From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 7: 8: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from firewall1.lehman.com (firewall1.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B345C152F4 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nclayton@lehman.com) Received: from relay2.messaging-svcs4.lehman.com by firewall1.lehman.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA26224; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:07:39 -0400 (EDT) From: nclayton@lehman.com Message-Id: <199906141407.KAA26224@firewall1.lehman.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:00:35 +0100 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Tekmetrics tests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Organization: Lehman Brothers Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, In re the discussion last week about the TekMetrics tests; I've just got in touch with them to find out how we go about requesting/creating a FreeBSD technical test. More information as I get it. N -- --+==[ Systems Administrator, Year 2000 Test Lab, Lehman Brothers, Inc. ]==+-- --+==[ 1 Broadgate, London, EC2M 7HA 0171-601-0011 x5514 ]==+-- --+==[ Year 2000 Testing: It's about time. . . ]==+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 12:56:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171381509A for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA55455; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:36:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:36:16 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: nclayton@lehman.com Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests Message-ID: <19990614203616.A54976@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199906141407.KAA26224@firewall1.lehman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199906141407.KAA26224@firewall1.lehman.com>; from nclayton@lehman.com on Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 03:00:35PM +0100 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 03:00:35PM +0100, nclayton@lehman.com wrote: > In re the discussion last week about the TekMetrics tests; I've just > got in touch with them to find out how we go about requesting/creating > a FreeBSD technical test. More information as I get it. Right. I've had a follow-up e-mail from Bill Lake, one of their VPs. In it, he says; > We need to understand the business case for the development. We typically > develop a test for a customer requirement for about $20,000 - $40,000 USD > depending on the type of test. All of our tests are computer adaptive, which > requires a large test question set. This allows the tests to be delivered > securely over the internet, and makes them rapid and accurate. > > Assuming the test is a "standard" type of test, we could develop it and > validate it in 8-10 weeks. > > We would be glad to establilsh a reseller relationship in which you can sell > this and other tekmetrics tests and would pay you a commission. > > I don't know much about your organization- are you in a position to invest > in the development of the test? Would you want us to integrate into your > site so it appears to be a part of your content? What demand for this > product can you forcast? Would you consider bundling a test-prep package, > provided by tekmetrics.com with the FreeBSD? First off, does anyone want to follow this up before I do? He's said he'd prefer to discuss this on the phone, but this is a little tricky with me being in the UK and them in the US. If you do, give me a shout. Either way, I'm going to reply with some information about FreeBSD, how we discovered the Tekmetrics site, noticing the Linux test, the increase in take-up of FreeBSD, and so on, and see where we go from there. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 12:59:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6FE1509A for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25429; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199906141957.MAA25429@pike.cdrom.com> To: Wes Peters Cc: Bill Swingle , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: FreeBSDCon '99 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:55:27 MDT." <3758ADBF.C695D283@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:57:38 -0700 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said... >Bill Swingle wrote: >> >> I just put the finishing touches on the FreeBSDCon '99 website and have >> made it public. I wanted the lot of you to take a look at the site and >> see if you can find any gross errors or things that otherwise make us >> look silly. There will be more content added as it becomes available but >> the basics of the site are in place. Take a look and let me know what >> you think. >> >> http://www.freebsdcon.org/ > >Cool as snot! I'll be there. Two points: > >1 - In Jordan's mini-bio, Cessna should be capitalized. Are you sure >you want to point out the government of this country is silly enough >to allow Irish compu-terrorist to fly our friendly skies? ;^) > >2 - How do I reserve a slip in the Marina? It's gotta be cheaper >than staying IN the Radisson, and I might as well get in some good >sailing while I'm there. Do you think my wife will mind me borrowing >her Land Cruiser for a week? Hi Wes, Information on reserving a berth is available at http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Parks/marina/marsvc.html -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 16: 9:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D9514CB4; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA97507; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:01:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:01:34 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: core@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Tekmetrics tests Message-ID: <19990615000134.A53585@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Note: There's quite a wide distribution on this message. I've included all the groups I think are pertinent, my apologies if this seems irrelevant to you. Tekmetrics are a company offering on-line tests in various areas. See http://www.tekmetrics.com/ for more information. These tests include Unix programmer/administrator for a variety of Unices, and they (very) recently added Linux to the list (like, in the past week or so). I've been in touch with them to ask what would be necessary to create a FreeBSD version of these tests, which could then be resold on the FreeBSD Mall (15% of the purchase of the test goes back to the Mall, in the same way that Amazon's reseller programme works). Included below is my draft reply to one of their VPs, Bill Lake. This has moved quite rapidly, and I haven't had the chance to clue as many people in on this as I'd like. Hence this message. I've got a number of questions *before* I send this message to Bill that I think should be answered: 1. Are -core happy with this? You've expressed concern in the past about promoting Amazon's reseller programme on the freebsd.org site, preferring that it should remain non-commercial. Since the Mall is a commercial site I'm not anticipating any problems. 2. Are the Mall happy with this? Do you want to resell FreeBSD certification tests? 3. Can anyone re-spin my text? I've tried to avoid lots of marketing hype about FreeBSD, because I don't think it'll be appreciated. But if you can rephrase any of what follows, be my guest. 4. "Business case"? "Demand for the product"? "Bundling a test-prep package with FreeBSD"? These are things I'm going to need assistance on if we run with this. Volunteers? 5. Do we actually want a crowd of people being able to say "I'm an official FreeBSD Admin, as sanctioned by freebsd.org" if they take the tests? I haven't done extensive work to see how easy it is to spoof them, and at least part of it works on the honour principle ("You've got 180 seconds to answer this question, please don't look it up in the man page."). 