From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 13 23:49:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:49:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18315 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA31544; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:30:05 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA13603; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:30:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:29:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat cc: Ken Keeler Subject: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article In-Reply-To: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before complete instability occured. What a horrible waste of time. Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his litte winky eye. Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my life easier. Emacs, Tex, here I come! Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 00:10:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21165 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:10:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21155 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA23790; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:39:31 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA91521; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:39:06 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:39:05 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Cc: Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 13 December 1998 at 23:29:40 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > complete instability occured. > > What a horrible waste of time. > > Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > litte winky eye. > > Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > > The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > > A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > life easier. > > Emacs, Tex, Don't go overboard. Emacs, OK, but TeX might help you find positive things about Microsoft Wart. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 00:22:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22624 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:22:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22616 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA16933; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:21:19 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA25368; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:21:00 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:21:00 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article In-Reply-To: <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 13 December 1998 at 23:29:40 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > > produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > > hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > > pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > > crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > > complete instability occured. > > > > What a horrible waste of time. > > > >Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > > Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > > litte winky eye. > > > > Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > > > > The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > > learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > > > > A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > > me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > > life easier. > > > > Emacs, Tex, > > Don't go overboard. Emacs, OK, but TeX might help you find positive > things about Microsoft Wart. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > I'd say you weren't too far: I use Xemacs + LaTeX for practicaly all of my writing (except for Hebrew, but luckily for you, that's probably not a problem for you :-) ). Especially if you write scientific stuff (which, by your .sig, I'd suspect you are) there's nothing that beats LaTeX. At least in our discipline (Computer Science), LaTeX is the Lingua Franca for all scientific work. I'd say reading/writing LaTeX source code is practicaly a requirement for being a researcher in theoretical CS. The standard reference on it (Leslie Lamport's book) is, well, not easy to read, but it's still worth the effort (and I heard there are other good books for it). Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 00:27:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23496 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23466 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA23936; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:57:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA86434; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:57:17 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981214185716.H17075@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:57:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Nadav Eiron Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Holy Wars (was: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article) References: <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nadav Eiron on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:21:00AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 10:21:00 +0200, Nadav Eiron wrote: > On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sunday, 13 December 1998 at 23:29:40 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >>> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced >>> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my >>> life easier. >>> >>> Emacs, Tex, >> >> Don't go overboard. Emacs, OK, but TeX might help you find positive >> things about Microsoft Wart. > > I'd say you weren't too far: I use Xemacs + LaTeX for practicaly all of my > writing (except for Hebrew, but luckily for you, that's probably not a > problem for you :-) ). I'm sure Hebrew's more of a problem for me than it is for you :-) > Especially if you write scientific stuff (which, by your .sig, I'd > suspect you are) there's nothing that beats LaTeX. At least in our > discipline (Computer Science), LaTeX is the Lingua Franca for all > scientific work. I'd say reading/writing LaTeX source code is > practicaly a requirement for being a researcher in theoretical > CS. The standard reference on it (Leslie Lamport's book) is, well, > not easy to read, but it's still worth the effort (and I heard there > are other good books for it). I used LaTeX years ago, before I gave it up for TeX. When I wrote my first book, O'Reilly asked me to write it in troff, which I did after some objections. To my astonishment, it was *much* easier. I've almost completely stopped using TeX since then. Yes, I know that you can get good results from it, but it's one of those programs that made people avoid me for hours after I used it. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 01:20:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00546 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00511 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA01113; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:19:57 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:19:53 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > complete instability occured. > > What a horrible waste of time. > > Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > litte winky eye. > > Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > > The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > > A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > life easier. > > Emacs, Tex, here I come! Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale of woe. About three years ago I was asked to edit and prepare a large highly structured document in Word, which was to be saved in various formats (word processors on different platforms, HTML, PDF) for distribution on CD mainly to mac users. The microsoft addicts with the money naturally wanted to be able to maintain it on their own if I disappear, and the only thing they do with computers is Word. The last additions were about to arrive, and the preparation for the CD was due to be complete in 2 weeks, so they paid me in advance. NEVER take money in advance!! After years of a few new words here and there every couple of months, during which time I swore off mickeysoft except for a small partition for this job, the final changes came through last week. The final final changes, they insist. I insist too. To boot NT, apart from losing the use of my best machine, I have to get into the CMOS and hide some disks. Boring. So a while ago I saved the damn thing as RTF, extracted the common ground from a bunch of different RTF specs and word processor interpretations of them, cleaned the RTF code of redundancies (greatly reducing the file size and increasing platform independence) and dragged it onto my 386. There I'm maintaining it with ed, sed, joe, and rcs. Ispell conveniently ignores the RTF bits if you tell it it's TeX. Now when they reckon a prior change has been lost or unapproved I can trace it back. I still have to go into NT one more time to produce the word-processor-native versions and build a fancy PDF with links and notes, but then it'll be over. Meanwhile the RTF file is always available to them by ftp even as I work on it, they can use it without any conversion on their win and mac machines, and I get to use tools that are so efficient that they don't even interfere with the web/ftp/mail/dns/etc that the 386 is serving at the same time. (By contrast, the office had to upgrade their 486s ages ago when they couldn't cope with Win3.1/Word6) I've been able to use a text editor to write letters in RTF on their behalf, email them to the mac office for printing and posting and to the win head office for approval and archiving. It's not about programming at all. It's about cutting through the bullshit to find the most sensible approach while respecting the more restricted choices of others. And if you treat it as religion you'll always risk being half blind to the possibilities. Religions restrict the mind and destroy those who want to consider other options. If programming is your tool, great, but there's plenty of scope for the non-programmers here too. Similarly, there's a lot of people out there who don't want to know about computers and shouldn't have to just to type a document or look at a web page. Unlike the commercial monopolies, I believe there's room for all of us if only we can rise above the gut reactions of preaching and running scared. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 03:39:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DegNet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12611 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:39:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (GateWay [192.168.168.1]) by DegNet.de (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA25613; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:36:20 +0100 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02962; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:06:14 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199812140906.KAA02962@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:06:11 +0100 (CET) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article To: jcwells@u.washington.edu cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Dec, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > complete instability occured. > [...] > Emacs, Tex, here I come! Better have a look at LyX > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 05:11:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21172 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:11:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21163 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:11:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA87162; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:10:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: malte.lance@gmx.net Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <199812140906.KAA02962@neuron.webmore.prv> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Dec 1998 14:10:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: Malte Lance's message of "Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:06:11 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Malte Lance writes: > On 13 Dec, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > Emacs, Tex, here I come! > Better have a look at LyX No. In my experience, LyX is a total disaster. I've used it a couple of times, an always ended up exporting the document as LaTeX code and finishing up by hand. If you want WYSIWYG, go for a real WYSIWYG tool (StarOffice, Applix, Framemaker), not a bastard like LyX. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 06:22:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26554 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:22:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26548; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:22:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812141422.GAA26548@hub.freebsd.org> From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: grog@lemis.com CC: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com In-reply-to: <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> (message from Greg Lehey on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:39:05 +1030) Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > > me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > > life easier. > > > > Emacs, Tex, > > Don't go overboard. Emacs, OK, but TeX might help you find positive > things about Microsoft Wart. > > Greg use LaTeX rather than TeX. you might consider LyX if you want a more formatted display style editor. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 09:32:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:32:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-204.airnet.net [207.242.81.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15480 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00867 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:32:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36754BBA.DD2C9017@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:32:42 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NT not robust enough for news? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After a conversation with the head of a local ISP, it was conveyed to me that in their experience, Windows NT was not robust enough for their (net) news operations. In attempting to allow it to, they built a machine of gargantuan proportions (It's storage was below that of the WCArchive.) and still couldn't keep up with the news feed. They now have a Solaris machine handling it. He also told me that three of the admins were members of the Linux users group here in town. And yet they couldn't get their beloved OS on the news server? If only I knew how to run INN and were two years older, I'd probably have a job. -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 11:26:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29583 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.cobb.k12.ga.us (gatekeeper.cobb.k12.ga.us [207.203.172.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA29276 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from harrison@cobb.k12.ga.us) Received: by gatekeeper.cobb.k12.ga.us; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA21052; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:24:10 -0500 Received: from database.cobb.k12.ga.us by mailgate.cobb.k12.ga.us; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/15Apr97-1139AM) id AA26834; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:24:26 -0500 Received: from [10.98.9.246] (HELO MC16.cobb.k12.ga.us) by database.cobb.k12.ga.us (AltaVista Mail V1.0/1.0 BL18 listener) id 0000_0193_3675_65b4_d971; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:23:32 -0500 Message-Id: <36756490.2ABF@cobb.k12.ga.us> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:18:40 -0500 From: Harrison High School Reply-To: harrison@cobb.k12.ga.us Organization: Cobb County Public Schools X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: forget you Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------288F570348C2" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------288F570348C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jack is a fool --------------288F570348C2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="Bookmark.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Bookmark.htm" Content-Base: "file:///C|/Program%20Files/Netscape/Na vigator/Program/Bookmark.htm" Harrison High School's Bookmarks

