From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 2 12:01:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10395 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles248.castles.com [208.214.165.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10390 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09190; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808021900.MAA09190@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyone have an opinion on PandaProject In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:26:17 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:00:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hello, > > I have been looking at deciding on a newer system and have > been lurking around the information at > > http://www.pandaproject.com/ourstuff.htm > > Has any of the experienced hardware persons here got an opinion to > express on the products that they produce? What first caught my > attention with them was their claim to be producing hardware > without obsolescence built in. Looks like a pleasantly expensive way of buying a PC. If you're into locking yourself to a single vendor with a proprietary bus, go for it. I would consider it an educational experience to compare the cost of upgrading one of their system with the cost of purchasing an entire new commodity-component system. The mechanicals actually look quite nice; plenty of cooling, etc., but the proprietary CPU/bridge/memory cards are a major lose. This quote: "Dataquest has no doubts that passive back planes will garner sizable success as a next generation server architecture. Passive back plane systems give the customer more choices in building customizable client server solutions down to the componentry level." is a laugh for anyone that's lived outside the PC arena. > Probably wouldn't be looking at a server model but the ST-300 > > http://www.rockcity.net/order/computers.asp?Action=Specs&computer_type=ST-300 > > looks very impressive for $1295US. How to market a boring computer: add trivial frills. Ultimately, you'll want to decide what it is you want. So far, it seems that coolness is more important to you than functionality. In a year or two, you will have a very cool heap of junk. 8) On the other hand, you can build something equivalent in performance for less, or spend the same money on something boring but somewhat better. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 2 17:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03134 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA03118; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z38WD-0007L0-00; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:30:29 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id BAA00331; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:29:57 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21492; Mon, 3 Aug 98 01:29:55 BST Message-Id: <35C5108E.1B39EF60@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 01:21:18 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brandon Huey , Josef Grosch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Saturday, 1 August 1998 at 3:34:22 -0700, Brandon Huey wrote: > > > > i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in > > Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the > > linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the > > likes, where they normally are. > > :-) > > Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. > > They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. > And in the UK it's available from David Grant Crawley in Prescot http://www.dgc-nms.co.uk along with the CD's. > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 2 21:46:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25076 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme47.sunshine.net [209.17.178.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25071 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00390; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Mike Smith cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyone have an opinion on PandaProject In-Reply-To: <199808021900.MAA09190@antipodes.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Mike Smith wrote: => Looks like a pleasantly expensive way of buying a PC. If you're into => locking yourself to a single vendor with a proprietary bus, go for it. => I would consider it an educational experience to compare the cost of => upgrading one of their system with the cost of purchasing an entire => new commodity-component system. => The mechanicals actually look quite nice; plenty of cooling, etc., but => the proprietary CPU/bridge/memory cards are a major lose. => This quote: => "Dataquest has no doubts that passive back planes will garner sizable => success as a next generation server architecture. Passive back plane => systems give the customer more choices in building customizable client => server solutions down to the componentry level." => is a laugh for anyone that's lived outside the PC arena. This I'll take your advice and word on. => > Probably wouldn't be looking at a server model but the ST-300 => > => > http://www.rockcity.net/order/computers.asp?Action=Specs&computer_type=ST-300 => > => > looks very impressive for $1295US. => => How to market a boring computer: add trivial frills. I hardly have the experience in hardware to understand the technical descriptions that you obviously do and I hadn't considered the proprietary aspect. Most of what I learned is from asking questions such as this one. => Ultimately, you'll want to decide what it is you want. So far, it => seems that coolness is more important to you than functionality. In a => year or two, you will have a very cool heap of junk. 8) And I'll have a cool aluminum cube on my desk. Maybe I'll just visit a local metal fabricator, come up with a cool line of `Daemon' case designs :) => On the other hand, you can build something equivalent in performance => for less, or spend the same money on something boring but somewhat => better. Thanks for the informed reply. Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk Discover Rock Solid, Discover FreeBSD | http://www.FreeBSD.Org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 2 23:33:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05307; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16432; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980802233306.A16416@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:33:06 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey , Brandon Huey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 08:05:11AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 08:05:11AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 1 August 1998 at 3:34:22 -0700, Brandon Huey wrote: >> >> i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in >> Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the >> linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the >> likes, where they normally are. > >:-) > >Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. > >They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. I have been listing Borders, Barnes & Noble, et al. under "National" My thinking was that these are national book chains and will carry "The Complete FreeBSD" in most of their larger stores. I may have to re-think my position. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.8 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 3 00:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12303 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12294; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA12836; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:07:06 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA26831; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:06:58 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803170658.K25942@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:06:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Brandon Huey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com> <19980802233306.A16416@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980802233306.A16416@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:33:06PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:33:06 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 08:05:11AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 1 August 1998 at 3:34:22 -0700, Brandon Huey wrote: >>> >>> i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in >>> Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the >>> linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the >>> likes, where they normally are. >> >> :-) >> >> Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. >> >> They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. > > I have been listing Borders, Barnes & Noble, et al. under "National" My > thinking was that these are national book chains and will carry "The > Complete FreeBSD" in most of their larger stores. I may have to re-think my > position. No, I think I need to learn how to read. I thought "National" was one of your States. At least, that's my claim. Seriously, how about putting "National" up the front before the list of the states and making it obvious that it's not just another state listing? Most people will look for their state first and ignore the others. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 3 03:51:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 03:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05380 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 03:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@helan.org) Received: from helan.org (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22914; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:49:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35C59606.DB19DABC@helan.org> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:50:46 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" CC: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anyone have an opinion on PandaProject References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > And I'll have a cool aluminum cube on my desk. Maybe I'll just visit a > local metal fabricator, come up with a cool line of `Daemon' case > designs :) I think that's an *excellent* idea... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 3 09:05:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:05:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14555 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27792; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:04:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199808031604.KAA27792@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Anyone have an opinion on PandaProject In-Reply-To: from "Kevin G. Eliuk" at "Aug 1, 98 11:26:17 pm" To: kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:04:40 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin asked: > Probably wouldn't be looking at a server model but the ST-300 > > http://www.rockcity.net/order/computers.asp?Action=Specs&computer_type=ST-300 > > looks very impressive for $1295US. It looks impressive for $600US. I took a minute to run up a system similar in specs at my local wholesaler: Component Price 3.2 Gb Ultra-IDE HD Fujitsu 115.00 TEAC 1.44 Mb floppy 18.00 TEAC 32x IDE CD-ROM 54.00 S3 Virge/DX 4Mb SVGA 27.00 Yamaha 3D sound 12.00 K6-2 300Mhz CPU 156.00 Soyo SY5-EHM motherboard 91.00 K6 CPU fan 6.00 64Mb SDRAM DIMM, 100 Mhz 78.00 Juster speakers AT-95 15.00 Juster gooseneck microphone 2.00 Mitsumi 104-key keyboard 9.00 Logitech 3-button mouse 8.00 TTGI mini-tower w/230W 23.00 ========== Total 614.00 Granted, this is in a boring little 'hydraulic door' case, but should perform similarly, with the exception that this one uses a motherboard with 100 Mhz bus to system ram, and has 64 Mb of RAM because that's all my shop stocks for 100 Mhz capabile SDRAM. I like your idea of getting a local shop to fabricate a cool- looking case. I once worked on a computer design we were going to put in a plastic potato, because they were cheap, cute, and we could get lots of them. (It was called the SPUDstation, for various reasons. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 3 22:36:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03661 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03640; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15480; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:36:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:36:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: OS War to Cure Cystic Fibrosis Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This seems to apply to both -chat and -advocacy, so don't kill me. :-) Sorry if this has already been posted, but this looks quite interesting. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/5601/ FreeBSD already has a few votes, and voting (one vote per dollar donated) helps out a worthy cause. So, any philanthropic FreeBSD users out there? :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 3 23:59:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08964 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08958 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z3b4D-0005og-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:59:29 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0z3b1x-0005MW-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:57:09 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199808031914.MAA00830@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 07:57:08 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fast FFT routines with source? Cc: luoqi@watermarkgroup.com, reilly@zeta.org.au, jgrosch@mooseriver.com, shocking@prth.pgs.com, malte.lance@gmx.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to chat] On 03-Aug-98 Terry Lambert wrote: > To know "how FFT works", you have to know what this nasty > numbers in the frequency-domain stand for and where they come > from. Also you need to know why you are able to reuse > intermediary calculation-results (bit-reversion/reordering). > The answers to this questions are easy, when you have knowledge > about unit-roots and exponentials. Unit-roots and exponentials > are really not that hard, that they shouldn't be explained in a > basic-level analysis or algebra book. Speaking in general about engineering now, this is so true. However, there are many people you just want to use it, get the job done, get paid, go home. I work at an engineering consultancy where we basically design and build digital communication equiment where the digits are carried over the air (so 802.11, GSM, DECT, PHS, DTV, HomeRF, Bluetooth...). We have grown from 5 people 9 years ago to about 120 engineers now. Last Friday someone needed some RF help and was saying that the character of the engineers has changed such that the majority are good in one sphere but don't like anything new, makes it difficult to do work on new technolgoies... > > I consistently find Sedgewick's book useful; despite the title, it > has very little direct relationship to C++ (or any other implementation > language). I have the Pacal version and have used it to write C, Tcl, Makefiles... > In particular, if you ever want to know "what's Terry on about?" > when I talk about "Hamiltonian Cycles" and "Warshal's Algorithm" > and "O(3) Algorithms for Transitive Closure" and "Directed Acyclic > Graph", this is the book to read. > Yup, usual scenario is "what is Terry on about today, ho hum lets look it up in Sedgewick (or The Daemon Book)". Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 06:55:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29552 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29494; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12788; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:55:35 +0100 (BST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA21622; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:55:12 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19980804145511.R13425@iii.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:55:11 +0100 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SETI@home Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, [ sent to -chat and -questions, reply-to points back to -chat ] Is anyone else looking at the SETI@home project? It's sort of like the RC5 (and other) challenges, but using the spare CPU power to analyse radio signals. I note that the "Programming help wanted" page at says that a FreeBSD port is in progress. N -- "Last night I had a dream. I found myself in a desert called Cyberland. It was hot, my canteen had sprung a leak and I was thirsty. Out of the abyss walked a cow, Elsie. I asked if she had anything to drink. She said `I'm forbidden to produce milk. In Cyberland we only drink. . . Diet Coke.'" -- Maureen, _Rent_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 07:42:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09636 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09554; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29316; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:41:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35C71DA2.2C302436@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:41:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ditching POP, moving to IMAP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The subject sums it up well. I'm going to move my mail server from POP to IMAP, so my (few) mail users can manage their email accounts from several locations in a reasonable fashion. We use a variety of clients, including Netscape mail on FreeBSD, Solaris, and HP/UX, Eudora Lite on Win95/NT, and Mail-It and BeMail on BeOS. What do you clever FreeBSD users and administrators out there use? I'm looking through the docs on Cyrus, but it looks a bit "over the top" for my small user base. Is IMAP-uw reasonably reliable once patched into submission? It seems to be such a goldmine of bugs and security holes, I'm a little hesitant to jump in. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 08:42:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23706 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23535; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27694; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:41:04 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:45:01 -0400 To: Chris Dillon , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: OS War to Cure Cystic Fibrosis Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:36 AM -0500 8/4/98, Chris Dillon wrote: > Sorry if this has already been posted, but this looks quite > interesting. > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/5601/ > > FreeBSD already has a few votes, and voting (one vote per dollar > donated) helps out a worthy cause. So, any philanthropic FreeBSD > users out there? :-) Note that the web page says: Final vote will be based on money received by Saturday, June 6, 1998, so don't forget to follow up... My watch may be running fast, but I believe it's already after June 6th. The votes you see on the page are the final results for this year. Save up your contributions though, as they might very well run the contest again next year... --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 08:48:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26013 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost.criterion.canon.co.uk (cruella.criterion.canon.co.uk [194.223.249.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26004; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adamn@criterion.canon.co.uk) Received: from csl.com (hermes.criterion.canon.co.uk [194.223.249.13]) by mailhost.criterion.canon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08292; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:43:10 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35C72C71.B13DC590@csl.com> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:44:49 +0100 From: Adam Nealis Organization: Criterion Software, Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ditching POP, moving to IMAP References: <35C71DA2.2C302436@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > The subject sums it up well. I'm going to move my mail server from POP > to IMAP, so my (few) mail users can manage their email accounts from > several locations in a reasonable fashion. > > We use a variety of clients, including Netscape mail on FreeBSD, Solaris, > and HP/UX, Eudora Lite on Win95/NT, and Mail-It and BeMail on BeOS. > > What do you clever FreeBSD users and administrators out there use? I'm > looking through the docs on Cyrus, but it looks a bit "over the top" for > my small user base. Is IMAP-uw reasonably reliable once patched into > submission? It seems to be such a goldmine of bugs and security holes, > I'm a little hesitant to jump in. I've been running UofW IMAP fine for 8 months (first for pine, later [<2 months], for NS communicator). Couple of "watch out"s for UofW IMAP/Communicator - but if you decide to go that way I'll point you to the page I found that solved my problem. Cheers, Adam. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 09:51:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07645 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (cyclone.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA07585 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:50:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.de (unverified [194.95.214.188]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:51:39 +0200 Received: (from malte.lance@gmx.net) by neuron.webmore.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01698; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:01:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Malte Lance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:01:57 +0200 (CEST) To: Duncan Barclay Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, luoqi@watermarkgroup.com, reilly@zeta.org.au, jgrosch@mooseriver.com, shocking@prth.pgs.com Subject: Re: Fast FFT routines with source? In-Reply-To: References: <199808031914.MAA00830@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13766.63345.690098.364674@neuron.webmore.de> Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay writes: > > [moved to chat] > > On 03-Aug-98 Terry Lambert wrote: > > > To know "how FFT works", you have to know what this nasty > > numbers in the frequency-domain stand for and where they come > > from. Also you need to know why you are able to reuse > > intermediary calculation-results (bit-reversion/reordering). > > The answers to this questions are easy, when you have knowledge > > about unit-roots and exponentials. Unit-roots and exponentials > > are really not that hard, that they shouldn't be explained in a > > basic-level analysis or algebra book. Ugh ... that wasn't Terry posting that. It was me. I don't think Terry is happy about seeing someone else words being put into his mouth. Malte. > > Speaking in general about engineering now, this is so true. However, there are > many people you just want to use it, get the job done, get paid, go home. > I work at an engineering consultancy where we basically design and build > digital communication equiment where the digits are carried over the air (so > 802.11, GSM, DECT, PHS, DTV, HomeRF, Bluetooth...). > We have grown from 5 people 9 years ago to > about 120 engineers now. Last Friday someone needed some RF help and was > saying that the character of the engineers has changed such that the majority > are good in one sphere but don't like anything new, makes it difficult > to do work on new technolgoies... > > > > > I consistently find Sedgewick's book useful; despite the title, it > > has very little direct relationship to C++ (or any other implementation > > language). > > I have the Pacal version and have used it to write C, Tcl, Makefiles... > > > In particular, if you ever want to know "what's Terry on about?" > > when I talk about "Hamiltonian Cycles" and "Warshal's Algorithm" > > and "O(3) Algorithms for Transitive Closure" and "Directed Acyclic > > Graph", this is the book to read. > > > > Yup, usual scenario is "what is Terry on about today, ho hum lets look it up in > Sedgewick (or The Daemon Book)". > > Duncan > --- > ________________________________________________________________________ > Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, > dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. > ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 11:28:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01153 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (Kirk.netunlimited.net [208.128.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01096 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brownicm@netunlimited.net) Received: from malachi.my.domain (Saavik-25.netunlimited.net [208.158.212.154]) by Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08992; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980804145511.R13425@iii.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Browning To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nik@iii.co.uk Subject: RE: SETI@home -- you are not alone... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I came across the SETI@home thing about a year ago and thought it was just too cool. Waiting to participate. If they port it to freebsd, that will be one more machine I can run it on. What's RC5? On 04-Aug-98 nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > Hi folks, > > [ sent to -chat and -questions, reply-to points back to > -chat ] > > Is anyone else looking at the SETI@home project? It's > sort of like the > RC5 (and other) challenges, but using the spare CPU power > to analyse > radio signals. > > > > I note that the "Programming help wanted" page at > > > > > says that a FreeBSD port is in progress. > > N Chris Browning brownicm@netunlimited.net "If you believe in Nothing... Honey, It believes in you." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 11:59:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05561 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05554 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04702; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:56:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004568; Tue Aug 4 11:56:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22881; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:55:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199808041855.LAA22881@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Fast FFT routines with source? To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk (Duncan Barclay) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:55:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, luoqi@watermarkgroup.com, reilly@zeta.org.au, jgrosch@mooseriver.com, shocking@prth.pgs.com, malte.lance@gmx.net In-Reply-To: from "Duncan Barclay" at Aug 4, 98 07:57:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 03-Aug-98 Terry Lambert wrote: > > > To know "how FFT works", you have to know what this nasty > > numbers in the frequency-domain stand for and where they come > > from. Also you need to know why you are able to reuse > > intermediary calculation-results (bit-reversion/reordering). > > The answers to this questions are easy, when you have knowledge > > about unit-roots and exponentials. Unit-roots and exponentials > > are really not that hard, that they shouldn't be explained in a > > basic-level analysis or algebra book. Actually, malte.lance@gmx.net wrote that... > Speaking in general about engineering now, this is so true. However, there are > many people you just want to use it, get the job done, get paid, go home. These are the people we will force to take Soma, when it becomes available. Here's the part I worte... > > I consistently find Sedgewick's book useful; despite the title, it > > has very little direct relationship to C++ (or any other implementation > > language). > > I have the Pacal version and have used it to write C, Tcl, Makefiles... > > > In particular, if you ever want to know "what's Terry on about?" > > when I talk about "Hamiltonian Cycles" and "Warshal's Algorithm" > > and "O(3) Algorithms for Transitive Closure" and "Directed Acyclic > > Graph", this is the book to read. > > > > Yup, usual scenario is "what is Terry on about today, ho hum lets look > it up in Sedgewick (or The Daemon Book)". Heh. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 17:31:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27703 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27645 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA22612 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:31:14 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA02904 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:28:05 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Domain Name For Sale Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone want a domain name? Highperformance.net, my brainchild before I really knew what I was getting into is up for grabs. The current fee for a new domain is $70 US. The current fee for renewal is $35 US. My domain is up for renewal. You can have it for a CD copy of FreeBSD 3.0-Release, a pizza, or one of Jordan's cats. You pay renewal. You save on the cost of a new domain name. Chances are this hairbrained scheme of an ISP will just die quietly. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 18:55:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11985 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11965; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18547; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:55:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:55:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Garance A Drosihn cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS War to Cure Cystic Fibrosis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > Note that the web page says: > > Final vote will be based on money received by Saturday, > June 6, 1998, so don't forget to follow up... > > My watch may be running fast, but I believe it's already after June 6th. > The votes you see on the page are the final results for this year. Save > up your contributions though, as they might very well run the contest > again next year... > Uuuh... My bad. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 19:55:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (wumpus.its.uow.edu.au [130.130.68.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21398 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA09791; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:55:22 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:55:21 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Chris Browning cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nik@iii.co.uk Subject: RE: SETI@home -- you are not alone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Chris Browning wrote: > I came across the SETI@home thing about a year ago and > thought it was just too cool. Waiting to participate. If > they port it to freebsd, that will be one more machine I > can run it on. What's RC5? > Have a look at www.distributed.net. To try to sum it up, it's a huge collaborative and networked effort to crack rc5-64. Upon checking the stats, there were a few interesting figures: (Under top 100 teams listing) 2 Japan FreeBSD Users Group 31506372 282 days 3-Aug 347116.63 The second highest team in the cracking effort is our mates over in .jp! 14 Team FreeBSD 6801812 285 days 3-Aug 74149.10 There we are again at the 14th position. :) (Under top 100 participants) 1 rc5@jp.freebsd.org 13097280 257 days 3-Aug 158333.98 Woohoo!@ Number 1! :) We're not going that badly in the os rankings either, coming fifth (out of 29 different os's) after: Operating System Blocks (1) Win32 (95/NT) 684298016 (2) MacOS 168676713 (3) Linux 143123548 (4) Solaris 88381106 (5) FreeBSD 31722642 A few other notable inclusions: (13) BSDI 3312926 (20) NetBSD 1291470 (28) OpenBSD 36648 Sidenote: It was amusing to see vms and rhapsody topping openbsd :) Nick ps, all these stats came from http://rc5stats.distributed.net -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 4 21:37:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06522 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA25264 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:37:09 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA09894 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:33:47 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Never Mind Was: Domain Name For Sale In-Reply-To: <199808050313.VAA11957@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After looking a little closer I see that transferring ownership is not as easy as I thought. In any case, the new owner will be billed in full for a "new" registration by the Internic. *** http://rs.internic.net/reg-change/rncafaq.html If the domain name is being transferred from one party to another, the domain name must be in a paid status before the transfer can occur. After the transfer, the new Registrant will be invoiced for a new registration fee. The former Registrant will not receive a refund of its registration fee. *** This means that I can't offer anyone a better deal than they would get for buying there own brand new domain. Oh Well. Maybe I will start up a page under that name for the sake of all that is nerdy. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 01:58:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12151 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.consol.de (gate.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12145 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29754; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:58:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (me@fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19580; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:58:37 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA14362; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:58:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:58:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Elbel Message-Id: <199808050858.KAA14362@fourier.int.consol.de> To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Never Mind Was: Domain Name For Sale Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: Reply-To: me@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >After looking a little closer I see that transferring ownership is not as >easy as I thought. In any case, the new owner will be billed in full for a >"new" registration by the Internic. >*** >http://rs.internic.net/reg-change/rncafaq.html >If the domain name is being transferred from one party to another, the >domain name must be in a paid status before the transfer can occur. After >the transfer, the new Registrant will be invoiced for a new registration >fee. The former Registrant will not receive a refund of its registration >fee. >*** >This means that I can't offer anyone a better deal than they would get for >buying there own brand new domain. Oh Well. What you always can do is transfer nameservers, admin/tech/billing contact to somebody else. Then later change the postal address and you're all set, especially in your case where the "company" name is "High Performance Net" Basically you're *not* transferring the domain, simply changing all it's bits. Usually this is not so easy since you've tied an actual company to it. And yes, this is a very big pain in the ass. I've been through it at the beginning of this year where they didn't require lawyers yet and it took us two months and more in phone costs to the internic's not-so-very-competent frontdesk than the actual registration fees. On the other hand, hey, it's a cool name, do you really want to give it away now because of $35? Michael -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-128 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 07:59:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27355 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt (lapsis.fisica.ist.utl.pt [193.136.197.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27350 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) Received: from localhost (gabriel@localhost) by einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25874 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:56:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:56:11 +0100 (BST) From: Jose Gabriel J Marcelino X-Sender: gabriel@einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Summer Work? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I live in Lisbon Portugal (thats near Spain for those who don't know) and this summer I would like to travel somewhere in Europe. I wonder if anyone on this list needs an extra working hand for 2 weeks during summer so I can save a few bucks. I can program Perl (CGI or system scripts, mod_perl and DBI included) and do system administration (hw/sw configurations, installations, network setup, samba and hylafax...) with Unix systems (FreeBSD being my favorite). I hoping this will be enjoyable so no Windows stuff please! (or at least minimal contact with the beast) Currently I work as sysadm at the Physics Department of the Technical Institute of Lisbon (IST) and as a partner/programmer at Maquina de Estados in Lisbon. Payment for my work can be either money or a food/place to stay combination. I can provide samples of some of my work (I've just finished my part in a big project intranet project). Thanks -- Jose Gabriel J Marcelino gabriel@maquina.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 08:55:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05885 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA05862 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z45tr-00063L-00; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:54:51 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA03347 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:53:04 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09597; Wed, 5 Aug 98 16:53:03 BST Message-Id: <35C87FB6.1A9E3BF2@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:52:22 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What's your excuse? (humour) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org TOP 20 PROGRAMMER RESPONSES WHEN THEIR PROGRAMS DON'T WORK 20. "That's weird..." 19. "It's never done that before." 18. "It worked yesterday." 17. "How is that possible?" 16. "It must be a hardware problem." 15. "What did you type in wrong to get it to crash?" 14. "There is something funky in your data." 13. "I haven't touched that module in weeks!" 12. "You must have the wrong version." 11. "It's just some unlucky coincidence." 10. "I can't test everything!" 9. "THIS can't be the source of THAT." 8. "It works, but it hasn't been tested." 7. "Somebody must have changed my code." 6. "Did you check for a virus on your system?" 5. "Even though it doesn't work, how does it feel? 4. "You can't use that version on your system." 3. "Why do you want to do it that way?" 2. "Where were you when the program blew up?" And the Number 1 Programmer Response When Their Programs Don't Work 1. "I thought I fixed that." -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Windows 95: A 32-bit graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit | | operating system originally encoded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a | | 2-bit company who can't stand 1-bit of competition. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.uk.radan.com Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 10:00:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17396 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org ([206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17368; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA04581; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199808051659.KAA04581@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:59:00 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: O'Reilly: Donation to FSF optional Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just received word from O'Reilly that the $10 donation required to attend their "Open Source Town Meeting" will be OPTIONAL. You can request that it be earmarked for other purposes. So, if you don't feel comfortable supporting the FSF (which disparages the FreeBSD effort regularly on its Web pages and in live presentations), say so! It might be worthwhile to send the message. Could someone pass the word to the Apache folks and others who don't worship the Holy GPL? ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 19:12:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07062 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-22.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.86]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16179; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35C87FB6.1A9E3BF2@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:11:06 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: arthur To: Mark Ovens Subject: RE: What's your excuse? (humour) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 21. Well it works on MY machine! On 05-Aug-98 Mark Ovens wrote: > TOP 20 PROGRAMMER RESPONSES WHEN THEIR PROGRAMS DON'T WORK > > 20. "That's weird..." > 19. "It's never done that before." > 18. "It worked yesterday." > 17. "How is that possible?" > 16. "It must be a hardware problem." > 15. "What did you type in wrong to get it to crash?" > 14. "There is something funky in your data." > 13. "I haven't touched that module in weeks!" > 12. "You must have the wrong version." > 11. "It's just some unlucky coincidence." > 10. "I can't test everything!" > 9. "THIS can't be the source of THAT." > 8. "It works, but it hasn't been tested." > 7. "Somebody must have changed my code." > 6. "Did you check for a virus on your system?" > 5. "Even though it doesn't work, how does it feel? > 4. "You can't use that version on your system." > 3. "Why do you want to do it that way?" > 2. "Where were you when the program blew up?" > > And the Number 1 Programmer Response When Their Programs Don't Work > > 1. "I thought I fixed that." > > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 5 20:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14984 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14978 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (willow22.verinet.com [199.45.181.54]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA20344; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:19:05 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02488; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:18:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Message-ID: <19980805211811.A2481@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:18:11 -0600 From: allen campbell To: arthur@col.auracom.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <35C87FB6.1A9E3BF2@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from arthur on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:11:06PM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 22. Reboot. > > 21. Well it works on MY machine! > > On 05-Aug-98 Mark Ovens wrote: > > TOP 20 PROGRAMMER RESPONSES WHEN THEIR PROGRAMS DON'T WORK > > > > 20. "That's weird..." > > 19. "It's never done that before." > > 18. "It worked yesterday." > > 17. "How is that possible?" > > 16. "It must be a hardware problem." > > 15. "What did you type in wrong to get it to crash?" > > 14. "There is something funky in your data." > > 13. "I haven't touched that module in weeks!" > > 12. "You must have the wrong version." > > 11. "It's just some unlucky coincidence." > > 10. "I can't test everything!" > > 9. "THIS can't be the source of THAT." > > 8. "It works, but it hasn't been tested." > > 7. "Somebody must have changed my code." > > 6. "Did you check for a virus on your system?" > > 5. "Even though it doesn't work, how does it feel? > > 4. "You can't use that version on your system." > > 3. "Why do you want to do it that way?" > > 2. "Where were you when the program blew up?" > > > > And the Number 1 Programmer Response When Their Programs Don't Work > > > > 1. "I thought I fixed that." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 01:53:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27601 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27574 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id KAA24409; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:45:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id KAA08350; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:23:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980806102345.A6981@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:23:45 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: allen campbell , arthur@col.auracom.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <35C87FB6.1A9E3BF2@uk.radan.com> <19980805211811.A2481@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980805211811.A2481@verinet.com>; from allen campbell on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:18:11PM -0600 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:18:11PM -0600, allen campbell wrote: > 22. Reboot. 23. Is it perhaps a hardware problem ? -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 02:10:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.craxx.com (craxx.com [195.108.198.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29586 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lva@dds.nl) Received: from uptight (classless.student.utwente.nl [130.89.230.96]) by mail.craxx.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA23334 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:10:13 +0200 From: "laurens van alphen" To: Subject: RE: What's your excuse? (humour) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:10:04 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) -- laurens van alphen craxx e-consultants alphen@craxx.com http://craxx.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 02:36:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03616 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03609 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:36:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA14819; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:36:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:36:23 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <35C87FB6.1A9E3BF2@uk.radan.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 06 Aug 1998 11:36:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:52:22 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA03611 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dag-erli@hrotti ~$ telnet bofh.engr.wisc.edu 666 | grep excuse Connection closed by foreign host. Your excuse is: You did wha... oh _dear_.... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 11:05:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20072 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20055; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:04:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20554; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:04:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:04:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: andrewr cc: Brett Glass , Robert Watson , "Jan B. Koum " , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security How-To (Was: QPopper exploit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, andrewr wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 08:48 AM 7/28/98 -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > >I heard there was a free Windows ssh client these days -- I haven't used > > >it as (oops) I don't run any Microsoft operating systems :). > > > > Anyone know where to get it? > > For a 30 day trial copy, go to www.datafellows.com and hed to their > download section. You can get a m$ copy of ssh client there. > Since we're talking trial versions... SecureCRT from www.vandyke.com -===================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet Senior Technical Support Northwest Indiana's Premium jer@jorsm.com Internet Service Provider support@jorsm.com http://www.jorsm.com -===================================================================- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 12:42:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12095 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from destiny.erols.com (destiny.erols.com [207.96.73.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12081; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdowdal@destiny.erols.com) Received: from destiny.erols.com (someone@destiny.erols.com [207.96.73.65]) by destiny.erols.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03273; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:41:15 -0400 (EDT) From: John Dowdal To: Jeremy Shaffner cc: andrewr , Brett Glass , Robert Watson , "Jan B. Koum " , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security How-To (Was: QPopper exploit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, andrewr wrote: > > > > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > At 08:48 AM 7/28/98 -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > > >I heard there was a free Windows ssh client these days -- I haven't used > > > >it as (oops) I don't run any Microsoft operating systems :). > > > > > > Anyone know where to get it? > > > > For a 30 day trial copy, go to www.datafellows.com and hed to their > > download section. You can get a m$ copy of ssh client there. > > > > Since we're talking trial versions... SecureCRT from www.vandyke.com > There is an absolutely free ssh for windows at: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ci2/ssh/ >From that web page, you need to download the current 32 or 16 bit as appropriate version of the SSH program, as well as the crypto library. The crypto library includes source. The ssh program does not include source, which does make me uncomfortable using it. To install: unzip the whole ssh archive into a directory under c:\program files\ssh, and also place the 'crypt32.dll' file from the cyrpto libary in the same directory as ssh. You do not need any other files from the crypto lib in order to use ssh. Make a shortcut in start menu. I do not endorse the use of this program; I am simply stating that it exists. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 14:45:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13928 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13743 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA15300 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:43:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Apple-Enhanced NetBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.macintouch.com - Apple is firmly committed to the BSD architecture in MacOSX using Apple enhanced NetBSD. This is great news for all BSD users in general. I wonder what the placement ads for MacOSX System Admin would look like. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 16:15:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00580 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA26250; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:44:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA11776; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:44:13 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:44:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: laurens van alphen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl>; from laurens van alphen on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:10:04AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 11:10:04 +0200, laurens van alphen wrote: > 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) What's "Service pack 3"? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 16:32:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03722 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02311; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:36:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199808062336.JAA02311@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) In-Reply-To: <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 7, 98 08:44:12 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:36:16 +1000 (EST) Cc: lva@dds.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 11:10:04 +0200, laurens van alphen wrote: > > 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) > > What's "Service pack 3"? Obviously, 25. What's "Service pack 3"? Answer: It's the thing that breaks your ability to log into a Unix system from an inferior one and causes you to fiddle around in the registry to get that ability back. And of course doing that is "not supported" and "not guaranteed to work", so if you hose yourself, tough. This is just Microsoft's way of telling you you should get out more. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 16:34:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04173 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.ainet.com (mailhub.ainet.com [204.30.40.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04043 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: from perl.ainet.com (perl.ainet.com [204.30.40.14]) by mailhub.ainet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA14320; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980806163316.007d5490@mail.ainet.com> X-Sender: jmscott@mail.ainet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:33:16 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , laurens van alphen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Joseph M. Scott" Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) In-Reply-To: <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> References: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My guess would be that they are refering to Windows NT, service pack 3, which was a big to do. ( Some where around 17 meg if I remember correctly ) Joseph Scott jmscott@ainet.com At 08:44 AM 8/7/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 11:10:04 +0200, laurens van alphen wrote: >> 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) > >What's "Service pack 3"? > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 16:50:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07820 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from proxy.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07730 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from sss ([10.0.0.43]) by proxy.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02600; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 02:49:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Message-Id: <199808062349.CAA02600@proxy.grad.kiev.ua> From: "Ruslan Shevchenko" To: "John Birrell" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: , Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 02:49:34 +0430 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interesting, than during reading this message I receive GPF. ;))) ---------- > From: John Birrell > To: Greg Lehey > Cc: lva@dds.nl; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) > Date: 07 ñåðïíÿ 1998 4:06 > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 11:10:04 +0200, laurens van alphen wrote: > > > 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) > > > > What's "Service pack 3"? > > Obviously, > > 25. What's "Service pack 3"? > > Answer: It's the thing that breaks your ability to log into a Unix system > from an inferior one and causes you to fiddle around in the registry to get > that ability back. And of course doing that is "not supported" and "not > guaranteed to work", so if you hose yourself, tough. This is just Microsoft's > way of telling you you should get out more. 8-) > > -- > John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ > CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 17:04:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10744 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10684 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA26493; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:33:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA11898; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:33:19 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980807093318.N9620@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:33:18 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ruslan Shevchenko , John Birrell Cc: lva@dds.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <199808062349.CAA02600@proxy.grad.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808062349.CAA02600@proxy.grad.kiev.ua>; from Ruslan Shevchenko on Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 02:49:34AM +0430 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 7 August 1998 at 2:49:34 +0430, Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: > ---------- >> From: John Birrell >> To: Greg Lehey >> Cc: lva@dds.nl; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >> Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) >> Date: 07 ñåðïíÿ 1998 4:06 >> >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 11:10:04 +0200, laurens van alphen > wrote: >>>> 24. Re-install service pack 3 again and see what happens ;) >>> >>> What's "Service pack 3"? >> >> Obviously, >> >> 25. What's "Service pack 3"? >> >> >> Answer: It's the thing that breaks your ability to log into a Unix >> system from an inferior one and causes you to fiddle around in the >> registry to get that ability back. And of course doing that is "not >> supported" and "not guaranteed to work", so if you hose yourself, >> tough. This is just Microsoft's way of telling you you should get >> out more. 8-) > > Interesting, than during reading this message I receive GPF. You guys keep coming up with things I don't know about. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 17:13:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12127 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11954 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA02444; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:15:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199808070015.KAA02444@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) In-Reply-To: <19980807093318.N9620@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 7, 98 09:33:18 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:15:58 +1000 (EST) Cc: Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA, jb@cimlogic.com.au, lva@dds.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Interesting, than during reading this message I receive GPF. > > You guys keep coming up with things I don't know about. That's a Guaranteed Product Failure. 8-) This tends to cause many other excuses to be used. The most common ones being: reboot, reinstall, your computer is not compatible, etc. When occurring in the kernel the message is automatically translated into a more meaningful one - the screen goes blue. This is Microsoft's way of telling you you're having a _really_ bad day, or in the case of a server, that someone was doing something really important and now they're having a _really_ bad day. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 17:15:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12402 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA26541; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:43:46 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA11929; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:43:35 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980807094334.Q9620@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:43:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell Cc: Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA, lva@dds.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <19980807093318.N9620@freebie.lemis.com> <199808070015.KAA02444@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808070015.KAA02444@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:15:58AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 7 August 1998 at 10:15:58 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Interesting, than during reading this message I receive GPF. >> >> You guys keep coming up with things I don't know about. > > That's a Guaranteed Product Failure. 8-) This tends to cause many other > excuses to be used. The most common ones being: reboot, reinstall, your > computer is not compatible, etc. When occurring in the kernel the message > is automatically translated into a more meaningful one - the screen goes > blue. This is Microsoft's way of telling you you're having a _really_ bad > day, or in the case of a server, that someone was doing something really > important and now they're having a _really_ bad day. Ah. Now I see the reverence. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 17:31:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16199 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cia.net.au ([203.17.36.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16065 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alastair@cia.com.au) Received: from clarence.progmatics.com.au ([203.28.49.193]) by cia.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA31122 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:26:10 +1000 Received: from alastair (192.168.0.67) by clarence.progmatics.com.au (Worldmail 1.3.167); 7 Aug 1998 10:29:44 +1000 Message-ID: <359F0E1C000002A7@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) X-Sender: alastair@mail.cia.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.37 (Beta) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:25:50 +1000 To: Paul Griffith From: Alastair Rankine Subject: Re: Apple-Enhanced NetBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:43 PM 6/08/98 -0400, you wrote: > >See http://www.macintouch.com > >- Apple is firmly committed to the BSD architecture in MacOSX using >Apple enhanced NetBSD. > >This is great news for all BSD users in general. I wonder what This is not great news for Mac users in general. For a summary of the issues (admittedly in the context of Rhapsody), check out: [Maybe I wouldn't be so negative if Apple hadn't dropped Open Transport a few months after my OT-based application was released...] >the placement ads for MacOSX System Admin would look like. If there are any :/ -- [ Alastair Rankine ] [ mailto:alastair@cia.com.au ] [ http://www.cia.com.au/alastair ] [ pgp5 64E4 B67C D2B7 EEC4 63C9 AA74 F63A 9AD9 E44B 21C7 ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 17:45:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18732 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18714 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA13304; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: Alastair Rankine cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple-Enhanced NetBSD In-Reply-To: <359F0E1C000002A7@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Alastair Rankine wrote: > At 05:43 PM 6/08/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > >See http://www.macintouch.com > > > >- Apple is firmly committed to the BSD architecture in MacOSX using > >Apple enhanced NetBSD. > > > >This is great news for all BSD users in general. I wonder what > > This is not great news for Mac users in general. For a summary of the > issues (admittedly in the context of Rhapsody), check out: > > ArticleDetail&-response=tb%2fItemDetail.html&-timeout=180&ArticleID=00700> > > [Maybe I wouldn't be so negative if Apple hadn't dropped Open Transport a > few months after my OT-based application was released...] > > >the placement ads for MacOSX System Admin would look like. > > If there are any :/ > > -- > [ Alastair Rankine ] [ mailto:alastair@cia.com.au ] This is a major issue for many developer. I don't know enough about writing network stacks to say why one way is better or not. Everyone seems to agree that running STREAMS, with the BSD socket API layered on top (ala Sun), would give you the best of both worlds. Apple have yet to put forth a valid reason for dropping OT. I mean they did invest all this time, money, and effort to get it to this level. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 21:47:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23050 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:47:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23045 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17383; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:47:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA16202; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:47:07 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:47:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199808070447.WAA16202@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: joelh@gnu.org Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <199808062321.SAA01224@detlev.UUCP> References: <19980806112955.A4299@reilly.home> <199808060606.XAA22855@usr09.primenet.com> <199808061438.IAA12182@mt.sri.com> <199808062321.SAA01224@detlev.UUCP> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat ] > > I know, I've tried and have benchmarks to prove it. Using 100% of > > the CPU for minutes at a time, I still get the GC kicking in using > > Sun's JVM implementation. (The M$ implementation is notorious for > > doing bad things since it uses a different reaping technology, so > > it's much less useful for programs that make heavy use of 'new'.) > > Is there some sort of irony in M$ not working well with memory-hungry > programs? It's not necessarily memory-hungry programs, but highly dynamic programs. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 6 21:58:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24635 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:57:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12657; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:57:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199808070457.VAA12657@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: addendum to How do you get crack to compile? In-Reply-To: <839A86AB6CE4D111A52200104B938D4303D1E0.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@MOE> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <839A86AB6CE4D111A52200104B938D4303D1E0.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@MOE> you write: >Oh, I did a "make spotless" and tried >"Crack -fmt freebsd password-file" >and got the following output: So, just for everyone's information... a recent bill passed both the Senate and House that, among other things, makes it illegal to develop, sell, or use "technology" that can break encryption or copy protection. Once this bill is signed, crack will be highly illegal in the US. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 00:27:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15566 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15534 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id JAA06741; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:26:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:26:19 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: John Birrell Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA, lva@dds.nl, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <199808070015.KAA02444@cimlogic.com.au> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 07 Aug 1998 09:26:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Birrell's message of "Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:15:58 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA15555 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Birrell writes: > That's a Guaranteed Product Failure. 8-) This tends to cause many other > excuses to be used. The most common ones being: reboot, reinstall, your > computer is not compatible, etc. When occurring in the kernel the message > is automatically translated into a more meaningful one - the screen goes > blue. This is Microsoft's way of telling you you're having a _really_ bad > day, or in the case of a server, that someone was doing something really > important and now they're having a _really_ bad day. ...and are going to take it out on you. "Save yourself. Install FreeBSD today." DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 03:30:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15217 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA15197; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA24290; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:28:57 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: John Birrell Cc: dfr@nlsystems.com, dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/conf GENERIC References: <199808071027.UAA04599@cimlogic.com.au> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 07 Aug 1998 12:28:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Birrell's message of "Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA15213 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat from -committers] John Birrell writes: > Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Well, I work at Schlumberger Geco-Prakla¹, but have never heard that > > term :) Besides, they have these QHSE posters all over the place > > proclaiming a "no blame" policy... when you shoot yourself in the > > foot, just point to the nearest QHSE poster :) > I should have specified Wireline Engineers. 8-) No blame, eh? They > used to fire anyone who either (a) had a driving accident; or (b) had > a mis-fire when using explosives to perforate a well. They're still pretty rabid about accidents (they have other QHSE posters all over the place with photographs and schematics of accidents involving Schlumberger employees) but I don't think they actually fire people for that (unless it's a case of drunk driving or something). And I can understand the part about wells; you don't get a second chance with those things. If you blow your charges to high up in the well, you're pretty likely to flood the reservoir and lose a couple of hundred billion dollars' worth of oil or gas, not to mention waste the entire exploration and drilling costs. Then again, I've been told the European region is more lax with these things (and discipline in general) than the American region, so YMMV. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 03:34:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15573 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:34:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA15540 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:34:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA04668; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:39:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199808071039.UAA04668@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/conf GENERIC In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= at "Aug 7, 98 12:28:56 pm" To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:39:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > They're still pretty rabid about accidents (they have other QHSE > posters all over the place with photographs and schematics of > accidents involving Schlumberger employees) but I don't think they > actually fire people for that (unless it's a case of drunk driving or > something). And I can understand the part about wells; you don't get a > second chance with those things. If you blow your charges to high up > in the well, you're pretty likely to flood the reservoir and lose a > couple of hundred billion dollars' worth of oil or gas, not to mention > waste the entire exploration and drilling costs. > > Then again, I've been told the European region is more lax with these > things (and discipline in general) than the American region, so YMMV. This was in South-East Asia (Japan, China, Phillipines, Malaysia). -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 03:43:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16475 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16454 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id MAA29822 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:43:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (VMailer, from userid 101) id 6886A1527; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:10:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19980807121018.A4151@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:10:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> <3.0.5.32.19980806163316.007d5490@mail.ainet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980806163316.007d5490@mail.ainet.com>; from Joseph M. Scott on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 04:33:16PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4527 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Joseph M. Scott: > My guess would be that they are refering to Windows NT, service pack 3, > which was a big to do. ( Some where around 17 meg if I remember > correctly ) 45 MB. That you must reinstall each time you install a new program because that new program generally replace other DLL. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #62: Mon Jul 27 20:47:08 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 03:43:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16548 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16491 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id MAA29823 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:43:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (VMailer, from userid 101) id 227B91527; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:17:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19980807121746.B4151@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:17:46 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: addendum to How do you get crack to compile? Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <839A86AB6CE4D111A52200104B938D4303D1E0.