6. Is there anyone better placed to deal with this than I am? I'm in the UK, which brings up timezone problems, and I'm not as intimately tied with FreeBSD and its marketing as (say) Jordan is (to pick a name reasonably at random). If anyone else thinks they're in a better position to run with this than I am, then please say so, I'm happy to hand it over if you can do it better. Comments, please. N [ My draft response follows ] Bill, First, thanks for getting in touch so quickly. I've copied this message to the advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list, where the initial discussion about Tekmetrics occured, so that the members of the list are kept up to date on what I've been doing. If you'd rather your response went to just me, please remove advocacy@freebsd.org from the cc: line. On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 02:25:00PM -0400, Bill Lake wrote: > We need to understand the business case for the development. We typically > develop a test for a customer requirement for about $20,000 - $40,000 USD > depending on the type of test. All of our tests are computer adaptive, which > requires a large test question set. This allows the tests to be delivered > securely over the internet, and makes them rapid and accurate. > > Assuming the test is a "standard" type of test, we could develop it and > validate it in 8-10 weeks. > > We would be glad to establilsh a reseller relationship in which you can sell > this and other tekmetrics tests and would pay you a commission. > > I don't know much about your organization- are you in a position to invest > in the development of the test? Would you want us to integrate into your > site so it appears to be a part of your content? What demand for this > product can you forcast? Would you consider bundling a test-prep package, > provided by tekmetrics.com with the FreeBSD? Right. I'll start with some information about FreeBSD, and how we came across Tekmetrics. In a nutshell, FreeBSD is Unix-like operating system running on Intel architecture and DEC Alpha systems. In this respect it's much like Linux, which you have just started offering tests for. FreeBSD differs in 4 main areas; 1. It's a complete Unix system. A Linux system typically consists of the kernel, and the user-land utilities. Different distributions of Linux (RedHat, Debian, Caldera, et al) have slightly different configuration systems, bundled software, and so on. With FreeBSD, it all comes as one package. The end-user can easily keep track of the latest developments with the FreeBSD source code (or only track the 'stable' changes, instead of the bleeding edge). But it's one coherent, managed system. 2. Linux started as a research project 7 or so years ago. FreeBSD is directly descended from the original Berkeley Unix, and the code can be traced back some 25 years. This gives FreeBSD a much more traditional feel than Linux, and means that much more generic Unix information applies to FreeBSD than it does to Linux. This is one reason why there are more Linux books than FreeBSD books. Most of the generic Unix books are very applicable to FreeBSD, and much less so to Linux. 3. FreeBSD is distributed under a slightly modified Berkeley license. In effect, it tells potential users of the code "Feel free to use this in commercial code, keeping the code secret, but you must say where you got the code from. You are under no obligation to contribute any changes you make back to FreeBSD." Linux is distributed under the GPL, which requires any changes to the code which are then made available in binary form to also be made available in source form. Both licenses have their uses, and we've found that many of the companies that use FreeBSD code are very willing to contribute some or all of their changes back to the project without the threat of the GPL hanging over them. For example, Apple's new Darwin/OS X product utilises code from the FreeBSD kernel, and Apple are keen to have their enhancements folded back in to FreeBSD. 4. It's not (yet) as popular as Linux. Possibly explained by the wealth of Linux books available (necessary, see point 2). Also by the fact that a young Finnish hacker coding up the beginnings of an OS is a more media friendly story than the continuation of a 25 year old project. Linux is getting more press than FreeBSD, and has a larger user base. Available figures tend to show FreeBSD being roughly a year behind Linux in terms of press coverage and the size of the user base. Nevertheless, FreeBSD is used in a number of very visible web sites. Yahoo is one example, Hotmail is another. FreeBSD is also the OS behind ftp.cdrom.com, the Internet's busiest FTP server, which allows 5,000 simultaneous connections, saturating a it's Internet link, and serving over 1 terabyte of files per day -- all using one Intel PC (admittedly with a fairly industrial SCSI subsystem with lots of disks attached). A lot more information about FreeBSD is available at http://www.freebsd.org/, and in particular, http://advocacy.freebsd.org/. So, that's FreeBSD in a nutshell. As a user and supporter of FreeBSD (as well as a "committer", able to "commit" changes to FreeBSD's source code) I am naturally interested in ways in which FreeBSD can be promoted as a business solution. You may be aware that various commercial Linux distributions (including, I believe, Redhat and Caldera) have started to run Linux administration certification courses, in an effort to promote Linux's profile, and to make businesses (and in particular, management) feel more comfortable about employing Linux administrator and/or developers if they could be certified in some way. We have been considering doing something similar on the FreeBSD side for some time, but are hampered by the volunteer nature of the project. While FreeBSD receives a lot of sponsorship from Walnut Creek CD-ROM, and occasional donations from other firms, it is certainly not to the level enjoyed by companies such as Redhat, and so the idea has languished somewhat. Recently, a pointer to the Tekmetrics site was posted on the advocacy mailing list, as a possible avenue to explore. In a nutshell, we don't currently have a testing programme. We do have a large user-base, many of whom would be interested in registering with a testing programme, both as a way of certifying their skills, and also as an additional way of contributing back to the project -- if there are several certification schemes, and they know that spending on one scheme is going to aid the project then they are more likely to choose that. So we feel that there is an opportunity here for the FreeBSD Mall to resell Tekmetrics test. Now, straight away there is a potential to resell the generic Unix administration test. I've taken that test myself (score: 4.46) and there are only a few questions that do not directly apply to FreeBSD. But there is also an opportunity to create what would become the standard for FreeBSD Administrator and/or developer tests. I hope that answers your questions, and look forward to your response. Nik (nik@freebsd.org) -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 16:19:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD1F14CB4 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id QAA01044; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA16619; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:17:58 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23079; Mon, 14 Jun 99 16:17:30 PDT Message-Id: <37658D80.119A93C1@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:17:20 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Bill Swingle , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSDCon '99 References: <199906141957.MAA25429@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Robert A. Bruce" wrote: > > Wes Peters said... > > > >2 - How do I reserve a slip in the Marina? It's gotta be cheaper > >than staying IN the Radisson, and I might as well get in some good > >sailing while I'm there. Do you think my wife will mind me borrowing > >her Land Cruiser for a week? > > Hi Wes, > Information on reserving a berth is available at > http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Parks/marina/marsvc.html Thanks Bob! Are you a sailor, too? I'm thinking that trailering my J/22 out there might just be worth the hassle if I stay for the whole week and get a couple of good sailing days in. I guess I could sponsor a FreeBSD raft-up somewhere, too, if there is a good anchorage nearby. That'd be fun. The First Annual FreeBSD Water Balloon War would fit it quite nicely. Or perhaps a FoF? (Fish of a Fin) ;^) For anyone else who might be interested, the Marina will only hold a slip for 5 days; if you want longer than that, you will have to purchase in advance. Slips run $4.50-$5.10 per foot for a monthly rental, so unless your boat is really big, this shouldn't be a problem. If your boat is really big, you can (by definition) afford a huge slip rental bill. You could probably get some friends to stay with you and at least buy beer, right? Let's get all you FreeBSD bay-area sailors to sail over to the marina and make this a great boating party too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 14 17:58:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C07150BC for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA02099; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA29215; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:57:35 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA28219; Mon, 14 Jun 99 17:57:04 PDT Message-Id: <3765A4E0.617EDC11@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:57:04 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: nclayton@lehman.