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--------------288F570348C2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 13:33:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:33:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15417 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:33:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-110-45.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.110.45]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02637; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:33:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <367583D9.1428837B@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:32:09 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > > produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > > hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > > pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > > crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > > complete instability occured. > > > > What a horrible waste of time. > > > > Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > > Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > > litte winky eye. > > > > Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > > > > The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > > learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > > > > A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > > me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > > life easier. > > > > Emacs, Tex, here I come! > > Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is > beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale of > woe. > > About three years ago I was asked to edit and prepare a large highly > structured document in Word, which was to be saved in various formats > (word processors on different platforms, HTML, PDF) for distribution on > CD mainly to mac users. > > The microsoft addicts with the money naturally wanted to be able to > maintain it on their own if I disappear, and the only thing they do > with computers is Word. The last additions were about to arrive, and > the preparation for the CD was due to be complete in 2 weeks, so they > paid me in advance. > > NEVER take money in advance!! After years of a few new words here and > there every couple of months, during which time I swore off mickeysoft > except for a small partition for this job, the final changes came > through last week. The final final changes, they insist. I insist too. > > To boot NT, apart from losing the use of my best machine, I have to get > into the CMOS and hide some disks. Boring. So a while ago I saved the > damn thing as RTF, extracted the common ground from a bunch of > different RTF specs and word processor interpretations of them, cleaned > the RTF code of redundancies (greatly reducing the file size and > increasing platform independence) and dragged it onto my 386. There I'm > maintaining it with ed, sed, joe, and rcs. Ispell conveniently ignores > the RTF bits if you tell it it's TeX. Now when they reckon a prior > change has been lost or unapproved I can trace it back. I still have to > go into NT one more time to produce the word-processor-native versions > and build a fancy PDF with links and notes, but then it'll be over. > > Meanwhile the RTF file is always available to them by ftp even as I > work on it, they can use it without any conversion on their win and mac > machines, and I get to use tools that are so efficient that they don't > even interfere with the web/ftp/mail/dns/etc that the 386 is serving at > the same time. (By contrast, the office had to upgrade their 486s ages > ago when they couldn't cope with Win3.1/Word6) I've been able to use a > text editor to write letters in RTF on their behalf, email them to the > mac office for printing and posting and to the win head office for > approval and archiving. > > It's not about programming at all. It's about cutting through the > bullshit to find the most sensible approach while respecting the more > restricted choices of others. And if you treat it as religion you'll > always risk being half blind to the possibilities. Religions restrict > the mind and destroy those who want to consider other options. > > If programming is your tool, great, but there's plenty of scope for the > non-programmers here too. Similarly, there's a lot of people out there > who don't want to know about computers and shouldn't have to just to > type a document or look at a web page. Unlike the commercial > monopolies, I believe there's room for all of us if only we can rise > above the gut reactions of preaching and running scared. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- Huh, I'm probably wrong, but someone said to me that RTF was a standard once develloped by Microsoft. Anyway.. -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.lowrent.org/freebsd/malartre/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 14:07:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19363 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19357 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA02750; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:07:02 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981215090659.15637@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:06:59 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <367583D9.1428837B@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <367583D9.1428837B@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:32:09PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:32:09PM -0500, Malartre wrote: > > Huh, I'm probably wrong, but someone said to me that RTF was a standard > once develloped by Microsoft. Half right :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 16:30:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09193 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09187; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27389; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:00:00 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA15430; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:37 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981215105936.N17075@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> <199812141422.GAA26548@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812141422.GAA26548@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 06:22:33AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 6:22:33 -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >>> >>> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced >>> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my >>> life easier. >>> >>> Emacs, Tex, >> >> Don't go overboard. Emacs, OK, but TeX might help you find positive >> things about Microsoft Wart. > > use LaTeX rather than TeX. Thats where I came from before going to TeX. Possibly I didn't stay long enough, but one problem I have with just about all *TeX-formatted documents is that they shout ``look, I was formatted with TeX''. I know that this can be fixed, but I haven't seen many documents which have been fixed. > you might consider LyX if you want a more formatted display style > editor. I did consider LyX. It combines the obfuscation of WYSIWYG with the complexity of TeX. I agree entirely with DES: it's a waste of time. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 16:42:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10892 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10886 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27457; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:12:42 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA15477; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:12:26 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:12:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 08:19:53PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 20:19:53 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We >> produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man >> hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where >> pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during >> crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before >> complete instability occured. >> >> What a horrible waste of time. >> >> Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. >> Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his >> litte winky eye. >> >> Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. >> >> The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't >> learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. >> >> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced >> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my >> life easier. >> >> Emacs, Tex, here I come! > > Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is > beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale > of woe. [Illustrative story omitted] No, you don't understand. Well, I suspect you do understand, but you're pretending not to. The article in question was not about programming, it was about control. You have wrested control in the manner I was advocating. If you had needed a little program (never played with PERL?), you could have written one to play around with your RTF stuff, and you probably would have. The thing is that the *ability* to program is part of your control. I think I'll add this story to the followup in the next Dæmon's advocate article. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 16:46:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11126; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA05347; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:45:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> <199812141422.GAA26548@hub.freebsd.org> <19981215105936.N17075@freebie.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Dec 1998 01:45:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:36 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > Thats where I came from before going to TeX. Possibly I didn't stay > long enough, but one problem I have with just about all *TeX-formatted > documents is that they shout ``look, I was formatted with TeX''. I > know that this can be fixed, but I haven't seen many documents which > have been fixed. ...because the default font is Computer Modern, which was designed by Donald Knuth and is (to the best of my knowledge) only used by *TeX. There are plenty of other fonts available; I usually prefer Lucida Bright (as an added bonus, Lucida Bright is much easier to read in e.g. xdvi and ghostview than Computer Modern) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 17:14:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13862; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27618; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:44:24 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA15607; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:44:00 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981215114400.V17075@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:44:00 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kkeysler@nwlink.com Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214183905.F17075@freebie.lemis.com> <199812141422.GAA26548@hub.freebsd.org> <19981215105936.N17075@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:45:43AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 1:45:43 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> Thats where I came from before going to TeX. Possibly I didn't stay >> long enough, but one problem I have with just about all *TeX-formatted >> documents is that they shout ``look, I was formatted with TeX''. I >> know that this can be fixed, but I haven't seen many documents which >> have been fixed. > > ...because the default font is Computer Modern, which was designed by > Donald Knuth and is (to the best of my knowledge) only used by *TeX. > There are plenty of other fonts available; I usually prefer Lucida > Bright (as an added bonus, Lucida Bright is much easier to read in > e.g. xdvi and ghostview than Computer Modern) That's one of the reasons. Another is the layout. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 17:49:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18455 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18421 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA03416; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:49:00 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:48:55 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:12:25AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:12:25AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 20:19:53 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > >> produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > >> hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > >> pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > >> crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > >> complete instability occured. > >> > >> What a horrible waste of time. > >> > >> Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > >> Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > >> litte winky eye. > >> > >> Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > >> > >> The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > >> learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > >> > >> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > >> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > >> life easier. > >> > >> Emacs, Tex, here I come! > > > > > Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is > > beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale > > of woe. > > [Illustrative story omitted] > > No, you don't understand. Well, I suspect you do understand, but > you're pretending not to. The article in question was not about > programming, it was about control. You have wrested control in the > manner I was advocating. My point exactly. We do similar things for similar reasons but we attribute success differently. You advocate programming as the way to wrest control. Not the main point, but enough to make me very nervous. I start by typing 'cat notes.txt' and notes.txt contains all the commands I'm afraid of forgetting. I could just as well type 'sh notes.txt' and then you'd attribute what I was doing to programming, which would scare the bejeebers out of me. Next you'd be expecting me to get all tangled up on those loopy things with punctuation and dollar signs spitting out everywhere and I'd be losing control, not gaining it. Then I'd run away and look for comfort in less efficient methods that I _can_ control. Anything but programming! And I'd still end up doing the same as what you're advocating. > If you had needed a little program (never played with PERL?), You know I have. It's not comfortable because I don't understand every part of it. Hardly any, actually. It robs me of control. You're spot on about the motivator, but one person's tool is another's strait-jacket. > you could have written one to play around with > your RTF stuff, and you probably would have. The thing is that the > *ability* to program is part of your control. Not as much as you might think. My inability to program, in most cases, is what fires me to look for and invent better solutions that I can cope with on my own. Then nobody can scare me away by expecting me to have skills I haven't got. Sure, the only differences between what you and I are saying are in semantics and gut reactions. Don't underestimate their potency. As a non-programmer who is easily frightened, in order to claim your approach as my own I have to deny that programming is an essential element. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 18:00:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19998 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:00:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19957 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:00:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA27859; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:29:45 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA15678; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:29:45 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:29:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:48:55PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 12:48:55 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:12:25AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 20:19:53 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >>>> I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We >>>> produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man >>>> hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where >>>> pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during >>>> crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before >>>> complete instability occured. >>>> >>>> What a horrible waste of time. >>>> >>>> Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. >>>> Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his >>>> litte winky eye. >>>> >>>> Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. >>>> >>>> The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't >>>> learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. >>>> >>>> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced >>>> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my >>>> life easier. >>>> >>>> Emacs, Tex, here I come! >>> >> >>> Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is >>> beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale >>> of woe. >> >> [Illustrative story omitted] >> >> No, you don't understand. Well, I suspect you do understand, but >> you're pretending not to. The article in question was not about >> programming, it was about control. You have wrested control in the >> manner I was advocating. > > My point exactly. We do similar things for similar reasons but we > attribute success differently. You advocate programming as the way to > wrest control. Not the main point, but enough to make me very nervous. No, you still don't want to understand. > I start by typing 'cat notes.txt' and notes.txt contains all the > commands I'm afraid of forgetting. I could just as well type 'sh > notes.txt' and then you'd attribute what I was doing to programming, > which would scare the bejeebers out of me. Next you'd be expecting me > to get all tangled up on those loopy things with punctuation and dollar > signs spitting out everywhere and I'd be losing control, not gaining > it. Then I'd run away and look for comfort in less efficient methods > that I _can_ control. Anything but programming! And I'd still end up > doing the same as what you're advocating. OK, what you're discussing are your personal fears. That has nothing to do with programming, only with your perception of programming. >> If you had needed a little program (never played with PERL?), > > You know I have. It's not comfortable because I don't understand every > part of it. Hardly any, actually. It robs me of control. You're spot on > about the motivator, but one person's tool is another's strait-jacket. Well, in fact *I* can't write PERL, and that's one of the reasons. It's a nasty little language, as near as I can tell, but now it's anchored in the Web, I suppose I'm going to have to learn it. Still, you can't gain control without first going to some effort. That's exactly the reason that Microslop is so successful with its ``don't worry about the details, we'll take care of them for you'' approach. But you can't say that you don't like that with Wart (as you did above) and then turn around and say that you don't want the alternative either. >> you could have written one to play around with >> your RTF stuff, and you probably would have. The thing is that the >> *ability* to program is part of your control. > > Not as much as you might think. My inability to program, in most cases, > is what fires me to look for and invent better solutions that I can > cope with on my own. Then nobody can scare me away by expecting > me to have skills I haven't got. > > Sure, the only differences between what you and I are saying are in > semantics and gut reactions. Don't underestimate their potency. As a > non-programmer who is easily frightened, in order to claim your > approach as my own I have to deny that programming is an essential > element. I never said it was an essential element. But if you don't have it, you have less control. The ability to run diff against your RTF is part of the same continuum. Your gut just chooses to react differently to loops and variable dereferences, although at the level we're talking about a variable dereference is conceptually the same thing as running a program. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 18:26:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24693 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:26:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA03505; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:25:38 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981215132535.57242@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:25:35 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:29:45PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:29:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 12:48:55 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:12:25AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 20:19:53 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>>> I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > >>>> produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > >>>> hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > >>>> pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > >>>> crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > >>>> complete instability occured. > >>>> > >>>> What a horrible waste of time. > >>>> > >>>> Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > >>>> Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > >>>> litte winky eye. > >>>> > >>>> Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > >>>> > >>>> The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > >>>> learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > >>>> > >>>> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > >>>> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > >>>> life easier. > >>>> > >>>> Emacs, Tex, here I come! > >>> > >> > >>> Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is > >>> beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale > >>> of woe. > >> > >> [Illustrative story omitted] > >> > >> No, you don't understand. Well, I suspect you do understand, but > >> you're pretending not to. The article in question was not about > >> programming, it was about control. You have wrested control in the > >> manner I was advocating. > > > > My point exactly. We do similar things for similar reasons but we > > attribute success differently. You advocate programming as the way to > > wrest control. Not the main point, but enough to make me very nervous. > > No, you still don't want to understand. What? > > I start by typing 'cat notes.txt' and notes.txt contains all the > > commands I'm afraid of forgetting. I could just as well type 'sh > > notes.txt' and then you'd attribute what I was doing to programming, > > which would scare the bejeebers out of me. Next you'd be expecting me > > to get all tangled up on those loopy things with punctuation and dollar > > signs spitting out everywhere and I'd be losing control, not gaining > > it. Then I'd run away and look for comfort in less efficient methods > > that I _can_ control. Anything but programming! And I'd still end up > > doing the same as what you're advocating. > > OK, what you're discussing are your personal fears. That has nothing > to do with programming, only with your perception of programming. I didn't make any such claim. My reaction does have something to do with what is requred to convince people to do things your way. > >> If you had needed a little program (never played with PERL?), > > > > You know I have. It's not comfortable because I don't understand every > > part of it. Hardly any, actually. It robs me of control. You're spot on > > about the motivator, but one person's tool is another's strait-jacket. > > Well, in fact *I* can't write PERL, and that's one of the reasons. > It's a nasty little language, as near as I can tell, but now it's > anchored in the Web, I suppose I'm going to have to learn it. Still, > you can't gain control without first going to some effort. That's > exactly the reason that Microslop is so successful with its ``don't > worry about the details, we'll take care of them for you'' approach. > But you can't say that you don't like that with Wart (as you did > above) and then turn around and say that you don't want the > alternative either. Whoah boy! Where's this coming from?? I don't think anyone would seriously accuse me of not wanting to make an effort. I'm pretty good at miracles too, but sometimes the job can't wait that long and I do like to deliver. Study is seldom an adequate excuse. Maybe it's worth investing 20 hours of study to be able to do a 1 hour job in 20 minutes. Maybe I haven't got that 20 hours all at once, or more likely, don't have the resources or experience required to spend it studying the right things. I've got a job to do, a list as long as my arm of things to learn, and in 6 hours the microsofters will have the job done their own way and be gloating. Maybe spending time learning other things instead of programming means not making an effort in your book. If so, call me lazy, I'm too busy doing important things like learning and producing the goods, to be bothered making an effort on that scale. > >> you could have written one to play around with > >> your RTF stuff, and you probably would have. The thing is that the > >> *ability* to program is part of your control. > > > > Not as much as you might think. My inability to program, in most cases, > > is what fires me to look for and invent better solutions that I can > > cope with on my own. Then nobody can scare me away by expecting > > me to have skills I haven't got. > > > > Sure, the only differences between what you and I are saying are in > > semantics and gut reactions. Don't underestimate their potency. As a > > non-programmer who is easily frightened, in order to claim your > > approach as my own I have to deny that programming is an essential > > element. > > I never said it was an essential element. But if you don't have it, > you have less control. So, I have less control. It doesn't mean I have none. Far from it. > The ability to run diff against your RTF is part of the same > continuum. Your gut just chooses to react differently to loops and > variable dereferences, although at the level we're talking about a > variable dereference is conceptually the same thing as running a > program. I don't know what you're saying there. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 14 20:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07839 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23690; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:47:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19981215154721.A23602@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:47:21 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:29:45PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i was going to stay out of this one, becaue most people think i'm an irrational bigot, wll i'm about to give more proof. On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:29:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 12:48:55 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:12:25AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Monday, 14 December 1998 at 20:19:53 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 11:29:40PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>>> I spent the entire weekend doing battle with Microsoft products. We > >>>> produced a 400 page report using the bastard Word 97. Easily 20 full man > >>>> hours were spent trying to figure why there were big red X's where > >>>> pictures used to be and recovering files that were corrupted during > >>>> crashes. We could not put together more than 20MB/200 pages of text before > >>>> complete instability occured. > >>>> > >>>> What a horrible waste of time. > >>>> > >>>> Oh yeah, don't forget that little paper clip sucker in the right corner. > >>>> Good thing I didn't have my gun. I'da shot the futhermocker right in his > >>>> litte winky eye. > >>>> > >>>> Imagine trying to put together "The Complete FreeBSD" in this environment. > >>>> > >>>> The point is, I know how well small dedicated tools work. I haven't > >>>> learned the text editing tools because I was never motivated to do so. > >>>> > >>>> A recent email chat combined with Greg's article have completely convinced > >>>> me that I should learn a little bit more programming in order to make my > >>>> life easier. > >>>> > >>>> Emacs, Tex, here I come! > >>> > >> > >>> Greg will scowl from his perch, but even the simplest programming is > >>> beyond me at the moment. There are other ways, though. First a tale > >>> of woe. > >> > >> [Illustrative story omitted] > >> > >> No, you don't understand. Well, I suspect you do understand, but > >> you're pretending not to. The article in question was not about > >> programming, it was about control. You have wrested control in the > >> manner I was advocating. > > > > My point exactly. We do similar things for similar reasons but we > > attribute success differently. You advocate programming as the way to > > wrest control. Not the main point, but enough to make me very nervous. > > No, you still don't want to understand. > > > I start by typing 'cat notes.txt' and notes.txt contains all the > > commands I'm afraid of forgetting. I could just as well type 'sh > > notes.txt' and then you'd attribute what I was doing to programming, > > which would scare the bejeebers out of me. Next you'd be expecting me > > to get all tangled up on those loopy things with punctuation and dollar > > signs spitting out everywhere and I'd be losing control, not gaining > > it. Then I'd run away and look for comfort in less efficient methods > > that I _can_ control. Anything but programming! And I'd still end up > > doing the same as what you're advocating. > i will start by stating this for teh record, i have an intellect that can swamp both of yours combined, by several orders of magnitude, yet i an kept 'normal' by teh fact i have a body that refuses to function correctly, it is in part why i am now a card carrying psuedo vegetable on welfare. > OK, what you're discussing are your personal fears. That has nothing > to do with programming, only with your perception of programming. this is not what sue is saying, even by the reometest strech of any fevered imagination. she is stating teh beleeding obvious. people are worried about doing things that they cannot understand, a fact many of teh motormouthed, er typewriter jockies in freebsd-questions forget. people ask questions to get anwers, usually to very specific and narrow interest field questions .. yet the answers that are derived would form the basis of a best seller in several areas of derivitive psychology and information mis-interpretation. people answer questions from thier own experiential universes, people interpret the queston being asked, primarly, based on how tey understand teh languge of teh question .. i'm not talking about levels of english competance