From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 31 06:05:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02258 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 06:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02239; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 06:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-058.thuntek.net [207.66.52.58]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA10525; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:05:51 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36B4715D.DB8FA9C9@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:06:05 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The ISP Pyramid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After searching long and hard, and even asking on -isp, I finally found a FreeBSD ISP, http://www.thuntek.net. It was actually a SOLARIS-based ISP who steered me to thuntek, and they don't advertise themselves as BSD-based. I think a worthy project would be to get all FreeBSD-based ISP's to fess up and list themselves on the FreeBSD.org website, at the very least. The level of access I get -- and the inside scoop I have on THEIR operations -- is an order of magnitude better than I get with CIS or IBM.net or any of the others. I've got a normal shell account, personal website, and 56K access, all for the same $20 everybody else wants. The more we can support each other, the better. I'm sure there are loads of FreeBSD ISP's and Web Hosts out there, and we users should support them. Needless to say, MHO is that they should proudly display 'Powered by FreeBSD' as well. :-))) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 31 09:46:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25570 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rainey.blueneptune.com (rainey.blueneptune.com [209.133.45.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25554; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michael@rainey.blueneptune.com) Received: (from michael@localhost) by rainey.blueneptune.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA26049; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michael) Message-Id: <199901311746.JAA26049@rainey.blueneptune.com> Subject: Re: The ISP Pyramid In-Reply-To: <36B4715D.DB8FA9C9@thuntek.net> from Don Wilde at "Jan 31, 99 07:06:05 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Don Wilde) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG From: michael@blueneptune.com Reply-To: michael@blueneptune.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > After searching long and hard, and even asking on -isp, I finally found > a FreeBSD ISP, http://www.thuntek.net. It was actually a SOLARIS-based > ISP who steered me to thuntek, and they don't advertise themselves as > BSD-based. I think a worthy project would be to get all FreeBSD-based > ISP's to fess up and list themselves on the FreeBSD.org website, at the > very least. You mean like what's found here? http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/gallery.html -- Michael Bryan michael@blueneptune.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 31 10:38:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01898 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01883; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-060.thuntek.net [207.66.52.60]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA10988; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:15:54 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36B4AC05.9ABB43B3@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:16:21 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: michael@blueneptune.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The ISP Pyramid References: <199901311746.JAA26049@rainey.blueneptune.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The gallery has gotten very large and disorganized. Yes, there are many ISP's there, including TNT (thuntek). Perhaps a better way to phrase my thought would be, 'Can we organize this so somebody can find somebody useful?'. I think it is very important that we support each other: ISP's to give us access to the full benefit of their systems, and users to support the ISP's. I know that I'm going to be able to make far better use of TNT's resources than I would Earthlink's, for example. Likewise, as a FreeBSD user, I can accomplish far more than a W95 user with any provider. This kind of synergy is something we should all realize and promote, because it showcases the power of FreeBSD and its high-powered connectivity capabilities. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 31 11:11:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06449 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:11:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06444; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA10536; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:11:03 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA02573; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:11:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:10:27 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The ISP Pyramid In-Reply-To: <36B4715D.DB8FA9C9@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Don Wilde wrote: >After searching long and hard, and even asking on -isp, I finally found >a FreeBSD ISP, http://www.thuntek.net. It was actually a SOLARIS-based There is serv.net. My friend was checking her email from my home computer. Imagine my surprise when I saw "FreeBSD (itchy)..." :) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 31 21:39:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24125 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24094; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:39:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02365; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:39:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36B53DF8.FF495144@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:39:04 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The ISP Pyramid References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Don Wilde wrote: > > >After searching long and hard, and even asking on -isp, I finally found > >a FreeBSD ISP, http://www.thuntek.net. It was actually a SOLARIS-based > > There is serv.net. > > My friend was checking her email from my home computer. Imagine my > surprise when I saw "FreeBSD (itchy)..." :) If you want to include the small ones, there's USWest.net. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Feb 1 02:26:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27379 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27353 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from magus@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.228] (helo=magus) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 107GYD-0002Mq-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:25:53 -0700 From: "Anthony Chavez" To: "FreeBSD-Advocacy Mailing List" Subject: RE: The ISP Pyramid Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01be4dcd$3ee545c0$e40746a6@magus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Wes Peters > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 10:39 PM > To: Jason C. Wells > Cc: Don Wilde; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: The ISP Pyramid > > If you want to include the small ones, there's USWest.net. ;^) You shouldn't advocate this, though, because as we all know, US West SUCKS. :-) -- "Do what keepeth thou from wilting shall be the loophole in the law." Anthony Chavez ICQ: 17901391 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/M/MU/S/TW d-()>---(++) s+:+>+:- a?>- C++++(---) UBS++++(+)>$ P+>+++++ L- E+++ W--(+) N+(+++) o? K? w---(+++)>$ O- M--(+)>$ V-- PS+++() PE Y+>++ PGP>+++ t---(+) 5-- X- R++* !tv b+>++ DI--- D---(++) G-() e+*>++++ h!>++ r>+++ y+++++** ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Feb 1 11:01:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29226 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29205 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.152]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA914 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:01:32 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:10:25 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Hardware revisited Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, lame question mayhaps, but a few months ago some people were asking about hardware working with FreeBSD. What ever happened to the list? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 2 11:20:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20261 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20256 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07993 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:20:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:20:40 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone know if Walnut Creek has a reseller program for FreeBSD merchandise? I'm going to try to convince some local stores to carry FreeBSD (they carry Linux, so maybe they'll listen? :) ) and it would be very handy if I could point them to some nice, clear, documentation on what is available to them and what they'd have to do themselves. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 09:32:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16231 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16191 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 17D542EE1A; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:32:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Licia Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA16203 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Licia wrote: > > Does anyone know if Walnut Creek has a reseller program for FreeBSD > merchandise? I'm going to try to convince some local stores to carry > FreeBSD (they carry Linux, so maybe they'll listen? :) ) and it would be > very handy if I could point them to some nice, clear, documentation on > what is available to them and what they'd have to do themselves. > > The frist thing we need to do is to convince them to offer a "boxed" product like the Linux people do. It has become a staple of software these days. Just having disks or Disks in the back of the book makes still look like Linux did 6 years ago and even then I seem to remember boxed sets of Linux being around. Microsucks doesn't win by having a better OS, just by telling everyone it does and by making it Appear to be cool. We still "look like" the underdog, so that is were we may stay in the press until that changes. Nicole |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 13:37:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27385 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27372 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17264; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:36:55 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Nicole Harrington , Licia Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i `From: Josef Grosch In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole Harrington on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: > > On 02-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Licia wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if Walnut Creek has a reseller program for FreeBSD > > merchandise? I'm going to try to convince some local stores to carry > > FreeBSD (they carry Linux, so maybe they'll listen? :) ) and it would be > > very handy if I could point them to some nice, clear, documentation on > > what is available to them and what they'd have to do themselves. > > > > > The frist thing we need to do is to convince them to offer a "boxed" product > like the Linux people do. It has become a staple of software these days. Just > having disks or Disks in the back of the book makes still look like Linux did > 6 years ago and even then I seem to remember boxed sets of Linux being > around. > > Microsucks doesn't win by having a better OS, just by telling everyone > it does and by making it Appear to be cool. > > We still "look like" the underdog, so that is were we may stay in the press > until that changes. I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of microsludge software), Eudora Pro. Lets see.... we have a "quick start guide", an eudora pro cdrom, a technical support information paper with all sorts of important numbers (I secretly think they are just random numbers), an advertisement for cvideo-mail, "Attach full motion video and sound to your e-mail" ugh!, a manul, and a registration card. Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking man pages. In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be carrying the whole load for us. My $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 13:53:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29798 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29793 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:53:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-087.thuntek.net [207.66.52.87]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA14320; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:53:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36B8D36D.1057C696@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:53:33 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch wrote: > [snip] > whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old > problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking > man pages. In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be > carrying the whole load for us. > The big problem isn't the packaging, it's the positioning. We still haven't settled the question of what we want to market FreeBSD as. The reality is that most of what FreeBSD excels at is stuff only we techno-weenies care about. If we want to be the next Red Hat for the desktop, we need to do some serious script work and GUI front-end work, as was discussed here on -advocacy a while back. If, on the other hand, we want to position ourselves as the ultimo server system, booting Novell, Solaris and NT out the back door, then we're a lot closer. See the OpenBSD server article in today's Daemonnews. If that's the market, we're almost there. We need specific documentation with examples of SAMBA, Apache, fwtk, ppp, CVSup and Sendmail setup, a front-end manual with more pictures to confuse da users, and a documented list of applicable O'Reilly, P-H and A-W books. Targeting the (large and small) business server market would be a much better first step, playing to our strengths. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 13:54:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29933 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:54:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sss00205.schwab.com (sss00205.schwab.com [162.93.15.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29924 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Laura.Hudson@Schwab.COM) Received: (from root@localhost) by fire sf id QAA08919 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from s0001asf.schwab.com(162.93.32.201) by sss00205 via smap (V2.1/2.1+anti-relay+anti-spam) id xma008893; Wed, 3 Feb 99 16:40:26 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by ihop sf id QAA04446 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: ( Schwab Email ) by copymail sf with ESMTP id QAA04438 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by N2101PMX.nt.schwab.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:41:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Hudson, Laura" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:41:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm no graphic designer, but I'd be more than willing to help. I think FreeBSD needs to advertise, and I'd be more than willing to chip in time, money, and whatever else I can to develop a marketing strategy, including a few magazine ads and a Box design... Maybe we should write FreeBSD for dummies, make it fun and light hearted, and aimed at the unix-newbie. "The complete freebsd" seems to be aimed towards people that know unix... If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user base, but we have to be prepared to help newbies. -Laura Hudson > > Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me > the diffs", but > we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person > a few weeks to > whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling > block is our old > problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book > without the freaking > man pages. In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be > carrying the whole load for us. > > > My $0.02 > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 14:31:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06426 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06418 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA13358; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:32:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com cc: Nicole Harrington , Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:36:55 PST." <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:32:18 -0800 Message-ID: <13355.918081138@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point > several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for > FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't > say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to > augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of We fully plan to, and it's in production now. > Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but > we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to > whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old Marketing person? What's THAT? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 14:36:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07203 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07198 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA13400; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Hudson, Laura" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:41:06 EST." Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:37:21 -0800 Message-ID: <13396.918081441@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Maybe we should write FreeBSD for dummies, make it fun and light hearted, > and aimed at the unix-newbie. "The complete freebsd" seems to be aimed > towards people that know unix... > > If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user base, but we have > to be prepared to help newbies. Which reminds me... Does that mean I can sign you up to write this book SAMS publishing just asked for - "How to become a FreeBSD expert in 30 days?" :-) The question isn't actually all that serious, but their desire for a book is. I'm already not writing the book I promised Addison-Wesley so I can't really take on another book to not write at this time. Anyone interested? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 15:00:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10842 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10819 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12526; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:00:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:00:09 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-Reply-To: <13396.918081441@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Maybe we should write FreeBSD for dummies, make it fun and light hearted, > > and aimed at the unix-newbie. "The complete freebsd" seems to be aimed > > towards people that know unix... > > > > If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user base, but we have > > to be prepared to help newbies. > > Which reminds me... > > Does that mean I can sign you up to write this book SAMS publishing > just asked for - "How to become a FreeBSD expert in 30 days?" :-) > > The question isn't actually all that serious, but their desire for a > book is. I'm already not writing the book I promised Addison-Wesley > so I can't really take on another book to not write at this time. > Anyone interested? > > - Jordan I don't consider myself a FreeBSD expert, but I am interested in hearing about the request. Did they give any guidelines, an outline, etc for the project? Any specific size range, target audience, etc? Depending on the assumptions about the audience, it should be possible to put together something reasonable without too much fuss... [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ FreeBSD : The last Windows upgrade you'll ever need. [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 16:17:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26796 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26781 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:17:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09653; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:17:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd009506; Wed Feb 3 17:16:56 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11973; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:16:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040016.RAA11973@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:16:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, nicole@nmhtech.com, licia@o-o.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13355.918081138@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 3, 99 02:32:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but > > we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to > > whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old > > Marketing person? What's THAT? :-) "Excuse me, I couldn't help overhearing. I'm the V.P. in charge of immediately implementing things that could be damaging to the company..." Better make your references more obscure... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 22:31:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23538 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23533 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1B89; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:31:06 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:39:52 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Hudson, Laura" Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Laura, On 03-Feb-99 Hudson, Laura wrote: > If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user base, but we > have to be prepared to help newbies. OK, but do ye mean this in the context of online help or physical help (as in books and such)? Because online help is emerging faster and faster nowadays. Just take a peek at www.freebsdrocks.com www.freebsdmall.com (the support stuff) www.freebsdzine.org undernet.freebsdzine.org www.freebsddiary.com www.daemonnews.org --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 3 23:45:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02238 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:45:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02212 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA00659; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:44:58 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990204184454.61902@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:44:54 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <13396.918081441@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <13396.918081441@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:37:21PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:37:21PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Maybe we should write FreeBSD for dummies, make it fun and light hearted, > > and aimed at the unix-newbie. "The complete freebsd" seems to be aimed > > towards people that know unix... > > > > If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user base, but we have > > to be prepared to help newbies. > > Which reminds me... > > Does that mean I can sign you up to write this book SAMS publishing > just asked for - "How to become a FreeBSD expert in 30 days?" :-) > > The question isn't actually all that serious, but their desire for a > book is. I'm already not writing the book I promised Addison-Wesley > so I can't really take on another book to not write at this time. > Anyone interested? I've been molesting an outline for the last couple of months, but I don't know whether what I'm doing is anything like what a publisher would find appealing, let alone the masses. Maybe when it gets more together I'll have the confidence to find out. Anyway, we need more topics like this that bring the women out of hiding :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 02:41:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22599 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22591 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id TAA25757; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:41:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36B96D0E.10227934@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:49:02 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <13396.918081441@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990204184454.61902@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > > Anyway, we need more topics like this that bring the women out of hiding :-) Well, so far, on all freebsd lists I subscribe to, -advocacy seems to be the one with the highest ratio of non-completely-lurking women around... I wonder why... (well, aside from the nasty flame fests that sometimes grace lists like -current) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com She just looked at him over the rotating pencil like, how slow can a mammal be and still have respiratory functions? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 03:31:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27941 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 03:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27924 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 03:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05190 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:31:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:31:30 +0100 (CET) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199902041131.MAA05190@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Newsgroups: list.freebsd-advocacy Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote in list.freebsd-advocacy: > > I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point > > several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for > > FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't > > say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to > > augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of > > We fully plan to, and it's in production now. Great news! However, there's one thing which should be taken into consideration: FreeBSD needs more resellers outside the USA. I am from Germany, so I can only tell about the experiences that I made here; maybe (hopefully) the situation is better in other countries. Personally I'm on Walnut Creek's subscription plan, using a credit card. Believe it or not, I primarily bought that credit card for that sole purpose, because there is just no alternative to receive FreeBSD CD-ROMs within a reasonable amount of time after release. Sure, there are a few resellers ("Lehmanns" comes to mind), but they're way behind the release schedule, and they don't offer subscriptions (as far as I could find out). When I looked for 2.2.8 in Lehmanns online catalogue in December, the latest release that I could find was 2.2.6 (and it was advertised as "new", if I recall correctly). Ordering directly from WC isn't possible for most folks here, due to lack of credit cards. The computing centre of the local university has a subscription for a Linux distribution ("SuSE"), but no FreeBSD subscription, even though there are more FreeBSD boxes than Linux boxes at the computing centre. The reason for that is that educational institutions are simply not allowed to order by credit card or any prepaid method (the only way is to pay AFTER receipt of the invoice, by wire transfer or similar). So I ended up copying the CD- ROMs that I ordered for myself privately. This is definitely not a very satisfying situation, for both of us. About presence in shops: Zero. I have never seen a shop, no matter how small or big, carrying any FreeBSD stuff. (Not to mention that most computer shop people don't even know what "FreeBSD" is, but that's a different story.) I also wanted to order some of those FreeBSD stickers and logo plates from WC, to decorate some of the more prominently located machines, thus helping to advertise the OS. However, shipping cost of $9 nearly double the total cost, which doesn't make it very attractive. Bottom line: If there was an easy way to order recent FreeBSD CD-ROM sets in Germany (and other FreeBSD products), it would improve FreeBSD's position here considerably. Just my 0.02 Euros. Regards Oliver (PS: The Reply-To is set back to the list, which I read. If you want to reply privately, please see my signature.) -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 04:28:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07070 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (d1-ppp-149.connect.ie [194.106.128.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA07061 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA04122; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:10:16 GMT (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990204121112.007d2900@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:11:12 +0000 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Michael Doyle Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: Oliver Fromme In-Reply-To: <199902041131.MAA05190@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:31 04/02/99 +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: >Bottom line: If there was an easy way to order recent FreeBSD >CD-ROM sets in Germany (and other FreeBSD products), it would >improve FreeBSD's position here considerably. > In the UK, there is a reseller "The Public Domain Software Library" I have ordered my CDs through them. It takes them about a month to get CDs in after WC do a release. Their phone is: +44 1892 883298 And their fax: +44 1892 667473 Hope this helps. Mike <>< ============================================================ ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 *** NOTE: our domain name HAS changed. If you are still using the old "co-operation-north.ie" domain for web site or email addresses, please update it. ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 04:29:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07124 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (d1-ppp-149.connect.ie [194.106.128.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA07105 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04045; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:39:04 GMT (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990204112255.008077d0@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:22:55 +0000 To: Don Wilde From: Michael Doyle Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B8D36D.1057C696@thuntek.net> References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 14:53 03/02/99 -0800, Don Wilde wrote: >Josef Grosch wrote: >[snip] >> whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old >> problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking >> man pages. In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be >> carrying the whole load for us. >> [snip again] > If that's the market, we're almost there. We need specific documentation > with examples of SAMBA, Apache, fwtk, ppp, CVSup and Sendmail setup, a > front-end manual with more pictures to confuse da users, and a > documented list of applicable O'Reilly, P-H and A-W books. Targeting the > (large and small) business server market would be a much better first > step, playing to our strengths. As a *user* who uses FreeBSD for just this type of back end server stuff, you're right on the ball. Other pointers to include in the manual would be Squid (for Web Proxy) or either/both of the Firewall solutions (for a full internet gateway). I like the sound of this book idea - unfortunately I don't feel I'm enough of an expert to contribute - I'm still at the stage of finding out how to do these things myself. Mike <>< ============================================================ ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 *** NOTE: our domain name HAS changed. If you are still using the old "co-operation-north.ie" domain for web site or email addresses, please update it. ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 04:44:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09009 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08996 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 108O9C-0003WB-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:44:43 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA02731 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:44:39 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06924; Thu, 4 Feb 99 12:44:38 GMT Message-Id: <36B99614.67D485A7@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:44:04 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <199902041131.MAA05190@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oliver Fromme wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote in list.freebsd-advocacy: > > > I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point > > > several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for > > > FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't > > > say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to > > > augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of > > > > We fully plan to, and it's in production now. > > Great news! > > However, there's one thing which should be taken into > consideration: FreeBSD needs more resellers outside the > USA. > > I am from Germany, so I can only tell about the experiences > that I made here; maybe (hopefully) the situation is better > in other countries. > > Personally I'm on Walnut Creek's subscription plan, using a > credit card. Believe it or not, I primarily bought that > credit card for that sole purpose, because there is just no > alternative to receive FreeBSD CD-ROMs within a reasonable > amount of time after release. > Same here, I even upgraded the shipping to DHL 3-day at US$18 instead of US$9, although 2.2.8 took a long time to arrive, after UK resellers had it in stock. The main reason for the subscription + DHL with WC was to get the CD's before the resellers. I thought that subscribers were the first people new stuff was shipped to. > Sure, there are a few resellers ("Lehmanns" comes to mind), > but they're way behind the release schedule, and they don't > offer subscriptions (as far as I could find out). When I > looked for 2.2.8 in Lehmanns online catalogue in December, > the latest release that I could find was 2.2.6 (and it was > advertised as "new", if I recall correctly). > > Ordering directly from WC isn't possible for most folks here, > due to lack of credit cards. The computing centre of the > local university has a subscription for a Linux distribution > ("SuSE"), but no FreeBSD subscription, even though there are > more FreeBSD boxes than Linux boxes at the computing centre. > The reason for that is that educational institutions are > simply not allowed to order by credit card or any prepaid > method (the only way is to pay AFTER receipt of the invoice, > by wire transfer or similar). So I ended up copying the CD- > ROMs that I ordered for myself privately. This is definitely > not a very satisfying situation, for both of us. > > About presence in shops: Zero. I have never seen a shop, no > matter how small or big, carrying any FreeBSD stuff. (Not to > mention that most computer shop people don't even know what > "FreeBSD" is, but that's a different story.) > There are several suppliers in the UK that keep up to date with versions. DGC-NMS is one (http://www.dgs-nms.co.uk). Maybe it might be easier for residents of Germany to order from the UK using methods other than credit card than the US, given that we're both in the EU (even though our stupid govt. didn't sign up for the Euro). > I also wanted to order some of those FreeBSD stickers and logo > plates from WC, to decorate some of the more prominently located > machines, thus helping to advertise the OS. However, shipping > cost of $9 nearly double the total cost, which doesn't make it > very attractive. > We could definitely do with someone in Europe to stock FreeBSD "accessories", T-shirts, polo shirts, case plates etc. > Bottom line: If there was an easy way to order recent FreeBSD > CD-ROM sets in Germany (and other FreeBSD products), it would > improve FreeBSD's position here considerably. > > Just my 0.02 Euros. > > Regards > Oliver > > (PS: The Reply-To is set back to the list, which I read. If > you want to reply privately, please see my signature.) > > -- > Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany > (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) > > "In jedem Stck Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" > (Terry Pratchett) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 05:45:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16630 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail0.mailsender.net (mail0.mailsender.net [209.132.1.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA16624 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danarchy@endeneu.com) Received: from candyman (207.109.3.25) by mail0.mailsender.net; 4 Feb 1999 05:43:48 -0800 Message-ID: <36b9a41536bb2299@mail0.mailsender.net> (added by mail0.mailsender.net) From: "Dan Dockery" To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:55:08 -0600 Reply-To: "Dan Dockery" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Standard (2.00.1500) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Another thing that would probably help raise awareness of FreeBSD would be a certification program of some sort. Consulting companies tend to be big on being able to say "This guy has an MCSE and a CNE and a CCIE, etc. etc." You could call it a FBSDE or something similar. There are a few companies who are coming out with Linux certification programs (Redhat and Digital Metrics come to mind), but the problem with that is the certifications will (most likely) be distribution-specific. FBSD has the advantage that there is only one distribution. -Dan "Come give anyone of us, for instance, a little more independence, untie our hands, widen the spheres of our activity, relax the controls and we -- yes, I assure you -- we would immediately beg to be under control again." -Dostoevsky "Notes from Underground" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 06:35:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22871 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:35:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.WorldMediaCo.com ([207.252.121.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22865 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@open-systems.net) Received: from freebsd.omaha.com ([207.252.122.220]) by mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55573U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:29:35 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:35:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "Open Systems Inc." X-Sender: opsys@freebsd.omaha.com To: Dan Dockery cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-Reply-To: <36b9a41536bb2299@mail0.mailsender.net> (added by mail0.mailsender.net) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Dan Dockery wrote: > Another thing that would probably help raise awareness of FreeBSD would > be a certification program of some sort. Consulting companies tend to be > big on being able to say "This guy has an MCSE and a CNE and a CCIE, etc. > etc." You could call it a FBSDE or something similar. There are a few > companies who are coming out with Linux certification programs (Redhat > and Digital Metrics come to mind), but the problem with that is the > certifications will (most likely) be distribution-specific. FBSD has the > advantage that there is only one distribution. I would agree a FreeBSD certified course or test would be cool. But the fact is FreeBSD is not large enough for that to mean anything. It might to some big shops that rely on FreeBSD. But 99.99% of all clients will wonder what that is. I think the best effort we can make is to get a boxed FreeBSD distribution out into stores, and write another book. The man pages have to go from greg's book IMO. No one bought the ORA 4.4BSD books because they we're just reprinted man pages. I would suggest to greg that the man pages from his book be removed. That greatly decreases the size of the book though. Another thing that was mentioned is the lack of GUI tools for managing a FBSD box. Someone at berkeley is writing a set of GUI tools based on Qt. It looks promising. I recently joined an all NT shop *UGH*, and have been trying like mad to get FreeBSD boxes to replace the NT ones. The biggest beef here, aside from them being totally clueless and saying FreeBSD cannot outperform NT, is that things are just to hard to manage. For instance DNS. If they have around 100 different domains, there are no easy GUI tools that for example allow you to make a change on one domain and clone it to the rest. Like chaning the primary and secondary name servers. You have no tool you can just click "Make change for all domains?" etc.. I don't think we are lacking in power, performance, or networking. What we lack is the complete idiot tools to use them. I used to think that it was not that hard for the average person to run a FreeBSD network because once you configure things they run forever. But since starting work here, people HAVE to be spoonfed with the easiest GUI tools. If we had those I believe we would be right up there with MS. Build it and they will come, or so they say. At least thats my recent revelation on why people are choosing NT over unix. It is soooo easy, simple, and it has 1000's of features on every tool and app. Thats my .02 anyway Chris -- "Join Team-FreeBSD on cracking RC5-64! grab you client now and HELP OUT! http://www.distributed.net/cgi/select.cgi" ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.8 is available now! | Phone: 402-573-9124 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza #14, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 08:03:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06305 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06274 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15207; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:03:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:03:32 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Daniel C. Sobral" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-Reply-To: <36B96D0E.10227934@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > Anyway, we need more topics like this that bring the women out of hiding :-) > > Well, so far, on all freebsd lists I subscribe to, -advocacy seems > to be the one with the highest ratio of non-completely-lurking women > around... I wonder why... (well, aside from the nasty flame fests > that sometimes grace lists like -current) > > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com I tend to lurk so much primarily because I've had enough extremely unpleasant experiences regarding technical material in other forums (IRC for example) to make me very leary of exposing myself to such behavior again. The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ FreeBSD : The last Windows upgrade you'll ever need. [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 15:59:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15246 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15238 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA24031; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA12474; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:58:13 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA27576; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:58:09 -0700 Message-ID: <36BA340E.BFE4E9B5@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:58:06 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia CC: "Daniel C. Sobral" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, we need more topics like this that bring the women out of hiding :-) > > > > Well, so far, on all freebsd lists I subscribe to, -advocacy seems > > to be the one with the highest ratio of non-completely-lurking women > > around... I wonder why... (well, aside from the nasty flame fests > > that sometimes grace lists like -current) We try to be a bit more civilized here, though I for one can get a bit snippy when somebody starts throwing their weight around. That just doesn't cut it here, there's no need for childish antics. > I tend to lurk so much primarily because I've had enough extremely > unpleasant experiences regarding technical material in other forums (IRC for > example) to make me very leary of exposing myself to such behavior again. Ugh, IRC. I gave that up about 4 months after it started; it became painfully aware that it was just an extension of the Compu$serve "cb channels," with about the same level of maturity. And this was in 1994 -- I don't even want to imagine how much worse it is now. ;^) > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's > something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. You need an attitude adjustment - who's to say the opinion of the idiot at the other end of the socket connection has any validity AT ALL, let alone more validity than yours? Just when you thought it was safe to go back on the net -- FreeBSD-advocacy unleashes the "Licia-saurus!" ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 16:08:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18324 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:08:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sss00205.schwab.com (sss00205.schwab.com [162.93.15.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18318 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Laura.Hudson@Schwab.COM) Received: (from root@localhost) by fire sf id TAA07642 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from s0001asf.schwab.com(162.93.32.201) by sss00205 via smap (V2.1/2.1+anti-relay+anti-spam) id xma007615; Thu, 4 Feb 99 19:04:52 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by ihop sf id SAA29464 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: ( Schwab Email ) by copymail sf with ESMTP id SAA29457 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by N2101PMX.nt.schwab.