 is a great discussion on taking Apache on > FreeBSD _even_further_ into the stratosphere as a webserver platform. The only > problem, Ralf, is that they didn't give a freebsd.org URL, although I suspect > 75%+ of WT's readers are well aware of FreeBSD. I hope they are all well aware of FreeBSD. But actually it seems that it was my fault that no www.freebsd.org URL was mentioned. I removed it from the URL resource box because my WT-editor wanted the FreeBSD stuff into his own box. And there I totally forgot to add the URL, again. Hmmm... but this should be no really big problem. FreeBSD is popular enough and www.freebsd.org caninical enough to find it. > Their website appears to be 2 months back from the print, as what's on the Web > is March 98. Yes, that's ugly. There webmasters seem to be lazy ones. > I got some good insight into the "how'd they do that" of a Yahoo-sized site, > although our site is a little less trafficked (so far). Very insightful and well > explained! Thanks. And it is the first time someone shows how a reverse proxy can be created with Apache ;-) BTW: For those are interested: The article was written in February where only Apache 1.3b5 existed. So I had to show an ugly way of creating the apache-rproxy binary. Now with 1.3b6 (released the next days) we make it even more interesting: Apache 1.3b6 contains full support (especially under FreeBSD ;_) to place _all_ Apache modules into dynamic shared objects mod_xxx.so. This way the apache-rproxy no longer has to be created under build-time. It then can be created by just installing Apache via (yes, Apache 1.3b6 has a "configure" script): $ ./configure --prefix=/path/to/apache-rproxy/ \ --enable-module=rewrite \ --enable-module=proxy \ --enable-shared=max and the "httpd" binary contains no modules beside http_core and mod_so. The apache-rproxy.conf then assembles its functionality under run-time via LoadModule rewrite_module libexec/mod_rewrite.so LoadModule proxy_module libexec/mod_proxy.so In other words: When you install Apache with the DSO mechanism you can create an apache-rproxy with your existing installation! Greetings, Ralf S. Engelschall rse@engelschall.com www.engelschall.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 02:29:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11340 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from janus.bowneglobal.nl (janus.bowneglobal.nl [195.109.216.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11303; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:29:02 GMT (envelope-from Bart.Smit@bowneglobal.nl) Received: from thalia.bowneglobal.nl ([192.168.32.55]) by janus.bowneglobal.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29977; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:28:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Bart.Smit@bowneglobal.nl) Received: by thalia.bowneglobal.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BD6861.8877A220@thalia.bowneglobal.nl>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:27:54 +0200 Message-ID: <01BD6861.8877A220@thalia.bowneglobal.nl> From: Bart Smit To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Cc: "'jkh@freebsd.org'" Subject: FW: lotus linux list Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:27:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA11329 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, (forgive me the non-wrapping lines and the rotten format. I know...) Recently I had asked Lotus about Domino SCO Unix or anything that would stand a chance of running on my FreeBSD server. After a while, I got a reaction from them, stating that there are no any plans for Linux support (sic) any time soon. That message had an interesting recipient list. Obviously they have had many more questions. One of the recipients very recently started a mailing list on this issue (its name says it's about Linux, but my current impression is that it is rather general). See announcement mail below. You may be interested. regards, --Bart -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Mark Spencer [SMTP:markster@marko.net] Verzonden: donderdag 9 april 1998 19:04 Aan: Chad Barbry CC: wsl3@home.com; britter@mis.de; Ashley Drees; rayman@dimensional.com; nenad@public.srce.hr; niemann@cip.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de; marcel@iconnect.nl; bart.smit@bowneglobal.nl; cyberedge@aol.com; penty.wenngren@maldata.se; Richard.Lapointe@micst.gouv.qc.ca; mphillip@potter.ieee.uh.edu; clarkrd@ibm.net; michael_mccafferty@idg.com; debros@etherdome.mgh.harvard.edu; tom.soderlund@research.nokia.com; jochen_herrmann@trace.ch; al276005@academ01.lag.itesm.mx; frank.ratzlow@neubrandenburg.netsurf.de; ash@mail.oxfam.org.uk Onderwerp: lotus linux list In my previous annoucement, I forgot some information (like how to send mail to the list!) So, from the top... To mail the list, send your message to: lotus-linux@marko.net again, to subscribe, you send the word "subscribe" in the body of a message to: lotus-linux-request@marko.net and to unsubscribe, you send the word "unsubscribe" in the body of a message to the same address Finally, I will maintain archives of the list at http://www.marko.net/archives/lotus Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 02:38:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12443 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:38:34 GMT (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12639; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804150937.CAA12639@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:33:22 +0400." <19980413213322.42076@demos.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:37:55 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The name FreeBSD means that is hard for "Corporate America" to accept. In a capitalistic society free is consider evil. I can see a college enthusiast with no business sense coining the term FreeBSD. Amancio > On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 11:25:47AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > # At 09:15 PM 4/13/98 +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > # >But won't calling products with names, which include *BSD* lead to people > # >will flounder (?) two products, the one from FreeBSD Inc., and another, > # >from BSDi? I mean names like 'BSD Gold', 'BSD Housewife-2000 Eleet'? > # > # Not if the names indicate the purpose and positioning of the product. > # If this is done, it actually makes it easier for end users to sort > # things out. > > What's wrong with the 'FreeBSD for Little'/'FreeBSD for Housewives' than? > Why BSD? The name "FreeBSD" indicates one of the main of [political] > differencies from other BSD derived OS's, afaiu. And it was known (not very > good, as we can see now) for years. Hence, we could just release different > versions with "FreeBSD" string in it's names, right? > > # --Brett Glass > > -- > -mishania > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 03:48:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24150 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24145 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:48:27 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10019; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:48:22 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA24743; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:48:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980415124815.51030@follo.net> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:48:15 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Chuck Robey , "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 11:36:24PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 11:36:24PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > Having calmed down enough to actually read some of the emails sent both > > to the list and to me personally, I'm starting to agree that it might not > > be the best idea to have a static vi as a default. However, I still > > believe strongly that it's a desirable option in some cases, and I think > > it should be easier than digging through makefiles, moving a bunch of > > files around, etc; a package-type deal could well be perfect. > > You realize how simple it is? There's nothing like you hint above, just > one line: > > make NOSHARED=1 clean depend all install > > that's it, done and installed, in the correct directory. Oh, I didn't Small change: make BINDIR=/bin NOSHARED=1 clean depend all install He wanted it in /bin so he didn't have to mount /usr. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 04:08:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29021 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cockatoo.aus.org (hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org [199.166.246.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29000 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:08:30 GMT (envelope-from hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org) Received: from localhost (hendrix@localhost) by cockatoo.aus.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA08777 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:08:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from hendrix@cockatoo.aus.org) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:08:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Luke H." To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Maybe just have a port/package that installs a static vi to /bin? > That was my plan. > A binary packagee, with all the termcap db's etc that we need, and > possibly a source patch so you could jsut make world par regular and > you'll have a static vi in /bin. > Possibly branching out into FreeBSD/static, with static tcsh, static bash, > static party hats, static cling, etc. > An insane flight of fantasy I know, but it's a direction that a lot of > people will have a use for one piece or another of. hey arent static binaries faster, just bigger? there should be an option for make.conf to build the whole of usr/src static :). that aside I think it would be fairly easy to make a vi package that installs to /bin, maybe make a note in a readme in the sysinstall help about it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 04:57:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07315 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sun-test.hightek.com (sun-test.hightek.com [194.74.141.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07302 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:57:30 GMT (envelope-from andreas@klemm2.hightek.com) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by sun-test.hightek.com (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA24044; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:58:53 +0200 Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16594; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:57:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980415135726.29233@hightek.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:57:26 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Luke H." Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 10:43:27PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 10:43:27PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Luke H. wrote: > > > Maybe just have a port/package that installs a static vi to /bin? > That was my plan. > A binary packagee, with all the termcap db's etc that we need, and > possibly a source patch so you could jsut make world par regular and > you'll have a static vi in /bin. I'm against misusing the ports collection for "patching" the base os ! Ports live under $(PREFIX), usually /usr/local. Please don't take that into consideration. Ports != Base OS. No exception, ok ?! Another point, if you really need a static vi, why don't you compile a special version yourself and put it into /sbin or /usr/sbin ? Then you don't have to convince the others to built it in as default ! Andreas /// -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 05:14:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10717 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA10651 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:14:18 GMT (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 43748 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1998 12:14:14 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1998 12:14:14 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-206.realtime.net [204.96.0.206]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10698; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:14:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Greg Lehey cc: David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-Reply-To: <19980415122623.Z1870@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is such a book, IMHO. In a recent post to this list, I mentioned a little book published by O'Reilly, "Learning the UNIX Operating System." Before I had even begun to download FreeBSD, I went to the bookstore and asked about a "Dummies" book on unix. (Name recognition) The clerk alluded to his opinion on the stupididty and expense of those books and showed me this little 89 page wonder. He said it had more to offer than the two volumes of "dummies" books. It did, without burying the reader in stuff they are not ready to understand. It even covers X. John On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 14 April 1998 at 11:46:35 -0700, David Shanes wrote: > >> Josef Grosch wrote: > >> > >>> Now, that is an interesting way to estimate ones installed base. I > >>> guess I was sleeping when this technique was discussed in my > >>> Probability and Statistics class in college. ;-) > >> > >> mmm, maybe that's the answer: spin out of control and hope enough people > >> write 'dummies' books to try to profit from your huge user base, > >> creating a huge hungry base of people who have to justify their $30 > >> books... GNU's Not UNIX... FreeBSD's Not Linux.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > >> disconnect timeout. > > > > Interesting idea... Not that a "FreeBSD for Dummies" book would not have > > any more information than Greg's book, but it *would* be in a more familiar > > format for the masses. > > I think that might really be a valid pursuit! > > There's certainly place for another book on FreeBSD. And whoever gets > a book published with IDG is going to be way past me (and ORA) in > terms of volume. > > Greg > > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 06:15:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orion.unisc.br ([200.17.83.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20808; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:15:15 GMT (envelope-from trainini@unisc.br) Received: from gauss.unisc.br by orion.unisc.br (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/04Mar97-0201PM) id AA13519; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:15:51 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980415101437.00710104@orion.unisc.br> X-Sender: trainini@orion.unisc.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:14:37 -0300 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG From: Paulo Ricardo Trainini Subject: table is full (ajude-me por favor) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA20822 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seguido uma das máquinas da nossa rede reboota sozinha. Ela tem duas interfaces da rede. O arquivo /var/log/dmesg.today está com várias linhas de conteúdo "file: table is full". O arquivo de configuração do kernel está com "maxusers=10". Não sei se isto está relacionado. Qualquer ajuda é bem vinda. Grato pela atenção. Paulo ----- Paulo Ricardo Trainini e-mail: trainini@unisc.br fone: +55 051 717-7424 Administrador de Rede fax: +55 051 717-1855 UNISC - Universidade de Santa Cruz do Sul Setor de Informática To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 06:22:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22118 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:22:30 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id JAA14958 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:22:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Digital Video Magazine blurb about FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I bumped into this article while goofing. They didn't go real in depth bu they did mention FreeBSD and offered its URL. http://www.dv.com/magazine/0498/0498johnson.html Never would of thought of seeing it mentioned in digital video magazine :) Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 06:53:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29484 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29474 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:53:06 GMT (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA17707; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:52:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199804151352.JAA17707@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: New name? To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980414174503.48564@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> from "Lee Cremeans" at Apr 14, 98 05:45:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:38:30PM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > > > > > Anyway, if we're trying to position FreeBSD as a server OS, how about > > > "Servix"? No need to even bother with a trademark search on that one... > > > > This is freebsd-humor. I get better jokes > > here than anywhere else. They are insider unix jokes... > > Heheh.... Can we get Penix to go with it? > > Unfortunately, when you combine them, the system gets clogged with child > processes...I wonder why. :) > > Sorry, I couldn't resist. > -- > Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) I seem to remember, from my Concurrent days, that PENIX was considered as a possible name for Perkin-Elmer Unix -- but they went with Xelos. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 07:05:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02969 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02862; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:05:07 GMT (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA06643; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id KAA04007; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:05:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski Message-Id: <199804151405.KAA04007@fnur.3skel.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Side by side... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whilest poking around for Java resources, I found this article which seems pretty articulate as well as referring to Linux and FreeBSD on par. http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html?jw Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 08:40:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21852; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:40:49 GMT (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26889; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" Reply-To: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Paulo Ricardo Trainini cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: table is full (ajude-me por favor) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980415101437.00710104@orion.unisc.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [translation from babelfish] On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Paulo Ricardo Trainini wrote: > Seguido uma das máquinas da nossa rede reboota sozinha. Ela tem duas > interfaces da rede. O arquivo /var/log/dmesg.today está com várias linhas > de conteúdo "file: table is full". > > O arquivo de configuração do kernel está com "maxusers=10". Não sei se > isto está relacionado. > > Qualquer ajuda é bem vinda. Grato pela atenção. Translation: > "One of the machines on our network reboots. It has two interfaces to > the network. The archive /var/log/dmesg.today has the following string > 'file table is full'. > > The kernel config file has 'maxusers=10'. I do not know if this is > related. > > Any help would be appriciated. Thanks for the attention." A server should have a larger value for 'maxusers'. You should set it to 64 at the very least. "Um server deve ter um valor maior para 'maxusers'. Voce^ deve ajusta'-lo a 64 no muito o mais menos." http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 08:41:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22171; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:41:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA26957; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:41:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:41:47 -0500 From: dannyman To: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Side by side... Mail-Followup-To: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199804151405.KAA04007@fnur.3skel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804151405.KAA04007@fnur.3skel.com>; from Dan Janowski on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:05:03AM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:05:03AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > Whilest poking around for Java resources, I found this article which > seems pretty articulate as well as referring to Linux and FreeBSD on par. > > http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html?jw Errr, yeah, an article full of generalizations unsupported by citation that mentions FreeBSD and Linux in the same sentence then goes on to list a bunch of links for Linux at the bottom. I get the creepy feeling that it's some sort of underhanded Linux advocacy, but I don't mind so much given the target. ;) -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 09:59:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09639 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09574 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:58:36 GMT (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17050; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dannyman cc: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Side by side... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:41:47 CDT." <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:58:44 -0700 Message-ID: <17047.892659524@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Agh, don't cross-post. I saw FreeBSD citations as well as Linux ones at the bottom, didn't you? Jordan > On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:05:03AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > Whilest poking around for Java resources, I found this article which > > seems pretty articulate as well as referring to Linux and FreeBSD on par. > > > > http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html?jw > > Errr, yeah, an article full of generalizations unsupported by citation that > mentions FreeBSD and Linux in the same sentence then goes on to list a > bunch of links for Linux at the bottom. > > I get the creepy feeling that it's some sort of underhanded Linux advocacy, > but I don't mind so much given the target. ;) > > -dan > > -- > // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves > \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12145 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12025 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:07:04 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-250.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.250]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA63276; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:06:57 GMT Message-ID: <3534E918.6E1DFF64@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:06:32 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Griffith CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rse@engelschall.com Subject: Re: trickle is flooding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.webtechniques.com, but like I said, it's in the _print_ version, not yet on the Web. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:12:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13671 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13472 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:11:52 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA28672; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:10:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980415121058.58364@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:10:58 -0500 From: dannyman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ncweditors@ncworldmag.com Subject: Article: `The new Unix alters NT's orbit' Mail-Followup-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ncweditors@ncworldmag.com References: <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu> <17047.892659524@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <17047.892659524@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 09:58:44AM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 09:58:44AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Agh, don't cross-post. sorry, noticed that right after i ^X :( > I saw FreeBSD citations as well as Linux ones at the bottom, > didn't you? ahhh, yeah, that article _is_ poorly written. why were the citations not hyperlinked to the body of the article? it seemed queer that they didn't even link their own article ... let's look at how i read it though ... notice ``List of commercial applications and hardware for Linux'' where all the citations are dumped? Even WinNT stuff is listed under `Linux' - this caused me to just skip the whole list! Resources List of commercial applications and hardware for Linux * UNC's Sunsite repository http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/products.html * Linux Applications and Utilities Pages + http://www.double-barrel.be/linux_apps/textonly.html + http://www.xnet.com/~blatura/linapps.shtml + http://www.linuxmall.com/ * Samba Web page (Native Windows networking on Unix) http://samba.anu.edu.au/samba/ * Walnut Creek CDROM offerings of FreeBSD and Linux http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/os.htm * RedHat Linux 5.0 http://www.redhat.com/ * Caldera OpenLinux 1.2 http://www.caldera.com/ * Debian Linux http://www.debian.org/ * Linux plus Linux-related management and applications http://www.infomagic.com/ * FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org * Sun Solaris http://www.sun.com/solaris/index.html * Microsoft Windows NT Server http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/default.asp * Microsoft Windows NT Workstation http://www.microsoft.com/ntworkstation/ * "The Next 10 Minutes: Searching for the next Windows NT," March 1998 http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-03-1998/ncw-03-nextten.h tml -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:18:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15379 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15077 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:17:41 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07364; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:17:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804151717.LAA07364@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:17:12 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dannyman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Side by side... Cc: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <17047.892659524@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:58 AM 4/15/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Agh, don't cross-post. > >I saw FreeBSD citations as well as Linux ones at the bottom, >didn't you? > > Jordan Yes, but the entire list was mislabeled as having to do only with Linux. Also, Nick omitted the other *BSDs, which are important options for non-Intel platforms. (In the article, he noted that NT development has been dropped for most of these.) Nick reads and responds to his e-mail. I'd recommend setting him straight on any problems with the article. (In particular, he should know that FreeBSD has lkms too.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:26:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18278 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18117 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:25:48 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07459; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:25:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804151725.LAA07459@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:25:27 -0600 To: Das Devaraj , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? In-Reply-To: References: <199804131640.KAA14472@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:44 PM 4/13/98 -0700, Das Devaraj wrote: >The FreeBSD community at large may not want to change the name, >but some enterprising souls may repackage the same thing with a >catchy name (since redistribution seems to be allowed) and make >a few bucks. Any takers on this? :-) I've thought long and hard about this. Yes, it's allowed; anyone who can get a CD-ROM pressed can sell copies. But since Walnut Creek CD-ROM does such a wonderful job of supporting and facilitating the development of FreeBSD, I'd hate to do this and then watch them start pusing Linux (the big seller) instead. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:26:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18505 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18384 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:26:24 GMT (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17409; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: dannyman , Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Side by side... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:17:12 MDT." <199804151717.LAA07364@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: <17405.892661133@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I already dropped him a "way to go" because I was pleased to see someone, ANYONE, actually poking NT in the nose for doing various things wrong. I've seen so many magazines in thrall to the M$ adverti$ing departing that I'm just happy to see anyone swimming in the other direction these days, his citations don't have to be exact nor his facts 100% accurate if he's willing to do that much. :-) Jordan > At 09:58 AM 4/15/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >Agh, don't cross-post. > > > >I saw FreeBSD citations as well as Linux ones at the bottom, > >didn't you? > > > > Jordan > > Yes, but the entire list was mislabeled as having to do only > with Linux. Also, Nick omitted the other *BSDs, which are > important options for non-Intel platforms. (In the article, > he noted that NT development has been dropped for most of > these.) > > Nick reads and responds to his e-mail. I'd recommend setting > him straight on any problems with the article. (In particular, > he should know that FreeBSD has lkms too.) > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 10:31:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20310 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20158 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:30:26 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07509; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:29:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804151729.LAA07509@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:29:54 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , gsutter@pobox.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Noodnix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:45 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >Cool, is Snarfnix-8088 on wcarchive? I've got a few 8088's that are just >begging 'Put Snarfnix on me!!' Noodnix.... Now THERE's a name that'd get attention. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 11:18:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02953 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02944 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:18:38 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 29Y9CLKC; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:19:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01e901bd689a$22650520$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: "Joey Garcia" , "chat@freebsd,org" Subject: Re: Promotion Ideas Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:13:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about a link to the various user groups from www.freebsd.org? And for those that do not have web pages, a contact and phone number. I have not been following these groups for that long (a few months), but I do see several postings that would seem to indicate that people *are interested* in contacting other users. I am the President of a user group here in San Diego, yes it is for Windows, but my point is that a user group is still a *strong and valuable resource* for keeping customers. I will bet my next pay check (or at least someone else's) that if a prospective user sees that there is a support group in his area he will be *more likely* to pursue using it. Notice that I said "sees" in the previous sentence, so don't bury it in the website. David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com -----Original Message----- From: Joey Garcia To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:28 PM Subject: Promotion Ideas > >Here's an idea for promoting FreeBSD. Over in LA area we have lot's of >Computer Shows (I'm sure they have those world wide)...Anyways...why not >open a booth at one of those shows promoting FreeBSD. > >At the booth...We can have a giant poster of the Beastie and a few >machines running FreeBSD showing off what it can do. Also...we can sell >FreeBSD books and CD's. Although, Walnut Creek would have to sponsor that >I think, considering that getting a booth at a computer show costs money. >Although, with book and cd sales ... it maybe worth it. > >Another idea is of course starting a Group...one guy on this list keeps >suggesting that FreeBSD.org does something about doing a FUG (FreeBSD >Users Group)...well the way I see it is that User Groups are up the the >Users .. not really FreeBSD.org. Although...FreeBSD.org should keep and >up to date list on all the User Groups available worldwide. > >If some of you are in school...