From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 8:50:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4492F14A1A for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id RAA29189 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:50:12 +0100 (CET) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA51571; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:39:19 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from j) Message-ID: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:39:19 +0100 From: J Wunsch To: FreeBSD chat list Subject: Who's stolen the daemon's tail? Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 11:20:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E93414EAE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 1382 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Nov 1999 18:24:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:24:32 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail? Message-ID: <19991128192432.B738@paert.tse-online.de> References: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote: > Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts > (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail? ... yes. :((( I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about the motivation ... -Andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 12: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F1714C88 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09400; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:03:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991128130240.04824d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:03:18 -0700 To: Andreas Braukmann , FreeBSD chat list From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail? In-Reply-To: <19991128192432.B738@paert.tse-online.de> References: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:24 PM 11/28/1999 +0100, Andreas Braukmann wrote: >Hi, > >On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote: > > Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts > > (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail? >... yes. :((( >I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about >the motivation ... So that we can play "Pin the tail on the daemon?" (Sorry, couldn't resist.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 12:47:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC37A1529A for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA74870; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:47:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <3842E689.E83737E6@nisser.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:48:09 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Andreas Braukmann , FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail? References: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> <4.2.0.58.19991128130240.04824d00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > >On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote: > > > Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts > > > (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail? > >... yes. :((( > >I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about > >the motivation ... > > So that we can play "Pin the tail on the daemon?" I checked and the traditional layout doth have the traditional tail! Motivation? Clearly to stimulate sales of the traditional layout Roelof -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Het Slakke Huis van de TGV op http://SlakkeHuis.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ Beveiligingsverwijzingen http://nisser.com/links.htm Chello lijn monitor http://nisser.com/~roelof/logs_chello.shtml ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:12:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D3B15174 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:12:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-106.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.106]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA20641; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:11:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38431641.F4E9379F@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:11:45 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Video Stupidity References: <000001bf30b5$b82c5470$021d85d1@youwant.to> <199911170254.TAA05982@usr08.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19991120204027.0452b630@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Incidentally, Sony is now trying to introduce a proprietary flash > memory format. Why another format? Partially so they can own it, > but primarily because it has COPY PROTECTION. (Yes, that's right; > each Memory Stick incorporates SCMS.) Now that Sony itself has a > large content empire (which it began to bulk up shortly after it > realized that content lost it the VHS vs. Beta battle), it wants > to prevent its content from being copied -- at all costs. Likewise, > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? Again, > this is an attempt to protect content from copying. Funny how > everything is interconnected. The portable cassette recorders that meet this definition are sold under the name "Pressman", as in The Press or mass media as a whole. You're more likely to see them in a B&H catalog than Wal-Mart. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:15:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C85815428; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17715; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:13:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAXSaGHI; Mon Nov 29 17:13:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA16936; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:14:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911300014.RAA16936@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:14:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991123182433.04426710@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 23, 99 06:26:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >These connotations actually derive from the writs of mandamus > >issued to captains of what were, essentially, pirate ships (but > >because of the writs, "they're _our_ pirates"). This practice > >began in 1861, if memory serves me correctly. > > Don't you mean a "Letter of Marque" rather than a "Writ > of mandamus?" Yes, dammit. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:23:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AD114E53 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24009; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:22:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAixa4YU; Mon Nov 29 17:22:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17235; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:23:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911300023.RAA17235@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:23:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Nov 24, 99 06:24:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Very interesting... > > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > >such as by allowing the creation of design patterns using UML as > > What does UML stand for? Unified Modelling Language, brought to you by Grady Booch, James Rumbaugh, Ivar Jacobson, et. al.. It allows you to model and combine design patterns in order to be able to apply common soloutions to software engineering problems. > >weeds. Purify could not perform nearly as well on Windows systems > >because of this (and would have problems on Linux, due to NULL > > Does Purify only run on unix/solaris? It runs on protected mode OSs that can be set to not map page zero, and in which each process has a private address space that is not non-explicitly shared with other processes. So it's mostly UNIX systems (SVR4 maps page zero by default following a fault reference to to; this is a tunable, and can be disabled by building [relinking] a new kernel). > >Visual C++ and Visual Basic, as well as most Java IDE tools, are > >not what I would call CASE tools, since they do not assist software > >engineering, they only assist programming, which is something very > >different. > > Thus the proliferation of good-looking poorly engineered products, > especially for winodws. Right. Anyone can Mac-dink pixels until they look nice; there is no way to tell by looking at a UI whether you have a race car engine or a lawnmower engine under the hood. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 19:52:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 67D8115748 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 63045 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 03:52:00 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 03:52:00 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:51:29 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Your next desktop PC......... Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19991130035208.67D8115748@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think it's been discussed before, check out: http://digital.jchyun.com/product/linuxpc/im01_b.jpg The worrying thing is that it'll be enormously popular. Anyone with artistic flair willing to mock up a FreeBSD version? -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 23:53:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B23E2157DC for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:53:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from at950@usa.net) Received: (qmail 3734 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Nov 1999 07:53:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130075346.3733.qmail@nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.22 by nwcst277 for [202.57.102.6] via web-mailer(M3.4.0.33) on Tue Nov 30 07:53:46 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Nov 99 00:53:46 MST From: To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: DNS and the ISP black hole Cc: postmaster@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Bret, Sorry the ISP list Admin. has black-holed me and Fil.Net without even ONE warning for asking for a little pitty in the work I am doing teaching the Congressman that FreeBSD is a better operating system than WinNT. It is a tough job because M/S has a big Lobby trying to get the government to not license ISP's that don't have an official WinNT seal on their servers! This was about my first post and I asked for help with a sendmail problem from apache on our ISP's new server. Actually, a lot of people on the list gave me the information I needed to correct the problem. But the admin. felt that asking for a little pitty being pretty much alone in the Philippines against a large crowd of WinNT people was reason enough to send all my postings to his /dev/null! This Congressman is very impressed by the fact we are going against the "best thinking" (WinNT) and that our ISP is Providing a BETTER service using FreeBSD! He is the Chair of the House Committee on Telecomunication and is now drafting regulations effecting the Internet. I would think the FreeBSD ISP Admin. would WANT to Help get FreeBSD written into the Government's regulation, instead of cutting off someone - WITHOUT EVEN ONE WARNING - who runs the ONLY FreeBSD users group in the whole country. Anyway, to answer your questions... Your addresses are 216.150.57.8/29 aka: 216.150.57.8 255.255.255.248 This gives you the useable addresses of 216.150.57.9-14 You forgot the subnet value route address and subnet value. = Take a look at: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/rfc/rfc2317.txt I also changed your serial number to remove the "." in the format: YYYYMMDDNN where NN is the serial number for that days update (so don't make more than 100 changes on any one day! A bigger problem will be your ISP's delegation. I could not find any delegation for the 57.105.216.in-addr.arpa. zone at all. aLan $ORIGIN 8/26.57.105.216.in-addr.arpa. IN SOA dante.plover.org. bford.dante.plover.org. ( 1999113000 ; Serial 10800 ; Refresh after 3 hours 3600 ; Retry after 1 hour 604800 ; Expire after 1 week 3600 ) ; Minimum TTL of 1 hour NS dante.plover. NS ns1.pbi.net. 9 IN PTR ad9.plover.org. 10 IN PTR heather.plover.org. 11 IN PTR thorin.plover.org. 12 IN PTR advent.plover.org. 13 IN PTR dante.plover.org. 14 IN PTR daman.plover.org. I hope this helps! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 4:37:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B431588C for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99081; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:37:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: fortune candidate From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Nov 1999 13:37:30 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [...] I remember being impressed with Ada because you could write an infinite loop without a faked up condition. The idea being that in Ada the typical infinite loop would be normally be terminated by detonation. -- Larry Wall DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 5:19:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D9F158A1 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA22649; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:19:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:19:49 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fortune candidate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30 Nov 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [...] I remember being impressed with Ada because you could write > an infinite loop without a faked up condition. The idea being that > in Ada the typical infinite loop would be normally be terminated by > detonation. > > -- Larry Wall while (!EndOfWorld){ blow_up(); } ? David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 20: 3:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F17F14F25 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA233B for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:04:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3844A0A3.EDBAE36C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:14:27 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: OpenBSD's armored fish Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.openbsd.org/ First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-). What will come next ?? cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 0: 0: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007EB14C80 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA99281 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199912010800.AAA99281@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 0: 5: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AE414C80 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA21223 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199912010805.AAA21223@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: BAFUG Announcements To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first and fifteenth of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks ******************* *** JOBS NOTICE *** ******************* San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. ********************** *** COUNTER NOTICE *** ********************** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. ********************* *** RETAIL NOTICE *** ********************* Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.4 1999/11/28 18:27:39 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 10: 1:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2641506F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:01:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: (from will@localhost) by blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00530; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:00:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3844A0A3.EDBAE36C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 13:00:12 -0500 (EST) From: will andrews To: giffunip@asme.org Subject: RE: OpenBSD's armored fish Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Dec-99 Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > http://www.openbsd.org/ > > First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and > I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-). It's not just a FISH, it's a _BLOWFISH_! I like it. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 11:18:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA5CB14C3F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 6480 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 19:17:59 -0000 Received: from userbj52.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.143.215) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 19:17:59 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA01896; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:17:52 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:17:52 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Craig Harding Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your next desktop PC......... Message-ID: <19991201191752.E316@marder-1> References: <19991130035208.67D8115748@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991130035208.67D8115748@hub.freebsd.org> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 04:51:29PM +1200, Craig Harding wrote: > I don't think it's been discussed before, check out: > > http://digital.jchyun.com/product/linuxpc/im01_b.jpg > Looks like a high-tech Teletubby > The worrying thing is that it'll be enormously popular. Anyone with > artistic flair willing to mock up a FreeBSD version? > > -- C. > > > -- > Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I > Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" > http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 11:58:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A1B150B7 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AE234C6; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:57:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: giffunip@asme.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: OpenBSD's armored fish In-Reply-To: <3844A0A3.EDBAE36C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And they now have the 'script kittie' as well... Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and > I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-). > > What will come next ?? > > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 12: 5:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBF21504F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:05:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22701 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:32:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:32:24 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s? I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment, right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to spend almost 1k for this upgrade. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 13:42: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (24-25-220-29.san.rr.com [24.25.220.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC4614F94 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:42:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gateway.gorean.org (gateway.gorean.org [10.0.0.1]) by 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA52760; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:40:06 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@24-25-220-29.san.rr.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s? > > I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment, > right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to > spend almost 1k for this upgrade. We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty accurate). Here are my make.conf settings: CFLAGS= -O -pipe NOPROFILE= true COPTFLAGS= -O -pipe USA_RESIDENT= YES TOP_TABLE_SIZE= 32503 Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin* HTH, Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 15:41: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF490151E7 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:40:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14924; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:10:22 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:10:22 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings: Well I think you're doing something wrong.. I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes.. Takes about 10 minutes for installworld.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 17:24: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67F414D90 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:24:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA11719; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:22:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:22:59 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Doug Barton , chat@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can > > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty > > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings: > > Well I think you're doing something wrong.. > > I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks > and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes.. Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down. In answer to the original question, I don't think that going to dual 600MHz processors is worth the money. If the money is buring a hole in your pocket, sure, but otherwise, nope. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 18: 4: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (24-25-220-29.san.rr.com [24.25.220.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534F414D79 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:03:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gateway.gorean.org (gateway.gorean.org [10.0.0.1]) by 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA55020; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:01:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:00:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@24-25-220-29.san.rr.com To: David Scheidt Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > > > On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > > > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can > > > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty > > > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings: > > > > Well I think you're doing something wrong.. > > > > I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks > > and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes.. Well, I would lay money that my crappy IDE drives are crappier than yours. :) Now that my project is "official" as opposed to "experimental" I'm working on getting some better ones. > Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES > in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down. Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all crashed, while the same exact sources compiled without -j just fine. (More to come with that on freebsd-stable when then -j 2 test is done). I didn't pay too much attention at the time, but IIRC the no -j make world completed in just under 50 minutes. I didn't pay too much attention 'cuz I thought -j would work and be much faster. Thanks, Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 18:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30BCC150A2 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:19:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA93205; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:17:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:17:09 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: will andrews Cc: giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD's armored fish Message-ID: <19991201211709.E92449@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <3844A0A3.EDBAE36C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * will andrews menulis: > On 01-Dec-99 Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > http://www.openbsd.org/ > > > > First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and > > I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-). > > It's not just a FISH, it's a _BLOWFISH_! I like it. :-) A blowfish armed with a nuclear warhead, that is. So I guess this means that their servers not only prevent hackers from breaking in, they do preemptive strikes against them as well :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Java is the COBOL of the 90s. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 19:42:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relax.dreamfire.net (relax.dreamfire.net [207.113.154.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BBB150DC for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:42:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sean@dreamfire.net) Received: from dreamfire.net (indigo.dreamfire.net [192.168.10.8]) by relax.dreamfire.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7C276 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:41:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3845EA83.7624F21B@dreamfire.net> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:41:55 -0800 From: Sean-Paul Rees Organization: The Dreamfire Solutions Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES > in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down. I did a buildworld (just straight make buildworld- no funny options in make.conf) on a uniprocessor PII 300, 192MB RAM, and UltraWide SCSI disks, and it finished in 1 hour 18 minutes 32.69 seconds (~78.5min). This is in full multiuser in regular operation, although its really not under any load. I'm considering adding another this left over 300 here, just gotta buy a VRM. Cheers, Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 23: 1:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012B71511E for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07607; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Doug Barton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Doug Barton wrote: > On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s? > > > > I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment, > > right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to > > spend almost 1k for this upgrade. > > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings: > > CFLAGS= -O -pipe > NOPROFILE= true > COPTFLAGS= -O -pipe > USA_RESIDENT= YES > TOP_TABLE_SIZE= 32503 > > Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's > with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I > can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin* How are your filesystems mounted/what kind of disks? Personally I've found that a higher -j can work even better, something like 8 or even 12 works pretty good. (depends if I want to play mp3s while building or not :) ) If you're not using softupdates or your FS's are mounted normally how well do you fare with 'async'? With a clean slate (without NOCLEAN)? thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:14:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E6914ED9 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:14:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23328; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:12:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:12:45 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Doug Barton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Message-ID: <19991202151244.Y22444@futuresouth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 11:29:41PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Alfred Perlstein remarked > On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's > > with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I > > can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin* > > How are your filesystems mounted/what kind of disks? > > Personally I've found that a higher -j can work even better, something > like 8 or even 12 works pretty good. (depends if I want to play mp3s > while building or not :) ) As a data point, I just started a buildworld when I left work last night. This is a dual PPro 200/512k, 256 meg RAM, /usr/src and /usr/obj on seperate 7200 RPM UW SCSI drives on an aic7880 controller. After the build: /dev/da3s1e on /usr/obj (ufs, asynchronous, NFS exported, local, noatime, nosuid, writes: sync 82 async 44465) /dev/da4s1e on /usr/src (ufs, asynchronous, NFS exported, local, noatime, nosuid, writes: sync 6 async 44600) mortis:/usr/src root% time nice +20 make -j6 buildworld .... 7111.969u 2208.024s 1:38:44.38 157.3% 1386+1422k 32924+4824io 5880pf+0w Could probably push it a bit faster with a higher -j (8 or 10), but I didn't. X was running at the time, along with Netscape, ~30 xterms, and a few other sundry thingymabobs. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:21:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D379150C5; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18276; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:17:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHhaGJJ; Thu Dec 2 14:17:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28482; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:18:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912022118.OAA28482@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: threads.... To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:18:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@hub.freebsd.org, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000401bf2e65$ffd3d2f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 13, 99 10:03:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I didn't see answers on this... > > > Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest > > > version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i > > > have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have > > > threads (kernel) soon. > > > > We already have threads. How exactly does licq (an ICQ client) rely on > > kernel-supported threads (only needed for some level of SMP scalability?) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > You're joking right? Or do you think that real-world server applications > don't mind if you freeze everything while the kernel services a page fault > or reads a file from a slow disk? The question is why the application is threaded; there are a number of reasons to thread an application: 1) In order to have seperate, similar (or identical) "tasks" operating in parallel. In other words, in order to obtain multiple program counters. NB: I believe this is th ICQ case 2) To achieve some level of concurrency on a UP system by interleaving rather than serializing I/O. NB: This can be accomplished using async I/O NB: This can be accomplished using non-blocking I/O, if the systems I/O subsystem is built to take the hint that it got and queue the read-ahead before returning the "EWOULDBLOCK" to user space 3) To achieve SMP scaling by giving the kernel scheduler discrete object to apply the quanta from more than one CPU, in order to get multiple CPUs into user space in a single process. If the kernel is servicing a trap, then the SMP lock on the scheduler is held, and no other calls, traps, or interrupts can enter the kernel until the current one has completed servicing. This is true of FreeBSD and Linux systems, and, if we discount interrupt processing in kernel threads, of BSDI, as well. NT has proven, rather well, that tying network card interrupts to particular CPUs, rather than running in a fully symmetric virtual wire mode, one can achieve much better locality of reference, and thus better performance. This is why Linux lost on the Netcraft and ZDLabs tests against NT on quad processor, quad ethernet Xeon systems, and why FreeBSD lost in the unpublished ZDLabs testing on FreeBSD on the same systems. Therefore, the only reason for kernel threads on FreeBSD, Linux, or BSDI at this time is SMP scalability. As a means of SMP scaling, this approach leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, since it does not address the CPU affinity, thread group affinity, or significantly increased context switch overhead issues. If you are not running SMP, then a user space call conversion scheduler utilizing async I/O or non-blocking I/O has much better thread group affinity, and much lower context switch overhead than a kernel threads implementation. Hope that answers your question; if it doesn't, please see the current discussion on -arch in the mailing list archives to see what a real low overhead, SMP scalable, threading system has to look like. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:26:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11FA014ED9; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21486; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:23:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnna4KP; Thu Dec 2 14:23:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28640; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:23:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912022123.OAA28640@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: threads.... To: dmp@aracnet.com (D.M.P.) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:23:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, kris@hub.freebsd.org, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <383084FF.606E228E@aracnet.com> from "D.M.P." at Nov 15, 99 02:11:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I am referring to the case in question: an ICQ client. ICQ is not a > > > high-performance server application, and does not require parallelism for > > > performance reasons. > > > > Agreed. > > I'm by no stretch of the imagination familiar with how threading > and process scheduling (is that the right phrase?) works beyond a > basic definition, so please do excuse any blatant displays of > ignorance. :) > > Do all threads within a program have the same PID (ps-wise), or would > they each have their own PID, or does it depend on how the program is > written? It depends on the implementation of the threading system. Threads are not guaranteed a unique PID; neither are they guaranteed a non-unique PID. They are only guaranteed a unique thread ID within a given multithreaded process. > What about in the case where you have multiple live chat and file > transfers going at once, where you have multiple seperate tasks, each > with their own TCP connection? Does threading them help prevent one > task from preempting another, or would that only be the case where > each thread is it's own process with a unique PID? This depends on your scheduling policy. See the pthreads man pages for details. As a general rule, however, all threads scheduling is supposed to assume that it may be preempted (that's why there are threads mutexes and semaphores: to control race conditions in case of preemption). One of the reasons that the Netscape browsers on the Macintosh and FreeBSD have serious problems is that they assume that the underlying implementation will allow a running thread to run to completion, so they can lock up (especially while running Java, especially while running the non-reentrant, threads unsafe, GIF decoder). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:27:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [12.9.219.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDDA14F3B for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from HARLIE.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [12.9.219.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00520; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:25:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: web browser alternatives to n-scape In-Reply-To: <19991202150941.07654@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to chat, as it isn't appropriate for questions at this point. On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > lynx is worse than Mosaic. Mosaic can't display frames. lynx can't > display images. Netscape crashes and leaks memory. Not displaying images is not always a disadvantage. Web pages come up much faster that way :-) And don't get me started on frames. http::/cybernut.com/death.html if you want my opinion. Of course, now that some html artists are assuming that everyone has a cablemodem or faster (I love showing people how their beautiful pages display on a 28.8 modem or on something smaller than a 17" monitor), I'm finding pages that aren't usable without displaying graphics. (The first thing they usually tell me every time I show them how slow it is over a 28.8 is, "once it's cached, it will refresh much faster", to which I point out that if a page takes over a minute to load, I'm going to leave and not come back, so reload time is irrelevant). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:28: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B83514F3B; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:28:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11tdjL-000CLN-00; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:25:35 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA95479; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:25:31 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:25:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , kris@hub.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: threads.... In-Reply-To: <199912022118.OAA28482@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So after reading all that, does that mean NT will always have that advantage over the free unixes? -jm ------------------ Bayliss: "And that's another thing... you never say 'please' and 'thank you.'" Pendleton: "Please stop being an idiot. Thank you." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:46:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DDF14F82 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:46:14 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: threads.... Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:46:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf3d0e$a7e8c6b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <199912022118.OAA28482@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You're joking right? Or do you think that real-world server > applications > > don't mind if you freeze everything while the kernel services a > page fault > > or reads a file from a slow disk? I'm not sure you read what I wrote, since you didn't respond to it. > The question is why the application is threaded; there are a > number of reasons to thread an application: > > 1) In order to have seperate, similar (or identical) "tasks" > operating in parallel. In other words, in order to obtain > multiple program counters. > > NB: I believe this is th ICQ case This is the trivial case for threads. This can clearly be done in user-space (and, IMO, should be). > 2) To achieve some level of concurrency on a UP system by > interleaving rather than serializing I/O. > > NB: This can be accomplished using async I/O > > NB: This can be accomplished using non-blocking I/O, > if the systems I/O subsystem is built to take > the hint that it got and queue the read-ahead > before returning the "EWOULDBLOCK" to user space Tell me, how do you handle a page fault asynchronously? Who does the kernel return the 'EWOULDBLOCK' to? > 3) To achieve SMP scaling by giving the kernel scheduler > discrete object to apply the quanta from more than one > CPU, in order to get multiple CPUs into user space in > a single process. Actually, this can be essential in the UP case as well. You may have a high-priority subtask that needs to be scheduled a certain way and a lower-priority subtask the needs to be scheduled somewhat different. It can be nearly impossible to do this in a user-space scheduler. > Therefore, the only reason for kernel threads on FreeBSD, Linux, > or BSDI at this time is SMP scalability. As a means of SMP > scaling, this approach leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, > since it does not address the CPU affinity, thread group affinity, > or significantly increased context switch overhead issues. Actually, it's also needed for portability. There's an awful lot of code out there written for kernel threads. It's a very non-trivial task to make that use asynchronous I/O just for FreeBSD. So until FreeBSD gets real kernel threads, that code will continue to run pitifully on it. Also, making all your I/O non-blocking (even in the cases where it appears through static analysis that it's very unlikely to block) is very expensive computationally. You have to be ready to 'hold your place' everywhere. If the block is likely, it's worth it. But if the block is extremely rare, the cost of placeholding (just in case you block) will be enormous. The only sane way to resolve it will be to do most of your I/O synchronously, and you'll be left vulnerable to ambush on a surprise block, say due to a failing local disk drive. > Hope that answers your question; if it doesn't, please see the > current discussion on -arch in the mailing list archives to see > what a real low overhead, SMP scalable, threading system has to > look like. In the interests of keeping the signal to noise ration on -arch as high as possible, I don't follow that newsgroup. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 14:50:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phreebsd.org (edslppp251.dnvr.uswest.net [216.160.165.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F60E14C5A; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geniusj@phreebsd.org) Received: from localhost (geniusj@localhost) by phreebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00495; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:48:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from geniusj@phreebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:48:07 -0700 (MST) From: Jason DiCioccio To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Vulnerability postings.