From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 12 3:24:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF6C14E32 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25648; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:24:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199912121124.MAA25648@zed.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Jay Nelson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-Reply-To: Message from Jay Nelson of "Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:25:09 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:24:14 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no > >restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to > >the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate > >SCSI bus would help performance. > > XFS sounds a lot like AIX's JFS. Which raises the question: What is > the connection between BSD's lfs, soft updates, SGI's XFS and AIX's > jfs? Don't they all do essentially the same thing except for where the > log is written? No. lfs is a logging filesystem. You only have a log that contains everything, including all your files. The downside to this is that you have to have a garbage collector that cleans deleted data from the log. The good thing is that you never have to seek for writes. All writes are to the end of the log. http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/projects/sprite/papers/ has some papers on lfs. A journaling filesystem is like a normal filesystem but you have a transaction log that turns synchronous writes into a synchronous write to the log and a asynchronous write to the normal filesystem. This avoids seeks when latency is important. Soft updates do not have a log att all. Take a look at http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/. Lfs will not roll in the normal sense, it will simply discard the half done write at the end of the log if there is one. Soft updates can't do rolling as there is no log. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 12 12:51:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6DC14C29 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03797; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:51:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991212135015.04774740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:50:57 -0700 To: David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: David Scheidt , Jay Nelson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912120047.SAA08385@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991211131141.046bc880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:47 PM 12/11/1999 , David Kelly wrote: >How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? I actually don't know, as the product was for DOS and Netware -- not UNIX. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 12 18:13:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD0814E4B for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-177.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.177]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA14104 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:12:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38545602.272E3E45@hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:12:18 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: /bin/sh programming guides - recommendation? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone recommend a good on-line programming guide for /bin/sh, or any books? I want to know if the ORA book is worth the money, but I would like to keep my cash if possible ;-). -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 12 19:32:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593FD14E32 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-98.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.98]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA31020; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:32:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA33187; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:32:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912130332.VAA33187@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jay Nelson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-reply-to: Message from Jay Nelson of "Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:13:32 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:32:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson writes: > Terry's posts did answer a number of questions. Specifically that lfs > and soft updates both could only roll a file system back to a known > good state -- instead of a journaled file system which is capable of > rolling forward to a known state. Neither lfs or soft updates > appear to have much to do with journaling. Still, I didn't find > anything that explained the decision to go with soft updates. Perhaps > I missed the relevant threads. Were they prior to '98? I believe the correct answer as to why today we have soft updates rather than lfs is simply the fact Dr. McKusick tackled soft updates and made it reliable and easy to apply before anybody got lfs to the same state. Can't find any mention if XFS for Linux has been released. May 1999 announcemnt that SGI intends to: http://www.sgi.com/developers/oss/sgi_resources/feature5.html More info on XFS: http://www.sgi.com/Technology/xfs-whitepaper.html -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 7:54: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D2114C86 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:53:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:50:51 -0500 Message-ID: <38551738.82786164@cstone.net> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:56:40 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /bin/sh programming guides - recommendation? References: <38545602.272E3E45@hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a good on-line programming guide for /bin/sh, or > any books? I want to know if the ORA book is worth the money, but I > would like to keep my cash if possible ;-). I think it is. Another good one is "UNIX Shell Programming" by Stephen G. Kochan and Patrick H. Wood, published by Hayden Books, ISBN 0-672-48448-X. I had another one around here that I liked, but I'll be damned if I can find it right now...:) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 HEY! Lay off the SeanMike! The man's a misunderstood visionary! - Kermit Labmonkey (aka Ryan Kimmet) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 9:24:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94B4E14CC0 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 23434 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 17:24:24 -0000 Received: from useram39.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.134.211) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 17:24:24 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA00578; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:24:06 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:24:06 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /bin/sh programming guides - recommendation? Message-ID: <19991213172406.A475@marder-1> References: <38545602.272E3E45@hiwaay.net> <38551738.82786164@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38551738.82786164@cstone.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 10:56:40AM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > Can anyone recommend a good on-line programming guide for /bin/sh, or > > any books? I want to know if the ORA book is worth the money, but I > > would like to keep my cash if possible ;-). > > I think it is. Another good one is "UNIX Shell Programming" by Stephen > G. Kochan and Patrick H. Wood, published by Hayden Books, ISBN > 0-672-48448-X. > > I had another one around here that I liked, but I'll be damned if I can > find it right now...:) > How about "The UNIX Programming Environment" by Brian W. Kernighan & Rob Pike, published by Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-937681-X > SeanMike > > -- > SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net > Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 > HEY! Lay off the SeanMike! The man's a misunderstood visionary! > - Kermit Labmonkey (aka Ryan Kimmet) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 9:55:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2542A154C0 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:52:28 -0500 Message-ID: <385533BA.81CF536B@cstone.net> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:58:18 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /bin/sh programming guides - recommendation? References: <38545602.272E3E45@hiwaay.net> <38551738.82786164@cstone.net> <19991213172406.A475@marder-1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > How about "The UNIX Programming Environment" by Brian W. Kernighan & > Rob Pike, published by Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-937681-X I think that's it! Is it a white cover with blue text on the front? SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 HEY! Lay off the SeanMike! The man's a misunderstood visionary! - Kermit Labmonkey (aka Ryan Kimmet) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 10: 5:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6E8150FB for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:05:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12346 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:05:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991213110244.009e5480@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:04:49 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Cartoon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that Linux is having killer IPOs which are causing fear and loathing among its supporters, this cartoon (which I didn't see mentioned on this list back in August) is even more relevant: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99aug/uf000907.gif To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 12: 9:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A200B14E5C for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 26211 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 20:09:25 -0000 Received: from userbo24.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.145.174) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 20:09:25 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA00761; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:09:10 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:09:10 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /bin/sh programming guides - recommendation? Message-ID: <19991213200910.A642@marder-1> References: <38545602.272E3E45@hiwaay.net> <38551738.82786164@cstone.net> <19991213172406.A475@marder-1> <385533BA.81CF536B@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <385533BA.81CF536B@cstone.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 12:58:18PM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > How about "The UNIX Programming Environment" by Brian W. Kernighan & > > Rob Pike, published by Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-937681-X > > I think that's it! Is it a white cover with blue text on the front? > Yes. > SeanMike > > -- > SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net > Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 > HEY! Lay off the SeanMike! The man's a misunderstood visionary! > - Kermit Labmonkey (aka Ryan Kimmet) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 15:56:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s1.virt.presys.com (s1.virt.presys.com [206.100.167.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 819A21515B for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tzahn@allaboutpeople.com) Received: (qmail 32183 invoked by uid 103); 13 Dec 1999 23:56:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO allaboutpeople.com) (207.48.110.21) by 206.100.167.47 with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 23:56:22 -0000 Message-ID: <3855868F.96672184@allaboutpeople.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:51:43 -0800 From: Tasha Zahn Organization: All About People X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Inquiry Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3A2218371EA3D6478B4A6167" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3A2218371EA3D6478B4A6167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Would it be appropriate to post a part time job opening for a FreeBSD expert at this chat? I am an Employment Specialist looking for someone to undertake a project in Eugene, OR. What we need is someone who is very proficient using FreeBSD to get a server up and running for an information services company in the area, then to go by about once a month to maintain it. I was unsure who to contact. Hope that I haven't violated any protocol. I appreciate any help that you might be able to give me. Happy Holidays! -Tasha A. Zahn --------------3A2218371EA3D6478B4A6167 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="tzahn.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Tasha Zahn Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="tzahn.vcf" begin:vcard n:Zahn;Tasha tel;fax:541.683.7863 tel;work:541.683.7862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.allaboutpeople.com org:All About People adr:;;1410 Oak Street, Suite 103;Eugene;OR;97401; version:2.1 email;internet:tzahn@allaboutpeople.com title:Employment Specialist fn:Tasha Zahn end:vcard --------------3A2218371EA3D6478B4A6167-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 16: 1:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700B4150DB for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18395; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:01:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyTaW2J; Mon Dec 13 17:01:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25603; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:01:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912140001.RAA25603@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:01:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Dec 10, 99 09:26:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > [snip] > > >Soft updates speak to the ability to stall dependent writes > >until they either _must_ be done, or until they no longer are > >relevent. It does this as a strategy for ordering the metadata > >updates (other methods are DOW - Delayed Ordered Writes - and > >synchronous writing of metadata... in decreasing order of > >performance). > > It's this ability to delay and gather writes that prompted the > question. If a SCSI bus can handle 8-12MB with tagged queuing and > UltraDMA can do 30MB while blocking, where do the performance lines > cross -- or do they? As the number of spindles go up, I would expect > SCSI to outperform IDE -- but on a single drive system, do writes to > an IDE at UDMA speeds block less than gathered writes to a drive on a > nominally slower SCSI bus? The question you have to ask is whether or not your I/O requests are going to be interleaved (and therefore concurrently outstanding) or not. You only need four outstanding concurrent requests for your 8M SCSI bus to beat a 30M UltraDMA. I'll note for the record here that your PCI bus is capable of 133M burst, and considerably less when doing continuous duty, so bus limits will hit before that (I rather suspect your 30M number, if it's real and not a "for instance", is a burst rate, not a continuous transfer rate, and depends either on pre-reading or a disk read cache hit). Effectively, what you are asking is "if I have a really fast network interface, can I set my TCP/IP windows size down to one frame per window, and get better performance than a not quite as fast interface using a large window?". The answer depends on your latency. If you have zero latency, then you don't need the ability to interleave I/O. If you non-zero latency, then interleaving I/O will help you move more data. For tagged command queues, the questions are: o are your seek times so fast that elevator sorting the requests (only possible if the drive knows about two or more requests) will not yield better performance? o is your transfer latency so low that interleaving your I/O will not yield better performance? o is all of your I/O so serialized, because you are only actively running a single application at a time, that you won't benefit from increased I/O concurrency? > [snip] > > >So the very short answer to the question is "on a multi-applicaiton > >server, using soft updates doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit > >from interleaving your I/O". > > Hmm... that suggests you also might not. On a single drive system > with soft updates, would an Ultra IDE perform worse, on par or better > than SCSI with a light to moderate IO load? Worse, if there is any significance to the I/O, so long as you have non-zero latency. Unfortunately, with drives which lie about their true geometry, and which claim to be "perfect" by automatically redirecting bad sectors, it's not possible to elevator sort in the OS (this used to be common, and variable/unknown drive geometry is why this tuning is currently turned off by default in newfs). > >To speak to Brett's issue of RAID 5, parity is striped across > >all disks, and doing parity updates on one stripe on one disk > >will block all non-interleaved I/O to all other areas of the > >disk; likewise, doing a data write will prevent a parity write > >from completing for the other four disks in the array. > > I have seen reletavely few benefits of RAID 5. Performance sucks > relative to mirroring across separate controllers and until you reach > 10-12 drives, the cost is about the same. I never thought about the > parity, though. Now that I have, I like RAID 5 even less. If your I/O wasn't being serialized by your drives/controller, the parity would be much less of a performance issue. > >This effectively means that, unless you can interleave I/O > >requests, as tagged command queues do, you are much worse off. > > Applying that to the single drive IDE vs. SCSI question suggests that, > even with higher bus burst speeds, I'm still lkely to end up worse > off, depending on load, than I would with SCSI -- soft updates > not withstanding. Is that correct? Yes, depending on load. For a single user desktop connected to a human, generally you only run one application at a time, and so serialized I/O is OK, even if you are doing streaming media to or from the disk. The master/slave bottleneck and multimedia are the reason that modern systems with IDE tend to have two controllers, with one used for the main disk, and the other used for the CDROM/DVD. > >As to the issue of spindle sync, which Brett alluded to, I > >don't think that it is supported for IDE, so you will be > >eating a full rotational latency on average, instead of one > >half a rotational latency, on average: (0 + 1)/2 vs. (1 + 1)/2. > > I think that just answered my earlier question. This is a RAID-specific issue. Most modern drives in a one drive system record sectors in descending order on a track. As soon as the seek completes, it begins caching data, and returns the data you asked for as soon as it has cached back far enough. For single application sequential read behaviour, this pre-caches the data that you are likely to ask for next. A different issue that probably applies to what you meant is for a multiple program machine with two or more readers, the value of the cache is greatly reduced, unless the drive supports multiple track caches, one per reader, in order to preserve locality of reference for each reader. This one is not RAID specific, but is load specific. In general, good SCSI drives will support a track cache per tagged command queue. It would be interesting to test algorithms for increasing I/O locality to keep the number of files on which I/O is outstanding under the number of track caches (probably by delaying I/O for files that were not in the last track cache count minus one I/Os in favor of I/O requests that are). > >Rod Grimes did some experimentation with CCD and spindle sync > >on SCSI devices back when CCD first became capable of mirroring, > >and has some nice hard data that you should ask him for (or dig > >it out of DejaNews on the FreeBSD news group). > > Thanks -- I'll look them up. And -- I appreciate your answer. I > learned quite a bit from it. It did raise the question of differences > between soft updates and lfs -- but I'll save that for another time. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 16:40:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60759151C6 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:40:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20960; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:40:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgGaWQO; Mon Dec 13 17:40:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27620; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:40:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912140040.RAA27620@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:39:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991210230453.046806e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Dec 10, 99 11:06:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Under light to moderate IO loads, the disk interface isn't likely to be the > >overall limiting factor on the machine. You certainly save some money by > >going with IDE. On a low-end box, perhaps as much as 15 or 20% of the total > >cost of the machine. Once you move away from the bottom end, or you want > >more than a couple disks, SCSI looks much better. > > Why wouldn't IDE retain an advantage -- so long as you put the disks on > separate controllers to avoid having one block another? (I like > SCSI too, but given the realities -- or unrealities -- of hard drive > pricing I'm always looking to milk more performance out of IDE drives > when I can.) I will let you in on a "secret": SCSI drives cost more because that's what the market will bear, based on their performance characteristics relative to IDE. They cost the same to manufacture; it doesn't matter what mask you use to burn your 1 square inch ASIC. FWIW: IBM has demonstrated IDE hardware with tagged command queues, but is not manufacturing it (so far as I have been able to tell). The only other remaining thorn in IDE is the need to add more controllers after you have two disks installed; SCSI has it rather well beat there. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 16:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6E0151C4 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16623; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:40:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991213173712.04754ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:40:28 -0700 To: Tasha Zahn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <3855868F.96672184@allaboutpeople.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We live in Wyoming, but will be flying into Portland next week. We could arrange to help the folks in Eugene if they'd be willing to cover the expense of changing our tickets and renting a car to go back and forth. As for once-a-month maintenance: FreeBSD rarely needs to be maintained that often, and it probably isn't necessary to show up physically. Any work that needs to be done could easily be done across the Net. --Brett Glass At 04:51 PM 12/13/1999 , Tasha Zahn wrote: >Hello, > >Would it be appropriate to post a part time job opening for a FreeBSD >expert at this chat? I am an Employment Specialist looking for someone >to undertake a project in Eugene, OR. What we need is someone who is >very proficient using FreeBSD to get a server up and running for an >information services company in the area, then to go by about once a >month to maintain it. I was unsure who to contact. Hope that I haven't >violated any protocol. I appreciate any help that you might be able to >give me. > >Happy Holidays! >-Tasha A. Zahn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 16:50:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDF1151D4 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01139; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:49:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAOka4Tb; Mon Dec 13 17:49:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27931; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:49:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912140049.RAA27931@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:49:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912120047.SAA08385@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "David Kelly" at Dec 11, 99 06:47:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I sometimes long for the days of ESDI, where the host could control > > EVERYTHING about the way the drive was read and written. (I did > > some experiments which involved positioning the head on a blank track > > when a write was expected, then writing the data to the very next > > sector that came along while simultaneously updating an intention FIFO > > for the metadata on a different spindle. The metadata itself was updated > > later, so the intention log kept things from getting out of sync > > due to power loss. You could pull the plug on that machine when the > > disks were grinding away and never lose a thing.) > > How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no > restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to > the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate > SCSI bus would help performance. You can look at the logging code, and find out. SGI has put the logging code up for download as the first installment on XFS. The short answer is that XFS doesn't require a seperate spindle, and unless you turned off write caching most modern drives tend to lie about stuff having been committed to stable storage, and tend to do The Wrong Thing after a power failure, which is they fail to write the data they have in cache before they are done spinning down. A cache that crosses a seek boundary (e.g. for bad sector sparing) is particularly at risk. > XFS for Linux was to be released by now. I haven't been paying > attention. Was it? Right now, it is vapor-ware. They have still not cleaned out the USL code enough to be able to release it. I have heard rumors that they attempted to clean room it, but can't find "virgins" to write the new code that are also capable of doing the job. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 17: 2:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4C51510C for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:02:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.221]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMP008KOHK2N7@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:02:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00394; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:38:50 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:38:50 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-reply-to: <199912121124.MAA25648@zed.ludd.luth.se> To: Mattias Pantzare Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the reply and the references. Your answer _should_ be a FAQ. It would save the repeat questions. -- Jay On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Mattias Pantzare wrote: >> >How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no >> >restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to >> >the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate >> >SCSI bus would help performance. >> >> XFS sounds a lot like AIX's JFS. Which raises the question: What is >> the connection between BSD's lfs, soft updates, SGI's XFS and AIX's >> jfs? Don't they all do essentially the same thing except for where the >> log is written? > >No. lfs is a logging filesystem. You only have a log that contains everything, >including all your files. The downside to this is that you have to have a >garbage collector that cleans deleted data from the log. The good thing is >that you never have to seek for writes. All writes are to the end of the log. >http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/projects/sprite/papers/ has some papers on lfs. > >A journaling filesystem is like a normal filesystem but you have a transaction >log that turns synchronous writes into a synchronous write to the log and a >asynchronous write to the normal filesystem. This avoids seeks when latency is >important. > >Soft updates do not have a log att all. Take a look at > http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/. > > >Lfs will not roll in the normal sense, it will simply discard the half done >write at the end of the log if there is one. > >Soft updates can't do rolling as there is no log. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 17: 2:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CDF152CE for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.221]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMP008KOHK2N7@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:02:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00402; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:43:16 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:43:16 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-reply-to: <199912140001.RAA25603@usr08.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This answers the questions. Thanks, Terry. I've left the whole message intact for the benefit of others searching the archives. -- Jay On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> >Soft updates speak to the ability to stall dependent writes >> >until they either _must_ be done, or until they no longer are >> >relevent. It does this as a strategy for ordering the metadata >> >updates (other methods are DOW - Delayed Ordered Writes - and >> >synchronous writing of metadata... in decreasing order of >> >performance). >> >> It's this ability to delay and gather writes that prompted the >> question. If a SCSI bus can handle 8-12MB with tagged queuing and >> UltraDMA can do 30MB while blocking, where do the performance lines >> cross -- or do they? As the number of spindles go up, I would expect >> SCSI to outperform IDE -- but on a single drive system, do writes to >> an IDE at UDMA speeds block less than gathered writes to a drive on a >> nominally slower SCSI bus? > >The question you have to ask is whether or not your I/O requests >are going to be interleaved (and therefore concurrently outstanding) >or not. > >You only need four outstanding concurrent requests for your 8M >SCSI bus to beat a 30M UltraDMA. I'll note for the record here >that your PCI bus is capable of 133M burst, and considerably >less when doing continuous duty, so bus limits will hit before >that (I rather suspect your 30M number, if it's real and not a >"for instance", is a burst rate, not a continuous transfer rate, >and depends either on pre-reading or a disk read cache hit). > > >Effectively, what you are asking is "if I have a really fast >network interface, can I set my TCP/IP windows size down to >one frame per window, and get better performance than a not >quite as fast interface using a large window?". > >The answer depends on your latency. If you have zero latency, >then you don't need the ability to interleave I/O. If you >non-zero latency, then interleaving I/O will help you move >more data. > >For tagged command queues, the questions are: > >o are your seek times so fast that elevator sorting the > requests (only possible if the drive knows about two > or more requests) will not yield better performance? > >o is your transfer latency so low that interleaving > your I/O will not yield better performance? > >o is all of your I/O so serialized, because you are only > actively running a single application at a time, that > you won't benefit from increased I/O concurrency? > > > >> [snip] >> >> >So the very short answer to the question is "on a multi-applicaiton >> >server, using soft updates doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit >> >from interleaving your I/O". >> >> Hmm... that suggests you also might not. On a single drive system >> with soft updates, would an Ultra IDE perform worse, on par or better >> than SCSI with a light to moderate IO load? > >Worse, if there is any significance to the I/O, so long as >you have non-zero latency. > >Unfortunately, with drives which lie about their true geometry, >and which claim to be "perfect" by automatically redirecting >bad sectors, it's not possible to elevator sort in the OS (this >used to be common, and variable/unknown drive geometry is why >this tuning is currently turned off by default in newfs). > > >> >To speak to Brett's issue of RAID 5, parity is striped across >> >all disks, and doing parity updates on one stripe on one disk >> >will block all non-interleaved I/O to all other areas of the >> >disk; likewise, doing a data write will prevent a parity write >> >from completing for the other four disks in the array. >> >> I have seen reletavely few benefits of RAID 5. Performance sucks >> relative to mirroring across separate controllers and until you reach >> 10-12 drives, the cost is about the same. I never thought about the >> parity, though. Now that I have, I like RAID 5 even less. > >If your I/O wasn't being serialized by your drives/controller, >the parity would be much less of a performance issue. > > >> >This effectively means that, unless you can interleave I/O >> >requests, as tagged command queues do, you are much worse off. >> >> Applying that to the single drive IDE vs. SCSI question suggests that, >> even with higher bus burst speeds, I'm still lkely to end up worse >> off, depending on load, than I would with SCSI -- soft updates >> not withstanding. Is that correct? > >Yes, depending on load. > >For a single user desktop connected to a human, generally you >only run one application at a time, and so serialized I/O is >OK, even if you are doing streaming media to or from the disk. > >The master/slave bottleneck and multimedia are the reason >that modern systems with IDE tend to have two controllers, >with one used for the main disk, and the other used for the >CDROM/DVD. > > >> >As to the issue of spindle sync, which Brett alluded to, I >> >don't think that it is supported for IDE, so you will be >> >eating a full rotational latency on average, instead of one >> >half a rotational latency, on average: (0 + 1)/2 vs. (1 + 1)/2. >> >> I think that just answered my earlier question. > >This is a RAID-specific issue. Most modern drives in a one >drive system record sectors in descending order on a track. As >soon as the seek completes, it begins caching data, and returns >the data you asked for as soon as it has cached back far enough. >For single application sequential read behaviour, this pre-caches >the data that you are likely to ask for next. > >A different issue that probably applies to what you meant is >for a multiple program machine with two or more readers, the >value of the cache is greatly reduced, unless the drive supports >multiple track caches, one per reader, in order to preserve >locality of reference for each reader. This one is not RAID >specific, but is load specific. > >In general, good SCSI drives will support a track cache per >tagged command queue. > >It would be interesting to test algorithms for increasing I/O >locality to keep the number of files on which I/O is outstanding >under the number of track caches (probably by delaying I/O for >files that were not in the last track cache count minus one I/Os >in favor of I/O requests that are). > > >> >Rod Grimes did some experimentation with CCD and spindle sync >> >on SCSI devices back when CCD first became capable of mirroring, >> >and has some nice hard data that you should ask him for (or dig >> >it out of DejaNews on the FreeBSD news group). >> >> Thanks -- I'll look them up. And -- I appreciate your answer. I >> learned quite a bit from it. It did raise the question of differences >> between soft updates and lfs -- but I'll save that for another time. > >8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 17: 5:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56411152E1; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06960; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:04:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGFaOin; Mon Dec 13 18:04:35 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28673; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:04:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912140104.SAA28673@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:04:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@hub.freebsd.