(perhaps a jounior college or >something)...maybe you can introduce FreeBSD to your C programming >instructor. Maybe he/she would be insterested in starting a class in Unix >via FreeBSD. I have heard of a few Community Colleges using Linux, so >maybe we can help push FreeBSD. > >Hmmm...how about (thinking ...) What if we target already established >"Computer Groups" and try promoting FreeBSD to them. Like giving them a >free CD or something. I'm sure that most of you live in areas that >already have Computer clubs that might not really deal with Unix, yet >should be introduced to Unix. > >I guess one of the problems we have to face is to show to people what >FreeBSD has to offer them and why it's "better" than Linux or other >free-unix's. > >Well...all of these were ideas that I had while I was at work. I don't >know if any are actually possible. Maybe they all are. I guess the thing >is that we have to get off our butts and start doing something....but >trust me...I know that's kinda hard to do. We all have lives and >stuff....right? > >Peace, > > >Joey Bear Garcia > > >=================================================== >Joseph Garcia >Downey, CA >bear@pacificnet.net >"Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." >=================================================== > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 12:14:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14186 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost.wpi.com (angola.wpi.com [206.204.86.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14171 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:14:26 GMT (envelope-from nicholas.petreley@wpi.com) Received: from doris by mailhost.wpi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id MAA02344; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:11:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000801bd68aa$a9e9e910$0c02a8c0@doris.petreley.com> Reply-To: "Nicholas Petreley" From: "Nicholas Petreley" To: "dannyman" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Dan Janowski" , , , Subject: Re: Article: `The new Unix alters NT's orbit' Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:11:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To all, I just wanted to let you know that (while I happen to think my article is *wonderfully* written - grin), I consider your complaints about a lack of BSD-related resources in our resources section 100% valid. Although I've run FreeBSD and BSDI and value them very highly, I spend most of my time in Linux, therefore my familiarity with Linux is much greater. It was easy for me to throw together a list of Linux-related resources, and it was only due to lack of time, energy, and the occasional need for sleep that I was unable to research BSD links before submitting the article. ;) I've requested my friend and coworker Brett Glass (who is a big proponent and user of BSD) to send me a list of useful BSD-related resources, which I will have added to the section. If any of you want to contribute links you think would be valuable to readers of that article, please send them to me (nick@wpi.com) and I'll pick a subset and submit them to be added to the article. Speaking of Brett, be sure to visit his site, http://www.ymmv.com - I think you'll find it very valuable reading. And don't forget to visit our sister sites www.javaworld.com, and www.sunworld.com, and www.ne-dev.com. -Nick Petreley Editor in chief, NC World (http://www.ncworldmag.com) -----Original Message----- From: dannyman To: Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: Dan Janowski ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ; ncweditors@ncworldmag.com Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 8:30 AM Subject: Article: `The new Unix alters NT's orbit' >On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 09:58:44AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Agh, don't cross-post. > >sorry, noticed that right after i ^X :( > >> I saw FreeBSD citations as well as Linux ones at the bottom, >> didn't you? > >ahhh, yeah, that article _is_ poorly written. > >why were the citations not hyperlinked to the body of the article? it >seemed queer that they didn't even link their own article ... > >let's look at how i read it though ... notice ``List of commercial >applications and hardware for Linux'' where all the citations are dumped? >Even WinNT stuff is listed under `Linux' - this caused me to just skip the >whole list! > > Resources > List of commercial applications and hardware for Linux > * UNC's Sunsite repository > http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/products.html > * Linux Applications and Utilities Pages > + http://www.double-barrel.be/linux_apps/textonly.html > + http://www.xnet.com/~blatura/linapps.shtml > + http://www.linuxmall.com/ > * Samba Web page (Native Windows networking on Unix) > http://samba.anu.edu.au/samba/ > * Walnut Creek CDROM offerings of FreeBSD and Linux > http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/os.htm > * RedHat Linux 5.0 > http://www.redhat.com/ > * Caldera OpenLinux 1.2 > http://www.caldera.com/ > * Debian Linux > http://www.debian.org/ > * Linux plus Linux-related management and applications > http://www.infomagic.com/ > * FreeBSD > http://www.freebsd.org > * Sun Solaris > http://www.sun.com/solaris/index.html > * Microsoft Windows NT Server > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/default.asp > * Microsoft Windows NT Workstation > http://www.microsoft.com/ntworkstation/ > * "The Next 10 Minutes: Searching for the next Windows NT," March > 1998 > http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-03-1998/ncw-03-nextten.h > tml > >-- > // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves >\\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 12:20:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15452 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:20:19 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA11678; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:20:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980415142018.12487@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:20:18 -0500 From: dannyman To: Nicholas Petreley Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article: `The new Unix alters NT's orbit' Mail-Followup-To: Nicholas Petreley , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000801bd68aa$a9e9e910$0c02a8c0@doris.petreley.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <000801bd68aa$a9e9e910$0c02a8c0@doris.petreley.com>; from Nicholas Petreley on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 12:11:22PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nick: Please don't take my comments re: poor writing too harshly. You understand that what I do every day is have my own writing critricized and help others with theirs. Nothing's ever wonderfully written here. ;) -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 12:41:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20858 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:41:28 GMT (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18433 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:41:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804151941.NAA18433@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD in the press section on www.FreeBSD.org?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:37:47 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone collecting these various articles and links that mention FreeBSD in a positive light? It would be nice to have a prominent section on our website listing them. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 12:45:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21847 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:45:23 GMT (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07380 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:44:23 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <35350E12.B8DF83BC@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:44:20 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd,org" Subject: Re: Promotion Ideas References: <01e901bd689a$22650520$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Shanes wrote: > How about a link to the various user groups from www.freebsd.org? And > for those that do not have web pages, a contact and phone number. Are anybody from lucky.net here ? Good Idea. -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 14:21:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16913 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16890 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:20:51 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15725; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:25:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980415172556.64802@vmunix.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:25:56 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the press section on www.FreeBSD.org?? References: <199804151941.NAA18433@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804151941.NAA18433@pluto.plutotech.com>; from Justin T. Gibbs on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 01:37:47PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 01:37:47PM -0600, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > Is anyone collecting these various articles and links that mention > FreeBSD in a positive light? It would be nice to have a prominent > section on our website listing them. Yeah.. I'm going to add it to my FreeBSD advocacy site.. I'll be working on it tonight, and I should have this done (they'll be a database where anybody can add press articles) That and the contact database.. -Mark > > -- > Justin > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 15:22:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00909 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00642 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:20:48 GMT (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15550; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804152220.PAA15550@rah.star-gate.com> To: Mark Mayo cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the press section on www.FreeBSD.org?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:25:56 EDT." <19980415172556.64802@vmunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <15547.892678815.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:20:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most Cool! We also a need a ticker tape of FreeBSD News. Actually, we need two ticker tapes one for -current and for the important events in the FreeBSD world. The ticker tape for -current we can safely bury it in www.freebsd.org . The Press ticker tape should be up front in www.freebsd.org and the advocacy web sites. There are lots of ideas on how to present this information www.abcnews.com has a nice scrolling headline ticker and also our Yahoo buddies have a very nice ticker applet. We have to convey the feeling that things are happening in the FreeBSD world. Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 16:09:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11504 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11445 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:09:31 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 29Y9CLWJ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:09:57 -0700 Message-ID: <031301bd68c2$c2ef51d0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: "James Love" Cc: "chat@freebsd,org" Subject: Re: Linux as an alternative to Microsoft Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:03:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mr. Love, I would like to take a minute of your time to personally thank you and your organization for giving FreeBSD its well deserved look. Additionally, the fact that you are reviewing alternatives to a Microsoft world deserves thanks. I am confident that you will find it to be comparable to Linux in many ways and to outperform it in others. Also having a single source for all FreeBSD related documents, frequently asked questions and the operating system itself (http://www.freebsd.org) has strong merits that Linux cannot claim. Good luck with your efforts and may they come to fruition. I hope that the next personal computer that I purchase is bundled with FreeBSD. Sincerely, David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com -----Original Message----- From: James Love To: John Kenagy Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Linux as an alternative to Microsoft >John Kenagy wrote: >> >> Mr. Love, >> >> I appreciate your work and the lifelong efforts of Mr. Nader. >> >> However, there are other, and in my opinion, better options than >> Linux. I use FreeBSD (www.FreeBSD.org), a decendant of the Berkeley >> Unix. >Someone sent me the Walnut Creek version of FreeBSD..... and we are >going to try it out. Jamie > >> >> I beleive it to be more stable than Linux since Linux suffers from >> one of Microsoft's major flaws: trying to be everything to all. >> Linux also relies on development to come from several directions. >> Not a good thing - especially on a system you may make your living >> with. >> >> FreeBSD has a dedicated development team and a large group of >> volunteers who man the mailing lists, responding in their areas of >> expertise. >> >> The best news is that it is free. Or yu can purchase it from >> several major book chains for less than a Windows upgrade, with >> an excellent book by Greg Lehey , "The Complete FreeBSD". >> >> If you have questions, let us know! >> >> Keep up the good work, >> >> John Kenagy >> Austin, Texas > >-- >James Love >Consumer Project on Technology >P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 >love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org >202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5176 > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 17:12:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00620 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:12:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00510 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id TAA21702; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980415191042.24135@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:10:42 -0500 From: dannyman To: Amancio Hasty , Mark Mayo Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the press section on www.FreeBSD.org?? References: <19980415172556.64802@vmunix.com> <199804152220.PAA15550@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804152220.PAA15550@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 03:20:15PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 03:20:15PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Most Cool! > > We also a need a ticker tape of FreeBSD News. > > We have to convey the feeling that things are happening in > the FreeBSD world. We don't want to convey the feeling that we are a bunch of insecure javascript lamers. :) Maybe a little animated GIF that links to the latest news could rock ... -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 17:13:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00937 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-64.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.64]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25419 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:47:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA13707 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804152325.SAA13707@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Bunny Suits (was: asbestos suited static vi) In-reply-to: Message from "Matthew D. Fuller" of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:09:07 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:25:13 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > [ bcc'd to -hackers to reap some opinions, discussion to -chat] > > OK, there are many people against having a static linked vi by default. I > agree with many of the reasons given that it would be a Bad Thing (tm) in > the default. To respond to this thread do I need one of those neon colored suits like the dancers wear in Intel commercials? :-) Everytime I see one of those ads I don't think "hi tech" or "modern". I think "asbestos removal." -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 17:17:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02431 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02277 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06982; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:06:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:06:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass cc: gsutter@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Noodnix In-Reply-To: <199804151729.LAA07509@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:45 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >Cool, is Snarfnix-8088 on wcarchive? I've got a few 8088's that are just > >begging 'Put Snarfnix on me!!' > > Noodnix.... Now THERE's a name that'd get attention. There we go. The bin dist includes /usr/share/jpeg.... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 17:17:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02474 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02273 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07486; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:16:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Chuck Robey wrote: > You realize how simple it is? There's nothing like you hint above, just > one line: > > make NOSHARED=1 clean depend all install > > that's it, done and installed, in the correct directory. Oh, I didn't > include that you have to do it from the vi source directory, and you > have to actually have the sources. It's not some big song and dance. > This, of course, changes what all books on BSD unix will tell you, and > specifically contradicts those few texts that tell you something about > how to handle emergencies, but if you read that much, you ought to be > able to handle the difference. Well, every text I've seen on handling emergencies says something like: 'When this happens, you system may be so screwed that you'll have to use vi to edit these files...', which is the whole reason I learned vi in the first place. An assumption in all the texts I've read and advice I've gotten from various sources is that you may not have pico/joe/emacs that you like, and you'll have to use vi. Also, the above assumes source on hand, which isn't true in a lot of cases. > If you don't, heck, vi is probably the wrong editor anyhow, you'd want > ee, which is simple enough for anyone. > > Last comment: if you really want a port, did you realize it's ALREADY > there? Look at /usr/ports/editors/nvi. Interesting. No, I didn't see it there. I used to scan through the ports every couple weeks thinking 'Hm, what can I play with now?', but since I now have 30 megs free on /usr (out of a gig!) I haven't been doing that. What IS that doing there? If it's in the base system, why do we have a port of it? Different version? Hmm, my /usr/ports/editors/nvi doesn't have a Makefile. Interesting. Does the port compile static? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 17:17:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02457 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02344 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06921; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:04:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:04:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Andreas Klemm cc: "Luke H." , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: <19980415135726.29233@hightek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Andreas Klemm wrote: > I'm against misusing the ports collection for "patching" the base os ! > > Ports live under $(PREFIX), usually /usr/local. > > Please don't take that into consideration. Ports != Base OS. > No exception, ok ?! OK, that's reasonable. > Another point, if you really need a static vi, why don't you > compile a special version yourself and put it into /sbin > or /usr/sbin ? > > Then you don't have to convince the others to built it in as > default ! Aargh!! Will you people READ my mail?? I'm AGREEING that it shouldn't be default. But there ARE some people out there besides me who agree it would be nice to have vi when you come up in single user mode, so why not offer a simple patchkit/package/port that would DO that, with all the termcaps and whatever else you might need to make it work. I'm not saying 'You should do this', I'm saying 'I may do this, who's got hints or interest?' No one's forcing you to install it. Don't try to make this into something it isn't. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 21:05:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23336 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15799; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:04:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804160404.WAA15799@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.327 (Beta) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:04:51 -0600 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , lcremean@tidalwave.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New name? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804151352.JAA17707@shell.monmouth.com> References: <19980414174503.48564@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> > > Anyway, if we're trying to position FreeBSD as a server OS, how about >> > > "Servix"? No need to even bother with a trademark search on that one... If it answers the phone, is it an "answering Servix?" Oh, never mind.... ;-) --Brett "I yam Popeye of Borg. Prepares ta be askimilgrated." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 21:15:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25955 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25854 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05079; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: asbestos suited static vi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > If you don't, heck, vi is probably the wrong editor anyhow, you'd want > > ee, which is simple enough for anyone. > > > > Last comment: if you really want a port, did you realize it's ALREADY > > there? Look at /usr/ports/editors/nvi. > > Interesting. No, I didn't see it there. I used to scan through the ports > every couple weeks thinking 'Hm, what can I play with now?', but since I > now have 30 megs free on /usr (out of a gig!) I haven't been doing that. > What IS that doing there? If it's in the base system, why do we have a > port of it? Different version? > Hmm, my /usr/ports/editors/nvi doesn't have a Makefile. Interesting. > > Does the port compile static? There is still active development going on with nvi, and there are two versions of Keith Bostic's editor there: /usr/ports/editors/nvi-m17n [multiligual support] and /usr/ports/editors/nvi-perl [with perl, obviously] They both use configure, and have CONFIGURE_ARGS, so just add --disable-shared to that variable, and you'll have it statically linked. The version in current is the last nvi version that is labeled stable. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 21:23:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27166 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26963 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA05157; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:52:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980416135236.I1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:52:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Snob Art Genre , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: the place of vi References: <19980415191237.50402@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980415191237.50402@urh.uiuc.edu>; from dannyman on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 07:12:37PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Wed, 15 April 1998 at 19:12:37 -0500, dannyman wrote: > On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 06:10:44PM -0400, Snob Art Genre wrote: >> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> >>> What're you going to say to a poor non-hacker when their system fails to >>> mount their /usr partition, and you can just BARELY convince them that vi >>> is usable? >> >> "Here's a floppy with a statically compiled version of ee on it. I can >> understand not wanting to try to figure out vi when your system is >> blowing up, in fact, I keep a (static) copy of ee in /bin for that same >> reason." > > Indeed, ee would seem a better call, unless it's too bloated - not all > syadmins know how to use vi, but ee is easy enough for even the 'leetest > hackers to figure out when they're trying to ressurect /etc/fstab :) The great advantage of vi is that it's available everywhere. I use Emacs for real work, but it's a pain to use on a character terminal, so I use vi there. I need to know vi for dozens of reasons. Why make me learn a tu^Hhird editor? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 15 22:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08160; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA05389; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:43:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980416144331.V1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:43:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Side by side... Reply-To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199804151405.KAA04007@fnur.3skel.com> <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu>; from dannyman on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:41:47AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -advocacy) On Wed, 15 April 1998 at 10:41:47 -0500, dannyman wrote: > On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:05:03AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > >> Whilest poking around for Java resources, I found this article which >> seems pretty articulate as well as referring to Linux and FreeBSD on par. >> >> http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html?jw > > Errr, yeah, an article full of generalizations unsupported by citation that > mentions FreeBSD and Linux in the same sentence then goes on to list a > bunch of links for Linux at the bottom. > > I get the creepy feeling that it's some sort of underhanded Linux advocacy, > but I don't mind so much given the target. ;) Who messed with your anti-paranoia shot? Seriously, I don't think this message is biased towards Linux. That's the way the Real World sees us, and I don't think it puts us down. I suppose we could point out that FreeBSD has LKMs and is used by some of the world's largest name servers. On the other hand, it does seem a little biased against NT, but it produces some good reasoning. I'd be inclined to ask NC World if they plan to leave the page online, in which case we should link to it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 02:42:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26067 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25556 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10537; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:32:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199804160932.LAA10537@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: how to add new system calls... In-Reply-To: <19980415110441.A938@emsphone.com> from Dan Nelson at "Apr 15, 98 11:04:41 am" To: dnelson@emsphone.com (Dan Nelson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Cc: winter@jurai.net, eivind@yes.no, edavis@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dan Nelson: > So, how many of you people _were_ Amiga hackers in a previous life? Wheren't we all? :-) /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 03:02:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27764 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:02:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27723 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA06408; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:31:44 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980416193144.U1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:31:44 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Class Cc: "Scot W. Hetzel" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Digitally Signed Messages (Re: HEADS UP: CAM cutover in two weeks.) References: <05cb01bd6899$6e0135e0$c3e0d9cf@admin.westbend.net> <19980416133939.F1090@freebie.lemis.com> <3535A5EB.E6B6E281@hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3535A5EB.E6B6E281@hp.com>; from Michael Class on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 08:32:11AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Thu, 16 April 1998 at 8:32:11 +0200, Michael Class wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Wed, 15 April 1998 at 13:08:01 -0500, Scot W. Hetzel wrote: >>> Could you please not send Digitally Signed Messages to the list. For those >>> of us that have mail programs that support it, it is kind of annoying to >>> have to go through 2 displays to just to read the message. >> >> Can somebody give me more information on digital signatures? What >> software supports it? Where can I find the standards definition? > > I think I caused the discussion :-( Iam sorry, I just have the digitial > signing (with X.509 Certificates, done by Netscape Communicator-Mailer) > switched on as default, and forgot to switch it of for the message to > this list. I apologize! No need to apologize. I was just interested. > The reason why I have switched it on by default is that I want to get > people in discussions about digital signing, so that more and more > people will understand how that works in the future. > > Btw: A digital signed message is just a MIME-Message with an attachment > that has the Hash digital encrypted. Do you think that it is evil to use > MIME-Messages on a mailinglist these days? Good question. Personally, I don't, but a lot of people apparently still do. MIME is the way to go, and it's rather shaming that Microsoft does some of it better than we do. Unfortunately, though, people tend to stick with their mailers, and a lot don't handle MIME, or not well. It took me a long time to find a replacement for elm, for example. Your previous point: digital signatures. mutt does this too, though not according to X.509. In general, I have difficulty understanding why anybody should want to send a digitally signed message to people who don't have the ability to check the authenticity of the signature. That applies to a lot of the messages I see on the mutt mailing list, and it makes me wonder whether people are just sending them for the fun of it. On the other hand, I must confess that I did so myself for a few days before I realised how little sense it makes. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 08:28:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24903 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (root@ms11.hinet.net [168.95.4.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24895 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jwlo@ms11.hinet.net) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (h82.s10.ts32.hinet.net [163.32.10.82]) by ms11.hinet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10256 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:31:04 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <353622CA.322EF822@ms11.hinet.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:24:59 +0800 From: Doug Lo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FS advocacy. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, FreeBSDers, The following letter is my teacher sent me the mail that he has a plan about using Free OS' replaced M$ in Taiwan. Would anyone give us some comments or suggestions, thanks in advance. Best regards, Doug Lo. --------- forward message ------------------------------ Now let's talk about promoting free software in general. Let me put my conclusions upfront: writing articles to educate people seems more desperately needed than writing programs to do this and that. Point one: FS don't have to replace M$ entirely in one shot. FS are already used in many corporates. Many of the links which I showed you and many included in my web pages give examples of successful Linux application in business env. I bet you can also find a lot of places using FreeBSD in more demanding situations. However, I strongly suspect that even in these corporates, there are at least a few M$ windows running Word or PowerPoint, just for the sake of communicating with the rest of the world. It is relatively easy to persuade technical people to use FS in server type situations. On the other hand, it is painfully agonizing even trying to explain to the general public that they should choose rtf or html instead of using Word's proprietary file format when saving files, let alone asking them to learn a new word processor. If we can forego the subgoals of converting people from using some of the M$ applications, the task would be much easier. That is, it will be much cost-effective (in terms of our effort) and nonetheless a triumph if we concentrate on converting large corporates to use FS for the most part, leaving Wintels to the end users only for word processing, etc. Point two: Most of consumers are blindly lead by the biased propaganda; we need to provide them with other sources of information. IMO, the lack of Chinese word processor is much less a problem than the lack of world-wide FS information translated into Chinese. A few years ago, FS was not popularly recognized even in USA -- few corporate people knew their existence, and those who did thought it was only for hackers. The situation has changed lately, and facts about FS have spread into corporate users in many countries. However, (in consistence with what you pointed out regarding how to find Visual Tcl/Tk), we don't have that information floating around in Taiwan. The majority are locked inside the Chinese Web communities, which provide some technical info about FS but hardly any _arguments_ why FS are better. On the other hand, the main stream media, computer mags, and even government organizations like ¸êµ¦·| or several conference organizers promote the use of proprietary technologies through ads, hypes, required submission file formats, computer education opportunities,... etc. The public fall prey to the mis-information of the propaganda, and, to the agony of the informed, mistook popularity for open standards. In recognition of these two observations, I propose a few ways in which to direct our efforts more fruitfully. Simply put, let's provide objective information to the real technical people and to the completely uninformed, and let's use the propaganda to revoke the mis-information previously planted in the know-half population's brains. 