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Am I the only one that is not annoyed by the guy who is posting 3rd-party programs as exploits for FreeBSD and making them sound like they come with FreeBSD? It's giving FreeBSD a pretty bad reputation having 5 in a row posted like that.. I say we send hitmen after him :-) -JD- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 15:26:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 5E94E15174; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C50E1CD42C; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jason DiCioccio Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Jason DiCioccio wrote: > Am I the only one that is not annoyed by the guy who is posting 3rd-party > programs as exploits for FreeBSD and making them sound like they come with > FreeBSD? They do come with FreeBSD :-) > It's giving FreeBSD a pretty bad reputation having 5 in a row > posted like that.. I say we send hitmen after him :-) In my response to the bugtraq post I corrected which ones were actually our fault and which not. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 15:59:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C9714C2B; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:59:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA85577; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:59:24 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jason DiCioccio , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings.. Message-ID: <19991202155924.A80952@wopr.caltech.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hub.freebsd.org on Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 03:26:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 03:26:17PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > In my response to the bugtraq post I corrected which ones were actually > our fault and which not. Just for the record, installing angband sgid was not a result of me smoking crack. It is written to be installed that way, aside from the fact that the author knows squat about security. (The source does not ship with an install target, so I did write the code to install sgid.) Grepping for "uid" in the source should make it clear that set[ug]id functionality is intended. As of today, the port installs non-sgid, but this requires two mode 1777 directories, breaks the high-score file, and probably lets players do bad things to each others' ability to play the game. Matt -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 18: 9:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 32BD014CF4; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169021CD744; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:09:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:09:24 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Jason DiCioccio , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings.. In-Reply-To: <19991202155924.A80952@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: > Just for the record, installing angband sgid was not a result of me > smoking crack. It is written to be installed that way, aside from the > fact that the author knows squat about security. (The source does not > ship with an install target, so I did write the code to install sgid.) > > Grepping for "uid" in the source should make it clear that set[ug]id > functionality is intended. I suspected as much, but couldn't find anything to prove it when I checked the source briefly. > As of today, the port installs non-sgid, but this requires two mode > 1777 directories, breaks the high-score file, and probably lets > players do bad things to each others' ability to play the game. Hmm. This isn't exactly a great solution either, but it's probably all you can do - I suppose it's better than the previous situation, which would give attackers all of the above plus more. I doubt there's much else we could do short of fixing the source (maybe print a warning about the above at install-time?). Thanks for jumping on this so fast.. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 18:25:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1130214FC8; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA16321; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:25:13 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jason DiCioccio , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings.. Message-ID: <19991202182512.A15563@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <19991202155924.A80952@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hub.freebsd.org on Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 06:09:24PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 06:09:24PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > could do short of fixing the source (maybe print a warning about the above > at install-time?). Thanks for jumping on this so fast.. The known problems with the solution are displayed at install time. I'm not in a position to do a security audit for the code, and I bet it really sucks. The linker warns about it using tmpnam(3), which is probably bad, too. Thank you, too, for taking action on this and your explanation of the problem. Matt -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 20:11:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from logisticsoftware.co.nz (logisticsoftware.co.nz [202.37.163.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1622E14BD0 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:11:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz) Received: from jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz [10.1.3.1]) by logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06167 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:10:03 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23927 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:10:03 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:10:03 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One quick poll that's been done in a few places lately is what to call the decade of 2001-2009; ie we've got the Eighties, the Nineties, etc. TIME's website poll had a few suggestions, but they missed out a favourite of mine which was suggested on a London-based poll: The Noughties. I wonder what they called it during 1900-1909..? -- Jonathan Chen --------------------------------------------------------------------- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 6:45:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEABC15176 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11ttxf-0000qZ-00; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:45:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA99568 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:45:27 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:45:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: kernel threads Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't want to start another war here, but i have a question. I have a _basic_ understanding of userland threads vs kernel threads, as well as semaphores, mutexes, and locking. I understand that there are a lot of issues to be settled if FreeBSD ever decides to implement kernel threads. What i haven't seen (or what i may have missed) is: when are they scheduled to be included in the system? Are they tentative for 4.0? Or sometime beyond? Do us regular users need to worry about massive instability problems with such a radically different approach to multi-tasking? I know FreeBSD is concerned with stability, and tests thoroughly, but obviously bugs will slip through, and this is a major change in architecture, if i understand correctly. -jm ------------------ Bayliss: "And that's another thing... you never say 'please' and 'thank you.'" Pendleton: "Please stop being an idiot. Thank you." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 10:17:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9C515240 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23989; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:17:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:16:58 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Jonathan Chen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 05:10:03PM +1300, a little birdie told me that Jonathan Chen remarked > One quick poll that's been done in a few places lately is what to call > the decade of 2001-2009; ie we've got the Eighties, the Nineties, etc. ITYM 2001-2010. I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start mowing people down with a MAC10. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 10:35:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (spirit.jaded.net [216.94.113.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789E814F4F for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:35:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02621; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:37:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:37:17 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com>; from fullermd@futuresouth.com on Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 12:16:58PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | ITYM 2001-2010. | | I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket | at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome | the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start | mowing people down with a MAC10. How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD? ... or even better, PikachuBSD! -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Cure for global warming: One giant heatsink and dual fans!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 11:41:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 320E414A14 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 20597 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 19:39:48 -0000 Received: from userat33.