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Dec 11, 99 11:13:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Also -- and this is just curiosity, why did we go with soft updates > >> instead of finishing lfs? Aside from the fact that soft updates > >> appears cleaner than lfs, is there any outstanding superiority of one > >> over the other? > > > >These are FAQs - instead of wasting peoples cycles in explaining it again > > I'm sure you're right, but I couldn't find the answer in the FAQ I > supped this morning. Is there a different FAQ? They are FAQs, not "in the FAQ". The archives you should be looking at, and the place you should be asking the question are the freebsd-fs list. Soft Updates was implemented because Whistle paid Kirk to do the work, as well as throwing in some of Julians time and my time in the bargain. The reason for doing the work was to get rid of the UPS circuitry and heavy battery in the next generation Whistle InterJet product. LFS wasn't finished because the implementation is incomplete (but only minorly so), and because it was not kept up to date with VM and other system interface changes (IMO: you change the interface, you're responsible for fixing all the code that uses it). The minor missing piece was a "cleaner" daemon to follow behind and reclaim logs that are no longer referenced by inodes. It's pretty trivial to write one of these. Frankly, logging solves different problems than soft updates, and the technology is orthogonal. Soft Updates solves the metadata ordering problem, without requiring synchronous writes. The LFS solves the fast recovery following a crash problem; it does this at the cost of a latency between when disk space is no longer being used, and when it becomes available for reuse, as well as adding in a certain level of fragmentation (the cleaner also needs to be a defragger, for a small definition of defragger). Soft Updates is capable of being generalized to allow dependencies to span file system layers, including externalizing a generalized transactioning interface to user space (Very Useful). Logging is a raw disk management mechanism. > Still, I didn't find > anything that explained the decision to go with soft updates. Perhaps > I missed the relevant threads. Were they prior to '98? Soft Updates came in because someone paid for its developement; there is a bit of difference between the Ganger/Patt implementation, and the one in FreeBSD, but not a huge amount. It leverages greatly on work Kirk had already done for BSDI and OpenBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 19:12:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AF315207 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00262; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:12:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:12:25 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Tasha Zahn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <3855868F.96672184@allaboutpeople.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Tasha Zahn wrote: > Would it be appropriate to post a part time job opening for a FreeBSD > expert at this chat? I am an Employment Specialist looking for > someone to undertake a project in Eugene, OR. What we need is someone > who is very proficient using FreeBSD to get a server up and running > for an information services company in the area, then to go by about > once a month to maintain it. I was unsure who to contact. Hope that > I haven't violated any protocol. I appreciate any help that you might > be able to give me. 1) jobs@freebsd.org would be another good list to bother. 2) You should have asked 6 months ago, I used to live in Eugene before trekking to the Bay Area. :) Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 19:35:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD6F154CB for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18075; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:33:45 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912140040.RAA27620@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991210230453.046806e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:39 PM 12/13/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: >I will let you in on a "secret": SCSI drives cost more because >that's what the market will bear, based on their performance >characteristics relative to IDE. Unfortunately, I don't believe that the price/performance ratio of UltraSCSI is anywhere near that of Ultra-66 ATAPI. >They cost the same to manufacture; it doesn't matter what mask >you use to burn your 1 square inch ASIC. Which is the problem. You're being charged a premium for hardware that's very similar, due to lower volume. And SCSI has higher command latency than IDE. SCSI drives usually make up for this with tagged command queueing, hidden elevator seeking, and larger on-drive caches. Sometimes this is a clear win, but sometimes it is not. The ideal thing would be a hybrid: a drive which supported the full SCSI command repertoire but didn't have the overhead of selection, arbitration, bus settling time, signal deskewing, etc. I would do this by making the one drive per ATAPI cable act like a SCSI device that was always selected, eliminating the bus selection phase altogether. The interface would be cheaper, because straight TTL is much less expensive than the terminators and transceivers needed for SCSI. It'd be more energy-efficient, too. And it'd have a higher peak transfer rate, because SCSI is limited by having to handle the more varied transmission line characteristics that come from an 8-foot or 16-foot cable with multiple irregularly spaced taps. The "SCATAPI" drives would use a 1 meter cable -- ALWAYS 1 meter, even if you could get away with less. Fold it up neatly if it's too long. No taps, 28 AWG conductors, controlled impedance, and twists in the signal lines all the way. Peak speed ought to reach 132 MBps easily. This just happens to be the capacity of 32-bit PCI. A later generation could move up to AGP speeds and run off the motherboard chipset's AGP circuitry. CAM would work with no modification. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 19:46:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78571553A for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.40.223]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMP00BNDP3XTS@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:45:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00889; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:37:16 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:37:16 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-reply-to: <199912140104.SAA28673@usr08.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >They are FAQs, not "in the FAQ". I suspect they probably should be in the FAQ. The average admin who doesn't follow mailing lists asks questions like this. The more we claim (justifiably) stability, the more seriously they evaluate FreeBSD against commercial alternatives. This is an area where few of us really understand the issues involved. >The archives you should be looking at, and the place you should be >asking the question are the freebsd-fs list. I did look in the fs archives -- although I'm not sure the general question belongs there since it seems to have more to do with the differences between FreeBSD and the commercal offerings. Is it fair to summarize the differences as: Soft updates provide little in terms of recovering data, but enhances performance during runtime. Recovery being limited to ignoring metadata that wasn't written to disk. Log file systems offers little data recovery in return for faster system recovery after an unorderly halt at the cost of a runtime penalty. Journaled filesystem offer the potential of data recovery at a boot time and runtime cost. I know this is disgustingly over simplified, but about all you can get through to typical management. I also have to admit, I'm a little confused with your usage of the word orthogonal. Do you mean that an orthogonal technology projects cleanly or uniformly into different dimensions of system space? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 20:12:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D189915190 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA34355; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:12:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:12:40 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > The "SCATAPI" drives would use a 1 meter cable -- ALWAYS 1 meter, > even if you could get away with less. Fold it up neatly > if it's too long. No taps, 28 AWG conductors, controlled impedance, > and twists in the signal lines all the way. Peak speed ought to > reach 132 MBps easily. This just happens to be the capacity of > 32-bit PCI. A later generation could move up to AGP speeds and > run off the motherboard chipset's AGP circuitry. CAM would work > with no modification. There are those of us who have machines that need long cables. One of the boxes I manage has disks that are 15 meters away from the CPU cabinet. If you need to have hundreds of disks, you can't have silly cable lengths. Of course, the next generation box will be all Fibre Channel, but still. Even on my home box, I have a need for greater than 1 metre bus lengths. david To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 20:45:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (post.webmailer.de [192.67.198.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7546A14CA7 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Inferno@nightfire.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27518 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:45:04 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.19991214051944.00c08e80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: Inferno@nightfire.de@post.strato.de (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:25:15 +0100 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> The "SCATAPI" drives would use a 1 meter cable -- ALWAYS 1 meter, >> even if you could get away with less. Fold it up neatly >> if it's too long. No taps, 28 AWG conductors, controlled impedance,=20 >> and twists in the signal lines all the way. Peak speed ought to=20 >> reach 132 MBps easily. This just happens to be the capacity of=20 >> 32-bit PCI. A later generation could move up to AGP speeds and=20 >> run off the motherboard chipset's AGP circuitry. CAM would work=20 >> with no modification. Hi! should be shielded cables, or do I miss something about keeping signals= clean? AGP IMHO is some el cheapo implementation of some simple electrical prolonging of a simple interface for fast vid transfer, like the VESA local bus design in past days. > >There are those of us who have machines that need long cables. One of the >boxes I manage has disks that are 15 meters away from the CPU cabinet. If >you need to have hundreds of disks, you can't have silly cable lengths. Of >course, the next generation box will be all Fibre Channel, but still. Even >on my home box, I have a need for greater than 1 metre bus lengths. =20 Yes, but if someone really needs, say 20 disks/CD-ROMs attached some meters away from your box, wouldn't it make sense and be cheaper to put them in a dedicated file server /server box and attach them via a fast network? BTW: How do they the 15 meters? Regards Olaf Hoyer ------ Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU) Death be my master, my soul and saviour... (The book of inferno, chapter II) "There is no justice, there is just me", said the Reaper (Terry Pratchett) Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20 da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20 auch in dich hinein. (Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 21:21:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E3A15525 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18986; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:21:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991213220839.00c869e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:20:49 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:12 PM 12/13/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >There are those of us who have machines that need long cables. One of the >boxes I manage has disks that are 15 meters away from the CPU cabinet. There will always be some of these, but they'll be statistically rare. >If >you need to have hundreds of disks, you can't have silly cable lengths. SCSI can really only have 7 disks per cable. (Yes, I know, you can extend the addressing to get 15, or use logical units, but this causes problems with bus loading and also with contention for the bus.) Also, I'm sure you will agree that hundreds of spindles on one computer is not the norm. We shouldn't bog down our core standards because of one case that's several sigma off the low end of the probability scale. >Of >course, the next generation box will be all Fibre Channel, but still. Even >on my home box, I have a need for greater than 1 metre bus lengths. No problem! Use the shorter cables within the disk array and then use SCSI or Fiber Channel -- on the other side of the RAID controller -- for the longer-haul connections. Also, putting that much disk space on a single machine may not be a good idea. If it has that much data to serve up or search, it's probably going to be strapped for CPU cycles or network bandwidth. Depending on the situation, you might be better off distributing your files or databases and putting several disks (but not hundreds) on each server. This makes the system more failsafe, too: one bad CPU won't take down the whole operation. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 13 21:34:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC43152D3 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19082; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:34:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991213222107.00c7fc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:33:42 -0700 To: Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991214051944.00c08e80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> References: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:25 PM 12/13/1999 , Olaf Hoyer wrote: >Hi! > >should be shielded cables, or do I miss something about keeping signals clean? Twisted pairs don't provide the same shielding as coax, but they resist noise surprisingly well. (It's a standard exercise in advanced E&M physics classes to show this.) And twists don't lower the impedance as much as a shield, nor do they require baluns. If you buy a long differential SCSI ribbon cable, you'll find that the pairs are twisted within the ribbon. (The twists stop at the places where the connectors are crimped on, then resume.) >AGP IMHO is some el cheapo implementation of some simple electrical >prolonging of a simple interface for fast vid transfer, like the VESA local >bus design in past days. It is, indeed, a somewhat quick and dirty interface. But it's a good one. It does very fast DMA without involving the CPU, which means good concurrency. In some ways, it's even better suited for hard disks than it is for graphics! >Yes, but if someone really needs, say 20 disks/CD-ROMs attached some meters >away from your box, wouldn't it make sense and be cheaper to put them in a >dedicated file server /server box and attach them via a fast network? That's what I'd do. Inside the box, you could use regular IDE for CD-ROMs or fast interfaces for hard disks. ATAPI is cheap; additional interfaces would probably cost about $5 each. Just a few more chips and connectors on a PC board. Outside the box, you'd use FireWire, SCSI, fast Ethernet, or gigabit Ethernet. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 5: 4:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20A415284 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 902957555; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754C51D89; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991213220839.00c869e0@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: :Also, putting that much disk space on a single machine may not be a good idea. :If it has that much data to serve up or search, it's probably going to be :strapped for CPU cycles or network bandwidth. Depending on the situation, :you might be better off distributing your files or databases and putting several :disks (but not hundreds) on each server. This makes the system more failsafe, :too: one bad CPU won't take down the whole operation. Can I point out that the PC isn't the only platform on the planet? When I was at NASA 16 processor (or more) Origin2000's and Sun Enterprise servers with anywhere from 200GB to 1TB+ drive arrays on them were quite common. Eventually PC's won't be single processor toys. Hell, you can build dual CPU boxes now for less than a 286 cost 10 years ago. Any spec you come up with better be scalable, and not ignore multi cpu configurations. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, how Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 6:21:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE84614A06 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA67503; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:19:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:19:17 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991214051944.00c08e80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > >There are those of us who have machines that need long cables. One of the > >boxes I manage has disks that are 15 meters away from the CPU cabinet. If > >you need to have hundreds of disks, you can't have silly cable lengths. Of > >course, the next generation box will be all Fibre Channel, but still. Even > >on my home box, I have a need for greater than 1 metre bus lengths. > > Yes, but if someone really needs, say 20 disks/CD-ROMs attached some meters > away from your box, wouldn't it make sense and be cheaper to put them in a > dedicated file server /server box and attach them via a fast network? I am waiting to meet a network that can do 400MB/S -- the agregate throughput of 20 Fast/Wide/Differential SCSI controllers. > > BTW: How do they the 15 meters? High voltage differential FW SCSI. The spec allows fro a cable length of 25 metres. With good cables, controllers, disks, enclosures, and terminators, you can do 30, though I wouldn't for a production box. David scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 10:54:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275F314A2F for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19455; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:53:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAVua4SL; Tue Dec 14 11:53:26 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19833; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:53:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912141853.LAA19833@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:53:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Dec 13, 99 08:33:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I will let you in on a "secret": SCSI drives cost more because > >that's what the market will bear, based on their performance > >characteristics relative to IDE. > > Unfortunately, I don't believe that the price/performance > ratio of UltraSCSI is anywhere near that of Ultra-66 ATAPI. Who said anything about that? The market will bear higher prices from SCSI, so SCSI costs more. > >They cost the same to manufacture; it doesn't matter what mask > >you use to burn your 1 square inch ASIC. > > Which is the problem. You're being charged a premium for hardware > that's very similar, due to lower volume. And SCSI has higher command > latency than IDE. SCSI drives usually make up for this with tagged > command queueing, hidden elevator seeking, and larger on-drive > caches. Sometimes this is a clear win, but sometimes it is not. Sorry, but Bzzzt. SCSI is actually cheaper in Europe than the US. It is a function of market pressures. I can put you in contact with the IBM Santa Teresa (disk drive manufacturing) people if you need me to... > The ideal thing would be a hybrid: a drive which supported the > full SCSI command repertoire but didn't have the overhead of > selection, arbitration, bus settling time, signal deskewing, > etc. Yeah, that's called "ATAPI". All IDE CDROMs are SCSI CDROMS in disguise. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 11:19:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BE5151D3 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03746; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:18:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjoaaqh; Tue Dec 14 12:18:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20684; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:19:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912141919.MAA20684@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:18:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Dec 13, 99 09:37:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >They are FAQs, not "in the FAQ". > > I suspect they probably should be in the FAQ. The average admin who > doesn't follow mailing lists asks questions like this. The more we > claim (justifiably) stability, the more seriously they evaluate > FreeBSD against commercial alternatives. This is an area where few of > us really understand the issues involved. > > >The archives you should be looking at, and the place you should be > >asking the question are the freebsd-fs list. > > I did look in the fs archives -- although I'm not sure the general > question belongs there since it seems to have more to do with the > differences between FreeBSD and the commercal offerings. > > Is it fair to summarize the differences as: > > Soft updates provide little in terms of recovering data, but enhances > performance during runtime. Recovery being limited to ignoring > metadata that wasn't written to disk. No. Soft updates: What is lost are uncommitted writes. Committed writes are guaranteed to have been ordered. This means that you can deterministically recover the disk not just to a stable state, but to the stable state that it was intended to be in. The things that are lost are implied state between files (e.g. a record file and an index file for a database); this can be worked around using two stage commits on the data in the database software. Soft updates is slow to recover because of the need to tell the difference between a hard failure and a soft failure (a hard failure is a software or hardware fault; a soft failure is the loss of power). If you can tell this, then you don't need to fsck the drive, only recover over-allocated cylinder group bitmaps. This can be done in the background, locking access to a cylinder group at a time. Distinguishing the failure type is the biggest problem here, and requires NVRAM or a technology like soft read-only (first implemented by a team I was on at Artisoft around 1996 for a port of the Heidemann framework and soft updates to Windows 95, as far as I can tell). > Log file systems offers little data recovery in return for faster > system recovery after an unorderly halt at the cost of a runtime > penalty. Log structured FSs: Zero rotational latency on writes, fast recovery after a hard or soft failure. What is lost are uncommitted writes (see above). LFSs recover quickly because they look for the metadata log entry with the most recent date, and they are "magically" recovered to that point. There is still a catch-22 with regard to soft vs. hard failures, but most hard failures can be safely ignored, since any data dated from before the hard failure is OK, unless the drive is going south. You must therefore differentiate hard failures in the kernel "panic" messages, so that a human has an opportunity to see them. LFSs have an ongoing runtime cost that is effectively the need to "garbage collect" outdated logs so that their extents can be reused by new data. > Journaled filesystem offer the potential of data recovery at a boot > time and runtime cost. JFSs: A JFS maintains a Journal; this is sometimes called an intention log. Because it logs its intent before the fact, it can offer a transactional interface to user space. This lets the programmer skip the more expensive two stage commit process in favor of hooks into the intention log. Because transactions done this way can be nested, a completed but uncommitted transaction can be rolled forward to the extent that the nesting level has returned to "0" -- in other words, all nested transation intents have been logged. Because transactions can be rolled forward, you will recover to the state that the JFS would have been in had the failure not ever occurred. This works, because writes, etc., are not acknowledged back to the caller until the intention has been carried out. Things like an intent to delete a file, rename a file, etc. are logged at level 0 (i.e. not in a user defined transaction bound), and so can be acknowledged immediately; wirtes of actual data need to be delayed, if they are in a transaction bound. This lets you treat a JFS as a committed stable storage, without second-guessing the kernel or the drive cache, etc.. A JFS recovery, like an LFS recovery, uses the most recent valid timestamp in the intention log, and then rules all transactions that have completed forward. Like LFS, hard errors can be ignored, unless the hard errors occur during replay of the journal in rolling some completed transaction forward. Because of this, care must be taken on recovery. JFS recovery can take a while, if there are a lot of completed intentions in the journal. Many JFS implementations also use logs in order to write user data, so that the write acknowledge can be accelerated. > I know this is disgustingly over simplified, but about all you can get > through to typical management. > > I also have to admit, I'm a little confused with your usage of the > word orthogonal. Do you mean that an orthogonal technology projects > cleanly or uniformly into different dimensions of system space? Yes. "Mutually perpendicular" and "Intersecting at only one point". It's my training in physics seeping through... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 11:28:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F5A14D18 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21072; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:28:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAiXa4ZO; Tue Dec 14 12:28:08 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20974; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:28:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912141928.MAA20974@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:28:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991213220839.00c869e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Dec 13, 99 10:20:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >There are those of us who have machines that need long cables. One of the > >boxes I manage has disks that are 15 meters away from the CPU cabinet. > > There will always be some of these, but they'll be statistically rare. They may be disproportionately rare, but I'd also say they were also the boxes with a disproportionately large number of the disks in the world. 8-). > SCSI can really only have 7 disks per cable. (Yes, I know, you can extend > the addressing to get 15, or use logical units, but this causes problems > with bus loading and also with contention for the bus.) > > Also, I'm sure you will agree that hundreds of spindles on one computer > is not the norm. We shouldn't bog down our core standards because of one > case that's several sigma off the low end of the probability scale. I don't see how core standards are getting bogged down by this; you personally use IDE, right? So it doesn't bog you down, at least not except in the sense that you are already bogged down by not being able to interleave your commands because your chosen interface doesn't full implement its core standard. > Also, putting that much disk space on a single machine may not be a good idea. > If it has that much data to serve up or search, it's probably going to be > strapped for CPU cycles or network bandwidth. I only have two things to say to that: 1) Altavista 2) www.cdrom.com Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 11:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887841530D for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23803; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:35:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwHayrU; Tue Dec 14 12:35:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21198; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:35:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912141935.MAA21198@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:35:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at Dec 14, 99 05:05:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Can I point out that the PC isn't the only platform on the planet? When I > was at NASA 16 processor (or more) Origin2000's and Sun Enterprise servers > with anywhere from 200GB to 1TB+ drive arrays on them were quite common. > > Eventually PC's won't be single processor toys. Hell, you can build dual > CPU boxes now for less than a 286 cost 10 years ago. Any spec you come up > with better be scalable, and not ignore multi cpu configurations. Eventually, PCs will go away, and you will host your sessions on mainframes once again; only your destop will just always be there for you to attach to. A lot of things had to happen for us to go from mainframe to mini to pc to lan to clinet/server and then back to mainframe; most of them had to do with economic model (getting away for CPU second charges, getting "click-through" as a revenue model, getting low cost high speed networks in place, etc.). See: http://www.qubit.net/ Perhaps you can even convince them to let you use FreeBSD instead of Linux (they were WIN/CE). I think you will also start to see true "capabilities" based OSs ("capabilities" is a security model), where you can kick out the plug, plug it back in, reattach your "webpad", and be back exactly where you were before you kicked out the plug. Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 12:30:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id E1BBC14CC3; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:30:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199912141935.MAA21198@usr02.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:35:35 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Message-Id: <19991214203024.E1BBC14CC3@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:30:24 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org ???? certain chip vendors chips may be based upon or include clipper chip (do you know of any?). IKE/ISAKMP is not based upon clipper. the leaf fields, the key escrow and all the rest of it are not part of IKE/ISAKMP. this statemtne is based upon reading the RFC's, IPSec by naganamd doraswamy and dan harkins. surely you are not suggesting that KAME has implemented a software version of clipper chip technology in their code. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 16:55:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80341150ED for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28684; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:54:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991214174918.04736140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:51:04 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991213220839.00c869e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:05 AM 12/14/1999 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >Can I point out that the PC isn't the only platform on the planet? When I >was at NASA 16 processor (or more) Origin2000's and Sun Enterprise servers >with anywhere from 200GB to 1TB+ drive arrays on them were quite common. > >Eventually PC's won't be single processor toys. Multiprocessing has always been a stopgap measure to get extra performance out of a machine until uniprocessors caught up. The diminishing returns make tightly coupled multiprocessing far less desirable than loosely coupled (or uncoupled!) distributed computing. Just my 2 cents. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 16:59: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA58152F8 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:59:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28715; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:58:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991214175324.047365d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:54:56 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912141853.LAA19833@usr02.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:53 AM 12/14/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: >Sorry, but Bzzzt. SCSI is actually cheaper in Europe than the >US. Or is IDE more expensive, so that the prices converge that way? This was the impression I got when I was in Europe. > > The ideal thing would be a hybrid: a drive which supported the > > full SCSI command repertoire but didn't have the overhead of > > selection, arbitration, bus settling time, signal deskewing, > > etc. > >Yeah, that's called "ATAPI". All IDE CDROMs are SCSI CDROMS >in disguise. ATAPI is *sort of* that. But not really. Some important SCSI features are missing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 17:12:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B2915400 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28825; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:12:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991214175655.04733770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:01:17 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912141928.MAA20974@usr02.