1. For those of us already working in the Information Technology departments in large corporates, we can convince technical and English-literate people to compare FS with proprietary software objectively by referring them to foreign web sites which provide info rectifying the mis-information in Taiwan. I would particularly recommend: http://slashdot.org/ http://www.eklektix.com/lwn/ http://www.opensource.org/ http://www.fsf.org/ http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/ http://www0.vcnet.com/bms/ Feel free to add your list of sites promoting FreeBSD or whichever FS, but let's keep it from growing indefinitely by insisting that the listed sites should provide news, perspectives, success stories, political issues rather than technical how-to's. Once the techies are willing to give up the prejudice and willing to give it a try, it's a relatively easy task to provide them with further information. 2. For the more adventurous of us, we should really go ahead and start a business using FS. This serves more than individual economical interest. It serves to demonstrate the true advantages of FS by success stories. Let me with a few ideas: a. Internet Cafe: With the release of Netscape Communicator as almost FS, it's even easier now to set up an Internet Cafe completely based on FS. If you can persuade customers to run many lynx processes along with one Communicator process, the readers' throughput gain would be one selling point not found in current Internet Cafe's. b. Using and distributing math-learning tools in cram school: RLaB is a nice tool for learning linear algebra; GNUplot nice for learning calculus; recently there was also an announcement of a FS almost compatible with SAS or SPSS. Most of these are cross-platform, and therefore cram school can use free OS's at work to reduce hardware expenditure (e.g. out-dated 486s) while encouraging students to install their own Windows versions. Used as learning tools, they serve their own purposes and will cause little complaint about the mis-issue of popularity. c. Community Internet service/teaching center: a good population which are not yet on-line probably won't care how to use word processors and other hype apps. They will probably be willing to try when told that the 386 their grandchildren deserted in the corner can be turned into an internet machine with little cost. If we target our objectives clearly as providing Internet services alone, the customers might be attracted simply because they can get on-line accounts, education, installation and maintenance services from the same neighbor's home located at only at a few buildings away. We may then give their grandchildren cool games like Doom and LinCity as a bonus :-) Seriously, this kind of business has the prospect of growing into a tech support company but can live on before that kind of market matures. 3. For the more altruistic of us, we can share the benefits of FS with the less fortunate people in the charities such as orphanage. Sometimes I found the null price becomes a hindrance rather than a help in selling FS to the corporate. (More on this later.) The charities, on the other hand, will perhaps appreciate better the null pirce and the low demand on hardware. The less fortunate will probably also be more open to alternatives which the general public refuse to try out of sheer habit. If we explain objectively the pros of FS's long term return (opportunities to learn the concepts and skills) vs the cons (needing to learn a bit more GUI stuffs not found in FS but immediately needed in the job market), we might get some determined souls to start an otherwise impossible journey. To begin with, they had nothing to lose. We may also point out to them the small business possibilities in (2) as another incentive. 4. For the more out-spoken of us, we should definitely write/translate a lot of articles arguing why FS are better and submit them to the press, put them on the web, and pass them around in as many ways and forms as possible. I would emphatically like to single out one most important technical issue: to educate people on the difference between popularity and open standards, and advocate the use of standard file formats and interface protocols as corporate standard. This would be a first step away from the M$ grip and a step towards objective comparison among alternative programs (and hence towards better acceptance of FS due to their technical excellence). In terms of the presentation style, my (not-yet-rich) experience suggests that the contents have to be tailored towards specific audience in order to gain better acceptance. We know that FS are surely better for individuals and for the society as a whole from many perspectives. However, sometimes it pays not to emphasize certain advantages of FS when advocating it to certain audience. A case in point is the corporate IT managers. Telling them that FS does not cost money seems only to make them look down upon FS as having no technical support. I would advocate instead, that use of FS give them more choices to spend their money on competing sources of technical support since the source codes are available. Sincerely yours, C.K.Hung To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 08:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25991 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:34:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA29726; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:34:16 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA10548; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Digitally Signed Messages (Re: HEADS UP: CAM cutover in two weeks.) In-Reply-To: <19980416193144.U1090@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > Your previous point: digital signatures. mutt does this too, though > not according to X.509. In general, I have difficulty understanding > why anybody should want to send a digitally signed message to people > who don't have the ability to check the authenticity of the > signature. That applies to a lot of the messages I see on the mutt > mailing list, and it makes me wonder whether people are just sending > them for the fun of it. On the other hand, I must confess that I did > so myself for a few days before I realised how little sense it makes. Some users are kind enough to put a line in their .sig like "finger grog@lemis.com for PGP key." This ensures that people _do_ have the ability the check the sig. I make my key availabe on the web because teh admins here don't let finger requests come in from 'net. It can make sense if the key is available. I think signing to raise awareness and acceptance of privacy issues and crypto is important. As soon as I can figure out how to get pine to do it, I will be signing more often. Maybe not to lists, which might be annoyed by the practice, but to everyone else. Are not unix users the evangelists of the computing world? Perhaps my virus crusade .sig will change to a crypto crusade .sig. :) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html PS: You know this .sig actually pisses off a lot of my friends. They think I am wrong about "Good times". They never do read the URL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 08:41:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27466 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27455 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22233; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:41:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804161541.JAA22233@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.327 (Beta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:41:35 -0600 To: Doug Lo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FS advocacy. In-Reply-To: <353622CA.322EF822@ms11.hinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This letter suggests a good way to position FreeBSD relative to Linux: "Linux replaces Windows. FreeBSD replaces NT." --Brett At 11:24 PM 4/16/98 +0800, Doug Lo wrote: >Hi, FreeBSDers, > >The following letter is my teacher sent me the mail that he has a plan >about using Free OS' replaced M$ in Taiwan. >Would anyone give us some comments or suggestions, thanks in advance. > >Best regards, >Doug Lo. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 09:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14350 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13874 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:45:07 GMT (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id SAA14000; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:43:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.co.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02782; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:45:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199804161541.JAA22233@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:45:10 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FS advocacy. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Doug Lo Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Apr-98 Brett Glass wrote: > This letter suggests a good way to position FreeBSD relative to > Linux: > > "Linux replaces Windows. FreeBSD replaces NT." > > --Brett This has an additional funny aspect given that MS announced abandoning Windows in favor of NT: "Sorry Linux, you die." I know, neither of the above is very likely in the short-term future. /Marino ---------------------------------- Marino Ladavac Date: 16-Apr-98 Time: 18:41:43 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 10:10:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20940 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:10:40 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA29318 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029314; Thu, 16 Apr 98 10:10:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35363B54.8288C6B0@partsnow.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:09:40 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: somebody want to snoop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ...and find out more? > MSNBC (Microsoft and NBC's news web site) started using IIS on NT, but > switched to unix because the NT and IIS combination could not handle the > load. You probably won't be experiencing that usage rate, but it's an > interesting observation. --from a post on hwg-servers@hwg.org -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 10:35:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24224 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24163 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:34:54 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18938; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:40:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980416134015.51503@vmunix.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:40:15 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Don Wilde , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: somebody want to snoop References: <35363B54.8288C6B0@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <35363B54.8288C6B0@partsnow.com>; from Don Wilde on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 10:09:40AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA24184 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 10:09:40AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > ...and find out more? > > MSNBC (Microsoft and NBC's news web site) started using IIS on NT, but > > switched to unix because the NT and IIS combination could not handle the > > load. You probably won't be experiencing that usage rate, but it's an > > interesting observation. > --from a post on hwg-servers@hwg.org Doesn't MSNBC use lots of Active Server Page (ASP) stuff?? If they are are running ASP on a Unix platform, that would be quite interesting.. :) -Mark > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >  > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 11:02:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28092 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28008 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:02:42 GMT (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26999 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:57:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NSA's Operation Eligible Receiver Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought this was interesting--I'm inclined to think that all this publicity is a way to further the government interest in key recovery and the like, however. The punch line (last paragraph) is that the password on many military computers is (drum roll please) "password." Annelise THE WASHINGTON TIMES April 16, 1998 Bill Gertz Computer hackers could disable military; System compromised in secret exercise Senior Pentagon leaders were stunned by a military exercise showing how easy it is for hackers to cripple U.S. military and civilian computer networks, according to new details of the secret exercise. Using software obtained easily from hacker sites on the Internet, a group of National Security Agency officials could have shut down the U.S. electric-power grid within days and rendered impotent the command-and-control elements of the U.S. Pacific Command, said officials familiar with the war game, known as Eligible Receiver. "The attack was actually run in a two-week period and the results were frightening," said a defense official involved in the game. "This attack, run by a set of people using standard Internet techniques, would have basically shut down the command-and-control capability in the Pacific theater for some considerable period of time." Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon said, "Eligible Receiver was an important and revealing exercise that taught us that we must be better organized to deal with potential attacks against our computer systems and information infrastructure." The secret exercise began last June after months of preparation by the NSA computer specialists who, without warning, targeted computers used by U.S. military forces in the Pacific and in the United States. The game was simple: Conduct information warfare attacks, or "infowar," on the Pacific Command and ultimately force the United States to soften its policies toward the crumbling communist regime in Pyongyang. The "hackers" posed as paid surrogates for North Korea. The NSA "Red Team" of make-believe hackers showed how easy it is for foreign nations to wreak electronic havoc using computers, modems and software technology widely available on the darker regions of the Internet: network-scanning software, intrusion tools and password-breaking "log-in scripts." According to U.S. officials who took part in the exercise, within days the team of 50 to 75 NSA officials had inflicted crippling damage. They broke into computer networks and gained access to the systems that control the electrical power grid for the entire country. If they had wanted to, the hackers could have disabled the grid, leaving the United States in the dark. Groups of NSA hackers based in Hawaii and other parts of the United States floated effortlessly through global cyberspace, breaking into unclassified military computer networks in Hawaii, the headquarters of the U.S. Pacific Command, as well as in Washington, Chicago, St. Louis and parts of Colorado. "The attacks were not actually run against the infrastructure components because we don't want to do things like shut down the power grid," said a defense official involved in the exercise. "But the referees were shown the attacks and shown the structure of the power-grid control, and they agreed, yeah, this attack would have shut down the power grid." Knocking out the electrical power throughout the United States was just a sideline for the NSA cyberwarriors. Their main target was the U.S. Pacific Command, which is in charge of the 100,000 troops that would be called on to deal with wars in Korea or China. "The most telling thing for the Department of Defense, when all was said and done, is that basically for a two-week period the command-and-control capability in the Pacific theater would have been denied by the 'infowar' attacks, and that was the period of the exercise," the official said. The attackers also foiled virtually all efforts to trace them. FBI agents joined the Pentagon in trying to find the hackers, but for the most part they failed. Only one of the several NSA groups, a unit based in the United States, was uncovered. The rest operated without being located or identified. The attackers breached the Pentagon's unclassified global computer network using Internet service providers and dial-in connections that allowed them to hop around the world. "It's a very, very difficult security environment when you go through different hosts and different countries and then pop up on the doorstep of Keesler Air Force Base [in Mississippi], and then go from there into Cincpac," the official said, using the acronym for the Commander in Chief, Pacific. The targets of the network attacks also made it easy. "They just were not security-aware," said the official. A second official found that many military computers used the word "password" for their confidential access word. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 17:50:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00132 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:50:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29871 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:49:54 GMT (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-233.