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@MOE> <199808070457.VAA12657@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <199808070457.VAA12657@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:57:44PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4527 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Sean Eric Fagan: > So, just for everyone's information... a recent bill passed both the Senate > and House that, among other things, makes it illegal to develop, sell, or use > "technology" that can break encryption or copy protection. Last time I heard about it, it was still in House. Now, you're telling us it passed ? :-( > Once this bill is signed, crack will be highly illegal in the US. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #62: Mon Jul 27 20:47:08 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 05:16:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26453 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26448 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA11045; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:15:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:15:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Ollivier Robert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: addendum to How do you get crack to compile? In-Reply-To: <19980807121746.B4151@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org crack is not highly illegal on free source OS's like FreeBSD, NetBSD or anything that you have the source to the encryption algorithm anyway, this was meant to impose greater penalties for crackers and "hackers" that are malevolent. I read the text of the bill, the one Revised and dubbed "Digital Millennium" and it did not seem all that bad, in fact in some sense it was rather comforting, it did not say that finding security holes was illegal, it said that doing so against a company by selling reverse engineered work, and therefor violating copyrights was. The law was a copyright law, one meant for warez , etc. How this affects my personal hobby of encoding music on mp3.... well I cannot distribute it for profit =) not like I was anyway =) ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Sean Eric Fagan: > > So, just for everyone's information... a recent bill passed both the Senate > > and House that, among other things, makes it illegal to develop, sell, or use > > "technology" that can break encryption or copy protection. > > Last time I heard about it, it was still in House. Now, you're telling us > it passed ? :-( > > > Once this bill is signed, crack will be highly illegal in the US. > > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #62: Mon Jul 27 20:47:08 CEST 1998 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 05:41:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28908 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA28879 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z4lou-0003S7-00; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:40:32 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA02607; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:39:43 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08332; Fri, 7 Aug 98 13:39:41 BST Message-Id: <35CAF563.7A4FB0D2@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 13:38:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> <3.0.5.32.19980806163316.007d5490@mail.ainet.com> <19980807121018.A4151@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Joseph M. Scott: > > My guess would be that they are refering to Windows NT, service pack 3, > > which was a big to do. ( Some where around 17 meg if I remember > > correctly ) > > 45 MB. What a waste of 45MB. You could get a fully working install of FreeBSD in less than M$ needs for its bug fixes(?) > That you must reinstall each time you install a new program because > that new program generally replace other DLL. How big is SP4? That will be needed to make NT Y2K compliant!! > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #62: Mon Jul 27 20:47:08 CEST 1998 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Black holes: Where God divided by zero Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.uk.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 08:12:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picasso.tellique.de (picasso.tellique.de [62.144.106.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20337 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:12:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by picasso.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17333; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:11:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <35CB1A8B.48A42D80@tellique.de> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:17:31 +0200 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's your excuse? (humour) References: <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <000a01bdc119$fff3c1b0$0a00a8c0@uptight.student.utwente.nl> <19980807084412.I9620@freebie.lemis.com> <3.0.5.32.19980806163316.007d5490@mail.ainet.com> <19980807121018.A4151@keltia.freenix.fr> <35CAF563.7A4FB0D2@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > How big is SP4? That will be needed to make NT Y2K compliant!! No, everybody will be using NT 5 by then, so there's no need for a fix. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 09:04:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27266 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27248 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21750; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:04:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA18835; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:04:10 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:04:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199808071604.KAA18835@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <199808070754.AAA24074@usr08.primenet.com> References: <199808070446.WAA16195@mt.sri.com> <199808070754.AAA24074@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat ] > > On the palm pilot, you couldn't allocate 1M of stuff in that short of > > time. :) > > > > (The stuff I'm allocating is about 500-1MB/object, so your point is > > truly moot. Especially considering the footprint of my entire program > > is around 60-70MB.) > > > > Don't ask like an expert on something you have no idea on. > > You shouldn't either How much real Java programming have you done? You have *no* clue what the GC in Java is like. Do you even own a pilot? Have you even attempted to run a Java VM on it? Do you like making up problems that don't exist, so that you can look smart? Do you like changing the subject in the middle of the discussion to try and be right? Never in your statement was there a mention of a palm pilot. The statement was: > JAVA has a nasty tendency to leak like a sieve until the GC hits a > steady state. As does Modula 3. This is catagorically wrong, and shows your ignorance of both Java and GC techniques in both languages. My statement based on 2 years experience with Java is that this is not an issue at all, and the most *worst case* I've even seen in Java is about 2 * 500K-1MB objects not being GC'd in about 1 second on a heavily loaded (~100% CPU) bound machine. This is not 'leaking live a sieve', as you so ignorantly put. Finally, I have *also* seen Java run on the Pilot. I'll say it again that it isn't real (yet). Maybe in time, but not yet. The screen/GUI interface is one of the limiting factors. You were wrong, and even more so changed the subject in mid-stream and still were wrong. You have yet to admit wrongness in any discussion, but its fun to watch you dance around trying to be right in the process as you change the subject and the entire focus of the discussion. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 09:37:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03453 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03446 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22003; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:37:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19141; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:37:22 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:37:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199808071637.KAA19141@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <199808070157.SAA26484@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199808061603.JAA26197@austin.polstra.com> <199808070157.SAA26484@usr06.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moving to -chat again ] > > > JAVA has a nasty tendency to leak like a sieve until the GC hits a > > > steady state. As does Modula 3. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > I don't know what you base that statement on. I have a lot of > > experience writing and using Modula-3 programs, and I've never > > observed the behavior you describe. > > Q1: Is there more than 0 bytes difference between memory > allocated and in use? Are you talking theoretically, or in actual use? Given that Modula-3 and Java are close cousins, I can say with assurance that *most* programs that are highly dynamic (C-use malloc alot, Java-use new alot) use less memory than their appropriate C counterpart, because the GC is *more* effecient than the C programmer at getting rid of unused memory. So in fact, there is *less* memory in use than in a C program. > Q2: If so, how large can this number be under the worst > possible conditions? If you are really careful in C, this number can be larger in Java (and Modula-3 I suspect) by at most the amount of memory you can allocate in 100ms. In C this # would the amount of memory you can allocate in one realloc before the following free is called, so I suspect the results are simliar. > Q3: Is this more memory than is typically found in a > typical embedded ssytem, such as the one found in a > Microwave oven? This is irrelevant to the discussion, since the size/type of the objects being allocated in both applications will be relevant to the embedded system. > Q4: What is the typical target platform for an RT OS, and what > is one of the major target platforms for JAVA? A small (1-2MB memory) box. That is what Personal Java is targetted for. Note, the problem with Java (I can speak for Modula-3 here) in many embedded systems is *NOT* the memory use (far from it), but the timing issues. Java provides no real-hard time response to signals, and really has no way for external inputs to happen in any speed. For a really good discussion of this check out the advanced-java archives on xcf.berkeley.edu from a year or more ago. It has been discussed to death there. > Q5: How provable is a system that depends on garbage collection? They are in use today, being sold as consumer items to real people for real problems. Again, you are obviously speaking out of ignorance, and should go read up on both Java and Modula-3, Garbage collection techniques, and object oriented programming in your spare time. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 14:52:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02761 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25799; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:52:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd025755; Fri Aug 7 14:52:15 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29583; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:52:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199808072152.OAA29583@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:52:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199808071604.KAA18835@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Aug 7, 98 10:04:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > On the palm pilot, you couldn't allocate 1M of stuff in that short of > > > time. :) > > > > > > (The stuff I'm allocating is about 500-1MB/object, so your point is > > > truly moot. Especially considering the footprint of my entire program > > > is around 60-70MB.) > > > > > > Don't ask like an expert on something you have no idea on. > > > > You shouldn't either > > How much real Java programming have you done? I have reimplemented most of java.* and a lot of javax.* in C++. I am familiar with the interfaces, and, yes, I have done some JAVA programming (I got my JAVA source license back when it was free only a short while after you did). > You have *no* clue what the GC in Java is like. Let's reorganize this tirade a little: > The statement was: > > > JAVA has a nasty tendency to leak like a sieve until the GC hits a > > steady state. As does Modula 3. Let's repeat part of it again, since you appear to have missed it: > > until the GC hits a steady state. Let's repeat it in uppercase: > > UNTIL THE GC HITS A STEADY STATE. Now let's repeat one of your statements: > *worst case* I've even seen in Java is about 2 * 500K-1MB objects not > being GC'd in about 1 second on a heavily loaded (~100% CPU) bound > machine. Sounds like "a steady state"; specifically, it sounds like a steady state of the class "pool retention time based recovery latency". > This is not 'leaking live a sieve', as you so ignorantly put. No, this is 'leaking like a sieve until the GC hits a steady state'; it is *you* who 'so ignorantly' took a portion of my statement out of the context of its limitation criteria to make it look like I was somehow claiming an implementation bug that doesn't exist instead of a language design bug that does (to wit, the reliance on garbage collection). > Do you even own a pilot? I run "xcopilot"; does that count, or do I have to be able to write in grafitti with a stylus for it to count? > Have you even attempted to run a Java VM on it? No. The memory is too small, given the largest possible anount of uncollected memory no longer in use. See my previous posts, and this time, read them instead of merely reacting to them. I've run *compiled* JAVA code (via Greg Hewgill's "JUMP") on the copilot, though. > Do you like making up problems that don't exist, so that you can > look smart? No. I like finding problems that do exist, however. > Do you like changing the subject in the middle of the discussion to > try and be right? No. I like to give specific examples when something I state is a problem is dismissed out of hand by people merely because they have a religious investment in my statement being wrong because it challenges a decision they've already made and their mind is too closed to allow them to reexamine their past decisions objectively. Hopefully, the example will give them the nudge they need to relent and perform the examination. > Never in your statement was there a mention of a palm pilot. The > statement was: > > > JAVA has a nasty tendency to leak like a sieve until the GC