From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 01:49:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25461 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id KAA09780; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:45:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07371; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:57:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980606225718.A5819@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:57:18 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: IBS / Andre Oppermann , Alastair Rankine Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.99999? References: <356B61CF00000112@clarence.progmatics.com.au> <3577EB9A.55A8271A@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3577EB9A.55A8271A@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 02:59:06PM +0200 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 02:59:06PM +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Alastair Rankine wrote: > > > > At 05:55 PM 4/06/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >fabulously stable, but -current has so many appealing features that are not > > >being migrated back to 2.2.x (for instance, CAM, DOS VMs, long user names, > > >64-bit dates, etc.) that I'd be sacrificing a lot if I installed 2.2.6. And > > > > On a slightly related issue, it sure would be nice to be able to even find > > out what's coming up in -current! > > I'm working on that ;-) It will be up somewhen on the weekend. I'll > announce it here on the list. Great ! -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 01:53:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25665 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA25657 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:53:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.162]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:54:54 +0200 Received: from neuron.webmore.de (malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00712; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980606190148.A4666@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:51:18 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: Andreas Klemm Subject: RE: C't computer magazine, 12/98, p. 196ff Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org YES !!! This pisses me off all the time with the c't Generally every bit of UNIX- / X-software is called Linux-software in the c't. Never thought that many writers for the c't are so ignorant. BTW: Andreas, how about letting some people (maybe on this list) read your upcoming article for the c't to make some minor suggestions and / or corrections ? (Probably under NDA :) I've read your last FreeBSD-article in the c't and loved it. Great work !!! Malte. On 06-Jun-98 Andreas Klemm wrote: > Doppelhertz, Zwei Prozessoren im DeskTop-PC (Uwe Post, Peter Siering) > > "...Under todays popular Desktop Operating Systems only Windows NT > and Linux support two or more CPU's... > other operating systems, for example OS/2 support multiple processors > only in special server versions..." > > Well, will write an e-mail to them ... > FreeBSD and Solaris x86 do so as well ... > No special server version ... > > Andreas /// > > > > -- > Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas > What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? > http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html > "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 07-Jun-98 Time: 10:40:10 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 01:53:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA25661 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.162]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:54:56 +0200 Received: from neuron.webmore.de (malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00716; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <002001bd91d8$4c7d85a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: Jason Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT , James Raynard , Jack Velte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason, how about surfing http://www.usdoj.gov/ ??? I've found the documents this way (yesterday). For completeness here are the urls: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f1700/1762.htm http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f1700/1763.htm Malte. On 07-Jun-98 Jason wrote: >>http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm > > > File Not Found > The requested URL /atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm was not found on this server. > >>http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm >> > > File Not Found > The requested URL /atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm was not found on this server. > > > >>these are two recent suits posted on the list. >> >>as a personal favor, i'd like the email addresses of the attorney >>generals listed in this document, if someone would like to work >>on that. >> >>regards, >> >>-jack >> > > Maybe they dismissed the case for lack of real evidence :) > > Anyone have better urls? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 07-Jun-98 Time: 10:35:43 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 05:26:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22184 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22179 for chat; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:26:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:26:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806071226.FAA22179@hub.freebsd.org> To: chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org please ignore this message, i just need to chck formatting. ;( jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 08:46:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18340 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18305 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id LAA28584; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:46:34 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from kib (ts003d16.lan-mi.concentric.net [206.173.98.76]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id LAA13004; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001501bd922c$265d31a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: Cc: "FREEBSD-CHAT" , "James Raynard" , "Jack Velte" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:51:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Jason, > >how about surfing http://www.usdoj.gov/ ??? >I've found the documents this way (yesterday). > >For completeness here are the urls: > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f1700/1762.htm >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f1700/1763.htm > >Malte. > Thanks....these worked. Must have had a typo in the other ones. Who knows. But I am getting it now. I have been asking for this for about 2 weeks now :) Nice to know some of you really care enough to help me out instead of flaming me down because I dont have time to search the 65 thousand hits I get from search engines on this topic. Thanks Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 10:26:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05720 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05618 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05435; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:26:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:26:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199806071726.TAA05435@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: ted@taki.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Palm III Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat you wrote: > I'm thinking of purchasing a PalmPilot (the Palm III, specifically), and I > was wondering if anyone could give me an opinion (also FreeBSD compatibility). > Please reply to me directly, as I don't want to clutter the list with irrelevance. There's an article about the PalmPilot and FreeBSD in the latest FreeBSD Newsletter (issue #2). You can get it in PDF format from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/newsletter/ or in PostScript format from ftp7.de.freebsd.org. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 13:12:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29269 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:12:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zam0.attnet.or.jp (ns.zama.attnet.or.jp [165.76.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29222 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stoneab@zam0.attnet.or.jp) Received: from zam0.attnet.or.jp (18.gate1.zama.attnet.or.jp [165.76.83.97]) by zam0.attnet.or.jp (8.8.8+Spin/3.6Wbeta7-CONS(11/21/97)) id FAA22974; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 05:11:40 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <357AF3D1.D66B43A1@zam0.attnet.or.jp> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 05:10:57 +0900 From: "Alan B. Stone" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org % mail majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG subscribe freebsd-chat ^D -- Alan B. Stone Senior Technical Representative Communications Technology Research Activity Japan Email: stoneab@zam0.attnet.or.jp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 14:24:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09046 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (intranet.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08924 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA228 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:23:07 +0200 Message-ID: <357B04BC.FB050169@pipeline.ch> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:23:08 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.99999? References: <356B61CF00000112@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) <3577EB9A.55A8271A@pipeline.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Alastair Rankine wrote: -snip- > > On a slightly related issue, it sure would be nice to be able to even find > > out what's coming up in -current! > > I'm working on that ;-) It will be up somewhen on the weekend. I'll > announce it here on the list. Wow... it's more work than I thought (you guys are developing a lot of stuff!). Maybe this monday or tuesday, watch out, I'll announce it. -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 15:19:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15075 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rfcnet.com (rfcnet.com [207.227.20.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15065 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mattc@rfcnet.com) Received: (from mattc@localhost) by rfcnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03901; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:19:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mattc) Message-ID: <19980607171933.A3879@rfcnet.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:19:33 -0500 From: Matthew Cashdollar To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SunWorld Survey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i x-no-archive: yes Organization: RF Communications, Inc. http://www.rfcinc.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SunWorld has a survey about free software (or, to be politically correct, 'open source') -- you can choose FreeBSD as your favorite OS :) http://www.sun.com/sunworldonline/swol-06-1998/swol-06-readersurvey.html -- Matthew Cashdollar RF Communications, Inc. -- http://www.rfcinc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 7 15:34:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16712 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16701 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-220-186.wnck11.pacbell.net [207.214.220.186]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id PAA27576 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: FreeBSD newsletter Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:21:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9262$ab84cf60$badcd6cf@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >There's an article about the PalmPilot and FreeBSD in the >latest FreeBSD Newsletter (issue #2). You can get it in PDF >format from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/newsletter/ or >in PostScript format from ftp7.de.freebsd.org. are there any ascii versions of these stories? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 8 19:56:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09457 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9 (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA09332 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Uacmebbs@massey.ac.nz) From: Uacmebbs@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199806090255.TAA09332@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from massey.ac.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <00641-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:19:36 +1200 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:19:35 +1200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From outpost.co.nz!crh Tue Jun 9 11:08:31 1998 remote from acme.gen.nz Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0yjB1i-0028ziC; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:08:30 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:53:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Small favour requested Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Can anyone who doesn't receive the hackers list as a digest do me a minor favour and forward to me a copy of the message I recently sent to hackers regarding ddp_route kernel errors with Appletalk. Obviously the message as received by freebsd.org was severely munged and I'd like to see a relatively unexpurgated version of the message to track down what my upstream provider is doing to my outgoing mail. As I only subscribe to hackers-digest all the really interesting headers have been stripped by the time I get it. Thanks in advance. --- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 01:43:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27302 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27269 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07955 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806090843.BAA07955@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dell 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:43:27 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apparently, Dell is allowing customers to buy a PC without Windows 8) In my opinion this is a good thing if you are planning to use Windows. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 11:59:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09499 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09460 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28221; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:58:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:55:46 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's certainly getting a lot of press. See http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 12:06:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11228; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpaul) From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199806091905.MAA11228@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Dell 8) In-Reply-To: <199806090843.BAA07955@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jun 9, 98 01:43:27 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Apparently, Dell is allowing customers to buy a PC without Windows 8) > > In my opinion this is a good thing if you are planning to use Windows. > > Amancio > How did you determine this? My impression is that they always let you buy machines without Lose95/LoseNT, but only if you place the order by phone and explicitly instruct the salesdroid not to include it with the purchase, not if you try to buy something off their 'online store' on their web server. Go to www.dell.com, select their online store, then choose a system type at random and try to customize it. Scroll down to the 'Operating System' selection and check the choices they offer. Out of all the systems they list, I think only the Dell PowerEdge server line allow you to select an operating system choise of 'None.' All of the desktop machines offer you choices, but they're all M$ ones. I think that at one point you could select 'No operating system' as an OS choice, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. If Dell or Gateway or Compaq or other vendors really want to play fair, they'd do the following: 1) Allow you to choose not to order any Micro$oft OS or applications software _at_ _all_ when ordering a system, regardless of the type (desktop, server, whatever), or where the order is being placed (direct phone order or online web server). The fact that a system can be purchased without an OS should also be prominently displayed in printed or online product catalogs (many people end up buying and using Lose95 or LoseNT because they think it's the only thing available, and nobody bothers to tell them otherwise. 2) Deduct the cost of all M$ software licenses from the purchase price of the machine. If you look at Dell's online store, you'll see that if you take a machine that's configured with LoseNT or LoseNT server by default and make another OS selection, the price of the system drops. (It seems now that asking for LoseNT workstation adds about $84 to the price, versus a couple hundred dollars for LoseNT server.) However, the one time I located a Dell OptiPlex desktop configuration that allowed you to choose 'No Operating System,' I noticed that the total price of the system did not go down when I told it not to include Lose95 in the configuration. There are only a couple of ways this could happen. One possibility is that M$ is selling Lose95 licenses to companies like Dell so cheaply that Dell can simply afford to eat the cost and not bother charging customers extra whether they ask for Lose95 or not. The other possibility, which is far more likely, is that Dell is paying for the licenses in bulk and is increasing the cost of all their machines to subsidize the purchase of the licenses from M$. What this means is that customers that _don't_ buy Lose95 end up subsidizing the cost of Lose95 licenses anyway. When I buy a machine, I want to pay for the hardware that I ordered: I don't want to pay for somebody elses' Lose95 license. 3) When a customer says he doesn't want to buy Lose95 or LoseNT with a computer, the vendor is not allowed to add a Lose95 or LoseNT license sale to his books. What I'm getting at here has to do with how M$ adds up their sales figures. Basically, one of the arguments Micro$oft loves to use when trying to convince people to switch to Lose95 or LoseNT is that their software is so popular because they've sold so many units. The problem is that many of the Lose95 licenses that M$ sells are actually sold to computer vendors like Dell or Gateway or Compaq. If Dell buys X amount of Lose95 licenses for a bulk fee, they have to try and defray the cost somehow, which, as I noted in my last point, they do by jacking up the average cost of all their machines. This means that even if I explicitly ask a Dell salesdroid not to include Lose95 with a machine that I buy, and even if they ship me a machine with a blank hard disk and no OS media, I may _still_ end up contributing to M$'s total number of Lose95 licenses sold. Again, no sale means no sale. One problem here is that if Dell or whoever buys, say, 10000 Lose95 licenses, M$ gets to say that they shipped 10000 Lose95 licenses whether Dell sells them or not. This artificially inflates the 'popularity' of Lose95, which M$ then uses as a selling point. (Remember M$ doesn't care how many physical copies of the Lose95 media they sell: it's the licenses that are important.) 4) Computers and boxes shipped without any M$ software should not be festooned with "Designed for Micro$oft Lose95" stickers. If I'm not paying to use M$ software, I'm not paying to advertise it either. (I still don't know why they put these stickers on monitors.) 5) Computer vendors should not create systems that are dependent on Lose95 or LoseNT to operate correctly. I'm pretty sure that Dell hasn't ever done this, but I think Compaq has; I've heard stories about hardware that required a special initialization that could only be done via an MS-DOG or Lose95 program. Naturally, both the hardware and the programs were proprietary. This also applies to peripherals and device drivers: third party hardware vendors that only provide device driver support for Lose95 or LoseNT and don't disclose device programming information without an NDA or large licensing fee really need to have their attitudes adjusted. Anyway: if Dell really has decided to allow customers to buy _any_ of their machines (desktop, server or laptop) without Lose95, and has tried to do at least some of what I've said above, then I'd like to hear more about it. -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 17:52:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13428 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13395 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:52:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-159.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.159]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04013 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19160 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:22:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806100022.TAA19160@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:55:46 MDT." <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:22:22 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm Linux certianly is plastered all over the trade journals that arrived in the mail today. Not a word of FreeBSD. Reminds me of the "issue" with Merced (delayed) and Alpha. The press shouts, "64-bits! 64-bits!" as if Merced (future) and Alpha (today) are the only horses running. Ignoring SGI/MIPS R10000 and Apple/IBM/Motorola PowerPC, and no telling what else. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 17:52:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13513 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13436 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-159.