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:05:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Hudson, Laura" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:05:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Laura, > > On 03-Feb-99 Hudson, Laura wrote: > > > If we really want to succeed, we need to get a larger user > base, but we > > have to be prepared to help newbies. > > OK, but do ye mean this in the context of online help or > physical help (as > in books and such)? > > Because online help is emerging faster and faster nowadays. > > Just take a peek at > > www.freebsdrocks.com > www.freebsdmall.com (the support stuff) > www.freebsdzine.org > undernet.freebsdzine.org > www.freebsddiary.com > www.daemonnews.org We need to do more than this. Our online presense is growing, but our physical presense needs to make itself known. We must have FreeBSD sold anywhere you can go out and buy Linux... We need to show up at linux user groups. We need to show up at NT user groups. We need to write books for the average window user so they can run FreeBSD, too. Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" -Laura To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 16:46:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22986 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22980 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11953; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:19 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Hudson, Laura" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990204164619.H253@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Hudson, Laura on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > > Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What did you do to break my computer? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Madness takes its toll. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Please have exact change. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 16:51:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23370 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sss00205.schwab.com (sss00205.schwab.com [162.93.15.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23363 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Laura.Hudson@Schwab.COM) Received: (from root@localhost) by fire sf id TAA12903 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from s0001asf.schwab.com(162.93.32.201) by sss00205 via smap (V2.1/2.1+anti-relay+anti-spam) id xma012887; Thu, 4 Feb 99 19:47:24 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by ihop sf id TAA12561 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: ( Schwab Email ) by copymail sf with ESMTP id TAA12555 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by N1102SMX.nt.schwab.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:48:19 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Hudson, Laura" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:47:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > did you do to break my computer? /me runs in the other direction very very fast To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 16:56:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24160 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24150 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id TAA83093; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:54:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990204194926.03a13f10@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:50:12 -0500 To: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:47 PM 2/4/99 , Hudson, Laura wrote: > > >> Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare >> UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What >> did you do to break my computer? > >/me runs in the other direction very very fast > I was thinking of saying "Sure, email my work account about it, Trashcan@Onenetwork.orland.me.us".. Ironically it has a pointer to /dev/null.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 18:28:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07286 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07280 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id SAA25167; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id SAA25453; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:28:43 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id TAA28775; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:28:42 -0700 Message-ID: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:28:42 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hudson, Laura" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Hudson, Laura" wrote: > > Greg Sutter wittily chirped: > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > did you do to break my computer? > > /me runs in the other direction very very fast I'd offer to hold him down while you kick him a few times, but then I'd never get next month's Daemons Advocate column formatted. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 19:16:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14238 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14219 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:16:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14862; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:16:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:16:00 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990204191559.K253@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:28:42PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:28:42PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > "Hudson, Laura" wrote: > > > > Greg Sutter wittily chirped: > > > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > > did you do to break my computer? > > > > /me runs in the other direction very very fast > > I'd offer to hold him down while you kick him a few times, but then I'd > never get next month's Daemons Advocate column formatted. ;^) You're really itching to have your next article piped through 'tac' before publication, aren't you. >:) (Hey, I could always enchefferize it instead... Bork bork bork!) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... mailto:gsutter@pobox.com and promptly disappeared. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 20:38:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23598 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23584 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12216; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:37:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36BA7587.B32B4920@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:37:27 -0700 From: Wes =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peters=D5?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=40d=EB?= Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com> <19990204191559.K253@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:28:42PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > "Hudson, Laura" wrote: > > > > > > Greg Sutter wittily chirped: > > > > > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > > > did you do to break my computer? > > > > > > /me runs in the other direction very very fast > > > > I'd offer to hold him down while you kick him a few times, but then I'd > > never get next month's Daemons Advocate column formatted. ;^) > > You're really itching to have your next article piped through 'tac' > before publication, aren't you. >:) > > (Hey, I could always enchefferize it instead... Bork bork bork!) Jivespeak was my favorite. We setup a machine to add jivespeak into the man command randomly on one machine; it was hilarious to watch a user read something like: SH(1) SH(1) NAME sh - command interpreter (shell) SYNOPSIS sh [-/+abCEefIimnpsuVvx] [-/+o longname] [-c string] [arg ...] DESCRIPTION Sh be de damn standard command interpreter fo' de damn system. Sheeit. De damn current version... ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 4 22:21:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02660 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:21:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02654 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.66]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA5B1A; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:29:57 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Hudson, Laura" Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Feb-99 Hudson, Laura wrote: > We need to do more than this. Our online presense is growing, but our > physical presense needs to make itself known. We must have FreeBSD sold > anywhere you can go out and buy Linux... Trust me, we are, FreeBSD travels faster by word of mouth here in the Netherlands for now... I have already showed most co-workers what FreeBSD is for a stable system after our firewalls had their 295 days of uptime and they _know_ what traffic they had to manage. > We need to show up at linux user groups. > > We need to show up at NT user groups. > > We need to write books for the average window user so they can run > FreeBSD, too. Yeah, well, I slightly wondering about that. I got this book when I was still in uni, called: Unix, the Standard Operating System. It explained all about Unix and the most basic commands. Is this the kind of book ye want, or are ye more focused on a FreeBSD(Unix) for Windows dummies? > Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" *G* But define easier for the average newbie? There is already a GUI admin program in development which had potential last time I checked it out. Also I was talking with Jordan about the desktops for install/sysinstall to allow for easy X/desktop set-up. But then we hit a major issue, I use GUI because I prefer to see consoles (xterms) in a more ordered fashion to enhance my command line work. How will newbies with all these GUI admin tools handle themselves? The strength of Unix still lies in CLI, which can be extended with GUI. Then again, I might be worrying too much, I am just basing this on some older Linux admin stuff I have seen which automatically filled in some defaults for options even when one only changed a single parameter. I do say that having a GUI work environment lowers the doorstep, but only for a few secs, because the user is still confronted with CLI's ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 01:33:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21496 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21459 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA05163; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:33:21 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990205203316.19436@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:33:16 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:29:57AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:29:57AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > But then we hit a major issue, I use GUI because I prefer to see consoles > (xterms) in a more ordered fashion to enhance my command line work. How > will newbies with all these GUI admin tools handle themselves? They might come to assume that they can do everything by GUI and resent any commandline work. Ouch. > The strength of Unix still lies in CLI, which can be extended with > GUI. Then again, I might be worrying too much, I am just basing this > on some older Linux admin stuff I have seen which automatically > filled in some defaults for options even when one only changed a > single parameter. > > I do say that having a GUI work environment lowers the doorstep, but only > for a few secs, because the user is still confronted with CLI's ;) ...because it only makes it easy for simple jobs that don't require much knowledge or understanding before decisions can be made. We're talking about people who are used to an entirely different way of working with computers. Their idea is that the computer offers all available options, and they choose what they want. We're used to being offered nothing (overtly) and issuing commands based on our repertoire and the job's requirements. Take care not to underestimate the amount of difference that exists here. No matter how well they are provided with a seemingly familiar environment, the best we can hope for is to delay their realisation that it doesn't really work that way here. While preparing an article for this month's Daemon News (http://www.daemonnews.org) I played with Info-ZIP on various platforms. Although the recent Macintosh port was only available as a wobbly beta way back then (1.01 is out now), I was impressed with the way these conflicting needs (mindless GUI for everyday ease, and commandline for versatility) had been accommodated. All the basics could be done with menus and buttons, or by dropping a zip file on the program's icon as Mac people are used to doing. But for better control for specific needs one could click something to bring up a little commandline (almost never available on Macs!) and type in much the same as the unix commands for using zip and unzip. (Of course the man page could be brought up from the same dialog box or menu system). To the author this might have appeared as a compromise but I saw it as a great solution all round. If you happen to be near a Macintosh and curious, check it out and see if you agree. http://www.sitec.de/maczip/ If we do want to cater to GUI-addicted new unix users (and that's a big if), here's someone who has had to work through many of the same issues already and been open minded enough to find a workable solution. In doing so he demonstrates simultaneously the inadequacy of GUI for many everyday unix tools, and also its potential when called upon to do only what GUI does well. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 02:46:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28611 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28594 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id TAA11127; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:46:32 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36BAC43C.9FDE015B@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:13:16 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <19990204164619.H253@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > > > > Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > > easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > > just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > did you do to break my computer? Actually, FreeBSD works fine with this card, but Microsoft OS inserts a bug in the card firmware, so that when it boots another OS, the card self destructs. Blame MS. ;-> -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com Well, as a computer geek, I have to believe in the binary universe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 06:51:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27430 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:51:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27425 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-036.thuntek.net [207.66.52.36]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA00723; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:50:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BAFB9F.A1DE9658@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:09:35 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BA340E.BFE4E9B5@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Licia wrote: > >[snip] > > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's > > something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. > > You need an attitude adjustment - who's to say the opinion of the idiot > at the other end of the socket connection has any validity AT ALL, let > alone more validity than yours? > I strongly second this. Any Internet mailing list ends up with some bozos on it. There have even been some instances that I can remember where perfectly intelligent -core members OD'd on pizza and caffeine and made outrageous statements they were too proud to retract. Please share your thoughts, Licia. We poor homely geeks need some connectionist inspiration from your female brains. Sue Blake adds volumes to our perspective, and there have been other ladies whose contributions I value. I hope you will stand up for yourself and join in. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 06:58:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27949 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:58:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27929 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-036.thuntek.net [207.66.52.36]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA01365; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:57:32 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BB006E.2DD30630@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:30:06 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com> <19990204191559.K253@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > (Hey, I could always enchefferize it instead... Bork bork bork!) > All of this polysyllabic technical talk is really starting to flatten my headbones... ;-D -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 07:06:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28900 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28887 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-036.thuntek.net [207.66.52.36]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA01437; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:57:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BB0C09.F398B49C@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:19:37 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: "Hudson, Laura" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 05-Feb-99 Hudson, Laura wrote: > > > We need to do more than this. Our online presense is growing, but our > > physical presense needs to make itself known. We must have FreeBSD sold > > anywhere you can go out and buy Linux... > > Trust me, we are, FreeBSD travels faster by word of mouth here in the > Netherlands for now... I have already showed most co-workers what FreeBSD > is for a stable system after our firewalls had their 295 days of uptime and > they _know_ what traffic they had to manage. > > > We need to show up at linux user groups. > > > > We need to show up at NT user groups. > > > > We need to write books for the average window user so they can run > > FreeBSD, too. > > Yeah, well, I slightly wondering about that. I got this book when I was > still in uni, called: Unix, the Standard Operating System. It explained all > about Unix and the most basic commands. Is this the kind of book ye want, > or are ye more focused on a FreeBSD(Unix) for Windows dummies? > > > Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > > easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > > just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > *G* > > But define easier for the average newbie? There is already a GUI admin > program in development which had potential last time I checked it out. > > Also I was talking with Jordan about the desktops for install/sysinstall to > allow for easy X/desktop set-up. > > But then we hit a major issue, I use GUI because I prefer to see consoles > (xterms) in a more ordered fashion to enhance my command line work. How > will newbies with all these GUI admin tools handle themselves? The strength > of Unix still lies in CLI, which can be extended with GUI. > Then again, I might be worrying too much, I am just basing this on some > older Linux admin stuff I have seen which automatically filled in some > defaults for options even when one only changed a single parameter. > > I do say that having a GUI work environment lowers the doorstep, but only > for a few secs, because the user is still confronted with CLI's ;) > I agree. I think it is much better to write a book that excites the average Joe / Josie about using the command line to get things done. UNIX' strength lies in piping existing commands together, and commands start as text, work with text, and end up as text (well, with some minor GUI side-effects sometimes). No matter how good you get with dynamic drop-down menus and icons and such, pretty soon it ends up as more work than just typing the silly command. I'm doing some in-depth reading of ORA's BASH book, and I'm spending a lot of time in my writing to lead the newbie by the hand into simple shell programming and cron activation. I'd like to see more work on pkg_info, to make it more useful for those of us who have forgotten which little boxes we checked on install. That plus a web-browser interface to the source tree and man pages, like Forrest Cavalier's Reuse RKT site, will do wonders. (http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse). The problem with UNIX has always been that if you don't know what you're looking for, you'll never find it. The weight of history says that we'll never get away from oddball names like awk and grep and yacc, so what we need to do is to find a way to lead the user to the correct command when he needs it. One final note that we need to stress, to amplify your point. Windows is designed to give a user immediate gratification. It is damn near worthless for any other kind of programming, but it excels at interactivity. BSD, on the other hand, is designed to remember to do things for you on a regular basis. It is a task server, not a pushbutton calculator. It happens to also work well as a pushbutton calculator, but it will never give you 47 different ways to switch between windows. It WILL give you 47 different ways to program a task, though! We need to educate users to appreciate what BSD gives them as valuable in its own right, not to get dragged down in discussions of how to be a better Windows than Windows. Anybody who's ever administered a large NT network knows that Windows is a stupid choice for a server. We need to position ourselves to be ready when CEBus (or whichever home control bus wins out) actually arrives, so that we can be the home server of choice, besides being the business server of choice. THAT's our market wedge. We need to convince people that they need a home server, and if they want to connect to it from a Windows box that's their choice. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 07:31:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01640 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01635 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18841; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:31:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:31:52 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Wes Peters cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <36BA340E.BFE4E9B5@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Licia wrote: > > I tend to lurk so much primarily because I've had enough extremely > > unpleasant experiences regarding technical material in other forums (IRC for > > example) to make me very leary of exposing myself to such behavior again. > > Ugh, IRC. I gave that up about 4 months after it started; it became > painfully aware that it was just an extension of the Compu$serve "cb > channels," with about the same level of maturity. And this was in > 1994 -- I don't even want to imagine how much worse it is now. ;^) > I've left off and on but usually returned in the hopes that I could find a group of intelligent, mature people to chat with. I've since given up hope and discontinued my use of IRC and have gone so far as to remove all my IRC software. I now spend the majority of my online time on my own telnet BBS, where I can be assured that spam, trolls, etc, simply will not be accepted. :) > > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's > > something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. > > You need an attitude adjustment - who's to say the opinion of the idiot > at the other end of the socket connection has any validity AT ALL, let > alone more validity than yours? > Oh, that's not how I feel at all. I've been programming since I was 10 years old (that's 18 years for those who are counting :) ) and I'm fairly confident about my skills and I take the time to reason out my opinions and ideas. I tend to lurk to avoid abuse. If I am confident that something I'm considering saying will not result in more abuse than I feel the issue is worth, I post. If not, I don't. I post as much as I do on advocacy, simply because I feel strongly about what needs to be done in these areas, and I've discovered that I quite enjoy the work involved. (for those who are counting, I have given away my entire original order of 1,250 FreeBSD pens and re-ordered! :) ) I have noticed that the lists are much less prone to that type of behavior than IRC, but old habits die hard, and it will be a while I am sure before I am completely comfortable with things. Additionally, I am a bit more active on the FreeBSD Applications Developer mailing list. If someone posts on there, I most likely -will- reply to them, as applications are currently my main area of interest. [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 09:51:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19052 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19027 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:50:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@zaphod.