From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 2:51:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39BD15027 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 02:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA66443 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:50:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:50:24 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Advocacy web site dead? Message-ID: <19990801105024.A66146@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How do, Is the advocacy web site (advocacy.freebsd.org) dead? Pages like the "In the Press" section don't seem to have been updated since May. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 3:26:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A3D14C31; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 03:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA19130; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:54:20 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id TAA55067; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:54:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:54:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocacy web site dead? Message-ID: <19990801195419.B64532@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990801105024.A66146@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990801105024.A66146@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 10:50:24AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 1 August 1999 at 10:50:24 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > How do, > > Is the advocacy web site (advocacy.freebsd.org) dead? > > Pages like the "In the Press" section don't seem to have been updated > since May. I've skimmed through a bit of it, and I can only share your opinion. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 3:42:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc2-94.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E63514E5E; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 03:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA94762; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:41:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:41:43 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, tommy@cfi.net Subject: Re: Advocacy web site dead? Message-ID: <19990801204143.A94687@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <19990801105024.A66146@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990801105024.A66146@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 at 10:50:24 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > How do, > > Is the advocacy web site (advocacy.freebsd.org) dead? No, not yet. > Pages like the "In the Press" section don't seem to have been > updated since May. Long story, and I'll spare the gory details. Here's a basic summary of what's gone down.. I'd been working on a new layout for the site, which I had mostly finished. I also found someone willing to handle the db backend and the perl and php to tie into. We started progressing nicely.. (this was about a month and a half ago.. Jordan took a look at it and liked it) and we were getting ready to put it up live. In the mean time, both Tommy and myself seemed to get busy with other things, and it sort of took a backburner. Basically, here's where things stand now.. * The new layout is finished for the most part and is ready to go live. * The php/perl/MySQL stuff has been started on, but isn't done yet. I have no ETA as to when it will be. Tommy's in the process of switching jobs at the moment and hasn't had much time to do anything as of late. If anyone can and is willing to lend a hand, drop him a line (he's Cc'd on this message), or email coders@advocacy.FreeBSD.org so he can bring you up to speed on where he's at and go from there. I don't particularly want to bring the HTML bits up until the whole thing is ready go for various reasons, the main one being most of the functionality of the site will be non-existent if the backend isn't with it. Anyway, I apologize for the lack of updates and for sort of ignoring it for the past few weeks/months. If anyone wants to help Tommy out with the backend part of the site, get in touch with him, and I guess we'll go from there. - Jim -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 10:28:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A7E14D46 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Sun, 01 Aug 1999 18:27:29 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDZV5; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:27:27 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11AzOU-0004AL-00; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:27:30 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:27:29 +0100 To: Matt Curtin Cc: Joel Sutton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Victorias FreeBSD User Group Subject: Re: FreeBSD Powerpoint Presentation Message-Id: <19990801182729.B15939@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Matt Curtin on Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 06:38:39PM -0400 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 06:38:39PM -0400, Matt Curtin wrote: > >>>>> On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:14:51 +1000 (EST), > Joel Sutton said: > > Joel> http://www.bbcon.com.au/freebsd.ppt > > *boggle*. (I see that you've got a web version up now. Thanks!) > > (This is almost as bad as SAMS's "Unix Unleashed, Internet Edition" > being written in Word, with Jordan and I being the only non-Word-using > holdouts. On the other hand, this is advocacy, and one must speak the > native language of the proles if one wishes to address them in a way > that makes them feel most comfortable... Compare 1Cor9:22. :-) *sigh*. Such a common and annoying problem... mswordview in the ports is quite useful, but it's only a start... -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 18:29:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcon.com.au (firewall.bbcon.com.au [203.28.19.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3776414C38 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from office.bbcon.com.au (stargate [10.0.0.1]) by bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA00748; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:32:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by office.bbcon.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01607; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:30:18 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:30:17 +1000 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Victorias FreeBSD User Group Subject: Re: FreeBSD Powerpoint Presentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Joel Sutton wrote: > > > Can StarOffice, ApplixWare or Wordperfect import a PowerPoint97 > > presentation? > > Why not use KOffice? Primarily because Windows 95/98/NT users won't have it. However, I do see where you're comming from so this may be the next stage of this little project for me. Perhaps a KOffice presentation should have more technical information? I was thinking that a majority of the intended audience will already have some flavour of UNIX installed and have, at least, some idea of some of the issues... ??? Cheers, Joel... PS: My apologies to anyone who has tried to view the presentation during the last 12-24 hours. I have been having trouble with my web server but, with the assistance of a very large axe, I have corrected the problem. :-) --- Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting Phone: (0409) 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Aug 1 23:52:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822A714F8E for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id QAA28203; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:51:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028158; Mon, 2 Aug 99 16:51:04 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19503; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:51:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12153; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:51:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18661; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:51:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199908020651.QAA18661@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: <77276D633FA.AAA9A@po03.wxs.nl> In-Reply-To: <77276D633FA.AAA9A@po03.wxs.nl> from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai at "Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:10:18 +0200" Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:51:02 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 26th July 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >read this form of selfstyled arrogance: > >http://www.telly.org/86open/ > >The common binary is Linux ELF *bwerk* > >Wonder who ever gave that idea body..? We must see things very differently. I read this and it is far from arrogant. Indeed, it is rather selfless, admitting that the world has changed enough to make their organisation redundant, and their goal either achieved through external forces, or unnecessary, depending on how you look at it. It's very much a dispassionate "here are the facts of this situation" message. The lesson in it for us is that we should concentrate even more on Linux Binary Compatibility. Even the stupid bits. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 2:39:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcon.com.au (firewall.bbcon.com.au [203.28.19.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E925B15038 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 02:39:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from office.bbcon.com.au (stargate [10.0.0.1]) by bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA00989; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:42:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by office.bbcon.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02202; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:40:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:40:29 +1000 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: Victorias FreeBSD User Group Subject: FreeBSD gets a mention in Australian MacWorld Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings all, MacWorld's August edition has an article on the new Mac OS X server software. On page 33 we get a quick mention: "The good news is that Apple said its goal was to syncronise Darwin with FreeBSD 3.x (www.freebsd.org), arguably the most popular version of free BSD Unix available. That move would undoubtedly assure Apple a larger community of programmers who could contribute to Darwin." . . "The true measure of success of Apple's open-source strategy, however, will be whether Apple can succeed in making developers care about Darwin the way they care about Linux and FreeBSD today..." -- The Millennium Mac, by Stephan Somogyi - p 29 to 36 It's certainly the last place I expected to find a mention of FreeBSD, but I'm not complaining. ;-) Enjoy, Joel... --- Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting Phone: (0409) 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 3:30:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4C714C2A for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 03:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03675; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 03:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 03:28:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Stephen McKay Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? In-Reply-To: <199908020651.QAA18661@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > It's very much a dispassionate "here are the facts of this situation" > message. The lesson in it for us is that we should concentrate even more > on Linux Binary Compatibility. Even the stupid bits. Call me stupid, but I don't like seeing 'concentrate on' and 'stupid bits' in the same paragraph when referring to the FreeBSD Project... Later, --mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 8:23: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-46-094.guate.net [200.12.46.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EEC1502B for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07947; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:18:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:18:58 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Joel Sutton Cc: Alex Zepeda , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Victorias FreeBSD User Group Subject: Re: FreeBSD Powerpoint Presentation Message-ID: <19990802091858.C7856@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Joel Sutton on Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 11:30:17AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 11:30:17AM +1000, Joel Sutton wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Joel Sutton wrote: > > > > > Can StarOffice, ApplixWare or Wordperfect import a PowerPoint97 > > > presentation? > > > > Why not use KOffice? > > Primarily because Windows 95/98/NT users won't have it. > why not port it? The one thing I dislike about StarOffice imported PowePoint is that I haven't been able to make StarOffice use true type fonts, so the fonts look horrible... anyone knows how? I'll download the ppt later today and see how hard a magicpoint port would be (the cool thing about magicpoint is that the input file is just text). regards, -Oscar -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 9: 9:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gta.com (mailgate.gta.com [199.120.225.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C702C14D66 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lab@gta.com) Received: from gta.com (GTA internal mail system) by gta.com id MAA25724 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:07:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry Baird Message-Id: <199908021607.MAA25724@gta.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Powerpoint Presentation To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:07:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I understand where you are coming from using Powerpoint. But if you decide to do a FreeBSD version, you might want to take a look at MagicPoint in the ports collection. For more information see http://www.mew.org/mgp. Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 10:24:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605C614D49 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07396; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:21:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:21:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Joel Sutton Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Victorias FreeBSD User Group Subject: Re: FreeBSD Powerpoint Presentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Joel Sutton wrote: > For those of you that are "windoze impaired" try: > > http://www.bbcon.com.au/freebsd/ Looks pretty good - I would also mention that FreeBSD makes a good desktop machine (regardless of the fact that we've "ignored" that part of the market). I know you mention workstations, but you might mention desktop as well. > Can StarOffice, ApplixWare or Wordperfect import a PowerPoint97 > presentation? Don't know, but magicpoint is in the ports tree (never used that either - meant to try it but got too busy). Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 20:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360AA14F5B for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id NAA27376; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma027284; Tue, 3 Aug 99 13:44:19 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28406; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06710; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15343; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199908030344.NAA15343@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Stephen McKay , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: In-Reply-To: from Mike Hoskins at "Mon, 02 Aug 1999 03:28:23 -0700" Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:44:11 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 2nd August 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: >On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > >> It's very much a dispassionate "here are the facts of this situation" >> message. The lesson in it for us is that we should concentrate even more >> on Linux Binary Compatibility. Even the stupid bits. > >Call me stupid, but I don't like seeing 'concentrate on' and 'stupid bits' >in the same paragraph when referring to the FreeBSD Project... Yeah, it doesn't fully match my philosophy either. But if you advocate FreeBSD (as in you want to see it take over the world), then Linux ABI compatibility is a priority requirement. Simple as that. If you are not coding new bits for it, you should be testing any Linux binaries you can get your hands on. On the other hand, if you are in it for the intellectual buzz, and don't care if FreeBSD becomes an irrelevant historical footnote, then it matters not. FreeBSD might displace Linux, or it might fail. Who cares if you are having fun? Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 23:33:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F159114C1E for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11BY7h-0001Qj-00; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:32:29 -0600 Message-ID: <37A68D01.507868CF@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:32:33 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Stephen McKay , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Hoskins wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > > > It's very much a dispassionate "here are the facts of this situation" > > message. The lesson in it for us is that we should concentrate even more > > on Linux Binary Compatibility. Even the stupid bits. > > Call me stupid, OK, you're stupid. Hey, wait, you asked for it! ;^) > but I don't like seeing 'concentrate on' and 'stupid bits' > in the same paragraph when referring to the FreeBSD Project... Then you're obviously not one of those clamoring for us to "fix" the floppy tape driver. As has been ground in my face by Terry Lambert more often than I care to remember, implementing Linux binary compatibility can be a treacherous slope, due to some of the questionable architecture decisions on their part. Stupid things like their willingness to put a /proc interface on the entire system lead misguided developers like StarCode to actually USE these interfaces, resulting in software that can't be run on anything but a Linux system, or a system that emulates the god-awful Linus /proc mess. One word leaps immediately to mind: FUGLY. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 2 23:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213031524C for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11BYBi-00020i-00; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:36:38 -0600 Message-ID: <37A68DFA.156FDFD3@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:36:42 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: Mike Hoskins , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: <199908030344.NAA15343@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Monday, 2nd August 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: > > >On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > > > >> It's very much a dispassionate "here are the facts of this situation" > >> message. The lesson in it for us is that we should concentrate even more > >> on Linux Binary Compatibility. Even the stupid bits. > > > >Call me stupid, but I don't like seeing 'concentrate on' and 'stupid bits' > >in the same paragraph when referring to the FreeBSD Project... > > Yeah, it doesn't fully match my philosophy either. But if you advocate > FreeBSD (as in you want to see it take over the world), then Linux ABI > compatibility is a priority requirement. Simple as that. If you are > not coding new bits for it, you should be testing any Linux binaries you > can get your hands on. > > On the other hand, if you are in it for the intellectual buzz, and don't > care if FreeBSD becomes an irrelevant historical footnote, then it matters > not. FreeBSD might displace Linux, or it might fail. Who cares if you are > having fun? Or it might do neither, and continue to have a long and fruitful life. Why is it that so many FreeBSD users define "success" as "replacing XXX" where XXX is variously Windows NT, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MacOS, and even VxWorks for the real freaks in the crowd? Perhaps we have higher goals than any of these, or more narrowly focused goals, and all of the above can continue to exist. FreeBSD worked just fine when we had 100, 1,000, and 1,000,000 users, and doesn't necessarily need to be the OS of choice for every man, woman, child, dog, cat, and iguana on the planet in order to thrive. We'll settle for all of the iguanas, if push comes to shove. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 7:45:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50751506E for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id XAA12692; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:44:41 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37A70034.129154E@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 23:44:04 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: User Friendly Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here we go again... :-) http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99aug/19990803.html -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org - Jordan, God, what's the difference? - God doesn't belong to the -core. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 8: 3:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay.fairheads.co.za (relay.fairheads.com [196.7.124.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82D914F51 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:03:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from johann ([192.168.5.129]) by relay.fairheads.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00509 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:12:37 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <000701beddba$3d205fe0$0300000a@johann> From: "Johann Visagie" To: Subject: Advocacy ammo Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:12:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [I'm not currently subscribed to -advocacy, so please CC me any replies.] To whom should one send more "ammunition" for advocacy.freebsd.org? I've recently come across two interesting things which I think could contribute to the growing list of FreeBSD's successes: www.alltheweb.com is a new search engine by the people who wrote the ftpsearch software which put archie out of business. They claim in a press release that it is by far the world's largest and, according to the Netcraft OS checker, it (or at least the front-end) runs on FreeBSD. And speaking of Netcraft... Apache and Linux are so often mentioned as the one-two knockout punch of the OSS movement. This page may dispel some rumours: http://www.netcraft.co.uk/survey/developers/apache.html -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 10:26:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E281414E4C for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08578; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03004; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03000; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: http://www.windows2000test.com/ and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just saw on Slashdot that Microsoft has placed a Windows 2000 server on the internet and basically said "crack it" and show that NT security is flawed. This might be a chance for someone to place a FreeBSD server on the internet with the message "crack me" on it. I expect a properly configured FreeBSD server to be extremely secure (and moreso that NT). Additionally, it could be a chance to publically show-up the Linux crowd, especially if they decide not to try a similar test. I would do this myself, but I have neither the resources nor expertise. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 11: 9:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63276152EC for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA84035; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:04:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA50982; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:12:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:12:32 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: advocacy@freebsd.org, jim@advocacy.freebsd.org, rob@advocacy.freebsd.org Subject: [mourtazo@covalent.net: Press release] Message-ID: <19990803171232.B47369@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks, This popped up in my inbox. Can anyone work with these people on a release? Cheers, N ----- Forwarded message from Mourtazo Chadyev ----- Delivered-To: nik@freebsd.org From: "Mourtazo Chadyev" To: Subject: Press release Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:46:41 -0500 Importance: Normal Hello, we are Covalent Technologies Inc, the developers of Raven SSL for internet security. Raven SSL currently supported many operating systems including FreeBSD we would be interested in releasing joint press release regarding Raven SSL software for FreeBSD to let users of FreeBSD know that there is a security software available with their system. For further information please feel free to cotact us, should you be interested. We'll provide complete details as we hear from you. Thank you for your help. Mourtazo Chadyev Covalent Technologies, Inc. 1200 "N" Street Ste. 112 Lincoln, NE 68508 402.441.5710 1.800.444.1935 www.covalent.net www.ravenssl.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 11:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAF11510E; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04698; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jim@advocacy.freebsd.org, rob@advocacy.freebsd.org Subject: Re: [mourtazo@covalent.net: Press release] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:12:32 BST." <19990803171232.B47369@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:49:48 -0700 Message-ID: <4694.933706188@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi folks, > > This popped up in my inbox. Can anyone work with these people on a > release? Called them 10 minutes ago. Will do so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 14: 5:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C684150D1 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03992 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from insane@localhost) by lunatic.oneinsane.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA89131 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:04:55 -0700 From: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [mourtazo@covalent.net: Press release] Message-ID: <19990803140455.B80649@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <19990803171232.B47369@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <4694.933706188@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <4694.933706188@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Aug 03, 1999 at 11:49:48AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 3.2-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 2:00PM up 12 days, 22:22, 4 users, load averages: 0.07, 0.13, 0.08 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 03 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard was heard blurting out: > > Hi folks, > > > > This popped up in my inbox. Can anyone work with these people on a > > release? > > Called them 10 minutes ago. Will do so. > > - Jordan > Just FYI, I use there server at work for SSL services. It would be nice to see it somehow have a port configuration system so when it gets installed into FreeBSD that it goes where we expect it to go. Other than that it is quite reliable. TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 16:59:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc2-97.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D021518E for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA85316 for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:59:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:59:20 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks, Just a note to let everyone know that I've just talked with Jordan and we both have agreed that since the advocacy web site has gotten stale due to lack of time and volunteers, it was time to officially put it to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should completely vanish within the next 48 hours. We're hoping to get the parts that are still useful into the main web site somewhere, and also add in any parts that aren't on the main site. This came as somewhat of a last resort, and as Jordan said, and I agreed with, no advocacy site is better than a stale one. - Jim -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 17:55:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD67B14C0A for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 871E01C25; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D1C381F; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. It would be better that advocacy.freebsd.org was a CNAME to freefall so stale links would still get the user something. bash-2.02$ hostname && /usr/sbin/nslookup advocacy.freebsd.org hub.freebsd.org Server: who.cdrom.com Address: 204.216.27.3 *** who.cdrom.com can't find advocacy.freebsd.org: Non-existent host/domain -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 18: 8:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from forty-two.egroups.net (teapot.findmail.com [206.16.70.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DD314C0A for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@forty-two.egroups.net) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by forty-two.egroups.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA09007; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:05:27 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990803180527.L91284@forty-two.egroups.net> References: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net>; from Jim Mock on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 09:59:20AM +1000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 09:59:20AM +1000, Jim Mock wrote: > Hi folks, > > Just a note to let everyone know that I've just talked with Jordan and > we both have agreed that since the advocacy web site has gotten stale > due to lack of time and volunteers, it was time to officially put it > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. Okay, this was seriously lame. I was going to raid the advocacy site for info and links that I could put into the FreeBSD section of dmoz.org. If you remember, I was originally using that space for all types of FreeBSD links, but nobody was interested in helping out, and instead only used it as a mine for text and infrmation that was quoted nearly exactly on the advocacy site. I don't even think there was a real call for volunteers to work on the site. I don't remember seeing one, anyway. (If I'm wrong, please refresh my memory.) Can you at least send me a tarball so I can get the information? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "Software is like sex; it's better mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when it's free." -- Linus Torvalds http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 19:16:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orthos.cadabra.com (orthos.cadabra.com [216.33.7.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F9215227 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@orthos.cadabra.com) Received: by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix, from userid 972) id A93A91DA04A; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC51119027 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Preston Wiley To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was unaware that there was a need for volunteers, I would happily volunteer some of my time to keep the advocacy site up and running. Just send me the info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Preston Wiley Cadabra, Inc. Systems Administrator 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 505 pwiley@cadabra.com Redwood Shores, CA 94065 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > Hi folks, > > Just a note to let everyone know that I've just talked with Jordan and > we both have agreed that since the advocacy web site has gotten stale > due to lack of time and volunteers, it was time to officially put it > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. > > We're hoping to get the parts that are still useful into the main web > site somewhere, and also add in any parts that aren't on the main > site. This came as somewhat of a last resort, and as Jordan said, and > I agreed with, no advocacy site is better than a stale one. > > - Jim > > -- > - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - > - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - > - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 19:24:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E520215254 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: advocacy site To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:24:09 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: from "Preston Wiley" at Aug 3, 99 07:16:48 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 177 Message-Id: <19990804022442.E520215254@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I was unaware that there was a need for volunteers, I would happily > volunteer some of my time to keep the advocacy site up and running. Just > send me the info. ditto. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 20:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E77C152EB for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13648; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:12:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? In-Reply-To: <37A68DFA.156FDFD3@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Or it might do neither, and continue to have a long and fruitful life. Why > is it that so many FreeBSD users define "success" as "replacing XXX" where > XXX is variously Windows NT, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MacOS, and even VxWorks I agree. We should focus upon making FreeBSD a more secure, robust, reliable OS... not merely upon 'world domination'. Religious fanatics so obsessed with making their OS the 'only' OS is one of the problems with M$. We don't need to mimic that behavior. I'm not saying we don't need to advocate FreeBSD - I merely believe that we should not become so obsessed with getting 'more users' that we loose sight of the development philosophy/goals that has/have made the FreeBSD Project what it is today. --Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 20:18: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CCC152EB for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13658; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:14:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? In-Reply-To: <37A68D01.507868CF@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > these interfaces, resulting in software that can't be run on anything but > a Linux system, or a system that emulates the god-awful Linus /proc mess. Which is, essentially, my point... We should emulate Linux where good, BSD-sense indicates... but we should not necessarily choose to implement stupid/broken junk. ;) --Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 20:54:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from alexandria.murdoch.edu.au (alexandria.