hits a > > steady state. As does Modula 3. You're right. This statement shows concern for memory footprint, without identifying the source of the concern. I didn't specifically state "palm pilot" as one of my reasons for concern. > This is catagorically wrong, and shows your ignorance of both Java and > GC techniques in both languages. Obviously I disagree with you (big surprise). > Finally, I have *also* seen Java run on the Pilot. I'll say it again > that it isn't real (yet). Maybe in time, but not yet. The screen/GUI > interface is one of the limiting factors. I'd be interested in where you saw this; I've only seen a bytecode to 68k assembly translator for running JAVA on the palmpilot (or in my case, xcopilot). > You were wrong, and even more so changed the subject in mid-stream and > still were wrong. This is BS. I gave a concern, was bitched at that it wasn't really a concern, replied with a concrete example of why it was a concern for me and *should* be a concern for others. Then I had my throat jumped down by the person who bitched that it wasn't a concern that I was somehow "changing the subject" by virtue of giving concrete examples that contradicted their claims. > You have yet to admit wrongness in any discussion, but its fun to > watch you dance around trying to be right in the process as you > change the subject and the entire focus of the discussion. This is utter BS. I have admitted my errors on both the FreeBSD lists and on Usenet. I admit my errors when I am shown to be in error. Search the archives of both, if you don't believe me. I am actually more forthright in this than most people I know. I have exactly two issues pending that I know about: my probably incorrect characterization of the FreeBSD swap pager, which I have already stated I would have to ask John Dyson about, and that David's statements had made me unsure, and a long Usenet posting that I haven't had time to reply to Caspar Dik about regarding the newer than I was aware of RT capabilities of Solaris (it would be unfair to not correct myself in the same forum in which I made the error; I just haven't had time to write it all out, since I want to be very precise on this one: older Solaris didn't have RT features). PS: Now who is trying to change the subject away from GC'ing being a bad idea? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 14:57:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03410 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03379 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24340; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:56:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21693; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:56:58 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:56:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199808072156.PAA21693@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <199808072152.OAA29583@usr02.primenet.com> References: <199808071604.KAA18835@mt.sri.com> <199808072152.OAA29583@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Let's repeat part of it again, since you appear to have missed it: > > > > until the GC hits a steady state. > > Let's repeat it in uppercase: > > > > UNTIL THE GC HITS A STEADY STATE. > > Now let's repeat one of your statements: > > > *worst case* I've even seen in Java is about 2 * 500K-1MB objects not > > being GC'd in about 1 second on a heavily loaded (~100% CPU) bound > > machine. > > Sounds like "a steady state"; specifically, it sounds like a steady state > of the class "pool retention time based recovery latency". There is no 'steady state' in Java. It's a regular occurance that occurs all the time. > > This is not 'leaking live a sieve', as you so ignorantly put. > > No, this is 'leaking like a sieve until the GC hits a steady state'; See above. > it is *you* who 'so ignorantly' took a portion of my statement out > of the context of its limitation criteria to make it look like I > was somehow claiming an implementation bug that doesn't exist instead > of a language design bug that does (to wit, the reliance on garbage > collection). See above. You imply a functionality in the VM that doesn't exist. > > Do you even own a pilot? > > I run "xcopilot" So, you don't own a pilot. > > Have you even attempted to run a Java VM on it? > > No. The memory is too small. No, it's not. Java runs fine on it, but its useless for anything significant. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 15:18:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06730 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09198; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:18:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd009147; Fri Aug 7 15:18:12 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01251; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:18:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199808072218.PAA01251@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:18:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jdp@polstra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199808071637.KAA19141@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Aug 7, 98 10:37:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Q1: Is there more than 0 bytes difference between memory > > allocated and in use? > > Are you talking theoretically, or in actual use? Given that Modula-3 > and Java are close cousins, I can say with assurance that *most* > programs that are highly dynamic (C-use malloc alot, Java-use new alot) > use less memory than their appropriate C counterpart, because the GC is > *more* effecient than the C programmer at getting rid of unused memory. > > So in fact, there is *less* memory in use than in a C program. I don't think the GC is more efficient than the programmer, unless we are talking about a lazy programmer, or we are talking about scope restriction and large auto variables (where the compiler notes the variable is not being used and explicitly sends it out of scope after its last use instead of at the end of the function where the programmer explicitly states the function scope has ended). Even so, I would claim that the use of large auto variables is in fact a coding error, since it presumes, perhaps incorrectly, a large stack. Assuming a large stack is as bad as assuming a large heap, in my book. > > Q2: If so, how large can this number be under the worst > > possible conditions? > > If you are really careful in C, this number can be larger in Java (and > Modula-3 I suspect) by at most the amount of memory you can allocate in > 100ms. In C this # would the amount of memory you can allocate in one > realloc before the following free is called, so I suspect the results > are simliar. This is exactly my concern with GC'ing: how big a memory bubble it is possible to float. You *could* tie the act of allocation to the act of GC'ing (many LISP reclaimer implementations did this), which could give you a virtual working set quota (almost), but this is really a kludge. > > Q3: Is this more memory than is typically found in a > > typical embedded ssytem, such as the one found in a > > Microwave oven? > > This is irrelevant to the discussion, since the size/type of the objects > being allocated in both applications will be relevant to the embedded > system. It was merely an example of an embedded system with traditionally tight memory which you might want to put a JAVA-based UI on (this is especially true if the alternative were Windows CE... 8-)). If you prefer, I can re-ask it as "What is the smallest memory footprint in which I can reasonable expect to be able to run?". > > Q4: What is the typical target platform for an RT OS, and what > > is one of the major target platforms for JAVA? > > A small (1-2MB memory) box. That is what Personal Java is targetted > for. Note, the problem with Java (I can speak for Modula-3 here) in > many embedded systems is *NOT* the memory use (far from it), but the > timing issues. Java provides no real-hard time response to signals, and > really has no way for external inputs to happen in any speed. If you were to do as I suggested, above, and tie allocation to the GC to reduce maximum pool size, the performance would be even worse, unfortunately, since you would eat intermittent GC latencies. 8-(. I think using a non-JVM based JAVA (ie: a JAVA chip) would go a long way toward alleviating this. > For a really good discussion of this check out the advanced-java > archives on xcf.berkeley.edu from a year or more ago. It has been > discussed to death there. Thanks. I have archived this location for later reference. > > Q5: How provable is a system that depends on garbage collection? > > They are in use today, being sold as consumer items to real people for > real problems. > > Again, you are obviously speaking out of ignorance, and should go read > up on both Java and Modula-3, Garbage collection techniques, and object > oriented programming in your spare time. "Provable", not "probable". That was not a typo. I am speaking of correctness proofs. I'll answer it for you: adding async resource recovery to any system makes it much harder to prove (ie: determinism, ensuring failsafe, and fault tolerance, standard requirements placed on embedded systems). Even with that last snipe, this is a much more productive discussion than the other. Thank you. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 15:50:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12292 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:50:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12287 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24728; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:50:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22022; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:50:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:50:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199808072250.QAA22022@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jdp@polstra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <199808072218.PAA01251@usr02.primenet.com> References: <199808071637.KAA19141@mt.sri.com> <199808072218.PAA01251@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Q1: Is there more than 0 bytes difference between memory > > > allocated and in use? > > > > Are you talking theoretically, or in actual use? Given that Modula-3 > > and Java are close cousins, I can say with assurance that *most* > > programs that are highly dynamic (C-use malloc alot, Java-use new alot) > > use less memory than their appropriate C counterpart, because the GC is > > *more* effecient than the C programmer at getting rid of unused memory. > > > > So in fact, there is *less* memory in use than in a C program. > > I don't think the GC is more efficient than the programmer, unless > we are talking about a lazy programmer, or we are talking about > scope restriction and large auto variables (where the compiler > notes the variable is not being used and explicitly sends it out > of scope after its last use instead of at the end of the function > where the programmer explicitly states the function scope has ended). *Right* And you've never written a program that leaked memory, nor had *any* errors due to malloc/free problems, or dealt with them. If you can say that every program you ever written that used dynamic memory has never had problems, then I don't believe you. Because there are problems, a GC scheme can (and oftentimes) does a better job because it keeps track of things for you. Studies have shown this to be true. > Even so, I would claim that the use of large auto variables is in > fact a coding error, since it presumes, perhaps incorrectly, a > large stack. Assuming a large stack is as bad as assuming a large > heap, in my book. Huh? Who said anything about large auto variable, and or a large heap. Again, you're jumping to conclusions w/out any basis on anything. > > > Q2: If so, how large can this number be under the worst > > > possible conditions? > > > > If you are really careful in C, this number can be larger in Java (and > > Modula-3 I suspect) by at most the amount of memory you can allocate in > > 100ms. In C this # would the amount of memory you can allocate in one > > realloc before the following free is called, so I suspect the results > > are simliar. > > This is exactly my concern with GC'ing: how big a memory bubble it > is possible to float. Depends on too many things. In C the same problems exist with 'free' as well. Does the free implementation return it immediately to the OS, or just back onto the free list? Again, you can't say GC is worse than malloc/free in C, since both are *very* implementation and even OS dependant. > > > Q3: Is this more memory than is typically found in a > > > typical embedded ssytem, such as the one found in a > > > Microwave oven? > > > > This is irrelevant to the discussion, since the size/type of the objects > > being allocated in both applications will be relevant to the embedded > > system. > > It was merely an example of an embedded system with traditionally > tight memory which you might want to put a JAVA-based UI on (this > is especially true if the alternative were Windows CE... 8-)). I suspect a Java-based UI would be much smaller than a comparable Windows-CE based UI on it, but given that the pilot already has a working OS that is smaller than both this is really a moot point. > If you prefer, I can re-ask it as "What is the smallest memory > footprint in which I can reasonable expect to be able to run?". Depends on what you want to do? Do you want *everything* that I have on my FreeBSD/X box? > > > Q5: How provable is a system that depends on garbage collection? > > > > They are in use today, being sold as consumer items to real people for > > real problems. > > > > Again, you are obviously speaking out of ignorance, and should go read > > up on both Java and Modula-3, Garbage collection techniques, and object > > oriented programming in your spare time. > > "Provable", not "probable". That was not a typo. I am speaking of > correctness proofs. You can't 'prove' anything significant. You *can* prove that the GC system will work, as many have done. Check out any of the Boem (sp?) stuff on Xerox-Parc's WWW site. > I'll answer it for you: adding async resource recovery to any system > makes it much harder to prove (ie: determinism, ensuring failsafe, > and fault tolerance, standard requirements placed on embedded systems). Right, as as another poster already pointed out, once you start doing dynamic memory allocation (in either C, C++, or Java), all provability bets are off. As I stated before, GC isn't the problem here, the problem is timing and availability of resources. The previous poster already mentioned it, but I'll repeat what he said (much better than I). A language developered around GC system actually does things better than C's malloc/free and C++ new/delete, in that it can coalesce (sp?) objects around to make bigger holes, plus it can potentially free up more memory than the programmer is aware of. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 15:54:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12957 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12944 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24755; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:54:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22055; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:53:59 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:53:59 -0600 Message-Id: <199808072253.QAA22055@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Archie Cobbs , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PHK needs a vacation (Re: memory leaks in libc) In-Reply-To: <3224.902516512@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <199808071712.KAA29716@bubba.whistle.com> <3224.902516512@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moving to -chat ] > > Would this thread please DROP DEAD preferably RIGHT NOW! > > THANKYOU! This has been typical of your responses to anything you disagree with lately, so my feeling is that you need to spend more time with your family and less time arguing about subjects you care so little for. If it means so little to you, ignore it. You're being an ass and making FreeBSD look bad. You'll come up with some smart-alek comment that'll make you feel better about yourself by putting me down, but it won't matter since you're the one acting rude and unprofessional. Go take a vacation! Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 21:26:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26571 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26566 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:26:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05589; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:25:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35CBD340.86A928C9@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 22:25:36 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: Terry Lambert , jdp@polstra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS References: <199808071637.KAA19141@mt.sri.com> <199808072218.PAA01251@usr02.primenet.com> <199808072250.QAA22022@mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the course of Nate and Terry ranting back and forth about memory allocators and garbage collectors, Nate Williams wrote: > *Right* And you've never written a program that leaked memory, nor had > *any* errors due to malloc/free problems, or dealt with them. > > If you can say that every program you ever written that used dynamic > memory has never had problems, then I don't believe you. Because there > are problems, a GC scheme can (and oftentimes) does a better job because > it keeps track of things for you. Studies have shown this to be true. I have written *several* programs, systems really, that don't leak memory. We prove this by running them at 95+% usage for 30 days at a time and monitor the memory usage. Since these are embedded systems, if they leak, they eventually crash. It is *not* true that every C or C++ program leaks memory, as each of these systems was implemented in C and/or C++ (running on VxWorks). The only way to guarantee your system doesn't leak is by inspecting every memory allocation and ascertaining that it has a balancing release, via every possible exit out of the code. This is time-consuming and mind boggling work. A distant second is to instrument your memory allocator and run the hell out of the system, while monitoring the memory usage. Nate makes a very valid point, that most C/C++, and even UNIX programmers seem to miss. We're willing to use software to optimize our programs, compile them from high-level languages to machine code, and in some cases, even generate the program source from pictures we draw, but not to use software to make memory allocation easier, or less error-prone? This is truly silly. I suggest all of those arguing the evils of garbage collectors go read the excellent series of columns written by P.J. Plaugher on this exact topic in Embedded System Programming earlier this year. Regardless of your "embeddedness" this is an excellent education in why garbage collectors are here to stay, and why they will become more common in future systems. Please note that P.J. wrote this series of columns as he was designing and developing a garbage collection system for embedded C++ programs; he wasn't just "winging it." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 7 22:22:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02073 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02068 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27269; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:22:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA23668; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:21:59 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:21:59 -0600 Message-Id: <199808080521.XAA23668@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wes Peters Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , jdp@polstra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Heads up on LFS In-Reply-To: <35CBD340.86A928C9@softweyr.com> References: <199808071637.KAA19141@mt.sri.com> <199808072218.PAA01251@usr02.primenet.com> <199808072250.QAA22022@mt.sri.com> <35CBD340.86A928C9@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > *Right* And you've never written a program that leaked memory, nor had > > *any* errors due to malloc/free problems, or dealt with them. > > > > If you can say that every program you ever written that used dynamic > > memory has never had problems, then I don't believe you. ... > I have written *several* programs, systems really, that don't leak > memory. I never said it couldn't be done, I said that it isn't *always* done, and it takes alot of time/effort to do right. > We prove this by running them at 95+% usage for 30 days at a time and > monitor the memory usage. Since these are embedded systems, if they leak, > they eventually crash. It is *not* true that every C or C++ program > leaks memory, as each of these systems was implemented in C and/or C++ > (running on VxWorks). I'm sorry if I made the impression that it's impossile to right a correct program. However, it is difficult to do so, so *very few* programs behave 100% correctly, especially so when you use C++, which makes it really easy to leak memory if you use some of the more esoteric features. Basically, you're helping make my point. It's *hard* to write 100% correct highly dynamic *real* systems using malloc/free. However, it's *MUCH EASIER* to write 100% correct highly dynamic programs using a GC system. The same problems plague both of them in embedded systems (wanting a resource and it not there to get), but the GC version has an advantage of being eaiser to get right w/out trying real hard, and the C/C++ version has the advantage of being *slightly* better at managing resources if you try *real* hard. If you're willing to work that hard for your performance, why not use hand-coded assembly. It's essentially the same thing. If you need the absolute bare-metal performance, then the only way to get it is to get down to the bare-metal. The choice of memory allocations is so far up on the list of things to worry about that it's simply not worth worrying (or for that matter arguing) about. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 00:53:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15395 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15384 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04757; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:50:03 +0200 (CEST) To: Nate Williams cc: Archie Cobbs , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PHK needs a vacation (Re: memory leaks in libc) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:53:59 MDT." <199808072253.QAA22055@mt.sri.com> Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:50:00 +0200 Message-ID: <4755.902562600@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199808072253.QAA22055@mt.sri.com>, Nate Williams writes: >[ Moving to -chat ] > >> >> Would this thread please DROP DEAD preferably RIGHT NOW! >> >> THANKYOU! > >This has been typical of your responses to anything you disagree with >lately, so my feeling is that you need to spend more time with your >family and less time arguing about subjects you care so little for. > >If it means so little to you, ignore it. You're being an ass and making >FreeBSD look bad. You'll come up with some smart-alek comment that'll >make you feel better about yourself by putting me down, but it won't >matter since you're the one acting rude and unprofessional. Nate, this is only the third time the "Setenv leaks memory!!!" thread has surfaced in 3 years. Everytime we end up the same place: if we modify the API's behaviour, we break running code, QED: we don't. That's why I ask for the thread to die. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 11:52:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12307 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12301 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA29566 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:51:52 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id LAA22149 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:48:43 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: What is the handle good for? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As you may know, I have this domain. My handle is jw2691. What is this for? Is it just an account number? Is it like a radio handle? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 14:19:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26387 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26364; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA08553; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 07:19:02 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980809071859.00153@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 07:18:59 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Open Systems Networking Cc: Dusk Auriel Sykotik , Charlie Root , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A CRAZY idea References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 03:13:12PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 03:13:12PM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > TAKEN OFF CURRENT WHERE IT DOESNT BELONG Hey! Who opened that door? We're trying to study in peace here. Please don't attempt to insult us by throwing your brawls at -newbies! We don't want to know about it, and we're learning that we don't have to. Take your petty bickering to -chat, or better, kiss and make up. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 14:27:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26984 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA22705; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 17:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 17:24:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Sue Blake cc: Dusk Auriel Sykotik , Charlie Root , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A CRAZY idea In-Reply-To: <19980809071859.00153@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > Take your petty bickering to -chat, or better, kiss and make up. Your right sue i should have thrown it to -chat, again acting before thinking. My apologies to -newbies. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 18:13:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20279 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05484; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:42:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA24736; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:42:31 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980809104231.Q14475@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:42:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: What is the handle good for? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 11:48:43AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 8 August 1998 at 11:48:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > As you may know, I have this domain. > > My handle is jw2691. What is this for? Is it just an account number? Is it > like a radio handle? It's just an easy, unique way to identify you: === root@razzia (/dev/ttyp1) /usr/home/vinum/userland 6 -> whois jw2691 wells, jason (JW2691) jcwells@U.WASHINGTON.EDU High Performance Net 3801 Brooklyn Ave NE APT. L406D Seattle, WA 98105 206-633-5994 Record last updated on 11-Sep-96. Database last updated on 7-Aug-98 04:32:37 EDT. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 8 18:28:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21428 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21403 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05475; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:14 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA24675; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:12 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980809104012.P14475@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: djv@bedford.net, Brandon Lockhart Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD References: <199808081112.HAA05016@lucy.bedford.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808081112.HAA05016@lucy.bedford.net>; from CyberPeasant on Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 07:12:01AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Saturday, 8 August 1998 at 7:12:01 -0400, CyberPeasant wrote: > Brandon Lockhart wrote: >> >> You can only have >> one operating system loaded at a single point in time (correct me if I am >> wrong). > > You're wrong :) The IBM mainframe OS, MVS, will run several OS's on > the same machine, simultaneously. Each user gets his own OS. This > is very cool... Nowadays the operating system is called OS/390, also known as UNIX 95. I thought it was VM that ran multiple operating systems, not MVS. > It does this by presenting the user with a complete virutal machine > (registers, memory, IO devices, ...) on which the user can load > another operating system. or, for real sport, another copy of MVS > itself, which then would create virtual virtual machines for virtual > users... Each user has a rather complete illusion that he is the > sole user of the machine. > > Moreover, MVS runs like a bat out of hell. First I've heard of it. I haven't been keeping much track of the 360 family in the last 10 years or so, but before that they were decidedly CPU bound. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message