From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 2 3: 4: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F8A37BA9F for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 03:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e62A3qt25668; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:03:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA35361; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:03:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:03:49 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Troll Tech's QPL Message-ID: <20000702120349.A35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At http://freshmeat.net/news/2000/07/01/962510340.html one of the Trolls is talking about the QPL and some of the reasons its incompatible with the GPL. I responded to that article and some comments and wonder what my fellow advocacy brethren think of my comments. Hmmm, I really should get Eivind to write the Why GPL Hurts Businesses paper. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Any road leads to the end of the world... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 2 8:53:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371CF37B606; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 08:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA35138; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:53:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007021553.LAA35138@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Advocacy List" , "FreebSD ISP list" , "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New Egroups list. Corporate BSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There is a new list dedicated to BSD in your organization. This group is intended to be part advocacy, part BSD and part third party systems. Basically anything which will help you get BSD in use or to keep it running in your organization. How does this group differs from: ** Questions We are presenting this group as NOT for absolute beginners and we will suggest to them to seek out the appropiate list. In particular if the question has no relation to BSD use in an organization. ** Advocacy This list will focus on advocacy in a more narrow scope such as strategies to present BSD to your manager or the organization. ** ISP Although ISPs are organizations, their needs are different. For example an ISP may dictate through a contract with the user their rights. On an organization there may exist rules and regulations and the BSD admin would have to be bound to those. i.e. email retention and access policies. An organization may have a policy which dictates that all emails are kept in archive and that they may be randomly checked or scanned for keywords. It is unlikely that an ISP would want to or ask of their user's permission to keep indefinitely and spot check their email. That of course is just an example, but there are many other areas that differ. Some questions that may be raised by this announcement and their answer: -- Why isn't this list hosted by one of the BSD mailing list. I originally thought of this list as a FreeBSD list and asked the List master (jmb) about it. His answer was that he would prefer that we start it and that if it is truly active that he would host it with the FreeBSD lists. I thought that this makes sense. Specially given his feedback that several times people have asked for lists and they have been dead shortly after their creation. --Why is subscription moderated So we can control spammers. If someone spams the list we can ban them. --How do I join? http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 5 2: 4:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6890C37B745 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 02:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA99024 for FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:34:04 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:34:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: LSB-VSX test suite V1.0-1 Message-ID: <20000705183404.M97425@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is this something FreeBSD people should be looking at? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Christopher Yeoh ----- > For those who are interested, the LSB-VSX test suite has just been > released. This tests for POSIX.1-1990 (which is part of the LSB > specification) compliance. > > Just a warning - if you run the test suite on a 2.4test kernel (at > least up to test3pre2) it can/will cause a lockup of the kernel and > perhaps some filesystem corruption as well. It works fine on 2.2 > kernels. > >> From the systems (2.2.x kernels) I've run it on there are about 30 > failures out of 6000 tests. There seems to be little difference > between distributions. > > Chris. > >> All >> The first snapshot release of the LSB-VSX test suite for the >> POSIX.1 aspects of the Linux Standard Base is now available for download from: >> >> ftp://lsb.sourceforge.net/pub/lsb/LSB-VSX1.0-1/ >> >> >> This version of the VSX-PCTS has been setup to autoconfigure >> on Linux systems. A front end script install_wrapper.sh is used >> to auto install, setup and run the test suite. In theory this should >> allow running of the test suite by those unfamiliar with POSIX.1 >> and its myriad of options and thus the associated test suite >> configurables. >> >> >> I include the release notes below. >> >> If you encounter a problem in the suite, please send in a bug report >> directly to me at ajosey@opengroup.org, cc lsb-test@linuxbase.org, please >> include the test output together with any suggested fixes. Please include >> the following subject line in your message >> >> Subject: BUG in LSB-VSX (testcase-name-here) >> >> If possible include the assertion reference number. >> >> Acknowledgements are due to : >> Chris Yeoh >> Nick Petreley >> Dale Scheetz >> George Kraft >> plus many others involved in this packaging of the POSIX test suite >> for Linux. >> >> Our next steps are now to expand our test coverage to other >> areas outside the core POSIX. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> LSB-VSX Release 1.0-1 >> Release Notes >> >> >> This document provides Release notes for the Verification suite for the >> POSIX.1 coverage of the Linux Standard Base. >> >> 1. Release Overview >> >> LSB-VSX 1.0-1 is the first release of this test suite for the POSIX.1 >> coverage for the Linux Standard Base. LSB-VSX is built using the VSXgen >> (the generic VSX test framework), with the VSX-PCTS 4.4.4 test set >> merged into it. The test coverage corresponds to the core "classic" >> POSIX.1 (including ISO C). >> >> >> This test suite has not yet been formally approved by the Linux Standard >> Base team and no claims should be made of LSB conformance to this version >> of the test suite. The test assertions being tested are included with >> the distribution in the MAN/tset directory. >> >> 1.1 Changes since the last release >> >> The following changes have been made since the last >> release: >> >> This version of the VSX-PCTS has been setup to autoconfigure >> on Linux systems. A front end script install_wrapper.sh is used >> to auto install, setup and run the test suite. >> >> 1.2 Status >> >> A few bugs were found in the suite during the port which were verified >> with the official VSX-PCTS support team and fixed; for example the >> namespace test tool did not understand GNU header files correctly >> (#include_next and other features). Also a bug shown up by fclose() >> behavior in glibc was fixed. >> >> Pseudottys versus Real Ttys: >> >> The tests for the tty subsystem run best when using real tty ports, >> however since many test configuration may not have two tty ports and a loopback >> cable available we have enabled the tests to run using pseudottys. >> This does mean that users will encounter more failures when running using >> pseudottys than real tty ports, and this is because pseudottys are >> unable to emulate all the hardware characteristics of real ttys. The >> list of expected failures is given with the release in the FAILURES.VSX4 >> file. >> >> >> The remaining failures have been categorised as Linux non-compliance >> issues, specification issues and test suite issues. >> >> 1.2.1. Linux compliance Issues: >> >> Kernel level problems : Incorrect errno values being set (eg dup2, unlink) >> >> Header file inconsistencies between the limits in limits.h >> and the kernel returns from sysconf() (eg LINK_MAX). >> >> For the tests related to mount points, the system is setting errno to >> the wrong value when an attempt is made to remove a directory that is >> a mount point. Since the directory exists, ENOENT is not appropriate. >> The calls should be setting errno to EBUSY (if they fail). >> >> Kernel inconsistency? >> >> For directories in use by another process, it seems that rename() gives >> EBUSY when it attempts to remove this type of busy directory, but remove() >> and rmdir() can successfully remove them. (Otherwise rmdir 7 and remove 7 >> would show two failures, the same as in rename 13). This is a strangely >> inconsistent implementation. Every implementation we have encountered so >> far has treated all attempts to remove a busy directory in the same way, >> regardless of which system call is used. That is why VSX4 only has the >> one VSX_REMOVE_DIR_EBUSY parameter for all the calls. One opinion of >> this difference between the behavior is a bug in the implementation, >> however, it isn't a non-compliance. >> >> >> glibc related problems >> >> Mostly header file problems (visiblity of function prototypes, etc) - >> expected to be fixed in later releases >> >> locale related failures need to be investigated further , experiments >> on glibc2.2 appear to have resolved these, they could be a test locale >> setup problem >> >> Some of the above problems may be fixed in 2.4.0 and many are reportedly >> fixed in glibc 2.2 to be released soon. >> >> 1.2.2. Specification Issues >> >> tmpfile() ignores umask. There is some debate at POSIX whether this >> is a good idea or not, at the moment the specification requires tmpfile() >> to honour umask. >> >> time.h not explicitly allowed to be included in signal.h . This is >> expected to be resolved in favour of the current implementation. >> >> 1.2.3. Issues Identified with VSX-PCTS >> >> These are mainly setup related in areas that are allowed to change >> for each operating system . >> >> Two tests fail because of the way test suite is setup (for ease of use reasons, >> allowing us to switch between suites). >> (a) getlogin() does not match vsx0 user >> (b) Home directory of vsx0 user is not the same as $HOME >> These would pass once test suite setup correctly >> >> Possible test locale setup problem (VSX4L2) under investigation (see >> glibc problems listed before). At the moment we are unable to build >> the locale, with localedef on glibc2.1 systems that has passed the >> tests under glibc2.2. >> >> >> 2. Release Contents >> >> The release consists of the following files. >> >> LSB-VSX-1.0-1.tar.gz The source code to the suite in gzip'd tar format >> vsxgde.ps The Users Guide in postscript >> vsxgde.pdf The Users Guide in PDF format >> relnote.txt These release notes >> >> 3. TET >> >> LSB-VSX runs under TET3 (The Test Environment Toolkit test framework). >> A suitable version of TET3 is bundled with the release. The latest >> release can also be obtained at: >> >> ftp://ftp.rdg.opengroup.org/pub/TET3/ >> >> TET3 must be configured to build as the Lite version . Do not use >> the Distributed version. For more information on TET , see >> http://tetworks.opengroup.org . >> >> 4. Documentation >> >> Two files are included with the release to ease installation and >> test setup: INSTALL.SETUP and INSTALL.VSX4. Please follow the instructions >> within these to install, configure and execute the tests. >> >> For more in depth information consult the User's Guide which provides >> comprehensive information on the installation, configuration and use >> of this test suite. >> >> 5. Support >> >> Support related questions and problem reports should be directed to by >> email to ajosey@rdg.opengroup.org. >> >> 6. Size >> >> The size of LSB-VSX when the suite is built is approximately 40MB. The >> size of the compressed distribution is roughly 3.5 MB. When running the >> complete test suite, journal files will be produced that are typically >> less than 1MB in length, so its recommended that at least 20MB of disk >> space be allowed for a test campaign. >> >> 7. Time >> >> The test suite takes approximately six to eight hours to run depending on the >> speed of the platform under test. The signals tests are known to take >> several hours to run. >> >> >> Licensing information. >> >> See the Licence file included in the distribution for licensing >> information. At the moment this is the Artistic License. The Open >> Group intends to change the license to that recommended by the Linux >> Standard Base team. >> >> >> ----- >> Andrew Josey The Open Group >> Director, Server Platforms Apex Plaza,Forbury Road, >> Email: a.josey@opengroup.org Reading,Berks.RG1 1AX,England >> Tel: +44 118 9508311 ext 2250 Fax: +44 118 9500110 >> >> >> -- >> >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to lsb-test-request@lists.linuxbase.org >> with subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Email listmaster@lists.linuxbase.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 1:17:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292D037B582; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05047; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:47:01 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:47:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: dutchmen at LinuxTag Message-ID: <20000706174700.C2024@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200007060810.KAA43262@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200007060810.KAA43262@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [moving from -hackers to -advocacy] On Thursday, 6 July 2000 at 10:10:59 +0200, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > Who of our dutch FreeBSD fellows were present at LinuxTag (LinuxDay in > Germany) recently, spreading the word for FreeBSD? > > I have got a positive response of a Linux addict who said that > these guys were very friendly, and he was considering buying a FreeBSD > CD and using it in a webserver environment. But 90 Deutsch Marks OTOH was > too expensive to him. (I'm feeling to be obligued to send him a > complimentary copy of one of my 4.0 FreeBSD CDs). You should contact Pat Reitz and get her to send you some giveaway CDs for the next Linuxtag. We're having a Linux Installfest here in Adelaide next weekend (15th) (see http://www.linuxsa.org.au/meetings/installfest2000/), and BSDi have contributed 200 giveaways, which should be ample. You'll notice it figures quite prominently in the web page. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 2: 8: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD7137B827 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 02:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA50413; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 02:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Christoph Kukulies , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: dutchmen at LinuxTag In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:47:01 +0930." <20000706174700.C2024@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:08:35 -0700 Message-ID: <50410.962874515@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You should contact Pat Reitz and get her to send you > some giveaway CDs for the next Linuxtag. We're having a Linux Sadly, due to shipping costs and unbelievable customs hassles, we almost never send promotional CDs outside the country anymore. We send them instead to people in the US who are planning to fly/walk/swim to the events in question and let them deal with it. Once BSDi Europe really gets going and starts replicating CDs inside the EU, that will change. Probably about 6 months off still. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 9:45:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C70137B6C8; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25898; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:44:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 -0600 To: Narvi , Dann Lunsford From: Brett Glass Subject: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was just in communication with the developers of Opera this morning, and it appears that the presence of Linux emulation in FreeBSD is likely to cost us a native port of this superior browser and e-mail client. According to an employee of Opera software, >Just talked with Darren [their lead developer for UNIX] who said he >doesn't have the time to make native FREEBSD at the moment, and since the >Linux emulation version work so damn well this is not a priority. In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a native port. And if Linux ever pulls the rug out from under the emulator by adding or changing APIs (Microsoft did this to OS/2's Windows emulation), we're hosed altogether. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The correct strategy is not to emulate a competitive OS, *ever*. Rather, create an emulation of your *own* API that runs on *their* platform. (This is the strategy that Java took, and it's no wonder that it got Microsoft so scared; it works!) Putting an emulator on *their* platform increases the value of coding to your API, whereas emulating their API decreases it. There are only three things that can be done NOW to prevent virtually every commercial software developer from using the emulator instead of porting to FreeBSD: 1) In the case of Opera, lobby like crazy for a native port, assuring them that we'll buy lots of copies but will *not* buy a Linux version. If possible, volunteer labor. There's *still* no guarantee that we will ever get a port, but it's certainly worth a shot. 2) To solve the more general problem, start working on a FreeBSD API emulator for Linux. It won't have to be GPLed (so that we won't have to produce GPLed code as with the Linux emulation), and it will be easier to maintain than the current emulator. Port the same emulation layer to other UNIX-like OSes, including Solaris and the other open source BSDs. 3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 11:29: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay02.chello.nl (relay02.chello.nl [212.83.68.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF1137C221 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay02.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 2ee4e7c625482f2f2a1950a80f6c8d58) with ESMTP id <20000706182845.ZPYJ26299.relay02@chello.nl>; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:28:45 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00397; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:28:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:28:40 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Greg Lehey Cc: Christoph Kukulies , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: dutchmen at LinuxTag Message-ID: <20000706202840.D285@freebie.wbnet> Reply-To: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200007060810.KAA43262@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <20000706174700.C2024@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000706174700.C2024@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 05:47:01PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 05:47:01PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > [moving from -hackers to -advocacy] > > On Thursday, 6 July 2000 at 10:10:59 +0200, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > > Who of our dutch FreeBSD fellows were present at LinuxTag (LinuxDay in > > Germany) recently, spreading the word for FreeBSD? > > > > I have got a positive response of a Linux addict who said that > > these guys were very friendly, and he was considering buying a FreeBSD > > CD and using it in a webserver environment. But 90 Deutsch Marks OTOH was > > too expensive to him. (I'm feeling to be obligued to send him a > > complimentary copy of one of my 4.0 FreeBSD CDs). > > You should contact Pat Reitz and get her to send you > some giveaway CDs for the next Linuxtag. We're having a Linux > Installfest here in Adelaide next weekend (15th) (see > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/meetings/installfest2000/), and BSDi have > contributed 200 giveaways, which should be ample. You'll notice it > figures quite prominently in the web page. Right, this is what we had back in March when Jordan & Pat visited the founding meeting of the NLFUG (Dutch FreeBSD Users Group) [please pronounce with a soft, Dutch, G...]. 200 or so 3.4 CDs were sent over by WC which really helped to spread the FreeBSD word. -- Wilko Bulte http://www.freebsd.org "Do, or do not. There is no try" wilko@freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 12:30:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73EE37C316; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA52413; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:30:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200007061930.PAA52413@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Southeast MI users' group (was re: cocaine snorting in Michigan) In-Reply-To: <20000706151907.K4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> from Bill Fumerola at "Jul 6, 2000 3:19: 7 pm" To: billf@chimesnet.com (Bill Fumerola) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > There was talks of starting a Southeastern Michigan group, but most > of us around here are too lazy to actually do it. > I'll take on the job of attempting to coordinate a Southeast Michigan users' group. If anyone's interested, email me. Perhaps the Royal Oak or Farmington Hills area? They're somewhat central, with any number of decent restaurants/bars/whatnot for an initial meeting. Followups to, uh, -advocacy, I suppose. ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 12:31:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6317937B9D0; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A81F81C65; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:31:19 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Adam , Michael Lucas , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) Message-ID: <20000706153119.L4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200007061246.IAA50548@blackhelicopters.org> <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu>; from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:51:29AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ moved to -advocacy from -hackers ] On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:51:29AM -0400, Bush Doctor wrote: > > I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone > > should start one :p > Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers > and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come > here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... There's also a large OpenBSD assembly of people at UofM. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 12:41: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.wmptl.com (mail2.wmptl.com [216.221.73.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D8637C0B1 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Received: from wmptl.com ([10.0.0.168]) by mail2.wmptl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA48980; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:01:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Message-ID: <3964DFF6.B098A459@wmptl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:37:26 -0400 From: Nathan Vidican X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) References: <200007061246.IAA50548@blackhelicopters.org> <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> <20000706153119.L4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > [ moved to -advocacy from -hackers ] > > On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:51:29AM -0400, Bush Doctor wrote: > > > > I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone > > > should start one :p > > Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers > > and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come > > here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... > > There's also a large OpenBSD assembly of people at UofM. > > -- > Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES > e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message I'm from Windsor, Ontario, short dirve off from Lansing. Definetly interested in some sort of user's group for FreeBSD (or OpenBSD for that matter too). Just a little confused with this thread here; who's from Lansing area? -- Nathan Vidican webmaster@wmptl.com Windsor Match Plate & Tool Ltd. http://www.wmptl.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 12:44:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.wmptl.com (mail2.wmptl.com [216.221.73.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFADF37B70C for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Received: from wmptl.com ([10.0.0.168]) by mail2.wmptl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49058; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:05:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Message-ID: <3964E0F9.793FCE56@wmptl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:41:45 -0400 From: Nathan Vidican X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Southeast MI users' group (was re: cocaine snorting in Michigan) References: <200007061930.PAA52413@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > > > > > There was talks of starting a Southeastern Michigan group, but most > > of us around here are too lazy to actually do it. > > > > > I'll take on the job of attempting to coordinate a Southeast Michigan > users' group. If anyone's interested, email me. > > Perhaps the Royal Oak or Farmington Hills area? They're somewhat > central, with any number of decent restaurants/bars/whatnot for an > initial meeting. > > Followups to, uh, -advocacy, I suppose. > > ==ml > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message How far from the Windsor/Detroit border is Farmington Hills/Royal Oak? I'm definetly interested in helping get some sort of user's group going too. (From Windsor, Ontario here). Let me know will you? I wouldn't mind a drive over for a once-a-week kind of deal or something, I'm not too good with my bearings over there as to city names, but I've driven through quite a bit of Michigan. -- Nathan Vidican webmaster@wmptl.com Windsor Match Plate & Tool Ltd. http://www.wmptl.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 12:52:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B149637B907 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3EE401C65; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:52:53 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Nathan Vidican Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) Message-ID: <20000706155253.P4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200007061246.IAA50548@blackhelicopters.org> <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> <20000706153119.L4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <3964DFF6.B098A459@wmptl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3964DFF6.B098A459@wmptl.com>; from webmaster@wmptl.com on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 03:37:26PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 03:37:26PM -0400, Nathan Vidican wrote: > I'm from Windsor, Ontario, short dirve off from Lansing. Definetly > interested in some sort of user's group for FreeBSD (or OpenBSD for that > matter too). Just a little confused with this thread here; who's from > Lansing area? Well, what we're talking about is forming a Detroit Metro Area group (SEMFUG, DMAFUG, SEMBUG, DMABUG..), so that's an even closer drive. If our facility actually had any kind of room that could be mistaken for a conference room, I'd offer to host... -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 13: 2: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sin.core-sdi.com (sin.core-sdi.com [200.49.71.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFF337B91F for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alejo@core-sdi.com) Received: from amadeus.servers.core-sdi.com (amadeus.servers.core-sdi.com [192.168.13.3]) by sin.core-sdi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170671E06; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:23:52 -0300 (ART) Received: from core-sdi.com (mona.corelabs.core-sdi.com [192.168.66.201]) by amadeus.servers.core-sdi.com id RAA30424; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:00:27 -0300 Message-ID: <3964E65F.6F8D6F65@core-sdi.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:04:47 -0300 From: Alejo Sanchez X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.7 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Adam , Michael Lucas , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) References: <200007061246.IAA50548@blackhelicopters.org> <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> <20000706153119.L4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > [ moved to -advocacy from -hackers ] > > On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:51:29AM -0400, Bush Doctor wrote: > > > > I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone > > > should start one :p > > Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers > > and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come > > here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... > > There's also a large OpenBSD assembly of people at UofM. > this is correct, see http://www.monkey.org/ Really cool guys. If you want to do some *BSD on umich.edu I'd bet they'll jump in. Several of them are great OS developers. Cheers, -- Alejo Sanchez - Developer alejo@core-sdi.com Core SDI S.A. http://www.core-sdi.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 13: 7:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.wmptl.com (mail2.wmptl.com [216.221.73.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840C37B61A for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Received: from wmptl.com ([10.0.0.168]) by mail2.wmptl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49475; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from webmaster@wmptl.com) Message-ID: <3964E654.B30B9542@wmptl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:04:36 -0400 From: Nathan Vidican X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) References: <200007061246.IAA50548@blackhelicopters.org> <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> <20000706153119.L4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <3964DFF6.B098A459@wmptl.com> <20000706155253.P4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 03:37:26PM -0400, Nathan Vidican wrote: > > > I'm from Windsor, Ontario, short dirve off from Lansing. Definetly > > interested in some sort of user's group for FreeBSD (or OpenBSD for that > > matter too). Just a little confused with this thread here; who's from > > Lansing area? > > Well, what we're talking about is forming a Detroit Metro Area group > (SEMFUG, DMAFUG, SEMBUG, DMABUG..), so that's an even closer drive. > > If our facility actually had any kind of room that could be mistaken > for a conference room, I'd offer to host... > > -- > Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES > e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org I've got a conference room located in downtown Windsor -directly one block east of the Ambassador bridge exit. Could comfortably fit 12-20 people there, if you guys wanted to host meetings from Windsor? -- Nathan Vidican webmaster@wmptl.com Windsor Match Plate & Tool Ltd. http://www.wmptl.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 13:13:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FAA37C1E2 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3754E1C65; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:13:33 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Nathan Vidican Cc: Michael Lucas , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Southeast MI users' group (was re: cocaine snorting in Michigan) Message-ID: <20000706161333.Q4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200007061930.PAA52413@blackhelicopters.org> <3964E0F9.793FCE56@wmptl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3964E0F9.793FCE56@wmptl.com>; from webmaster@wmptl.com on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 03:41:45PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 03:41:45PM -0400, Nathan Vidican wrote: > How far from the Windsor/Detroit border is Farmington Hills/Royal Oak? > I'm definetly interested in helping get some sort of user's group going > too. (From Windsor, Ontario here). > Let me know will you? I wouldn't mind a drive over for a once-a-week > kind of deal or something, I'm not too good with my bearings over there > as to city names, but I've driven through quite a bit of Michigan. 20 minutes from the bridge/tunnel, in good traffic/weather. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 13:57:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natmail2.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F6A37B807 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from inferno@nightfire.de) Received: from nightfire.de (hmbdi6-212-144-145-015.arcor-ip.net [212.144.145.15]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01429; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:57:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3964F2DD.C6ABDE2A@nightfire.de> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:58:05 +0200 From: Olaf Hoyer Reply-To: ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW0322q (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dutchmen at LinuxTag References: <200007060810.KAA43262@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christoph Kukulies schrieb: > > Who of our dutch FreeBSD fellows were present at LinuxTag (LinuxDay in > Germany) recently, spreading the word for FreeBSD? > > I have got a positive response of a Linux addict who said that > these guys were very friendly, and he was considering buying a FreeBSD > CD and using it in a webserver environment. But 90 Deutsch Marks OTOH was > too expensive to him. (I'm feeling to be obligued to send him a > complimentary copy of one of my 4.0 FreeBSD CDs). > Hi! If you mean Stuttgart, then first, thanks a lot. Well, it was probably Wim Vandeputte, a Belgian. wvdputte@kd85.com He actually was mainly promoting OpenBSD. The new 2.7 version of June 16th was available for 60 German Marks ~30 U$. We also had the first CD of the WC 4.0 FreeBSD set for sale for symbolic 5 DM to cover some of our costs there (we had to drink a lot in those halls without air conditioning, and about 10-15 computers (varying with the amount of notebooks brought to us for additional care and install measurements) produced lots of heat. (Was also a demonstration of stable CD burning and simultaneously doing ftp and stuff at 8x. Pity was that the CD-R went too hot after ~50 CDs the afternoon...) Lehmanns (a big bookstore) also had some copies of their FreeBSD 4.0 distribution for sale for 40 DM. Regards Olaf Hoyer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 14: 4:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1080337B63F; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA70129; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar > products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? On the other hand, I don't think I really want to know. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 15: 8:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C40337B58A; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29422; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:08:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:59:00 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:04 PM 7/6/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think >that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? The libraries are an integral part of the Linux emulation package, and they *are* GPLed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 15:54:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0F337B866; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA32059; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:54:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:54:39 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: :At 03:04 PM 7/6/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: : :>Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think :>that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? : :The libraries are an integral part of the Linux emulation package, and :they *are* GPLed. Only because no one has written a BSD licensed replacement for them. I'm sure that if someone would supply them, they'd get committed. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 16:30:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5226D37B60E; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14094; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:31:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQfaWEB; Thu Jul 6 16:30:56 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07626; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:30:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007062330.QAA07626@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) To: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Jul 06, 2000 02:04:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar > > products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a > > Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think > that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? I think he is referring to the Linux threads kernel module, which is required to run many modern Linux programs written by people who don't understand finite state automata. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 16:43:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE6237BA34 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA53555; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200007062343.TAA53555@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) In-Reply-To: <20000706155253.P4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> from Bill Fumerola at "Jul 6, 2000 3:52:53 pm" To: billf@chimesnet.com (Bill Fumerola) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Cc: webmaster@wmptl.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, what we're talking about is forming a Detroit Metro Area group > (SEMFUG, DMAFUG, SEMBUG, DMABUG..), so that's an even closer drive. I'd suggest "SeMiBUG". > If our facility actually had any kind of room that could be mistaken > for a conference room, I'd offer to host... For an initial meeting, I doubt we would have more than half a dozen people. Once we get the ball rolling, it would pick up. For a small meeting, we could meet darn near anywhere. I'll check at work, they might not mind hosting something like this. I'll label it PR. :) I wouldn't mind Windsor, but some of the other folks might. I'm so far east, if I go any further I'll have to roll up my pants to keep them dry. ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 16:58:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF96437BA34; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53085; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:58:22 -0700 Message-ID: <53082.962927902@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The correct strategy is not to > emulate a competitive OS, *ever*. This thread is as silly now as it was the first time it came up. Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. You can, of course, choose to totally disagree with this assertion and rant on for 300 or more messages on the topic if you so decide, we cannot stop you. Whether you choose to do so or not, however, nobody is going to remove the linux compatability code and it will continue to be maintained until such time as Linux goes closed-source and screws up the APIs so badly that they cannot be effectively reverse-engineered or otherwise emulated. Period. You might just as well attempt to repeal the laws of gravity. You can, and in fact do, also totally disagree with this as a strategy and can pontificate at great length about your views on how to properly support/evangelise/encourage the freebsd native API, how ignorant we are in our insistence on supporting the linux API in any way, shape or form or otherwise attempt to continue to fight an entirely losing battle to somehow "desupport Linux compatability" in FreeBSD. None of that will change the fact that it's a fight you've already lost well in advance and honestly, if you have any common sense at all, you'll save your fingers and our mailboxes by not refighting and relosing it all over again. The users like and use it and that means it's not going away, also period. Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" (or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 17:31:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from goku.cl.msu.edu (goku.cl.msu.edu [35.8.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45F137BB36 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by goku.cl.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22441; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:30:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:30:58 -0400 From: Bush Doctor To: Adam Cc: Michael Lucas , Bill Fumerola , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) Message-ID: <20000706203058.A22336@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Adam , Michael Lucas , Bill Fumerola , advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20000706115129.B74002@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 06:16:14PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 WWW-Home-Page: http://bantu.cl.msu.edu Organisation: Fraternal Order of Whipped Husbands -- (F.O.O.W.H.) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue Adam aka (bsdx@looksharp.net) said: > On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Bush Doctor wrote: > > >Out of da blue Adam aka (bsdx@looksharp.net) said: > >> On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> >> I fully expect to be physically assulted by all who I encounter the > >> >> next time I'm in California for this act of stupidity. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Physically assaulted? No, why do that when we can point and laugh? > >> >It's legal, and much more devastating. > >> > > >> >Just noticed you're in Michigan. Are you aware of any Michigan > >> >FreeBSD groups? I've been looking around Detroit for a while, and > >> >haven't found any. > >> > > >> >==ml > >> > >> I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone > >> should start one :p > >Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers > >and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come > >here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... > > > >bush doctor > > > > Oh really! Why didnt Ed ever tell me about it! I'd assume he knows because > he works at cl ;) (I work at egr) You mean zik? Well what would he know :). Actually I used to work in his group We're next door neighbors now. Two of his workers and I get together sometimes to discuss various fbsd topics. We've talked about forming a user's group for a while, but haven't done much about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure we'd all be interested in helping out ... > > > #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 18:30:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BCC37BC31; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01332; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:28:45 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:54 PM 7/6/2000, David Scheidt wrote: >Only because no one has written a BSD licensed replacement for them. I'm >sure that if someone would supply them, they'd get committed. Duplicating all of the idiosyncrasies of the Linux libraries would require a "clean room" approach, so it would take at least two people -- not one. Also, ongoing "clean rooming" would be necessary to accommodate changes to Linux as they came. All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key applications. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 18:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC53337BDDA for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:30:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 13AMyf-0005cg-00; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 03:30:49 +0200 Received: (from naddy@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03278 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:43:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:43:24 +0200 From: Christian Weisgerber To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: LinuxTag 2000 Message-ID: <20000707014324.A278@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Show -------- LinuxTag is the largest European Linux event. This year the show--affectionally abbreviated "LT2K"--had moved from the cramped confines of the University of Kaiserslautern to the trade show center in Stuttgart, Germany, and had been extended to a total of four days, June 29 to July 2. Some 100 commercial exhibitors and 25 Open Source projects occupied more than 6000 square meters of show floor. What had started out as a few enthusiasts presenting Linux and Open Source solutions has turned into a professional trade show, featuring big names like IBM, Compaq, and Siemens. Guests of honor were Richard M. Stallman, Illiad, and Alan Cox. As in previous years, entrance to the show floor was free, as were the talks on Friday to Sunday. Only the Business Track of presentations on Thursday was subject to registration and a hefty admission charge. Altogether, there were some 100 presentations covering a wide range of Linux and Open Source related topics. The show floor was open from 09:00 to 18:00 (16:00 on Sunday). Total attendance was 17,000. The event proved a complete success for all parties concerned. Jolt Germany, who had cleverly set up camp in the passage from the main entrance to the first exhibition hall, sold every single can of Jolt cola they had brought. The BSD Talks ------------- My talk on Saturday (Room 2, 14:00) went quite well. I gave a basic introduction to BSD, explaining the differences or lack thereof as compared to Linux, and generally tried my best to answer in advance the primary questions Linux people always ask when confronted with BSD. Competing against Torben Weis' KOffice and Anselm Lingnau's Tcl/Tk presentations, I saw some 300 people show up. Subsequently (Room 3, 16:00), Thomas Graichen presented a performance comparison covering Linux 2.2/2.4, Solaris 7/8, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. Thomas had done painstaking work to ensure that the results were reproducible and to avoid a variety of typical pitfalls. Still, the findings turned out to be highly questionable. For example, nobody believed for a second that the *BSD's I/O throughput as measured with the bonnie benchmark is really an order of magnitude better than Linux'. Obviously, more work is needed. Thomas is still to be lauded for what was very likely the largest investment of time and effort of all speakers and his courage to present such a flame-triggering topic. The Social Event ---------------- Thursday night there was a party at the Frontsite booth. I'm afraid I still don't know what this company offers, and some malicious tongues suggested that even the employees don't seem to know, but the free beer and cocktails were widely appreciated. To facilitate socialization between exhibitors, speakers, and organizers, Friday night featured the official Social Event. 600 tickets had been given out, and attendance seemed fairly complete. An empty exhibition hall had been furnished with tables and a catering service had set up an appropriately sized buffet. There were ample amounts of cold and warm food, fruit, sweetmeats, etc. The beer was top quality, and so was the wine I'm told. I met a lot of people I knew from previous LinuxTags and similar events. A young woman, who had garnered some moderate notice during the day due to the amounts of clothing she wore or rather didn't wear, turned out to be a singer who presented the organizers with a song. I kind of failed to understand the connection between love swooning and LinuxTag, but it was a decidedly nice idea by some exhibitors who understood just what amount of work had gone into making the whole event come true. Afterwards, Richard Stallman was persuaded to perform his Free Software Song. "Share the software..." Well. The rendition was somewhat better than the audio file floating around on the net. Then the woman tried her voice again at a Mariah Carey tune. There was tongue-in-cheek disagreement over who sang worse, Stallman or the girl, but general consent that she had the far better looks to her favor. Saturday night saw another booth party, but we decided to skip that one in favor of getting someting to eat in town. The BSD Booth ------------- Food and sleep are for wimps. If you ever had to pull booth duty, you will probably know what I mean. We arrived on Wednesday to set up the BSD booth, which was a three by three-meter cubicle in the Open Source Pavilion. There were several FreeBSD machines on display, including an SMP one and an Alpha, a variety of boxes of moderate age showcasing NetBSD, a MicroVAX II running 4.3BSD Tahoe, and a Sun and a couple of notebooks under OpenBSD. Norbert Meissner had fashioned stickers from several popular BSD logos. Setting up went smoothly, contrary to some commercial exhibitors who had been working till three in the morning as we learned the next day. On Thursday, Wim Vandeputte arrived from Belgium with a trunkload of OpenBSD paraphernalia: shirts, the first 2.7 CDs available in Europe, posters, caps, and even daemon's forks. This greatly improved the looks of the booth and visitor attraction. Wim turned out to be a superior salesman as well. I understand he also managed to talk some of the present manufacturers into donating hardware to the OpenBSD project for driver development. We'll see what comes out of this. The booth also sold 150 CDs burned on the spot. These were mostly FreeBSD 4.0 for i386, but also a few for alpha and some NetBSD 1.4.2 ones. Thursday started out somewhat weakly as expected, but on the subsequent days there was plenty of visitor interest. All those BSD shirts served to draw attention. I'm told that traffic at the booth also increased after my talk. I think we were quite successful in spreading the BSD message. In fact, our booth was "booked" for a (much smaller) Linux event later this year in Feldkirch, Austria. Relations with the people from the other (mostly Linux) Open Source booths were great. There was a general sense of comradeship and not a trace of hostility in either direction. It also bears pointing out that the BSD booth smoothly united people from all three BSD projects without rivalry. Some time after his wife had already picked up a FreeBSD CD, Alan Cox, Linux kernel hacker incarnate, dropped by at the booth and we had a brief chat. Surprise, Alan already has a FreeBSD box for comparison purposes. Apparently there are some secret communications between Alan and FreeBSD's Matt Dillon with regard to VM development, and Alan suggested that the FreeBSD and Linux VM handling will converge over the next two or three years. Exhaustion ---------- After five days, the dominating feelings were exhaustion and a general sentiment of success. Many exhibitors already promised to return for LinuxTag 2001 and the venue will continue to provide sufficient space for a few years to come. Clearly, BSD should again be present, too. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 18:51:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 195C137BBE2 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4468 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 01:51:43 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 01:51:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 12794 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 01:51:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:21:42 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LinuxTag 2000 Message-ID: <20000707072142.A12789@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000707014324.A278@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000707014324.A278@bigeye.mips.inka.de>; from naddy@mips.inka.de on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:43:24AM +0200 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christian Weisgerber said on Jul 7, 2000 at 01:43:24: > Some time after his wife had already picked up a FreeBSD CD, Alan > Cox, Linux kernel hacker incarnate, dropped by at the booth and we His wife mentions the BSD booth a couple of times on http://www.linux.org.uk/~telsa/Trips/stuttgart.html the BSDs were there sharing an incredibly crowded booth and looking for women to don a daemon outfit (they eventually persuaded one of the people I know from Linuxchix that she wanted to be a daemon); .... The BSD folks had a new poster. "Come and see..." and there followed a list of about a dozen different machines with specs and which flavour of BSD they were running, and then "and thirteen people -- all in twelve square metres", which made me laugh. That corridor just got more and more crowded and hotter and hotter through the show. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19: 3: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.tesserae.com (freebsd.tesserae.com [209.157.194.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBFB37BCB3; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@cadabra.com) Received: by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6148F45B; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7B0442; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Preston S. Wiley" X-Sender: pwiley@freebsd.tesserae.com To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > applications. Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. - Preston To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19: 5:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D8937BA7B; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA32161; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Preston S. Wiley" Cc: Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > > applications. > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. Hokay, I have no desire to be subjected to this argument another time..Brett, if you or anyone else feel compelled to reply please remove my name from the CC list. Thanks. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19:11:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66BE37BD77; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01708; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:11:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:11:00 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <53082.962927902@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:58 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability >code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. It *is* useful, Jordan. It's useful to ensure that FreeBSD doesn't get native ports of applications. It's useful to maintain FreeBSD in its position of playing second fiddle to Linux forever. And it's useful to limit BSDi's profit potential and the extent of any rewards you personally are likely to reap -- ever -- from your many years of hard work on FreeBSD. I do NOT want to continue this thread for 300 messages, but fortunately, there's no need to. It can all be said in a few short paragraphs. Jordan, by putting out an OS which emulates a stronger competitor, while at the same time NOT providing FreeBSD API compatibility for other OSes, you're making two strategic errors that will sabotage not only your life's work so far but your own prospects for being justly and fairly compensated, and duly recognized, for what you do. That's not fair to you or to FreeBSD. >Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist >tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing >at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" >(or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. You *are* dreaming, Jordan, but not in the way you think. YOU are the Quixotic one, not I, and you're dreaming in the same way Don Quixote does in the well-known musical "Man of La Mancha:" To dream the impossible dream; To fight the unbeatable foe; To bear with unbearable sorrow; To run where the brave dare not go.... (etc) Don Quixote is so immersed in his books that he loses touch with reality -- to the extent that he doesn't even snap out of it when he tilts at windmills until they beat him senseless. It really hurts to see this happen to you, especially when the beating in this case is coming at the hands of one Richard Stallman, a nasty demagogue if there ever was one. This is reality, Jordan. Linux emulation has gotten FreeBSD into serious trouble vis a vis third party application support -- the lifeblood of any operating environment. Only by taking correct and decisive action can it recover from that damage. I'm not proposing that Linux emulation be cut off instantly (since, as you say, it cannot and will not be) but rather that an exit strategy be devised for it -- at the end of which emulation will be neither desired nor needed by anyone. The only exit from the emulation trap (as I've already mentioned) involves turning the tables and executing the same "middleware" play that Microsoft so feared when it was executed by Sun and Netscape. Richard Stallman and the FSF are every bit as predatory and desirous of an all-encompassing empire as is Bill Gates, and only the same techniques that threatened to keep Microsoft in check will work to counter Linux's utter dominance in the sphere were FreeBSD should be thriving. Capisch? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19:14:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E1137C01E; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01743; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:13:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:13:44 -0600 To: "Preston S. Wiley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:02 PM 7/6/2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: >Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user >base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux >compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything >Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) >The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. The flaw in this argument is that the USERS are not the ones who have to make the decision whether to port. It's the DEVELOPERS. And if the developers see the Linux API as universal and therefore write to it, it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE how many users FreeBSD has. The ports will not happen. Period. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 304DC37BD7E for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4518 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 02:14:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:44:48 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 08:11:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for emulation then. Well, it works for me anyway. Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2000 at 20:11:00: > At 05:58 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability > >code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. > > It *is* useful, Jordan. It's useful to ensure that FreeBSD doesn't get > native ports of applications. It's useful to maintain FreeBSD in its > position of playing second fiddle to Linux forever. And it's useful to > limit BSDi's profit potential and the extent of any rewards you > personally are likely to reap -- ever -- from your many years of hard > work on FreeBSD. > > I do NOT want to continue this thread for 300 messages, but fortunately, > there's no need to. It can all be said in a few short paragraphs. > > Jordan, by putting out an OS which emulates a stronger competitor, > while at the same time NOT providing FreeBSD API compatibility for > other OSes, you're making two strategic errors that will sabotage > not only your life's work so far but your own prospects for being > justly and fairly compensated, and duly recognized, for what you do. > That's not fair to you or to FreeBSD. > > >Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist > >tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing > >at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" > >(or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. > > You *are* dreaming, Jordan, but not in the way you think. YOU are > the Quixotic one, not I, and you're dreaming in the same way Don > Quixote does in the well-known musical "Man of La Mancha:" > > To dream the impossible dream; > To fight the unbeatable foe; > To bear with unbearable sorrow; > To run where the brave dare not go.... (etc) > > Don Quixote is so immersed in his books that he loses touch with reality > -- to the extent that he doesn't even snap out of it when he tilts at > windmills until they beat him senseless. > > It really hurts to see this happen to you, especially when the beating in > this case is coming at the hands of one Richard Stallman, a nasty demagogue > if there ever was one. > > This is reality, Jordan. Linux emulation has gotten FreeBSD into serious > trouble vis a vis third party application support -- the lifeblood of any > operating environment. Only by taking correct and decisive action can it > recover from that damage. I'm not proposing that Linux emulation be cut off > instantly (since, as you say, it cannot and will not be) but rather that an > exit strategy be devised for it -- at the end of which emulation will be > neither desired nor needed by anyone. > > The only exit from the emulation trap (as I've already mentioned) involves > turning the tables and executing the same "middleware" play that Microsoft > so feared when it was executed by Sun and Netscape. Richard Stallman and the > FSF are every bit as predatory and desirous of an all-encompassing empire > as is Bill Gates, and only the same techniques that threatened to keep > Microsoft in check will work to counter Linux's utter dominance in the > sphere were FreeBSD should be thriving. Capisch? > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19:22: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBA937B612 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00859; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:21:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Bush Doctor Cc: Michael Lucas , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) In-Reply-To: <20000706203058.A22336@goku.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> >> >Just noticed you're in Michigan. Are you aware of any Michigan >> >> >FreeBSD groups? I've been looking around Detroit for a while, and >> >> >haven't found any. >> >> > >> >> >==ml >> >> >> >> I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone >> >> should start one :p >> >Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers >> >and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come >> >here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... >> > >> >bush doctor >> > >> >> Oh really! Why didnt Ed ever tell me about it! I'd assume he knows because >> he works at cl ;) (I work at egr) >You mean zik? Well what would he know :). Actually I used to work in his group >We're next door neighbors now. Two of his workers and I get together sometimes >to discuss various fbsd topics. We've talked about forming a user's group for >a while, but haven't done much about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm >sure we'd all be interested in helping out ... I meant Edward Glowacki, perhaps cs is bigger than I thought? I believe he works pretty close with Doug. I'm sure there are lots of FreeBSD people around campus who probably dont use it enough at work and would have time to get together or something. I think maybe a few people at the greater lansing LUG have used *bsd including Ed and myself, and while they usually discuss broad Unix topics like PGSQL etc, there is time in the get together when they talk about the problems they are having with the, *cough*, lesser features of Linux and I just sit back and snicker to myself wishing I was surrounded with people I felt like helping ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 19:46:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9922937B695; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02057; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:46:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:46:05 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:14 PM 7/6/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for >emulation then. > >Well, it works for me anyway. Remember, most open source software consists of copies of commercial products. The commercial products need to be there first. And the majority of people (especially businesspeople who don't want to be computer geeks like us) desire software that's written, packaged, and supported by people who stake their daily bread on it rather than being volunteers. Finally, too much of the software out there that claims to be "Open Source" is not Open Source at all. It's GPLed. (The GPL violates the Open Source Definition in that it discriminates against a field of endeavor: commercial software development. Therefore, despite claims to the contrary, GPLed software is NOT Open Source.) There isn't enough TRUE open source software out there -- at least not yet -- to fill all the needs most of us have. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 21:18:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AE5A37BC83 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 7881 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 04:18:12 -0000 Received: from du84.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.84) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 04:18:12 -0000 Message-ID: <396559E2.45585B92@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:17:38 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Preston S. Wiley" , David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:02 PM 7/6/2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: > > >Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > >base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > >compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > >Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > >The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > The flaw in this argument is that the USERS are not the ones who have to > make the decision whether to port. It's the DEVELOPERS. And if the > developers see the Linux API as universal and therefore write to it, > it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE how many users FreeBSD has. The ports will not > happen. Period. Why does the absence of a native version, assuming the Linux version works well under emulation, matter? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 21:32:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196D637B612; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02972; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:32:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:32:06 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <396559E2.45585B92@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:17 PM 7/6/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Why does the absence of a native version, assuming the Linux version >works well under emulation, matter? Because, simply put, platforms live and die by the amount of NATIVE software that's available for them. Applications are always tuned for the platforms for which they are natively targeted. What's more, I know of no vendor (though perhaps there are a very few out there) that supports the use of its software under an emulation. This by itself is enough to drive serious users to a natively supported platform. It makes no difference if the emulation is actually SUPERIOR to the original. OS/2 ran some 16-bit Windows apps better than Windows 3.1 itself, and it didn't matter one bit; application vendors told me I was on my own if I revealed that I was running the product under Win-OS/2. I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native code. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 21:50:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF7C37B6C0; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54204; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:11:00 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: <54201.962945434@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wurgh. Let's cut to the chase: I completely disagree. I disagree with your reasoning, I disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with the arguments you present, I disagree with your characterizations of me and of my position on this issue and I completely disagree with your feelings on what "linux compatability is doing to FreeBSD." If there's one thing we can agree upon, its the fact that we disagree. Let's quit while we're at least one up. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 22: 9:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860D437BD3C; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03364; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:09:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:08:47 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54201.962945434@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:50 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Wurgh. Let's cut to the chase: I completely disagree. I disagree >with your reasoning, I disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with >the arguments you present, I disagree with your characterizations of >me and of my position on this issue and I completely disagree with >your feelings on what "linux compatability is doing to FreeBSD." >If there's one thing we can agree upon, its the fact that we >disagree. Let's quit while we're at least one up. Which way do you think of as "up?" In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and temporally -- of the world. As well as a model of that world that has successfully predicted events which are now occurring. (The problems with obtaining a native port of Opera are just one predicted result.) In any event, this is one area in which I will get NO pleasure from coming back later and saying "I told you so." If you're unwilling to listen NOW, FreeBSD will remain a minor blip on the radar screen, and will not be able to prevent the FSF and its minions from stomping all over it and everyone else in the software world. It'd be sad indeed if you abdicated the power to change that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 22:33:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F6437B8D4; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA54400; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:08:47 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:33:50 -0700 Message-ID: <54397.962948030@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Which way do you think of as "up?" Giving the users what they want now rather than trying to socially engineer either them or the ISVs in unrealistic and impractical ways. You seem to be under the highly misguided impression that simply by giving ISVs some sort of FreeBSD compatability option for Linux, they'll flock to it in droves. Clearly, you have never been or worked for an ISV of any size or you would not hold such hallucinogenic thoughts in your head. > In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a > perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and > temporally -- of the world. This is the classic delusional mindset at work. Because I refuse to belive that you are Napoleon even though you walk around with one hand stuck in your vest and call for Josephine at night in your sleep, I am in your eyes simply unable to see the larger picture and perceive the parallel universe in which you ARE Napoleon. The failure is mine. How convenient, eh? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 23:27:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719AB37BA6D; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e676R6q84220; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78706; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:08:47PM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000707 08:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a >perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and temporally -- >of the world. As well as a model of that world that has successfully >predicted events which are now occurring. (The problems with obtaining >a native port of Opera are just one predicted result.) Hahahaha. Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the person I know and met (and others as well). Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. Really, you are (unfortunately) really wrong in this aspect. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project And I'm learning the highs and lows of the fake promises... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 23:38:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BD837BCEB; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04162; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:37:42 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54397.962948030@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:33 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Which way do you think of as "up?" > >Giving the users what they want now rather than trying to socially >engineer either them or the ISVs in unrealistic and impractical ways. Jordan: Giving a platform a competitive edge does not mean "socially engineering" anyone. And "giving the users what [you perceive that] they want now" may turn out to be shortsighted. In the long run, users want applications which are supported on the platform they are running. If you do anything to prevent this from happening, users will ultimately fail to get the applications they want with the support they need and THEY WILL LEAVE. >You seem to be under the highly misguided impression that simply by >giving ISVs some sort of FreeBSD compatability option for Linux, >they'll flock to it in droves. Any single API which can reach a maximum number of users is attractive to developers. This was the intended appeal of Java, before Microsoft queered the deal by creating an incompatible implementation. (Sun should have insisted on authoring the standard implementation for Windows to avoid this.) In any event, the correct thing to do in the UNIX, and UNIX-like, world is to make the API which can address the most users FreeBSD's native API, not that of Linux. By porting the FreeBSD API to Linux, one would accomplish that goal. By going the other way and providing Linux emulation, one makes a case for developing for Linux only. > Clearly, you have never been or worked >for an ISV of any size or you would not hold such hallucinogenic >thoughts in your head. Jordan, the above certainly makes me wonder if YOU have worked for, or have had any experience in dealing with, any applications companies. I do both on a daily basis. Now, it may be counter-intuitive to you, but these people care not a whit about the quality of the platform itself. They only care about how many sales of a given SKU they can get without repackaging or recoding. That's it. You're setting things up so that they will NOT develop for FreeBSD; in fact, you're stacking the deck against it. >> In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a >> perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and >> temporally -- of the world. > >This is the classic delusional mindset at work. I see: Anyone who does not agree with you must of course be "delusional," even if his model of the world has accurately predicted events and yours has not. I guess that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, too. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 23:41:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B4F37BDA7; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04197; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:40:44 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:27 AM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Hahahaha. > >Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also >on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you >absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the >person I know and met (and others as well). >Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. Well, as far getting native ports of applications, emulating Linux has been a macro-level mistake! If this is the sort of "thinking on the macro level" you are talking about, I hope you will agree that there is a problem here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 23:46:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE69537B781; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john.execpc.com (d48.as7.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.128.176]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.1) id BAA00901; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:46:02 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707013952.00b25488@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: fpawlak/mail.execpc.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:45:54 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54397.962948030@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Aaahhh Brett, On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having build problems. "We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the BSD platforms." The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never in the above. Regards, Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 6 23:54:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C26137BD77; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04283; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:54:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:54:23 -0600 To: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707013952.00b25488@127.0.0.1> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Frank: I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. --Brett At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Aaahhh Brett, > >On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >build problems. > >"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >BSD platforms." > >The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >in the above. > >Regards, >Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 7: 0:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h004.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E3E837BE5B for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ignacioc@avantel.net) Received: (cpmta 19008 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 07:00:22 -0700 Received: from DHCP-9.interclan.net.mx (HELO nachito) (148.245.81.9) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.218) with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 07:00:22 -0700 X-Sent: 7 Jul 2000 14:00:22 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Brett Glass" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: , Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:57:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just love it! -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass Sent: Viernes, 07 de Julio de 2000 01:54 To: Frank Pawlak; Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Frank: I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. --Brett At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Aaahhh Brett, > >On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >build problems. > >"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >BSD platforms." > >The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >in the above. > >Regards, >Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 9:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2277037BF24; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08485; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707102444.047ab100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:26:09 -0600 To: "Ignacio Cristerna" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Me too! Who out there who is willing to help mount an effort to "invade" the Linux space by doing a FreeBSD ABI (application binary interface) for Linux? --Brett Glass At 07:57 AM 7/7/2000, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: >I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will >always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a >prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just >love it! > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass >Sent: Viernes, 07 de Julio de 2000 01:54 >To: Frank Pawlak; Jordan K. Hubbard >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : >Windows))) > > >Frank: > >I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long >time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their >developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce >development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux >and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for >the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, >and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. > >--Brett > >At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >>Aaahhh Brett, >> >>On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >>they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >>build problems. >> >>"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >>however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >>well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >>interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >>We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >>understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >>BSD platforms." >> >>The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >>in the above. >> >>Regards, >>Frank > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 11:13:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from goku.cl.msu.edu (goku.cl.msu.edu [35.8.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E46D37C2F6 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by goku.cl.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA36858; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:13:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:13:43 -0400 From: Bush Doctor To: Adam Cc: Michael Lucas , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cocaine snorting reported in Michigan, details at 11 (was Re: data corruption) Message-ID: <20000707141343.A81182@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Adam , Michael Lucas , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000706203058.A22336@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 10:21:16PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 WWW-Home-Page: http://bantu.cl.msu.edu Organisation: Fraternal Order of Whipped Husbands -- (F.O.O.W.H.) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue Adam aka (bsdx@looksharp.net) said: > >> >> >Just noticed you're in Michigan. Are you aware of any Michigan > >> >> >FreeBSD groups? I've been looking around Detroit for a while, and > >> >> >haven't found any. > >> >> > > >> >> >==ml > >> >> > >> >> I keep mentioning to bill and others on irc from michigan that someone > >> >> should start one :p > >> >Well if anyone is ever down East Lansing way, a couple of co-workers > >> >and I have an informal group. Everyone is more than welcome to come > >> >here or maybe we could meet somewhere in between ... > >> > > >> >bush doctor > >> > > >> > >> Oh really! Why didnt Ed ever tell me about it! I'd assume he knows because > >> he works at cl ;) (I work at egr) > >You mean zik? Well what would he know :). Actually I used to work in his group > >We're next door neighbors now. Two of his workers and I get together sometimes > >to discuss various fbsd topics. We've talked about forming a user's group for > >a while, but haven't done much about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm > >sure we'd all be interested in helping out ... > > I meant Edward Glowacki, perhaps cs is bigger than I thought? I believe > he works pretty close with Doug. I'm sure there are lots of FreeBSD > people around campus who probably dont use it enough at work and would > have time to get together or something. I think maybe a few people at the > greater lansing LUG have used *bsd including Ed and myself, and while they > usually discuss broad Unix topics like PGSQL etc, there is time in the > get together when they talk about the problems they are having with the, > *cough*, lesser features of Linux and I just sit back and snicker to > myself wishing I was surrounded with people I felt like helping ;) I've never met Ed Glowacki, but Doug's group is at the other end of the hall. Can you tell me more about the lansing LUG? Maybe we could start by arranging to get *BSD people around campus, lansing and east lansing area to meet informally? > > > #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 12: 9:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA6C37BF2D for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07983; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:34:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:34:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Bush Doctor Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Michigan user groups (was Re: cocaine snorting (was Re: data corruption)) In-Reply-To: <20000707141343.A81182@goku.