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by zaphod.softweyr.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id KAA05587; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:50:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes) Message-ID: <19990205105035.A5525@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:50:35 -0700 From: Wes Peters To: Licia Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <36BA340E.BFE4E9B5@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Licia on Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 09:31:52AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 09:31:52AM -0600, Licia wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > Licia wrote: > > > I tend to lurk so much primarily because I've had enough extremely > > > unpleasant experiences regarding technical material in other forums (IRC for > > > example) to make me very leary of exposing myself to such behavior again. > > > > Ugh, IRC. I gave that up about 4 months after it started; it became > > painfully aware that it was just an extension of the Compu$serve "cb > > channels," with about the same level of maturity. And this was in > > 1994 -- I don't even want to imagine how much worse it is now. ;^) > > I've left off and on but usually returned in the hopes that I could find a > group of intelligent, mature people to chat with. I've since given up hope > and discontinued my use of IRC and have gone so far as to remove all my IRC > software. > > I now spend the majority of my online time on my own telnet BBS, where I can > be assured that spam, trolls, etc, simply will not be accepted. :) > > > > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's > > > something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. > > > > You need an attitude adjustment - who's to say the opinion of the idiot > > at the other end of the socket connection has any validity AT ALL, let > > alone more validity than yours? > > Oh, that's not how I feel at all. I've been programming since I was 10 years > old (that's 18 years for those who are counting :) ) and I'm fairly confident That's nearly as many as me, but I didn't start quite so young. Why, when I was a kid, computers were as big as a house... ;^) (Actually the PDP-11 was just coming out when I was 10.) > about my skills and I take the time to reason out my opinions and ideas. I > tend to lurk to avoid abuse. I wondered about that, since your contributions to -advocacy have always seemed confident, and you haven't seemed to shy away from differences in opinion. I agree with Don Wilde, all opinions are welcomed as long as stated politely, and opinions will necessarily differ. If they didn't, we'd never accomplish anything here. > If I am confident that something I'm considering saying will not result in > more abuse than I feel the issue is worth, I post. If not, I don't. I post > as much as I do on advocacy, simply because I feel strongly about what needs > to be done in these areas, and I've discovered that I quite enjoy the work > involved. Great. Now write some articles somewhere. You're obviously a good writer, and FreeBSD needs your help. Can you write for Daemon News? An occasional article would be great, a regular column (or contributing to one of our existing columns) would be even better. > (for those who are counting, I have given away my entire original order of > 1,250 FreeBSD pens and re-ordered! :) ) What do I have to do to get one? Order my own and give away the rest? Those would be great for user group meetings, wouldn't they? > I have noticed that the lists are much less prone to that type of behavior > than IRC, but old habits die hard, and it will be a while I am sure before I > am completely comfortable with things. Additionally, I am a bit more active > on the FreeBSD Applications Developer mailing list. If someone posts on > there, I most likely -will- reply to them, as applications are currently my > main area of interest. That'd make a nice column for Daemon News. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:27:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24884 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from acheron.middleboro.ma.us (acheron.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.162.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24863 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:27:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us) Received: (from mason@localhost) by acheron.middleboro.ma.us (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA21356; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:33:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:33:26 -0500 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: Don Wilde Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990205143326.D18787@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> References: <36BA575A.B4320D21@softweyr.com> <19990204191559.K253@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BB006E.2DD30630@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36BB006E.2DD30630@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:30:06AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:30:06AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > All of this polysyllabic technical talk is really starting to flatten my > headbones... ;-D Ooh... That's a really bizarre image. (A bizarre moving image, at that. Sort of a morph...) -- Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://acheron.ne.mediaone.net (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:30:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25465 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25420 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:29:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10273; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:29:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:29:08 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > I just wonder Don, if the thoughts of females on matters IT differ so much > from a male's perspective? The ladies amongst us care to answer? > I don't speak for all women and I don't understand men, but I would hazard that the answer for me, seems to be 'yes'. At least, my thoughts seem to differ :) I get accused of "re inventing the wheel" a lot, because of my interest in writing certain pieces of software, and accused of "wasting my time" for being interested in reviving or supporting certain concepts (my spam filter, BBS projects, c version of adduser, etc). From my point of view it's simply a way to understand things better, implement ideas I have on a certain subject, fill my own needs, or simply my own "gee, that kind of software is neat!" factor, or even just to provide an implementation of something that I think someone, somewhere might have a use for. To most of the men I've mentioned a lot of my various projects to, I'm wasting my time. I've had them tell me so explicitly. I've had them tell me things such as "freebsd is not a desktop OS", "my point is that the freebsd crowd that currently exists doesnt are about desktop apps" and worse. My point of view however, being that (at least for people like me) FreeBSD is an ideal desktop, lacking only an active applications developer community (which I'm going to try to improve :) ) My, I'm babbling and getting too far off topic. I'll stop now. > I myself know a few ladies who are active in the IT (mostly HTML) and am > happily surprised when they manage to kick my arse or try to (in a friendly > way offcourse). It makes for a nice change in a previously male dominated > area... And do I need to even mention it? Female coders rock the most ;) > Being a female coder, I have to disagree, I don't rock much :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:30:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25428 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10244; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:09:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:09:40 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Wes Peters cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <19990205105035.A5525@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 09:31:52AM -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > Oh, that's not how I feel at all. I've been programming since I was 10 > > years old (that's 18 years for those who are counting :) ) and I'm fairly > > confident about my skills and I take the time to reason out my opinions > > and ideas. I tend to lurk to avoid abuse. > > I wondered about that, since your contributions to -advocacy have always > seemed confident, and you haven't seemed to shy away from differences in > opinion. I agree with Don Wilde, all opinions are welcomed as long as > stated politely, and opinions will necessarily differ. If they didn't, > we'd never accomplish anything here. > I don't mind differing opinions, I don't mind disagreement, debate, and even the occasional argument at all. Abuse however, tends to cause me to simply leave. :) > > If I am confident that something I'm considering saying will not result in > > more abuse than I feel the issue is worth, I post. If not, I don't. I post > > as much as I do on advocacy, simply because I feel strongly about what needs > > to be done in these areas, and I've discovered that I quite enjoy the work > > involved. > > Great. Now write some articles somewhere. You're obviously a good writer, > and FreeBSD needs your help. Can you write for Daemon News? An occasional > article would be great, a regular column (or contributing to one of our > existing columns) would be even better. > I do write occasional articles, and post them on my home page at the moment. In the future, when I finish my advocacy/support web site, I will include my own writing in the archives. In the mean time, I am quite open to requests that are within my range of interests, or even to allowing people to reuse material posted on my home page. (except for the poetry, I prefer that not be redistributed. :) ) > > (for those who are counting, I have given away my entire original order of > > 1,250 FreeBSD pens and re-ordered! :) ) > > What do I have to do to get one? Order my own and give away the rest? > Those would be great for user group meetings, wouldn't they? > (smiles) at the moment, simply email me your postal address, along with how many pens you want (up to 5) and I will send them off when I get a chance. :) > > I have noticed that the lists are much less prone to that type of behavior > > than IRC, but old habits die hard, and it will be a while I am sure before I > > am completely comfortable with things. Additionally, I am a bit more active > > on the FreeBSD Applications Developer mailing list. If someone posts on > > there, I most likely -will- reply to them, as applications are currently my > > main area of interest. > > That'd make a nice column for Daemon News. ;^) > The FAD mailing list? I would wait until it gets more traffic. Currently there are only 12 subscribers, and volume is very low. So far most messages are reply-less :/ [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:32:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25871 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sss00205.schwab.com (sss00205.schwab.com [162.93.15.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25857 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Laura.Hudson@Schwab.COM) Received: (from root@localhost) by fire sf id PAA03741 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from s0001asf.schwab.com(162.93.32.201) by sss00205 via smap (V2.1/2.1+anti-relay+anti-spam) id xma003701; Fri, 5 Feb 99 15:28:29 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by ihop sf id PAA01228 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: ( Schwab Email ) by copymail sf with ESMTP id PAA01217 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by N2101PMX.nt.schwab.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:29:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Hudson, Laura" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Is there a reseller program? Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:29:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > All of this polysyllabic technical talk is really starting > to flatten my > > headbones... ;-D > > Ooh... That's a really bizarre image. (A bizarre moving > image, at that. Sort > of a morph...) You should lay off the happy shrooms, buddy -Laura To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:48:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28401 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28381 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-123.thuntek.net [207.66.52.123]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA05366 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:47:49 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BB6708.D8210684@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:47:52 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ladies in FreeBSD (was: IS there a reseller program) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > [snip] > I just wonder Don, if the thoughts of females on matters IT differ so much > from a male's perspective? The ladies amongst us care to answer? > > I myself know a few ladies who are active in the IT (mostly HTML) and am > happily surprised when they manage to kick my arse or try to (in a friendly > way offcourse). It makes for a nice change in a previously male dominated > area... And do I need to even mention it? Female coders rock the most ;) > First take on this is that it's precisely because it's a male-dominated area that we want to encourage intelligent women to join us. Dusting off my Sociology degree, I can also say that it's well documented that while men seem to always drive towards the 'point' or the 'bottom line', women tend to consider many variables in any situation. I say that this implies that there are many contributions they can make (Witness Nicole Harrington's work with that wonderfully layered ISP network that she shared with us a couple of months ago); whether they DO make them depends on whether they're turned off by classless conduct. I know a lot of geeks who are superb programmers but who smell like they've never learned to change their own diapers. Most women I know won't put up with that (either verbal or physical), but (male) bosses don't care as long as the code is good. This attitude needs to change, but is not likely to. Our society is so male-dominated that the short-term bottom line is all that matters. Programming has been a very linear, one-track development process until recently. With our multitasking servers and increasing use of parallel paradigms and multi-level distributed architectures, the multi-dimensionality of the female brain will become more valuable. In addition, the social aspects of computing are becoming more important as the world networks. Again, this is a woman's forte. I hope we see more women getting in on the early stages of open source development projects so that their cooperative skills have more of an impact on the interactive structures that develop. Besides, I'm a single geek. It's nice to know there are intelligent ladies out there that I can interact with on a peer-to-peer level. 8-D -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 12:53:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29430 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29418 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-117.thuntek.net [207.66.52.117]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA23759 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:31:06 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BB550C.7A846A6A@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:31:08 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ladies in FreeBSD (was:Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > [snip] > I just wonder Don, if the thoughts of females on matters IT differ so much > from a male's perspective? The ladies amongst us care to answer? > > I myself know a few ladies who are active in the IT (mostly HTML) and am > happily surprised when they manage to kick my arse or try to (in a friendly > way offcourse). It makes for a nice change in a previously male dominated > area... And do I need to even mention it? Female coders rock the most ;) > First take on this is that it's precisely because it's a male-dominated area that we want to encourage intelligent women to join us. Dusting off my Sociology degree, I can also say that it's well documented that while men seem to always drive towards the 'point' or the 'bottom line', women tend to consider many variables in any situation. I say that this implies that there are many contributions they can make (Witness Nicole Harrington's work with that wonderfully layered ISP network that she shared with us a couple of months ago); whether they DO make them depends on whether they're turned off by classless conduct. I know a lot of geeks who are superb programmers but who smell like they've never learned to change their own diapers. Most women I know won't put up with that (either verbal or physical), but (male) bosses don't care as long as the code is good. This attitude needs to change, but is not likely to. Our society is so male-dominated that the short-term bottom line is all that matters. Programming has been a very linear, one-track development process until recently. With our multitasking servers and increasing use of parallel paradigms and multi-level distributed architectures, the multi-dimensionality of the female brain will become more valuable. In addition, the social aspects of computing are becoming more important as the world networks. Again, this is a woman's forte. I hope we see more women getting in on the early stages of open source development projects so that their cooperative skills have more of an impact on the interactive structures that develop. Besides, I'm a single geek. It's nice to know there are intelligent ladies out there that I can interact with on a peer-to-peer level. 8-D -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 15:17:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18120 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:17:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18110 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0D2932EE1A; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:17:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990204112255.008077d0@199.107.2.1> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Michael Doyle Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Don Wilde Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA18115 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Michael Doyle wrote: > At 14:53 03/02/99 -0800, Don Wilde wrote: >>Josef Grosch wrote: >>[snip] >>> whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old >>> problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the > freaking >>> man pages. In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be >>> carrying the whole load for us. >>> > [snip again] >> If that's the market, we're almost there. We need specific documentation >> with examples of SAMBA, Apache, fwtk, ppp, CVSup and Sendmail setup, a >> front-end manual with more pictures to confuse da users, and a >> documented list of applicable O'Reilly, P-H and A-W books. Targeting the >> (large and small) business server market would be a much better first >> step, playing to our strengths. > > As a *user* who uses FreeBSD for just this type of back end server stuff, > you're right on the ball. Other pointers to include in the manual would be > Squid (for Web Proxy) or either/both of the Firewall solutions (for a full > internet gateway). > > I like the sound of this book idea - unfortunately I don't feel I'm enough > of an expert to contribute - I'm still at the stage of finding out how to > do these things myself. > > Mike Yes an advanced "how to" book. Lets face it, many of us are in jobs where the boss doesn't care if you know everything about something, they just want it working. I myself would love to see more books that are directly "how to" with clear cut and working examples. I grew up in the age of Lego's and I really like it when books and man pages have examples to go by. Nicole > > <>< ============================================================ ><> > Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie > Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie > Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ > Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 > > *** NOTE: our domain name HAS changed. If you are still using the old > "co-operation-north.ie" domain for web site or email addresses, please > update it. > ********************************************************************* > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 15:32:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19603 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19588 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:32:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4A5B2EE1A; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Licia Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Daniel C.Sobral" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA19591 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Licia wrote: > On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >> Sue Blake wrote: >> > >> > Anyway, we need more topics like this that bring the women out of hiding >> > :-) >> >> Well, so far, on all freebsd lists I subscribe to, -advocacy seems >> to be the one with the highest ratio of non-completely-lurking women >> around... I wonder why... (well, aside from the nasty flame fests >> that sometimes grace lists like -current) >> >> -- >> Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) >> dcs@newsguy.com > > I tend to lurk so much primarily because I've had enough extremely > unpleasant experiences regarding technical material in other forums (IRC for > example) to make me very leary of exposing myself to such behavior again. > > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, unless it's > something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. > Yes, there is much truth to that. I even had a brief stint at an ISP who had a "thing" about a woman having root. I have