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.233]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18364 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:49:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA18632 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:49:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804170049.TAA18632@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What is your operating system of choice? From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:49:39 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe somebody else has mentioned this, if so, I missed it. http://features.yahoo.com/survey/ asks, "What is your operating system of choice?" -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 18:47:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14183 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14176 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:47:25 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id UAA13227; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:47:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980416204725.15035@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:47:25 -0500 From: dannyman To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Anatoly Delm Subject: Re: What is your operating system of choice? Mail-Followup-To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Anatoly Delm References: <199804170049.TAA18632@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804170049.TAA18632@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 07:49:39PM -0500 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 07:49:39PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > Maybe somebody else has mentioned this, if so, I missed it. > > http://features.yahoo.com/survey/ asks, "What is your operating system > of choice?" Of 149391 votes so far... Windows 2% [INLINE] Macintosh 33% [INLINE] Unix 11% [INLINE] BeOS 12% [INLINE] Palm Pilot 1% [INLINE] Nintendo 64 37% [INLINE] Interesting. No Amiga? :( -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 19:34:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22467 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22386 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:33:51 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA21261; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:03:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980417120347.K1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:03:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Andrew Reilly , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Digitally Signed Messages (Re: HEADS UP: CAM cutover in two wee ks.) References: <19980416162753.I1090@freebie.lemis.com> <199804162315.JAA06772@gurney.reilly.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=UugvWAfsgieZRqgk X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199804162315.JAA06772@gurney.reilly.home>; from Andrew Reilly on Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 09:15:31AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (moved to -chat) On Fri, 17 April 1998 at 9:15:31 +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote: > On 16 Apr, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thu, 16 April 1998 at 10:05:20 +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote: >>> On 15 Apr, Scot W. Hetzel wrote: >>>> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 >>>> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 >> >> Just because it's Outlook? > > No. I've never used Outlook, but I've been biassed against Microsoft's > e-mail products by the obnoxious things all of the previous versions > have done to me over the years. That was more or less what I was suggesting :-) > My original comment was intended to suggest that a mailer that did not > handle digital signatures in a way that is convenient for the recipient > must be broken by design. Note that convenient handling can > legitimately include ignoring it altogether, or tagging it as an > unrecognised MIME attachment. Well, I've found more badly formatted messages from Outlook than all the others put together, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible to use it correctly. But it *is* configurable. I often send out message in the first attachment to people who send out one-line-per-paragraph messages (which seems to be Outlook's default). Many reply to me with correctly formatted messages either thanking me for drawing it to their attention, abusing me in no uncertain terms, or saying "what are you talking about", as if they hadn't changed anything. I suspect that there are ways to configure Outlook to do what you propose with digital signatures. The real problem is probably to explain to people what they should be using. I've written http://www.lemis.com/email.html for that purpose. Comments welcome. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=No-line-breaks I'm sorry, I can't read this message. It contains no line breaks in paragraphs, it is a pain to read, and it's completely avoidable. I no longer reply to the contents of such messages. Since I haven't examined the message more closely, this also means that I may send you more than one copy of this message, and that I don't know whether I could answer your question or not. I'm not writing to bitch about this: there are a couple of serious reasons. First, writing this kind of message significantly reduces your chances of getting a useful reply, and secondly there's a good chance that you're not aware this is happening. If this is the case, there is a possibility that it is due to your mailer, either because it is broken by design, or because it is incorrectly configured. I have noted that the following mailers seem to have problems in this area: "Microsoft Mail" Microsoft Outlook Mozilla (Netscape) Yahoo! mail exmh Why do so many "reputable" mailers have these problems? Bugs are one reason, of course, but there's more to it than that. Microsoft-based mailers think they're doing you a favour by either leaving it to the receiver to decide how to display the message (this results in one-line paragraphs), or ensuring that no line is longer than a certain length. If this 'certain length' is slightly shorter than what you enter, it creates a long and a short line out of each line. So what's wrong with these approaches? 1. The mail standards are explicit: the mail type "text/plain" should display exactly as written. This is a feature, not a bug. Microsoft, in particular, often ignores this requirement. Consider what this can do to a message which is split into two columns. 2. Normally, when you reply to a mail message, you 'quote' it by putting a '> ' sequence at the beginning of each line. For example: --- example --- Fred Bloggs said: > OK, Joe, how about gettting together on Saturday and finding > out what's wrong with this machine. I can bring along a > logic analyzer and a second machine for debugging. Thanks, Fred, let's do it. How does 2:30 pm sound? --- end example --- If your mailer wraps this message, you could get things like: > OK, Joe, how about gettting together on Saturday and finding > out what's wrong with this machine. I can bring along a > logic analyzer and a second machine for debugging. alternatively, they could be: > OK, Joe, how about gettting together on Saturday and finding out > what's wrong with this machine. I can bring along a logic > analyzer and a second machine for debugging. I hope you'll agree that both of these look much worse. Of course, it could be that my examples don't show up well on your system. I don't know how to help you in that case. For further information, take a look at http://www.lemis.com/email.html If you do succeed in fixing the configuration, please let me know. It seems to be difficult, and so far I don't have much information to offer in the web page. Greg --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 21:24:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13310 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (root@ms11.hinet.net [168.95.4.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13260 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:23:58 GMT (envelope-from jwlo@ms11.hinet.net) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (h230.s7.ts32.hinet.net [163.32.7.230]) by ms11.hinet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23460 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:26:22 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <3536D882.949B2310@ms11.hinet.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:20:19 +0800 From: Doug Lo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 16 23:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-1-45.stratos.net [207.86.132.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06934 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:18:54 GMT (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost.net [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00273; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:36:39 GMT Message-Id: <199804170136.BAA00273@stratos.net> To: Greg Lehey cc: Snob Art Genre , FreeBSD Chat , drifter@stratos.net Subject: Re: the place of vi In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:52:36 +0930." <19980416135236.I1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:36:38 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, what's wrong with ed? (Laugh, that was a joke -- really) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 01:20:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04662 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04592 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:20:03 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA09522; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:19:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980417181938.50730@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:19:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: drifter@stratos.net Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: the place of vi References: <19980416135236.I1090@freebie.lemis.com> <199804170136.BAA00273@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804170136.BAA00273@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:36:38AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:36:38AM +0000, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > So, what's wrong with ed? Nothing at all. I can find my way around ed, but vi is way too hard. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 03:49:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA26613 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luckssv.lucksnet.or.jp (luckssv.tsuyama.lucksnet.or.jp [202.235.120.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA26570 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:49:30 GMT (envelope-from sada@lucksnet.or.jp) Received: from lucksnet.or.jp (as109.tsuyama.lucksnet.or.jp [202.235.121.202]) by luckssv.lucksnet.or.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/CF3.4W-LUCKSNET-V1.00/96020510) with ESMTP id TAA25449 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:49:26 +0900 Message-ID: <35373318.995AEC4C@lucksnet.or.jp> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:46:48 +0900 From: Makoto Sadakane X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [ja] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 13:43:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22841 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22814 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:43:41 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id QAA13529 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Netscape 4.05 test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm I seem to have encountered a bug in netscape 4.05. Someone else pointed it out to me as well. When I load my pages at http://open-systems.net with netscape 4.05 it causes 4.05 to core dump and die. Anyone know why this happens. It didn't happen with 4.04. I'm just curious why its dumping. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 17:06:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:06:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17193 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:05:52 GMT (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01341; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804180002.RAA01341@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Peter Hawkins cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:54:25 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:02:20 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I know a guy who, some years ago went out to a school to bootstrap their old > mainframe from the console switch panel. It failed and it turned out they needed > some hardware driver or other and was about to leave for his car to get > the manual when some pimply teen grabbed the seat and started throwing > switches. "now try". It worked first time. He wrote the driver in his > head and keyed it in from the switch panel without resorting to paper. > Remember *that* next time you've got hor chin in your hands and are > staring through glazed eyes at a session of vi /usr/src/sys/pci/... This guy appears to have a lot of friends. I can't count the number of times I've heard that story from bewhiskered old farts. 8) Take another context, and ask how that kid is today. "Greg, the stop sign!" (If you don't understand, you won't.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 19:17:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09210 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA09178 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:17:00 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15857; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804180216.UAA15857@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.327 (Beta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:16:27 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: No mention of FreeBSD on major radio show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today's Talk of the Nation/Science Friday focused on free software. It talked about -- guess what? -- Linux, and omitted FreeBSD. I think it's time for some letters to Ira Flatow, the show's host. See http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Apr/hour2b_041798.html and the April 17th RealAudio archive at http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/9804.totn.html when it shows up on Saturday. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:08:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:19:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23043 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:22:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23094 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23724 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:26:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23791 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:26:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23899 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 21:28:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24218 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21617 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA17976; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:50:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: djhoward@cs.uiuc.edu Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm testing a procmail recipe. No biggy; # Just to be sure anything mailed TO me aint filtered elsewhere ... # (after deleting duplicates) :0 c: .msgids.lock * ^Message-Id: *\/[^ ].* | formail -D 16384 .msgids :0 e: * ^TO(dannyman|djhoward) $DEFAULT -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 22:18:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02962 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:18:42 GMT (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17866; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:18:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804180518.XAA17866@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.327 (Beta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:18:01 -0600 To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Rick C. Petty" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Repost the man of the century URL Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <353376A3.ED81EA2D@ibm.net> References: <199804141224.MAA08648@kris.wpi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think we should enter Chuck the Daemon. ;-) --Brett At 07:45 AM 4/14/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >> > I am with Mr. Lehey. A vote for Linus is a vote for free software. >> >> http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html >> >> Make sure you place his name (if you do so) under the "Builders and >> Titans" field. >> >Actually, the %ages are very low. We could easily overtake Billy boy >here. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 17 22:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03034 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles115.castles.com [208.214.165.