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I've never met Ed Glowacki, but Doug's group is at the other end of the >hall. Can you tell me more about the lansing LUG? Maybe we could start >by arranging to get *BSD people around campus, lansing and east lansing >area to meet informally? www.gllug.org has some information, there is even a mailing list at egr.msu.edu (described on the page I believe). The people commonly involved in the group are decent people and dont get upset at all when people mention BSD, some of them even seem half interested. Got several university and k12 school admin type people in the group as well as home users and at least one involved debian developer. I'd love to help get a group together if people would be interested, we could start by searching the freebsd mail archives for posts from msu.edu :) Might even be able to use some of the same meeting places (at different times) as the LUG uses, and perhaps even get some attendees who want to see what the other side is like :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 12:15: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from goku.cl.msu.edu (goku.cl.msu.edu [35.8.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CA537BE2E for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by goku.cl.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05634; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:14:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:14:58 -0400 From: Bush Doctor To: Adam Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Michigan user groups (was Re: cocaine snorting (was Re: data corruption)) Message-ID: <20000707151458.A66873@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Adam , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000707141343.A81182@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 02:34:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 WWW-Home-Page: http://bantu.cl.msu.edu Organisation: Fraternal Order of Whipped Husbands -- (F.O.O.W.H.) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue Adam aka (bsdx@looksharp.net) said: > >I've never met Ed Glowacki, but Doug's group is at the other end of the > >hall. Can you tell me more about the lansing LUG? Maybe we could start > >by arranging to get *BSD people around campus, lansing and east lansing > >area to meet informally? > > www.gllug.org has some information, there is even a mailing list at > egr.msu.edu (described on the page I believe). The people commonly > involved in the group are decent people and dont get upset at all when > people mention BSD, some of them even seem half interested. Got several > university and k12 school admin type people in the group as well as home > users and at least one involved debian developer. I'd love to help get a > group together if people would be interested, we could start by searching > the freebsd mail archives for posts from msu.edu :) Might even be able to > use some of the same meeting places (at different times) as the LUG uses, > and perhaps even get some attendees who want to see what the other side is > like :) Sounds like a plan. I've bounced your reply to some people here in the lab whom I know would be interested. Including you it would give us six. A begining?? :) > #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 12:18:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9AD37C158; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e67JHue15376; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:17:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA80675; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:17:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:16:21 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:40:44AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000707 12:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 12:27 AM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also >>on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you >>absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the >>person I know and met (and others as well). >>Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. > >Well, as far getting native ports of applications, emulating Linux has >been a macro-level mistake! We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this is essential to the debate you wish to carry. >If this is the sort of "thinking on the macro level" you are talking >about, I hope you will agree that there is a problem here. With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which Linux created. Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). Oracle is working on a native port of their DBMS, Highpoint Tech is kind enough to place a FreeBSD banner on their frontpage of their site. Our userbase continues to flourish. BSD events, such as my local NLFUG meetings, continue to amass more and more likeminded and curious individuals. These are but mere aspects and effects of things which Jordan started on some level, and normal people like myself and many others continues on a smaller scale. We are here, we are demanding our portion of the marketshare, there's no denying us. Now tell me again, how did the linuxulator hurt us again? Companies will always work according to the demand/supply principle, so the userbase needs to, politely, ask Opera to release a _native_ port. We pulled this off with Oracle (IIRC) and we also amassed tons of votes for a native JDK and for more products, and we got them and/or are getting them. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project I think, therefore I am... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 13: 3:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.mich.com (mercury.mich.com [64.79.64.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F4C37C05F; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm011-032.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.0]) by mercury.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19135; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:00:11 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2E2C31997; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:58:08 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707155808.J10303@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:16:21PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:16:21PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to > appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this > is essential to the debate you wish to carry. We could document which Linux syscalls should be changed into what BSD syscalls, to ease the job of porting. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 14:33:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19A337B7F8; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28603; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:31:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhVaa03; Fri Jul 7 14:31:48 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13600; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:32:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007072132.OAA13600@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) To: pwiley@cadabra.com (Preston S. Wiley) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:32:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Preston S. Wiley" at Jul 06, 2000 07:02:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > > applications. > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the Linux emulation is broken in the process... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 14:35:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D103737BFFA; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22286; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:35:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5jaOBR; Fri Jul 7 14:35:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13694; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:34:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007072134.OAA13694@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Jul 07, 2000 07:44:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for > emulation then. > > Well, it works for me anyway. Any release date on the non-alpha, non-beta, version 1.x KDE Office stuff yet? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 17:32:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38EF37B5AB; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA70643; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Preston S. Wiley" , Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <200007072132.OAA13600@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > Linux emulation is broken in the process... Well, we do have working SVR4 binary compatability, you know. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 17:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9D037BAF1; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16855; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:38:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39667888.3F79E5E9@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 18:40:40 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 :Windows))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Frank: > > I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long > time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their > developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce > development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux > and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for > the foreseeable future. Which presents absolutely no problems to the user of the software. Your time would be much better spent in encouraging them to test the Linux release on one or more FreeBSD workstations, and/or to advertise it as a Linux/FreeBSD version, than to convince them to undertake another port. FreeBSD doesn't require a Linux emulator, it supports Linux-format ELF binaries, in the same way it supports other binary image formats. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 20:12:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B326B37B634; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-16.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.16]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e683CZZ29384; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:12:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26069; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:49:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007080249.VAA26069@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:06 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > I was just in communication with the developers of Opera this morning, and > it appears that the presence of Linux emulation in FreeBSD is likely to > cost us a native port of this superior browser and e-mail client. According > to an employee of Opera software, Cutting to the bone thru all the BS this thread has generated I have a simple solution: don't download or buy Opera. And quit bitching about it. I might bother to download StarOffice one day if/when they do a native FreeBSD version. But in the meantime the compatibility issues between StarOffice and the FreeBSD Linux emulation has kept me away and will continue to keep me away until something tilts the balance causing me to *need* StarOffice. They missed the boat back when I didn't need it but would have tried it. As long as Applixware was not FreeBSD native, I stayed away. Backordered the native version shortly after it was announced. Stayed backordered for something like 16 months before it arrived. I waited. WordPerfect 8.0 wasn't a big pain under Linux emulation. I've used it a number of times (while waiting for Applixware) to write nasty letters to the fool CD "club" I'm a member of. Finally won that battle after a year when they finally diverted a human's attention to my account and actually read my letters and examined the photocopies of statements I included. I bought VirtualPC for my Macintosh specifically for the purpose of hosting Microchip's MPLAB development environment for their PIC microcontrollers. MPLAB is freeware. I will not *buy* software to run under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. Did I see a 68k MacPlus emulator in the ports the other day? Hmmm... Maybe I should fire that up and see if Nisus and Eudora for the Mac runs under FreeBSD now.... -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 21:25: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111B537B563; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 62EA11C70; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:24:57 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Brett Glass , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will > always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a > prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just > love it! We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org 1. "If you don't distribute source, we'll make it so you can't distribute a binary." sounds to me an awful like "If you don't make a FreeBSD port, we'll rip out the emulation layer that allows your software to work." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 21:44:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 791CC37BA0F for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23212 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 04:44:10 -0000 Received: from du74.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.74) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 04:44:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3966B177.805696E4@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:43:35 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, > application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality > commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native > API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native > code. If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will not be using their products with the Linux layer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 7 23:23:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F058537B7FC; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA58661; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:16:21 +0200." <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:23:26 -0700 Message-ID: <58658.963037406@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which > Linux created. > > Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that > FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. > Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and > support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). I think you should stop trying to talk sense to Brett. As we've already seen in this thread, it just doesn't do any good and he only becomes even more strident and less connected to reality as the thread unwinds. Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. At that point, the rest of us would actually have to agree that yes, despite all odds, he'd been right all along and How About That. However, Brett being Brett, he's not going to do that, he's just going to continue to assert the validity of his own unique arguments with no proof and, when nobody comes forward who's willing to implement all this code for him just because he says it's a good idea, he'll let the topic die down again until he feels up to another rant on the topic. I think Pons and Fleishman demonstrated a similar aptitude for good science and demonstrable claims with their Cold Fusion research a decade or so back. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 1:11: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus.users.xmission.com [204.228.152.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB0237B7F4 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from magus@magus.users.xmission.com) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA36768 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:12:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:12:31 -0600 From: Anthony Chavez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD v. Unix Message-ID: <20000708021231.B36356@magus.users.xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Fellow advocates: I don't remember where exactly, but I have seen FreeBSD referred to as the "last true Unix." Is this a wholly accurate description? Would it be correct to refer to *BSD in such a manner? Thanks, Anthony -- magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Too much is always better than not enough. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 1:21:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF3537B5B8 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12380; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:49:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:49:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Anthony Chavez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD v. Unix Message-ID: <20000708174937.J11249@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000708021231.B36356@magus.users.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000708021231.B36356@magus.users.xmission.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 8 July 2000 at 2:12:31 -0600, Anthony Chavez wrote: > Fellow advocates: > > I don't remember where exactly, but I have seen FreeBSD referred to as > the "last true Unix." Is this a wholly accurate description? No. I don't think it's even partially accurate for any reasonable definition of "partially". Recall that it shares no code with AT&T UNIX up to and including the Seventh Edition. > Would it be correct to refer to *BSD in such a manner? No. In fact, we don't want to refer to "*BSD" at all: it sounds divisive. BSD without the '*' looks a lot better. As to "the last true UNIX": that way Holy Wars lie. I've most often heard it applied to the Seventh Edition. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 6:42: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3208D37BC46; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 06:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68DfZF05179; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85881; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:57:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:57:26 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Brett Glass , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708145726.H35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000707 20:00], Ignacio Cristerna (ignacioc@avantel.net) wrote: >I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will >always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a >prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just >love it! Then go `pester' Opera with requests for native support. With emphasis on the native part. If you are not going to let yourself be heard outside of freebsd-advocacy, you will never reach what you want. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Joy comes, grief goes, we know not how... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 6:42: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29C537BE3D; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68DfcF05182; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85874; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:54:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:53:54 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708145354.G35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:37:42AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Brett talking to Jordan] -On [20000707 12:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >That's it. You're setting things up so that they will >NOT develop for FreeBSD; in fact, you're stacking the deck >against it. [snip] >>This is the classic delusional mindset at work. > >I see: Anyone who does not agree with you must of course be >"delusional," even if his model of the world has accurately >predicted events and yours has not. I guess that the earth >is flat and the sun revolves around it, too. Brett, I always believed you were a rational person to talk with, but given your above comments I just have to say this: Go see a mental health specialist. *plonk* -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project I believe because it is impossible... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:33: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB3F37B7CD for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68GWqS27102; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08703; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08699; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: Anthony Chavez , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD v. Unix In-Reply-To: <20000708174937.J11249@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > As to "the last true UNIX": that way Holy Wars lie. I've most often > heard it applied to the Seventh Edition. I've heard it recently applied to NetBSD (not sure why) and OpenBSD (minimalist approach). J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:34:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08DB37BEC2; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04305; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:19:47 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 :Windows))) Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39667888.3F79E5E9@softweyr.com> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:40 PM 7/7/2000, Wes Peters wrote: >> I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long >> time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their >> developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce >> development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux >> and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for >> the foreseeable future. > >Which presents absolutely no problems to the user of the software. Yes it does. "Defectors" who buy binaries targeted for another platform and run them under emulation will appear on the marketing radar screen as users of that other platform, making their own platform seem to have a smaller user base by comparison. And by eliminating themselves from the set of potential customers for a native port, they reduce the incentive to create one. They're undermining their own platform. Use of an emulator should be reserved for emergencies only. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:34:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD2137BE20; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04294; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:09:54 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:16 PM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to >appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this >is essential to the debate you wish to carry. To me, performing that mapping (with thunking in some places!) is what I would consider to be emulation. Granted, it is a "light" form of emulation, since the APIs are close. In any case, the discussion here doesn't hinge on what one calls this facility. I think you'll agree that WHATEVER it's called (call it a Frobnicator if you'd like), the effect on the availability of natively compiled applications is the same. (And whatever you call it, if you tout it as being especially efficient at running Linux binaries, this will make developers MORE likely to tell FreeBSD users to run their Linux versions rather than porting their software.) >With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which >Linux created. Any "riding of the hype" which has occurred has been, IMHO, utterly independent of the existence of the Frobnicator. The people who I see switching are using FreeBSD as an Internet server and are not, as a rule, running desktop or commercial applications. My clients who run such things as office suites (e.g. Corel Office) are sticking to the OSes for which they are natively compiled so that they can get support. >Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that >FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. >Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and >support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). I am making an effort to generate those mentions and create that support, and so are others. But FreeBSD is not even really at the status of "second fiddle" yet; it's more like "third viola." >We are here, we are demanding our portion of the marketshare, there's no >denying us. You cannot "demand" market share. Rather, you must offer things of value. And one of the most important things of value -- the thing that has historically proven to make or break a platform -- is native application support. >Now tell me again, how did the linuxulator hurt us again? By encouraging developers to support only Linux. It's Linux on the box; Linux in the ad; Linux on the support line. "Oh, you're running FreeBSD? Sorry, Sir, but the box says 'Linux.' If you're trying to run it on something else, we can't provide you with tech support." >Companies >will always work according to the demand/supply principle, so the >userbase needs to, politely, ask Opera to release a _native_ port. "Asking politely" does not constitute demand. PAYING CUSTOMERS constitute demand. Now, without emulation, those customers have clout equal to their numbers times the price of the product. But with emulation, this clout is diminished by the number of "defectors" who are willing to run the non-native binary. Worse still, the vendor can't tell who bought the product to run it under emulation. So the marketing numbers show sales onto the emulated platform as larger than they should be. And the number of users who want the native port therefore seems smaller. It's a vicious effect: ALL of the incentives run against the native port. >We pulled this off with Oracle (IIRC) and we also amassed tons of votes >for a native JDK and for more products, and we got them and/or are >getting them. Maybe. But will they deliver? And will they support it for more than one version? I am hoping that we can keep Applixware and Xi Graphics. (As you may recall, a representative of Xi Graphics told me emphatically that they were "dropping all support for BSD" about half a year ago. It turned out that she was mistaken and they were dropping BSD/OS only, but it this is still not a good thing -- especially as BSD/OS and FreeBSD move closer together.) Bottom line: the Linuxulator/Frobnicator/Prognosticator/Whatever is hurting the platform. I've proposed a strategy to counter this. Shall we take action? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:34:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9668C37C086; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04298; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211017.04804550@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:13:14 -0600 To: Will Andrews , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707155808.J10303@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:58 PM 7/7/2000, Will Andrews wrote: >We could document which Linux syscalls should be changed into what BSD >syscalls, to ease the job of porting. "Porting kits" are good if they are well supported. A badly supported one can drive vendors away. Microsoft offered a porting kit that allowed Windows apps to be ported to OS/2, but it was so bad that it actually discouraged and delayed ports. (Micrografx did a good one, so Microsoft bludgeoned them into dropping it by threatening to destroy their business. This shows that they thought it was a real threat.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:43:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5C037B87B; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04424; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:43:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104111.051b45a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:43:35 -0600 To: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <200007080249.VAA26069@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:49 PM 7/7/2000, David Kelly wrote: >I will not *buy* software to run >under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I >will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of >Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then >its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. Good for you! If more people adopt these practices, we may get native ports. -Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:52:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266B637BFBE; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04501; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:52:13 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola , Ignacio Cristerna From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill, if you really believe that insisting upon native ports is an "FSF-like" tactic, you clearly have no sense of how to do advocacy, nor do you fathom the nastiness of the FSF. --Brett Glass At 10:24 PM 7/7/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: >We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. > >We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you >are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:54:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0EF37C0B8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04518; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:53:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:53:55 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3966B177.805696E4@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:43 PM 7/7/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, >> application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality >> commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native >> API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native >> code. > >If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support >will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will >not be using their products with the Linux layer. Two problems: 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). 2) Whether it is true or not, developers will use it as an excuse not to do a port to another platform. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 9:56:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCF137B5B7; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04548; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:56:12 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <58658.963037406@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 10:51:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0A237B64A; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA41640; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:15 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he > >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was > >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going > >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he > >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing > >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. > > Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? > cc:-ing me in this thread has been needless for some time, but iirc, jordan definately had a role in getting aplixware to freebsd.... and this is just one example > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 11:25:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EBA37B704; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68IPH712159; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA86871; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:14 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708202514.N35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <58658.963037406@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:56:12AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000708 20:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: > >Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? He did. I am waiting, for quite some time now, to see your accomplishments on this matter. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Is there a place deep within, a place where you hide your darkest Sins..? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 11:25:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B8C37B88C for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68IPG712156; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA86864; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:23:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:23:46 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:09:54PM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000708 20:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 01:16 PM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >I think you'll agree that WHATEVER it's called (call it a Frobnicator >if you'd like), the effect on the availability of natively compiled >applications is the same. No, I do not agree. >>With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which >>Linux created. > >Any "riding of the hype" which has occurred has been, IMHO, utterly >independent of the existence of the Frobnicator. The people who I see >switching are using FreeBSD as an Internet server and are not, as a rule, >running desktop or commercial applications. My clients who run such things >as office suites (e.g. Corel Office) are sticking to the OSes for which >they are natively compiled so that they can get support. Brett, I seriously wonder if you even have been exposed to people using FreeBSD as desktop. Here at the ISP I work for we use FreeBSD as primary server platform, but almost all techs run it as well for their desktop and a couple of helpdeskers multiboot. And that's just our company, I know of a lot which are like this. At home I use FreeBSD only. Both for my servers as well as my desktop. Don't assume that just because YOUR clients are NOT doing it implies that NOBODY is doing that. >>Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that >>FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. >>Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and >>support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). > >I am making an effort to generate those mentions and create that support, >and so are others. But FreeBSD is not even really at the status of >"second fiddle" yet; it's more like "third viola." Then I really have no idea who you have been spending time with lately, but I am listening to Bruch performed by a whole orchestra. >>We are here, we are demanding our portion of the marketshare, there's no >>denying us. > >You cannot "demand" market share. Rather, you must offer things of value. >And one of the most important things of value -- the thing that has >historically proven to make or break a platform -- is native application >support. Yes you can demand marketshare. I hope I really don't have to explain that all. >>We pulled this off with Oracle (IIRC) and we also amassed tons of votes >>for a native JDK and for more products, and we got them and/or are >>getting them. > >Maybe. But will they deliver? And will they support it for more than >one version? I am hoping that we can keep Applixware and Xi Graphics. >(As you may recall, a representative of Xi Graphics told me emphatically >that they were "dropping all support for BSD" about half a year ago. >It turned out that she was mistaken and they were dropping BSD/OS only, >but it this is still not a good thing -- especially as BSD/OS and >FreeBSD move closer together.) Hey, Xi's loss. Plain and simple. Applixware is already in a new FreeBSD beta stage for what I know (little imps tend to tell me these things). A colleague of mine, and some friends have been having some good talks with Oracle and it all looks promising on that front. >Bottom line: the Linuxulator/Frobnicator/Prognosticator/Whatever is >hurting the platform. I've proposed a strategy to counter this. Shall >we take action? You go ahead, have this spare soapbox, I am going to do much more interesting things instead. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project The only thing we have to fear is Fear itself... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 11:52:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B409337BA2B; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05164; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:52:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708124338.050d4f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:58 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:45 AM 7/8/2000, Narvi wrote: >cc:-ing me in this thread has been needless for some time, but iirc, >jordan definately had a role in getting aplixware to freebsd.... I'm sure he did. Alas, such victories are not only hard won and expensive but also precarious. Applixware might not continue support in the future, though I certainly hope they will. To make the case for native FreeBSD development compelling, we need leverage. That's why developing FreeBSD ABI compatibility for Linux (not to mention other OSes!) is important. And this is where I'm asking Jordan to invest some effort in, and support, the development of the portable FreeBSD ABI. If he does not participate and/or discourages it, he will not have the right to claim the idea is invalid, since (after all) he will have effectively prevented it from being tested. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 12: 1:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36ED637BA2B for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05230; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:01:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:01:20 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:23 PM 7/8/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>I think you'll agree that WHATEVER it's called (call it a Frobnicator >>if you'd like), the effect on the availability of natively compiled >>applications is the same. > >No, I do not agree. Please explain what you do believe, and why. >Brett, I seriously wonder if you even have been exposed to people using >FreeBSD as desktop. Oh, not at all. I only support half a dozen firms with BSD workstations, but I guess that does not count. ;-) > Here at the ISP I work for we use FreeBSD as >primary server platform, but almost all techs run it as well for their >desktop and a couple of helpdeskers multiboot. Good for you! >Don't assume that just because YOUR clients are NOT doing it implies >that NOBODY is doing that. Don't assume that my clients aren't doing it. They are, but they are getting pretty frustrated with the lack of non-native ports and one is demanding that I switch them to Linux. >>You cannot "demand" market share. Rather, you must offer things of value. >>And one of the most important things of value -- the thing that has >>historically proven to make or break a platform -- is native application >>support. > >Yes you can demand marketshare. I hope I really don't have to explain >that all. There are only two organizations which are brazen enough to "demand" market share. One is Microsoft, which is expert at strongarming OEMs into installing nothing else (or, since the DoJ decision, telling them to give token support to other OSes but still requiring them to sell a certain percentage of Windows machines or face unfavorable pricing). The other is the FSF, which is attempting to run everyone else out of business. Short of the deplorable strongarm tactics of these two players, one cannot "demand" market share. >>Maybe. But will they deliver? And will they support it for more than >>one version? I am hoping that we can keep Applixware and Xi Graphics. >>(As you may recall, a representative of Xi Graphics told me emphatically >>that they were "dropping all support for BSD" about half a year ago. >>It turned out that she was mistaken and they were dropping BSD/OS only, >>but it this is still not a good thing -- especially as BSD/OS and >>FreeBSD move closer together.) > >Hey, Xi's loss. Plain and simple. No, it's the platform's loss. XFree86 simply isn't adequate for many systems, and only with XiG can you get things such as multi-head support (essential for programmers). >Applixware is already in a new FreeBSD beta stage for what I know >(little imps tend to tell me these things). Let's hope they ship and keep shipping. >>Bottom line: the Linuxulator/Frobnicator/Prognosticator/Whatever is >>hurting the platform. I've proposed a strategy to counter this. Shall >>we take action? > >You go ahead, have this spare soapbox, I am going to do much more >interesting things instead. The things that are best for the platform are not necessarily the most interesting technically, alas. But in order to preserve the playground, one must pick up the trash.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 12: 6:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3177937B704; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05254; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:06:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708130258.04ed94e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:05:54 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708202514.N35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> <58658.963037406@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:25 PM 7/8/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >I am waiting, for quite some time now, to see your accomplishments on >this matter. I gues you're not looking. Besides being singlehandedly responsible for the adoption of FreeBSD by several major corporations, I am behind the development of several new BSD_based products and have established a BSD track at the O'Reilly conference. You can support the latter effort by attending and/or manning a booth for one of the BSDs. (I understand that OpenBSD is looking for people to do booth duty.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 12:50:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A11737B58C for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 530209B37; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:50:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:50:44 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708145044.B45928@spawn.nectar.com> References: <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:01:20PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:01:20PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > No, it's the platform's loss. XFree86 simply isn't adequate for many > systems, and only with XiG can you get things such as multi-head support > (essential for programmers). Stop smoking crack. I've been running multi-headed for half a year now, and not ``with XiG''. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 13:33:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB2537B9ED for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05734; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:32:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708142934.0448d6e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:32:50 -0600 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708145044.B45928@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:50 PM 7/8/2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: >Stop smoking crack. I've been running multi-headed for half a year now, >and not ``with XiG''. With what? Solaris? I've never gotten multi-head support working with FreeBSD except under AcceleratedX. Their laptop support also covers machines with which XFree86 simply will not work. They're a valuable asset. Of course, if you want to see one less native port, go ahead and discourage them.