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB4F14DB2 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:54:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Received: from guru.wow.aust.com (regmac23.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.182]) by alexandria.murdoch.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA56176; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:53:50 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Message-ID: <37A7B94F.FFBE9384@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:54:06 +0800 From: Jarvis Cochrane Reply-To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Organization: Murdoch University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hoskins Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Hoskins wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > these interfaces, resulting in software that can't be run on anything but > > a Linux system, or a system that emulates the god-awful Linus /proc mess. > > Which is, essentially, my point... We should emulate Linux where good, > BSD-sense indicates... but we should not necessarily choose to implement > stupid/broken junk. ;) Agreed. I tend to the opinion that the whole point of the linux emulation is to allow FBSD to tap into the wealth of desktop/office software that's available for linux, making FBSD a more attractive desktop platform. People want to run, say, StarOffice - most don't particularly care whether it runs under Linux or FBSD or Solaris or whatever. While I'm sure that there are exceptions, I can't see that there is much call for 'office' software to be mucking about in /proc. And _besides_, there's stuff like... urm... libgtop which aims to provide a platform independent way of getting at process and memory data. Perhaps we would be better served by ensuring that FBSD has a really good implementation of such a library, and asking people to write to _that_. Too idealistic, perhaps, Jarvis -- Jarvis Cochrane, IT Support Office of Student Administration | jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Murdoch University | cochrane@central.murdoch.edu.au Western Australia | [61|0] 8 9360 6128 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 21:51:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (mail.discountcruise.com [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48C914DED for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20683 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:50:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Message-ID: <002501bede34$c076a820$c100000a@cfpower.com> From: "Eric A. Griff" To: Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:49:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Mock To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:59 PM Subject: advocacy site > Hi folks, > > Just a note to let everyone know that I've just talked with Jordan and > we both have agreed that since the advocacy web site has gotten stale > due to lack of time and volunteers, it was time to officially put it > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. > > We're hoping to get the parts that are still useful into the main web > site somewhere, and also add in any parts that aren't on the main > site. This came as somewhat of a last resort, and as Jordan said, and > I agreed with, no advocacy site is better than a stale one. > > - Jim > Bummer, Just wondering, how dynamic was the site? (IE, how easy to add/change content?) Would the problem having to do with people having to hand edit pages, and links, and such? From experience, strong backends that automate a lot make it a lot easier for people to update a site and more willing... IE uploading pages from a form for example... This is one of the reasons I use ColdFusion a lot.. Makes fast development of dynamic sites a lot faster (coming soon to a linux near you).. I am also going to send a followup email to Allaire, since I have recieved no response from them as of yet. This is a very powerful tool, and we need it.. And I think they do too.. From recent experience, I wouldn't want to be in there shoes, when their phones start ringing for support for linux confusions unrelated to coldfusion, it's gonna bite them.. It's a heck of a lot easier to find things and walk people through them on the FreeBSD side =) I think the worst part of linux is finding where things are.... I have better luck on NT, ROTFLMAO Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 3 23:34:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0638D14EB6 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:34:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13991; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. I recall seeing a lot of people post things like, 'xyz page is stale' or 'foo needs updated', but don't recall seeing anyone actually posting updates or contributing content... I guess this is what happens when everyone's eager to point out the faults, but noone's willing to work on fixes. *sigh* --Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 0:28:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6933915333 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 48310 invoked by uid 1003); 4 Aug 1999 07:27:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:27:36 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804092736.A47331@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Mike Hoskins on Tue, Aug 03, 1999 at 11:33:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 1999-08-03 (23:33), Mike Hoskins wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > > to rest. Jordan has made the changes needed to the DNS, and it should > > completely vanish within the next 48 hours. > > I recall seeing a lot of people post things like, 'xyz page is stale' or > 'foo needs updated', but don't recall seeing anyone actually posting > updates or contributing content... I guess this is what happens when > everyone's eager to point out the faults, but noone's willing to work on > fixes. *sigh* I think, should the advocacy page emerge from the ashes, that the use of GNATS (or possibly some other PR system) be considered, and the pages be available by cvsup, &c. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 5:14:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5476F14D74 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:14:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18978 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: TCP stack hackers take a bow (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG it's near the bottom, but it seems BSD has good TCP/IP stack? who woulda known? :) -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|bright@wintelcom.net] systems administrator and programmer Wintelcom - http://www.wintelcom.net/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:51:23 -0700 From: Ted Faber To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TCP stack hackers take a bow -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Unmodified FreeBSD TCP at > 1Gb/s. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990802072727.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBN6dyYmlM93/mX/l7EQKDKgCfR7pUXdp6yU4+gmVf8SgyUaCRZlwAoKKc OZ/kSNLtUVb0lWIISZM5c0wW =gwyI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 5:23:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (mail.discountcruise.com [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F383B15420 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Received: from Apophis ([10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21642 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:23:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Message-ID: <002d01bede73$fd1af440$c100000a@cfpower.com> From: "Eric A. Griff" To: Subject: Fw: Jobs, and job numbers - if you already have job numbers, please tell me again. Thanks Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:22:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, Just came today =) Just got this from Sandy RE: Alternative OS supertest and feature. I am putting together a "past experience" article that I am sending to her, though from the looks of this, There is something much bigger coming out of the linux camp... She seemed pretty open to other "Alternative OS". Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) ----- Original Message ----- From: Sandy Smith To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Okay, have formulated a plan now. The jobs that need done are numbered, and > in categories at the end. Please Email me, and tell me waht jobs you want to > do, to a maximum of three, for now anyway, and then after those three, if > you are still interested, we can go on. Please please please tell me if you > have any ideas for more articles/review categories etc etc. And if you want > to review things, there are no numbers for certain software, only > categories. , but tell me what it is you are reviewing and what category. > More jobs will probably be added as we go on, but this is it for just now. > And I need to know of more distributions for interviews and reviews. I only > know 3! And as for deadlines, for your first three, I would like them in > within 2 weeks, but preferably as soon as you can possibly manage. WHOLE > SUPERTEST > 1) graphic for opening page (large, high quality) > 2) "What an OS is, and what it does" > LINUX PART > ARTICLES > 3) What is Linux > 4) History > 5) Future > 6) GNU - Free? > 7) Distributions > 8) X-Windows > 9) Window Managers > 10) Techie Stuff > 11) Facts + Figures > 12) Programming > 13) Graphics > 14) The net > 15) Multimedia > 16) Games > 17) Hints + tips > 18) Diary of a newbie? > 19) Using Hardware - Drivers, problems etc > 20) Software - Free/Commercial > INTERVIEWS > 21) Large company that uses Linux > 22) Large company that doesn't use Linux > 23) Redhat Person > 24) Suse Person > 25) Mandrake person > 26) Graphic Designer > 27) Commercial Programmer > 28) Hobby Programmer > 29) Webmaster > 30) Gamer > 31) School/college?? > 32) Newbie (under a month) > 33) Intermediate (under a year) > 34) Expert (over 2 years??) > REVIEWS > > 35) DISTRIBUTIONS > 37) Window Managers > COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE > 38) Art > 39) Prgoramming > 40) The Net > 41) Multimedia > 42) Games > FREE SOFTWARE > 43) Art > 44) Prgoramming > 45) The Net > 46) Multimedia > 47) Games > BUNDLED SOFTWARE > 48) Art > 49) Prgoramming > 50) The Net > 51) Multimedia > 52) Games > > > > There, I think thats it for Linux. Phew, we're going to be Busy! > I STILL NEED SOMEONE TO DO PUBLICITY - IN THEIR SPARE TIME OF COURSE -- > PLEEESE? > > > > > ***************************** > Sandy Smith > Manager > > Reviews 'r' Us : http://www.reviews-r-us.com > > Tel: +44 (0)1368 864 275 > Fax: +44 (0)1368 864 275 > Email: sandy@reviews-r-us.com > ***************************** > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 7:35:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337C315153 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:35:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-173.thuntek.net [207.66.52.173]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA18109; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:33:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37A84E13.60D780A9@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:28:35 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site References: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> <19990803180527.L91284@forty-two.egroups.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I don't even think there was a real call for volunteers to work on > the site. I don't remember seeing one, anyway. (If I'm wrong, please > refresh my memory.) > Greg, it's sad to hear that coming from you. The whole site was a call for volunteeers. I had numerous postings on the advo list pointing to the task list of things that needed to be done, and asking for people to add input. DN even posted some of my comments and the links. Jim and Rob were doing a great job until the wind was knocked out of the operation by Bob B. deciding to change directions at Walnut Creek. Bill Swingle was hired on the inside to replace me, but it seems that he's getting even more bogged down in impossible expectations than I was. I don't hear much from him. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 8: 5:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D301E15153 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id KAA20487; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma020205; Wed, 4 Aug 99 10:59:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:59:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: <37A84E13.60D780A9@thuntek.net> To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Um, hold on. I submitted many dead link notifications, along with suggested fixes in some cases. The problem is that (to my knowledge) the source wasn't available via CVS, so I couldn't submit diffs easily. (Viewing source from within a browser and then submitting diffs on that is not my definition of "easy".) Thus, folks were relegated to notification only, with no fixes. There may be many reasons why the advocacy site was not/could not be maintained, and I don't think we're going anywhere by trying to assign blame or make excuses. Fact is, some of them I'm reading just aren't true. I'm a little disappointed that the official, explicit call for volunteers came within two days of the site being shut down. I did in fact respond, and was led to believe that some DBI programming was the only thing holding the site back from an official re-release. I couldn't help there; I don't know enough DBI to be anything more than a burden. SB On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > I don't even think there was a real call for volunteers to work on > > the site. I don't remember seeing one, anyway. (If I'm wrong, please > > refresh my memory.) > > > Greg, it's sad to hear that coming from you. The whole site was a call > for volunteeers. I had numerous postings on the advo list pointing to > the task list of things that needed to be done, and asking for people to > add input. DN even posted some of my comments and the links. Jim and Rob > were doing a great job until the wind was knocked out of the operation > by Bob B. deciding to change directions at Walnut Creek. Bill Swingle > was hired on the inside to replace me, but it seems that he's getting > even more bogged down in impossible expectations than I was. I don't > hear much from him. > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 8:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0165015166 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11793; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <37A84E13.60D780A9@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I tried to volunteer several times on the advocacy pages. Everything I did fell on deaf ears. Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > I don't even think there was a real call for volunteers to work on > > the site. I don't remember seeing one, anyway. (If I'm wrong, please > > refresh my memory.) > > > Greg, it's sad to hear that coming from you. The whole site was a call > for volunteeers. I had numerous postings on the advo list pointing to > the task list of things that needed to be done, and asking for people to > add input. DN even posted some of my comments and the links. Jim and Rob > were doing a great job until the wind was knocked out of the operation > by Bob B. deciding to change directions at Walnut Creek. Bill Swingle > was hired on the inside to replace me, but it seems that he's getting > even more bogged down in impossible expectations than I was. I don't > hear much from him. > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 10: 3:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09B8150A7 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E0E2C1C0E; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0EA3816; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:05:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Seth Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > suggested fixes in some cases. The problem is that (to my knowledge) the > source wasn't available via CVS, so I couldn't submit diffs easily. Wow, I wonder if there was ever a committer who advocacted (no pun intended) the placement of the advocacy pages INTO CVS, and also volunteered to be the mentor of the advocacy webmasters. That would have been really good, I guess. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 10:10: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B74150A7 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 07DDE1C0E; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A7F3816; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:11:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Seth Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > Wow, I wonder if there was ever a committer who advocacted (no pun intended) > the placement of the advocacy pages INTO CVS, and also volunteered to be > the mentor of the advocacy webmasters. That would have been really good, > I guess. PS. There is something sexy about getting an update of yours committed in the tree, people love to see: Submitted By: My Name Things like cvsweb, the 'contributors' handbook page, cvs-all, etc all are another reason to do something for the project. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 11:19:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orthos.cadabra.com (orthos.cadabra.com [216.33.7.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE9214D18 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@orthos.cadabra.com) Received: by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix, from userid 972) id 954671DA04A; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91063119028 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Preston Wiley To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well...if you are serious about retiring the advocacy site. Would someone be willing to send to the content? I'll put the thing on my home machine and run it myself. I think the advocacy site was a really good thing, and if kept up to date, would be a really good thing for the FreeBSD community. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Preston Wiley Cadabra, Inc. Systems Administrator 1820 Gateway Drive, Suite 300 pwiley@cadabra.com San Mateo, CA 94404 650/403-2227 http://www.cadabra.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 11:58:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D87DF1549E for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 89534 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Aug 1999 18:57:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:57:23 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804115723.B89379@dub.net> References: <19990804095920.A85270@blues.ghis.net> <19990803180527.L91284@forty-two.egroups.net> <37A84E13.60D780A9@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <37A84E13.60D780A9@thuntek.net>; from Donald Wilde on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:28:35AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:28:35AM -0600, Donald Wilde wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > I don't even think there was a real call for volunteers to work on > > the site. I don't remember seeing one, anyway. (If I'm wrong, please > > refresh my memory.) > > > Greg, it's sad to hear that coming from you. The whole site was a call > for volunteeers. I had numerous postings on the advo list pointing to > the task list of things that needed to be done, and asking for people to > add input. DN even posted some of my comments and the links. Jim and Rob > were doing a great job until the wind was knocked out of the operation > by Bob B. deciding to change directions at Walnut Creek. Bill Swingle > was hired on the inside to replace me, but it seems that he's getting > even more bogged down in impossible expectations than I was. I don't > hear much from him. Eek. Don, I wasnt hired to replace you. I was hired to do a myiad of different tasks. My primary task is not advocacy. That said, it *is* one of the things that I get to through some attention at when I am not bogged down by little things like planning the upcoming FreeBSDCon or cranking out the new FreeBSD toolkit. Before actauly being hired by WC, I volunteered to be part of the web devel team on the advocay site. I had a briefe exchange with those in charge but there was never any concrete details of my involvment laid out. I most definatly want to see the advocacy site live. Albeit, in different circumstances. While the site was well thought out and designed to scale well, it did not fit into the cureent scheme that the rest of the freebsd.org web stuff does. This is a huge detriment as ppl that would normally be able to fix a typo on the main website were powerless (or at least hindered) in wanting to fix items on the advocacy site. If I can get enough ppl interested in activly maintaining the site, I propose that it be brought back up and integrated with the CVS tree so that it meshes better with the existing setup. I am willing to put together and admin a new box that could live here at WC if need be. -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 12: 0:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899C0153FC for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07632; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:00:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd007546; Wed Aug 4 12:00:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22323; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:00:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199908041900.MAA22323@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: advocacy site To: billf@jade.chc-chimes.com (Bill Fumerola) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:00:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, gsutter@pobox.com, jim@blues.ghis.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Bill Fumerola" at Aug 4, 99 12:05:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > suggested fixes in some cases. The problem is that (to my knowledge) the > > source wasn't available via CVS, so I couldn't submit diffs easily. > > Wow, I wonder if there was ever a committer who advocacted (no pun intended) > the placement of the advocacy pages INTO CVS, and also volunteered to be > the mentor of the advocacy webmasters. That would have been really good, > I guess. You wouldn't necessarily have to give commit priviledges to the same set of people. For example, you could cvsup from a seperate collection into the standard location for collections. This would let the regular cvsup server serve data from a seperately maintained repository. The only issue would be preventing code committers from committing changes to the copy of the repository, but I think that's capable of being worked out. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 12: 5: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B3C15412 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DD5391C0E; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BDF3816; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:05:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Bill Swingle Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <19990804115723.B89379@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > I most definatly want to see the advocacy site live. Albeit, in > different circumstances. While the site was well thought out and > designed to scale well, it did not fit into the cureent scheme that the > rest of the freebsd.org web stuff does. This is a huge detriment as ppl > that would normally be able to fix a typo on the main website were > powerless (or at least hindered) in wanting to fix items on the advocacy > site. Might I add that the site would get another 160+ potential authors/editors by bringing it into the tree. At least it was brought into GNATS as a category, trouble is, the committers who had the power to do something with the PR couldn't do anything with the content. > If I can get enough ppl interested in activly maintaining the site, I > propose that it be brought back up and integrated with the CVS tree so > that it meshes better with the existing setup. I am willing to put > together and admin a new box that could live here at WC if need be. It could already be in the tree if -core wasn't such a wall. Jordan is the only one who showed an interest or reply to my bringing this up the first time. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 13: 8:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D1D2151AB for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 90419 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Aug 1999 20:07:57 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:07:57 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804130757.A90374@dub.net> References: <19990804115723.B89379@dub.net> <19990804202619.A71192@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990804202619.A71192@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:26:19PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:26:19PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 02:05:37PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > Might I add that the site would get another 160+ potential authors/editors > > by bringing it into the tree. > > I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here yet, but there are a couple > of issues to be resolved before it's bought in to the tree: > > 1. Multi-language support. I don't doubt our various translation teams > would be interested in translating the content to different languages. > Do the tools that the advocacy site use (backend database, et al) > and their current configuration (table schema, and so on) support this? > > That's without the slightly thorny problem of supporting multiple > character sets. > > If not, this should be fixed first. > > 2. How are we going to mirror it? The current FreeBSD web site (because > it's mostly static content) is nice and easy to mirror. Something > that's primarily database driven won't be. > > 3. How are we going to do change control on the content that's stored in > the database? > > None of these are insurmountable problems, but they do need addressing. These are exactly the issues that need to be resolved. The idea of a database back end for the content is nice but is it really necessary? If we can for go the DB backend, integration with the existing site would be much easier. I think that solving this one issue would make the others quite a bit more addressable :) -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 13:27:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A9815443; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:27:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B2B521C0E; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFFE3816; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:29:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Bill Swingle Cc: Nik Clayton , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <19990804130757.A90374@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > These are exactly the issues that need to be resolved. The idea of a > database back end for the content is nice but is it really necessary? If > we can for go the DB backend, integration with the existing site would > be much easier. I think that solving this one issue would make the others > quite a bit more addressable :) True, however, with a website that should be very dynamic, do you want to see 500(well, not that many) commits a day to an advocacy tree? Databases accept remote connections for a reason. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 13:36:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52E7D14CDE for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 90738 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Aug 1999 20:35:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:35:49 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: [unfurl@dub.net: Re: advocacy site] Message-ID: <19990804133549.B90687@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 03:29:37PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > > > These are exactly the issues that need to be resolved. The idea of a > > database back end for the content is nice but is it really necessary? If > > we can for go the DB backend, integration with the existing site would > > be much easier. I think that solving this one issue would make the others > > quite a bit more addressable :) > > True, however, with a website that should be very dynamic, do you want to > see 500(well, not that many) commits a day to an advocacy tree? true, but I am having a hard time remembering what parts of the site nreally need to be all that dynamic. Certainly a lot of the site could easily be static, with thigns such as PR's and news as exceptions. Or I may be smoking from the wrong end of the pipe again. Who knows. -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 14:29:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-43.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B474114CED for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01494; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.windows2000test.com/ and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, James Howard wrote: > This might be a chance for someone to place a FreeBSD server on the > internet with the message "crack me" on it. I expect a properly > configured FreeBSD server to be extremely secure (and moreso that NT). > Additionally, it could be a chance to publically show-up the Linux crowd, > especially if they decide not to try a similar test. Someone already did this with LinuxPPC :^) - alex Experience something different With our new imported dolly She's lovely, warm, inflatable And we guarantee her joy - The Police To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 14:34:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-43.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCF415445 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01517; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:33:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Seth Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > Um, hold on. I submitted many dead link notifications, along with > suggested fixes in some cases. The problem is that (to my knowledge) the > source wasn't available via CVS, so I couldn't submit diffs easily. > (Viewing source from within a browser and then submitting diffs on that is > not my definition of "easy".) Bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch, that's all you're doing.. Whether or not it was in CVS has no effect on how easy it is to submit diffs. cp is not *that* hard to use. For example: fetch http://advocacy.freebsd.org/foo.html cp foo.html foo.html.old $EDITOR foo.html diff -u foo.html.old foo.html > foo.html.diffs.for.the.site rm foo.html* Gosh that was *so* hard. In fact I bet someone with a bit more awk expertise could create a more automated sh script. > Thus, folks were relegated to notification only, with no fixes. Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy masses. - alex Experience something different With our new imported dolly She's lovely, warm, inflatable And we guarantee her joy - The Police To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 15:13:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F243214BD3 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01455; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:12:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Alex Zepeda Cc: James Howard , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.windows2000test.com/ and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Someone already did this with LinuxPPC :^) And, before that (I believe), it seems I recall a group called 'The Happy Hacker Digest' putting up various boxes for public hacking attempts... I recall seeing a snippet from an article about them that went something like this (paraphrase), 'Our main FreeBSD server still has not been hacked, so we're moving it to a Red Hat Linux box to make things easier for the kids.' :^P -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 15:20:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4357C14A2E for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01469; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:18:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy > masses. Of which I'm a member... that said, and without attempting to thwart any blame... We're all a team (at least I hope we are), so let's get over this together, and try to learn from it. There's a couple of options here... We can work like hell to bring the old advocacy site back, and then stay actively involved in it to keep it up to date... Or, we can help with what's already been proposed, and integrate everything that was on advocacy into the freebsd.org site... giving us one, easily-navigatable, up-to-date, whiz-bang site. Either way, I see a similar need... HELP, from US. Bashing back and forth doesn't get us anywhere. I'll settle this once and for all... it's *my* fault. *All* of it. Settled? Now maybe we can move beyond placing blame, and actually start working on the new site/integration. -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 15:22:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3FE152FA for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13983; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA21551; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21543; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:21:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:21:40 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Alex Zepeda Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.windows2000test.com/ and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Someone already did this with LinuxPPC :^) They hadn't when I originally posted it. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 18:33:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E069C153AA for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id SAA14212; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id SAA09896; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:28:48 -0700 Received: from xylan.com (haystack.