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.159]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA03923 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:52:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19147 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:18:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806100018.TAA19147@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Dell 8) In-reply-to: Message from Bill Paul of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:05:47 PDT." <199806091905.MAA11228@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:18:08 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Paul writes: > How did you determine this? My impression is that they always let you > buy machines without Lose95/LoseNT, but only if you place the order by > phone and explicitly instruct the salesdroid not to include it with the > purchase, not if you try to buy something off their 'online store' on > their web server. Go to www.dell.com, select their online store, then > choose a system type at random and try to customize it. Scroll down to > the 'Operating System' selection and check the choices they offer. Recently I had occasion to be studying Gateway's "server" offerings on their online web store. An operating system was not included. Presumed (didn't check, wasn't interested) to be an extra cost item. There *was* an OS pop up menu to choose from. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 18:07:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16269 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16151 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA013460897440832 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:07:12 +1200 (NZST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id NAA10440 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:07:12 +1200 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16638 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:54:32 +1200 (NZST) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08241 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:54:31 +1200 (NZST) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:54:30 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Is the list still up? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yo. Haven't got anything in the past 2 days, and I'm starting to wonder.. -- Jonathan Chen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If you wish your merit to be known, acknowledge that of other people" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 18:08:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16454 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (androzani-2-188.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.95.126]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA23860; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA02129; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:08:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980610010817.ZM2128@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:08:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass "Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind?" (Jun 9, 12:55pm) References: <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 9, 12:55pm, Brett Glass wrote: > Subject: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Brett Glass It does look like it, doesn't it. The latest issue of InfoWorld has a big spread on Linux too. Don't know if it is on-line yet. But check out http://webserver.cpg.com/reviews/r1/3.4/ where OpenBSD gets a great writeup in SunExpert magazine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 18:10:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16600 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 31166 invoked from network); 10 Jun 1998 01:09:37 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 1998 01:09:37 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-164.realtime.net [205.238.146.164]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA03629; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:09:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:16:41 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: David Kelly cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <199806100022.TAA19160@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, David Kelly wrote: > Brett Glass writes: > > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm > > Linux certianly is plastered all over the trade journals that arrived > in the mail today. Not a word of FreeBSD. > > Reminds me of the "issue" with Merced (delayed) and Alpha. The press > shouts, "64-bits! 64-bits!" as if Merced (future) and Alpha (today) are > the only horses running. Ignoring SGI/MIPS R10000 and Apple/IBM/Motorola > PowerPC, and no telling what else. > Yeah, according to the FTC, I would say that FreeBSD only runs on 80% of the hardware out there. Time to exert some muscle and stomp out that remaining 20%. ;-) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 18:29:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19337 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19300; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806100128.SAA19300@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Is the list still up? In-Reply-To: from Jonathan Chen at "Jun 10, 98 12:54:30 pm" To: jonc@pinnacle.co.nz (Jonathan Chen) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Chen wrote: > Yo. > > Haven't got anything in the past 2 days, and I'm starting to wonder.. > -- > Jonathan Chen pinnacle.co.nz mail is handled (pri=10) by mail.iconz.co.nz Jun 9 01:26:26 hub sendmail[20992]: AAA20913: to=, delay=00:31:08, xdelay=00:00:07, mailer=smtp8, relay=mail.iconz.co.nz. [202.14.100.36], stat=Sent (UAA150130897380784 Message accepted for delivery) Jun 9 01:44:31 hub vmailer/smtp[27334]: 99F40C8D4: to=, relay=mail.iconz.co.nz, status=sent (250 UAA171670897381871 Message accepted for delivery) . . . Jun 9 18:08:12 hub vmailer/smtp[16396]: 9A251DFA2: to=, relay=mail.iconz.co.nz, status=sent (250 NAA015150897440891 Message accepted for delivery) Jun 9 18:09:08 hub vmailer/smtp[16359]: 9A27C8BB2: to=, relay=mail.iconz.co.nz, status=sent (250 NAA017540897440947 Message accepted for delivery) Jun 9 18:10:39 hub vmailer/smtp[16372]: 9A28E5B98: to=, relay=mail.iconz.co.nz, status=sent (250 NAA020620897441037 Message accepted for delivery) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 20:54:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11689 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11594; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15687; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806100353.UAA15687@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Bill Paul cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dell 8) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:05:47 PDT." <199806091905.MAA11228@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 20:53:46 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org About half way in this article there is a reference to Dell and Ralph Nader http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_display/0,3440,2110597,00.html Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 22:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29756 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29749 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA24673; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:49:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01164; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:31:54 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wosch) To: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD newsletter References: <01bd9262$ab84cf60$badcd6cf@eliot.pacbell.net> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 09 Jun 1998 22:31:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jack Velte"'s message of Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:21:51 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jack Velte" writes: > >There's an article about the PalmPilot and FreeBSD in the > >latest FreeBSD Newsletter (issue #2). You can get it in PDF > >format from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/newsletter/ or > >in PostScript format from ftp7.de.freebsd.org. > > are there any ascii versions of these stories? No. Adobe has a online pdf2html converter which create readable ASCII output (see www.adobe.com). -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~w/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 22:49:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29759; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA24674; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:49:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01175; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:36:18 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wosch) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wtf? References: <199806081719.KAA25953@hub.freebsd.org> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 09 Jun 1998 22:36:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler"'s message of Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Lines: 23 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] Can we block all numerical E-Mail addresses? Many spammers use addresses like 1234567890@spam.com . Wolfram "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: > Alexander Kandelaki wrote: > > > > I got the same :( > > 1 question does this list moderated ??? > > no. only freebsd-announce and freebsd-security-notifications > are moderated. i have neither the time nor the desire to > moderate the 40+m mailing lists. > > i have send mail to the responsible parties at hinet.net. > if it comes to it, we will block all emamil from hinet.net. > > jmb -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~w/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 9 23:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07083 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07073 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id IAA08421 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:39:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id IAA03958 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:38:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980610083855.A3955@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:38:55 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wtf? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199806081719.KAA25953@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Wolfram Schneider on Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:36:16PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4311 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Wolfram Schneider: > Can we block all numerical E-Mail addresses? Many spammers > use addresses like 1234567890@spam.com . Sendmail 8.9 can do that, it is described in the cf/README. I don't think VMailer does support that kind of filtering. LOCAL_CONFIG Kcheckregex regex -a@MATCH ^[0-9]+$ F{dnn} /etc/mail/domains_no_numerics SLocal_check_mail # check address against various regex checks R$* $: $>Parse0 $>3 $1i make domain canonical R$+ < @ $* $={dnn} > $* $: $(checkregex $1 $) R@MATCH $#error $: 553 Header Error /etc/mail/domains_no_numerics -=-=-=- juno.com aol.com msn.com hotmail.com usa.net compuserve.com ix.netcom.com -=-=-=- -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 07:51:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15477 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic6.pm03.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15382 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id HAA12354; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980610075023.B12274@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:50:23 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Head count for June BAFUG Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up ! I need a quick head count of those who are planing on attending tomorrow nights BAFUG meeting. This will give me an idea as to how much pizza to order. Reply to either this mailing list or my home address which is: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue... Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 12:25:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20798 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20701 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09390; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:24:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Jun 9, 98 12:55:46 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:24:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm > We can fret about it, or do something about it, with our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and can do something about it, should feel free to participate in the solution. All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 13:05:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00436 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:05:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00259; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13950; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:05:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <357EE6F3.E9BA19DA@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:05:07 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Paul CC: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dell 8) References: <199806091905.MAA11228@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Paul wrote: > 2) Deduct the cost of all M$ software licenses from the purchase price > of the machine. If you look at Dell's online store, you'll see that > if you take a machine that's configured with LoseNT or LoseNT server > by default and make another OS selection, the price of the system > drops. (It seems now that asking for LoseNT workstation adds about > $84 to the price, versus a couple hundred dollars for LoseNT server.) > However, the one time I located a Dell OptiPlex desktop configuration > that allowed you to choose 'No Operating System,' I noticed that the > total price of the system did not go down when I told it not to > include Lose95 in the configuration. > > There are only a couple of ways this could happen. One possibility > is that M$ is selling Lose95 licenses to companies like Dell so > cheaply that Dell can simply afford to eat the cost and not bother > charging customers extra whether they ask for Lose95 or not. The > other possibility, which is far more likely, is that Dell is paying > for the licenses in bulk and is increasing the cost of all their > machines to subsidize the purchase of the licenses from M$. What > this means is that customers that _don't_ buy Lose95 end up subsidizing > the cost of Lose95 licenses anyway. When I buy a machine, I want to > pay for the hardware that I ordered: I don't want to pay for somebody > elses' Lose95 license. Companies like Dell sell you a Lose95 license with every system you buy, whether you want it or not, install it or not. The only way out is to "upgrade" to a LoseNT license. This scheme is mandated by Microsoft. This is the "per-system" license the FTC is complaining about. I still don't understand why FreeBSD users want to pay for Lose95 licenses on machines they're not going to run Lose95 on! (Hint: don't buy your computers from Dell, Gateway, Compaq, et al. Find a local distributor and build your own machines). At my local wholesaler, a Win95 license bought with a motherboard or a hard disk costs $69 without hardcopy manuals. I image Microsloth discounts this considerably for companies with the volume of Dell and Gateway, so they can afford to sell it to you for $89 even with their ridiculous margins. Office 97 goes for $109 (or so). If you find a vendor that will sell you the machine without paying the Microsloth tax, you're money ahead. > 4) Computers and boxes shipped without any M$ software should not be > festooned with "Designed for Micro$oft Lose95" stickers. If I'm not > paying to use M$ software, I'm not paying to advertise it either. > (I still don't know why they put these stickers on monitors.) They're not going to do that, because they can't afford to divert 1% (or so) of their cases around the moron sticking the stickers on. They do need to make sure the stickers come off cleanly so I don't have a gummy spot on my computer after I rip the damned thing off, though. ;^) I bought a PC case last year that had an "Intel Inside" sticker on it in the box. I had to go hunt down my bottle of "Goo Gone" to get the gummy spot off. It seemed horribly inappropriate, since this was the case for my wife's AMD K5 system. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 13:35:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:35:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08149; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14017; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <357EEDDA.4787F98A@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass recently lamented: > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm John S. Dyson replied: % We can fret about it, or do something about it, with % our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but % do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and % can do something about it, should feel free to % participate in the solution. % % All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous way to make a living. I know there are several currently shipping systems with FreeBSD embedded. I'd like to write an article for ESPmag about embedding FreeBSD. If you have worked on such a system, and would like to collaborate with me, please respond directly to me. I'd like to include information about PicoBSD, if any of the principals in that would like to help. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 16:07:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15338 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00900 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:06:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:06:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199806102306.BAA00900@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD newsletter Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat you wrote (8 Jun 1998 00:36:08 +0200): > >There's an article about the PalmPilot and FreeBSD in the > >latest FreeBSD Newsletter (issue #2). You can get it in PDF > >format from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/newsletter/ or > >in PostScript format from ftp7.de.freebsd.org. > > are there any ascii versions of these stories? I took the time to convert them to HTML (and ASCII/latin-1): http://ftp7.de.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/newsletter/ These are just the barebone text, no graphics (and without the Walnut Creek ads). Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 19:01:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17577 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17559; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-197.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.197]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04868; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:01:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22523; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:43:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806110143.UAA22523@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-reply-to: Message from Wes Peters of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 MDT." <357EEDDA.4787F98A@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:43:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > > This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine > is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous > way to make a living. I wasn't interested so only scanned the article. Most of what I saw was very negative about using NT in an embedded application. Pointed out how many extra cost addons were needed to do all the little things one is supposed to be using an OS for. OTOH the only positive side to NT was the ability to use Microsoft's tools such as Visual Basic, Access, etc. That was a "positive"? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 19:30:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23298 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23166; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11699; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:29:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110229.VAA11699@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <199806110143.UAA22523@nospam.hiwaay.net> from David Kelly at "Jun 10, 98 08:43:30 pm" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:29:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly said: > Wes Peters writes: > > > > This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine > > is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous > > way to make a living. > > I wasn't interested so only scanned the article. Most of what I saw was > very negative about using NT in an embedded application. Pointed out how > many extra cost addons were needed to do all the little things one is > supposed to be using an OS for. OTOH the only positive side to NT was > the ability to use Microsoft's tools such as Visual Basic, Access, etc. > That was a "positive"? > Some people LOVE the MS development environment. I really don't though. As my grandmother always says "whatever blows your skirt up" :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 19:36:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24331; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (xeros-2-63.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.94.191]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA15788; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:35:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA06949; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:35:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611023558.ZM6948@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:35:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson" "Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind?" (Jun 10, 9:29pm) References: <199806110229.VAA11699@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------snip---------------------- > > > Some people LOVE the MS development environment. I really don't > though. As my grandmother always says "whatever blows your skirt up" :-). > And I thought my grandpappy had some funny sayings. This one I like. ;-) Frank > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from John S. Dyson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 22:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gregory.dyn.ml.org (dave@cgowave-22-127.cgocable.net [24.226.22.