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03019 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:18:57 GMT (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00633; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804180516.WAA00633@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Peter Wemm cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/dpt dpt_control.c src/sys/gnu/ext2fs... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:11:20 +0800." <199804180411.MAA16043@spinner.netplex.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:15:59 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Dag-Erling C. Sm\xf8rgrav" wrote: > > Seventy-odd "its" / "it's" typos in comments fixed as per kern/6108. > > What the hell??? I don't call this "fixing typos", as far as I can tell, > most of these changes have broken the correct usage. Ouch, you really bit that one. At least it wasn't 71 "its" -> "itz" changes. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 00:20:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16692 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16651 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:20:10 GMT (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA21494; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:20:05 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980418102004.11203@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:20:04 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Spelling etc. References: <35329CF4.65DE8E18@hdz-ima.rwth-aachen.de> <19980416135716.36703@techunix.technion.ac.il> <19980416221256.50848@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980416221256.50848@jraynard.demon.co.uk>; from James Raynard on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 10:12:56PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, James Raynard, were spotted writing this on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 10:12:56PM +0100: > > Well, a few weeks ago I sent a send-pr with a diff attached > > that eliminated _all_ its/it's mistakes in the kernel source > > (there were about 70 of them). Nothing resulted; I still hope > > someone would deal with it. > > It's in my pile of things to look at, but there are a lot of things > ahead of it... Thanks, but Dan-Erling has just applied it. I'm a happy man! ;) Have a good one, Anatoly. P.S. Thanks Dan! ;) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 00:30:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17648; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:30:08 GMT (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id JAA15381; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:15:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13183; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:45:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980418084539.05550@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:45:39 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Satoshi Asami Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: size of the ports collection (was Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX) References: <199804171106.EAA10687@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804171106.EAA10687@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Satoshi Asami on Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 04:06:45AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 04:06:45AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > Oops, forgot to commit this. We have 1,345 ports (now with mozilla!). Wow, incredible ! Don't know another Unix, that has another ports collection of that size and quality. -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 00:44:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19210 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:44:11 GMT (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA23295; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:44:07 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980418104406.26491@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:44:06 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spelling etc. References: <35329CF4.65DE8E18@hdz-ima.rwth-aachen.de> <19980416135716.36703@techunix.technion.ac.il> <19980416221256.50848@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <19980418102004.11203@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980418102004.11203@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:20:04AM +0300 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Anatoly Vorobey, were spotted writing this on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:20:04AM +0300: > > Thanks, but Dan-Erling has just applied it. I'm a happy man! ;) Arrgh! _Dag_-Erling. Had to make one spelling mistake somewhere, I suppose ;) Apologizing, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 05:34:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27281 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:34:53 GMT (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05516; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:34:51 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04919; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:34:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980418143450.05176@follo.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:34:50 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Bob Bishop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/dpt dpt_control.c src/sys/gnu/ext2fs... References: <199804180411.MAA16043@spinner.netplex.com.au> <3538336F.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Bob Bishop on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:15:38AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:15:38AM +0100, Bob Bishop wrote: > At 6:00 am +0100 18/4/98, Julian Elischer wrote: > >[...] > >sorry to contradict you Peter but this is the trick.. > > > >"its" is a single word, the same as: > >"his" and "her" > > > >as in: > > > >his cat, her cat, its cat > > > > > >the other version, e.g. > >"Joh's crow" or "John's VM code", > >shouldn't be confused with this.. > > FWIW, the the trick with the apostrophe is that it indicates something has > been left out. This is obvious in the case of can't <=> cannot. For "John's > cat" you'd have to go back maybe 500 years to hear someone say "John his > cat", but I believe that's more or less how the "'s" possessive originated. Explict possessives in english? Hmm. I was fairly it was derived from the case (ger kasus) of the word; ie, the old genetive case present in latin, greek and the germanic languages. This resulted/results in an s ending for possessives. Where that case originally came from I don't know, but it seems to have been a carry over from the original indo-european, if you look at which places it exist :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 06:31:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05251 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 06:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05041; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:30:56 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-251.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.251]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA16284; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:30:42 GMT Message-ID: <3538AAE6.D313CFEC@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 06:30:14 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm CC: Satoshi Asami , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: size of the ports collection References: <199804171106.EAA10687@freefall.freebsd.org> <19980418084539.05550@klemm.gtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Don't know another Unix, that has another ports collection of > that size and quality. or consistency, or up-to-dateness. It's really great that _all_ the ports are updated regularly, that way my system gets updated with a minimum of work. And yes, I know some software is updated even faster, but I know my FreeBSD ports _work_! Thanks, Satoshi! Thanks, team! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 11:25:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05742 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05492 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:25:33 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA28514; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:25:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980418132529.32527@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:25:29 -0500 From: dannyman To: Marc Slemko Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test References: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Marc Slemko on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:38:06AM -0600 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:38:06AM -0600, Marc Slemko wrote: > Why the heck would you spew half a dozen test messages to the mailing list > just to test some local setup? i have no idea. i spewed one message, and did not expect at all for a mail loop to occur. does it make any sense to you why that recipe should create a mail loop? i've tested far more extensively now and still can't replicate the behaviour. -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 12:15:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA13438 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:15:32 GMT (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA27116 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org); Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:15:24 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA14407; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:16:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: makes you wonder... To: rene@tcja.nl (Rene 'Freeze' de Vries), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:16:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Found this on the Usenet. True? Wilko -------- Stung by the public relations fallout from antitrust investigations of its business practices, Microsoft Corp. has secretly been planning a massive media campaign designed to influence state investigators by creating the appearance of a groundswell of public support for the company. The elaborate plan, outlined in confidential documents obtained by The Times, hinges on a number of unusual-and some say unethical-tactics, including the planting of articles, letters to the editor and opinion pieces to be commissioned by Microsoft's top media handlers but presented by local firms as spontaneous testimonials. .... Even in the modern world of corporate spin control, the proposed plan is unusual in its scope, tactics and targets. The campaign is beibeing choreographed by Edelman Public Relations, a giant PR firm with close ties to Microsoft. But sources said it is designed to appear not as a major thrust by Microsoft or Edelman, but as an eruption of grass-roots support. .... Opinion pieces are to be written by freelance writers, and perhaps a "national economist," according to one document. The writers would be paid with costs "billed to Microsoft as an out-of-pocket expense." .... Los Angeles Times, 10 april 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 13:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19290 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:04:07 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-237.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.237]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA74272; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:04:02 GMT Message-ID: <35390712.FA7A4EE@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:03:30 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wilko Bulte CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It was repeated many places. I just have one thing to add... > > The classically-minded among us may have noted a new TV ad for > Microsoft's Internet Explorer e-mail program which uses the > musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's > Requiem. > > "Where do we want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen. > Meanwhile, the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis > acribus addictis," which means: > > "The damned and the accursed are convicted to flames of hell." ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 13:39:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25090 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25073; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:39:00 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA19069; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:38:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980418153851.52658@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:38:51 -0500 From: dannyman To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Andreas Klemm Cc: Satoshi Asami , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: size of the ports collection References: <199804171106.EAA10687@freefall.freebsd.org> <19980418084539.05550@klemm.gtn.com> <3538AAE6.D313CFEC@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3538AAE6.D313CFEC@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:30:14AM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:30:14AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > Don't know another Unix, that has another ports collection of > > that size and quality. > or consistency, or up-to-dateness. It's really great that _all_ the > ports are updated regularly, that way my system gets updated with a Well, most of them ... ;) > minimum of work. And yes, I know some software is updated even faster, > but I know my FreeBSD ports _work_! Well, most of the time. :> I know I'm spoiled. -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 13:44:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26169 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:44:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26145 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:43:58 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA21022; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:43:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980418154358.47165@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:43:58 -0500 From: dannyman To: Wilko Bulte , "Rene 'Freeze' de Vries" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... Mail-Followup-To: Wilko Bulte , Rene 'Freeze' de Vries , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:16:20PM +0200 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:16:20PM +0200, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Found this on the Usenet. True? > Stung by the public relations fallout from antitrust investigations of > its business practices, Microsoft Corp. has secretly been planning a > massive media campaign designed to influence state investigators by > creating the appearance of a groundswell of public support for the company. > > The elaborate plan, outlined in confidential documents obtained by The > Times, hinges on a number of unusual-and some say unethical-tactics, > including the planting of articles, letters to the editor and opinion > pieces to be commissioned by Microsoft's top media handlers but > presented by local firms as spontaneous testimonials. Maybe we and Linux could sue them for stealing our ideas? :) -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 15:01:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10658 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6454.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6454.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10601; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:00:57 GMT (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6454.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00363; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:58:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6454.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:58:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Alok K. Dhir" cc: danny@panda.hilink.com.au, jak@cetlink.net, peter@netplex.com.au, des@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correct English style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Alok K. Dhir wrote: > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 danny@panda.hilink.com.au wrote: > > > When someone who learnt English as a second language corrects English > ^^^^^^ > > That's "learned". :-) Not in my dictionary. :) Exceptions, special-cases, varied tenses, etc. are signs of cultural sophistication within a language, and I will not have English brought to the level of a four-year old! "Learned" vs. "learnt", of course, probably depends partly on which dialect's dictionary you are checking. Incidenctally, I happen to believe that the past-tense of "to fit" is "fat" (one of several ideosyncracies in my own personal dialect). Consider yourself warned. :-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 15:35:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16565 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-1-14.quick.net (josh@newport-1-14.quick.net [207.212.160.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16550 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:35:26 GMT (envelope-from josh@newport-1-14.