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.137.136) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 19:39:48 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA00613; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:39:34 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:39:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Dan Moschuk Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991203193934.B480@marder-1> References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 01:37:17PM -0500, Dan Moschuk wrote: > > | ITYM 2001-2010. > | > | I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket > | at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome > | the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start > | mowing people down with a MAC10. > > How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD? > Looks like you're the first person Matthew's going to come after with that MAC10 :) > ... or even better, PikachuBSD! > -- > Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) > "Cure for global warming: One giant heatsink and dual fans!" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 11:46:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F7D14A14; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00441; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:46:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:46:32 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dan Moschuk Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991203134632.K22444@futuresouth.com> References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 01:37:17PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Dan Moschuk remarked > > | ITYM 2001-2010. > | > | I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket > | at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome > | the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start > | mowing people down with a MAC10. > > How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD? *budda budda* AAAIGH!!!! "Choke on your blood for the 394 days remaining, buddy..." -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 13:26: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF6014D25 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:25:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [216.127.220.130]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:24:46 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:15:22 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket >at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome >the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start >mowing people down with a MAC10. Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 14:11:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [207.20.242.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7293714CB9 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 51183 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Dec 1999 22:09:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:09:34 -0800 From: Jason Evans To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: kernel threads Message-ID: <19991203140934.I44892@sturm.canonware.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 02:45:27PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 02:45:27PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I understand that there are a lot of issues to be settled if FreeBSD ever > decides to implement kernel threads. What i haven't seen (or what i may > have missed) is: when are they scheduled to be included in the system? > Are they tentative for 4.0? Or sometime beyond? Do us regular users need > to worry about massive instability problems with such a radically > different approach to multi-tasking? I know FreeBSD is concerned with > stability, and tests thoroughly, but obviously bugs will slip through, and > this is a major change in architecture, if i understand correctly. As Jordan is so fond of pointing out, FreeBSD as a free software project is generally unable to realistically say, "such and such vaporware will be ready for release X". That's because most of the developers don't get paid for the work, and so are under no obligation to deliver at all, let alone by an arbitrary deadline. What can be said is that the current visions for the "ultimate" threading system will *not* be part of 4.0; there is simply too much to do for it to be ready in two weeks, no matter how hard anyone tries. The userland threads support is in pretty good shape, and work is being done to get the LinuxThreads port whipped into shape by the time 4.0 is released. Neither solution is ideal, but they will have to do until the new threading architecture and all the prerequisite SMP improvements are developed. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 14:22: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E7014A16 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA60171; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:20:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199912032220.PAA60171@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 3, 1999 03:15:22 pm" To: adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:20:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket > >at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome > >the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start > >mowing people down with a MAC10. > > Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks > about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did > not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. Don't you mean 2049? :) Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 18:30: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3AA14D2F for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA32666; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:33:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199912040233.VAA32666@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 3, 1999 03:15:22 pm" To: adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:33:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote, > At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket > >at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome > >the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start > >mowing people down with a MAC10. > > Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks > about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did > not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. I've heard some scary rumblings lately about a widespread Millenium Bug in computers around the world. Just think, a year after the Y2k bug, we'll have another problem to deal with! *duck* Anyhow, going against all of the traditions on -chat, I have something useful to add to this thread. The question as to what the first decade of the 21st century, 2001-2010, should be called and what the first decade of this century, 1901-1910, was called has been handled by the World's Smartest Human, Cecil Adams. He came to the following conclusion: The 1900's were called... drum roll please... Nothing. Kind of a let down, but Cecil says so. More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to, http://www.straightdope.com To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full URL of the article in question. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 18:58: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D35814BEB for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 11919 invoked from network); 4 Dec 1999 02:56:58 -0000 Received: from useram41.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.134.213) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 1999 02:56:58 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA00637; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:56:43 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:56:43 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: cjclark@home.com Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991204025643.B320@marder-1> References: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> <199912040233.VAA32666@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199912040233.VAA32666@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav wrote, > More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to, > > http://www.straightdope.com > > To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full > URL of the article in question. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/940930.html > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 19:22: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE6F14CB9 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32797; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:23:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199912040323.WAA32797@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <19991204025643.B320@marder-1> from Mark Ovens at "Dec 4, 1999 02:56:43 am" To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:23:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: cjclark@home.com, adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote, > On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > G. Adam Stanislav wrote, > > More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to, > > > > http://www.straightdope.com > > > > To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full > > URL of the article in question. > > http://www.straightdope.com/columns/940930.html That's not the one. I think this is a plot just to make me look it up. It worked, http://www.straightdope.com/columns/960920.html -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:21:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F55614BDB for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:21:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (r4.bfm.org [216.127.220.100]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:21:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991204010420.00967810@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:04:20 -0600 To: "Kenneth D. Merry" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912032220.PAA60171@panzer.kdm.org> References: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > >Don't you mean 2049? :) No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) Of course, I *could* have missed even something like that as I was in a very bad physical shape for a couple months in the mid of this year (turned out to be diabetes and is now under control). Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:26:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF04714BDB for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA62727; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:25:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199912040725.AAA62727@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991204010420.00967810@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 4, 1999 01:04:20 am" To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:25:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > > > >Don't you mean 2049? :) > > No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:39:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AC3151B4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08969; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:37:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:25:44 MST." <199912040725.AAA62727@panzer.kdm.