From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 00:45:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles325.castles.com [208.214.167.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19728 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:45:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05140; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199901170841.AAA05140@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV [please take to -chat] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:59:07 CST." <199901162259.QAA28290@unix.tfs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:41:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > because you are not american, you probably do not understand the > meaning of what was said. what was said was a first step in the > process. Actually, non-Americans tend to pay more attention to the blatant imperialism of country than most of your citizens do. > in our country we tend to treat criminals as such, and in most of our > states, those who aid criminals are no different from the criminal > himself, by law. By labelling them "criminals" you are presupposing that your interpretation is the only valid one. This is another farily American response. > > Jim: Apart from a token mention of other countries in one paragraph, you > > presuppose that > > > > (a) the entire problem lies within the governance of a single entity, > > namely the US > > no i don't. in every one of my messages, unless i missed one, i > mention the need for clear treaties to be established, probably via > the ITU. I'm not actually attempting to deal with the international > problem at this point, we need to get the plank out of our eye before > we get the splinter out of yours. Yes, that's right - once you've imposed your own ill-advised and draconian measures, you'll use whatever means you can to ram them down the throats of the rest of the world. After all, they can't possibly manage their affairs as well as you can do for them. I'll leave you to guess just what the other 95% of the world thinks about that idea. I think you'll find it about as popular as the activities of your petrochemical companies, your smelly and xenophobic soldiers, and those irritating low-score Mary Kay saleswomen. > i also pointed out the fact that most other countries respect private > property in the manner we do under their laws, and that the argument > is applicable anywhere these laws and democracies exist. The argument needs simplistic, narrow minds like yours in which to sprout. Regrettably your mentality's not entirely confined to the USA. Tell me, if you will, how it can be that in your marvellous country where personal freedoms have been steadily reducing for over a century, more is proprtionally spent on enforcement now than at any other time in your history, and when punishments and criminal statutes are at their strongest, crime - which you yourself claim would be reduced by these measures - is at an all-time high? Actually, don't bother telling me. I'm familiar to the point of boredom with the argument. But I hope you lose a little sleep before you manage to rationalise it away. > > (b) that there is a conceivable mechanism for enforcing any law outlawing > > UCE > > i believe i already mentioned that there are federal laws in place > here concerning private property issues. the penalties are in place. > > the methods of enforcement are many. but talk of the methods can > happen later, we have more immediate problems here like overturning an > unconstitutional law that allows them to invade our property. Yes, let's enact an unenforcable law. But gosh pal, that's unconstitutional. 8) > > Both these premises are faulty, in my opinion. > > > > The problem of spam is not new; all forms of communication suffer from it > > in one way or other. The problem with e-mail spam is that it is incredibly > > cheap to originate, and it costs recipients money to receive. > > exactly. this is why here in the USA we have either regulated in an > intelligent way or banned altogether each form of spam except for on > the internet. Intelligent? You obviously don't listen to the radio, watch television, or open your eyes while you're driving. "Spam" in normal communications channels is worse in the USA than in any other part of the world. Don't kid us Jim - your country couldn't "regulate" spam intelligently if it tried (which it won't). > > For example, I get cold-called on my GSM phone when I am in other countries. > > This costs me money much the same as the e-mail spam I receive costs me > > money. It rarely happens, though, because it is expensive for the spammer > > to do. > > here in the usa, making a telemarketing call to a celluar or pcs phone > is illegal, and has a serious punishment associated with it. But it's legal to cold-call me at home here. That wastes my time and costs *me* money. See "intelligent" above. > how long will it be before a way is found around this solution by > spammers? once they do that, we are back where we started. they have > found ways around everything else we can throw at them. Now you start to see part of the problem. It doesn't matter how you attempt to "defeat" the spammers. They will end-run you at every opportunity; they have more money, they're more organised, and their very survival depends on them doing so. This isn't a once-off battle that can be won with draconian legislation and imperialistic manipulation of trade agreements; it's just one more small phase in an ongoing war. The only way to "stop" spammers is to take away the *incentive*. Punishing them doesn't work anymore than it works for any other undesired behaviour. Of course, you can see where you have to go to take away the incentive, and I don't believe it's practical any more than you do. So we have to live with the war. There are better ways to win it than sowing mines in friendly territory, cf. Cambodia. > where there is no legal or financial incentive for change, change does > not happen. this is fundamental to human nature. this principle > dates as far back as Hammurabi [sp?], and is the time tested and valid > reason we have laws and enforcement in every country on this planet. Laws and law enforcement actually exist to defend the existing power structure. The individual laying their life on their line may well be sold on the idea of doing their bit "for society", but the organisations don't serve that purpose. > that's why we build courthouses and prisons. that's why you build > courthouses and prisons. how did your country get it's start? [i'm > not attempting to bash your country by saying that, i think aussies > are great people, i'm just making a point] Unless I'm muchly mistaken, Joe Abley is actually a New Zealander. And your grip of British colonial history is pretty shaky. Care to tell us who worked the fields of Virginia? Or outline the commercial basis for the settlement of Australia? It certainly had very little to do with courthouses and prisons; they merely served as a source of slave labour. You're invited to consider how the misapplication of laws, courthouses and prisons allowed the British to rationalise turning their own underclass citizens into slaves, and compare it to your current opinions on "criminals" as people that do things you personally don't like. > No legal mandate, no incentive to take action, no action taken. human > nature. Defenses can only be effectively erected by those with an incentive to do so. Regulators have no incentive to do so; it is the technically aware, irritated spam recipients that are the most likely source of such a defense. > Private property laws can easily be extended to the internet, and to > do so is merely the natural progression of those laws into today's > way of life and conducting business. Sure. Just like the marvellous extension patent law to software. > a society that does not adapt it's methods of dealing with it's > misfits as the society itself changes and grows is a society on the > way to it's own destruction. That's a supportable premise. Unfortunately it directly contradicts your main theme. You suggest applying the society's extant rules in a domain where they are not necessarily valid. That's not adaptation, that's stasis. > remember, this is not a debate on if serious regulation of the > internet will take place, rest assured, it will be seriously > regulated. If it is "seriously regulated", it will cease to be "the internet", and we will have to wait for something else will spring up in its place. Personally, I'll just find something more interesting to play with. Home Genetics sounds good. > WELCOME TO REALITY. ^ Jim's private -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 07:06:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24941 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24936 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:06:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 101tmZ-0007a2-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:06:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA01803 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:05:15 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24398; Sun, 17 Jan 99 15:05:13 GMT Message-Id: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:04:54 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What Bill Gates really thinks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. Enjoy..... http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 08:06:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29813 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:06:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA27601; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:06:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jan 1999 17:06:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:04:54 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. > Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously > flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. - assuming it's genuine. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 09:16:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05704 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:16:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08746 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:15:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:15:57 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: A new mailing list is open Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've set up a new mailing list specifically for people interested in developing applications for FreeBSD. It's sort of like -hackers, -chat, -announce, and -questions for the OS itself, in one simple forum and specific to people interested in developing applications. The web page is at http://www.o-o.org/mailman/listinfo/fad or you can subscribe by sending email to fad-request@o-o.org with the word subscribe for a subject. (FAD standing for FreeBSD Applications Developers, of course :) ) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 09:45:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07988 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07983 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA27876 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:45:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:45:35 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 03:04:54PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spoke Mark Ovens: > I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. > Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously > flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. > > Enjoy..... > > http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html I've read the original german article and it's a bit less harsh :) If anyone's interested I'll try my best and translate the whole article (its way more than just this few lines) and make it availiable somewhere. jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 09:45:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08216 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08211 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA27894 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:45:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:45:57 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990117184557.C27834@nethammer.qad.org> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 05:06:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spoke Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > > I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. > > Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously > > flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. > > - assuming it's genuine. It is. jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 10:34:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12755 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:34:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12750 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:34:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id NAA64915; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990117133353.A64891@tidalwave.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:53 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jonas Luster , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org>; from Jonas Luster on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:45:35PM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:45:35PM +0100, Jonas Luster wrote: > Thus spoke Mark Ovens: > > > I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. > > Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously > > flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. > > > > Enjoy..... > > > > http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html > > I've read the original german article and it's a bit less harsh :) My understanding is that Bill is always this nasty with interviewers. Look at the way he acted on the DOJ deposition tapes. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 10:58:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix.tfs.net (as2-p67.tfs.net [139.146.205.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15214 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:58:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@unix.tfs.net) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by unix.tfs.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) id MAA40424; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:58:16 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199901171858.MAA40424@unix.tfs.net> Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV [please take to -chat] In-Reply-To: <199901170841.AAA05140@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Jan 17, 99 00:41:49 am" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:58:05 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: jbryant@unix.tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Dec 6 03:10:25 CST 1998 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > > i also pointed out the fact that most other countries respect private > > property in the manner we do under their laws, and that the argument > > is applicable anywhere these laws and democracies exist. > > The argument needs simplistic, narrow minds like yours in which to > sprout. Regrettably your mentality's not entirely confined to the USA. [most of this is tongue in cheek] I guess everyone is right. I seem to be in the minority here. Laws get in the way. We MUST have a free-for-all! We need to keep going in circles creating newer ways to keep them out, no matter how many of them they get around, and no laws to protect us when they do. We need key escrow to ensure identification is authentic, IP numbers given at birth, and other TECHNOLOGICAL solutions to the problem, but with no laws to protect us from people who will get around every one of those technological solutions. Hey! Here's a good one! How about just implanting their access code in their right hand or forehead! No laws would be needed for that! Identity would be assured! May someone walk into your home, with you right there. Do whatever they want by whatever means they choose, and may you have no legal recourse to punish them for their actions. If you don't believe in laws and enforcement for unacceptable behaviour, then by all means! Don't be selective though, to do so is purely hypocritical. People who don't support the ancient concept of laws and the need for the enforcement of them will not change their minds, until something happens to them. I really hope something happens to you that you cannot do something about, maybe you will change your mind. Maybe not. Tell me, in your country is the person helping the criminal achieve his goal as guilty as the criminal himself? This is a fairly universal concept, if your country does not, it is definitely in the minority worldwide. Do you think murderers and thieves should not have laws made against them? How about any other crime? Yes my arrogant idea is not limited to my country. As a matter of fact, it didn't even originate in my country. It originated in Ur. A man named King Hammurabi originated the idea an estimated 5000 years ago. A society without laws to control undesirable behaviour is no longer a society, they tend to self-destruct. If you don't believe in laws to control society, then please do not ask the laws to help you if you are wronged. If you don't believe in laws to control society, then please don't EVER let me hear you make any complaints about society where you say something should be done. If you support anarchy on the net, by all means, support pure anarchy on the net. Remove all break-in laws, remove all DoS laws, remove all laws relating to it, and don't EVER ask for any to be put into place. Let's see how fast it self-destructs. Hmmm, spam from australia, DoS the entire country from multiple OC-48's on every incoming connection. Punish everyone for that one spammer, with no laws to prevent it. Hmmm, that COULD be fun! Either support laws to solve the problems of society, or don't. Please do not be selective! Just because a law is hard to enforce, does not mean it should not be made. Sooner or later, if a law is hard to enforce, positive identification will be mandated. IPv6 provides that along with number portability, your IP can by given to you at birth, and then we will know exactly who to punish. Is this arrogant? I don't think so, but now that I have made clear the logical implementation of IPv6, I doubt if you would ever support it being implemented based on your arguments! In an anarchy model of the net, I would be able to punish every citizen of your country for one person's act. You support that by your arguments for an anarchy model net. I'm not that cruel, I believe in punishing the individual, not the population that individual is part of. Maybe all spammers should be subject to massive worldwide DoS attacks, since this seems to be the only way to do it in a way that everyone seems to support. Since everyone agrees that DoS attacks are hard to trace, especially if coming simultaneously from thousands of sites at once, maybe we can solve the problem in ways that you would agree with. Who gives a damn if everything on the net grinds to a halt because of it, eh? Maybe, by your arguments, they will remove the DoS attack laws because they can't enforce them! By your arguments everyone will cry for the law to be removed because it's ineffective! Since all but a few responses on this list support the absurd notion of anarchy, I consider this thread finished, you deserve everything you support, muhahahahahaha! All of you people have swayed me. Coordinated massive scale DoS attacks from a mind bogglingly large number of sources is the cure. Be careful what YOU ask for, you might just get it! No laws and a free-for-all! Either way, the spammers lose. By the way, that'll be me in the dump truck dumping the manure in front of the front door to your home and business. Too bad you don't support laws against that, especially since you won't physically see me doing it! People want absurd arguments, I can play that game too! You guys really deserve to get what you support! Don't turn into a hypocrite, and beg for laws for protection when it happens too! If people get pissed off enough, they will take things into their own hands. I'd rather have laws and enforcement personally. I'm tired of arguing with the absurd. Internet regulation WILL happen. People with their heads up their asses are the reason for it, and of course they won't like it, but who cares. Where there is no incentive for the criminals and unethical to not be, they will be. No matter what stands in their way in the absence of laws, they will get around it, and be around to do it again, and again, and again. The worse the problems get, and the longer we go without laws will determine the types of laws we eventually get. If you want to wait for IP given at birth, key escrow, and implants, all mandated by law, you can feel free to not discuss it until the problems get that bad. I only argue for the easy way, and that is to act now. Hold people accountable for unethical and criminal actions now, it's a lot easier, and cheaper. [cranking up Ted Nugent] "FREE-FOR-ALL!" [changing stations] "...on the Eve of Destruction!" Hmmmm... Must be an omen. End of thread. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 12:05:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:05:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com ([208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21814 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07999; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990117120511.B4940@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:05:12 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 12:06:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22026 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com ([208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21987 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08485; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990117120642.C4940@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:42 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 12:42:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26586 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from k6n1.znh.org ([207.109.235.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26574 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zach@uffdaonline.net) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA26188; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:44:03 GMT (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19990117144403.A25927@znh.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:44:03 -0600 From: Zach Heilig To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net, Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV [please take to -chat] References: <199901170841.AAA05140@dingo.cdrom.com> <199901171858.MAA40424@unix.tfs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199901171858.MAA40424@unix.tfs.net>; from Jim Bryant on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:58:05PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:58:05PM -0600, Jim Bryant wrote: ... > We need key escrow to ensure identification is authentic, ... Be very careful about that. Public key "escrow"(*) is probably required, but private key escrow would only undermine the whole system. (*) one or more publicly accessible repositories, not really the same as escrow. -- Zach Heilig / Zach Heilig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 12:50:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28018 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28013 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16601; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:50:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:50:02 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: jonathan michaels cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good keyboards In-Reply-To: <19990117003129.D26744@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > On Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 03:44:09PM -0600, Mike Nguyen wrote: > > > > On 15-Jan-99 Jason C. Wells uttered: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > >>has a very nice keyboard made by NMB, say 95% as good as the Sun Type 5, > > > > > > I really like very nice tactile reponse of Powerbook keyboards as well as > > > the low profile of the keys. Looking for keyboards on the net yileds me > > > nothing but cheapo crap. I also tried converting to dvorak but the few > > > keyboards I tried had a curve profile so the keys could not be moved. > > > > > > Who makes good keyboards? Where can I get them? > > > > > > My favorite keyboard of all time are the IBM 101-key keyboards (the heavy ones > > with the click, not the cheap stuff they give you now). They are made by > > Lexmark, I think. Still available on RS/6000s, at least. I collect them > > whenever I can find a source, I have four, two I use at work, two I use at > > home. They're not cheap, though -- they seem to go for around $50 used, > > although I managed to snag a couple for free. They also last forever. > > and i thought i was the only one left .. well well. just goes to show what a > good keyboard can do .. grin. > > regards > > jonathan I also like the old IBM keyboards. I have here a Tandy 101-Key keyboard which is very similar to the IBM ones, and I love it. For the past two years, I've been using a M$ Natural keyboard (hey, I got it free... and its the original, not the newer smaller-footprint ones, which I cannot stand to use). After using this thing, I can't stand to use any non-ergonomic keyboard. The tactile response isn't quite like that of the IBM or Tandy keyboards, but it isn't bad and at least its a lot quieter. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) ( http://www.freebsd.org ) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 13:28:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02191 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02186 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp111.monmouth.com [209.191.60.112]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA09825; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA15298; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:27:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199901172127.QAA15298@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update To: jonas@nethammer.qad.org (Jonas Luster) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:27:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990117184108.A27834@nethammer.qad.org> from Jonas Luster at "Jan 17, 99 06:41:08 pm" Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thus spoke Kenton A. Hoover: > > > You have a Linux box that will switch at OC-12 speeds available? > > No, but I have some Ascends and its FreeBSD-based-Development-System :) > > > (I do not speak for my employer...) > (Neither do I :) > > jonas > Did I read this right... Ascend uses a FreeBSD based Development System. A-L-L R-I-G-H-T. If true, this'll be fun to tell the Linux and Inferno bigots at Lucent when I go to work. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 13:34:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:34:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02680 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA29816 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:35:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:35:00 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update Message-ID: <19990117223500.A29803@nethammer.qad.org> References: <19990117184108.A27834@nethammer.qad.org> <199901172127.QAA15298@pechter.nws.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901172127.QAA15298@pechter.nws.net>; from Bill Pechter on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:27:14PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spoke Bill Pechter: > Did I read this right... Ascend uses a FreeBSD based Development System. > A-L-L R-I-G-H-T. > If true, this'll be fun to tell the Linux and Inferno bigots at Lucent > when I go to work. Oh, I'm sure, Lucent already knows ... :) jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 17:28:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10277 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10271 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA24470; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:58:29 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA11679; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:58:27 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:58:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990118115827.M55525@freebie.lemis.com> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 05:06:18PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 17 January 1999 at 17:06:18 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: >> I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. >> Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously >> flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. > > - assuming it's genuine. I've read Focus magazine. I don't believe anything they write. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 17:29:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10364 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA24482; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:59:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA11887; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:59:05 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:59:05 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonas Luster Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org>; from Jonas Luster on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:45:35PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 17 January 1999 at 18:45:35 +0100, Jonas Luster wrote: > Thus spoke Mark Ovens: > >> I found the following which makes interesting (and amusing) reading. >> Seems an interviewer for a German magazine got Billy Boy seriously >> flustered and he gave an insight into his comtempt for users. >> >> Enjoy..... >> >> http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html > > I've read the original german article and it's a bit less harsh :) > If anyone's interested I'll try my best and translate the whole > article (its way more than just this few lines) and make it availiable > somewhere. Why not make the original available? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 18:11:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16381 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16372 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA33023 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:11:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:11:31 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 11:59:05AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spoke Greg Lehey: > > I've read the original german article and it's a bit less harsh :) > > If anyone's interested I'll try my best and translate the whole > > article (its way more than just this few lines) and make it availiable > > somewhere. > > Why not make the original available? How many of us do understand german? jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 18:13:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16547 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16540 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA24702; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:43:27 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA49300; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:43:25 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:43:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonas Luster Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990118124325.U55525@freebie.lemis.com> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org>; from Jonas Luster on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:11:31AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 18 January 1999 at 3:11:31 +0100, Jonas Luster wrote: > Thus spoke Greg Lehey: > >>> I've read the original german article and it's a bit less harsh :) >>> If anyone's interested I'll try my best and translate the whole >>> article (its way more than just this few lines) and make it availiable >>> somewhere. >> >> Why not make the original available? > > How many of us do understand german? Enough to make it worthwhile. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 18:21:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17331 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17326 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:21:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skjellyfetti@iname.com) Received: from iname.com (tc-2-98.