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA07967; Wed, 4 Aug 99 18:32:13 PDT Message-Id: <37A8E9D4.AAF7F774@xylan.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:33:08 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: xylan, an Alcatel Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: feedback@techweb.com Subject: Re: Open source code smooths RTOS design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Re: http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?EET19990726S0076 Your recent article on applications of Open Source code to embedded projects was no eye-opener to me. Xylan products have used open source code for years; examples include the TCP/IP stack, SNMP, LDAP, xntpd, gated, and numerous others. Your article carefully skirted the major issue relating to the use of Linux in embedded applications: the Gnu Public License. A strict interpretation of the GPL as it applies to Linux in embedded products requires developers to release as GPL code every enhancement they make to the Linux system. At the very least this means users contractually *must* release and device drivers or board support modifications to the Linux community, even if they involve custom hardware. At worst, it *may* mean you must release all of the source code to your project to the community. We will never know for sure until the GPL has been tested in one or more court cases. In the meantime, FreeBSD and its PicoBSD derivative provide all the advantages of an embedded Linux application with none of the fears. NetBSD provides platform portability wider than even Linux. All are distributed under a permissive license very familiar to embedded developers; most TCP/IP stacks in existence are derived from Berkeley code. For users with real-time requirements, the RTMX OS, derived from OpenBSD, provides POSIX realtime extensions to a highly secure version of BSD. Users who wish to have the safety net of commercial support, BSDI provides their eBSD platform and the BEST (BSDI Embedded System Technology) program for embedded developers. While vendors who use BSD code are encouraged to contribute enhancements and modifications back to the source base, for their own good as well as that of the community, they are not required to share any code they do not wish to. Your readers should also know about the growing number of Open Source RTOSs being created. RTEMS, originally developed for the US Army and moved to the public sector under a technology transfer program, is now developed and distributed by its creator, OAR Corp., under the GPL. Cygnus Support, famous for providing support contracts for GNU tools and for being the guiding light of the GCC compiler for the past several years, offers their eCOS embedded system, which features uITRON compatability, under a license similar to the Netscape Public License. eCOS has been adopted by a number of chip and board vendors and features canned support for a number of evaluation boards for embedded ARM, PowerPC, and SPARC processors. For more information see http://www.freebsd.org/, http://www.netbsd.org/, http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html, http://www.rtmx.com/, http://www.openbsd.org/, http://www.bsdi.com/products/eBSD/, http://www.oarcorp.com/rtems.html, and http://sourceware.cygnus.com/ecos/. -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 18:57:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44F2153AA for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id SAA14336; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id SAA10336; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:52:08 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA09037; Wed, 4 Aug 99 18:55:32 PDT Message-Id: <37A8EF14.52B4C84D@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:55:32 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: Mike Hoskins , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Selfstyled arrogance? References: <37A7B94F.FFBE9384@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > Mike Hoskins wrote: > > > > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > these interfaces, resulting in software that can't be run on anything but > > > a Linux system, or a system that emulates the god-awful Linus /proc mess. > > > > Which is, essentially, my point... We should emulate Linux where good, > > BSD-sense indicates... but we should not necessarily choose to implement > > stupid/broken junk. ;) > > Agreed. I tend to the opinion that the whole point of the linux > emulation is to allow FBSD to tap into the wealth of desktop/office > software that's available for linux, making FBSD a more attractive > desktop platform. > > People want to run, say, StarOffice - most don't particularly care > whether it runs under Linux or FBSD or Solaris or whatever. > > While I'm sure that there are exceptions, I can't see that there is much > call for 'office' software to be mucking about in /proc. And _besides_, > there's stuff like... urm... libgtop which aims to provide a platform > independent way of getting at process and memory data. But it was exactly StarOffice that did this, looking for something in /proc that it could have easily gotten from a more traditional interface. Ugh. > Perhaps we would be better served by ensuring that FBSD has a really > good implementation of such a library, and asking people to write to _that_. Or just encouraging vendors to not use idiotic bits of Linux that can't or won't be supported under emulation, getting them to test their products however minimally under FreeBSD using emulation, and encouraging the "Linux Standards Base" to NOT incorporate stupidities into the standard, so the commercial vendors will stay away from them. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 19:39:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB90F14D84 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id TAA14629; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id TAA11244; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:33:32 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA10848; Wed, 4 Aug 99 19:36:56 PDT Message-Id: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:36:55 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Alex Zepeda , Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Hoskins wrote: > > I'll settle this once and for all... it's *my* fault. *All* of it. Damn you, Mike. Why did you DO that? Well, OK, it's all right, but don't let it happen again, or we'll dock your pay 25%. ;^) > Settled? Now maybe we can move beyond placing blame, and actually start > working on the new site/integration. We're getting lots of news links lately. A "FreeBSD in the News" page would be a good starting point. Perhaps and editorial resource page, people who can write well, have experience with FreeBSD, and are willing to be quoted when journalists are looking for sound bytes? (Like me. *blush* ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 20: 9:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8616E14D40 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00540; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Wes Peters Cc: Alex Zepeda , Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Damn you, Mike. Why did you DO that? Well, OK, it's all right, but > don't let it happen again, or we'll dock your pay 25%. ;^) Luckily I'm getting enough reimbursement not to miss the 25% cut, oh, wait... *shhhhhhh* > We're getting lots of news links lately. A "FreeBSD in the News" page > would be a good starting point. Perhaps and editorial resource page, people > who can write well, have experience with FreeBSD, and are willing to be > quoted when journalists are looking for sound bytes? (Like me. *blush* ;^) Both of these sound great... and should integrate quite nicely with the main site... On the 'willing to be quoted side', I'm working on a Hardware review/testing site that's FreeBSD-specific... lot's of configuration guides and benchemarks... presumeably, at least. I plan to integrate this into the FreeBSD 'Zine site, but that doesn't mean links/quotes couldn't be used elsewhere as well. -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 20:46:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF5714BF6 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id XAA17083; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma017079; Wed, 4 Aug 99 23:44:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 23:44:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > > > Um, hold on. I submitted many dead link notifications, along with > > suggested fixes in some cases. The problem is that (to my knowledge) the > > source wasn't available via CVS, so I couldn't submit diffs easily. > > (Viewing source from within a browser and then submitting diffs on that is > > not my definition of "easy".) > > Bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch, that's all you're doing.. Whether or not it > was in CVS has no effect on how easy it is to submit diffs. cp is not > *that* hard to use. Actually, I wasn't bitching, I was making an observation that getting changes made wasn't easy, and relied on several choke points. I think it's exceedingly unfair to call this complaining... I'm not. I'm just pointing out (as I did to the maintainers) one of the problems I saw with the old site, and offering a way to avoid repeating it in the future. > > For example: > > fetch http://advocacy.freebsd.org/foo.html > cp foo.html foo.html.old > $EDITOR foo.html > diff -u foo.html.old foo.html > foo.html.diffs.for.the.site > rm foo.html* > > Gosh that was *so* hard. In fact I bet someone with a bit more awk > expertise could create a more automated sh script. > Actually, yes, it *is* that hard. I can't use fetch due to firewall restrictions on User-Agent (don't ask; I can't/won't give more detail). In addition, what assurances did I have that any diffs submitted were going to get better treatment than the other "pr's" I sent? Even the ones whose diffs were not necessary (due to the problem being obvious) weren't fixed. Again, not laying blame. But if we're going to do it over, we might as well try to improve upon the process. > > Thus, folks were relegated to notification only, with no fixes. > > Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy > masses. Be careful who you're accusing of being lazy. In this case, you may well succeed in alienating any potential contributors. Volunteering works both ways. > > - alex > > Experience something different > With our new imported dolly > She's lovely, warm, inflatable > And we guarantee her joy > - The Police > SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 21:48: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mom.hooked.net (mom.hooked.net [206.80.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721B815451 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from fish.hooked.net (garbanzo@fish.hooked.net [206.80.6.48]) by mom.hooked.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA11601; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Seth Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > > Gosh that was *so* hard. In fact I bet someone with a bit more awk > > expertise could create a more automated sh script. > > Actually, yes, it *is* that hard. I can't use fetch due to firewall > restrictions on User-Agent (don't ask; I can't/won't give more detail). If it's just a restriction on the User-Agent string, it would be trivial to modify fetch to "fake" it. I know that Jim at one time was toying with the idea of setting up a CVSup server to mirror the site, I don't know if that ever got finished to completion. > In addition, what assurances did I have that any diffs submitted were > going to get better treatment than the other "pr's" I sent? Even the > ones whose diffs were not necessary (due to the problem being obvious) > weren't fixed. You get no assurances, and that's OSS for you. Expecting more is wholey unreasonable. For instance if you could commit fixes, could we rely on you to dedicate a sizeable chunk of your time to closing PRs? > Again, not laying blame. But if we're going to do it over, we might as > well try to improve upon the process. > > Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy > > masses. > > Be careful who you're accusing of being lazy. In this case, you may > well succeed in alienating any potential contributors. Volunteering > works both ways. I see two main types of people involved w/ advocacy of all sorts (sadly I see the same trend in the American public): those that say and won't do and those that do as well as speak up. When I saw someone describe the advocacy site itself as a call for help; that really struck a chord with me. How many people volunteered and contributed to that site? Certianly not I, Or even daemonnews? Considering that the FreeBSD userbase is estimated in the millions, it was a pretty poor showing. When you start worrying about words alienating possible contributors, you've entered the viscious circle of political correctness. My intent was not to single anyone out, or insult anyone (or any group); perhaps it would be better interperted as a call to arms (so to speak). - alex You better believe that marijuana can cause castration. Just suppose your girlfriend gets the munchies! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 23: 4:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB331527C for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA21875 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:13:30 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle Reply-To: eagle To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: more on advo site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well Guys, I just got back and what do I find out. The advo site is dead. however also is my isp. I wrote a post mortem review of why the advo site is dead. however so I'm not gonna get into it yet. But it is coming eventually Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 23:12:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AC615241 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA22005; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:20:49 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That Idea was rejected by Jordan as was putting it in the cvs repository any pr's sent even if fixed we couldn't close.. more on all this later.. Rob On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > > > > Gosh that was *so* hard. In fact I bet someone with a bit more awk > > > expertise could create a more automated sh script. > > > > Actually, yes, it *is* that hard. I can't use fetch due to firewall > > restrictions on User-Agent (don't ask; I can't/won't give more detail). > > If it's just a restriction on the User-Agent string, it would be trivial > to modify fetch to "fake" it. I know that Jim at one time was toying with > the idea of setting up a CVSup server to mirror the site, I don't know if > that ever got finished to completion. > > > In addition, what assurances did I have that any diffs submitted were > > going to get better treatment than the other "pr's" I sent? Even the > > ones whose diffs were not necessary (due to the problem being obvious) > > weren't fixed. > > You get no assurances, and that's OSS for you. Expecting more is wholey > unreasonable. For instance if you could commit fixes, could we rely on > you to dedicate a sizeable chunk of your time to closing PRs? > > > Again, not laying blame. But if we're going to do it over, we might as > > well try to improve upon the process. > > > > > Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy > > > masses. > > > > > Be careful who you're accusing of being lazy. In this case, you may > > well succeed in alienating any potential contributors. Volunteering > > works both ways. > > I see two main types of people involved w/ advocacy of all sorts (sadly I > see the same trend in the American public): those that say and won't do > and those that do as well as speak up. > > When I saw someone describe the advocacy site itself as a call for help; > that really struck a chord with me. How many people volunteered and > contributed to that site? Certianly not I, Or even daemonnews? > Considering that the FreeBSD userbase is estimated in the millions, it was > a pretty poor showing. > > When you start worrying about words alienating possible contributors, > you've entered the viscious circle of political correctness. My intent > was not to single anyone out, or insult anyone (or any group); perhaps it > would be better interperted as a call to arms (so to speak). > > - alex > > You better believe that marijuana can cause castration. Just suppose your > girlfriend gets the munchies! > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 23:31:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C376514D69; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA95531; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:32:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:32:55 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Bill Swingle , Nik Clayton , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804233255.A95138@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990804130757.A90374@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 03:29:37PM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 03:29:37PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > > > These are exactly the issues that need to be resolved. The idea of a > > database back end for the content is nice but is it really necessary? If > > we can for go the DB backend, integration with the existing site would > > be much easier. I think that solving this one issue would make the others > > quite a bit more addressable :) > > True, however, with a website that should be very dynamic, do you want to > see 500(well, not that many) commits a day to an advocacy tree? Would it be that dynamic? The main FreeBSD source tree (on a good day) gets ~ 200 separate commits per day. Why would the advocacy site get anything near that amount of traffic? > Databases accept remote connections for a reason. I don't follow your point here. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 23:31:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375AE14D69 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA72273; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:26:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:26:19 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Bill Swingle , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990804202619.A71192@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990804115723.B89379@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 02:05:37PM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 02:05:37PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > Might I add that the site would get another 160+ potential authors/editors > by bringing it into the tree. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here yet, but there are a couple of issues to be resolved before it's bought in to the tree: 1. Multi-language support. I don't doubt our various translation teams would be interested in translating the content to different languages. Do the tools that the advocacy site use (backend database, et al) and their current configuration (table schema, and so on) support this? That's without the slightly thorny problem of supporting multiple character sets. If not, this should be fixed first. 2. How are we going to mirror it? The current FreeBSD web site (because it's mostly static content) is nice and easy to mirror. Something that's primarily database driven won't be. 3. How are we going to do change control on the content that's stored in the database? None of these are insurmountable problems, but they do need addressing. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 4 23:41: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0F8154BD; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1EB0C1C09; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B23A3816; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:42:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Nik Clayton Cc: Bill Swingle , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <19990804233255.A95138@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > > True, however, with a website that should be very dynamic, do you want to > > see 500(well, not that many) commits a day to an advocacy tree? > > Would it be that dynamic? The main FreeBSD source tree (on a good day) > gets ~ 200 separate commits per day. Why would the advocacy site get > anything near that amount of traffic? It's either a database backend, or commits to datafiles. > > Databases accept remote connections for a reason. > > I don't follow your point here. Keep the code, pages, etc in CVS (which can be mirrored) and have mirror sites do replication of the databases. It makes being a mirror site more difficult, however, we FreeBSDers are pretty sharp and could set something like that up. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 6:53:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D844E14D5A for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA25414; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma024939; Thu, 5 Aug 99 09:51:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:51:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > > > > Gosh that was *so* hard. In fact I bet someone with a bit more awk > > > expertise could create a more automated sh script. > > > > Actually, yes, it *is* that hard. I can't use fetch due to firewall > > restrictions on User-Agent (don't ask; I can't/won't give more detail). > > If it's just a restriction on the User-Agent string, it would be trivial > to modify fetch to "fake" it. I know that Jim at one time was toying with > the idea of setting up a CVSup server to mirror the site, I don't know if > that ever got finished to completion. You're now asking me to violate corporate policy for the sake of a volunteer effort. > > > In addition, what assurances did I have that any diffs submitted were > > going to get better treatment than the other "pr's" I sent? Even the > > ones whose diffs were not necessary (due to the problem being obvious) > > weren't fixed. > > You get no assurances, and that's OSS for you. Expecting more is wholey > unreasonable. For instance if you could commit fixes, could we rely on > you to dedicate a sizeable chunk of your time to closing PRs? Actually, you could. Why not go through GNATS and search? Funny, your name comes up only once. > > > Again, not laying blame. But if we're going to do it over, we might as > > well try to improve upon the process. > > > > > Uh, yeah. Right. It's *all* their fault. Not the fault of the lazy > > > masses. > > > > > Be careful who you're accusing of being lazy. In this case, you may > > well succeed in alienating any potential contributors. Volunteering > > works both ways. > > I see two main types of people involved w/ advocacy of all sorts (sadly I > see the same trend in the American public): those that say and won't do > and those that do as well as speak up. > > When I saw someone describe the advocacy site itself as a call for help; > that really struck a chord with me. How many people volunteered and > contributed to that site? Certianly not I, Or even daemonnews? > Considering that the FreeBSD userbase is estimated in the millions, it was > a pretty poor showing. > > When you start worrying about words alienating possible contributors, > you've entered the viscious circle of political correctness. My intent > was not to single anyone out, or insult anyone (or any group); perhaps it > would be better interperted as a call to arms (so to speak). > You achieved the exact opposite of your intentions. Here's how I see it: By your own admission, you didn't even try to help. Who's bitching, and who's not? Until and unless you want to help (and this includes sending pr's, even if you're not qualified to correct them), what gives YOU the right to accuse anyone else of bitching? Too bad. The one thing the project doesn't need is more hypocrites. SB > - alex > > You better believe that marijuana can cause castration. Just suppose your > girlfriend gets the munchies! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 11:44:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A6515280 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:44:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA38550; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:07:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:07:45 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Hoskins , Alex Zepeda , Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990805190745.A37633@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:36:55PM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:36:55PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Settled? Now maybe we can move beyond placing blame, and actually start > > working on the new site/integration. > > We're getting lots of news links lately. A "FreeBSD in the News" page > would be a good starting point. http://www.freebsd.org/news/press.html N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 15:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orthos.cadabra.com (orthos.cadabra.com [216.33.7.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DABE14DB1 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@orthos.cadabra.com) Received: by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix, from userid 972) id 2DCDC1DA009; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22017119027 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Preston Wiley To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: New advocacy site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been working on a new advocacy site and I've got a rough draft put together for it. I'd appreciate some suggestions and more content for it. http://freebsd.tesserae.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Preston Wiley Cadabra, Inc. Systems Administrator 1820 Gateway Drive, Suite 300 pwiley@cadabra.com San Mateo, CA 94404 650/403-2227 http://www.cadabra.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 17:41:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (worldrecovery.org [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2555514D0A; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26939; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:39:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <002401bedfa3$f8a46820$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: References: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com> <19990805190745.A37633@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:38:13 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Nik Clayton To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Hoskins ; Alex Zepeda ; Seth ; Donald Wilde ; Gregory Sutter ; Jim Mock ; Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:07 PM Subject: Re: advocacy site > On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:36:55PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Settled? Now maybe we can move beyond placing blame, and actually start > > > working on the new site/integration. > > > > We're getting lots of news links lately. A "FreeBSD in the News" page > > would be a good starting point. > > http://www.freebsd.org/news/press.html > Cool. I looked. Though, where are equivelent linux pages to compare? I assume we need much more to compare (not that this is impossible), in fact it may be easy to get rolling. That's where linux is hitting. They've just created a niche where some corporate likes are in a frenzy over it (not necessarily with logic involved). Put a little logic into them, on there terms, and they might divert.. We need that whole page full, for a month.. I think that's where linux is at... That's where companies like Oracle, Allaire, among others decide to work with a particular OS. The biggest question they are asking is, How much will it make. Truth is, long term, FreeBSD would likely make them more, since they'd have more customers satisfied do to there systems running on a stable, and affordable OS. Allaire for example, jumps on $$. Sun paid them to make the Solaris version available. I believe a similiar situation occured for HPUX. And they are riding the Linux Buz to some linux support, that will eventually lead to a full blown version of ColdFusion for linux. I guess Jeremy Allaire has a "I love linux" bumper sticker, however when I was in Cambridge last, I didn't have time to find out.. That could equate to 's/linux/$$/' Of course, in the $$ argument, we have 2 things in our corner 1) BSD license, and 2) Stability. That BSD license needs to be sold more =) Thank you for your 2 minutes, Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 17:41:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (worldrecovery.org [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD81155C8; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26963; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:41:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <002501bedfa4$3f7eae90$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: References: <37A8F8C7.F5333380@softweyr.com> <19990805190745.A37633@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:38:13 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Nik Clayton To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Hoskins ; Alex Zepeda ; Seth ; Donald Wilde ; Gregory Sutter ; Jim Mock ; Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:07 PM Subject: Re: advocacy site > On Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 08:36:55PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Settled? Now maybe we can move beyond placing blame, and actually start > > > working on the new site/integration. > > > > We're getting lots of news links lately. A "FreeBSD in the News" page > > would be a good starting point. > > http://www.freebsd.org/news/press.html > Cool. I looked. Though, where are equivelent linux pages to compare? I assume we need much more to compare (not that this is impossible), in fact it may be easy to get rolling. That's where linux is hitting. They've just created a niche where some corporate likes are in a frenzy over it (not necessarily with logic involved). Put a little logic into them, on there terms, and they might divert.. We need that whole page full, for a month.. I think that's where linux is at... That's where companies like Oracle, Allaire, among others decide to work with a particular OS. The biggest question they are asking is, How much will it make. Truth is, long term, FreeBSD would likely make them more, since they'd have more customers satisfied do to there systems running on a stable, and affordable OS. Allaire for example, jumps on $$. Sun paid them to make the Solaris version available. I believe a similiar situation occured for HPUX. And they are riding the Linux Buz to some linux support, that will eventually lead to a full blown version of ColdFusion for linux. I guess Jeremy Allaire has a "I love linux" bumper sticker, however when I was in Cambridge last, I didn't have time to find out.. That could equate to 's/linux/$$/' Of course, in the $$ argument, we have 2 things in our corner 1) BSD license, and 2) Stability. That BSD license needs to be sold more =) Thank you for your 2 minutes, Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 17:52:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B11E14D0A for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA28409; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA16802; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:46:44 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA13477; Thu, 5 Aug 99 17:50:20 PDT Message-Id: <37AA314B.D6CB1B3B@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:50:19 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Preston Wiley Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New advocacy site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Preston Wiley wrote: > > I've been working on a new advocacy site and I've got a rough draft put > together for it. I'd appreciate some suggestions and more content for it. It certainly looks good. In noticed in the "big name users" you have Be. You should update that entry a bit, BeOS has been out for the Pentium for a couple of years now. ;^) The PowerPoint and HTML presentations are a great idea. A "MagicPoint" version would be nice, too, in your copious spare time. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Aug 5 19:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-110.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDB514E58 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13930 for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:16:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:16:10 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) Message-ID: <19990806121610.A13888@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rob's asked me to forward this on to the list. He seems to be having some trouble with getting mail through to certain places. - Jim --- Forwarded message from eagle@phc.igs.net --- Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:52:30 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle@phc.igs.net Subject: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org To: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: jim@blues.ghis.net In response to the discussion on advocacy about the advocacy site, I felt it neccessary to bring up several points. 1. There where many requests for help with the site. I sent *Many* emails to the advo list requesting help, there were also requests for help on the site itself. 2. The issue about bringing the site into the tree. Bill F, and I discussed this to death, Bill sent a email to core, offering to be mentor to Jim Mock and myself. The result of his e-mail was it was denied by core. I then asked Jordan about running a seperate cvsupd to provide access to the tree. This request was also denied. The reason being, that Jordan didn't want a bunch of new committers on freefall or the advocacy box. 3. Nik brought up the issue of tools used by the advocacy project. Everything was done with the issues that Nik brought up in mind. The source of the advocacy site was written in SGML and converted to HTML through make. 4. The reason for the database concept, is not obvious from the present implementation of the site. The goal that we where working towards, was a dynamic site, generating static pages. One proof of concept is /. 5. There where several reasons why the content went stale. 1. We didn't want to make a lot of changes to the cvs tree on the advo box if it was going to be moved to freefall. 2. The last update we where working on was dependant on work being done by as usual in the advocacy sites limited lifetime 1 person. He switched Jobs while working on it, and just didn't have time to finish it.. btw Thanks Tommy for your efforts in helping with this. 3. What volunteers we did manage to recruit, for the most part didn't contribute. 