or some such excuse some of our educated amreican participants use ofr 'getting it wrong'. comuters have a specific language that means more or less the same things in russian as it does in amreican english, as it does in australian english as it does in english propper. where the real diffuculties lay are the disparities in teh levels of comfortablenss, or level of capability to understand teh suble nuances in the differeniat shifts in meaning, based in part upon teh munber of letter and or thier ordering that acompanies teh person name. i've noticed that the more 'educated' a name gets, the les able are the answers to be understood by one less well endowed. freebsd is a microcosm of one such envoronment .. as sue is pointing out in her simple but succint responce. simple ain't stupid, thier is a maxim in engineering 'good engineering is both simple, efficient and elegant' a maxim some responders to article, myself include would do well to heed. to reiterate ... programming is just word manipulaton, youspeak english, you program, some people do it better than others, easy of usage is not an issue, understability of outcome and functionality are the primary currancies that inhabit most people pockets. sue like most people is nt afraid of programing persay, she is 'afraid' of making the investment of time into a project that will return little ot no dividend in teh long run. lets face it thier is no right or wrong way to do things in unix. thier is only a solution that delivers the desired results, or one that delivers them at great cost, hence inefficintly, or on ethat dose not deliver the desired results. each person has thier own 'way of doing things'. i was arguing a question of semanitcs with sue on day, may years ago, and when i say that both of us were 'wrong, n the plural sence, and that both of us were right, i asked how could this be ? my answer is shckingly simple, unix give one the fredom to explore thier own avenues and to arive independanly at a solution that on teh surface might be very similar or have no outward aprance of conformance whatsoever. this is what sues, and most others arguement is really allabout .. i'm not god, as such i cannot dictate others thoughs .. but if you see from an unbiased perspective (it took me may years of crippling physical torment to get thier, i was a heard nut to crack) you can see that this could be the most likely position. > > >> If you had needed a little program (never played with PERL?), > > > > You know I have. It's not comfortable because I don't understand every > > part of it. Hardly any, actually. It robs me of control. You're spot on > > about the motivator, but one person's tool is another's strait-jacket. > > Well, in fact *I* can't write PERL, and that's one of the reasons. > It's a nasty little language, as near as I can tell, but now it's > anchored in the Web, I suppose I'm going to have to learn it. Still, > you can't gain control without first going to some effort. That's > exactly the reason that Microslop is so successful with its ``don't who gave you the right to do this ???? what authority do you weild to make this sort of obsenity ??? we live in a world where space and respect are becoming very tangible assets, thie is no place for this sort of childish purality, none whatsoever. as we rise in teh ranks of our peers we all have a moral, if not ethical obligation to display a respect for our peers (this is very easy, its thgier adulaton we all crave) and our opsoaition, much harder becaue it they that stand in teh way of geeting what we wonat from thise who fawn at our feet. microsoft may be alot of thigs, but i have yet to hear a microsoft employee even come close to teh drivel and level of childishness that pervais teh linux newsgrougs, mailinglists and sadly is coming here .. thie is no place for this sort of name calling. i'm not defeding microsoft, i'm doing my level best to keep the playing filed level so that when it comes my turn to fend of critisism, i can honestly say, i didn't thow those stones ... or put another way, i stayed behind to help cleanup teh broken glass. microsoft ha many good people working for it, some even use freebsd, not just at home but at tehier internal ms netork workstations connected to the corporate wan. what we should be dong is capitalisiong on thier good will, not this kind of personal attack on hoe they make a living. i don';t like freebsd being rubished becaue i've invested a lot over the years .. microsoft users feel the same way. users of microsoft product don't get a full frontal lobotomy as a byproduct of thier usage of microsoft product. unfortunately the same cannot be said of out linux peers and now that sam disease is creeping incidiously into our own midst. sttartng at teh top .. as most of these kinds of infects usualy do. name calling is for children, who don;t know any better, we as freebsd users pride ourselfs of our maturity, or so goes the rhetoric .. in the corporate minds and hearts game thier is no winers or loosers, just casualties, let us not become one of teh casualties of this most incidious of wars, not against microsft, or linux, or whatever comes next, but against the dehumanising process that sees it as ok to rubbish someone else, sometingelse, simply becaue it is not like us, or out toy of teh month. i've spokento may that have come across from ms lan manager networks, forst to linux than fnally to freebsd. of teh many things they say about freebsd, well teh expected is, network performance, reliability, stability. productivity and ever other bloody -ivity under the sun .. one thng stands out. what may you all ask is that one thing, its quiote simple, it is the level of maturity displayed bu the average freebsd user, teh lack of schoolboy names in teh from: lines, teh level of conversational skills displaved in teh amnswers to questions but even above all this is the one fact that stands out the most, that eing tha fact that we as a group don't malign our 'competition' to coin a phrase, 'even if we came over form microsoft' we don't hear the usuall industy tripe about microsoft, its so refreshing. this last bit was a small parapharase, it had ot be i cannot remember all the was said inthe order it was said, but it is the gist of teh conversation. well, i've said enough to get my throat cut .. but i will, i need ot say one more thing. what ive said above needs to be incprporated into the deamonnews as well. or more to the point it needs to beocme one of teh foundational bylines. treat our peers with respect, treat our competition with respect. when we start, or in freebsds case do so again, to do this as a class action we will have the microsofts beaing a path to our door and we will be assured a place in heaven, so to speak. its not about winning or loosing, or even about how ne playes the game, it si about helping people. one way we all can do this is to cut teh mindlessly childish namecalling, in[articular of microsoft. regards jonathan ps, to those who will comment onmy spelling, i have dsylexia, i suffer with sever chronic pain and my cns is braking down, complain if you will, its not going to change the fact that i caanot type becaue my body is resisting my attempts at active correction. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 15 03:54:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17346 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:54:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17339 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA01174; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:53:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Sue Blake , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:53:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:29:45 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > No, you still don't want to understand. > [...] > OK, what you're discussing are your personal fears. > [...] Still, > you can't gain control without first going to some effort. > [...] > But you can't say that you don't like that with Wart (as you did > above) and then turn around and say that you don't want the > alternative either. I think some of those were below the belt. As for my own opinion, I've exchanged enough email with Sue to know that she is not a technophobe and most certainly neither stupid nor lazy. Just because her priorities are different from yours doesn't mean they're wrong. She focuses on getting the job done and getting it done well, rather than on having as much fun as possible on the way. You - and I - like to tinker and play and try to find the "Right Way" of doing things, even if we spend more time experimenting than we save by doing the job more quickly in the end. I won't venture an opinion on which approach, if any, is superior to the other. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 15 05:15:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA26645 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id IAA24233; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:14:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:14:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Sue Blake cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article In-Reply-To: <19981215132535.57242@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:29:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The ability to run diff against your RTF is part of the same > > continuum. Your gut just chooses to react differently to loops and > > variable dereferences, although at the level we're talking about a > > variable dereference is conceptually the same thing as running a > > program. > I don't know what you're saying there. He's saying your looking at it wrong. You're already doing the same thing programmers do, without really realizing it. You're writing formatting macros, which is functionally equivalent to writing code to format output on a slightly lesser scale. You are conceptually there, and haven't quite looked at the street signs enough to realize it yet. I don't program. I was scarred by fortran in a former life, and have been turned off ever since, but basic shell scripting to c is still conceptually the same. You have some data you wish to manipulate, or same task to automate, and you put something together to do it for you. In your case, it's making rtf documents for a customer. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 15 14:29:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06785 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06755 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:28:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24890; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:02:41 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981215200240.31460@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:02:40 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey Cc: Sue Blake , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Smaller, Dedicated tools and Greg's Daemon News Article References: <19981214083023.C2587@freebie.lemis.com> <19981214201953.52678@welearn.com.au> <19981215111225.O17075@freebie.lemis.com> <19981215124855.28247@welearn.com.au> <19981215122945.B15633@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:53:57PM +0100 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:53:57PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I won't venture an opinion on which approach, if any, is superior to > the other. Damn it man, you're being far too reasonable. Stop that this instant. :-) Speaking for myself, one of the most frustrating things about using FreeBSD is the sheer number of fun projects I could get involved in. There's always too many to do, and not enough hours in the day. I wanted to learn the VM system inside out, and look where I ended up :-) N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 15 21:45:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:45:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26062 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA05843 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:50:25 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199812160550.AAA05843@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Some good press for FreeBSD (I guess...) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:50:23 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This week's issue of Info World (December 14th, Volume 20, Issue 50) has a review of several 'firewall appliances' (Test Center Comparison, page 68). Reviewed products include The Fort Knox Policy Router F-3000 from Internet Devices Inc, the Interceptor 3.6 from Technologic Inc, the Watchguard Securiry Management System 3.1 (Firebox II) from Watchguard Technologies and the SonicWall Plus DMZ from Sonic Systems. The reviewers gave the best overall rating to the Fort Knox system, which, according to the 'features' listing on page 71, runs a modified version of FreeBSD. The Interceptor is listed as running modified BSD/OS and the Firebox II uses a modified Linux system loaded from a flash RAM module. The SonicWall is based on a proprietary embedded OS; it was the cheapest of all the devices ($2490US) but also scored the lowest. The other three devices were all priced in the neighborhood of $10,000US. The Linux-based system ranked second. Unfortunately, the article itself doesn't seem to say anything about FreeBSD, which I suppose is not totally unexpected given that these devices are supposed to provide glitzy web-based configuration systems that hide the mean, nasty OS underneath. I've actually had the displeasure of using the SonicWall device. Some of the things that struck me were: - While the device is meant to be configured by a web browser, it has to be one that supports just the right version of java. The manual recommends netscape, and sure enough, when we tried to use Internet Exploder with it, results were less than perfect (things didn't always display properly; no, I didn't try tweaking it: it's a stinking web browser and I have better things to do). - The device can _only_ be configured through a web browser. There is no serial port to which you can attach a dumb terminal in an emergency. This really bothered me: it's incredibly easy to shoot yourself in the foot with the browser interface and get the thing into a state where you can't connect to it via the network. I can't see how you're supposed to fix such a problem without a directly wired console. - There's no way to reset the device back to the factory default configuration. If you forget the management password(s) for the thing, you're screwed. There is a 'reset' button on the back, but all it does is reboot the embedded OS. Yes, I took the cover off and looked inside: no reset switch there either. The manual says nothing on the subject. (Well, it does show you how to restore some of the factory settings through the web interface, but that's not much help if you don't know the managment password in the first place.) Luckily, I didn't have to deal with this contraption for very long, and I hope I never encounter one again. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness" ============================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 03:46:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28592 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28579 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA02494; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:46:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can we just come to a decision on IPv6 and IPSec? References: <1958.912571118@zippy.cdrom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:46:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:58:38 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > This fence rail is pointy and cold and I think we're all going to come > down with an embarrassing medical condition if we keep sitting on it. One more for the fortune database... :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 05:27:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12756 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA12748 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:27:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id IAA25401; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:26:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:26:30 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Bill Paul cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some good press for FreeBSD (I guess...) In-Reply-To: <199812160550.AAA05843@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Bill Paul wrote: > This week's issue of Info World (December 14th, Volume 20, Issue 50) > has a review of several 'firewall appliances' (Test Center Comparison, > page 68). Reviewed products include The Fort Knox Policy Router F-3000 > from Internet Devices Inc, the Interceptor 3.6 from Technologic Inc, > the Watchguard Securiry Management System 3.1 (Firebox II) from > Watchguard Technologies and the SonicWall Plus DMZ from Sonic Systems. Lots of interesting stuff from Bill deleted. I have the pleasure of having GTA's GFX Firewall. The OS version I am running is BSD/OS based, but I heard that newer versions are FreeBSD based due to licensing issues. GTA's GnatBox is also a nice product, which is very definately FreeBSD based. The GFX can only be toyed with via the console (which they are nice enough to supply), and gives transparent access from inside. It's a double wall system, for added warm fuzzies. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 10:48:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24155 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24131 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA31017; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:55:40 -0600 (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Bill Paul cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some good press for FreeBSD (I guess...) In-Reply-To: <199812160550.AAA05843@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Bill Paul wrote: > The reviewers gave the best overall rating to the Fort Knox system, > which, according to the 'features' listing on page 71, runs a modified > version of FreeBSD. I figured this out when I noticed that the network interfaces were named "vx0", "vx1", and "vx2" in the first model I was unfortunate enough to install, and "fxp0", "fxp1", and "fxp2" in the later models. I had to twist Internet Devices' arm to admit it, too, which pissed me off on general principle. > I've actually had the displeasure of using the SonicWall device. Some > of the things that struck me were: > > - While the device is meant to be configured by a web browser, it has > to be one that supports just the right version of java. The manual > recommends netscape, and sure enough, when we tried to use Internet > Exploder with it, results were less than perfect (things didn't always > display properly; no, I didn't try tweaking it: it's a stinking web > browser and I have better things to do). Ditto for the Fort Knox. Takes forever for the classes to load, and once they do it's nothing to write home about. > - The device can _only_ be configured through a web browser. There is > no serial port to which you can attach a dumb terminal in an emergency. > This really bothered me: it's incredibly easy to shoot yourself in the > foot with the browser interface and get the thing into a state where > you can't connect to it via the network. I can't see how you're supposed > to fix such a problem without a directly wired console. Ditto again, for the Fort Knox. You can slap a phone line into it and have Internet Devices' 9-5, M-F tech support department dial in to fix if it you've hosed the thing. You're not allowed to do it yourself, though. > - There's no way to reset the device back to the factory default > configuration. This is technically possible with the Fort Knox box, though I've never actually tried it. They provide a serial port dongle you can slap on the back and power up the machine with, which is supposed to set it back to the defaults. I guess it's not a horrible device for the technically uninclined, but I've seen better. Unless I have to, I won't be working with another. It's not the box itself that sucks, it's the bloody user interface...I might reconsider my opinion of it, though, if they put some serious effort into improving the graphical interface, and provided a command line interface, even if on a limited basis. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 19:22:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25459 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25452 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (tomato31.verinet.com [199.45.181.205]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA24143 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:21:32 -0700 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00442 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:21:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <3678789E.3332705E@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:21:02 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interbase Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org InterBase Software Corporation has a Japanese partner, RIOS Corporation, which has completed a FreeBSD port of Interbase 4. The FreeBSD port of Interbase 4 is availiable for download at: http://iblinux.rios.co.jp/intl/ -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 23:57:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20577 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:57:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail001.mediacity.com (mail001.mediacity.com [205.216.172.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA20564 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grosch@home001.mediacity.com) Received: (qmail 5034 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1998 07:56:51 -0000 Received: from home001.mediacity.com (205.216.172.6) by mail001.mediacity.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1998 07:56:51 -0000 Received: (from grosch@localhost) by home001.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA20781; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:56:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grosch) Message-ID: <19981216235611.A20768@home001.mediacity.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:56:11 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at (http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html). Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 16 23:57:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:57:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail001.mediacity.com (mail001.mediacity.com [205.216.172.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA20635 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:57:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grosch@home001.mediacity.com) Received: (qmail 5094 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1998 07:57:06 -0000 Received: from home001.mediacity.com (205.216.172.6) by mail001.mediacity.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1998 07:57:06 -0000 Received: (from grosch@localhost) by home001.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA20800; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grosch) Message-ID: <19981216235706.B20768@home001.mediacity.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:57:06 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of it's counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * This is a beta release. It is not perfect and will have a few bugs and flaws. If you find any please let us know. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spamers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 17 11:39:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06296 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [12.9.219.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06289 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:39:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from HARLIE.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [12.9.219.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14918 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:39:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just in case anyone wants to be a little more sure before they download 23MB, yes, the just-released Corel WP 8 for Linux works fine under 2.2.8-RELEASE. There is one minor glitch in the install if you download the seperate files, and that is you need to lowercase the filenames after un-gzipping them. O.K., so the font selection isn't great, but Corel claims that it will work with any T1 font that the X server has properly installed, and we've got a port that makes all the Ghostscript T1 fonts available to X, so that should improve once I've played around with it a little more. For those that don't know, see http://linux.corel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 17 19:56:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09414 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09408 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:56:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA09850 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:56:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:56:12 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: www.linuxworld.com - What is FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check it out. Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 17 19:57:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.tku.edu.tw (power.cs.tku.edu.tw [163.13.128.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA08896 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winsdom@gmail.gcn.net.tw) Received: from adagio by cs.tku.edu.tw (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA27274; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:29:05 +0800 Message-Id: <199812180329.LAA27274@cs.tku.edu.tw> From: "Winsdom Chen" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:28:56 +0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth 518edd30 unsubscribe freebsd-chat winsdom@gmail.gcn.net.tw To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 17 20:53:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16600 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16589 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA22611; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:55:24 +0500 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:54:58 +0500 (GMT) From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" To: Paul Griffith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: www.linuxworld.com - What is FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems very well balanced IMHO...I am starting to like Linux users :) Pedro. On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Paul Griffith wrote: > > Check it out. > > Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 12:47:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29426 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29419 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:47:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu) Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by lab.cba.ualr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07703 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:50:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:50:51 -0600 (EST) From: Joe To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Forwarded mail.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>---Subject: Alert >> >> >>>Redmond, WA -- Microsoft announced today that the >>>official release date for the new operating system >>>"Windows 2000" will be delayed until the second quarter >>>of 1901. >>> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 18:00:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06791 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06786 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from tc-pt1-16.ida.net (tc-pt1-16.ida.net [208.141.181.25]) by mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03134; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:00:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:58:55 -0700 (MST) From: Mike Jackson X-Sender: muck@falcon.hinterlands.com To: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > > Just in case anyone wants to be a little more sure before they download > 23MB, yes, the just-released Corel WP 8 for Linux works fine under > 2.2.8-RELEASE. There is one minor glitch in the install if you download > the seperate files, and that is you need to lowercase the filenames after > un-gzipping them. > > O.K., so the font selection isn't great, but Corel claims that it will > work with any T1 font that the X server has properly installed, and we've > got a port that makes all the Ghostscript T1 fonts available to X, so that > should improve once I've played around with it a little more. > > For those that don't know, see http://linux.corel.com > I can confirm that this works on 3.0-CURRENT. I did have some trouble getting the install script to run, but when I ran it from /compat/linux/bin/sh it ran fine. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 18:07:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07825 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07820 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:07:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA27635; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:07:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:07:08 -0700 To: Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about writing (and posting) a script that invokes the installer properly lowercases the filenames if required, and BRANDS THE BINARIES? It'd be great to have this available so that reviewers and newbies don't have trouble. And if it were shown to the Corel folks, perhaps they could detect FreeBSD and install accordingly. --Brett At 06:58 PM 12/18/98 -0700, Mike Jackson wrote: > > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > >> >> Just in case anyone wants to be a little more sure before they download >> 23MB, yes, the just-released Corel WP 8 for Linux works fine under >> 2.2.8-RELEASE. There is one minor glitch in the install if you download >> the seperate files, and that is you need to lowercase the filenames after >> un-gzipping them. >> >> O.K., so the font selection isn't great, but Corel claims that it will >> work with any T1 font that the X server has properly installed, and we've >> got a port that makes all the Ghostscript T1 fonts available to X, so that >> should improve once I've played around with it a little more. >> >> For those that don't know, see http://linux.corel.com >> > >I can confirm that this works on 3.0-CURRENT. I did have some trouble >getting the install script to run, but when I ran it from >/compat/linux/bin/sh it ran fine. > >Mike > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 18:11:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08044 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08037 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:11:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA18916; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:41:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA24114; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:41:35 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981219124134.S486@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:41:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) References: <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:07:08PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 18 December 1998 at 19:07:08 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:58 PM 12/18/98 -0700, Mike Jackson wrote: >> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: >>> Just in case anyone wants to be a little more sure before they download >>> 23MB, yes, the just-released Corel WP 8 for Linux works fine under >>> 2.2.8-RELEASE. There is one minor glitch in the install if you download >>> the seperate files, and that is you need to lowercase the filenames after >>> un-gzipping them. >>> >>> O.K., so the font selection isn't great, but Corel claims that it will >>> work with any T1 font that the X server has properly installed, and we've >>> got a port that makes all the Ghostscript T1 fonts available to X, so that >>> should improve once I've played around with it a little more. >>> >>> For those that don't know, see http://linux.corel.com >>> >> >> I can confirm that this works on 3.0-CURRENT. I did have some trouble >> getting the install script to run, but when I ran it from >> /compat/linux/bin/sh it ran fine. > > How about writing (and posting) a script Well, the correct way to do this is with a port > that invokes the installer There's nothing special there, except that it has this crazy DOS-based idea of letting you decide where the binaries go. > properly lowercases the filenames if required, Not required. I'm not sure under which scenario you'd expect to change file names. > and BRANDS THE BINARIES? Not required. > It'd be great to have this available so that reviewers and newbies > don't have trouble. And if it were shown to the Corel folks, perhaps > they could detect FreeBSD and install accordingly. There's really nothing FreeBSD-specific in the install. As I said, the only decision is where to put the files. And that applies just as much to Linux. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 18:33:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10291 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:33:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10286 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:33:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00375; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812190229.SAA00375@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:07:08 MST." <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:29:22 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How about writing (and posting) a script that invokes the installer > properly lowercases the filenames if required, and BRANDS THE > BINARIES? It'd be great to have this available so that reviewers > and newbies don't have trouble. And if it were shown to the Corel > folks, perhaps they could detect FreeBSD and install accordingly. The lowercasing problem is a feature of the multiple-file download. If you download the single file, everything "just works". The binaries don't need to be branded; they're all dynamically linked. I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting it, maybe early next week. > --Brett > > At 06:58 PM 12/18/98 -0700, Mike Jackson wrote: > > > > > > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > > > >> > >> Just in case anyone wants to be a little more sure before they download > >> 23MB, yes, the just-released Corel WP 8 for Linux works fine under > >> 2.2.8-RELEASE. There is one minor glitch in the install if you download > >> the seperate files, and that is you need to lowercase the filenames after > >> un-gzipping them. > >> > >> O.K., so the font selection isn't great, but Corel claims that it will > >> work with any T1 font that the X server has properly installed, and we've > >> got a port that makes all the Ghostscript T1 fonts available to X, so that > >> should improve once I've played around with it a little more. > >> > >> For those that don't know, see http://linux.corel.com > >> > > > >I can confirm that this works on 3.0-CURRENT. I did have some trouble > >getting the install script to run, but when I ran it from > >/compat/linux/bin/sh it ran fine. > > > >Mike > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 19:14:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14256 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-22.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14250 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 0zrCpv-0003tQ-00; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:13:48 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA00963; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:13:16 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23129; Sat, 19 Dec 98 03:13:15 GMT Message-Id: <367B1907.BA5C0640@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:09:59 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forwarded mail.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe wrote: > > >>---Subject: Alert > >> > >> > >>>Redmond, WA -- Microsoft announced today that the > >>>official release date for the new operating system > >>>"Windows 2000" will be delayed until the second quarter > >>>of 1901. ^^^^ Because it's not Y2K compliant :-) > >>> > >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 19:41:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:41:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16056 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA28254; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:40:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:28:33 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981219124134.S486@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:41 PM 12/19/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> How about writing (and posting) a script > >Well, the correct way to do this is with a port Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow the free version to be a package. Jordan, could you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? On the other hand, what if the user has bought the non-free intermediate or professional versions of the product? (One of the things they include in these versions, as I understand it, is a nice collection of Adobe Type 1 fonts -- the same ones they distribute with Ventura.) We'd want something that tweaks the installation of the CD-ROM versions. >> that invokes the installer > >There's nothing special there, except that it has this crazy DOS-based >idea of letting you decide where the binaries go. Well, as I understand it, when you download the files, the case of the file names comes out wrong. It'd be nice to fix this. >> and BRANDS THE BINARIES? > >Not required. So far, I've never encountered a Linux binary that ran reliably under FreeBSD unless it was branded. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 19:50:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16399 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00785; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:45:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812190345.TAA00785@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:28:33 MST." <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:45:30 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow > the free version to be a package. Jordan, could > you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? You should do some more research on this; Corel are repackaging for bundling deals. At this time, I don't think they'll come at packaging non-bundled deals (they might; we should let the Linux folks fight this one for now). > On the other hand, what if the user has bought > the non-free intermediate or professional versions > of the product? (One of the things they include in > these versions, as I understand it, is a nice > collection of Adobe Type 1 fonts -- the same ones > they distribute with Ventura.) We'd want something > that tweaks the installation of the CD-ROM versions. The user gets an application that doesn't live within the packaging system's scope. That kinda sucks, but WP is pretty polite about where things live, and it's not really that difficult to manage it. > >> and BRANDS THE BINARIES? > > > >Not required. > > So far, I've never encountered a Linux binary that ran reliably under > FreeBSD unless it was branded. You can't be using much then. The only things that need to be branded are static binaries, and the only thing I can think of that comes like that in the way of commercial software these days is Visual SlickEdit (and I've already spoken to them about it, as well as sent them a copy of the brandelf source). VSE is actually pretty nice, if a bitch to install. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 19:54:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16916 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA19303; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:43 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA24469; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:43 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981219142342.G24125@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:42 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) References: <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> <19981219124134.S486@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:28:33PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 18 December 1998 at 19:28:33 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:41 PM 12/19/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> How about writing (and posting) a script >> >> Well, the correct way to do this is with a port > > Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow > the free version to be a package. Jordan, could > you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? It'd be nice. I seriously doubt that Corel would do it, but I don't suppose it would harm to ask. > On the other hand, what if the user has bought > the non-free intermediate or professional versions > of the product? (One of the things they include in > these versions, as I understand it, is a nice > collection of Adobe Type 1 fonts -- the same ones > they distribute with Ventura.) We'd want something > that tweaks the installation of the CD-ROM versions. As I said, it's trivial. I would expect that the same port could do them all. >>> that invokes the installer >> >> There's nothing special there, except that it has this crazy DOS-based >> idea of letting you decide where the binaries go. > > Well, as I understand it, when you download the files, the case of > the file names comes out wrong. It'd be nice to fix this. Yes, Mike said something about the multi-file version. The DOS origin of the software shows in a number of places. >>> and BRANDS THE BINARIES? >> >> Not required. > > So far, I've never encountered a Linux binary that ran reliably under > FreeBSD unless it was branded. Well, then take a look at WordPerfect. There are two possibilities: either it works from the beginning, in which case it doesn't need branding, or it doesn't work, in which case branding might help. This one works from the beginning. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 20:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17539 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17534 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA28451; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:07:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981218205611.06c17f10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:59:05 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199812190345.TAA00785@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:45 PM 12/18/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >> So far, I've never encountered a Linux binary that ran reliably under >> FreeBSD unless it was branded. > >You can't be using much then. The only things that need to be branded >are static binaries, I'm not using many, because so far they've been a royal pain in the derriere. One of the most frustrating was the "Free Pascal" Turbo Pascal clone for Linux. It and every object file it generated had to be branded to work. And linking failed unpredictably, even under 3.0-current which uses a Linux ELF ld(1). I am still uncertain as to why it is so troublesome; it doesn't use kernel threads or anything else that's been known to cause problems with Linux apps. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 20:07:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17553 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA28454; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:07:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981218210026.06b8ebc0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:05:31 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , jkh@time.cdrom.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981219142342.G24125@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981218190442.06d2c190@mail.lariat.org> <19981219124134.S486@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:23 PM 12/19/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow >> the free version to be a package. Jordan, could >> you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? > >It'd be nice. I seriously doubt that Corel would do it, but I don't >suppose it would harm to ask. Well, it's not as if they'd be losing any revenue. They'd be making it more convenient to get the free version, which means that more people would try it and upgrade to paid versions. And this would offload some of the FTP traffic from their overburdened servers. In other words, it's a win all around: they, users, AND FreeBSD.org would all benefit. I sure HOPE they'd go for that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 21:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26363 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26358 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA64931; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:29:22 PST." <199812190229.SAA00375@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:28:35 -0800 Message-ID: <64928.914045315@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation > process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad > HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting > it, maybe early next week. A port which just automates this would be a lot more useful in any case. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 21:30:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26479 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26474 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA64952; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:29:46 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:28:33 MST." <4.1.19981218191723.064c4680@mail.lariat.org> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:29:45 -0800 Message-ID: <64949.914045385@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow > the free version to be a package. Jordan, could > you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? Give me a contact name and a phone number - I don't even know who Corel's CEO is and, in the overall set of things I have to worry about right now, finding out just isn't a big priority. I already have plenty of things on my top priority list. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 21:41:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:41:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27028 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA29207; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:40:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981218223339.065129a0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:40:26 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <64949.914045385@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:29 PM 12/18/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Give me a contact name and a phone number - I don't even know who >Corel's CEO is and, in the overall set of things I have to worry about >right now, finding out just isn't a big priority. I already have >plenty of things on my top priority list. :-) The CEO's name is Cowpland. Michael Cowpland. And their corporate offices are at (613)728-8200. They're in Ontario province, which I believe puts them on Eastern time. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 22:08:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29938 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (tnt1-152.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29933 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:08:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by n4hhe.ampr.