to say however that on the FreeBSD lists I have never had a problem. Probobly not suprising to note that you will find more "child like" users in Linux groups and lists than you ever will here. I think the user comunity for the two is completly different. Just remember that sometimes all of us do/say silly things and will earn ourselves a dunce sombrero for the day in front of a few thousand people. Nicole > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > [ FreeBSD : The last Windows upgrade you'll ever need. > [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 15:43:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20910 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:43:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20897 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C77552EE1A; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:43:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990204164619.H253@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:43:24 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Hudson@xwin.nmhtech.com, Laura Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA20902 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: >> >> Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD >> easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I >> just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > did you do to break my computer? > *LOL* I invite everyone here to join Josef Grosch and myself on a few installa-thons for some similiar experiences. I would love to have a few programmers there to experience the true needs of the "comman people" who want to get rid of MS but don't want another hobby. I have to explain that FreeBSD is great, but there *IS* a learning curve. But lets face it, do we really want to run our servers on something for the desktop? If we really want that market, we need a FreeBSD-desktop version. IMHO. BTW: on a side note. At the last installa-thon the Linux group was advertised, but not there. After a dozen of so people asked my girlfriend where the Linux people were, she told one person that "their server crashed so they could'nt make it, would you like to try FreeBSD instead?" Looking like a cat stunned in oncomming headlights they turned around and left. Nicole > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter Madness takes its toll. > mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Please have exact change. > http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 17:33:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07138 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07123 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 108wbz-0001yI-00; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:32:44 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id BAA00489; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:32:12 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14392; Sat, 6 Feb 99 01:32:09 GMT Message-Id: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 01:19:06 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Err, maybe I've totally lost the plot here but can I ask a simple question? Since when the hell did gender come into the discussions in these mailing lists? I don't know about anyone else, but I never consider the gender of person who posts a message, or to whom I reply. I can't recall any sexist remarks/threads appearing here and I'm damn sure that they wouldn't be tolerated. The subject of these lists is FreeBSD, does gender, race, colour, or creed enter in to it? I think not. > The FAD mailing list? I would wait until it gets more traffic. Currently > there are only 12 subscribers, and volume is very low. So far most messages > are reply-less :/ Well, I think it's a great idea, I've subscribed but I can't promise to make any worthwhile contribution for a time yet. I've subscribed in the hope that I can learn from others but if I feel able to contribute then I'll chip in. -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 18:28:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12139 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:28:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12131 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:28:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.47]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA20AC; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:48:12 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36BAFB9F.A1DE9658@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:56:57 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Don Wilde Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Licia , Wes Peters Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Feb-99 Don Wilde wrote: > Wes Peters wrote: >> Licia wrote: >> >[snip] >> > The result is I tend not to make comments in the technical lists, >> > unless it's something I feel fairly sure I will not be maltreated over. >> >> You need an attitude adjustment - who's to say the opinion of the idiot >> at the other end of the socket connection has any validity AT ALL, let >> alone more validity than yours? > > I strongly second this. Any Internet mailing list ends up with some > bozos on it. There have even been some instances that I can remember > where perfectly intelligent -core members OD'd on pizza and caffeine and > made outrageous statements they were too proud to retract. I mean, we got stuck with Terry ;) Pride is the first thing that needs to be swallowed however... > Please share your thoughts, Licia. We poor homely geeks need some > connectionist inspiration from your female brains. Sue Blake adds > volumes to our perspective, and there have been other ladies whose > contributions I value. I hope you will stand up for yourself and join > in. Sharing thoughts goes for anyone who can keep up a decent conversations and arguments to back the thought. So far I haven't been disappointed by for example Licia, Laura or Sue =) I just wonder Don, if the thoughts of females on matters IT differ so much from a male's perspective? The ladies amongst us care to answer? I myself know a few ladies who are active in the IT (mostly HTML) and am happily surprised when they manage to kick my arse or try to (in a friendly way offcourse). It makes for a nice change in a previously male dominated area... And do I need to even mention it? Female coders rock the most ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 18:28:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12149 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:28:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12134 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.47]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA47D4; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:22:06 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990205203316.19436@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 20:30:52 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Feb-99 Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:29:57AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> But then we hit a major issue, I use GUI because I prefer to see >> consoles (xterms) in a more ordered fashion to enhance my command line >> work. How will newbies with all these GUI admin tools handle themselves? > > They might come to assume that they can do everything by GUI and resent > any commandline work. Ouch. Heh, not if we present a GUI with only two xterms ;) >> The strength of Unix still lies in CLI, which can be extended with >> GUI. Then again, I might be worrying too much, I am just basing this >> on some older Linux admin stuff I have seen which automatically >> filled in some defaults for options even when one only changed a >> single parameter. >> >> I do say that having a GUI work environment lowers the doorstep, but >> only for a few secs, because the user is still confronted with CLI's ;) > > ...because it only makes it easy for simple jobs that don't require > much knowledge or understanding before decisions can be made. Ahhh, that's why those NT boxes keep crashing over at work =P > If we do want to cater to GUI-addicted new unix users (and that's a big > if), here's someone who has had to work through many of the same issues > already and been open minded enough to find a workable solution. In > doing so he demonstrates simultaneously the inadequacy of GUI for many > everyday unix tools, and also its potential when called upon to do only > what GUI does well. Well afaics Unix will always remain primary CLI. As I stated I merely use X and the windowmanagers to have multiple xterms next to each other to heighten the use of IDE's and such. I don't think we want to obfuscate the real OS by using GUI's. IMHO they are meant to be a method to further enhance the total experience. When I came to FreeBSD from Windows 95 (having used Solaris, NT, Amiga, Mac before that) I just had to know things about my computer I knew, but not quite, if ye understand me. Trying to uncover everything that's inside is leading me on a way to knowledge that will serve me well in years to come. As far as the desktop goes, in my understanding it's merely what I proposed/said earlier, to ease entry into FreeBSD, but it will still make it necessary for the user to read. If ye have suggestion as to make it evident to the user that they need to be bothered to actually try to understand what the computer is trying to `say' through the programs, then I'm all ears. There is just one category of people we can never help: the lazy ones. We cannot lead someone by their hand all the time as much as telling them whenever we spot an e-mail that tends to look like number 4564 in category `how to use my zip with FreeBSD' to read the FAQ or handbook without making sure they really need to know that or something very directly associated. Man, I am rambling off again ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 20:27:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21639 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:27:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21633 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeays@statcan.ca) Received: from stcinet (stcinet.statcan.ca [142.206.128.146]) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.9.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14802 For ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA13815; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:27:03 -0500; sender jeays@statcan.ca Message-ID: <36BBC496.CF48F5B1@statcan.ca> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:27:02 -0500 From: Mike Jeays Organization: Statistics Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Installing packges Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since the subject came up recently, I would like to announce that I have a short TK script that makes it easy to do text scans on the list of packages on the CD-ROM, to install and deinstall them quickly, and to show which ones have already been installed. It is rather crude as it is one of my first attempts at writing anything in TK, but if the idea is useful I would be willing to improve it. It is at www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad161 - comments welcome. BSD license, should anyone care! -- Mike Jeays : System Development Division, Statistics Canada 14-O R.H. Coats Building, Holland Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0T6 Voice (613)-951-9929 FAX 951-0607 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 5 21:30:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25919 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:30:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25836 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:29:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@zaphod.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by zaphod.softweyr.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id WAA06231; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:28:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes) Message-ID: <19990205222817.I6050@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:28:17 -0700 From: Wes Peters To: Mark Ovens , Licia Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:19:06AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:19:06AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Err, maybe I've totally lost the plot here but can I ask a simple > question? Since when the hell did gender come into the discussions in > these mailing lists? > > I don't know about anyone else, but I never consider the gender of > person who posts a message, or to whom I reply. I can't recall any > sexist remarks/threads appearing here and I'm damn sure that they > wouldn't be tolerated. The subject of these lists is FreeBSD, does > gender, race, colour, or creed enter in to it? I think not. Overtly, no, but issues like race and gender always come up, it's a factor of human life. Race is less apparent than gender in many ways; often names boil down to simple categories of "vaguely european", "vaguely oriential", and "I have no idea." If, on the other hand, your name is Licia, Laura, or Sue, chances are pretty good that most males of european descent are immediately going to leap to the conclusion the poster is female. Depending on who the reader is, this will cause them to pay more or less attention to the author, be more or less critical of their opinions, and more or less patient with them. All of these also apply to those of a different culture. I, in general, am more interested, less critical, and more patient, but hey, that's just me. I'm also less likely to assume a woman is an idiot, I'd rather assume she's just an expert at something else. I know this makes me incredibly sexist, but in my experience there ARE far more male jerks, morons, and madmen than female. ;^) I also try to cultivate helping relationships with people of different cultures. I've met people over the net in Africa, Australia, and England whom I now consider good friends, simply by answering (or occasionally asking) a few questions. Who knows, I may someday get the chance to share my home, or perhaps even theirs, simply for the price of helping somebody with PPP, or DNS, or something else that is relatively trivial for me. > > The FAD mailing list? I would wait until it gets more traffic. Currently > > there are only 12 subscribers, and volume is very low. So far most messages > > are reply-less :/ > > Well, I think it's a great idea, I've subscribed but I can't promise to > make any worthwhile contribution for a time yet. I've subscribed in the > hope that I can learn from others but if I feel able to contribute then > I'll chip in. I'd like to join, being one of those odd people who have actually developed applications on FreeBSD, but I can't keep up with my current email load. Perhaps a passionate plea for more application developers would make a good column for Daemon News? It's entirely possible that there are many other potential developers and they just don't know about your list yet. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 00:36:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10936 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:36:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10931 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.129]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAABCD; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:36:09 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:44:59 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Nicole Harrington Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Cc: Laura , Hudson@xwin.nmhtech.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Gregory Sutter Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Feb-99 Nicole Harrington wrote: > I have to explain that FreeBSD is great, but there *IS* a learning > curve. But lets face it, do we really want to run our servers on > something for the desktop? If we really want that market, we need a > FreeBSD-desktop version. IMHO. The correct term would not be another version, but simply modularity =) And FWIW, we currently deploy three FreeBSD boxen as Desktops, five as servers, and one still undefined... Offcourse the kernel and software configuration differs... > BTW: on a side note. > At the last installa-thon the Linux group was advertised, but not there. > After a dozen of so people asked my girlfriend where the Linux people > were, she told one person that "their server crashed so they could'nt > make it, would you like to try FreeBSD instead?" Looking like a cat > stunned in oncomming headlights they turned around and left. Whoahaha! That was cruel, I love it =) But to address something one can see from the details you provide, there is also a large number of people who want Linux for it being Linux and the whole craze around. That is something we don't aspire to, I hope, for most people on the lists here care to use FreeBSD because of their experience with other OS's and see FreeBSD being better on most, if not all, fronts. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 04:53:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08167 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08162 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:53:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-056.thuntek.net [207.66.52.56]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA01848; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:53:37 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 05:54:28 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > [snip] > As far as the desktop goes, in my understanding it's merely what I > proposed/said earlier, to ease entry into FreeBSD, but it will still make > it necessary for the user to read. > > If ye have suggestion as to make it evident to the user that they need to > be bothered to actually try to understand what the computer is trying to > `say' through the programs, then I'm all ears. > My experience has been that the people we can reach are those who mourn the loss of DOS batch programming. I sent my brother-in-law FreeBSD and the Complete FreeBSD. Nothing happened. I sent him a book on 'Learning the BASH shell', and he got it. > There is just one category of people we can never help: the lazy ones. > Never let the government get in the way of natural selection... -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:47:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15452 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15447 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:47:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA12817; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:47:11 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BC4F39.A4E4A80A@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 06:18:33 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicole Harrington , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nicole Harrington wrote: > > On 05-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > >> > >> Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > >> easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > >> just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > did you do to break my computer? > > > > *LOL* > > I invite everyone here to join Josef Grosch and myself on a few installa-thons > for some similiar experiences. I would love to have a few programmers there to > experience the true needs of the "comman people" who want to get rid of MS but > don't want another hobby. > I am struggling with this, too. For myself, although I'm capable of learning it, there are times when I just want the @#$%!! sound card to work without my having to sort out 47 different kernel options. I'd settle for a little script that would make Apache stop complaining at boot time and set itself up with the domain and IP that I entered on install. > I have to explain that FreeBSD is great, but there *IS* a learning curve. > But lets face it, do we really want to run our servers on something for the > desktop? If we really want that market, we need a FreeBSD-desktop version. IMHO. > I think we're closer than we think. A front end to pkg_info that sorts and searches, some scripts (as above) to take care of the easy gotchas, and more documentation aids (like Forrest Cavalier's Reuse RKT, Linux HOW-TO's, etc.). FreeBSD has a default configuration that it comes up in, let's just refine that a little by helping it over the rough spots. Adding a default X configuration -- which doesn't get installed unless the user requests it -- doesn't take away from FreeBSD's capability as a server. Server users always need to customize it anyway, as soon as there's any networking involved beyond a PPP connection. As long as we never let the GUI admin tools stray from the UN*X mantra of text files, you'll never lose your command-line capability. > BTW: on a side note. > At the last installa-thon the Linux group was advertised, but not there. After > a dozen of so people asked my girlfriend where the Linux people were, she told > one person that "their server crashed so they could'nt make it, would you like > to try FreeBSD instead?" Looking like a cat stunned in oncomming headlights > they turned around and left. > I'd suggest you print out some copies of the Linux World article from December about how FreeBSD is better at being Linux than Linux. And, BTW, thanks for the extra effort [install-a-thons]. Glad you stopped lurking and joined us again. :-) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:48:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15710 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15705 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA12883; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:48:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BC4F39.A4E4A80A@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 06:18:33 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicole Harrington , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nicole Harrington wrote: > > On 05-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > >> > >> Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > >> easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > >> just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > did you do to break my computer? > > > > *LOL* > > I invite everyone here to join Josef Grosch and myself on a few installa-thons > for some similiar experiences. I would love to have a few programmers there to > experience the true needs of the "comman people" who want to get rid of MS but > don't want another hobby. > I am struggling with this, too. For myself, although I'm capable of learning it, there are times when I just want the @#$%!! sound card to work without my having to sort out 47 different kernel options. I'd settle for a little script that would make Apache stop complaining at boot time and set itself up with the domain and IP that I entered on install. > I have to explain that FreeBSD is great, but there *IS* a learning curve. > But lets face it, do we really want to run our servers on something for the > desktop? If we really want that market, we need a FreeBSD-desktop version. IMHO. > I think we're closer than we think. A front end to pkg_info that sorts and searches, some scripts (as above) to take care of the easy gotchas, and more documentation aids (like Forrest Cavalier's Reuse RKT, Linux HOW-TO's, etc.). FreeBSD has a default configuration that it comes up in, let's just refine that a little by helping it over the rough spots. Adding a default X configuration -- which doesn't get installed unless the user requests it -- doesn't take away from FreeBSD's capability as a server. Server users always need to customize it anyway, as soon as there's any networking involved beyond a PPP connection. As long as we never let the GUI admin tools stray from the UN*X mantra of text files, you'll never lose your command-line capability. > BTW: on a side note. > At the last installa-thon the Linux group was advertised, but not there. After > a dozen of so people asked my girlfriend where the Linux people were, she told > one person that "their server crashed so they could'nt make it, would you like > to try FreeBSD instead?" Looking like a cat stunned in oncomming headlights > they turned around and left. > I'd suggest you print out some copies of the Linux World article from December about how FreeBSD is better at being Linux than Linux. And, BTW, thanks for the extra effort [install-a-thons]. Glad you stopped lurking and joined us again. :-) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:49:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15725 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15718 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:48:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA12902; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:48:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BC5A03.3FCA349B@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:04:35 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Err, maybe I've totally lost the plot here but can I ask a simple > question? Since when the hell did gender come into the discussions in > these mailing lists? > > I don't know about anyone else, but I never consider the gender of > person who posts a message, or to whom I reply. I can't recall any > sexist remarks/threads appearing here and I'm damn sure that they > wouldn't be tolerated. The subject of these lists is FreeBSD, does > gender, race, colour, or creed enter in to it? I think not. > The subject of this list is FreeBSD advocacy, and encouraging women to contribute to and use FreeBSD is a direct hit on the charter of the list, as I see it. Agree that it has no place on the technical lists, but here we need all the contributions we can get. Having a discussion of why women don't unlurk here is appropriate. As I said before, I think there are whole realms where they can lead us in positive directions if encouraged to do so. Witness Sue Blake's whole newbie-support thrust. We all talk about it, and Doug White works madly to *be* it, but she made the effort a concrete reality. That's a big success for FreeBSD, and Sue will be the first to tell you she had help, but my point is that she was there, she took the lead, she was encouraged to move ahead, and the result was good for FreeBSD. I'm glad you can ignore the gender of the poster. That means we're all doing something right. There's very little of the babbling immaturity that spoils /. and IW Electric and ZDnet here. We're not focusing on sex for any reason other than to be sure we are doing the right thing and being as good at serving our users (of all stripes) as possible. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:49:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15767 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:49:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from acheron.middleboro.ma.us (acheron.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.162.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15760 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:49:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us) Received: (from mason@localhost) by acheron.middleboro.ma.us (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA26544; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:49:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:49:41 -0500 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: Don Wilde Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990206094941.B26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> References: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:54:28AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:54:28AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > My experience has been that the people we can reach are those who mourn > the loss of DOS batch programming. Eek... Um... I came to BSD from a hardcore Mac background, and I know other folks who have done that as well... My experience is that most old DOS fans are now hooked into NT... I still think it's the case that most BSD people were initially exposed to it in college... -- Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://acheron.ne.mediaone.net (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:52:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15916 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:52:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from acheron.middleboro.ma.us (acheron.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.162.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15911 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us) Received: (from mason@localhost) by acheron.middleboro.ma.us (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA26773; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:52:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:52:37 -0500 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: "Hudson, Laura" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990206095237.C26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Hudson, Laura on Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 03:29:11PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 03:29:11PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > > Ooh... That's a really bizarre image. (A bizarre moving > > image, at that. Sort of a morph...) > > You should lay off the happy shrooms, buddy Hey. People who use Unix as their primary OS at home don't need drugs. :P -- Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://acheron.ne.mediaone.net (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:53:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16080 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:53:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16073 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA18353 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 06:52:57 -0800 Message-ID: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 06:57:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16562 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16552 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:57:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA13987; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:57:34 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36BC66A7.6F362D1A@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:58:31 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mason Loring Bliss CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net> <19990206094941.B26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mason Loring Bliss wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:54:28AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > > > My experience has been that the people we can reach are those who mourn > > the loss of DOS batch programming. > > Eek... Um... I came to BSD from a hardcore Mac background, and I know other > folks who have done that as well... My experience is that most old DOS fans > are now hooked into NT... I still think it's the case that most > BSD people were initially exposed to it in college... > sure, but we need to attract those who have discovered that NT doesn't work! If we resign ourselves to expecting only college UNIXen, we're drastically limiting our potential, especially with M$ spending millions of $$$ on bribes to colleges. We need to uproot people from every other field out there! Why don't you see if you can make a list of arguments we can use to infect Mac users? I'd think they'd be the hardest to convert, inasmuch as they're the most GUI-and-app-centered. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:24:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19036 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19031 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts7-07.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.134] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 1099b2-0005Uu-00; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:24:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990206103126.007c4100@istar.ca> X-Sender: genisis@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:31:26 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Dru Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:52 AM 06/02/99 -0800, you wrote: >Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both >willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? > >- Jordan And to think I've been converting people for free all this time? What's the starting salary? (tongue just partially in cheek)... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:25:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19152 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19147 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.60]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA273F; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:25:51 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18479.918314469@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:34:45 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! Cc: Kevin Weiss , Kevin Weiss , FreeBSD Advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ moved to advocacy ] On 06-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > The magazines would love to publish more articles on FreeBSD - I get > asked about writing articles from the various editors all the time. That's good to hear... > Unfortunately, almost each and every time someone like yourself is > asked to actually write an article to deal with this shortcoming in > FreeBSD's PR picture, they usually quickly deflate, citing a lack of > writing skill, time, ideas for a topic, or whatever, and the end > result is that nothing tangible comes out of it and the problem goes > right on being a problem. :-( Well, what is it that they want for articles? I mean, we got a bunch of articles appearing on the likes such as Daemon News and the FreeBSD 'zine. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:37:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20145 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20140 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA18572; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Kevin Weiss , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:34:45 +0100." Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:36:59 -0800 Message-ID: <18569.918315419@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, what is it that they want for articles? I mean, we got a bunch of > articles appearing on the likes such as Daemon News and the FreeBSD 'zine. They're open - you make the pitch and they'll generally let you know how far to the left or the right of what they're looking for (at that particular time) your submission is. But if you don't ask, you'll never know. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:41:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20354 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from acheron.middleboro.ma.us (acheron.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.162.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20349 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:41:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us) Received: (from mason@localhost) by acheron.middleboro.ma.us (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA03900; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:41:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:41:12 -0500 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: Don Wilde Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990206104111.E26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> References: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net> <19990206094941.B26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> <36BC66A7.6F362D1A@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36BC66A7.6F362D1A@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:58:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:58:31AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > sure, but we need to attract those who have discovered that NT doesn't > work! Definitely. :) > We need to uproot people from every other field out there! I think a very valuable thing would be to convert Solaris people, and IT managers who deal with Solaris. If we had an effective plan of attach there, we'd be in good shape. Solaris occupies the role we want, which is to say meaty, centralized operations. I see NT as being more of a threat on the desktop side, where our image isn't very strong. GNU/Linux is seemingly focussed on that end, however, and I'd rather let them keep their converts so as to better focus on the server market. > Why don't you see if you can make a list of arguments we can use to infect > Mac users? I'd think they'd be the hardest to convert, inasmuch as they're > the most GUI-and-app-centered. Hm... Looking at the Windows world of the past decade or so, it's hard to draw a distinction between that world and the Mac world in terms of GUI usage. Lots of Unix people tend to be fond of Macs, perhaps because of the same university-bred familiarity. (This may be changing, as Apple loses market share everywhere, but it's traditionally been the case. But then, things seem to be turning around for Apple a bit.) I think that converting Mac people will involve the dramatic success of the GNOME project, for one, and then lots and lots of OS-specific GUI tools for system administration. But then, this will draw in lots of MS people, too. (Here's an interesting idea... GUI tools to administer BSD that are themselves themed based on your preference of OS model. If you want Mac- like tools, you get them. If you want a control layout similar to Windows, you get that.) -- Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://acheron.ne.mediaone.net (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:47:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20690 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:47:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20682 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:47:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.60]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA52C1; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:47:01 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18569.918315419@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:55:55 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy , FreeBSD Advocacy , Kevin Weiss Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Well, what is it that they want for articles? I mean, we got a bunch of >> articles appearing on the likes such as Daemon News and the FreeBSD >> 'zine. > > They're open - you make the pitch and they'll generally let you know > how far to the left or the right of what they're looking for (at that > particular time) your submission is. But if you don't ask, you'll > never know. :) True =) OK, let's take it from another view: what did they ask for in the past? Articles detailing inner working of *BSD? Articles about setting it up? Articles which proclaim absolute supremecy over all other OS's? I mean, we do have a few writers who occasionally write for the Daemon News, the FreeBSD 'zine or other related ezines or paper mags. I myself am also working up some articles for the above mentioned sites/ezines and would also be glad to try my hand for a papermag article. I mean, if no-one ever does then who will? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:50:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21148 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21140 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:50:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id CAA12076; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:50:29 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:50:25 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Dru Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. References: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990206103126.007c4100@istar.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990206103126.007c4100@istar.ca>; from Dru on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:31:26AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:31:26AM -0500, Dru wrote: > At 06:52 AM 06/02/99 -0800, you wrote: >> Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both >> willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? You're asking about who feels qualified? Everyone here feels qualified to do everything all the time. I mean, how else ya gonna get in deep enough to learn this damn thing? But from what I've heard you (Jordan) say in the past, the person you'd need would have to have excellent skills in a particular set of areas, and the kind of wardrobe that doesn't always come with all of those skills. > And to think I've been converting people for free all this time? > What's the starting salary? (tongue just partially in cheek)... Didn't you see it, up there in the subject line? Anyway, you Eudora users who can't make it wrap lines had better get in first, you've got a _lot_ of fast talking to do :-) (Does anyone else here watch the mailers in the headers?) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:54:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21282 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21277 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.60]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA56D2; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:54:08 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:03:01 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both > willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? Not me, I merely try to take a broad approach for *BSD, doing advocacy, programming, bugfixing, making pesty side remarks (errrr...). Just curious, why should the Project need a full time advocacy person given the OpenSource/Free OS type of approach for the project? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:58:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21844 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21839 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA18743; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Sue Blake cc: Dru , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 02:50:25 +1100." <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:57:57 -0800 Message-ID: <18739.918316677@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But from what I've heard you (Jordan) say in the past, the person you'd > need would have to have excellent skills in a particular set of areas, > and the kind of wardrobe that doesn't always come with all of those skills. Well, let's just say that the person would have to either be already expert or seriously, majorly motivated (even by -advocacy standard) enough to gain such proficiency on the job. > > And to think I've been converting people for free all this time? > > What's the starting salary? (tongue just partially in cheek)... > > Didn't you see it, up there in the subject line? I can offer a competetive salary - a bit more than $10K/yr. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:58:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21863 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:58:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21858 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:58:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id CAA12119; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:58:27 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207025820.37219@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:58:20 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Dru Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. References: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990206103126.007c4100@istar.ca> <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 02:50:25AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > And to think I've been converting people for free all this time? > > What's the starting salary? (tongue just partially in cheek)... Oops, shoulda made it clearer that my tongue was fully in cheek! Jump right in Dru, you'd probably be great, just get rid of that Eu^H^H Eh, Sue, cut that out! -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 07:59:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21926 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:59:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21921 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA18768; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:59:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:03:01 +0100." Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:59:10 -0800 Message-ID: <18765.918316750@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just curious, why should the Project need a full time advocacy person given > the OpenSource/Free OS type of approach for the project? Because doing good advocacy is 99% grunt work (organizing shows, writing press releases, calling reporters on the phone) and it's a full-time job besides. Expecting a volunteer to do very grunty work for at least 40 hours a week is not very realistic. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 08:14:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23519 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23511 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id DAA12178; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:14:13 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207031410.46579@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:14:10 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Don Wilde Cc: Mason Loring Bliss , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BC4994.B75F9675@thuntek.net> <19990206094941.B26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> <36BC66A7.6F362D1A@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <36BC66A7.6F362D1A@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:58:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:58:31AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > We need to uproot people from every other > field out there! Why don't you see if you can make a list of arguments > we can use to infect Mac users? I'd think they'd be the hardest to > convert, inasmuch as they're the most GUI-and-app-centered. Nah, Mac users are a push-over. You tried running a network on Macs? Ever watched grass grow? Stick a FreeBSD box in the middle and they all sing their little icons off. Sooner or later some Mac user wants to big-note himself by typing 'man ls' on the Big Nasty and it spreads from there, very slowly but solidly, converting as a pull instead of a push. Now if you're thinking of FreeBSD as a desktop rather than as a server... different story! -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 09:21:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29957 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29951 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 597 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 1999 17:21:10 -0000 Date: 6 Feb 1999 09:21:10 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:21:10 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Message-ID: <19990206092110.A474@dub.net> References: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990206103126.007c4100@istar.ca> <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990207025025.39052@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 02:50:25AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 02:50:25AM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > Anyway, you Eudora users who can't make it wrap lines had better get in > first, you've got a _lot_ of fast talking to do :-) That whole no-line-wrap business can be annoying especially when trying to reply to someone and only getting one ">" in front of the single line they typed ;) > (Does anyone else here watch the mailers in the headers?) Yep. I do all the time. In fact I was wondering why you're still using a version of mutt .07 versions behind the time :) -Bill -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29993 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29988 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:21:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15947; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:21:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:21:45 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. In-Reply-To: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both > willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? > > - Jordan > I love doing advocacy, but I wouldn't feel qualified to do it as a full time job. I'm more the "let's form a volounteer advocacy group!" type person :) Besides, it's more fun for me, if I spend my own money on it :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 10:04:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04257 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04252 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id TAA79025; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:03:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDC's Feb. 1998 report on FreeBSD ? References: <36AFDE5D.C206DB9@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Feb 1999 19:03:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni"'s message of "Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:49:49 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > I saw this in www.IDC.com, but it coest $1,500. A well their prediction > is probably outdated. Do we give a shit what a site that runs on IIS 4.0 and proclaims "Best viewed with Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0" has to say about us? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 10:06:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04616 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04434 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:06:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 109C7z-0004KO-00; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:06:48 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA01645; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:06:11 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18668; Sat, 6 Feb 99 18:06:08 GMT Message-Id: <36BC82BF.9DAE2E55@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:58:23 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com> <19990205222817.I6050@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:19:06AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Err, maybe I've totally lost the plot here but can I ask a simple > > question? Since when the hell did gender come into the discussions in > > these mailing lists? > > > > I don't know about anyone else, but I never consider the gender of > > person who posts a message, or to whom I reply. I can't recall any > > sexist remarks/threads appearing here and I'm damn sure that they > > wouldn't be tolerated. The subject of these lists is FreeBSD, does > > gender, race, colour, or creed enter in to it? I think not. > > Overtly, no, but issues like race and gender always come up, it's > a factor of human life. Race is less apparent than gender in many > ways; often names boil down to simple categories of "vaguely > european", "vaguely oriential", and "I have no idea." If, on the > other hand, your name is Licia, Laura, or Sue, chances are pretty > good that most males of european descent are immediately going to > leap to the conclusion the poster is female. True, but then there are plenty of names where the gender is not obvious at all (except to residents of the poster's country). > Depending on who the > reader is, this will cause them to pay more or less attention to > the author, be more or less critical of their opinions, and more > or less patient with them. That should depend on the content of the message rather than the person who sent it, surely > All of these also apply to those of a different culture. > > I, in general, am more interested, less critical, and more patient, > but hey, that's just me. I'm also less likely to assume a woman > is an idiot, I'd rather assume she's just an expert at something > else. I know this makes me incredibly sexist, Not wishing to pass judgement on your opinions, but I can see some (all?) women reading this to consider that rather patronizing. > but in my experience > there ARE far more male jerks, morons, and madmen than female. ;^) > Got to agree with you there :-( > I also try to cultivate helping relationships with people of > different cultures. I've met people over the net in Africa, Australia, > and England whom I now consider good friends, simply by answering > (or occasionally asking) a few questions. Who knows, I may someday > get the chance to share my home, or perhaps even theirs, simply for > the price of helping somebody with PPP, or DNS, or something else > that is relatively trivial for me. > Yes, that's one of the great things about the international nature of the Internet, you can learn so much more than, in this case, FreeBSD. Someone recently took the time to explain the definition of "felony" and "misdemeanour" in the context of US law after a thread about spam, for example. > > > The FAD mailing list? I would wait until it gets more traffic. Currently > > > there are only 12 subscribers, and volume is very low. So far most messages > > > are reply-less :/ > > > > Well, I think it's a great idea, I've subscribed but I can't promise to > > make any worthwhile contribution for a time yet. I've subscribed in the > > hope that I can learn from others but if I feel able to contribute then > > I'll chip in. > > I'd like to join, being one of those odd people who have actually > developed applications on FreeBSD, but I can't keep up with my > current email load. > > Perhaps a passionate plea for more application developers would make > a good column for Daemon News? It's entirely possible that there > are many other potential developers and they just don't know about > your list yet. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > I don't know ;-) > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Q. How many Software Engineers does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. It's a hardware problem FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 10:57:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10749 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:57:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10741 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06222; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990206105654.A6205@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:56:54 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <18349.918312777@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:52:57AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:52:57AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Some of you like doing advocacy, but how many of you would feel both > willing and qualified to do it full time? As a job? I don't feel qualified to do this a a full time, paying job. I am at the core, a geek. I have done lots of thing in an advocacy role, such as BAFUG and the Install-A-thons. If you do hire a full time advocate please have him/her contact me. I would be very happy to work with that person. This is a smart idea, jordan. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 13:45:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26315 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:45:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26310 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21593; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:45:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd021569; Sat Feb 6 14:45:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19715; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:45:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902062145.OAA19715@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, licia@o-o.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990205222817.I6050@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Feb 5, 99 10:28:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Overtly, no, but issues like race and gender always come up, it's > a factor of human life. Race is less apparent than gender in many > ways; often names boil down to simple categories of "vaguely > european", "vaguely oriential", and "I have no idea." If, on the > other hand, your name is Licia, Laura, or Sue, chances are pretty > good that most males of european descent are immediately going to > leap to the conclusion the poster is female. Depending on who the > reader is, this will cause them to pay more or less attention to > the author, be more or less critical of their opinions, and more > or less patient with them. All of these also apply to those of a > different culture. With respect, I have to say that most of this is baloney. Classification of people is almost always based on self identification; this is true in face-to-face forums as well, although some aspects of self are more evident in face-to-face. Having come up through bulletin boards from before the late 70's, I claim there is anonymity on the other end of a wire. If Sue had been posting from day one under the name "Frank", and had steered clear of discussions in which rendering oneself as an example were necessary, you wouldn't be able to make assumptions about "Frank's" gender. Not everyone's name falls into sterotypically male or sterotypically female according to western european tradition. Hell, my name's "Terry", I have a sibling named "Tracy", and another sibling whose middle name is "Lee". I know many, many people named names like "Robin", "Jamie", "Tony", "Micky", "Lynn", etc. ...and, yes, "Pat". This supposed "Sword of Damocles" is two edged. If a forum is going to react, as you predict, on the basis of the assumption of gender and/or race, said assumption itself based on a moniker, why then you control that forum utterly, since you are free to pick whatever moniker you want to map your presented identity (and therefore the forum's assumptions) onto, to the most benefit to yourself. How many of you have ever met "Jordan"? One of the most public figures in terms of face-to-face on these lists, but can you tell me, other than anecdotal information and references to possibly forged pictures on WWW pages that could have been PhotoShop'ed from those that came with a new picture fram or wallet, what "Jordan" looks like? You have absolutely *no idea* who you are communicating with when you are on a mailing list, unless they identify themselves. The only way you can classify these people is if you pull a "Leather Goddesses of Phobos", where at the start of the adventure game, your avatar is in a bar and has to go to the restroom. The game gets its idea of gender from which one you pick -- because at the other end of a wire, it can't see you to make the judgement. So you declare your guess, and you aren't contradicted, so you assume you now know. Any classification has only the importance that you attach to it yourself. It's not a cultural thing, it's a personal thing. Bias of any kind always is, no matter how much someone might want to blame their culture, their teachers, or their family. And personal, too, is the bias that causes you assume there will be a bias. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 13:57:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27504 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27497 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:56:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24081; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:56:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024055; Sat Feb 6 14:56:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20236; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:56:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902062156.OAA20236@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:56:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, kevin.weiss@mail.utexas.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18569.918315419@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 6, 99 07:36:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, what is it that they want for articles? I mean, we got a bunch of > > articles appearing on the likes such as Daemon News and the FreeBSD 'zine. > > They're open - you make the pitch and they'll generally let you know > how far to the left or the right of what they're looking for (at that > particular time) your submission is. But if you don't ask, you'll > never know. :) "We *love* the article idea; only could you drop the FreeBSD angle, and do it about Linux instead? Our readers really want to hear about Linux, and how to implement a POS system using Linux would really sell..." Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 14:06:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28175 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28169 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.130]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA72E6; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:06:31 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199902062156.OAA20236@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:15:27 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, kevin.weiss@mail.utexas.edu, (Jordan K. Hubbard) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Feb-99 Terry Lambert wrote: > "We *love* the article idea; only could you drop the > FreeBSD angle, and do it about Linux instead? Our > readers really want to hear about Linux, and how to > implement a POS system using Linux would really sell..." Who needs Beastie when we have Terry eh? =) True Terry, they might to prefer to hear about Linux, but that's not what we are going to write about... Btw, that quote does show the average understanding those Linux users have about *BSD as well as the magazine makers ;) *BSD or burst! =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 14:45:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01980 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01968 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 229672EE1A; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:45:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990206104111.E26488@acheron.middleboro.ma.us> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 14:45:43 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Mason Loring Bliss Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? - gone into overdrive Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Don Wilde Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA01972 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Mason Loring Bliss wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:58:31AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > >> sure, but we need to attract those who have discovered that NT doesn't >> work! > > Definitely. :) > >> We need to uproot people from every other field out there! > > I think a very valuable thing would be to convert Solaris people, and IT > managers who deal with Solaris. If we had an effective plan of attach there, > we'd be in good shape. Solaris occupies the role we want, which is to say > meaty, centralized operations. I see NT as being more of a threat on the > desktop side, where our image isn't very strong. GNU/Linux is seemingly > focussed on that end, however, and I'd rather let them keep their converts > so as to better focus on the server market. There is one thing I would like to see FreeBSD incorperate is the solaris style patches. Linux has been known as the kernel de'jour as FreeBSD as stable and robust, but still needing a bit more work when a security upgrade is needed ,or some new feature added. Solaris patches are cool becouse all one has to do is download the patch and run it, then reboot. No make world, no compiling. Managers and stressed out admins love this. It's not the best idea, and I believe that we would in most cases still need to rebuild the kernel, but a simple popup that says, "hi what kernel name do you want to rebuild" would be a simple cure. I would also love to see FreeBSD offer several precompiled kernel options. Sort of a Low, med, high. Not only would this provide better examples of what can be done to those starting out, but it will help in situations like the magazine that tested us against other OS's with our GENERIC kernel. Nicole |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 15:22:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05696 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05573 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9F88F2EE1A; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:55:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18739.918316677@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 14:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Dru , Sue Blake Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA05635 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> But from what I've heard you (Jordan) say in the past, the person you'd >> need would have to have excellent skills in a particular set of areas, >> and the kind of wardrobe that doesn't always come with all of those skills. > > Well, let's just say that the person would have to either be already > expert or seriously, majorly motivated (even by -advocacy standard) > enough to gain such proficiency on the job. > >> > And to think I've been converting people for free all this time? >> > What's the starting salary? (tongue just partially in cheek)... >> >> Didn't you see it, up there in the subject line? > > I can offer a competetive salary - a bit more than $10K/yr. :-) > > - Jordan > I think I would love such a job.. except it would require me to wear something other jeans, tennis shoes and a my (logo of some company who gave me free shirts) shirts. That I can't give up. ;> UNIX. It's not just an OS, it's a fashion statement! Nicole |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 19:19:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25979 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25922 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:18:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from jackv (adsl-209-76-108-106.dsl.pacbell.net [209.76.108.106]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id TAA15781 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:15:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004201be5248$98bd0540$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:10:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Friday February 5, 2:27 PM (EST) Red Hat Designates Dell Systems as Certified and Compatible With Red Hat Linux RESEARCH TRIANGLE, N.C. (Feb. 5) BUSINESS WIRE -Feb. 5, 1999-- No. 1 Personal Workstation Supplier Worldwide, Second Largest Supplier of Servers in the U.S. Offers Online Sales of Retail Version of Red Hat Linux Red Hat(R) Software, Inc. announced today that it has designated selected server and workstation configurations from Dell(R) Computer Corporation (Nasdaq:DELL), the leading direct systems vendor worldwide, as certified and compatible with Red Hat Linux. Information on today's announcement can be found at http://www.redhat.com/partners/dell . Red Hat has awarded Hardware Certification to selected configurations of the Dell PowerEdge(R) 1300 and 2300 servers. With today's announcement, PowerEdge server customers in the United States can now obtain the retail version of Red Hat Linux 5.2 in four ways: online from Dell through its DellWare(tm) procurement service, through Red Hat, through any Red Hat Linux authorized reseller, or by purchasing a server from Dell and having the software factory-installed through its DellPlus(tm) Custom Factory Integration program. More information on the certified configurations of Dell PowerEdge servers can be found at http://www.dell.com/products/poweredge/linux/index.htm . The company also awarded selected configurations of the Dell Precision(tm) WorkStation 410 and 610 as compatible with the Red Hat Linux operating system. In the United States, Dell Precision WorkStation customers will be able to purchase workstations from Dell and have Red Hat Linux pre-installed through its DellPlus Custom Factory Integration program. More information on the compatible Dell Precision WorkStation configurations and ordering information can be found at http://www.dell.com/products/workstat/ISV/linux.htm . More than 10 million users currently run the Linux operating system. According to IDC Research, Linux was the fastest-growing server operating environment in 1998, capturing more than 17 percent of all server operating system shipments. "Dell's build-to-order business model, strong Internet presence, and direct relationship with customers are perfect complements to the development model of the Linux operating system," said Bob Young, CEO, Red Hat Software. "The certification of Dell's popular workstation and server lines, combined with the company's emphasis on performance and quality, will deliver Red Hat Linux users a highly-reliable, established solution for corporate computing." "Through our DellPlus Custom Factory Integration program, we have been offering Red Hat Linux pre-installed to customer specification for some time and will continue to do that," said Mike Lambert, senior vice president of Dell's Enterprise Systems Group. "With this announcement, customers will have increased certainty that Red Hat Linux runs well on our Dell Precision WorkStations and PowerEdge servers. We're working with Red Hat to ensure customers around the world receive additional value and reliability when they choose to run Red Hat Linux on Dell systems." About Linux Linux is the cooperatively developed POSIX-oriented, multi-user, multi-tasking operating system used worldwide. Linux is strongly differentiated from virtually all other operating systems because it is "open source" software, with the source code freely available to all users. Unlike binary-only operating systems that restrict access to the source code, Linux benefits from a worldwide community of highly experienced programmers and technically savvy academics who have the access to enhance and improve the system. Linux is used as an exceptional-value, fully functional UNIX workstation for Internet servers and other applications. Red Hat Linux is maintained as "freely distributable" software available from many sites on the Internet. About Red Hat (R) Software, Inc. Founded in 1994, Red Hat Software is based in Research Triangle Park, NC, where it builds and maintains the award winning Red Hat Linux operating system. Working in cooperation with a huge development team of research, academic, and commercial software developers over the Internet, Red Hat's goal is to build the most accessible and advanced operating system available anywhere. Red Hat Linux for Intel(R), DEC Alpha(tm), and Sun SPARC(R) platforms continues to gain recognition in the computer industry. From 1996 to the present, Red Hat Linux was twice named InfoWorld's Product of the Year, was given a Productivity accolade in Software Development's "Jolt" Awards, was named an Environment/Desktop finalist in the Ziff-Davis European Excellence Awards, won the editor's choice awards from both the Linux Journal and Australian Personal Computing Magazines, and won the "Just Plain Cool" award. For more information about Red Hat Software and Red Hat products and technologies, please call 1-888-REDHAT1 or visit our web site at http://www.redhat.com . Reviews encouraged. LINUX is a trademark of Linus Torvalds. RED HAT is a registered trademark of Red Hat Software, Inc. UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group. INTEL is a registered trademark of Intel Corporation. SPARC is a registered trademark of SPARC International, Inc. Products bearing the SPARC trademarks are based on an architecture developed by Sun Microsystems, Inc. ALPHA is a trademark of Digital Equipment Corporation. -0- sb/bos* CONTACT: Dell Precision WorkStations Jon Weisblatt phone: (512) 728-1226 fax: (512) 723-6247 pager: (800) 476-3700, PIN 140-0912 or Schwartz Communications for Red Hat Bryan Scanlon or Jennifer Aprile (781) 684-0770 redhat@schwartz-pr.com KEYWORD: NORTH CAROLINA INDUSTRY KEYWORD: COMED COMPUTERS/ELECTRONICS Today's News On The Net - Business Wire's full file on the Internet with Hyperlinks to your home page. URL: http://www.businesswire.