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests References: <199906141407.KAA26224@firewall1.lehman.com> <19990614203616.A54976@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 03:00:35PM +0100, nclayton@lehman.com wrote: > > In re the discussion last week about the TekMetrics tests; I've just > > got in touch with them to find out how we go about requesting/creating > > a FreeBSD technical test. More information as I get it. > > Right. I've had a follow-up e-mail from Bill Lake, one of their VPs. > > In it, he says; > > > We need to understand the business case for the development. We typically > > develop a test for a customer requirement for about $20,000 - $40,000 USD > > depending on the type of test. All of our tests are computer adaptive, which > > requires a large test question set. This allows the tests to be delivered > > securely over the internet, and makes them rapid and accurate. > > > > Assuming the test is a "standard" type of test, we could develop it and > > validate it in 8-10 weeks. > > > > We would be glad to establilsh a reseller relationship in which you can sell > > this and other tekmetrics tests and would pay you a commission. > > > > I don't know much about your organization- are you in a position to invest > > in the development of the test? Would you want us to integrate into your > > site so it appears to be a part of your content? What demand for this > > product can you forcast? Would you consider bundling a test-prep package, > > provided by tekmetrics.com with the FreeBSD? > > First off, does anyone want to follow this up before I do? He's said > he'd prefer to discuss this on the phone, but this is a little tricky > with me being in the UK and them in the US. If you do, give me a shout. > > Either way, I'm going to reply with some information about FreeBSD, how > we discovered the Tekmetrics site, noticing the Linux test, the increase > in take-up of FreeBSD, and so on, and see where we go from there. You might want to point out that we are, as a group, capable of and willing to "customize" their test(s) for them. In general, rewriting any specific test is NOT necessary, just making sure it asks the questions and records the correct answer in a way that completely agrees with FreeBSD usage. As far as their "large test question set" goes, I don't believe it, at least not for the tests I've taken. I got called away in the middle of two of them - UNIX Programmer and UNIX System Administrator, and had to re-run the tests, and they came up with roughly the same questions in a different order, with the answers presented in different order as well. I'd be surprised if their 40-question tests have a pool of more than 50 questions. Customizing 50 or so questions for FreeBSD programming and sysadmin should be a pretty straightforward task, don't you think? I also think FreeBSD Mall is an ideal clearing house for reselling their tests, if their partnering procedures aren't too difficult to deal with. The web information makes it seem pretty straightforward. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 0:55:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6B514EE4; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:55:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA05477; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:55:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Nik Clayton Cc: core@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:01:34 BST." <19990615000134.A53585@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:55:34 +0200 Message-ID: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't belive in "Certified Doughnut Handler" kind of certifications, they're mostly bogus, in a few select cases they're really bogus. I don't like the concept that the FreeBSD project should be backing such certification or test in any way. This may sound harsh, but I think I have some valid reasons: 1. It is very hard to make such a test fair on a global scale. (I did poorly on the "Dilbert" test: I live in Denmark and can't see the Dilbert TV series.) 2. The "3 minute deadline" is vastly unfair to people who don't have a good command of english. Are we going to offer spanish, japanese, italian, danish, swedish, hebrew and swahili versions as well ? 3. Do we know what exact quality we're trying to measure here ? Most of the Novell/M$ certified people I've met have merely shown that they're good at looking things up, not that they're imaginative and good at troubleshooting. If somebody wants to make such a certification, sure, good, fine, but don't involve the FreeBSD project in it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 1:38:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from firewall2.lehman.com (firewall2.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BF414DC8 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 01:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nclayton@lehman.com) Received: from relay.lehman.com by firewall2.lehman.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA25946; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:38:23 -0400 (EDT) From: nclayton@lehman.com Received: from cmgrelay1.messaging-svcs.lehman.com by relay.lehman.com (4.1/LB-0.6) id AA17538; Tue, 15 Jun 99 04:37:51 EDT Received: from lonmailhost.lehman.com by cmgrelay1.messaging-svcs.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA12104; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lonmailhost.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id JAA08929; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:37:45 +0100 Message-Id: <19990615093744.C22307@lehman.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:37:44 +0100 To: Wes Peters , Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests References: <199906141407.KAA26224@firewall1.lehman.com> <19990614203616.A54976@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <199906150228.DAA11197@lonmailhost.lehman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199906150228.DAA11197@lonmailhost.lehman.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 06:57:04PM -0600 Organization: Lehman Brothers Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 06:57:04PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > You might want to point out that we are, as a group, capable of and > willing to "customize" their test(s) for them. In general, rewriting > any specific test is NOT necessary, just making sure it asks the > questions and records the correct answer in a way that completely > agrees with FreeBSD usage. I'll point this out. I suspect that they have their own Q&A procedure that probably involves them hiring someone to write the test themselves. That way they keep the 'knowledge' of the tests in house, and can satisfy themselves that the tests are accurate. Since the accuracy of the tests determine their credibility, I'd imagine they would be (understandably) nervous of putting their name to a test that they didn't write themselves. But I'll mention it anyway. N -- --+==[ Systems Administrator, Year 2000 Test Lab, Lehman Brothers, Inc. ]==+-- --+==[ 1 Broadgate, London, EC2M 7HA 0171-601-0011 x5514 ]==+-- --+==[ Year 2000 Testing: It's about time. . . ]==+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 2:38:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A5514D8C; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA31513; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:38:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Nik Clayton Cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests References: <19990615000134.A53585@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Jun 1999 11:38:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: Nik Clayton's message of "Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:01:34 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton writes: > [...] FreeBSD is also the OS behind > ftp.cdrom.com, the Internet's busiest FTP server, which allows 5,000 > simultaneous connections [...] Actually, it's 6,000 simultaneous connections. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 2:40: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0487F15038; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA31486; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:36:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Nik Clayton , core@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests References: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Jun 1999 11:36:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Poul-Henning Kamp's message of "Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:55:34 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > 1. It is very hard to make such a test fair on a global scale. > (I did poorly on the "Dilbert" test: I live in Denmark and > can't see the Dilbert TV series.) Dilbert is not a TV series. It's a cartoon, and you can read it on the web any time you like. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 2:42:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB09115038; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA05826; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:42:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Nik Clayton , core@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Jun 1999 11:36:52 +0200." Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:42:02 +0200 Message-ID: <5824.929439722@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >> 1. It is very hard to make such a test fair on a global scale. >> (I did poorly on the "Dilbert" test: I live in Denmark and >> can't see the Dilbert TV series.) > >Dilbert is not a TV series. It's a cartoon, and you can read it on the >web any time you like. You're wrong, it is. (You didn't expect the americans to be able to be content with a cartoon did you ? Just wait, it'll only be a matter of time before the unix manual pages will be a saturday morning cartoon!) Check the Dilbert homepage if you don't belive me. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 3:58:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from degnet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC3A14C3B for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (login43.intranet.degnet.de [172.24.1.52]) by degnet.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA13067 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:56:45 +0200 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01618 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:56:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199906151056.MAA01618@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:55:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Users balk at German state's deal with Microsoft To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9906/14/ms.germany.idg/ "A group of open-source software users has asked the state's governor, Wolfgang Clement, to halt a sponsorship agreement it signed with the American software giant until the government can clarify why it chose Microsoft to help sponsor the new center. ... Members of the non-profit organization use many different systems, but the operating systems Linux and FreeBSD conform most closely to its values, Pilch said. ... " If this was already posted, sorry for the bandwidth. -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 6:25:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4F91553D for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA267377566; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 05:06:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 05:06:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests In-Reply-To: <5824.929439722@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >Dilbert is not a TV series. It's a cartoon, and you can read it on the > >web any time you like. > > You're wrong, it is. (You didn't expect the americans to be able to > be content with a cartoon did you ? Just wait, it'll only be a matter > of time before the unix manual pages will be a saturday morning cartoon!) > > Check the Dilbert homepage if you don't belive me. Might I add it's only a so-so TV show, when compared to the cartoon. :> You're not missing much. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 9:24:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from holmes.infopro.spb.su (holmes.infopro.spb.su [195.242.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A2514D8D for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:24:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from radek.zitek@bigfoot.com) Received: from barrymore.peterlink.ru (barrymore.peterlink.ru [195.242.2.8]) by holmes.infopro.spb.su (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11112 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:23:59 +0400 (MSD) Received: from bigfoot.com (spb-2-238.dialup.peterlink.ru [195.242.11.238]) by barrymore.peterlink.ru (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11691 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:23:58 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <37667D39.A7D9DEA3@bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:20:09 +0400 From: Radek Zitek Reply-To: radek.zitek@bigfoot.com Organization: littlenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: (no subject) References: <5824.929439722@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 10:13:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A6515408; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from jdp2.pdev.sco.com (jdp2.pdev.sco.COM [132.147.193.230]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09005; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by jdp2.pdev.sco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA00477; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Polstra & Co., Inc. From: John Polstra To: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests Cc: webmaster@freebsdmall.com, advocacy@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org, Nik Clayton Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 15-Jun-99 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > I don't belive in "Certified Doughnut Handler" kind of certifications, > they're mostly bogus, in a few select cases they're really bogus. > > I don't like the concept that the FreeBSD project should be backing > such certification or test in any way. I agree. John --- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." -- H. L. Mencken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 12:17:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.4.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139CA15649; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.4.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16693; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906151917.PAA16693@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: webmaster@freebsdmall.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, Nik Clayton Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:17:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests and FreeBSD Certification Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org In-reply-to: References: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Certification, once standardized, in my humble opinion, in addition to instilling in the person doing hiring or contracting for services, confidence in the person he/she may be thinking of using, certification gives the person holding that certification a better chance to get that job or contract. I constantly look for jobs here and in the news paper, in at least 8/10 cases, certification of some type is required. As I was just looking for career oriented schools, I found a few that offered Sun and Cisco certification. Unfortunately they were more designed for the *already* employed IT person. As anyone in the FreeBSD community knows, FreeBSD is an outstanding OS. Unfortunately major companies look like they are going or leaning towards a Linux Distribution. My personal feeling is that the FreeBSD community (maybe its core team) should come up with some sort of FreeBSD certification. For one thing, it would then have that (for a lack of better words and not to undercut FreeBSD or its designers) professional and corporate image that it needs. When I say "needs", I am only meaning that in the sense that large corps use systems comparable to FreeBSD and for a large part do not know of the existence of FreeBSD. My g/f is v.p. of one of Canada's largest private financial institutions. I had talked to one of the system administrators. He never heard of FreeBSD, however he did hear of linux. He comments were that Linux is a great unix-like toy for kids. Great for kids doing their anger trips. Personally I have no comment on linux as I don't use it. But I do know some of the great people tied in with FreeBSD