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10230 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:44:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199812190544.XAA10230@n4hhe.ampr.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Forwarded mail.... In-reply-to: Message from Mark Ovens of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:09:59 GMT." <367B1907.BA5C0640@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:44:54 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > Joe wrote: > > > > >>---Subject: Alert > > >> > > >> > > >>>Redmond, WA -- Microsoft announced today that the > > >>>official release date for the new operating system > > >>>"Windows 2000" will be delayed until the second quarter > > >>>of 1901. > ^^^^ > Because it's not Y2K compliant :-) I keep seeing all these mentions about "Y2K" and I'm confused. I understand the possible problems with the year 2000 but don't see what the problem is with the year 2048? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 18 22:09:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00209 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:09:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (tnt1-152.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00204 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:09:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by n4hhe.ampr.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10296; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:52:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199812190552.XAA10296@n4hhe.ampr.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:41:34 +1030." <19981219124134.S486@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:52:52 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > >> I can confirm that this works on 3.0-CURRENT. I did have some trouble > >> getting the install script to run, but when I ran it from > >> /compat/linux/bin/sh it ran fine. > > > > How about writing (and posting) a script > > Well, the correct way to do this is with a port ditto. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 02:34:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22419 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:34:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22414 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29660 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:34:14 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:34:14 +1100 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forwarded mail.... In-Reply-To: <367B1907.BA5C0640@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org but surely they'll just use their marketing power to change next year to the year 1901, solve all the year 2000 problems for them in one stroke (I saw an article in an Australian newspaper saying that windows 98 has some small year 2000 problems, in other words it is not year 2000 compliant :-) ) http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert981202.html Andrew Perry > > > > >>---Subject: Alert > > >> > > >> > > >>>Redmond, WA -- Microsoft announced today that the > > >>>official release date for the new operating system > > >>>"Windows 2000" will be delayed until the second quarter > > >>>of 1901. > ^^^^ > Because it's not Y2K compliant :-) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 09:50:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29233 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:50:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [12.9.219.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29226 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from HARLIE.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [12.9.219.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA07743; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:50:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Greg Lehey cc: Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-Reply-To: <19981219142342.G24125@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Possibly. It'd be even nicer if Corel would allow > > the free version to be a package. Jordan, could > > you step forward and ask Corel's CEO about this? > > It'd be nice. I seriously doubt that Corel would do it, but I don't > suppose it would harm to ask. I'm not sure, since on the web site they talk about the fact that this free version is going to be bundled on some of the Linux CD-Rom distributions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:09:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24722 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24716 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00522; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192206.OAA00522@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:59:05 MST." <4.1.19981218205611.06c17f10@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:06:45 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 07:45 PM 12/18/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> So far, I've never encountered a Linux binary that ran reliably under > >> FreeBSD unless it was branded. > > > >You can't be using much then. The only things that need to be branded > >are static binaries, > > I'm not using many, because so far they've been a royal pain in the > derriere. One of the most frustrating was the "Free Pascal" Turbo > Pascal clone for Linux. I think you set yourself up for this one. 8) > It and every object file it generated had to > be branded to work. And linking failed unpredictably, even under > 3.0-current which uses a Linux ELF ld(1). I am still uncertain as > to why it is so troublesome; it doesn't use kernel threads or > anything else that's been known to cause problems with Linux apps. ktrace is your friend, perhaps. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:12:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24886 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00584; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192209.OAA00584@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Lehey , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:40:26 MST." <4.1.19981218223339.065129a0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:09:47 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 09:29 PM 12/18/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Give me a contact name and a phone number - I don't even know who > >Corel's CEO is and, in the overall set of things I have to worry about > >right now, finding out just isn't a big priority. I already have > >plenty of things on my top priority list. :-) > > The CEO's name is Cowpland. Michael Cowpland. And their corporate > offices are at (613)728-8200. They're in Ontario province, which > I believe puts them on Eastern time. You may want to talk to SDC, not Corel. www.sdcorp.com -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:18:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25443 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25435 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00627; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:28:35 PST." <64928.914045315@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:14:47 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation > > process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad > > HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting > > it, maybe early next week. > > A port which just automates this would be a lot more useful in any > case. Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build a PLIST. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:23:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25831 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25826 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA07671; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:23:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981219152107.06e09da0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:22:29 -0700 To: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Mike Smith , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:14 PM 12/19/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I >tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to >tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you >don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build >a PLIST. What did OpenBSD do? I hear they have a port which fixes some serious security problems. (If you install WP8 as root, or even RUN it as root, you can open security holes; see Bugtraq.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:23:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25847 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25842 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA07668; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:23:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981219151827.06e07410@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:19:46 -0700 To: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Mike Jackson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19981219142342.G24125@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:50 AM 12/19/98 -0800, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: >I'm not sure, since on the web site they talk about the fact that this >free version is going to be bundled on some of the Linux CD-Rom >distributions. This supports the notion that they DO want it distributed far and wide. We should do this and also lobby for a native BSD compilation. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:30:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (mercury-1-87.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.87.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26463 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:30:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199812192230.OAA26463@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 17201 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1998 16:31:27 -0600 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 19 Dec 1998 16:31:27 -0600 To: Mike Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:14:47 PST." <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:31:26 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith wrote: } > > I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation } > > process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad } > > HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting } > > it, maybe early next week. } > } > A port which just automates this would be a lot more useful in any } > case. } } Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I } tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to } tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you } don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build } a PLIST. Can't you ask the user to tell your script which printer they want, then have your script pass that along to the installer? Or does the installer present some kind of menu to pick from or something hideous like that? -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 14:56:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28678 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28673 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00957; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192254.OAA00957@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jon Hamilton cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:31:26 CST." <199812192230.OAA26463@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:25 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In message <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith wrote: > } > > I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation > } > > process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad > } > > HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting > } > > it, maybe early next week. > } > > } > A port which just automates this would be a lot more useful in any > } > case. > } > } Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I > } tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to > } tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you > } don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build > } a PLIST. > > Can't you ask the user to tell your script which printer they want, then > have your script pass that along to the installer? Or does the installer > present some kind of menu to pick from or something hideous like that? You got it. Worse still, the list of printers supported is buried inside the install executable, so you'd have to extract that list first, preset it to the user, then generate a pile of cursor movements and all sorts of crap. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 15:15:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:15:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00558 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06207; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:25:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19981220102533.C6022@caamora.com.au> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:25:33 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com> <199812192230.OAA26463@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812192230.OAA26463@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jon Hamilton on Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:31:26PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:31:26PM -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > In message <199812192214.OAA00627@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith wrote: > } > > I had mostly finished writing a web page detailing the installation > } > > process in exquisite detail when I discovered that WP8 generates bad > } > > HTML. I'm about resigned to simply cleaning it up manually and posting > } > > it, maybe early next week. > } > > } > A port which just automates this would be a lot more useful in any > } > case. > } > } Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I > } tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to > } tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you > } don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build > } a PLIST. > > Can't you ask the user to tell your script which printer they want, then > have your script pass that along to the installer? Or does the installer > present some kind of menu to pick from or something hideous like that? i am a wordperfect user from back when xt's were considered big buisness machines and wp v4.1 was in testing .. grin. anyway, yes the printer install is a menu that you scroll and insert diskette number ?? if teh printer you want is not on teh diskette the printer install routine is currently reading. one way out of this dilema is to do a fefault printer install, teh std wp typewriter that will dump to a very basic printer or to a wp file. then after all this is over and done with, the user could then go back and invoke teh wp setup program to add an additional printer(s) of choice. i havent seen the wp8 for linux yet, and just flying on how wp used to do thes things .. i had a similar problem when converting from ms dos to ibm os/2 operating a few to many years ago. well just a thought regards all the best for christmass and new year. jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 15:28:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01518 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01510 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01197; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192325.PAA01197@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:22:29 MST." <4.1.19981219152107.06e09da0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:25:43 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 02:14 PM 12/19/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > >Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I > >tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to > >tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you > >don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build > >a PLIST. > > What did OpenBSD do? I hear they have a port which fixes some serious > security problems. (If you install WP8 as root, or even RUN it as > root, you can open security holes; see Bugtraq.) I'm looking at their port's Makefile at the moment; it's a bit fragile in that it assumes that the user reads their instructions and installs it into /usr/local/corel. The security issues are handled by using a wrapper script; we could probably go with this or something very similar without too much trouble. I'm just bummed by the installation process. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 15:31:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01725 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01718 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01225; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192328.PAA01225@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:25:43 PST." <199812192325.PAA01197@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:28:37 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Automating the WP install in a tidy fashion is close to impossible; I > > >tried this with WP7. If you feed the installer keystrokes in order to > > >tell it where to put things, the user can't select a printer. If you > > >don't, there's no way to force the install location, so you can't build > > >a PLIST. > > > > What did OpenBSD do? I hear they have a port which fixes some serious > > security problems. (If you install WP8 as root, or even RUN it as > > root, you can open security holes; see Bugtraq.) > > I'm looking at their port's Makefile at the moment; it's a bit fragile > in that it assumes that the user reads their instructions and installs > it into /usr/local/corel. Actually, I take that back. Reading their patches, they appear to have worked out how to seed the default installation directory. It'll still have to be interactive, but this one is ready to roll. I'll hit it in a minute. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 15:38:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02460 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:38:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA22445; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:07:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA26390; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:07:35 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981220100735.L24125@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:07:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith , Brett Glass Cc: Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) References: <4.1.19981218205611.06c17f10@mail.lariat.org> <199812192206.OAA00522@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812192206.OAA00522@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:06:45PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 19 December 1998 at 14:06:45 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > [Brett Glass] >> >> It and every object file it generated had to >> be branded to work. And linking failed unpredictably, even under >> 3.0-current which uses a Linux ELF ld(1). I am still uncertain as >> to why it is so troublesome; it doesn't use kernel threads or >> anything else that's been known to cause problems with Linux apps. > > ktrace is your friend, perhaps. Once somebody fixes it to trace Linux executables. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 15:48:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04330 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04325 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01331; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:45:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812192345.PAA01331@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:07:35 +1030." <19981220100735.L24125@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:45:55 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Saturday, 19 December 1998 at 14:06:45 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > [Brett Glass] > >> > >> It and every object file it generated had to > >> be branded to work. And linking failed unpredictably, even under > >> 3.0-current which uses a Linux ELF ld(1). I am still uncertain as > >> to why it is so troublesome; it doesn't use kernel threads or > >> anything else that's been known to cause problems with Linux apps. > > > > ktrace is your friend, perhaps. > > Once somebody fixes it to trace Linux executables. It's never needed fixing. What do you think we've been using all along? Do you ever read the -emulation list? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 16:19:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09446 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09439 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA08582; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:19:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981219171741.06dad040@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:19:00 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199812192325.PAA01197@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:25 PM 12/19/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >I'm looking at their port's Makefile at the moment; it's a bit fragile >in that it assumes that the user reads their instructions and installs >it into /usr/local/corel. Gee, that's a bit egotistical -- putting themselves right under /usr/local instead of in, say, /usr/local/etc/corel (which would follow the convention used by apache and others). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 16:26:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09750 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:26:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09745 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:26:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01579; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812200024.QAA01579@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:19:00 MST." <4.1.19981219171741.06dad040@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:09 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 03:25 PM 12/19/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > >I'm looking at their port's Makefile at the moment; it's a bit fragile > >in that it assumes that the user reads their instructions and installs > >it into /usr/local/corel. > > Gee, that's a bit egotistical -- putting themselves right under > /usr/local instead of in, say, /usr/local/etc/corel (which would > follow the convention used by apache and others). Not sure if I mislead you here; they recommend installation of the entire packge in /usr/local/corel; we do this with the Acrobat Reader but not Netscape, which lives in /usr/local/lib (where I plan to put WordPerfect). At any rate, I'm working on this now. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 16:32:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10646 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA08736; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:32:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981219173154.06b97f10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:32:21 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: This just in: Microsoft/Sears Merger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Microsoft, Sears Plan Merger REDMOND, WA -- A giant of the software industry is planning a merger with a giant of retailing. Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) has announced its intention to merge with Sears, Roebuck and Co. (S) effective in early 1999. "Our financial performance did not meet our earnings growth goal, and shareholder value did not increase," said Sears CEO Arthur C. Martinez in the company's 1997 corporate report. This disappointing trend continued into 1998, when Sears' total domestic store revenues for the four weeks ending November 28, 1998 were $2.61 billion. This was 4.5 percent below the four weeks ending November 29, 1997. This may have made Sears a tempting acquisition target for cash-rich Microsoft, which in 1998 surpassed General Electric to attain the largest market capitalization of any American company. "Imagine a Kenmore refrigerator that knows when you get low on milk and orders a fresh carton automatically," said Microsoft chairman Bill Gates. "We'll not only provide the Windows CE software for the refrigerator, but will also route consumers' food orders through our central ordering system in return for a small commission. We'll even be able to track what consumers eat and sell that information to health insurers so that they can rate customers' risk of cancer and heart disease more accurately." Gates also identified other possible fits for Microsoft technology within Sears' portfolio of brands. "Imagine a DieHard battery with a Windows microprocessor inside." When asked what purpose would be served by placing the car's computer inside the battery, Gates replied, "It's integration. We'd cut a deal with Ford so that you'd have to use our batteries, or your Explorer would not start." When asked to define the word "integration," however, Gates said that he could not recall its meaning. There may also have been other motives for the acquisition. "It's Sears' information resources that make this deal so valuable to Microsoft," said a Microsoft executive who declined to be named. "Millions of Americans shop at Sears and carry Sears credit cards. And every time a consumer makes a credit purchase at Sears, his or her signature is recorded digitally. We'll gain access to that database, too." Sears' aggressive telemarketing tactics and lack of responsiveness to consumers (the telephones at Sears stores are no longer answered by human beings but by a voice response system that cuts the caller off if a department's phone is busy) also mesh well with those of the software giant. Microsoft has recently released test versions of products that require users to supply personal information before they can use the software they have purchased, making them prime targets for direct marketing campaigns. Microsoft has also sought to dictate the appearance of computer makers' products despite vendors' efforts to customize their machines to promote flexibility, ease of use, and novel features. "Microsoft has the capital to acquire nearly anything," said Brett Glass, author of this completely bogus news item. "No, they're not REALLY acquiring Sears (as far as I know), but what if they did? What would happen if your Ford/Microsoft Explorer crashed, or your Microsoft/Kenmore refrigerator ordered 2 tons of bananas by mistake? Now THERE'S plenty of food for thought." [] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 16:37:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:37:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11043 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4035.ime.net [209.90.195.45]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id TAA25612; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:35:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981219192638.009f1ed0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:30:39 -0500 To: Brett Glass , Mike Smith From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) Cc: Mike Smith , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Jackson , "Eric J. Schwertfeger" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981219171741.06dad040@mail.lariat.org> References: <199812192325.PAA01197@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:19 PM 12/19/98 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >At 03:25 PM 12/19/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >>I'm looking at their port's Makefile at the moment; it's a bit fragile >>in that it assumes that the user reads their instructions and installs >>it into /usr/local/corel. > >Gee, that's a bit egotistical -- putting themselves right under >/usr/local instead of in, say, /usr/local/etc/corel (which would >follow the convention used by apache and others). > >--Brett Take a look, Hughes's MSQL does it too.. if I recall MYSQL does too.. my MSQL is in /usr/local/Hughes, which is the default. I find it convenient, but also a pain in the ass to have to add to my path. Additional programs should go in /usr/local/bin, if it's a multi-file/tree deal it should be like Apache does and throw itself into like /usr/local/etc/... What we need is some sort of insightful RFC on where vended software can go.. A whole protocol on installation dirs... I gotta say, at least FreeBSD (and many other forms of UNIX) has an easy tree. Solaris has like /opt and /usr/ucb and all these inane little crannies where software is installed. Many of them aren't even in the default path. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 17:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14657 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14652 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA22759; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:43:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA26766; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:43:35 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981220114334.Z24125@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:43:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) References: <19981220100735.L24125@freebie.lemis.com> <199812192345.PAA01331@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812192345.PAA01331@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 03:45:55PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 19 December 1998 at 15:45:55 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Saturday, 19 December 1998 at 14:06:45 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >>> [Brett Glass] >>>> >>>> It and every object file it generated had to >>>> be branded to work. And linking failed unpredictably, even under >>>> 3.0-current which uses a Linux ELF ld(1). I am still uncertain as >>>> to why it is so troublesome; it doesn't use kernel threads or >>>> anything else that's been known to cause problems with Linux apps. >>> >>> ktrace is your friend, perhaps. >> >> Once somebody fixes it to trace Linux executables. > > It's never needed fixing. Ah. On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:07:39 +0930 (CST), Michael Smith wrote: >> OK, I didn't mention the setpgids and the mincores, because they seem >> to occur more often in such loops. But why the TIOCSETD? > > I think you're suffering from syscall confusion here. The BSD ktrace isn't > much help when it comes to tracing Linux syscalls. > > Specifically, mincore() is 78, but linux syscall 78 is gettimeofday(), > and setpgid() is 82, which is linux's select(). Fortunately, ioctl() > is 54 for both systems. > What do you think we've been using all along? I don't know. You didn't tell me. > Do you ever read the -emulation list? Frequently. What are you thinking of? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 19 17:52:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17668 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles151.castles.com [208.214.165.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17663 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04084; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199812200150.RAA04084@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8.0 For Linux works :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:43:34 +1030." <19981220114334.Z24125@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:50:27 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [kdump/ktrace for Linux executable debugging) > > What do you think we've been using all along? > > I don't know. You didn't tell me. > > > Do you ever read the -emulation list? > > Frequently. What are you thinking of? The dozens of messages I've posted referring to linux_kdump, and the hundreds of occasions where kdump/linux_ktrace output has been posted and dissected. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message