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 23:37:09 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >G. Adam Stanislav wrote... >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the >> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. >> > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :) >> >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ. People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0', the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the start of the next millenium. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:44:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3969C151B4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA62858; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:42:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Dec 3, 1999 11:37:09 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:42:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote... > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > >> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > >> > > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :) > >> > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > > > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered > >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think > it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ. > People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0', > the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units > like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the > start of the next millenium. The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So the year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C. Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever reason they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:51:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41DF151B4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:51:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA62887; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:51:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199912040751.AAA62887@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Dec 3, 1999 11:37:09 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:51:42 -0700 (MST) Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote... > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > >> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > >> > > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :) > >> > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > > > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered > >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think > it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ. > People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0', > the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units > like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the > start of the next millenium. FWIW, here's a reasonable description of why the millennium starts in 2001: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 0:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D618D1517F for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n65-220.berlin.snafu.de ([194.42.65.220] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 11uAuT-00015Y-00; Sat, 04 Dec 1999 09:51:18 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id BB82D677; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:10:15 +0100 (CET) To: Brett Glass Cc: atrn@zeta.org.au, David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Video Stupidity References: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 04 Dec 1999 00:10:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:36:08 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I just found a reference to the ONLY portable cassette recorder > that Sony claims to make. It's at > > http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/portable/walkmanrtmstereos/walkmanrtmrecordingstereos/wm-d6c.shtml > > Would you pay $400 for a recorder? Some months ago I paid DEM 400 (~ 200 US$) for a portable Minidisk recorder -- by Sony. Of course, I know that ATRAC is not suited for umlimited digital copying due to accumulation of compression artifacts, but it's much closer to the Nagra than a recording Walkman. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 3:19: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ABCB314D3F for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 03:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 17727 invoked from network); 4 Dec 1999 11:18:59 -0000 Received: from userah10.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.132.195) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 1999 11:18:59 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA00452; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:18:42 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:18:41 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: dg@root.com, "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991204111841.B319@marder-1> References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:42:55AM -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > David Greenman wrote... > > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. > > >> >> Or, that I was the only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > > >> > > > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :) > > >> > > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > > > > > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were > > >numbered starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. > > > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I > > think it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the > > birthdate of Christ. People don't start out being one year old, so > > although there was no 'year 0', the time before the first full > > year would have been measured in smaller units like months and > > days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the start > > of the next millenium. > > The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So > the year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C. > > Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever > reason they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0. > Because counting from 1 is convention, its only "purists" like programmers, mathematicians etc who count from 0. When you are taught to count at school it's from 1 to 10, not 0 to 9. > Ken > -- > Kenneth Merry > ken@kdm.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 6: 7:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E4514F71 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19385; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 05:58:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38491FC6.B05E7EF0@aracnet.com> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:05:58 -0800 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered > >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think > it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ. > People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0', > the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units > like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the > start of the next millenium. Like the month number denotes which month we're currently progressing through, the year number denotes which year we're currently progressing through. Going on this logic, it won't be until Jan 1, 2001 that 2000 years will have passed and the new millenium begun. -- [dmp@aracnet.com] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 9:31: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA8514D3F for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:30:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24633; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:29:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:29:46 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: David Greenman Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Dec 3 David Greenman wrote: > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think > it is wrong. The US Naval Observatory and the Royal Observatory Greenwich don's share your view. :) From www.usno.navy.mil/millennium/whenis.html mil*len*ni*um \ \ n, pl -nia or -niums: a period of 1000 years The end of the second millennium and the beginning of the third will be reached on January 1, 2001. This date is based on the now globally recognized Gregorian calendar, the initial epoch of which was established by the sixth-century scholar Dionysius Exiguus, who was compiling a table of dates of Easter. Rather than starting with the year zero, years in this calendar begin with the date January 1, 1 Anno Domini (AD). Consequently, the next millennium does not begin until January 1, 2001 AD. From www.rog.nmm.ac.uk/leaflets/new_mill.html 3. When do the 3rd Millennium and the 21st Century start? A millennium is an interval of 1000 years and a century is an interval of 100 years. In the Gregorian Calendar, which we use, there is no year zero and the sequence of years near the start runs as follows; ..., 3BC, 2BC, 1BC, 1AD, 2AD, ... Because there is no year zero, the first year of the calendar ends at the end of the year named 1AD. By a similar argument 100 years will only have elapsed at the end of the year 100AD. Since 2000AD is the 2,000th year of the Christian calendar, two millenia will have elapsed at midnight on 31 December 2000. So the 3rd Millennium and the 21st Century will begin at the same moment, namely zero hours UTC (commonly known as GMT) on January 1st 2001. 