like, Greg Lehey and Jordan Hubbard. Well this is too long winded. Sorry about that. To whom this does concern, please develop a certification for FreeBSD. It will pay off big time for both, FreeBSD and the person that gets certified by FreeBSD as a competent ..maybe "systems administrator or Network administrator" Regards to all, Lanny > On 15-Jun-99 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > I don't belive in "Certified Doughnut Handler" kind of certifications, > > they're mostly bogus, in a few select cases they're really bogus. > > > > I don't like the concept that the FreeBSD project should be backing > > such certification or test in any way. > > I agree. > > John > --- > John Polstra jdp@polstra.com > John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA > "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." > -- H. L. Mencken > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 16: 2:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9763914C35; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA70897; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:48:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:48:14 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Nik Clayton , core@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org, webmaster@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests Message-ID: <19990615234814.A70360@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990615000134.A53585@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Tue, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:55:34AM +0200 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:55:34AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > This may sound harsh, but I think I have some valid reasons: > > 1. It is very hard to make such a test fair on a global scale. > (I did poorly on the "Dilbert" test: I live in Denmark and > can't see the Dilbert TV series.) Doesn't apply. FreeBSD is global. > 2. The "3 minute deadline" is vastly unfair to people who don't > have a good command of english. Are we going to offer spanish, > japanese, italian, danish, swedish, hebrew and swahili versions > as well ? So we start on an English test first, and then let the combined forces of the FDP translation teams turn it into Japanese, Spanish, French, Chinese, ... (Hungarian could well be next on the list). > 3. Do we know what exact quality we're trying to measure here ? > Most of the Novell/M$ certified people I've met have merely > shown that they're good at looking things up, not that they're > imaginative and good at troubleshooting. That's the kicker. I stress again that this would be resold through the Mall rather than through FreeBSD.org -- how big is the separation between those two entities anyway? N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 15 17:21:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C6B14E97; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA15309; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA26550; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:19:15 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA05827; Tue, 15 Jun 99 17:18:36 PDT Message-Id: <3766ED56.3DE1B63@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:18:30 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lnb@cybertouch.org Cc: webmaster@freebsdmall.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests and FreeBSD Certification References: <5475.929433334@critter.freebsd.dk> <199906151917.PAA16693@freedom.cybertouch.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lanny Baron wrote: > > Certification, once standardized, in my humble opinion, in addition > to instilling in the person doing hiring or contracting for services, > confidence in the person he/she may be thinking of using, > certification gives the person holding that certification a better > chance to get that job or contract. > > I constantly look for jobs here and in the news paper, in at least > 8/10 cases, certification of some type is required. Most of the employers who are looking for some sort of certification are doing so because they have no capability of evaluating employees on their own. Offer them practically anything and they'll probably bite, because they don't know better. I was the one who called for advocates to visit the tekmetrics site, because I wanted to get a feeling for how the rest of the group felt about their tests in general. I didn't post my concerns because I did not want to taint the opinions of the rest of the group, but since we've now gone a week or so, I'll state my piece and shut up. 1) The Tekmetrics tests are NOT very comprehensive. They are not really intended to be. They aspire to be the equivalent of a screening test an employer might throw up to sort out 1,000 applicants for a sysadmin job down to 10 or 20 that *might* be qualified. 2) The test methodology is easily broken. It would be simple to record the questions given in a particular test, and I suspect you could record a large subset of the total questions in any test in just a few tries. 3) Yes, a certification program might be a "good" thing to have as an assurance to stuffed suits that FreeBSD is a real operating system, with real people using it. Let's face it, the entire tech school industry (in the USA at least) is a pacifier for suits who don't know any better, and churn out thousands of certified, know-nothing and do-nothing boneheads every year, but corporations and especially the gov't departments of welfare-as-we-will-come-to-know-it have swallowed their bait hook, line, and sinker. The whole business has enough stench attached to it we may not want to associate ourselves with it. Eventually the suits are going to wise up to the quality of people turned out by the CNE/MCSE/etc programs and start blaming everyone remotely associated with them for their own failures. OK, I'm done raining on the FreeBSD-Advocacy parade. Please return to our usual mutterings. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 6:20:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.4.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A3F1549B; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:20:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.4.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26609; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906161320.JAA26609@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: webmaster@freebsdmall.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, Nik Clayton Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:20:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Tekmetrics tests and FreeBSD Certification Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org In-reply-to: <3766ED56.3DE1B63@softweyr.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Most of the employers who are looking for some sort of certification > are doing so because they have no capability of evaluating employees > on their own. Offer them practically anything and they'll probably > bite, because they don't know better. > Well I can confidently say, that after sending out more than 100 resume's that the only thing received back was "thank you, your resume will be kept on file for 6 months". On the other hand, I personally know a few junior sys admins in financial companies that went to career training centers that got their jobs from those schools. > I was the one who called for advocates to visit the tekmetrics site, > because I wanted to get a feeling for how the rest of the group felt > about their tests in general. I didn't post my concerns because I > did not want to taint the opinions of the rest of the group, but since > we've now gone a week or so, I'll state my piece and shut up. > > 1) The Tekmetrics tests are NOT very comprehensive. They are not > really intended to be. They aspire to be the equivalent of a > screening test an employer might throw up to sort out 1,000 applicants > for a sysadmin job down to 10 or 20 that *might* be qualified. > You are talking about one place that I know nothing about. I am talking about a training school that gives a diploma, and gets you ready (assuming you work your butt off) for msce and oracle (networking) certification. The major employers go to Universities and these higher level private institutions for hiring. As a good friend of mine who is one of the top people in IBM's firewall division told me, that he would only hire a university grad or a person with a lot of experience. Today with so many people who claim they are experts, employers are smart to demand some sort of qualification. I know of some people