4. I firmly believe the lack of a central repository. was the final nail in this projects coffin. I want to thank those that did work on this project with me for there efforts, The List is short and they all ready know who they are. I would also like to thank JKH for his input and Bill Fumerola for attempting to bring about the one thing that I believe would of saved this project. I would also like to apolagize for the lack of time that I have been able to dedicate to the advo site in the last several months, I'm not going to explain why, as those who where involved in the site already know. Robert E. Garrett --- End forwarded message --- -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: Bringing UNIX to the masses --- http://www.freebsd.org/ - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 1:22: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49D014F99 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 01:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00249; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 01:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 01:21:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Seth Cc: Alex Zepeda , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > > You get no assurances, and that's OSS for you. Expecting more is wholey > > unreasonable. For instance if you could commit fixes, could we rely on > > you to dedicate a sizeable chunk of your time to closing PRs? > Actually, you could. Why not go through GNATS and search? Funny, your > name comes up only once. I'm so happy we now sound just like the Linux community. Here's a thought... if we have enough time to search GNATS to prove a point, or to write lengthy messages *bitching* about *bitching*, maybe we could set aside a wee bit of time to actually contribute to the project. Note to any reader: Make no mistake, I am not at all attempting to take any side in this argument. I am attempting to point out the foolishness in the argument itself, and, furthermore, attempting to remind myself that 'maturity' was, at some point, a FreeBSD trait. -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 6:48:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C6615426 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 366271C0E; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3296E3813; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:48:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990806121610.A13888@blues.ghis.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > Rob's asked me to forward this on to the list. He seems to be having > some trouble with getting mail through to certain places. > > - Jim > > --- Forwarded message from eagle@phc.igs.net --- > > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:52:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: eagle@phc.igs.net > Subject: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org > To: advocacy@freebsd.org > cc: jim@blues.ghis.net > > In response to the discussion on advocacy about the advocacy site, I > felt it neccessary to bring up several points. > > 1. There where many requests for help with the site. > > I sent *Many* emails to the advo list requesting help, there > were also requests for help on the site itself. > > 2. The issue about bringing the site into the tree. > > Bill F, and I discussed this to death, Bill sent a email to > core, offering to be mentor to Jim Mock and myself. The > result of his e-mail was it was denied by core. I then asked > Jordan about running a seperate cvsupd to provide access to > the tree. This request was also denied. The reason being, > that Jordan didn't want a bunch of new committers on freefall > or the advocacy box. > > 3. Nik brought up the issue of tools used by the advocacy project. > > Everything was done with the issues that Nik brought up in > mind. The source of the advocacy site was written in SGML and > converted to HTML through make. > > 4. The reason for the database concept, is not obvious from the > present implementation of the site. > > The goal that we where working towards, was a dynamic site, > generating static pages. One proof of concept is /. > > 5. There where several reasons why the content went stale. > > 1. We didn't want to make a lot of changes to the cvs tree on > the advo box if it was going to be moved to freefall. > > 2. The last update we where working on was dependant on work > being done by as usual in the advocacy sites limited > lifetime 1 person. He switched Jobs while working on it, > and just didn't have time to finish it.. btw Thanks Tommy > for your efforts in helping with this. > > 3. What volunteers we did manage to recruit, for the most > part didn't contribute. > > 4. I firmly believe the lack of a central repository. was the > final nail in this projects coffin. > > I want to thank those that did work on this project with me for there > efforts, The List is short and they all ready know who they are. I > would also like to thank JKH for his input and Bill Fumerola for > attempting to bring about the one thing that I believe would of saved > this project. > > I would also like to apolagize for the lack of time that I have been > able to dedicate to the advo site in the last several months, I'm not > going to explain why, as those who where involved in the site already > know. > > Robert E. Garrett > > --- End forwarded message --- > > -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 6:55:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF1515295 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA27493; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma027007; Fri, 6 Aug 99 09:51:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:47:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Alex Zepeda , advocacy@freebsd.org, Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: > > Here's a thought... if we have enough time to search GNATS to prove a > point, or to write lengthy messages *bitching* about *bitching*, maybe we > could set aside a wee bit of time to actually contribute to the project. GNATS is easy enough to search :) But your point is well taken. I was taking offense to Mr. Zepeda's implication that this was just another case of "all talk, no action", when it certainly wasn't. His statement had no basis. > > Note to any reader: Make no mistake, I am not at all attempting to take > any side in this argument. I am attempting to point out the foolishness > in the argument itself, and, furthermore, attempting to remind myself that > 'maturity' was, at some point, a FreeBSD trait. > > -Mike > It still is, as far as I'm concerned. Flame wars like this are few and far-between here, and it's an unfortunate reality that whenever you have more than one person in a room, you're going to have differences of opinion. You can't determine a failed marriage on the basis of one argument. That said, I'd like to move on as well, and would like to volunteer my efforts to the (new) advocacy site. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 7: 0:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6A114CF3 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA00394; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:57:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Seth Cc: Alex Zepeda , advocacy@freebsd.org, Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > That said, I'd like to move on as well, and would like to volunteer my > efforts to the (new) advocacy site. Here, here... I'm *willing* to help with anything I can... how useful that turns out to really be is in question, since I'm 'DB-Dumb'. When it comes to basic content, however, I've got time to type. ;) One thing I noticed today (this is not advocacy-related, but along a similar thread, I think...), is Handbook sections that are 'Under Construction', so to speak... Is this to say anyone willing to write up missing section(s) can do so (with the appropriate expertise and approval, of course)? If so, to whom may these submissions be made? -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 7:44:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BDB15591; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11ClE1-0000zy-00; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:44:02 -0600 Message-ID: <37AAF4B3.E7677000@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 08:44:03 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hoskins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Hoskins wrote: > > One thing I noticed today (this is not advocacy-related, but along a > similar thread, I think...), is Handbook sections that are 'Under > Construction', so to speak... Is this to say anyone willing to write up > missing section(s) can do so (with the appropriate expertise and approval, > of course)? If so, to whom may these submissions be made? freebsd-doc@freebsd.org would be a good start. ;^) I've directed replies there. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 10:24:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from high-voltage.com (voltage.high-voltage.com [205.243.158.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2806715606 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from BMCGROARTY@high-voltage.com) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 12:09 -0600 From: "Brian McGroarty" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Newcomers periodically question the choice of Chucky Daemon as FreeBSD's mascot. The resolution of these discussions is invariably a suggestion that the person asking "didn't get it." Sure are a lot of people who "don't get it..." I love Chucky. And I'd like to see him as part of BSD/FreeBSD forever. However he's a poor choice for the cover of the Walnut Creek CD-ROMs. The character, especially in his current incarnations, has a very cartoonish appearance. He's certainly a draw and a recognizable symbol for those already using FreeBSD. But for someone picking over the packaging cold, he grossly misrepresents FreeBSD as a product. - By misrepresenting FreeBSD, not only does Chucky carry no branding value at present; he actually hurts FreeBSD's chances in traditional retail environments. Personal preferences and history of use aside, FreeBSD's strongest selling point is its maturity. The system is stable and extremely solid. And the more rigid development structure keeps it that way. If viewed as a product, FreeBSD's target purchaser is a technically savvy individual who is interested in stability and performance, not a popular trend. Thus, - The packaging needs to reflect the mature and professional nature of the product. FreeBSD itself is an unknown in most circles outside established UNIX production environments and academia. Thus, not only does Chucky carry little branding value, "FreeBSD" itself doesn't describe the product well. Every bit as large as the FreeBSD logo, the cover needs "UNIX" to identify FreeBSD. The strengths should be listed underneath. "STABILITY. PERFORMANCE. SECURITY." - Until FreeBSD is an established brand, the packaging needs to define the brand at a glance. Listing supported hardware is of little use. If you're purchasing the CD-ROM to upgrade, you should already know where to find compatibility information. If you're purchasing cold, you're likely not experienced enough to know whether you have a 3C905 or a 3C509. And little on the packaging will have you excited enough to care. This valuable space would better be spent presenting a few screenshots of useful X desktops. Show Netscape, several KDE apps and gimp. Devote the text to expounding the wonderful virtues unique to FreeBSD, not providing incremental upgrade information. - Use the back of the package to grab the customer once they've got the jewel case in their hand. FreeBSD has something going for it which other popular UNIX-like environments don't. A strong and well-established history. Play this up, for gods sakes. Differentiate FreeBSD from the rest! Berkley branched in 76? 77? The jewel case deserves a gold-embossed "22 YEARS" - add a special tag below that indicating it's "now for personal use" to establish the idea that it's a long standing product while making the product feel paradoxically fresh and new to the buyer. - Take advantage of true UNIX's history. Leverage the unknown nature of the product to make it feel like a new opportunity. I would also STRONGLY suggest that The FreeBSD Handbook and the CDs be made available in a more tranditional software box. The book on its own feels flimsy. And the four CD set on its own looks intimidating. Until a user knows more about the product in hand, you need to be sure that intuition is on your side. Make sure they feel comfortable with your product. Make sure they feel good having that in hand. - An attractive box with heavy contents adds $20 to software's perceived value. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 10:33:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C4E15643 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10472; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:28:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42749; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:24:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:24:13 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) Message-ID: <19990806112413.A38499@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990806121610.A13888@blues.ghis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990806121610.A13888@blues.ghis.net>; from Jim Mock on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:16:10PM +1000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim, On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:16:10PM +1000, Jim Mock wrote: > Rob's asked me to forward this on to the list. He seems to be having > some trouble with getting mail through to certain places. Could you forward this reply on to Rob as well, if he doesn't see it. Thanks. > 3. Nik brought up the issue of tools used by the advocacy project. > > Everything was done with the issues that Nik brought up in > mind. The source of the advocacy site was written in SGML and > converted to HTML through make. That's not the issue, sorry if it was perceived that way. My impression was that a lot of the content on the advocacy site will be stored in a backend database (mySQL, Postgres, or similar -- the precise DB doesn't matter much), and that some mechanism (CGI scripts, PHP?) will be used to produce the dynamic HTML pages. First, let me say that this is, by and large, a good idea. Where you have content that can conceivably be viewed in several different ways ("Show me all the articles about FreeBSD in the press sorted by date. Now show them to me sorted by publication. Now show them to me categorised in to whether or not they were 'good' or 'bad' articles.", and so on) is a good idea, and can make site maintenance much easier. However, I have my concerns: 1. This raises the bar for people who want to mirror the site. Now they need to have a database installed (which may be an issue for some people, depending on the resources they can offer), and we need a stable mechanism to keep the mirrors up to date with the central database. Note that simply having the mirrors pull the content off the central database is not, IMHO, acceptable. This removes most of the advantages of mirroring the site, as we then have (a) a single point of failure that can bring down all the mirrors, and (b) the page will still only appear as fast as the connection between the mirror site and the central database. This completely destroys the usefulness of the mirrors. 2. Similarly to (1), this also raises the bar for anyone who wants to contribute to the site. Assume that the majority of FreeBSD contributors (and potential contributors) do not have permanent access to the 'net. I'll use myself as an example. If I want to make and/or submit changes to the website at the moment I can use CVSup to download the web pages, run "make" to generate the HTML, and browse the whole site offline. With the exception of a couple of CGI scripts, I don't even need to run a local webserver, as my browser can be pointed at the files on the disk. This makes it very easy to test out my changes before I submit them and/or (in a committer's case) commit them. I can't do this for the advocacy site if the majority of the content is database driven. In order to be able to see and test my contributions before I send them I'll need to (pretty much) run a mirror of the advocacy site. This is not impossible, particularly if all the software to do so is in the ports collection. But it does make it that little bit more difficult. 3. An important issue is that of 'change control'. With CVS we get pretty much all the change control support we need (with the exception of a few minor niggles). If important parts of the advocacy site are stored in a database then we should try and replicate that support within the database and/or the table schema. This means support for logging; Time and date of each change The user who made the change A 'revision number' for the information in that row A 'commit log' for that row and the ability to roll back changes as necessary (roll-back in CVS terms, not database terms). 4. The other important issue is language and character set. We should be making it possible for the various translation teams to translate the advocacy site. For information that's stored in the database we need to ensure that the database can support information in different character sets. We also need to ensure that it's as easy as possible for the translation teams to see what's changed in the content between any two particular revisions. I don't think any of these are insurmountable, but I do think it's important to do them properly. However, more tellingly, I can't think of a single web site that's database driven that has solved all the above. About the only database driven site that I'm aware of that is mirrored is freshmeat.net, and that skips some of the above by (a) being in a single language, (b) the mirrors seem to be mirroring static content that's generated on the server, rather than including the full database. Comments? N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 10:35:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC9A155F4 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA01128; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:38:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:38:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brian McGroarty Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > I love Chucky. And I'd like to see him as part of BSD/FreeBSD forever. > However he's a poor choice for the cover of the Walnut Creek CD-ROMs. The > character, especially in his current incarnations, has a very cartoonish > appearance. He's certainly a draw and a recognizable symbol for those already > using FreeBSD. But for someone picking over the packaging cold, he grossly > misrepresents FreeBSD as a product. Barring a massive shift in the alignment of the planets, there's absolutely no chance that the BSD Daemon will disappear from the cover of the FreeBSD CD-ROM distributions. I'd almost be willing to say most people in the project are willing to risk the loss of market share to avoid playing to the ignorant masses that immediately identify the daemon with the Christian image of Satan and choose not to buy as a result. > FreeBSD itself is an unknown in most circles outside established UNIX > production environments and academia. Thus, not only does Chucky carry little > branding value, "FreeBSD" itself doesn't describe the product well. Every bit > as large as the FreeBSD logo, the cover needs "UNIX" to identify FreeBSD. The > strengths should be listed underneath. "STABILITY. PERFORMANCE. SECURITY." FWIW, FreeBSD can't use the name UNIX anywhere. It's a trademark owned by the X/Open Group (unless they've sold it to someone else at this point). To use the name, an operating system needs to meet some arbitrary standard of what a "UNIX" is, and the distributors need to pay an obscene licensing fee. I like the rest of your ideas, though. I've always felt strongly that we'll need a boxed product someday. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 10:40:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95E51569D; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:40:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 341381C09; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B0F3813; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Nik Clayton Cc: Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990806112413.A38499@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > Note that simply having the mirrors pull the content off the central > database is not, IMHO, acceptable. This removes most of the advantages > of mirroring the site, as we then have (a) a single point of failure > that can bring down all the mirrors, and (b) the page will still only > appear as fast as the connection between the mirror site and the > central database. This completely destroys the usefulness of the > mirrors. Good DBAs address these problems with replication. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 11:34:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from high-voltage.com (voltage.high-voltage.com [205.243.158.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C59F1566D for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from BMCGROARTY@high-voltage.com) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:08 -0600 From: "Brian McGroarty" To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy" Subject: RE: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr Message-ID: <7E67D2FFB44AD31186D40008C7333C82@high-voltage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not reacting to the supposed satanic tie. I could care less about that. What I'm reacting to is that the silly cartoon character makes the packaging look like Reader Rabbit, not a mature operating system product. Discounting those already familiar with FreeBSD, if the intent is to sell this OS to parents and Barney fans, nobody needs to change a thing about the artwork. I didn't realize the UNIX trademark was -still- unavailable to FreeBSD. That's painful and silly. I can't think of a modern OS that deserves the label more. -----Original Message----- From: Jasper O'Malley [mailto:jooji@webnology.com] Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 10:38 AM To: Brian McGroarty Cc: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr Barring a massive shift in the alignment of the planets, there's absolutely no chance that the BSD Daemon will disappear from the cover of the FreeBSD CD-ROM distributions. I'd almost be willing to say most people in the project are willing to risk the loss of market share to avoid playing to the ignorant masses that immediately identify the daemon with the Christian image of Satan and choose not to buy as a result. FWIW, FreeBSD can't use the name UNIX anywhere. It's a trademark owned by the X/Open Group (unless they've sold it to someone else at this point). To use the name, an operating system needs to meet some arbitrary standard of what a "UNIX" is, and the distributors need to pay an obscene licensing fee. I like the rest of your ideas, though. I've always felt strongly that we'll need a boxed product someday. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 11:41:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.ham.muohio.edu (dragon.ham.muohio.edu [134.53.141.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BFB14DAF for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by dragon.ham.muohio.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17487; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: dragon.ham.muohio.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Howard X-Sender: howardjp@dragon.ham.muohio.edu To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > FWIW, FreeBSD can't use the name UNIX anywhere. It's a trademark owned by > the X/Open Group (unless they've sold it to someone else at this point). > To use the name, an operating system needs to meet some arbitrary standard > of what a "UNIX" is, and the distributors need to pay an obscene licensing > fee. This would be better directed at -hackers, but here goes anyway. NetBSD has done a bit more than FreeBSD in adding Unix98 compatability. In userland, where I have looked, they have nl, asa, recently (like two weeks ago) they added link and unlink. There are others I cannot think of right now. Many of the missing utilities are very simple. line(1) could be implemented in about ten minutes. I'm sure there are issues with utilities that are already implemented (sum's behaviour would have to reverse). How difficult would it be (technically) to make FreeBSD Unix98 compatable?[1] There was some talk recently about Linux being certified. Who was paying for it then? Could the Open Group be coerced into cutting FreeBSD a break on the monetary cost as it is a non-profit (FreeBSD, Inc is non-profit, no?)? Would anyone who uses FreeBSD (Apple, Walnut Creek, Whistle (now IBM?), people who sell products based on FreeBSD)) be willing to contribute financially directly toward this goal? It seems to me that it is worth the technical effort (and maybe even some money) to get the right to use the "UNIX" brand name. Jamie [1] It occurs to me that any places where FreeBSD and Unix 98 conflict, the behaviour should be set via an environment option, but this is obvious. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 12: 3:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D8B714D69 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 9876 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Aug 1999 19:02:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:02:56 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Brian McGroarty Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product Message-ID: <19990806120256.C9492@dub.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Brian McGroarty on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:09:00PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:09:00PM -0600, Brian McGroarty wrote: I'm not even going to touch these already much hashed out issues, but.,.. > I would also STRONGLY suggest that The FreeBSD Handbook and the CDs be made > available in a more tranditional software box. The book on its own feels > flimsy. And the four CD set on its own looks intimidating. Until a user knows > more about the product in hand, you need to be sure that intuition is on your > side. Make sure they feel comfortable with your product. Make sure they feel > good having that in hand. > > - An attractive box with heavy contents adds $20 to software's perceived > value. *poof* Wish granted. Actaully the first FreeBSD Boxes should be hitting the streets farily soon. It includes the full 3.2 distribution, Toolkit, and Complete FreeBSD (third edition). http://www.freebsdmall.com/software/#bsdpak -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 12: 7:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jezebel.demon.co.uk (jezebel.demon.co.uk [158.152.38.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED160156A3 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jezebel.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA00351; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 20:08:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <37AB3292.A1B2F241@trltech.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:08:02 +0100 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jasper O'Malley wrote: > > Barring a massive shift in the alignment of the planets, there's > absolutely no chance that the BSD Daemon will disappear from the cover of > the FreeBSD CD-ROM distributions. I'd almost be willing to say most people > in the project are willing to risk the loss of market share to avoid > playing to the ignorant masses that immediately identify the daemon with > the Christian image of Satan and choose not to buy as a result. Irrelevant. The cover of a "Walnut Creek" CR ROM has nothing to do with the Project's mascot. Me thinks. > FWIW, FreeBSD can't use the name UNIX anywhere. It's a trademark owned by > the X/Open Group (unless they've sold it to someone else at this point). > To use the name, an operating system needs to meet some arbitrary standard > of what a "UNIX" is, and the distributors need to pay an obscene licensing > fee. I must admit that I thought it strange at the time, but the Walnut Creek CR ROM's _do_ carry the word "UNIX", in the bottom right hand corner, under the BSD Daemon (the proper one, not the pissed waiter). Richard Smith. User. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 12:27:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317511561D for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:27:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id PAA12577; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma011533; Fri, 6 Aug 99 15:26:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:26:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: RE: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: <7E67D2FFB44AD31186D40008C7333C82@high-voltage.com> To: Brian McGroarty Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , freebsd-advocacy Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not sure whether anyone's brought this up yet, but... I don't think the presence of the daemon will affect usage. Linux has a penguin, and similar logos are present for each of the various distributions. It might help, but I don't think you'll ever get a consensus to ditch the daemon. It's a part of the BSD heritage. SB On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > I'm not reacting to the supposed satanic tie. I could care less about that. > > What I'm reacting to is that the silly cartoon character makes the packaging > look like Reader Rabbit, not a mature operating system product. Discounting > those already familiar with FreeBSD, if the intent is to sell this OS to > parents and Barney fans, nobody needs to change a thing about the artwork. > > I didn't realize the UNIX trademark was -still- unavailable to FreeBSD. > That's painful and silly. I can't think of a modern OS that deserves the > label more. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jasper O'Malley [mailto:jooji@webnology.com] > Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 10:38 AM > To: Brian McGroarty > Cc: freebsd-advocacy > Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr > > > Barring a massive shift in the alignment of the planets, there's > absolutely no chance that the BSD Daemon will disappear from the cover of > the FreeBSD CD-ROM distributions. I'd almost be willing to say most people > in the project are willing to risk the loss of market share to avoid > playing to the ignorant masses that immediately identify the daemon with > the Christian image of Satan and choose not to buy as a result. > > FWIW, FreeBSD can't use the name UNIX anywhere. It's a trademark owned by > the X/Open Group (unless they've sold it to someone else at this point). > To use the name, an operating system needs to meet some arbitrary standard > of what a "UNIX" is, and the distributors need to pay an obscene licensing > fee. > > I like the rest of your ideas, though. I've always felt strongly that > we'll need a boxed product someday. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 12:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from high-voltage.com (voltage.high-voltage.com [205.243.158.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DD0914D46 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from BMCGROARTY@high-voltage.com) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 14:19 -0600 From: "Brian McGroarty" To: "freebsd-advocacy" Subject: Marketing FreeBSD (2) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I ran this by our art and design staff. (I work for a video game and video production company. We do work for The Chicago Bulls, a large software company in Seattle, Midway, etc.) I'll summarize the responses. Most of these came up multiple times, and not all suggestions are compatible. Majority Comments: The white background needs to go. Black is overdone, but a deep purple would make Chucky look good and would make the CD stand out overall. Amusing, given Walnut Creek as the publisher: "It looks like a shareware CD" The angled text on the 3.2 cover should be a flush block. The font for that text should be a heavier weight. A very mixed response to Chucky. Some like him, some don't. I stated that it should be assumed removing him is NOT an option. They like elements of the new style, but would prefer the old pose with the trident. None liked the soft drink and record/tray/CD even after explaining the "server joke." 10 of the 13 asked wanted him to be smaller at least. Popular Comments: The "3.2" font "looks like 70s 'future text'" The FreeBSD logo should be larger - edge to edge, possibly even cropped partly. The FreeBSD logo needs a drop shadow or other emphasis "The Power To Serve" shouldn't be a serif font The bar on the bottom looks great. That could even stay white if the rest were colored The FreeBSD logo could have an alternate colored stripe behind it, ditto a vertical bar through the left text. The cover needs more color overall, through the colored background suggestion, or much heavier text weights. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 13:48:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636BB1561C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01084; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Brian McGroarty" Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , "freebsd-advocacy" Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:08:00 MDT." <7E67D2FFB44AD31186D40008C7333C82@high-voltage.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:48:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1080.933972482@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What I'm reacting to is that the silly cartoon character makes the packaging > look like Reader Rabbit, not a mature operating system product. Discounting > those already familiar with FreeBSD, if the intent is to sell this OS to > parents and Barney fans, nobody needs to change a thing about the artwork. I think that there are already so many more obvious and clearly detrimental shortcomings in FreeBSD's advocacy (lack of books, magazines, trade shows and other press coverage) that anyone looking at the mascot as an "issue" is a) barking up the wrong tree and b) focusing their time and energy in the wrong direction. In other words, if you want to make a clear and honest difference then put your energy and words behind the real problems. If you just want to waste time and give yourself a false sense of achievement by tackling some proxy issue, then worry about the mascot. Frankly, I don't think we have the time and energy to waste on that kind of sillyness though. If you actually care about FreeBSD's image and want to do something honestly productive, write a book or a magazine article. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 13:54:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1903D14E10 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01125; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jamie Howard Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:51:18 EDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:54:05 -0700 Message-ID: <1121.933972845@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It seems to me that it is worth the technical effort (and maybe even some > money) to get the right to use the "UNIX" brand name. I have to disagree. Since this is a licensed trademark, it would mean an *ongoing* outlay of money to use it (it's a yearly license with X/Open) and I don't see that it makes as much marketing impact as it once did, certainly not enough to justify the costs. Most people think of "Linux" before they think of "Unix" these days anyway when it comes to brand ID, and maybe we should be negotiating to use the Linux trademark instead... :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 13:56: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9311B152A7 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01147; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:38:48 CDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 13:55:43 -0700 Message-ID: <1144.933972943@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG P.S. Please don't call him "Chucky" anymore - it really offends Kirk and we don't need to do that. Just call him "the BSD daemon" or just "the daemon." Kirk says that he's not supposed to have a name anyway, and if he did, it would probably be "beastie" (not that I like that name much myself, so I just call him "the daemon", pronounced "day-mon"). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 13:56:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A3415698 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00175; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:55:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brian McGroarty , "Jasper O'Malley" , freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-Reply-To: <1080.933972482@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, please write a magazine article. We will publish all the good ones. :-) Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > What I'm reacting to is that the silly cartoon character makes the packaging > > look like Reader Rabbit, not a mature operating system product. Discounting > > those already familiar with FreeBSD, if the intent is to sell this OS to > > parents and Barney fans, nobody needs to change a thing about the artwork. > > I think that there are already so many more obvious and clearly > detrimental shortcomings in FreeBSD's advocacy (lack of books, > magazines, trade shows and other press coverage) that anyone looking > at the mascot as an "issue" is a) barking up the wrong tree and > b) focusing their time and energy in the wrong direction. > > In other words, if you want to make a clear and honest difference then > put your energy and words behind the real problems. If you just want > to waste time and give yourself a false sense of achievement by > tackling some proxy issue, then worry about the mascot. Frankly, I > don't think we have the time and energy to waste on that kind of > sillyness though. If you actually care about FreeBSD's image and want > to do something honestly productive, write a book or a magazine > article. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 14:51:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F39B14D62 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20043; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10459; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10453; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-Reply-To: <1121.933972845@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I have to disagree. Since this is a licensed trademark, it would mean > an *ongoing* outlay of money to use it (it's a yearly license with > X/Open) and I don't see that it makes as much marketing impact as it > once did, certainly not enough to justify the costs. Bummer, I didn't know they stuck it to you every way possible. How does this effect the value of the technical effort? > Most people think of "Linux" before they think of "Unix" these days > anyway when it comes to brand ID, and maybe we should be negotiating > to use the Linux trademark instead... :-) Cool beans, how much does that one cost? :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 15: 0:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1003.mail.yahoo.com (web1003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 57EF614D91 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990806220025.9847.rocketmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1003.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:00:25 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You're going to trivialize this discussion? This issue here isn't just the mascot, but the packaging overall. This has been the case since my first post this morning. I posted our design and art staff's response to the packaging, of which only one point really leans on the daemon. The existing Walnut Creek packaging has all the pinache of your average clip art collection. You don't see this as a major problem where attracting new users and realizing new distribution channels is concerned? On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think that there are already so many more obvious and > clearly detrimental shortcomings in FreeBSD's advocacy (lack > of books, magazines, trade shows and other press coverage) > that anyone looking at the mascot as an "issue" is a) > barking up the wrong tree and b) focusing their time and > energy in the wrong direction. > > In other words, if you want to make a clear and honest > difference then put your energy and words behind the real > problems. If you just want to waste time and give yourself > a false sense of achievement by tackling some proxy issue, > then worry about the mascot. > > Frankly, I don't think we have the time and energy to waste > on that kind of sillyness though. If you actually care > about FreeBSD's image and want to do something honestly > productive, write a book or a magazine article. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 15:52:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1006.mail.yahoo.com (web1006.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 16DB015654 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990806225200.23526.rocketmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1006.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:52:00 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:52:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG them: Ah, sounds good. Where do I pick up a copy? Humor me here and assume they don't have a T1 or cablemodem, as is the case with virtually all prospective users. Next comes the discussion about how there's this one place in Naperville, about two hours away, or how you can custom order it from Borders or get it mail-order from this place called Walnut Creek. Then come the explanations of why it's worth waiting even though they can pick up Linux today at five different places within walking distance. I keep spare CDs on hand to give out to friends and co-workers. Otherwise, by this point you sound like a religious zealot. --- Dan Langille wrote: > On 6 Aug 99, at 15:00, Brian McGroarty wrote: > > > The existing Walnut Creek packaging has all the pinache of > your > > average clip art collection. You don't see this as a major > > problem where attracting new users and realizing new > > distribution channels is concerned? > > me: "Oh, you're going to put a new firewall?... hmm, have you > considered > ipfilter running on FreeBSD?" > > them: "What?" > > me: "ipfilter running on FreeBSD?" > > them: "What's FreeBSD?" _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 16:47: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from forty-two.egroups.net (teapot.findmail.com [206.16.70.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6B314D7A for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@forty-two.egroups.net) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by forty-two.egroups.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA35701; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:46:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:46:44 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brian McGroarty Cc: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD (2) Message-ID: <19990806164644.R10541@forty-two.egroups.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Brian McGroarty on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 02:19:00PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 02:19:00PM -0600, Brian McGroarty wrote: > I ran this by our art and design staff. (I work for a video game and video > production company. We do work for The Chicago Bulls, a large software > company in Seattle, Midway, etc.) Awesome. Now _that_ is some good work for FreeBSD (and Walnut Creek). Given the "limitation" that the beastie will remain, you've collected some input from people whose job it is to create images! I hope that you can work with the right people to get some flair into the FreeBSD packaging. My favorite BSD packaging so far is definitely OpenBSD 2.3. Here's an image of their CD cover: http://www.openbsd.org/images/openbsd23_cover.gif Regards, Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Information wants to be free. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 16:58:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC70314D7A; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Received: from localhost (dburr@localhost) by 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13464; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:58:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:58:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr To: Doug Cc: john_wilson100@excite.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Please support FreeBSD 3.x as host OS] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ Moving this to -advocacy, since this is more an appropriate topic for them. Please direct your replies to -advocacy. ] I wonder if VMware will have a booth at LinuxWorld Expo? Perhaps it would behoove anyone who happens to be in the area to drop by and have a talk with the folks at the VMware booth (if they have one) about a FreeBSD port. E-mail is great, but there is something different about a face-to-face encounter that might lend more weight to the "let's port VMware to FreeBSD" argument. I for one am planning to do just that (assuming they have a booth, of course :) ) Mayhaps it would also help out if the great jkh would also pay 'em a visit... Donald Burr WEB: http://www.Powered-By.AC/ PO Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 Tel:(805)957-9666 FAX:(800)492-5954 Member and software developer with The FreBSD Project - http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ *** FreeBSD *** A FREE, 32 Bit UNIX OS for PC's -- The Power to Serve! On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Doug wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Donald Burr wrote: > > > I don't know about you, but I for one am ready and willing to plunk down > > my hard-earned $$$ for VMware if it came to FreeBSD. > > Sorry I wasn't more clear. I am too, and I'd *really* like to see > it happen. There is stuff both at work and at home that has to be run in To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17: 2:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com (web1005.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A1C12156FB for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990807000127.12025.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:01:27 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hear me out on this: In determining whether major retailors will carry your software product, unless you're Linux or Quake, with anything this side of a quarter million dollars' marketing budget the packaging is as important or more important than the product inside. My last two employers actually went to the extent of letting distributors choose from proofs and guide the final stages of package design. The rare exceptions have been in our dealings with Microsoft who make their own rules, and Lego Media, who already have a proven-profitable relationship with virtually everyone who owns a store. Unless customers are clamoring for a product, package design is EVERYTHING where availability is concerned. --- Dan Langille wrote: > > But these are availability issues. Not packaging. And the > main way to > get the stuff into the shops is to get more exposure so people > know about > it. > > > I keep spare CDs on hand to give out to friends and > co-workers. > > Otherwise, by this point you sound like a religious zealot. > > ditto. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A996A156F9; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01845; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199908070006.RAA01845@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Donald Burr Cc: Doug , john_wilson100@excite.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Please support FreeBSD 3.x as host OS] In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:58:08 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:06:18 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ Moving this to -advocacy, since this is more an appropriate topic for > them. Please direct your replies to -advocacy. ] > > I wonder if VMware will have a booth at LinuxWorld Expo? Perhaps it would > behoove anyone who happens to be in the area to drop by and have a talk > with the folks at the VMware booth (if they have one) about a FreeBSD > port. E-mail is great, but there is something different about a > face-to-face encounter that might lend more weight to the "let's port > VMware to FreeBSD" argument. I for one am planning to do just that > (assuming they have a booth, of course :) ) This would be a good idea, yes. > Mayhaps it would also help out if the great jkh would also pay 'em a > visit... Actually, Sam Leffler works for VMWare. Jordan and Sam spoke at some length this time last year; there is no need to convince the tech people there of the goodness of a BSD port - what's needed is customer presence. -- \\ The mind's the standard \\ Mike Smith \\ of the man. \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ -- Joseph Merrick \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:24:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 261031560E for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:24:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 12368 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Aug 1999 00:24:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:24:32 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld Message-ID: <19990806172432.A12259@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just thought I'd drop everyone a note to let you that we have a fairly large booth planned for LinuxWorld this coming week. I think it will be a huge success as our visibility is going to be quite high. We've even got a tower with rotating FreeBSD/Daemon sign on top :) For all of you that have been itching for more stuff with the daemon and FreeBSD printed all over, we'll have a whole slew of new products including mouse pads, cd holders, beanie daemons, and bumperstickers available for the first time. This should be a great oppurtunity to talk to the Linux-centric crowd. Please stop by and say hi if you are at the show. We'll be in booth #1026. -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208E51564C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8498B1C09; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEA23813; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:35:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD (2) In-Reply-To: <19990806164644.R10541@forty-two.egroups.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: > My favorite BSD packaging so far is definitely OpenBSD 2.3. Here's > an image of their CD cover: My least favorite BSD graphic is the "Kill Whitey" OpenBSD picture currently on the website. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:50: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1001.mail.yahoo.com (web1001.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75A9F14CF1 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990807004844.28425.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1001.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:48:44 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:48:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'll meet half-way on this. If the advocacy team wants to work on turning the FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE release into a major event, I'll contribute articles on how it's helped me develop for the Nintendo 64, foot the bill to enlist a couple artists' help in producing a nice cover and help strategize a nice PR maneuver to coincide with release. I *strongly* believe in FreeBSD, and I'll do what I can to help it along. But first TPTB need to accept that marketing and presentation are every bit as important as anything else in realizing broad distribution. Even breaking in media takes something that looks exciting. A cool logo, nice box cover or attractive screen shot is enough to affect the creation of an article just because a publisher wants to print a picture that's going to sell that issue to someone browsing the magazine. I can't be helpful if someone as visible as Jordan is going to call this a proxy issue or accuse me of selecting this because it's a fluff task. I'm not going out of my way to move my production work to FreeBSD, working through tapes of McKusick's kernel internals courses or spending my evenings digging through OS theory texts because I'm in the mood for "fluff." I believe in what's happening here, and I believe that the more wide-spread FreeBSD becomes, the more Lamberts, Dillons, Williams, McKusicks and other such personable people the project will attract. We all benefit and learn when people of that calibre join the project, regardless of by what means they initially discovered it. --- Wes Peters wrote: > Brian McGroarty wrote: > > > > You're going to trivialize this discussion? This issue here > > isn't just the mascot, but the packaging overall. This has > been > > the case since my first post this morning. I posted our > design > > and art staff's response to the packaging, of which only one > > point really leans on the daemon. > > > > The existing Walnut Creek packaging has all the pinache of > your > > average clip art collection. You don't see this as a major > > problem where attracting new users and realizing new > > distribution channels is concerned? > > At this time, it *is* a trivial point. Your packaging doesn't > matter > until you actually have people looking for the product, which > we > don't yet. Spending four hours writing an article that gets > published > ANYWHERE would be much more valuable than spending four hours > drawing > a new logo. > > Now, if you wrote an article about designing a new CD-ROM > cover... _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:54: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com (web1005.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CFC614CF1 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990807005247.17481.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:52:47 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:52:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD (2) To: Bill Fumerola , Gregory Sutter Cc: Brian McGroarty , freebsd-advocacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I dunno. I actually really like this one. =) Replace the daemon with that dude and I'll hunt you down and kill you, mind you. But I'm not forgetting that graphic any time soon. =) --- Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > My favorite BSD packaging so far is definitely OpenBSD 2.3. > Here's > > an image of their CD cover: > > My least favorite BSD graphic is the "Kill Whitey" OpenBSD > picture > currently on the website. > > -- > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer > horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - > billf@FreeBSD.org - > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 17:56:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (ns.mt.sri.com [206.127.79.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3C414DE0; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA11280; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:56:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA12994; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:56:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:56:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199908070056.SAA12994@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: Donald Burr , Doug , john_wilson100@excite.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Please support FreeBSD 3.x as host OS] In-Reply-To: <199908070006.RAA01845@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <199908070006.RAA01845@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ VMWare ] > what's needed is customer presence. If people could send me an email address where I could send and state my interest in a VMWare port for FreeBSD (I would of course pay for a copy of VMWare if it existed), I'll do it. The stuff on the WWW page is too 'generic', and I'd rather get it in the hands of someone who will do something about it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:33:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E893A14DE3; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03218; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Bill Swingle Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld In-Reply-To: <19990806172432.A12259@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > Just thought I'd drop everyone a note to let you that we have a fairly > large booth planned for LinuxWorld this coming week. I think it will be > a huge success as our visibility is going to be quite high. We've even > got a tower with rotating FreeBSD/Daemon sign on top :) And here I was all pleased with myself for attempting to get a daemon visible at the KDE booth. I think you've really outdone yourself, all that's needed now is a flashing neon sign (and of course some sort of auction so us mere mortals can get at some of these nifty things). :} - alex Experience something different With our new imported dolly She's lovely, warm, inflatable And we guarantee her joy - The Police To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E1D15619 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:42:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03228; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:41:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brian McGroarty Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a product In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > Newcomers periodically question the choice of Chucky Daemon as > FreeBSD's mascot. The resolution of these discussions is invariably a > suggestion that the person asking "didn't get it." Chucky is that satanic doll from those movies that comes back to life and kills everyone; "the daemon", "beastie", "that furry red thing" or whatever you choose to call it, is not named Chucky :) > - An attractive box with heavy contents adds $20 to software's perceived > value. Nah, I really don't think so. Even so, getting a better desgin on the package, really would not hurt in any way. I don't think as poorly as you do of the current CD packaging (having never seen it in person); but I do feel there's always room for improvement. P.S. A really neat idea might be a boxed Oracle distribution of some sort. But oh wait, they've got Linux division; not a FreeBSD one. Hell some sort of distribution including some big comercial package of choice would really be neat (Oracle 8, Now with FreeBSD). - alex Experience something different With our new imported dolly She's lovely, warm, inflatable And we guarantee her joy - The Police To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:43:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C40515754 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA05015; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Mike Hoskins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: > There's a couple of options here... We can work like hell to bring the > old advocacy site back, and then stay actively involved in it to keep it > up to date... > > Or, we can help with what's already been proposed, and integrate > everything that was on advocacy into the freebsd.org site... giving us > one, easily-navigatable, up-to-date, whiz-bang site. Uhh, I don't see how integrating the advocacy site with the freebsd.org site will reduce the amount of effort needed to get it up to speed. It'll just shove the energy required around so that more of the burden is put on the committers. > Either way, I see a similar need... HELP, from US. Bashing back and > forth doesn't get us anywhere. Yup. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:50:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0E51563F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03288; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:48:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Seth Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Seth wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: > > > > > Here's a thought... if we have enough time to search GNATS to prove a > > point, or to write lengthy messages *bitching* about *bitching*, maybe we > > could set aside a wee bit of time to actually contribute to the project. > > GNATS is easy enough to search :) But your point is well taken. I was > taking offense to Mr. Zepeda's implication that this was just another case > of "all talk, no action", when it certainly wasn't. His statement had no > basis. Odd, I found 5. None too earth shattering, but five none the less. There have also been at least a few problems where I've contacted the maintainer directly instead of opening a PR, but what's your point? *troll*. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:50:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7973156AE for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03262; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:42:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:42:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: eagle Cc: Seth , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, eagle wrote: > That Idea was rejected by Jordan > > as was putting it in the cvs repository > > any pr's sent even if fixed we couldn't close.. > > more on all this later.. FWIW, I think that merging the advocacy site is a step in the wrong direction, sorta like a family tree that doesn't fork. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:51:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-193-112-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE3B1563F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:51:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@snafu.adept.org) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by snafu.adept.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA44067; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:51:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Uhh, I don't see how integrating the advocacy site with the freebsd.org > site will reduce the amount of effort needed to get it up to speed. It'll > just shove the energy required around so that more of the burden is put on > the committers. Give the people who were in charge of advocacy charge over a CVS repo for the relevant pages under the main site, and let them manage it, with us send-pr'ing to them any ideas we have... Would that work? -Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:52: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCF815655 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:52:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03297; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:51:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:51:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.windows2000test.com/ and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, James Howard wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > Someone already did this with LinuxPPC :^) > > They hadn't when I originally posted it. :) Yup, and to top it off they consider their LinuxPPC box (PM 9500/133) to be oh so much more stable than W2K. Yet at the same time the Linux masses have had IRC contests to see how many packets/sec they can bounce off the W2K box, but call anyone who would do such thing to the Linux box a heretic. Ahh nice to see their true colors :^) - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:56: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B8915646 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01831; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Seth , Alex Zepeda , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 06:57:35 PDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 18:53:46 -0700 Message-ID: <1827.933990826@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > One thing I noticed today (this is not advocacy-related, but along a > similar thread, I think...), is Handbook sections that are 'Under > Construction', so to speak... Is this to say anyone willing to write up > missing section(s) can do so (with the appropriate expertise and approval, > of course)? If so, to whom may these submissions be made? No approval necessary - just do it! :-) You can submit your new chapters with send-pr or, alternatively, perhaps just emailing them directly to Nik. Anyone filling in an *'d section of the handbook will be strongly encouraged! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 18:57:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED6D15697 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03351; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:55:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:55:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Mike Hoskins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Mike Hoskins wrote: > On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > Uhh, I don't see how integrating the advocacy site with the freebsd.org > > site will reduce the amount of effort needed to get it up to speed. It'll > > just shove the energy required around so that more of the burden is put on > > the committers. > > Give the people who were in charge of advocacy charge over a CVS repo for > the relevant pages under the main site, and let them manage it, with us > send-pr'ing to them any ideas we have... Would that work? And then you end up with two entirely separate repositories and entirely separate groups. I think that while WC has the most money and other resources to throw at advocacy, out of the major FreeBSD supporters, it would be nice to see an advocacy site as a separate entity. This way one could go "Oh look at Windows, and all the Microsoft created advocacy" and "Look at FreeBSD, the (non coding) users love it enough to spread the word". And it pisses off core just a little less ;O - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 19: 3: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB1614CAF for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01919; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Mike Hoskins Cc: Seth , Alex Zepeda , Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 01:21:02 PDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 19:00:25 -0700 Message-ID: <1915.933991225@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm so happy we now sound just like the Linux community. > Remarks like that do nothing to contribute to the intellectual maturity of a discussion either, you know. Many people would simply regard the above as an ad-hominim attack on Linux which has no bearing on the topic at hand. Just trying to point out that it's possible to be just as purile while pointing out a lack of maturity in others, and perhaps to illustrate how easy a trap it is to fall into if one can do so even in the process of complaining about it. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 19: 4:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6410C14CAF for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B5AB11C09; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13163813; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:06:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > This way one could go "Oh look at Windows, and all the Microsoft created > advocacy" and "Look at FreeBSD, the (non coding) users love it enough to > spread the word". And it pisses off core just a little less ;O -core would have to pay attention in order to get pissed off. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 19: 5:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA9914CAF for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01985; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Chris Coleman Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian McGroarty , "Jasper O'Malley" , freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:55:33 EDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 19:05:21 -0700 Message-ID: <1982.933991521@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yes, please write a magazine article. We will publish all the good ones. Stand in line. You know how many requests like this I have already in my queue? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 19:40:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from balsam.methow.com (balsam.methow.com [206.107.156.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2698E14D63 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@balsam.methow.com) Received: (qmail 18051 invoked by uid 535); 7 Aug 1999 02:39:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19990806193901.A17587@wcug.wwu.edu> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:39:01 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Bill Fumerola , Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD (2) References: <19990806164644.R10541@forty-two.egroups.