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.135.226]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id VAA21017; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:22:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:17:48 -0600 From: Mark Kobussen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonas Luster CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How many of us do understand german? Mich! Oder, macht nichts... Ich kann nicht... Ich vergessen, aber ich immer bloed sein. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen, ein kleines Bisschen! I think that's about all the German I remember. I stayed in Bayern for a month a few years ago, in a little village called Schwabmuenchen, due south of Augsburg, due west of Muenchen. -- Mark Kobussen IS - Honeywell, SGP Division mkobusse@sgp.honeywell.com skjellyfetti@iname.com ICQ#11860734 /* '94 Mitsubishi Eclipse NT 1.8L */ /* Fender Stratocaster: Tex-Mex, 3-Tone Sunburst */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 18:35:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:35:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19632 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:35:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA33189 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:35:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:35:30 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Message-ID: <19990118033530.A33173@nethammer.qad.org> References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org> <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com>; from Mark Kobussen on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 08:17:48PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spoke Mark Kobussen: > > How many of us do understand german? > > Mich! Oder, macht nichts... Ich kann nicht... > > Ich vergessen, aber ich immer bloed sein. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen, > ein kleines Bisschen! Hey, that's not bad :) A bit babelfishy, but not bad :) jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 21:08:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15570 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19016; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:44:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd018938; Sun Jan 17 21:43:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA07501; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:43:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901180443.VAA07501@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV [please take to -chat] To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:43:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jabley@clear.co.nz, jal@ThirdAge.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dennis.moore@mail.house.gov, tlambert@primenet.com In-Reply-To: <199901162259.QAA28290@unix.tfs.net> from "Jim Bryant" at Jan 16, 99 04:59:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > 3. Implement a technical solution based on end-to-end signatures and/or > > cryptography, so that unsolicited mail will never be accepted. This would > > effectively make spam pointless, since the target audience is removed. > > terry used this argument. > > such a solution would require standardization, many years to > implement, as well as the finding unconstitutional of our current law > based on property rights issues. to do this before such a ruling > would result in massive restraint of trade lawsuits that could only be > defended by using the private property case and making the current law > unconstitutional. > > how long will it be before a way is found around this solution by > spammers? once they do that, we are back where we started. they have > found ways around everything else we can throw at them. > > i also believe that implementation on a national scale would also be > more expensive than a legal solution with adequate enforcement methods > and budgets. it would be totally ineffective to do this unless it was > mandated by law, see my argument concerning why we have the current > problems because of "voluntary self-regulation" and the lack of anyone > volunteering to do it effectively. Actually, all this would require is that participants either expect a signature by the signature authority on the connection, or that participants contact the authority to ash whether it would sign if it were asked to sign. This means that it is implementable as a phased approach to the problm, unlike other past approaches. In general, if I'm asked for a soloution to a problem, I take into account the games theoretic consequences of soloutions. This particular soloution only requires incremental participation. In addition, if people actually *want* SPAM, then they can either disable the certification, or they can respect a signature autority other than the default authority that implements whatever editorial policy they want to respect. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 22:12:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23965 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23960 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA01023; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:58:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:58:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Licia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Licia wrote: > I've set up a new mailing list specifically for people interested in > developing applications for FreeBSD. > > It's sort of like -hackers, -chat, -announce, and -questions for the OS > itself, in one simple forum and specific to people interested in developing > applications. Most excellent; this is just what I had been looking for! > (FAD standing for FreeBSD Applications Developers, of course :) ) Heh. "fad" is also the abbreviation I've been using for my freebsd-admin application. Anyone have any good suggestions for a final name for it? I don't think there's any standard name that's common to many Unices; everyone seems to use something different. -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 17 23:45:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04916 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:45:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA35155; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:44:47 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: Jonas Luster , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:43:25 +1030." <19990118124325.U55525@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:44:47 -0800 Message-ID: <35151.916645487@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How many of us do understand german? > > Enough to make it worthwhile. Genau. In any case, I read the original and the english translation and actually have to say that Bill Gates doesn't sound like the anti-christ here, he sounds like a businessman. Us hacker types get very offended by bugs and consider robust software to be more attractive than whiz-bang software with lots of new features, but Microsoft isn't marketing to us hacker types. It's marketing to 50 million sheep and sheep like bright green grass. If anything, I'd say Mr. Gates is no more or less than a realist. Just as with government, the majority generally gets the kind of software it deserves. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 01:21:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15033 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15028 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:21:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 102As8-00079S-00; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:21:25 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA02110; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:20:52 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02704; Mon, 18 Jan 99 09:20:50 GMT Message-Id: <36A2FCE1.121EBDF6@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:20:33 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brian W. Buchanan" wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Licia wrote: > > > I've set up a new mailing list specifically for people interested in > > developing applications for FreeBSD. > > > > It's sort of like -hackers, -chat, -announce, and -questions for the OS > > itself, in one simple forum and specific to people interested in developing > > applications. > > Most excellent; this is just what I had been looking for! > Doh, I've lost your original message. Can you post the details of the list again pls. Thanks -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 04:02:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02332 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02295 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:02:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26884; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:02:20 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:02:20 +1100 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks In-Reply-To: <35151.916645487@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd be interested in both the original and an translation (especially the translation as it's 10 years since I did german (badly) in high school and I was a less than average student) Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 08:41:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03041 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03017; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA28896; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:41:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:32:12 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to the Web page at http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flexmach/oskit/index.html The latest version of the "OSKit", whose STATED goal is to lower the barrier to entry to OS R&D, has just been re-released UNDER THE GPL. This is not only absurd (because the GPL *is* a barrier to OS R&D) but also illegal, because it conflicts with the licensing provisions of the BSD code which has been incorporated into the package. Those who are concerned about the attempted use of the GPL (which is anti-business, anti-innovation, and sometimes referred to as a "viral" or "cult" license) on BSD code should contact Jay Lepreau at lepreau@cs.utah.edu. Kernel authors in particular should be outraged at the unauthorized and unwarranted GPLing of their code and should protested what is, essentially, hijacking of their work. I'm copying this to hackers, but please address responses to chat. --Brett Glass P.S. -- Perhaps it is time to add a clause to the BSD license used in FreeBSD specifically prohibiting relicensing of that code, or derivative works, under the GPL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 08:48:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03926 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br [143.106.51.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03918; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vazquez@iqm.unicamp.br) Received: by kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (V-MTA, from userid 105) id 12CAC293; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:48:06 -0200 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:48:05 -0200 From: Pedro A M Vazquez To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Message-ID: <19990118144805.Q18957@kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br> References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:32:12AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:32:12AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > P.S. -- Perhaps it is time to add a clause to the BSD license used > in FreeBSD specifically prohibiting relicensing of that code, or > derivative works, under the GPL. > maybe something as stated on Eric Young's SSLeay package: The licence and distribution terms for any publically available version or derivative of this code cannot be changed. i.e. this code cannot simply be copied and put under another distribution licence [including the GNU Public Licence.] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 08:53:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04477 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:53:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04470 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA25097 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:53:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:53:48 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good keyboards In-Reply-To: <19990117003129.D26744@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > On Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 03:44:09PM -0600, Mike Nguyen wrote: > > > > On 15-Jan-99 Jason C. Wells uttered: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > >>has a very nice keyboard made by NMB, say 95% as good as the Sun Type 5, > > > > > > I really like very nice tactile reponse of Powerbook keyboards as well as > > > the low profile of the keys. Looking for keyboards on the net yileds me > > > nothing but cheapo crap. I also tried converting to dvorak but the few > > > keyboards I tried had a curve profile so the keys could not be moved. > > > > > > Who makes good keyboards? Where can I get them? > > > > > > My favorite keyboard of all time are the IBM 101-key keyboards (the heavy ones > > with the click, not the cheap stuff they give you now). They are made by > > Lexmark, I think. Still available on RS/6000s, at least. I collect them > > whenever I can find a source, I have four, two I use at work, two I use at > > home. They're not cheap, though -- they seem to go for around $50 used, > > although I managed to snag a couple for free. They also last forever. > > and i thought i was the only one left .. well well. just goes to show what a > good keyboard can do .. grin. Nope, I'm typing this on an IBM PS/2 keyboard. I love these things. IBM still sells them under the 'IBM Options' product line. Nice steep curve. Wonderfully heavy, clicky keys...mmmmm. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 08:57:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04733 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04728 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:57:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA29077; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:56:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118095317.04517f00@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:40 -0700 To: Andrew Perry , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <35151.916645487@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heck, I'd even be interested in seeing how the BabelFish butchers it. ;-) --Brett At 11:02 PM 1/18/99 +1100, Andrew Perry wrote: >I'd be interested in both the original and an translation (especially the >translation as it's 10 years since I did german (badly) in high school and >I was a less than average student) > >Andrew > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 08:57:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04752 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04744 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA22265; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:57:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma022263; Mon, 18 Jan 99 10:57:00 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA83724; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:57:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901181657.KAA83724@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:56:59 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You seem to be overreacting. None of the BSD code has been relicensed ... the individual source files contain the original copyright notices, and doc/licensing.tex clearly states the situation. In addition, the project seems to welcome requests for different licensing of the Univ. of Utah code (contact csl-dist@cs.utah.edu). Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org On 18 January 1999 at 9:32, Brett Glass wrote: > According to the Web page at > > http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flexmach/oskit/index.html > > The latest version of the "OSKit", whose STATED goal is to lower > the barrier to entry to OS R&D, has just been re-released UNDER > THE GPL. > > This is not only absurd (because the GPL *is* a barrier to OS > R&D) but also illegal, because it conflicts with the licensing > provisions of the BSD code which has been incorporated into the > package. > > Those who are concerned about the attempted use of the GPL > (which is anti-business, anti-innovation, and sometimes referred > to as a "viral" or "cult" license) on BSD code should contact Jay > Lepreau at lepreau@cs.utah.edu. Kernel authors in particular should > be outraged at the unauthorized and unwarranted GPLing of their code > and should protested what is, essentially, hijacking of their work. > > I'm copying this to hackers, but please address responses to chat. > > --Brett Glass > > P.S. -- Perhaps it is time to add a clause to the BSD license used > in FreeBSD specifically prohibiting relicensing of that code, or > derivative works, under the GPL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 09:04:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05553 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05548 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA29178; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:04:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:01:08 -0700 To: Jacques Vidrine From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901181657.KAA83724@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nope, I'm not overreacting. The page states that the code is licensed ONLY under the GPL. What's more, even if only the COMPILATION copyright is licensed under the GPL, that's enough to "infect" the collection as a whole. Authors of FreeBSD kernel code should send e-mail to Mr. Lepreau (lepreau@cs.utah.edu) saying in no uncertain terms that they will not stand for this. The GPL cancer has spread too far already, which is why I *STRONGLY* recommend an anti-GPL provision in the BSD license. --Brett At 10:56 AM 1/18/99 -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >You seem to be overreacting. None of the BSD code has been >relicensed ... the individual source files contain the original >copyright notices, and doc/licensing.tex clearly states the >situation. > >In addition, the project seems to welcome requests for different >licensing of the Univ. of Utah code (contact csl-dist@cs.utah.edu). > >Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org > >On 18 January 1999 at 9:32, Brett Glass wrote: >> According to the Web page at >> >> http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flexmach/oskit/index.html >> >> The latest version of the "OSKit", whose STATED goal is to lower >> the barrier to entry to OS R&D, has just been re-released UNDER >> THE GPL. >> >> This is not only absurd (because the GPL *is* a barrier to OS >> R&D) but also illegal, because it conflicts with the licensing >> provisions of the BSD code which has been incorporated into the >> package. >> >> Those who are concerned about the attempted use of the GPL >> (which is anti-business, anti-innovation, and sometimes referred >> to as a "viral" or "cult" license) on BSD code should contact Jay >> Lepreau at lepreau@cs.utah.edu. Kernel authors in particular should >> be outraged at the unauthorized and unwarranted GPLing of their code >> and should protested what is, essentially, hijacking of their work. >> >> I'm copying this to hackers, but please address responses to chat. >> >> --Brett Glass >> >> P.S. -- Perhaps it is time to add a clause to the BSD license used >> in FreeBSD specifically prohibiting relicensing of that code, or >> derivative works, under the GPL. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 09:43:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10436 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:43:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10429 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA22398; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:43:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma022396; Mon, 18 Jan 99 11:43:07 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA84007; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:43:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901181743.LAA84007@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:43:06 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 January 1999 at 10:01, Brett Glass wrote: > Nope, I'm not overreacting. The page states that the code > is licensed ONLY under the GPL. I don't see that. The page you reference does not contain any reference to ``GPL''. http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/oskit/ > What's more, even if only the > COMPILATION copyright is licensed under the GPL, that's > enough to "infect" the collection as a whole. What is ``the COMPILATION copyright''? I don't follow. > Authors of FreeBSD kernel code should send e-mail to Mr. Lepreau > (lepreau@cs.utah.edu) saying in no uncertain terms that they will > not stand for this. The GPL cancer has spread too far already, > which is why I *STRONGLY* recommend an anti-GPL provision in the > BSD license. The code developed at Univ. of Utah, the OSKit proper, if you will, is under GPL (although note that other licensing terms are available). The code donated/borrowed from other projects, such as FreeBSD, are still under the original copyright of the project (of course, since that cannot legally be changed). I'm no fan of GPL, and will not release code under GPL. However, there does not seem to be a problem here. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 10:46:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17780 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13180; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:45:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:45:43 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Mark Ovens cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open In-Reply-To: <36A2FCE1.121EBDF6@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > "Brian W. Buchanan" wrote: > > > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Licia wrote: > > > > > I've set up a new mailing list specifically for people interested in > > > developing applications for FreeBSD. > > > > > > It's sort of like -hackers, -chat, -announce, and -questions for the OS > > > itself, in one simple forum and specific to people interested in developing > > > applications. > > > > Most excellent; this is just what I had been looking for! > > > > Doh, I've lost your original message. Can you post the details of the > list again pls. > > Thanks > You can join the list by sending email to fad-request@o-o.org with the word subscribe for a subject, or you can visit http://www.o-o.org/mailman/listinfo/fad [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 10:50:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18198 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18127 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:49:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13204; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:49:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:49:50 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Brian W. Buchanan" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Brian W. Buchanan wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Licia wrote: > > > I've set up a new mailing list specifically for people interested in > > developing applications for FreeBSD. > > > > It's sort of like -hackers, -chat, -announce, and -questions for the OS > > itself, in one simple forum and specific to people interested in developing > > applications. > > Most excellent; this is just what I had been looking for! > Wonderful :) I knew there had to be other people out there who were interested in getting an app developer's community going for FreeBSD :) > > (FAD standing for FreeBSD Applications Developers, of course :) ) > > Heh. "fad" is also the abbreviation I've been using for my freebsd-admin > application. Anyone have any good suggestions for a final name for it? I > don't think there's any standard name that's common to many Unices; > everyone seems to use something different. > Oh, I'm sorry... would you like me to change the name of the list to something else? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 10:55:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19108 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19103 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00248; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:55:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:55:24 -0700 To: Jacques Vidrine From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901181743.LAA84007@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:43 AM 1/18/99 -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >On 18 January 1999 at 10:01, Brett Glass wrote: >> Nope, I'm not overreacting. The page states that the code >> is licensed ONLY under the GPL. > >I don't see that. The page you reference does not contain any >reference to ``GPL''. http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/oskit/ Use the links, Luke. ;-) Follow the link with the text "Licensing policy" midway down the page. It leads to the following: =================================================================== Copyright (c) 1994-1999 The University of Utah and the Flux Group. All rights reserved. The OSKit -- the Flux Operating System Toolkit. Developed by the University of Utah, Flux Research Group. http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/ The OSKit is free software -- also known as "open source" -- you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License, version 2, as published by the Free Software Foundation, and found in the file `COPYING'. This license basically allows free use, modification, and redistribution, as long as the source to the OSKit and any code linked against it is made freely available. (The license in `COPYING' is authoritative, not this interpretation of it.) For credits and exceptions, see doc/licensing.tex. To explore alternate licensing terms, contact the University at csl-dist@cs.utah.edu or +1-801-585-3271. The OSKit is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with the OSKit; see the file COPYING. If not, write to the Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place #330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA, or look at http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl.html. =================================================================== There's no mention of the fact that it is per se illegal to relicense BSD code under the GPL. >What is ``the COMPILATION copyright''? I don't follow. It's a basic concept of copyright law. When you compile a collection of material, you own a copyright on the way the collection is compiled (the selection of elements and the way in which they're linked together) even if you don't own all of the component parts. If you wanted to use the "OSKit," including the "glue code" that connects the various elements, you'd have to have permission under the compilation copyright. Apparently, the University has unwisely chosen to license this copyright under the GPL. Again, this precludes commercial re-use -- a good example of how many developers stamp the GPL on their code without understanding the legalities or the implications. >The code developed at Univ. of Utah, the OSKit proper, if you will, >is under GPL (although note that other licensing terms are available). It should not be. This is contrary to the stated purpose of the project. How can one reduce the cost of OS R&D when one precludes businesses from creating commercial OSes based on the kit? >The code donated/borrowed from other projects, such as FreeBSD, are >still under the original copyright of the project (of course, since >that cannot legally be changed). That's not what that "License policy" says. This group is attempting to relicense BSD-licensed code under the GPL, both by stamping the GPL on it and by using it for the package as a whole. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:14:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03051 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03046 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00859; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Licia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Heh. "fad" is also the abbreviation I've been using for my freebsd-admin > > application. Anyone have any good suggestions for a final name for it? I > > don't think there's any standard name that's common to many Unices; > > everyone seems to use something different. > > > > Oh, I'm sorry... would you like me to change the name of the list to something > else? No, I was just pointing out a coincidence that I found humorous -- I started work on an application, and found myself wishing for a list where I could pick the brains of other FreeBSD app developers, then a few weeks later find that list in existence, with the same name as the working abbreviation I'd been using. My app's name probably won't even stick around if someone can come up with something better. :) -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:18:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03582 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [209.81.9.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03556; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:18:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@monk.via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15347; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe) From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199901182018.MAA15347@monk.via.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:18:05 -0800 (PST) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.1-970608-bsdi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Also, I wouldn't think that it is proper to slap a GNU style copyleft on software that was funded by the government (in this case, DARPA). Joe McGuckin ViaNet Communications 1235 Pear Ave, Suite 107 Mountain View, CA 90403 Phone: 650-969-2203 Cell: 415-710-4894 Fax: 650-969-2124 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:26:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04782 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:26:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04765; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA01160; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:26:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118132031.06324a60@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:21:20 -0700 To: Joe McGuckin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901182018.MAA15347@monk.via.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Joe McGuckin wrote: > >Also, I wouldn't think that it is proper to slap a GNU style copyleft >on software that was funded by the government (in this case, DARPA). I agree. Yet another reason to e-mail these folks and protest this move. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:38:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06145 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06128 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22890; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:35:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma022888; Mon, 18 Jan 99 14:35:19 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01818; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:35:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901182035.OAA01818@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:35:19 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 January 1999 at 11:55, Brett Glass wrote: > Use the links, Luke. ;-) Follow the link with the text "Licensing > policy" midway down the page. It leads to the following: Yes, and that clearly states to see doc/licensing.tex for ``credits and exceptions''. [snip] > There's no mention of the fact that it is per se illegal to relicense > BSD code under the GPL. 1) See doc/licensing.tex. 2) Who in their right mind would think that they can change the license on a given piece of software if they have no copyright on the software? > >What is ``the COMPILATION copyright''? I don't follow. > > It's a basic concept of copyright law. When you compile a collection > of material, you own a copyright on the way the collection is compiled > (the selection of elements and the way in which they're linked together) > even if you don't own all of the component parts. Thanks, it is clear to me what you mean now. Again, this doesn't seem to cause any problems ... the various borrowed bits of software still retain their original copyright. [snip] > >The code developed at Univ. of Utah, the OSKit proper, if you will, > >is under GPL (although note that other licensing terms are available). > > It should not be. This is contrary to the stated purpose of the project. > How can one reduce the cost of OS R&D when one precludes businesses > from creating commercial OSes based on the kit? I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. I advocate BSD-like licenses over GPL. It is the University's perogative to license its software as it sees fit, however. It is also tangential to the subject of this thread: ``Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL'' -- a subject which I still say is bogus in this case. There has been no attempt by the project to ``relicense BSD code under the GPL''. > >The code donated/borrowed from other projects, such as FreeBSD, are > >still under the original copyright of the project (of course, since > >that cannot legally be changed). > > That's not what that "License policy" says. This group is attempting to > relicense BSD-licensed code under the GPL, both by stamping the GPL > on it and by using it for the package as a whole. That _is_ what it says. Read. Show me where it says that, e.g., the FreeBSD C library is under GPL. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:42:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07005 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:42:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06997 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA01343; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:42:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:40:31 -0700 To: Jacques Vidrine From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901182035.OAA01818@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:35 PM 1/18/99 -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >> >What is ``the COMPILATION copyright''? I don't follow. >> >> It's a basic concept of copyright law. When you compile a collection >> of material, you own a copyright on the way the collection is compiled >> (the selection of elements and the way in which they're linked together) >> even if you don't own all of the component parts. > >Thanks, it is clear to me what you mean now. Again, this doesn't >seem to cause any problems ... the various borrowed bits of software >still retain their original copyright. Ah, but the significant part of the OSKit project is the way in which they are glued together. And THAT is under the GPL. Look at the site more closely. There are several examples of companies who have created specialized embedded OSes for their products using the kit. They're now out of luck.... They'd have to give away their hard work to keep doing it. >> How can one reduce the cost of OS R&D when one precludes businesses >> from creating commercial OSes based on the kit? > >I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. I advocate BSD-like licenses >over GPL. It is the University's perogative to license its software >as it sees fit, however. The software was paid for by OUR money -- by a government grant. The University has no right to restrict our use of it. >It is also tangential to the subject of this >thread: ``Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL'' -- a subject >which I still say is bogus in this case. There has been no attempt >by the project to ``relicense BSD code under the GPL''. Yes, there is. The collection includes BSD code and is licensed as a whole under the GPL. It's thus "infected." For good. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:52:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08813 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08803 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22939; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:51:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma022937; Mon, 18 Jan 99 14:51:41 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01948; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:51:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901182051.OAA01948@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118132031.06324a60@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118132031.06324a60@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: Brett Glass cc: Joe McGuckin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:51:41 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Please follow up only to -chat as the original poster requested.] On 18 January 1999 at 13:21, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:18 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Joe McGuckin wrote: > >Also, I wouldn't think that it is proper to slap a GNU style copyleft > >on software that was funded by the government (in this case, DARPA). > > I agree. Yet another reason to e-mail these folks and protest this > move. No! Brett's claim is bogus. Accusing the University of ``foul play'' is not going to win any converts to the BSD license. _Do_ feel free to write them and persuade them to use a less restrictive license: ``To explore alternate licensing terms, contact the University at csl-dist@cs.utah.edu or +1-801-585-3271.'' Brett probably wouldn't have gone balistic when reading http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/oskit/LICENSE if it had included some important text from the file it references (doc/licensing.tex). Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 12:57:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09765 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09758 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22955; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:57:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma022953; Mon, 18 Jan 99 14:57:02 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02006; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:57:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901182057.OAA02006@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-Exmh-Isig-CompType: repl X-Exmh-Isig-Folder: lists/freebsd X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:57:02 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 January 1999 at 13:40, Brett Glass wrote: [snip] > Look at the site more closely. There are several examples of companies > who have created specialized embedded OSes for their products using > the kit. They're now out of luck.... They'd have to give away their > hard work to keep doing it. What is your point? Those companies made a decision when they selected software that is GPL'd. A bad decision, IMO, and yours too, I would gather. [snip] > >I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. I advocate BSD-like licenses > >over GPL. It is the University's perogative to license its software > >as it sees fit, however. > > The software was paid for by OUR money -- by a government grant. The > University has no right to restrict our use of it. Again, this has nothing to do with BSD code being ``relicensed'' as GPL code. Not to mention the fact that your statement is absurd -- I suppose that we American citizens should have full access to all code written by the U.S. Government because we paid for it? > Yes, there is. The collection includes BSD code and is licensed as > a whole under the GPL. It's thus "infected." For good. Brett, have you even read the doc/licensing.tex file? Quoting: Because much of the code in the \oskit\ was ``donated'' by external projects there are a plethora of additional copyrights and licences, but their requirements are straightforward. [snip] To help clarify matters, the Acknowledgements section, below, describes which parts of the \oskit\ are covered by which license(s). [snip -- the Acknowledgements section is more than verbose enough] Have you even looked at the distribution? Source files from other projects retain the original copyright notice. I asked for you to show me where any BSD code was being presented with a GPL license (but you snipped that). I take it that you have not found any? I have seen some files that have a mix of BSD and University of Utah code, and bear both GPL and BSD copyright notices at the top. This is sloppy, and will probably result in troubles for someone someday (recall UCB/AT&T's troubles). But it is hardly the transgression that you seem to want it to be. I think you do a great disservice to the open software community by slinging this mud, meritless as it is. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:08:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11827 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11816 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02844; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:10:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990119081042.A2734@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:10:42 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good keyboards Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990117003129.D26744@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 11:53:48AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 11:53:48AM -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 03:44:09PM -0600, Mike Nguyen wrote: > > > > > > On 15-Jan-99 Jason C. Wells uttered: > > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > > >>has a very nice keyboard made by NMB, say 95% as good as the Sun Type 5, > > > > > > > > I really like very nice tactile reponse of Powerbook keyboards as well as > > > > the low profile of the keys. Looking for keyboards on the net yileds me > > > > nothing but cheapo crap. I also tried converting to dvorak but the few > > > > keyboards I tried had a curve profile so the keys could not be moved. > > > > > > > > Who makes good keyboards? Where can I get them? > > > > > > > > > My favorite keyboard of all time are the IBM 101-key keyboards (the heavy ones > > > with the click, not the cheap stuff they give you now). They are made by > > > Lexmark, I think. Still available on RS/6000s, at least. I collect them > > > whenever I can find a source, I have four, two I use at work, two I use at > > > home. They're not cheap, though -- they seem to go for around $50 used, > > > although I managed to snag a couple for free. They also last forever. > > > > and i thought i was the only one left .. well well. just goes to show what a > > good keyboard can do .. grin. > > Nope, I'm typing this on an IBM PS/2 keyboard. I love these things. IBM > still sells them under the 'IBM Options' product line. Nice steep curve. > Wonderfully heavy, clicky keys...mmmmm. > "IBM Options" ... noted and diarised .. with thanks yes, they are a good keyboard, drats i was going to say someting else but its gone. must be to early in teh morning .. ummm regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:10:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12088 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12015; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20295; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:09:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020216; Mon Jan 18 14:09:52 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01203; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:09:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901182109.OAA01203@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:09:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joe@monk.via.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990118132031.06324a60@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 99 01:21:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Also, I wouldn't think that it is proper to slap a GNU style copyleft > >on software that was funded by the government (in this case, DARPA). > > I agree. Yet another reason to e-mail these folks and protest this > move. I agree too, but the RT OS from the Red Stone missle folks was a DARPA funded project, and it's under GPL. It looks like GPL is "politically correct" in government circles these days. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:14:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12506 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA01634; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:13:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118140907.0628fef0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:13:37 -0700 To: Jacques Vidrine From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901182057.OAA02006@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:57 PM 1/18/99 -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >On 18 January 1999 at 13:40, Brett Glass wrote: >[snip] >> Look at the site more closely. There are several examples of companies >> who have created specialized embedded OSes for their products using >> the kit. They're now out of luck.... They'd have to give away their >> hard work to keep doing it. > >What is your point? Those companies made a decision when they >selected software that is GPL'd. Again, read the Web site. They did NOT select software that was GPLed. The January 15th release of the OSKit is the first one that the University has released under the GPL. >A bad decision, IMO, and yours too, I would gather. Nope. I would never make such a decision. However, I am greatly concerned about the ugly trend toward "infection" of software by the GPL. >> The software was paid for by OUR money -- by a government grant. The >> University has no right to restrict our use of it. > >Again, this has nothing to do with BSD code being ``relicensed'' as >GPL code. Not directly. However, it is also true that a compilation including BSD code is being released under the GPL. >Not to mention the fact that your statement is absurd -- I suppose >that we American citizens should have full access to all code written >by the U.S. Government because we paid for it? Certainly if it is paid for by government grants to academic institutions. Where do you think BSD came from? >I asked for you to show me where any BSD code was being presented with >a GPL license (but you snipped that). No, I answered that. The work as a whole, which incorporates BSD code, is licensed under the GPL. And should not be. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:21:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13436 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13431; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25287; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:21:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd025189; Mon Jan 18 14:21:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01705; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:21:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901182121.OAA01705@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:21:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 99 09:32:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is not only absurd (because the GPL *is* a barrier to OS > R&D) but also illegal, because it conflicts with the licensing > provisions of the BSD code which has been incorporated into the > package. The conflict is an artifact of the GPL, not of the BSD license. In fact, it's possible to "copyleft" BSD licensed code, as has been demonstrated by the Sendmail and BSD DB code with the sendmail license and the "sleepycat" license, respectively. > P.S. -- Perhaps it is time to add a clause to the BSD license used > in FreeBSD specifically prohibiting relicensing of that code, or > derivative works, under the GPL. I've previously suggested adding a "poison pill", either like the SSLeay license immutability clause (which would be onerous to a number of potential commercial uses of the code -- a bad thing), or a less restrictive: 5. This software and derivative works thereof are prohibited from being licensed under terms that require the distribution of the source code for this software or derivative works thereof. This *really* needs consideration by Jordan and others in charge of the licensing. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:45:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16731 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16710 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA23089; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:45:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma023087; Mon, 18 Jan 99 15:45:18 -0600 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA02239; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:45:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199901182145.PAA02239@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <4.1.19990118140907.0628fef0@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118140907.0628fef0@mail.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:45:18 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 January 1999 at 14:13, Brett Glass wrote: > Again, read the Web site. They did NOT select software that was GPLed. > The January 15th release of the OSKit is the first one that the University > has released under the GPL. Then previous releases are not GPL and the companies are not bound by it. Again, this is not relevant to this discussion (re: ``Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL''). > >A bad decision, IMO, and yours too, I would gather. > > Nope. I would never make such a decision. However, I am greatly concerned > about the ugly trend toward "infection" of software by the GPL. Yes, I meant ``A bad decision'' In My Opinion and probably In Your Opinion also. > Not directly. However, it is also true that a compilation including > BSD code is being released under the GPL. Fair enough. Might I suggest that you start a thread regarding why this is bad, and what arguments one should use to discourage it? While you are at it, you may want to include FreeBSD in the discussion-- after all, FreeBSD is a compilation which includes software under the BSD license and the GPL, and possibly others. > Certainly if it is paid for by government grants to academic institutions. > Where do you think BSD came from? UCB invented the BSD license. The government did not tell UCB to use this license. UCB chose this type of license. University of Utah has chosen GPL. There is no reason that the University cannot GPL the code. Again, I wouldn't make the same decision, but it is not my decision to make, nor yours. > >I asked for you to show me where any BSD code was being presented with > >a GPL license (but you snipped that). > > No, I answered that. The work as a whole, which incorporates BSD code, > is licensed under the GPL. And should not be. Gee, I still haven't seen anything in the license statements to that affect. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:48:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17177 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA42218; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:16 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA07995; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:47:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Brett Glass cc: Jacques Vidrine , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >Yes, there is. The collection includes BSD code and is licensed as >a whole under the GPL. It's thus "infected." For good. (I followed loosely this discussion.) Shouldn't the Board of Regents defend their copyright? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 13:58:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18605 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18589 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13939; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:58:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:58:19 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Brian W. Buchanan" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A new mailing list is open In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Brian W. Buchanan wrote: > > > Heh. "fad" is also the abbreviation I've been using for my freebsd-admin > > > application. Anyone have any good suggestions for a final name for it? I > > > don't think there's any standard name that's common to many Unices; > > > everyone seems to use something different. > > > > > > > Oh, I'm sorry... would you like me to change the name of the list to something > > else? > > No, I was just pointing out a coincidence that I found humorous -- I > started work on an application, and found myself wishing for a list where > I could pick the brains of other FreeBSD app developers, then a few weeks > later find that list in existence, with the same name as the working > abbreviation I'd been using. My app's name probably won't even stick > around if someone can come up with something better. :) > ahh :) I just set the list up recently :) In fact it just went public when I announced it in here :) Actually, FAD would be a good place to ask for help picking a name :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 14:30:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24478 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24469 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA10964; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:30:04 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36A3B5D9.775BEE30@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:29:45 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > According to the Web page at > > http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flexmach/oskit/index.html > > The latest version of the "OSKit", whose STATED goal is to lower > the barrier to entry to OS R&D, has just been re-released UNDER > THE GPL. > > This is not only absurd (because the GPL *is* a barrier to OS > R&D) but also illegal, because it conflicts with the licensing > provisions of the BSD code which has been incorporated into the > package. > > Those who are concerned about the attempted use of the GPL > (which is anti-business, anti-innovation, and sometimes referred > to as a "viral" or "cult" license) on BSD code should contact Jay > Lepreau at lepreau@cs.utah.edu. Kernel authors in particular should > be outraged at the unauthorized and unwarranted GPLing of their code > and should protested what is, essentially, hijacking of their work. Mind you, > Re licensing, the OSKit comes with full source, and is GPL'ed; "open > source" is now the "in" term apparently. If a business or someone has > trouble with the GPL, the University is willing to talk about other options. Also, there is something about exceptions, but I could not get to the file. So, maybe the BSD source is still under BSD. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:30:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00860 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22665 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:30:11 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:30:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00386; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:25:26 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:25:26 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: jonathan michaels cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV [please take to -chat] In-Reply-To: <19990117010348.F26744@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > On Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 03:45:35AM -0600, Jim Bryant wrote: > > In reply: > > > 270,000,000 americans are pissed. who the fuck are you to defy the > > will of the american public, > > the ohter 4 billion 700 thousand odd that make up teh rest of teh REAL WORLD, > i'd say we have a significant majority and we as a group are tired of this > kind of scantemonius spew coming from yet another morally out raged amoreican > > have you guys not learnt yet thea the world is a big place and that 'meric is > just as insignicifant a bit of it as any oher place. Excellent point; most Americans can't see beyond the bounds of their own egos let alone their neighbours, and God forbid the rest of the world. Someone recently called Australia the 'arse end of the world'- in terms of position on the globe I can take his point, but America must be a lay down misere for taking that title when it comes to seeing beyond the free speaking 'individual'. May God shed his grace on thee... O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:30:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01092 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00897 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22510 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:30:00 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:30:00 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA00418 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:59 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:59 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been using SysV Unices for 5-6 years and last year installed Linux on my home machine. On the many occasions I required help; I got it from Linux gurus on thr IRC channels on the irc.linpeople.org servers and received excellent help. Along the way I helped many other newbies with my general Unix knowledge. The Linux channels have an ethos that says no question is dumb or lame. No one is kicked or banned from a channel because of the pervasive 'calm' and responsiveness the 'elders' provide to newbies. In fact I don't think the chanop paradigm is in operation. Now to the point... I installed FreeBSD after reading many favourable reviews of it and the time came to join an IRC channel for quick help... EFNET's #freebsd channel to be precise. I had read the FAQ and it warned me that each of the channels had a distinct 'style'. I must say that while on the channel the amount of bullshit and tripe I witnessed was unbelievable. A cliquey group of unix sysadmins were calling newbies 'lamers', 'loozers', 'lemurs', 'wankers', etc. Kicking and banning for very soft reasons. I saw more profanity than what you would expect on a general channel. I was apalled. I'm not surprised the FreeBSD camp are playing 'second fiddle' to Linux in the interested and willing 'newbies'; and the computer press' consciousness. As a convert to FreeBSD, I urge others interested in promoting FreeBSD to clean up the act and present the OS on IRC channels in a friendlier fashion. PS: If you don't believe me either join the channel and ask a few questions or look at the #FreeBSD channel logs for EFNET located at http://www.emsphone.com/FreeBSD (yes think what you will, the channels are logged) and judge the quality for yourselves. Best Wishes O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:30:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01114 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01105 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22698 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:30:22 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:30:22 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00375; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:15:44 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:15:44 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: jonathan michaels cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good keyboards In-Reply-To: <19990117002755.C26744@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > if you like teh ibm pc/rt keyboards .. sold with ibm rs6000 workstations, > lexmark build them for ibm these days. it is possible to buy them from lexmark > but the price is steep, in australia, they cost $AUD450 (abiut $USD300 > doing a straight conversion). > > i can supply ibm part and lexmark identifying number if your interested. > > these keyboards are not as heavy as teh old (20 years ago) average mainframe > terminal keyboards, thierfore they are not as solid and do flex a bit but they > are not anywhere near as bad as teh $USD20 door wedgies .. er sorry keybaords. Jonathan, I'm wondering if keyboards like the one you describe are available at many of the Australian government computer auctions held from time to time. I'm positive I've seen boxfuls of excellent keyboards on sale (AUS $50 a box!). The only reason I didn't get them is that the connector looked funny.. probably mainframe type keyboard with lots of extra keys etc. I didn't realise they were so prized. Best Regards Dr O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:30:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01146 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01117 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22732 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:30:30 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:30:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00361 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:04:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:04:54 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Good keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Dave Hummel wrote: > > I agree. I have one from an XT dated 1986, and it's the best keyboard I've > ever used. I beat on it, and it just keeps working. The only downfall is > that it's a little noisy for late night stealth computing. I wouldn't mind > getting a few more myself. > > Dave > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Mike Nguyen wrote: > > > > > On 15-Jan-99 Jason C. Wells uttered: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > >>has a very nice keyboard made by NMB, say 95% as good as the Sun Type 5, > > > > > > I really like very nice tactile reponse of Powerbook keyboards as well as > > > the low profile of the keys. Looking for keyboards on the net yileds me > > > nothing but cheapo crap. I also tried converting to dvorak but the few > > > keyboards I tried had a curve profile so the keys could not be moved. > > > > > > Who makes good keyboards? Where can I get them? > > > > > > My favorite keyboard of all time are the IBM 101-key keyboards (the heavy ones > > with the click, not the cheap stuff they give you now). They are made by > > Lexmark, I think. Still available on RS/6000s, at least. I collect them > > whenever I can find a source, I have four, two I use at work, two I use at > > home. They're not cheap, though -- they seem to go for around $50 used, > > although I managed to snag a couple for free. They also last forever. > > > > Mike. > > I've used many different keyboards in my time, but my absolute favorite has to be the IBM Thinkpad 600 keyboard. Because I do so much of my typing out of the office I had to choose a notebook based on the quality of its keyboard; The IBM came up a distinct winner; the bonus is that almost every OS I have has run on it (Micros**t, BeOS, Linux, Solaris 7, and FreeBSD 2.2.8) without a problem. Best Wishes Dr O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:30:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01139 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22892 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:30:38 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:30:38 -0000 Received: (from dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) id AAA01724 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:24:26 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Message-Id: <199901181324.AAA01724@fireball.2000.com.au> Subject: Re: German? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:24:26 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How many of us do understand german? > > Mich! Oder, macht nichts... Ich kann nicht... > > Ich vergessen, aber ich immer bloed sein. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen, > ein kleines Bisschen! > > I think that's about all the German I remember. I stayed in Bayern for a > month a few years ago, in a little village called Schwabmuenchen, due > south of Augsburg, due west of Muenchen. Das ist schtrictly gnu shite ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:35:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01842 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01837 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:35:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13502; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:35:45 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199901182335.PAA13502@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attempt to relicense BSD code under the GPL In-Reply-To: <36A3B5D9.775BEE30.kithrup.freebsd.chat@newsguy.com> References: <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wish only people who actually understood intellectual property laws, especially copyright, would bring up these kinds of discussions. And, no, I don't consider either Terry nor Brett to fit into that category. (Sorry.) That said: In article <36A3B5D9.775BEE30.kithrup.freebsd.chat@newsguy.com> you write: >Also, there is something about exceptions, but I could not get to >the file. So, maybe the BSD source is still under BSD. Nobody but the author(s) (or the peron(s) the author(s) has(have) authorized in writing, with an exchange of goods for good measure) can change the licensing terms of any copywritten work. (Excluding the gov't and other extreme cases.) However, it is entirely possible to take a BSD-licensed piece of code, slap a GPL on it, and be fully legal. The trick, which I think is obvious and so should anyone who actually thinks about it (ref. my initial comment), is that the new license only covers any changes made to the original. There are some potentially interesting conflicts w.r.t. advertising and whatnot, but, for the most part, this is doable and has been done in the past, and will be done again in the future. This comes up fairly often with public-domain works (both code and other). Although I strongly urge that everyone read the hideous "Digital Millennium Copyright Act" as well, because it changes a bunch of stuff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:37:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02140 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:37:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA37905; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:37:12 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:59 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:37:11 -0800 Message-ID: <37901.916702631@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I installed FreeBSD after reading many favourable reviews of it and the > time came to join an IRC channel for quick help... EFNET's #freebsd > channel to be precise. I had read the FAQ and it warned me that each of > the channels had a distinct 'style'. I must say that while on the channel > the amount of bullshit and tripe I witnessed was unbelievable. A > cliquey group of unix sysadmins were calling newbies 'lamers', 'loozers', > 'lemurs', 'wankers', etc. Kicking and banning for very soft reasons. I saw > more profanity than what you would expect on a general channel. I was > apalled. Now go going #linux and hang out there for the same period of time. You'll quickly learned what even some of the most basic bacteria have learned by now - IRC is not a tool for tech support, it is a general chat channel and continuous playground recess in session. That's all it is or ever was, and people who wander into there looking for tech support are exhibiting the same kind of self-destructive naivete that characterizes those who go to bars or red light districts in search of meaningful, spiritual relationships. ;) To put it another way, if you attempt to use a screwdriver to pound in nails, don't be surprised if you cut yourself. Use the right tool for the job, IRC not being the right tool for the job you attempted to do. > I'm not surprised the FreeBSD camp are playing 'second fiddle' to Linux in > the interested and willing 'newbies'; and the computer press' > consciousness. This is also not a FreeBSD vs Linux phenomenon, as just 5 minutes in EFNET's #linux or #linuxos channels will quickly show you. Please try for at least some acceptable minimum in statistical research before presenting conclusions like this. Knee-jerk reactions serve no one's purpose, least of all your own. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:47:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03134 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03129 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA37988; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:47:44 -0800 (PST) cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:37:11 PST." <37901.916702631@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:47:43 -0800 Message-ID: <37985.916703263@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now go going #linux and hang out there for the same period of time. > > You'll quickly learned what even some of the most basic bacteria have Geeze, I have got to stop composing email in such a damn rush.. s/going/to/ and s/learned/learn/ - gack. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 15:57:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04158 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04151 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 5894 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 23:57:21 -0000 Received: from modem70-syd-isp-26.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.15.199) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 23:57:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA01874; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:59:20 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:59:20 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <37901.916702631@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Now go going #linux and hang out there for the same period of time. > > You'll quickly learned what even some of the most basic bacteria have > learned by now - IRC is not a tool for tech support, it is a general and > This is also not a FreeBSD vs Linux phenomenon, as just 5 minutes in > EFNET's #linux or #linuxos channels will quickly show you. You've quite obviously missed the point... you probably haven't used Linux to any great degree (maybe proudly); but the IRC avenue for help is highly developed on the specific linux IRC servers. I realise that #linux is just as bad on EFNET but try the linpeople.org servers and you will see what I was trying to get across. IRC is a highly responsive form of peer help and the Linux guys have taken up the challenge and are providing excellent support to Linux users through this medium. Something the FreeBSD camp could 'emulate' as they do so well :) Oben Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 16:03:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04772 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04762 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA20107; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:02:33 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990119110224.29085@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:02:24 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 10:01:59AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 10:01:59AM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > I have been using SysV Unices for 5-6 years and last year installed Linux > on my home machine. On the many occasions I required help; I got it from > Linux gurus on thr IRC channels on the irc.linpeople.org > servers and received excellent help. Along the way I helped many other > newbies with my general Unix knowledge. The Linux channels have an ethos > that says no question is dumb or lame. No one is kicked or banned from a > channel because of the pervasive 'calm' and responsiveness the 'elders' > provide to newbies. In fact I don't think the chanop paradigm is in > operation. > > Now to the point... > > I installed FreeBSD after reading many favourable reviews of it and the > time came to join an IRC channel for quick help... There's mistake number one: you're applying Linux community values and expectations the the FreeBSD community. In some ways they can be opposite. In my personal experience, a lot of Linux users think IRC is fun, while a lot more FreeBSD users would rather avoid IRC entirely. FreeBSD users are expected to do the work themselves and only ask when really stuck, and then ask on the mailing lists, while the Linux users who I know really get off on having some green newbie around so that they can show off what they (think they) know. When I ran Linux I tried IRC and was given half a dozen conflicting answers to a question, and none of them worked. When I have a FreeBSD question I would never think of going to IRC, but ask on the mailing lists. I'm sometimes answered by silence, but I know that when the answer finally comes it will be a good one which has been checked by hundreds of other competent people who follow freebsd-questions. Some good answers have arrived by email within seconds. Linux is a much better place for a naive newbie than FreeBSD and they see IRC as a place to help people who would rather have human contact than read a book. FreeBSD (community) is more tuned for developers, and IRC is a place for those of them who like IRC make quick contact and socialise. Some say we need a #FreeBSDHelp channel. Yeah, great idea, and it's been tried. Where do you get the people who are capable of helping propoerly, and how do you have them commit to being there round the clock? You see, whenever you ask for FreeBSD help you're probably getting someone to do what they do for a living for free. By contrast, many more Linux users would be flattered to think that someone would actually ask them for help. When in Rome don't expect to find tabouli, but the pizza's great. -- Regards, -*Sue*- [Actually the pizza's much better in Spain but why spoil a good mixed metaphor with the facts] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 16:07:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06929; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12237; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:07:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012053; Mon Jan 18 17:07:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19784; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:07:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901190007.RAA19784@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Forward all spam to UCE@FTC.GOV To: zach@uffdaonline.net (Zach Heilig) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:07:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, jbryant@unix.tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990115095653.A16631@znh.org> from "Zach Heilig" at Jan 15, 99 09:56:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm pretty sure anytime there are damages [perhaps fines as well?] in > excess of a certain amount (I think $1000), it is also considered > felony. Yes; hence the distinction between "larceny" and "grand larceny". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 16:27:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10252 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10242 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA23366; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:27:19 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA45525; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:27:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:27:18 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Jacques Vidrine Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why GPLing BSD-license code spells trouble Message-ID: <19990119012718.C42642@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118092136.0465ede0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118095621.04517460@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118114510.0475fa90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118133648.064c47f0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990118140907.0628fef0@mail.lariat.org> <199901182145.PAA02239@spawn.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901182145.PAA02239@spawn.nectar.com>; from Jacques Vidrine on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:45:18PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:45:18PM -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > On 18 January 1999 at 14:13, Brett Glass wrote: > > Not directly. However, it is also true that a compilation including > > BSD code is being released under the GPL. > > Fair enough. Might I suggest that you start a thread regarding > why this is bad, and what arguments one should use to discourage > it? I'm enough annoyed by this practice that I'll let the cat out of the bag (note that this makes the Linux kernel non-reproducible): It is bad because the result is only re-distributable in source form - no binaries allowed. I'm slightly doubting as to whether source code is allowed, either, but finding out would require more careful review. You can infer from GPL section 6/8, GPL section 3 (with attention to subclause b), and the BSD license clause 2. I'm not reproducing the relevant parts here, due to the extreme amount of rambling in the GPL. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 17:44:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19539 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19526 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA38277; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:27:04 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:59:20 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:27:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38273.916709223@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You've quite obviously missed the point... you probably haven't used Linux > to any great degree (maybe proudly); but the IRC avenue for help is highly > developed on the specific linux IRC servers. I realise that #linux is just > as bad on EFNET but try the linpeople.org servers and you will see what I > was trying to get across. IRC is a highly responsive form of peer help and I hardly think that I've missed the point at all. You raised a specific objection to EFNET (and read your mail again if you have any doubts), you made it sound as if this was somehow a FreeBSD specific problem without making the relevant observation that #linux was no better. As to whether or not private channels can be formed with different objectives in mind, that would be an entirely separate thread and I didn't see anything in your original message which led me to believe that you had any broader objectives in mind - if you wanted to start a more productive freepeople.org, or whatever, why didn't you just SAY SO and not engage in wholly irrelevant and misleading accusations about EFNET? Sorry, but the lack of substance in your postings so far leads me to no other conclusion than the fact that you simply wanted to vent on us. That's too bad, as it accomplishes nothing. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 17:57:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA21116 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 20499 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 01:57:01 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 01:57:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA07948; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:59:12 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:59:12 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <38273.916709223@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > You've quite obviously missed the point... you probably haven't used Linux > > to any great degree (maybe proudly); but the IRC avenue for help is highly > > developed on the specific linux IRC servers. I realise that #linux is just > > as bad on EFNET but try the linpeople.org servers and you will see what I > > was trying to get across. IRC is a highly responsive form of peer help and > > I hardly think that I've missed the point at all. You raised a > specific objection to EFNET (and read your mail again if you have any > doubts), you made it sound as if this was somehow a FreeBSD specific My ??objection to EFNET as you rephrase it, is not an objection at all. It is an observation of extremely poor IRC etiquette to those asking questions; and a suggestion that we could lift the standard. The topic of the channel today is for example: ] *** Topic for #freebsd: <|Quasar|> *Katana* Beholder of the concrete ] dildo. ] *** #freebsd tog 916690716 ] *** #FreeBSD 903634712 As someone else has observed, my expectations of the channel came from someone who was used to the 'Linux way' on IRC servers. I now don't particularly care for the FreeBSD IRC channel on EFNET... but the FreeBSD FAQ clearly says: ] 1.14. Are there FreeBSD IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channels? ] ] Yes, most major IRC networks host a FreeBSD chat channel: ] ] Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet provides technical discussions on FreeBSD ] and often advanced solutions involving it. Questions that are more then ] adequately addressed in the FAQ and Handbook are heavily discouraged. ] Available at server irc.chat.org. I don't call "concrete dildos" (see topic above) "technical discussion" unless you particularly want one in one of your ports (computer or flesh variety). Your message has unfortunately focussed on my correct observation that you had missed the point. The rest of your message was pure fluff without much substance. Regards O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:00:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nitelife.ddns.org (h24-64-160-38.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.160.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21352 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:57:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vampyro@nitelife.ddns.org) Received: (from vampyro@localhost) by nitelife.ddns.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA01265; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:37:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from vampyro) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:37:33 -0500 (EST) From: iostreamH To: "Oben O. Candemir" Subject: RE: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just for starters I find #FreeBSD and #linux* on the efnet equally as bad, #linux on the undernet is worse. Your best bet for freebsd help on irc is #freebsd on the undernet, they don't do any hand holding but they usually point you to the correct doc's. Personally I think many of the op's in freebsd on the efnet aren't freebsd advocates, just ppl who want to have their own semi-private os so they can be "leet". After all, when a former linux user ask's "does freebsd do ip-masq?" it's easier to type "man ipnat" in a channel window than it is to do a kick-ban. It's just another missed oppertunity to advocate our superior os. regards iostreamH On 18-Jan-99 Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > I have been using SysV Unices for 5-6 years and last year installed Linux > on my home machine. On the many occasions I required help; I got it from > Linux gurus on thr IRC channels on the irc.linpeople.org > servers and received excellent help. Along the way I helped many other > newbies with my general Unix knowledge. The Linux channels have an ethos > that says no question is dumb or lame. No one is kicked or banned from a > channel because of the pervasive 'calm' and responsiveness the 'elders' > provide to newbies. In fact I don't think the chanop paradigm is in > operation. > > Now to the point... > > I installed FreeBSD after reading many favourable reviews of it and the > time came to join an IRC channel for quick help... EFNET's #freebsd > channel to be precise. I had read the FAQ and it warned me that each of > the channels had a distinct 'style'. I must say that while on the channel > the amount of bullshit and tripe I witnessed was unbelievable. A > cliquey group of unix sysadmins were calling newbies 'lamers', 'loozers', > 'lemurs', 'wankers', etc. Kicking and banning for very soft reasons. I saw > more profanity than what you would expect on a general channel. I was > apalled. > > I'm not surprised the FreeBSD camp are playing 'second fiddle' to Linux in > the interested and willing 'newbies'; and the computer press' > consciousness. > > As a convert to FreeBSD, I urge others interested in promoting FreeBSD to > clean up the act and present the OS on IRC channels in a friendlier > fashion. > > PS: If you don't believe me either join the channel and ask a few > questions or look at the #FreeBSD channel logs for EFNET > located at http://www.emsphone.com/FreeBSD (yes think what you will, the > channels are logged) and judge the quality for yourselves. > > > Best Wishes > O Candemir > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Rob S Date: 18-Jan-99 Time: 19:23:36 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:15:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23866 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA38552; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:15:53 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:59:12 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:15:53 -0800 Message-ID: <38548.916712153@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Look, I'll spell it out more directly since we seem to be, as the cop said in "Cool Hand Luke", failing to communicate: Don't use EFNET and don't come crying to us when any temporary lapse of sanity should lead you to do so. Your comments about Linux being kinder and gentler in that respect are the purest bovine exhaust as I've already illustrated. EFNET in general is a cesspool and probably shouldn't be mentioned in the Handbook, in fact, I'll take that mention right out. If you want a kinder, gentler IRC then go use irc.freebsd.org, as we also point to in a few places. There's hardly anyone there, unfortunately, since providing voluntary tech support is a thankless job which people seem to regard as a god-given right, and they chased off most of the early volunteers who tried to do so on irc.freebsd.org. There may, nonetheless, be a couple left. Heck, if you're feeling inclined to spend even a tenth of the energy you've seen fit to waste on this thread so far, you might hang out for awhile and answer someone else's questions. I have it on good authority that this is how the interactive self-help process starts. Good luck, have fun, etc. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:22:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24385 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24365 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:22:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 18480 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 02:22:11 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 02:22:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09221; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:21 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:21 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <38273.916709223@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > that you had any broader objectives in mind - if you wanted to start a > more productive freepeople.org, or whatever, why didn't you just SAY > SO and not engage in wholly irrelevant and misleading accusations > about EFNET? > Jordan, I've just looked at the output of: /who #freebsd -chops Lo and Behold the output includes: #FreeBSD jkh H@ jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) You are obviously not an indifferent individual in re this topic and I understand why you have taken the criticisms I have made to heart. And also why you have rephrased my messages to your heart's content. You ARE one of the arrogant lot calling themselves chanops on #freebsd. A clearer picture is emerging me thinks... Since you are one of the ops on #freebsd I urge you to join not the #linux channel on EFNET which we both agree is as bad as *your* (since you belong to it- or it belongs to you) channel #freebsd on EFNET but: irc.linpeople.org and /join #linpeople observe for half an hour and try to aim for that quality of IRC interaction OR apply to remove the highly MISLEADING FreeBSD FAQ description of your channel as one for "technical discussion" and "advanced" solutions. "I bite my thumb at you sir"... Regards O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:34:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25727 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25606 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 29817 invoked by uid 1085); 19 Jan 1999 02:34:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19990118183418.A29705@nihilist.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:34:18 -0800 From: Travis Cole To: "Oben O. Candemir" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.2 In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 10:01:59AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just for your information. We are trying to start a #freebsd on openprojects.net, AKA irc.linpeople.org. Its really small now, but I'm working to change that. -- --Travis Sheep go to heaven. Goats go to hell. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:35:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:35:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25953 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 22426 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 02:35:07 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 02:35:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09880; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:18 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:18 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <38548.916712153@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > kinder and gentler in that respect are the purest bovine exhaust as > I've already illustrated. EFNET in general is a cesspool and probably > shouldn't be mentioned in the Handbook, in fact, I'll take that > mention right out. You could have stated that you were a chanop on #freebsd from the start... Afterall, you can't tell a parent their child is ugly. You ought to move the whole 'cesspool' channel to #pseudoBSD or #losersBSD and allow someone more able to run #freebsd in a manner that REFLECTS upon the majority of users. Otherwise... may you live long and go on spurting bovine exhaust... and smelling it. Whichever takes your fancy. Added to .procmailrc -> :0 * FROM.*jkh /dev/null To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:45:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27219 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:45:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA21997; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:45:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990118204515.J12236@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:45:15 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Oben O. Candemir" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: <38548.916712153@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:37:18PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:37:18PM +1100, a little birdie told me that Oben O. Candemir remarked > > You ought to move the whole 'cesspool' channel to #pseudoBSD or #losersBSD > and allow someone more able to run #freebsd in a manner that REFLECTS upon > the majority of users. Which are you failing to recognize? A) EFNET is not the place to go. No if's, and's, or but's. B) If an IRC channel reflected on the majority of users, it would be empty. C) If you don't like it, no one's sitting there with a gun forcing you to read it. D) If you want an IRC channel to be the 'place to go' for intelligent conversation, perhaps you should try looking around more often. --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:49:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27721 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27712 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:49:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA38689; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:49:08 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:21 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:49:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38685.916714148@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've just looked at the output of: > > /who #freebsd -chops Congrats! I wondered how many days it would take you to figure that one out. Most seem to pick up on that inside of 15 seconds, to be frank. > You are obviously not an indifferent individual in re this topic and I > understand why you have taken the criticisms I have made to heart. And Not at all. See everything I just said about EFNET being a cesspool. I *know* it's a cesspool since I often leave an IRC client up and connected there (though I might not always be watching) and I'm generally vastly amused at the antics of the people I see in the channel. Amused, and nothing more. It's like a walk through Hamburg's red light district - interesting sights to see even though you probably (if you're at all discerning) wouldn't want to partake of the attractions in any more personal way. The substance of your complaints so far seems to be that you *did* wish to partake of all this particular red light district's attractions and now you're whining that you caught syphilis. Well gee, I'm sorry that the product didn't come with more warning labels! :-) One would have also thought that the channel topic might have kept the more observant tourists out, but still they continue to bumble into the south side of Chicago and get mugged... You out-of-towners shouldn't wear those garish flowered shirts, they just mark you for abuse like a piss-stain on white pants. > also why you have rephrased my messages to your heart's content. You ARE > one of the arrogant lot calling themselves chanops on #freebsd. A clearer > picture is emerging me thinks... Actually, I think you can't see the forest for the trees and should not mistake that fuzzy view you currently have through the windscreen as "a clear picture" by any means. :) I get opped there because I'm jkh, and if you were jkh you'd get opped too, regardless of your degree of participation in channel politics. Not that I object, necessarily, since it does give me the option of kicking off the idiots who periodically come through with their "you all suck, Red Hat Rules all of you!" commentary, somehow thinking that this particular "joke" didn't get old with the 5000th repetition. As to your suggestion that I join linpeople or whatever, why? As I said before, I "hang out" on EFNET specifically because it's amusing. IRC is not, for me, an instrument of anything more than general amusement, nor do I have enough faith in the underlying technology to try and make any more out of it than that and nor should you. If one had an AOL style voting engine, where people could throttle back the "speakers corner" percentage of the population, a percentage which is inevitable and quickly sours anyone with a desire for "civilized discourse" on the whole concept, then it might just start to work. You think they do those live internet chat channel celebrity interviews with technologies like IRC? Heck no, it's all moderated to hell and doesn't have problems like flooders, spam bots, channel take-overs or legions of 15 year olds who are bored, horny and looking for an outlet. Well, perhaps most people on IRC are bored and horny, but some choose to exhibit this differently. :) > "I bite my thumb at you sir"... "I roll my eyes at you, sir" You continue to insist that hammering in those nails with that screwdriver is a good idea and nothing I say seems to disabuse you of such wacky notions. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:50:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28090 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles139.castles.com [208.214.165.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28080 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00764; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199901190246.SAA00764@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:21 +1100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:46:39 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oben - a point you appear to be indifferent to: - You're comparing the support you got on a linux-specific network via a linux-particular support channel to the response you received from a vaguely FreeBSD-oriented social group. If you want FreeBSD support, use our mailing lists, like we tell you to. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:50:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28122 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28112 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA38724; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:29 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:18 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:29 -0800 Message-ID: <38721.916714229@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You could have stated that you were a chanop on #freebsd from the start... > > Afterall, you can't tell a parent their child is ugly. > Dude, you're smoking crack. I have absolutely no love for EFNET and never did. I'm there for personal amusement. I didn't create the channel and have no control over its name, I just joined it. Jeeze, get a GRIP! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:50:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28152 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28147 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA38740; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:47 -0800 (PST) To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:45:15 CST." <19990118204515.J12236@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38737.916714246@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you, what he said. :) > On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:37:18PM +1100, a little birdie told me that Oben O . Candemir remarked > > > > You ought to move the whole 'cesspool' channel to #pseudoBSD or #losersBSD > > and allow someone more able to run #freebsd in a manner that REFLECTS upon > > the majority of users. > > Which are you failing to recognize? > A) EFNET is not the place to go. No if's, and's, or but's. > B) If an IRC channel reflected on the majority of users, it would be > empty. > C) If you don't like it, no one's sitting there with a gun forcing you to > read it. > D) If you want an IRC channel to be the 'place to go' for intelligent > conversation, perhaps you should try looking around more often. > > > > --- > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | > * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * > | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | > * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * > | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | > * because I haven't figured out how to light the * > | middle yet" | > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 18:54:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:54:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28462 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:54:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 27994 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 02:54:47 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 02:54:47 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA10901; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:56:58 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:56:58 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Travis Cole cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <19990118183418.A29705@nihilist.