on the net that have an icredible amount of unix knowledge that can't get jobs in IT. If you were a person who does the hiring for companies (human resources) and knew sweet f.a. about computers, who would you hire? The person that says I ran an ISP for 5 years (with no degree or certification) or a person that presents a degree from a university or certification from recognized companies (i.e. Oracle and hopefully FreeBSD)? > 2) The test methodology is easily broken. It would be simple to record > the questions given in a particular test, and I suspect you could > record a large subset of the total questions in any test in just a > few tries. > > 3) Yes, a certification program might be a "good" thing to have as > an assurance to stuffed suits that FreeBSD is a real operating system, > with real people using it. Let's face it, the entire tech school > industry (in the USA at least) is a pacifier for suits who don't know > any better, and churn out thousands of certified, know-nothing and > do-nothing boneheads every year, but corporations and especially the > gov't departments of welfare-as-we-will-come-to-know-it have swallowed > their bait hook, line, and sinker. The whole business has enough stench > attached to it we may not want to associate ourselves with it. Eventually > the suits are going to wise up to the quality of people turned out by > the CNE/MCSE/etc programs and start blaming everyone remotely associated > with them for their own failures. > You talk about welfare. How about if I tell you that here in Ontario, if you go to our gov't for a student loan, to get that certificate, to be able to get a job. That the welfare department will cut you off instantly claiming, the loan for the school is classified as "income" and therefore disentitles you to any welfare benefits. In as much as "bone-heads" are concerned, I agree. It was only a month ago when I approached the "system administrator" at my chartered accountants office (in the U.S. they call it a certified public accountant) and showed the person how much they could save with a FreeBSD/Samba box. I let him use webmin on my box via the net and Swat (samba's web admin program). The person said it was "very cool" but after checking with the company that works with (the person still calls himself the system admin) company that does the tech stuff on the NT system they use, did not know FreeBSD and Samba, and never heard of either. I said to him, "I thought you are the system admin" he replied "I am, but this company fixes things when they go wrong." I should have asked how he got that "system admin" job. Lanny > OK, I'm done raining on the FreeBSD-Advocacy parade. Please return to > our usual mutterings. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 15:54:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E291506B; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p6es09a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.217.111] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10uOZd-0000e4-00; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:54:25 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id XAA01114; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:52:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:52:03 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Len Conrad Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) Message-ID: <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> References: <3767E1B4.8F4A5288@BitSmart.com> <4.2.0.56.19990616202405.01c9f050@go2france.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.56.19990616202405.01c9f050@go2france.com>; from Len Conrad on Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:30:26PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Len Conrad wrote: > I see where the "*nix effect" has landed FreeBSD on the > wwww.serverwatch.com Top 15 Downloads! > > http://serverwatch.internet.com/top15.html > Did you read their review of it? "FreeBSD 3.2 -- Is it the perfect Internet server operating system? As close as it comes." "Why is FreeBSD such a popular choice for industrial-grade Web serving, even though it's an operating system built to run on Intel-based PCs? Bottom line? It's because FreeBSD is known for having one of the fastest TCP/IP stacks in the operating-system world." "FreeBSD combines a full set of open-source tools (like Apache) with a solid base to provide the best pure Web serving on the Internet." Can we get get a link to it at http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/press.html ? > Len > > ============= > > > >www.linuxchix.org runs off of my site...again, FreeBSD... -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 16:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-98.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA2014E48 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18544; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:40:15 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:40:15 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: Mark Ovens Cc: Len Conrad , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) Message-ID: <19990617094014.A18451@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <3767E1B4.8F4A5288@BitSmart.com> <4.2.0.56.19990616202405.01c9f050@go2france.com> <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [-questions trimmed from Cc list] On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 at 23:52:03 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Len Conrad wrote: > > I see where the "*nix effect" has landed FreeBSD on the > > wwww.serverwatch.com Top 15 Downloads! > > > > http://serverwatch.internet.com/top15.html > > > > Did you read their review of it? > [snip..] > Can we get get a link to it at > http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/press.html ? Sure. Btw, I know there haven't been any updates done to the site in quite a while.. I've been redoing the site, and should have it up either this weekend or early next week. On another note, we still need more php and perl coders for the bits that will tie into the db back-end. If anyone wants to help out, let me know. -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 20:21:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63BAF14EE0 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@iquest.net) Received: (qmail 28795 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1999 03:21:08 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO iquest.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1999 03:21:08 -0000 Message-ID: <376869A2.E3F18B2B@iquest.net> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:21:06 -0500 From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: jdyson@liberate.com Organization: NCI X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: CNN - Apple warms up to open source community - June 16, 1999 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9906/16/apple.idg/ Gang, It is SO NICE to see FreeBSD mentioned in the media (esp on CNN!!!) LOTS of Linux mention, and finally FreeBSD. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 21:16:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D0214EB8; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20118; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:11:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Mark Ovens Cc: Len Conrad , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) In-Reply-To: <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On a semi-related note, Business 2.0 had a little article on Y2K stuff in their June issue... "Thomas Edwards isn't worried about Y2K. Why should be be? The Sync, a Laurel, MD.-based Internet broadcasting company he founded, likely won't notice the date change. The Sync's array of FreeBSD Unix servers will survive New Year's eve with no problems, Edwards predicts. "I don't think it's a major problem. You should just back up everything," he says. On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Len Conrad wrote: > > I see where the "*nix effect" has landed FreeBSD on the > > wwww.serverwatch.com Top 15 Downloads! > > > > http://serverwatch.internet.com/top15.html > > > > Did you read their review of it? > > "FreeBSD 3.2 -- Is it the perfect Internet server operating > system? As close as it comes." > > "Why is FreeBSD such a popular choice for industrial-grade > Web serving, even though it's an operating system built to > run on Intel-based PCs? Bottom line? It's because FreeBSD > is known for having one of the fastest TCP/IP stacks in > the operating-system world." > > > "FreeBSD combines a full set of open-source tools (like > Apache) with a solid base to provide the best pure Web > serving on the Internet." > > Can we get get a link to it at > http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/press.html ? > > > Len > > > > ============= > > > > > > >www.linuxchix.org runs off of my site...again, FreeBSD... > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 16 21:51:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0B514EB8 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id OAA03101; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:20:31 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA02553; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:21:38 +0930 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:21:38 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: jdyson@liberate.com Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CNN - Apple warms up to open source community - June 16, 1999 In-Reply-To: <376869A2.E3F18B2B@iquest.