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 07:35:44PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 07:35:44PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > My favorite BSD packaging so far is definitely OpenBSD 2.3. Here's > > an image of their CD cover: > > My least favorite BSD graphic is the "Kill Whitey" OpenBSD picture > currently on the website. I think that one is realy cool. Theo hired a professional artist to do that stuff. I even have the T-Shirt :) I also have the OpenBSD 2.3 wire frame shirt. I think my least favorite BSD graphic is the OpenBSD 2.2 CD cover: http://www.openbsd.org/images/openbsd22_cover.gif -- --Travis When it comes to violence, morality and the young, we're the Idiot Nation, the laughingstock not only of the civilized world but of the highly-wired generation of kids we're supposedly trying to protect. Jon Katz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 19:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from achilles.gibralter.net (achilles.gibralter.net [216.48.24.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A5E15697; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hal@achilles.gibralter.net) Received: from localhost (hal@localhost) by achilles.gibralter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00301; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:49:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from hal@achilles.gibralter.net) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:49:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal Flynn To: Bill Swingle Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld In-Reply-To: <19990806172432.A12259@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of curiousity, how are you "bannerizing" your booth, Bill? I'll admit that when I started using FreeBSD, I was from a Linux and SysV background, and therefore not knowing what to expect (other than that fact that a fellow SA at work swore by it). Label me crazy and write me off (as most other allegedly sane people have), but I think that something to the affect of "FreeBSD, the next level" would draw a little attention. True, not as much as scantily clad females, but somehow reaching into the attention span long enough to draw an audience. On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > Just thought I'd drop everyone a note to let you that we have a fairly --clip-- > -Bill > > -- > -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com > -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 21:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D4614CA8 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02232; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: brian@pobox.com Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:00:25 PDT." <19990806220025.9847.rocketmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:43:04 -0700 Message-ID: <2228.934000984@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You're going to trivialize this discussion? This issue here The conversation started out on a trivial note when you went after an icon rather than a real shortcoming, I didn't turn it there. What *would* represent a non-trivial committment on your part would be a book or magazine article, as I've already mentioned, and if you're interested in getting yourself out of the realm of trivialities and into something substantive then the next step is honestly up to you. Others have asked me for pointers on this topic, so I'll provide a short, and by no means definitive, list here: Magazines: Dr. Dobbs Journal (have published several FreeBSD articles by Sean Eric Fagin already). Performance Computing (formerly Unix Review) SysAdmin Magazine (an especially good target) Linux Journal (yep, they will publish FreeBSD related stuff also) BYTE Magazine (the new electronic version - www.byte.com). PC Magazine iX Magazin (Germany) Unix User (Japan) For contact details, simply purchase a copy of the magazine of your choice and look on the masthead for the editorial board's address. You can also contribute to any of the fine FreeBSD-oriented electronic publications like www.daemonnews.org, www.freebsdzine.org, www.freebsddiary.com, www.freshmeat.net and even www.slashdot.org. Books: The following publishers have all expressed an interest in publishing [additional] books on FreeBSD and are *always* happy to receive an outline: IDG Books Addison-Wesley O'Reilly Prentice Hall SAMS If you plan on being at LinuxWorld, the Open Source conference or any upcoming tradeshow, that's also an excellent place to troll for publishers (and vice-versa). Finally, on the subject of the artwork used for the CDROMS, I've already said several times in these mailing lists that "the tailless waiter" is out and the old artwork back in, it'll simply have to wait for the publication of 3.3 for people to see this since we obviously aren't going to recall or stop shipping 3.2 CDs just because people don't like the artwork. :) And on that note, I think I've wasted enough time on this discussion and have nothing more to say on this matter. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 21:51:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B85914CA8 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02257; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: brian@pobox.com Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:48:44 PDT." <19990807004844.28425.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: <2253.934001491@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If the advocacy team wants to work on turning the FreeBSD > 4.0-RELEASE release into a major event, I'll contribute articles > on how it's helped me develop for the Nintendo 64, foot the bill > to enlist a couple artists' help in producing a nice cover and > help strategize a nice PR maneuver to coincide with release. I > *strongly* believe in FreeBSD, and I'll do what I can to help it > along. That's a fine idea, though there's nothing to stop you from contributing articles now of course - don't wait for 4.0 to start being an advocate. I've also said many times that anyone with better artwork to suggest need only step forward with said artwork and I'd be more than happy to consider it - where do you think the original "daemon walking out of a CD" artwork came from? I've also since spent around $1500 commissioning various bits of artwork which nobody seems to like, so if people really have a jones to see new artwork they're going to have to start drawing it and sending it in because I'm tired of throwing money away. > But first TPTB need to accept that marketing and presentation > are every bit as important as anything else in realizing broad > distribution. Even breaking in media takes something that looks Of course we realize that, we're not idiots. However, I fail to see how your original comments attacking the daemon constitute a "positive contribution" to changing this. > I can't be helpful if someone as visible as Jordan is going to > call this a proxy issue or accuse me of selecting this because > it's a fluff task. I'm not going out of my way to move my Compared to all the more urgent tasks we have sitting on our plates, it *is* a proxy issue and I can't help it if you're resistant to having the realities of the situation pointed out to you. I also clearly have to restate my position here since it seems to have become lost in the shuffle: I don't object to new concepts in packaging or artwork, what I object to are suggestions that the daemon mascot suddenly needs to go without any better ideas for his replacement being advanced at the same time, or even ideas (and the artwork) for better presentation of the daemon in general. It seems that about once a year, somebody suggests that the little guy isn't serious enough, or that using him condones devil-worship, or any number of other comments of a singularly useless nature. Is it any wonder that I see this discussion as something of a waste of time? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 21:52:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com (web1005.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD7CA14CA8 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990807045218.16894.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:52:18 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:52:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , brian@pobox.com Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You're picking after one point in the original posting which had quite a few others, and one that was rescinded while the others were pursued, Jordan. For the love of Christ - I've offered some very real and useful things, paying real, commercial designers to help with the packaging among. But I'm not going to be the first to say that trying to help this group can be like pulling teeth. Take my offer and stick it with your attitude. I think I've wasted enough time here too. --- "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > You're going to trivialize this discussion? This issue here > > The conversation started out on a trivial note when you went > after an > icon rather than a real shortcoming, I didn't turn it there. > [...] > > And on that note, I think I've wasted enough time on this > discussion > and have nothing more to say on this matter. > > - Jordan > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 21:56:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59B914DF0 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C2DA1C09; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FEF3813; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:56:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: brian@pobox.com, Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-Reply-To: <2253.934001491@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > CD" artwork came from? I've also since spent around $1500 > commissioning various bits of artwork which nobody seems to like, so > if people really have a jones to see new artwork they're going to have > to start drawing it and sending it in because I'm tired of throwing > money away. I think the ones on the web page with the daemon swatting bugs and doing various other things is cool. I'm glad to see the waiter leave the cover art however. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:15: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E2414E81 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02476; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:06:17 EDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:13:32 -0700 Message-ID: <2472.934002812@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We're paying attention. :) For what it's worth, I think it's still worth doing it as a separate site and worth doing it in such a way that "accounts" can be given to roving reporters and such without having to give them actual Unix shell accounts and/or CVS commit access. Having to put someone who only intends on being an occasional (but nonetheless valuable) journalist though the commiters voting process is just too damn much overhead for supporting a "slashdot" style site (which I believe is needed - if it doesn't change at least once every other day, people stop coming back). I also don't see people complaining that they're not able to mirror slashdot, so I think the fears about not having a CVS repository to put up for remote access are a little unfounded. If it all goes into a mysql database with a bunch of CGI glue then so be it - as long as it's visible on a site with reasonable network connectivity, we're ahead of the game already. - Jordan > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > This way one could go "Oh look at Windows, and all the Microsoft created > > advocacy" and "Look at FreeBSD, the (non coding) users love it enough to > > spread the word". And it pisses off core just a little less ;O > > -core would have to pay attention in order to get pissed off. > > -- > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:20:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737CC14E7D for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 84CCE1C09; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779483813; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <2472.934002812@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > We're paying attention. :) You paid attention. > For what it's worth, I think it's still worth doing it as a separate > site and worth doing it in such a way that "accounts" can be given to > roving reporters and such without having to give them actual Unix > shell accounts and/or CVS commit access. Having to put someone who > only intends on being an occasional (but nonetheless valuable) > journalist though the commiters voting process is just too damn much > overhead for supporting a "slashdot" style site (which I believe is > needed - if it doesn't change at least once every other day, people > stop coming back). Okay. mySQL accounts are easy enough to setup. The trouble with all of this is problems with the site will be reported through the traditional methods, and we're going to have to deal with that I suppose. I'll help out with any implementation though, however let's get it completly working before announcing it again. > I also don't see people complaining that they're not able to mirror > slashdot, so I think the fears about not having a CVS repository to > put up for remote access are a little unfounded. If it all goes into > a mysql database with a bunch of CGI glue then so be it - as long as > it's visible on a site with reasonable network connectivity, we're > ahead of the game already. Except less people will know how to help. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:27:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F5A14EB0 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02545; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: brian@pobox.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:52:18 PDT." <19990807045218.16894.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:27:36 -0700 Message-ID: <2541.934003656@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For the love of Christ - I've offered some very real and useful > things, paying real, commercial designers to help with the > packaging among. But I'm not going to be the first to say that > trying to help this group can be like pulling teeth. I'm also not going to be the first to say that many people who volunteer to "help" do so with such a loose grasp of what's involved (or how to approach the issue) that trying to actually take them up on what appears to be a nice, friendly gesture turns into far more time and hassle than just doing it yourself would have been. To use one of the aviation analogies I've recently become so fond of, I have this feeling like I've got someone in the rear seat bitching that the guy in the left seat is doing a poor job of flying the airplane and clearly needs somebody up there who knows what he's doing, despite the fact that the rear-seater has no proven flying experience, certification or otherwise any other indication that he's going to do anything more than fly the aircraft into the side of the nearest mountain. But he's loud and strident, so I should just turn over the control wheel anyway and hope for the best? I don't think so. Give me and everyone else here some indication that you actually know how to fly, and fly better, and I'll be the first to hop in the back seat and enjoy the scenery. > Take my offer and stick it with your attitude. I think I've > wasted enough time here too. And this, of course, does not do much to convince me that you're anything but another peanut-gallery partisan. Try to do better if you're actually serious about this. We've already established a track record, for better or for worse, and if you want to take this active of a role in things then understand that I and anyone else in my position would be a complete and utter fool in not demanding to see some similar kind of track-record in your case. You're not just talking about changing the color of the daemon's tennis shoes, after all, you're talking about making substantive changes to the boxed product that Walnut Creek CDROM currently ships (which you and everyone else should know about already, having hopefully looked at the freebsdmall before even entering this discussion). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:33:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from forty-two.egroups.net (teapot.findmail.com [206.16.70.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A0514D0B for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@forty-two.egroups.net) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by forty-two.egroups.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA39384; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:31:21 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: brian@pobox.com, Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr Message-ID: <19990806223121.T10541@forty-two.egroups.net> References: <19990807004844.28425.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> <2253.934001491@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <2253.934001491@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 09:51:31PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan, You know how you're constantly talking about having huge numbers of things that need to be done, and nobody actually doing them? Well... >On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 05:48:44PM -0700, Brian McGroarty wrote: > > If the advocacy team wants to work on turning the FreeBSD > > 4.0-RELEASE release into a major event, I'll contribute articles 1. Brian will contribute articles. > > on how it's helped me develop for the Nintendo 64, foot the bill > > to enlist a couple artists' help in producing a nice cover and 2. Brian will pay the bill for cover artwork for a CDROM. > > help strategize a nice PR maneuver to coincide with release. I 3. Brian will assist with PR, something that is sorely needed. > > *strongly* believe in FreeBSD, and I'll do what I can to help it > > along. 4. He is planning unspecified future help in addition to the three things above. On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 09:51:31PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I've also said many times that anyone with better artwork to suggest > need only step forward with said artwork and I'd be more than happy to > consider it - where do you think the original "daemon walking out of a > CD" artwork came from? You didn't say it to him. > I've also since spent around $1500 commissioning various bits of > artwork which nobody seems to like, so if people really have a jones > to see new artwork they're going to have to start drawing it and > sending it in because I'm tired of throwing money away. You won't have to throw money away. Brian has graciously offered to have it drawn at no charge to FreeBSD or Walnut Creek. > > But first TPTB need to accept that marketing and presentation > > are every bit as important as anything else in realizing broad > > distribution. Even breaking in media takes something that looks > > Of course we realize that, we're not idiots. However, I fail to see > how your original comments attacking the daemon constitute a "positive > contribution" to changing this. This was a preliminary suggestion, and was quickly withdrawn when the result of the suggestion became apparent. Not everyone is intimately familiar with the innards of BSD culture. A lesson was learned, and the other offers still extended. You are fixating on one point, and that point was a quickly dropped part of an offer to do service for the FreeBSD Project. I cannot believe that you are so hostile toward potential contributions. You should reread and think about this offer again, if it's not too late. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Computing is a terminal addiction. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:33:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BFC1574D for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA31515; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:32:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <008f01bee096$24db2350$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: References: <2228.934000984@localhost> Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:31:46 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordy! Good, straight up point! A little rough, though maybe necessary =) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordan K. Hubbard To: Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:43 AM Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr > > You're going to trivialize this discussion? This issue here > > The conversation started out on a trivial note when you went after an > icon rather than a real shortcoming, I didn't turn it there. Well, we need non-trivial goals =) Maybe: 1) Move further to be a better known Server Platform. This is a personal goal, since much of what I am on would move much further along, with the support of a number of key products. Here, I subcontract Network Maintainance/Admin assistance in return for office space and link. A few weeks ago, I was getting a closed mind towards FreeBSD from Mgmt/Marketing types, even though it was running continuous without problem for over a year for numerous things. DNS, Some Web (Non-ColdFusion), Email, and Chat. Both of those servers reached 100 days uptime about 2 weeks ago (when updating was performed, and reboots). One 2.2.8-STABLE (100 days old from then), and 1 3.1-STABLE (100 d/o again from then). At that point a threat arrived. RedHat 6.0, and a newbie that only knew all the books he had been reading, and kissing their managements ass with.. So of course, I had to mess with it for a few, and accomplished 2 things. 1) Put the newbie in his place, and 2) Educated/converted.. He decided a Firewall/Router was a lil more than he could chew, and also got some firsthand experience as to the easier layout of FreeBSD.. The #1 reason NT is still the primary server(s) here, is ColdFusion. This is a simple Middleware by Allaire Corporation, that gives a lot of power.. It also leads to fast training of new employees, and some Large, highly dynamic websites.. I've taken people off the street, and trained them over a couple of months, and had them off developing websites, shopping carts, search engines, and numerous other things, and with decent quality.. The key there is it's power, yet simplicity. Allaire is currently working on a version of this for linux. I intend to grab it as soon as possible, to attempt to have it running under linux emulation.. They are a very fast growing company. Companies like them are what we need.. A good chance the balance of there users could shift over the next year towards linux.. We need to market there. 1) Differences between BSD, and GNU licensing.. 2) Show a userbase that they see will make their worthwhile. 1) IMHO, we won =) 2) No contest right now. They have forums at http://forumns.allaire.com/ that in the past year had a large amount of linux interest. And maybe 3 or 4 for FreeBSD.. We're talking 1000:1 ratios.. MARKETABLE PUSH AHEAD (IMHO): would be to entice them to possibly get us into the Allaire ColdFusion 4.5 linux beta 8 (heard from an Allaire Strategic Alliance Partner that this was actually running, and almost release quality today), so we could do what is needed to get it to run under linux emulation. To have it running on FreeBSD alone would probably get some new frenzy going in there forumns going again. ESPECIALLY, if it were to perform better and more stable.. It might at least draw out more interest at Allaire to maybe tweak occasionally to work even better. It would also get a lot of people seeing FreeBSD for a while.. Around the ColdFusion MiddleWare development there are several mailing lists, one that likely exceeds what a number of the FreeBSD mailing lists currently push in load.. (CF-talk@houseoffusion.com filled my folder w/2555 messages over the last week of a lot of strong developer talk). To get it to run on FreeBSD will push us ahead in that Arena.. I do have contact with a couple of their Strategic partners, and have been pushing.. Emulation would definatly get them trying FreeBSD (one is a very large ISP in Europe). And the other in Allaires hometown (Cambridge, MA). WHAT WE NEED HERE: 1) Openminded and Cordinated presence on the Allaire Forumns. (Note coldfusion is just 1 of there products, some others include Alive, JRun, HomeSite, ColdFusion Studio, and a huge eCommerce system called Spectra coming soon). ColdFusion also has some builtin LoadBalancing, and Clustering technology at this point.. 2) A beta to attempt to run, and once successful, Ride that wave.. 3) A number of other companies in a similiar fashion.. Closing Notes, Allaire is just one example of startup (1992) companies that are moving fast into a much larger arena, and do cause a lot of press coverage. A lot. In a number of arenas, they are looked at as direct competition to Microsoft. They just went IPO recently.. Strategically, snagging a company like them, might lead to many others, as The Boston/Cambridge area has a large number of similiar companies that know each others. Allaire is in that circle.. Just some ranting about of just one place we could drive into, if we plan, and play cards right. Remember, a year ago, allaire had no intention of any new Unix platforms (other than Solaris). Now, HPUX is out, and linux in the works... > What *would* represent a non-trivial committment on your part would be > a book or magazine article, as I've already mentioned, and if you're > interested in getting yourself out of the realm of trivialities and > into something substantive then the next step is honestly up to you. > Others have asked me for pointers on this topic, so I'll provide a > short, and by no means definitive, list here: Getting mention on large CO's sites on a regular basis, can lead to more people interested in writing these. With linux, what came first? Magazine articles, or Some large Corps Strategic Partner trying the OS, and saying that I want this, because it's faster, and stuff...... Take a look at allaires forumns, and Main site. I'll bet there is a lot less time done on them, that the FreeBSD site... Also more doable by creative/artistic people, that often do web pages much better.. > Magazines: > > Dr. Dobbs Journal (have published several FreeBSD articles by Sean > Eric Fagin already). > > Performance Computing (formerly Unix Review) > > SysAdmin Magazine (an especially good target) > > Linux Journal (yep, they will publish FreeBSD related stuff also) > > BYTE Magazine (the new electronic version - www.byte.com). > > PC Magazine > > iX Magazin (Germany) > > Unix User (Japan) I will be looking at these when time is better permitting.... > > For contact details, simply purchase a copy of the magazine of your > choice and look on the masthead for the editorial board's address. > You can also contribute to any of the fine FreeBSD-oriented electronic > publications like www.daemonnews.org, www.freebsdzine.org, > www.freebsddiary.com, www.freshmeat.net and even www.slashdot.org. > > Books: The following publishers have all expressed an interest in > publishing [additional] books on FreeBSD and are *always* happy to > receive an outline: > > IDG Books > Addison-Wesley > O'Reilly > Prentice Hall > SAMS > > If you plan on being at LinuxWorld, the Open Source conference or any > upcoming tradeshow, that's also an excellent place to troll for > publishers (and vice-versa). > I wish (maybe next time =) > Finally, on the subject of the artwork used for the CDROMS, I've > already said several times in these mailing lists that "the tailless > waiter" is out and the old artwork back in, it'll simply have to wait > for the publication of 3.3 for people to see this since we obviously > aren't going to recall or stop shipping 3.2 CDs just because people > don't like the artwork. :) Cool! > And on that note, I think I've wasted enough time on this discussion > and have nothing more to say on this matter. > > - Jordan > Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:38:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0881F14D0B for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02684; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bill Fumerola Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Aug 1999 00:21:10 EDT." Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <2680.934004202@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The trouble with all of this is problems with the site will be reported > through the traditional methods, and we're going to have to deal with > that I suppose. So put up an email link for complaints - that's a problem? :) > I'll help out with any implementation though, however let's get it > completly working before announcing it again. Well, let's start talking CGI then. Who wants to take the next step? There's a lot of glue between here and slashdot. :) > > I also don't see people complaining that they're not able to mirror > > slashdot, so I think the fears about not having a CVS repository to > > put up for remote access are a little unfounded. If it all goes into > > a mysql database with a bunch of CGI glue then so be it - as long as > > it's visible on a site with reasonable network connectivity, we're > > ahead of the game already. > > Except less people will know how to help. I think the opposite is true, actually. If people are able to sign up and submit new content through a couple of very simple, straight-forward web forms, I think the number of people willing and able to help will increase logarithmically. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:45:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F27614ECC for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02710; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:44:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , brian@pobox.com, Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:31:21 PDT." <19990806223121.T10541@forty-two.egroups.net> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:44:03 -0700 Message-ID: <2706.934004643@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You know how you're constantly talking about having huge numbers of > things that need to be done, and nobody actually doing them? Well... There's a big big gap between "talking about doing" and actually doing, Gregory. :) I do draw a distinction between the two and only grant the benefit of the doubt on someone who's provably done it before in some other venue. > 1. Brian will contribute articles. See above. When the articles start to actually appear, I'll be the first to congradulate Brian and apologize for my lack of faith. > 2. Brian will pay the bill for cover artwork for a CDROM. I've also already established that footing the bill is the easy part - I've been doing that for awhile. Trying to find an image that people LIKE and want to see on a CDROM cover is far more difficult than you could ever imagine, however. I've also dealt with professional artists (where do you think the USENIX special CDROM cover came from?), some of the very *same* professional artists who have reaped kudos for their other work in the open source community, but getting something which somehow "represents" FreeBSD and does so in a way which is visually interesting/amusing/impressive is the hard part. The money is probably the easiest part of all. > 3. Brian will assist with PR, something that is sorely needed. See point #1. > 4. He is planning unspecified future help in addition to the three > things above. See point #1 again. > > On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 09:51:31PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I've also said many times that anyone with better artwork to suggest > > need only step forward with said artwork and I'd be more than happy to > > consider it - where do you think the original "daemon walking out of a > > CD" artwork came from? > > You didn't say it to him. I've said it enough times that I rather hoped I didn't have to repeat it yet again. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:49:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B7F14C94 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA31578; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:46:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <00ac01bee098$22750de0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Bill Fumerola" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , References: <2680.934004202@localhost> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:45:55 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, > I think the opposite is true, actually. If people are able to sign up > and submit new content through a couple of very simple, > straight-forward web forms, I think the number of people willing and > able to help will increase logarithmically. > > - Jordan I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:56:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com (web1005.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21A8014C3D for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990807055408.22509.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:54:08 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , brian@pobox.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG a) If helping people help you is such a burden, have some of these people you've helped along help the next people. b) You never ASKED for my qualifications. Instead you assumed I was a yutz and began making personal attacks. I've participated in the production of nearly 20 software products for companies such as Microsoft, Midway, Interplay, Atari and Lego Media and have had involvement in marketing and production work for the Chicago Bulls, High Voltage Software, GNB Battery and numerous smaller clients. c) All I asked for from you was an indication that help would be welcome in this area - that I wouldn't incur more attacks for putting forth an offer. Instead, I get more knee-jerk responses from you - this sure looks like a canned response, not a reaction to this particular thread. "Ah. It's a Chucky/Daemon/Beastie thread. Personal insult, cast aspersions." If you're going to make this so incredibly hard because you're so incredibly busy that you haven't time to be civil, why the hell haven't you delegated the task to someone more able to deal with people? --- "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > For the love of Christ - I've offered some very real and > useful > > things, paying real, commercial designers to help with the > > packaging among. But I'm not going to be the first to say > that > > trying to help this group can be like pulling teeth. > > I'm also not going to be the first to say that many people who > volunteer to "help" do so with such a loose grasp of what's > involved > (or how to approach the issue) that trying to actually take > them up on > what appears to be a nice, friendly gesture turns into far > more time > and hassle than just doing it yourself would have been. > > To use one of the aviation analogies I've recently become so > fond of, > I have this feeling like I've got someone in the rear seat > bitching > that the guy in the left seat is doing a poor job of flying > the > airplane and clearly needs somebody up there who knows what > he's > doing, despite the fact that the rear-seater has no proven > flying > experience, certification or otherwise any other indication > that he's > going to do anything more than fly the aircraft into the side > of the > nearest mountain. But he's loud and strident, so I should > just turn > over the control wheel anyway and hope for the best? I don't > think > so. Give me and everyone else here some indication that you > actually > know how to fly, and fly better, and I'll be the first to hop > in the > back seat and enjoy the scenery. > > > Take my offer and stick it with your attitude. I think I've > > wasted enough time here too. > > And this, of course, does not do much to convince me that > you're > anything but another peanut-gallery partisan. Try to do > better if > you're actually serious about this. We've already established > a track > record, for better or for worse, and if you want to take this > active > of a role in things then understand that I and anyone else in > my > position would be a complete and utter fool in not demanding > to see > some similar kind of track-record in your case. You're not > just > talking about changing the color of the daemon's tennis shoes, > after > all, you're talking about making substantive changes to the > boxed > product that Walnut Creek CDROM currently ships (which you and > everyone else should know about already, having hopefully > looked at > the freebsdmall before even entering this discussion). _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 22:58:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc2-84.