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991213220839.00c869e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:28 PM 12/14/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > Also, I'm sure you will agree that hundreds of spindles on one computer > > is not the norm. We shouldn't bog down our core standards because of one > > case that's several sigma off the low end of the probability scale. > >I don't see how core standards are getting bogged down by this; >you personally use IDE, right? I personally use both IDE and SCSI. Even the laptop I'm typing this on now has both. >So it doesn't bog you down, at >least not except in the sense that you are already bogged down >by not being able to interleave your commands because your chosen >interface doesn't full implement its core standard. Again, I haven't chosen just one interface. But what I'd like to see is a core standard that offers the maximum performance at the least cost in the greatest number of applications. A full implementation of SCSI features over a fast TTL interface with relatively short cables would be the best of both worlds. Of course, none of the other interfaces would go away, so if you really wanted to run a 15-foot cable SCSI would still be there. > > Also, putting that much disk space on a single machine may not be a good idea. > > If it has that much data to serve up or search, it's probably going to be > > strapped for CPU cycles or network bandwidth. > >I only have two things to say to that: > >1) Altavista >2) www.cdrom.com Neither should be one big machine. (Yes, I know that CDROM.COM is, but that's not the way I personally would have implemented it. I would have used at least two machines for redundancy's sake, if for no other reason.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 17:59:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87EDA15431; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:59:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03596; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfQaiZg; Tue Dec 14 18:59:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16770; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:59:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912150159.SAA16770@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:59:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991214203024.E1BBC14CC3@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Dec 14, 99 12:30:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology... > > > ???? certain chip vendors chips may be based upon or > include clipper chip (do you know of any?). > > IKE/ISAKMP is not based upon clipper. the leaf fields, the > key escrow and all the rest of it are not part of IKE/ISAKMP. this > statemtne is based upon reading the RFC's, IPSec by naganamd doraswamy > and dan harkins. surely you are not suggesting that KAME has > implemented a software version of clipper chip technology in their > code. Read the December 1999 ";login:" magazine from Usenix, and see the article: IKE/ISAKMP considered harmful William Allen Simpson I quote from the first paragraph following the abstract: The Internet Security Association and Key Management Protocol (ISAKMP) [RFC-2408] framework was originally developed by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) with an ASN.1 syntax from the initial Fortezza (used in teh nefarious clipper chip). The Internet Key Exchange (IKE) [RFC-2409] is a session-key excahnge mechanism that fits alongside Fortezza under its own "Domain of Interpretation" (DOI). He goes on to state that it has "egregious fundamental design flaws", and states that he was administratively prevented from publishing the information in the IETF until after publication of IKE/ISAKMP. It's interesting that OpenBSD has implemented IKE/ISAKMP already. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 19:49:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE17A15396 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14303; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:48:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:48:31 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Bill Fumerola Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: All About People Message-ID: <19991214214831.B19249@futuresouth.com> References: <38569550.1D3905D6@allaboutpeople.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ freebsd-jobs -> freebsd-chat, before I get thwapped for offtopic ] On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 10:18:21PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Bill Fumerola remarked > > Also, to ask someone for a Microsoft Word format resume is being > pretty ignorant of the person you're trying to hire. HTML or plaintext > is pretty much par for resumes. *sniff* /me hides in the corner with his resume.tex -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 20: 7:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2F215381 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:07:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03846; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:07:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:07:04 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991214174918.04736140@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:05 AM 12/14/1999 , Jamie Bowden wrote: > > >Can I point out that the PC isn't the only platform on the planet? When I > >was at NASA 16 processor (or more) Origin2000's and Sun Enterprise servers > >with anywhere from 200GB to 1TB+ drive arrays on them were quite common. > > > >Eventually PC's won't be single processor toys. > > Multiprocessing has always been a stopgap measure to get extra performance > out of a machine until uniprocessors caught up. The diminishing returns But uniprocessors will never catch up. The glue needed to build an N-way machine will always be less expensive than N uniprocessor boxes. N may change in value as technology changes, but the benefit of being able to share resources like memory and I/O channels wil always exist for some applications. > make tightly coupled multiprocessing far less desirable than loosely > coupled (or uncoupled!) distributed computing. For some applications loosely coupled multi-processing makes sense. For others, like operations on one datastream, it doesn't. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 20:19:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C1015215 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 994371C4A; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88924381B; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:19:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:19:27 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: <19991214214831.B19249@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > *sniff* > /me hides in the corner with his resume.tex There are 12-step programs for people like you. ;-> -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 20:22:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mentisworks.com (valkery.mentisworks.com [207.227.89.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B491533D for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathank@mentisworks.com) Received: from [24.29.246.17] (HELO mentisworks.com) by mentisworks.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.2b6) with ESMTP id 630037; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:22:48 -0600 Received: from [192.168.245.111] (HELO mentisworks.com) by mentisworks.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.2b7) with ESMTP id 1920025; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:22:30 -0600 Message-ID: <38571712.4010281D@mentisworks.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:20:34 -0600 From: Nathan Kinsman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass , dscheidt@enteract.com Subject: A case for IDE based servers, was Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: <199912141853.LAA19833@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wont speak for IDE drives in general. However, I'm currently using Maxtor DiamondMax Plus hard drives for servers with moderate or lower workload. They have DualWave™ twin processors, 2 MB 100 MHz SDRAM cache buffer, 7200 RPM, and run on a UltraDMA 66. On a simple "dd" benchmark, I get 20 megs per second (yeah I know, single tasking). Coupled with an Arco DupliDisk IDE RAID 1 controller, this gives me up to 40 megabytes per disk of fault tolerant storage for around $500.00-$600.00 USD. This is also the price of one WD Enterprise 9 gig SCSI last I checked (a few months ago). I freely admit there are advantages to using SCSI, but with a the above configuration I can put together entire clusters of IDE RAID servers for the price of a single SCSI RAID system. Clearly any performance advantages of SCSI end at that point. DupliDisk-Bay 5.25 IDE RAID 1 Mirroring Controller ......$250 USD 20.40GB Diamond MAX Plus .................................$183 USD 20.40GB Diamond MAX Plus .................................$183 USD Along with rest of server hardware: AMD Athlon 500 ...........................................$181 USD Asus K7M Motherboard .....................................$150 USD 256 Megs SDRAM ...........................................$220 USD Intel EtherExpress Pro 100+ NIC ..........................$ 60 USD 3DCool Tornado 1000 Case .................................$155 USD (supercooling!) Floppy, keyboard, etc .....................................$ 50 USD approx And there you go, a high performance hardware RAID 1 server for FreeBSD at around $1400 USD, or the price of a cheap RAID controller. Buy 6 of them and build a server cluster that would massively outperform a similarly priced Dell Poweredge 4350 with Dual Pentium 600s and mirrored 18 gig SCSI. Prices obtained by Pricewatch. http://www.pricewatch.com - Nathan Kinsman, |nathan@kinsman.nu| don't send spamtrap@mentisworks.com Network Integrator, Systems Architect |FreeBSD/Linux/Netware/MS Windows| Phone/Fax: |Chicago| +1 312 803-2220 |Sydney| + 61 2 9475 4500 http://nathan.kinsman.nu | http://www.mentisworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 14 20:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4811115381 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (hoefnix.ai [209.88.68.215]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC44945; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:52:33 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <38571E5C.8D7CBA05@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:51:40 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: <199912150159.SAA16770@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology.. It's said to see someone like you issue such a FUDish statement. IKE may have it's problems but this has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper heritage'. > Read the December 1999 ";login:" magazine from Usenix, and see > the article: > > IKE/ISAKMP considered harmful > William Allen Simpson > > I quote from the first paragraph following the abstract: > > The Internet Security Association and Key Management > Protocol (ISAKMP) [RFC-2408] framework was originally > developed by the United States National Security > Agency (NSA) with an ASN.1 syntax from the initial > Fortezza (used in teh nefarious clipper chip). The > Internet Key Exchange (IKE) [RFC-2409] is a session-key > excahnge mechanism that fits alongside Fortezza under > its own "Domain of Interpretation" (DOI). > > He goes on to state that it has "egregious fundamental design > flaws", and states that he was administratively prevented from > publishing the information in the IETF until after publication > of IKE/ISAKMP. This reinforces my comments above. And if you quote the *relevant* sections of the document it will become even clearer... > It's interesting that OpenBSD has implemented IKE/ISAKMP already. What are you trying to say? Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 0: 5: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D71F15439 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA63285 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199912150805.AAA63285@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 0:15:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB7815019 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02558; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:15:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:12:54 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991214174918.04736140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:07 PM 12/14/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: > > Multiprocessing has always been a stopgap measure to get extra performance > > out of a machine until uniprocessors caught up. The diminishing returns > >But uniprocessors will never catch up. Actually, uniprocessors often do best in price/performance, because multiprocessor servers are priced so high and CPUs represent such a large precentage of the price of the system. >The glue needed to build an N-way >machine will always be less expensive than N uniprocessor boxes. Not so. The special chip sets are usually priced at a premium. > > make tightly coupled multiprocessing far less desirable than loosely > > coupled (or uncoupled!) distributed computing. > >For some applications loosely coupled multi-processing makes sense. For >others, like operations on one datastream, it doesn't. Actually, a Web page that draws images from several servers via IMG tags is very much like an "operation on one datastream," very neatly distributed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 0:24:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958B715120 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:24:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29032; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:53:29 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:53:29 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, noslenj@swbell.net, Terry Lambert , Jamie Bowden , David Scheidt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Dec-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Not so. The special chip sets are usually priced at a premium. Well not in the case for 'low end' SMP.. ie an Epox dual PII/PIII mobo is about AU$40 more expensive than the UP version.. Its a basic board, and doesn't have anything on board, but they work really nicely under FreeBSD :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 8: 2:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D3C151A8 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:02:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA60586; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:02:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:02:25 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:07 PM 12/14/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: > > > > Multiprocessing has always been a stopgap measure to get extra performance > > > out of a machine until uniprocessors caught up. The diminishing returns > > > >But uniprocessors will never catch up. > > Actually, uniprocessors often do best in price/performance, because multiprocessor > servers are priced so high and CPUs represent such a large precentage of the price > of the system. On NonPC machines, CPU cost is a pretty small fraction of system cost. I have a quote to upgrade a pair of 2-way HP9000/892/T520 boxes to 10-way HP9000/891/T500s that happens to be sitting on my desk. The total cost is about 200K, of this, abour 40K is for the CPUs. The rest is bus converters, memory, SCSI cards, expansion card cages, disks, expansion racks, network interfaces and so on. If we were building the system from scratch, we would have to have also bought the CPU cabinet, power supplies, and more of everything else. I expect that CPU cost would be on the order of 10 or 15% of the purchase price of the machine. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 8:20:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A01151FF for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11122; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:20:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:20:10 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Bill Fumerola Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > *sniff* > > /me hides in the corner with his resume.tex > > There are 12-step programs for people like you. ;-> Matt - when you find a program for TeX please tell me - I'll definitely need to go. Brett - who writes _everything_ in LaTeX. ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 8:30:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEBA15492 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05462; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:27:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215092357.04938b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:27:22 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:02 AM 12/15/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >On NonPC machines, CPU cost is a pretty small fraction of system >cost. That's because, on more proprietary systems, the costs of other components are artificially high -- usually by artifice. I remember trying to put a generic SCSI drive into an SGI system several years ago. It was a struggle, because they used special mounting brackets and a special connector, trying to make it look as if you HAD to buy the drive from them at 4X the going price. But it was a plain old SCSI drive, and you could tell which brand by looking at the mechanical design. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 9:45:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416F1152E9 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA84904; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:45:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:45:29 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215092357.04938b50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ cc list trimmed. ] On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:02 AM 12/15/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: > > >On NonPC machines, CPU cost is a pretty small fraction of system > >cost. > > That's because, on more proprietary systems, the costs of other > components are artificially high -- usually by artifice. I remember My point was that NonPC machines tend to have a higher peripherial loads, and better designed hardware. They have things like memory subsystems that support 16-way interleaving and multiple-bit ECC. They are also much lower volume, which pushes up the cost of parts. The setup costs for an ASIC are much the same if you are making 20,000 or a million. > trying to put a generic SCSI drive into an SGI system several years > ago. It was a struggle, because they used special mounting brackets > and a special connector, trying to make it look as if you HAD to > buy the drive from them at 4X the going price. But it was a plain > old SCSI drive, and you could tell which brand by looking at the > mechanical design. HP aren't so bad about that. They do use a proprietary disk enclosure system, but it is very nice, and we did look at other systems. Equivelent systems weren't much cheaper, and didn't have as good guarantees about long-term replacement part availability. If a system has a design life-time of seven years, you want to be sure you can get spares in 6.5! (You can, of course, stockpile them yourself, but there are non-trivial costs involved with that. ) David scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 9:58:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27322155A8 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 19934 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 17:58:42 -0000 Received: from userbm50.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.145.2) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 17:58:42 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA00855; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:58:35 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:58:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Message-ID: <19991215175834.A325@marder-1> References: <4.2.0.58.19991213200556.0473c1e0@localhost> <199912141853.LAA19833@usr02.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19991214175324.047365d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991214175324.047365d0@localhost> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 05:54:56PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:53 AM 12/14/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Sorry, but Bzzzt. SCSI is actually cheaper in Europe than the > >US. > > Or is IDE more expensive, so that the prices converge that way? > This was the impression I got when I was in Europe. > Where in Europe? In this month's Personal Computer World (Dabs Direct advert, http://www.dabs.com): IBM 18ES U2W 18.1GB UKP364.25 IBM 36ZX U2W 36.7GB UKP821.32 IBM Deskstar GP UDMA66 20.3GB UKP139.82 IBM Deskstar GXP UDMA66 34.2GB UKP252.62 The exchange rate as I type is US$1.6067 to the UKP > > > The ideal thing would be a hybrid: a drive which supported the > > > full SCSI command repertoire but didn't have the overhead of > > > selection, arbitration, bus settling time, signal deskewing, > > > etc. > > > >Yeah, that's called "ATAPI". All IDE CDROMs are SCSI CDROMS > >in disguise. > > ATAPI is *sort of* that. But not really. Some important SCSI > features are missing. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 11:49:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C99714DD6 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11yKQ4-000PNq-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA94958; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Taylor Cc: Bill Fumerola , "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: >Matt - when you find a program for TeX please tell me - I'll definitely >need to go. > >Brett - who writes _everything_ in LaTeX. I'm a young whippersnapper of 28, and i'm starting to fall in love with it myself. I just hate having to convert to PS then sneaker net to a windows machine with a printer. >***************************************************** >Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * >Dept of Chem and Physics * >Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * >Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * >Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * >***************************************************** > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 11:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABB0154DB for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:52:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11yKTL-0002eE-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:52:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA94992; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:52:25 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:52:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: atrn@zeta.org.au, David Scheidt , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Stupidity In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >Would you pay $400 for a recorder? I cannot find any dealer that >carries it, and for good reason. I doubt they make very many, >IF ANY AT ALL. (It may not really be available.) > >The presence of the model in their catalog may be an attempt to >get other vendors to likewise price their recorders out of the >market. Wouldn't that just encourage other companies to sell _cheaper_? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 11:57:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B2F15549 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:57:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11083; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:55:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:55:23 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: All About People Message-ID: <19991215135523.A10944@futuresouth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 07:49:04PM +0000, a little birdie told me that Jonathon McKitrick remarked > > I'm a young whippersnapper of 28, and i'm starting to fall in love with it > myself. I just hate having to convert to PS then sneaker net to a windows > machine with a printer. I very much like it. I don't have much written in it (mainly because I don't write much of anything beyond email nowadays) (my handwriting has also gone to hell since the only thing I hand write anymore is my signature and a few checks a month :), but it's waiting for me when I write anything else. Why must you sneakernet? And I'm only a young whippersnapper of 20 myself :) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 12: 3:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0408B14A06 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11yKdZ-000PSP-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:03:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA95086; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:03:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:03:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: <19991215135523.A10944@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >Why must you sneakernet? I have a laptop.. i use dad's printer or one at work. (windows, of course) >And I'm only a young whippersnapper of 20 myself :) I wish i had switched to BSD when i was younger instead of refusing to give up my amiga. I feel so behind the times for my age. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 12:55:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CBA1566F for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:55:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23423; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:52:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <3857FF87.3272254E@owp.csus.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:52:24 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >Why must you sneakernet? > I have a laptop.. i use dad's printer or one at work. (windows, of course) Having already pointed a few people to this I finally bookmarked it : http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/samba/chapter/book/ch07_02.html This is the online version of the new O'Reilly book on Samba. I've never actually done it, but this described how to use Samba to print to a print share on a Windows box. This combined with a good print filter for non-postscript printers should do the trick. Oh, I guess I'm assuming these things are all networked. If they are not they just file the above in the nearest gee whiz collection :-) > >And I'm only a young whippersnapper of 20 myself :) > I wish i had switched to BSD when i was younger instead of refusing to > give up my amiga. I feel so behind the times for my age. > Nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like that sometimes. I'm 26. I left using OS/2 around 4 years ago to start playing with FreeBSD. Mostly a side affect of working for an ISP at the time. I've been a very happy FreeBSD user ever since ( althought I've got an NT box at home, for my wife's use ). -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16: 5:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675B015394; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:05:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25400; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:05:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAcHaqBX; Wed Dec 15 17:05:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25668; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:05:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912160005.RAA25668@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: jeroen@vangelderen.org (Jeroen C. van Gelderen) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:05:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38571E5C.8D7CBA05@vangelderen.org> from "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" at Dec 15, 99 00:51:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology.. > > It's said to see someone like you issue such a FUDish statement. IKE > may have it's problems but this has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper > heritage'. ";login:" is read by a hell of a lot more people than my posts to "chat". The ";login:" article identifies many attacks against IKE/ISAKMP, and provides source code for one of them. > This reinforces my comments above. And if you quote the *relevant* > sections of the document it will become even clearer... The ";login:" document, or the IKE/ISAKMP document? > > It's interesting that OpenBSD has implemented IKE/ISAKMP already. > > What are you trying to say? That perhaps they would have something useful to say on the subject. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16: 7:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1920C14D35 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:07:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26137; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:07:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhAaOZY; Wed Dec 15 17:07:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25886; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:07:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912160007.RAA25886@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:07:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Dec 15, 99 01:12:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >The glue needed to build an N-way > >machine will always be less expensive than N uniprocessor boxes. > > Not so. The special chip sets are usually priced at a premium. I think this is because they work, and allow things like more than 2 PCI bus masters at a time, compared to many chipsets, whose arbitration logic fails over 2 PCI masters. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:11:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C04B155FA for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:11:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10640; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:10:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215170740.04995e60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:10:27 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991215092357.04938b50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:45 AM 12/15/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >HP aren't so bad about that. They do use a proprietary disk enclosure >system, but it is very nice, and we did look at other systems. Equivelent >systems weren't much cheaper, and didn't have as good guarantees about >long-term replacement part availability. If a system has a design life-time >of seven years, you want to be sure you can get spares in 6.5! (You can, of >course, stockpile them yourself, but there are non-trivial costs involved >with that. ) HP is the very WORST manufacturer when it comes to out-of-warranty service. Costs to do anything more than routine maintenance on any product that's no longer shipping are designed to exceed the replacement cost. They once wanted to charge me $350 for -- believe it or not -- a KEYCAP! (They wouldn't send it without charging me for a whole new keyboard.) In fact, in many cases, they just WILL NOT SELL PARTS. I'll never buy a printer or laptop from them again due to such policies. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:14:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BA014EBF for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10664; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:12:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215171057.0494dcf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:12:04 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: atrn@zeta.org.au, David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:52 PM 12/15/1999 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Wouldn't that just encourage other companies to sell _cheaper_? Nope; it's like airline pricing. When the leader goes up, the others generally follow. What's more, competitors can be goaded into going along via threats of harrassing copyright suits. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:15:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DCD155FC for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:15:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (hoefnix.ai [209.88.68.215]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDECA4B; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:15:09 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <38582ED0.7F5D15E1@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:14:08 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: jmb@hub.freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: <199912160005.RAA25668@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology.. > > > > It's said to see someone like you issue such a FUDish statement. IKE > > may have it's problems but this has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper > > heritage'. > > ";login:" is read by a hell of a lot more people than my > posts to "chat". What's your point? > The ";login:" article identifies many attacks against IKE/ISAKMP, > and provides source code for one of them. This still has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper heritage' as you originally implied[1]. > > This reinforces my comments above. And if you quote the *relevant* > > sections of the document it will become even clearer... > > The ";login:" document, or the IKE/ISAKMP document? The ";login:" document. The part you quoted doesn't tell us that the problems stem from any 'Clipper heritage', so quote the relevant part. > > > It's interesting that OpenBSD has implemented IKE/ISAKMP already. > > > > What are you trying to say? > > That perhaps they would have something useful to say on the > subject. Can't get less FUD^H^H^Huseful, so I agree. Cheers, Jeroen [1] "Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology..." -- Terry Lambert -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:23:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E073314DFF for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:23:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:23:40 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jonathon McKitrick" Cc: Subject: RE: Video Stupidity Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:23:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf475b$cd432930$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215171057.0494dcf0@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Wouldn't that just encourage other companies to sell _cheaper_? > > Nope; it's like airline pricing. When the leader goes up, the others > generally follow. Yes, but the others don't set their pricing quite as high as the leader does. Eventually, the other companies competing with each other push the prices down and the leader's pricing becomes largely irrelevant. At that point, the 'leader' either has to do what the others or doing or abandon the market. This is perfectly demonstrated by IBM in the PC market. This isn't guaranteed to happen. It requires sufficient demand and that the leader set its pricing sufficiently high. So long as there are profits to be made by undercutting the leader, and people are free to do so, someone will. This will happen over and over until it's no longer profitable to undercut. > What's more, competitors can be goaded into going along via threats > of harrassing copyright suits. Only if the government makes it easy for them to do so. Take a look at some of the VCR and Rio lawsuits. But understand that it's not entirely fair to blame the government for holding back technology -- copyright holders have legitimate rights and interests too. If the government lets intellectual property rights get trampled on, eventually there will be no movies to record on your VCR. The only songs to play on your Rio will be the ones 'freely available'. And we all know how good those are. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:36:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B03014C2F for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10967; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:36:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215173331.046e1aa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:36:25 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, tlambert@primenet.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912160007.RAA25886@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991215010917.048dfae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:07 PM 12/15/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > >The glue needed to build an N-way > > >machine will always be less expensive than N uniprocessor boxes. > > > > Not so. The special chip sets are usually priced at a premium. > >I think this is because they work, and allow things like more >than 2 PCI bus masters at a time, compared to many chipsets, >whose arbitration logic fails over 2 PCI masters. That's correct. Most of these chipsets are produced in relatively small volumes by server manufacturers, who must devote a lot of time, effort, equipment, and staff to R&D. One pays a premium for that! The most cost-effective solution, when one needs more computing resources than fit cheaply into one box, is to find ways to distribute the problem cleanly among MANY boxes. SMP is, most of the time, either a last resort or a way to throw money at the problem rather than finessing it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:41:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C2D15634 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11027; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:39:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215173848.00ca4ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:39:51 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Video Stupidity Cc: In-Reply-To: <000101bf475b$cd432930$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991215171057.0494dcf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:23 PM 12/15/1999 , David Schwartz wrote: > > >Wouldn't that just encourage other companies to sell _cheaper_? > > > > Nope; it's like airline pricing. When the leader goes up, the others > > generally follow. > > Yes, but the others don't set their pricing quite as high as the leader >does. Not true -- particularly not in the airline business. But then, you have displayed in previous messages your lack of knowledge of economics. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:43:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB751563B for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:43:30 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jonathon McKitrick" Cc: Subject: RE: Video Stupidity Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf475e$92e396f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215173848.00ca4ba0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 05:23 PM 12/15/1999 , David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > >Wouldn't that just encourage other companies to sell _cheaper_? > > > > > > Nope; it's like airline pricing. When the leader goes up, the others > > > generally follow. > > > > Yes, but the others don't set their pricing quite as > high as the leader > >does. > > Not true -- particularly not in the airline business. I guess I must have imagined those fare wars then. In any event, this is not a very good example because there are tremendous (and unique) barriers to entry in the airline business. For example, foreign airlines are still effectively prohibited from competing on domestic routes. > But then, you have displayed in previous messages your lack of knowledge > of economics. Ah, your famous ad hominem. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:54:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4479B14E09; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16023; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:54:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAySaiqF; Wed Dec 15 17:54:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28607; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:54:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912160054.RAA28607@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: jeroen@vangelderen.org (Jeroen C. van Gelderen) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:54:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38582ED0.7F5D15E1@vangelderen.org> from "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" at Dec 15, 99 08:14:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > > > Now if only IKE/ISAKMP weren't based on clipper chip technology.. > > > > > > It's said to see someone like you issue such a FUDish statement. IKE > > > may have it's problems but this has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper > > > heritage'. > > > > ";login:" is read by a hell of a lot more people than my > > posts to "chat". > > What's your point? That my post informs about the ";login:" article, and, having a smaller circulation, should be taken as a call for indignant people such as yourself, rather than a direct FUD supposedly by me. > > The ";login:" article identifies many attacks against IKE/ISAKMP, > > and provides source code for one of them. > > This still has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper heritage' as you > originally implied[1]. I don't understand how you can make this bald a statement; the problems with Fortezza based systems are that the underlying state machine sucks. Why is it when knee-jerk reactionaries see "Clipper", they automatically think I'm talking about back doors, rather than the quality of the technology? > > The ";login:" document, or the IKE/ISAKMP document? > > The ";login:" document. The part you quoted doesn't tell us that > the problems stem from any 'Clipper heritage', so quote the > relevant part. A great many of the problematic specifications are due to the IKE/ISAKMP framework. This is not surprising, since the early drafts used ASN.1 and were fairly clearly ISO-inspired. The observations of another ISO implementor (and security analyst) appear applicable: The specification was so general, and left so many choices, that it was necessary to hold "implementor workshops" to agree on what subsets to build and what choices to make. The specification wasn't a specification of a protocol. Instead it was a framework in which a protocol could be designed and implemented. [Folklore-00] The IKE/ISAKMP framework relies on a "Domain of Interpretation" (DOI) for the actual details. IKE/ISAKMP has required numerous implementation workshops to reach agreement on the interpretations of the spcifications. Implementation and testing has already taken several years. In any case, if you want to read more, you can always get a copy of the December ";login:" from any technical library, instead of having me type it in for you. > > > > It's interesting that OpenBSD has implemented IKE/ISAKMP already. > > > > > > What are you trying to say? > > > > That perhaps they would have something useful to say on the > > subject. > > Can't get less FUD^H^H^Huseful, so I agree. I meant that I would be interested in how they answer Mr. Simpson's objections. All of them, not just the Fortezza based ones. He outlines a number of vulnerabilities: o Cookie crumb attack o Cookie Jar Attack o Cookie race attack o Agressive denial of service o Cookie deficiency o Revealed identities o Futile filters o Quick denial of service and provides source code for the "Cookie crumbs" exploit. I would be very interested in how people are going to defend an IKE/ISAKMP system against this exploit. The code runs on FreeBSD. The author can be reached at: if you want to obtain source code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 16:58:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC49155EB for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14552; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:57:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwTaqdC; Wed Dec 15 17:57:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28775; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:57:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912160057.RAA28775@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:57:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dscheidt@enteract.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215173331.046e1aa0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Dec 15, 99 05:36:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > >The glue needed to build an N-way > > > >machine will always be less expensive than N uniprocessor boxes. > > > > > > Not so. The special chip sets are usually priced at a premium. > > > >I think this is because they work, and allow things like more > >than 2 PCI bus masters at a time, compared to many chipsets, > >whose arbitration logic fails over 2 PCI masters. > > That's correct. Most of these chipsets are produced in relatively > small volumes by server manufacturers, who must devote a lot of > time, effort, equipment, and staff to R&D. One pays a premium > for that! My point here was that I don't give a damn how cheap it is, if it doesn't work. It doesn't matter if I'm getting a palm computer, a pager, or installing a network operations center: if it doesn't work, it's not useful for anything but landfill. > The most cost-effective solution, when one needs more computing > resources than fit cheaply into one box, is to find ways to > distribute the problem cleanly among MANY boxes. SMP is, most > of the time, either a last resort or a way to throw money at > the problem rather than finessing it. I'm not even involved in your SMP thread; I'm only saying that what's "special" about the chipsets you seem to find too expensive is that they actually _work_, compared to the cheaper chipsets you are putatively defending. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 17:20:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486F015414 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (hoefnix.ai [209.88.68.215]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597B44A; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:20:49 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <38583E33.3FBCE8E3@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:19:47 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: jmb@hub.freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: <199912160054.RAA28607@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The ";login:" article identifies many attacks against IKE/ISAKMP, > > > and provides source code for one of them. > > > > This still has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper heritage' as you > > originally implied[1]. > > I don't understand how you can make this bald a statement; the > problems with Fortezza based systems are that the underlying > state machine sucks. Now you are talking about Fortezza. There is a difference between clipper (the chip, MYK-78T) and Fortezza. You got your terminology wrong. > Why is it when knee-jerk reactionaries see "Clipper", they > automatically think I'm talking about back doors, rather than > the quality of the technology? Because clipper is all about backdoors and the quality of the clipper chip is actually rather good. > > > The ";login:" document, or the IKE/ISAKMP document? > > > > The ";login:" document. The part you quoted doesn't tell us that > > the problems stem from any 'Clipper heritage', so quote the > > relevant part. > > A great many of the problematic specifications are due > to the IKE/ISAKMP framework. This is not surprising, > since the early drafts used ASN.1 and were fairly clearly > ISO-inspired. The observations of another ISO implementor > (and security analyst) appear applicable: > > The specification was so general, and left so many > choices, that it was necessary to hold "implementor > workshops" to agree on what subsets to build and > what choices to make. The specification wasn't a > specification of a protocol. Instead it was a > framework in which a protocol could be designed and > implemented. [Folklore-00] > > The IKE/ISAKMP framework relies on a "Domain of > Interpretation" (DOI) for the actual details. IKE/ISAKMP > has required numerous implementation workshops to reach > agreement on the interpretations of the spcifications. > Implementation and testing has already taken several years. Still says nothing about 'clipper' nor about Fortezza. It talks about ASN.1 and ISO. > In any case, if you want to read more, you can always get a copy > of the December ";login:" from any technical library, instead of > having me type it in for you. I have a copy, thanks. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 19:49:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B440815418; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@UDel.Edu) Received: from morgaine (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by copland.udel.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA24662; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:49:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:49:43 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: John Subject: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all, I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have: - Mail server - Router - Existing AIX-based box - Possibly web server - Firewall (separate machine). - A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based. Simply put, my plans were to make all severs FreeBSD, with the exception of the one machin that HAS to be NT, and the existing AIX machine (it has a maintenance contract from the supplier on it). We're trying to make sure that all is well in the world, and today my boss comes to me and says "how about using Windows 2000 for the network?". I've been hunting high and low, but have only come up with a bunch of articles on what Win2K is SUPPOSED to do, not what it IS doing (yes, I do realize it's still in Beta). I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts? Here's the needs: - Ease of maintenance - GREAT stability - High security If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is supposed to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts file is for. I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. So, the idea of support is somewhat important. My concern is that they install an MS network now, and spend an eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis, with the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 --> win95). My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, b) the first major crash, c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent need to update RSAREF2), or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're running 3.x-stable, and a new port comes out that they REALLY need that only runs on the newer versions. Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might find more information? Thanks in advance, John Papalia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 20:15:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E162152E3 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:15:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@azazel.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA25152; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:12:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:12:31 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Joseph Scott Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People Message-ID: <19991215201230.B15742@azazel.zer0.org> References: <3857FF87.3272254E@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <3857FF87.3272254E@owp.csus.edu> Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 08:52:24PM +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > > >Why must you sneakernet? > > I have a laptop.. i use dad's printer or one at work. (windows, of course) > > This is the online version of the new O'Reilly book on Samba. I've > never actually done it, but this described how to use Samba to print > to a print share on a Windows box. This combined with a good print > filter for non-postscript printers should do the trick. I used to do it all the time. In mutt, for example: set print_command="smbclient \\\\\\\\lpthost\\\\printer1 -P -c 'printmode graphics; print -'" (Note: with Samba 2.x, the "-P" flag is unnecessary.) This command could be used from just about any program, sans ultra-backslash-escaping. (Windoze locations are \\host\service.) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 20:19:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A3B15392 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:19:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27769; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:48:51 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19991215201230.B15742@azazel.zer0.org> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:48:42 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: All About People Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , "Matthew D. Fuller" , Jonathon McKitrick , Joseph Scott Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Dec-99 Gregory Sutter wrote: > set print_command="smbclient \\\\\\\\lpthost\\\\printer1 -P -c > 'printmode graphics; print -'" > > (Note: with Samba 2.x, the "-P" flag is unnecessary.) > > This command could be used from just about any program, sans > ultra-backslash-escaping. (Windoze locations are \\host\service.) Samba 2.x smbclient accepts /'s as well as \'s :) Also, you can setup something in /etc/printcap to do this for you.. (Or better yet get apsfilter THEN hook it up to smbclient) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 20:24:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D66915003 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@azazel.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA25344; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:22:29 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People Message-ID: <19991215202229.C15742@azazel.zer0.org> References: <19991215201230.B15742@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 02:48:42PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On 16-Dec-99 Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > set print_command="smbclient \\\\\\\\lpthost\\\\printer1 -P -c > > 'printmode graphics; print -'" > > > > This command could be used from just about any program, sans > > ultra-backslash-escaping. (Windoze locations are \\host\service.) > > Samba 2.x smbclient accepts /'s as well as \'s :) Whew, that's a relief. I sometimes have trouble counting to eight. :) I haven't had much need for samba lately, so I'm not really up on the 2.x-series features. These days, I mostly just use it to create a quick way for windoze users to grab a bunch of mp3s when they stop over. It's easier to have them drag'n'drop then to have to use the crappy command-line FTP client myself. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 22: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F4714CAB for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13853; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:06:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215230249.03d6ad10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:06:26 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dscheidt@enteract.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199912160057.RAA28775@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991215173331.046e1aa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:57 PM 12/15/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: >My point here was that I don't give a damn how cheap it is, >if it doesn't work. In this business, "cheap" doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't work;" more often, it means "high volume." Which, in a competitive market, means that it is more likely to work. The bugs will come out quickly, and customers will switch to other products if they're not fixed. (A non-competitive market, such as desktop operating systems, is another story, of course.) > > The most cost-effective solution, when one needs more computing > > resources than fit cheaply into one box, is to find ways to > > distribute the problem cleanly among MANY boxes. SMP is, most > > of the time, either a last resort or a way to throw money at > > the problem rather than finessing it. > >I'm not even involved in your SMP thread; I'm only saying that >what's "special" about the chipsets you seem to find too expensive >is that they actually _work_, compared to the cheaper chipsets >you are putatively defending. I've seen some darn good "cheap" chipsets. VIA's come to mind. In fact, VIA was good enough to be tapped by AMD to design the motherboard chipsets for the Athlon. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 22: 9:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888F714E08 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13870; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:08:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991215230642.03d6cc40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:08:02 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Video Stupidity Cc: In-Reply-To: <000101bf475e$92e396f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991215173848.00ca4ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:43 PM 12/15/1999 , David Schwartz wrote: > > But then, you have displayed in previous messages your lack of knowledge > > of economics. > > Ah, your famous ad hominem. It's not "ad hominem" to remind folks to consider the source. Especially when that source has been shown to lack credibility. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 15 22:12: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B7914F70 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:12:00 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Video Stupidity Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:12:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf478c$76f8e5c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991215230642.03d6cc40@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 05:43 PM 12/15/1999 , David Schwartz wrote: > > > > But then, you have displayed in previous messages your lack > of knowledge > > > of economics. > > > > Ah, your famous ad hominem. > > It's not "ad hominem" to remind folks to consider the source. Especially > when that source has been shown to lack credibility. > > --Brett Glass C'mon Brett, you know better than this. You can't respond to a reasoned argument by impugning the credibility of the source. The source of a reasoned argument is irrelevant. It is certainly ad hominem to respond to a reasoned argument with a personal insult. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 4:34:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCD0155DC for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 48D8B7555; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3467E1D89 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:35:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:35:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > trying to put a generic SCSI drive into an SGI system several years > ago. It was a struggle, because they used special mounting brackets > and a special connector, trying to make it look as if you HAD to > buy the drive from them at 4X the going price. But it was a plain > old SCSI drive, and you could tell which brand by looking at the > mechanical design. Sorry Brett, but this is just wrong. SGI uses mounting sleds that only work in their machines, but so does everyone else. The connectors are all standard 50pin, 68pin, or SCA. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, how Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 7:35:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.monsterbymistake.com (monsterbymistake.com [205.207.163.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E410E14F04 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drek@MonsterByMistake.Com) Received: from jazz.monsterbymistake.com (jazz.monsterbymistake.com[205.207.163.189]) by mail.monsterbymistake.com (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #3; 1998-Sep-25) (2043 bytes) via sendmail with /P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp id (sender ident using rfc1413) for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:25:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:45:20 -0500 (EST) From: Agent Drek To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: |Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:35:16 -0800 (PST) |From: Jamie Bowden |To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG |Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? | | |Brett Glass wrote: | |> trying to put a generic SCSI drive into an SGI system several years |> ago. It was a struggle, because they used special mounting brackets |> and a special connector, trying to make it look as if you HAD to |> buy the drive from them at 4X the going price. But it was a plain |> old SCSI drive, and you could tell which brand by looking at the |> mechanical design. | |Sorry Brett, but this is just wrong. SGI uses mounting sleds that only |work in their machines, but so does everyone else. The connectors are all |standard 50pin, 68pin, or SCA. | |Jamie Bowden | |-- The only time I've been *had* by a company for SCSI drives is when we bought an AVID. The super special AVID drives are just SCSI drives rigged so that the software on the mac knows that they came from AVID...unfortunately it is part of one's contract when buying those super special AVID drives that you not in any way try and make your own disks work ... they are quite expensive. No-one I've talked to from AVID has been able to justify these drives to me yet... On the other hand, my experiences with SGI boxes have been very good. The option drives for the ORIGIN series are from IBM. I also have an old personal IRIS with standard seagates mounted interally. bye. =derek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 8: 6:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6660E1505A for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:06:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a.genkin@utoronto.ca) Received: from main.wgaf.net ([24.114.152.71]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19991216160450.QFIU15480.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@main.wgaf.net> for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:04:50 -0800 Received: from antipode by main.wgaf.net with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11ydQd-0000QH-00; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:06:55 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [OT] 64M recognized as 16M X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: Wgaf From: Arcady Genkin Date: 16 Dec 1999 11:06:55 -0500 Message-ID: <87iu1yhnts.fsf@main.wgaf.net> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I know it's offtopic, but I'm having a hardware problem with my FreeBSD box, so here it goes... I tried upgrading RAM on a P233 computer by adding a 64M 168-pin module (the system already has 32M), but the module is recognized as 16M only. My mobo (an ASUS P/I-P55TVP4) is supposed to handle SDRAM modules upto 64M (according to manual). Has anyone had this kind of problem with an older Pentium board? Is there a tweak in the BIOS that I need ot adjust, perhaps? Thanks, -- Arcady Genkin http://wgaf.dyndns.org "'What good is my pity? Is not the pity the cross upon which he who loves man is nailed?..'" (Zarathustra - F. Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 8:20:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6982A15488 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA33874; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:20:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:20:29 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Arcady Genkin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] 64M recognized as 16M In-Reply-To: <87iu1yhnts.fsf@main.wgaf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Dec 1999, Arcady Genkin wrote: > Hi all, > I know it's offtopic, but I'm having a hardware problem with my > FreeBSD box, so here it goes... > > I tried upgrading RAM on a P233 computer by adding a 64M 168-pin > module (the system already has 32M), but the module is recognized as > 16M only. My mobo (an ASUS P/I-P55TVP4) is supposed to handle SDRAM > modules upto 64M (according to manual). > > Has anyone had this kind of problem with an older Pentium board? Is > there a tweak in the BIOS that I need ot adjust, perhaps? Add options MAXMEM="(96*1024)" to your kernel config, assuming it is 96 MB of RAM you have in the box. This is a common problem on older boxes with lots of memory. David > > Thanks, > -- > Arcady Genkin http://wgaf.dyndns.org > "'What good is my pity? Is not the pity the cross upon which he who > loves man is nailed?..'" (Zarathustra - F. Nietzsche) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 8:34:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA1714FE2 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a.genkin@utoronto.ca) Received: from main.wgaf.net ([24.114.152.71]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19991216163230.QKSX15480.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@main.wgaf.net> for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:32:30 -0800 Received: from antipode by main.wgaf.net with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11ydrP-0000TF-00; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:34:35 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] 64M recognized as 16M References: X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: Wgaf From: Arcady Genkin Date: 16 Dec 1999 11:34:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:20:29 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: <87emcmhmjo.fsf@main.wgaf.net> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > > I tried upgrading RAM on a P233 computer by adding a 64M 168-pin > > module (the system already has 32M), but the module is recognized as > > 16M only. My mobo (an ASUS P/I-P55TVP4) is supposed to handle SDRAM > > modules upto 64M (according to manual). > > Add > options MAXMEM="(96*1024)" > > to your kernel config, assuming it is 96 MB of RAM you have in the box. > This is a common problem on older boxes with lots of memory. I must have been unclear in my original post. It's the BIOS that doesn't recognize the RAM in the first place. The memory count on power-up only goes to 16M. FWIW, the mobo has an Intel 430VX chipset. Any ideas? -- Arcady Genkin http://wgaf.dyndns.org "'What good is my pity? Is not the pity the cross upon which he who loves man is nailed?..'" (Zarathustra - F. Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 8:50:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A3B1565A for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA40427; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:50:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:50:19 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Arcady Genkin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] 64M recognized as 16M In-Reply-To: <87emcmhmjo.fsf@main.wgaf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Dec 1999, Arcady Genkin wrote: > David Scheidt writes: > > > > > Add > > options MAXMEM="(96*1024)" > > > > to your kernel config, assuming it is 96 MB of RAM you have in the box. > > This is a common problem on older boxes with lots of memory. > > I must have been unclear in my original post. It's the BIOS that > doesn't recognize the RAM in the first place. The memory count on > power-up only goes to 16M. What does the OS report? They are not the same thing. MAXMEM tells the kernel how much memory is in the box, and to ignore what the bios tells it. Try it. You'll like it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 8:57: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F56155A9 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:57:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA45676; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:55:14 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Anthony Kimball Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall: is it really at the end of its lifecycle? In-Reply-To: <14424.37823.671739.167701@avalon.east> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Note redirect to -chat. On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > > System Housekeeping Advanced Management Utility ? I think SHAMU is copyrighted by SeaWorld anyway. :) Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 9:22:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0785114BCC for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15968 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:22:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:22:08 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Adobe supports linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, I just read on Slashdot that Adobe has released beta versions of FrameMaker and Distiller for Linux. I am in the process of downloading to see if it runs fine under the compatibility layer now - beware the FrameMaker download is 23 MB! Distiller is set to be released in Q1 of 2000. http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/fmlinux.html Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 12:53:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32B71584D for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29334; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38595149.5CAA9C8A@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:53:29 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor wrote: > > Howdy, > > I just read on Slashdot that Adobe has released beta versions of > FrameMaker and Distiller for Linux. I am in the process of downloading to > see if it runs fine under the compatibility layer now - beware the > FrameMaker download is 23 MB! Distiller is set to be released in Q1 of > 2000. > > http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/fmlinux.html > If you have any luck with this let me know. I downloaded it earlier this week and started playing with it for a few minutes. It looks like at a minimum there's going to be some shell script diffs to make this thing go. My office is moving their manuals to FrameMaker and it would thrill me to no end if I could get away with running FrameMaker under FreeBSD instead of WinNT. If you need someone to help test stuff/ideas on this I'd be happy to. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 13:11:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3483C156C2 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17110; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:11:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:11:38 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Joseph Scott Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux In-Reply-To: <38595149.5CAA9C8A@owp.csus.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Joseph, On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > If you have any luck with this let me know. I downloaded it > earlier this week and started playing with it for a few minutes. It > looks like at a minimum there's going to be some shell script diffs to > make this thing go. Have you gotten it to install? The shell script doesn't find the FMHOME directory it appears and I haven't had any time to futz w/ it at all - too busy grading finals and assigning grades. That said my shell script abilities aren't exactly world-renowned. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 13:19:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60037156BB for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29588; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38595765.14B019F3@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:19:33 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor wrote: > > Hi Joseph, > > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > If you have any luck with this let me know. I downloaded it > > earlier this week and started playing with it for a few minutes. It > > looks like at a minimum there's going to be some shell script diffs to > > make this thing go. > > Have you gotten it to install? The shell script doesn't find the FMHOME > directory it appears and I haven't had any time to futz w/ it at all - > too busy grading finals and assigning grades. That said my shell script > abilities aren't exactly world-renowned. :-) > Nope, and I just came across an email in -current ( I think ) where it looks like someone may have gotten farther than either of us, but it's still having problems. Shell scripting, one of those things I've avoided when ever possible :-) I ran into the same problem you did. I started playing with the install scripts, but I got pulled away to work on other stuff. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 13:34: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607C1156A4 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mvfx.com) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31606 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA73643 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:34:00 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux Message-ID: <19991216133400.A73238@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <38595765.14B019F3@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38595765.14B019F3@owp.csus.edu> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Have you gotten it to install? The shell script doesn't find the FMHOME > > directory it appears and I haven't had any time to futz w/ it at all - > > too busy grading finals and assigning grades. That said my shell script > > abilities aren't exactly world-renowned. :-) I and a colleague independently fixed the script but we both get: /home/dan/FM556_linux/bin/linuxm.glibc2.i386/maker: error in loading shared libraries : undefined symbol: __register_frame_info This was using both 3.2 and 3.3-RELEASE with the latest linux compatibility. The symbol is defined in some of the dso's but is undefined in the executable itself. Any ideas? -- Dan Piponi Head of R&D Manex Visual EFfects http://www.mvfx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 13:54: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527FD15665 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14675 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:53:37 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.19991216223920.00c40470@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:44:21 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: [OT] 64M recognized as 16M In-Reply-To: References: <87emcmhmjo.fsf@main.wgaf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 16.12.99 -0600, you wrote: >On 16 Dec 1999, Arcady Genkin wrote: > >> David Scheidt writes: >>=20 >> >=20 >> > Add=20 >> > options MAXMEM=3D"(96*1024)" >> >=20 >> > to your kernel config, assuming it is 96 MB of RAM you have in the= box. >> > This is a common problem on older boxes with lots of memory. >>=20 >> I must have been unclear in my original post. It's the BIOS that >> doesn't recognize the RAM in the first place. The memory count on >> power-up only goes to 16M. > >What does the OS report? They are not the same thing. MAXMEM tells the >kernel how much memory is in the box, and to ignore what the bios tells it. >Try it. You'll like it. Hi! Ok, a symptom often seen with a mixture of old/new SDRAM-components and chipsets. In old days, there were different organisation of modules possible. 2bank/4bank modules appeared. Also the chip size organization has become bigger, with the new 64 MBit chips available. Back in VX days it was different. So the mobo simply recognized the stick as 1/4th as big as it really is. Same symptoms you see in old 486 boards if you pop in a 8-chip module of PS/2 RAM- they tell you that they only see 4 MB of it, due to different bank organisation. Try flashing a new BIOS, sometimes it will help, otherwise get another (older, PC66) stick of RAM or a new board... ;-( Regards Olaf Hoyer=20 - - - - - - - -=20 Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU) Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20 da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20 auch in dich hinein. (Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 14: 4: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED88157E4 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:03:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17373; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:03:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:03:37 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Dan Piponi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux In-Reply-To: <19991216133400.A73238@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Dan Piponi wrote: > I and a colleague independently fixed the script but we both get: > /home/dan/FM556_linux/bin/linuxm.glibc2.i386/maker: error in loading > shared libraries : undefined symbol: __register_frame_info Can you post your script patches? It looks like you're using the glibc2 version - I downloaded the plain ol' libc version - maybe that will work. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 14:23:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82146155B6 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id XAA26596; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:11:26 +0100 (CET) Received: by theatre.sax.de (8.9.3/8.6.12-s1) id WAA14923; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:23:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:23:55 +0100 From: Martin Welk To: Agent Drek Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Message-ID: <19991216222355.B13659@theatre.sax.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from drek@MonsterByMistake.Com on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 11:45:20AM -0500 Organization: Private UUCP/Usenet site. X-Phone: +49 3731 458867 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 11:45:20AM -0500, Agent Drek wrote: > The only time I've been *had* by a company for SCSI drives is when we > bought an AVID. The super special AVID drives are just SCSI drives > rigged so that the software on the mac knows that they came > from AVID...unfortunately it is part of one's contract when buying those (...) In 1993 I worked for a company that used two Altos machines - x86 based Unix machines with most of the needed chips on a large mainboard, own bus specificiations, many serial ports, SCSI onboard and so on. Those machines ran Altos System V Release 3.1, came with at least 8 mb of memory, 170 mb disks and 8 serial ports (386 Series 600) and we had one of these and another with 16 serial ports, 330 mb disk and Ethernet (386 Series 1000). We enhanced the '600 to the same equipment the '1000 had (both had also Archive 150 mb tape drives). Altos also wanted people to buy their hard disks, although they really never tried to tell people that those were not bought from others (no special firmware, no special labels, just a kind of ``Altos approve- ment'') - and 1 gbyte cost about 5000 DEM that time, not including VAT, and I think it was bought 94 or 95, I don't remember. However, this disk has (*) Seagate labels, but original Imprimis firmware - it was the time when Seagate bought some hard disk manufacturers. Okay, what the heck does all this have to do with FreeBSD? A simple thing: this disk made problems and didn't work properly, and I wanted to know why. So I called some people and go to know that all of Altos' modification was some special data at the beginning of the disk! I had those ``field diagnostics'' disk (FDX) and a necessary password, but this didn't reformat a new drive - they didn't even trust their technicians, I guess :-) So I put the drive into my first PC with FreeBSD (okay, than it was at least 1994, more 1995, because 1.1-RELEASE came out in 1994) and copied the first sectors of the disk to a file using dd. I wrote the same data to another disk I wanted to use in the Altos machine for a while and voila - that FDX told me, that this was a valid disk but some disk data were corrupted (sector count and such things) - it repaired the data and from then it worked :-) (The reason why I built the disk into a PC was that the Altos O. S. went to sleep when those disk trouble happened - the FreeBSD kernel gave me more useful information :-) ) (*) I still have this ancient disk here, it's 5.25" full height, heavy, and becomes very hot when used, is loud and slow and only SCSI-1 standard :-) (In the summer, it keeps the door open...) Some days ago, a collegue at work used it to bring up a -CURRENT system on a new AMD Athlon/600 based server machine, because the 18 gb LVD drive hadn't reached us - he built FreeBSD on a 100 mbit/s NFS mounted disk, because it was faster than the Imprimis one :-) Good night (at least here and now), Martin -- /| /| | /| / ,,You know, there's a lot of opportunities, / |/ | artin |/ |/ elk if you're knowing to take them, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, Freiberg/Saxony, Germany if there aren't you can make them, mw@sax.de / mw@theatre.sax.de make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 14:43:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E915214FCD for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mvfx.com) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA34966 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA74588 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:43:41 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux Message-ID: <19991216144341.A74416@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <19991216133400.A73238@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Re: Adobe supports linux, Brett Taylor stated: > Can you post your script patches? It looks like you're using the glibc2 > version - I downloaded the plain ol' libc version - maybe that will work. Hmmm...I don't see a libc version anywhere! What's the URL? On looking more closely at the script I see there's no need to patch it, just set FMARCH to linuxm.glibc2.i386 before running bin/maker to make it skip guessing your architecture. Incidentally the other executables appear to contain the same undefined symbol and yet the linker doesn't complain when they run (eg. djpeg which I guess is an image format converter). -- Dan Piponi Head of R&D Manex Visual Effects http://www.mvfx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 18:41:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1A514E65 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01069; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:41:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:41:55 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Dan Piponi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adobe supports linux In-Reply-To: <19991216144341.A74416@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > Hmmm...I don't see a libc version anywhere! What's the URL? On > looking more closely at the script I see there's no need to patch > it, just set FMARCH to linuxm.glibc2.i386 before running bin/maker > to make it skip guessing your architecture. Hi - I guess this is what I downloaded - I thought I remembered downloading an old version but .... > Incidentally the other executables appear to contain the same > undefined symbol and yet the linker doesn't complain when they run > (eg. djpeg which I guess is an image format converter). djpeg/cjpeg etc are bundled in (as are pnm/ppm tools). I do get the same error you're seeing: ./demomaker: error in loading shared libraries : undefined symbol: __register_frame_info Hmmmm... annoying. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 19: 0:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D1714FF1 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-235.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.235]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA27161 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:00:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19007 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:50:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912170250.UAA19007@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-reply-to: Message from Jamie Bowden of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:35:16 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:50:33 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > trying to put a generic SCSI drive into an SGI system several years > > ago. It was a struggle, because they used special mounting brackets > > and a special connector, trying to make it look as if you HAD to > > buy the drive from them at 4X the going price. But it was a plain > > old SCSI drive, and you could tell which brand by looking at the > > mechanical design. > > Sorry Brett, but this is just wrong. SGI uses mounting sleds that only > work in their machines, but so does everyone else. The connectors are all > standard 50pin, 68pin, or SCA. The sleds are available from SGI without the drive. Seems like $225 for an Indigo sled was SGI's price back in 1996. Used SGI resellers sell plenty. And 3rd parties make clones. While SGI's SCSI sleds are nothing exotic, they are often incompatible between various SGI models. And nothing like the box/sled Clariion uses to house their RAID drives. In this case the firmware on the IBM drive is non-standard locking out commodity replacements, and eliminating the salvage value of used Clariion drives for other purposes. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 19:31:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0C01508A for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:31:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24516; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:30:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991216203003.0405b620@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:30:40 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:35 AM 12/16/1999 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >Sorry Brett, but this is just wrong. SGI uses mounting sleds that only >work in their machines, but so does everyone else. The connectors are all >standard 50pin, 68pin, or SCA. They weren't on THAT machine. Perhaps they've given up on that strategy now. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 19:38:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2F915216 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-235.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.235]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA12517 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:38:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19602 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:38:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912170338.VAA19602@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Applixware is shipping! From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:38:15 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Walnut Creek CDROM - Email Orders > To: dkelly@hiwaay.net > Subject: WC-CDROM Order:Confirmed > Cc: orders@cdrom.com > > Greetings! > This is an automatically generated message to let you know the status > of the order/request you placed with us here at Walnut Creek CDROM. [...] > Product Description Ordered Price Price > > Applixware w/book :Dec-99 1 1-To Ship 99.95 99.95 > -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 19:51:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5333F14D3F for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24633; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:51:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991216205021.00cbd190@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:51:13 -0700 To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Applixware is shipping! In-Reply-To: <199912170338.VAA19602@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is Walnut Creek CD-ROM the only source for ApplixWare for FreeBSD? I'd hope it would be available from any vendor that also sold FreeBSD. --Brett Glass At 08:38 PM 12/16/1999 , David Kelly wrote: > > From: Walnut Creek CDROM - Email Orders > > To: dkelly@hiwaay.net > > Subject: WC-CDROM Order:Confirmed > > Cc: orders@cdrom.com > > > > Greetings! > > This is an automatically generated message to let you know the status > > of the order/request you placed with us here at Walnut Creek CDROM. >[...] > > Product Description Ordered Price Price > > > > Applixware w/book :Dec-99 1 1-To Ship 99.95 99.95 > > > >-- >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net >===================================================================== >The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its >capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 16 23:25:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38A4156E2 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id GAA02640; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:55:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA27791; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:07:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wilko) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:07:00 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Doug White Cc: Anthony Kimball , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sysinstall: is it really at the end of its lifecycle? Message-ID: <19991217000658.A1063@yedi.iaf.nl> References: <14424.37823.671739.167701@avalon.east> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 08:55:14AM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD yedi.iaf.nl 3.3-STABLE FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 08:55:14AM -0800, Doug White wrote: > Note redirect to -chat. > > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > > > > System Housekeeping Advanced Management Utility ? > > I think SHAMU is copyrighted by SeaWorld anyway. :) IIRC SeaWorld in Ca has pinguins stashed away behind a glass wall (sponsored by Frigidaire). Fits well ;-) -- Wilko Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands - The FreeBSD Project WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 2: 2: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5154215008 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 02:01:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (patr364-a126.otenet.gr [195.167.112.222]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06342 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:02:05 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 7352 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Dec 1999 02:46:44 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:46:44 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: John Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K Message-ID: <19991217044644.A7320@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 10:49:43PM -0500, John wrote: | Hey all, | | I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it | will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main | servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote | offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have: Your best chance to having them at least thinking about what you're suggesting is always to show them some 'real' thing; i.e. with the information that you presented here, design some network topology diagram with the BSD boxen and the other computers neatly arranged and a small description of what each one can do. IT managers tend to be sensitive on direct monetary earnings too. Show them how a single BSD box can be a router and firewall, and how another one can be a mail and web server at the same time. Take care to present in clear and very illustrative terms how a BSD box can take the load of several NT boxes, and still function like a charm. On machines where security is a concern, present the relative merits of each operating system (NT vs. BSD), and try to be honest. Do not start a quick and dirty `NT is unsafe' raving thing, because you'll get them to be defensive right from the start -- and that's where you lose. | I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts? | | Here's the needs: | - Ease of maintenance | - GREAT stability | - High security `Ease' of maintenance is something that means different things to technical staff, and higher IT management. It's all a matter of how one defines the word `ease'. Do not fail to note that for someone trained on BSD, NT is not as easy as one might initially assume. Of course, this is still true the other way round. Stability is also something that you need to present with actual case studies. Thank goodness, the servers of .freebsd.org are good starting points, and those who are using FreeBSD for their servers (see the relevant links in http://www.freebsd.org/) will provide you with more data to stand up to your point. As far as security is concerned, I do not know of any real-world cases but I'm relatively new to FreeBSD (since I've been using it for about 5 or 6 months now) and I'm sorry but I can't help in any way. | If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is | supposed to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts | file is for. I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. Do not in any circumstances over-emphasize that. It will probably get them thinking that they can not find someone with adequate knowledge of BSD if you are later going somewhere else, and that is the same as saying that they will be locked in BSD with no one to support them. This is not a good thing at all, IMHO. | My concern is that they install an MS network now, and spend an | eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis, with | the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 --> | win95). This is a very good point, and you should not fail to explain this fact to your managers. Make sure you make them understand that FreeBSD does not make one go through this insane upgrade-once-a-week race, and that it can work for a looong time without you having to spend too much time on upgrades. This will give you that little extra bit of time to concentrace on more important things than simple upgrades, and they will probably quickly realize why this is important. | My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented | FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, | b) the first major crash which will probably be a hardware failure, and not just a patch that made internet explorer unstable,if not unusable... | c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent need to update | RSAREF2), which is usually published and fixed as soon as possible... | or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're running 3.x-stable, and | a new port comes out that they REALLY need that only runs on the | newer versions. which is a truly rare thing to happen, unless you have a constantly changing environment, and if it happens is as easy to fix as a reinstall of everything just because windows 2016 does not run on windows 2001... | Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might | find more information? Try the sites of those who actually use FreeBSD until now. You can find many links for that in http://www.freebsd.org/ [sorry for not providing a more direct link, I'm offline now that I'm writing]. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 9: 2:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEA915743 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29537; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:02:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991217100122.03f97d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:02:07 -0700 To: Wilko Bulte , Doug White From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: sysinstall: is it really at the end of its lifecycle? Cc: Anthony Kimball , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991217000658.A1063@yedi.iaf.nl> References: <14424.37823.671739.167701@avalon.east> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:07 PM 12/16/1999 , Wilko Bulte wrote: >IIRC SeaWorld in Ca has pinguins stashed away behind a glass wall >(sponsored by Frigidaire). Fits well ;-) I'm surprised that they (and Linux) aren't sponsored by Kool cigarettes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 9:42:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D58514A1A for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00146 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:42:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991217104045.03d8b870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:42:02 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Quote from Steve Ballmer of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991217102429.03d8ce30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Software should get bigger every year. --Steve Ballmer (See http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/qa121700.htm) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 10:21:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBEF15129 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11z204-0008ml-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:21:08 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11130; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:21:07 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:21:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quote from Steve Ballmer of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991217104045.03d8b870@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I actually saw an article on CNet just a couple of days ago on M$'s plan to take over the net. I forget some of the details, but between Passport, ecommerce wares, so-called thin-client support, and other details, they think they will be as successful taking over the net as they have taking over the OS market. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 14:57:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531D514DBE for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:57:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from tech138 (unverified [216.3.179.138]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:05:38 -0500 Message-ID: <00cd01bf48e2$555c8a00$8ab303d8@cityguide.com> From: "Chris Lynch" To: Subject: subscribe Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:59:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 15:12:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63B414D6A for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@ukug.uk.FreeBSD.org) Received: from [212.126.148.45] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 11z6Xh-000614-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:12:10 +0000 Content-Length: 557 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:12:12 -0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Boothman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Porting Unix Software Cc: freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I've been asked if there is any books that I'd like for Christmas, and after a look around Amazon, I wondered if any one has any experience with the O'Reilly book "Porting Unix Software" by our very own Greg Lehey. The date of publication is June 1995, so I wonder if it still has any worthwhile relevence to porting Applications to FreeBSD today. Any opinions would be appricated, especially Greg's! :-) Thanks. --- Andrew Boothman FreeBSD UK User Group http://ukug.uk.FreeBSD.org/~andrew/ http://ukug.uk.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 16:47:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C6114D9E for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:47:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04047; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:46:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991217174521.03d8d8c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:46:04 -0700 To: Andrew Boothman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Porting Unix Software Cc: freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:12 PM 12/17/1999 , Andrew Boothman wrote: >Hi! > >I've been asked if there is any books that I'd like for Christmas, and after a >look around Amazon, I wondered if any one has any experience with the O'Reilly >book "Porting Unix Software" by our very own Greg Lehey. > >The date of publication is June 1995, so I wonder if it still has any >worthwhile relevence to porting Applications to FreeBSD today. > >Any opinions would be appricated, especially Greg's! :-) I'm sure that Greg will say that it's a horrible book and that you should disregard all of the information in it. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 17:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E406614DA9 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:23:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11z8aj-000FHB-00; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:23:25 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13438; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:23:25 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:23:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Cc: somers@adm.njit.edu Subject: windows debate Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 18:10:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5017814F54 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 20768 invoked from network); 18 Dec 1999 02:10:42 -0000 Received: from userbf27.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.142.48) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 1999 02:10:42 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA01068; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:10:37 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:10:37 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: Andrew Boothman , chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: Porting Unix Software Message-ID: <19991218021037.A323@marder-1> References: <4.2.0.58.19991217174521.03d8d8c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991217174521.03d8d8c0@localhost> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:46:04PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:12 PM 12/17/1999 , Andrew Boothman wrote: > >Hi! > > > >I've been asked if there is any books that I'd like for Christmas, and after a > >look around Amazon, I wondered if any one has any experience with the O'Reilly > >book "Porting Unix Software" by our very own Greg Lehey. > > > >The date of publication is June 1995, so I wonder if it still has any > >worthwhile relevence to porting Applications to FreeBSD today. > > > >Any opinions would be appricated, especially Greg's! :-) > > I'm sure that Greg will say that it's a horrible book and that > you should disregard all of the information in it. ;-) > Mr. Glass, you have a wicked sense of humour. > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 18:51:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B569F14CC6 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:51:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 24643 invoked from network); 18 Dec 1999 02:51:10 -0000 Received: from userbf27.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.142.48) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 1999 02:51:10 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA01206; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:51:07 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:51:07 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Andrew Boothman Cc: chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: Porting Unix Software Message-ID: <19991218025107.B323@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:12:12PM -0000, Andrew Boothman wrote: > Hi! > > I've been asked if there is any books that I'd like for Christmas, and after a > look around Amazon, I wondered if any one has any experience with the O'Reilly > book "Porting Unix Software" by our very own Greg Lehey. > > The date of publication is June 1995, so I wonder if it still has any > worthwhile relevence to porting Applications to FreeBSD today. > > Any opinions would be appricated, especially Greg's! :-) > I'd go for it. I have a copy myself. As long as you realize that it isn't a "Porting *nix to FreeBSD" book (in fact FreeBSD hardly gets a mention) then you'll like it. It is full of useful info about the different *nix flavours. To quote the final paragraph of the Preface ".....who gently persuaded me to write a real book about porting, rather then just presenting the reader with a brain dump" > Thanks. > > --- > Andrew Boothman > FreeBSD UK User Group > http://ukug.uk.FreeBSD.org/~andrew/ > http://ukug.uk.FreeBSD.org/ > > > ------ FreeBSD UK User's Group - Mailing List ------ > http://listserver.uk.