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22019 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@gregory.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by gregory.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18177 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: gartner group article Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Forgive me if this has been discussed- I've been out of the mix for a bit. Just wondering if anybody had any thoughts on the gartner group article linked from the FreeBSD website. (This seems worthy of a 'chat'.) I refer specifically to http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html In it they say such things as: "Unix systems at free or minimal charge will lack the performance tuning, scalability and hardware platform support to make them suitable for large commercial applications through 2002 (0.9 probability). Linux will not displace mainstream commercial Unix versions from IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Sun Microsystems and The Santa Cruz Operation in the next five years as commercial Unix vendors shift focus to Windows NT (0.8 probability)." I find the reference to lack of performance tuning and focus on NT most disturbing, but I hardly consider myself enough of an IT veteran to draw any real conclusions from this article. Any thoughts on this? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 22:34:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24346 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cia.net.au (mail.cia.net.au [203.17.36.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24337 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alastair@cia.com.au) Received: from clarence.progmatics.com.au ([203.28.49.193]) by cia.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14752 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:34:24 +1000 Received: from alastair (192.168.0.67) by clarence.progmatics.com.au (Worldmail 1.3.167); 11 Jun 1998 15:34:00 +1000 Message-ID: <357977580000006D@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) X-Sender: alastair@mail.cia.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:33:56 +1000 To: Dave From: Alastair Rankine Subject: Re: gartner group article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:25 PM 10/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html > >In it they say such things as: >"Unix systems at free or minimal charge will lack the performance >tuning, scalability and hardware platform support to make them suitable >for large commercial applications through 2002 (0.9 probability). I think the rationale here is that because free operating systems are developed by individuals, not corporations. The individual's range of available hardware, and the demands of scalability just aren't as great as for a corporation. -- [ Alastair Rankine ] [ mailto:alastair@cia.com.au ] [ http://www.cia.com.au/alastair ] [ pgp5 64E4 B67C D2B7 EEC4 63C9 AA74 F63A 9AD9 E44B 21C7 ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 10 22:52:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27160 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:52:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27153 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14841; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:51:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3580C246.162391E3@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:53:10 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been discussed- I've been out of the > mix for a bit. Just wondering if anybody had any thoughts on > the gartner group article linked from the FreeBSD website. > (This seems worthy of a 'chat'.) > I refer specifically to > http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html > > I find the reference to lack of performance tuning and focus on NT > most disturbing, but I hardly consider myself enough of an IT veteran > to draw any real conclusions from this article. > > Any thoughts on this? In the context of the original article, they may be right. While the development of SMP support in -current has been herculean, I doubt that even our intrepid -core members will have the time or machine resources to tune FreeBSD-SMP for machines with 64, 128, or 256 processors. If you could buy such a machine. ;^) Their conclusions about NT in this arena are colored a bit by Microsoft marketing hype. The 'trade press' seems far too willing to believe Microsoft has tamed the 'thousand monkeys' approach to developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" "Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 02:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25634 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:01:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25621 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-16.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.16]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id CAA10090; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Brett Glass" , Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:49:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9515$e31073c0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Subject: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? >> It's certainly getting a lot of press. See >> >> http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >>-- End of excerpt from Brett Glass > >It does look like it, doesn't it. The latest issue of InfoWorld has a big >spread on Linux too. Don't know if it is on-line yet. But check out > >http://webserver.cpg.com/reviews/r1/3.4/ where OpenBSD gets a great writeup in >SunExpert magazine. could you and brett collect the email addresses of the relevant editors? if we send SELECTIVE letters to their email, they'll listen. if we spam them with chat-spam, they'll turn off. the first step is the email addresses, eh? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 02:11:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27255 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-16.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.16]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id CAA11179; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Wes Peters" , "Dave" Cc: Subject: Re: gartner group article Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:03:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9517$c4f949a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Dave wrote: >> >> Forgive me if this has been discussed- I've been out of the >> mix for a bit. Just wondering if anybody had any thoughts on >> the gartner group article linked from the FreeBSD website. >> (This seems worthy of a 'chat'.) >> I refer specifically to >> http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html >> >In it they say such things as: >"Unix systems at free or minimal charge will lack the performance >tuning, scalability and hardware platform support to make them suitable >for large commercial applications through 2002 (0.9 probability). there is only a 10% chance notFreeBSD, FeeBSD, will succeed. 'minimal charge' implies no free unix company yet services high end accounts at $250/hour or more. > Linux will not displace mainstream commercial Unix versions from IBM, >Hewlett-Packard, Sun Microsystems and The Santa Cruz Operation in the >next five years as commercial Unix vendors shift focus to Windows NT (0.8 >probability)." i like the probabilities on these predictions. i agree with this one, too. they don't say anything about FreeBSD, though. a serious FreeBSD would hurt sco, hwp, sunw, and msft. >While the >development of SMP support in -current has been herculean this is good news. are there any programmers writing hardware neural net code? >that even our intrepid -core members will have the time or machine >resources to tune FreeBSD-SMP for machines with 64, 128, or 256 >processors. even if they were paid $400/hour? >Their conclusions about NT in this arena are colored a bit by >Microsoft marketing hype. The 'trade press' at MIT's business school, they teach NT is 100% better than anything else. but it's such a fraud. > seems far too willing >to believe Microsoft has tamed the 'thousand monkeys' approach to >developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as >to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" > >"Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." how many people actually work on the FreeBSD operating system? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 02:54:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02617 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02248 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id LAA15795; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:45:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14233; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:57:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980611105730.A13809@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:57:30 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Mike Smith , shmit@kublai.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 440BX based SMP systems References: <19980610021229.57129@kublai.com> <199806110529.WAA01089@antipodes.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806110529.WAA01089@antipodes.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:29:09PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:29:09PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > What ever happened to timing Linux kernel builds under FreeBSD? I > > still have a couple of clueless 31337 Linux weens here at work and > > I'd love to be able to tell them to use FreeBSD to compile their > > kernels. :-) > > Nobody supplied a ready-to-build Linux kernel tree for evaluation... Would be an unicum for the Ports Collection ;-) Should it be called linux-kernel or vmlinuz ? ;-)) -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 03:01:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04616 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA04593 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-16.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.16]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id DAA16403 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: Re: SunWorld Survey Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:54:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd951e$e805e5a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >SunWorld has a survey about free software (or, to be politically correct, 'open >source') -- you can choose FreeBSD as your favorite OS :) > >http://www.sun.com/sunworldonline/swol-06-1998/swol-06-readersurvey.html > >-- >Matthew Cashdollar >RF Communications, Inc. -- http://www.rfcinc.com please vote here for FreeBSD. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 03:12:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA06740 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06706; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-16.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.16]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id DAA17392; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Christoph Kukulies" Cc: , , "Gregory Hosler" , "Bernie Doehner" , "Christoph Kukulies" Subject: Re: Microsoft offering Netshow for linux Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:03:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9520$35550ba0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> can vote on by clicking on some box. use ip reverse to avoid multiple >> voting. notFreeBSD, Inc needs some nice voting software. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Errm, what, just for the record, is notFreeBSD, Inc ? Is it a word game >or just a typo? a commercial shell around FreeBSD, Inc. with cash flow and stakeholder benefits like health insurance, money, gear, stock in the later microsoft, stuff like that. 3M users initial goal, then 20% market share. 20 page plan upon request. SFBay, Tokyo, China, Europe. virtual jobs for free. 400M ipo valuation. -jack this document copyright loribeth merril 1998. removal of this copyright notice is prohibited. revision is prohibited. if you find this of use, $200 cash or $500 zero coupon bond (post dated check) is required. professional firms $10k. or 5% of your gains. trademarks are implied. redistribution is encouraged. resistance is futile. mailto:jackv@earthling.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 05:20:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 05:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02233 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 05:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA11469 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:19:43 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma011465; Thu, 11 Jun 98 08:19:13 -0400 Received: from fault.rstcorp.com (fault [206.29.49.18]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17140 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by fault.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07801; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806111217.IAA07801@fault.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NFS performance benchmarks? X-Mailer: VM 6.40 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know if there are NFS performance benchmarks available? If not, what would be a good series of tests to run to compare relative NFS performance (FreeBSD NFS server vs. Solaris NFS server)? [I looked in /usr/ports/benchmarks, but there isn't anything NFS specific -- it all seems to be either network or CPU benchmarking] Thanks Viren -- Viren R. Shah viren@rstcorp.com | "God made a few people perfect http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/ | --the rest He created right-handed" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 07:12:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24098 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23965 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15790; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:12:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <358137A8.9CE61701@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:14:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Velte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: <01bd9517$c4f949a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jack Velte wrote: > a serious FreeBSD would hurt sco, hwp, sunw, and msft. It's more likely to help HP and Sun. Once you install some FreeBSD servers, and start to learn what a GOOD system unix really is, when you need to move beyond the performance offered by FreeBSD, what're you going to go to? Neither SCO nor M$ offer *better* performance than FreeBSD, they both offer *less* performance on the same hardware. So, you scale up to Sun and HP, onto the machines where they have the most margin. Their low-end servers and workstations don't offer more performance than FreeBSD, they offer less performance for greater prices. > >While the > >development of SMP support in -current has been herculean > >that even our intrepid -core members will have the time or machine > >resources to tune FreeBSD-SMP for machines with 64, 128, or 256 > >processors. > > even if they were paid $400/hour? Not unless you can: a) get somebody to make such a machine, b) document it sufficiently that somebody else (i.e. FreeBSD Inc.) can bring up an SMP or NUMA architecture OS on it, c) buy one of them, d) let the MP guys crash the hell out of it for the next 6 - 12 months. For item a, Sequent probably has a 32-processor machine that might fit the bill. Having been familiar with their OEM support in the past, they might even fit "b" iff they're willing to give you access to their source code, bus arbitration code, etc., and their internal support team. Not likely. Items c and d aren't likely at all, unless you have a million or so lying about not doing anything, in which case you're a fool, because you could've spent it on a boat and just forget all this computer silliness. ;^) > >Their conclusions about NT in this arena are colored a bit by > >Microsoft marketing hype. The 'trade press' > > at MIT's business school, they teach NT is 100% better than anything else. > but it's such a fraud. The first myth of management is that it exists. MIT has been in the business of pumping out dickheads who don't know business processes from their asses, and get stuffed into high- paying no-productivity jobs by the good-old-boy network for 300 years. This is the pack of morons that came up with "matrix management," after all. You can't expect them to change just because of some little burp in the economy like computers. > > seems far too willing > >to believe Microsoft has tamed the 'thousand monkeys' approach to > >developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as > >to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" > > > >"Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." > > how many people actually work on the FreeBSD operating system? Rarely more than 3 to 5 on any particular feature, and often each area of expertise is covered by one particularly competent programmer, sometimes with the help of a few other accolytes. FreeBSD falls some- where between the Cathedral and the Bazaar (or Bizarre, in the case of Linux) in team philosophy. In Yourdon-speak, FreeBSD uses multiple "operating room teams" under the loose coordination of "the core team". (From the outside, it seems like Jordan-the-octopus does a lot of the coordinating, but that's an outsiders point of view. The inside view, as always, is probably greatly different and much more bloody.) Somebody oughtta "right" an article about this. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 07:24:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles322.castles.com [208.214.167.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25961 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01675; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806111317.GAA01675@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Andreas Klemm cc: Mike Smith , shmit@kublai.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 440BX based SMP systems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:57:30 +0200." <19980611105730.A13809@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:17:56 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:29:09PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > > What ever happened to timing Linux kernel builds under FreeBSD? I > > > still have a couple of clueless 31337 Linux weens here at work and > > > I'd love to be able to tell them to use FreeBSD to compile their > > > kernels. :-) > > > > Nobody supplied a ready-to-build Linux kernel tree for evaluation... > > Would be an unicum for the Ports Collection ;-) > Should it be called linux-kernel or vmlinuz ? ;-)) Just park a tarball somewhere and after Usenix I'll dink with it, unless someone running softupdates gets to it first. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 08:50:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14892 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14866 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15986; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:50:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35814EA0.7847B26E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:52:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Viren R. Shah" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NFS performance benchmarks? References: <199806111217.IAA07801@fault.rstcorp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Viren R. Shah wrote: > > Does anyone know if there are NFS performance benchmarks available? > If not, what would be a good series of tests to run to compare > relative NFS performance (FreeBSD NFS server vs. Solaris NFS server)? > [I looked in /usr/ports/benchmarks, but there isn't anything NFS > specific -- it all seems to be either network or CPU benchmarking] Are you the Viren Shah of NCWorld Magazine? I don't find any explicit NFS performance benchmarks, but have you tried running iozone or bonnie on an NFS mount? My standard test has always been to 'make world' on something relatively large and compare the times to local disk I/O. The FreeBSD kernel used to be suitable for this, but on this system it takes about 3 minutes to build. I generally recommend something with 10-minute or greater build times, so differences will be large enough to really notice. At one previous employer, where we used HP workstations to develop embedded code, we added a couple of Pentium laptops running FreeBSD to make a portable work environment for engineers going to customer sites. My partner Phil and I were highly amused, and the rest of the engineers quite astonished, to learn the laptops compiled our 600,000 lines of C/C++ code faster than our $18,000 HP workstations. These were Gateway Solo 5s with Pentium 133s, versus HP 9000/712 model 100s, both using local disk to compile and link. FreeBSD: the power to COMPILE! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 16:43:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02435 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-2-8.quick.net (josh@newport-2-8.quick.net [207.212.160.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02372 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh@newport-2-8.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-2-8.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12877 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980611164320.A12071@newport-2-8.quick.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:20 -0700 From: Josh Gilliam To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the death of freebsd-mozilla References: <199806100752.AAA03618@wartch.rih.org> <20941.897469008@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.8 In-Reply-To: <20941.897469008@time.cdrom.