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 20:29:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01973 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01955 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeays@statcan.ca) Received: from stcinet (stcinet.statcan.ca [142.206.128.146]) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.9.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA00623; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA24784; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:29:31 -0500; sender jeays@statcan.ca Message-ID: <36BD16A6.57764D98@statcan.ca> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:29:26 -0500 From: Mike Jeays Organization: Statistics Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Wilde CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? References: <36BC4F39.A4E4A80A@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since the subject came up recently, I would like to announce that I have a short TK script that makes it easy to do text scans on the list of packages on the CD-ROM, to install and deinstall them quickly, and to show which ones have already been installed. It is rather crude as it is one of my first attempts at writing anything in TK, but if the idea is useful I would be willing to improve it. It is at www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad161 - comments welcome. BSD license, should anyone care! -- Mike Jeays : System Development Division, Statistics Canada 14-O R.H. Coats Building, Holland Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0T6 Voice (613)-951-9929 FAX 951-0607 Don Wilde wrote: > > Nicole Harrington wrote: > > > > On 05-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:05:46PM -0500, Hudson, Laura wrote: > > >> > > >> Of course, before we attack the NT market, we also need to make FreeBSD > > >> easier for the average newbie. How many times recently have you heard "I > > >> just installed FreeBSD, why doesn't my sound card work, d00d?!???!?!" > > > > > > Speaking of this, I just installed Free BDS, and now my MicroWare > > > UltraPixel 243 card doesn't work. It was fine under Microsoft. What > > > did you do to break my computer? > > > > > > > *LOL* > > > > I invite everyone here to join Josef Grosch and myself on a few installa-thons > > for some similiar experiences. I would love to have a few programmers there to > > experience the true needs of the "comman people" who want to get rid of MS but > > don't want another hobby. > > > I am struggling with this, too. For myself, although I'm capable of > learning it, there are times when I just want the @#$%!! sound card to > work without my having to sort out 47 different kernel options. I'd > settle for a little script that would make Apache stop complaining at > boot time and set itself up with the domain and IP that I entered on > install. > > > I have to explain that FreeBSD is great, but there *IS* a learning curve. > > But lets face it, do we really want to run our servers on something for the > > desktop? If we really want that market, we need a FreeBSD-desktop version. IMHO. > > > I think we're closer than we think. A front end to pkg_info that sorts > and searches, some scripts (as above) to take care of the easy gotchas, > and more documentation aids (like Forrest Cavalier's Reuse RKT, Linux > HOW-TO's, etc.). FreeBSD has a default configuration that it comes up > in, let's just refine that a little by helping it over the rough spots. > Adding a default X configuration -- which doesn't get installed unless > the user requests it -- doesn't take away from FreeBSD's capability as a > server. Server users always need to customize it anyway, as soon as > there's any networking involved beyond a PPP connection. As long as we > never let the GUI admin tools stray from the UN*X mantra of text files, > you'll never lose your command-line capability. > > > BTW: on a side note. > > At the last installa-thon the Linux group was advertised, but not there. After > > a dozen of so people asked my girlfriend where the Linux people were, she told > > one person that "their server crashed so they could'nt make it, would you like > > to try FreeBSD instead?" Looking like a cat stunned in oncomming headlights > > they turned around and left. > > > I'd suggest you print out some copies of the Linux World article from > December about how FreeBSD is better at being Linux than Linux. And, > BTW, thanks for the extra effort [install-a-thons]. Glad you stopped > lurking and joined us again. :-) > > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Mike Jeays : System Development Division, Statistics Canada 14-O R.H. Coats Building, Holland Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0T6 Voice (613)-951-9929 FAX 951-0607 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 20:58:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05176 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:58:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05170 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA21361; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:57:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com cc: Kevin Weiss , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:20:04 PST." <19990206112004.B6205@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:57:43 -0800 Message-ID: <21357.918363463@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > 2 suggestions. 1, post the list of article ideas you have on the web. If > you don't have time put this list into a nice web page, send it to me and > I'll put up the page on BAFUG and FreeBSD can just link to this > page. suggestion 2, this advocacy person you are looking for, have them > write an article or 2. o FreeBSD as a super web server. o FreeBSD as a super mail server. o FreeBSD as a super news server. o FreeBSD as a super database server. o FreeBSD as a super desktop (they lie, we lie! :-). o How FreeBSD is saving my company. o How my company is saving FreeBSD. o What I did with FreeBSD on my summer vacation o FreeBSD for pregnant teens. o Open Source and Drug Abuse - a connection? (Psychology today) In other words, you name it and most magazines will take it. As I just finished explaining to someone else, most magazines don't actually *CARE* what they publish, just so long as each article doesn't contradict itself too much and is marginally topical (mentions the word "computer" somewhere in the body). Your average editor, especially in the free software world, hasn't got a clue about the topic and is mostly just looking for inches to fill for each upcoming issue. Give him 1500 words about something which looks topical and you're published - it doesn't matter if what you have to say is 99% crap. Just go look at some of the regurgitated dreck being published by the Linux advocacy camp sometime if you want to see the kinds of standard we've got to live up to here. :( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 21:01:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05524 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05518 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA21382; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, kevin.weiss@mail.utexas.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Frustrating to read...ugh! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 21:56:34 GMT." <199902062156.OAA20236@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:58:47 -0800 Message-ID: <21379.918363527@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "We *love* the article idea; only could you drop the > FreeBSD angle, and do it about Linux instead? Our > readers really want to hear about Linux, and how to > implement a POS system using Linux would really sell..." Haven't heard that yet. Most of the magazines I deal with have already tapped out the Linux market, or would at least like to avoid doing so any more quickly than necessary, and rather welcome a change of topic. It's easy to draw conclusions like the above if you haven't actually tried it lately and hey, I haven't seen YOU writing any articles lately, Terry! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 21:03:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05694 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05685 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA21410; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Mark Ovens cc: Wes Peters , Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:58:23 GMT." <36BC82BF.9DAE2E55@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 21:02:28 -0800 Message-ID: <21406.918363748@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) - Jordan P.S. I'm only half joking. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 21:17:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06745 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:17:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06740 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26113; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:17:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:17:06 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <21406.918363748@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) > > - Jordan > > P.S. I'm only half joking. > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 22:02:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10626 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10621 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.nmhtech.com) Received: by xwin.nmhtech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 075A72EE1A; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:02:30 -0800 (PST) From: Nicole Harrington To: Licia Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K.Hubbard" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA10622 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Feb-99 My Secret Spies Reported That Licia wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! >> Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons >> being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving >> attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) >> >> - Jordan >> >> P.S. I'm only half joking. >> > > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > In the same position as the men, wanting more women in computing! ;) Nicole |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ nicole@nmhtech.com | http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | http://www.dangermouse.org -------------------------(((---(((----------------------- - Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD - - Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman - - I'm not ADD - I'm just Multithreaded - - Microsoft: What bug would you like today? - ---------------------------------------------------------- SYSADMIN(1) Sysadmin is the keeper of all things computer, is generally harangued, must be supplied with caffeine, chocolate, and sushi in order to function properly, cannot be exposed to direct sunlight, and must not be allowed to have a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 22:11:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11478 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11473 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:11:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA14295; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:11:22 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207171117.14067@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:11:18 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Licia Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <21406.918363748@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Licia on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > P.S. I'm only half joking. > > > > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) Attracted to FreeBSD? :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 22:15:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11849 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11842 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA31392; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:17:06 CST." Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:15:30 -0800 Message-ID: <31388.918368130@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In *exactly* the same position. This is one issue that lesbians and heterosexual males can definitely get together on! :-) Of course, don't get me started on the gay males. Every USENIX conference is like the happy hunting grounds for the single ones and those who want to get laid get laid plenty. Life is just NOT fair! :) - Jordan P.S. Unless we want to change this list to advocate@freebsd.org, we should probably redirect to -chat. ;) > > On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > P.S. I'm only half joking. > > > > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 22:16:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11898 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11892 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29952; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:16:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:16:07 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Sue Blake cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <19990207171117.14067@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > > > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > > > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > > > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) > > > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > P.S. I'm only half joking. > > > > > > > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > > Attracted to FreeBSD? :-) > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- ahh... that's why I like FreeBSD so much? (digging through /usr/src/ looking for the #include statements!) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 23:26:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17359 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17353 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:26:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03152; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:26:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:26:46 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Jack Velte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here's the $10,000 question. Message-ID: <19990206232646.G27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <004201be5248$98bd0540$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <004201be5248$98bd0540$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net>; from Jack Velte on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:10:33PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:10:33PM -0500, Jack Velte wrote: > Friday February 5, 2:27 PM (EST) > > Red Hat Designates Dell Systems as Certified and Compatible With Red Hat > Linux > > Linux is the cooperatively developed POSIX-oriented, multi-user, > multi-tasking operating system used worldwide. Linux is strongly > differentiated from virtually all other operating systems because it is > "open source" software, with the source code freely available to all users. This is bull. It's not differentiated from "virtually all" other OSes, just from the few that have virtually all of the user base. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 23:30:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17610 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:30:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17584 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03192; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:29:35 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mark Ovens , Wes Peters , Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) Message-ID: <19990206232935.H27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <36BC82BF.9DAE2E55@uk.radan.com> <21406.918363748@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <21406.918363748@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:02:28PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:02:28PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) Hmmm... jmb, I think we need a new mailing list here... geekdates@freebsd.org Greg P.S. sign me up... -- Gregory S. Sutter "Very funny, Scotty. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Now beam down my clothes." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 23:35:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18077 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18030 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18046; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36BD4216.DB24B7E3@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:34:46 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: Licia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <36BB988A.48159D7B@uk.radan.com> <19990205222817.I6050@softweyr.com> <36BC82BF.9DAE2E55@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Overtly, no, but issues like race and gender always come up, it's > > a factor of human life. Race is less apparent than gender in many > > ways; often names boil down to simple categories of "vaguely > > european", "vaguely oriential", and "I have no idea." If, on the > > other hand, your name is Licia, Laura, or Sue, chances are pretty > > good that most males of european descent are immediately going to > > leap to the conclusion the poster is female. > > True, but then there are plenty of names where the gender is not obvious > at all (except to residents of the poster's country). And some not even then. Feel free to guess the gender of my offspring, named Bailey. You have approximately a 50% chance of getting it right, give or take 1%. My sister-in-law's firstborn is named Morgan. Wanna guess at that one? ;^) > > > Depending on who the > > reader is, this will cause them to pay more or less attention to > > the author, be more or less critical of their opinions, and more > > or less patient with them. > > That should depend on the content of the message rather than the person > who sent it, surely Should, but doesn't. We all have our prejudices, some less than others, and some more controlled than others, but they're still there. > > All of these also apply to those of a different culture. > > > > I, in general, am more interested, less critical, and more patient, > > but hey, that's just me. I'm also less likely to assume a woman > > is an idiot, I'd rather assume she's just an expert at something > > else. I know this makes me incredibly sexist, > > Not wishing to pass judgement on your opinions, but I can see some > (all?) women reading this to consider that rather patronizing. So can I, but it still stands. I've been roundly cursed for opening doors for women, by the women as they walk through them, but I'm not about to stop. The women I've come to know, probably even a little bit, realize it's not patronizing. I prefer to talk to women, they're so much more able to carry on a conversation than the average male. Of course, I don't spend much time with "average" males, either. ;^) > > but in my experience > > there ARE far more male jerks, morons, and madmen than female. ;^) > > Got to agree with you there :-( > > > I also try to cultivate helping relationships with people of > > different cultures. I've met people over the net in Africa, Australia, > > and England whom I now consider good friends, simply by answering > > (or occasionally asking) a few questions. Who knows, I may someday > > get the chance to share my home, or perhaps even theirs, simply for > > the price of helping somebody with PPP, or DNS, or something else > > that is relatively trivial for me. > > Yes, that's one of the great things about the international nature of > the Internet, you can learn so much more than, in this case, FreeBSD. > Someone recently took the time to explain the definition of "felony" and > "misdemeanour" in the context of US law after a thread about spam, for > example. One of the most interesting conversations I've had came about as a result of helping a young man in England with a PPP problem. His name is Robin and he works for the Sheriff of Nottingham. I asked him if he gets a lot of people curious about this situation, and he said mostly from yanks; apparently the story isn't that well- known in England. ;^) > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > I don't know ;-) That's a culturally loaded joke, I don't expect anyone outside North America to get it. I'm not too sure about outside the "American Midwest," though it was originally given to me by a friend from central California. He's very much more well-read than the average US citizen, though. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 6 23:47:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19245 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19240 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18073; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:47:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36BD4511.9D1273A9@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:47:29 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Look, let's just cut to the chase: We need more women in computing! > > Why? Because we're lonely and we want to date them, any other reasons > > being cited here by our male contingent being just self-serving > > attempts to sugar coat this most basic of facts. :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > P.S. I'm only half joking. > > > > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) Tragically mistaken? (At least from the standpoint of leaving Jordan "high and dry.") I already caught mine, which I strongly suspect makes me the envy of many. Of course, they have more money than I do. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message