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-users -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 18:53:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A590B14DF7 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:53:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA32892; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:23:35 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:23:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Andrew Boothman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: Porting Unix Software Message-ID: <19991218132335.D1108@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 17 December 1999 at 23:12:12 -0000, Andrew Boothman wrote: > > I've been asked if there is any books that I'd like for Christmas, > and after a look around Amazon, I wondered if any one has any > experience with the O'Reilly book "Porting Unix Software" by our > very own Greg Lehey. > > The date of publication is June 1995, so I wonder if it still has > any worthwhile relevence to porting Applications to FreeBSD today. > > Any opinions would be appricated, especially Greg's! :-) I suppose that if I were to write a second edition, I'd change a number of things, but they'd mainly be in the area of "how do I get the sources?". There isn't much mention of FreeBSD in there (none of the Ports Collection, which I didn't know when I wrote the book), nor very much of Linux. In a new edition I'd give them more time. And, of course, the operating systems have changed somewhat since then. On the other hand, there's a lot of solid background in the book that you won't find anywhere else, and I refer to it myself quite a bit. Looking round at the mess on my table, I see about 10 books, including PUS. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 19:32:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D25014CA6 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:32:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.8]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMX00JPC362RP@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:32:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01386; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:23:56 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:23:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: windows debate In-reply-to: To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat , somers@adm.njit.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Only a couple;) On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business >tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs >in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that Gate's "genius" is only the stupidity and arrogance of IBM (along with the arrogance of Digital Research.) As near as I can recall, the only thing M$ created was a version of Basic. Everything else, he bought. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) >gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into >windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use Gates was brutal in his tactics -- not brilliant. He bought the brilliance, as well. Everything that constitutes windows was "borrowed" from someone else and butchered into the twisted mess that is "Windows." >computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that >gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap That much, I think is true. Thanks to the sweetheart deal with IBM. Although I would hardly call it "cheap" anymore;) I would, though, ask why he's more interested in marketing skill than reality. >enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that That isn't true. He rode in on IBM's coattails. If IBM hadn't been what they were -- and still are, Gates would have had no credibilty at all. It's a testimony, which Gates correctly read, to the gullibility of the average consumer. Gates has shown all the street skills of the average pimp. He just applied it to a different whore. >crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that >gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought Sure, Gates did a good job. He brought poor, misapplied technology to millions who never knew they needed or wanted such a misapplication of good ideas and still can't figure out how to apply it. He sold the "emporor's new clothes." It never ceases to amaze me that, normally rational people who wouldn't accept such a shoddy product in real life, are willing to accept such shoddy performance simply because they've been convinced that a) it's normal in "high tech", b) it's the only way the average individual can be modern and c) the only way they can be compatible. Ask your brother-in-law why he didn't buy a Ford (or Chevy or Dodge -- what ever he didn't buy.) Why should there be a different standard for software? How would he feel if the only car he could drive was a ? >the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the >US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? Gates didn't bring us anywhere. The consumer and their choices brought us where we are. That will change, as it has in the past. Gates was the first individual who understood how to punch the consumer's hot button with "high tech." As more vendors learn how to punch the same button and more consumers get tired of the M$ crap, more will look for alternatives. Of course, more will also look for less complicated means of convenience -- which is the future of the current trend. Right now, _every_ vendor out there seems to be in mortal combat trying to get their idea of the "best" way into the minds of the consumer. Better ideas than M$ existed in the past, and the still do today. The redeeming grace is that M$ is suffering the same hubris as IBM and as did Digital Research. Mr. Gates hasn't been humble enough to learn that lesson. I suspect M$ will suffer the same fate in the near future. I predict that M$ is only a temporary annoyance;) If your brother-in-law wants to cast his lot with a company that is practicing what, in the past, has proven a losing proposition, the best he can hope for is relearning another new world and an endless chase of "compatibility." And, no, I don't think any form of Unix will be the answer, though, I think Unix, of some form will last the longest of any. This is only my opinion. Take it for whatever it may be worth. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 20: 8:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1C515119 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:08:19 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jonathon McKitrick" , "freebsd-chat" Subject: RE: windows debate Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:08:18 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf490d$84164e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-reply-to: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business > tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs > in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that > gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into > windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use > computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that > gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap > enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that > crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that > gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought > the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the > US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? Well, the points that I most disagree with are: 1) Gates really did not do much to bring the prices of operating systems down. What he did do was bundle features into operating systems, bringing the total price of the operating system plus features down, but there's no reason to think that this wouldn't have happened without Gates. Look at FreeBSD's feature set over the same time period. 2) Much of the ease-of-use that Windows brings is mythical. Windows computers are really not that easy to use. And they're especially hard to troubleshoot and maintain. Making computers easier to use just allows less competent people to get into more trouble. How much lost productivity is due to this? (Ever heard of the productivity paradox?) 3) The computer industry's economic position is more or less inevitable, unless you want to credit Microsoft for the entire information revolution. If anything deserves credit for the information revolution, it's the cheap, low-cost availability of computing power and the explosion of the Internet. Gates/Microsoft has very little to do with either of these factors. 4) The US's economic growth (in the information sector at least) is due to far more than just Gates/Microsoft. Intel, for example, has more to do with it. I do agree, though, that Gates deserves some credit for localizing portions of that growth to the US -- but let's not forget, Microsoft is not even in Silicon Valley. It's hard to credit the explosion of productivity and development in Northern California to Bill Gates. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 22: 3: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF86A14C81 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:03:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@C35728-B.almda1.sfba.home.com) Received: from C35728-B.almda1.sfba.home.com (c35728-b.almda1.sfba.home.com [24.7.201.244]) by mvfx.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA71945 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@C35728-B.almda1.sfba.home.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by C35728-B.almda1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA90693 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:01:32 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: windows debate Message-ID: <19991217220132.A90564@c35728-b.almda1.sfba.home.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:23:25AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > He argues that > gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into > windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use > computers. Windows is not easy to use. For those who didn't grow up using computers they are phenomenally difficult to use. Few people that I know that are older than me (in my thirties somewhere) are able to install and troubleshoot a PC themselves to the point where they can, say, browse the web and send email (my wife's father just went for two weeks without being able to connect to his ISP. He didn't realise that when he typed in his password and *'s came up instead of the keys he was typing that it wasn't because the keyboard was faulty. He had to type in his password because Windows likes to spontaneously forget ISP passwords from time to time). Compare that with using a telephone, microwave or even a Nintendo 64. Those younger than me seem to have grown up with computers and hence they are adept with Windows *despite* how difficult it is. -- Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 17 23:40: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B4C14ECE for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:40:00 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991218014036.00979d80@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:40:36 -0600 To: freebsd-chat From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: windows debate Cc: somers@adm.njit.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 18-12-1999 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business >tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs >in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that >gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into >windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use >computers. That he is brilliant is fairly clear. But as my forensic psychology professor used to say, no one is more dangerous than a highly intelligent sociopath. And no, he did not give people what they wanted. He gave people what he wanted. I recently got a service call from a woman whose Windows 98 computer kept locking up. While there, I mentioned FreeBSD and that she should consider it. Almost apologetically I said it uses CLI rather than GUI. Her eyes brightened: She had started computing with MS DOS in the pre-Windows era, and missed the simplicity of CLI. So just because Bill Gates claims he gave people easy-to-use computers does not make it so. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 0:19:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (liv3-3.hamilton.idirect.com [209.161.208.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75E614E11 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01154; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:22:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:22:26 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat , somers@adm.njit.edu Subject: Re: windows debate Message-ID: <19991218032226.B337@spirit.jaded.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:23:25AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business | tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs | in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that | gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into | windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use | computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that | gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap | enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that | crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that | gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought | the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the | US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? Windows was nothing new, really. I am in no means a mac advocate myself, but they seemed to have beat Microsoft to the whole "windows idea" by at least a few years. The difference in my eyes wasn't superior technology, it was marketing. -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Cure for global warming: One giant heatsink and dual fans!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 1:41:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A262214A2B for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:41:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991218034229.009b3100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:42:29 -0600 To: "freebsd-chat" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: windows debate In-Reply-To: <000601bf490d$84164e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:08 17-12-1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > 2) Much of the ease-of-use that Windows brings is mythical. Windows >computers are really not that easy to use. And they're especially hard to >troubleshoot and maintain. And absolute pain to debug! I have been working on some Photoshop plugins for Windows. I cannot load them to the debugger because I'd have to wade through all of Photoshop's code (which I have no source code for) before getting into my plugin. The only way to debug it is by deliberately causing an exception, which makes Windows offer me to debug the code, and it starts the debugger at the point where the exception happened. What a way to work! Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 10: 5:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3586714FE6 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 385B438E-1D75, Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:19:26 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not use this address) X-Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:19:26 +0000 Subject: Re: windows debate Message-ID: <385B438E.1D75@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:19:26 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > adept with Windows *despite* how difficult it is. Agreed. I contend that Windows is more difficult to learn/manage than FreeBSD; I (have to) use Windows at work, and find it a never ending source of frustration, whilst at home I use FBSD. (I'll be putting FBSD onto the next machine that our manager gets us.) Managing Windows makes writing JCL look simple! Or to put it more plainly, Windows is simply too arcane, as well as being too unstable and bug-riddden. With Unix, and also with those old IBM OS's, the information you need is readily available -- without having to trawl the bookshops. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . j @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 11:13:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A71914DBC for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:13:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-49.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.49]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA09866 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA96732 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912181913.NAA96732@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: windows debate In-reply-to: Message from Dan Moschuk of "Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:22:26 EST." <19991218032226.B337@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:37 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Moschuk writes: > Windows was nothing new, really. I am in no means a mac advocate myself, > but they seemed to have beat Microsoft to the whole "windows idea" by > at least a few years. The difference in my eyes wasn't superior technology, > it was marketing. The 1984 Mac and current Mac interfaces are remarkably similar. You can't say that for Windows 3.1 to Win95, much less for DOS to NT. I think the original Mac user interface was very well conceived. By 1984 Unix shells and tool interfaces were also very mature. Neither has changed much since then, only gotten better. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 11:13:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5A314F3C for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:13:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-49.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.49]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA26590 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA96741 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912181913.NAA96741@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "freebsd-chat" From: David Kelly Subject: Re: windows debate In-reply-to: Message from "David Schwartz" of "Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:08:18 PST." <000601bf490d$84164e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:13:42 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > 2) Much of the ease-of-use that Windows brings is mythical. Windows > computers are really not that easy to use. And they're especially hard to > troubleshoot and maintain. Making computers easier to use just allows less > competent people to get into more trouble. How much lost productivity is due > to this? (Ever heard of the productivity paradox?) I agree. If Windows was so easy to use, how come there is such a large demand for MSCE's (or whatever the letters)? Why isn't there a similar proportional demand of same for Macintosh? When Windows gets wonked I find FDISK.EXE is the fastest way to get running again. My sometimes-NT machine is bitching about several things failing at start. All seem to have something to do with Microsoft-style networking and the fact somebody put an NT Server on our net after my machine was up and running stand-alone. Also Dr. Watson chimes in complaining it can't do something. The event log isn't helping. Thought I'd try to re-install on top of an installation, BSOD. On another machine the boss's wife saw the choice of NT Workstation 4.0 or same with SVGA. Well, SGVA sounded better than without, so she chose that. It deleted the ATI Rage drivers and ran in awful SVGA mode. Even on reboot to non-SVGA. I found the drivers, eventually. That is the one example I can think of where I've actually been able to repair a broken NT installation. I've learned before, I've learned again, should have started repair of my machine with FDISK. My FreeBSD partition needs to be bigger anyhow. And my copy of Applixware is in the mail! -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 16:32:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C2D14D95 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25733; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:31:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:31:14 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the amiga was nice, coming out of Commodore land myself, I was reluctant to give up my commodores for PC's so I understand, I really do =) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >Why must you sneakernet? > I have a laptop.. i use dad's printer or one at work. (windows, of course) > > >And I'm only a young whippersnapper of 20 myself :) > I wish i had switched to BSD when i was younger instead of refusing to > give up my amiga. I feel so behind the times for my age. > > > -jm > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 16:36:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A4F1514F for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:36:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11zUKa-000Lm5-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:36:12 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22959; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:36:12 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:36:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Pat Lynch Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: >Well, the amiga was nice, coming out of Commodore land myself, I was >reluctant to give up my commodores for PC's so I understand, I really do >=) At the time, amiga was *so* advanced in graphics, sound, memory management, and was even C/Unix based! Actually BCPL, but close enough ;-) -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 18: 4:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A683515153 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rage@cyberwitch.org) Received: from localhost (rage@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26229; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:03:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:03:03 -0500 (EST) From: Rhiannon X-Sender: rage@bytor.rush.net To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Pat Lynch , "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All About People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >And I'm only a young whippersnapper of 20 myself :) > I wish i had switched to BSD when i was younger instead of refusing to > give up my amiga. I feel so behind the times for my age. > > > -jm well, when i was your age we had these two frozen juice cans linked together with string, which gave us a connection of at least 300 baud. then on about the early 70s, someone got smart and switched to big industrial sized cans and twine..and to our amazement it connected at 2400 baud and ran BSD. well ok that's mostly bs, but the point is that you're never too old or too young for that matter to learn about the BSD. i started on an apple IIgs in 1988, and was introduced to linux in 1996, followed in quick succession by freebsd. ..and i'm only a young whippersnapper of 51 myself ;) lor ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ how do you know she's a witch ? * * * rage@cyberwitch.org rage@rush.net rage@free.bsdunix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 18 19:12:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8310A14D86 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uncleben@mindspring.com) Received: from rohan (user-2inij5c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.76.172]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07635 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:12:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991218221755.007a1010@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: uncleben@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:17:55 -0500 To: freebsd-chat From: Ben Pitzer Subject: Re: windows debate In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 AM 12/18/99 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business >tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs >in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that >gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into >windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use >computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that >gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap >enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that >crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that >gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought >the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the >US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? Greetings, I suppose that something like this is not the best way to come out of my lurking state, but I'm inspired here. Reading the other posts, so far, I'm tempted to put myself up as flamebait, and pray that the people in this community would be charitible enough to refrain from toasting me too badly. In essense, I say that your brother-in-law is right. We can admit that Gates is a marketing genius, and not admit that he's a 'good person' or 'a boon to the IT revolution'. He did convince an entire nation that even Joe Schmoe on the street could own and use a computer. Not only that, but also make it an invaluable part of their lives. Steve Jobs didn't do that, I'm sorry to say. Neither did any IBM exec, or any individual hardware manufacturer. Let's face it, you don't need to know hardware to own and run a computer. Bill Gates convince the masses that they could learn the /software/ necessary to do that, however. Now already I can hear the low, distant roar of keyboards clicking away producing flames. But I'm gonna put this very clearly: I'M NOT DEFENDING BILL GATES IN ANY WAY. Look, he got the computers into the homes, but he created a crappy product. That's it. Computers are not easy to use. They're not. Period, and I don't care who you are. Some of us are blessed with the ability to understand and inherently 'get' computers, OSes, and hardware. Most folks don't, without prolonged exposure. And many don't get that. Look, the average home computer user is not expected to fix his own computer, which is why people like me got our jobs to start, doing tech support. We know how stupid users seem, but the more realistic and wiser among us know that they aren't necessarily stupid, but just in the midst of a learning process where so many false legends and misconceptions abound that it amazes me that any average person can get it at all. Put plainly, I can't imagine the computer that /is/ easy to use. Jonathan, in all, your brother-in-law is right about Gates' economic impact. He undercut Apple's prices and technology, and convinced the world that his product was better than Jobs' product. Was he right? Does it matter? He got computers into homes, and now it's the job of people like us, who /do/ know about computers, and OSes, to prove to the user community that there's a better product out there. Please, let's not be so arrogant as to believe that we are the average computer users. We are by far in the upper percentiles. The average computer user never heard of Linux until last week, and VA Linux Systems' spectacular IPO. Hell, the people who reported that on CNBC didn't even have any idea what Linux is (much less FreeBSD), and admitted it. THAT is the average computer user, and THAT is the person who can honestly realize what good, and what evil, Bill Gates and M$ have foisted on the public. M$ is not a good thing, but neither is it absolutely evil. We do ourselves a great disservice to put down every single thing that this company has done because we don't like the way it's done it. By doing that, we deprive ourselves of learning the means by which he did it, and using a measure of those means to right the wrongs that we perceive M$ to have done. I could go on for a long time, but I'll stop here. Take it or leave it. Just don't ignore it. Thanks for not deleting this before reading it fully. Regards, Ben Pitzer uncleben@mindspring.com "I would rather be ashes than dust. I would rather that my spark should burn out in a brilliant blaze than be stifled by dry-rot. I would rather be a superb meteorite, every atom of me in maginficent glow, than a sleepy, permanent planet. The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I will not waste my days by trying to prolong them. I will use my time." -Jack London To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 19 7:31:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290AF14F38 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id QAA16788 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:31:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from naddy@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27569; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:45:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:45:38 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Weisgerber Message-Id: <199912191245.NAA27569@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Also-Posted-To: list.freebsd.hackers Subject: Re: Cool little 100BaseTX switch - they're coming down in price References: <199912190410.UAA01049@apollo.backplane.com> <385C60FC.7613CB55@bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sergey Babkin wrote: > At work I've got experience with 32-port D-Link 10/100 switched > hub. It works fine except that it hangs occasionally (can be > reset by power-cycling). So we don't buy them any more. Also > at my pre-previous employer we had small 8-port 10Mpbs hubs from > D-Link and they had the same problem, so it seems to be a family > problem. I have a D-Link DSH-5 5-port 10/100 dualspeed hub here at home, and I'm reasonably happy with it. It certainly doesn't hang. One of the machines here has trouble negotiating a working 100Mbit/s link, but that's just as likely a problem of the Linux tulip driver. After a couple of months I put a drop of oil into the bearing of the cooling fan, which strongly suggested that treatment by the noises it was making. Somebody mentioned power supplies: Since I ordered the hub from the US but live in 230V-land, I had to experiment a bit with the transformers I had lying around. Eventually I ended up feeding the hub's power supply 120V/50Hz and it's happy with that. 100V/50Hz didn't work. This should move to -chat. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 19 7:40:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF8D15223 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:40:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11ziS3-0002T7-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:40:51 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26947; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:40:51 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:40:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Ben Pitzer Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: windows debate In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991218221755.007a1010@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Ben Pitzer wrote: >Jonathan, in all, your brother-in-law is right about Gates' economic >impact. He undercut Apple's prices and technology, and convinced the world >that his product was better than Jobs' product. Was he right? Does it >matter? He got computers into homes, and now it's the job of people like The one point i disagree with here is that HARDWARE prices, not OS prices got computers into homes. WIndows helped,but it was cheaper hardware that made them more accessible. And unfortunately, a poor OS then made them prettier, if not more usable to the average Joe. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 19 7:57:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id D48B214E62; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:57:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: uncleben@mindspring.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from Jonathon McKitrick on Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:40:51 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: windows debate Message-Id: <19991219155732.D48B214E62@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:57:32 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Ben Pitzer wrote: > > >Jonathan, in all, your brother-in-law is right about Gates' economic > >impact. He undercut Apple's prices and technology, and convinced the world > >that his product was better than Jobs' product. Was he right? Does it > >matter? He got computers into homes, and now it's the job of people like > > The one point i disagree with here is that HARDWARE prices, not OS prices > got computers into homes. WIndows helped,but it was cheaper hardware that > made them more accessible. And unfortunately, a poor OS then made them > prettier, if not more usable to the average Joe. Intel has done an incredible job of increasing the capabilities of their processors from year to year over the last 20+ years. the x86 has been an abomination from the beginning...back in the days of the 386, i was convinced that the day was soon approaching when Intel and therefore Microsoft would have to ditch the x86 instruction set. Then with eveyone having to replace their software a different better instruction set would have a chance against the huge installed base of machines. wrong. Intel has been unstoppable. So we are all still using the x86 instruction set (we will see what merced turns into and what instruction set gets used....). Intel has saved Gates from the horror of having to compete anew for customers. Its not Microsoft and Bill Gates, its Intel, the other makers of computer equipment and ideas from Xero PARC, Mac and everywhere else that Microsoft has used, often badly, to reach their current position. Now their announcement of vaporware is taken more seriously than shipping product from other companies. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 19 12: 4:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1E115179 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uncleben@mindspring.com) Received: from rohan (user-2iniid5.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.73.165]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02022 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:04:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991219151108.007fcc70@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: uncleben@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:11:08 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Ben Pitzer Subject: Re: windows debate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon, True, but what then made the PC platform more desirable than the Mac platform, for which hardware prices were also lower? The Mac GUI OS was far superior to the DOS command line for many average users when the hardware prices dropped. Much less daunting, at the least. And MUCH prettier. Regards, Ben Pitzer At 03:40 PM 12/19/99 +0000, you wrote: > >On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Ben Pitzer wrote: > >>Jonathan, in all, your brother-in-law is right about Gates' economic >>impact. He undercut Apple's prices and technology, and convinced the world >>that his product was better than Jobs' product. Was he right? Does it >>matter? He got computers into homes, and now it's the job of people like > >The one point i disagree with here is that HARDWARE prices, not OS prices >got computers into homes. WIndows helped,but it was cheaper hardware that >made them more accessible. And unfortunately, a poor OS then made them >prettier, if not more usable to the average Joe. > >-jm > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 19 14:59:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D07514D2F for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:59:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-164.