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDC714DC6 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA37570; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 15:55:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 15:55:36 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990807155536.A37529@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <2680.934004202@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <2680.934004202@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 at 22:36:42 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The trouble with all of this is problems with the site will be > > reported through the traditional methods, and we're going to have > > to deal with that I suppose. > > So put up an email link for complaints - that's a problem? :) We had links all over and a GNATS category as well. > > I'll help out with any implementation though, however let's get > > it completly working before announcing it again. > > Well, let's start talking CGI then. Who wants to take the next > step? There's a lot of glue between here and slashdot. :) We had some of it done already.. and an admin interface for the people who have 'approval' status to use to ok articles, etc. Tommy did all of that, so he'd be able to give a better idea of what's finished already. - Jim -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: Bringing UNIX to the masses --- http://www.freebsd.org/ - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 23:27:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC9D14C8F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04405; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:24:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Eric A. Griff" Cc: "Bill Fumerola" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Aug 1999 01:45:55 EDT." <00ac01bee098$22750de0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:24:52 -0700 Message-ID: <4401.934007092@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) I think you guys will probably have the best chance for success this time if you proceed initially in 3 stages: 1. Collect a list of "sign me up!" names, appoint somebody to be interim project lead and create a project mailing list or alias. You should also choose that lead for their motivational ability, not necessarily their charisma. :) 2. Sit in a big circle and define your long-term and short term goals. 3. With the project lead organizing, decide who's going to work on what and within which period of time for the short-term goal list. Once you're there, it's pretty straight-forward: Everybody works on their piece(s) and the project lead walks around occasionally tapping people on the shoulders and saying things like "How's it going? Things on schedule? Got enough coffee there?" until you reach your initial short-term goals. Then start again at step 1, also choosing a new project lead if the old one is worn out. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 23:32: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4578014C8F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17920; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908070627.XAA17920@implode.root.com> To: brian@pobox.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:54:08 PDT." <19990807055408.22509.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:27:52 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >c) All I asked for from you was an indication that help would be >welcome in this area - that I wouldn't incur more attacks for >putting forth an offer. Instead, I get more knee-jerk responses >from you - this sure looks like a canned response, not a >reaction to this particular thread. "Ah. It's a >Chucky/Daemon/Beastie thread. Personal insult, cast aspersions." > >If you're going to make this so incredibly hard because you're >so incredibly busy that you haven't time to be civil, why the >hell haven't you delegated the task to someone more able to deal >with people? I've been watching this thread and cringed a little when I read Jordan's first reply. It was pretty clear that it wouldn't be taken well, but it was understandable when you know the history. We really have had numerous people complain about things at length, but nothing ever seems to come of it, except to denigrate the work that others have done. Keep in mind that Jordan and others have been out in front doing the marketing and developing the product for many years and your complaints are viewed by him as attacks and insults against the work he's done. So unless you can put something forward and say "Here, this is better!", then everything you're complaining about sounds like just another off the cuff complaint from the Peanut Gallery. It doesn't matter that you might be one of the world's foremost marketing geniuses, and in fact it probably makes the situation even worse because your complaints would bite deeper. To give an analogy, walking into someone's house and saying that the furniture and decorations really suck is likely not going to get a positive response from your host. Anyway, please try to keep in mind Jordan's perspective (and all of those who have worked to develop and market the product) and understand that his reaction is going to be very human. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 23:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412B9156DD for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA28903; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:42:26 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Eric A. Griff" , Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <4401.934007092@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm supposing that with the demise of the web site, the majordomo lists, that existed for this purpose are gone now as well.. could we get a "official" list for this project? Rob On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) > > I think you guys will probably have the best chance for success this > time if you proceed initially in 3 stages: > > 1. Collect a list of "sign me up!" names, appoint somebody > to be interim project lead and create a project mailing list or > alias. You should also choose that lead for their motivational > ability, not necessarily their charisma. :) > > 2. Sit in a big circle and define your long-term and short term goals. > > 3. With the project lead organizing, decide who's going to work on what > and within which period of time for the short-term goal list. > > Once you're there, it's pretty straight-forward: Everybody works on > their piece(s) and the project lead walks around occasionally tapping > people on the shoulders and saying things like "How's it going? > Things on schedule? Got enough coffee there?" until you reach your > initial short-term goals. Then start again at step 1, also choosing a > new project lead if the old one is worn out. :) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 23:40:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orthos.cadabra.com (orthos.cadabra.com [216.33.7.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E39514E6C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@orthos.cadabra.com) Received: by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix, from userid 972) id E044D1DA009; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthos.cadabra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DD119027; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Preston Wiley To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For what it's worth, I think it's still worth doing it as a separate > site and worth doing it in such a way that "accounts" can be given to > roving reporters and such without having to give them actual Unix > shell accounts and/or CVS commit access. Having to put someone who > only intends on being an occasional (but nonetheless valuable) > journalist though the commiters voting process is just too damn much > overhead for supporting a "slashdot" style site (which I believe is > needed - if it doesn't change at least once every other day, people > stop coming back). I'm actually in the process of making an advocacy site that uses a mysql database and CGI scripts (probably PERL) to display the pages and making various scripts to add and delete data from the database. It would be pretty easy to put the scripts for adding and deleting into a "protected" area require password. Already posted the URL, but here it is again: http://freebsd.tesserae.com It's HTML now, but I'm slowly getting there. :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Preston Wiley Cadabra, Inc. Systems Administrator 1820 Gateway Drive, Suite 300 pwiley@cadabra.com San Mateo, CA 94404 650/403-2227 http://www.cadabra.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Aug 6 23:53:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366F21513C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA28546; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:23:50 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <2472.934002812@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > We're paying attention. :) > > For what it's worth, I think it's still worth doing it as a separate > site and worth doing it in such a way that "accounts" can be given to > roving reporters and such without having to give them actual Unix > shell accounts and/or CVS commit access. Having to put someone who > only intends on being an occasional (but nonetheless valuable) > journalist though the commiters voting process is just too damn much > overhead for supporting a "slashdot" style site (which I believe is > needed - if it doesn't change at least once every other day, people > stop coming back). > > I also don't see people complaining that they're not able to mirror > slashdot, so I think the fears about not having a CVS repository to > put up for remote access are a little unfounded. If it all goes into > a mysql database with a bunch of CGI glue then so be it - as long as > it's visible on a site with reasonable network connectivity, we're > ahead of the game already. > > - Jordan > > > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > > > This way one could go "Oh look at Windows, and all the Microsoft created > > > advocacy" and "Look at FreeBSD, the (non coding) users love it enough to > > > spread the word". And it pisses off core just a little less ;O > > > > -core would have to pay attention in order to get pissed off. > > > > -- > > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > o.k. My ISP keeps screwing with my static IP so, thats why I havent been able to get mail through to the list. What is needed to make this happen is a way of generating static html. dynamically. then the *static* html can be mirrored however. since the static pages would be generated *very* frequently the mirrors would have to update frequently. Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:16:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9029914D82 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA32019; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:13:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <002d01bee0a4$3f0b0de0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Bill Fumerola" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , References: <4401.934007092@localhost> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:12:41 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordan K. Hubbard To: Eric A. Griff Cc: Bill Fumerola ; Jordan K. Hubbard ; Alex Zepeda ; Mike Hoskins ; Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 2:24 AM Subject: Re: advocacy site > > I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) > > I think you guys will probably have the best chance for success this > time if you proceed initially in 3 stages: > > 1. Collect a list of "sign me up!" names, appoint somebody > to be interim project lead and create a project mailing list or > alias. You should also choose that lead for their motivational > ability, not necessarily their charisma. :) Working on... Am making a temporary, interim site (ColdFusion based) for people to post interest, ability, and contact information.. Will post in a short. Will port to cgi later this week, for better use on a FreeBSD machine =) > 2. Sit in a big circle and define your long-term and short term goals. PowWows are cool. Pass the pipe, talk inter trible relations, etc. =) Just kidding.. Virtual Circles are neat =) > 3. With the project lead organizing, decide who's going to work on what > and within which period of time for the short-term goal list. Suppose this get's decided while making peace =) > Once you're there, it's pretty straight-forward: Everybody works on > their piece(s) and the project lead walks around occasionally tapping > people on the shoulders and saying things like "How's it going? > Things on schedule? Got enough coffee there?" until you reach your > initial short-term goals. Then start again at step 1, also choosing a > new project lead if the old one is worn out. :) > > - Jordan > Their enough $$ around to fund Coffee? =) Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:16:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25CF14F79 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA32025; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:14:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <003501bee0a4$7c73e120$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "eagle" Cc: References: Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:14:27 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: eagle To: Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: Eric A. Griff ; Bill Fumerola ; Alex Zepeda ; Mike Hoskins ; Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 2:42 AM Subject: Re: advocacy site > I'm supposing that with the demise of the web site, the majordomo lists, > that existed for this purpose are gone now as well.. > > could we get a "official" list for this project? > > Rob Hmm, how did I see this message, and you get the reply? Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:19:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312FF14D82 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA29831; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:28:31 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle To: "Eric A. Griff" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <003501bee0a4$7c73e120$c100000a@cfpower.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There was at one time a mailing list specifically for the advo site.. not this one Rob On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Eric A. Griff wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: eagle > To: Jordan K. Hubbard > Cc: Eric A. Griff ; Bill Fumerola > ; Alex Zepeda ; Mike Hoskins > ; > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 2:42 AM > Subject: Re: advocacy site > > > > I'm supposing that with the demise of the web site, the majordomo lists, > > that existed for this purpose are gone now as well.. > > > > could we get a "official" list for this project? > > > > Rob > > Hmm, how did I see this message, and you get the reply? > > Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com > setjmp Software Your source for custom > 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. > Suite 504 > Utica, NY 13501 > ICQ# 28146852 > Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 > Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:34: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EC714F32 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04609; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: brian@pobox.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:54:08 PDT." <19990807055408.22509.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 00:31:49 -0700 Message-ID: <4605.934011109@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > a) If helping people help you is such a burden, have some of > these people you've helped along help the next people. Those people should always feel free to step forward, but please also bear in mind the fact that we seem to get flack when core *doesn't* respond to things like this personally and so it's really a lose-lose situation with that particular solution. I imagine this particular member of core could stand to be a little more generous in his own assumptions when responding to such things, however. > b) You never ASKED for my qualifications. Instead you assumed I > was a yutz and began making personal attacks. I never assumed or said that you were a yutz any more than I assumed or said that you were a rocket scientist, and I think we're somewhat in disagreement when it comes to defining a "personal attack" as well. To my way of thinking, a personal attack would have been to state outright that your parentage was suspect or that your entire existence was a waste of perfectly good organic molecules or anything else not dealing with the points you raised and instead shifting entirely to you, the person. Perhaps some of the analogies I drew were harshly drawn, but at all times what I've sought to "attack" have been your IDEAS and/or the manner in which you chose to present them, not you, Mr. Brian McGroarty, as a person. To state this further, if I can not be in vehement disagreement with you over some set of issues without you taking that disagreement as a personal attack then we're truly in trouble as far as our future communications go, and far more trouble than any that might be caused by my "inability to deal with people" or a lack of "civility." I put those words in quotes because these are also mailing lists with a lot of engineers on them and engineers are not known or even particularly valued for their subtlety - if they think your code or your ideas suck, they'll say so and be done with it, nothing personal and all that. I didn't like the way you raised some of your points, I didn't like the fact that you were rehashing old recycled topics without adding anything particularly new that I could see (at least from my perspective at the moment), I particularly didn't like the attack on the imagery (rescinded or not) since I personally regard that whole debate as a truly singular waste of time and energy, but that still has NOTHING to do with how I feel about you personally and if I met you next week at some conference, I'd be the first to buy you a beer, shoot you a grin and say "So, how are those articles you're writing coming along, Brian?", just as I'd do with someone I'd just finished having some mutual love-fest with in another mailing list. I don't take strong disagreement with my points of view personally and you honestly shouldn't either, especially when it comes to disagreements expressed via email since you can't read my facial expressions or hear my tone of voice and the same holds true for any emails you send. > I've participated in the production of nearly 20 software > products for companies such as Microsoft, Midway, Interplay, > Atari and Lego Media and have had involvement in marketing and > production work for the Chicago Bulls, High Voltage Software, > GNB Battery and numerous smaller clients. Well, now that's a very impressive resume' and certainly one which helps to differentiate you from the more run-of-the-mill advocates who suggest publically or privately everything from FreeBSD condoms (smooth or ribbed I dunno, they usually don't go into detail) to latex daemon-suits with horns, modelled in our catalog by none other than Michelle Pfeiffer herself, of course. All fine(?) ideas in their own right but not very practical when stacked against all the other promotional items we could be spending money on and, hopefully, making enough back on to not go broke in the process. In any case, given that you now know where some of the hot-buttons for us are (the daemon stays, etc.), what would you suggest as the next retail packaging improvement, understanding also, of course, the fact that we have a limited range of product to offer and can only package it in so many ways? In terms of CD products there's the 6 CD FreeBSD toolkit, the 4 CD base product and the occasional developer's 2 CD snapshot. In terms of "other" items, we have FreeBSD stickers, case plate icons, T-shirts in various sizes and colors, polo shirts, denim jackets, baseball caps, mousepads (new), stainless steel "starbucks style" coffee mugs (new), stuffed daemon plushes (various sizes), and one FreeBSD book. Not all of these items are practical for most channel partners, of course, I list them merely for completeness's sake. The only "bundle" we currently offer is the book+base product+toolkit, known as the "FreeBSD Power Pak" (I'm not in love with that name but have no truly better suggestions to offer the sales department so I can't really complain, either), the rough appearance of which can be seen at http://www.freebsdmall.com/software/#bsdpak (though the box is somewhat more substantial than its image indicates). Long planned but not yet done is some sort of "desktop pro" bundle with Applixware for FreeBSD (done) and at least one other thing to round it out. Some desktop product which just hasn't been ported or written yet, perhaps, or a book on using FreeBSD especially on the desktop, listing what sorts of applications to get and whatever other nifty bits of information might be germin to the desktop user, that would complete the bundle for us. Even more nebulous is the "Server pro" bundle, one of the original components being an SSL capable web server which has now been somewhat overshadowed by its freeware counterparts and making it less desirable as a cost item. That leaves us with a very empty plate for the Server Pro bundle at the moment. :) We're also not total yutzs ourselves, it should be pointed out, and we're now into retail channels like Ingram and CompUSA, with plans to expand much more aggressively into Japan and China than we have previously (not to mention Europe). While I can't disclose actual sales figures, I can say that the graph is still climbing nicely and there have been quite a few PowerPak sitings at major chain stores now that we finally got into the large channels. Perhaps we can reap the benefits of being a fairly unique product amongst the sea of Linux products one typically finds there, and perhaps with the aid of your WELCOME ideas in the areas of packaging, imagerly and advertising we can do even better. You've gotten my attention and I'm all ears, the sincerity of that statement hopefully born out by the level of detail I've taken pains to include in this message. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:37: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BE614F32 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04633; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: eagle Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Eric A. Griff" , Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Aug 1999 02:42:26 EDT." Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 00:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4630.934011225@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm supposing that with the demise of the web site, the majordomo lists, > that existed for this purpose are gone now as well.. The web site never demised. It's still there and Jim Mock and I have been talking about what to do with it ever since the switch was thrown. All that's been removed is a *single CNAME* for advocacy.freebsd.org, that being an easily reversable procedure should the time come for it. - Jordan > > could we get a "official" list for this project? > > Rob > > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) > > > > I think you guys will probably have the best chance for success this > > time if you proceed initially in 3 stages: > > > > 1. Collect a list of "sign me up!" names, appoint somebody > > to be interim project lead and create a project mailing list or > > alias. You should also choose that lead for their motivational > > ability, not necessarily their charisma. :) > > > > 2. Sit in a big circle and define your long-term and short term goals. > > > > 3. With the project lead organizing, decide who's going to work on what > > and within which period of time for the short-term goal list. > > > > Once you're there, it's pretty straight-forward: Everybody works on > > their piece(s) and the project lead walks around occasionally tapping > > people on the shoulders and saying things like "How's it going? > > Things on schedule? Got enough coffee there?" until you reach your > > initial short-term goals. Then start again at step 1, also choosing a > > new project lead if the old one is worn out. :) > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:39: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA4C14F32 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04656; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Eric A. Griff" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Bill Fumerola" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Aug 1999 03:12:41 EDT." <002d01bee0a4$3f0b0de0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 00:36:02 -0700 Message-ID: <4653.934011362@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Their enough $$ around to fund Coffee? =) You guys make even a big dent in this one and I'll buy you all the coffee beans you want. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 0:43:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from host.phc.igs.net (host.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AF614C80 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@host.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by host.phc.igs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA03702; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:47:48 -0400 (EDT) From: eagle To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Eric A. Griff" , Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <4630.934011225@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG O.K. I tried to login to usw4, and couldnt but then i cant ping ftp.cdrom.com at this point either.. everything is dead past windsor on onet. Rob On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm supposing that with the demise of the web site, the majordomo lists, > > that existed for this purpose are gone now as well.. > > The web site never demised. It's still there and Jim Mock and I have > been talking about what to do with it ever since the switch was > thrown. All that's been removed is a *single CNAME* for > advocacy.freebsd.org, that being an easily reversable procedure should > the time come for it. > > - Jordan > > > > > could we get a "official" list for this project? > > > > Rob > > > > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > I'm game.... Where do I signup? =) > > > > > > I think you guys will probably have the best chance for success this > > > time if you proceed initially in 3 stages: > > > > > > 1. Collect a list of "sign me up!" names, appoint somebody > > > to be interim project lead and create a project mailing list or > > > alias. You should also choose that lead for their motivational > > > ability, not necessarily their charisma. :) > > > > > > 2. Sit in a big circle and define your long-term and short term goals. > > > > > > 3. With the project lead organizing, decide who's going to work on what > > > and within which period of time for the short-term goal list. > > > > > > Once you're there, it's pretty straight-forward: Everybody works on > > > their piece(s) and the project lead walks around occasionally tapping > > > people on the shoulders and saying things like "How's it going? > > > Things on schedule? Got enough coffee there?" until you reach your > > > initial short-term goals. Then start again at step 1, also choosing a > > > new project lead if the old one is worn out. :) > > > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:11:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF9C14DC3; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21016; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:55:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:55:11 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Nik Clayton , Jim Mock , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) Message-ID: <19990807085511.C20112@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990806112413.A38499@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:41:38PM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:41:38PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Note that simply having the mirrors pull the content off the central > > database is not, IMHO, acceptable. This removes most of the advantages > > of mirroring the site, as we then have (a) a single point of failure > > that can bring down all the mirrors, and (b) the page will still only > > appear as fast as the connection between the mirror site and the > > central database. This completely destroys the usefulness of the > > mirrors. > > Good DBAs address these problems with replication. Yep. Which limits our choice of DBs that can do this (I don't know if Postgres or MySQL can, anybody?). Also, this process (ideally) needs to be efficient. Hopefully about as efficient as CVSup with the same content would be. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:14:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A0E14DC3 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20433; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:50:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:50:29 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990807085029.A20112@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <2472.934002812@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <2472.934002812@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 10:13:32PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 10:13:32PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > only intends on being an occasional (but nonetheless valuable) > journalist though the commiters voting process is just too damn much > overhead for supporting a "slashdot" style site (which I believe is > needed - if it doesn't change at least once every other day, people > stop coming back). You've pretty much described www.freebsdrocks.com. If this is the sort of site that people want then this discussion should probably be directed at that site's maintainers. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:15:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AD115752 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20801; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:53:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:53:28 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mike Hoskins , Seth , Alex Zepeda , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Donald Wilde , Gregory Sutter , Jim Mock Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990807085328.B20112@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <1827.933990826@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <1827.933990826@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 06:53:46PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 06:53:46PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > One thing I noticed today (this is not advocacy-related, but along a > > similar thread, I think...), is Handbook sections that are 'Under > > Construction', so to speak... Is this to say anyone willing to write up > > missing section(s) can do so (with the appropriate expertise and approval, > > of course)? If so, to whom may these submissions be made? > > No approval necessary - just do it! :-) You can submit your new > chapters with send-pr or, alternatively, perhaps just emailing them > directly to Nik. Anyone filling in an *'d section of the handbook > will be strongly encouraged! Indeed. But *please* use send-pr(1). I suffer from occasional bouts of overwork which means I go through stages of reading my e-mail, nodding sagely, thinking "Yep, great submission", and then it takes me a couple of weeks to do anything about it. If you use send-pr(1) then the increasing number of Doc. Proj. committers can tackle it as well, making it much more likely that your submission gets seen to. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:17:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC72A155B2 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA35246; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:14:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <005d01bee0ac$e423a2d0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Bill Fumerola" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , References: <4653.934011362@localhost> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:14:31 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordan K. Hubbard To: Eric A. Griff Cc: Jordan K. Hubbard ; Bill Fumerola ; Alex Zepeda ; Mike Hoskins ; Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 3:36 AM Subject: Re: advocacy site > > Their enough $$ around to fund Coffee? =) > > You guys make even a big dent in this one and I'll buy you all the > coffee beans you want. :) > > - Jordan Problem is, we need more than a dent.. We need a couple of Major Players.. That may not be as hard as it sounds though.. They are all over the place.. All we need to do to get a running start, is a couple willing to run.. Ones with huge mailing lists, and lot of hits on there sites, that are vocal. Or promote to their various Alliance Partners (becoming a big word now). Writers watch these ones, cause they can get plenty of ideas to write one.. One thing, case in point, I noticed, are that platforms (middleware) that have built a large developer public support base tend to be there louder.. Seems a few of them lately have found this linux craze. Unfortunatly I haven't had time to watch a lot of them (mostly Allaire), though have watched them turn from a mediocre CD laying around the office, and a mediocre site, into a fast becomming hot spot. Partially cause of a good web strategy, and partially cause of their large public (free) forumns, and Libraries. I litterly hated CF ver 2.0.. 