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> What are the chances of convincing the Mozilla people to >> try something like cvsup? Anonymous CVS is ok, but cvsup >> seems to work better for me. Are > > Small to none - cvsup isn't exactly the most easily ported > piece of software. You potentially need to port the > Modula-3 runtime environment along with it. :( I noticed cvsup is being used by the KDE project: http://www.kde.org/cvsup.html -- Josh Gilliam 5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499 Orange CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 18:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24965 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24948 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03640; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:22:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806120122.UAA03640@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: More on the death of freebsd-mozilla In-Reply-To: <19980611164320.A12071@newport-2-8.quick.net> from Josh Gilliam at "Jun 11, 98 04:43:20 pm" To: josh@quick.net (Josh Gilliam) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:22:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josh Gilliam said: > >> What are the chances of convincing the Mozilla people to > >> try something like cvsup? Anonymous CVS is ok, but cvsup > >> seems to work better for me. Are > > > > Small to none - cvsup isn't exactly the most easily ported > > piece of software. You potentially need to port the > > Modula-3 runtime environment along with it. :( > > I noticed cvsup is being used by the KDE project: > > http://www.kde.org/cvsup.html > Doesn't postgres use it also? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 18:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28616 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:43:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-36.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.36]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13096; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:43:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25896; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:52:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806120052.TAA25896@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: gartner group article In-reply-to: Message from Wes Peters of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:53:10 MDT." <3580C246.162391E3@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:52:46 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: [...] > developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as > to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" > > "Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." That belongs somewhere in /usr/share/games/fortune/*.dat -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 11 23:48:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16151 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16143; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16950; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:48:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3582210D.C84F40CB@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:49:49 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: <199806120052.TAA25896@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Wes Peters writes: > [...] > > developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as > > to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" > > > > "Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." > > That belongs somewhere in /usr/share/games/fortune/*.dat Why thank you, that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all week. I've cc'd Jordan on this message, hopefully he'll commit the change for us. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 02:58:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28667 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27452; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21054; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806120951.CAA21054@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: wcarchive sets a new record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:51:54 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wcarchive set a new one-day record yesterday. The high Linux numbers are due to Slackware Linux 3.5, which was released on Wednesday. The previous record was 326GB, so this is the first time we've exceeded 1/3 TB. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project >Dual Log Stats : Jun 12 1998 -------------------------------------------------- > > Current Record Delta > --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- > Bytes 335,131,557,140 335,131,557,140 New Record! > Files 1,077,518 1,315,689 -238,171 > FTP Bytes 309,723,743,388 309,723,743,388 New Record! > FTP Files 703,058 914,070 -211,012 > HTTP Bytes 25,407,813,752 58,081,249,072 -32,673,435,320 > HTTP Files 374,460 567,700 -193,240 > >=============================================================================== > > Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total > Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files >-------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ >/linux 95,432M 93,238M 2,194M 411,173 386,699 24,474 28.48 38.16 >/games 35,556M 35,136M 419M 11,888 10,155 1,733 10.61 1.10 >/3drealms 31,257M 30,872M 384M 14,386 13,359 1,027 9.33 1.34 >/FreeBSD 23,550M 23,491M 58M 134,352 129,154 5,198 7.03 12.47 >/simtelnet 22,362M 17,828M 4,533M 52,365 37,756 14,609 6.67 4.86 >/gamesdomain 21,175M 20,887M 288M 2,856 2,196 660 6.32 0.27 >/3dfxmania 20,933M 20,645M 287M 6,849 6,406 443 6.25 0.64 >/planetquake 18,739M 15,065M 3,674M 16,557 12,232 4,325 5.59 1.54 >/idgames2 16,844M 8,316M 8,527M 59,047 23,515 35,532 5.03 5.48 >/idgames 14,045M 12,993M 1,051M 13,864 7,198 6,666 4.19 1.29 >/demos 9,094M 8,066M 1,028M 68,572 15,586 52,986 2.71 6.36 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 03:14:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02755 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02570; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12022; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:49:49 MDT." <3582210D.C84F40CB@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:13:46 -0700 Message-ID: <12018.897646426@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm. But... I always thought the fortunes database to be something of a sacred cow. :-) - Jordan > David Kelly wrote: > > > > Wes Peters writes: > > [...] > > > developing large software projects. In fact, I'll go so far as > > > to coin "Wes Peters corollary to Brooks Law:" > > > > > > "Adding thousands of programmers to a slow program makes it slower." > > > > That belongs somewhere in /usr/share/games/fortune/*.dat > > Why thank you, that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all > week. I've cc'd Jordan on this message, hopefully he'll commit the > change for us. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 03:46:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11045 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA10917; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07134; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:44:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA19482; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:44:36 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wes Peters , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: <12018.897646426@time.cdrom.com> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 12 Jun 1998 12:44:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:13:46 -0700" Message-ID: <8767i6yk4s.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > Hmmm. But... I always thought the fortunes database to be something > of a sacred cow. :-) It's more like a mad cow, partly. :-) I have a couple of quotes I'd like to add (don't we all? ;-)). Should we just start fortunes3? What about foreign-language fortunes? tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 07:44:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22716 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgate.cadence.com (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22528 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: (from smap@localhost) by mailgate.cadence.com (8.8.5/8.6.8) id HAA09471; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> Received: from unknown(194.32.96.130) by mailgate.cadence.com via smap (mjr-v1.2) id xma897662595.009455; Fri, 12 Jun 98 07:43:15 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Duncan Barclay" To: Terry Lambert , nik@iii.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:42:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: internationalization Reply-to: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk CC: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh In-reply-to: <19980612125645.26761@iii.co.uk> References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:09:02AM +0000 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:09:02AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to > > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent > > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society > > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic > > writing systems. > > I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, I just want to > hold up the above paragraph as a shining example of why I like these > mailing lists so much :-) I agree, I tend to save more of Terry's articles for the non-computing content than those of other people (as well as saving many for the computing content of course)! Terry, how do you manage to keep all this in your head, or are you a more advanced version of the JKH Tcl script with AltaVista plug in? Duncan Tongue firmly in cheek! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 09:20:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12534 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12307 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29439; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:19:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029397; Fri Jun 12 09:19:42 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08857; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:19:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nik@iii.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, itojun@itojun.org In-Reply-To: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> from "Duncan Barclay" at Jun 12, 98 03:42:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to > > > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent > > > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society > > > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic > > > writing systems. > > > > I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, I just want to > > hold up the above paragraph as a shining example of why I like these > > mailing lists so much :-) > > I agree, I tend to save more of Terry's articles for the > non-computing content than those of other people (as well as saving > many for the computing content of course)! I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered or offended... I thought that the information density of Kanji was relevent. ;-). > Terry, how do you manage to keep all this in your head, or are you a > more advanced version of the JKH Tcl script with AltaVista plug in? No one can rival Jordan... he's a much better humorist than I will probably ever be. Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start on the history and biography sections. Thankfully, more science fiction arrived before I ran out of biographies. For scale, I personally own around 3500 books which I have read, and very few of them overlap with what was in the library at the time. I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do it with a book instead of a television. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 11:04:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03576 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03461 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07350; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:02:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25291; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806121802.LAA25291@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 12, 98 04:19:35 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, tlambert@primenet.com, nik@iii.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, itojun@itojun.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Terry Lambert: > > > > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to > > > > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent > > > > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society > > > > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic > > > > writing systems. > > > I've never consider this before or read this before, but it seems likely given the culture of ancient (imperial) China. If you examine ancient Egyptian society you'll find parallels. The ruling, educated classes-- including the scribes--didn not want the hieroglyphs to be readily understood. If `everyone' could read; if everyone had general access to knowledge and information there would have been major upsets. --Of course change was inevitable, and lookit what's happened here in the States: a large minority can't read; don't give a damn about it; would rather park themselves in front of a television and switch off whatever cortical neurons were left. gary kline PS: my ppp link to thought.org broke an hour ago so I've resub's to -hardware from this addr. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 12:44:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26233 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA26069 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ykZi2-0001Vz-00; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:41:58 +0100 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ykXsg-0005Lr-00; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:44:50 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:44:50 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: internationalization Cc: nik@iii.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, itojun@itojun.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Jun-98 Terry Lambert wrote: >> > > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to >> > > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent >> > > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society >> > > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic >> > > writing systems. >> > >> > I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, I just want to >> > hold up the above paragraph as a shining example of why I like these >> > mailing lists so much :-) >> >> I agree, I tend to save more of Terry's articles for the >> non-computing content than those of other people (as well as saving >> many for the computing content of course)! > > I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered or offended... I thought > that the information density of Kanji was relevent. ;-). > It was meant as a compliment, and I do keep ypur filesystem stuff too...:-) >> Terry, how do you manage to keep all this in your head, or are you a >> more advanced version of the JKH Tcl script with AltaVista plug in? > > No one can rival Jordan... he's a much better humorist than I will > probably ever be. > > Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I > actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie > Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start > on the history and biography sections. I think I almost read all the SiFi too when I was younger (much smaller local community library). So I started on the real science, lots of astronomy and stuff. Most was a bit too far above my head at the time (about 12 to 14). I especially remember a little white book which talked about trains and clocks and gravity etc. I could cope with the first few chapters (even now I can only get through the first few of the General Relativity chapters) but I had problem with what I thought were complex square roots. In the book the square roots in the Lorentz transforms were printed using a capital I as 1 (e.g. sqrt (I-v^2/c^2)). I had heard that I was to do with complex numbers and I was really confused...What's nice is that I bought a re-print of the same edition about a year ago. > Thankfully, more science fiction > arrived before I ran out of biographies. For scale, I personally own > around 3500 books which I have read, and very few of them overlap with > what was in the library at the time. > > I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do > it with a book instead of a television. 8-). > I have sort of started a small collection of victorian encylcopedias, great fun, and give a great historical perspective on engineering! Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 13:59:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12505 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12310 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28419; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:58:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028362; Fri Jun 12 13:58:06 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17113; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:57:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806122057.NAA17113@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: nick.hibma@jrc.it Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:57:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Nick Hibma" at Jun 12, 98 08:08:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... Redirected to -chat ... ] > > Discussions of highly technical issues require *precise* language. > > This is why all highly technical fields develop their own jargon. > > Highly technical, as in: ilk, bigotry, premise? :-) Nope, that was an > excursion into the land of poetry and was definitely not within the > jargon of the topic being discussed. "Premise" has specific connotations in formal logic. I would have a hard time finding a word adequate to replace "bigotry" or "bigot", and the bias on group membership/non-membership it was intended to imply. The use of the word "ilk" is much less formal, but I'm not the one who used that particular word. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 16:36:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14770 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14677 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14234; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:35:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25440; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806122335.QAA25440@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806122057.NAA17113@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 12, 98 08:57:54 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nick.hibma@jrc.it, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Terry Lambert: > [ ... Redirected to -chat ... ] > > > > Discussions of highly technical issues require *precise* language. > > > This is why all highly technical fields develop their own jargon. > > > > Highly technical, as in: ilk, bigotry, premise? :-) Nope, that was an > > excursion into the land of poetry and was definitely not within the > > jargon of the topic being discussed. > > "Premise" has specific connotations in formal logic. > > I would have a hard time finding a word adequate to replace "bigotry" > or "bigot", and the bias on group membership/non-membership it was > intended to imply. > > The use of the word "ilk" is much less formal, but I'm not the one > who used that particular word. 8-). > This is the message I was answering mid-morning when something happened to my ppp link. `bigot|bigotry' Terry just described. `bias' may be s simpler word, tho not by much. I believe that a bigot referred to a (big) man with a mustache: someone who is intolerant. Spanish, I believe. `ilk' has Scots roots and means `type' or `kind' . The last one the Nick questioned was `grasp' I seem to recall. I think I used to to mean apprehend, understand. `grasp' has middle-English roots. Okay, I'll stay away from them-thar big (or non-standard) words. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 18:29:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04895 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04881 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19421; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:29:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA00614; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980613032859.30210@follo.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:28:59 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: CHOI Junho , Chen Hsiung Chan Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from CHOI Junho on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:12:39PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:12:39PM +0900, CHOI Junho wrote: > That's also true for Korean. :) > We are somehow different from Japanese and Chinese, because generally > we are using almost only Hangul glyphs in Computers(usually chatting, > mail, short articles not serious). But Hanja - aka Kanji in Japanese - > is used widely for Office, Newspapers, Books, formal articles, etc. We > learned Hanja in middle and high school. > > CJK people can't live without Hanja|Kanji|Hanzi :) Write English. Eivind, with Norwegian as native language (but mostly writing English). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 21:37:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26013 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26003; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18340; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:35:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <358201A3.CD8FD4D8@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:35:47 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Gellekum CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: <12018.897646426@time.cdrom.com> <8767i6yk4s.