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 14: 0:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05FC37BD5D for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 171779B37; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:00:08 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708160008.A46112@spawn.nectar.com> References: <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> <20000708145044.B45928@spawn.nectar.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708142934.0448d6e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708142934.0448d6e0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 02:32:50PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 02:32:50PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >Stop smoking crack. I've been running multi-headed for half a year now, > >and not ``with XiG''. > > With what? Solaris? Uh, no. FreeBSD 3.x/4.x with XFree86 3.9.x, and FreeBSD 4.x with XFree86 4.x. > I've never gotten multi-head support working with FreeBSD except under > AcceleratedX. Their laptop support also covers machines with which > XFree86 simply will not work. You just claimed multi-head ``will not work''. Why should anyone pay attention to this claim? > They're a valuable asset. Of course, if you want to see one less > native port, go ahead and discourage them.... Personally I would not pick a commercial product over an open source product, when the latter meets my needs. And sometimes in other cases I will not, i.e. I _wanted_ multi-head a year ago, but I didn't want to buy into XiG (it seemed to me that they weren't really behind the FreeBSD offering). On the other hand, though I'm a long time LaTeX user, nowadays I do a lot of stuff with the FreeBSD native Applixware (if it is less than a few pages). Besides, my point was simply that you should stop smoking crack and making wild claims with absolutely nothing to back them up. I don't expect you to stop, though-- you've been doing that for at least the past 8 years that I've known of you. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 14: 3:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10BF37BD33 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1DBB79B37; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:03:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:03:10 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708160309.C46112@spawn.nectar.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> <20000708202346.M35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708125224.04edae10@localhost> <20000708145044.B45928@spawn.nectar.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708142934.0448d6e0@localhost> <20000708160008.A46112@spawn.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000708160008.A46112@spawn.nectar.com>; from n@nectar.com on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:00:08PM -0500 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:00:08PM -0500, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > >Stop smoking crack. > you should stop smoking crack Apologies to actual crack smokers, who probably have enough sense not to indulge in this thread. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 14: 7: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A8F7A37BDA8 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 12495 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 21:07:05 -0000 Received: from du69.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.69) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 21:07:05 -0000 Message-ID: <396797DA.9D3CAEA7@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:06:34 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:43 PM 7/7/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >Brett Glass wrote: > >> > >> I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, > >> application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality > >> commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native > >> API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native > >> code. > > > >If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support > >will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will > >not be using their products with the Linux layer. > > Two problems: > > 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux binary support. > 2) Whether it is true or not, developers will use it as an excuse > not to do a port to another platform. If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development resources. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 15:31: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6162837B51A; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06419; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:30:42 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <396797DA.9D3CAEA7@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:06 PM 7/8/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >> 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). > >If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux >binary support. I should have made myself more clear. It may not be generally true that FreeBSD users will avoid running the Linux binary under emulation. And every one that DOES run the Linux under emulation provides a sixfold reward to the developer for NOT doing the port: a) S/he saved the trouble of creating a new SKU; b) S/he saved the expense of stocking inventory of that SKU; c) S/he saved the non-recurring cost of engineering the port; d) S/he can devote scarce engineering resources to a different port (i.e. to a platform where emulation was not available); d) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with supporting the port; and e) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with marketing the port. >If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some >other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. See the six factors above. >I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support >does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that >the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. I did not say that the absence of such support would cause the ports to be made. One still must conquer what Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson called the "applications barrier to entry." However, without an emulator, market forces would have their chance to work in favor of the port as the installed base increased. Having emulation short-circuits them. >There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development >resources. Indeed; see above. It doesn't sound as if we disagree here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 15:41:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55D137B594; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivea10.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.32]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08850; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3967ADC5.1DDE73DA@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:40:05 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've stayed out of this, but read the posts for a long time, but now you've said something that undermines your own position. Brett Glass wrote: > Yes it does. "Defectors" who buy binaries targeted for another platform and > run them under emulation will appear on the marketing radar screen as > users of that other platform, making their own platform seem to have a > smaller user base by comparison. So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? > And by eliminating themselves from the > set of potential customers for a native port, they reduce the incentive > to create one. They're undermining their own platform. > Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. > Use of an emulator should be reserved for emergencies only. > > --Brett Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, and continue my line of thinking... Unless of course you're a Linux user, then you should use a FreeBSD "emulator" because Brett Glass, who has FreeBSD in mind and *wants* to decrease the Linux market share, tells you to. Are you even listening yourself? You've managed to contradict yourself so many times that you no longer hold ANY position. And before you go to undermine my credibility, I'll beat you to the punch. I just got out of HS, I'll go to college in the fall, and you know a lot more about FreeBSD, CS, and the business than I do. That said, I still know some logic. I'm curious how you'll talk your way out of this one. I've been reading many FreeBSD lists, and it would seem that if you want a piece of code the way to get it is to find other who want it and then write it. Arguing with people who don't need or want your code is pointless. If you believe in this cause, go write your FreeBSD emulator. Otherwise stop filling my mailbox with nonsense. PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: "I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off several other lists as well for the very same reason. And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." When I read these words I couldn't quite understand what would make *everything* from a single person be the equivalent of commit logs on subjects that don't interest a person. Having read this thread, I think I understand why Brett qualifies for this treatment. Hoping that this is worth a little more than 2 cents, -- Laurence Berland <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.....But I'd still like wine around. http://stuy.debate.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 16: 4:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE8137B6E7 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from thebomb.city-guide.com (unverified [216.3.179.5]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:15:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:18:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Lynch X-Sender: lynch@thebomb.city-guide.com To: Chris Lynch Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opera, Linux Emulation, and the nasties... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I run FreeBSD as my Desktop at home. I run FreeBSD only on Servers at > work. > I am stuck with NT until my new box comes in, my FreeBSD box was > cannabalised > during a corporate split( NT admins REALLY are A$$holes, no Joke...unlike > overly stressed Unix Admins, hehe) > I always try the FreeBSD native port when I want something. I also will > try > the Linux port, dropping the developers a friendly reminder that their > particular product would run better on FreeBSD. I usually end the email > with > "it's Ok, everyone confuses Linux with FreeBSD." I meant confuses FreeBSD with Linux. See now I am confused. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 17:57:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A02037B710; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07303; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:56:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:56:29 -0600 To: Laurence Berland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3967ADC5.1DDE73DA@confusion.net> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native >support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, >so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? Because they will mistake it for a feature. >Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux >has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine >Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. >Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the >linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or >before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, I have said nothing of the kind. You obviously haven't read my earlier messages, in which I have presented an exit strategy for emulation. >and continue my line of thinking... Which has now completely run off the rails, so what followed [Snip!] is unrelated to what I've said. . Please read what I have written before commenting. >PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: >"I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could >not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off >several other lists as well for the very same reason. > >And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null >by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my >screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand >likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go >the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." Talk about closed-minded! I'm afraid that this shows that PHK -- besides being rude -- may want to filter out any message containing ideas which are thought- provoking or which he does not already believe. Sad, as well as an unwarranted personal attack. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 18:42:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BB037BDC8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivea10.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.32]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22864; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:41:04 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: > > >So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native > >support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, > >so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think > >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform > >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be > >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? > > Because they will mistake it for a feature. At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, and at worst it's an insult to the intelligence of Linux users. Just because they don't prefer the OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is if we can show them real gain through its use. If nothing else, this is a chicken-and-egg problem. They wont want it until they can run FreeBSD apps that dont have linux ports, which wont exist until they use the FreeBSD emulator, which they won't get until the apps exist... > > >Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux > >has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine > >Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. > > They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. Fragmentation is irrelevant, you say using emulation undermines the credibility of the host OS, and Linux users don't want to undermine Linux any more than you want to undermine FreeBSD. Hence, they will not use FreeBSD emulation. If, on the other hand, emulation is useful, then they might use it. I think the linuxulator is pretty useful, but you think it's bad. > > >Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the > >linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or > >before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, > > I have said nothing of the kind. You obviously haven't read my earlier > messages, in which I have presented an exit strategy for emulation. The closest reference to an exit strategy I could find in any of your posts is " 3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good." which seems to be utopian. Further, it implies that there will never be a situation where such emulation is useful, in an emergency. I doubt there are tons of people using the SVR4 emulation, but it's kept because it can prove useful for emergerncies or with legacy software. Further, using your own theories, we would have to eliminate the linuxulator or there'd still be no reason to make bsd native ports instead of linux ones. Given the larger user base linux has, a developer would probably still develop natively for linux, as it allows more ppl to use the software *without* an added package. Simply creating a FreeBSD emulator would not be sufficient. The only way we'll get native ports from people who simply cant find the resources to do both linux and bsd ports would be to have a larger user base than linux. I'd love for that to happen, but it's gonna take time, and we can't force it to occur prematurely by *eliminating* a useful feature. > > >and continue my line of thinking... > > Which has now completely run off the rails, so what followed [Snip!] > is unrelated to what I've said. . Please read what I have written > before commenting. > I've gone back and read the portion of my email that you've snipped out, and I don't see what about it is unrelated. If you can provide a motive for linux users to prefer freebsd emulated software to native ports, other than "Brett Glass says so" and "they'll think it's a feature," I'm all ears. > >PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: > >"I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could > >not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off > >several other lists as well for the very same reason. > > > >And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null > >by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my > >screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand > >likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go > >the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." > > Talk about closed-minded! > > I'm afraid that this shows that PHK -- besides being rude -- may > want to filter out any message containing ideas which are thought- > provoking or which he does not already believe. Sad, as well as > an unwarranted personal attack. > > --Brett While I'm not sure which of your previous tirades caused PHK to black hole you, I think that this thread might be as good a reason as any. Most of your emails return to insulting the "close minded nature" of people who disagree with you. Your answer to Jordan's reasoned emails include some logical leaps, and professions of his "delusional" nature. If you might answer things logically, and back up counterlogical assertions with some sort of warrant, then you might be able to have a real conversation. The fact that you appear to be unable to act in a civilized manner is why you find yourself in the alienated position you do. And I will repeat my earlier statement. "If you believe in this cause, go write your FreeBSD emulator. Otherwise stop filling my mailbox with nonsense." I've said about all I have to say, so unless your reply to this makes some real claims and discusses the issues, I'm done writing on this thread. -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 20:58:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9609337BF73; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14501; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:26:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:26:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Laurence Berland Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 8 July 2000 at 21:41:04 -0400, Laurence Berland wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: >> At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >> >>> So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native >>> support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, >>> so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think >>> for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >>> of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >>> fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? >> >> Because they will mistake it for a feature. > > At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, and at worst it's an insult > to the intelligence of Linux users. Just because they don't prefer the > OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see > this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is > if we can show them real gain through its use. If nothing else, this is > a chicken-and-egg problem. They wont want it until they can run FreeBSD > apps that dont have linux ports, which wont exist until they use the > FreeBSD emulator, which they won't get until the apps exist... > >>> Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux >>> has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine >>> Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. >> >> They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. > > Fragmentation is irrelevant, you say using emulation undermines the > credibility of the host OS, and Linux users don't want to undermine > Linux any more than you want to undermine FreeBSD. Hence, they will not > use FreeBSD emulation. If, on the other hand, emulation is useful, then > they might use it. I think the linuxulator is pretty useful, but you > think it's bad. Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 21: 5:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8D537BFD8 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12299 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Darren Henderson To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <3966B177.805696E4@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, > > application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality > > commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native > > API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native > > code. > > If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support > will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will > not be using their products with the Linux layer. I don't know if that is generally true but I hope it is. I certainly won't purchase linux software from a vendor. Actually I won't/haven't installed the api conversion layer. I've simply seen no need for it. If Opera produces a native FreeBSD version of their product I would quite likely buy it. Until then however I have plenty of options without having to resort to running the linux version. While I don't buy the extremes of the argument I suspect that the presence of the conversion layer is some what of a deterent to vendors producing native versions of their wares. However I doubt many of them would produce a FreeBSD version even if the conversion layer wasn't there. I think Linux probably has more of a workstation image and BSD more of a server image. Why produce a wordprocessor (for example) for a market that is mainly populated with servers, (in their eyes)? ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 22:17: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3C637B566; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:16:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08641; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:16:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:16:30 -0600 To: Laurence Berland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:41 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >> >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >> >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >> >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? >> >> Because they will mistake it for a feature. > >At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, Why? It appears that many FreeBSD users have. >and at worst it's an insult to the intelligence of Linux users. If so, then you must believe FreeBSD users not to be intelligent. > Just because they don't prefer the >OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see >this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is >if we can show them real gain through its use. Again, you miss the point. It is developers who will see great advantage in using the emulation and are likely to adopt it. >Fragmentation is irrelevant, It is very relevant. A common API and a common ABI are a solution to the fragmentation problems which are beginning to plague the plethora of Linux distributions. >The closest reference to an exit strategy I could find in any of your >posts is " >3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for >UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good." which seems to be >utopian. It is not utopian at all. Developers WANT a single ABI and API so that they can limit the number of binaries they have to build and the number of SKUs they must carry. They will rally around this. The rest of your message is an insulting ad hominem attack and not worthy of a reply. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 22:22: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7980137B6F5; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:22:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08677; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:21:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:21:41 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:56 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your >arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more >interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. Sorry, Greg, but I don't "put down" "Linux people." I am strident in my criticism of the FSF because (as I think you will agree) it deserves it. The FSF is an unethical attempt at empire building -- a vindictive and destructive political agenda masquerading as a "charity." Linux, qua Linux, is not a bad thing. However, because it furthers the FSF's destructive agenda it is important that it not dominate. >Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? Which ones? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 22:26:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876D537B6EB; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15185; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:56:18 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:56:18 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709145618.D14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 8 July 2000 at 23:21:41 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:56 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your >> arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more >> interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. > > Sorry, Greg, but I don't "put down" "Linux people." I am strident > in my criticism of the FSF because (as I think you will agree) > it deserves it. I wonder why you would think that. > The FSF is an unethical attempt at empire building -- a vindictive > and destructive political agenda masquerading as a "charity." As you say. > Linux, qua Linux, is not a bad thing. However, because it furthers > the FSF's destructive agenda it is important that it not dominate. > >> Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? > > Which ones? Sorry, I thought you claimed to have some. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 22:33:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5ED937BC01; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08739; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:33:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708233041.049d1e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:33:22 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709145618.D14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:26 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? >> >> Which ones? > >Sorry, I thought you claimed to have some. Thanks much. Are you being obtuse, or did you intentionally misconstrue what I said? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:18: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6446437B549 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23059 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 06:17:57 -0000 Received: from du37.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.37) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 06:17:57 -0000 Message-ID: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 02:17:22 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:06 PM 7/8/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > > >> 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). > > > >If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux > >binary support. > > I should have made myself more clear. It may not be generally true > that FreeBSD users will avoid running the Linux binary under > emulation. And every one that DOES run the Linux under emulation > provides a sixfold reward to the developer for NOT doing the port: > > a) S/he saved the trouble of creating a new SKU; > b) S/he saved the expense of stocking inventory of that SKU; > c) S/he saved the non-recurring cost of engineering the port; > d) S/he can devote scarce engineering resources to a different port > (i.e. to a platform where emulation was not available); > d) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with supporting the port; > > and > > e) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with marketing the port. > > >If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some > >other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. > > See the six factors above. So the absence of Linux binary support will not necessarily mean more native ports, and will mean that programs that don't have native ports will not run. Which means fewer applications for FreeBSD. Which means fewer users for FreeBSD. Which means fewer native ports for FreeBSD. ... > >I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support > >does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that > >the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. > > I did not say that the absence of such support would cause the ports > to be made. One still must conquer what Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson > called the "applications barrier to entry." However, without an > emulator, market forces would have their chance to work in favor of > the port as the installed base increased. Having emulation > short-circuits them. But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to produce native ports. In a previous post you gave two reasons for considering Linux versions unsuitable: 1) lack of support, and 2) lack of performance/quality. 1) If a vendor can't or won't provide resources to support Linux versions on FreeBSD, it almost certainly can't or won't provide the much greater resources to produce a native FreeBSD port. 2) If a particular Linux binary doesn't run well enough on FreeBSD, then the vendor's decision to make a native port will be the same regardless of the existence of Linux binary support. If the binary does run well enough, it doesn't really matter that it is not native; it gets the job done. Of course a native version would be nice, but it would not be necessary. > >There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development > >resources. > > Indeed; see above. It doesn't sound as if we disagree here. We draw very different conclusions from the same facts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:22: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B74437B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA64325; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:56:12 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: <64322.963123734@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he > >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was > >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going > >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he > >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing > >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. > > Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? Give me a break, Brett - this isn't my crusade to prove a point, its yours and thus up to YOU to put the effort into it. Your mouth is the one in sore need of currency here, not mine, and if you want to establish any credibility here at all, you'll stop shooting it off and start actually doing everything I noted above. Stop dissembling and get off your ass. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:25:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E0337BB72; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA64381; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:58 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000708124338.050d4f00@localhost> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:26:16 -0700 Message-ID: <64378.963123976@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > To make the case for native FreeBSD development compelling, we > need leverage. That's why developing FreeBSD ABI compatibility > for Linux (not to mention other OSes!) is important. And this > is where I'm asking Jordan to invest some effort in, and support, > the development of the portable FreeBSD ABI. I have no idea why you're asking me to do it - I don't even agree with your fundamental premises and find your whole "logic" here to be a house of cards. If you want effort and support to go into this, you can do it YOURSELF! How's that for a new concept? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:27:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFEE37B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C7C921C6C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:27:33 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000709022733.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:52:13AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:52:13AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Bill, if you really believe that insisting upon native ports > is an "FSF-like" tactic, you clearly have no sense of how to > do advocacy, nor do you fathom the nastiness of the FSF. % Insist \In*sist"\, v. i. % 1. To stand or rest; to find support; -- with in, on, or % upon. [R.] --Ray. % 2. To take a stand and refuse to give way; to hold to % something firmly or determinedly; to be persistent, % urgent, or pressing; to persist in demanding; -- followed % by on, upon, or that; as, he insisted on these conditions; 3. To rip out existing support in the hopes that by pissing of existing users and break working support you will get want you want. See: sulk > At 10:24 PM 7/7/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > >We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. > > > >We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you > >are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. Brett, Thanks for not quoting the part of the message that makes my comment clearer. Because my mail archives and mailer still work, I'll provide it: > > "If you don't distribute source, we'll make it so you > > can't distribute a binary." > > sounds to me an awful like > > "If you don't make a FreeBSD port, we'll rip out the emulation > > layer that allows your software to work." I called the _tactics_ FSF-like, not the _goal_. If you spent half of your time actually doing work, providing code, writing documentation, sending patches, or just about anything other then calling for nuclear war against vendors, that would leave only half your time to be spent making an ass of yourself. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:31:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9062437B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:30:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:31:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to > produce native ports. > In a previous post you gave two reasons for considering Linux versions > unsuitable: 1) lack of support, and 2) lack of performance/quality. > 1) If a vendor can't or won't provide resources to support Linux > versions on FreeBSD, it almost certainly can't or won't provide the much > greater resources to produce a native FreeBSD port. The really depends upon the resources/reward ratio. In many cases, it's a lot easier to make a FreeBSD native version than try to get everything to work right under emulation. The support headaches are approximately the same either way, at least in my experience. If you're going to officially endorse the use of your Linux build under FreeBSD, you're going to have to support it. > 2) If a particular Linux binary doesn't run well enough on FreeBSD, then > the vendor's decision to make a native port will be the same regardless > of the existence of Linux binary support. If the binary does run well > enough, it doesn't really matter that it is not native; it gets the job > done. Of course a native version would be nice, but it would not be > necessary. What would happen in that case is that the vendor would be in a troubling situation. They'd either have to rescind FreeBSD support (and then refund money to FreeBSD customers and remove a platform from their support list) or make a native build. I know that if my company were faced with that problem, we'd make a native build in a second. (Of course, we already have one, but that's not the point.) The existence of Linux emulation simply gives application developers another way to support BSD. They will pick the one they think is better, based upon considerations of effort required and reward expected to be derived. If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux version on FreeBSD, then that will provide a great stepping stone for getting to real FreeBSD support. Later, with a proven customer base and demonstrated interest, a business case can be made for improving FreeBSD support. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:33:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8180737BFD8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09071; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709002932.04980100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:21 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:17 AM 7/9/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >So the absence of Linux binary support will not necessarily mean more >native ports, and will mean that programs that don't have native ports >will not run. Which means fewer applications for FreeBSD. Which means >fewer users for FreeBSD. Which means fewer native ports for FreeBSD. >... Again, you appear to be intentionally misconstruing or ignoring what I've said in earlier messages. I'm afraid that I can't take the time to educate you about strategies and tactics if you simply can't (or won't) get it. >But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to >produce native ports. Yet again you ignore what I've written. If developers see a common API and ABI which lets them develop for all of the many Linux distros AND FreeBSD, they will jump at the chance to use it. The rest of your message makes the same mistakes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:43:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574D937C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09118; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:43:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004010.049fbe90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:43:00 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <64378.963123976@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:26 AM 7/9/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I have no idea why you're asking me to do it - I don't even agree with >your fundamental premises and find your whole "logic" here to be a >house of cards. If you want effort and support to go into this, you >can do it YOURSELF! How's that for a new concept? Yes, Jordan, it *is* a new concept -- and an ill-advised one. FreeBSD is a team effort, and this should be as well. So far, one person has volunteered help, but more are needed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:43:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0770037C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09113; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:43:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709003340.049d0930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:40:03 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <64322.963123734@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:22 AM 7/9/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Give me a break, Brett - this isn't my crusade to prove a point, No; it appears to be your crusade to quash some valuable insights. >its >yours and thus up to YOU to put the effort into it. Your mouth is the >one in sore need of currency here, not mine, My predictions have been accurate in the past and are being fulfilled here as well. And my efforts to date in the BSD world have been quite effective. Therefore, I daresay I have quite a bit of currency. Why are you attempting to undermine it? > and if you want to >establish any credibility here at all, you'll stop shooting it off and >start actually doing everything I noted above. Stop dissembling and >get off your ass. Er, Jordan, *now* who's advocating being Quixotic? Such an effort requires a team, as I can't exactly afford to quit putting food on the table in order to do it alone. By arguing against the concept you are discouraging people from joining that effort and are thus sabotaging it and making it infeasible to undertake. Again, it appears that you are trying to undermine my heretofore succesful fforts to promote the BSDs. Why? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:47: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032F437C13F; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09153; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004316.04a02220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:46:40 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709022733.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:27 AM 7/9/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > 3. To rip out existing support in the hopes that by pissing > of existing users and break working support you will > get want you want. See: sulk How about: 4. To make existing support for a strategically ill-advised feature unnecessary so that it can be phased out. See: win >Thanks for not quoting the part of the message that makes my comment >clearer. I did you the courtesy of not quoting the part of your message which was a misrepresentation of what I said and served no other purpose than to be insulting and misleading. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 8 23:49: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F43A37C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09168; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:48:46 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:31 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux version on FreeBSD, >then that will provide a great stepping stone for getting to real FreeBSD >support. Later, with a proven customer base and demonstrated interest, a >business case can be made for improving FreeBSD support. Unfortunately, David, they won't know which users are running FreeBSD, and therefore will not be able to quantify that customer base. It is therefore unlikely that their marketers will be able to make a case for the native port. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message