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Travis Cole wrote: > > Just for your information. We are trying to start a #freebsd on > openprojects.net, AKA irc.linpeople.org. > > Its really small now, but I'm working to change that. > I look forward to it... I'm more convinced after an exchange with an EFNET #freebsd chanop (Jordan K. H.) that they are abusing the #freebsd name. If all they want is a 'cesspool' pseudo porn channel mixed in with a bit of Unix then they can rename their channel to reflect its contents. You might consider listing in the FreeBSD FAQ as the rightful place for "technical discussion" and "advanced solutions" as opposed to EFNET's "concrete dildos" (see previous messages). Best Wishes.. and I hope the channel takes off O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 19:01:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29299 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:01:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles139.castles.com [208.214.165.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29293 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00840; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199901190257.SAA00840@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: Travis Cole , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:56:58 +1100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:57:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I look forward to it... I'm more convinced after an exchange with an EFNET > #freebsd chanop (Jordan K. H.) that they are abusing the #freebsd name. As the owner/custodian of the "FreeBSD" trademark, I suspect that Jordan is probably entitled to do what he damn well pleases with it. 8) > You might consider listing in the FreeBSD FAQ as the rightful place for > "technical discussion" and "advanced solutions" as opposed to > EFNET's "concrete dildos" (see previous messages). I'd suggest a pill for your problems, but cyanide is hard to get these days. So just a quick reality check - nobody, that is _nobody_ with any access to the FreeBSD FAQ would be so naive as to consider an IRC channel as the "rightful place" for technical discussions. If you want to do something about the "content problems" on efnet's #freebsd, I recommend a Thermos, some donuts, and some ACTIVE INPUT on your part. And before you ask; yes, I lurk there, and yes, I answer technical questions when I feel like it, as do quite a number of well-informed people. We have our standards however, and I suspect that they saw you coming a mile off. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 19:11:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00934 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:11:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00924 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-79-3.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.79.3]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00870 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA00736 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:27:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199901190327.WAA00736@bellsouth.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:21 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:27:43 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Albert? Is that you? Finished 'ps' yet? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 19:17:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01444 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01438 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 21560 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 03:17:25 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 03:17:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA11020; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:19:37 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:19:37 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <38685.916714148@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The length of that last message is beginning to indicate a degree of circumlocution in what you are saying. If only others on EFNET could be as literate :O) Screwdrivers to hammer nails. I'll just note: > IRC is not, for me, an instrument of anything more than general > amusement, So it is no better or worse than your penis :) >nor do I have enough faith in the underlying technology to > try and make any more out of it than that and nor should you. If one What is it you don't have faith in exactly. All it requires to be inviting to newbies is to exercise self control. That requires 'brain technology'. I dare say you and your league may have lost some of that wading in the cesspool. Each to their own... On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I've just looked at the output of: > > > > /who #freebsd -chops > > Congrats! I wondered how many days it would take you to figure that > one out. Most seem to pick up on that inside of 15 seconds, to be > frank. > > > You are obviously not an indifferent individual in re this topic and I > > understand why you have taken the criticisms I have made to heart. And > > Not at all. See everything I just said about EFNET being a cesspool. > I *know* it's a cesspool since I often leave an IRC client up and > connected there (though I might not always be watching) and I'm > generally vastly amused at the antics of the people I see in the > channel. Amused, and nothing more. It's like a walk through > Hamburg's red light district - interesting sights to see even though > you probably (if you're at all discerning) wouldn't want to partake of > the attractions in any more personal way. > > The substance of your complaints so far seems to be that you *did* > wish to partake of all this particular red light district's > attractions and now you're whining that you caught syphilis. Well > gee, I'm sorry that the product didn't come with more warning labels! > :-) > > One would have also thought that the channel topic might have kept the > more observant tourists out, but still they continue to bumble into > the south side of Chicago and get mugged... You out-of-towners > shouldn't wear those garish flowered shirts, they just mark you for > abuse like a piss-stain on white pants. > > > also why you have rephrased my messages to your heart's content. You ARE > > one of the arrogant lot calling themselves chanops on #freebsd. A clearer > > picture is emerging me thinks... > > Actually, I think you can't see the forest for the trees and should > not mistake that fuzzy view you currently have through the windscreen > as "a clear picture" by any means. :) > > I get opped there because I'm jkh, and if you were jkh you'd get opped > too, regardless of your degree of participation in channel politics. > Not that I object, necessarily, since it does give me the option of > kicking off the idiots who periodically come through with their "you > all suck, Red Hat Rules all of you!" commentary, somehow thinking that > this particular "joke" didn't get old with the 5000th repetition. > > As to your suggestion that I join linpeople or whatever, why? As I > said before, I "hang out" on EFNET specifically because it's amusing. > > IRC is not, for me, an instrument of anything more than general > amusement, nor do I have enough faith in the underlying technology to > try and make any more out of it than that and nor should you. If one > had an AOL style voting engine, where people could throttle back the > "speakers corner" percentage of the population, a percentage which is > inevitable and quickly sours anyone with a desire for "civilized > discourse" on the whole concept, then it might just start to work. > You think they do those live internet chat channel celebrity > interviews with technologies like IRC? Heck no, it's all moderated to > hell and doesn't have problems like flooders, spam bots, channel > take-overs or legions of 15 year olds who are bored, horny and looking > for an outlet. > > Well, perhaps most people on IRC are bored and horny, but some > choose to exhibit this differently. :) > > > "I bite my thumb at you sir"... > > "I roll my eyes at you, sir" > > You continue to insist that hammering in those nails with that > screwdriver is a good idea and nothing I say seems to disabuse > you of such wacky notions. :-) > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 19:22:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02041 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wildebeest.trickster.net (trickster.net [199.1.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02036 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from travis@trickster.net) Received: from [209.154.105.213] (chi-qbu-nvb-vty213.as.wcom.net [209.154.105.213]) by wildebeest.trickster.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA26476; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:22:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901190322.WAA26476@wildebeest.trickster.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:35:43 -0500 x-sender: travis@wildebeest.trickster.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Travis Ruthenburg To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1/18/99 10:19 PM, Oben O. Candemir (dunya@one.net.au) uttered: >> IRC is not, for me, an instrument of anything more than general >> amusement, > >So it is no better or worse than your penis :) That's a terrible comparison, unless of course you find urination a general amusement. Travis Ruthenburg bjork bjork bjork travis@trickster.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 19:56:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05377 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA38977; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:56:05 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:19:37 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:56:05 -0800 Message-ID: <38973.916718165@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So it is no better or worse than your penis :) I don't know about you, but I also use mine for peeing through and that's pretty darned important. If you're only yanking yours then I can only suggest that you have not yet explored many of this fine instruments other uses. > What is it you don't have faith in exactly. All it requires to be inviting Read my lips: It's the wrong technology. Newbies do not exercise self control - never have, never will, and anyone who believes otherwise is an eternal optimist. In any case, I think other replies have more than adequately pointed out where the real problem lies here. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:10:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06751 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06716 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA33652; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:09:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Jan 1999 05:09:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir"'s message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:18 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Oben O. Candemir" writes: > > kinder and gentler in that respect are the purest bovine exhaust as > > I've already illustrated. EFNET in general is a cesspool and probably > > shouldn't be mentioned in the Handbook, in fact, I'll take that > > mention right out. > You could have stated that you were a chanop on #freebsd from the start... > Afterall, you can't tell a parent their child is ugly. > [more bs deleted] You're not impressing anyone. For the record, Jordan is CEO of FreeBSD, Inc. as well as release engineer and spokesperson for the FreeBSD project. What he says goes. DES (also a chanop on #FreeBSD) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:11:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06805 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:11:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06800 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:11:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:59920 "EHLO shattered" ident: "veers") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61530-26103>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:10:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:10:50 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Perel To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > ] *** Topic for #freebsd: <|Quasar|> *Katana* Beholder of the concrete > ] dildo. > ] *** #freebsd tog 916690716 > ] *** #FreeBSD 903634712 <> > I don't call "concrete dildos" (see topic above) "technical discussion" > unless you particularly want one in one of your ports (computer or flesh > variety). I think the overall point you are missing is that #freebsd on EFNET is _NOT_ by any stretch a technical discussion channel. It is merely a place where people who happen to run FreeBSD come to talk and unwind. The problem arises when poeple such as yourself come there and whine about 'upholding the FreeBSD name' or somesuch. I repeat. #freebsd is NOT a place where the regulars come to help others, or to seek help. This is the common misconception - you would not believe the number of people who come there, treat the semi-helpful like shit, and expect to be served with delight. Eventually those who ever had the notion of being helpful become cynics and the newbie suffers. But where on earth does it say that it is a help channel? I hope by now I've established that the people there (myself included) are there purely for amusement. Can you blame anyone for considering concrete dildos amusing? The other point you ever so carefully neglected is that people DO occasionally get help there, if only for the sake of making them shut up. In fact, quite a number of FreeBSD developers are there, for the exact reason outlined above. Help that is given is a side effect of all this talent concentrated in one forum. We are just not very welcoming of umptillion people asking the same questions, a lot of which are along the lines of 'how do I set up ppp' or 'how do I add a virtual console' or something _well_documented_ like that. I repeat, #freebsd is not a techincial forum, or a help forum. Never was, and never will be. Enough ranting, I hope I've been of service. And yes, I am a regular in #freebsd, and yes, I do speak of concrete dildos. Feel free to take this up with me if you ever want to get into a lengthly discussion of the extent of your confusion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- // Alex Perel \\ \\ // // veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@gomad.com \\ \\ shotgun@feh.net // // \\ \\ Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD // // == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:14:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07060 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07052 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA33669; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:14:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: <38973.916718165@zippy.cdrom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Jan 1999 05:14:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:56:05 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > So it is no better or worse than your penis :) > I don't know about you, but I also use mine for peeing through and > that's pretty darned important. If you're only yanking yours then I > can only suggest that you have not yet explored many of this fine > instruments other uses. Omygawd... I hope someone's preserving this one for posterity :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:14:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07256 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07248 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA26737; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:14:39 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA47131; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:14:38 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:14:37 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Message-ID: <19990119051437.G42642@bitbox.follo.net> References: <38685.916714148@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 02:19:37PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 02:19:37PM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: [jkh on not beliving in IRC] > > nor do I have enough faith in the underlying technology to > > try and make any more out of it than that and nor should you. If one > > What is it you don't have faith in exactly. All it requires to be inviting > to newbies is to exercise self control. That requires 'brain technology'. > I dare say you and your league may have lost some of that wading in the > cesspool. Part of the problem is one of exhaustion. When you've answered the same question a hundred times (as in literal number), and you've spent time on getting the section in the handbook that describe it to be readable, and five somebodies turn up and insists on being handheld through the procedure "bcoz I dont liq readin' dox", a lot of your patience will be worn away. I still hang in #freebsd on EFNet (I'm also one of the chanops); I try to answer questions if nobody else does. However, if somebody are not willing to help themselves - e.g, I give a reference to the manpage and they insist on not reading it, but having me hand them an actual command to type - then I bite them off, sometimes with a kick (but seldom with a ban - and I _do_ explain the situation to them in MSGs if they don't re-join inside a minute). My original reason for joining #freebsd on EFNet instead of IRCNet (where I used to hang before, and which is a much more quiet and nice place) was to have a larger set of people to help. As it is, there is an "infinite" set of people to help, and a very limited set of people to provide the help. This means we all have to prioritize - personally, I have to prioritize between just helping people, coding on FreeBSD, just chatting randomly, coding work stuff, and having a life. If somebody is nice about it, I'm willing to let his need change my priorities enough that I help him. However, if somebody becomes demanding and is (in my opinion) wasting my time to save a tiny amount of his, I get annoyed. At that point, the /kick fingers are easy to reach for. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:20:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08378 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08363 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 23192 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 04:20:25 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 04:20:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA13309 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:22:36 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:22:36 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:21:08 +1100 (EST) To: Jordan K. Hubbard Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? > > So it is no better or worse than your penis :) > > I don't know about you, but I also use mine for peeing through and > that's pretty darned important. If you're only yanking yours then I > can only suggest that you have not yet explored many of this fine > instruments other uses. Such as? Putting it in a fellow chanop's poop chute? :) > > What is it you don't have faith in exactly. All it requires to be inviting > > Read my lips: It's the wrong technology. Newbies do not exercise self > control - never have, never will, and anyone who believes otherwise is > an eternal optimist. Read your lips? I can't exactly see your tight jeans from where I am unfortunately... Must be a view indeed :) My point (you've missed it again...) was not for newbies to exercise self control; I acknowledge that they can't... read it again... its for the big mouthed chanops to do so). Its patently obvious you don't seek support as a newbie does. Stop being such an elitist drag. > In any case, I think other replies have more than adequately pointed > out where the real problem lies here. :) Other replies? Like this one? ============= iostreamH: "Personally I think many of the op's in freebsd on the efnet aren't freebsd advocates, just ppl who want to have their own semi-private os so they can be "leet"." ============= and this one? ============= Travis Cole: "Just for your information. We are trying to start a #freebsd on openprojects.net, AKA irc.linpeople.org." ============= I'm mildly sickened to hear that you are the custodian of the *FreeBSD* name. I hope your developers share in your ethics of 'cesspoolism' and misleading FAQs... you are really dragging the FreeBSD name down the tube by allowing "concrete dildos" to become involved. What age are we living in anyway? The stone age? ;) I hope we can end this by agreeing to disagree. You can lurk in #freebsd if that amuses you... just change the FAQ asap. O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:25:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:25:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08839 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 18105 invoked from network); 19 Jan 1999 04:25:18 -0000 Received: from modem13-syd-isp-16.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.0.141) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 04:25:18 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA13552; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:27:29 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:27:29 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You're not impressing anyone. > > For the record, Jordan is CEO of FreeBSD, Inc. as well as release > engineer and spokesperson for the FreeBSD project. What he says goes. > > DES (also a chanop on #FreeBSD) I'm not trying to impress. And I wasn't aware that FreeBSD was a dictatorship. That is quotable enough to go to the Computer press. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:28:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09298 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:28:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09292 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:28:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA39159; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:28:22 -0800 (PST) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:22:36 +1100." Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:28:21 -0800 Message-ID: <39156.916720101@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So glad you saw fit to post what wasn't even worth reading in private. I think this will be your last visit to -chat; you have nothing worth reading to contribute to it. - Jordan > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:21:08 +1100 (EST) > To: Jordan K. Hubbard > Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? > > > > > > So it is no better or worse than your penis :) > > > > I don't know about you, but I also use mine for peeing through and > > that's pretty darned important. If you're only yanking yours then I > > can only suggest that you have not yet explored many of this fine > > instruments other uses. > > Such as? Putting it in a fellow chanop's poop chute? :) > > > > What is it you don't have faith in exactly. All it requires to be invitin g > > > > Read my lips: It's the wrong technology. Newbies do not exercise self > > control - never have, never will, and anyone who believes otherwise is > > an eternal optimist. > > Read your lips? I can't exactly see your tight jeans from where I am > unfortunately... Must be a view indeed :) > My point (you've missed it again...) was not for newbies to exercise self > control; I acknowledge that they can't... read it again... its for > the big mouthed chanops to do so). Its patently obvious you don't seek > support as a newbie does. Stop being such an elitist drag. > > > > In any case, I think other replies have more than adequately pointed > > out where the real problem lies here. :) > > Other replies? Like this one? > > ============= > iostreamH: > > "Personally I think many of the op's in freebsd on the efnet > aren't freebsd advocates, just ppl who want to have their > own semi-private os so they can be "leet"." > ============= > > and this one? > > ============= > Travis Cole: > > "Just for your information. We are trying to start a #freebsd on > openprojects.net, AKA irc.linpeople.org." > ============= > > I'm mildly sickened to hear that you are the custodian of the *FreeBSD* > name. I hope your developers share in your ethics of 'cesspoolism' and > misleading FAQs... you are really dragging the FreeBSD name down the tube > by allowing "concrete dildos" to become involved. What age are we living > in anyway? The stone age? > > ;) > > I hope we can end this by agreeing to disagree. You can lurk in #freebsd > if that amuses you... just change the FAQ asap. > > > O Candemir > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:30:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:30:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09463 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA26861; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:29:55 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA47254; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:29:55 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:29:55 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Message-ID: <19990119052955.H42642@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:27:29PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:27:29PM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > You're not impressing anyone. > > > > For the record, Jordan is CEO of FreeBSD, Inc. as well as release > > engineer and spokesperson for the FreeBSD project. What he says goes. > > > > DES (also a chanop on #FreeBSD) > > I'm not trying to impress. And I wasn't aware that FreeBSD was a > dictatorship. That is quotable enough to go to the Computer press. Don't listen to DES; he's a known hero-worshipper. We've caught him red-handed several times. You _have_ selected an interesting person to have your battle against, though :-) Eivind, who considers #freebsd on EFnet to have its share of problems, but don't see any easy way to fix them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:33:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09950 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:33:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09942 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:3601 "EHLO shattered" ident: "veers") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61530-26103>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:32:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:32:45 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Perel To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > > the notion of being helpful become cynics and the newbie suffers. But > > where on earth does it say that it is a help channel? > > People like me who have come from the Linux side... read the FAQ's > diligently. See FreeBSD FAQ 1.14 for my source. It clearly says that the > EFNET channel is a I quote - "technical discussion" forum. And whre on earth does it claim to be a help channel? If you'd have bothered to stick around long enough to watch and listen properly, you'd have found a few technical discussions here and there, and people being helped. The FAQ is NOT the channel's charter. The FAQ is the FAQ. If you cannot accept the idea that no one in that channel gives half a damn about what the FAQ says about #FreeBSD, you'd best look elsewhere. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- // Alex Perel \\ \\ // // veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@gomad.com \\ \\ shotgun@feh.net // // \\ \\ Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD // // == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:35:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10197 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs44p15.remote.umass.edu [128.119.179.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10192 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:35:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA07570 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:35:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:35:32 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Message-ID: <19990118233532.A7346@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: <38721.916714229@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <38721.916714229@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 06:50:29PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I read chat and know it's an unrestricted, casual conversation sort of thing, but that doesn't mean I tolerate just any kind of noise. Oben Candemir earned a /dev/null entry in my procmailrc after about three postings. Only "Archimedes Plutonium" of sci.logic/sci.physics got there faster. It only took one from him. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:46:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12287 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs44p15.remote.umass.edu [128.119.179.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12281 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA07631 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:46:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:46:35 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Overclocking Celeron 300A Message-ID: <19990118234635.A7597@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm aware of the warnings against overclocking, and this isn't intended as a troll, however: 1. tomsharware & anandtech indicate that overclocking the Celeron 300A to 450 is pretty reliably doable. 2. At that speed, the Celeron performance stacks up pretty well against a full-fledged PII (At least in WinStone and Quake). 3. The Celeron costs about $70 PII450 $470 Even with a shortened lifespan and potential reliability problems, it seems to me, based on this, that buying a Celeron and overclocking it may be a perfectly rational thing to do. I was just wondering if anyone here is doing that. If so how's it working? Got a "worldstone"? Or am I missing something that makes this a really stupid idea. (By the way, I'm not talking about a production machine, just my home PC.) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 20:51:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13126 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:11281 "EHLO shattered" ident: "veers") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61530-26104>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:51:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:51:04 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Perel To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > The FAQ is NOT the channel's charter. The FAQ is the FAQ. If you > > cannot accept the idea that no one in that channel gives half a damn about > > what the FAQ says about #FreeBSD, you'd best look elsewhere. > > That is truly sad. Dud FAQ. I hear the second fiddle again. Nowhere does it say that the FAQ tells #freebsd regulars what to do and how to behave. And.. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/doc/FAQ/preface.sgml.diff?r1=1.24&r2=1.25 Go there and weep. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- // Alex Perel \\ \\ // // veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@gomad.com \\ \\ shotgun@feh.net // // \\ \\ Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD // // == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 21:11:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15451 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:11:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (root@host-209-214-76-67.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.76.67]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01265 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA09665 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:27:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199901190527.AAA09665@bellsouth.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:51:04 EST." Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:27:22 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why do I get the feeling that Albert and Oben are really pseudonyms for Eric Raymond? ;-) J. Hicks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 21:14:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15822 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:14:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15812 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA33915; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:14:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Jan 1999 06:14:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir"'s message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:59 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Oben O. Candemir" writes: > [snip] The interesting thing is that while you are complaining about the #FreeBSD cahnnel's SNR, the channel's logs indicate that you have made a significant contribution to the "N" part of "SNR", as a consequence of which you were kicked by Eivind. No wonder you have a grudge. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 22:21:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22751 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22732; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.16]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3EA9; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:21:47 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990119051437.G42642@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:29:47 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Oben O. Candemir" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-99 Eivind Eklund wrote: > change my priorities enough that I help him. However, if somebody > becomes demanding and is (in my opinion) wasting my time to save a > tiny amount of his, I get annoyed. At that point, the /kick fingers > are easy to reach for. /ignore Eivind, /ignore ;) Anyways, apparantly Mr. Candemir dislikes the EFNet style of chatting and would be more fond of either IRCNet's or Undernet's #FreeBSD channels, however that could be doubtful... (There is a difference in styles between IRC, Under and EFNet) As on topic about the concrete dildo's =) Seems like most tech channels have a slight knack for pr0n =P regards from an Undernet #FreeBSD regular, --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 18 23:26:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28574 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:26:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA21249; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:50:27 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990119165019.33506@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:50:19 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: Travis Cole , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: <19990118183418.A29705@nihilist.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:56:58PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:56:58PM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > > I look forward to it... I'm more convinced after an exchange with an EFNET > #freebsd chanop (Jordan K. H.) that they are abusing the #freebsd name. And you, sir, are abusing the newbies name. Every syllable that oozes from your mouth reflects badly on all newbies. Actions like yours are part of the cause of intolerance. You are not yet familiar with how the community works but you're making too many assumptions before you speak. In that situation you are bound to lose any argument. But once you embarrass yourself you feel obliged to come back again and again until you "win". THAT WON'T EVER HAPPEN. Please consider adopting the same level of social responsibility that you are trying to sell to others. Instead of whining about what people should be forced to do for you, how about coming up with something you can do for others, like everyone else here has done? Nobody's going to force you to volunteer for anything you don't want to do, and nobody expects you to tell them what to volunteer, either. If we didn't disagree about a few things occasionally we'd never come up with anything new. That doesn't mean it has to become a major incident. Speak for yourself, say your piece once, then let it die, even if that means silently watching others let off steam, taking a few knocks, swallowing your pride, and doing some of the work for yourself. And don't *ever* degrade our proud title by claiming to speak for newbies. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 00:30:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04014 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:30:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04007 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16767; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990119002950.A16749@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:29:50 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: chat@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This email is directed at residence of the San Francisco Bay Area. All other recipients, please ignore. Several times in the last few months the subject has come up as to wither we should be holding meetings in other locations besides San Francisco. A number of people have suggested that many people who might be interested in attending BAFUG meetings are no doing so because of the distance and the hassel of driving from the South Bay or the East Bay. Several business have offered to host our meetings in both the East and the South bay. If there are any out there that are interested in either an East Bay or a South Bay chapter of BAFUG please respond to either jgrosch@MooseRiver.com or chat@bafug.org. You will have to subscribe to chat@bafug.org first. Thanks Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 03:04:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21153 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DegNet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21144 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (GateWay [192.168.168.1]) by DegNet.de (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA03893; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:03:47 +0100 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10007; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:26:18 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199901190926.KAA10007@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:26:16 +0100 (CET) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Re: Car Mp3 Player To: zach@uffdaonline.net cc: kelly@plutotech.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, brownicm@prokyon.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990112040614.A6692@znh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Jan, Zach Heilig wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 07:31:50PM -0700, Sean Kelly wrote: >> But in my home, yes. The machine room (well, machine closet is more >> accurate), has a rack with my main fileserver in it, which recently got >> a sound card installed into it. I've been using "tosha" (in the ports >> collection) to "rip" the data off audio CDs and saving them to disk. >> I'm using "sox" to convert the raw PCM data into .wav format. And I'm >> using the 8hz MP3 encoder (see http://www.8hz.com) to encode them. 8hz >> provides a FreeBSD binary of their encoder free of charge. There are licensing problems with Fraunhofer. Due to this problems, they stopped the public distribution. If you are lucky, you may find the software with ftp-search ;) > > FWIW, I've noticed that stuff encoded with 8hz doesn't always sound quite > right. It's very subtile, but can become annoying at times. There is another > free mp3 encoder at ' http://bladeenc.home.ml.org ', with a BSDi binary (not > sure if there is a FreeBSD one there or not, I haven't looked for a few > months). This one has far better sound to my ears. > ML-ORG shut down. The original bladeenc-site is: http://home8.swipnet.se/~w-82625/ as long as the author finds a new URL-redirection-service. The transferrates from this site to germany are horribly low (ca. 56 Byte/s). Malte. -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 03:04:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21303 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:04:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DegNet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21297 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (GateWay [192.168.168.1]) by DegNet.de (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA03896; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:03:48 +0100 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10016; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:33:07 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199901190933.KAA10016@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:33:05 +0100 (CET) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Re: Car Mp3 Player To: zach@uffdaonline.net cc: kelly@plutotech.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, brownicm@prokyon.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990112040614.A6692@znh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Jan, Zach Heilig wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 07:31:50PM -0700, Sean Kelly wrote: >> But in my home, yes. The machine room (well, machine closet is more >> accurate), has a rack with my main fileserver in it, which recently got >> a sound card installed into it. I've been using "tosha" (in the ports >> collection) to "rip" the data off audio CDs and saving them to disk. >> I'm using "sox" to convert the raw PCM data into .wav format. And I'm >> using the 8hz MP3 encoder (see http://www.8hz.com) to encode them. 8hz >> provides a FreeBSD binary of their encoder free of charge. > > FWIW, I've noticed that stuff encoded with 8hz doesn't always sound quite > right. It's very subtile, but can become annoying at times. There is another > free mp3 encoder at ' http://bladeenc.home.ml.org ', with a BSDi binary (not > sure if there is a FreeBSD one there or not, I haven't looked for a few > months). This one has far better sound to my ears. > Just after pressing "Send" ... blablabla ... the old story bladeenc is available as FreeBSD & BSD-OS static linked binary and as FreeBSD-Alpha binary. Malte. -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 03:34:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24418 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24402 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA04615 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:33:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m102YEF-000WyXC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:17:47 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Date: 19 Jan 1999 11:17:44 +0100 Message-ID: <781m48$cqj$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199901190527.AAA09665@bellsouth.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199901190527.AAA09665@bellsouth.net>, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Why do I get the feeling that Albert and Oben are > really pseudonyms for Eric Raymond? Oh, come on. Eric Raymond may be a Linux zealot who for some reason is struck with utter blindness wrt BSD, but he's no idiot. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 05:22:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05369 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05364 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/best.sh) id FAA14974; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:22:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990119052228.D10276@best.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:22:28 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <39156.916720101@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <39156.916720101@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 08:28:21PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 08:28:21PM -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > So glad you saw fit to post what wasn't even worth reading in private. > I think this will be your last visit to -chat; you have nothing worth > reading to contribute to it. > > - Jordan > Jordan. Hi. Could you do us all little favor? Could you add this guy to your procmail filter? Thank you. :) -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 05:30:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05763 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05758 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:30:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA00913; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:29:59 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19990119142959.A905@cons.org> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:29:59 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Mark Kobussen , Jonas Luster Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks References: <36A1FC16.9A8A840D@uk.radan.com> <19990117184535.B27834@nethammer.qad.org> <19990118115904.N55525@freebie.lemis.com> <19990118031131.A33010@nethammer.qad.org> <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com>; from Mark Kobussen on Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 08:17:48PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com>, Mark Kobussen wrote: > Ich vergessen, aber ich immer bloed sein. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen, > ein kleines Bisschen! > > I think that's about all the German I remember. I stayed in Bayern for a ^^^^^^ No wonder you don't remember too much real German language :-] I can understand you German better than some Bavarian's... Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 05:33:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06080 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ceia.nordier.com (m2-56-dbn.dial-up.net [196.34.155.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06070 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rnordier@nordier.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA15489; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:32:56 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199901191332.PAA15489@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:32:51 +0200 (SAT) Cc: dunya@one.net.au (Oben O. Candemir) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Various people wrote: | I think this will be your last visit to -chat; you have nothing | worth reading to contribute to it. | I read chat and know it's an unrestricted, casual conversation sort | of thing, but that doesn't mean I tolerate just any kind of noise. | Oben Candemir earned a /dev/null entry in my procmailrc after about | three postings. | Every syllable that oozes from your mouth reflects badly on all | newbies. Actions like yours are part of the cause of intolerance. | Oh, come on. Eric Raymond may be a Linux zealot who for some reason | is struck with utter blindness wrt BSD, but he's no idiot. It seems rather mean-spirited to continue to attack someone in public who has been denied the further means to defend himself. (Assuming, that Jordan has had Oben excluded from the list, as appeared to be his intention.) Personally, I was appalled how quickly what began as a mostly- reasonable suggestion was escalated (as much by a dismissive and patronizing tone on the FreeBSD side as by any contribution from Mr Candemir) to such a degree of unpleasantness. This kind of thing does no-one credit; and blithely pretending the faults were all on Mr Candemir's side is neither a particularly constructive attitude, nor a markedly mature response, in the wake of a regrettable incident. -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 05:41:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07163 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA07158 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA01074; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:41:27 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19990119144126.B905@cons.org> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:41:27 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Overclocking Celeron 300A References: <19990118234635.A7597@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19990118234635.A7597@oitunix.oit.umass.edu>; from Greg Pavelcak on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 11:46:35PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I overclocked a 300A to various speed and various voltages between 2.0 and 2.2 Volts in an Asus P2B. On 450MHz (2.2 Volts) it runs Windows, Games etc. but it does not survive a FreeBSD make world, the hardest test on my plate. Most overclocking advocates do not test that hard, and this frequency might be stable enough for operating system that crash more often than the overclocked hardware, but it just isn't 100% reliable. Having said this, at 375MHz/2.0 (0.83 MHz on Busx4.5) volts I could do whatever I want and it is stable. I truely beleive that these Chips are designed for higher frequencies than 300 MHz. I can also confirm that a Celeron with 128 MB cache at full speed is the same speed as a PII with 512KB cache half speed at the same frequency for tests like games, FreeBSD compilation etc. The real problem with the Celerons is that I can't get any descent material to mount it on my P2B. Also, all the people who got PPROs 200 in 1996 overclocked them, but most began to fail after one year of continuous operation, so prepare to buy a new chip someday. On the other hand, it is easily imagineable that these Celeron 300 are really higher clockable chips, given that Intel produces similar chips with up to 450 MHz, while a PPRO 200 was top of list at that time. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 05:56:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11331 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11326 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/best.sh) id FAA18029; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:55:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990119055556.A16381@best.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:55:56 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? (fwd) References: <19990119052228.D10276@best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:46:17AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:46:17AM +1100, "Oben O. Candemir" wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > > Jordan. Hi. Could you do us all little favor? Could you add > > this guy to your procmail filter? Thank you. :) > > I think that provided you ignore the latter messages which were the > result of an error on my part, I did raise an issue that has obviously > touched a nerve somewhere. I think the issue is much deeper than just a > "debate" about IRC styles of various FreeBSD channels. > > The FreeBSD community has a real need (assuming it wants or needs to > expand) at some point to seriously look at its public face. You might say > that judging by my brief experience on this mailing list that people need > quality support. And that is true for free software as much as (if not > more so) it is for commercial software. Who else do we have to turn to? For tech support see: http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/consulting.html For free tech support mail 'questions@freebsd.org' I used to hang out on #freebsd - and I found that it sucks. I left. Sorry dood - but you are getting on my nerves. :( -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 06:50:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25411 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag1p06.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25383 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: from localhost (jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA00368; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:49:12 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:49:12 +1100 (EST) From: Jim Mock To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: Dan Langille , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Poseiden , Mourad de Riche , iostreamH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FW: RE: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > > > If you were kicked off for no good reason, see if you can get > > back on. But it depends what you said and to whom. grin > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > Can I begin by complementing you on the Diary site. I got and > installed sendmail 8.9.2 after reading the latter portions of your > experiences. > > Now... I'll assure anyone that the last time I was on the > channel(probably earlier this month) I wasn't kicked but a newbie > who just wanted to ask a couple of questions on whether Windows 98 > and FreeBSD will coexist were abused and kicked after (I believe) a > /msg to someone on the channel. > Yeah.. that stuff ain't right no matter how ya look at it. One of the main reasons I haven't used Efnet in 9 months or so.. > I'm an adult, I understand the need for an 'unwind' channel, and > have been I dare say 'educated' regarding the purpose of #freebsd on > EFNET. And believe me I'm no moral crusader or anything either but > the first contact that people have of 'freebsd' shouldn't IMHO be a > barrage of insults for being lamers. > Ditto on this one.. everyone's gotta start somewhere.. even if they are lamers.. hell, I'm one =P > I have to confess I actually like the banter on the channel and > don't mind the jokes etc. But insulting, calling people wankers etc > is not right. > Agreed. If that ever starts happening on Undernet, I won't be goin in there either. > I noted on your site that, you got some decent help from nameless > on the EFNET channel to that persons credit. That is the sort > of thing I would like to see more often. Your site is an excellent > example of how people can be helped. > > Best Regards > > O Candemir > > > Later, -- : Jim Mock | [jim@corp.au.triax.com] : : System Administrator | http://www.triax.com/ : : Triax Internet Services | ----------------------------- : : Portland, OR USA | The FreeBSD' zine : : Wagga Wagga, NSW Australia | http://www.freebsdzine.org/ : : FreeBSD: The Power To Serve | http://www.freebsd.org/ : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 08:42:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06963 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06955 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA08267; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:41:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Robert Nordier cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Oben O. Candemir" Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <199901191332.PAA15489@ceia.nordier.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps it would be best to go watch the channel and decide for yourself whether it's a 'vast wasteland' or not. I'd not really used IRC before, but a quick pkg_add and there I was, and it really wasn't that bad. I saw about 8 people come in and ask for help ranging from "what do I need to build a kernel" to "Can someone hack telnetd to support virtual hosts"... Some answers were hurried (considering the folks answering were conversing with others), but none were really rude. I saw one person repeatedly kicked by someone else, not sure why. My only real surprise was some of the nicks in use. I mean, comeon, "DrZiplok"??? :) IRC is weird. I think I'll stay away, but it wasn't really a concrete dildo fest over there. I was a bit surprised to see so many of the brass chatting. That's just my own bias, we try not to hire tech support people that 'use', as it seems to be an addiction in some circles. Charles --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com --- "...there's no idea that's so good you can't ruin it with a few well-placed idiots." On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Robert Nordier wrote: > Various people wrote: > > | I think this will be your last visit to -chat; you have nothing > | worth reading to contribute to it. > > | I read chat and know it's an unrestricted, casual conversation sort > | of thing, but that doesn't mean I tolerate just any kind of noise. > | Oben Candemir earned a /dev/null entry in my procmailrc after about > | three postings. > > | Every syllable that oozes from your mouth reflects badly on all > | newbies. Actions like yours are part of the cause of intolerance. > > | Oh, come on. Eric Raymond may be a Linux zealot who for some reason > | is struck with utter blindness wrt BSD, but he's no idiot. > > It seems rather mean-spirited to continue to attack someone in > public who has been denied the further means to defend himself. > (Assuming, that Jordan has had Oben excluded from the list, as > appeared to be his intention.) > > Personally, I was appalled how quickly what began as a mostly- > reasonable suggestion was escalated (as much by a dismissive and > patronizing tone on the FreeBSD side as by any contribution from > Mr Candemir) to such a degree of unpleasantness. > > This kind of thing does no-one credit; and blithely pretending the > faults were all on Mr Candemir's side is neither a particularly > constructive attitude, nor a markedly mature response, in the wake > of a regrettable incident. > > -- > Robert Nordier > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 09:15:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12233 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jive.dub.net (jive.dub.net [169.197.1.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12228 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@jive.dub.net) Received: (from unfurl@localhost) by jive.dub.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16815 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:15:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from unfurl) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:15:29 -0700 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Message-ID: <19990119101529.C16732@dub.net> References: <199901191332.PAA15489@ceia.nordier.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from spork on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:41:51AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:41:51AM -0500, spork@super-g.com wrote: > My only real surprise was some of the nicks in use. I mean, comeon, > "DrZiplok"??? :) spork@super-g.com?? Need I say more? hah :) (jk) -Bill -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28624 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:42:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28613 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25214; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:42:09 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199901191942.LAA25214@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG In-Reply-To: <19990119002950.A16749.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <19990119002950.A16749.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> you write: >If there are any out there that are interested in either an East Bay or a >South Bay chapter of BAFUG please respond to either jgrosch@MooseRiver.com >or chat@bafug.org. You will have to subscribe to chat@bafug.org first. I hate SF. Too crowded, and not enough parking. Somewhere else is much preferable to me -- when it was at Whistle, I was very happy, for example. (I don't know how happy Whistle was, though ;).) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 12:14:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02217 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02206 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA29528; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:13:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:13:20 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Martin Cracauer cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Overclocking Celeron 300A In-Reply-To: <19990119144126.B905@cons.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I noticed tomshardware.com has no "how to overclock your 300A". I did note that there are some notes about Intel putting a stop to overclocking by locking the chip at one speed. Anyone have the lowdown on this? I need a new machine at home, and I'm seeing the Celeron and the AMD K6-2 coming really close in price. If it's possible to reliably clock the celeron, that seems like a good deal... Anyone able to clarify the rumors? Thanks, Charles --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Martin Cracauer wrote: > I overclocked a 300A to various speed and various voltages between 2.0 > and 2.2 Volts in an Asus P2B. > > On 450MHz (2.2 Volts) it runs Windows, Games etc. but it does not > survive a FreeBSD make world, the hardest test on my plate. Most > overclocking advocates do not test that hard, and this frequency might > be stable enough for operating system that crash more often than the > overclocked hardware, but it just isn't 100% reliable. > > Having said this, at 375MHz/2.0 (0.83 MHz on Busx4.5) volts I could do > whatever I want and it is stable. I truely beleive that these Chips > are designed for higher frequencies than 300 MHz. > > I can also confirm that a Celeron with 128 MB cache at full speed is > the same speed as a PII with 512KB cache half speed at the same > frequency for tests like games, FreeBSD compilation etc. > > The real problem with the Celerons is that I can't get any descent > material to mount it on my P2B. > > Also, all the people who got PPROs 200 in 1996 overclocked them, but > most began to fail after one year of continuous operation, so prepare > to buy a new chip someday. On the other hand, it is easily imagineable > that these Celeron 300 are really higher clockable chips, given that > Intel produces similar chips with up to 450 MHz, while a PPRO 200 was > top of list at that time. > > Martin > -- > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ > BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 14:44:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19005 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:43:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA22863 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:43:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 615D81574; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:42:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:42:15 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Change in crypto policy in France Message-ID: <19990119234215.A17276@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4994 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nobody thought it would happen but it seems that France has now seen at least part of the Light. Crypto will be free expect for export (a consequence of Warsenaar(sp?) I guess). In French (sorry): Summary: they've addmitted that the current law is very unfriendly to electronic commerce (of course) and privacy and that it puts France far behind many other countries. So they've decided 1. to free all crypto. for domestic usage 2. to have export. restrictions 3. to modify the current key limit from 40 bits up to 128 for the moment (while waiting for the necessary law change) That's great news ! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 15:15:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22854 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22844; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:15:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-208.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.208]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA11036; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:15:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA05775; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:53:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199901190253.UAA05775@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eivind Eklund cc: Jacques Vidrine , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Why GPLing BSD-license code spells trouble In-reply-to: Message from Eivind Eklund of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:27:18 +0100." <19990119012718.C42642@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:53:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > You can infer from GPL section 6/8, GPL section 3 (with attention to > subclause b), and the BSD license clause 2. > > I'm not reproducing the relevant parts here, due to the extreme amount > of rambling in the GPL. Lines 6 and 7 of /usr/src/gnu/COPYING state: ] Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies ] of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. So strictly by the terms of GPL I violated it by distributing only those two lines. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 17:16:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06349 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06343 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA16092; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:43:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990119174108.04756380@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:43:15 -0700 To: Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France In-Reply-To: <19990119234215.A17276@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA06345 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Merveilleux! Les Français ont une clue. ;-) --Brett At 11:42 PM 1/19/99 +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: >Nobody thought it would happen but it seems that France has now seen at >least part of the Light. Crypto will be free expect for export (a >consequence of Warsenaar(sp?) I guess). > >In French (sorry): > > >Summary: they've addmitted that the current law is very unfriendly to >electronic commerce (of course) and privacy and that it puts France far >behind many other countries. > >So they've decided >1. to free all crypto. for domestic usage >2. to have export. restrictions >3. to modify the current key limit from 40 bits up to 128 for the moment > (while waiting for the necessary law change) > >That's great news ! >-- >Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr >FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 19:40:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom8.netcom.com (netcom8.netcom.com [192.100.81.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22169 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from das@netcom.com) Received: (from das@localhost) by netcom8.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id TAA00336; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) From: Das Devaraj Reply-To: Das Devaraj Subject: Re: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG To: Josef Grosch cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990119002950.A16749@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > If there are any out there that are interested in either an East Bay or a > South Bay chapter of BAFUG please respond... You may want to consider holding it on days other than Thursdays. About the place -- how about East Bay? das To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 21:19:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03352 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:19:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21648; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990119211927.B20997@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:19:27 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Sean Eric Fagan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990119002950.A16749.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> <199901191942.LAA25214@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901191942.LAA25214@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:42:09AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:42:09AM -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > In article <19990119002950.A16749.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> you write: > >If there are any out there that are interested in either an East Bay or a > >South Bay chapter of BAFUG please respond to either jgrosch@MooseRiver.com > >or chat@bafug.org. You will have to subscribe to chat@bafug.org first. > > I hate SF. Too crowded, and not enough parking. Sorry to hear you dislike San Francisco so much. I think it is the greatest place I have ever lived and I was born and raised in NYC. > > Somewhere else is much preferable to me -- when it was at Whistle, I was very > happy, for example. (I don't know how happy Whistle was, though ;).) AFAIK we have _NOT_ wore out out welcome at Whistle. ;-) Last time this came up in conversation I got the impression that Whistle wanted us to come back. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 21:21:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03693 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:21:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21659; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:20:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990119212048.C20997@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:20:48 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Das Devaraj Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990119002950.A16749@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Das Devaraj on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 07:39:59PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 07:39:59PM -0800, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > If there are any out there that are interested in either an East Bay or a > > South Bay chapter of BAFUG please respond... > > You may want to consider holding it on days other than Thursdays. > About the place -- how about East Bay? It looks like we have a lot of interest in an East Bay chapeter in additional to our usual meetings in San Francisco. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 21:46:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06348 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id AAA26754; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:46:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:46:31 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > > > kinder and gentler in that respect are the purest bovine exhaust as > > I've already illustrated. EFNET in general is a cesspool and probably > > shouldn't be mentioned in the Handbook, in fact, I'll take that > > mention right out. > > > You could have stated that you were a chanop on #freebsd from the start... > > Afterall, you can't tell a parent their child is ugly. > > You ought to move the whole 'cesspool' channel to #pseudoBSD or #losersBSD > and allow someone more able to run #freebsd in a manner that REFLECTS upon > the majority of users. > > Otherwise... may you live long and go on spurting bovine exhaust... and > smelling it. Whichever takes your fancy. Lemme throw something your way. It's called a clue. Jordan doesn't spend a whole lot of time on irc (if you found him there, it was a rare day, or he couldn't sleep). When he does, he's immediately op'd, as most FreeBSD users will recognize him, and being nice to anyone who's on the -core mailing list is usually in your own best interest. Now, I don't hang out in EFNet #FreeBSD much anymore, haven't in several years now. When the channel averaged ~15 people at any given time, it was mostly admins, chatting about freebsd related stuff. Last time I looked, there were over 50 people in #FreeBSD, and most were not the general user type I'd personally hang out with. Call me elitist or tasteful, your choice, but the point is, IRC is not a viable form of tech support in any fashion. Their is too much room for abuse, and no way to do any real regulation If you need help, buy a book, or call someone, but don't bitch about lack of free support on the net. FreeBSD is not Linux. The two projects have different goals and user bases. There is a small IRC network based solely on FreeBSD servers, and is home to a bunch of generally amicable FreeBSD users and admins. Adam Dace and I put the two first servers on line (irc.inna.net., and irc.netural.net., netural is gone now) four years ago. Don't ask questions in #NoHelp (gee, you would think the channel name would make it obvious), and ask all you want in #FreeBSD. You may or may not recieve an answer, but no one is going to pick on you. This has no connection to the FreeBSD project, it's just something a bunch of FreeBSD guys put together in our spare time. It's not something generally advertised, as evenings and weekends tend to be slow (we do have lives outside of work, you see), and finding dead air is the norm. If you want to hang out and answer questions, feel free, but no one is going to pay you for it, and if you get so much as a thanks, it was a good day. Welcome to volunteerism. I suppose I should quit ranting now. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 22:06:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08513 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:06:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08508 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:06:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id BAA26767; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:06:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Pavelcak cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Overclocking Celeron 300A In-Reply-To: <19990118234635.A7597@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > I'm aware of the warnings against overclocking, and this isn't > intended as a troll, however: > > 1. tomsharware & anandtech indicate that overclocking the Celeron > 300A to 450 is pretty reliably doable. > > 2. At that speed, the Celeron performance stacks up pretty well > against a full-fledged PII (At least in WinStone and Quake). > > 3. The Celeron costs about $70 PII450 $470 > > Even with a shortened lifespan and potential reliability > problems, it seems to me, based on this, that buying a Celeron > and overclocking it may be a perfectly rational thing to do. > > I was just wondering if anyone here is doing that. If so how's it > working? Got a "worldstone"? Or am I missing something that makes > this a really stupid idea. > > (By the way, I'm not talking about a production machine, just my > home PC.) You have to get a celeron/xxxA. The 'A' model is the chipspeed cache, which is why a 300A overclocked to 450 is faster than a straight P2/450. So long as you make sure they stay cool, overclocked chips should give you good reliability and performance. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 19 22:24:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10906 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10827 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.6]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5A22; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:23:49 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990119174108.04756380@mail.lariat.org> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:31:55 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Ollivier Robert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Jan-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Merveilleux! Les Français ont une clue. ;-) Yeah, and now the rest of Europe which once were export restrictionless might get the Wassenaar Arrangement to obstruct their goals. to the Dutch: Het Ministerie van Financien is de verantwoordelijke partij: http://www.minfaz.nl The Wassenaar Arrangement is still in collision with some constitutional laws. This might get fun. Any news on the Danish font btw? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 01:32:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02310 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:32:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02302 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990120093207.LYTM682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:32:07 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Oben O. Candemir" , Jamie Bowden Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:32:27 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990120093207.LYTM682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Jan 99, at 0:46, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > > > > kinder and gentler in that respect are the purest bovine exhaust as > > > I've already illustrated. EFNET in general is a cesspool and probably > > > shouldn't be mentioned in the Handbook, in fact, I'll take that > > > mention right out. > > > > You could have stated that you were a chanop on #freebsd from the > > start... OK, I guess I should say now that I'm a [recently made] channel operator on Undernet #freebsd. Most of use are regular freebsd users. As I write, there are 16 users, and nothing has been said during the past hour. That's probably because it's about 4:20am (in New York, only 10:20 pm here). > > Afterall, you can't tell a parent their child is ugly. > > > > You ought to move the whole 'cesspool' channel to #pseudoBSD or > > #losersBSD and allow someone more able to run #freebsd in a manner that > > REFLECTS upon the majority of users. > > > > Otherwise... may you live long and go on spurting bovine exhaust... and > > smelling it. Whichever takes your fancy. Ummm, I'm just rejoined chat, so I've missed most all the rest of this thread. So I really don't know what's what. There are no guarantees when it comes to free support. We do our best when we can and in the areas in which we feel competent. If we make mistakes, they were honest ones and we will both learn. The one basic rule on our channel is "Don't be rude". This applies to everyone, including the ops. We don't kick for newbie questions. In fact, we're there for the newbies. The "experts" know what to do already. It's the newbies that need help. And that's why were there. I'm speaking mainly for myself, but understand that my views are shared by most of the channel regulars. > Lemme throw something your way. It's called a clue. Jordan doesn't spend > a whole lot of time on irc (if you found him there, it was a rare day, or > he couldn't sleep). When he does, he's immediately op'd, as most FreeBSD > users will recognize him, and being nice to anyone who's on the -core > mailing list is usually in your own best interest. jkh helped me out once in #efnet (this was long before I knew who he was). So did someone else. But that was not the norm. I was a newbie seeking informaton on the basics. I didn't know what I needed to know or where to find. I choose #efnet freebsd because I heard about it. > Now, I don't hang out > in EFNet #FreeBSD much anymore, haven't in several years now. When the > channel averaged ~15 people at any given time, it was mostly admins, > chatting about freebsd related stuff. Last time I looked, there were over > 50 people in #FreeBSD, and most were not the general user type I'd > personally hang out with. We seem to fully agree on this one. I'm not sure why the people hang there, but, for the main part, I don't think it's to help others. As a newbie, I certainly didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling. And let's face it, that's what a newbie needs. They don't need someone telling them they're an idiot, or being talked down to, or being insulted. If someone is asking a question and you want to help, go ahead. But questions should be answered politely and perhaps direct the person to a resource where they can find the help they are requesting. man x is not usually enough. But if you saw "see the Y part of man X, it explains it". But let's face it, helping is not for everyone. If you don't want to help, don't. But on the same hand, don't abuse those fairly seeking help. That's just plan rude. > Call me elitist or tasteful, your choice, but > the point is, IRC is not a viable form of tech support in any fashion. > Their is too much room for abuse, and no way to do any real regulation If > you need help, buy a book, or call someone, but don't bitch about lack of > free support on the net. FreeBSD is not Linux. The two projects have > different goals and user bases. I'm not sure of the expectations of the people concerned, but I find that all of my tech support is obtained via the net. If I can't get the help I need on IRC, I search the mailing list archives. Rarely now do I have to post a question to the mailing list. But when I do, the answer usually comes through. > This has no connection to the FreeBSD project, it's > just something a bunch of FreeBSD guys put together in our spare time. > It's not something generally advertised, as evenings and weekends tend to > be slow (we do have lives outside of work, you see), and finding dead air > is the norm. If you want to hang out and answer questions, feel free, but > no one is going to pay you for it, and if you get so much as a thanks, it > was a good day. Welcome to volunteerism. Sound like our channel. We should start popping round. > I suppose I should quit ranting now. I heard no ranting. Did you? cheers -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 03:34:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16866 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DegNet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16848 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (GateWay [192.168.168.1]) by DegNet.de (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA21055; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:32:43 +0100 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04852; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:49:41 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199901200749.IAA04852@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:49:39 +0100 (CET) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks To: cracauer@cons.org cc: skjellyfetti@iname.com, jonas@nethammer.qad.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990119142959.A905@cons.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan, Martin Cracauer wrote: > In <36A299CB.FDFDBDB@iname.com>, Mark Kobussen wrote: >> Ich vergessen, aber ich immer bloed sein. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen, >> ein kleines Bisschen! >> >> I think that's about all the German I remember. I stayed in Bayern for a > ^^^^^^ > No wonder you don't remember too much real German language :-] > > I can understand you German better than some Bavarian's... So far for prejudice. BTW, your statement applies for many regions in germany ... or should "wi snack platt" ? Malte > > Martin -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 03:53:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19378 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19371 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:53:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06979; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:56:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:56:00 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <4.1.19990119174108.04756380@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 07:31:55AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 07:31:55AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 20-Jan-99 Brett Glass wrote: > > Merveilleux! Les Français ont une clue. ;-) > > Yeah, and now the rest of Europe which once were export restrictionless > might get the Wassenaar Arrangement to obstruct their goals. i've been seeing lots of this agreement being mentioned in allsorts of places on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you explain what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be bad, please not looking for laywering treastise on teh subject, grin, rather a simple web users backend .. sort of explamnation. > > to the Dutch: > > Het Ministerie van Financien is de verantwoordelijke partij: > http://www.minfaz.nl > > The Wassenaar Arrangement is still in collision with some constitutional > laws. This might get fun. > > Any news on the Danish font btw? for us too please regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 07:55:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14233 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA27017; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:52:22 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:52:21 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Greg Pavelcak cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Overclocking Celeron 300A In-Reply-To: <19990118234635.A7597@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > I'm aware of the warnings against overclocking, and this isn't > intended as a troll, however: > > 1. tomsharware & anandtech indicate that overclocking the Celeron > 300A to 450 is pretty reliably doable. > > 2. At that speed, the Celeron performance stacks up pretty well > against a full-fledged PII (At least in WinStone and Quake). > BEWARE! On a P-II, Quacke has a memory bandwidth requirement of ~ 8MB/s. Quacke's worth as a benchmark is about the same as that of say MIPS rating, only less so. > 3. The Celeron costs about $70 PII450 $470 > > Even with a shortened lifespan and potential reliability > problems, it seems to me, based on this, that buying a Celeron > and overclocking it may be a perfectly rational thing to do. > Depends on what happens if your code silently produces very wrong data from time to time. 2+2=5 anywone? > I was just wondering if anyone here is doing that. If so how's it > working? Got a "worldstone"? Or am I missing something that makes > this a really stupid idea. > > (By the way, I'm not talking about a production machine, just my > home PC.) > > Greg Sander, no, I am no fan of Intel There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 08:15:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16299 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:15:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from matrix.42.org (matrix.42.org [194.246.250.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16293 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sec@42.org) Received: (from sec@localhost) by matrix.42.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA17882 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (sender ); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:15:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:15:03 +0100 From: Stefan `Sec` Zehl To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Wake-on-lan Message-ID: <19990120171503.B17828@matrix.42.org> X-Current-Backlog: 271 messages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i I-love-doing-this: really Accept-Languages: de, en X-URL: http://sec.42.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lacking another forum, has seombody managed to get 'wake-on-lan' working ? I wrote a small program send a 'magic packet' according to the spec i found in the web, but couldn't archieve anything. CU, Sec -- Die Zahl 42 kommt erstaunlich oft vor, dafuer das sie so ungebraeuchlich ist. am 20.8.97 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 12:58:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17692 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17675 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA04915; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:56:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:56:12 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: jonathan michaels cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France In-Reply-To: <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > i've been seeing lots of this agreement being mentioned in allsorts of places > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you explain > what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be bad, please > > not looking for laywering treastise on teh subject, grin, rather a simple web > users backend .. sort of explamnation. > The United States restricts exports of "strong" encryption, although it has been loosening up a bit. It does not restrict imports. Therefore some companies (including Sun Microsystems) have set up encryption subsidiaries abroad to develop encryption products. The Wassenaar agreement was signed in December '98 by 32 nations to agree to control exports, which presumably puts firms in different countries on a level playing field. Although the United States recognizes the importance of encryption to electronic commerce, the government (especially the FBI and the State Department) are also concerned about the ability of the government to read electronic communications; thus proposals for permitting exports of stronger encryption products only for specific approved purposes and/or only if key recovery systems are in place, so that the government can get the keys and read the communications if it has a reason to do so. The next step (already proposed by the FBI) is to limit the use of encryption within the United States. Although the claim is made that the horse is out of the barn, legislation forbidding the use of encryption without key recovery or requiring approval of purpose (e.g., to protect credit card numbers) would mean other users could be presumed to be undertaking illegal activity. The bills introduced in the U.S. Congress to allow export of strong encryption and guarantee the right of people in the United States to use encryption freely have not prevailed and generally didn't get out of committee. The Dutch have apparently objected to the Wassenaar Arrangement. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 13:19:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19797 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19774 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA25721; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:18:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990120141125.0671cac0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:18:00 -0700 To: Annelise Anderson , jonathan michaels From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List In-Reply-To: References: <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM 1/20/99 -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: >The United States restricts exports of "strong" encryption, although it >has been loosening up a bit. The encryption it restricts is anything with a key over 40 bits. This is not "strong." >It does not restrict imports. Therefore >some companies (including Sun Microsystems) have set up encryption >subsidiaries abroad to develop encryption products. And have run into hassles as a result. >The Wassenaar agreement That's "arrangement" >was signed in December '98 by 32 nations to >agree to control exports, which presumably puts firms in different >countries on a level playing field. It's not binding on those countries. They agreed in principle to SEEK export controls. Why they would ever want to have them in reality is unclear, to say the least. >Although the United States recognizes the importance of encryption to >electronic commerce, the government (especially the FBI and the State >Department) are also concerned about the ability of the government >to read You mean, "spy on"... >electronic communications; thus proposals for permitting >exports of stronger encryption products only for specific approved >purposes and/or only if key recovery systems are in place, so that >the government can get the keys and read the communications if it >has a reason to do so. Such as, say, idle curiosity. >The next step (already proposed by the FBI) is to limit the use of >encryption within the United States. And also to tap all of our phones. The EFF, in a monumental misstep for which they still should not be forgiven, allowed a bill that facilitates this to be passed. >Although the claim is made that the horse is out of the barn, >legislation forbidding the use of encryption without key recovery >or requiring approval of purpose (e.g., to protect credit card >numbers) would mean other users could be presumed to be undertaking >illegal activity. The bills introduced in the U.S. Congress to >allow export of strong encryption and guarantee the right of >people in the United States to use encryption freely have not >prevailed and generally didn't get out of committee. They've gotten out of SOME committees, but have been killed by legislators who are beholden to the FBI. (Perhaps the FBI knows about their exramarital affairs? ;-) >The Dutch have apparently objected to the Wassenaar Arrangement. So should Americans. It's unconstitutional, as are all export controls. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 14:05:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25099 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:05:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from math.berkeley.edu (math.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.183.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25092 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:05:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@math.berkeley.edu) Received: (from dan@localhost) by math.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02860; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:05:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:05:24 -0800 (PST) From: dan@math.berkeley.edu (Dan Strick) Message-Id: <199901202205.OAA02860@math.berkeley.edu> To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Subject: Re: East Bay and South Bay chapters of BAFUG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dan@math.berkeley.edu, sef@kithrup.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sorry to hear you dislike San Francisco so much. I think it is the greatest > place I have ever lived and I was born and raised in NYC. Low praise indeed! :-) > AFAIK we have _NOT_ wore out out welcome at Whistle. ;-) Last time this > came up in conversation I got the impression that Whistle wanted us to come > back. Perhaps the most important consideration would be transportation. People won't come if they can't. Easy/cheap parking is most important. If we can't have that, good public transportation might serve. Proximity to a Bart station might work. Dan Strick dan@math.berkeley.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 14:33:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27210 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27202 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA24672 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:32:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 3F3761574; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:23:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:23:01 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Message-ID: <19990120232301.A23753@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <4.1.19990119174108.04756380@mail.lariat.org> <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au>; from jonathan michaels on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:56:00PM +1100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4994 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to jonathan michaels: > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you explain > what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be bad, please The main thing is that export for commercial usage/products is restricted to the same level as in the USA (i.e. RC2/40, RC5/40 and so forth). DES may be at 56 bits (not sure here). What is really delicious is that free software is not restricted apparently. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 15:38:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03622 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03615 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA05555; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:37:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:37:21 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Brett Glass cc: jonathan michaels , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120141125.0671cac0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > You mean, "spy on"... Yes, exactly. They argue, of course, terrorism and drug trafficking as reasons for doing so (with a warrant). I don't disagree with you at all philosophically, and I certainly welcome your corrections and elaboration on the facts. I was trying to communicate the two sides of the issue. > And also to tap all of our phones. The EFF, in a monumental misstep > for which they still should not be forgiven, allowed a bill that > facilitates this to be passed. > They've gotten out of SOME committees, but have been killed > by legislators who are beholden to the FBI. (Perhaps the FBI > knows about their exramarital affairs? ;-) Or whatever. Perhaps the 900 FBI files that were found in the White House are useful in similar ways. We seem to be losing this battle with both the legislative and executive branches, and on both sides of the aisle. The corporations also tend to go along with regulation (key recovery and other regulation) to get permission to export. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 15:59:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05731 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:59:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05726 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08405; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:01:52 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990121110151.C7737@caamora.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:01:51 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <4.1.19990119174108.04756380@mail.lariat.org> <19990120225600.B6919@caamora.com.au> <19990120232301.A23753@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990120232301.A23753@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:23:01PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:23:01PM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to jonathan michaels: > > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you explain > > what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be bad, please > > The main thing is that export for commercial usage/products is restricted > to the same level as in the USA (i.e. RC2/40, RC5/40 and so forth). DES may > be at 56 bits (not sure here). > > What is really delicious is that free software is not restricted apparently. yes, this is teh bit i fond most interesting, all sorts of places are poping up and saying you cant do 'commercial' 'strong encryption', but you can give it away, as in freeware .. japan is teh most recent one, i;ve notices and only as part of teh ip6 thingies in the KAME project. interesting to see what happens next .. grin sortta regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 16:53:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13077 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13072 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (root@host-209-214-79-122.