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, John S. Dyson wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9906/16/apple.idg/ > > Gang, > It is SO NICE to see FreeBSD mentioned in the > media (esp on CNN!!!) LOTS of Linux mention, > and finally FreeBSD. Agreed. They did call it FreeBSD 4.4, though :-) I especially liked the simple discussion of the merits of the BSD license, which is rare in the mainstream media. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 17 3:25:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA78F150C6 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 03:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:23:15 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id NB6F46YY; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:15:20 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10uZL1-000D6s-00; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:24:03 +0100 To: advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: [uk advocacy] Article in Network Week X-Mailer: nmh-1.0 Organization: Palmer & Harvey McLane Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:24:03 +0100 From: Dom Mitchell Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's an introductory article entitled "Yes! There is intelligent life beyond Linux" (!) in this weeks Network Week. The author (David Cartwright) is quite complimentary towards FreeBSD. He explains the differences between stable and current versions. "Finally, release 4.0 is described (fairly honestly) by the makers as 'bleeding edge' and is mainly for people with too much time on their hands who like playing with new toys." Yes, I know that 4.0 isn't a release. He will soon! He also finds out about the ports. "In terms of applications, the word 'shedloads' springs to mind." In the final paragraph, he invites comments about whether you chose Linux over FreeBSD or vice versa and why. He can be mailed at dsc@cmp.com (oh to have an email address that short again!). Please feel free to let him know why you think FreeBSD is a good thing (particularly why it improves on Linux) for you. I think I shall extol the joys of cvsup and a truely integrated system to him... Someone else might like to explain how you can run all your Linux binary only apps under our excellent emulation. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "Always think very hard before messing with TCP. And then don't." -- MC -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 17 5:50:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07201553A for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-035.thuntek.net [207.66.52.35]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA04392; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 06:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3768EE1A.443F2735@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 06:46:18 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdyson@liberate.com Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CNN - Apple warms up to open source community - June 16, 1999 References: <376869A2.E3F18B2B@iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It appears that they researched this on their own. This does not appear to be based on my press release on the same subject. :-( Even so, it's a pretty powerful yank in our direction!!! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 17 8:27: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67B614F26; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA57944; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:28:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:28:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: Mark Ovens , Len Conrad , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Tani Hosokawa wrote: > On a semi-related note, Business 2.0 had a little article on Y2K stuff > in their June issue... > > "Thomas Edwards isn't worried about Y2K. Why should be be? The Sync, a > Laurel, MD.-based Internet broadcasting company he founded, likely won't > notice the date change. The Sync's array of FreeBSD Unix servers will > survive New Year's eve with no problems, Edwards predicts. "I don't think > it's a major problem. You should just back up everything," he says. > > On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Len Conrad wrote: > > > I see where the "*nix effect" has landed FreeBSD on the > > > wwww.serverwatch.com Top 15 Downloads! > > > > > > http://serverwatch.internet.com/top15.html > > > > > > > Did you read their review of it? Its great, except for two little nits where they mention the licencing. Once on page two where they state that "it requires source distribution", and on page 3 where they place the "less restrictive" license as a "Con" instead of a "Pro". I fired off a nice message to them pointing this out, so maybe they'll correct them. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 17 12: 4:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E521914F5B for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA12860; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA00964; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:03:35 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([198.206.184.77]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA05624; Thu, 17 Jun 99 12:03:29 PDT Message-Id: <37694681.5CF528CD@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:03:29 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jim@blues.ghis.net Cc: Mark Ovens , Len Conrad , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) References: <3767E1B4.8F4A5288@BitSmart.com> <4.2.0.56.19990616202405.01c9f050@go2france.com> <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> <19990617094014.A18451@blues.ghis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Mock wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 at 23:52:03 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Can we get get a link to it at > > http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/press.html ? > > Sure. Btw, I know there haven't been any updates done to the site in > quite a while.. I've been redoing the site, and should have it up > either this weekend or early next week. I'd like to point out once again that the name of that URL should be changed from "ammunition" to "collateral". Marketing materials are called "collateral" in business throughout the USA, at the least. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 17 16: 5:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-64.