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-1-14.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27162; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:35:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980418153514.A27117@newport-1-14.quick.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:35:14 -0700 From: Josh Gilliam To: dannyman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test References: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> <19980418132529.32527@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.1 In-Reply-To: <19980418132529.32527@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> X-Editor: nvi 1.79 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 X-IRC: soil Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Why the heck would you spew half a dozen test messages to >> the mailing list just to test some local setup? > > i have no idea. You should have used the freebsd-test mailing list. -- Josh Gilliam 5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499 Orange CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 15:42:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17577 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17544 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:42:16 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA02178; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:42:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980418174212.01516@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:42:12 -0500 From: dannyman To: Josh Gilliam Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test and re-apology References: <19980417225014.12512@urh.uiuc.edu> <19980418132529.32527@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> <19980418153514.A27117@newport-1-14.quick.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980418153514.A27117@newport-1-14.quick.net>; from Josh Gilliam on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:35:14PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:35:14PM -0700, Josh Gilliam wrote: > >> Why the heck would you spew half a dozen test messages to > >> the mailing list just to test some local setup? > > > > i have no idea. > > You should have used the freebsd-test mailing list. thanks. actually, i have tried to subscribe to it, and got a message that freebsd-test is closed, and that i should try subscribing to freebsd-freebsd-test, but that seems not to exist. again, if my apology did not go through last night, someone mentioned the good idea of blacklisting my messages, then i would like to reiterate that i am sorry for any irritation or other problems that my (wholly unexpected) mail loop thing caused. i only sent the message to chat because i just wanted a message coming from a mailing list that was also addressed to one of my addresses, so that i would receive it twice and verify the proper operation of the recipe, which i attached simply because sending a test message is disingenuous, whereas including an interesting recipe to a list that's meant, more or less, for off-topic such sorts of things seems more sensible. -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 16:57:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00941 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:57:23 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id QAA27366 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:57:22 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id QAA13609 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: -advocacy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone getting traffic on -advocacy? I am not. Perhaps it is to new to have a large subscribership. (???) I _know_ that I did not mess up with procmail again! :) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 17:36:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10184 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10172; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:36:28 GMT (envelope-from jasonc@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/01/20 5.9)) id UAA14740; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:36:27 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from k6-200 (ts001d01.lan-mi.concentric.net [206.173.98.13]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id UAA09480; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001bd6b2b$6b83afc0$023aa8c0@k6-200> From: "Jason" To: , "Alok K. Dhir" Cc: , , , , Subject: Re: Correct English style Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:37:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And all this has to do with FreeBSD in what way? :) Jason (with a Midwestern American Accent) -----Original Message----- From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Alok K. Dhir Cc: danny@panda.hilink.com.au ; jak@cetlink.net ; peter@netplex.com.au ; des@FreeBSD.ORG ; chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Correct English style >On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Alok K. Dhir wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 danny@panda.hilink.com.au wrote: >> >> > When someone who learnt English as a second language corrects English >> ^^^^^^ >> >> That's "learned". :-) > >Not in my dictionary. :) > >Exceptions, special-cases, varied tenses, etc. are signs of >cultural sophistication within a language, and I will not have >English brought to the level of a four-year old! "Learned" vs. >"learnt", of course, probably depends partly on which dialect's >dictionary you are checking. > >Incidenctally, I happen to believe that the past-tense of "to >fit" is "fat" (one of several ideosyncracies in my own personal >dialect). Consider yourself warned. :-) > > >-- > tIM...HOEk >OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names > hoping that the resultant code will run faster. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 17:53:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13062 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:53:07 GMT (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22130; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:33:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:33:31 +0100 From: James Raynard To: Wilko Bulte Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:16:20PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:16:20PM +0200, Wilko Bulte wrote: [snip] > The elaborate plan, outlined in confidential documents obtained by The > Times, hinges on a number of unusual-and some say unethical-tactics, > including the planting of articles, letters to the editor and opinion > pieces to be commissioned by Microsoft's top media handlers but > presented by local firms as spontaneous testimonials. Will anyone notice the difference? Every publication I see these days (both technical and non-technical) seems to have been edited by Microsoft's PR team. :-( -- `"regression testing"? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is perfect.' - Linus Torvalds on linux-kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 19:02:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23495 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23434 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:02:13 GMT (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA14468; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:01:58 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980419050157.52259@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:01:57 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correct English style References: <001001bd6b2b$6b83afc0$023aa8c0@k6-200> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <001001bd6b2b$6b83afc0$023aa8c0@k6-200>; from Jason on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:37:56PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Jason, were spotted writing this on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:37:56PM -0400: > And all this has to do with FreeBSD in what way? > :) Well, you see, in some folks' dialects "Free" is actually pronounced as you would pronounce "Net", and in some - as "Open". See how much confusion this has caused? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 21:10:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06900 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06895 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:10:34 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08442; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3539792B.AF420C35@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:10:19 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: -advocacy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 79 msg since i'm subscribe ;-) Malartre Jason C. Wells wrote: > Is anyone getting traffic on -advocacy? I am not. Perhaps it is to new > to have a large subscribership. (???) > > I _know_ that I did not mess up with procmail again! :) > > Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... > Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 21:18:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07493 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA07482; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:18:53 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08913; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35397B1C.F90974D8@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:18:36 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: #freebsd-newbies on effnet. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone is interested to give bots for a #freebsd-newbies channel on effnet? I think it should be a place for (maybe stupid) question about any newbie-related-thing anyone interested to support it? cya Malartre (sorry for the cross-mailling on 2 mailling list) -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 21:33:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08578 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08568; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:33:54 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22454; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:31:47 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Malartre cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: #freebsd-newbies on effnet. In-Reply-To: <35397B1C.F90974D8@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Effnet is too much of a pain....we'd have to worry about channel takeovers and BS like that. Wouldnt Dalnet's services be more suitable? Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > Someone is interested to give bots for a #freebsd-newbies channel on > effnet? > > I think it should be a place for (maybe stupid) question about any > newbie-related-thing > > anyone interested to support it? > cya > Malartre > > (sorry for the cross-mailling on 2 mailling list) > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------- > malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 > www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project > Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 21:44:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09983; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:44:21 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10289; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35398112.5150D78@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:44:02 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: #freebsd-newbies on effnet. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joey Garcia wrote: > Effnet is too much of a pain....we'd have to worry about channel takeovers > and BS like that. Wouldnt Dalnet's services be more suitable? > I dont think so: the main channel is on effnet. There is no one on undernet and dalnet :-/And who wish to takeover freebsd-newbies? and if that appen, find som ircop who run freebsd ;-)))))))))))))))) hehe cya Malartre > Joey Garcia > > =================================================== > Joseph Garcia > Downey, CA > bear@pacificnet.net > "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." > =================================================== > > On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > Someone is interested to give bots for a #freebsd-newbies channel on > > effnet? > > > > I think it should be a place for (maybe stupid) question about any > > newbie-related-thing > > > > anyone interested to support it? > > cya > > Malartre > > > > (sorry for the cross-mailling on 2 mailling list) > > > > > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------- > > malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 > > www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project > > Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 22:03:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12631 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:03:02 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA55892; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:02:41 GMT Message-ID: <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:02:11 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Raynard CC: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We _are_ making a difference. InfoWorld is getting downright positive about freeware in business, and Network World's editor asked me to speak at NW+IOP on the basis of my use and satisfaction with FreeBSD. Patience is necessary, and still more legwork. Just keep doing what we're doing: making FreeBSD shine, boasting everywhere, and bashing others (except MS!!!) as little as possible. We gain a lot from the Linux folks, too, so I'd leave them to their path. My feeling is that those smart enough to choose will choose FreeBSD when presented with the choice, and those who aren't smart, won't, and we don't want them anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 22:35:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16163 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pentagon.io.com (cmconn@pentagon.io.com [199.170.88.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA16149 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:35:47 GMT (envelope-from cmconn@pentagon.io.com) Received: (from cmconn@localhost) by pentagon.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23641; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:35:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:35:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804190535.AAA23641@pentagon.io.com> From: Christopher Mark Conn To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... In-Reply-To: <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don Wilde writes: > We _are_ making a difference. InfoWorld is getting downright positive > about freeware in business, and Network World's editor asked me to speak > at NW+IOP on the basis of my use and satisfaction with FreeBSD. Patience > is necessary, and still more legwork. Just keep doing what we're doing: > making FreeBSD shine, boasting everywhere, and bashing others (except > MS!!!) as little as possible. We gain a lot from the Linux folks, too, > so I'd leave them to their path. My feeling is that those smart enough > to choose will choose FreeBSD when presented with the choice, and those > who aren't smart, won't, and we don't want them anyway. I'm kinda new to the free software world (I use GNU Emacs at work and will install FreeBSD on my Dell PII when I buy it in a few weeks) but a lot of the appeal of different OS's seems personality-driven, FreeBSD types seem to like stability and tradition more, Linux types seem more experimental, maybe? I think it's the combination of all of these personalities that make the free software world so interesting, gives us so many choices. As has been said many times, we have to keep in mind who the real enemy is :-) Looking forward to having my own 'workstation' at home (will sure beat sending mail on my current 'system', a WYSE terminal dialed in to my ISP)... Chris Conn cmconn@io.com Leander, Texas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 18 23:19:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22040 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:19:24 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id XAA16380; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:19:22 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id XAA20447; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Don Wilde cc: James Raynard , Wilko Bulte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... In-Reply-To: <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > We _are_ making a difference. InfoWorld is getting downright positive > about freeware in business, and Network World's editor asked me to speak > at NW+IOP on the basis of my use and satisfaction with FreeBSD. Patience > is necessary, and still more legwork. Just keep doing what we're doing: > making FreeBSD shine, boasting everywhere, and bashing others (except > MS!!!) as little as possible. We gain a lot from the Linux folks, too, > so I'd leave them to their path. My feeling is that those smart enough > to choose will choose FreeBSD when presented with the choice, and those > who aren't smart, won't, and we don't want them anyway. Hear Hear! hmmm Here hear! Hear, hear! Here. here. ... ??? makes you wonder... Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message