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas Gellekum wrote: > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > Hmmm. But... I always thought the fortunes database to be something > > of a sacred cow. :-) > > It's more like a mad cow, partly. :-) > > I have a couple of quotes I'd like to add (don't we all? ;-)). Should > we just start fortunes3? What about foreign-language fortunes? Does it still include "Never play leapfrog with a unicorn" and "Do something big today, fuck a giant?" -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 21:49:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27440 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27432 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA01123; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:47:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980612154747.58903@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:47:47 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Seen on a Compaq Proliant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm currently in Austin TX working up to a database benchmark on various Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq platforms, and we're just setting up a Proliant 6500 machine with UnixWare (4xPPro 200 MHz, 1 GB memory). For some reason, they decided to max out the main memory, and added another 1.25 GB. The kernel loaded and then said "too little memory to boot SMP". We took out 500 MB and it booted fine :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 21:53:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28092 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28079 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA01083; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:31:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980612153139.08827@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:31:39 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , phil grainger Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review References: <35813CCF.84C9FAE2@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <35813CCF.84C9FAE2@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 08:35:59AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 June 1998 at 8:35:59 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > I fear that eventually the only computer magazines on the planet will be > PC World, which is about as content-free as you can get, and Gamers World. > At that point, I'll just have to leave. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Sounds like it happened. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 21:57:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28879; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA01059; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:21:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980612152145.07177@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:21:45 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith , Julian Elischer Cc: Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix Reply-To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199806111957.MAA00464@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199806111957.MAA00464@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:57:20PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat) On Thu, 11 June 1998 at 12:57:20 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >>> (apologies for those not interested but i don't know a better place >>> to ask) >>> >>> for the upcoming usenix, i am supposed to arrive in New Orleans on >>> tuesday 16th at 18:46 with flight AA2016 -- i wouldn't mind meeting >>> with other FreeBSD-ers, either at the airport or for dinner. if >>> someone is interested, please email me. >>> >> I get in at 17:14 Tues >> United airlines 372 >> (about 90 minutes earlier) >> is your flight a domestic leg or direct from Italy? >> where are you staying? >> >> are there others coming in at around this time? > > The party from Walnut Creek are arriving 16:25 tuesday on Southwest > 679. I'd be happy to hang around a couple hours to collect some more > people for a party, unless there's a better venue to do this at. > > (We may have a pile of stuff with us that we want to dump before going > out) I'm now confirmed arriving on Thursday the 12th on a Continental flight from Houston. I don't suppose anybody else will be as late. I'm staying at the Meridien (only place I could get). I suppose I'll get there round 7:30 pm. If somebody can give me an idea of what's going on and where to go, I'll go there (destinations in New Orleans only, please :-) I'll be available 512-750-3060 (mobile) from now until the end of next week. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 22:22:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01708 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01692; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09605; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd009601; Sat Jun 13 05:15:35 1998 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:15:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Mike Smith , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix In-Reply-To: <19980612152145.07177@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org what year are you talking about?? thursday the 12th? it's friday the 12th today (13th where you are) On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > (following up to -chat) > > On Thu, 11 June 1998 at 12:57:20 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > >>> (apologies for those not interested but i don't know a better place > >>> to ask) > >>> > >>> for the upcoming usenix, i am supposed to arrive in New Orleans on > >>> tuesday 16th at 18:46 with flight AA2016 -- i wouldn't mind meeting > >>> with other FreeBSD-ers, either at the airport or for dinner. if > >>> someone is interested, please email me. > >>> > >> I get in at 17:14 Tues > >> United airlines 372 > >> (about 90 minutes earlier) > >> is your flight a domestic leg or direct from Italy? > >> where are you staying? > >> > >> are there others coming in at around this time? > > > > The party from Walnut Creek are arriving 16:25 tuesday on Southwest > > 679. I'd be happy to hang around a couple hours to collect some more > > people for a party, unless there's a better venue to do this at. > > > > (We may have a pile of stuff with us that we want to dump before going > > out) > > I'm now confirmed arriving on Thursday the 12th on a Continental > flight from Houston. I don't suppose anybody else will be as late. > I'm staying at the Meridien (only place I could get). I suppose I'll > get there round 7:30 pm. If somebody can give me an idea of what's > going on and where to go, I'll go there (destinations in New Orleans > only, please :-) I'll be available 512-750-3060 (mobile) from now > until the end of next week. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 22:26:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02190 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02166 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 16020 invoked from network); 13 Jun 1998 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 1998 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-208.realtime.net [204.96.0.208]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA01026; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:25:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:32:03 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Greg Lehey cc: Wes Peters , phil grainger , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-Reply-To: <19980612153139.08827@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, 12 June 1998 at 8:35:59 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > I fear that eventually the only computer magazines on the planet will be > > PC World, which is about as content-free as you can get, and Gamers World. > > At that point, I'll just have to leave. ;^) > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Sounds like it happened. > Nah! There's Cruising World, lots of great sailboats, fantastic places, Hey! Great Barrier Reef... No, wait, that book Heavy Weather Sailing, there was a chapter on "the ultimate wave"... OOhhh Nooooo... I'll stay here ;-) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 22:30:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02787 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02704 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18426; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35820E51.A82EFEF1@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:29:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Terry, how do you manage to keep all this in your head, or are you a > > more advanced version of the JKH Tcl script with AltaVista plug in? > > No one can rival Jordan... he's a much better humorist than I will > probably ever be. When he's trying to be. Unintentionally, you rival the best -- Mark Twain, etc. > Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I > actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie > Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start > on the history and biography sections. Thankfully, more science fiction > arrived before I ran out of biographies. For scale, I personally own > around 3500 books which I have read, and very few of them overlap with > what was in the library at the time. > > I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do > it with a book instead of a television. 8-). Hear hear! Terry and I were fortunate to end up involved in a small but close group of people who were unafraid to be bright and outspoken, and unashamed of being quite a few clicks brighter than anyone around us. Surprisingly enough, only a couple really fit the classical "nerd" mold. I even managed to drag the lot of them to a foreign-language film once, though I paid dearly for it for several months afterward. Of course, we did meet to go to the movies on Friday night at the computer lab in the basement of the Tech Ed building, but that was mostly because it was a convenient place to meet and several in the group had keys in case the place was locked up. These Friday night gatherings were a 90-mile drive from work for me, but I usually got to ride half of it with my brother who was the leader of the group by virtue of being the oldest and biggest, and people just naturally fall in step behind Johnnie. Even Terry! ;^) Terry, we gotta have a labrat reunion one of these days. YOU get to talk Johnnie into flying up for it, though. He's converted over to the darkside, and is hacking on Linux for PowerPC these days. Seems somebody gave him an entire ROOM of PowerStack servers to play with... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 22:38:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03667 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03529 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18441; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:37:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3582102D.10261FA@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:37:49 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Duncan Barclay CC: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay wrote: > > > > I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do > > it with a book instead of a television. 8-). > > > > I have sort of started a small collection of victorian encylcopedias, great > fun, and give a great historical perspective on engineering! It'd probably look great alongside Terry's archive of Amiga documentation, and my complete bookshelf of Abacus Atari ST programming books. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 22:51:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04616 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04590 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18466; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:51:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3582134B.9A76CD3B@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:51:07 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kenagy CC: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kenagy wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 June 1998 at 8:35:59 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > I fear that eventually the only computer magazines on the planet will be > > > PC World, which is about as content-free as you can get, and Gamers World. > > > At that point, I'll just have to leave. ;^) > > > > > > -- > > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Sounds like it happened. > > > Nah! There's Cruising World, lots of great sailboats, fantastic places, Yeah, did you like the article about "2000: the ultimate cruising year?" I'm planning now to sell the house and buy a nice Morgan 36 fall '99, and just cut out. Party on the "date line", Jan 1. America Cup in NZ, Jan- Apr, then off to Sydney for the Olympics. Then return home the long way, via CapeTown and Tenerife. ;^) Of course, I'm going to need a good generator to power that 21" monitor, and a LeoSat PPP link. Can't miss out on FreeBSD chat while cruising the world, can I? > Hey! Great Barrier Reef... No, wait, that book Heavy Weather Sailing, > there was a chapter on "the ultimate wave"... OOhhh Nooooo... > > I'll stay here ;-) I get Sailing World, too, since I own a race boat. Ever surfed a J/22? Not possible to have more fun with your clothes on. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 12 23:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06415 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-220-172.snfc21.pacbell.net [207.214.220.172]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id XAA24802; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:18:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Duncan Barclay" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: , , Subject: Re: internationalization Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9647$bd5a5460$LocalHost@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On 12-Jun-98 Terry Lambert wrote: >>> > > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to >>> > > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent >>> > > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society >>> > > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic >>> > > writing systems. >>> > >>> > I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, I just want to >>> > hold up the above paragraph as a shining example of why I like these >>> > mailing lists so much :-) >>> >>> I agree, I tend to save more of Terry's articles for the >>> non-computing content than those of other people (as well as saving >>> many for the computing content of course)! >> >> I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered or offended... I thought >> that the information density of Kanji was relevent. ;-). while agreeing that the information density of Kanji is low (or high, depending how you measure it -- you can say more with fewer characters, anyway), i disagree it was the need to control information. languages evolve and grow and aren't planned [much]. they may have had a lot of cruft over the system to separate "high class" from "lower classes" (like german and old english), but i can't really believe it was planned to hold the peasants down. enough was already holding chinese peasants down... >>> Terry, how do you manage to keep all this in your head, or are you a >>> more advanced version of the JKH Tcl script with AltaVista plug in? >> >> No one can rival Jordan... he's a much better humorist than I will >> probably ever be. boy, jordan can be funny sometimes. it's hard to respond to some of jordan's postings because no response can even come close. >> Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I >> actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie >> Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start >> on the history and biography sections. > >I think I almost read all the SiFi too when I was younger (much smaller me too. dr timothy leary said SF was very dangerous mind altering stuff. be careful out there! :-) -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 01:01:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15196 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jazz.snu.ac.kr (jazz.snu.ac.kr [147.46.59.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15183 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr) Received: (from junker@localhost) by jazz.snu.ac.kr (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA27718; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:55:12 +0900 (KST) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Chen Hsiung Chan , Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> <19980613032859.30210@follo.net> From: CHOI Junho Date: 13 Jun 1998 16:55:11 +0900 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:28:59 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:12:39PM +0900, CHOI Junho wrote: > > That's also true for Korean. :) > > We are somehow different from Japanese and Chinese, because generally > > we are using almost only Hangul glyphs in Computers(usually chatting, > > mail, short articles not serious). But Hanja - aka Kanji in Japanese - > > is used widely for Office, Newspapers, Books, formal articles, etc. We > > learned Hanja in middle and high school. > > > > CJK people can't live without Hanja|Kanji|Hanzi :) > > Write English. Yes I will, but I don't want to write some loveletter in English to my lover unless she is talking to me English :) > Eivind, with Norwegian as native language (but mostly writing > English). -- ----Cool FreeBSD!----MSX Forever!---J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!---- CHOI Junho http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ., ROK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 02:23:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21222 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21088; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA25963; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806130919.CAA25963@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new wcarchive traffic record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:19:21 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Another new record for wcarchive. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: root@wcarchive.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25862 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id BAA25531 for ftp-stats; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" Message-Id: <199806130834.BAA25531@wcarchive.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1998/06/13 Dual Log Stats : Jun 13 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 346,653,198,615 346,653,198,615 New Record! Files 1,149,153 1,315,689 -166,536 FTP Bytes 318,296,186,416 318,296,186,416 New Record! FTP Files 767,359 914,070 -146,711 HTTP Bytes 28,357,012,199 58,081,249,072 -29,724,236,873 HTTP Files 381,794 567,700 -185,906 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /linux 97,852M 95,262M 2,590M 461,739 433,832 27,907 28.23 40.18 /3drealms 51,645M 51,247M 398M 13,322 12,366 956 14.90 1.16 /games 25,451M 25,146M 305M 11,143 9,600 1,543 7.34 0.97 /simtelnet 24,365M 20,562M 3,802M 46,431 32,036 14,395 7.03 4.04 /planetquake 22,563M 17,041M 5,521M 18,384 12,535 5,849 6.51 1.60 /gamesdomain 20,532M 20,341M 191M 2,665 2,136 529 5.92 0.23 /FreeBSD 20,385M 20,277M 108M 170,317 160,056 10,261 5.88 14.82 /3dfxmania 18,545M 18,416M 128M 6,149 5,845 304 5.35 0.54 /idgames2 17,648M 7,498M 10,149M 55,123 18,935 36,188 5.09 4.80 /idgames 13,647M 12,474M 1,173M 14,110 7,256 6,854 3.94 1.23 /demos 7,882M 6,960M 921M 62,996 14,041 48,955 2.27 5.48 /audio 5,974M 5,966M 7M 18,357 18,199 158 1.72 1.60 /artpacks 2,371M 2,224M 146M 8,241 3,899 4,342 0.68 0.72 /cnet 2,262M 2,262M 0M 1,286 1,247 39 0.65 0.11 /XFree86 2,012M 2,010M 2M 2,996 2,881 115 0.58 0.26 /unreal 1,949M 1,845M 104M 3,249 2,474 775 0.56 0.28 /ARCHIVE 1,460M 1,460M 0M 950 950 0 0.42 0.08 /sac 1,246M 1,221M 24M 2,603 2,375 228 0.36 0.23 /dresden 1,000M 961M 38M 3,057 1,976 1,081 0.29 0.27 /USR/LOCAL/WWW 703M 0M 703M 120,607 0 120,607 0.20 10.50 /os2 524M 513M 11M 2,070 1,883 187 0.15 0.18 /beos 428M 426M 1M 1,860 1,834 26 0.12 0.16 /tex 406M 297M 109M 4,004 1,450 2,554 0.12 0.35 /japanese 391M 330M 60M 1,517 462 1,055 0.11 0.13 /gt 390M 384M 5M 136 70 66 0.11 0.01 /languages 375M 336M 38M 1,592 362 1,230 0.11 0.14 /delphi 356M 80M 275M 19,998 1,130 18,868 0.10 1.74 /infozip 346M 76M 270M 11,636 409 11,227 0.10 1.01 /security 334M 316M 17M 1,404 1,090 314 0.10 0.12 /gutenberg 330M 59M 270M 904 254 650 0.10 0.08 /gnu 324M 294M 30M 539 241 298 0.09 0.05 /unixfreeware 283M 250M 33M 650 561 89 0.08 0.06 /abuse 266M 265M 1M 170 149 21 0.08 0.01 /games_patches 243M 0M 243M 1,111 29 1,082 0.07 0.10 /X11 238M 232M 6M 464 273 191 0.07 0.04 ~w8sdz 226M 0M 226M 37,875 0 37,875 0.07 3.30 /povray 190M 146M 44M 1,051 717 334 0.06 0.09 /perl 154M 121M 33M 3,398 2,675 723 0.04 0.30 /delphideli 154M 153M 0M 676 666 10 0.04 0.06 /avalon 148M 148M 0M 1,670 1,640 30 0.04 0.15 /novell 144M 144M 0M 573 568 5 0.04 0.05 /garbo 99M 91M 8M 577 417 160 0.03 0.05 /bsd-sources 93M 91M 2M 145 86 59 0.03 0.01 /cdrom 86M 26M 60M 1,448 431 1,017 0.02 0.13 /asme 77M 11M 65M 1,201 138 1,063 0.02 0.10 /png 62M 1M 60M 14,733 52 14,681 0.02 1.28 /java 58M 57M 0M 322 159 163 0.02 0.03 /x2ftp 56M 15M 41M 563 178 385 0.02 0.05 /mozilla 45M 45M 0M 25 14 11 0.01 0.00 /gus 44M 40M 3M 125 97 28 0.01 0.01 /irc 42M 34M 7M 287 169 118 0.01 0.02 /tomahawk 27M 26M 0M 168 139 29 0.01 0.01 /internet 23M 7M 16M 1,097 212 885 0.01 0.10 /algorithms 22M 11M 10M 4,367 2,346 2,021 0.01 0.38 /hamradio 19M 14M 5M 671 264 407 0.01 0.06 ~mikel 16M 0M 16M 20 0 20 0.00 0.00 /obi 15M 1M 13M 722 71 651 0.00 0.06 /tcl 15M 14M 0M 79 27 52 0.00 0.01 ~murray 13M 0M 13M 225 0 225 0.00 0.02 /mac 13M 12M 1M 74 32 42 0.00 0.01 /MacSciTech 8M 1M 7M 76 14 62 0.00 0.01 /NetBSD 8M 5M 2M 184 146 38 0.00 0.02 /math 8M 2M 5M 372 58 314 0.00 0.03 /sde 7M 2M 4M 212 25 187 0.00 0.02 /PUB 6M 6M 0M 2,929 2,679 250 0.00 0.25 /netlib 5M 4M 1M 191 76 115 0.00 0.02 /python 4M 2M 1M 172 26 146 0.00 0.01 /ARCHIVE-INFO 2M 2M 0M 402 348 54 0.00 0.03 /4cust 1M 0M 1M 35 4 31 0.00 0.00 ~lvinci 1M 0M 1M 166 0 166 0.00 0.01 ~mr2 1M 0M 1M 136 0 136 0.00 0.01 ~r3cgm 712k 0k 712k 73 0 73 0.00 0.01 /viseng 561k 9k 552k 112 2 110 0.00 0.01 /unix-c 470k 345k 125k 44 18 26 0.00 0.00 ~radman 14k 0k 14k 17 0 17 0.00 0.00 /ETC 10k 10k 0k 29 29 0 0.00 0.00 ~jafar1 9k 0k 9k 62 0 62 0.00 0.01 ~brian 5k 0k 5k 34 0 34 0.00 0.00 /epic 4k 0k 4k 11 0 11 0.00 0.00 /ghostscript 2k 0k 2k 5 0 5 0.00 0.00 ~akiy 2k 0k 2k 19 0 19 0.00 0.00 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 81 archives 346,653M 318,296M 28,356M 1,149,153 767,359 381,794 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 767,359 564,630 202,729 Hits (HTTP) 381,794 308,788 73,006 Hits (combo) 1,149,153 873,419 275,734 Bytes (FTP) 318,296,186,416 253,381,845,486 64,914,340,930 Bytes (HTTP) 28,357,012,199 18,725,837,524 9,631,174,675 Bytes (combo) 346,653,198,615 272,107,683,010 74,545,515,605 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 4,560,643 16,938,914 198,835,208 Hits (HTTP) 2,352,483 9,263,668 145,100,255 Hits (combo) 6,913,126 26,202,582 343,935,473 Bytes (FTP) 1,965,798,618,307 7,601,455,364,591 79,923,833,293,584 Bytes (HTTP) 150,167,655,652 561,775,125,733 9,460,627,579,946 Bytes (combo) 2,115,966,273,959 8,163,230,490,324 89,384,460,873,430 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 02:47:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23777 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23770; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21743; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Mike Smith , Julian Elischer , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:21:45 CDT." <19980612152145.07177@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:25 -0700 Message-ID: <21739.897731245@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm now confirmed arriving on Thursday the 12th on a Continental > flight from Houston. I don't suppose anybody else will be as late. > I'm staying at the Meridien (only place I could get). I suppose I'll > get there round 7:30 pm. If somebody can give me an idea of what's The plan for Thursday is roughly as follows: 2:30pm: Go heckle jkh as he attempts to speak about FreeBSD for a full hour and a half (damn invited talks!). 