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.164]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA11756 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:59:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA31113 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:47:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912192247.QAA31113@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Cool little 100BaseTX switch - they're coming down in price In-reply-to: Message from Christian Weisgerber of "Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:45:38 +0100." <199912191245.NAA27569@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:47:26 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber writes: > I have a D-Link DSH-5 5-port 10/100 dualspeed hub here at home, > and I'm reasonably happy with it. It certainly doesn't hang. This summer we purchased an Allied Telesyn 724i (I'm guessing as to exact name and P/N) at work. 24 port 10/100 unmanaged, built in AC PS. 19" rackmount size, about 1-1/2" high. Was $629 from http://www.warehouse.com/. Use of the rackmount ears is optional. The holes were drilled such that one could turn the ears 90 degrees. I did. And used the ears to mount it on the wall. Another nice touch was port 24 has a cross-over switch. Plugged in our Pipeline router using the cable Ascend/Lucent provided. No connect. Then flipped the switch and got connected. Other products do the same by providing two RJ-45 jacks, one wired each way. In the last several months the only incident I know of, an NT4SP4 machine lost its network connection. Unplug/replug its ethernet didn't help. Rebooting the NT machine cured the problem. Nobody was surprised. > After a couple of months I put a drop of oil into the bearing of > the cooling fan, which strongly suggested that treatment by the > noises it was making. I need to do that to ours (see above) as its making noises. I check it several times per week to make sure its still moving air. Has two small fans side by side. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 8:58:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from baynet.baynetworks.com (ns1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B87A15293 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thomma@BayNetworks.COM) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (h016b.s86b1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.1.107]) by baynet.baynetworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA04551; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com [134.177.110.46]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03217; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrera.engwest (carrera [134.177.160.237]) by fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14525; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by carrera.engwest (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA10145; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:57:53 -0800 To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Applixware is shipping! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:38:15 -0600" <199912170338.VAA19602@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <199912170338.VAA19602@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.92 on Emacs 19.28 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991220085753J.thomma@baynetworks.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:57:53 -0800 From: Tamiji Homma X-Dispatcher: imput version 971024 Lines: 5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mine was delivered on December 18th. Installed fine and I'm happy with I do not have to use M$ stuff any more at work. Tammy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 12:56:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F334915413 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:56:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12556; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:55:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA18565; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:55:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199912202055.NAA18565@harmony.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE is now available Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:45:47 PST." <199912201845.KAA01421@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <199912201845.KAA01421@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:55:58 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199912201845.KAA01421@zippy.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : Just in under the wire for the current millenium, I'm happy to announce What's your rush. You have 375 days or so before the current millenium is over. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 14:17:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 2046F15374; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:17:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: uncleben@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19991219151108.007fcc70@pop.mindspring.com> (message from Ben Pitzer on Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:11:08 -0500) Subject: Re: windows debate Message-Id: <19991220221708.2046F15374@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:17:08 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:11:08 -0500 > From: Ben Pitzer > > True, but what then made the PC platform more desirable than the Mac > platform, for which hardware prices were also lower? The Mac GUI OS was > far superior to the DOS command line for many average users when the > hardware prices dropped. Much less daunting, at the least. And MUCH > prettier. IBM....IBM backed the DOS box, published the BIOS to the XT and the AT. Clone makers duplicated the box at a greatly reduced price to teh end user. Businesses everywhere jumped on board (you never got fired for buying IBM) and created the market for DOS and Windows. Only later did users demand better functionality, and ease of use. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 17:53:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3708151D0 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05021; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:53:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991220185238.03e63ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:53:08 -0700 To: Ben Pitzer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: windows debate In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991219151108.007fcc70@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:11 PM 12/19/1999 , Ben Pitzer wrote: >True, but what then made the PC platform more desirable than the Mac >platform, for which hardware prices were also lower? False premise. The Mac sold at a premium. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 17:53:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6122614C31 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05016; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:53:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991220184940.03e5e490@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:51:47 -0700 To: Ben Pitzer , freebsd-chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: windows debate In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991218221755.007a1010@pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:17 PM 12/18/1999 , Ben Pitzer wrote: >In essense, I say that your brother-in-law is right. We can admit that >Gates is a marketing genius, Ah, but he's not. Didn't have to be. IBM made his product the de facto standard, and he didn't have to do any marketing at all! Microsoft's later success at marketing was mostly due to Pam Edstrom, not Gates. > Let's face it, you don't need to know hardware to own and >run a computer. Bill Gates convince the masses that they could learn the >/software/ necessary to do that, however. No, Steve Jobs did. But IBM's legacy made Gates the winner. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 21:16:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D6F1D153C7 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drbrain@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 17703 invoked by uid 1100); 21 Dec 1999 05:16:20 -0000 Date: 20 Dec 1999 21:16:20 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:16:20 -0800 From: "Dr. Brain" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE is now available Message-ID: <19991220211619.A17628@toxic.magnesium.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just in under the wire for the current millenium, I'm happy to annouce Must be a bug in jordan.pl. Are we sure its Y2K compliant -- Eric Hodel - drbrain@segment7.net - http://segment7.net ... Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you would not have been informed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 21:23: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF80F153A5 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06767; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:22:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991220222155.00b4bf00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:22:47 -0700 To: "Dr. Brain" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE is now available In-Reply-To: <19991220211619.A17628@toxic.magnesium.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:16 PM 12/20/1999 , Dr. Brain wrote: > > Just in under the wire for the current millenium, I'm happy to annouce > >Must be a bug in jordan.pl. Are we sure its Y2K compliant > Which bug? The spelling error or the claim that New Year's will be the end of the millennium? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 20 21:53:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BC514E96 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA70026; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:53:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:53:26 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: "Dr. Brain" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE is now available In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991220222155.00b4bf00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:16 PM 12/20/1999 , Dr. Brain wrote: > > > > Just in under the wire for the current millenium, I'm happy to annouce > > > >Must be a bug in jordan.pl. Are we sure its Y2K compliant > > > > Which bug? The spelling error or the claim that New Year's will be the > end of the millennium? No, the speeling errors are intentional, as a perfect spelling techie would raise suspicion. Unfortunatly it appears to have spilled over into the self-modification code, thus producing subtle bugs. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 11:47:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C882314E7B for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08820; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:19:37 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: members@funy.org Subject: NY Trip. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm visiting my homeland, Brooklyn NY during New Years. If anyone wants to hang out that'd be really cool, any chance we can gather the troops for a FUNY meeting? I'm about to hop the plane so don't expect an immediate responce. -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 12:14:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lucifier.dial-up.user.akula.net (lucifier.dial-up.user.akula.net [208.140.175.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE58E1553F for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mickey@lucifier.dial-up.user.akula.net) Received: (from mickey@localhost) by lucifier.dial-up.user.akula.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA03135; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:14:14 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Shalayeff Message-Id: <199912212014.PAA03135@lucifier.dial-up.user.akula.net> Subject: Re: NY Trip. In-Reply-To: from Alfred Perlstein at "Dec 21, 99 12:19:37 pm" To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:14:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, members@funy.org Reply-To: mickey@openbsd.org X-Operating-System: OpenBSD 2k X-Flames-To: /dev/null X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org re i'm always open to suggestions like this (; cu Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Alfred Perlstein: > > I'm visiting my homeland, Brooklyn NY during New Years. > > If anyone wants to hang out that'd be really cool, any chance we > can gather the troops for a FUNY meeting? I'm about to hop the > plane so don't expect an immediate responce. > > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer > - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] > > -- paranoic mickey (my employers have changed but, the name has remained) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 12:15: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from narcissus.net (narcissus.net [209.73.230.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5449A15513 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@narcissus.net) Received: by narcissus.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 802C57CA; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:13:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:13:23 -0500 From: Ben Rosengart To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org, members@funy.org Subject: Re: NY Trip. Message-ID: <19991221151323.A39585@narcissus.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:19:37PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:19:37PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > I'm visiting my homeland, Brooklyn NY during New Years. > > If anyone wants to hang out that'd be really cool, any chance we > can gather the troops for a FUNY meeting? I'm about to hop the > plane so don't expect an immediate responce. How long will you be here? I'll be out of town for New Year's proper, but I'll be back by Monday. As an aside, I used to work for the ISP of the people you used to work for. ;-) -- Ben "I didn't order any WOO-WOO... Maybe a YUBBA... But no WOO-WOO!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 14: 6:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.globix.net (postal.globix.net [204.254.224.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C35E14FE2 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:06:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uncleben@mindspring.com) Received: from hayseed (bpitzer.support.globix.net [209.10.70.144]) by postal.globix.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA22527; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:02:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991221170041.00afcb50@popserver.globix.com> X-Sender: uncleben@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:06:54 -0500 To: Alfred Perlstein , chat@freebsd.org From: Ben Pitzer Subject: Re: NY Trip. Cc: members@funy.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:19 PM 12/21/99 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >I'm visiting my homeland, Brooklyn NY during New Years. > >If anyone wants to hang out that'd be really cool, any chance we >can gather the troops for a FUNY meeting? I'm about to hop the >plane so don't expect an immediate responce. > >-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] >Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer > - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message FUNY? Didn't know there was such an animal yet, but if y'all are interested in semi-newbie tagalongs, I might be interested. Let me know if any date/time/place combination becomes available. Regards, Ben Pitzer Support Analyst/Systems Administrator Globix Corporation 139 Centre Street New York, NY 10013 Tel: 212.625.6807 Personal Email: uncleben@mindspring.com Work Email: bpitzer@globix.net "I would rather be ashes than dust. I would rather that my spark should burn out in a brilliant blaze than be stifled by dry-rot. I would rather be a superb meteorite, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy, permanent planet. The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I will not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." - Jack London To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 15:35:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tdnet.com.br (guepardo.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437BE1503F for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grios@ddsecurity.com.br) Received: from ddsecurity.com.br [200.236.148.123] by tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0B8CC025E; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:43:52 -0300 Message-ID: <38601BC7.F8D38D25@ddsecurity.com.br> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:31:03 -0200 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: disks and slices (PLEASE GIVE ME A LIGHT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I am sending this message to you once i got no help from questions! My HDD is divided into 2 slices, wd0s1 and wd0s2. I would like to have a third slice: wd0s3. I want to use fdisk rather than /stand/sysintall, once i think it's faster than sysinstall. (i will use sysinstall to see how my new slice status is) g c1027 h255 s63 p 1 11 63 4112577 p 2 165 4112640 8225280 p 3 165 12337920 1606500 #p 3 0 0 0 p 4 0 0 0 a 2 It's all ok! When i use fdisk to look my slices, i can see them clearly, 3 slices. Now, i use sysinstall to see how it is: and.... It shows only two (2) slices, not three (3). I am totally confused. May you, *PLEASE*, explaim me why? Thank you for your time and cooperation. -- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 18:23:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FD414D83 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (patr530-a036.otenet.gr [195.167.115.36]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA25394 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:23:37 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 2691 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Dec 1999 02:22:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:22:36 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: disks and slices (PLEASE GIVE ME A LIGHT) Message-ID: <19991222042236.A2656@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <38601BC7.F8D38D25@ddsecurity.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <38601BC7.F8D38D25@ddsecurity.com.br> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:31:03PM -0200, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: | | I am sending this message to you once i got no help from questions! | My HDD is divided into 2 slices, wd0s1 and wd0s2. Posting a question in freebsd-questions does not always get you an answer, since it might be something that none has seen before, or that none can answer it because they're busy or something. Don't fail to remember that most of the people that write in these lists are also occupied in some daily job, and they do reply in their free time ;) | I would like to have a third slice: wd0s3. I want to use fdisk rather | than /stand/sysintall, once i think it's faster than sysinstall. (i will | use sysinstall to see how my new slice status is) | | g c1027 h255 s63 | p 1 11 63 4112577 slice type == 11, this is AFAIK a windows fat32 type. | p 2 165 4112640 8225280 | p 3 165 12337920 1606500 | #p 3 0 0 0 | p 4 0 0 0 | a 2 | | It's all ok! When i use fdisk to look my slices, i can see them clearly, | 3 slices. | Now, i use sysinstall to see how it is: and.... | | It shows only two (2) slices, not three (3). Perhaps it does not bother showing the windows fat32 slice. Perhaps... I am no bsd guru, therefore I'm only guessing here. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 21 19: 7:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB2614A28 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:07:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA53103; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:05:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Message-Id: <199912220305.WAA53103@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Alfred Perlstein" , "Ben Rosengart" Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" , "members@funy.org" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: NY Trip. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:13:23 -0500, Ben Rosengart wrote: >On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:19:37PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >> >> I'm visiting my homeland, Brooklyn NY during New Years. > >How long will you be here? I'll be out of town for New Year's proper, >but I'll be back by Monday. As an aside, I used to work for the ISP of >the people you used to work for. ;-) I was planning to be out of town for the weekend, but I ended up having to come to work Jan 1.. So let's start organizing... Who will be available Sat night? (jan 1) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 5:11:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8E6154D0 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon1664.tstt.net.tt [209.94.208.24]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id JAA28762 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:04:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3860CD70.904330AD@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:09:04 -0400 From: "Dale E. Chulhan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Tech|Posting] windows debate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -------- Original Message -------- Return-Path: Received: from enggate.uwi.tt (bsd.eng.uwi.tt [192.168.20.191])by ldc.eng.uwi.tt (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA19490for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:56:07 +0400 (GMT) Received: (qmail 67405 invoked by uid 0); 22 Dec 1999 13:00:57 -0000 Received: from web2003.mail.yahoo.com (128.11.68.203)by enggate.uwi.tt with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 13:00:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 1646 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 1999 13:02:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19991222130223.1645.qmail@web2003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.94.210.70] by web2003.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:02:23 PST Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: Kryptonite Hero Subject: Re: [Tech|Posting] windows debate To: "Dale E. Chulhan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-846930886-945867743=:1406" Okay, there are may truths mentioned here. Even though Jon may have vented his opinion on facts that most know (and misconstrued historical events whcih I will not get into now) , M$ will be around for a long time and not a passing nuisance. It is rumoured B_Gates has a picture of Henry Ford on this desk, facing him, which he mediates on every day. Not because Ford too also took something he did not invent -a particular product and became industry leader for a while by excellent operational marketing processes BUT because Ford was LEADER FOR A WHILE. Bill Gates SWORE Microsoft will not lose it dominance like Ford Motors did to become a company in limbo. He has entrenched "MS Technology" and continue to do. Half the stuff M$ does is for long term survival. The Board estiimates their fortunes are safe for the next 5 years. Plans must be put in place for the next 20. Also, MS has led. B_Gates are buying the pioneers of MS around the world to move technology on the wings of MS. These are people who were there before MS (makers of PDP, Multics, IBM experts, British theorists back in von Neumann dayz etc). Mandate: We know you hate MS technology. Well, here is a 1 million and stock options. Do something about it. But use Win32 to do it. Result: MS has influenced interface design in conjuction with MIT Media Labs, expanded on distributed components, showed that a variety of other technoogy can be incorporated and can work (sometimes) and of course OLE now ActiveX. Difference: Netscape, Corel, Sun, Oracle write ELEGANT, WORKING code. M$ creates new ideas which the others follow and adopt ANYHOW my humble contribution Kerry "Dale E. Chulhan" wrote: If you have any idea who Jonathon McKitrick is you will save or print this message and value it for the rest of your lives ======= Only a couple;) On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >I'm having a debate with my brother-in-law over microsoft's business >tactics and bill gates. He argues that gates is a genius for getting PCs >in the hands of average people, not just computer geeks. He argues that Gate's "genius" is only the stupidity and arrogance of IBM (along with the arrogance of Digital Research.) As near as I can recall, the only thing M$ created was a version of Basic. Everything else, he bought. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) >gates was brilliant for his marketing tactics that locked people into >windows, and that he gave people what they wanted: easy-to-use Gates was brutal in his tactics -- not brilliant. He bought the brilliance, as well. Everything that constitutes windows was "borrowed" from someone else and butchered into the twisted mess that is "Windows." >computers. He argues that there may be better OSes out there, but that >gates just had the wherewithall to market it correctly and make it cheap That much, I think is true. Thanks to the sweetheart deal with IBM. Although I would hardly call it "cheap" anymore;) I would, though, ask why he's more interested in marketing skill than reality. >enough and easy enough for the average person to use. He agrees that That isn't true. He rode in on IBM's coattails. If IBM hadn't been what they were -- and still are, Gates would have had no credibilty at all. It's a testimony, which Gates correctly read, to the gullibility of the average consumer. Gates has shown all the street skills of the average pimp. He just applied it to a different whore. >crashes are no fun, and agrees that M$ may be a monopoly, but thinks that >gates did good for consumers, not bad, and that M$ singlehandedly brought Sure, Gates did a good job. He brought poor, misapplied technology to millions who never knew they needed or wanted such a misapplication of good ideas and still can't figure out how to apply it. He sold the "emporor's new clothes." It never ceases to amaze me that, normally rational people who wouldn't accept such a shoddy product in real life, are willing to accept such shoddy performance simply because they've been convinced that a) it's normal in "high tech", b) it's the only way the average individual can be modern and c) the only way they can be compatible. Ask your brother-in-law why he didn't buy a Ford (or Chevy or Dodge -- what ever he didn't buy.) Why should there be a different standard for software? How would he feel if the only car he could drive was a ? >the computer industry to the cutting edge of the eceonomy and brought the >US to its economic growth it enjoys right now. Any thoughts? Gates didn't bring us anywhere. The consumer and their choices brought us where we are. That will change, as it has in the past. Gates was the first individual who understood how to punch the consumer's hot button with "high tech." As more vendors learn how to punch the same button and more consumers get tired of the M$ crap, more will look for alternatives. Of course, more will also look for less complicated means of convenience -- which is the future of the current trend. Right now, _every_ vendor out there seems to be in mortal combat trying to get their idea of the "best" way into the minds of the consumer. Better ideas than M$ existed in the past, and the still do today. The redeeming grace is that M$ is suffering the same hubris as IBM and as did Digital Research. Mr. Gates hasn't been humble enough to learn that lesson. I suspect M$ will suffer the same fate in the near future. I predict that M$ is only a temporary annoyance;) If your brother-in-law wants to cast his lot with a company that is practicing what, in the past, has proven a losing proposition, the best he can hope for is relearning another new world and an endless chase of "compatibility." And, no, I don't think any form of Unix will be the answer, though, I think Unix, of some form will last the longest of any. This is only my opinion. Take it for whatever it may be worth. -- Jay -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 7:55:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AA7154CB for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25188 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:55:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Al Al Al (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org oops, I sent this to the wrong list -Pat ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: members@funy.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Al Al Al so, a founding member comes home for the holidays.... sure the 1st sounds good as long as I can start moving stuff to my new apartment during the day.... anyway let me know what's up, I'm almost up for a quiet party at the new place except I'm not sure we'll definitely be in by then. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 12:25:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5FB3155BE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 24592 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 20:25:45 -0000 Received: from userbq53.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.146.147) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 20:25:45 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA00927 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:25:47 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:25:47 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SeaFUG members punish Linux-chick Message-ID: <19991222202546.F322@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seems that a Linux-chick infiltrated SeaFUG's September meeting and, when discovered, was punished by having her hands nailed to a tree in a mock crucifixion :) http://www.seafug.org/bbq/picnic03_0.jpg http://www.seafug.org/bbq/picnic02_0.jpg Although she was finally released and given a sheet of FreeBSD stickers. (See bottom of http://www.seafug.org/bbq/bbq_summary.html) -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 12:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D536A14CAC for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 120sTL-0001oK-00; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:34:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13946 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:34:59 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:34:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: programming port Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've heard that Microsoft's most valuable configuration/programming tool is the reboot. Any idea when this will be ported to FreeBSD? Maybe we would be more popular if we used it more often. ;-) -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 14:20: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CC014DEF for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9AA3489; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:19:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's not in the ports collection - see man reboot. :-) Now I've done it - I've told someone to read the man page and I'm not posting to -newbies or -questions! Happy Holidays! Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:34:59 +0000 (GMT) > From: Jonathon McKitrick > To: freebsd-chat > Subject: programming port > > > I've heard that Microsoft's most valuable configuration/programming tool > is the reboot. Any idea when this will be ported to FreeBSD? Maybe we > would be more popular if we used it more often. ;-) > > -jm > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 14:48:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0436B14CD2; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA05987; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:18:34 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:18:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Mark Murray , "Andrey A. Chernov" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Names (was: cvs commit: src/share/colldef cs_CZ.ISO_8859-2.src Makefile) Message-ID: <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com> <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving to -chat] On Wednesday, 22 December 1999 at 9:31:53 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: >> On Wednesday, 22 December 1999 at 9:08:35 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote: >>> -On [19991222 06:55], Mark Murray (mark@grondar.za) wrote: >>>>> I assume that this guy's first name is Rudolf. I wonder how many >>>>> people reading this would think it's Cejka. Could we agree to put the >>>>> first first and the last last, at least for European cultures? >>>> >>>> Better - completely capitalise the surname. >>> >>> AFAIk that's only used in Japanese and likewise cultures when they are >>> using western type characters. >>> >>> I have _never_ seen it in use in Europe. >> >> It's relatively common in Central and Eastern Europe, even as close to >> you as Germany. I see it from time to time in the German chat list, >> and in Germany almost all official letters address you the wrong way >> round. In my case, it really confused people because they couldn't >> recognize a first name in either "Greg" or "Lehey". > > I had a very interesting sequence of faxes with a customer in Wien > some years back, from memory it went like: > > me to them: > bla bla bla bla > Poul-Henning Kamp > > them to me: > Dear Mr Poul Kamp, > > me to them > bla bla > Poul-Henning > > them to me: > Dear Mr Poul (Kamp) Henning, > > me to them > > bla bla > Poul-Henning Kamp > > Them to me: > > Dear Mr Poul, > > Which is your first name and which is your last name ? Strange. I would have thought that German speakers would recognize each of the components of your name for what it is. It seems to be English speakers who subdivide first names. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 15:13: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0956414CD2 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:13:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03463 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:11:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:11:40 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3.4-RELEASE ISO image now available. Message-ID: <19991222171140.A3199@futuresouth.com> References: <6449.945829418@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <6449.945829418@zippy.cdrom.com> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 06:23:38PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > P.S. Yes I KNOW the current millennium ends on Dec 31, 2000 and not > this year. A million math-aware individuals could not, however, > stand against the inspirational might of those three little > zeros and we all know it, so just consider yourselves outnumbered > and give up, OK? :-) NEVER! /me goes back to making scenes at WalMart. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 15:37:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04C5514D87 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:37:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 17371 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:37:23 -0000 Received: from useraq09.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.69) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:37:23 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA01604; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:37:29 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:37:29 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Mark Murray , "Andrey A. Chernov" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Names (was: cvs commit: src/share/colldef cs_CZ.ISO_8859-2.src Makefile) Message-ID: <19991222233729.H322@marder-1> References: <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com> <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 09:18:34AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > [moving to -chat] > > On Wednesday, 22 December 1999 at 9:31:53 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > bla bla > > Poul-Henning Kamp > > > > Them to me: > > > > Dear Mr Poul, > > > > Which is your first name and which is your last name ? > > Strange. I would have thought that German speakers would recognize > each of the components of your name for what it is. It seems to be > English speakers who subdivide first names. > Can you clarify what you mean Greg? Is Poul-Henning not a "double-barrelled" forename, like Jean-Paul (French), or Ann-Marie? Thinking about it, it seems only female names are treated like this in English. What about Dag-Erling? > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 15:53:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDFE14C49; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA07073; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:23:01 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:23:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Mark Murray , "Andrey A. Chernov" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Names (was: cvs commit: src/share/colldef cs_CZ.ISO_8859-2.src Makefile) Message-ID: <19991223102301.S1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com> <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> <19991222233729.H322@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991222233729.H322@marder-1> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 December 1999 at 23:37:29 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 09:18:34AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> [moving to -chat] >> >> On Wednesday, 22 December 1999 at 9:31:53 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>>> bla bla >>> Poul-Henning Kamp >>> >>> Them to me: >>> >>> Dear Mr Poul, >>> >>> Which is your first name and which is your last name ? >> >> Strange. I would have thought that German speakers would recognize >> each of the components of your name for what it is. It seems to be >> English speakers who subdivide first names. > > Can you clarify what you mean Greg? A lot of people refer to him as "Poul" (or even "Paul"). > Is Poul-Henning not a "double-barrelled" forename, like Jean-Paul > (French), or Ann-Marie? Indeed. > Thinking about it, it seems only female names are treated like this > in English. > > What about Dag-Erling? The same applies. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 16:56: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580291555C; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA07777; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia Message-ID: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 December 1999 at 13:35:49 -0500, James Howard wrote: > Among other items in my (snail) mail this morning was a copy of > Byte/Russia. My ability to speak Russian is very low and my ability > to write it is even lower. However, on page 76 is a translated > version of "The Real FreeBSD" from the September DaemonNews. In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note my name at the end on page 81. > There are some other things about FreeBSD too, but I am not able to > tell what it means :) The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. > If anyone speaks Russian well, check it out. Well, that eliminates me :-) But the only other stuff I saw were short news articles on page 91: an ad for the FreeBSDCon, information about reorganizations in NetBSD and the release of 1.4.1 and something about OpenBSD which I don't understand enough to quote. One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 19:12: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C9B14DF0 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-119-51.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.119.51]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA30188; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:11:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA57531; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:00:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912230300.VAA57531@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: programming port In-reply-to: Message from Jonathon McKitrick of "Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:34:59 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:00:44 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick writes: > > I've heard that Microsoft's most valuable configuration/programming tool > is the reboot. Any idea when this will be ported to FreeBSD? Maybe we > would be more popular if we used it more often. ;-) Didn't somebody do a BSOD module for xscreensaver or similar? If I remember they were collecting images of any and all crashed systems they could get their hands on. Realistic Win 3, 95, 98, NT 4.0, MacOS, and Amiga bombs. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 22 22:34:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10413150A7 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:34:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 607 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 06:34:35 -0000 Received: from userbf87.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.142.108) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 06:34:35 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA00544; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:34:31 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:34:31 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: David Kelly Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Message-ID: <19991223063430.A323@marder-1> References: <199912230300.VAA57531@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199912230300.VAA57531@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 09:00:44PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Jonathon McKitrick writes: > > > > I've heard that Microsoft's most valuable configuration/programming tool > > is the reboot. Any idea when this will be ported to FreeBSD? Maybe we > > would be more popular if we used it more often. ;-) > > Didn't somebody do a BSOD module for xscreensaver or similar? If I > remember they were collecting images of any and all crashed systems they > could get their hands on. Realistic Win 3, 95, 98, NT 4.0, MacOS, and > Amiga bombs. > Yes, it's in the latest version of xscreensaver (3.21). From bsod(1): "Systems depicted include Microsoft's Windows 95 and Windows NT, Commodore-Amiga's AmigaDOS 1.3, SPARC Linux, SCO UNIX, the Apple Macintosh (both the MacsBug debugger and the rarer "Sad Mac"), and the Atari ST." > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 7:18:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from longacre.demon.co.uk (longacre.demon.co.uk [158.152.156.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63DD15659 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from searle@longacre.demon.co.uk) Received: (from searle@localhost) by longacre.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA90757; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:08:30 GMT (envelope-from searle) Message-ID: <19991223150709.23124@longacre.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:07:09 +0000 From: Michael Searle To: Mark Ovens , David Kelly Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Reply-To: searle@longacre.demon.co.uk References: <199912230300.VAA57531@nospam.hiwaay.net> <19991223063430.A323@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19991223063430.A323@marder-1>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 06:34:31AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 06:34:31AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 09:00:44PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > Jonathon McKitrick writes: > > > > > > I've heard that Microsoft's most valuable configuration/programming tool > > > is the reboot. Any idea when this will be ported to FreeBSD? Maybe we > > > would be more popular if we used it more often. ;-) > > > > Didn't somebody do a BSOD module for xscreensaver or similar? If I > > remember they were collecting images of any and all crashed systems they > > could get their hands on. Realistic Win 3, 95, 98, NT 4.0, MacOS, and > > Amiga bombs. > > > > Yes, it's in the latest version of xscreensaver (3.21). From bsod(1): > > "Systems depicted include Microsoft's Windows 95 and Windows > NT, Commodore-Amiga's AmigaDOS 1.3, SPARC Linux, SCO UNIX, > the Apple Macintosh (both the MacsBug debugger and the rarer > "Sad Mac"), and the Atari ST." They are in the process of getting a Win2K crash as well - they started booting it up a few weeks ago, so if we are lucky it should be up and ready to crash before the end of the millennium. Running this screensaver seems like a good way for a well meaning person to power cycle your machine though. Ooops... There is a Flying Windows screensaver port as well, with the windows being shot down. > > > > > -- > > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > > ===================================================================== > > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture > that allows you to install Windows too" > -Matthew D. Fuller I think they fixed that a long time ago - I've not seen Windows running stably on any PC. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- searle@longacre.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 9:18:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C7014E11; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:18:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA89420; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:16:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Greg Lehey , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Mark Murray , "Andrey A. Chernov" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Names (was: cvs commit: src/share/colldef cs_CZ.ISO_8859-2.src Makefile) References: <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com> <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> <19991222233729.H322@marder-1> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:16:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:37:29 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > What about Dag-Erling? God help whoever dares split *that* up (or even leave out the hyphen). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 9:21:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4FC15727 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA89446; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:20:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Dale E. Chulhan" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Tech|Posting] windows debate References: <3860CD70.904330AD@uwi.tt> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:20:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Dale E. Chulhan"'s message of "Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:09:04 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dale E. Chulhan" writes: > [quoting Kryptonite Hero] > Difference: Netscape, Corel, Sun, Oracle write ELEGANT, WORKING code. That's what he thinks because he hasn't actually *seen* their code. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 10:22:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 335DC14D2D for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 5820 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 18:22:40 -0000 Received: from userbk54.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.62) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 18:22:40 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA00726; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:22:35 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:22:35 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Michael Searle Cc: David Kelly , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Message-ID: <19991223182235.A327@marder-1> References: <199912230300.VAA57531@nospam.hiwaay.net> <19991223063430.A323@marder-1> <19991223150709.23124@longacre.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991223150709.23124@longacre.demon.co.uk> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 03:07:09PM +0000, Michael Searle wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 06:34:31AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Yes, it's in the latest version of xscreensaver (3.21). From bsod(1): > > > > "Systems depicted include Microsoft's Windows 95 and Windows > > NT, Commodore-Amiga's AmigaDOS 1.3, SPARC Linux, SCO UNIX, > > the Apple Macintosh (both the MacsBug debugger and the rarer > > "Sad Mac"), and the Atari ST." > > They are in the process of getting a Win2K crash as well - they > started booting it up a few weeks ago, so if we are lucky it should > be up and ready to crash before the end of the millennium. > > Running this screensaver seems like a good way for a well meaning > person to power cycle your machine though. Ooops... > Someone at work has a BSoD screensaver running on NT itself (honestly, it *is* a screensaver). As well as displaying the BSoD it then goes on to display a simulated re-boot and CHKDSK, finding thousands of corrupt clusters, removing "lost" files etc. All a bit too realistic for my liking :) > There is a Flying Windows screensaver port as well, with the windows being > shot down. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > > > ===================================================================== > > > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > > > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > > "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture > > that allows you to install Windows too" > > -Matthew D. Fuller > > I think they fixed that a long time ago - I've not seen Windows running > stably on any PC. > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > searle@longacre.demon.co.uk > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 10:26:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827CE15669 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:26:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 121Cwe-0005bT-00; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:36 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22482; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:35 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Mark Ovens Cc: Michael Searle , David Kelly , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port In-Reply-To: <19991223182235.A327@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > >Someone at work has a BSoD screensaver running on NT itself (honestly, >it *is* a screensaver). As well as displaying the BSoD it then goes on >to display a simulated re-boot and CHKDSK, finding thousands of >corrupt clusters, removing "lost" files etc. All a bit too realistic >for my liking :) That is *really* creepy -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 10:26:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B38E15669 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 6358 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 18:26:39 -0000 Received: from userbk54.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.62) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 18:26:39 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA00755; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:34 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Names (was: cvs commit: src/share/colldef cs_CZ.ISO_8859-2.src Makefile) Message-ID: <19991223182634.B327@marder-1> References: <19991222185040.D1316@freebie.lemis.com> <18545.945851513@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991223091834.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> <19991222233729.H322@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 06:16:54PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > What about Dag-Erling? > > God help whoever dares split *that* up (or even leave out the hyphen). > I do remember a reply that started "Dag, .....". Seriously, if Dag and Erling aren't 2 separate names, what is the meaning/reason/significance of the hyphen? > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 17:21:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C448C14D47 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-118-112.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.118.112]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA29869; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:21:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA73413; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:13:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912240113.TAA73413@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: programming port In-reply-to: Message from Mark Ovens of "Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:22:35 GMT." <19991223182235.A327@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:13:30 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > > Someone at work has a BSoD screensaver running on NT itself (honestly, > it *is* a screensaver). As well as displaying the BSoD it then goes on > to display a simulated re-boot and CHKDSK, finding thousands of > corrupt clusters, removing "lost" files etc. All a bit too realistic > for my liking :) Now *that* sounds like something useful for NT to be doing! If you figure out where he got that BSoD screensaver please let me know. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 18:13:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7648D14D58 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:13:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 15879 invoked from network); 24 Dec 1999 02:13:21 -0000 Received: from userbq84.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.146.178) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 1999 02:13:21 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA00998; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:13:21 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:13:21 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Message-ID: <19991224021321.A749@marder-1> References: <199912240113.TAA73413@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199912240113.TAA73413@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 07:13:30PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > > > Someone at work has a BSoD screensaver running on NT itself (honestly, > > it *is* a screensaver). As well as displaying the BSoD it then goes on > > to display a simulated re-boot and CHKDSK, finding thousands of > > corrupt clusters, removing "lost" files etc. All a bit too realistic > > for my liking :) > > Now *that* sounds like something useful for NT to be doing! If you > figure out where he got that BSoD screensaver please let me know. > Well, unfortunately (for you, not for me) I'm on holiday until 4th Jan :) I've e-mailed myself at work (yeah, yeah, sad bastard, I know) to remind me to ask him for a copy which I'll send you. Merry Xmas and a Happy New Millenium^WYear > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 18:26:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD5414BDB; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (root@rac8.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.148]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18754; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA14745; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14741; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac8.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia In-Reply-To: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon > News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note > my name at the end on page 81. In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name at the end of page 77. :) > The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the > Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the November issue. Which one do you have? > One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical > detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also > give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 > pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an > almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, > article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 18:36:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from msk1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.23.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8D1156C4 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kabaev@mail.ru) Received: from h0050da20495b.ne.mediaone.net ([24.218.93.188] helo=kan.ne.mediaone.net) by msk1.mail.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #115) id 121KeM-000Hov-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 05:40:14 +0300 Content-Length: 220 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199912240113.TAA73413@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:36:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now *that* sounds like something useful for NT to be doing! If you > figure out where he got that BSoD screensaver please let me know. > www.sysinternals.com, look for Bluescreen. Hopefully, that's what you want. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 19:23:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9639C14C0E; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA22559; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:53:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:53:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia Message-ID: <19991224135350.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 December 1999 at 21:26:17 -0500, James Howard wrote: > On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon >> News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note >> my name at the end on page 81. > > In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article > on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name > at the end of page 77. :) > >> The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the >> Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. > > Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we > are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the > November issue. Which one do you have? Ah, I was beginning to think I got something wrong here. Yes, this is the October issue. >> One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical >> detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also >> give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 >> pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an >> almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, >> article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. > > Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles > on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in > here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :) Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 23 21:41:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705F515182; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00553; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA24829; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24825; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia In-Reply-To: <19991224135350.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-) Always. Since they did take from DaemonNews for both October and November, does anyone know if they did for this month as well? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 24 2:23:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from colin.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7429714E4D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.149.49.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140570-2>; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:23:12 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA02714; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:22:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from ripley.tavari.muc.de(192.168.42.202) via SMTP by smptd, id smtpdUV2712; Fri Dec 24 11:22:36 1999 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:22:35 +0100 From: Lutz Albers To: Mark Ovens , Michael Searle Cc: David Kelly , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: programming port Message-ID: <1141749916.946034555@ripley.tavari.muc.de> In-Reply-To: <19991223182235.A327@marder-1> X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [2.0.0b5, s/n U-301229] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, Mark Ovens said on 1999-12-23 18:22 +0000: > On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 03:07:09PM +0000, Michael Searle wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 06:34:31AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >> > >> > Yes, it's in the latest version of xscreensaver (3.21). From bsod(1): >> > >> > "Systems depicted include Microsoft's Windows 95 and Windows >> > NT, Commodore-Amiga's AmigaDOS 1.3, SPARC Linux, SCO UNIX, >> > the Apple Macintosh (both the MacsBug debugger and the rarer >> > "Sad Mac"), and the Atari ST." >> >> They are in the process of getting a Win2K crash as well - they >> started booting it up a few weeks ago, so if we are lucky it should >> be up and ready to crash before the end of the millennium. >> >> Running this screensaver seems like a good way for a well meaning >> person to power cycle your machine though. Ooops... >> > > Someone at work has a BSoD screensaver running on NT itself (honestly, > it *is* a screensaver). As well as displaying the BSoD it then goes on > to display a simulated re-boot and CHKDSK, finding thousands of > corrupt clusters, removing "lost" files etc. All a bit too realistic > for my liking :) That screensaver (BTW, available from www.sysinternals.com) is really a pice of art. It actually detects your hardware and processor and adapts the BSOD screen to this data. I've removed this from my NT work boxes after accidently rebooting one of them :-) Merry Christmas lutz -- Lutz Albers, lutz@tavari.de, pgp key available from Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 24 5:32: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41D715214; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 05:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id OAA11928; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:31:20 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id OAA85367; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:50:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19991224145045.60133@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:50:45 +0100 From: Phil Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: core@freebsd.org Subject: Uptime ! (507 days and going) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know it's sometimes possible to send pizzas over the Internet -- I wish there was a way to send champagne bottles :-) FreeBSD makes my millenium. Kudos to core and all the commiters for making such a damn good OS. -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<----- FreeBSD hotel 2.2.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE #0: Mon Aug 3 13:59:34 CEST 1998 regnauld@hotel:/usr/src/sys/compile/HOTEL i386 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12:01AM up 507 days, 13:55, 0 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- interrupt total rate clk0 irq0 90522502 2 rtc0 irq8 1316453051 30 fdc0 irq6 1 0 wdc0 irq14 40528130 0 sc0 irq1 3247 0 lpt0 irq7 8 0 ep0 irq10 36581164 0 Total 1484088103 33 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 129826426 cpu context switches 1484088124 device interrupts 96267441 software interrupts 158719945 traps 2354287946 system calls 1090720 swap pager pageins 1928428 swap pager pages paged in 1429999 swap pager pageouts 3153731 swap pager pages paged out 777095 vnode pager pageins 2606263 vnode pager pages paged in 0 vnode pager pageouts 0 vnode pager pages paged out 140807 page daemon wakeups 294702989 pages examined by the page daemon 2645430 pages reactivated 35402589 copy-on-write faults 65967234 zero fill pages zeroed 10371 intransit blocking page faults 145231860 total VM faults taken 119491326 pages freed 108308 pages freed by daemon 87770608 pages freed by exiting processes 1773 pages active 132 pages inactive 440 pages in VM cache 1292 pages wired down 120 pages free 4096 bytes per page 250174109 total name lookups cache hits (76% pos + 7% neg) system 5% per-directory deletions 1%, falsehits 1%, toolong 0% -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Memory statistics by bucket size Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree 16 34 734 419570 1280 0 32 83 301 2050492 640 0 64 3090 302 38594149 320 0 128 3009 351 38734783 160 4668 256 1478 666 33824550 80 6860 512 48 96 1315916 40 215904 1K 54 34 81584137 20 18833341 2K 22 8 74643 10 31768 4K 8 12 34672 5 33927 8K 0 4 1098 5 0 16K 3 0 7 5 0 Memory usage type by bucket size Size Type(s) 16 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, vnodes, proc, temp, sysctl, KTRACE 32 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, pgrp, session, subproc, temp, KTRACE 64 routetbl, ifaddr, iov, namecache, VM mapent, VM pgdata, file, lockf, in_multi, KTRACE 128 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, zombie, ifaddr, cred, vnodes, VM map, VM object, VM pgdata, file desc, proc, temp, ttys, KTRACE 256 devbuf, socket, pcb, routetbl, vnodes, VM map, VM pgdata, file desc, subproc, FFS node, temp, KTRACE, select 512 devbuf, pcb, ioctlops, mount, UFS mount, VM pgdata, file desc, proc, BIO buffer, KTRACE 1K devbuf, namei, UFS mount, VM pgdata, temp, BIO buffer, KTRACE 2K mbuf, devbuf, ioctlops, UFS mount, VM pgdata, ttys, BIO buffer, KTRACE 4K devbuf, ioctlops, namecache, UFS quota, UFS mount, VM pgdata, temp, ttys 8K VM pgdata, temp, KTRACE 16K devbuf, KTRACE Memory statistics by type Type Kern Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s) mbuf 1 2K 2K 9020K 1 0 0 2K devbuf 23 70K 78K 9020K 105 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K socket 25 7K 90K 9020K 3568811 0 0 256 pcb 34 7K 130K 9020K 4906484 0 0 16,32,128,256,512 routetbl 55 7K 50K 9020K 568597 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 zombie 0 0K 6K 9020K 1274250 0 0 128 ifaddr 8 1K 1K 9020K 8 0 0 64,128 namei 0 0K 8K 9020K 80843830 0 0 1K ioctlops 0 0K 4K 9020K 9 0 0 512,2K,4K cred 19 3K 11K 9020K 860065 0 0 128 pgrp 15 1K 2K 9020K 247447 0 0 32 session 15 1K 2K 9020K 234530 0 0 32 iov 0 0K 1K 9020K 13 0 0 64 mount 6 3K 3K 9020K 6 0 0 512 vnodes 1333 166K 174K 9020K 322917 0 0 16,128,256 namecache 1306 86K 86K 9020K 1306 0 0 64,4K UFS quota 1 4K 4K 9020K 1 0 0 4K UFS mount 16 22K 22K 9020K 16 0 0 512,1K,2K,4K VM map 36 9K 26K 9020K 1274286 0 0 128,256 VM mapent 1319 83K 83K 9020K 1319 0 0 64 VM object 1367 171K 197K 9020K 31606222 0 0 128 VM pgdata 435 36K 119K 9020K 241046 0 0 64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K file 89 6K 17K 9020K 34235130 0 0 64 file desc 38 6K 25K 9020K 1611565 0 0 128,256,512 lockf 4 1K 2K 9020K 4250332 0 0 64 proc 36 16K 51K 9020K 1371883 0 0 16,128,512 subproc 38 4K 9K 9020K 2548538 0 0 32,256 FFS node 1302 326K 326K 9020K 22966070 0 0 256 in_multi 3 1K 1K 9020K 3 0 0 64 temp 21 9K 35K 9020K 2607711 0 0 16,32,128,256,1K,4K,8K ttys 208 30K 59K 9020K 115767 0 0 128,2K,4K sysctl 0 0K 1K 9020K 87 0 0 16 BIO buffer 61 74K 79K 9020K 813886 0 0 512,1K,2K KTRACE 0 0K 13K 9020K 974 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,8K,16K select 15 4K 13K 9020K 160802 0 0 256 Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests 1144K 429K 196634017 -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<----- -- [ In 7 days, 11 hours and 11 minutes, this line might fail Y2K compliance ] y2k -- an occasion to remember how far we haven't come in the last 2000 years. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 24 7:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E7A14EC9; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 121Wh9-000OKa-00; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:31:55 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28347; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:31:55 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:31:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Uptime ! (507 days and going) In-Reply-To: <19991224145045.60133@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's a lot of data... what command produces those reports? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 24 8: 2: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF53214FD5 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id RAA14221; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:01:23 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id RAA86017; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:20:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19991224172048.17894@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:20:48 +0100 From: Phil Regnauld To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Uptime ! (507 days and going) References: <19991224145045.60133@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 03:31:55PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick writes: > > That's a lot of data... what command produces those reports? /usr/bin/uname -a /usr/bin/uptime /usr/bin/vmstat -i /usr/bin/vmstat -s /usr/bin/vmstat -m -- [ In 7 days, 8 hours and 39 minutes, this line might fail Y2K compliance ] y2k -- an occasion to remember how far we haven't come in the last 2000 years. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message