3.1 I still hated it, but it was tollerable.. I complained about a number of them to various people, and the forumns, and last fall, 4.0 fixed most (80%) of them.. Many were functionality, and server configerability issues. Another strategy they have is partnering w/others.. There is a large base tool for approaching them.. Again, hate to keep kicking this one out, though they are the largest Example Corporation doing Middleware now, that I have followed for some time, and watched there trend points.. I'm sure there are many more of these that could be worked on, and I'm sure there are a number of people reading this msg that could give as much detail about others... We need a lot of dynamic input stuff.. Making it easy for people to upload this info, and make it easy (browser based) to approve, and spit back out the results into the public.. Hate to quote M$ (I think it's their's), but "At the speed of Business" is a keyword.. If it's considerable work to do something simple, people just won't do it.. That's what bill gates built with point and click.. Executives move at the same speed... As do the sysadmin at the local ISP, and the user at home buying there new Toilet Paper Dispensor on store.yahoo.com.. Hehe. I wanna video of Chucky saying "Everythings done, so now where do you want to go today?". Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:17:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20109155DA; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA35264; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:16:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <006701bee0ad$2ed7a100$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Nik Clayton" , "Bill Fumerola" Cc: "Nik Clayton" , "Jim Mock" , References: <19990806112413.A38499@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <19990807085511.C20112@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:16:42 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Nik Clayton To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Nik Clayton ; Jim Mock ; Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 3:55 AM Subject: Re: followup: advocacy.freebsd.org (fwd) > On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 12:41:38PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > Note that simply having the mirrors pull the content off the central > > > database is not, IMHO, acceptable. This removes most of the advantages > > > of mirroring the site, as we then have (a) a single point of failure > > > that can bring down all the mirrors, and (b) the page will still only > > > appear as fast as the connection between the mirror site and the > > > central database. This completely destroys the usefulness of the > > > mirrors. > > > > Good DBAs address these problems with replication. We could implement interval updates to other databases too... IE, use something, like cvsup, and mysqldump.... Lot of ways.... mysqldump is pretty quick.. > > Yep. Which limits our choice of DBs that can do this (I don't know if > Postgres or MySQL can, anybody?). > > Also, this process (ideally) needs to be efficient. Hopefully about as > efficient as CVSup with the same content would be. > > N > -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 1:23: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D2514BF9; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05022; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy site In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:50:29 BST." <19990807085029.A20112@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 01:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: <5018.934014167@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You've pretty much described www.freebsdrocks.com. Almost. What I see advocacy.freebsd.org being, however, is something just a bit more "official" in that it tries to archive things like advocacy guides, canned presentations, promotional imagery and other advocacy resources, one significant one being a "news" service. It's the news pages and dynamic advocacy guide material which I figure will require the intervention of a database to make more easily manageable than CVS and shell accounts would be. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 2: 8:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C99214FC8; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 02:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA35367; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 05:07:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <001001bee0b4$3b2be4a0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Reply-To: "Eric A. Griff" From: "Eric A. Griff" To: "Nik Clayton" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Bill Fumerola" , "Alex Zepeda" , "Mike Hoskins" , References: <5018.934014167@localhost> Subject: Re: advocacy site Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 05:07:08 -0400 Organization: CFPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You've pretty much described www.freebsdrocks.com. > > Almost. What I see advocacy.freebsd.org being, however, is something > just a bit more "official" in that it tries to archive things like > advocacy guides, canned presentations, promotional imagery and other > advocacy resources, one significant one being a "news" service. It's > the news pages and dynamic advocacy guide material which I figure will > require the intervention of a database to make more easily manageable > than CVS and shell accounts would be. > > - Jordan > More dynamic.. For example, the lines on the front page (Red Heading\nPlaintext) could easily be done in a script right from a database: IE SELECT * FROM advHeadlines ORDER BY timStamp WHERE active; Then

$headline

$content
Or even in a table. In C? They're not that hard to do.. MySQL is pretty Interfacable now. The API is workable, and beats the crap out of Netapi32.dll from Win32 =) Or the DAO/RDO stuff.. Well, they are kinda simple for base functionality, though creating a class makes it easier, and very C++ like. Jordy, there any kind mass brainstorming lists laying around? Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 4:31:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A0114FC9 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA35629 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:28:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Message-ID: <000f01bee0c7$f17ce340$c100000a@cfpower.com> From: "Eric A. Griff" To: Subject: Some links I pulled off of Intelligence. Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:28:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, Some linux stuff here, good/bad.. What's needed to get these covered in FreeBSD? Any throws? =) http://www.intelligence.com/detail.asp?id=zz57517 http://www.intelligence.com/detail.asp?id=zz57472 From fridays mailing.. Eric A. Griff , http://www.setjmp.com setjmp Software Your source for custom 181 Genesee Street Software Solutions. Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 ICQ# 28146852 Office: (315) 734-1668 Extension 205 Home: (315) 495-2385 (seldom) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 4:41: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5540814FC9 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 04:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Received: from Apophis (eric@[10.0.0.193]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA35649 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:37:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@setjmp.com) Message-ID: <006201bee0c9$373fa9c0$c100000a@cfpower.com> From: "Eric A. Griff" To: Subject: Intelligence Presence... Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:37:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG =) , I'm gonna feel out what it might take to pull some attention on intelligence.com .. --------------------------------------- Linux --------------------------------------- Vendors to tout new servers, releases at LinuxWorld (InfoWorld) http://www.intelligence.com/detail.asp?id=zz57472 Linux Undergoes E-Commerce Test (InternetWeek) http://www.intelligence.com/detail.asp?id=zz57517 From the Friday emailing (developers Daily NewsLetter). What Tidbits can we have straight out of LinuxWorld that I might try to get forwarded to John Dhabolt (maintainer of www.intelligence.com)? Anyone care to get a list going of who'll be there? Do that, and make a smash, and I'll drive out to Cambridge if needed to get it posted there.. Right now, there are a few more links there than a few weeks ago.. http://www.intelligence.com/company.asp?id=2413 and http://www.intelligence.com/product.asp?id=5539 Shit, surprised me.. Last time it was only the FreeBSD Inc. Link =) Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 12:33:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wenet.net (pm3-23.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F3714C37 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by wenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00853; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:32:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: "Eric A. Griff" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site In-Reply-To: <001001bee0b4$3b2be4a0$c100000a@cfpower.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Eric A. Griff wrote: > More dynamic.. For example, the lines on the front page (Red > Heading\nPlaintext) could easily be done in a script right from a database: > IE > > SELECT * FROM advHeadlines ORDER BY timStamp WHERE active; > > Then

$headline

$content
> > Or even in a table. > > In C? They're not that hard to do.. MySQL is pretty Interfacable now. > The API is workable, and beats the crap out of Netapi32.dll from Win32 =) > Or the DAO/RDO stuff.. Well, they are kinda simple for base functionality, > though creating a class makes it easier, and very C++ like. This strikes me as the type of thing that embperl (perl.apache.org) could be used for. If they are just headlines, a flat text file could be used and simply rotated into a directory of static html files when it's considered old. So that you have: old-headlines/yy/mm/dd/contents.html and so forth. Even easier to mirror would be some SSI so that a straight up executable could be used (such as a perl script) and thus put very few demands on what the server has installed. > Jordy, there any kind mass brainstorming lists laying around? I think, this is what the advocacy list is for if I'm not mistaken :^) - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 13:49:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8654C14C48 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA14723; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:14:09 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Bill Fumerola , Alex Zepeda , Mike Hoskins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy site Message-ID: <19990807031409.A14679@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <2680.934004202@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <2680.934004202@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 10:36:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 10:36:42PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The trouble with all of this is problems with the site will be reported > > through the traditional methods, and we're going to have to deal with > > that I suppose. > > So put up an email link for complaints - that's a problem? :) > > > I'll help out with any implementation though, however let's get it > > completly working before announcing it again. > > Well, let's start talking CGI then. Who wants to take the next step? > There's a lot of glue between here and slashdot. :) I have lately been fooling around with the slashdot tools on my job. I can report that the version that is avaiable for download off the Slashdot site is _ALPHA_ code. Getting the code running right is a pain. If someone could persuade the slashdot people to release a new version it would make life a little easier. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 18:53:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1003.mail.yahoo.com (web1003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E449614CDE for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990808015259.16336.rocketmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1003.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 18:52:59 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD / FreeBSD as a pr To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG When you stated my motivation for tackling the packaging issue was one of wanting to score a quick, cheap "win," I took that as a personal insult. I see things got a bit out of hand with the inclusion of the Daemon issue, and I understand you do indeed put up with a good number of hecklers and well-intending do-nothings. Please give me the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm neither here, and please accept my apology for running as long with this as I did. I'm often more stubborn than I need to be; even if it's not the most pleasant approach, often that's what it takes to get things done. --- "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > To my way of thinking, a personal attack would have been to > state > outright that your parentage was suspect or that your entire > existence > was a waste of perfectly good organic molecules or anything > else not > dealing with the points you raised and instead shifting > entirely to > you, the person. Perhaps some of the analogies I drew were > harshly > drawn, but at all times what I've sought to "attack" have been > your > IDEAS and/or the manner in which you chose to present them, > not you, > Mr. Brian McGroarty, as a person. > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 19:30:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1003.mail.yahoo.com (web1003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A43514D22 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990808022930.19708.rocketmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1003.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 19:29:30 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Marketing / Alternate packaging To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start religions. Releasing -pro, -server, -workstation, etc bundles is exciting for those already running FreeBSD, but carries little extra marketing value for a consumer seeing the package for the first time. UnknownX-Pro, UnknownX-PowerPack, UnknownX-Server. Flash is less important than a raw bargain for established users, so I'll leave suggestions on what to include to people who know far better than I. As an aside, it's criminal that McKusick's course tapes aren't available through the FreeBSD mall. They're expensive, but I've got a couple already, and these are -invaluable- for someone really wanting to learn the OS. I'd also suggest the new O'Reilly MySQL book, Design and Implementation of BSD 4.4 and Jolitz's existing and upcoming books. Seeing a range of documentation available is reassuring. Back to the previous - I'm particularly interested in how to produce a package which is attractive to someone who's never seen FreeBSD and is coming from Linux or more conventional OS backgrounds. For this, the packaging needs to promise that: o The user will not fight a battle to get the OS going. The inclusion the handbook is a huge plus here. I've seen editions with and without the man pages in back, effectively doubling the size of the book: an installation book should be thin and unintimidating. o The user will be able to do everything with FreeBSD that they can do with their existing OS. Screen shots of koffice, gimp, Netscape, kdevelop and kicq speak volumes more than a bullet list. o The user will be able to do something exciting and new. Show FreeBSD TV, a music package, large letters declaring that the user can "Run your own secure FTP server" "Share internet access across multiple PCs" "Includes WWW Server" "All source included!" o Promise that the user can do something new or differently with FreeBSD and FreeBSD -only-. I'd really love to see everyone's input on this point. See my next post. --- "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > it in so many ways? In terms of CD products there's the 6 CD > FreeBSD > toolkit, the 4 CD base product and the occasional developer's > 2 CD > snapshot. In terms of "other" items, we have FreeBSD > stickers, case > plate icons, T-shirts in various sizes and colors, polo > shirts, denim > jackets, baseball caps, mousepads (new), stainless steel > "starbucks > style" coffee mugs (new), stuffed daemon plushes (various > sizes), and > one FreeBSD book. Not all of these items are practical for > most > channel partners, of course, I list them merely for > completeness's > sake. > > The only "bundle" we currently offer is the book+base > product+toolkit, > known as the "FreeBSD Power Pak" (I'm not in love with that > name but > have no truly better suggestions to offer the sales department > so I > can't really complain, either), the rough appearance of which > can be > seen at http://www.freebsdmall.com/software/#bsdpak (though > the box is > somewhat more substantial than its image indicates). Long > planned but > not yet done is some sort of "desktop pro" bundle with > Applixware for > FreeBSD (done) and at least one other thing to round it out. > Some > desktop product which just hasn't been ported or written yet, > perhaps, > or a book on using FreeBSD especially on the desktop, listing > what > sorts of applications to get and whatever other nifty bits of > information might be germin to the desktop user, that would > complete > the bundle for us. Even more nebulous is the "Server pro" > bundle, one > of the original components being an SSL capable web server > which has > now been somewhat overshadowed by its freeware counterparts > and making > it less desirable as a cost item. That leaves us with a very > empty > plate for the Server Pro bundle at the moment. :) > > We're also not total yutzs ourselves, it should be pointed > out, and > we're now into retail channels like Ingram and CompUSA, with > plans to > expand much more aggressively into Japan and China than we > have > previously (not to mention Europe). While I can't disclose > actual > sales figures, I can say that the graph is still climbing > nicely and > there have been quite a few PowerPak sitings at major chain > stores now > that we finally got into the large channels. Perhaps we can > reap the > benefits of being a fairly unique product amongst the sea of > Linux > products one typically finds there, and perhaps with the aid > of your > WELCOME ideas in the areas of packaging, imagerly and > advertising we > can do even better. You've gotten my attention and I'm all > ears, the > sincerity of that statement hopefully born out by the level of > detail > I've taken pains to include in this message. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20: 0:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1001.mail.yahoo.com (web1001.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A15414CD0 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990808025724.13926.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1001.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 19:57:24 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD is often seen as a Linux also-ran, or even another Linux distribution. It's not. And we know that. It's -advocacy's task to make this clear to the rest of the world. Differentiating FreeBSD from the other operating systems available is of paramount importance. Let's brainstorm a list of strengths and assets. No idea is intially rejected. I'll collect the rough responses and create a list to pick apart. We can formulate strategy based on that. o Run forever. Uptimes of months are the norm. o Performance. Over 20 years of research, design and optimization backing the Intel and DEC-Alpha cores o Internet-secure. Fewer security issues than any other popular OS. o Compatible. Run Linux apps. Network with Windows and Mac. Read and write hundreds of file formats with included software. o Proven and Trusted. Yahoo!, Walnut Creek, and even Microsoft use FreeBSD o Cost-effective. No licensing fees. Scalable from 386s to SMP Pentium/Xeon machines. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20:11: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcon.com.au (firewall.bbcon.com.au [203.28.19.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B80F14CCA for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from office.bbcon.com.au (stargate [10.0.0.1]) by bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA04068; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:11:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by office.bbcon.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14699; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:09:05 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:09:04 +1000 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home Reply-To: Joel Sutton To: brian@pobox.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ADV] Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990808025724.13926.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > Let's brainstorm a list of strengths and assets. No idea is > intially rejected. I'll collect the rough responses and create a > list to pick apart. We can formulate strategy based on that. how about: o email support responses usually within a couple of hours o can run a number of "industry standard" packages such as Samba, Apache, Bind, Sendmail, Qmail etc.. (drop some names instead of just saying "the ports collection") What does FreeBSD run that Linux doesn't??? Could that be an alternative approach? Back to you... Cheers, Joel... --- Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting Phone: (0409) 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20:17:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aeolus.conio.net (ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com [24.4.122.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66FF714CCA for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@conio.net) Received: (qmail 8238 invoked from network); 8 Aug 1999 03:19:55 -0000 Received: from ci221559-b.grnvle1.sc.home.com (HELO thanatos) (24.4.122.130) by ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 1999 03:19:55 -0000 From: "Sam Stephenson" To: , Subject: Re: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:21:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <19990808025724.13926.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Let's brainstorm a list of strengths and assets. No idea is > intially rejected. I'll collect the rough responses and create a > list to pick apart. We can formulate strategy based on that. FreeBSD's ``make world'' comes to mind. Oh, and don't forget the ability to update the source tree with one cvsup command. --Sam Stephenson sam@conio.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20:21: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aeolus.conio.net (ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com [24.4.122.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C1BEC14CCA for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:20:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@conio.net) Received: (qmail 8258 invoked from network); 8 Aug 1999 03:25:18 -0000 Received: from ci221559-b.grnvle1.sc.home.com (HELO thanatos) (24.4.122.130) by ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 1999 03:25:18 -0000 From: "Sam Stephenson" To: , Subject: RE: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:27:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <19990808025724.13926.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > o Run forever. Uptimes of months are the norm. Stability seems to be one of the Linux community's favorite claims. We first must prove (or attempt to prove) that FreeBSD is more stable than Linux -- perhaps by pointing out that kernel updates are nowhere near as often as Linux's four-times-a-week? > o Internet-secure. Fewer security issues than any other popular > OS. We might sound a little pretentious here, since OpenBSD's emphasis is on strong security. But that's just a thought. --Sam Stephenson sam@conio.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20:45:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com (web1005.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1736914D52 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990808034218.13104.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 20:42:18 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Marketing / Media Strategy To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just as jumping into code production without design is the formula for chaos and later back-tracking, lack of strategy in media dealings yields very little reward for tremendous amounts of effort expended. 1: We need to decide who we are trying to reach with what message. PLEASE give me feedback on the following; I'll initially propose: Technical: FreeBSD is stable FreeBSD is secure Learning FreeBSD means big $$$ Education: FreeBSD represents the forefront in free OS development FreeBSD is the next big thing Business: FreeBSD has the lowest TCO FreeBSD represents countless new opportunities Mainstream Press: Flavor: What Torvalds has been doing for 5 years, this team has been doing for 20. Definition: FreeBSD is not Linux. Hype: FreeBSD 4.0 is coming - Kiss your Windows goodbye Retail: FreeBSD 4.0 is going to explode in a shower of confetti whenever a customer glances its way. People are going to flock to you for copies for FreeBSD 4.0 All: FreeBSD is different. (See previous post) 2: We need a smooth, efficient system for press release delivery and a quick way of deciding who should receive what. Is there an existing contact database? I'm willing to begin work on this, but I need to know if I'm extending something we've got or starting something new. 3: We need advance planning from here straight through 4.0's release. The release of a new major version number is a valuable marketing asset. We need to be sure we don't get the hype machine started too soon and lose momentum before release. If we can have a steady flow two months prior to release, one in general media, and if we can have media swamped by the time 4.0 has been available a month, we can all be VERY proud. How can we make a press timeline available to -advocacy members without putting something sensitive on the main site? 4: We need a press site. The existing list of press releases and pointers to mentions in the press is nice. But we need clip art, including a large logo, pictures of the Daemon, key developers and screenshots. We need capsule summaries of FreeBSD and its best assets. And we need a series of brief outlines which hint at story ideas. You'd be surprised how few journalists' ideas are actually their own. They have deadlines like the rest of us, and feeding and nurturing ideas helps immeasurably. Respond with pointers to what we've already got and I'll refine the list, start the above outlines and we'll have a suitable starter collection. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 20:49:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web1003.mail.yahoo.com (web1003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D191014BDE for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:49:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bvmcg@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990808034633.27881.rocketmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.29.199.43] by web1003.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 20:46:33 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian McGroarty Reply-To: brian@pobox.com Subject: Re: [ADV] Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD To: Joel Sutton , brian@pobox.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD-Questions is a point I -completely- forgot when composing the packaging list. We can realistically advertise -LIFETIME SUPPORT- as the support list is completely FreeBSD sponsored. Everyone else offers a month and then wants a first-born per incident if I remember correctly. ;) Slam dunk! Thanks, Joel =) --- Joel Sutton wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > > > Let's brainstorm a list of strengths and assets. No idea is > > intially rejected. I'll collect the rough responses and > create a > > list to pick apart. We can formulate strategy based on that. > > how about: > > o email support responses usually within a couple of hours > > o can run a number of "industry standard" packages such as > Samba, Apache, > Bind, Sendmail, Qmail etc.. (drop some names instead of just > saying > "the ports collection") > > What does FreeBSD run that Linux doesn't??? Could that be an > alternative > approach? > > Back to you... > > Cheers, Joel... _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 21:34:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from beach.silcom.com (beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F4014C56 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from smarter.than.nu (pm0-14.vpop1.avtel.net [207.71.237.14]) by beach.silcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDDE232; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:33:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Sam Stephenson Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Sam Stephenson wrote: > > o Run forever. Uptimes of months are the norm. > > Stability seems to be one of the Linux community's favorite claims. We > first must prove (or attempt to prove) that FreeBSD is more stable than > Linux -- perhaps by pointing out that kernel updates are nowhere near as > often as Linux's four-times-a-week? I fail to see what the frequency of kernel updates has to do with stability. And FreeBSD's kernel updates are *hourly* if you use CVSup. I've never heard anyone say that Linux is more stable than FreeBSD, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence the other way around, but no good studies to support this. > > o Internet-secure. Fewer security issues than any other popular > > OS. > > We might sound a little pretentious here, since OpenBSD's emphasis is on > strong security. But that's just a thought. If I'm recalling correctly, OpenBSD's had a root compromise bug more recently than we have. They talk big, but I don't think there's a significant difference in security between an out of the box FreeBSD system and out of the box OpenBSD system, or between hardened systems of each OS. -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 21:40:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aeolus.conio.net (ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com [24.4.122.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D4C314DCF for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@conio.net) Received: (qmail 8404 invoked from network); 8 Aug 1999 04:43:52 -0000 Received: from ci221559-b.grnvle1.sc.home.com (HELO thanatos) (24.4.122.130) by ci221559-a.grnvle1.sc.home.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 1999 04:43:52 -0000 From: "Sam Stephenson" To: "Brian W. Buchanan" Cc: Subject: Re: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 00:45:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > o Run forever. Uptimes of months are the norm. > > > > Stability seems to be one of the Linux community's favorite claims. We > > first must prove (or attempt to prove) that FreeBSD is more stable than > > Linux -- perhaps by pointing out that kernel updates are nowhere near as > > often as Linux's four-times-a-week? > > I fail to see what the frequency of kernel updates has to do with > stability. And FreeBSD's kernel updates are *hourly* if you use CVSup. > I've never heard anyone say that Linux is more stable than FreeBSD, and > there's a lot of anecdotal evidence the other way around, but no good > studies to support this. What I meant was it's hard for a Linux user to stay current with the frequent kernel changes and releases. A FreeBSD user wanting to stay current (assuming current to him is the -RELEASE tree) needs only to upgrade every few months. --Sam Stephenson sam@conio.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 7 23:13:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771DF14D6B for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:13:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Received: from localhost (dburr@localhost) by 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17076; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr To: brian@pobox.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing / Differentiating FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990808025724.13926.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's a few more... o Ease of updates. Everything canb e rebuilt with one simple command (make world). All sources are fully integrated and in one source tree (/usr/src). No running around getting Piece A from Site A, Piece B from Site B, etc. to update (as is the norm on Linux). o The ports and packages collection. Hundreds of already configured, ready to run applications available with just one install command. Just as easy to build them yourself if you don't trust the pre-packaged versions (or want to build them with your own optimizations, etc.) o Stable hardware support. Becuase of the development model, you are assured that drivers that are committed to the tree have been tested. No "kernel of the hour" syndrome (unless you track CURRENT, that is :) and even there it's a LOT better than Linux) o Centralized bug tracking and support network. send-pr is included in every distribution, and the bug database is centralized. So is support (the FREEBSD.ORG mailing lists). o Support for much esoteric hardware. TV tuners and video frame grabbers, data acqusition boards, ISDN, ATM, Gigabit Ethernet, CD-R/CD-RW/DVD-RAM drives (even ATAPI CD-R/CD-RW's), etc. o Great as a research or reference platform. All source code included, FreeBSD grew up in a university setting, etc. o Easily embeddable with no strings attached. Unlike Linux and its GPL. Donald Burr WEB: http://www.Powered-By.AC/ PO Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 Tel:(805)957-9666 FAX:(800)492-5954 Member and software developer with The FreBSD Project - http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ *** FreeBSD *** A FREE, 32 Bit UNIX OS for PC's -- The Power to Serve! On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Brian McGroarty wrote: > Let's brainstorm a list of strengths and assets. No idea is > intially rejected. I'll collect the rough responses and create a > [...] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message