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.79.122]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26944; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA26259; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:09:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: Your message of "19 Jan 1999 11:17:44 +0100" <781m48$cqj$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <781m48$cqj$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990120200924J.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:09:24 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 22 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) > In article <199901190527.AAA09665@bellsouth.net>, > W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > Why do I get the feeling that Albert and Oben are > > really pseudonyms for Eric Raymond? > > Oh, come on. Eric Raymond may be a Linux zealot who for some reason is > struck with utter blindness wrt BSD, but he's no idiot. > Oh, come on. I was _joking_ A feeble attempt to get -chat lightened up a bit. I failed :-( BTW: ESR *acted* like an idiot when I met him. Perhaps you are correct though. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 20:26:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:26:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06039 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14509; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:25:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:25:27 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Unfurl cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-Reply-To: <19990119101529.C16732@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Unfurl wrote: > On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:41:51AM -0500, spork@super-g.com wrote: > > > > My only real surprise was some of the nicks in use. I mean, comeon, > > "DrZiplok"??? :) > > spork@super-g.com?? Need I say more? hah :) (jk) Yeah, I know. I am the all-purpose tool around here though ;) I just always pictured Mike Smith as driving along some Australian beachside in a nice sports car then going home to enjoy a fine glass of vino. The nick just didn't jibe. IRC is strange. Charles > > -Bill > > -- > unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! > #!/bin/perl -sp0777i $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1 > lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 21:33:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14058 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00708; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:33:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990120222358.04449480@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:25:06 -0700 To: Annelise Anderson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Cc: jonathan michaels , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990120141125.0671cac0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 PM 1/20/99 -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: >We seem to be losing this battle with both the legislative and >executive branches, and on both sides of the aisle. The >corporations also tend to go along with regulation (key >recovery and other regulation) to get permission to export. And then what they're exporting is, of course, weak junk. That's why India recently announced that it may ban the IMPORTATION of cryptography products from the US; due to export controls, they're too easily compromised. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 22:04:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18608 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles232.castles.com [208.214.165.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18600 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06317; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:01:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199901210601.WAA06317@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: spork cc: Unfurl , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:25:27 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:01:07 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Unfurl wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:41:51AM -0500, spork@super-g.com wrote: > > > > > > > My only real surprise was some of the nicks in use. I mean, comeon, > > > "DrZiplok"??? :) > > > > spork@super-g.com?? Need I say more? hah :) (jk) > > Yeah, I know. I am the all-purpose tool around here though ;) > > I just always pictured Mike Smith as driving along some Australian > beachside in a nice sports car then going home to enjoy a fine glass of > vino. The nick just didn't jibe. IRC is strange. Heh. I guess this is -chat, so I can build you a different picture: - In Australia, I did have a (relatively) nice sports car, and I did drive along the beach. But I didn't drink worth mentioning there. - But I live in Kalifornia now. And I don't have a sports car (although I am trying to fix that). And I drink nasty white wine out of a box these days, albeit still not very much. I'd also suggest an altavista search for "Spaced Invaders" if you want to understand where the nick came from. It's actually even more appropriate than you might think. 8) (Although if you are thinking of little ziploc baggies full of white powder, you are *definitely* on the wrong track.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 22:28:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21214 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:28:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21207 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.188]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3AE9; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:34 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:36:44 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Annelise Anderson Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , jonathan michaels , Eivind Eklund Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Jan-99 Annelise Anderson wrote: > The Dutch have apparently objected to the Wassenaar Arrangement. Sorry, as far as I know the Dutch government accepted it, our Ministry of Trade and Financial Business is responsible for this. So could you please explain to me who objected? I am one who has been advocating against the Wassenaar Arrangement for the Dutch people by supporting sites such as www.freecrypto.org. Eivind has been active on the Norwegian front. Danmark, as Eivind told me, were having a national vote about it (correct me if wrong Eivind). The Brits are adopting their MP's. The France have always criticised their country's policy. I think we could say that most of the European countries are agitated by this decision (from a IT/techie point of view, the governmental body doesn't even know what they were signing in the first place). --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 22:28:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21202 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:28:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.188]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3AF1; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:36 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990121110151.C7737@caamora.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:36:46 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: jonathan michaels Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:23:01PM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: >> According to jonathan michaels: >> > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you >> > explain what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be >> > bad, please >> >> The main thing is that export for commercial usage/products is >> restricted to the same level as in the USA (i.e. RC2/40, RC5/40 and so >> forth). DES may be at 56 bits (not sure here). >> >> What is really delicious is that free software is not restricted >> apparently. > > yes, this is teh bit i fond most interesting, all sorts of places are > poping up and saying you cant do 'commercial' 'strong encryption', but > you can give it away, as in freeware .. japan is teh most recent one, > i;ve notices and only as part of teh ip6 thingies in the KAME project. > > interesting to see what happens next .. grin sortta And this last sentence is exactly why I am bringing it up again and again, ad nauseum. Most European countries were having no restrictions whatsoever and now we all of a sudden have a legal document which may get implemented sooner or later, but nonetheless the fundaments for control lie there. And there should be no distinction between free and commercial software regarding this issue. Cryptography and thus privacy and security are constitutional rights and a prerequisite for the success of IPSec and other relevant protocols. The main thing that's wrong about the whole issue is the one about the first it was all free and now not anymore. How far is the step to add a next entry into that Arrangement that will control every product, be it free or commercial? Don't make the mistake of thinking it won't happen. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 20 23:22:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26861 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09193; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:23:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990121182340.B9126@caamora.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:23:40 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <19990121110151.C7737@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:36:46AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:36:46AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 21-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:23:01PM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > >> According to jonathan michaels: > >> > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you > >> > explain what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be > >> > bad, please > >> > >> The main thing is that export for commercial usage/products is > >> restricted to the same level as in the USA (i.e. RC2/40, RC5/40 and so > >> forth). DES may be at 56 bits (not sure here). > >> > >> What is really delicious is that free software is not restricted > >> apparently. > > > > yes, this is teh bit i fond most interesting, all sorts of places are > > poping up and saying you cant do 'commercial' 'strong encryption', but > > you can give it away, as in freeware .. japan is teh most recent one, > > i;ve notices and only as part of teh ip6 thingies in the KAME project. > > > > interesting to see what happens next .. grin sortta > > And this last sentence is exactly why I am bringing it up again and again, > ad nauseum. Most European countries were having no restrictions whatsoever > and now we all of a sudden have a legal document which may get implemented > sooner or later, but nonetheless the fundaments for control lie there. > > And there should be no distinction between free and commercial software > regarding this issue. Cryptography and thus privacy and security are > constitutional rights and a prerequisite for the success of IPSec and other > relevant protocols. > > The main thing that's wrong about the whole issue is the one about the > first it was all free and now not anymore. How far is the step to add a > next entry into that Arrangement that will control every product, be it > free or commercial? Don't make the mistake of thinking it won't happen. Jeroen, i reprinted you responce in the hope that people will read it again and think about it again and again. here in australia it is not an issue, yet. because nobody has gone to gaol like mr zimmerman (sorry fro misspell) looked like he was going to. i suppose its like that in teh other places in europe, not including behind teh old iron curtin. it just cant happen say all teh peoples and teh techies who think that tehy know the internet say its not possible. what those people don't know is just how possible it is .. if teh govt says no crypto and implements teh same punishment as for crimes of sedition the sentance 20 years hard labour and no parol, this is currnt austrlian minimum sentance, tehy also sieze everytings that even remotely lookslike it mihgt have been a computer at some point in it existance. people ezpexially americans hide behind thier so called democratic society and that piece of paper that quarentee noting the govt wont allow. as you said and as people living in teh real world (eastern europe and all millirty dictatirships) know how easy it is fro teh govt to do just what it wants to do. here in australia we are knee jerking our way to an ever more police state in responce to blown compeletely out of proportion by teh television and newspaper media (in an effort to make thier 30 seconds more watched that somebodyelses, to sell one more newspaper than thier oppositon) generated 'crimewave'. america has already criminalised at a very fundamental level people meeting on teh street .. most of canada's french dominated procinces have similar laws, to protcet from teh threat of english take over by riot and disorder campaigns. > Don't make the mistake of thinking it won't happen. it is happening slow quietly and whn it comes time for teh govt to push over teh edge, thier won't be that many left stading to say, 'stop you cannot do that'. why, simply because everybody was safe in thier beds thinking it won't happen, it can't happen, as it is happeing all around them in so many small and almost unmoticeable ways .. the wess* arrangement is one such mechanism technology is moving so fast that we are all looking at laws cast for our future with eyes and understandings or wisdom that is firmely planted in teh past . not a good thing to my way of thinking. please ecsue the passion of my repsonce, i dont care about so called personal freedom, what i care about is govt destroying people who ask, why are you doing that mr president, prime minister, king, queen, head of state, etc, etc, etc. regards (maybe regarde would be more apropriate ?) jonathan pd, excuse my spelling i have several neurological defecits that make writing, spelling and reading very hard for me. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 09:18:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29102 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from big-gw.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29088 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:18:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by big-gw.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09313; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:15:20 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <36A760A8.5CA3B2FC@tellique.de> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:15:20 +0100 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody know, why Unix Reviews now renamed to performancecomputing ? References: <369EB42E.1AC62075@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> <199901150339.RAA00873@kauai.pacificglobal.net> <19990115142326.C55525@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 14 January 1999 at 17:39:05 -1000, David Langford wrote: > >> Anybody know, why Unix Reviews now renamed to performancecomputing > >> ? > > > > It was eitehr that or name it "NT Review". > > Not quite the same thing, is it? Well, nowadays... Here in Germany there is a magazine with the title "iX". Its original subtitle was "Multiuser Mutitasking Magazin"(*), and it was understood to be mostly Unix-oriented. Some time after they had embraced NT (which caused lots of nasty letters), the subtitle was changed to "Professionelle Informationstechnik"(*), dropping the "Multiuser" completely. (*) Both expressions mean what they seem to. On the bright side, there is still lots of non-NT stuff in it, like even a quite interesting article about the IBM S/390 machines some time ago. Greetings, Juergen. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 10:20:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07882 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07798 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:20:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id NAA52341; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:17:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990121131752.A51852@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:17:52 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Mike Smith , spork Cc: Unfurl , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199901210601.WAA06317@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199901210601.WAA06317@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:01:07PM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:01:07PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > I'd also suggest an altavista search for "Spaced Invaders" if you want > to understand where the nick came from. It's actually even more > appropriate than you might think. 8) Better yet: http://us.imdb.com/M/title-exact?Spaced+Invaders+(1990) -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 10:34:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:34:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from big-gw.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08648 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by big-gw.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09514; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:10:21 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <36A76D8D.ED5C3492@tellique.de> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:10:21 +0100 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Bill Gates really thinks References: <35151.916645487@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA09490 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > In any case, I read the original and the english translation As I understood the accompanying text on the web page, the interview text on this page *is* the original: > This is the raw interview transcript (from which the magazine article > was transcribed in German) kindly provided by the interviewer, Dr. > Jürgen Scriba. I find it also highly plausible that an interview with Bill Gates is done in English in the first place. If you follow the link on the page to the RISKS archive (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/17.44.html#subj11), you find the RISKS submission by Klaus Brunnstein, from which the text was taken. He states that this is indeed the raw interview transcription provided by the interviewer -- "before translation and adaptation," although the "German (not this English) version was authorized." Dr. Klaus Brunnstein is professor at the University in Hamburg, Germany, and is well-known and highly respected for his activities in computer security and risks. While you may question the credibility of the magazine FOCUS (I have no problem with that!), I take his word that this text is original. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 11:01:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12795 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22586; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:01:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022532; Thu Jan 21 12:01:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22124; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:00:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901211900.MAA22124@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:00:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jon@caamora.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Jan 20, 99 03:37:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Three points to add to this little chat... (1) The US is not bound by any treaties until they are ratified by congress; many treaties are signed, but never ratified (e.g. "the moon treaty" outlawing deployment of orbital nuclear weapons, weapons platforms, and EMP devices). (2) No one willing to blow up the world trade center would ever risk the penalties for exporting cryptography; neither would foreign powers hostile to US interests (yeah, right). (3) Technically, use of evidence obtained via wiretapping may be a violation of the 5th ammendment to the US constitution, which acknowledges the right to avoid self incrimination. In combination with the Miranda ruling, this means that any surreptiously obtained evidence can not be used for criminal prosecution. Test cases which would determine the legality of wiretapping evidence at the apellate level have a habit of being dropped before they can become binding case law. On the other hand, privacy is not explicitly guaranteed, only the ability to be secure in your person and property without due process (color me a constitutional constructionist, but Hoover and Ness tended to overstep a lot of bounds as a means to an end). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 13:56:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03590 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03583 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10515; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:59:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990122085901.A10462@caamora.com.au> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:59:01 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199901211900.MAA22124@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901211900.MAA22124@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:00:58PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:00:58PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Three points to add to this little chat... chomp..ok, i have a slow link, so i;m coonservative of what i send .. i disagree with most of what you have said > Hoover and Ness tended to overstep a lot of bounds as a means > to an end). > becaue this last little segment is how the real world works, and the ssoner people realise that thier textbook 'liberties' mean noting to government in persuit od re-election purely for teh purpose of getting thier snouts back into the trought that is teh public purse. the sooner the public realise this about politicions and govt the sooner we can start on teh road to real govt. remember what the greeks siad about thier love child, democracy, this is a good experiment, one day we will have to try it out without people. this whole issue is nt about 'civil liberties' or some toher grandiose notional sentimintality .. its about control of teh snouts to trough ratio. colour me cynical, rather colour me a realist. regards jonathan, in rant mode .. sorry. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 21 14:39:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07906 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA43582; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:38:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: Mike Smith , spork , Unfurl , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD IRC channels and ??quality?? References: <199901210601.WAA06317@dingo.cdrom.com> <19990121131752.A51852@tidalwave.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Jan 1999 23:38:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: Lee Cremeans's message of "Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:17:52 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lee Cremeans writes: > On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:01:07PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > I'd also suggest an altavista search for "Spaced Invaders" if you want > > to understand where the nick came from. It's actually even more > > appropriate than you might think. 8) > > Better yet: > > http://us.imdb.com/M/title-exact?Spaced+Invaders+(1990) Best thing about it is, us.imdb.com is a FreeBSD box :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 22 07:17:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27446 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27440 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA46239; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:16:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Spring in NYC From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jan 1999 16:16:42 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys, A friend and I are planning to spend a week in New York City in late February / early March. However, we were a little daunted by the cost of living in NYC. What I've heard so far is that anything below $115 might have adverse consequences on our continued health and sanity. Does anybody on this list know of a safe and relatively inexpensive place to stay for a week in New York? It should be within a reasonable distance (by foot or by public transportation) of the Barnes & Noble store on Astor Place (don't ask me why) and the usual touristy places. Reasonable proximity to 112th and Broadway is a plus. Oh, and if any of you live in or near NYC and would like to gang up and go out with us while we're in town, please contact me :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 22 07:47:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01356 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12239; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:49:52 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990123024950.A12207@caamora.com.au> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:49:50 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spring in NYC Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 04:16:42PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 04:16:42PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Hi guys, > > A friend and I are planning to spend a week in New York City in late > February / early March. However, we were a little daunted by the cost teh park is noce then and teh ducks are out then too .. also the country is noce too .. plan if yo can a stay overnite at a local freebsd hackers house to get to see a sunrise .. i always like them. > of living in NYC. What I've heard so far is that anything below $115 > might have adverse consequences on our continued health and sanity. > > Does anybody on this list know of a safe and relatively inexpensive sorry not any more .. > place to stay for a week in New York? It should be within a reasonable > distance (by foot or by public transportation) of the Barnes & Noble > store on Astor Place (don't ask me why) and the usual touristy places. > Reasonable proximity to 112th and Broadway is a plus. don't forget to vist the park, and to feed the pidgeons (if they are bad as they used to be cyanide laced wheat kibble is recommended) oh and have a horse ride and open carriage ride .. early eaving is best. this should round out your stay, nicely. please note its been 20 years since my information was current .. but as much as things change in ny they stay teh same. > Oh, and if any of you live in or near NYC and would like to gang up > and go out with us while we're in town, please contact me :) if youever make it to sydeny .. i know where yo an get cheap accomodation 10 minutes from teh international terminal and almost in teh heart of teh coke vs nike 4 year games sporting extravaganza .. er, olympics regards jonathan, time for one of those inside jokes. ps, no ps .. grin. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 22 11:12:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26385 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:12:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26379 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:12:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA21289; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:11:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990122120917.0621b9f0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:10:59 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Spring in NYC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about staying on Long Island or in New Jersey? Public transport into the city is excellent, and hotels will be much more reasonable. If you rent a car, you should DEFINITELY fly into an airport in another state, as New York rental rates are several times as high. (They have mandatory no-fault insurance.) --Brett Glass At 04:16 PM 1/22/99 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Hi guys, > >A friend and I are planning to spend a week in New York City in late >February / early March. However, we were a little daunted by the cost >of living in NYC. What I've heard so far is that anything below $115 >might have adverse consequences on our continued health and sanity. > >Does anybody on this list know of a safe and relatively inexpensive >place to stay for a week in New York? It should be within a reasonable >distance (by foot or by public transportation) of the Barnes & Noble >store on Astor Place (don't ask me why) and the usual touristy places. >Reasonable proximity to 112th and Broadway is a plus. > >Oh, and if any of you live in or near NYC and would like to gang up >and go out with us while we're in town, please contact me :) > >DES >-- >Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 23 09:48:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27202 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27196 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:48:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rainking@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (rainking@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA29542 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:48:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:48:08 -0600 (CST) From: Owen Barnett To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sound under FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm having a heck of a time configuring my sound card to function, and I really have been able to find much at all in the way of online docs. Does anyone know a good source? Or could any BE a good source? I have a PR440FX mb w/ onboard sound. Soundblaster compatible. I've tried using Luigi's drivers and they seem to detect the hardware, but either it doesn't actually function after that or I'm am missing a step... Thanks Owen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 23 15:18:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00876 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00870 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA4619 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:20:49 +0500 Message-ID: <36AA58E6.CDEF1549@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:19:02 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Small C tutorial Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found a small postscript-LaTeX document expalining how to program in C on UNIX environments, check out: ftp://svr-ftp.eng.cam.ac.uk/pub/misc/love_C.ps.Z There's also something about X11R5: those of us that don't program in C have been left without excuses ;-). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 23 19:14:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28414 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28398 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:14:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA13432 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 04:14:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9AA371574; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:26:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:26:39 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sound under FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990124022639.A54612@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Owen Barnett on Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 11:48:08AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4994 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Owen Barnett: > I have a PR440FX mb w/ onboard sound. Soundblaster compatible. I've > tried using Luigi's drivers and they seem to detect the hardware, but > either it doesn't actually function after that or I'm am missing a step... I have the same motherboard (twin PPro, Adaptec, Interexpress 100B and audio) and it is working with this: device pcm0 at isa? port ? tty irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x13 vector pcmintr dmesg: pcm0 at 0x530 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0xa613 on isa mss_attach 0 at 0x530 irq 5 dma 1:3 flags 0xa613 sndstat: FreeBSD Audio Driver (981002) Dec 26 1998 01:21:16 Installed devices: pcm0: at 0x530 irq 5 dma 1:3 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message