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2C41552D for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23266; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:02:19 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:02:17 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) Message-ID: <19990618090217.C23122@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <3767E1B4.8F4A5288@BitSmart.com> <4.2.0.56.19990616202405.01c9f050@go2france.com> <19990616235203.F255@marder-1> <19990617094014.A18451@blues.ghis.net> <37694681.5CF528CD@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <37694681.5CF528CD@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 at 13:03:29 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Jim Mock wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 at 23:52:03 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > > Can we get get a link to it at > > > http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/press.html ? > > > > Sure. Btw, I know there haven't been any updates done to the > > site in quite a while.. I've been redoing the site, and should > > have it up either this weekend or early next week. > > I'd like to point out once again that the name of that URL should > be changed from "ammunition" to "collateral". Marketing materials > are called "collateral" in business throughout the USA, at the > least. This has been changed in the new version of the site. I could have it up as early as tonight (without the php bits) and the semi-automated 'In the Press' and user groups sections (using php) will be following shortly. -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 18 4:36: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2075314F6F; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA49781; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:35:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Chris Dillon Cc: Tani Hosokawa , Mark Ovens , Len Conrad , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jun 1999 13:35:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Dillon's message of "Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:28:01 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Dillon writes: > Its great, except for two little nits where they mention the > licencing. Once on page two where they state that "it requires source > distribution", and on page 3 where they place the "less restrictive" > license as a "Con" instead of a "Pro". I fired off a nice message to > them pointing this out, so maybe they'll correct them. Make sure to point out that FreeBSD's ability to run Linux software bears no relation to iBCS. FreeBSD can run most native Linux software as fast as, and sometimes faster than, Linux itself. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 18 8:21:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A691547D for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA64044; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:22:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:22:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amusing: LinuxCountry site runs on FreeBSD :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Jun 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Chris Dillon writes: > > Its great, except for two little nits where they mention the > > licencing. Once on page two where they state that "it requires source > > distribution", and on page 3 where they place the "less restrictive" > > license as a "Con" instead of a "Pro". I fired off a nice message to > > them pointing this out, so maybe they'll correct them. > > Make sure to point out that FreeBSD's ability to run Linux software > bears no relation to iBCS. FreeBSD can run most native Linux software > as fast as, and sometimes faster than, Linux itself. I sent that message off before I even posted to the list, so someone else is quite welcome to mention the iBCS thing. Chances are, someone already has. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 18 19:25:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-23.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523CE14E17 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA57049 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:25:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 It's a rather interesting review, one of the least lopsided comparisons I've seen in a while... - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 19 14:34:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2109114BE9 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 22188 invoked by alias); 19 Jun 1999 21:34:47 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 22145 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 1999 21:34:46 -0000 Received: from edsl170.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.175.170) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1999 21:34:46 -0000 Message-ID: <376C0CF7.EE24F32E@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:34:47 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Zepeda wrote: > > http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 Hmm... The ampersand in the URL got replaced with an HTML tag. Using Internet Exploder? The correct URL is: http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 19 17:45:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-45.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF86314FA3 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA15351; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:45:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL In-Reply-To: <376C0CF7.EE24F32E@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > > http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 > > Hmm... The ampersand in the URL got replaced with an HTML tag. Using > Internet Exploder? The correct URL is: What's Internet Exploder? Something invented by those who haven't completed high school? Or do you purposely not spell things correctly? FWIW, I was using Lynx, but any browser should recognize & as &. What were you using? Netscape Navigator? Hooray for you. > http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 19 18:17:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from beach.silcom.com (beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E71153A9 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from smarter.than.nu (pm0-34.vpop1.avtel.net [207.71.237.34]) by beach.silcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA605EE; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:17:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/199906/gplbsd&page=1 > > > > Hmm... The ampersand in the URL got replaced with an HTML tag. Using > > Internet Exploder? The correct URL is: > > What's Internet Exploder? Something invented by those who haven't > completed high school? Or do you purposely not spell things correctly? Rumor has it that it's commonly referred to by as that name and as "Internet Exploiter" within Microsoft. > FWIW, I was using Lynx, but any browser should recognize & as &. What > were you using? Netscape Navigator? Hooray for you. Not in URLs, it shouldn't. "&"->"&" is a HTML substitution, not an HTTP one. -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 19 18:46:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-45.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0EF14BE5 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA81713; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: "Brian W. Buchanan" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Brian W. Buchanan wrote: > Rumor has it that it's commonly referred to by as that name and > as "Internet Exploiter" within Microsoft. Ahh, I thought that was just amongst our knuckle dragging friends :) > > FWIW, I was using Lynx, but any browser should recognize & as &. What > > were you using? Netscape Navigator? Hooray for you. > > Not in URLs, it shouldn't. "&"->"&" is a HTML substitution, not an > HTTP one. Ehm, URIs are not an HTTP thing. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 19 20:42:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B14214CE5 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 22518 invoked by alias); 20 Jun 1999 03:42:50 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 22504 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jun 1999 03:42:50 -0000 Received: from edsl170.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.175.170) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 20 Jun 1999 03:42:50 -0000 Message-ID: <376C633B.7CCBDD2D@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:42:51 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 32bitsOnline comparison of BSD v. GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Hmm... The ampersand in the URL got replaced with an HTML tag. Using >> Internet Exploder? The correct URL is: > > What's Internet Exploder? Something invented by those who haven't > completed high school? Or do you purposely not spell things correctly? > > FWIW, I was using Lynx, but any browser should recognize & as &. What > were you using? Netscape Navigator? Hooray for you. Internet Exploder is a derogatory name for MS's web browser (Exploiter is another one), known for munging addresses by excessive use of HTML encoding. Netscape didn't catch the HTML substitution for three reasons: 1) Proper URLs are read, passed, and written as plain text, there's no valid reason for there to be any HTML in them. 2) You sent a plain text e-mail, HTML decoding is disabled by definition. 3) The ampersand and semicolon characters are valid in arguements passed to CGIs. If your browser decoded the HTML tag in the URL, then I'd say it's broken. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message