3.1 The Origin of the Christian Era. Early in the 6th century AD, Dionysius Exiguus (Denys the Little), a monk and astronomer from Scythia now SW Russia, compiled a table of dates for Easter in terms of the Diocletion calendar. He decided to reset the system of counting years to honour the birth of Christ so that the year 248 Anno Diocletiani became the year 532 Anni Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, known as 532 AD for short. In his scheme he believed that Christ was born on the 25th of December of the year preceding the start of the year 1 AD. From our modern point of view, Dionysius Exiguus made two errors. Firstly and quite understandably, he left out the year zero, because the number zero had not yet been `discovered' in the West. His second error was in thinking that Christ was born at the end of the year 1BC. Modern research indicates that Christ was probably born in 6BC and certainly by 4BC when Herod died. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 10: 0: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EE914CD0 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45990; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:01:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199912041801.NAA45990@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <19991204111841.B319@marder-1> from Mark Ovens at "Dec 4, 1999 11:18:41 am" To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:01:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry), dg@root.com, adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote, > On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:42:55AM -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > > David Greenman wrote... > > > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > > > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > > > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. > > > >> >> Or, that I was the only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > > > >> > > > > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :) > > > >> > > > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > > > > > > > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were > > > >numbered starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. > > > > > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I > > > think it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the > > > birthdate of Christ. People don't start out being one year old, so > > > although there was no 'year 0', the time before the first full > > > year would have been measured in smaller units like months and > > > days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the start > > > of the next millenium. > > > > The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So > > the year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C. > > > > Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever > > reason they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0. > > > > Because counting from 1 is convention, its only "purists" like > programmers, mathematicians etc who count from 0. When you are taught > to count at school it's from 1 to 10, not 0 to 9. There are times when counting from 0 is the common usage. For example, people count hours of the day (on a 24 hour clock) from 00. For whatever reason, people who think the third millennium starts at the 1999-2000 rollover don't also believe that you should call the first hour after midnight on the 31st "1", and then party when the clock goes from 23rd to 24th hour (at 11 PM) which is how they are counting years. All of that aside, we all know deep down that this is all meaningless. It next year it will have been 2000 years since... since... well, it's 2000 years past a point that a monk came up with in a miscalculation about 1500 years ago. And what's so special about 2000? 2000 = 2^4 * 5^3. Oooh... shivers. In the end, the fact that the thousands place is rolling over on the Common Era year is as much of a reason to party as 2000 years passing since the beginning of the CE. Some people don't realize that they occur at two different times, but that just means they lose out on an extra excuse to get excited about nothing. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 10:30:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB66214C9C; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-81.ocis.net [209.52.173.213]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16282; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:28:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199912041828.KAA16282@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:29:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19991203193934.B480@marder-1> References: <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD? > > ... or even better, PikachuBSD! PikacuBSD: Server performance that will shock you! Sorry, couldn't resist. Freddie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 11:23:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.grobin.org (grobin.org [209.161.250.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468CF14E7C for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:22:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geoff@grobin.org) Received: by falcon.grobin.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B857514B; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.grobin.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2203F3; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:22:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:22:52 -0500 (EST) From: Geoffrey Robinson To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <199912040725.AAA62727@panzer.kdm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav wrote... > > At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > > >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the > > >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048. > > > > > >Don't you mean 2049? :) > > > > No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-) > > Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered > starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. Actually ((1 + 2000) / 1000) * 1024 = 2049.024 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Geoffrey Robinson - geoff@grobin.org | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fortune Quote Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4794F15026 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (rh23.bfm.org [216.127.220.216]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:32:13 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991205004932.0098e6c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 00:49:32 -0600 To: "Kenneth D. Merry" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912040725.AAA62727@panzer.kdm.org> References: <3.0.6.32.19991204010420.00967810@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:25 04-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049. So? I'm talking about a specific year (Y2K), not about centuries or millenia here. 2K = 2048. By your logic the expression "year 2000" would really be describing the year 2001. That's Space Odyssey. The year 2049 would be Y2K1, or perhaps Y2K[1], or even 1[Y2K]. Besides, if it were to refer to an overflow bug, an unsigned 10-bit year would overflow in 2048, not 2049. As a matter of fact, I would not be a bit surprised if some software did experience the Y2K bug in 2048 since some programs do pack a date into "sufficiently large" bit fields, and a 10-bit field was sufficiently large for many years (and will be for almost half a century). Come to think of it, I probably *would* be surprised, not about the bug, but about me still being around at the ripe old age of 94. :) Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11BC151AA for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (rh23.bfm.org [216.127.220.216]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:32:15 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991205010845.0098fcf0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 01:08:45 -0600 To: dg@root.com From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:37 03-12-1999 -0800, David Greenman wrote: > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think >it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ. The keyword is "supposedly". It has since been determined that he was not born at the "start of the calendar" so it is a moot point. There indeed was no year 0, as any book describing the Julian Date algorithm affirms. The 20th Century started on 01-01-1901. The 21st Century starts on 01-01-2001. That alone does not make the upcoming year 2000 any less special. Not because it starts a new millenium but because in the mid 20th Century people were looking forward to it as the time by when all our problems will be solved. When I was a school kid, my teachers often said that such and such thing was not possible yet, but it surely would be in the year 2000. The science fiction stories of the 1950's often took place in the year 2000. That is, until Space Odyssey which was placed in 2001. And that makes me very sad: In the 1960's the prospect of far space travel in 2001 seemed quite realistic. But for that to happen, it would take a lot of effort these days! That's sad. On the other hand, in the 1960's it also seemed realistic human race would not live to see 2000 because of an impending nuclear holocaust. That did not happen, and is not likely to happen anymore. And thank goodness for that! Still possible, mind you, but not likely. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97595151AF for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (rh23.bfm.org [216.127.220.216]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:32:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991205012058.0097b100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 01:20:58 -0600 To: "Kenneth D. Merry" , dg@root.com From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:42 04-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: >The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So the >year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C. > >Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever reason >they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0. I believe the reason was that the mathematical significance of 0 was not discovered yet. Back then, a year 0 would have been an absurdity. They did not even have a Roman numeral for 0. Zero was not a number, it was the lack of a number. It signified non-existence. In the minds of the people of that era a year 0 simply could not exist. Not just era, but place too. The situation could have been different in other parts of the world, for example in India they developed the concept of 0, and a digit for it, long before. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message