6:30pm: File into the FreeBSD BOF room for a larger panel discussion with the members of FreeBSD-core who will be at the conference. The BOF is for an hour, after which we will be going out to eat with the various people who are interested. I guess one of us can try to call you on your mobile at that point and let you know where we're eating since I suspect that you'll be arriving just as the BOF is finishing up. No firm arrangements have been made as to where we'll eat, but I expect us to know that information by at least 8:00pm. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 02:48:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24077 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23778; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09129; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:44:50 +0200 (CEST) To: dg@root.com cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new wcarchive traffic record In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:19:21 PDT." <199806130919.CAA25963@implode.root.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:44:49 +0200 Message-ID: <9127.897731089@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199806130919.CAA25963@implode.root.com>, David Greenman writes: > Another new record for wcarchive. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > >Dual Log Stats : Jun 13 1998 -------------------------------------------------- > > Current Record Delta > --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- > Bytes 346,653,198,615 346,653,198,615 New Record! 32mbit/sec, not bad... -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 04:15:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06265 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06178; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26217; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806131109.EAA26217@implode.root.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new wcarchive traffic record In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:44:49 +0200." <9127.897731089@critter.freebsd.dk> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:09:29 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >32mbit/sec, not bad... ...about 45-50Mbps for most of the day, peaking at 55Mbps, reducing to about 30-35Mbps at night. The numbers in the stats are the total of the files transfered (as opposed to the bits on the wire), so the actual 24hr average output rate is a bit higher than the 32Mbps you mentioned above - it's about 44Mbps. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 06:16:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16105 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16060 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07537; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:15:55 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA08665; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:15:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980613151553.10882@follo.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:15:53 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gartner group article References: <12018.897646426@time.cdrom.com> <8767i6yk4s.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> <358201A3.CD8FD4D8@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <358201A3.CD8FD4D8@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:35:47PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:35:47PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Thomas Gellekum wrote: > > > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > > > Hmmm. But... I always thought the fortunes database to be something > > > of a sacred cow. :-) > > > > It's more like a mad cow, partly. :-) > > > > I have a couple of quotes I'd like to add (don't we all? ;-)). Should > > we just start fortunes3? What about foreign-language fortunes? > > Does it still include "Never play leapfrog with a unicorn" and "Do > something big today, fuck a giant?" (Slightly edited output - cut the prefixes to fit 80 columns) eivind(bitbox)--% grep leapfrog.\*unicorn /usr/src/games/fortune/datfiles/* fortunes:A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn. fortunes2:A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn. fortunes2:A truly wise woman never plays leapfrog with a unicorn. eivind(bitbox)--% grep fuck.\*giant /usr/src/games/fortune/datfiles/* fortunes-o.real:Do something big -- fuck a giant fortunes2-o:Do something big -- fuck a giant. Was it really necessary to ask? :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 06:19:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16433 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16428; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id PAA22346; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:15:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27601; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:09:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980613150912.B24776@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:09:12 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:24:33PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:24:33PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Brett Glass said: > > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm > > > We can fret about it, or do something about it, with > our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but > do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and > can do something about it, should feel free to > participate in the solution. > > All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. Right, Andre Oppermann and I made an excellent article about FreeBSD 2.2.6 and future developement for the biggest German PC computermagazine, C't. Contains kernel tuning tips and such. Will be available soon (maybe No 15). -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 06:56:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19810 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.140.3]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA353; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:54:21 +0200 Message-ID: <358284E4.4A6A8CD@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:55:48 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Seen on a Compaq Proliant References: <19980612154747.58903@papillon.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > I'm currently in Austin TX working up to a database benchmark on > various Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq platforms, and we're just setting up > a Proliant 6500 machine with UnixWare (4xPPro 200 MHz, 1 GB memory). > For some reason, they decided to max out the main memory, and added > another 1.25 GB. The kernel loaded and then said "too little memory > to boot SMP". We took out 500 MB and it booted fine :-) Do you have any chance to run -current on it? *smile* -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 07:56:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27087 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.axess.com (root@mail.axess.com [204.19.206.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27064 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ppawel@axess.com) Received: from ppawel (ppp-4.axess.com [204.19.207.4]) by mail.axess.com (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA18870 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:58:24 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980613105236.007f3100@mail.axess.com> X-Sender: ppawel@mail.axess.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:52:36 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Peter D. Pawelek" Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <19980613150912.B24776@klemm.gtn.com> References: <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:24:33PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> Brett Glass said: >> > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See >> > >> > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm >> > >> We can fret about it, or do something about it, with >> our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but >> do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and >> can do something about it, should feel free to >> participate in the solution. >> >> All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. > In fact, it's just grown by one...me. :) I've just jumped ship from Linux (Slackware user for 3 years) to FreeBSD since I fear that the Linux 'community' is starting to balkanize (ie. RedHat's largely divisive strategy of 'market' domination and de-standardization) and will likely degenerate into a muddled anarchy within a few years. I've also grown tired of the core of Linux users who evangelize the gospel according to GNU. I don't want to this to turn into some sort of advocacy flame thread, but I did want to address the statement above that FreeBSD is indeed not shrinking. More and more people like me are going to discover FreeBSD as a more appealing alternative to Linux (ie. a more congenial, low key community, a more stable OS, etc. etc.). I think a lot of (clueful) people are going to discover FreeBSD by way of Linux by way of Win95/98. I've been running 2.2.6 for three days now and I've already reaped some serious benefits: Slack 3.4 wouldn't recognize my new 33.6 GVC modem, but with FreeBSD I was able to instantly tell the kernel the correct address and IRQ..now it works like a charm (I'm sure this is somehow possible under Linux, but try finding out how...a Linux kernel config will just ask for the COM port)! As well, setting up PPP was trivial under 2.2.6, and I've noticed a DEFINITE improvement in stability in this area (under Linux, Netscape would routinely hang in a very ugly manner...this hasn't happened once under FreeBSD). Anyway, I'm confident that FreeBSD's fortunes are on the rise and that's why I've hitched on for the ride! ;) Peter Pawelek (ppawel@axess.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 11:33:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19375 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fos.doriath.org (port5.dialin.biu.ac.il [132.70.12.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19232 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by fos.doriath.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19729; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:28:49 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) X-Authentication-Warning: fos.doriath.org: mellon set sender to mellon@pobox.com using -f Message-ID: <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:28:37 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:19:35PM +0000 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Terry Lambert, were spotted writing this on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:19:35PM +0000: > Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I > actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie > Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start > on the history and biography sections. Thankfully, more science fiction > arrived before I ran out of biographies. For scale, I personally own > around 3500 books which I have read, and very few of them overlap with > what was in the library at the time. > > I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do > it with a book instead of a television. 8-). I definitely agree, but I do wonder at the choice of SciFi as the main reading material (perhaps it isn't in your case, but it is in case of most of reading programmers and hackers I know). It always struck me as something weird that so many otherwise very intelligent people, who are able to create amazingly clever and beautiful algorithms/programs/OSes, spend so much of their time reading essentially trashy literature, not much different in its average quality from detective stories or paperback romance novels. They can explain to you subtle details of VM architecture, or tell you the plots of all William Gibson novels, but ask them about Flaubert or T.S.Eliott or Cortasar or Chaucer or Pushkin or Italo Calvino and you mostly get blank looks in return. Ah, SciFi. There are so few really good authors and books in it, books that could really be considered real literature. Besides, many of those remain much less known than better-selling trash. This is especially true, I would say, in the US, in which readers usually pay little or no attention to non-American authors. For example, America has, by and large, missed the genius of Stanislaw Lem, who is perhaps the greatest SciFi author currently alive, certainly in the Top 5, if you ask me. Regards, Anatoly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 12:14:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24334 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24301 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14882; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:14:32 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA11009; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:14:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980613211430.51924@follo.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:14:30 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Anatoly Vorobey , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:28:37PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:28:37PM +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You, Terry Lambert, were spotted writing this on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:19:35PM +0000: > > Some people watch television; I read. A lot. At one point in time, I > > actually ran out of science fiction books to read at my local Carnegie > > Free Library (the Weber County Library at the time), and had to start > > on the history and biography sections. Thankfully, more science fiction > > arrived before I ran out of biographies. For scale, I personally own > > around 3500 books which I have read, and very few of them overlap with > > what was in the library at the time. > > > > I think people should read more; if you're going to be antisocial, do > > it with a book instead of a television. 8-). > > I definitely agree, but I do wonder at the choice of SciFi as the main > reading material (perhaps it isn't in your case, but it is in case of > most of reading programmers and hackers I know). It always struck me as > something weird that so many otherwise very intelligent people, who > are able to create amazingly clever and beautiful algorithms/programs/OSes, > spend so much of their time reading essentially trashy literature, not > much different in its average quality from detective stories or paperback > romance novels. They can explain to you subtle details of VM architecture, > or tell you the plots of all William Gibson novels, but ask them about > Flaubert or T.S.Eliott or Cortasar or Chaucer or Pushkin or Italo Calvino > and you mostly get blank looks in return. I believe you're missing the point of SF[1]. The point isn't to see how many layers of allegories and symbols one can create, or how clever one can be with words. The point is to evoke a sense of wonder ("sensawunda"), to show how people could react to changes, to make you aware of the infinite potential of technology and people, to paint a few brushstrokes at the edge of your imagination, showing what may yet become your (or your descendants) normal day. I certainly don't find it strange that this is what engineers prefer reading - many of us became engineers by inspiration from SF, and all of us work with shaping the future. We want to predict and shape, not read anout what fictional people could have done in the last century, unless it helps us understand the present or predict the future. Eivind. [1] SF, not SciFi. SciFi is a word almost only used by the people that don't read SF - journalists and other lesser species ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 12:59:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29385 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29374 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25251; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:59:19 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Funny, but true... To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:59:19 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How to get an American Visa ? I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter its territory. The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, the translation is mine): - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false information ? - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to answer yes to any of these questions ??? Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:00:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29726 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29712 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04274; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:00:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd004263; Sat Jun 13 13:00:37 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04949; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:00:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806132000.NAA04949@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:00:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> from "Anatoly Vorobey" at Jun 13, 98 09:28:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I definitely agree, but I do wonder at the choice of SciFi as the main > reading material (perhaps it isn't in your case, but it is in case of > most of reading programmers and hackers I know). It always struck me as > something weird that so many otherwise very intelligent people, who > are able to create amazingly clever and beautiful algorithms/programs/OSes, > spend so much of their time reading essentially trashy literature, not > much different in its average quality from detective stories or paperback > romance novels. They can explain to you subtle details of VM architecture, > or tell you the plots of all William Gibson novels, but ask them about > Flaubert or T.S.Eliott or Cortasar or Chaucer or Pushkin or Italo Calvino > and you mostly get blank looks in return. > > Ah, SciFi. There are so few really good authors and books in it, books > that could really be considered real literature. Besides, many of those > remain much less known than better-selling trash. This is especially true, > I would say, in the US, in which readers usually pay little or no attention to > non-American authors. For example, America has, by and large, missed the > genius of Stanislaw Lem, who is perhaps the greatest SciFi author currently > alive, certainly in the Top 5, if you ask me. I don't read solely Science Fiction, but it is certainly the vast majority of what I read. I think you are unfairly maligning the genre. This is not to say that I haven't read non-science fiction as well; Umberto Eco, Thomas Hardy, Joseph Conrad, Edmund Spenser, Sir Arthur Connon Doyle, Edward Stratemeyer (8-)), Euripides (though Arthur Dent leaves the frogs standing...), Sophocles, Plato, W. Edwards Demming, Aristotle, Dave Barry, Jack London, Lewis Carrol, Miguel De Cervantes, Robin Cook, Ludovico Ariosto, Guy Kawasaki, Edgar Alan Poe, Richard Preston, Ambrose Bierce, etc., etc.. As I said before, I've read a lot of books. But Science Fiction is my favorite. Not only is there the fact that good SF is *really* social commentary, it's generally packed with brilliant ideas. The older the science fiction, the more likely it is that you can actually implement the technology. 8-). All technical and scientific ideas were, at one time, classifiable as Science Fiction. Arthur C. Clarke, in a Science fiction novel, invented communications satellites. Other authors invented almost everything else you can point to. I have a wonderful novel from the early 50's that defines a PDA... under the name "The Electrobook". 8-). More instances: It was "common knowledge" that heavier than air craft, such as those depicted in H.G. Wells "When the Sleeper Wakes", were "Impossible", as had been declaimed by Lord Kelvin. The idea that there were "animicules" so small that you could not see them was science fiction, until Anton Van Leeuwenhoek built a microsope and saw them. The idea that they could be the cause of disease was scoffed at, until Louis Pasteur proved the relationship. The idea that you could actually kill them without killing the host was science fiction until Alexander Fleming "contaminated" one of his slides with a bit of penicillium mold. PS: Excuse my butchery; I'm not home (where the book is) right now: "Very well", said Klapaucius, "Let's have a love poem, lyrical, pastoral, and expressed in the language of pure mathematics. Tensor algebra mostly, with a little topology and higher calculus, if need be. But with real feeling, mind you, and in the true cybernetic spirit." PPS: If you think computer scientists don't read Lem, you should check your "fortunes.dat" files... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:04:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00556 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25474; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:04:10 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199806132004.RAA25474@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: yahoo/netscape In-Reply-To: <199806020938.LAA00392@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Jun 2, 98 11:38:58 am" To: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Christoph Kukulies) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:04:10 -0300 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Christoph Kukulies) // From majordom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 2 14:51:05 1998 // Delivered-To: vmailer-chat@freebsd.org // Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:38:58 +0200 (MEST) // From: Christoph Kukulies // Message-Id: <199806020938.LAA00392@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> // To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG // Subject: yahoo/netscape // Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG // Precedence: bulk // X-Loop: FreeBSD.org // // Anyone knowing the story behind the fact that netscape isn't // offering Yahoo! in their search engine chooser? // // Is there any politics behind it? Yahoo is there. Altavista is not. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:13:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01561 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01553 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25598; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:12:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd025585; Sat Jun 13 13:12:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05616; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:12:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806132012.NAA05616@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:12:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35820E51.A82EFEF1@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jun 12, 98 11:29:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > These Friday night > gatherings were a 90-mile drive from work for me, but I usually got > to ride half of it with my brother who was the leader of the group > by virtue of being the oldest and biggest, and people just naturally > fall in step behind Johnnie. Even Terry! ;^) What do you expect? Johnnie is the former missle jockey who convinced the perimeter guard that the motion sensor was really a camera, and that there was a Lieutenant on the other end of the thing that he had to salute several times a shift to show that he wasn't being coerced by Russian agents. Anyone with the balls to completely snow a gung-ho borderline delusional paranoid maniac who goose-stepped around with a fully loaded M-16 switched full auto with the safety off is a born leader. I'd follow that man to the Mann Garage-plex and back if I had to... 8-). > Terry, we gotta have a labrat reunion one of these days. YOU get to > talk Johnnie into flying up for it, though. He's converted over to > the darkside, and is hacking on Linux for PowerPC these days. Seems > somebody gave him an entire ROOM of PowerStack servers to play with... Where is he living these days? Last I heard, he was in New Jersey... You're still in SLC, right? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:33:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04177 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA02774; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:10:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980613101016.48026@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:10:16 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix References: <19980612152145.07177@papillon.lemis.com> <21739.897731245@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <21739.897731245@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:47:25AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 2:47:25 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I'm now confirmed arriving on Thursday the 12th on a Continental >> flight from Houston. I don't suppose anybody else will be as late. >> I'm staying at the Meridien (only place I could get). I suppose I'll >> get there round 7:30 pm. If somebody can give me an idea of what's > > The plan for Thursday is roughly as follows: > > 2:30pm: Go heckle jkh as he attempts to speak about FreeBSD for a full > hour and a half (damn invited talks!). > > 6:30pm: File into the FreeBSD BOF room for a larger panel discussion > with the members of FreeBSD-core who will be at the conference. Damn. The two events I wanted to make it to. > The BOF is for an hour, after which we will be going out to eat with > the various people who are interested. I guess one of us can try to > call you on your mobile at that point and let you know where we're > eating since I suspect that you'll be arriving just as the BOF is > finishing up. No firm arrangements have been made as to where we'll > eat, but I expect us to know that information by at least 8:00pm. Sounds good. I'll be landing at 17:58, and will turn the mobile on as soon as I get out of range of the crew. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:35:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04436 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04397; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA02742; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:07:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980613100738.33858@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:07:39 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Julian Elischer , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Mike Smith , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix References: <19980612152145.07177@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:15:31PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 June 1998 at 22:15:31 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> (following up to -chat) >> >> On Thu, 11 June 1998 at 12:57:20 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >>>>> (apologies for those not interested but i don't know a better place >>>>> to ask) >>>>> >>>>> for the upcoming usenix, i am supposed to arrive in New Orleans on >>>>> tuesday 16th at 18:46 with flight AA2016 -- i wouldn't mind meeting >>>>> with other FreeBSD-ers, either at the airport or for dinner. if >>>>> someone is interested, please email me. >>>>> >>>> I get in at 17:14 Tues >>>> United airlines 372 >>>> (about 90 minutes earlier) >>>> is your flight a domestic leg or direct from Italy? >>>> where are you staying? >>>> >>>> are there others coming in at around this time? >>> >>> The party from Walnut Creek are arriving 16:25 tuesday on Southwest >>> 679. I'd be happy to hang around a couple hours to collect some more >>> people for a party, unless there's a better venue to do this at. >>> >>> (We may have a pile of stuff with us that we want to dump before going >>> out) >> >> I'm now confirmed arriving on Thursday the 12th on a Continental >> flight from Houston. I don't suppose anybody else will be as late. >> I'm staying at the Meridien (only place I could get). I suppose I'll >> get there round 7:30 pm. If somebody can give me an idea of what's >> going on and where to go, I'll go there (destinations in New Orleans >> only, please :-) I'll be available 512-750-3060 (mobile) from now >> until the end of next week. > > what year are you talking about?? Good question. Brain parity failure. > thursday the 12th? it's friday the 12th today Try again. Thursday the 18th. That's what my reservation says. > (13th where you are) No, it was the 12th. Check the mail headers. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:43:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05710 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:42:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA00446; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:38:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980613153845.17252@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:38:45 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: IBS / Andre Oppermann Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Seen on a Compaq Proliant References: <19980612154747.58903@papillon.lemis.com> <358284E4.4A6A8CD@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <358284E4.4A6A8CD@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:55:48PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 15:55:48 +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> I'm currently in Austin TX working up to a database benchmark on >> various Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq platforms, and we're just setting up >> a Proliant 6500 machine with UnixWare (4xPPro 200 MHz, 1 GB memory). >> For some reason, they decided to max out the main memory, and added >> another 1.25 GB. The kernel loaded and then said "too little memory >> to boot SMP". We took out 500 MB and it booted fine :-) > > Do you have any chance to run -current on it? *smile* Not this time. I was talking to one of the developers of NonStop clusters yesterday evening, and he thinks it should be possible to port Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq's clustering technology to FreeBSD. That doesn't mean that we'll get any kind of permission, of course. I would like to try to get something running on the Proliant, though. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:47:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06346 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26462; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806132047.NAA26462@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: IBS / Andre Oppermann , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Seen on a Compaq Proliant In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:38:45 CDT." <19980613153845.17252@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:47:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 15:55:48 +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> I'm currently in Austin TX working up to a database benchmark on > >> various Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq platforms, and we're just setting up > >> a Proliant 6500 machine with UnixWare (4xPPro 200 MHz, 1 GB memory). > >> For some reason, they decided to max out the main memory, and added > >> another 1.25 GB. The kernel loaded and then said "too little memory > >> to boot SMP". We took out 500 MB and it booted fine :-) > > > > Do you have any chance to run -current on it? *smile* > > Not this time. I was talking to one of the developers of NonStop > clusters yesterday evening, and he thinks it should be possible to > port Tandem^H^H^H^H^H^HCompaq's clustering technology to FreeBSD. > That doesn't mean that we'll get any kind of permission, of course. I > would like to try to get something running on the Proliant, though. If that happens that would be a huge plus for FreeBSD ! Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 13:57:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07346 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA02748; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:56:46 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980613235641.01088@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:56:41 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> <19980613211430.51924@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980613211430.51924@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200: > I believe you're missing the point of SF[1]. I don't think so. I've done a _lot_ of SF reading, no less than your usual hacker ;) I somehow grew out of it, and haven't been reading much SF for some years, and carefully picking what SF I do read as to avoid what I see as the usual trashy novel in the genre. I understand very well the fascination of SF; I simply think that truly great literature is usually much more fascinating. Because it's usually not banal or clichesque, for one thing. > The point isn't to see > how many layers of allegories and symbols one can create, or how > clever one can be with words. But neither is this the point of good fiction. Allegories and symbols are but tools, which undo the beauty of a book when overused. Playing with words is crosswords, not literature. If you think great literature is about allegories and symbols and wordplay, you're seriously mistaken - maybe you had bad literature teachers? :) It's mainly about art, and about beauty, and about spontaneously recreating new reality. > The point is to evoke a sense of wonder > ("sensawunda"), to show how people could react to changes, Where are those people? Most of SF novels pay no attention to people at all. Even the main characters are unbelievably shallow; they only exist to illustrate author's ideas, they're not "real" by a long shot. Which SF author knows how to describe his main hero smiling - did you notice that almost any person you meet in your life smiles differently? When SF authors do try to attribute some unique characteristics to their heroes, they do it with banal metaphors and worn-out images. This is perfectly acceptable for SF readers only because of the non-written agreement between authors and readers - authors are pretending they are describing human beings (or alien beings for that matter), and readers are accustomed to not having any idea how they look like, what clothes they wear, what are their gestures, dreams, habits. It's OK because the reader is keen to skip to the next great hyperdrive invention the hero is about to unleash on the humanity. The people described aren't people, they're badly made dolls. The sense of wonder is truly a great thing. But is it all that one can enjoy in literature? What about the joy of words, of unusual images, of novel and ingenious ways to describe human existence, emotions, thoughts and ideas? Compared to a Kafka novel, most of SF's originality shrinks to utter banality! When Tolstoy describes Anna Karenina, you feel you know her better than people close to you in your own life - compare that to the usual doll-hero in SF! (and doll-heroes they almost always hero; the funky heroes of cyberpunk, for example, are as much dolls as in the mainstream, they're simply forced into a funky outlook by the author). > to make you > aware of the infinite potential of technology and people, to paint a > few brushstrokes at the edge of your imagination, showing what may yet > become your (or your descendants) normal day. > I certainly don't find it strange that this is what engineers prefer > reading - many of us became engineers by inspiration from SF, and all > of us work with shaping the future. We want to predict and shape, not > read anout what fictional people could have done in the last century, > unless it helps us understand the present or predict the future. Sure. That's the sign of our generation: look into the bright future, forget about the old and boring past. We're going to have nanotechnology soon, what do we care about Rabelais or Beethoven? The truth is that with all our wonders of technology, we find ourselves in less and less educated world, in the world where people are able to appreciate beauty and have taste in things less and less with every year. With all the wonders of alien technology, cyberpunk, subspace travel and mindwaves SF as a genre still remains on the same level as trashy romance novels and soap operas. The characters are just as shallow, the plots are just as banal, the reality is just as second-hand and trivial. And it plays the same social role, too: exclusively entertaining, rather than helping one to learn more, to understand more. I'm not surprised engineers love reading SF. I'm surprised that *good* engineers often still read only SF. I treat programming as art (as much as I'm able to): and I perceive really well-desgined OS kernel, really fast and nontrivial algorithm, as works of art. I'm surprised that people possessing amazing intelligence and sense of beauty, allowing them to create such extremely complex and yet extremely beautiful works of art are often uneducated in the vast body of amazing art accumulated by humanity in the last thousands of years, so blind to the beauty of good literature. Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 14:11:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09199 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09194 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id QAA00581; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:10:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980613160957.41413@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:09:57 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Funny, but true... References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br>; from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 04:59:19PM -0300 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 16:59:19 -0300, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > How to get an American Visa ? > > ... > - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? I see this is your first visit to the US :-) They've been doing this for decades. When we first went there, in 1957, there was also a question about membership of a communist party. > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > answer yes to any of these questions ??? No. I suspect the real reason is to have a legal reason for prosecution if you are found to have lied. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 14:14:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09690 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09436; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id QAA00594; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:11:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980613161103.55889@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:11:03 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Andreas Klemm , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806091858.MAA28221@lariat.lariat.org> <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> <19980613150912.B24776@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980613150912.B24776@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:09:12PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 15:09:12 +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:24:33PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> Brett Glass said: >>> It's certainly getting a lot of press. See >>> >>> http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm >>> >> We can fret about it, or do something about it, with >> our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but >> do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and >> can do something about it, should feel free to >> participate in the solution. >> >> All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. > > Right, Andre Oppermann and I made an excellent article about > FreeBSD 2.2.6 and future developement for the biggest German > PC computermagazine, C't. Contains kernel tuning tips and such. > Will be available soon (maybe No 15). Glad to hear it's excellent :-) I'll be looking forward to it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 14:41:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12615 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24910; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:41:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:41:07 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br>; from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 04:59:19PM -0300 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 04:59:19PM -0300, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. > It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, > Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, > the translation is mine): > [strange questions snipped] > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > answer yes to any of these questions ??? I think greg is partially right; I'd assume that a visa form, like most other binding US Government forms, is subject to the USG's perjury laws--according to those, reporting false information on a government form is equivalent, at least in lip service, to lying in a trial (which is the strict definition of perjury). The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 14:42:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12785 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12746 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24921; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:42:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980613174239.53228@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:42:39 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: Christoph Kukulies , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: yahoo/netscape Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199806020938.LAA00392@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <199806132004.RAA25474@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199806132004.RAA25474@roma.coe.ufrj.br>; from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 05:04:10PM -0300 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 05:04:10PM -0300, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > #define quoting(Christoph Kukulies) > // From majordom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 2 14:51:05 1998 > // Delivered-To: vmailer-chat@freebsd.org > // Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:38:58 +0200 (MEST) > // From: Christoph Kukulies > // Message-Id: <199806020938.LAA00392@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> > // To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > // Subject: yahoo/netscape > // Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > // Precedence: bulk > // X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > // > // Anyone knowing the story behind the fact that netscape isn't > // offering Yahoo! in their search engine chooser? > // > // Is there any politics behind it? > > Yahoo is there. Altavista is not. ...and the last time I went to Yahoo, there were links to Altavista everywhere--I think Altavista is Yahoo's preferred Web spider now. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 14:50:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:50:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13815 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28171; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:50:00 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199806132150.SAA28171@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: yahoo/netscape In-Reply-To: <19980613174239.53228@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> from Lee Cremeans at "Jun 13, 98 05:42:39 pm" To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:50:00 -0300 (EST) Cc: jonny@jonny.eng.br, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Lee Cremeans) // > // Anyone knowing the story behind the fact that netscape isn't // > // offering Yahoo! in their search engine chooser? // > // // > // Is there any politics behind it? // > // > Yahoo is there. Altavista is not. // // ...and the last time I went to Yahoo, there were links to Altavista // everywhere--I think Altavista is Yahoo's preferred Web spider now. Mine, also. Hotbot was good at the beginning, but it could not stand the load. :) Altavista Rulez !!! Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 15:50:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18939 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25052; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:49:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980613184943.04213@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:49:43 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: yahoo/netscape Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19980613174239.53228@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <199806132150.SAA28171@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199806132150.SAA28171@roma.coe.ufrj.br>; from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:50:00PM -0300 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > #define quoting(Lee Cremeans) > // > // Anyone knowing the story behind the fact that netscape isn't > // > // offering Yahoo! in their search engine chooser? > // > // > // > // Is there any politics behind it? > // > > // > Yahoo is there. Altavista is not. > // > // ...and the last time I went to Yahoo, there were links to Altavista > // everywhere--I think Altavista is Yahoo's preferred Web spider now. > > Mine, also. Hotbot was good at the beginning, but it could not stand > the load. :) Altavista Rulez !!! I first used Altavista when it came out in 1995, then I switched over to hotBot for a while, but now you're right, hotBot has gotten kinda lame. I'm back on Altavista now. :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 15:50:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18938 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:49:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06460; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:49:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199806132249.RAA06460@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Funny, but true... In-Reply-To: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis at "Jun 13, 98 04:59:19 pm" To: jonny@jonny.eng.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:49:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joao Carlos Mendes Luis said: > > - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? > - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA > using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false > information ? > - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, > subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? > - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced > persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, > or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the > Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? > - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? > - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? > > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > answer yes to any of these questions ??? > Those questions ARE cr*p, aren't they? Well, the reason is probably very subtile, and has to do with perjury sometimes being an easy to prove reason for deportation. The personal searches are also very offensive. Who cares if you have ever "sold your body"? It isn't a good practice, but I do know people who have been able to grow away from that destructive behavior... Note that bureaucracies are not known for having a reasonable collective intelligence. The further the bureaucrats and legislatures stray from real life, the worse the situation gets. It is very frustrating to me that there aren't more "furners" here, so we can learn even more... I am one of those idiots that starts asking questions about people, when I meet them... Sometimes it is off-putting, because it is sometimes taken as being critical or nosey, but frankly the way people live and their cultures are fascinating to me. USA is a very desirable $$$ place to live, (in ways that might be different than other countries), but isn't ideal for everyone. It can be very very difficult to adjust to for people who have lived their entire lifes in more socialistic countries, for example. My opinion, is that home is where you want to make it. I sure wish that we were more careful, respectful AND caring on how we qualified immigrants though. At the frontier, our gov't is hostile even for Americans. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 16:36:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23374 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23360 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA15960; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:36:13 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:38:22 GMT Message-ID: <35830ce3.4267607@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> In-Reply-To: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA23361 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:59:19 -0300 (EST), Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: >- Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? >- Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA > using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false > information ? >- Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, > subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? >- Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced > persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, > or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the > Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? >- Have you ever participated in a genocide ? >- Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? > > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to >answer yes to any of these If they lie and the government finds out later, then the feds have documentation of the lie and a basis for deportation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 19:16:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06510 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06500 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA08604; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 05:16:00 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980614051600.62407@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 05:16:00 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> <199806132000.NAA04949@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199806132000.NAA04949@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:00:33PM +0000 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Terry Lambert, were spotted writing this on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:00:33PM +0000: > I don't read solely Science Fiction, but it is certainly the vast > majority of what I read. More's the pity, if you ask me. > > I think you are unfairly maligning the genre. I don't think so. I would rather say I'm aware of its limitations as well as its advantages. I certainly don't despise the genre. Most of my childhood and youth were spent under the sign of addiction to SF. I swallowed SF it by dozens, hundreds of books; knew by heart all of Bradbury and Azimov and Shackley and Simak (I must have reread "City" at least 10 times) and so on, and so forth, fathers of the genre as well as recent books, still famous authors as well as authors now unfairly forgotten by many (Henry Kuttner is one, for example). It supported and enhanced my interest in science; it made me curious about computers; it inspired my daydreaming. But there comes a time when one can look back and reassess the books and genre he grew up with. And when I did that, I saw that few books really stayed with me, enriched me, taught me something besides another idea of a null-space. The favourite authors and favourite books remain with me, but they are so rare in the sea of funky aliens and badly thought-out future societies... But above all, I wonder: why only SF, or mostly SF? Why is Ovid to be confined to a readership of classics departments in universities? Why Shakespeare is something you learn at school and then forget, or, at best, a source of worn-out quotes? >From a literary point of view, SF looks like an ignorant child. The art of writing prose has been refined in Europe during the last seven centuries. It's not easy, writing good prose; writers gradually learned to carefully weave the plot line, to breathe life into their characters, to avoid cliches and dead metaphors, to shift narrative voices, to break and maintain unity of time, place and action, to let their words flow or stumble as they wished; to break the novel into a surrealistic chaos and resurrect it in a Joycean synthesis. SF, as a genre, remains provincial and ignorant in regard to this tradition of refining art of prose. SF authors, by and large, don't write well, just as cheap romance novels aren't written well. Many people who grew up exclusively on SF (I didn't) simply lack the appreciation and the taste for good prose; their motives for reading are different, shaped by SF. No SF novel I am familiar with begins as beautifully as Nabokov's Lolita: "Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta." But one friend of mine doesn't understand my fascination with this passage; he sees nothing but a few symbols and allegories in it. He expects unusual wonders and novel technologies in a book; he lacks the taste that can only be built up by reading lots of good prose. I am far from condemning the genre. Every genre has its right to live. But to read only SF, or even mostly SF, is in my opinion to miss the exquisite beauty of great literature that is much more subtle, beautiful, passionate and thrilling than all the spaceships and subspaces of the multiverse. [a somewhat eclectic list of non-SF writers skipped; I must admit I don't know who Guy Kawasaki is, and my knowledge of Japanese authors is limited to Akutagava Ryunoske in prose and many haiku authors in verse] > PS: Excuse my butchery; I'm not home (where the book is) right now: > > "Very well", said Klapaucius, "Let's have a love poem, lyrical, > pastoral, and expressed in the language of pure mathematics. > Tensor algebra mostly, with a little topology and higher > calculus, if need be. But with real feeling, mind you, and in > the true cybernetic spirit." > > PPS: If you think computer scientists don't read Lem, you should > check your "fortunes.dat" files... I know that computer scientists read Lem (my point was about general SF-reading community), but even they don't read him enough. A good example is Lem's book "Summa technologiae". This non-fiction book was written in the middle of the 50ies and in it Lem tries to predict and discuss future technological breakthroughs, ethical and philosophical problems they can bring, etc., based on the knowledge of technology we had in the 50ies. Not only does the book predict with amazing accuracy some of the technological changes we've seen since then; it also singlehandedly invents and describes the basics of several branches of philosophy of mind, AI and cognitive science. For example, it contains amazingly accurate prediction and description of "virtual reality" concept and problems related to it (such as recognizing whether you are in the "real" reality or the virtual one, feasibility of building entirely convicning virtual reality, etc.) The book was never translated to English (AFAIK) and some of the problems and concepts described in it were discussed in the AI and philosophy of mind community only starting in late 70ies, and it took the community quite a few years to reach the clarity and precision of Lem's thought (quite well-known Hofstadter and Dennett's anthology "The Mind's I" of '81 dealing with similar range of problems is unaware of "Summa technologiae" and some of the articles and commentaries in it look amazingly childish compared to that work of the 50ies). And what is read by Lem when Lem is read? Most computer scientists or SF lovers who read Lem are familiar only with "Cyberiad", sometimes the "Diaries of Ijon Tichy", rarely with anything else. These are very good, and very funny works, but they are *old*, they have been written in 50ies and 60ies, and since then Lem has been writing amazingly smart and beatiful SF for more than 30 years. "Solaris", "Fiasco", "Investigation"... many more novels and stories, essays and novelettes which together comprise some of the best SF ever written and most of which remain virtually unknown to American readers. I own a 14-volumed set of Lem's works translated into Russian, and these are selected, not complete works. I suppose that a half of these works were even never translated into English. Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 21:16:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15334 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-103.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.103]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28584; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:15:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05719; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:02:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Peter D. Pawelek" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-reply-to: Message from "Peter D. Pawelek" of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:52:36 EDT." <3.0.5.32.19980613105236.007f3100@mail.axess.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:02:01 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Peter D. Pawelek" writes: > > In fact, it's just grown by one...me. :) > > I've just jumped ship from Linux (Slackware user for 3 years) to FreeBSD > since I fear that the Linux 'community' is starting to balkanize (ie. > RedHat's largely divisive strategy of 'market' domination and > de-standardization) and will likely degenerate into a muddled anarchy > within a few years. I've also grown tired of the core of Linux users who > evangelize the gospel according to GNU. Very well put. Describes my feelings about 3 years ago when I jumped off Linux when it crashed and trashed its filesystems the 3rd time in one week. FreeBSD filesystems may be slower, but losing data is even slower. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 22:06:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18596 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (itojun@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18552; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W/smtpfeed 0.63) with ESMTP id OAA11084; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:05:54 +0900 (JST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Julian Elischer , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat In-reply-to: jkh's message of Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:47:25 MST. <21739.897731245@time.cdrom.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: usenix From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:05:54 +0900 Message-ID: <11080.897800754@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The plan for Thursday is roughly as follows: >2:30pm: Go heckle jkh as he attempts to speak about FreeBSD for a full > hour and a half (damn invited talks!). >6:30pm: File into the FreeBSD BOF room for a larger panel discussion > with the members of FreeBSD-core who will be at the conference. Maybe I'm not looking the right page, but the above BOF is not listed on http://www.usenix.org/events/no98/brochure/bof.html. I dunno why is it. itojun PS: I'll be flying to there on Monday (tomorrow), will be staying Marriott until 21st. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 22:26:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20439 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from dyson@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20429; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199806140526.WAA20429@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.99999? In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980604174542.044f7310@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Jun 4, 98 05:55:18 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How far is 3.0 away from prime time? What is the official criterion for > deciding when it's ready to do a release? Now that it has so many things > that 2.2.6 doesn't, is it time for a 2.9999 release based on the -current > source tree to wring out the remaining bugs? > What you are talking about had historically been a disagreement between JKH and myself. You might talk to jkh@freebsd.org about your concerns. I haven't heard many compelling arguments, other than unfortunate expectations being set. John dyson@iquest.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 13 23:44:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-1-23.stratos.net [207.86.132.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27873 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id CAA05433; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980614020737.A4548@stratos.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:07:37 -0400 To: Eivind Eklund , Anatoly Vorobey , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> <19980613211430.51924@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980613211430.51924@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Sorry about the length.. some context quoting is necessary ] On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:28:37PM +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > You, Terry Lambert, were spotted writing this on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:19:35PM +0000: > > > [ snip ] > > > > I definitely agree, but I do wonder at the choice of SciFi as the main > > reading material (perhaps it isn't in your case, but it is in case of > > most of reading programmers and hackers I know). It always struck me as > > something weird that so many otherwise very intelligent people, who > > are able to create amazingly clever and beautiful algorithms/programs/OSes, > > spend so much of their time reading essentially trashy literature, not > > much different in its average quality from detective stories or paperback > > romance novels. They can explain to you subtle details of VM architecture, > > or tell you the plots of all William Gibson novels, but ask them about > > Flaubert or T.S.Eliott or Cortasar or Chaucer or Pushkin or Italo Calvino > > and you mostly get blank looks in return. > > I believe you're missing the point of SF[1]. The point isn't to see > how many layers of allegories and symbols one can create, or how > clever one can be with words. The point is to evoke a sense of wonder > ("sensawunda"), to show how people could react to changes, to make you > aware of the infinite potential of technology and people, to paint a > few brushstrokes at the edge of your imagination, showing what may yet > become your (or your descendants) normal day. Not all science fiction is trashy literature, but I think Anatoly has a point. It seems to me that much of SciFi (or SF, or whatever the hell you wanna call it) falls under one of several themes. 1) the "sensawunda" Eivind was talking about. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing I can get really passionate about either. 2) cliche "woe-is-mankind-with-all-this-technology" plotlines. 3) in the year 2345, when there are no wars, no greed, no disease, and everybody recycles. Science fiction -- if not just a technological flight-of-fancy -- is often a tool for the author's social or political agenda. I was a columnist for my college newspaper a few years ago, and was no stranger to getting on political soapboxes :) But, something about having ficticious characters speaking on behalf of the author, rather than the author coming right out and saying what's on his mind just annoys the hell out of me. Admittedly, many of the best (usually) non-science fiction authors historically have done this too. George Orwell comes to mind. But somehow, non-science fiction writers pull it off better, possibly because the characters are often more believable -- more real. I can care about them and even identify with them. Often, science fiction characters chase each other around banks of blinking lights armed with phaser guns. That doesn't mean science fiction won't cut it. I just personally prefer that the technology should be the backdrop for good character development. Several months ago, I saw Startrek IV (I know, it's a movie and not a book) for the second time (the first time I think I was 13 or 14). I could bearly make it through. The entire movie was filled with cornball dialogue and incessent preaching about the environment. As if blowing up planets, waging inter-galactic wars, and messing around with the space-time continuum were enviro-friendly practices :) Of course, this whole spiel is coming from a guy who actually /enjoys/ watching C-SPAN, so maybe I have no place to talk. Oh well, to each his own... > We want to predict and shape, not > read anout what fictional people could have done in the last century, > unless it helps us understand the present or predict the future. The past can often be a good indicator of the future. Times change, as does technology. But human nature does not. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a matter of personal opinion. > [1] SF, not SciFi. SciFi is a word almost only used by the people > that don't read SF - journalists and other lesser species ;-) ^^^^ Low blow ;-) -Rob -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message